Have something to say? Add it here

View all of the comment room pics here
comment room archive | text-only comment room

Hey, do any of you know what happens to Lex in the future in Timedancer? If you know, mail me! Thanx!
Erin <eringargoyle@hotmail.com>
Fayetteville, AR US
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 10:37:31 PM
IP: 1cust180.tnt1.dfw3.da.uu.net

*opens mouth to comment, closes it, opens again, closes and opens it again a couple of more times before he overcomes his shock enough to speak...*

Why are you insisting that the robed figure in Awakenings I is anyone other than the captain? What possible clues are there? First we see the clan successfully defend the castle from the Vikings. Then, Princess Katharine shows nothing but disdain for them, despite their obvious value to the castle, and the Captain of the Guard (whom, might I add, one of the guards refers to as the "Captain of the Gargoyles") is shamed by her performance after he invited Goliath and Demona in, believing she would see their value. Then, we see a mysterious, cloaked and hooded figure meeting with the Vikings, sabotaging the castle defenses, raising the gates for them. Then, once inside, we finally find the betrayer's identity: that of the Captain. Later quotes:
Hakon: "Why would you betray your own kind?"
Captain: "They're not my kind."

Goliath (to the Captain): "YOU are the betrayer?!"

Later, in City of Stone, we learn that the plan was concocted by the Captain and Demona, after Princess Katharine kicked Goliath and Demona out of the dining hall, and that Demona survived because she didn't risk spending the night at the castle.

Now, does that answer your questions?

(One thing I wish to point out... it couldn't have been Ian, because Ian is an invention of TGS, not a canon character at all. Unless they plan for him to become the Magus.)
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 09:53:01 PM
IP: p02-21.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

(Doug walks in, a big smile on his face.)
Mulan? Yeah, she'd be good, too. Thought we were only talking about TV cartoon women. And in case we're not just talking about human women, let's count Angie, Sata, and Asrial as good role models, too. Not Ariana, though. Most people I know wouldn't like getting hit with a bo stick. Oh well.
On the Captain: Okay, maybe it wasn't him. God knows. Personally, I think it was probably Ian, come back to the castle after a long absence. When the Captain caught him in town, they made a deal. Ian runs errands for the Captain, in return for not going to jail. How's that sound? Very plausible, I think. Now that I've watched the ep again, I know that guy couldn't have been Seth from my fanfics. Too small. The big blonde Viking with the beard, though, that has possibilities.
That's all for now.
(Doug turns to leave, only to be grabbed by a gray gargoyle arm and pulled into a dark corner. A loud voice roars, "Stop calling me Angie!!!!!" Doug is shoved back out of the corner, reeling from the sound. "Gees!" he muses as he walks out. "She gets more like her mother every day.")
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 08:36:40 PM
IP: dd57-032.dub.compuserve.com

I am currently about four or five good movies behind
this summer, already. Mulan, X-Files, Lost in Space,
with Armaggedon and Bruce Willis going to blown up
everything in sight this week. (sigh).
I, too, thought it was the Magus at first, and may be
it still is. He was always putting down the gargoyles, calling them unnatural and stupid beasts.
Maybe he was a willing messanger for the Captain.
Do you realize that there is just enough time, at one
episode a day, two of the short ones, to finish everything in time for the new season of TGS?
Later world.
Theresa <Starsingerk@Webtv.net>
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 08:28:30 PM
IP: proxy-167.iap.bryant.webtv.net

To everyone who thinks it's the Capt.> Excuse me, but there is no way in heck that that skinny little weezing dude in some white cloak is the Captain!! He looks and sounds nothing like 'im!! The first time I saw "Awakening", I thought it was the Magus. ...Then I caught on. Besides, the Captain would be MUCH more likely to hire some dude to relay the message rather than someone wonder were he is during the day! He's an important person in Castle Wyvern. People would notice if left, but would be less to care if some average joe was riding away from the castle. I find it hard to believe that I'm the one who's unobservant here! (However, no offense intended to those who thought my comment was dumb. I had earlier considered the possiblilty of it being the our dear Capt., but ruled that option out after careful reflection.)

Theresa> Have you seen that new movie "Mulan"? I think she's a good female role model.

AotN
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 08:02:23 PM
IP: akron-157-41.sssnet.com

Greetings, all.

I'm having a trouble e-mailing TGS. The link on the page doesn't work -- the addy is supposed to be TGSMail@gargoyles-saga.org, right? When I try to send it I get some error message saying "host server unresolvable" or something. Can anyone help me with this?

Thanks. Clear skies.
Queen Tanika <-tanika-@geocities.com>
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 12:44:47 PM
IP: grmn-105ppp89.epix.net

Todd: I should have known that was the Captain, not anyone else. Oh well, Lady Mystic's post tells the reasons why.
Strong Cartoon Female Role Models: Hmm, Elisa and Fox (the good one) definitely qualify. So much that I can't think of any others. Not from cartoons, anyway. Although I suppose Marge and Lisa Simpson might do as portrayed in certain episodes.
That's all for now!
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 12:26:06 PM
IP: 199.174.204.49

I got that the captain and the hooded figure were the same when I first watched it.

99 days to the Rising?? HOOORAAYY!!!!!!!!
ED
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 08:06:40 AM
IP: p130-penguin-gui.tch.virgin.net

Todd: I knew it was the Captain from the beginning, and I'm sure at least some of us knew too.

To defend us readers and fans: The reason everyone keeps thinking up complicated theories and has long drawn out discussions on matters that are really simple is because there are so many unclarified topics in the Gargoyles Universe. When there is something that we don't catch on we take the harder theories over the simple ones because we've already come across so many intricate situations.
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 07:48:23 AM
IP: 201-234-139.ipt.aol.com

99 days until the Rising.

Come on, you people! It's so obvious that the hooded and robed man in "Awakening Part One" was the Captain of the Guard! He was the one who was betraying the castle to Hakon in the first place! I'm a little amazed that everybody's having to come up with complicated theories about who he was when the answer is so simple and obvious!
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 07:29:50 AM
IP: pn3-ppp-135.primary.net

It wasn't a double post, my reflexes must be getting
better. By the way, do any of you know of anyother
strong female role models out in cartoon land? I'd
like to hear some opinions?
Later
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 06:59:14 AM
IP: proxy-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net

Hi world. On the note of what episode of Gargoyles
did you first come in on> Part II The Awakening.
I was hooked when I saw Elisa. She looked Hispanic
to me at first, then she fell off a building, and then when they were in the park, kicking the goon squads butt. Definitly a major player, not the heros
girlfriend type. When Deadly Force came out and showed Elisa's background as Native American and African American, I was more hooked. I saw her as
a very strong roll model. I live out in the southwest and New Mexico considers it's self a tri-
culture state. By the end of Part IV of The Awakening I was hooked. Not to mention all the voices I recognized.
On the note of what did humans ever to Demona?> For
one thing everyone kept refering to the gargoyles as
"beasts". The Princess in the dinning hall, the Magus (a later episode I believe), again the Archmage. I always believed that the Archmage did something to Demona that hurt her soo deep that she
lost any trust in humans. It was shown in Vows. He
called her a stupid beast and was going to place the
blame on her for the loss of the Phoenix Gate. Somewhere between. Vows and Awakening on the timeline, Demona must have had a major betrayal(s),
whice sent her over the edge in her relations with
humans.
By the way for the record, I am Anglo, and I love a
good roll model for young girls/women.
Also sorry for the double post, furfoots walk the key
board.
Starsinger
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 06:55:33 AM
IP: proxy-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net

Remember me from years ago, when I actually posted? ;)

Sevarius Jr: To answer your very good qs: The Hunter hunted us down. Canmore destroyed the last of us. And finally Goliath butts in.
ED <ed.reynolds@virgin.net>
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 06:08:33 AM
IP: p25-kestrel-gui.tch.virgin.net

(Doug parachutes down from above, narrowly missing the fountain. He breathes a sigh of relief as a loud boom is heard from outside.)
Why is Maeve so mad at me? All I did was make a few prank calls to her office asking if any brain-dead, brainwashed, or genetically warped people were working there and threatening lawsuit based on First Amendment rights if there were. I was only kidding! She didn't have to shoot down my helicopter!!
Okay, that point is moot now. Let's get onto another tack.
AotN- In my stories, that guy who rides to Hakon with the Captain's plan is Seth, Hakon's lieutenant. Read the stories if you want to know about him (Part 2 of Final Hunt reveals all). I doubt that's who TGS will make him but it is plausible he's at least Hakon's lieutenant or some collaborator of the Captain's in betraying the castle. Oh well, that's my two cents on that topic.
David- Your story idea sounds a little intriguing. Post it in the fanfic archive if you still want to write it and I guarentee you'll have at least one person send feedback. Usually, that's all the feedback I get, wish I got more more often (thanks for the bit you always send, Christine).
That's all I have to say about that.
(Doug bundles up his parachute, checks the iron-tipped bullet clip in his Uzi, and walks out, on guard for angry Unseelie all the while.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 12:53:23 AM
IP: hd29-188.hil.compuserve.com

*Pops in again.*

There are a few issues I forgot to cover.

First off, I was watching "Awakening 1" the other day and thought the same question I always have, but have continuously forgotten to voice: Who the heck IS the dude who rides to Hakon, proposing the Captain's plan?!? Is this some obvious thing that has just passed over my head for past few years, or what? Well, you all probably know who it is, so jsut tell me please. ...That is, unless it's one of THOSE. Those little pieces of shows and stories and things that you're never really Supposed to pick up on. *makes a scared face* Dun-Dun DUN! *smiles*

Also, I was checkin' out the All Request Jammin' 92 Party House thing on the radio, and heard "Iris". (Again.) I LOVE that song!! ...Anyway, I was thinking during one of the refrains: "This kinda reminds me of the relationship between humans and gargs. "And I don't want the world to see me, 'cause I don't think that they'd understand..." Call me crazy, but that's what I was thinkin' of.

Sevarius Jr.> *sniff* "The access code is...'Alone'." So dramatic. *sigh*

:) Well, bye and goodnight!

AotN
Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 12:10:19 AM
IP: dialup-103-44.sssnet.com

Hey Lawrence, as far as what the humans have done to Demona...

WHO BETRAYED THE CASTLE TO THE VIKINGS? WHO CREATED THE HUNTER? WHO BETRAYED MACBETH TO CANMORE?

Yeah, I rest my case.
Sevarius Jr.
Seattle , Washington USA
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 11:41:33 PM
IP: client-151-200-126-110.bellatlantic.net

*Leaps in for a moment.*

Lady MYSTIC> Yeah, you know what I mean. It's been a mixed up day for me. And sorry about the name. I hate it when people do that to me, too.

Krysania> Right on! ..Btw, is this the Krys from oHIo?

Well, c ya, people!

*Skips out cheerfully.*
AotN
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 11:41:06 PM
IP: dialup-103-44.sssnet.com

**Coyote emerges from his hidey hole wearing a green and white band uniform, carrying a tenor saxophone under his right arm and swinging his left hand with a beat only he can hear. Suddenly lets out a bloodcurdling howl, then stops cadence.**

Fire Storm: Thank you for proving my point.

I'm interested in seeing other folks' opinions on what it would take to turn Angela bad. I'm betting my uniform that any and all theories will involve one of my five options. Anyone?

(BTW, for all those who don't remember, my five options on why Angela would join her mother:

a) Magic from Demona
b) Something comes between Angela and Goliath
c) Something happens to Angela that makes her question her importance to the clan
d) Combination of the above
e) Genetics

Try me!)

**Resumes his cadence, swinging the horn and his hand again, chanting "Go right thru for MSU/Waaatch the points keep grow-IIIIING ..."***
Coyote the Bando <1134@i-is.com>
Algonac, Michigan
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 08:52:50 PM
IP: modem135.net-ex.com

THE SWORD AND THE CIRCLE - I've got a copy of it in my "Arthurian library", alongside three other Arthurian books by Sutcliffe: "The Light Beyond the Forest" (the Quest of the Holy Grail), "The Road to Camlann" (the fall of Camelot), and "Sword at Sunset" (a very good novel about the historical Arthur). I've also read another book of hers all about Cuchulain entitled "The Hound of Ulster". Her books are very good and are highly recommended by me.
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 07:05:08 PM
IP: pn9-ppp-186.primary.net

*walks in looking around* Hmmmm might have to talk about getting those broken pics fixed....or at least taken off the option board... *shrugs and goes back to her assignments*
Siryn
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 04:42:19 PM
IP: spider-tf022.proxy.aol.com

I'm not insulting anyone at TGS, but I miss the characters.

Okay, for one thing, Angela has been getting on my nerves. She is a great character, but every time Demona shows up, Angela just HAS to get involved. It seems like she is cramping Demona's character. I miss Demona's headstrong, stubborn character. I know Angela is helping her reform, but why does that have to change Demona OVERALL? Why can't she just change her attitude towards humans?

And I agree with AotN in her post a while back. When Brooklyn grew up, he grew up. I miss his easygoing jokes and sarcasm. There's still a trace of it, but it's just not the same. He doesn't have the same spirit as before.
Krystiana <krystiana@geocities.com>
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 03:11:59 PM
IP: akr-romp-57-159.raex.com

I think Demona is reforming with her daughters help. I know she wants to destroy the human race, but look what humans put her through for a thousand years.
The humans destroyed her clan at Castle Wyvern. Then the hunter and his men destroyed her new clan in 1057 A. D. and when she met the clan in Paris in 1793, the humans destroyed that clan also. I bet all of you would feel like Demona if you went through what she did, but she's changing.
Lawrence Stone <st1@brightnet>
Chillicothe, Ohio Ross
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 02:39:02 PM
IP: main-webcache.bright.net

Todd, Lady Mystic, AotN: Actually found it! The title of the book was _The Sword and the Circle: King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table._ The author/adapter was Rosemary Sutcliff, and it was published in '81. Keep in mind, it's not difficult reading since I did get my talons on it in seventh grade, but Sutcliff noted the references for each story in the Foreword.

Wow. There is something good that can come out of the library system here. (Private joke: they're expanding the library here, and none of the books are where they're supposed to be now. :))

'Tis all,
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 02:12:33 PM
IP: p1-25.netgsi.com

A clarification: Goliath's hatching year, according to Greg Weisman, was 938 AD, making him 54 when the clan was reawoken in 1994. This is equivalent to 27 in human years - late twenties, just like Elisa, not early twenties.

And keep in mind that time has continued to pass both on the show and in TGS. Right now (1998), Goliath is close to the human equivalent of 30.
Patrick Toman
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 01:47:19 PM
IP: 173-249-187.ipt.aol.com

*Mandi skips in, still high off the Stargate: SG-1 season premiere. She stops dead, squints, and cranks up the Contrast as far as it will go to read all the dark-colored text.*

The Arthurian book: I don't remember the title, but if I get through to the Harford County online card catalog, I might be able to dig it up. BTW, I did find out the title of the story I referred to, however: "Sir Gawain and the Loathely Lady" if you at least want to reference that one.

Fire Storm: Don't kill me, but QL episodes *did* have a connecting thread in the form of Al and Sam. And although they were jumping through time, they were in chronological order (for Al, anyway; Sam's 'Swiss-cheesed' memory kind of messed that up for him)

David: Thanks for clearing up more of that plot idea. What you plugged in your first post seemed kind of vague until you added some of the details. If it doesn't get into TGS, write it and post it on the Garg fanfic archive! The ideas you've got so far sound good. You could do it as a TGS-based fanfic, using Season 1 TGS as a backdrop.

*Mandi bounces out in the direction of the aforementioned online catalog to try to look up that book!*
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 01:04:36 PM
IP: p1-22.netgsi.com

AotN> I think you mean 30 gargoyle years, and 60 human years.
Lady Mystic with a "Y" please. Thank you.
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 12:06:10 PM
IP: 201-207-39.ipt.aol.com

*Angel skips in, singing "Iris" in a sweet, regal fashion. Corbin comes in behind her, slower than usual, his tail and bottom emerging first rather than his head. With him he drags Angel's heavy haversack. Angel glances at him and smiles. "That should keep you out of trouble!" Corbin emits a slight whimper in reply. Angel then turns to face to room.*

Jackal> It's kinda funny, but you spoke my mind with that statement! And about "Future Tense": the first time I saw that episode, that's what I thought would happen. *shrugs and sighs* Too bad. Too bad. *smiles* Btw, the first show I ever saw was "Temptation", so Brook and Mona were always my fave, too!

Todd> What book are you and Mandi talking about? ...I'm with Lady Mistic; I wanna read it, too!!

Fire Storm> Yeah, you sound about right on Goliath's age. I see him being 60 in gargoyle years, and about 30 by human standards.

*She waves goodbye cheerfully, then reaches down to help Corbin with her bag. He licks her face in gratitude, and she laughs. "Alright, alright, I forgive you!" She turns to leave and disappears into the darkness, followed closely by a yapping Corbin.*
AotN
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 10:08:46 AM
IP: akron-157-18.sssnet.com

*Todd enters the comment room ringing a small bell, in the fashion of an old-time town crier *

I'm starting the countdown today. It is now 100 days until the Rising. 100 days until the first episode of TGS's second season is publicly released.

DAVID - Actually, another problem is that we've already mapped out Season Two of TGS, and I don't think that we'd find it too easy to fit your story idea in it. We've got our own plans for Lexington after "Reprisals", which go in a different direction.

Angela getting raped in an alternate "Equality"? Boy, that is scary! I wouldn't want to be in that guy's shoes once Goliath found out about it. (But I don't think that even that would be enough to overcome Angela's trust in most humans, given her human foster-parents and Elisa. As Patrick Toman pointed out once, given how well Angela weathered the Sevarius business at Loch Ness, it's very unlikely that she could ever seriously turn into a human-hater like her mother).

And, for that matter, one can only wonder the impact on poor Alex, who would have been ultimately responsible for the incident on account of his spell. (Though admittedly, I think that Owen would do his best to shelter the kid from what happened).

*Todd walks out again, still ringing the bell. *
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 07:40:44 AM
IP: pn3-ppp-135.primary.net

Firestorm> Once I have the ability to use CD-Roms
you would probably have to put up with weekly or
monthly orders until I had the entire collection. You
don't even want to know how long it took me to get
my first CD player. Now that I have one, I can't live without it.
Don't get me wrong, but I admire the work and artistry that goes into doing the things so many of
you do with computers. It takes imagination and skill to do the many different things and I think you
do them well.
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 07:20:46 AM
IP: proxy-117.iap.bryant.webtv.net

Oh, I forgot to add:
Thanks for answering my question on the sources for Pendragon Todd and Rahsaan!

<<What makes you think it's word for word verbatium. I can't even right the same passage when it's something I've written, that's why your comment struck me. ~Rahsaan Footman>> Well, to clarify, I wasn't implying that it's word-for-word verbatim. It's just that while I was reading the flashbacks in "The Last Enchantment" the whole way the story was told seemed beyond familiar to the point where I could predict what you chose to happen next and how you planned to say it. And this is different than just guessing or already known the myths, it was as though I had seen the exact same passages before. Maybe it had something to do with my precognition abilities. (Yes I have a form of those abilities with some others. Whether you believe me or not is your decision, it makes no difference.)

Another thing, I wasn't asking for secrets on the series Rahsaan, why would you say that you couldn't devulge any secrets? I'm not asking for any. And since when did giving sources to an already known myth be any form of devulging secrets? Thank you both, though, for telling us your sources. If anything, I think you may have gotten some of us to check those books out.

<<MANDI OHLIN - Do you recall the name of that Arthurian book, by any chance? I'd like to read it. ~Todd Jensen>> Count me in too, please! Thanks. :)
Lady Mystic
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 04:22:07 AM
IP: 201-11-59.ipt.aol.com

Demona> I'm not really going to get into this debate again, but just to point something out that wasn't meantioned: It was indicated in Requiem that Demona didn't fully repent until she had a relationship with Benedick. I wish we were able to meet him more. He seemed soo sweet. Well that's one thing that would be nice to see in Season 2.

LadyMystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 03:45:22 AM
IP: 201-11-59.ipt.aol.com

Oh, my. Ok, ok. Fire Storm, let me clarify. No, that wasn't written to sound as a threat/demand. Quite simply, I meant it when I said "with all due respect where it applies", because to be honest, it would take me too long to write out the list of those who are involved in TGS, who I really am grateful for their wonderful stories. And in addition, it was just that I was brought up to ask first, and I never meant for any mis-understandings, here. In any event, I again apologize if it sounded mean, where it was not meant to be so. But still, I felt it fair, to ask of the people who have laid the literary ground with the current story-line with Lex, from which this little idea of mine, was started from.

Oh, yeah. Another little clarification, here. The longetivity potion's effects, make the boy age and act like how Gargoyles do. The boy looks and acts younger than his chronological age would suggest. Also, think back on when the Gargoyles awoke in Manhatten. Lex took to 20th century life, like a fish would take to water. This human, is the closest thing Lex would have to a twin brother intellectually, and ironically, were Lex human, or the boy a Gargoyle, they would look identical in appearance, would naturally adjust to the 20th Century, equally as fast as Lex himself had, technologically.
David <dcarmona@snet.net>
Suffield, CT USA
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 02:35:05 AM
IP: hrfr-sh7-port54.snet.net

At the sugestion of my SO, I posted the last post.
Fire Storm
Fire Storm <JeremyCBCD@aol.com>
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 02:27:51 AM
IP: 201-11-59.ipt.aol.com

<<Jackel> since I'm operating off webtv I have no way
to play cd discs (Sniff), but if and when I do I will
surely plague you existance. Its a wonderful idea.
Later people.
Starsinger
Theresa>>
Theresa, Just to clarify, you can, how should I put this... you can "plague my existance", if you will, when you get your computer. I made Jackal a copy of the episode on CD-ROM. I am putting the episodes on CD-ROM (Pending legalities)
Fire Storm
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 02:26:06 AM
IP: 201-11-59.ipt.aol.com

<<I apologize if anyone in here has a problem with me liking Demona, and hating Elisa.>>
Go ahead and hate that human's guts! I'd rather hear a story about Demona than Elisa any day of the week. I mean, to me, Elisa's ok and all, but she's a little goodie-goodie. From the very start my two favorite characters were Demona and Brooklyn. Now, I'm slightly disturbed that Brook hates Demi, ya know? I love the both of them, but they hate each other, i don't know, it's just strange to me. Just a little side note..., I know that Greg has said that Demona and Goliath aren't gonna get back together, but, wouldn't it be cool..., just for shock value, like in Future Tense, when Demona and Brooklyn were together..., if Demona and Goliath had a little kissy face scene or whatever? Ya know?
Jackal <Jkal662@aol.com>
Ga uSa
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 02:09:49 AM
IP: spider-tq071.proxy.aol.com

David:> There are many fans on here that would like to be the brainstormers for TGS, but, hey, not everyone can. Just to clairify about "A Fan", that is someones screen name, not just a referance to a nameless fan. Just as I am Fire Storm, he (or she) is simply A Fan. The good thing about independant fan-fic is that you do not have to worry about getting anyones permision to post it. Does TGS get direct permission from Disney? No. Am I getting permission from TGS? No, nor do I feel that I require it. I do not know how you wanted it to sound, but your former message sounded like a threat/demand.

To clarify on my last post, Demona focuses ANGELA's hatred.

According to "Meet the Characters: Gargoyles" (1995) book, Hudson is in his fifties, and Elisa is 25.

Goliath in his late 20's? Not quite. If any age, I would estimate him to be about 70 human, 35 gargoyle. I could be wrong, but, mathmatically, it works out that he would be somewhere betweem 25 and 35. I feel that he is more towards the later than the former.

Thats it. Zippity do-da, Zippety Day! My, oh, my, I am going to pay.
Fire Storm
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 01:27:12 AM
IP: 201-11-59.ipt.aol.com

:::chuckle::: Very well, another spoiler. The reason for his.. uh, not aging like most humans would, has to do with a little um, *adventure* where the boy accidentally wandered into the Archmage's lair while still quite young, where he crossed paths with a "longetivity potion" that the Archmage had left in the room, originally planning to use on himself, with predicable results, for a little tyke that didn't know he shouldn't have been in there. In short, the boy will age, roughly as well as a Gargoyle would, as a result. Because he didn't have a full dosage. See, he kinda got "busted".

And about submitting the stories themselves, explain the stories penned by "A Fan". If a nameless fan can do so, then why can't I? In addition, if you so wish, I can just write the rough ideas, and such. And TGS staff, could pen the rest. However, I would like to do what I can, either way. And finally, with all due respect where it applies, I would not feel it right, to pen a few good stories, and not have them acknowledged by the site that inspired them.
David <dcarmona@snet.net>
Suffield, CT 06078
Saturday, June 27, 1998 at 12:27:07 AM
IP: hrfr-sh7-port54.snet.net

Shauntel> ANYONE can turn bad. It just depends on the situations. Take one of my fan-fic's (Unpublished), for example. It starts towards the end of "Equality" (Like most of my fan-fic, for some odd reason). When they attempt to stop the muggers, they take out the guys, and end up raping Angela. Demona focused the hatred for that guy that raped her, and she was able to turn her hatred and fear against ALL humans. If she believed it strong enough, she may start to be more, and more like her mother, ESPECIALLY ith her mother egging her on.

As for the Fae History (Ok, so the subject may have been droped, but I havent been on, dag-nabbit!) I do believe that having a little more information about the past of the fae would be interesting. And no, it really wouldn't have to connect one episode to another. It would be nice to just learn a little about each fae without getting rid of thier mystery. Then, the next week, the story could move to a totally different way. Kinda like Quantum Leap. How often did the episodes connect? HMMMMM?
Fire Storm <JeremyCBCD@aol.com>
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 11:21:35 PM
IP: 204-161-34.ipt.aol.com

(Doug shoves his way through a crowd of tabloid reporters asking him questions about his relationship with Lisa. Jerry Springer comes up and asks if Doug and Lisa will be on his show. Doug kicks him where it really hurts, knocking the guy to the floor. Then he shoves his way to the center of the chat room.)
Todd: Dark One hit the nail about right on the head for our campaign. The clan of gargs in question had been kicked out of the city they'd protected by a religious genocidal uprising. Their leader, Herne, saw that human soldiers protected the town for money, got respect, while gargoyles protected the town for nothing in return and were treated like dirt. So, Herne figured maybe gargoyles would get respect if instead of just protecting people out of instinct, he'd do it for money. His clan felt the same way, and they became some of the best mercs in the realms, once they allied with a group of mercenary humans who could do the day-guarding. That was the reason they became what they were, hope it settles the question in your mind. One should note that those gargs were the only group of garg mercs we've encountered so far. All the other gargs we met were just protecting human, dwarven, and elven cities and mostly getting respect for it. Except one clan we did meet once that was bandits. We killed those too fast to find out the story behind them. Oh well.
(Doug chuckles and waves goodbye. The mob of reporters rush him, but he disappears in a flash of light, making their story even stranger.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, Texas USA
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 11:02:08 PM
IP: ad49-149.arl.compuserve.com

Although I haven't been here in a long time, and I seem to be jumping in on a conversation, I would think that Gargoyles would want to be mercenaries if they have no homes or if they feel they have nothing to protect. In return for protecting whoever would pay them, Gargoyle Mercenaries would have a true feeling of belonging as they would be protecting SOMETHING if only their paymaster's interests. Just as humans might be pressured into doing something they wouldn't normally do because of peers, gargoyles might be pressured into fighting becuase of their instinctine urge to protect. Anyway, those are my two cents.

PS How did "Fathers of the Future" turn out?
Dark One <XMSK10D@prodigy.com>
Cleveland Heights, Ohio USA
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 08:28:53 PM
IP: clevb105-33.splitrock.net

DOUG ELDER - One last thing that I forgot to ask about before, your bit about gargoyle mercenaries. I always thought that gargoyles weren't interested in money (with the exception of an aberrant or two like Thailog). So what prompted these gargs to become mercenaries?
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 07:36:31 PM
IP: pn3-ppp-120.primary.net

DAVID - I'm sorry about this, but we can't accept stories and ideas for TGS from anybody other than "staff members". You can write your story as an independent fanfic spinoff from TGS, but I'm afraid that you can't actually submit it to the team.

MANDI OHLIN - Do you recall the name of that Arthurian book, by any chance? I'd like to read it.
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 06:45:54 PM
IP: pn3-ppp-120.primary.net

And something else.....I think that the Goliath/Elisa relationship is a very over rated portion of the show. I mean come on, it took them 65 episodes to kiss.....if you don't count all the stuff in The Mirror, which is a very over rated episode also.......ideas??
Ordell <ordell9425@geocities.com>
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 04:32:06 PM
IP: 168-102-70.ipt.aol.com

About Demona's "mood swings".......I think when she was at her worst was in Long Way to Morning, where she just wouldn't give up.....kinda like Bethliham in The Postman......now there's a great movie......okay people....later......
Ordell <ordell9425@geocities.com>
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 04:25:56 PM
IP: 168-102-70.ipt.aol.com

*Pops her head back in, smiling.*
"Prophets and Angels" is the one with the Michel flashback.
Oh, yeah, and I apologize if anyone in here has a problem with me liking Demona, and hating Elisa. Most people are all "Oh, my gosh!! I love Goliath and Elisa!! I hope they get married and have kids!!", and I understand that. But, I'm probably likely to puke likely to puke if anyone goes on about it that much. *smiles dryly* I mean, I love Puck, but because of other things in "The Mirror", I've never been able to watch the whole thing straight through. I'm the only one in here, I think, who hates her, so I'm sorry, don't shoot me. *smiles and waves*
**GONE**
AotN
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 03:04:44 PM
IP: dialup-103-98.sssnet.com

Laudre: Thanks for clearing that up. Now back to work/play.

Dave: I think your story is a good idea. But do you realize how much time it will take to get the boy adjusted to 1990s' technology? And would he be a boy? If he and Lex have been
friends since childhood that cover roughly forty years.

That's all for now. Bye!
Cassandra <nscoa3099@alpha.nsula.edu>
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 02:57:03 PM
IP: 192.102.223.229

*Out of the darkness, Angel emerges in a cloud of sparks and glitter, followed by her red fox, Corbin. The fox trots across the room, sniffing around. "Be good, Cor," she warns him. Then, facing the room, she begins to speak...*

Laudre> That's funny, Goliath in his late twenties. I don't know why, but he seems older. Maybe he was always too wise for his age. He just acts more like a late thirties type. *smirks* That was always my assumption. Anyway...
You know, I've been disturbed about Brooklyn being older than him. I mean, when Goliath made him his second, Brooklyn was, well, naive. Now he's...older. I guess I just like the young Brook better. It also seems that he's less attached to his brothers now, but maybe that's just another example of my poor observations. The only series I've read religiously is DARK AGES, so maybe I've overlooked something? Or someone out there share my view points? *shrugs and smiles*
Now, for anyone who is calling Demona a bitch (Sevarius Jr. *smirks*), I think that's WAY out o' line. I, personally, like the AotN of ancient Scotland better than any character, ever. Yes, the Demona of GARGOYLES is rather, um, moody (there's an understatement), but she is not purely evil, as she shows a special love for her daughter. Also, just last night I was reading one story (Something "and Angels", I'll post the title later), and was very touched by the flashback story of her and Michel, the physician. So, if anyone is going to call her any other names, I just have to say, "That's harsh."

*She picks up Corbin and her large haversack, waves to the room, and dematerializes into the darkness.*
AotN
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 02:56:35 PM
IP: dialup-103-98.sssnet.com

PS: that reminds me, I'll need to look over that other SL here, from before the Viking attack, and see where to fit "Pheonix" in. Right now, I've read up to the first few tales in the "Pendragon" saga. I liked the "Timedancer" series, and I'm looking forward to more to come. Same for "TGS" itself. Truth be told, I really got a kick out of that time-jumping story in the "Timedancer" series, where all the absurdities happened. Ok, enough chatter for me, I got some reading to do, and more than a mite bit of research, it seems.
David <dcarmona@snet.net>
Suffield, CT USA
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 02:43:47 PM
IP: hrfr-sh7-port54.snet.net

:::sigh::: (Mannheim Steamroller's Fresh Aire music playing softly in the background,) Well, I didn't explain the reason(s) why there was no previous mention of him, beforehand. One is, there were many losses, that night in 994. That, and the knowledge wasn't well known, truth be told. Only a few, like Lex's rookery brothers, the boy's parents (who died the day of the attack, by the way.) and that sister of Goliath's who was an inventoress, knew that they were birth-best friends, him and Lex. Secondly, he himself got captured, but not after preventing the Vikings from gaining access to the Rookery, courtesy of a few choice gadgets of his own devising, and a very devisive mind indeed.

Later, when he is to be finally awakened at Castle Wyvern when Titania drops in for a visit, and the boy (I *still* have yet to name him, any suggestions?) and Lex have a shocked and happy re-union, that's when riots begin on the streets again. No rest for the weary, ain't that the truth. Having heard brief mention that Xanatos had a powersuit, and after the Gargoyles go out to do their job, he sneaks off to "borrow" one, and joins the fight, where Pheonix Rising shows their heads. It is once again in battle, that the TechnoTwins are truly re-united, and kick some major butt, not to mention the boy himself chooses a new battle name, ironicly "Pheonix", after his return from the ashes of the Wyvern massacre.

As to how helpful he can be with Lex's er... *problem*...? I ain't gonna say, 'cause that's for a later tale. Meanwhile, I'll write up the story, and I'd truly appreciate it if those who wish to see the drafts and make accuracy suggestions, those who have been doin' TGS longer, to please tell me where to mail, because I'm really interested to see this story begin.
David <dcarmona@snet.net>
Suffield, CT USA
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 02:34:39 PM
IP: hrfr-sh7-port54.snet.net

As far as hybrids are concerned, I think the door is open. Fae and humans are hardly the same species, but there are halflings up the Yangtze. And Fox is very fertile, having Alexander. The door is open, whether Goliath and Elise step through that door, is another question.

Dave> If you have an idea, write it first. You don't need anyone's approval. When I write I often find that things pop up in the process that takes the story in other directions. The friend from the 10th century has been done and it seems like an awful lot of work to get this guy from then to the present. The question you might want to ask is how this friend will help Lex? Just having your friends around doesn't immediately help. It takes time and real soulsmithing.
Taleweaver <rdfootman@csupomona>
Yorba Linda,
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 01:49:08 PM
IP: ppp-207-214-176-148.anhm01.pacbell.net

Cassandra> Brooklyn was 19 in human terms when he left; when he returned, he was 39. Goliath is in his late 20's in human terms, so Brooklyn is older.
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 01:00:18 PM
IP: p01-38.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

No special effects now. I promise I'll go away for a while after this. Sevarius Jr: My last comment was harsher than it intended to be. Take it with a grain of salt. (OT, you see "Jackie Brown" yet? Was it any good?)

About what I said about Demona, I meant to say "a thousand years of madness may only be cured by another thousand years of regret." That's all, I have to get to work. :)

As for Demona, I meant to say "a thousand years of madness could only be cured by another thousand years of regret."

Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 12:58:06 PM
IP: 131.92.167.42

Auuugh! I can't think straight, or else I'm just deliberatly confusing myself. Anyway, I was just working on my fanfic when the following thought hit me. Brooklyn has aged twenty garg-years on his forty year TimeDancing spree. So does that make him the same age as Goliath now? Or is he little older or a little younger? I can just plow through the story, but the age thing is willing starting to annoy my need-to-know section of my brain.
Cassandra <nscoa3099@alpha.nsula.edu>
Natchitoches, Louisiana USA
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 12:13:52 PM
IP: 198.79.157.70

*Mandi sticks her head out of the portal, having forgotten something.*

David: That's an interesting idea, but for TGS it would seem a bit too contrived only because there's been absolutely no mention or hinting at Lex having a bud like that, not even in "Dark Ages." Plus, I really felt for Lexington in TGS, but I have to admit that even such a reunion wouldn't fully set him on the road to emotional recovery. And besides, from what was said in "Reprisals," nothing short of sorcery or a miracle would get rid of the implants, and who's to say Madoc and Maeve might not try to uplink to them again? Or even try to blackmail Lex into betraying the clan with the promise of removing them? *shudder* Okay. I need to party.
*Mandi ducks back into the portal, and we hear her shouting "Ashley! Dave! Get away from that keg!" You don't want to see those two drunk...*
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 08:36:16 AM
IP: 131.92.167.42

*A space/time/continuity rip opens and Mandi steps out, brushing confetti out of her hair.*
You know, there's just something *wrong* with having a party in between dimensions....
Sevarius Jr: Excuse me! I was just using Ladyhawke as a comparison. Yeesh. If you know any Tarantino flicks that would fit that little conflict, tell me. If not, then let's drop it.
Jackal: If Demona ever does reform, I don't think Angela will be the sole cause. A thousand years of madness may only be cured by a thousand more years. Demona just may grow sick and tired of her plans failing. I can only see her turning "good" after the quest to rid humanity wears her down to the point until it doesn't seem worth the effort any more.
*The portal opens again. Mandi waves to the room, then jumps back in. "Hey! Save me some of those!"*
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 08:24:29 AM
IP: 131.92.167.42

AD&D gargoyles - alignment - I think you're forgetting what the game's definition of Lawfull-Chaotic _means_. That axis specifically measures the ability (and inclination) of the subject to work in groups, obey rules, follow orders. I.e., organize socially. On this, gargoyles fall somewhere in the range Lawful to Neutral. Thailog is Lawfull Evil, he has no problems with a highly structured heirarchy, as long as he's on top. Neither has Demona. Even the maverick gargoyles (e.g., Lex, Asrial) don't have any problems following orders per se.

Re-read the descriptions of alignments in the rule book. I think you'll see what I mean.
Larry
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 06:21:13 AM
IP: www-fw-proxy5.boeing.com

Demona> I see the point about her being NE, not CE. I just saw her being guided by her predjudices and emotions, which I would find chaotic. With Angela, it does show a second side. I owuld rate Thailog as NE, too.

MacBeth> I guess he is pretty Neutral, but I always saw him as NG, because of his personal code of honor, though he has done or threatened to do some rather nasty things, like casting a spell on Broadway.

On a question from last week, my pick for next series would be Bad Guys, since a few villains have left. I see teh Director as a good guy, who is giving the Bad Guys a second chance and leads some society that is the good counterpart to the Illuminati. I had some own ideas, where the five would meet an agent of the Director, who would be like Charlie, from a certain 70s sitcom. I would have soem well-known figures form political office and other high-profile positions instruct them on their missions, with a few phrases of their own as a sort of in-joke, though it may take a fellow C-Span junkie to get soem of the in-jokes. This was among my fanfic plans and one day, I may actually write some. My first would be an Avalon tour episode, but the rest would be after Hunter's Moon.
Green Baron <greenbaron@hotmail.com>
New Orleans, Louisiana USA
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 03:11:17 AM
IP: 200-27-245.ipt.aol.com

Something wierd happened to me today, i got in a fight, but the strange part is, I noticed I was growling and kinda..., roaring. I'm for real, I swear to God. The person I was fighting had to have thought, "This guy's off his rocker." Which is probably why the second time we went at it, he was more interested in restrianing me than fighting back. Which didn't do anything but make me more mad, because in doing that, he had sucess. Just thank God I don't have talons, I surrrrre woulda used 'em. Anywayz!!!!!!!!
<<I don't like the whole idea of Demona being neutral in any way. She's a bitch... I don't buy her suddenly thinking twice, after centuries of wanting humans dead, just cause she worries about her daughter. And don't any of you give me a bunch of crap about how parenthood changes a person. It may, but not after a thousand years of evil. Demona should remain a villain...>>
Demona's a villian? I guess it depends on how you look at it..., I severly doubt Demona should go thur _much_ of a change because of her daughter, unless she wants to. I mean, yeah that's wonderful and all, but being a parent myself, a child alone can't change that parent much. (Demona, let me speak for ya hun, I know where ya comin from) [and I do too], See, I'm 21 now, I have changed very little since I was 18, 17, 16, whatever. When my frist child came into my life, I was like.., **Aww, look a baby, hey, I helped make that! Isn't it wonderful!! (turns to friend) You ready to go?** Understand? A parent has to want that change. Angela is a positive thing in Demona's life, Demona has relized this, but Demona is Demona, although, she's dealing with feelings that only a child can create, [and I personally know this] those tendenceies to do "evil" are still there. Demona has one _major_ problem...., humanity. She wants to kill humanity.., hey, who hasn't at one point? There's been plenty of times I wish I could reach in my pocket for a vile of that CV-1000 virus stuff, and just bust it wide open. Yeah, I woulda killed myself too, but hey, atleast you know everyone is goin with ya! hahahaha
But no really, I don't think Angela alone can "reform" Demona, she needs more than just the love of a child, she needs the love of another adult, and she's got to have that will to change, to say, "OK, I f***ed up, help me." Only in admitting that, will anything positive in her life, truely mean something. What was I saying?.... Oh, yeah, Demona has some problems, humanity.... the other problem would be, Angela. Yes, Angela. Here you have two gargoyles... trying to reform one another. Know what I mean? Angela, bless her pea pickin heart, is sayin, I can name more good humans than I have fingers. Demona's sayin, I can name more bad humans than than hairs on my head. So, there's a dillema there...., It all comes back to Demona...., She's got to want that change.
Well Jesss, I'm talkative tonight..., I think that's it. Oh no, one more thing, Isn't it a little out of line to call Demona a bitch??? Anyway, that's it....

Jackal <Jkal662@aol.com>
Ga Usa
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 02:28:54 AM
IP: spider-tq041.proxy.aol.com

(Doug walks in, eyes looking for Unseelie and seeing none. He laughs at their cowardice.)
On the gargs' AD&D stats: I just made these up based on my impressions of the gargs from the show. I know Demona has high Intelligence based on what I've seen of her character. Likewise for Goliath's high Strength, Hudson's Wisdom, etc. Hope that clears it up.
Sevarius Jr.: Keep your movie likes to yourself, pal. In my opinion, all QT's films stunk worse than anything your dad ever made (no offense). And Demona should not always stay a bitch. I like the becoming-good version better than the evil one. Demona would suck as a static villian character. Her changing alignment is one of the things that makes her one of my favorite characters. Just letting you know my thoughts on the subject.
(Doug takes a bow and leaves.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 02:05:30 AM
IP: hd38-025.hil.compuserve.com

Hi. I'm a writer, and I'd like someone to get back to me, about a story idea, called "Resurrection". A human boy, that Lexington knew back in 994 Scotland, who asks the Magus to turn him to stone like the Gargoyles, and then take him to Avalon, to be sent back to Castle Wyvern, when the Gargoyles awaken. Lexington and the teenage boy, were best friends, in their fascination with new inventions, and had been born, at around the same time, and pretty much grew up together. However, in the seige on Avalon, there was some small structual damage, and the room that held the stone form of Lexington's old friend from 1,000 years ago, was buried in the rubble, intact. It was only later, after the events chronicled last week, that Princess Katherine, Titania, and Tom found the statue, and remembered the long-forgotten promise to revive him when the Gargoyles have been awakened. This could not have come at a better time, considering the tragedy Lex has suffered, cursed with his "upgrade". Finally, a fellow techno-nut from his own century, who truly was like his twin brother, for a human. In fact, he looks just like Lex did, that time when he became human. :::slight wry smile::: I thought of this, because I always did feel a kinship, with the character of Lexington. And this latest turn for his character, is one I feel sorry about reading. Poor Lex. To gain talents above and beyond his wildest dreams, and yet not how he would have wished it to be.
David <dcarmona@snet.net>
Suffield, CT USA
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 01:49:02 AM
IP: hrfr-sh7-port61.snet.net

Natural hybrids> Yep; there's also tigons and ligers (I believe they're called). The difference between the two is in the sexes of the parents (i.e., whether the mother or the father was the lion). I'm sure there are species with which a human could procreate, but I'm certain the offspring would be sterile, as natural hybrids are. Greg has said that Gargoyles and humans can't procreate, but who knows? Either way, it would take magical or scientific intervention for them to have a child who *can* procreate with a human or gargoyle, and for the offspring of *that* mating be fertile as well.
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Friday, June 26, 1998 at 12:36:59 AM
IP: p01-48.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

Shantell if you scroll down to Batya's post about the
t-shirts and use the link there is a further link from the t-shirts back to the Gathering. The hotel
rooms are usually per night add about 15% for room and lodging tax and the like. It is very important
to anyone making a reservation to let them know you are a part the Gathering. This makes sure you get the Gatherings rate and counts for such things as
hospitality suites for the con and the like. I was
in the hotel business for many years and know most of
the little problems that can crop up. While not
currently in the hospitality business I still know a
lot of things if anyone needs advice.
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 11:18:15 PM
IP: proxy-128.iap.bryant.webtv.net

Shauntell: Funny you should mention Angela going bad ... actually, I have a theory about Angela and her mother I've integrated into my own fics. The way I see it, Angela would become like her mother if a few choice situations occurred:

a) Some kind of magical manipulation by Demona.
b) Something happens in the clan's lives, a major tragedy, which drives a wedge between Angela and her father, making her question his love for her. (the situation I explored is Elisa's death, which makes Goliath brood even more than usual, thus providing that wedge that would be necessary.)
c) Something happens to Angela personally, which makes her question how much she means to the clan.
d) All of the above.
e) None of the above (maybe it's just genetics.).

And speaking of genetics ... the issue of Goliath and Elisa having a child. Scientifically speaking, it may be dangerous, but it is possible for them to have a child naturally, although the hybrid offspring they produce, contrary to any bad-science sci-fi you might read (and unfortunately some gargfic), would have a near-nil chance of being fertile. Though most times hybridization is forced upon nature by man (the most obvious example being the mule), in certain cases natural mating drives have led to hybridizations: the "Wholphin" at Hawaii's Sea Life Park, for example. (My girlfriend also told me stories about cat-rabbits that appeared in Nova Scotia.)

As a way of compensating for the drastic differences in species, the bodily functions and organs would average out to a middle ground; the Wholphin's number of teeth is a good example of this (Dolphin - 44 teeth; False Killer Whale - 88 teeth; Wholphin - 66 teeth).

Hope this wasn't too scientific. I'm just of the opinion that a natural child is possible.

I'll go back into my hidey hole now ...
Coyote the Bando <1134@i-is.com>
Algonac, Michigan
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 10:51:54 PM
IP: modem134.net-ex.com

I don't like the whole idea of Demona being neutral in any way. She's a bitch. Leave her as a bitch. I don't buy her suddenly thinking twice, after centuries of wanting humans dead, just cause she worries about her daughter. And don't any of you give me a bunch of crap about how parenthood changes a person. It may, but not after a thousand years of evil. Demona should remain a villain, and a damn evil one at that.

As for Ladyhawke...what kind of movies are you watchin' here people? My advice--go to your local Blockbuster, rent something by Quentin Tarantino (but make damn sure he ain't actin' in it, 'cept if its that vampire movie with George Clooeny) and you'll be set.
Sevarius Jr.
Seattle , Washington USA
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 10:51:33 PM
IP: client-151-200-120-236.bellatlantic.net

Sorry to be a pest agian, but I had more questions... and comments. First off, I like the idea ( whoever brought it up ) of Goliaths parents being immortalized. That would be way cool! I also had a question about Angela. I read a few days ago that she will be dealing with fears about becoming like her mother. But she won't ever really turn bad will she? Angela is a major sweat heart and really worked a miracle for Goliath.
Also I was curios how long Goliaths and Elisas relationship would end for? I think that that would be really hard for Goliath, especially considering the way he had been hurt by Demona. I my self would hate to see them apart for so long.
Oh, one more thing. Where is the web page for finding out about the Gathering? I might be able to go but it'll probably be pushing the budget. I need info on the hotels, the cost for the 13th through the 18th night by night, or if it's just a total cost for all of those nights, and some info on transportation. I had found a little bit before but lost my notes.
Another thing that I wanted to clear up was that I never meatnt to cause a big debate about Goliath and Elisa. I was just curios and I am a huge fan of those two characters. I also wanted to add that the can not have intercourse. It is not safe or natural, cloning or magic would be the most logical solution, or adopting. But I would prefer to see them with their own child. Please don't get all riled up about this, just enjoying my freedom of speech like the rest of you folks.
Thanks guys.
Shauntell
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 10:23:23 PM
IP: spider-wa022.proxy.aol.com

*Mandi has been frequenting this room way too much, but what the heck.*
TODD: Funny you should mention coming up with Morgana's daughter delivering the cloak. A ways back in middle school, I read a book of Arthurian legends gathered from various sources and rewritten in modern English. When the author adapted the story about Morgana's gift to Merlin, the deliverer was written in as Morgana's daughter. Not all the sources were from Malory, however. There was one tale about Gawain that was supposedly adapted from a ballad, and I don't remember the title. However, it struck me as interesting because of an unsolved riddle that the story revolved around: "What does a woman want most?" The answer, which baffled Arthur for months, was "Her own way."
If I ever track down that book again and find out the source, I'll tell you. Just found it intriguing given the difference of perspective towards the sexes between Arthur's time and ours.
*Mandi finally leaves, having retrieved her tape successfully.*
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 09:44:49 PM
IP: p1-15.netgsi.com

Quickie post --

Click on my name to see the G'98 t-shirt designs!
Batya "The Toon" Levin
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 09:38:33 PM
IP: 95.new-york-01-02rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

ECLIPSES - My understanding of the situation is that gargoyles turn to stone in the daytime because of a biological clock rather than because of any effect sunlight has on them (remember, in "The Silver Falcon", Broadway turned to stone in a basement completely shielded from sunlight), so I doubt that a solar eclipse would affect them. I've sometimes wondered what the long polar nights would do to them, though.

LADY MYSTIC - Um, first off, it's "King Arthur" and "Merlin", not "King Aurthor" and "Merlyn". As for the sources that I used when I wrote Merlin's story in "The Last Enchantment", there's no real need to keep them secret here, so:

The basic concept about Merlin having an evil fay for his father was taken from Robert de Boron, who portrayed Merlin as the son of the Devil (who wanted him to serve as a false prophet or the Antichrist and turn humanity away from Christianity to worship him), who was saved for good by the intervention of his mother and Blaise; I changed it to the Lord of the Unseelie Court to avoid religious problems in TGS. Merlin and Vortigern's encounter was from Geoffrey of Monmouth, as was the Dragon-Star scene. The May Day Decree came from Malory, although I reinterpreted it to make it Madoc in disguise as Merlin giving Arthur the advice to drown the children, rather than Merlin himself. The business about Merlin and Nimue was a combination of Malory and the Vulgate Cycle. The bit about Tristram getting Nimue to release Merlin was based on an obscure reference in a French Arthurian romance that Tristram persuaded Nimue to release Merlin, without giving the details.

The flashbacks in "The Goddess of Winter" were mostly Malory with a few tidbits of Geoffrey of Monmouth here and there. The biggest change that I made (other than inserting gargoyles into the war with King Lot in Part Two) was identifying the girl who was burnt up with the "fiery cloak" as Morgana la Fay's daughter, so as to make this more of a grievance (in Malory, she was simply a handmaiden, but I felt that portraying her as such would be anticlimactic after the deaths of Gorlois and Accolon). I took the name Morfydd from the Welsh legends about Arthur - which was where I also got the original Cavall, after whom our Cavall is named, and Madoc Morfryn as the name of Merlin's dad.
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 08:14:10 PM
IP: pn5-ppp-209.primary.net

Sorry for the double post people. Furfoots walked
across the keyboard (it wireless and they have NO
respect) and hit the wrong key.
By the way has anyone noticed how many new characters
have been created by the TGS staff? A lot.

Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 07:47:58 PM
IP: proxy-116.iap.bryant.webtv.net

Mandi> Thanks for finding my soapbox. The furfoots
let me sleep in the bed last night. (Most of the time.)
Doug and other gamers> I am not a RP as such but I
find the discussion very enlighting. Where do you get the stats on someone's strength and intellegence
and the like. Years back I got some of the Xmen stats
because I was interested things like why Mageneto has
such a high strength or was it endurance level. Because of his powers he could travel in space. A
simple explaination but it explained a lot of things.
Ladyhawk> There were no memorable cosumes but the
acting and script made up for it. I have seen a
similar storyline in a few other stories since and
they have been handled well.
Jackel> since I'm operating off webtv I have no way
to play cd discs (Sniff), but if and when I do I will
surely plague you existance. Its a wonderful idea.
Later people.
Starsinger
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 07:44:30 PM
IP: proxy-116.iap.bryant.webtv.net

Mandi> Thanks for finding my soapbox. The furfoots
let me sleep in the bed last night. (Most of the time.)
Doug and other gamers> I am not a RP as such but I
find the discussion very enlighting
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 07:39:26 PM
IP: proxy-116.iap.bryant.webtv.net

Lady Mystic asked what our sources were for Pendragon. Well, I can't divulge all our secrets, but we do use a lot of Mort d'Artur by Mallory. What makes you think it's word for word verbatium. I can't even right the same passage when it's something I've written, that's why your comment struck me.
Rahsaan Footman <rdfootmancsupomona.edu>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 06:55:49 PM
IP: 134.71.30.89

(Doug walks in, tapping an iron baseball bat in one open palm. Several ugly minor Unseelies lunge out of the chatroom crowd at him. Expecting the attack, he beats them off with his stick, then turns to the room.)
Okay, I should have known Maeve would get angry if I kept making prank calls to her office at Maddox Tech. Oh well. Here's what I have to say:
Ladyhawke: Great movie. Love that movie. Most of my thief AD&D characters have ended up being like the thief in that movie. Alright, enough about that.
Neutral Evil: No, Neutral Evil is not a contradiction in terms. It's just a reference to the way a being is. Let me explain to you the way the AD&D game determines alignment. First, there's Good, Neutral, and Evil. The distinctions here are obvious. Then the one aspect of the alignment is modified by either Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic. This means they react towards the established society in certain ways. Let's take someone who's Lawful Good, like say Elisa Maza. This kind of person will generally fully respect the law and always obey it, while using its constraints to work for the benefit of others. They'll also try to ensure other people don't break the law either, or get punished for it if they do, so that the established society benefits. If there's an unjust law, though, sometimes a Lawful Good person will speak out against it and try to get it struck down. Martin Luther King did that. Now, let's look at Lawful Evil. The best example of a character like this in Gargoyles would be Xanatos before he went good. This sort of bad guy freely uses unjust laws and the system to hurt people and increase their own power at the expense of everybody else's. In other words, they're generally the kind of person who uses the system to kick everybody around while profiting themselves. Between the two is Lawful Neutral. These kind of people just do what the law says or their authority figure commands, only occasionally straying from obeying authority. This sounds like Owen. On the other end of the spectrum are Chaotic Good, Neutral, and Evil people. The CG people are the typical wild and crazy party-guys who believe freedom is the best way to profit good, they often act irrationally and will commit illegal acts for the benefit of others or themselves, as long as it's a good purpose. Examples of this kind of folk include Brooklyn and Robin Hood. CN folks follow whatever whim comes their way, always acting irrational and crazy, often playing practical jokes. A gargs character like this is Puck. CE people are the depraved psychos or terrorists you see on TV all the time, the kind who throw everything they have toward accomplishing a bad cause and always work for their own benefit, tearing down the system if it gets in their way. Unlike LE people, they generally don't manipulate or take advantage of the system for evil. They attack it, thus increasing others' fear of them and their own power. Think Jackal or Hyena. Neutral Good people are people like, say, Broadway. This kind of people are generally easygoing, and usually just do their own thing unless something is threatening the common welfare. Then they go all-out and do whatever's necessary to eradicate the threat. Laws are usually followed by them, but they'll break the law if necessary. True Neutral (Neutral Neutral) people are either frequently changing sides to ensure good and evil remain in balance (can't think of anyone like this on Gargs), or seek to remain extremely isolated. "The world can do their own thing, just as long as it lets me do mine." This kind of person would be like Macbeth or Oberon. Then there's Neutral Evil. This means they're evil, and they don't care about the system. If they can use it to benefit themselves, they will. If the best way to benefit their interests is to attack the system or work in opposition to it, they'll do that, too. It's like Neutral Good, but NE people work to the benefit of themselves instead of everyone else. Demona would definitely fill this alignment, as would Madoc and Duval if he's really a bad guy. There are lots of in-between cases, of course, but these 9 basic ethics types generally cover the spectrum. Hope that helped you see why it's not a contradiction in terms. The Demona in "Requiem" would definitely be Neutral or Chaotic Good. Later.
That's all. Ta ta for now.
(The Unseelie rush to attack Doug again as he tries to leave. He once again beats them off with his stick.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 05:32:07 PM
IP: hd71-014.hil.compuserve.com

Mandi> Before I even got half-way through reading that paragraph I thought of "Ladyhawke". :)

AotN> The red gargoyle beast pic is Cavall, not Boudicca.
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 04:07:06 PM
IP: 201-227-64.ipt.aol.com

*Angel's head pops back in.*
Btw, is there such a thing a "Neutral Evil"? Hmm...oxymoron? I think so! *smirks and shrugs*
*She disappears again in a cloud of cascading sparkles.*
AotN <tkhoury@sssnet.com>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 03:24:41 PM
IP: akron-157-13.sssnet.com

*A red fox runs into the room, yapping and chasing it's tale. Angel races in after it, her overflowing haversack weighing her down. "Corbin, stop that!!" The fox, looking hurt and dejected, crawls back towards the haversack with its tail between its legs, and climbs in obediently. With things back in order, Angel looks around, laughs, and points to her large bag.*

Mandi> Hey, I have one of Demona's guns somewhere in here if you need it!

Green Baron> I don't want to start something, either, but I agree with Doug about Demona. Her mixed up feelings (and psycological status) make her more of a "Neutral Evil".

Doug> No, no, I didn't want any info 'bout Boudicca (so THAT'S how you spell it!). I just wanted to know if the red garg dog picture that's been posted in here is her. *smiles*

*Waves to everyone, then starts to walk away. Her haversack moves and barks. As she fades into the darkness, her faint scolds and sighs can be heard...*
AotN
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 03:18:04 PM
IP: akron-157-13.sssnet.com

*Mandi storms in, too mad at persons in the "real world" to bother with the special effects for once.*

Grr! I'm actually legally allowed to get off work an hour early today, and I can't get a hold of my ride to tell her!

Cassandra: Actually, I don't consider that idea a rip-off really; I loved "Ladyhawke." Hmm....lemme jot this down for when I get to that fic...

I don't know if a lunar eclipse would do much, and a solar eclipse wouldn't block out the sunlight enough, IMHO, to cancel out stone sleep. Oh, wait, no, here's an idea....

A loong while ago, I read Aris Merquoni's short fic called "Nightmares" about Lex discovering that he can wake up during the day, but only because of the most horrible, terrible, no-good, very bad nightmare. :) What if a solar eclipse would make it possible for a nightmare to nudge a gargoyle out of stone sleep? Sort of like an extra push towards waking up.

*Dave walks in and taps Mandi on the shoulder, waves a videotape case at her like a carrot in front of a mule, then dashes out.*

What?? You jerk! You told me your sister fried my tape of the Seinfeld finale! Get back here! *turns to the room* Ahem. Excuse me.

*Waves and dashes out in hot pursuit.*
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 02:56:53 PM
IP: 131.92.167.42

*Cassandra walks into the room, arguing with the three-inch high fae sitting on her shoulder. "No, I did not make a wrong turn. This is just a quick stop before we get to Ireland." Turns to the room.*

Sorry, but my "friend" here is a little impatient to get home.
Mandi: Yes, that reminds me of "Ladyhawke" but Gargoyles has done so many re-writes you can get away with it. But it does bring up the question of what an eclipse would do? Did we talk about that here or what it a question at Station 8? I've read so many they're starting to blend in my head.

*The fae sitting on her shoulder starts pulling on her hair. Cassandra's eyes blaze red as she turns to him. "Stop that! We're going now, okay?"

Cassandra <nscoa3099@nsula.edu>
Natchitoches, Louisiana USA
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 02:24:16 PM
IP: 198.79.157.70

**A round blue wormhole opens in the wall, and Mandi falls out of it onto the floor. The wormhole vanishes, and she sits up and checks the remote. **

Yes, I know, I know, ripping off Sliders again....Okay, 5 minutes. There's got to be a better way to sneak past my supervisor.

Doug: Haven't gotten it done yet, but we must be psychic--I'm working on a story with one of the gargoyles getting hit with a
"vice versa" curse of that sort. Actually, I think sleeping by
night would be safer in order to hide better--unless you're well
hidden, being stone by day would make one more of a sitting duck. :)

(The gears in the fic writer's section of my brain start turning.) Just a plot idea to throw out. Say you have a relationship between two gargoyles (e.g. Broadway and Angela). So Angela gets hit with the curse, and she ends up turning to stone at night while Broadway does so during the day. Twilight would be the only time they'd see each other. Does that make anyone else think of the movie "Ladyhawke?"

Oops. Time's up. I'll shut up now. 5...4...3..2...1...

**Mandi points the timer at the wall. A blue light streams from the tip and pools back into the familiar wormhole. She waves, then jumps through just before it fades out.**
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 12:45:51 PM
IP: 131.92.167.42

Sorry, that's Anne Rice's The Mayfair Witches Series (The Witching Hour, Lasher, and Taltos).
Lady Mystic
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 12:38:57 PM
IP: 201-227-64.ipt.aol.com

Hey Ashlar, where did you get your name? I asked this before. Any relation to the myths, or at least related to Anne Rice's Witching, particularly "Taltos"?
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 12:36:19 PM
IP: 201-227-64.ipt.aol.com

(Loud voices engaged in argument are heard from overhead. Suddenly, Doug falls screaming from the sky, lands in the fountain AGAIN, and climbs out soaking wet. He pulls out a hair dryer and begins drying himself off. Nothing falls on top of him this time.)
That's the last time I start a big argument with Lisa while we're in the air. Shoot! Oh well, here's what I have to say.
Green Baron: Didn't my great-grandfather get shot down by you in the first world war? No, wait, that was the Red Baron. Maybe you two are related. Anyway, not to start a Demona debate or anything, but I think she's more Neutral Evil than Chaotic Evil. Her frequent bursts of Lawful or Neutral behavior leads me to believe that. MacBeth is definitely True Neutral.
Ashlar: Stone sleep is precisely the reason why none of the people in our group have garg characters. Humans, yes. Half-elf, yes. Saurial, yes. But no gargoyles because of stone sleep. The closest we've got to having a gargoyle in the party was when we hired a powerful clan of garg mercenaries led by one named Herne (deer-man type) to defend us from a bandit army that we were sure was going to attack the caravan we were running at night. They attacked shortly before sunset instead, and we ended up doing something like that scene in "Awakenings" where the gargs suddenly burst out of stone and start helping the Wyvern castle guards kick Viking ass. Stone sleep is really a problem, I guess that's why so few PCs out there are our kind of gargoyles. Oh well, they can always create a magic item like the amulets those Mayan gargs had to keep stone sleep away if necessary. Speaking of this, I wonder if any reverse-gargoyles are out there. You know, ones that stone sleep at night and are warriors by day? That might make an interesting fanfic.
That's all for now. See ya.
(Doug walks out, wondering how he and Lisa are ever going to patch things up after that fight.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 12:32:51 PM
IP: ad46-156.arl.compuserve.com

AD&D and Gargoyles? My two greatest obsessions! Unfortuneately, any attempts to merge the two have not gone very well. The biggest problem being stone sleep. You don't want to haul around a gargoyle statue for 12 hours a day, but there has to be a balance to add equality to the other player characters. Anybody else have ideas?
Ashlar
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 12:04:54 PM
IP: yktnsk01d01030136.sk.sympatico.ca

Hi everyone!

Just something I didn't get to post when we were still on the topic:
The Three Races> Maybe the actual truth is some complex combination of theories that we've already posted. Or maybe it started out one way and either just happened to fit the other theories or it evolved into a different belief. Maybe the original idea that started the race titles thousands of years ago (which is one or a combination of our theories) evolved into other "myths" (which could be the other theories of ours) to explain the Three Races concept. I've seen some very plausable ideas posted here, and many of them make sense. (However, I've also seen some that don't hold water.) I guess it's just one of those facts lost in history for all time that none shall ever know.

Well, that's enough of that. :)

Something that just popped in my head that I had forgotten about since I first read it: In the Pendragon episode(s) where the flashbacks show Merlyn's life (childhood, political/friendship relations with Aurthor's predecessors, friendship with Aurthor, etc.), particularly the events of Merlyn's childhood that have to do with the hollow hill with the opposing dragons inside, gave me deja'vu and I mean MAJOR-WORD-FOR-WORD deja'vu. Out of curiousity, Pendragon writers, what was you source(s) for those parts? It just seems way beyond too familiar. (I have learned the myths, yes, but this seems word for word copied from my memory.) I hate to ask this but did you copy it from somewhere? Probably not, but I had to ask.
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 09:45:24 AM
IP: 204-141-190.ipt.aol.com

**There is a moment of silence. Then Mandi literally cartwheels through the door (which is odd, since I can't do a cartwheel to save my life)**

YESSS! Relatively Speaking is done! (end shameless plug)

Ahem. Excuse me.

About Timedancer: I'm no authority, but since we're finally shifting off gaming, I had to jump in. I think a big chunk of time was covered in the ep "Fleeting Encounters" seeing as how we seemed to get to "The Promise" so quickly. I don't know about ten years, however.

**Mandi finishes her pointless $.02 and goes to check the ride board**
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 09:16:13 AM
IP: 131.92.167.42

Okay, this has nothing to do with what anyone else is talking about but I was bored and thought I could ask here. Could someone out there who is an athourity on Timedancer please tell us how many years have taken place through each story. Someone said one time the whole first season was ten years, but I was wondering how long each one was......thanks.
Ordell <ordell9425@geocities.com>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 08:40:53 AM
IP: 172-144-129.ipt.aol.com

GREEN BARON - I think that classifying Oberon as "evil" is a bit harsh; he is a royal pain, IMHO, but I'd view him as more simply arrogant, haughty, and a little thoughtless. I see a lot of his attitude towards the younger races (humans and gargoyles) as based on the fact that he's no idea what it's like to be a mortal, sort of like the old-style king who would ruthlessly condemn a peasant to death for stealing a loaf of bread because he couldn't comprehend what it was like to be poor and starving. I'd view him more as "neutral". Madoc's the one who's evil beyond a doubt. Oberon tends to ignore the younger races whenever they don't get in his way, and leaves them to their own devices; Madoc wants to enslave them and bend them to his will.
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 07:51:14 AM
IP: pn3-ppp-125.primary.net

Thanks for compliment, Jackal.
In case any of you don't know what he was talking about, I will soon be making copies of all of the Gargoyles episodes available on CD-ROM. If you can read this message, then you're computer can probably play them. Like I said before, I hope to keep the price under $10, but I have to wait until I find out about Buena Vista's royalty fees before I set a firm price. Yes, I do intend to do this for a slight profit, if possible. If I do not get permission from them, I may not distribute them. The last thing I want is to get in trouble with Disney, and all of their many lawyers just DIEING to get thier legal hands into people like me.
Fire Storm <JeremyCBCD@aol.com>
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 02:12:41 AM
IP: 204-141-190.ipt.aol.com

**A tall, pot-bellied man in a green suit with a blue-green checkered vest and gold pocketwatch attached to the vest pocket enters the TGS CR holding a green Celtic Rosary**

Hello fellow TGS fans. My name is Thomas Forsyth, the Green Baron, and lurker extaordinaire. I am also a fan of TGS and have been for about a year. Some of you know me from the regular CR.

AD&D> This is one of my favorite role-playing Universes. I also am fond of D&D, especially the Mystara and Ravenloft settings. Unfortuynately, I do not have too much of my original stuff, but I have a few things left. My favorite part of teh universe was teh alignment setting. Alignments in Gargoyles is a lot of fun, especially since the characters are dynamic and some are more difficult to discern than others. I see a few of the following:

Elisa Maza: Lawful Good
Demona: Chaotic Evil
Archmage: " "
Puck: " Neutral
Brooklyn: " Good

As for the section on Oberon, he was portaryed as NG, but I see him more as LE or NE.

For Dark Ages, HR2 Charlemagene's Paladins and HR3 Celts would be good reading. Currently, I'd use Mask of the Red Death since it takes place in the 1890s, but it could use a few changes.

BTW, I believe alchemy is a proficiency that is usually reserved for wizards. Asrial is a Rouge with that skill.

Sevarius qualifies under Physician kit for MotRD and he would be NE or CE IMO.

**The Green Baron leaves looking for a green cape and a basket-hilt claymore to match his ensemble.**
Green Baron <greenbaron@hotmail.com>
New Orleans, Louisiana USA
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 01:18:46 AM
IP: 173-213-63.ipt.aol.com

(Doug pole-vaults over the chatroom wall, landing in the fountain. Once again, he crawls out sopping wet.)
Not again!! I can't believe every time...Wait, that's not what I have to say.
On Asrial: I don't know if AD&D has alchemists, I've never seen them as a class. Alchemy is a proficency, though, and Asrial definitely has a high score in it.
Todd: Last I heard, Arneson was at least working for TSR. Oh well, if it turns out they're not working for it, we can always send the rules to their replacements. Sigh... I know about Oberon and Titania in the Monster Mythology. I too am not sure how much resemblance they bear to the characters on Gargoyles (one never can tell with fay). Oh well, we probably won't meet them any time in the campaign, so it doesn't matter that much. Thanks for mentioning it just the same. Just so you know, there's also an entry in that book for a god named Squelaiche that Keith once used for Puck (yes, we encountered our favorite fay once). If anybody wants to use stats in there for Madoc and Maeve, I'd recommend those of the Queen of Air and Darkness for Maeve. We haven't found any that would do Madoc justice. (Perhaps some can be made up.) Thanks for reminding me of these references, and talk to you later.
See y'all!!
(Doug strolls out the door, spreading fountain water all over the chatroom carpet thanks to his wet clothes.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 01:07:33 AM
IP: hd66-175.hil.compuserve.com

<<..the Gargoyles on video CD-ROM: How many people are interested in this?... Speaking [of] the videos, did you get the video, Jackal?>>
I got it yesterday. I was very impressed on how everything was set up! The cover of the CD, as Goliath in stone in his "betcha can't guess what I'm thinking" poisition, and it says "Gargoyles" above that. On the back, you get to see Castle Wyvren at sunset, and on the sides it says, Gargoyles Future Tense, that's soo damn cool. (Future Tense, because that the episode I got). OH and get this.., even on the CD, there's like a thing, ya know it's a picture..., I can't describe it. I'm impressed! Nuf said!
Jackal <Jkal662@aol.com>
Ga Usa
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 11:12:20 PM
IP: spider-tq052.proxy.aol.com

I think there is an alchemists for AD&D Fire Storm. I'm not sure, but I think that one of the great net books or another may have it.

Lanseril
Lanseril <brien@nwpacifica>
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 10:58:17 PM
IP: ppp45.pdx.nwpacifica.net

<<Asrial- 12th Level Fighter (I want to call her a mage, but magic's not exactly what she does). >>
Does AD&D have Alchemists? Asriel would DEFINATELY be in there!
Fire Storm
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 10:33:47 PM
IP: 174-191-59.ipt.aol.com

The "TSR lawsuit" that I had envisioned was one taking place in the Gargoyles Universe, not the real world. I just wanted to make myself clear on that. (Of course, it would only take place after gargoyles had become reasonably accepted by humans, and was imagined as being a consequence of that acceptance).

I believe that Gygax and Arneson are no longer working for TSR. Incidentally, one of the 2nd edition AD&D sourcebooks out there, "Monster Mythology", contains a section on Oberon and Titania, although I'm not sure how much the Oberon and Titania in it are like the ones in "Gargoyles". Just thought that you might be interested.
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 10:20:08 PM
IP: pn1-ppp-04.primary.net

(Doug strolls in with no special effects. Disappointed?)
Sevarius Jr.: I listen to Metallica, too. They're excellent, but I like Van Halen more. Oh well, this is not the place for music debates. Thanks anyway.
Here are some more D&D stats of famous gargoyles:
Thailog: 14th Level Fighter, 19 Str and 20 Con.
Gabriel: 12th Level Fighter.
Griff: 14th Level Fighter.
Una: 15th Level Wizard.
Leo: 13th Level Fighter.
Cavall: Same as Bronx.
Nudnik: 3 HD gargbeast, max hit points.
That's all for now.
(Doug leaves without trumpets or fanfare.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 08:58:26 PM
IP: hd41-223.hil.compuserve.com

Aye Carumba! All of these roleplaying stats are giving me a headache! Let's all just sit down and play a nice friendly game of Magic: The Gathering. No having to deal with Orcs or Margoyles or whatever else is in those type games. All you need is a deck and a friend, you know.

And Doug...Not to try and start anything, but James and the boys of Metallica can kick Eddie Van Halen's scrawny tuckuss any day of the week.
Sevarius Jr.
Seattle , Washington USA
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 08:50:15 PM
IP: client-151-200-125-202.bellatlantic.net

(Doug appears in a blinding flash of light that temporarily makes everyone in the room unable to see, so they only hear him saying the following.)
Laudre: Thanks for the tip about Asrial. Guess I don't know her as well as I thought I did. I'll have her class changed to something like a 12th Level Rogue in my notebook. Also, something I forgot to add to the race attributes: Gargs' Climbing Ability. They can all climb walls naturally as the Rogue ability (starts at 60% chance, gain 3% per level to a max of 96%). Good thing I remembered that. The Lawful tendency is noted, I'd included it in the rules. I just didn't mention it because all my favorite gargs (Brooklyn, Asrial, Lex, etc.) were chaotic and I just didn't think of it at the time. Your idea for a game containing gargs and Highlanders sounds intriguing- A lot like my fanfic universe is turning out (and Catherine Coker's). Hope you soon can tell us more about it.
AotN: Alright, I admit, maybe the level for Thersites is a bit high. I'll drop it to 4th (and then only because of the events in "The Reluctant Hero.") If anybody wants to critique my rules for the gargs any further, just let me know. Perhaps I'll make changes if I see them as valid. (Nobody better tell me Goliath should have a Strength of 10!) Sorry, but I have no idea of the stats for Boudicca as she was only seen in the Avalon eps and so not really that famous. But if I were you, I'd give her the same stats as Bronx, just one less HD and maximum hit points.
Todd: Yes, we have seen the gargoyle descriptions in the Monster Manual here. As someone who actually contributed art to the MM (I drew the Invisible Stalker pic), I in particular was appalled. Oh well, my friends and I found a good compromise in our campaign that keeps both monsters. You'll notice there's also a creature in the MM called a margoyle, an even more evil version of their bad gargoyle creatures. Thanks to a little name -doctoring, those monsters are in our campaign called "spiky margoyles." The MM's bad gargoyle creatures are now called "margoyles," and the gargoyles are the generally good and noble creatures we all know and love. In our campaign, the margoyles were originally created by an evil wizard known as Canmorious, who wanted evil garg-slaves, they got the ability to procreate, and eventually became the awful monsters they now are. Gargoyles remain the generally good and noble creatures they've always been, while being MUCH more powerful than the margoyles are. Keith, hoping the head honchos at TSRs are garg-fans, sent them a copy of this idea and the rules we use for garg PCs. We still haven't heard back from Arneson and Gygax, but we're hoping. I seriously doubt anybody would hit TSR with a lawsuit about the monsters. Getting Disney involved might be too expensive, and they do own the rights to gargoyles. Oh well, GMs and players can easily fit both good and monster gargoyles into their campaigns with ideas like the one above.
That's all for now.
(Billowing fog envelopes the area from a Dry-Ice machine Doug has with him. When it clears, Doug and the machine are gone.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, Texas USA
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 07:23:07 PM
IP: dd63-108.dub.compuserve.com

*Looks at "Thersites: 7th level fighter". Laughs like crazy.*

Btw, it that red doggy garg Budica (sorry, can't spell her name right)?
AotN
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 07:04:44 PM
IP: akron-157-23.sssnet.com

Speaking of fitting gargoyles into AD&D, does anybody feel that the game's description of gargoyles in the Monster Manual/Monstrous Manual (evil monsters who kill for the sheer joy of killing) sounds like something taken from a Quarryman propaganda pamphlet? (In fact, that's precisely why I tend to wonder how appropriate it is fitting "our" gargs into the AD&D universe. I can just see an Anti-Gargoyle Defamation League hitting TSR with one massive lawsuit :)
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 06:31:57 PM
IP: pn5-ppp-223.primary.net

Doug, Cassandra> Well, if you're familiar with the Storyteller system, there's a couple of sets of gargs rules for it floating around on the 'net. I could probably whip up rules for a garg race in GURPS, although I haven't run or played it enough to really be fully confident of my creation yet. Personally, I'm working on a sourcebook for Thrash, based on my fanfic universe, which will include rules for not only Gargoyles but HL-style Immortals, and a whole bunch of neat stuff for them (like Gargoyle-only martial arts, and a big expansion on Thrash's magic system). I'm hoping to have a version for at least playtesting cobbled together by the Gathering.

Those rules for AD&D seem about right, although I don't like AD&D as a system except for one-offs (and when I DM a one-off, character fatality rates used to give my players uncomfortable flashbacks to when we putzed around with Paranoia for a little while. Too bad I don't have a group to play with right now.)

One thing, though... Gargoyles have a strong tendency to be Lawful; I'd make a note of that in the rules. (Not so much following human laws, but they protect these square miles of land from EVERYTHING. No matter *what*.)

Also, I'd personally classify Asrial as a mid-level Rogue of some kind; she's no warrior, and definitely not a level 10+ warrior.
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 06:09:13 PM
IP: p02-24.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

Whoops, addressed that AD&D gargstats post to Laudre when it should have gone to Cassandra!! Sorry!
Also, give Asrial Int of 16.
Later!!
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 04:42:54 PM
IP: 199.174.204.73

(Doug, cured of all wounds thanks to a friendly cleric he knows, walks into the room, carrying a loudly-playing boombox emitting sounds of Van Halen. He says a lot of stuff that nobody can hear for several minutes, then grimaces and shuts the radio off.)
Sorry if I annoyed anyone with that. Here's what I have to say:
Todd: Don't worry about me accusing you of stealing from the Merlin miniseries. In my opinion, that miniseries wasn't very good, and TGS has done a lot better with Arthurian legend so far. Frick and the snail part were the only things in there I enjoyed. It was so historically and legendarally inaccurate! If I have to pick someone's interpretation of Merlin, I'll take TGS's or mine (to be revealed in a future fanfic) over NBC's any day!
Laudre: My friends and I are avid D&D players, and since we're all Gargoyles fans, that's one of the races our GM Keith allows players to be (no one decided to be one because of the Stone Sleep drawback, but we still allow it). For a D&D player in our world, we use the following race rules if they want to be a gargoyle. Same goes for Garg NPCs.
Stat Min/Maxes: Str 10-19. Dex 6-18. Con 11-20. Int 3-18. Wis 3-18. Chr 3-18.
Race Benefits: Infravision to 90', Natural AC of 8 (tough skin), can glide at same movement rate as walking (aerial maneuvers require a Dex or Tumbling check), Sleep in Stone 12 hours out of every day has the effect of a heal spell on them when they wake from it. Natural attack- Claws do 1d6+Str dmg. Some gargs may also have sharp horns (1d4 piercing damage if used in a charge), beaks (1d3 dmg if used to bite), tails (can make a sweeping attack with these to knock enemies down with sucessful hit), or snake-bodies (can constrict for 1d4+Str dmg per round). Gargoyle Clan Leaders also get the ability to emit a powerful primal roar three times per night that all who hear must save vs. paralyzation or be deafened for 1d3 rounds.
Race Drawbacks: While in Stone Sleep, gargoyle character can't do anything on his or her own, and is very fragile (I'm sure you can guess what that means, one solid hit from any weapon takes it out). Also, many garg characters experience fear and prejudice from most humans they encounter.
Alignment: Any allowed, but most gargs have that protective instinct.
Classes: Gargs can be any class except specialist wizards, and we don't use level limits. They may multi-class in any class combination elves can.
Gargoyle Beasts- We only allow these as NPC characters, for obvious reasons. In our game, they have 3-7 HD, and are otherwise just like war dogs except their bite does 1d8+3 dmg and they have Stone Sleep.
Half-Gargoyles- Another race we allow, just because. In this case, they're half gargoyle and half human. They get the same stat min-maxes as half-elves, with all the same bonuses and drawbacks as gargoyles except they get no claw or other appendage natural attacks, their glide movement rate is half their walking one, half infravision benefit, and no primal roar ability. They may be specialist wizards, however, and in fact are often better mages than gargoyles. They can also go multi-class using any combination elves can.
These are the basic rules for gargoyle characters we use in the AD&D system, and they might work for you if that's the role-playing system you use. If you use some other system, please let me know. I might be familiar with it. Description of any garg character is left to the player, they can make their garg look however they want. Due to the diversity of garg genetics, anything is possible. If you want to feature some famous gargs as NPCs, here's what I think of the clan as (only exceptional stats other than Cha noted):
Goliath- 16th Level Fighter, with 19 Str and 20 Con.
Demona- 15th Level Fighter/15th Level Mage, with 18 Int, 20 Con, and 16 Dex.
Brooklyn- 15th Level Fighter with 16 Str and 18 Con.
Lex- 13th Level Rogue with 17 Dex and 18 Int.
Broadway- 14th Level Fighter with 17 Str, 16 Con.
Angela- 12th Level Fighter with 17 Dex, 15 Str, 15 Con.
Hudson- 14th Level Fighter with 18 Wis.
Bronx- Gargbeast with max HP.
Sata- 15th Level Fighter with 17 Dex, Str, and Con.
Graeme and Ariana- 5th and 6th (Ariana is higher) Level Fighters.
Roland- 14th Level Fighter.
Asrial- 12th Level Fighter (I want to call her a mage, but magic's not exactly what she does).
Thersites- 7th Level Fighter.
I'm sure their other attributes can easily be figured out from TGS or Gargoyles itself. Good luck, and let me know if this works for you.
(Doug takes a bow, turns his radio back on, and walks out with a spring in his step as everybody else groans and covers their ears.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 04:40:50 PM
IP: 199.174.204.73

Ahhh, writing.

What I usually do to alleviate the urge to go on and on about a given character is to sit down and write out scenes of introspection and/or dialogue that delve into a character's background and mentality, so that I have a firm grasp of the character and don't need to develop him, her, it, or them ^_^ for myself in an actual story. Sometimes a heavily modified version of one of these scenes eventually winds up in a story, but not often. I've got pages of scenes that did happen in some universe or another, but not necessarily in the one that sees print ^_^.

As for original characters... well, I started out writing HL fanfic, and the nature of the show (with new characters appearing almost every episode who promptly disappear after the closing credits) kind of promotes creating characters who have a significant impact. Right now, the focus of my stories is on my key original character, but then I started writing them because he wouldn't shut up ^_^, and eventually it'll expand to take in where continuity diverges from HL canon, and I'll probably wind up touching base on the divergence from TGC continuity at some point. But the stories I tell are *his* stories, and eventually the canon characters will shift out of the picture.

As for Mary Sue-ism... well, basing a character on yourself doesn't make the character a Mary Sue. Making a character based on yourself with little or no discernable flaws is a Mary Sue. If you've ever had the misfortune to read Trek fanfic by Stephen Ratliff, you've seen the ultimate Mary Sue: Marrissa Flores Picard, a girl who has never made a mistake, has no discernable flaws, and is the commander of a starship by 16, Picard's adopted daughter, heir to a planet, and innumerable other contrived things (and a fleet admiral by 18, IIRC). (I don't recommend reading Ratliff fanfic without the safety of a MiSTing, however. "Time Speeder", in its unaltered form, can kill cats, traumatize children, peel paint from walls, and make "Manos: The Hands of Fate" a pleasant experience.)

On the other hand, some characters can have characteristics of a Mary Sue and still be believable, solid characters (Tara O'Shea's Rowan, for instance), and they won't drive you nuts like most Mary Sues do. After all, the best method I've found for characterization, both of canon characters and my original characters, was to figure out what I have in common with the character and build a sort of relationship with them, so that I can actually understand them. (Too bad I can't do this with real people.)
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 03:32:40 PM
IP: p02-24.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

Theresa> Thanx for clearing the egg issue up. It's been a while since I looked at that article!

Mandi> I understand comepletely about overwriting. There are some characters that I could just go on about forever!
AotN
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 02:50:44 PM
IP: akron-157-41.sssnet.com

Hey, I'm looking for the adaptations to play Gargoyles as a roleplaying game. If anyone has them or knows a website where I can find them, please e-mail me.

Thanks.
Cassandra <nscoa3099@alpha.nsula.edu>
Natchitoches, Lousisiana USA
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 02:12:01 PM
IP: 192.102.223.229

**Mandi comes back in again, having given up on making sense out of Visual Basic's help files.**

Think I'll stick to Yellow for a color; it's easy to read.
Felicia: Actually, I think Coyote would be an interesting one to dangle that temptation in front of Talon, with his connection to the Mazas. All the tricksters we've seen appear to enjoy tempting mortals like that. As for Titania's interest in Fox and Alex--well, for one thing, they're her own daughter and grandson. Not all the halflings might be as directly related to her, and maybe she feels sorry for not telling Fox. I think we're likely to get some more background on Merlin in Pendragon next season, seeing as how there were so many of Arthur's flashbacks incorporated into the early episodes.

AotN: I've also come up with my own original gargoyle, and I've been obscenely tempted to write her into my series, but there's always the big fear of major "Mary Sue"-ishness that's haunted some of my fics in the past. I love people coming up with their own characters when the character manages to interact well with the fanfic universe, but not when the fic series ends up revolving around that character entirely. (Yes, I have a few unfinished fics on my hard drive that have made that mistake.) It's kind of hard to tread that line with original characters by not over-focusing on them, especially ones that are such fun to write. Slightly OT now that I think of it: has anyone come up with a Colorado clan yet?

**Mandi shrugs, tosses a small bag of Jelly Bellys to the masses as a peace offering, and ducks out**
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 10:21:22 AM
IP: 131.92.167.42

I think that I'll stick with Cavall for my signature pic on this site, for now.

MADOC AND MERLIN - Well, as the one who came up with the idea for TGS in the first place, I'll admit the Darth Vader similarity. Confidentially, the thing that scared me the most about this thread was when, just a week or so before we were due to release "Quest's End", NBC did its Merlin mini-series, and used a very similar interpretation of Merlin at odds with his "creator", only using Queen Mab in the role of Madoc. In fact, the Mab of NBC's "Merlin" felt so much like a female version of Madoc vis-a-vis Merlin that I was half-expecting some of our readers to accuse us of copying the mini-series.

OBERON'S CHILDREN - Raven calls Grandmother his "cousin" rather than his "sister" in "Heritage", which is indication enough that the term is not literal. I believe that it's "Oberon's Children" more in the sense of subjects being the figurative children of a ruler. And maybe also because a lot of the fay are like children in terms of maturity, including Oberon himself (though don't tell him that I said that :)
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 08:05:02 AM
IP: pn3-ppp-100.primary.net

**There is a strange electric crackling sound, and the outline of blue and yellow light solidifies into Mandi, holding a soapbox under one arm and a bag of Jelly Bellys in her free hand.**

Sort of forgot to tell Dave I "broke out" last week. (That was a ref to 'The Tomorrow People', FYI.) Here's your soapbox back. **slides it over to Theresa/Starsinger**

About series titles: While I still think the fae history series wouldn't be feasible as an episodic series, I had to get into a debate on the title. How about "Mists of Avalon" or even begging Christine to steal the title "Tales from the Skiff!" (Sorry, Christine, I just loved that fic too much to resist.)

Oh well. That's my more pointless than usual $.02 for the morning. :)

**Mandi decides she'd better go reedit several scenes from RS, waves, and teleports out**
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 07:46:40 AM
IP: 131.92.167.42

On the issue of gestation of the Gargoyles. The
Disney Adventures article stated that it took ten
years for the egg to hatch. That the gargoyles were
fertile every twenty years. They didn't say how long
the female gargoyle carried the undelivered egg before laying it in the rookery. Goliath and Demona
probablely mated in the year 883 or 884. If the eggs
were due to hatch "soon". Soon in my book would be
within a few months. Probable mating time was after
the events in Long Way to Morning.
My two cents worth (Anyone have change for a Dollar?)
Christine my mom just turned 71 this year and is still living in the fifies. You don't do or read things like that. I still love her dearly as she has
always let me go my own way when I was young and trusted to my good sense to know when I was crossing
the line.
Night All
Starsinger
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 03:12:38 AM
IP: proxy-122.iap.bryant.webtv.net

A series devoted just to the Fae and thier history? That would be wonderful !! IThink that is one of the many reasons that the gargoyles are so popular, the way the story incorperates the myriad of mythologies across the globe. That one of the things that makes a culture interesting. The way the define courage, strength, honor, good evil, ect. throught their myths, legends and heros. As far as keeping the the time line is tact and bonding them with the other series thats easy you have many threads to do that . 1) Merlin his 1500 years are not all accounted for. 2). Coyote it would be nice to see the Maza family connection with him. 3) Anansee the Spider I could just see him Derick and the other Mutates tricked by him on the promise of being human. 4) The early relationships of David and Owen, I wonder if Owen was ever tempted to tell Fox about her mother? 5) Fox and Alexander there must be something more to the two of them , there are many other halfing but Titania went out of her way to gather those two I wonder why? Seeing more of the Fae and there excapades would be nice . Well that my $0.02 worth.T.T.N.F
Felicia <2funk@sprynet.com>
Chicago, Illinois United States
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 03:03:27 AM
IP: orend.ped.ehc.com

Laudre> Okay, I understand now. It just seemed at first that when responding to Lady Mistic, you were contredicting what you had previously said, but I get this time.

Christine> I know it sounds weird, but when "Disney Adventures" interviewed Greg, and the cast for Gargoyles, he gave them a list of "gargoyle facts", and that was one of them. It sounded pretty crazy at first, but I guess you just have to use your imagination, like one does when issues like clones and mutants are presented, too. *smiles*

Okay, this time I'm really leaving.
AotN
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 10:55:30 PM
IP: dialup-103-71.sssnet.com

Sevarius Jr.> Hey, I'm still Christian, and I know that God created us first. I'm referring to what goes on it the world of fantasy! ...I mean, I haven't chatted with any gargoyles or elven creatures recently...

Cassandra> I meant to tell you, I think it's really cool whenever people come up with their own gargoyle characters. I've never told anyone this over the internet before, but "AotN", also my chatroom character, has the same character description as my secret gargoyle character, Tasha. When I first created her, she was the Trio's rookery sister who died in the massacre. My ideas for her keep changing; once I decided that she could be resurrected in a similar fashion to Desdemona and Othello, but then decided that was sort of shallow. She is now part of a world that I call "Kediah", which one a seven lands in my little "world", and like Avalon, is hidden from the outside world. I know, it sounds kind of dumb, but anyway...

It's late, and I'm saying funny things. Well, goodnight, all.
AotN
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 10:49:05 PM
IP: dialup-103-71.sssnet.com

<< Laudre> ...but you said you didn't agree with the substance idea. >>

Exactly. I was arguing against it, and providing reasoning for my stance. The whole thing sounds vaguely contrived and a grasp at straws when there are more reasonable explanations that don't require such odd suppositions. Fundamental principle of reasoning called Occam's Razor.
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 10:41:08 PM
IP: p02-25.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

AtoN, re 20-year gestation > It just doesn't add up in my head. If she was pregant in Vows, she would have had to have been at least halfway along, and _something_ should have been showing, but she was wasp-waisted as ever (also, she and Goliath back then seemed to have a much more innocent love thing going on, and the older Goliath didn't react as one might expect if he'd known she was carrying his egg). Besides, a 20-year gestation is just too much. An unrealistic length of time, even allowing that gargs age at half human speed. It would leave their females vulnerable for far too long.

Starsinger> for whatever it might be worth, my mom reads my fics! ; )

Christine <vecna@eskimo.com>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 10:38:53 PM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

Okay, let me make some comments here on recent topics.

A Fae series: Great idea. Just look at the Avalon tour, it was filled with tons of interesting fae. And think of all the new characters you could come up with. As for conflict, who says that the life of a fae can't be complicated? Just look at all the stuff the Weird Sisters have gotten themselves into. Plus, there have been rogue fae--just look at Banshee. There are tons of opportunities with this series.

Oberon: I kind of look upon the fae as a sort of disorganized people. Face it, most of them haven't been to Avalon in ages, and they rarely had any contact with each other in the "real" world. (or at least, that was my impression) The reason that I think Oberon claims leadership is that he's simply the most powerful and most adapt leader for them (plus, if that "Oberon's children" schtick is real, he may be the pappy to some of them). This, of course, doesn't close the door to other possible fae out there with absolutely no allegiance to him. I've been studying some Celtic mythology (possibly for story ideas, I really don't want to end up an evil geneticist like my dad) and they have a belief in the fae, only they exist in a land called the Side. Again, this could be great material for a fae series. There are tons of possibilities.

The Races: I love the Gargoyles, but I'm still a humanist. I don't give a crap who was created first, by God, evolution, or the ever-loving Buddha, we humans are #1. First race all the way, baby. I ain't sayin' we trash the other two, just as long as they know their role as #2 and #3.

And a side note, on a discussion that goes way back, to the last two weeks...About why the Banshee loved Rory...Like I said, I've been studying Celtic mythology. And there's proof that Cuchulain was at least part fae. Maybe Banshee saw a kindred spirit. Take it for what it's worth.

Thanks for lettin' me rant people. I gotta go mutate my science project now. Peace out.
Sevarius Jr.
Seattle , Washington USA
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 10:34:43 PM
IP: client-151-200-125-207.bellatlantic.net

Laudre> ...but you said you didn't agree with the substance idea. No one is saying that gargoyles AREN'T flesh, although there was the question of stone. Anyway, stone, organic material, or whatever you want to call it, is still stronger than human flesh. Heck, even their skin is thicker than humans.

On the "Fae History" issue> I have to agree with Lady Mistic in that it would definitely dive us all a bit deeper into the unknown waters of the fae world. *sigh* Between Gargoyles and Shakespeare, there just isn't enough Puck there!! I LOVE Oberon's Children. But, I guess the big question in this debate is, how long could a series like this last? I mean, at first glance, a title like "Fae History" doesn't exactly bring a very intricate plot to mind. It's a rather broad topic.
However, to what some are saying about it "not being a part of 'Greg's Master Plan'", I say, "Oh, please." Do you really think that when Greg was sketching out plots for the show that he even considered TGS? I mean, our writers are coming up with whole new ideas. Things Greg probably never thought of. What's wrong with another new series?!
AotN
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 10:31:15 PM
IP: dialup-103-71.sssnet.com

I love this site, but a recent change made has become annoying. I download the archives in the entirety to have on my disk. Recent change has broken my ability to have a working replication on my disk. It goes looking for specific directories. If this is just me I apologize, but for the collectors this could be annoying.
Troy Guffey <troyguffey@hotmail.com>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 09:34:55 PM
IP: wbrg-usr193.internetland.net

All right people! Where is it? My furfoots want their bed back. Please.
In regards to new series. I would like to know what
happened between Madoc and Oberon and is Titania the
woman in the middle? If first suspected Maddox in Partnership, but not that he was Fae. I only confirmed he was up to no good when He and Maeve showed up at the warehouse and were not too upset that the raid had been prevented.
I believe a rotating series might be good. Going from FH to BG to NO to FT. The stories could have
a long or short arc depending on what's going on in
their back up universe. After all, when Ragnarok is
fini, that would be a perfect time for the NO's to put in an appreance.
If I may vote, I would love to read you fanfic. Just
remember, I'm probably old enough to be your mother.
Horrible thought I know. There are a lot of things in the Gargoyles universe I'd never show my mom. Some of you worry about sex. Some worry about violence. Some try to balance both out. Part of the
problem is we are dealing with situations could be
based on real life and real life is never neet. Life
Happens. It is not neat or clean or pretty at times.
It can be loud or messy or totally confussing. One
thing I have liked about fanfic is many times I am left thinking about your characters, your universe, and you point of view. It can be enlightening. There is even an Adult sfi/fantasy webring (check out Christine Morgans site for a link to it) It has
some unusual points of view on some of our regular
tv show.
Later world, if I can't find the furfoots bed, I can
at least feed the little darlings.

Starsinger.
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 09:24:41 PM
IP: proxy-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net

(Doug comes into the room on a wheelchair, only to be greeted by an angry Demona armed with laser gun. He throws up his hands and says, "Uh, I'm a friend of Angela, grew a mustache, put on a few pounds, broke several bones in my body, you'll make her very angry if you shoot." The gargoyle sorceress growls at him, then flies off, looking for God knows what.)
Thank God I look just like Richard Harrisson except for the above details! That lady (using the term loosely) almost killed me!! Oh well, here's what I have to say this time:
Todd: I always knew Maddox and Mavis were bad news, but never suspected they were not really human. And I never thought Madoc was Merlin's dad until "Quest's End." Darth Vader syndrome working on you guys once again!! I always thought Maddox was an attempt to bring back all the good bad guy Xanatos used to be (ditto for Mavis and Fox). Oh well, I was wrong. I like them better the way they turned out, anyway. It's always nice to see evil fay. Otherwise, people forget they exist.
That's all for now.
(Doug wheels himself back out the door, bumping into the same soapbox he tripped over before. He growls angrily, screams at someone to please pick up their discarded goods, and heads out.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 09:09:00 PM
IP: hd42-142.hil.compuserve.com

Well to all those against the Fae series, don't forget that I also said that "...It will bring depth to all our unanswered questions about fae (and it's probably a good source for gargoyle history as well). It's what Season 2 needs if TGS does want another series. Although, if TGS isn't looking for a fifth series, I'm sure they'll do just fine incorporating fae history into the TGS series. But TGS does need to mention fae history more (which I'm sure they will), and a Fae series could help."

So think about this then. No matter how much we may like the mystery of the unknown in accordance to the fae, don't forget that we need to know at least a little more than we do right now so we will better understand the reality of fae. With the choices Greg has made on additional spin-offs I found my series to be the best of the bunch. It fits in the best for Ragnarok. The other spin-offs are excellent in themselves, but I don't see where they fit in as snuggly as a Fae series could have. As I've said, it was only an answer to Merlin's question. While I believe it could have done TGS some good I also understand the amount of work and problems it would create. If anything, I could always write fan-fic on Fae History series. This would be interesting, and would be fun to research. Not a bad idea for a first try at fan-fic! Anyways, it was the thought that counts, and I sure got you thinking, ehh! ;)
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 08:28:14 PM
IP: 171-176-177.ipt.aol.com

Interestingly enough, Duval is, in Greg's MasterPlan, also the Fisher King (the traditional guardian of the Holy Grail) - I wonder how he reconciles his organization's villainous activities with being the custodian of a relic symbolic of goodness and purity.
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 08:27:54 PM
IP: pn3-ppp-134.primary.net

>(Although I've always assumed, from when I first read the >MasterPlan, that it was King Arthur and Sir Griff whom Greg had >planned to be the real bane of the Illuminati).

I guess the Illuminati get around to making a lot of enemies Todd. The Manhattan Clan, Arthur, the Bad Guys. Duval must be a very unlikeable person, at least in Greg W's Master Plan.

And in response to your question. Since I was a member of TGS for over a year, I already knew what Madoc and Maeve really were. But if I wasn't I don't think I would've figured it out by then.

And I agree that a Fay series would take a lot of the mystery away from the Fay.

I personally think the Fay are the first race to achieve sentiece. I have always believed that energy came first, much like the sun. I mean take Lorien from Babylon 5 for example, he is a being of pure energy that can take the form of a humanoid. The same goes for the Vorlons, don't ask me to try to explain the Shadows. Anyway, I think the fay are a lot like that, except that most are not as mature as Lorien.

Thats enough for now.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky <Maddox55@aol.com>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 08:04:00 PM
IP: spider-tl031.proxy.aol.com

>(Although I've always assumed, from when I first read the >MasterPlan, that it was King Arthur and Sir Griff whom Greg had >planned to be the real bane of the Illuminati).

I guess the Illuminati get around to making a lot of enemies Todd. The Manhattan Clan, Arthur, the Bad Guys. Duval must be a very unlikeable person, at least in Greg W's Master Plan.

And in response to your question. Since I was a member of TGS for over a year, I already knew what Madoc and Maeve really were. But if I wasn't I don't think I would've figured it out by then.

And I agree that a Fay series would take a lot of the mystery away from the Fay.

I personally think the Fay are the first race to achieve sentiece. I have always believed that energy came first, much like the sun. I mean take Lorien from Babylon 5 for example, he is a being of pure energy that can take the form of a humanoid. The same goes for the Vorlons, don't ask me to try to explain the Shadows. Anyway, I think the fay are a lot like that, except that most are not as mature as Lorien.

Thats enough for now.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky <Maddox55@aol.com>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 08:03:51 PM
IP: spider-tl031.proxy.aol.com

<<Speaking the the videos, did you get the video, Jackal?>>
Checking my P.O.Box hasn't even crossed my mind until now. I'll go check after I sign off.
<<jackal, I don't know if I will publish my fan-fic or not. One thing for sure, it is definately NOT for kids...>>
Man, publish it. I've made the decsion to publish my fics, wither they're accepted or not, I don't know. I believe the complexity of the story is true to "Gargoyles". If not "X-files". Well in any case, i hope they're enjoyed in some form or another...., I'll be back later.

Jackal <Jkal662@aol.com>
Ga Usa
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 07:49:38 PM
IP: spider-tr042.proxy.aol.com

MERLIN MISSY - Yes, that's another good reason not to do a "fay history" spin-off; it would deprive the Third Race of a lot of their mystery.

Another question that I thought I'd put to the readers: when did you first start suspecting that Nicholas Maddox was not truly human, and when did you suspect (to those of you who've read "Quest's End") that he was Merlin's father?
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 07:29:10 PM
IP: pn3-ppp-134.primary.net

When the new season begins. I would like it if Coldstone, Coldfire and Coldsteele could return, and Coldstone and Coldfire find oyt they have a son on Avalon. What do the rest of you think?
Lawrence Stone <st1@bright.net>
Chillicothe, Ohio usa
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 07:22:04 PM
IP: main-webcache.bright.net

**Mandi comes in, her clothes and hair singed and tattered, but otherwise intact. Dave, who's in just as bad shape, pokes his head in, laughs, tosses a note at her, and ducks out before she can do anything.**

Okay!! Who snitched on me to Demona? I want names now!!!!

Anyway...Lady Mystic: My problem with having a fae history series isn't the subject matter, but the scope of the subject matter; if you wanted to keep it semi-chronological or have a common thread, you might primarily limit it to the history of one or two of Oberon's Children, with others appearing along the way when their histories cross.

Also, who's to say we might not get a dose of fae history with Ragnarok around the corner? Several people have already said that there will probably be plenty of fae history incorporated into TGS Season 2 anyway. I've got to agree with Merlin on that one.

Doug: No, that's pretty much how the real Dave acts. Although sometimes I wonder if he escaped from a comic book. Yeah, more plot threads might bring more reader attention, but then that creates more danger of having a similar problem that TGS had in the wake of the Rising--several new plot threads popping up in the beginning and having to be discarded to get to the "Big One," so to speak, near the end.

(reads note) Oops. Starsinger, if you want your soapbox back, I think Dave just stole it while I was ranting.

**Mandi waves and turns towards home, deciding to let Dave fend for himself and the soapbox so she can work on fanfic**
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 07:06:41 PM
IP: p1-13.netgsi.com

*Outside the room, you hear a clattering sound, as if from an old-fashioned typewriter. You hear a *ching* and Merlin dashes in,,thumbtacks a piece of paper to the wall, and dashes out again.*

"Fay Series: I'd have to throw in my two cents against this. Forget the Master Plan; I just don't see it as feasible on an episodic basis. TD only covers forty years. For this, we'd be talking at least a thousand. Besides, an all-fay, all-the-time series would make them less ... special. For me, the best thing about Oberon's Children on the show was how much they did in such few appearances. Puck (as himself) appeared four times out of seventy-nine episodes. Of all the fay, the Three Weirdos appeared the most, and what people commented on about them when they did was their mystery. Who were they? What did they want? The answers turned out to be less than we'd hoped. I like the notion of the Third Race popping in and out of the series we have, and the series to come. I'd rather see occasional flashbacks and off the cuff references than a series about everything they did long ago. It would be like having an X-Files spinoff that chronicled everything from the day after Roswell. That would answer the questions, but spoil the fun of the masquerade."
Merlin Missy <mrwilson@umr.edu>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 06:54:45 PM
IP: speedo.physics.umr.edu

MY OWN TWO CENTS ON THE PROPOSED FAY HISTORY CONCEPT - Since I'm presently a member of the TGS staff, I should probably be staying out of this - but my own feeling is that the Third Race don't need their own separate spin-off. "Fay history" strikes me as something that would be more likely an adjunct to the established cycles. ("Gargoyles" has already this season established some renegade fay among its main villains, their activities spill over into "Pendragon" a bit, and let's not forget the vantage that time travel will be giving Brooklyn in "TimeDancer").

BAD GUYS - I'd always assumed that the Bad Guys were going to be primarily going after mundane criminals, based on the description that Greg gave (he particularly stated that the bank robbers from "City of Stone Part One" would have been among these). On the other hand, Greg also stated that Duval and the Director were enemies, and we know from "Revelations" that the Illuminati is a silent partner to organized crime. So, maybe....

(Although I've always assumed, from when I first read the MasterPlan, that it was King Arthur and Sir Griff whom Greg had planned to be the real bane of the Illuminati).
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 06:45:11 PM
IP: pn3-ppp-134.primary.net

Is TGS worth it? - Absolutely. You are helping to keep Gargoyles alive. TGS keeps the characters from becoming stale. New ideas and scenario's are played out, and new information is given for fans to chew over in their minds. I doubt that my interest in Gargoyles would have lasted as long as it has without the influx of ideas that TGS has given me to think about. Don't take criticism too close to heart. A little criticism helps. Others might see something you don't. Every little bit of input helps. TGS is doing a good job, and as time goes on, it improves. I am sure that season two will top season one, just as I am sure season three will top season two. I eagerly wait for the next season of TGS.

Three Races - I think that Gargoyles are the oldest race, the first race. It would explain the compulsion to protect humans, to watch over the younger race of humans. Fay are the third race because even though they have extremely long life spans and lots of power, the way that they employ the power suggests that they are immature (with one or two exceptions), that they have yet to learn the lesson of "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" that Gargoyles seem to know and humans are slowly learning.

Oberon refered to himself as lord of the third race because he was addressing a gathering of gargoyles. I always assumed that he knew that Gargoyles refered to his people as the third race.

As for which series should be next to join TGS, I would eliminate Future Tense. I think that it will be incorporated into Timedancer. Otherwise there will be a gap in Brooklyn's forty year saga.

New Olympians also seems to be out. Ragnarok is happening in season two. (Ragnarok, if my memory serves me right, is the final war of the norse gods that will engulf the world, bring the end of the universe, the death of the old gods, and the birth of a new race.) A war of that magnitude will probably spill over into the human world. If the world is in a war, I doubt that the New Olympians would pick that moment to reveal themselves. I think that they would wait to see who wins. If humanity wins, then they are faced with the same problem they had to begin with. If the Unseelie win, then the humanity that they hate so much is eliminated or enslaved, so the need to reveal themselves is gone. New Olympians would be good to appear sometime in season three as an after-effect of the Rising and Ragnarok.

So what's left? Bad Guys. It seems like the most likely series to appear. Fang is free. Robyn has broken out of prision. The Illuminati is a major threat in TGS. Ragnarok is about to break out. That is going to be occupying the attention of the Gargoyles for a while. So who is going to keep up the fight against the Illuminati? Who is going to protect the innocent around the who are going to be threatened by the coming war? Who is going to help fight? The Bad Guys. (The series can keep this name but I doubt that the actual cast would refer to themselves by that name.)
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 05:31:42 PM
IP: 12.new-york-25.ny.dial-access.att.net

*sigh* I understood what you were saying about the "made of" idea, and I was pointing out that Gargoyles are made out of FLESH. FLESH. You cut a gargoyle, he or she will bleed. Flesh. Blood. Bones.

Beyond that, I find the idea both unnecessarily complicated and fundamentally silly. Pardon the expression, but I've always gotten the impression that Gargoyle thinking is more concrete than that. (No, that's not a pun :P.) And it's from a Gargoyle that we heard the three races concept spoken.

Moving right along...

You've explained your reasoning behind the fae history series rather well. I'm not denying that it would be interesting, it just doesn't seem necessary or even like it would make a good addition, at least not as a part of TGS. It's really the kind of thing that would make good independent fanfic, but would be exceedingly difficult to sustain a connection to the main series. I'd rather see a series that did figure into Greg's Master Plan in some way.

On the Greg issue, don't forget that Gargoyles was primarily Greg's vision, although others, such as Michael Reaves, made significant contributions, of course. One of TGS' stated goals, especially early on, was bringing something following the Master Plan to the fans, and continue the story better than TGC did. Obviously, it's already deviated significantly from the Plan, but I think the staff should be looking at realizing the remaining series before creating new ones. Beyond that, I think it would be supremely arrogant of the staff to believe that they could do a better job with Greg's creation that Greg could and did; I stated many of the ways the first season fell short in my season review.
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 05:07:43 PM
IP: p02-48.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

(BA Felton, GM of an RPG group in a certain hilarious comic walks in, looking around.)
The Knights of the Dinner Table are missing a player: Dave!! We heard he might be in here. Where is he? Where is he?
(Doug hobbles in on crutches, still really bandaged and banged up, and advises him to look for Mandi. BA nods and leaves.)
Sorry, Mandi, your weird friend seemed a lot like a comic strip character who entertains me a lot, so I had to say that.
Don't really wanta comment on the Fae history thing, but since I'm not scheduled to work and still suffering from writers' block (these cases usually go away after three days, it's been two), so nothing else to do. My feelings on it? Both the pro and con sides make good points. Pro's case is better in my opinion (thanks to the statement by Lady Mystic). I think the idea sounds kinda intriguing. But of course, the series might create hundreds of story threads they'd have to tie up and continue the story indefinitely, getting TGS more reader attention. That might be nice for them, and us. My vote for a new series, if they decide to do one, goes to FH, with BG and NO as alternates.
That's all for now.
(Doug hobbles toward the exit, cursing as he trips over a discarded soapbox. He gets back up, glares at the soapbox, shakes his head, and walks on out of the room.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 04:46:30 PM
IP: hd79-112.hil.compuserve.com

Taleweaver> Look at Maive in assotiation with Cu Chullain as one example. And a Fae/Fae History series could also cover half-breeds. We have seen so much in association to the Fae of course there would be interesting things to see.

Laudre> Look at what you've just said. Stone and a biological substance similar to stone are basically the same in reference to the substance idea. And lets just point out that the concept revolves around what defines each race: a stone-like subtance for gargoyles, flesh for humans, and intangible matterial for Fae magic. It's symbolic, get it now?

To anyone that agree with Laudre and Mandi Ohlin> As for my Fae/Fae History series idea, it DOES connect the TGS series. Right now a lot is going to revolve around the Fae with The Rising, my suggested series would connect what's happening in Pendragon, Gargoyles, and Timedancer (TD because it is acquiring more Fae characters and it would explain the relation between The Weird Sisters and The Pheonix Gate - remember the TD intro episodes.) together, while explaining things at the same time. It will also connect DA with the other series because we might see some gargoyle history in the Fae series and some Fae in that time period might have passed by Wyvern or might have something to do with what's going on or will go on in DA. It could be chronological in a sense (or similar to how flashbacks were done in Pendragon) and center around not every fae but at least the ones crucial to the other series: Umbriel, Maive, Maddox, Oberon, Titania, Puck, The Weird Sisters, Merlin, Nimue, and so on. Then we would have a better idea of who they really are in a more personal way. It would also be easier to understand just how they fit into history - Gargoyles world and Real world. Also, the series could take place in the past as well as the present and maybe (iffy though) the future, or at least we could see glimpses of the future through the fae with precognision (like Merlin). That way we could better connect how the past fits in with the present. It works beautifully with the other 4 TGS series, it could work for a Fae series.

And as for the Greg thing, I believe TGS has gone beyond what Greg did or plans to do. I think TGS can make some of their own decisions now. Some of you people who keep saying that TGS is drifting too far away from Greg's Plan could actually be holding TGS back from becoming greater than they are. Those were Greg's ideas and TGS follows them the way they feel they should, but you shouldn't keep a collar around TGS's neck that says they are under Greg and that they work for him in some way. Let TGS improve where Greg left off. Don't let Greg's still forming ideas be the boundaries for TGS. They're doing great so far aren't they? They got there on their own with only Greg's ideas as a reference, I think we should let TGS become individuals instead of Greg's followers. If we don't, it may just hold them back in the long run.

It's good to hear that some of you agree with my proposal. Feel free to explain your reasons for supporting my idea, that way others will understand the importance of the Fae History series. Even if people decide not to go along with this concept at least they will have a better understanding of why I suggested it. Thanks! :D
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 04:27:57 PM
IP: 170-203-98.ipt.aol.com

**The door opens, and Mandi comes in, hands over her ears. Behind her comes her weird friend Dave, who is intentionally getting on her nerves by telling her every paintball story he knows. She opens up a pocket universe, pulls out Demona's favorite laser rifle, and points it at his head. Dave shuts up.**

Okay. I had to put in my two cents on the fae history discussion. Personally, I don't think a fae history series would really work, for the same reasons that Laudre pointed out: that seems to stray off Greg's Master Plan big time, IMHO.

I also think it would be more interesting to see some of the mischief that Oberon's Children got themselves into more recently--stuff we didn't see prior to the Gathering. (Has a vision of Coyote and Raven on a road trip and almost drops the laser rifle) Hmm. Naaah, that should be saved for fanfic too. **nods to Nancy Brown for her wonderful fics on Titania's history**

I think one of the big problems with a fae history series is that with all of Oberon's Children, it's hard to make it follow any sort of chronological timeline. Such a series would more likely be a random collection of stories.

BTW, if Demona shows up asking where her laser rifle got to--you didn't see me. All right, Dave, move it!!

**Dave runs out the door, and Mandi follows, shaking her head at the strange people she has for friends. :)**
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 03:54:04 PM
IP: 131.92.167.42

*scratches head* Ok, maybe I'm just slow, but how would a "fae history" series tie more into the main TGS series than DA or TD do? Even Pendragon, which is happening concurrently with TGS:G, didn't really tie directly into it for most of the season. I can certainly see NO and, to a lesser extent, Bad Guys tying directly into the main series, and Bad Guys even crossing paths with Pendragon every so often. Especially since I can only imagine that NO would be set primarily in New York, where the main series is.

This "fae history" idea would, for me, irrevocably widen the already sizable gap between TGS and Greg's Master Plan; I've always seen Oberon's Children as being background material, and it would take a lot to maintain relevance to TGS when you're dealing with these stories. All of the other series deal with characters introduced and established in the original Gargoyles series; BG, NO, and FT are the ones that go farthest away, for various reasons, but they're still far closer than any "fae history" idea.

Three races> As for that idea about "hardness" or what they're made of for indications of where they are in the scale of races, let me be as blunt as possible: it sounds like something out of a bad fanfic. Why? The Gargoyles are not made of stone; they're made of flesh, as is everything else in the animal kingdom. Greg has said time and again that they don't actually turn to stone, but an organic substance that has many stonelike qualities (including durability, if there was enough left to build Coldstone after a thousand years).
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 03:21:25 PM
IP: p02-48.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

A Fae series? I don't know. I mean, what struggles could a fay have. What jeopardy can befall someone who's pure magic? The thing about all adventure is that the protagonists put themselves at risk, sometime mortal risk. But the fay aren't in any real jeopardy.
Taleweaver <rdfootman@csupomona.edu>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 03:18:09 PM
IP: 134.71.30.89

Lady Mystic: A Fae series is a great idea! I'm changing my vote. It also goes along with the fan-fic I'm writing about my alter ego here. *SHAMELESS PLUG* Cassandra is a 3000+ year old halfling gargoyle raised by humans in Troy (before the Greeks wreaked the place). She was taught by the fae to use her magic and has been having adventures with them ever since. *END OF SHAMELESS PLUG* Besides, an on-going fae series would allow us a chance to see more of Puck as Puck and more of another favorite trickster, Coyote.
Cassandra <nscoa3099@alpha.nsula.edu>
Natchitoches, Lousisiana USA
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 02:46:46 PM
IP: 192.102.223.229

Races> Now that I'm thinking about it, the One-Eyed Squid is probably the most accurate in this debate, although I still feel that Lady Mistic's and my theories are very possible. There is evidence that the terms of race were/are used universally, which can be found in the first episode with Oberon and Titania (I can't remember the title of it). Upon returning to Avalon, Oberon refers to himself as "Oberon, Lord of the Third Race, Ruler of Avalon". Therefore, the names being familiar to most of the races, it would have to be based on something as simple and understandable as substance.

Christine> About the eggs, why do you think it's so impossible to believe that Demona was pregnant during the "Vows" flashback? The way I see it, signs of a female's maternity probably don't show up until later in the pregnancy, since it's stretched out over a span of twenty years, so I think it's very believable, just rather shocking from a human perspective.

Lady Mistic> I think a Fae History would be an incredible series to start!! It's a very interesting topic!
AotN
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 01:40:10 PM
IP: akron-157-20.sssnet.com

Oh yeah, FYI the thing that confused me on Samson's origin is that I have a pic that I downloaded, from who knows where, of an Elisa & Goliath gargoyle said to be their son, Samson. I know it's related to a totally diferent fan-fic, but the pic just stuck in my mind when I read the name, that's all.
Lady Mystic
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 01:34:42 PM
IP: 170-203-98.ipt.aol.com

Todd and Laudre> Thanks for clearing that up, but it still doesn't change my opinion of a FT series. BG and FT seem a little too unrelated to what's going on right now in TGS to be integrated easily. (But I'm not saying it's altogether not possible to incorporate them.) I still think if another TGS series were to be considered, a Fae History series would work out very well. What do you think?
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 01:27:52 PM
IP: 170-203-98.ipt.aol.com

<< For Samson to exist magic or science would have to be invovled. >>

Samson is not Goliath's grandson through any children he might hypothetically have with Elisa, but rather is the youngest of Broadway and Angela's children (Artur, Gwenyvere, and Samson). Just thought I'd clear that up.

Gargoyle gestation> My best guess is that the eggs hatched within a year or two of being brought to Avalon, given that Angela is biologically 21 (in human terms) in December of 1996. This would mean that the eggs were laid in the mid 980's, when Goliath and Demona are in their early twenties, since I believe Greg said that Gargoyle eggs take ten years to hatch. (I could be wrong; I do know that female Gargoyles lay eggs every twenty years, provided that they are fertilized by mating, which would give one Gargoyle female four or five children in her life.) At any rate, even if Angela's egg was laid in the mid 970's, Goliath and Demona would be physically mature enough for it in human terms.
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 01:13:03 PM
IP: p02-07.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

LADY MYSTIC - Actually, Greg said that Samson would be Goliath's grandson via Angela (the youngest of Angela and Broadway's three children) - no connection biologically to Elisa.
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 01:08:15 PM
IP: pn10-ppp-147.primary.net

TGS STAFF (and Artists): Of course your series is worth it! You've continued where a thought-provoking and inspirational TV show ended, rather embarrassingly, and have done it very successfully. You've picked up the pieces they left scattered about the floor, fitted them together, and filled in the missing spaces. Yet you have gone beyond much more than that. You've created a world that Disney only had begun to create. In your attempt to follow in Disney's and Greg's footsteps you've created new footsteps that others want to follow in. You have strong fans. You have people that are writing fan-fiction on YOUR work, that's got to account for something. I believe, and I'm sure others will agree, your work to be not Fan-fiction but the Real Thing, the original fiction. You have done an exceptional job doing this while continuing Real Life affairs. The amount of time, effort, and responsibility you have put into this job that was probably once considered a hobby was well worth it. You have done a great job grasping what the Gargoyles world is like and portraying it through prize storytelling. And you have accomplished great skill and have done a great job at combining historical and cultureal facts and fiction, mythology, and the Gargoyles world (among other things) with you're complex storyline. I commend you!

<<The Races: I allways thought that the 1st 2nd 3rd was refering tho the substence they were made of. Gargoyles are the 1st because they are made of stone which is the hardest subtence. Humans are the 2nd because we're made of flesh which is softer then stone, and the fay are the 3rd race since the're made of magic which is intangible. ~The One Eyed Squid>> Maybe. Sounds probable enough. I don't believe that all three races use a different order among themselves. If you think about it, the Race titles do seem to be official terms just as we are called humans and Fae are called Oberon's Children and such. And I believe that the Fae are older than the human race, but I'm not quite sure who's older: gargoyles or fae. I hope we all can agree that gargoyles ARE older than humans. Although AotN's theory isn't bad, it makes sense also. Maybe the actual truth is some complex combination of the three theories (mine, AotN's, and One Eyed Squid's). Or maybe it started out one way and either just happened to fit the other theories or it evolved into a different belief. (I've got other things to say so I'll leave it at that and pick it up later.)

<<Now there's a thought: if you the TGS fans had your say, what would you choose for the next series released, *if* a new series gets made: Bad Guys, New Olympians, or Future Tense?" ~Merlin Missy>> Actually, I'd say a "Fae History" series would be a better choice. Bad Guys never appealed to me, and I don't see how it could be any good as a written series. It seems better equipped for an animated show, and with what people like best about TGS and Gargoyles (that being the adult-concepts and centering on historical,cultural, and mythic content) it wouldn't fit in. New Olympians, while is an interesting story concept in itself, could drag the quality of the other 4 series down if it doesn't fit into TGS exactly the right way. The way Gargoyles made them seem like was a completely different race from all three races. From what I've gathered at s8, NO are fae half-breeds, but they don't seem to fit in with the half-breeds that we have already run into in TGS. Having a NO series could be too risky unless it was carried out as a completely seperate series from the 4 integrated series TGS already has. Maybe as an NO history thing. Future Tense, the way Todd explained it is not the same as Timedancer. This is interesting, but since Brooklyn is occupied timetraveling this could cut too much away from Timedancer. Greg also stated that it's not phisically possible for Goliath and Elisa to have kids naturally. For Sampson to exist magic or science would have to be invovled. However, to return to Brooklyn, the only way the FT series would be worth it without cutting into TD (so it doesn't ruin the quality of TD) would have to be if it was an alternate reality series. Based on Brooklyn's age in 1996, he wouldn't live to see the FT time. So if TGS doesn't want to cut into TD and still wants to keep the feel of the FT idea, too much of it will have to be changed. That's why I say a Fae History series is worth it. It would help out in what's going to happen in Ragnarok. It will explain the Seelie and Unseelie histories and characters better and in more detail than just incorporating these things in the 4 series. A whole additional series that could devote its whole time to the history of the fae that's led to this point in history today. It will bring depth to all our unaswered questions about fae (and it's probably a good source for gargoyle history as well). It's what Season 2 needs if TGS does want another series. Although, if TGS isn't looking for a fifth series, I'm sure they'll do just fine incorporating fae history into the TGS series. But TGS does need to mention fae history more (which I'm sure they will), and a Fae series could help.
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 12:33:38 PM
IP: 170-203-98.ipt.aol.com

I'd always assumed, myself, that having Oberon call himself ruler of the "Third Race" was just a translation convention, similar to the characters in those 10th century flashbacks speaking English. (Let's face it, given the fact that Oberon has an ego the size of a small planet, he'd never seriously view himself as "No. 3" :)

I think that Greg said something about nine months to a year taking place between the mating and the egg-laying.
Todd Jensen <merlyn@ninenet.com>
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 12:23:15 PM
IP: pn10-ppp-147.primary.net

Eggs > I don't think they'd carry their eggs for twenty years before laying them. In Awakenings, Goliath tells Katherine that they'll hatch soon, so that probably means within a couple of years. That would mean they were laid almost ten years ago, and conceived almost 20 would have meant that Young Demona from Vows would have had to have been preggers.

TGS worthwhile? Yes, very! The project itself, and the monumental effort, organization, and cooperation it represents, is tremendously worthwhile! As for the critics, well, not every fan of the show liked every episode, either. Can't please everyone. It would be a shame to see TGS end because of the opinions of a few. It should go on as long as the TGS staff are finding it personally rewarding enough to continue, be that from internal creativity and pride in their work or external support and encouragement from the readers.
Shameless plug -- click on my name to visit the official website of Curse of the Shadow Beasts, my debut novel ; )
Christine <vecna@eskimo.com>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 12:01:22 PM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

Ordell> Yeah, but that's still fifteen years for a gargoyle to age before they see the generation that they brought forth hatch. Beisdes, no matter how they age, I'm sure that the years don't seem to pass by much faster than they do for us, you know? Of course, in the world of J.R.R. Tolkien, humans seem like flowers that wilt an die within a season compared to the elves, who live for hundreds of years. *shrugs*

About the Three Races> Here's how I always thought it worked; try to follow me now. Think back to when the world was new, or at least to the first gargoyles. I feel that the three races is their way of making the diversity in the world easier to comprehend. I mean, the first race for them was their own kind, gargoyles. Then humans eventually moved in, took over the "savage, unoccupied" lands (gee, sort of reminds me of Native Americans...), and built their castles, etc.---> the second race. From the humans they heard stories of creatures of pure magic, the fae (or fay, or whatever)---> the third race. So, like any traditional belief (again, I'm thinking of Native Americans as another example), this was probably something that had been passed down through gargoyle history for years, and it was just assumed that it was known to everyone, just as it was known to every gargoyle. Sorry if this is just babble, but I tried my best to explain my own personal views.
Doug> Btw, I like your thoughts on Oberon's Children and angels. *smiles* A rather whimsical and pleasant idea.
AotN
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 09:59:12 AM
IP: akron-157-20.sssnet.com

The three races> The only time we hear this delineated is during "The Mirror", by Broadway, who says, "You know... Gargoyles, humans, and Oberon's Children." He's most likely reciting what he learned in the rookery. He even says that everybody knows about the three races, because likely it was common knowledge among Gargoyles of his time and probably fairly common thought among humans who associated with Gargoyles.

Although this "three races" thing does clearly have some real meaning in the Gargoyles universe (in "Ill Met by Moonlight" Oberon refers to himself as Lord of the Third Race), I doubt that all three races would use the same order. Gargoyles refer to themselves as the first race and humans as the second because of who they have contact with the most. Humans who were aware of all three races would probably refer to humans as the first race and Gargoyles the second. I'd guess that the fae would generally refer to themselves as the first race, but use the appellation "Third Race" when dealing with Gargoyles out of a recognition of Gargoyle lore.
Laudre <laudre@null.net>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 09:12:10 AM
IP: p02-07.stamford.dialin.ntplx.com

In The Mirror the only reference to order of the races was by Broadway. I believe the order was Humans, Gargoyles, and Oberon's Children.
I believe the Gargoyles are only fertile every twenty
years. In other words, there is a new generaltion every twenty years with a ten year incubation period
on the eggs. I'm not sure just how long a female gargoyle carries the egg before she lays it.
The 100 referes to the Guests at the con, I believe.
Such wonderful people as Keith David and the like.
Has anyone seen my soapbox? I know I left it here last time I ranted. I need it to annoye people on
my costuming newletters.
Starsinger
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 07:14:42 AM
IP: proxy-158.iap.bryant.webtv.net

As far as the three races go, I think that the number if the race is due to the order of apearance. Gargoyles first, humans second, and fae third.

Kenneth Chisholm, what do you think of the support so far? Like I mentioned before, I purchased multiple palm-top computers and acessories so we (Lady Mystic and I) could read the series else where. Heck, lots of us fans are willing to spend hundreds, if not thousands, to celebrate both series with you writers! I think it is VERY worth it!

BTW... did I read right? Did only 100 people go last year?
Just wondering.
Fire Storm <JeremyCBCD@aol.com>
Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 01:37:37 AM
IP: 170-241-251.ipt.aol.com

(Another hologram of Doug appears. He and his girlfriend are still in the same condition he was in last post, but now Lisa is awake and being interviewed by a crew of tabloid reporters, including the infamous trio known as the Lone Gunmen.)
Hope the cock-and-bull she's feeding them about aliens and her genetic traits doesn't cause any problems. Anyway, here's what I have to say:
"Can't help but giggle at Sevarius Jr.'s statements about his dad."
That makes three of us (Lisa, me, and AotN). We haven't laughed so hard in a long time. And to Sevarius Jr., please don't worry about my problems. We can deal with them here. Sorry about your prom date causing so much havoc, hope she's dead. (She is, right?) Hope you have a good therapist. And don't worry about the dog. It's probably not yours, I'm sure it's just either your dad or someone like him doing a copycat experiment. The Black Ravens (my friends and my 'gang,' Lisa and me being the deputy leaders) will deal with it as soon as my girlfriend and I get out of the hospital. Or maybe Keith, Jim, Trish, Shap, Tara, Alex, Sam, and Boris can handle it without us. Depends on how big the dog is, I guess. Thanks for making me sure it wasn't yours.
On the 3 races: I agree with One-Eyed Squid, in fact I've been making the same assumptions as to why they're called the three races. In my mind, God made the fay first and many of them became his angels. Then God directed evolution to create everything else. Humans, gargs, animals, plants, etc. That's my view on the subject. Feel free to dispute it if you like.
Okay, proved I've been in this room a little too much today. See y'all later!
(Doug starts trying to think up convincing lies as the mob of tabloid reporters finish with Lisa and approach him. The image fades out.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 11:50:22 PM
IP: ad68-079.arl.compuserve.com

AoTN>>you have to remember that gargoyles age at half the rate of humans, so if an average human lives what, 70, then a gargoyle's life span would be 120-140 years, about that any ways. I doubt they mate at all at age 20, because they be about 10. so at 40, 60, 80.....and that's be it, probably not at 80, they might be too old, because that's 40 human years, but possibly, I don't know, I;m so alone<----that's a little joke.
Ordell <ordell9425@geocities.com>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 11:27:43 PM
IP: 173-6-85.ipt.aol.com

*Can't help but giggle at the statements Sevarius Jr. makes about his dad.*
AotN
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 11:12:41 PM
IP: dialup-103-60.sssnet.com

Mandi> Well, I've read that a female lays her egg(s) 20 years after conception, and that they hatch 10 years later. I find this a rather disturbing thought, however. I mean, think about it: get pregnant at twenty, lay the egg at forty, see the thing hatch at fifty, and never get meet the grandkids (not that gargoyles specifically care who their grandkids are, but still, the priciple is there). Of course, if you think about it, it all makes sense with the show and all, in that the generations intermix because of the long development process (ex. Some people are saying that Broadway is Hudson's son. So chronologically, the clan would be Hudson's generation, then Goliath's, then Broadway's. But Goliath's isn't immediately related to the other two. Am I making sense?). Anyway...
AotN
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 11:06:35 PM
IP: dialup-103-60.sssnet.com

Doug, I'm sorry about your problems. I'd change them if I could.

But first off, I'm sure the creature you saw/heard couldn't have been Puddles (he had a slight...problem, shall we say) cause he went to that great genetically engineered doggie heaven in the sky. I still miss him though. I get teary-eyed every time I watch Cujo.

As for prom night...at least your date was human. That's all I'm gonna say...My therapist doesn't like me to talk about it...I still have the scars though...But that poor school janitor, boy did he ever get it though...
Sevarius Jr.
Seattle, Washington USA
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:58:23 PM
IP: client-151-200-120-36.bellatlantic.net

I Just want to apologise for those repeat poasts. Something was wrong with my computer and I couldn't tell weather they were receaved or not.-Th One Eyed Squid
The One Eyed Squid <Sigma28@aol.com>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:37:47 PM
IP: spider-tf023.proxy.aol.com

Greetings

The Races: I allways thought that the 1st 2nd 3rd was refering tho the substence they were made of. Gargoyles are the 1st because they are made of stone which is the hardest subtence. Humans are the 2nd because we're made of flesh which is softer then stone, and the fay are the 3rd race since the're made of magic which is intangible.

Is TGS Worth It: answer, you bet! TGS is great. I love the charicters, the stories, the art. In a lot of ways it's better then the television show ever was. Okay you have made a few mistakes. So what, no one's perfict. Even the television series made a few mistakes. If you look at it in a certain light people nitpicking you is actually a good thing. It means that they have nothing beter to do then to look through your work trying to find holes in it. Hec, I'll probably do it over the course of next season. Why, because I love TGS.

Okay I'm done-The One Eyed Squid
The one Eyed Squid <Sigma28@aol.com>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:26:40 PM
IP: spider-tc023.proxy.aol.com

Greetings

The Races: I allways thought that the 1st 2nd 3rd was refering tho the substence they were made of. Gargoyles are the 1st because they are made of stone which is the hardest subtence. Humans are the 2nd because we're made of flesh which is softer then stone, and the fay are the 3rd race since the're made of magic which is intangible.

Is TGS Worth It: answer, you bet! TGS is great. I love the charicters, the stories, the art. In a lot of ways it's better then the television show ever was. Okay you have made a few mistakes. So what, no one's perfict. Even the television series made a few mistakes. If you look at it in a certain light people nitpicking you is actually a good thing. It means that they have nothing beter to do then to look through your work trying to find holes in it. Hec, I'll probably do it over the course of next season. Why, because I love TGS.

Okay I'm done-The One Eyed Squid
The One Eyed Squid <Sigma28@aol.com>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:16:31 PM
IP: spider-tc042.proxy.aol.com

Greetings

The Races: I allways thought that the 1st 2nd 3rd was refering tho the substence they were made of. Gargoyles are the 1st because they are made of stone which is the hardest subtence. Humans are the 2nd because we're made of flesh which is softer then stone, and the fay are the 3rd race since the're made of magic which is intangible.

Is TGS Worth It: answer, you bet! TGS is great. I love the charicters, the stories, the art. In a lot of ways it's better then the television show ever was. Okay you have made a few mistakes. So what, no one's perfict. Even the television series made a few mistakes. If you look at it in a certain light people nitpicking you is actually a good thing. It means that they have nothing beter to do then to look through your work trying to find holes in it. Hec, I'll probably do it over the course of next season. Why, because I love TGS.

Okay I'm done-The One Eyed Squid
The One Eyed Squid <Sigma28@aol.com>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:15:32 PM
IP: spider-tc042.proxy.aol.com

(A holographic image of Doug appears in the center of the chatroom. Everyone notes he's lying in a hospital bed with several bandages tied around his body. Lisa is in one next to him, in similar condition but sleeping peacefully. A doctor is looking at her physical mutations and taking notes on what appears to be an alien life form.)
Well, thanks to the marvels of modern technology, I can still communicate with you guys even when I'm in hospital thanks to injuries sustained in the battle with the Quarrymen (Shrike missile hit us right after we shot down the copter, we're hurt really bad, don't ask how bad please). Only one thing to say.
Sevarius Jr.: Hey, I never said what kind of words I'd have with your dad. Maybe I wouldn't be mad at him, maybe I'd thank him. I could sure use some quick healing treatments like Lisa had to get out of this hospital sooner. (He apparently found a way to edit stone sleep out of gargoyle genes and replace it with healing factor genes he got from one of the X-Men, same difference, only you don't get conked out for twelve hours, neato). I never said I was mad at him. And don't worry, man. I know how bad it is to grow up with a bad dad. Mine is a deadbeat who never pays child support until Mom's lawyer calls him. Oh well, no reason to get angry. If I do end up getting mad about Lisa's new look, it won't be at you.
By the way, are you sure your dog isn't still alive? I think I saw something that looked like it wandering around the apartment complex we live in the other night. I heard a lot of screams and eerie baying. This may be something for my detective neighbor Sam to look into. And on prom night, well, I'm sure yours couldn't have been worse than mine. I showed up without a date (she stood me up, we never spoke again), and did a lot of rather embarrassing things. Like dancing out of sequence with the music, spiking the punch when I thought no one was looking (the vice principal was), and banging on the ladies' room door and telling the girls to get out and dance, stop putting on makeup they didn't need to look pretty. Boy, did I ever damage my ratings with the In Crowd. You wouldn't believe how hard it was to get a date the rest of my senior year. Oh well, that's long over. Thank God. That's all for now!!
(Doug coughs to get the doctor's attention, fails, and considers calling an attorney to sue him for malpractice as the hologram fades out.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Austin, TX USA
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 08:43:49 PM
IP: hd45-077.hil.compuserve.com

Doug, I have absolutely no control over what my dad does. He's really something of an embarassment to me. How would you like to grow up the son of a brilliant but demented geneticist? Most people buy dogs. HE MADE ME ONE. Of course, it did have 8 eyes and breathed fire. And I think it really did eat a mailman once.

But I won't even begin to describe the horror of prom night...
Sevarius Jr.
Seattle, Washington USA
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 08:11:01 PM
IP: client-151-200-125-164.bellatlantic.net

(The chatroom door is knocked down by the hurled dead body of a bad guy in Quarryman attire. Doug and Lisa, both firing shotguns at the army of Quarrymen dashing towards them, zip inside, both panting and out of breath.)
Doug: Shoot!! We break out of their base, kill over forty Quarrymen, and they still keep coming!! Where does JC get all these nutcases? Oh well, I have other things to say.
My reaction when I first found TGS: Disappointment I didn't find it sooner! I only found it last October and had to spend several weeks getting caught up on old eps that were already out. At first, I was afraid they'd all be really bad and I would be wasting time. Boy, was I wrong!! I'm glad you guys are continuing the series, and doing a good job of it. Keep it up!!
(takes over keeping the Quarrymen back from the door.)
Lisa: I first found TGS in September, way before Doug did (heh heh). And while I'm not the rabid gargs fan so many here are (my boyfriend included), I still think all aspects of gargoyles are great. Disney should not have canceled such a wonderful show, and the TGS people are doing a great job of continuing it, definitely a better job than TGC did. You keep it up, hear me? My first reaction- I thought, my, great stories! Better than TGC any day. I'm definitely unable to wait for Ragnarok!!
Oh well, we have to go before this room gets even more torn up than the time Doug crashed his dragon through the ceiling. Bye all!!
(Lisa tosses a high-intensity flash grenade into the Quarrymen ranks, blinding several and forcing them back. She then takes the opportunity to grab Doug, leap to the wall, and glide away into the night. Seconds later, a Quarryman helicopter plummets from above, crashing on the group below. Doug and Lisa, finally safe, fly home.)
Doug Elder and Lisa Telman <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu (Doug) or dierdre34@yahoo.com (Lisa)>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 07:22:05 PM
IP: dd53-118.dub.compuserve.com

Has TGS been a failure? I was totally crushed when Gargoyles stopped on television. Then I got internet access and found all this fan-fic plus a comment room! One of the greatest things about TGS is that fans know what the characters are thinking, unlike the TV show. And you could not believe my excitement when I found Timedancer(I'm a major Brooklyn fan:) It's great to know there are enough fans out there to keep such a great story going. What was everyone else's reaction when they first found TGS?
Allison Abadie <jim.abadie@mcione.com>
Carrollton, TX USA
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 07:04:50 PM
IP: 166.55.81.167

TGS not worth the effort??? Who gave you that stupid
idea?? Most of you maintain your own websites and/or
fanfic series while writing such top notch stories, I'm amazed. I could never do it. I found out about
TGS and the garoyles universe by accident. I could
only get one hour a week at the library and with help
I managed to sneak an extra hour or so each week. It
soon came clear to me I needed my own web access and
with a computer at least a couple years in the future, I turned to Webtv and a printer. Now I have
my cats and a printer to support. And it's been worth
every penny of my tax refund this year. Two years ago it was the SEGA genesis and the only game I have
is the gargoyles game.

Yes I am obsessed. I like the series and I like meeting all the interesting people out here who have
the same obsession. Thank you world.

Batya - on the T-shirts, there were two winners. Is
there only one t-shirt design? or two?

Looks around for soap box and can't find it. Drat, lost another one.

Starsinger
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 07:02:02 PM
IP: proxy-148.iap.bryant.webtv.net

(Doug strides in, wearing a full Kevlar bodysuit, and carrying a Mack 10 shotgun, shoulder-mounted grenade launcher, and wicked-looking short-handled battle axe.)
Before I go find the Quarrymen remnants who kidnapped Lisa (I guess it's Lisa-goyle now thanks to Sevarius Jr.'s dad, with whom I might soon be having words) from our university cafeteria and kick some serious ass, I have to say this:
TGS worth it: Oh, definitely!! Never have I seen the minds of so many good fic writers combined so well. The story is excellent, the characters are fantastic, and of course I would like to see it continue. The criticisms are just my opinions based on what I'd like to see more of in the series. Hope they bring back Liz, Richard, Sarah, Brother Ed, and all the other good new characters who departed too quickly back next season (I have a feeling they will). Hope to read more good stories from them also at that time. The series should definitely continue, and so should the comments. Commenting is always good, because there is always room for improvement. See y'all.
(Doug strides back out, cursing when he realizes he forgot to pack ammo for his guns.)
Doug Elder <frostfire@mail.utexas.edu>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 05:02:33 PM
IP: hd76-190.hil.compuserve.com

**Writing this real quick before I run out the door.**

Cassandra: That reminds me, how long again does it take a gargoyle egg to hatch? If Graeme and Ariana did hatch in 2158, or somewhere in that ballpark, wouldn't that mean Brooklyn and Sata would have to stick around in that time for the duration to protect their eggs? It would be difficult to take the eggs with them through time.

Of course, what if the Gate took Brooklyn and Sata away unexpectedly once the eggs were laid and placed someplace safe and were brought forward to when they were about to hatch? Thought to ponder, although it would definitely have to be a safe place indeed.

**Looks up, gulps and runs out**
Mandi Ohlin
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 04:06:20 PM
IP: 131.92.167.42

*Cassandra mutters to herself as she turns around and walks back into the chatroom. "Am I going to have to start writing things down? 3000 is just way too young to go senile."*

Okay, here's another thought. My math could be faulty, but the way I figure it Brooklyn's twins could see themselves hatched in 2158. That's provided nothing happens to the twins between 1998 and 2158 and they would be elder gargoyles of the clan. But it is possible, if I did my math right. Talk about having fun with paradoxes.
Cassandra <nscoa3099@alpha.nsula.edu>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 03:52:16 PM
IP: 192.102.223.229

I forgot the ask my question. The Trio sees Hudson as a father as they would all the adult male gargoyles of Hudson's generation. And Goliath could be seen as a father-figure because he is the leader. But would Goliath's rookery brothers and sisters be seen as fathers/mothers or older brothers/sisters?
Cassandra <nscoa3099@alpha.nsula.edu>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 03:40:19 PM
IP: 192.102.223.229

TGS a failure! No! No! No! *Cassandra shakes her head with each "no".* I loved Gargoyles and then Disney made it go away. (Disney made a lot of cartoons I loved go away, but that's a different story.) So I settled for watching what episodes I have on tape, over and over again.

Then I go surfing on the Web and find the Gargoyles Saga. An excellently done fan-fic series, that not only managed to pick up the threads where they had been left, but expand upon them. I was estatic and stayed in the computer labs for hours everyday trying to catch up. My only problem now I was finding someone to talk to about the series. But alas, I was the only one obsessed with it in Natchitoches. (So if someone reading this is from this town, come look me up, kay?)

But the staff was ahead of me and created this chatroom. Hurray! A chance to connect with people just as obsessive as me! And I leaped in feet first.

Now about the critisms. I'm a writer too, and if someone likes your work well enough to critize freely without having to prompt them too much, you're doing something right. (Example of something not done right. Writer: "What did you think about the fight on page three?" Reader: "It was good, everything was good, stop asking me these silly questions, and let me get on with my life." Example of something done right. TGS Comment Room.) My comments have tried to be questions I was plauged by or ideas I thought could improve the series. And they are just my opinions. The staff is under no obligation to follow any suggestions from me. The staff's work is excellent and I can't wait for next season to begin.
Cassandra <nscoa3099@alpha.nsula.edu>
Natchitoches, Lousisiana USA
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 03:11:30 PM
IP: 192.102.223.229

*Batya sneaks into the room and tacks a sign on the wall, then sneaks back out. The sign reads:*
The Gathering 1998 website has been updated!
Want to know what's going to happen? Look at the schedule of events.
Also added are rules for the Art Show and a T-shirt order form (we'll have the actual t-shirt design up later this week).
53 days till the Gathering! Click on my name to get to the website.
Batya "The Toon" Levin <gathering98@yahoo.com>
Con Chair, The Gathering 1998
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 02:52:53 PM
IP: dialup-22-10.cc.columbia.edu

*Merlin walks in with a chalkboard tied around her neck. She pulls out a kazoo and plays the tune to "My Favorite Things" as she writes:*

"Masquerade parties and vids in the con suite. Special guest visits and tours on the concrete. Filk-writing workshops, TGS readings, these are a few of the Gathering things. Hist'ry and myth in the world of the Gargoyles. Fan art for judging, in pastels and oils. Webmaster chats and maybe some gaming, these are a few of the Gathering things. Last year Keith showed. Boy were we fooled, all one hundred guests. This year's convention is well underway, and looks to be the best!"

*With a mercifully final toot on the kazoo, Merlin points to her name, where with a click, you can see the schedule for yourself. She points very hard to the bit about the TGS reading, then saunters out.*
Merlin Missy <mrwilson@umr.edu>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 02:47:56 PM
IP: speedo.physics.umr.edu

Is The Gargoyles Saga worth it?
ABSOLUTELY! This is by far THE most professional fan-fic I have ever seen! Any project, no matter how good or bad, will get critisism. Actually, sometimes, next to imitation, critisism is the sincerst form of flattery (EEEK! spelling!).
Personally, I love what you are doing. True, I may nit-pick and critisize, but hey, dosn't every true fan of Star Trek nit-pick it to death? At least with TGS, there isn't as much nit-picking needed for continuity. You are VERY good at that! And the amount of research you must do makes the series accurate.
If you ask everyone who criticises TGS, I bet everyone who reads it regulary would say sorry if they hurt your feelings.

But this is definately somthing that is worth it! You have taken a good show with alot of potential and made a, IMHO, great series.
Fire Storm <JeremyCBCD@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 11:51:34 AM
IP: 166-178-239.ipt.aol.com

**Mandi jumps back in again, seeing Kenneth's question.**

Kenneth: Has TGS been worth the effort?? YES YES YES!! The fact that this comment room has been so crowded is probably a testament to its popularity.

As for the nitpicking: the criticism I've seen here is at the same level that most fans deal to still-airing shows, Gargoyles or not. I think if the question came down to whether or not to continue with TGS, you would find yourself mobbed with even the most detailed TGS nitpickers begging you to continue.

I think my only real qualm with the series is that a number of new threads and characters were introduced early on (Sara Jasper, Richard Harrison, Sharon Nimura) who seemed to vanish later on in the series since they couldn't be adequately packed in along with the greater issue of the Rising. It might be nice next season to see a return of some of those aspects rather than bringing more characters in.

**Mandi decides she's done her quota for the next few days and goes back to work**
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:41:20 AM
IP: 131.92.167.42

**Mandi sneaks in again. This time, she isn't preceded by any "code rage"-induced missiles, thankfully.**

Just remembered something else on the question of Asrial: Another reason why Demona wouldn't do something so drastic at this point would probably be due to her respect for Asrial. No, I'm not kidding; in "Coming of Age," when we saw Asrial's methods of surviving the first few trials through Demona's perspective, Demona seemed somewhat impressed with Asrial's ingenuity. Especially when she took out Atalanta as handily as she did. :)

On that note, what if Atalanta decides to make good on her threat of revenge? *shudder* Everyone's been speculating that Roland might finish her off, but Atalanta might be just as dangerous a threat to Asrial after the beating she took.

You guessed it. I'm supposed to be working. I figure I can write this off as a preventive measure towards avoiding any more outbursts towards this computer.

**Mandi waves, clears the last bit of glass she missed out of the corner, and exits.**
Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:33:26 AM
IP: 131.92.167.42

Hey Group!

We at TGS have been wondering how we have been doing. Apparently some of us are taking some negative criticism of the project really hard, almost to the point of thinking that TGS has been a failure. I beg to differ, but what do YOU think?

What have we doing right, doing wrong and what would you want to improve?

Finally, do you think this series project has been worth it?
Kenneth Chisholm <kchishol@mnsi.net>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:31:08 AM
IP: dyn208-28-56-22.lon.mnsi.net

Out of my way! ;) *grabs place*
ED
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:19:47 AM
IP: p29-flameback-gui.tch.virgin.net

8th!

(Yes, I think I shall start trying to come in regularly...)
JEB <JEB215@aol.com>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 10:16:41 AM
IP: 167-195-242.ipt.aol.com

Well...the Gargoyles may be first, but the human race rules the world, dammit!

And I'm 7th! Holy number of perfection!
Sevarius Jr.
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 09:08:03 AM
IP: client-151-200-125-73.bellatlantic.net

**Nothing happens for a few moments. Then, without warning, a thick manual entitled "VBA for Beginners" flies like a missile through the window, showering glass on the floor. Mandi comes in through the door (mercifully) with a broom in hand.**

Oops. Sorry. It's Monday. Sixth!!

Felicia: I've been shot down on this discussion before. At this point in Dark Ages, do you really think Demona would be so corrupted as to actually arrange Asrial's death? Personally, I don't think she would have gone far enough over the edge to actually have a hand in the death of a rookery sister, Archmage or no Archmage.

Sure, she wounded Thersites in their "capture-the-flag" game due to his teachings, but from their laughter afterwards, I assumed the damage was relatively superficial (read: waiting for dawn wouldn't be a big problem, compared to Brooklyn's injuries in "Daylight"). I still don't think Demona has reached the point when she would resort to eliminating the competition in such a way.

As for the Gathering: SOB! I'm going to slap whoever decided to make classes at Hood start August 24! (Worse, I have a loft and a freshman roommate to deal with, so I have to go back early!)
That and car insurance have made mi madre put her foot down. Oh, well....

**Mandi finishes sweeping up the mess, reluctantly retrieves the book, and decides to exit to stave off further whining. :) **

Mandi Ohlin <weird_web@hotmail.com>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 07:54:33 AM
IP: 131.92.167.42

I sorry, I still think Asrial is a dead women!! Demona has her sights set on Goliath with the prospect of him becoming second in command and her strenghting ties with the Archmage I can only fore-see a very fatal accident. As for the trio's parentage I just wonder? I mean with Angela running around embracing her mother and father and Brooklyn and his two behaving like a human family unit, it would only seem to beg the question who were the parents of the those three. Besides it's only a matter of time before Cold Stone and Cold Fire go to Avialon and meet thier son Gabriel . Cold Steele will try and kill him but that another post. They have to go to Avialon , Tom and Princess are getting old and somebody has to teach them how to behave like a gargoyle clan and how to kick a little butt!!!!!!
Felicia <2funk@spynet.com>
Chicago, Illinois United States
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 05:05:35 AM
IP: orend.ped.ehc.com

Greetingings world. Just rememeber, Once is a happeninging, twice is tradition, three times is a
sacred and honored tradition. DumlaoX is number one, Firestorm is number two, Ladymystic is number three.
That makes me number four. Yeah twice in a row.
'Night all. Starsinger
Theresa <Starsinger@Webtv.net>
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 04:30:06 AM
IP: proxy-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net

Hello everyone!

Here's just some of my weeks-worth of comments:

<<Actually, if anyone has been to the Gathering, speak up and let us know what went on last year. We can then have a better idea of what goes on this year. ~ DumlaoX>> Please! This would help the people who don't know what's going at G'98. It will also help us make the final decision about going or not going.

<<Lady Mystic: I think the first race is referring to them being the most important race to themselves. ~ED>> I disagree. If the "First Race" term was used in referance to a species refering to themselve's as being most important to themselves, then everyone would call themselves the "First Race." Example - humans: our race is naturally the most important to us. And with the Fae's ego wouldn't they call themselves First above everyone else? Of course they would, but they don't. As I've said, the gargoyles were probably older than humans and fae.

Here's a comment that backs up this theory: <<I think that gargoyles actually predated humans, myself. My main reason for suspecting this is that gargoyles seem better adapted, biologically speaking, to a world where humans and other sentient beings that are active in the daytime don't exist. Let's face it, stone sleep is a dangerous liability with the humans around - in fact, without it, the mass extinctions might not have been possible. But on its own terms, it's very useful; the gargoyle stores up enough solar energy to allow him or her to glide around at night, undergoes rest, and wounds are healed. If there were no humans around, stone sleep wouldn't be a liability at all. ~Todd Jensen>> So gargoyles are actually the FIRST race.
Lady Mystic <TJSSLSSAS@aol.com>
Dearborn , MI USA
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 01:25:37 AM
IP: 204-21-118.ipt.aol.com

Heres a few questions:
WHO is going to be at the Gathering (I mean celebraties)
WHAT is going to happen at the gathering (Events, seminars, signings)
HOW many people will be there (Estimate)
WHY whould I go to your gathering? (Hey, it is asked on the submitions!)
There have been so few questions anwsered about the gathering this year. I am truly wondering if I should go. I would rather know whether or not it is worth it to go this year or not.

Also, about the Gargoyles on video CD-ROM: It will work on any computer with a standard 4x CD-ROM and a 486/66 or better. How many people are interested in this? I hope that I can keep the price under $10 a episode, but I REALLY want to keep it under $5. The major cost will be royalties. I need to know wether it is worth it to get the rights from Buena Vista.

Also, how many people would want a documentary of the Gathering this year, video AND photo's. If I go, I would probally do that.

(Speaking the the videos, did you get the video, Jackal?)

As for Goliath and Elisa, of course they will get together, and they will probally have kids. I think Elisa would be willing to get a slight genetic alteration (Provided it does not change her appearance, and very little internal)

Greg is not a god. He may have wrote the origional Gargoyles, but TGS has branched beyond his ideas, so they are really shouldn't apply too much.

Bad Guys wouldn't ba a good series, and neither would New Olympians. I personally think that NO would bring down the quality of the series. I think that there should be a Fae History series. You know... find out the history of your favorite Fae, and fine some new ones.

How goes the creation of the Gargoyles Font? That would be a great font!

Oh, jackal, I don't know if I will publish my fan-fic or not. One thing for sure, it is definately NOT for kids, under any circumstances.

And, finally, the gliches have been getting worse. I can't re-load the page without problems, and it happens only with the TGS comment room, on all three of my computers. I hope this board dosn't crash. :(

(Here is about a weeks worth of coments. I just haven't had a chance to get on the comment room too much this week.)

(IT took about a half hour for last weeks comment room to clear!)

Fire Storm <JeremyCBCD@aol.com>
Dearborn, MI USA
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 12:52:30 AM
IP: 204-21-118.ipt.aol.com

Sorry for the late wipe. Had other items IRL to take care of
DumlaoX
Monday, June 22, 1998 at 12:49:46 AM
IP: ts23-10.wla.ts.ucla.edu