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I'M BAAAAAACK! **smacks DC for having the room down for the entire first day of my being near a computer in 3 weeks.** I haven't had time to catch up on the room yet, but I hope to do that in the next day or so. In the meantime, I'd just like to say that I hope everyone had fun at the gathering and if anyone has any pictures from it scanned, I'd really like to see them. Also, I'd really appreciate it if anyone felt like giving me a synopsis of world events for the last 3 weeks (doing it by e-mail is fine if no one wants to clutter the room, but I'm serious about this. When I get out of touch, I get really out of touch and my local paper isn’t up to the task of bringing me back. My family just shrugs and says "nothing happened," which I find hard to believe). Thanks all. I guess that’s it for the moment. I’ll be back when I’ve had some sleep and have something to add to the conversations.
Zath - [zath@rocketmail.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 05:50:55 AM
IP: ns2-01.viptx.net

Alright I can get back in at last!!

Pistoff:*ROTFLMAO*That Jar Jar Binks site was great!,I'm still laughing at it:)

***TGS SPOILERS***
Absolutely great stuff guys a true crossover ep Elisa and Goliath are getting hitched:),stacks of pictures and all of them great,Arthur is being Framed,I'm going to go nuts waiting for the next season to start up:)
***END SPOILERS***

C'yas later!!
Xanathar
Melbourne, victoria, Australia
Monday, July 19, 1999 05:08:52 AM
IP: 203.29.192.74

Stray> Welcome to the comment room! I'm glad to hear you're liking the TGS episodes so far. Whenever you want to comment, feel free to go right ahead.

But a word of caution: While it is expected for spoilers of new episodes to be put within asteriks to warn those who have not yet read the episode, old episodes are casually referred to. You might want to be carefull to avoid spoiling yourself. :)
Entity
Monday, July 19, 1999 05:06:07 AM
IP: ely-oh4-55.ix.netcom.com

Oops, forgot something...

If you hate Jar Jar Binks, click my name. :)
Pissy
Monday, July 19, 1999 04:12:32 AM
IP: wire-11.koalas.com

Wow, the room's finally up again! I swear, this site goes down more often than a fifty-dollar hooker ....

David G: The problem could be the length of your story. If it's too long, the archive won't accept it. I ran into this problem when I tried to post "Truce" (the story was 150 pages, 498 KB, hehe). I kept getting a message that said the file wasn't in html or txt format, when it most definitely was html. I tried splitting it up into three parts, and that worked, the archive accepted it. So if your story is very long, you might try splitting it into two or three parts.

Taleweaver: Well, I don't think putting your characters through difficult (or even torturous) situations is necessarily sadistic. Conflict is what creates good drama. While I'm reluctant to kill off characters unless it's absolutely necessary to move the story forward (except in some cases, when a character was created specifically to die at a certain point), I don't hesitate to put 'em through a wringer. Besides, killing characters off just for the sake of shock value or for creating tension in a story can become an obvious gimmick if used too often. I try to be as true to life as possible, which means that I sometimes go easy on the characters ... which leads them to become complacent. Then they're unprepared for whatever conflict comes up next. To use the quote from Sam Raimi again, "I like to create characters that people can care about--and then punish them." ;)

Kitainia: Awwwwwww, thanks. :)
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 03:41:46 AM
IP: wire-11.koalas.com

Wow, the room is back up. :-) Well, I just finished reading the new ep, and maybe I'll post comments on it tomorrow. It's really late right now - or early.
Blue Caeru
Monday, July 19, 1999 03:36:54 AM
IP: spider-tr032.proxy.aol.com

Hi

I'm Stray, and I'm a huge fan of Gargoyles. Recently, I've had more access to computers, and I'm just getting into TGS. I've read the first three stories, and I really like them so far. I look forward to reading more, and when I do, being able to talk about them. I hope I fit in here!

-Stray
Stray - [aurora_kinsclan@yahoo.com]
Pittsburgh, PA, U.S.A.
Monday, July 19, 1999 02:53:21 AM
IP: user-38ldhbt.dialup.mindspring.com

Concerning Demona:
I honestly like the direction the staff has been going with the character, though the idea of total reform doesn't appeal that much. I kind of doubt her eliminating her bigotry towards humans, though she may soften her tone a little and accept some of them (such as that artist Andrea) but I assume she will always expect the worst from people...

While Demona maybe thawing out her ice-b***h persona, I really dont ever see her returning to the clan proper (like her alternate from Two) Mostly because she has established a nice little life for herself as Dominique Destine and I don't see her gaining anything from rejoining the clan. I don't ever see her being on friendly terms with Goliath or Elisa, maybe polite terms, but not really friendly.
Skippy The Klingon - [shakedwn@ultravision.net]
Sunday, July 18, 1999 12:38:39 AM
IP: uv1-56.ultravision.net

**LONG RP HERE, YOU ARE WARNED**

The Ravens stand ready as the assimilated friends and family of Daria approach them. "Break out the stun guns!" Kitainia shouts. "We have to disable these people without killing them so they can be unassimilated!" "That's not going to happen!" snaps the black male teenager (forget his name). "We will assimilate you first!" "Come on and step into my arms, ladies!" Upchuck laughs, extending his tentacles toward the female Ravens. They are promptly blasted off, causing Upchuck to yell, "Ooh, fiesty!" Kitainia blasts him in the head with her stungun, knocking him out. Dodging blasts from the other characters, the rest of the Ravens fire their stunguns and take down both black teenagers and most of the school supporting cast, including the teacher with the weird eye. "Do something, Kevin!" Brittany yells at her boyfriend. "We can't let then get us all!" "Uh, okay!" Kevin shrugs, charging at Doug with his guns firing. Doug shoots back with the stungun and knocks him down and out. "No!" Brittany wails, just before Tom's stungun puts her lights out before she can even attack. "Stop this nonsense now, Daria!" Mr. Morgendorfer orders. "Yeah, Daria," Jane purrs as her best friend backs away from her. "Don't you want to be one of us?" "We are going to assimilate you!" Ms. Morgendorfer shouts, causing her daughter to scream. The Ravens, realizing Daria is for some reason unable to attack her own family, turn to rush to her aid. Quinn's dozens of boyfriends intercept them at their mistress's orders and soon they are all bogged down in a firefight. Only Trent is free, and he quickly jumps to protect Daria. "I won't let you take her!" he shouts, firing his stungun and knocking out Daria's dad as she stops and drops her jaw. "Trent?" Daria asks. "What are you doing?" "Helping a friend!" Trent shouts in reply, his next shot knocking back Daria's mom. "Stop it, brother," Jane hisses, raising a welding torch implant. "You don't want me to hurt you, do you?" She moves closer as Trent nervously raises his gun. Then Jane is knocked back and hits the wall, Daria smiling as she lowers her gun. "My family I won't hurt," she quips. "Yours is a different matter." Trent grins back and shoots down Daria's mom as she rises to her feet. The Ravens meanwhile continue to stun the other Daria characters. Soon only Quinn remains. "No! Don't hurt me!" she wails, just before Shauna's stungun knocks her out. "You go down easy," the archer chuckles. The good guys all sigh heavily, stepping back to treat their wounds and recover from this latest grueling battle. As they are doing so, Kit makes a post.

**END RP 1ST HALF**

Hello. Everyone having a good weekend? I hope so. Doug and I have had an okay one so far. Haven't gotten to see Blair Witch Project yet (showtimes sold out a lot since it's only at one theater in town, we'll probably see it next week). But we did see Eyes Wide Shut, so...

**HERE COMES DOUG AND KIT'S SPOILER-FILLED REVIEW OF EYES WIDE SHUT**

This movie had its moments, but overall SJ is right, it wasn't very good. Doug and I largely went to see it for three reasons. One, the nudity (he wanted to see Nicole, I wanted to see Tommy. Two, curiosity. And three, Kubrick We've liked some of Kubrick's films. Clockwork Orange and The Shining are among our favorites. We hated Lolita and Full Metal Jacket, but were hoping EWS would be better.

It wasn't.

SJ was right. This movie blew bigtime. Tom Cruise had a decent preformance, and there was stunning imagery and music. The nudity was also nice to see, if a little gratuitous and overly used. <grin> The plot and script stank, though. It didn't flow well, there were lots of convoulted developments (a secret society of masked sexual perverts? Come on!), and some of the scenes were flat out unrealistic (most flagrant example- at the opening party, Nicole's character flirts with the Hungarian guy. That guy steals her drink, consumes it, then tries to seduce her in the most flagrant way possible, and she acts like she might give in? No way would that happen with any woman in her right mind! That guy was a total creep! IMO, anyway. <sighs>) Nicole Kidman also turned in a very lackluster preformance. The only time I was able to see her as Alice Hartford and not an actress playing a part was when she was supposed to be stoned. Other than that, her dialogue seemed forced and very lame. Some of the other actors did a fine job (especially Leelee Sobieski and the guy who played Zigler).

Overall Kubrick really struck out with this film. I suppose from the artsy perspective it was good, but from that of the viewer who wants to be entertained, it was not. We gave it 3/10, thumbs down. The man may be dead, but that is no reason to not honestly judge his final work. We do not recommend it. If you do go see it anyway, hope you find something to enjoy.

**END REVIEW AND SPOILERS FOR EYES WIDE SHUT**

Coyote: Yep. And you worked it in well. Thank you. Your grandmother's condition remains in my prayers. Hope the nightmare is over soon.

Spike: Thanks for posting that neat doodle. Wonder if the upcoming Gargs Season finale will feature any pics.

Dags: Thanks for the script. It was a little fast and predictable, but still intriguing. Hope Lucas doesn't deviate that far from it with the real Episode 3.

Asrial's Fate: I am among those who want her to somehow survive the massacre. I like the character a whole lot. If she dies, though, I can probably take it as long as it's written in a good way at an appropriate time. Hope Dark Ages returns soon so we can see Asrial onscreen again. :)

Welcome back to all returning members, especially Robby and JEB.

Pistoff, Kaioto: Good debate on atheism vs. religion. You both made your points well and kept things from degenerating into a flame war (though you did come close). I commend you for it. Nice job! :)

Hard Boiled: I too enjoyed that movie's gunfights. Hope to see a Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yeoh movie real soon.

Favorite Eps: Gargs- Reprisals, Turncoat, The Rising, Darkest Hour, Lethe. Pendragon- The Return, Quest's End. Timedancer- Sun and the Serpent, Crossroads, The Promise, Menagerie. Dark Ages- Prince of Thieves and Alliances.

Character Religions: Margot and Brendan are probably Christian but not that devout. I can easily see them as Baptists. I don't know about the others aside from what's already been said.

Glimmer: You're right, we do not need another trial like that eating up our favorite programs and other quality time.

Demona Debate: I think that she's worth redemption for the same reasons as most people. We've seen her when she was a naive innocent as well as a demonic villainess, and we hope that the good Demona can someday return. We also know she's immortal and that immortal bad guys generally need to be redeemed, not killed. As for whether she deserves a punishment, I don't know. Having her kill Angela or Andrea is definitely going too far. And like Todd said, one should be careful the punishment isn't too awful (no, Mr. Castaway, we will NOT let you decide). It has to be something she needs. I think it might be a good idea to make Demona have to do some kind of ongoing recompense for her wrongs. IMO, this would satisfy the people clamoring for her punishment without being too severe for Demmie and those who care about her. Pistoff and Doug are both handling this kind of atonement well so far in their stories, at least in my opinion. In TGS, maybe Demmie's atonement will be an eventual important plot thread. She's not supposed to learn to accept humans until she meets Benedict, though, so it may take a while to happen. Hope it will make a good story when it does.

Arianna: Congrats on those nice AP grades.

Robby: I vaguely resemble those RPs. :) So it was the peeing Calvin that made Watterson quit? That's disappointing. I wish Calvin and Hobbes were still around today. I wonder what they'd think of Pokemon. <grin>

Coldsteel: I want to see him again too. Hope he comes back soon, and Fang as well. Nice creativity demon about Coldsteel and Hyena, Amy. :)

That's all for tonight. Will post more when I have more topics. Bye, everyone!

**BEGIN SECOND HALF OF RP**

"Alright," Trent sighs as he surveys the dead. "How long will they be out?" "Twenty hours," Doug replies. "These are seriously high-frequency stun guns." "Good," Jammer says. "That should be enough time for us to finish this." "We have an excellent cage ready for these Borg back in Crown Point," Lathrop recalls. He immediately opens a portal to that cage and the Ravens start throwing the disabled Borg through it. As they watch, Daria turns to Trent with a question on her lips. "Why did you protect me back there?" she asks. "You should know I don't need that sort of thing." "Sorry if I offended you," he replies. "I just had to protect a friend." "Thanks," Daria tells him, a rare smile on her lips. "You're the nicest guy I've met." Trent can't hide his sheepish grin as the Ravens turn back to them after throwing in the last disabled Borg and shutting the portal. "You guys no longer have a stake in this," Kit tells Trent, Daria, and the three band members. "If you want, you can get out." "No way," Trent replies. "I want to see this end." "Me too," Daria agrees. "Alright then," Doug says. "Let's go find Guod."\

Meanwhile, in the battle outside, all the Histeria historical parodies are dead except for that of Atilla. The NRA armies, the Schoolgirl Scouts, and the Avatar Forces continue to push the Borg back, firing at the Huns, Borg-Pokemon, and Napoleon's legions. The few remaining Huns are beginning to lose morale, yet they are still urged on by their inept excuse for a general. "Go!" Histeria-Atilla shouts at them. "Come on! Charge!" The Huns obey him reluctantly, prevented from fleeing by their Borg-implanted controls. Histeria-Atilla keeps yelling abuse at them until he is shot in the face by Charlton Heston and falls over dead. Still the Borg-Huns come on, Napoleon now taking command of them along with his own legions. And the battle goes on...

**TO BE CONTINUED, END RP AND POST**
Kitainia
Sunday, July 18, 1999 12:37:36 AM
IP: pool-209-138-163-23.dlls.grid.net

Severious Jr> You on the right track but you missed the details on how Demona is like Xena. Demona's child didn't die but she did miss Angela growing up due to her hatred of humanity and just like Callisto is a constant reminder of Xena's criminal past, Tailog fills that role being the constant reminder of Demona's past not to mention that probably Eliza and the Manhatten clan and yes probably even Xanotos will remind Demona for the sins of her past.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Sunday, July 18, 1999 12:20:46 AM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Hey, does anyone know where I can find some free (key word being *free*) robot clip art? I'm working on a project, and I need some stuff.

Joker killing Robin: Um, you talking about Robin 2, Jason Todd? Near as I can remember, Joker beat the hell out of him with a crowbar, then he (Robin) got blown up real good when a bomb the Joker had set detonated. If I remember correctly, it was Batman fans themselves, via a poll, who voted to off the little bugger. The new Robin kicks ass though. And no more jockey shorts!

Demona: Well, relating her to Xena, I think that Xena is STILL suffering and being punished. First off, the main thing with Xena is that she DOES want to reform and she's been making conscious efforts to do that. She realizes the error of her ways. Not so with Demona. And Xena has experienced a suffering of another kind: As Coyote said, her son was killed (by her lov--I mean, "best friend"'s kid, no less). Plus you have Callisto, a living, breathing (or in later seasons, not so living/breathing) reminder of her screwups, who goes about killing people mainly because she knows it pains Xena when she does so. Add to that the constant warfare Xena must live through, and the severe repurcussions that she must face all the time do to her past failures (such as her pact with Alti [sp?] that led to the slaughter of Amazons). In a sense, karma is paying Xena back quite a bit. Demona's suffered the consequences of her actions numerous times (betraying Macbeth, creating the Hunter, etc), only she refuses to really acknowledge her part in the whole thing. She continues, in her own mind, to think herself a victim (there's that word again), even though she is not. I could except Demona's redemption if it was similar to Xena's--in other words, full of hardship, suffering, and little kicks in the arse--which would of course eventually lead to peace.

Entity: I would count myself as having selfish reasons for wanting Demona punished. I think of all the innocent people who have died at her hands, or would have died at her hands (excluding those individuals, like the various Hunters, who she could argue she murdered in self-defense), and then I see her not receiving any retribution for it (except for a crummy, miserable life, which is partly caused by her own actions), and you bet your ass I feel "cheated".

Personally, in my own opinion, you're screwed either way when it comes to redeeming/punishing Demona. You either let her be redeemed *and* punish her, in which case she's most likely to go psycho bitch again, or you let her be redeemed and count all her "sins" as atoned for, in which case (IMO), no real justice has been served.

Personally, I would wash my hands of Demona. I, for one, readily admitt that yes, perhaps she needs to be redeemed. But it would not be done by the likes of me. Maybe I'm just a hardass son of a b**** (I'm sure that *somebody* in here probably feels that way regarding my feelings toward Demmie), but I don't think personally I'd have the compassion needed to bring her "into righteousness".

But then, I've said enough. If memory serves me, I was flamed once before in this room because I didn't think to highly of Demona and was quite "hard" on her as far as punishment goes.

Killing Angela: I don't think this would really work to aid Demona's redemption, or as a punishment, unless Demmie herself would ultimately be the cause of her daughter's demise. But then again, in true Demona fashion, she would place the blame on someone else, almost certainly the humans.
And I agree, it would only really help a story if it was done for drama (unless you're a bit of a sadist ;).
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Sunday, July 18, 1999 12:09:52 AM
IP: 207-172-33-243.s243.tnt8.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

Today was decent. Finally found time to go to my comic store for the first time in a month... Was pleased to find issues of Gold Digger and Ninja High School were out... In color! And also, just finished watching the Truman Show. Interesting flick.

Hmm, where'd I leave off last night... Around Monday I think...

James Bond- COnnery was the only bond as far as I'm concerned.

Aaron- Don't bother answering my question yesterday about what the magnet says... Hadn't gotten to your post yesterday...

Villains- They're the characters that do wrong, despite whatever their final goal may be. Of coruse, what is wrong is open to clarification... Generally wearing all black, betraying people, being nasty and stuff make a character a villain... Favorites as I said yesterday include Megabyte as the greatest villain... And personal favorite... DBZ's Vegeta perhaps.

And it seems I missed out on another "Is Demona evil" discussion. Hmm. Those seem to pop up in one CR or another every other month...

SJ- Your entertainment news bits are always good. It makes the CR an automatic news source for this sort of thing, saves the rest of us the trouble of having to hunt down this kind of info, and we hear it much sooner than we might otherwise. Keep on bringing it out!

And of course, Toku the CR Sage makes good points as always...

And I seem to now be up to where the room cleared, and honestly, I'm too tired to cover the rest of this week right now... Oh well... Laters peoples.
Robby
Saturday, July 17, 1999 11:27:19 PM
IP: spider-to051.proxy.aol.com

Redemption> It's an interesting topic. I, personally, think redemption has one major flaw. It assumes that the people involved are on the same moral level. One the one hand Demona's thousand years of existance and being hunted might seem enough. But she's never accepted responsibility for her actions and she did kill the Canmore's father with a smile on her lips and a laugh in her throat. Genocide is less on my list than the individual lives destroyed. Top of my retribution list is what she did in Vows. Being a romantic it was pretty offensive to use your ex's sentiment for your own gain. And all these things she is perfectly OK with. I can't imagine her losing sleep over it. It would require a character strength Demona's never possessed, courage. Courage to accept her actions as wrong.

On the long view, I like how things turn up in Requiem. There is a thriving gargoyle culture and she excluded from it. This dragon has an eye for irony. That after all these centuries gargoyles are accepted and prospering and she had nothing to do with it. That helps settle up the immortality deal, but for the short term, I'd like something more direct myself. Personally, I love truth dilemma's. A situation that can only be resolved by admitting a truth. You'd be surprise how terrified people are about the truth, especially about themselves.

Killing Angela> Hmmm. Depends. I agree with David G, that if it supplies the story with drama. However doing it only for the sake of killing someone falls into tired cliche Star Trek uses. That and advancing some character to another plane of existance. I don't know why, they never just transfered off the ship. Let them walk out, not carry them out.

One thing I have noticed as a writer is a bit of sadism growing in me. As much as I love the characters I create, I also enjoy putting them in such treacherous dilemmas. Does anyone else feel like that. You love them, but you love putting them in danger, but I always give them a chance out.
Taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Saturday, July 17, 1999 11:13:08 PM
IP: dialup-209.245.66.106.losangeles1.level3.net

Demona> As usual, some really good comments being made. In my personal opinion, punishment should NOT be given because someone deserves it. It should be given because someone needs it. If Demona were to reform, unless she NEEDED to be punished for her to live with herself, or unless she NEEDED punishment in order to see the error of her ways, then punishment should NOT be dealt out. Otherwise, it is no different than revenge, as Todd implied.

For those who believe that Demona should and deserves to be punished, are you sure your motivation isn't selfish? As in, you want her to be punished because you feel cheated? Compare it to the poor student who gets unlimited praise for getting an A on an assignment, while you, the straight A student who has never faltered, get no praise.

Demona probably killed uncountable innocents in her lifetime, but did she enjoy it? Was the experience of those ten centuries something coveted? I think not. Demona was miserable and empty all that time. So, its not like the sibling who got away with stealing from the cookie jar without being reprimanded. The cookie probably tasted good, but I doubt Demona collapsed on a couch every night with her bloodied mace and sighed, "Man is my life good..."

On a side-note> How did Joker kill Robin, out of curiosity?
Entity
Saturday, July 17, 1999 11:02:59 PM
IP: ely-oh5-48.ix.netcom.com

Oh yeah, I guess I should mention the problem. No matter what format I try to upload the file in (either txt, htm, or html) I get a message that says it's not in either html or txt format.

The problem could be with my machine, which is always a bit odd on the subject of internet file transfers. If I haven't figured it out by monday, I'll try it from work.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Saturday, July 17, 1999 10:42:58 PM
IP: pppa27-resalefortworth2-2r1005.saturn.bbn.com

Grrrr. I finally finished Someone To Watch Over Me, the second Freelance story, and now I can't get it to post. Does anybody know what's wrong?

All the authors still appear three times on the author list, and all the stories are posted three times, too. Weird.

In other news...
More Demona Debate> When we talk about what's fair to do to characters, it's important to remember that the author is not bound by morality in what he does to the characters in the story. It's his job to do bad things to the characters. What should concern the author is whether he's telling a good story, and whether the overall message he's getting across is a good one. In the case of killing Angela to hurt Demona (Which I DON"T REALLY THINK ANYONE SHOULD DO! - just to be clear. I'm really not a mean person, honest.) Angela's death wouldn't be 'fair' particularly to Angela. On the other hand, it might be a sufficiently terrible event to make Demona examine her life and see where she went wrong. Right now, even though she's 'reformed' and not trying to kill humanity, she hasn't really repented for the fact that she wanted to kill humanity. For her to be truly reformed, she has to realize that what she did, and what she wanted to do, was wrong.

Airwalker's points about how to bring her to justice were well taken. An immortal being is beyond the capacity of mortal justice systems in many ways. Any punishment we could choose is likely to be too severe (Life in prison would not be fun for an immortal), or not severe enough. When you add in the fact that MacBeth is also involved, it gets even more complicated.

Killing a major character> (BTW, nice picture, Amy) This is a touchy subject. Killing a major character is a great way to really shake up the story unless you did it just for the shaking up effect. Take "A death in the family" the Batman storyline where the Joker killed Robin.

When one of the central cast dies, that death has to be worth something. Star Wars has some examples. Obi Wan died to save all the other principal characters, and to give Luke enough power to fulfil his destiny. Darth Vader died to kill the Emperior. Nobody else important ever died, even though it might have been dramatic to maybe have Lando die to save Han. (Oh yeah, technically, Boba Fett died, but they did that so badly that I tend to ignore it, as did all the novel writers, who said that he escaped the Sarlac)

One of the best major character deaths in recent memory was the death of Jenny Calendar in Buffy. She died at a dramatically important moment, in a way that really moved the story. If she had just died to show how evil Angelus was, and to mess with Giles, then it would have been cheap. But since she also died right before she could cure Angel, it really worked for me.

I did a list a while back of who might die for the betterment of the story, and my opinions haven't changed much. The important thing is that the character's death serves the story right then. The aftermath is also dramatic, as everybody copes with the loss, but if that's all you get, it seems to fall flat. The readers think, rightly, that the writers just killed off someone they really liked for no good reason.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Saturday, July 17, 1999 10:29:51 PM
IP: pppa27-resalefortworth2-2r1005.saturn.bbn.com

Hi all!
Trying out a new pic...
Onto topics;
Angela dying/enemies: I think it would be a great plot twist to kill off a main character. Think of the reprocutions(sp?)that would follow, how the clan would react. Maybe if she was killed by Cold Steel. (Maybe in a jealous fit because he's not flesh and blood anymore?) He attacks the clan by day. They took a piece of him away (since he feels Titania has a favortism towards the clan, which he should be included in) so he takes away Angela because she was part of Goliath and Demona (who has been redeemed by clan eyes) and Broadway largely. Think of how interesting the characters would react.
Maybe, (since there would be less females) putting Ophelia in her place. Avalon gets too boring, more action, comes to Manhatten the night before angela dies, maybe they blame her for some reason??
Okay, so I know it wouldn't happen, but it's a thought.

Enemies Part: I wanna have more Iago! There are no longer any real close-to-home, gargoyle-type enemies. He certainly has a calling now. He's the only one left who's a gargoyle in a fancy tin can. Desdemona's flesh (read, non-compatable ~_^) Heck, maybe Hyena get's a fancy for him (THAT Would be interesting). Iago hates the gargoyles because he didn't get the girl, he's not part of a clan, he doesn't really belong anywhere. Hyena likes him because of his bad streak (and maybe they ARE compatable, unless we might have an incest thing going on between her and Jackal, which would also be interesting)
Maybe we could see little tin cans flying around, kicking garg butt.
Well, gtg,

Ja ne,
Amy Da Tigger - [Tigeres57@aol.com]
Saturday, July 17, 1999 09:11:17 PM
IP: spider-te083.proxy.aol.com

DEMONA DEBATE - When we talk of the need for punishment, we are thinking from a mortal perspective. But we can't forget that Demona is immortal and we can't apply the same methods of judgment and punishment that we would for a mortal. Her case is unique. She can't just simply be put to death because she'll just wake up a few minutes later. She can be imprisioned but what is time to an immortal? She'll just sit in a cell and when she gets out can continue like nothing happened - she'll still have her youth and plenty of time to do what she wants. The idea of turning her into a human for a length of time seems like a good one but it runs the risk that after she is changed back to normal, she'll just act like "Hey, I did my time, I did my repentance, so don't bug me about redemption anymore, Ok?"

It also seems like repentance and redemption are being given time limits here. Those two things are constant and never ending things. The desire for justice forces us to want to see her pay for the evil that she has done, but the Gargoyles Universe is like the real universe in many ways. And in real life evil isn't always punished, and justice doesn't always shine though. Demona has to change her way of thinking and make an attempt to try and change her current actions but sometimes it's just impossible to completely atone for past deeds, and some past deeds are impossible to forgive AND punish.

Not only that, but we also have to consider that she has lived over a thousand year period and during many of those times the morality was very different from what it was today. People killed each other left and right in the middle ages so the line on what she can be judged on grows a little fuzzy. Her CITY OF STONE attacks must be counted but can we count something like her lashing out at a person who just happened to be standing in front of her while she is fleeing a mob trying to kill her in the 1100's but appears from her perspective to have been trying to block her escape?

In the end it shouldn't be the punishment so much that should concern us, rather it should be if she has finally absored the lessons that an eye for an eye doesn't have to be taken literally, that hate and death are not the right ways to go, and you can't pay back an injustice with another injustice.

Now how can we know if she has truly redeemed herself and changed or if she is just acting? Maimonides, the famous medieval Jewish scholar says this:

"What constitues complete repentance? When one is confronted by the identical situation wherein he previously sinned and it is within his power to commit the sin again, and he nevertheless does not succub because he wished to repent, and not because he is afraid or physically to weak [to repeat the sin]."

The Babylonian Talmud also put it like this:

"How is one proved to be a true penitent? Said Rabbi Judah: If the opportunity to commit the same sin presents itself on two occasions, and he does not yield to it."


There is too much of an emphasis on punishment. It's understandable since after all when we see evil done, we have a desire to see it made right. But that can't always be done. Some cases are unique. Demona, if she wasn't immortal could easily be solved with death or imprisionment or something like that but she IS immortal. She stands outside the rules that we know and we have to adapt them to deal with her. The important thing is to have her change since she is immortal and will be around long after those who have judged her have turned to dust.
Airwalker
Saturday, July 17, 1999 08:52:38 PM
IP: 239.new-york-23-24rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

**enters the room, switching out the candles and sitting down in the big chair once more**

Status: Ohhh boy ... my mother's thinking of writing a journal of this whole experience with grandma in the hospital, showing it to her and saying "You see how much of a pain in the @$$ you've been?"
**deep breath**
Okay, the reason for this, you ask? She pulled the respirator tube out ... *herself.* The doctors decided to see what happened, then about two hours later they put it back in. **rubs temples** If I weren't so worried about her, I'd be frustrated. That's par for the course for her.

Robby: Hey, that wasn't even *close* to Traveler range. :)

SJ: Thanks for the acclaim of "Team Alpha." I promise, the rest of it will live up to, if not the hype, then at least the quality of this story.
New Punisher: **impersonates Cartman** KICK ... @$$!!

Entity: No need to come up with anything ... merely keeping her in your thoughts is enough. :)

Milady Arianna: Thanks bunches. :)
Oh, and the percent sign bug ... if you put in a percent sign, everything typed after it disappears.

"South Park": I personally would imagine that Parker and Stone are laughing their a***s off, seeing that the situation they created at the beginning of their movie is being played out in real life.
(To tell the truth, I read an article about the fight with the ratings board that SP went through ... it was submitted to the MPAA *six* times, the first five coming back with an NC-17. Parker and Stone actually *thanked* the MPAA for making their movie funnier!)

August birthdays: It's gonna be party time! **pulls out cellphone** Hello, I'd like to order the world's largest Execution cake and four remotes ... :)

Warpmind: I haven't played it, but that wouldn't happen to be the debate that the F-word is the most versatile word in the English language, is it?

SOROW: Haven't had a chance, though I will be going to see her on Monday ... haven't seen her since the night she was taken to the hospital.

Patrick, re: comparing Demona to Xena: Uhmm ... I'm not sure that Xena is the right comparison to make if you're trying to say that Demona shouldn't lose her child. (Xena's son was killed by Hope, Gabrielle's daughter by Dahak.) I'll give you that Xena and Demona are both women with living moral barometers.

**sits back in the big chair, focusing his nightly meditation again on the two candles ... the tall one for Ravyn and the votive for his grandmother**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Saturday, July 17, 1999 08:43:42 PM
IP: modem4.i-is.com

Paul> You can have character development without turning a hero into a villian or vise-versa. Sergei Kravinov (aka Kraven the Hunter), in the begining was a jungle man in a loincloth, nothing more. As the series progressed however, you learned more things about him such as his hertiage of russian nobility, that he was actually a very old man who had kept himself young with various jungle potions, etc. Gradually, Kraven became more and more obsessed with defeating "The Spider" and his already precarious sanity broke. Finally, Kraven defeated Spider-Man, drugged him, and buried him alive. To prove his absolute superiority over Spider-Man he put on Peter Parker's costume and took his place. Then, he had a drink, put a rifle into his mouth, and shot himself. His dying thought was "They told me my mother was insane..."
Now while I am not suggesting that TGS kill off Demona (or anyone) this is an example of how a character can be developed without changing the core of him/her.

Todd: I veiw gargoyles as a comic book universe because it deals with beings of incredible power struggling for what is right and just. The storyline is continuous (at least before it was cancelled) and the villians are interesting. I think the final proof that it is a comic book universe is simply because there are clones in it ;)
Ash
Saturday, July 17, 1999 07:54:48 PM
IP: yktnsk01d010201108.sk.sympatico.ca

The holy grail> Some people haven't been paying enough attention to the Gargoyles universe I guess. It's already been found. Percival (ie Duval peoples) has it still. IT DOES GRANT IMMORTALITY!. The leader of the illuminati has had had it in his office like forever man whoooooooooooooooooooooo. *s*
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Saturday, July 17, 1999 07:53:14 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

On Demona> I called her reformed in a single episode, because before that episode were her Hunter's Moon actions -attempt at genocide - and after that she has not done even a slightly bad deed. From genocide to simple obnoxiousness in a single ep. And Angela couldn't get Demona to see her point of view after whole months of talking to her in 'The Reckoning'. No, where I am concerned Demona's redemption came about simply as a result of bad characterisation.

<<I don't like the notion of punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.>>
Well, from a moral point of view we wouldn't like the Wyvern massacre either, but storywise it led to the whole Gargoyles series, didn't it?
Now the Hunter's Moon example is excellent. What if something that Demona did led to Angela's death? Wouldn't that be something interesting to see, her reaction to Angela's death?

<< Besides, think about the impact that her death would have on Goliath and Broadway. Why punish them as well for Demona's actions>>

Because life is sometimes unfair? :)

I don't believe killing Angela is the best way, but I think it's better than nothing at all. Have Andrea killed perhaps. Or something. But not nothing. She has to pay somehow, not because of morality but because of story drama.
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Saturday, July 17, 1999 07:40:08 PM
IP: athe530-a034.otenet.gr

I've got to agree with Patrick that killing Angela to punish Demona would definitely a dreadful way of doing it. Why should Angela die for something that her mother did? (Of course, it did almost happen in "Hunter's Moon" when she first met Jason Canmore). I don't like the notion of punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty. Besides, think about the impact that her death would have on Goliath and Broadway. Why punish them as well for Demona's actions?

Also, think of something else. There's a fine line between calling for punishment and calling for revenge. How long can you keep on demanding that Demona be punished for her actions before you start to become like her, I wonder?
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, July 17, 1999 07:09:09 PM
IP: 208.19.239.145

Exin... Are you ok?! Do ya need hugz?!? I think you're coolness though!

Eyes Wide Shut- I have no interest in the movie other than seeing everyone naked and doin whatever... call me shallow, but that's the only reason. The moive I wanna see because I want to be entertained- South Park and The Haunting.

SJ- Poppin tabs? Am I right to assume that means gels? Pretty!
Anyway, yeah! There's the Manson experience, then there's the "Rollin, Trippin Balls, Manson Experience!" So it'd only be right to do the same thing watching his movie.
Ohh, you say "Fooking" too?!?? YaY!!!

Buffy- I hate Oz..., hate him..., lucky bastard. (Is it weird that's the only part I refer to?)

<<"fokken," which means "to beat against.">>
Wowness, that's pretty "to beat against" cool!
JackaL
Saturday, July 17, 1999 07:01:49 PM
IP: spider-tj074.proxy.aol.com

Punishing Demona: *sits and thinks for a long while about this one* Hm … you know, having bad things happen to Demona as punishment would just be too darn cliche for me. In the real world, very few evil acts come back to truly reek karmic retribution on people, especially the rich and powerful. Having the story tellers simply connive some twist of fate to promote more suffering from the suffering Demona has wrought seems to cheapen the realism of the story. Also, punishment during and after redemption seems out of place. Negative actions are supposed to reap the whirlwind as a result, but this seems like positive trends making you vulnerable all of the sudden. No, what regaining your conscience and heart get you are emotional and spiritual backlashes from what you have done.

A fitting punishment, beyond the curse of immortality, loneliness, the Hunters, the responsibility for the murder of her own Clan … *thinks for a while longer*

Daymares *quietly* I know how heavy they can weigh just from sins of omission and negligence, I could see Demona being absolutely plagued and wracked mentally with much more intense visions for her wanton destruction and murder. Walking into the office, and suddenly zoning out as she got distracted. Having daydreams of her youth in Wyvern, quickly dissolving into images of her standing amidst the rubble of her kin. Gargoyle claws reaching up, somehow animated from the death, raised in supplication. The voices of her slaughtered rookery siblings whispering … louder and louder … the claws grasping at her legs, trying to grab a piece of her life, shaking her, the chorus of whispers becoming more and more audible until she makes out the angry, hurt question, "why … why … Why?" And then, left with no other answer than her own responsibility, "awakening" from the daymare, drenched in sweat and screaming … Settling her heart-rate, immersing herself back in work through the tears of agony … glancing down at the rug as she thinks she seems claws out of the bottom corners of her vision … until the dreams consume her again … dreading when she finally has to sleep … for in sleep, the daymares seem like gentle fantasies compared to the nightmares that ride her … and now she has no anger, no denial to hide behind. Her soul is vulnerable, and is being torn at for the rest of her immortal existence.

Thoughts on the Grail:
I personally can't wait to see Pendragon again, independent of this war, which I think cheapened many opportunities for the characters to develop. The Grail Quest holds special meaning for me, especially from Mallory's Arthur. I wonder if Arthur has truly learned the lesson of the Grail Quest: That to obtain the Grail, one must be pure of heart as well as deed. To seek it for pride and perfection of knighthood was the failing of all of Arthur's knights and Arthur himself. It eventually led to the undoing of Camelot as well. Only one who seeks the Grail who is convinced of his unworthiness and is doing it for a selfless reason like duty or compassion should be able to obtain it. The other thing is that the Grail really was never an artifact per se, something like a trophy to put on the mantle, but the Arthurian symbol of Grace. I'd think that the power of the Grail lies not in the cup, but in the cupbearer's connection to the One who's blood was poured from it: Grace.

It would be an interesting thought that there was nothing at all special about the cup of a carpenter, that the cup was the same as any modern drinking glass. It would be very interesting if the Grail was not a specific glass, but whatever glass rested in the hand of the cupbearer. I wrote a scene once where a cleric/paladin/sohei type was faced with a dying man, wounded horribly, and as the doctors turned away, trying the pull the white sheet down, he stopped them and demanded a glass of water … :) The rest is likely best for your imagination and my actual story. I hate synopsis.

Robby: Welcome Back!

Coyote: I'm praying for your family, my friend.

Arrianna: I remember the AP exams. I was so freaked out when I opened mine. I was a little worried about Computer Programming and I'd gotten a C second quarter because a stupid magnet had obliterated an unbacked-up version of an integral file on my term project and I'd been unable to re-piece it. I should've rebuilt from the ground up *grumbles* Anyway, I totally flipped when I got back the 5, especially since that gave me an "A" on my final exam grade. Actually, AP credits are very cool. I started College with roughly 28 and a half credits from advanced testing and stuff. Since I still was to spend 4 years at school, I've laid back to 4 courses a semester for 4 years. Definitely gave me a better freshman year than just taking the 3 year run at it. Of course, I may just be a slacker … *G*

David G: Excellent, I hate it when chronicles just putter out. Come to think of it, I wonder what happened to my friend Ben's Vampire Hunter Chronicle with the Bridgewater State University Gamers Guild … it was a very cool concept for a mystery in New Orleans in the World of Darkness.

Hm … there is something definitely wrong with my weekend … I went out and bought a bean stuffed Pikachu and Eevee … *glowers at Lexy playfully* This is all Your fault,, you know that? Well, at least it wasn't a Clefairy … *shakes his head*

Later folks.

Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Saturday, July 17, 1999 06:58:54 PM
IP: 1cust36.tnt2.brockton.ma.da.uu.net

Patrick> About killing Anglea, I was joking. If all you care about is the dramatic implications for Demona's development, killing Angela is a good move, if you do it right. But obviously, you have to consider more factors than just Demona's development. Dying to atone for Demona's sins is not terribly fair for Angela, or Broadway, or anybody else. That's why I said it would be kind of extreme.

About Xena> The question of whether she should be punished or not is very complex. (Demona, too) From a strictly legal perspective, yes she should. However, the entire concept of Grace (if you're a Christian, I don't know the equivelents in any other religion) is that you DESERVE to be punished, but you dont' NEED to be punished, and that the greater good, for others, and for yourself, is more important than black and white justice.

Xena, by fighting the other warlords, and disrupting Aries' plans, is punishing herself to some extent. She's trying to undo the damage she did before.

For Demona, to get back to a gargoyles related topic, I think the real issue is that she needs to see that what she did in the past was wrong, and that some of that debt needs to be repaid. That will almsot have to involve some kind of 'punishment' be it physical or emotional or both. It might be something imposed from outside, or it might be a personal decision she makes.

Of course, Timedancer has made this whole question a bit more complicated, since we know, to some extent, what Demona's status in the Gargoyles community will be in the future. I don't even begin to have the energy to work through the implications right now.

My personal favorite take on the subject is the way Pistoff handled it in G2K. Demona used the Avalon spell to go to Avalon, and from there went wherever Avalon sent her, wherever she was needed.

Very good idea, Pistoff. My compliments. The plug is free :)
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Saturday, July 17, 1999 06:58:42 PM
IP: pppa33-resalefortworth2-2r1005.saturn.bbn.com

Back with another 2 cents, as this is a topic I feel pretty strongly about...

First, I'd really like anyone who thinks that killing Angela would be an acceptable means of punishing Demona to pause a moment and think long and hard about that. To me, that statement is akin to being in favor of punishing your kids by shooting their pets... and I find it rather disturbing.

As to the way TGS has handled Demona (and understand that I am stating my personal opinions on this), I most certainly do not see that she was "reformed in a single episode." In fact, I wouldn't consider her to be reformed at all yet. Though she's definitely on the path towards being reformed, she still has a lot of things to overcome before she can be called reformed. When Angela confronted her in early season one, yes, that was an important moment in the evolution of Demona's character, but by no means did it mark an instantaneous reformation.

And finally, since the idea of Demona someday making penance by going on some type of quest, let me offer up what I feel to be a more apt comparison to Demona than some of the others that have been brought up (i.e., Hitler, Darth Vader, etc). In fact, I'm actually surprised no one else has brought it up yet... going for another fictional character comparison, what about Xena? If you follow the backstory that has been presented in the series, Xena has done some terrible, atrocious things in her past, too, (her personal body count would probably rival Demona's). But now she's trying to change. She even has a living and breathing moral compass following her around in Gabrielle, just like Demona now has Angela. Unlike Demona, though, Xena has reached the stage where she regrets her past actions and is trying to atone from them... so I put out the question, should Xena still be punished, too?
Patrick Toman
Saturday, July 17, 1999 06:41:53 PM
IP: 98afd0ce.ipt.aol.com

Robby> Welcome Back, brother!

Coyote> I like your song! And it's great to hear that your grandmother is improving. Have you told her that all your computer friends are praying for her? :)

Arianna> Glad you like my song... the bagpipes are just beautiful! Congrats on your scores and getting your braces off! I just barely missed getting braces myself...

Birthdays> Good heavens! We're going to have a major celebration in August! Cake and beer and marshmellows for everyone...
SOROW
Saturday, July 17, 1999 04:32:16 PM
IP: usr11-dialup269.mix1.irving.cw.net

Concerning Demona, I believe that punishment should be handed out to her. Not by the heroes, but by the story. The heroes may not care if she's punished, assuming she's reformed but she has to be punished or that would be a terrible waste of an opportunity for the story.

Killing Angela may be unfair for Angela but many gargoyles died without deserving it: Life is unfair. However it's also very dramatic. Not punishing Demona is very undramatic. And her guilt would only be enough punishment if it drove her half-insane.

On the whole I'll repeat my belief that TGS screwed up Demona in a far worse way than TGC did. TGC simply had her be allied with a human whose motives she didn't know. (Something like her alliance with Xanatos, but stupider on her behalf). TGS had her reformed for no adequate reason in a single episode (because Angela waved her finger angrily) with her greatest character flaw right now be her dislike for Delilah... sigh...
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet,gr]
Saturday, July 17, 1999 03:11:12 PM
IP: athe530-c056.otenet.gr

Just to insert my 2 cents...

Regarding "punishment for Demona" - In case anyone is forgetting, Demona already _does_ have to pretty much live her life as a human, thanks to Puck. And as for the suggestion that killing Angela would be a fitting punishment, well... that's not exactly being fair to Angela, now is it?
Patrick Toman
Saturday, July 17, 1999 01:19:36 PM
IP: 98aa38e7.ipt.aol.com

Robby: Thanks for the lowdown, however unnecessary. (I got the info already, but hey, glad you made the effort.) I see you have a villain called Vincent. Please, don't tell me his last name is Vega?

Not much time to write now, gotta catch you later, ok?

Oh, and for the "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" debate, well, click my name for an interesting speech on the subject. And before you ask, no, it is not my voice, and I have no knowledge (carnal, unlawful or otherwise) of its origin.

Enjoy.

*Pulls up an A-10 Gatling and starts taking potshots at DC, CD, Elsewhere Man and all the other villains of their evil kind.*
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:49:16 PM
IP: mp-217-228-130.daxnet.no

Jenniren > "slurp him up with a wet vac" ... ROFL!!

Warpmind > Henrietta Vandermere? Ouch is right! And I thought Tiffany Vandermere was bad!

Glimmer > I wanna see the pics!!!

Pistoff > actually, the acronym wasn't the actual _origin_ of that word; it's from the Old German "fokken," which means "to beat against." Charming, huh?

Swearing and Disney > Frollo was grand, but I think my fave in that category is still Maleficent's "Now you will face me, oh Prince, and all the Powers of Hell!"

Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:37:12 PM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

NewsBreaker Hotline: John F. Kennedy Jr. is missing. He was piloting a plane late last night to Martha's Vineyard, but as of yet it has not arrived.....I'm not a JFK Jr. fan, or of any of the Kennedy clan really, but I'd feel pretty bad if this guy is fish food right about now. Hope this turns out okay.

Jenniren: No offense, but I think the "her guilt is punishment enough" defense is about as lame as they come. First off, as of now I don't see her feeling guilty about anything; as it's been said before by others, she feels that all of her actions were justified, so therefore she doesn't feel guilty about killing a human, for example. Secondly, I'm sure that Hitler *could* have felt real bad about ordering all those Jews to be killed. The fact of the matter is, bad feelings don't do a hell of a lot of in the way of punishment. That's like, whey you did something bad as a kid, you cop the old "no need to punish me, I've learned my lesson, I feel real bad about what I've done!" plea.
I feel that Demona could be redeemed, but she needs to be punished in some sort of way. I like the suggestion of turning her into a human for an indefinite period of time; if she had to live as one of us long enough, that would be fitting, and could even help her redemption as she could see what it is like to be one of us all the time, non-stop, year round. But I can not accept the "guilty feelings" defense; that doesn't work for murderers and thieves in today's justice system, it shouldn't work for Demona.
I'm not trying to bury her under a freakin' mountain here--if she is to be redeemed, we can't give her too intense of a punishment, or else she goes psycho again--but she has to suffer some sort of retribution for her crimes. Any or all of them. I would think that if she DID become reformed, she would realize that she needs to atone for her crimes, and some form of punishment, however "softball" you want it to be, she should accept.
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:30:03 PM
IP: 207-172-52-142.s142.tnt1.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

Hi folks. I'm back, and I'm fully conscious. This is a noted impovement over yesterday. Let's see what's important to talk about.

Demona's Redemption> Since this will no longer just be a circular argument with Paul, I'll get back into it. I always wanted Demona to be redemed becaues of all the villians, she was the one who had the most "good" motivations. Her desire to protect gargoyles from humans was somewhat admirable, even though she was so consumed by vengance and denial that she went about it in a bad way. City of Stone, and a few other episodes, gave the viewers more knowledge of Demona's background and motivation than we had of any of the other villians. Since she wasn't mindlessly evil, or simply power hungry and amoral like Xanatos, she was somewhat likeable. Add in the fact that I'm a sucker for a "damsel in distress" and my fate was sealed.

Demona's Punishment> Really, she should be punished somehow, but not with some kind of punative strike or imprisonment. How could you possibly weigh the gravity of her crimes? Instead, either fate needs to take something important from her (Leaving her stuck as Dominique for the forseeable future would be the perfect poetic justice - Killing Angela would be good , but that's too extreme) or she needs to be given a quest, a duty, or something that forces her to live the rest of her life trying to make up for the mistakes of the past.

Agnostic> "A", meaning without, right. I was tired yesterday. You guys were just lucky that my description of Celtic Christianity didn't turn into a description of Amway.

Personal Triumph> My Vampire chronicle ended last night. (And there was great rejoycing) The intrepid group of vampires had to save the city from a crazy 6th gen Malkavian who was trying to summon up the Wild Hunt, only the Wild Hunt had been tainted by the Wyrm, so having them alive in the mortal world would be even worse than usual.

The story went well, the players really enjoyed it, and, best of all, the game actually reached a stopping point, instead of just dying from lack of interest. I hate when that happens, because then I never get to find out how the story ended.

Fanfic Progress Report> I only have one more major scene to write, so I might get it done today, since nothing else important is supposed to happen.

Runaways> That was a TGC episode? Oh well. I don't remember it being all that bad, but then most of the rest of TGC was so bad that maybe the bar was lowered, and I just didn't notice by comparison. Thanks for the information, everybody.

Pizza Delivery> I never worked for a pizza place that did delivery, so I only had to deliver special orders, like the time that the local university symphony conductor bought pizza for his whole orchestra. He tipped me $20, so that was pretty cool. On the other hand, after carying 20 to 50 pizzas around, my car always smelled like pizza for a week. (Since we didn't really do delivery, we never had those cool warmer bags, which might help with the smell a little, I don't know) I worked in the kitchens of three different pizza places. Dough prep has given me Corpral Tunnle Sendrome (sp?).
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:11:42 PM
IP: pppa16-resalefortworth1-1r1035.saturn.bbn.com

I don't know Jenniren
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:01:46 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Taleweaver wrote - [Why do you feel Demona is worth redemption. We have a whole host of bad guys. Some who've done worst than Demona, like Madoc and get a mace in the face. Others like Coldsteel who've done far less. Yet Demona is the one most people are clamoring for to move away from the Dark Side...]

I don't know that it's so much that she's 'worth' redemption than that she has a potential for redemption. If there were any possibility for Coldsteel to be redeemed people might be "clamoring" for that too. But have you seen anything at all in his behavior that suggests he could ever change from what he is now? His evil is so much a part of his rather one-dimensional character that I don't believe it is possible for him to be redeemed, so why bother clamoring for it. Also we've all seen Demona in "Vows" back when she was young and innocent. We remember her saying "I don't want to BE you!" to her older self. We've never seen Coldsteel as having a soft side. Even in flashbacks back to when he was younger, he was always a selfish conniving opportunistic brute.

Aaron wrote - [Personally, I liked the old Demona, the one who kicked @$$ and didn't bother taking names because they were all worthless humans anyway.]

Yeah I liked watching her kick @$$ too. I'd get vicarious pleasure out of watching her. But she's sort of a static character when she's always portrayed that way. Though when she whacked Madoc with the mace I wondered why she stopped with one blow. Consider all the horrible things he did in the past and how he'd nearly succeeded in wiping out her race. In her place I wouldn't have stopped until I'd hammered him into fairy pulp. Titania and Oberon would have had to slurp him up with a wet vac.

James Birdsong how do you read so fast?

Robby - Wellcome back.

S.J. wrote - [Demona Debate: The thing that I still want to know is, sure she can be reformed, but where is her punishment? She's done one heck of a lot of bad things in her life, but way I see it, she hasn't really been punished for...oh, say for instance, that little "kill all the humans" thing.]

I think her punishment for her part in the Wyvern massacre and her betrayal of Macbeth is the life she's had to lead because of her actions. And if she ever comes to the point where she takes responsibility for her past actions, the guilt she'll have to live with will be worsee punishment than any kind of judgment from outside. What sort of punishment could you give her for the City of Stone massacre? I can't think of anything worse than the realization that some of the people she smashed could have been friends to her like Andrea Calhoun. Which is more important, reforming a 'villain' or punishing them? If you had to choose between punishing and reforming, which would you choose? What if the punishment prevented the reforming? Keep in mind what Airwalker said about how she 'has' to be redeemed because she is immortal. I think her 'punishment' has to come from within.

Jenniren
Saturday, July 17, 1999 11:16:36 AM
IP: user-2ivf7pb.dialup.mindspring.com

Real quick for Robby: I've heard that, sometime in the fall, I believe the WB will be airing the Pokemon movie (since, of course, they have the rights for the show). That movie is actually two films in one: "Pikachu's Summer Vacation" and "Mewtwo Strikes Back". So, in some form or fashion, Mewtwo will make an appearance next season, along with a whole slew of other new Pokemon episodes. :)
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Saturday, July 17, 1999 10:38:33 AM
IP: 207-172-52-142.s142.tnt1.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

-continues-

Yeah ,i'm a victim ,like Demona ,but my past was a bit more ..Hmmm...*thinks* ...More changing ...i was born by a machine ,designed for war ...against the rulers of our planet ...

#Click on my name for a "About Exin"#

..i will add some of my past when i have the time...

-gone-
Exin
Saturday, July 17, 1999 09:53:07 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Sorry for the last post.

About Demona>I feel now a bit getting in your kind of conversation about Demona... I know Demona very much too.. Hmm... She left me like everybody ... I can only hope that i reach her again... .. .She still takes a place in my heart if she still want or not...
Exin
Saturday, July 17, 1999 09:49:04 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Ash-For core personalities not changing, well, there's such a thing as 'Character Development'. Yeesh.

Jenniren-Good idea. I may try it. Although keep in mind that sometimes when addressing someone I'll forget their name. Not most people, but most times, yes.

Demona's Punishment-Bad idea. If someone tried to make her suffer, well, that makes things bad. She'll probably make her own atonement, once she becomes okay. Note about her: She did not ever go to the Dark Side. That is a STAR WARS Element pertaining to its 'special abilities factor'. Who says darkness even represents evil in GARGOYLES?
Speaking of darkness representing evil, there's only one story that, when using light, and dark, has used dark for goodness, light for evilness. Well, only one that I can remember, and I was pleased with the plot idea.

"I was born to walk the skies."-Krelian
XENOGEARS
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Saturday, July 17, 1999 08:23:47 AM
IP: 169.morristown-06-07rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

If nobody wants to hear the stoy..You suck ,we rule! Internet on C64!
Exin
Saturday, July 17, 1999 08:10:13 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

And its back! The percent sign error! Just be on the lookout, and whenever you write @#$^& or 78 percent, be sure to avoid the actual symbol on the 5 key! Otherwise, any part of your message following it will be cut off!
Robby
Saturday, July 17, 1999 04:53:30 AM
IP: spider-we051.proxy.aol.com

Just testing to see if the stupid percent sign glitch is back in effect...

Robby
Saturday, July 17, 1999 04:35:27 AM
IP: spider-we051.proxy.aol.com

Hi all!!

I'd just like to start by saying happy 30th Aniversary to the Apollo 11 mission,and I also would like thank everyone who responded to my questions,THANKS GUYS!!:)

Robby:Welcome back!

Robby again:Your Birthday is August 6th? Woah... Green Baron's is August 4th. And MINE is August 5th... Neat!>>My birthday is 7th August(looks like it's going to be a birthday week in the CR come August:))

Demona:Personally I'd love to see her remain a villain(antagonist,victim,she's a little of all of these take your pick:))but I agree with Airwalker she has to be reformed now otherwise she will be unstoppable later on.

C'yas later!
Xanathar
Melbourne, victoria, Australia
Saturday, July 17, 1999 04:13:31 AM
IP: 203.29.192.74

Robby> I hate that new mandate...oh, I'm sorry, "request by the President"...its such bull. You wouldn't believe how much my friends and I had to go through to get in to see South Park.

And now that we have seen it, to paraphrase Cartman, "It has *not* warped our fragile little minds."
Entity
Saturday, July 17, 1999 03:45:58 AM
IP: ely-oh5-54.ix.netcom.com

**Robby enters through the chimney, because someone suggested it at some point.**

Well, I'm finally back, and I've got nearly two weeks of CR material to cover. I had fun where I was, but I missed you guys, particularly Heather. **Gives Heather a kiss, not caring if SJ pulls out the hose.** Also came home to discover 250 something odd emails. Hoo boy... All in all, I'll be busy the next couple days, and this should be fairly long... And there likely won't be an RP, due to its length...

Lets see... To start, what have I done for the last two weeks? Basically, I was in San Angelo with my cousin Bryan, and we watched a lot of anime and sci-fi. I also added the last 5 Dragonball Z movies to my collection, I now have 9-13. YES! Saw Buck Rogers in the Twenty Fifth Century, co-starring Erin Grey, the ORIGINAL Hello Nurse... Also saw Arsenic and Old Lace... Now a lot of the Warner Brothers animated gags make sense... Saw the entire Project A-KO series, several Godzilla movies, and more. It was fun, but I'm glad to be back. Now, the CR...

Hmm, it seems the start of last week had another insane contest, with short little posts much like the great strange contest the night of an award show. Interesting... And no episode posted due to server troubles. WHy is it whenever I go away there are server troubles? Not that I can actually do anything about them, but it seems to happen everytime...

Cheezes- **Goes into a Pinky impression** It's a world of cheezes! Yay! Wensleydale! Cheddam! Edilpilzkaze! Brie! I want to eat them all! **Snaps out of it** Oh yes, Brian and I also watched every episode of ANimaniacs and P&TB ever made. His animation collection rivals mine...

Argent- Scott MacNeil did NOT do the voice of Depth Charge. Its just by that point, they needed deep voiced actors to counter all of Scott's characters, so Depth Charge DOES sound a bit like Piccollo, but it isn't Scott McNeil. (And I should know, a Beastwars marathon is another thing I went through in the last two weeks. Brian had never seen Beastwars before... We didn't get much sleep that day and night...)

The New Wierd Al Album- Interesting. Some of the songs, like The Saga Begins and Jerry Springer were great. (I added the music video of The Saga Begins to my musicals tape by the way) Grape Fruit Diet seemed a bit similar to "Fat" to me... And some of Al's original stuff was... Insane. What dissapointed me was some songs that deserved to be filked just got thrown into his polka and lost. Oh well... Maybe the next one in three years will be better...

Southpark- The theater Brian and I went to see it at is rather screwed up... They let me buy the ticket and then after I went to see the movie the asked for ID... Since I don't have any form of ID, they wouldn't let me in. Not that it would have mattered, since I'm a whole whopping three weeks away from 17 anyway... Go figure... At least I got a double refund back because I made a rather nasty scene out of the matter. Grr... I'll just see it here sometime... WOn't be as much fun without being able to comment to my cuz reactions. Ah well... Ended up showing him Tarzan instead... But even that took some work since he boycotted Disney when they cancelled Gargoyles.

Superheroes- Heroes are the greatest when they risk something. Superman is NOT a hero most of the time. Sure he does good, but he's more or less invincible and unstoppable. No risk means no courage, which is why other characters are better usually. Its only on the rare occassions where he fights a villain that can actually hurt him or the ones he cares about that he gets interesting, which is precicely WHY Lois falls off a building more times than Elisa on her worst day. I may go into a discussion on how this contrasts with Gargs later, when I'm not writing an overly lengthy post. Also there's the fact I've kinda missed the discussion on this one...

Ravyn and Coyote- Whatever happens between you two, you care about each other. Thats what I know, and thats what matters.

Deuce- You're leaving man? AH geez. So now I'm Administrator, with no "CO" about it. Hoo boy. Times, they are-a-changin... Um, I guess I'll take people's sanity for now on, at least until he gets back.

Calvin and Hobbes- THe only comic strip that was ever worth reading. Shame Watterson stopped. But I know why. It was that stupid image of Calvin peeing the Watterson never authorized that made him quit.

Warpmind- Hee... The three secretaries... I don't recall what reference Aaron first made to it, but basically... An evil villain fired his old secratary because she tried to kill him. So he had tryouts to hire a new secretary. All three were scantily clad vampir females, and evil villain has to make a decision. Twenty pages later, we learn he couldn't make up his mind, so he hired all three.

All Sailor Moon fans- The animated movies are being released in subtitles August 10th. The only one really worth picking up is Sailor Moon R, but still... Oh yeah, I believe they're all gonna be subtitled.

Pokemon- Where the heck is that Mewtwo Stikes Back movie? Grr, he's my favorite Pokemon, and he's not realy in any episodes...

TGS episodes- Once again, I refuse to say anything, because I could easily slip and spoil something. Man, I miss the days where I could actually participate in discussion on this... Blast one of the disadvantages of being on staff, I really can't participate in the Gargoyle aspect of this here Gargoyles comment room!

Oh my... I'm only 1/3 of the way up the CR... For LAST week! Eesh. now I remember why I make sure to try and check in at least twice a day...

Mary- That wasn't big. No trouble will be gotten for it. THIS post however, may be of Traveler proportions...

Kyryn- Posts that should have at least one thing Gargoyles related eh, okay... Eee... Am I deviating from that or what? Hmm...

Early High School years- They suck because everybody else can beat you up!

Male witches- The full extent of my knowledge in this area stems from Bewitched, and in that male witches were called Warlocks.

SJ- Vinnie as a villain? Aw dang, you've read my unreleased fics! No wait, that's Vincent that's the badguy, not Vinnie...

Gargs as a barbershop quartet- The trio and Goliath, I think... On the other hand, Brooklyn, Owen, Vinnie, and the Magus would really make Jeff Bennet earn that paycheck!

New Pack Member- Going with absolutley no TGS data and just pure speculation, I always thought the irony of having a SAINT Bernard in a team of villains would be cool...

Lexy- How did I know you'd think of Lexington when you heard Wierd Al's new song about computers? **Shrugs** And I also found that Tarzan scene... Interesting. (And such fun on repeat viewings!)

Lady A of A- Your Birthday is August 6th? Woah... Green Baron's is August 4th. And MINE is August 5th... Neat!

Fun way to deal with Dis Connect- Have him be Steve Irwin's sidekick for a few days! However, I'm not particularly peeved at Mr. DC at the moment, if anyone wants to use that, feel free to use it.

Lexy- When Brooklyn and Sata went to the future, Lexington really just wasn't mentioned. What that means about his actual fate has yet to be revealed though... But his life may not be all misery as you seem to think. The TGS writers may be very nice to him yet. On the other hand, we could kill him in the first episode of season 3. Can't really say.

By the way, in my fics its Brooklyn who gets all the abuse and Lexington who gets off being pretty happy most of the time...

RPs with Thailog- Anyone remember my early RP's where Thailog kidnapped Jim, and was so thouroughly annoyed he returned Jim and scrapped all plans involving him?

Aaron- Dis Connect can only disrupt anything mechanical, not electrical. However, his evil twin Connection Denied I'm not so sure about...

And what kind of bumper magnet did you get from Demona May?

SJ- You are aware that Wierd Al's "The Saga Begins" is based off an old song titled "American Pie," right? The catchiness of the tune should be credited to Don McLean...

The episode Future Tense- Unfortunatley... I can't have a fair opinion on this episode ever, because one of my friends ruined it and told me it was a dream before I ever saw it! Grr... Oh well... Still one of the freakin' best episodes of the series with some of the greatest moments, including Brooklyn decking Goliath, Claw with a beard, Brooklyn and Demona, Broadway's death scene, and "evil" Lex. Shame it wasn't a longer episode with more of the characters, but if it had been a two parter or greater, the dream ending would've been more of a Deus Ex Machina than anything else.

Thailog picture- But we DO have such a picture! Just post the image of Goliath , then light the cursor over the picture to invert the image!

Brooklyn's EVIL clone- Ooh, I'm gonna have to draw one of them!

Favorite Villains- Megabyte. He's cunning, rich, suave, smart, powerful, got Wolvering claws without being a cheap knock off, a cool design, and he's voiced by Tony Jay. That's tough to beat.

SKippy- Klingons prefer Hash Browns over Onion Rings? Hmm.

Hmm, seems the room wasn't cleared last week on time... Probably my fault. I'd been expecting to be home by then and hadn't prepped anyone else. Oops...

Philip Jacobs- Nice seeing ya man! Its been far too long!

Anyhow, I'm currently at about 3 AM Monday, and this is pretty long already... I'll stop now before I lose it all and I'll talk about this week in my next post...
Robby
Saturday, July 17, 1999 03:27:30 AM
IP: spider-we072.proxy.aol.com

*Arianna appears randomly.*
Hi, all!!!!

The braces are off! They came off yesterday. I was so happy. It was great... Yet, the best was still to come. I get home, right. My sister hands my mom the mail, and I start walking up to my room because I *finally* got the fourth book in the Robert Jordan series, The Wheel of Time, and I really wanted to start reading it. So I'm on my way up to my room, and my mom says that something came for me from the college boards. Of course, for about ten seconds this baffles me. I got my SAT scores months ago, as well as my SAT II scores (which basically told me that the writing test was easy and the French test was harder than the History. Which is sad, because there's a better chance I'll major in French than history. Anyway.) I look at the envelope. It ain't the college board for SATs. It's the College Board for the AP Examinations. I just stood there, staring at the envelope for ten minutes. I did not want to open it. Not on my life. Up until the moment I opened that envelope, I could still hold onto the hope that maybe, just maybe, there would be a number higher than three on there without my having to add my two scores together to get it. FINALLY, after contemplating everything from ripping it to shreds to throwing it in the lake by my house, I opened it. Of course, I could not force myself to look at the scores. When I did, though, I just freaked out. I got a 3 on chemistry -- which, considering I knew NOTHING going in was pretty good. But the real surprise was History -- I GOT A FOUR!!!!! Me! My history teacher predicted that only three people in our class, if that, would get fours. I was not amoung those he thought would. I was one of those who *might* get a three. Did I ever prove him wrong! I am so happy. I couldn't believe it. Add that to the fact that my best friend -- and the reason I got a three on the AP Chem instead of a one, as she not only kept me sane before the test, but she also helped me study! -- got a FIVE on the AP Chem. My life is just so great this week!!!!! I am sooo happy. I CAN SKIP HISTORY IN COLLEGE! Or rather, I can place out of the normal Freshman course. Possibly. But either way, I am just so happy!!!! :) Life is good.

Robby> Welcome back!!!!

Coyote> Glad to hear that there is improvement! I'll keep you both in my prayers.

Sorow> I love the song! :)

Demona> I'm not sure why I want her to be redeemed. It's a good question. It's partially due to the fact that Goliath was in love with her once, and I have to agree with Airwalker that it's also due to the fact she's immortal. I think that, for me at least, it also has to do with the fact that I've always seen her as a very tragic villain.

Cursing> You know, it used to bother me. I would go on a guilt trip if I ever slipped and used a curse word. Those days, sadly, have long since passed into the mists of time. But "damn" -- well, as Coyote pointed out, DISNEY used it. Disney. You know, that really shocked me at the time. It didn't *bother* me, per se, but it really shocked me. It was so unexpected. Of course, given how evil Frollo was, I shouldn't have been surprised.

Everyone who commented on my braces coming off> Thanks! I am so happy. You know, I look in the mirror, and I smile, and I don't flinch anymore! But it is great. Except for that "slimy feeling" that everyone described to me who's had braces... As for retainers, right now I've only got a bottom one, and that may or may not be permanent after I get my "positioner". Which I thought was a good choice because I don't have to wear it to school, and therefore there is less of a chance I'll lose it. :) But it is good to be rid of them.

Hey, what is this...percent? sign error? I'm confused. Does it make your message go away if you use a percent sign in the body of the message or what? Not that I have much use for percentages myself, but just for knowledge's sake. :)

Shogun Raptor> <<I take it some members of the annoy-yu squad *ahem* annoy-yu as well?>> That's the mild way of putting it. Only some? :)

Well, I've gotta go. Much to do...actually, that's a lie. I'm tired, and I want to go to bed. I have to sleep if I'm gonna survive work tomorrow night. And it's Saturday morning tomorrow -- like my sisters are quiet enough to let me sleep past eight. :) Oh well. Later!
*Arianna disappears.*
Lady Arianna of Annwn
Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:50:26 AM
IP: mid-qbu-nqh-vty72.as.wcom.net

SJ> It might have to do with the fact that some athiests *aren't* comforted by their belief in no God, and therefore attack thiests (is that a word?) out of a "It must be nice" attitude.

Regarding whether or not we are intelligent animals or something more, I don't like the attitude of "It is arrogant to assume we're better, therefore we aren't". The same applies to the idea of extra-terrestrial life. I believe there probably is, but there is always the chance that there isn't... for whatever reason. We shouldn't just dismiss a possibility because it could be construed as egotism. The Earth is not the center of the universe, because it has been proven through logical means to not be, *not* because it was proven to be an ego-inspired idea.

Coyote> Glad things are looking up. I feel at a loss... I keep wanting to say "I'll keep you in my prayers"... wish there was an athiest alternative.
Entity
Friday, July 16, 1999 11:34:10 PM
IP: ely-oh5-54.ix.netcom.com

****BEGIN RP****
SJ and Wilek, followed by their respective teams, began the descent into the Devastator. They each knew that this was a battle that they had to win; no one alive (or dead), especially someone like the Borg or Thailog, should ever be allowed to possess a weapon of such terrifying power. As fast as they could while still being cautious, they jogged down the corridors leading to the engine room.
Suddenly, Wilek stopped. "Wait."
"What?" SJ asked.
The blue gargoyle cocked his head to the side. "Do you hear that?"
"What? I don't hear anything!"
"No, it's a....a sort of gibbering. And I swear I can hear footsteps."
At this warning, the team began to move slower and more carefully down the corridor. They eventually reached a sharp corner, and as they turned it---
---they ran straight into an army of Borg. Not just any Borg, but Borg GUNGANS. Somehow, a group of the floppy-eared, eye-stalked, amphibious creatures had been assimilated. And standing amongst them, holding a spear-like weapon, was their leader: Jar Jar Borg.
"Oh my God we've just entered hell," SJ groaned.
"They're almost as bad as Ewoks!" Wilek cried.
The Borg prepared to attack, as Jar Jar Borg chuckled softly. "Mesa tinkin' yousa gonna die!"
*****PAUSE RP****

Well, I'm sorry for not posting this last night, but I was too busy being RAPED by the damn server. It wouldn't let me post....of course, I found this out AFTER I had written a very long post and submitted it. Fooking computer.

Coyote: Glad to hear that your grandmother is getting better, that's certainly a blessing. And I must give you some praise for your truly excellent "WCC: Team Alpha". I can't wait for the rest of WCC!!!

JackaL: Get this, bro--Marilyn Manson is gonna make a movie! That's right, it's supposed to be sort of in the same vein as Pink Floyd's "The Wall". I don't know why, but I'd be willing to buy a ticket...Do you think people are gonna be poppin' tabs on this flick? Yeah, me too. ;)

PUNISHER FANS: This is the BEST friggin' news I've heard in one loooong time. Garth Ennis......writer of the ubercool, controversial Preacher......is gonna write a Punisher miniseries for Marvel. And Steve Dillon, Preacher artist, is gonna come with him!!! Can you imagine that? Ennis and Dillon....on Punisher....Say it with me, folks: it's an orgy of violence! An Orgy of Violence!!!

Blair Witch Project: I haven't had a chance to see it yet.....as most of you probably haven't, it's averaging maybe 1 theater per major city....but I hear it gets wide release July 30. So, if you don't make it this weekend, you just have to wait a couple weeks!!!
BTW, this movie is getting good reviews straight across the board....I don't know of anyone yet who has said any truly bad things about it...

Eyes Wide Shut: I find it amazing that no one seems willing to say anything bad about Stanley Kubrick just because he's dead. This movie looks like it blows, pure and simple. Kubrick has had some good movies (the Shining, A Clockwork Orange, the ever popular Full Metal Jacket), but this looks like a dud. The *only* reason I'd go see it was to see Nicole Kidman nekkid, and I hear there's not really that much of her in the movie. Yeah, like I'm gonna waste 7.50 to see Tommy Cruise's trick. Not happenning.

Demona Debate: The thing that I still want to know is, sure she can be reformed, but where is her punishment? She's done one heck of a lot of bad things in her life, but way I see it, she hasn't really been punished for...oh, say for instance, that little "kill all the humans" thing. Wouldn't you think it'd be just for her to face some sort of retribution? Or, as seems the case with some folks, do we just forgive her and ignore the fact the *numerous* criminal acts she has performed? I can handle her being redeemed, but I absolutely cannot accept her not facing some sort of real punishment for her deeds.

Buffy Finale: I thought it was very disappointing. Glad some others agreed with me.

Entity: I am one who finds the belief that there is *not* a God very disturbing. Is it because I want to believe in a God? Perhaps. It depends on your definition of why I want it. I do not "want" God to exist simply because I am afraid that there will be nothing after this life. If there was nothing but nothing after this world, that wouldn't really bother me. I "want" God because I find Him not as a being that is constantly holding us under His thumb, mindless automatons that he controls, but rather as a being of love and acceptance and unity. I choose to believe in Him because, personally, I find comfort and peace in Him; perhaps some would say that desire is merely the product of myself wanting to be loved and accepted. And that is partly the case, but it is much more than that. I can't really express it in words. Perhaps Kaioto can. But that, for me at least, is why I am disturbed if someone attacks my faith; if you choose to believe differently, that is fine, but why must you feel the necessity to attack that which gives me joy and comfort? I certainly never press my beliefs upon another. But this is a matter of relativity; I'm sure that atheists find it equally comforting to believe that there is nothing out there. I can't say for sure.
And I would have to agree with Kaioto about the whole "intelligent animal" debate. I like to think that humans are something more than that. Any honestly, is that such a horrible belief to have? To think that one's own species is something special, and not just a product of the randomness of evolution?

Robby: Welcome back!!!!

Doug: I hate to ask this, um...but if you could, could you give me a list of all the members of Wilek's group?

****RESUME RP****
Chuckie the Borg, assimilated from the cast of "Rugrats", ran as fast as his stubby little legs would carry him. He rushed into the Engine room, where the rest of his fellow friends were located. "Stewie, Stewie!" he cried out.
Stewie, the leader of the babies, was busy working with Brendan to keep the Devastator's engines running, as well as bringing any incapacitated systems back online. "What is it you pathetic, drooling excuse for toddler? Can't you see I am busy? Wait, why am I even asking? You can't even control your own bodily excretions, how can I hope you would understand what I'm doing?" he snapped.
Chuckie snuffled. "Those heroes! They're coming this way!"
"Yes, I know that, you fool!" Stewie said. He smiled wickedly. "I expect them to arrive here. For when they do I shall have a rather *lethal* surprise for them! Ha ha! Bwah ha ha!!!!"
****TO BE CONTINUED*****
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Friday, July 16, 1999 11:11:37 PM
IP: 207-172-41-126.s126.tnt10.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

Robby: Welcome back! :)

Steve: Ahh, thanks! I thought it was something like that, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for clearing that up. :)

James: Oh, you'll just keep on telling people to stop, eh? That's harrassment. You would do well to just forget about it and mind your own business before you become too much of a troublemaker.

Coyote: Glad to hear your grandmother's improving again. We'll all keep those good vibes coming! :)

SJ: You must've used the percent sign ... O_o
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Friday, July 16, 1999 10:00:06 PM
IP: wire-23.koalas.com

Wait, why didn't it post the rest of my message? Christ, is this thing still screwed up? God, someone's gonna pay for this @#$
Sevarius Jr.
Friday, July 16, 1999 09:36:31 PM
IP: 207-172-45-137.s137.tnt5.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

Oh good. I can post again. UNLIKE LAST NIGHT, WHEN THE MOTHER@#$
Sevarius Jr.
Friday, July 16, 1999 09:35:26 PM
IP: 207-172-45-137.s137.tnt5.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

Testing....testing....
Sevarius Jr.
Friday, July 16, 1999 09:32:33 PM
IP: 207-172-45-137.s137.tnt5.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

**enters the room, switching out the candles again. Sits down in the big chair**

Status: As hopeless as it seems, what with her being on the respirator and all, my mother spoke with the doctor for thirty minutes today, and he says that my grandmother is improving. Of course, this last week it seems that every other day she makes either an improvement or a decline, so I'm being very guarded about my hopes right now. But your good vibes are helping, folks! Thanks so much!

Entity: I have no problem with having a religion/afterlife debate in the CR, actually. It's just that at the point I am at right now, it's probably not something I *really* want to get involved in *myself.* Discuss it to yer heart's content, friend. :)

Kaioto: I'm on right now, actually (at the time this post goes through).

Doug, re: using TV characters in fics: Heh ... this afternoon I was watching SNL on Comedy Central (the infamous Andrew "Dice" Clay episode), saw the woman performing those horrible lyrics to the theme music to "Twin Peaks" and ... well ... the creativity spawns were too much for me to handle!!
So, when "Rose of Connecticut" starts up ... **blushes** ... look for an appearance to be made by FBI Agent Dale Cooper. :)

Amy da Tigger: Actually I've come up with one gargoyle halflng ... well, thirdling, actually ... who has *no* wings at all. :)

Exin, re: web browser for C64: **shudders** Why am I suddenly reminded of Weird Al's recent album's next single, "It's All About the Pentiums"?

Glimmer: Ah, Tarzan, a very good movie that I went to see again this evening. (Let's be honest here, my reasons for not seeing the new releases:
"Muppets in Space": gonna be way too many little loudmouth kids in *that* one. (Don't get me wrong, I like kids, but not when their parents can't keep control over them in a public place without having to resort to physical violence or just "lettin' them go.")
"Lake Placid" and "Arlington Road": Not up to going to thrillers (either effects-laden or psychological) without another person with me. **glances at the candle's flame, sighs, then continues**
"Eyes Wide Shut": Hey, I like Kubrick as much as the next guy, same with Cruise and Kidman ... but there's a *reason* why I waited until films like "Basic Instinct" and "Showgirls" (which, unbelievably enough, was a movie that could actually make Ed Wood's stuff look like Shakespeare in comparison) came to video before seeing them ... I would be very uncomfortable seeing that kind of film surrounded by throngs of people in a public place.)

Controversy over the word "damn": Hey, that word showed up in Disney, too. "Hunchback," to be precise, during Quasimodo's alphabet lesson:
Frollo:"D"
Quasi:"Damnation."
Frollo:"E"
Quasi:"*Eternal* damnation."

SOROW: I have a song that makes me think of TimeDancer, as well ...

Lost boys and golden girls
Down on the corner, all around the world
Lost boys and golden girls
Down on the corner and all around, all around the world ...

It doesn't matter where they're going
Or wherever they've been
'Cause they've got one thing in common, it's true
They'll never let a night like tonight go to waste
And let me tell ya something
Neither will you
Neither will you

We've gotta be fast, we were born out of time
Born out of time and alone
And we'll never be as young as we are right now
Running away, and running for home
Running for home ...

It doesn't matter where they're going
Or wherever they've been
'Cause they've got one thing in common, it's true
They'll never let a night like tonight go to waste
And let me tell ya something
Neither will you
Neither will you

Lost boys and golden girls
Down on the corner, all around the world
Lost boys and golden girls
Down on the corner and all around, all around the world ...
--
"Lost Boys and Golden Girls" (Jim Steinman, performed by Meat Loaf)

Robby: Welcome back! **sits back and grins** Hallelujah, now Heather won't be a basket case anymore!! :)

**keeps grinning as he focuses his meditations on the candle**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Friday, July 16, 1999 09:14:35 PM
IP: modem33.i-is.com

Steve Gooch and that guy in blue type> I can and will tell people to stop when I hear cursing. I accept your apologies for offending. Bible scripture or not, it is a bad word. I am not a deity so I don't expect them to stop using the word and I can't make them but holy snikies I can and will mention it when I am offended.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 09:11:49 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

I'm finally back! ABout a week later than I expected, (I was supposed to be home LAST Friday, oh well...) Haven't had a chance to read the last two weeks worth of CR posts, but I'll be getting to that soon. It's good to be back!
Robby
Friday, July 16, 1999 08:17:36 PM
IP: spider-wk022.proxy.aol.com

Stupid computer! Sorry I didn't post yesterday, but the computer couldn't find this site and a bitch was giving me a really hard time at practice! Grrrrrrrrrrr...

Coyote> I'm still praying for your grandmother... hang in there.

Theresa> It's great your mother is out of the hospital! I'll continue to pray for her recovery...

Spike> Adorable pic!

Fav TGS ep: I think Something Old, Something New
Fav Timedancer ep: Crossroads

Think of Timedancer to this song...

We left the music behind and the dance carried on
As we stole away to the seashore
We smelt the brine, felt the wind in our hair
And with sadness you paused.

Suddenly I knew that you'd have to go
Your world was not mine, your eyes told me so
Yet it was there I felt the crossroads of time
And I wondered why.

As we cast our gaze on the tumbling sea
A vision came o'er me
Of thundering hooves and beating wings
In clouds above.

As you turned to go I heard you call my name.
You were like a bird in a cage, spreading its
Wings to fly
'The old ways are lost' you sang as you flew
And I wondered why.
---"The Old Ways" by Loreena McKennitt

I must go entertain my brother now... OKIloveyoubyebye!
SOROW
Friday, July 16, 1999 08:13:34 PM
IP: usr11-dialup229.mix1.irving.cw.net

ASH - Interesting comments on Demona, but I will take issue with you on one thing; "Gargoyles" is not a super-hero series, at least not in my opinion.

1. As you pointed out, the heroes in super-hero series tend to be overshadowed by the villains, and this is certainly true; I cite the case of "The New Batman/Superman Adventures" where Superman and Batman serve largely as U.S. Cavalry figures to save the day and the focus is on the rogues' gallery of Metropolis and Gotham City. But in "Gargoyles", although there are a number of intriguing and well-developed villains, from Xanatos and Demona on down, the focus is much more on the gargoyles, who are made into genuinely interesting figures. For my own part, I found Goliath just as interesting in his own way as Demona; a medieval warrior transplanted to the modern world and trying to understand it, feeling lost in it (and all the more so since he's not even a human), finding the support, friendship, and eventually the love of the police detective who met him on his first night in that new world, learning to get used to his daughter when he meets her later on, and so on.

2. Super-heroes' lives revolve exclusively around being super-heroes; the focal point of the gargoyles' lives, however, is that they're gargoyles, members of an ancient non-human species dangerously close to extinction and needing to find a way of surviving and rebuilding. (Compare that with Superman, who's the last Kryptonian but isn't losing any sleep over it, and whose being an alien seems to be just a plot device to explain his super powers).

3. Super heroes have secret identities (Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Peter Parker, etc.). The gargoyles don't (unless you count their statue forms during the day). The characters that do have secret identities are Demona, Puck, and Titania (as Dominique Destine, Owen Burnett, and Anastasia Renard).

Well, that's a start and it's not complete, but you see what I mean.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 16, 1999 07:49:59 PM
IP: 205-242-93-83.dialup-stl.primary.net

TODD - I do agree that you don't have to be Jewish to have heard of the Golem legend. Perhaps I should rephrase it like this: Renard is a scientist who has most likely dedicated his life to science. He also strikes me as a person who would not believe in something like religion, myth, and such without actual evidence in front of his eyes. So I don't see him spending much time studying Jewish legend as much as I do see him spending all his time on science.

I think that Renard heard of the Golem legend as a child, and then as he grew older dismissed it as just legend. When he saw Goliath, at first he thought he was just another product of science, something that Gen-U-Tech grew. When he found out he wasn't, I think that he might have set out to learn a little more about Gargoyles, and might have done some research into myths and legends on Gargoyles.

Now that he has found out that one myth is an actual reality and taking into account his physical condition, he looks back on other myths that he has heard in his life. Maybe there is some truth in them too. He doesn't really have that much to do in his new fortress since the place is run by robots and Vogel is only good to talk to if you want some to kiss up to you so he has a lot of time to think. And since he's dying he begins to reflect on his life. And as he's thinking he remembers someone perhaps a parent, perhaps a teacher, telling him the story of Rabbi Loew (Who was also known by an arcronym as Maharal (MaHaRaL - Morenu Ha-Rav Leib - meaning "Our teacher, Rabbi Loew")) and his Golem. He thinks "If Gargoyles are real, then maybe there is more to the story of the Golem than I previously though" and goes through to research what he can. And then he comes across this incantation that will allow him to move his body into the body of the Golem. And we know the rest of the story from there.


DEMONA AND REDEMPTION - I'm not clamoring for her to move away from the Dark Side. Even if she moved to the side of good, she'd still always be in that gray area. If it came down to having to do something questionable for the forces of good to win when Demona is allied with them, while the others would be talking, she would go and do it. What I think is that Demona has potential to move to the side of good because her goal is not an evil one. If you analyze what she wants, it's simply to see that no more Gargoyles are smashed into dust. (She has this idea of personal power somewhere in there but it's more of a secondary thing based probably on the idea that since she's lived the longest of all Gargoyles, she's probably best to rule.) That's not a bad goal, wanting to save your people. It's her methods and other ideas that are wrong.

Besides she HAS to be reformed. She is immortal. That means forever. Goliath and the others are short sighted. She can only be delayed, not stopped. Unless she is brought to be allied to the side of good, she will be a threat FOREVER. In every generation she will be there and she will be trying. So it's either kill her (and since Macbeth has found a new appreciation for life, this option doesn't look too good right now) or deal with her.

When we think of reformation, we think of a complete turnaround. That shouldn't be thought of in Demona's case. She will always have that slant towards a sort of bad girl method. The idea is only to have her give up the whole idea of killing humanity and ally herself with moderates like Goliath and Angela.
Airwalker
Friday, July 16, 1999 07:43:39 PM
IP: 112.new-york-21-22rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Asrial's fate> Although I would like to see her in the future but although I don't as well. We all know that she is still alive in 979 but she still has no mate. I aways thought that Arsial and Ajax would get toether in the future. Maybe they still well by the 980's. Hopefuly she is not one of the 994 massacured. If she did die before the massacure maybe she died in battle or if she did get a mate she died giving birth to her egg. It would be nice to see her sprit though in season 3 or 4 in the main Gargoyles Series.
Lawrence Stone - [craft_celtic@yahoo.com]
Chillicothe, Ohio, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 07:33:58 PM
IP: chil-ras6-1-cs-21.dial.bright.net

David G.> The prefix is "a-" or "an-" meaning "lack of" "without" Anonymous=no name Anemia=no blood, Agnostic=no knowledge and so on
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Friday, July 16, 1999 07:15:06 PM
IP: athe530-b027.otenet.gr

About Demona: The most important thing to remember in a comic book universe (which is how I veiw gargoyles) is that while you fiddle with the characters slightly to keep them fresh, you do not change the core principals of the character. Spider-Man for example from his first appearance has always lived by the code of "with great power comes great responsibility." Batman has always strove for justice and a desire to prevent the tragedies like the ones that befell him as a child. Their arch-enemies the Green Goblin and the Joker have stayed the same personality-wise for over 30 years, and they are still as enjoyable to read now as they were back then.
Also in any work of superhero fiction, the superhero is never the most interesting person in the story. It is the villians that make a good story, so good villians are to be cherished. Is Spider-Man as interesting as Kraven the Hunter, or Carnage?
Demona's ruthlessness, power and cruelty were made specifically to counter Goliath's character of noble strength. You'll even notice that Demona is an irrational nutcase while Goliath is a thoughtful philosopher. Demona was a necessary and vital keystone in the gargoyles universe due to that. Also simply because you know she could eventualy be redeemed you loathed her all the more whenever she proved herself more and more evil. In the culmination of Hunter's Moon she showed just how dangerous and evil she really was.
Ash
Friday, July 16, 1999 06:49:37 PM
IP: yktnsk01d01040122.sk.sympatico.ca

AIRWALKER - Actually, one needn't have been Jewish to become familiar with the Golem legend. I'm not Jewish, and yet I read about it in my boyhood in books on legendary beings (one of my favorite topics to read about then and now), alongside creatures from other mythologies.

Of course, it's also possible that it was Vogel who found out about the Golem and passed it on to Renard. But I agree with you that it's a good question for "Ask Greg".
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 16, 1999 06:42:24 PM
IP: 205-242-93-83.dialup-stl.primary.net

Pistoff > For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. It's also a Van Halen album :)
Steve Gooch - [Erebus642@aol.com]
Malverne, NY
Friday, July 16, 1999 06:19:43 PM
IP: abd8e16b.ipt.aol.com

To a certain person with an irrational phobia of particular words: Fine, whatever. I'm not losing any sleep over it. If you insist on being rude to me, if you don't have the balls to use my name, then just don't speak to me again.

Incidentally, I figure that words that can be said on TV without being censored can be said in here. Which brings me to an interesting bit of hypocricy: On television, it's acceptable to say "piss" in certain contexts, but not in others. To use an example George Carlin brought up once, it's okay to say "pissed off," but not "pissed on" (they bleep it). Similarly, you can prick your finger, but don't you dare finger your ... well, you get the picture. The point is, words are just words, none of them are good or bad. It all depends on who you ask. Somebody at one point just decided that certain words are "bad," even though some of these words used to be perfectly acceptable. If I remember correctly, the "F" word was an acronym, originally created from four other words (one beginning with F, the second beginning with U, and so on), which was created as a way to *avoid* using profanity. And now look what's been done to the word ... (If anybody has more information about this, feel free to pitch in, I'd like to make sure I have the details correct. :)

Airwalker: Oh, okay. Perhaps I got your comments confused with Todd's? You both use the same color, so I may have gotten mixed up. Anyway, I remember one of you talking about not liking the idea of the Wyvern Clan being brought back to life in the present.

Anyway, it's funny that you mentioned the idea of bringing more of the Wyvern clan to the present, because ... well, I guess I should put spoiler warnings on this, so ...

**GARGOYLES 2K SPOILERS AHEAD**

Okay, now that that's done ... I did indeed bring more of the clan back in the present. All of them, in fact. I deliberately avoided using the Phoenix Gate, and I also was careful to avoid having a Fay "wave his hand" as you phrased it, so I had to come up with another way. It was pretty convoluted, but at least it was an approach that hadn't been done in other fanfic series (as far as I know, anyway). And my version of Asrial has indeed been interacting with Lexington ... a *lot*, heheh, which earned her a rather saucy nickname. (To see how she and the others were brought into 1999, read "The Winds of Limbo." :) Also, in "Sit on my Interface," she and Lex have a little fun at Vogel's expense. I had a feeling that she would love living in the 20th/21st centuries, (which for one thing gives her a lot more stuff to tinker with in her experiments) and that's the way I played it out. She pretty much threw herself right into the middle of life in modern times.

Some people have told me that this is "too happy." But it was one of those ideas that just wouldn't stop pestering me, so I wrote it out. It gave me new characters to work with, and it let me throw them--and Goliath and the others, as well--into a weird situation and just see what happened. Really, that's why I write--I like to put characters in unsusual situations and see how they deal with it. And finding themselves going to sleep one morning and waking up the next morning to find themselves 1,000 years in the future is rather odd, heh. Besides, as Sam Raimi once said, "I like to create characters that people can care about--and then punish them." To me, letting a character be killed cuts down on the potential storylines I could've used, so I try not to do it unless it's absolutely necessary. On the other hand, refusing to let a character die also eliminates potential plots. So I guess it's a bit of a balancing act. If the plot requires a certain character's death, then I grit my teeth and just do it.

I certainly hope Asrial didn't blow herself up, or anything like that. But at least I know that she's alive and well in my series.

James: Oh, lighten up! "Damn" is hardly a word that will bring the sky crashing down on us all. As a matter of fact, it's used in the Bible a few times.

Aaron: Oooohhhhhh, man, I wish I could see that Ninja Abe picture! And I remember watching "The Master" when I was a kid. Boy, that show was a hoot! :)

Warpmind: Ahh, okay. Heh, consider yourself lucky, then. The twisted world of pizza delivery is something I would hesitate to inflict on my worst enemies. ;)

David G: Oh, you've delivered pizzas, too? You have my most sincere condolences. ;)

Taleweaver: Your "cynical and jaded" comment about Demona's popularity (redhead with a body that won't quit) is probably pretty much on target. Just speaking for myself, from a rather prurient perspective, Demona was the first animated-series character I ever wanted to have sex with. :) On the serious side, she's also an interesting, multifaceted character. We've seen her on both sides of the fence, we've seen her vulnerable side, and we've seen her begin to hope for a better existence only to have those hopes stomped flat. Stuff like that really engages people's emotions, and there's probably a tendency to wish that Demona could enjoy life and live in peace, if only for a little while.

Steve: Richard Dick, eh? Back when I used to deliver newspapers at 4 every morning, one of the other carriers had a customer named Dick Ring. I swear, I am not making that up. I checked the guy's subscriber list, and there it was. Now there's a guy who probably got beat up a lot in school ... :P
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Friday, July 16, 1999 06:17:05 PM
IP: wire-16.koalas.com

James > I'm not trying to make you do anything, I'm merely saying that in a public forum like this there are bound to be people that use language that others consider harsh. I'm sorry if I came off as offending you, as this was not my intention. But to be honest, Exin has as much right to say "damn" as you have to tell him to stop. If you have a problem with someone else's language, by all means bring it to their attention, but don't expect them to change their ways.

And it's "Gooch," thanks.
Steve Gooch - [Erebus642@aol.com]
Malverne, NY
Friday, July 16, 1999 05:20:11 PM
IP: abd8e16b.ipt.aol.com

About Demona---I think it's for many reasons--the two main ones--Goliath loved her once, and we have seen her when she is vulnerable.
Jenna
Friday, July 16, 1999 05:10:23 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Steve Gruoch> I don't have to and you can't make me. Anyone notice that during 971 there's a chief lieutant ) according the three priests in that last Dark Ages tale) called 'de Maduc'. (chuckles) He is a Royal Advisor during MacBeth's reign. I hope no one sees this as a spoiler but he's really Madoc in disguise.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 05:05:48 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Taleweaver> I dunno. Personally, I liked the old Demona, the one who kicked @$$ and didn't bother taking names because they were all worthless humans anyway.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 04:55:55 PM
IP: ppp-89.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Hey all,

(Prays that this works when he hits submit..."

Aha! It worked! I was also having trouble getting in here last night, and once I did, it wouldn't let me post. Plus, I couldn't get into any of the other wyvernweb-hosted sites. Server problems? (Btw, Wilek, come up with a nice D.C. death for me on this one, I'm not in the mood and I'm at my best with Microsoft employees. Something with a chipper-shredder or a combine, please.)

Exin > Please cease with the "RP-only" posts, okay? It's against the CR rules.

James > The room's not going to be shut down because of the word "damn," though I'm sorry it offends you. You just have to accept the fact that not everybody is as sensitive when it comes to swearing.

Paul > I agree with Jenniren on this one, it's rude to refer to Pistoff or anyone else with "person whose name I won't say." I can see that if he chose a really raunchy, XXX-rated moniker, but if you feel strongly about it, call him "Mr. P" or "P-man" or something. Or imagine that he's Russian, like "Sergei Pistov" or something ;)

Really, though, I know a guy whose name is - get ready for this one - Richard Dick. Scout's honor. What do you CALL someone like that? Dick? Mr. Dick? Dick Dick? Double-Dick? :)

Xanthanar's episode survey:

Gargoyles Season One: Captive Pursuit
Gargoyles Season Two: Something Old, Something New (Though I'm leaving room for this week's season-ender)

And that's it. I haven't read enough of the other series' to offer judgement fairly.

Later all

==Quick, Duodecimus! - work out a VII.Viscount on MCLXXXIX==
Steve Gooch - [Erebus642@aol.com]
Malverne, NY
Friday, July 16, 1999 04:51:53 PM
IP: abd8e16b.ipt.aol.com

Taleweaver!!! Are you off of your vacation? How was New Mex?
Hope you had a good time! :)
Jenna - [the_Salome@hotmail.com]
Friday, July 16, 1999 04:35:17 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Howdy all,
Religion> Agnostic roughly translated means 'I don't know'. I myself fall into agnostic with an attitude. I have a had respect for truth which isn't religions primary goal. Religions get to truth, but that's after pleasing the masses and inparting their beliefs. As to the question of why I (I can't speak for any atheist or agnostic other than myself) don't take the screw they neighbor response. Unfortunately my parents instill me with a sense of right and wrong and a morality that keeps getting the way. Sometimes I do look around and get frustrated. If i had less scrupples and more ruthlessness, I could be running the joint. That and my dragon nature which keeps showing me stuff that's more interesting than material gain and feel good stimulus.

To sort of add a spin to the whole Demona-villian/antagonist discussion. Let me ask this question. Why do you feel Demona is worth redemption. We have a whole host of bad guys. Some who've done worst than Demona, like Madoc and get a mace in the face. Others like Coldsteel who've done far less. Yet Demona is the one most people are clamoring for to move away from the Dark Side. Why? Is it just be cause she has a daughter. Does parentage make one worth? Is it age? Immortality? (And this comes from my cynical and jaded side) Is it the fact the she's a red head with a body that doesn't quit.

Just stirring up the Kool-Aid.
Taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Friday, July 16, 1999 04:04:52 PM
IP: dialup-209.245.69.58.losangeles1.level3.net

David G> That was Runaways. It was TGC. It stank, bad.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 03:56:18 PM
IP: ppp-56.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

David G: I think that particular episode was in TGC, and not... well, you know ;) Anyway, I don't remember the title, but there's a clip from it in the S8 archive, I think.

Must... leave... CR... must... obey... parental... orders... must... find... food... so... long... must... get... haircut...

Catch ya later, aye?
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Friday, July 16, 1999 03:37:33 PM
IP: mp-217-240-32.daxnet.no

(blames all that curse for the horrors of Earth. They are the ones that will bring Methos, Cronos, Sithas, and Caspian back from the dead and if you don't know whose these four horse riding four are then be glad) ^_--
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 03:32:44 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

I just read "Perspectives". I'm sorry I keep coming into the comment room just say what stories I have read but Robbie insisted many months ago if I remember correctly :P. Click link for a poem I wrote.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 03:30:08 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Last night, after trying to get into the condemned- to- the- pits- of- the- negative- aspect- of- the- Christian- afterlife comment room for three hours, I wrote this really interesting, fairly long post, where I had responses to everything important.

I couldn't get the Submit command to work.

This afternoon, I feel like I've been put through a dough roller on the Thin Crust setting. (I too have worked in the pizza business) Anyway, here's some comments:

Skippy's question> There are several possiblilites. Gargoyles who were native american would probably have stayed out of the war, as the Indians mostly did. They probably would have later come to regret that decision, as the Indians mostly did. Colonist Gargoyles would be harder to predict. Since England wiped out its Gargoyle population, the most likely (not by much) is that they would support the Colonists, who were also mostly persicuted by the English.

Celtic Christianity> This is an interesting subject. The short version is that the missionaries who made it to Ireland, instead of trying to stomp out the old forms of worship, allowed the natives to adapt them. Most of the old Celtic gods became Irish saints, and most of the old holy places became sites for Christian shrines and churches. The dogma and beliefs were less repressive than Roman Catholicism, too, until the Catholic church once again had enough influence and manpower to reach Ireland. Then there was some kind of deal struck where the Irish church was brought more into line. Even so, Irish catholics are a bit different than thier bretheren.

Agnostic> The word is Greek in origin, if I remember correctly. Gnosis, the root word, means something like "Knowledge," but the connotation is deeper than that. "Secrets" or "Deep Truth" might be closer. The "Ag" prefix is a negator. Simply put, Agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible to know whether there is a God or not.

Trivia Question> There's a Gargoyles episode where Brooklyn gets mad at Goliath and leaves the Castle. He falls in with this group of street kids. Does anybody remember the title of that episode and/or the names of the kids? I'm thinking of using them as characters in a fanfic, if I ever finish the last few pages of the one I'm writing.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 03:11:54 PM
IP: pppa11-resalefortworth2-2r1005.saturn.bbn.com

*just seen that James was here*

James>Okay ..but you're not happy... i cannot se it ,you're bad to me ,... but try to to the story.. :):

James>Accept that i have different interests than you ,and alot people curses here ..so why do you blame me here?

Okay ,that was all...

...*gone*
Exin
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:45:36 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

So ,thats all for this day...but i will continue tomorrow!!

Promised! ;):

...exin
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:42:18 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

--continues--

*Another Doorkeeper ,not so in the mood to laugh ,opens the door*

2nd Doorkeeper:Good luck!

*the giant door comes down as a bridge ,Exin walks into the Castle*
Exin:*Shouts* Solitare!

Solitare:*looks out of a window in one of the towers*Exin?

Exin:*kneels down under the tower (Very high!! ;):*Solitare! ..do you want to come with me???

Solitare:Yes ,but watch out for the monster Xeira! She's a monster and lurks inside the tower!

Exin:No problem for me!


---to be continued---
exin
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:40:22 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Okay I finished "Pilgrimage"
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:29:14 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

-okay ,saved to disk ,prepared to continue! :):

..

..*exin goes sadly home to his mommy ,and comes back in the next morning ,rings again on the doorbell*

Doorkeeper:*opens the small window at the other end again and shouts:* Who Is It in this Cruel Morning!?!? *rubs eyes and notices that it's exin again*

Doorkeeper:Exin! I told you that you have to go home!!! ...

Exin:i went home ,now i'm back!

Doorkeeper:Are you so stupid? Be a man first to see her!

Exin:B.but i am a man!

Doorkeeper:*falls out of the window of laughing*

Exin:*watches the doorkeeper falling down the wall into the lake and shouts behind:*Hey! I ment that serious!

--to be continued--
Exin
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:23:01 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Aaron> I am one the few (hopefully not only) sane one(s) here. I been coming a full year and everyone said I wouldn't keep my sanity a month. I hope to never lose it. Good day to you.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:13:58 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

...*comes back in ,thinking* Do ya know how often i tried to get in the chatroom? ...I could make very funny ,short fanfic's about it!!! :): *grins* ...Just imagine that the room is in a big castle with a lake around it...

Exin ,small as a ant ,presses the ring on the other end of the lake in front of the castle front-door...

...so exin rings the bell... ,one ,two ..three times ,then someone at the other end in the wall ,opens a small window ,he shoutet:Who Is It???

Exin:Exin!!! *laughs as i write IRL*

Doorkeeper:Exin who??? *the doorkeeper thinks* Exin! ,Go home to you mommy!!! *the doorkeeper laughs and closes the window*

Exin:*rings again*

Doorkeeper:*opens the small window again* Exin! Go Home! Nobody wants you here!!! *laughs again*

Exin:But i want to see Maid Solitare!

Doorkeeper:Come back when you're a MAN!! hahahahaha! *the doorkeeper closes the window laughing hardly*

...to be continued!...
Exin
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:11:29 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

I don't Ironwulf. I don't like cursing (rasberries then goes back to the Dark Ages story I was reading) Lousy homo sapions
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:11:10 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Aris><<You know, when people here complain that this room is slow, I'd like to ask them what would that make S8? Dead?>> Sorta. Hence the periodic pleading posts in here for someone to visit it. Besides, S8 just doesn't have the pleasant, the-loonies-are-running-the-asylum atmosphere that this place does.

Later


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:10:13 PM
IP: ppp-56.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Sure I'm a lamer and I don't care. I am happy Exin. I certainly am never sad. Aris you really gotta understand most people DO see the four letter aqueduct word as cursing. I am 1/4 in the way into "Pilgrimage" and it reminded of something I should have sound said here after reading "Wanderer": Dudes and dudettes I regret to inform all that the tale of Beowulf doesn't get written till 1100 AD which is long after 971 AD thefore it couldn't have existed yet.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:10:10 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Children be nice:) I agree with Aris on the subject of damn the room has a pg 13 rating and well look what has been said on TV especialy on fox! so I don't think the room will be shut down.
well lunch is over later
Ironwolf
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:05:59 PM
IP: host-216-78-82-36.cha.bellsouth.net

Okay, replies to questions first, in sequence as they appeared.

Pistoff: No, I've delivered pizzas. First, I don't have a driver's license (They cost yer shirt and socks over here, and then you gotta prove you actually *learned* something from all this training afterwards, lotsa people gotta try several years in succession due to the ridiculously high demands), second, well... there'd probably be a lot of "boxes falling off the back", if you get my drift. Third, there's never been much of a market in Norway for pizza deliveries. Not that I know of, anyway.

JEB: Too bad I never saw "Conan the Librarian", I just knew *of* that particular parody, I'm not sure of what exactly happened. (Side note about my job: there's a couple of jerks trying to make me snap by coming into the library and disturbing the peace... they calmed down after I hung up a sign by the door: "WARNING: The librarian present knows more about causing severe, painful injuries than about mending them. Please be quiet, this is, after all, a Library.")

Now to other subjects:

Spike: Awwwww, cute pic :) Got more?

Coyote: Hope your grandmother pulls through... and that she'll be her old self afterwards.

Christine: Dakota's real name? Maybe Henrietta? ;) Sure would fit into the family. *Thinks about it for a moment.* Hang on, Henrietta Jones? Ugh, could be better. *Thinks a bit more* Uh... Henrietta Vandermere? *Ouuuuch*.

Uh, before I insult anyone, I should leave.

Oh, just saw STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE yestereve. Fun. (So that's what happened to Voyager 6) And on Sunday, it's Wrath of Khan. And the next, and the next, etc. Hope we get Insurrection, too, before they stop showing the movies ;)

Well, it's gonna be a darn lotta fun seeing the C64 OS competing with Windows '98 (As if Windows could ever surpass C64 in popularity). Then again, we live on a planet populated by more than six billion idiots, no offense, somebody *up there* has an insanely sick sense of humor, no offense (Heck, I sort of work for the Big Guy myself... he's got to learn to take a joke someday), who knows, maybe there's a few strange people out there who actually like Windows.

Gotta run, my *mother* wants to use the PC. *sigh* See you guys later.

Oh, and while I remember:

*NO SMOKING IN THE ARMORY*
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Friday, July 16, 1999 02:02:21 PM
IP: mp-217-227-103.daxnet.no

**Glimmer enters the room, removes a candle from Starsinger's big box and lights it with the flamethrower.**

A moment of reflection for our absent clanmate and a moment of prayer for those with suffering relatives.




TARZAN SPOILERS
A good movie but I was expecting a little bit more. I thought Tarzan should have returned to London and tried to live in a human city before concluding that where he belonged was with his 'family' in the jungle.
The soundtrack is fantastic. I also enjoyed the way young Tarzan and the juvenile critters were portrayed. Anyone who has spent enough time around kids knows the feeling of dread that comes with the line, "We did't do it!"
The begining was powerful. The visual effects were stunning. The ending was well done. It just seemed that it was lacking a little something in the middle. Or maybe I shouldn't keep expecting Disney to live up to the standards they created for themselves with Gargoyles. :)
END SPOILERS

Jeeze. I remember why I don't go to the movies that often. It's the buses. Boulder City has one bus that goes in a loop around BC then connects with all the buses in Henderson(closest theater). I waited out in the scorching sun for the hourly bus. It didn't show on time. Since public transportation has never been accused of punctuality I decided to wait. A woman struck up a conversation about the weather reminding everyone that it was supposed to rain later. She gets on a bus and five minutes later a single cloud floats overhead and opens up. After waiting for a full hour I dragged my seven year old niece up a block and across a very dangerous intersection and made my way to the payphone. I called my brother and the conversation went like this:
Me: "Hey, I need a lift."
Him(sounding smug): "I've been waiting for you to call."
Me: "Let me guess, the bus is broken down."
Him(still sounding smug): "Guess where?"
Me(not even having to pause to think about the worse possible place): "Right in front of 7-11."
Him: "Yep."
Me: "Did it overheat?"
Him: "No. I think there was something wrong with the electical system. They had all of the inside panels off looking at the wires."
Me: "Ducky. Now get down here and pick us up."

The movie ended at 2:15. We got home at 4:00. It's only a fifteen minute drive from my house to the theater. *Sigh*

I'm painting my section of the house this weekend. I'll watch for the little green men. :)

Christine> Hope your party is a blast.

Gargs on ice> Uhh.. hate to bring this up again, but I'm slightly obsessed about it since I had an opportunity to go but didn't scince I didn't realize it had anything to do with gargs. I found the book on it. 1995- Walt Disney's World On Ice. Produced by Kenneth Feld. Our boys appeared in Act 2, scene 9; A Night On Bald Mountain. Right before the finale. Now I have to get the scanner working for people that want to see the hilarious costumes. :)

Religion or lack of> I avoid this topic as much as possible.

Dang, I have to get the little buggers ready to go to the pool. I'll lurk for the rest of the day, then be back on Monday. But before I go...

Kitainia> <<Railway Killer:Glad he's been caught. Now if he can just get a a lawyer who's a real dumbass...>> Just as long as it's not Johnie Cochran. The last thing America needs is another media fiasco that ends with a murderer walking free. Oooh. Sorry. I'll go sit in the corner now.

**Glimmer is gone**
Glimmer
Boulder City
Friday, July 16, 1999 01:55:39 PM
IP: 217.gardena-05rs.ca-las-vegas-05rs.nv.dial-access.att.net

Exin ,master of the coders ,back for the future! Back on ...C64! With the First web-browser ever made on a 8-bit computer!! :): ...dont take this as spam ,i just have alot ideas to put into this comment room! :):

..bye then!
Exin
Friday, July 16, 1999 01:51:08 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

oopsy ,a double post! *laughs again*

Hi Katakis!

*laughs harder* Sorry for misspelling your name.. :):
Exin
Friday, July 16, 1999 01:47:48 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

James>Calm down ,lamer. be happy ,just be happy ,i cannot understand why you're never happy...

When you hate me so much ,why dont you send it per Email or say it DIRECT in my face!???

..*shrugs* Stupid ignorants... He should learn to enjoy his life...

...i enjoy! ,i have friends who know me better than ...hhmmm...*shrugs again* who not understand me..*laughs* :):
Exin
Friday, July 16, 1999 01:46:26 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

James>Calm down ,lamer. be happy ,just be happy ,i cannot understand why you're never happy...

When you hate me so much ,why dont you send it per Email or say it DIRECT in my face!???

..*shrugs* Stupid ignorants... He should learn to enjoy his life...

...i enjoy! ,i have friends who know me better than ...hhmmm...*shrugs again* who not understand me..*laughs* :):
Exin
Friday, July 16, 1999 01:46:16 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

You know, when people here complain that this room is slow, I'd like to ask them what would that make S8? Dead?

James Birdsong> "Damn" is not a swearword where I'm concerned, and it's certainly not enough to make the room go down.

And by the way in your site, why the hell did you have "D" "U" "R" "2" "B" stand for "the" "you" "are" "two" "be" and so on? Sorry, but that's very tiresome to read. I stopped reading the page after I saw that.
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Friday, July 16, 1999 01:44:08 PM
IP: athe530-e067.otenet.gr

Dang, still slow. Okay, here goes. How to defend yourself against DC: Release the sixteen ton weight.

Aaron pushes a button on the wall. Splat!

Lame, I know, but I'm beginning to think we've used all the really good ones.

Airwalker><<After all if we are already having her saved, then why not go back and find some way for more of the Wyvern clan to survive?>> I'm guessing you haven't read Pistoff's The Winds of Limbo.

Bad news: My boss came back from his vacation. Now we have to look busy again.

Got something amusing in change yesterday: Ninja Abe Lincoln. Somebody drew a ninja bodysuit over the portrait on a five dollar bill. Abe looks kinda like Lee Van Cleef in Master Ninja.

Is anybody else having this happen? In the fic archive, the author list is repeating most of the names three times.

Later.

Aaron wanders off, singing Jimmy Buffet's "A Pirate Looks at 40"


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 01:38:12 PM
IP: ppp-56.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

(feels like beating up Exin) Don't any of you understand the comment room will be shut down if people keep cursing! Man I hate people. Stop trying to ruin it for everyone (mumbles) Anyyyhow I just finished "News from the South" of the Dark Ages series
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 16, 1999 01:37:30 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Damn! Nobody answers?

Newz>I'm now one of two who will code a browser for the old C64!!! Cool! :):

My job in it:Coding transfr protocols ,and Http translation.

...please answer! :):
Exin
Friday, July 16, 1999 12:47:39 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Starsinger > yep, housewarming's tomorrow, the in-laws arrived last night, and believe it or not, things are actually almost in order!

Doug > name Dakota's dad what? <g> I was always kind of under the impression that he was Henry Jo