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Wilek: Yup. :) Carlin had all kinds of ideas. Such as...boiling criminals in oil--or, occasionally, dipping one in egg batter and french-frying him, just for a goof. :) He also suggested burning people at the stake on Sunday mornings. "The Praise Jesus, Evangelical, Send us an Offering, Human Bonfire," or something like that....

Starsinger: Yeah, I've noticed a similar problem in schools. When a teacher does something like that, he usually just gets transferred. One such teacher used to be on the paper route I used to do at 4 every morning, and a year or two ago one of the counselors at the local community college was convicted of molesting a kid. It's a sad, sick world we live in....

And before anybody wants go go off on me about this, let me say that I never said "all" or "most" teachers do this. I just said that the problem exists.

Zath: Actually, that was part of the same "Pay Per View Executions" bit in a show he did a couple of years ago. One of his best ideas: Dip a guy in brown gravy and lock him in a small room with a wolverine that's high on angel dust. :)

Stephen: About why the bodies were cremated so quickly--I imagine that they were a real mess after an impact like that. After the autopsies were done, the bodies were probably cremated because nobody would want to look at mangled corpses in coffins. And the families probably wanted to get it over with as soon as possible to lessen the chances of paparazzi sneaking in and turning the whole thing into more of a circus than it already was....
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 09:18:36 PM
IP: wire-12.koalas.com

Hey all,

David G. > Interesting tibit about the one page per minute translation. It makes sense, but there's the fact that most of a 200-300 page novel is devoted to descriptions rather than dialogue. Where it might take an author two or three paragraphs to describe the contents of a room or the look of a character, a film translation will take mere seconds as the audience gets to take it all in visually and audially instead of imagining it through the author's words.

A screenwriter does have to cut out a lot of material (one of the reasons I do NOT want to see George Lucas make a trilogy out of Timothy Zahn's books; they're just too long to edit fairly), but a good deal of that can go back in as costume and set designers, crew, and the director translate the descriptive text - the flesh and blood, if you will - of the novel into on-screen format.

But I completely agree with you; novels and movies are two completely separate mediums, and to compare them is really unfair as each is capable of totally different things. (Except, of course, when somebody does something just plain STUPID like screw up a main character's name like the novelization of Face/Off.)

Wilek > Nice D.C. death. Thanks. Oh, and I have the Goochy beanie baby. Weird lookin jellyfish, that.

==Hollywood knows as much about weapons as my dog. --Eliot Kaagan==
Steve Gooch - [Erebus642@aol.com]
Malverne, NY
Sunday, July 25, 1999 09:13:21 PM
IP: 98cc7f7e.ipt.aol.com

Stephen> comments about the quickness of the JFK funeral:
Honestly, the turnaround time from moment of death to funeral is actually pretty quick (mainly because it's not a good idea to have bodies lying about that long...)

In recent memory, I've been to two funerals, both of which were less than a week after the death. My grandmother's funeral was only four days after her death, so the timing on JFK Jr.'s is not that suprising to me.
Skippy the Klingon - [shakedwn@ultravision.net]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 08:59:46 PM
IP: 207.22.234.116

Hello everyone. I'm not going to write much cause my parents and I are having some problems...

Zath> I always go for the guys with the spikey black hair and long noses! And the accents...(drool)...

Doug> Totally agree! Raven sucks!
SOROW
Sunday, July 25, 1999 07:37:25 PM
IP: usr12-dialup334.mix1.irving.cw.net

**RP HERE**

Brendan strides out of the engine room carrying a heavy blaster rifle and muttering under his breath. "What's your problem?" Pete asks as he stands beside them. "That little egotistical growth-stunted moron told me to come out here," Brendan sighs. "You outta go back and give him what for!" Berg suggests. "He can't order you around like that." "For once our friend is right," Sharon says, her voice sounding as though it's a miracle. "Go back there and tell him who's boss." "No thanks," Brendan sighs. "I'm not in the mood for that right now." "Fine," Pete rolls his eyes. "Guess you never will be. Now here comes the enemy. Brendan, you guard the rear." (For a continuation of this scene, see Wilek's last post.)

The display changes to elsewhere in the Devastator, where the Ravens are walking down yet another empty corridor. "Yo, bad guys!" Jammer yells. "Come out and play! We're ready for you!" "Uh, Jim, don't we want to conserve our ammo and spells a little?" Shauna points out. "Duh," Daria agrees. "Uh, right," Jammer grins. "Sorry." Doug and Kit chuckle to each other, following behind down the featureless passageway. Explosions echo from outside as Doug turns to make a post.

**PAUSE RP**

Hello everyone. I decided to post a little early, get it out of the way. Hope no one minds the room being a little bigger. Okay, on with the post.

Fanfic Progress: Started Eruption this morning, hope it comes out well. In case anyone's wondering, the reason for the title is that the story starts off with an erupting volcano. Emotions also erupt in various ways after the event. It should be good.

Kaioto: Sorry you had a terrible birthday. I bet in nine days it will all be made worth it, though. <grin> Hope your sister feels better soon.

Silver Wood: You're right, they must not be very smart. :) Welcome to the CR.

Steve: Kit and I did a review of Arlington Road. We agree with you, it was a good and terribly realistic and frightening film.

Inspector Gadget: As has already been said in here, it was pretty entertaining. More so than I expected it to be after the lackluster reviews. :) I'm looking forward to the other two unnecessary but good-looking live-action cartoon films coming out this year- Dudley Do-Right and Bullwinkle (saw the trailer for DDR before Gadget, that film looks like it'll be hilarious. As for Bullwinkle, it'll have Jason Alexander and Robert de Niro in bad guy roles perfect for them so it'll be good even with a possibly bad plot. :).

Wilek: Welcome back! $ Go ahead and handle the TGGAPP trio if you want, you seem to have their characters right so far. I don't watch their show, but know from commercials and TV guide that Pete is a smart-ass cynic, Berg an egotistical and slightly dumb loser, and Sharon a stuck-up whiny ditz who hates them both. All very uninteresting and unentertaining people. Beats me why ABC ever gave them their own show. <shrugs> Good luck taking them out. (Oh, and if you want to add a little in-joke comedy, I suggest having Berg's last words be a whiny "Sharon, I love you!" Sharon screams "What?" and then they die.) $

Robby: Sounds like you have a good contest set up. May the best people win. :)

Airwalker: Nice paragraph about predestination and free will both being part of time's highway. I completely agree with it (except that I see time as a river instead of a highway for sentimental reasons).

Zath: I agree with you, Methos should have gotten the spinoff. He is way more of an interesting character. As for Amanda, I liked her myself, but the way she is now she looks awful. That's the main reason I don't watch Highlander- the Raven in addition to its boring and cliched plots.

Paul: Thanks for the heads-up about Azado. In answer to your questions, I was a little bothered when I heard Ghaelon's voice in the Ruins (I thought it had to be someone who sounded like him). Then when he appeared, I nearly jumped up and screamed "Hey pal, you have the right to remain dead!" or some such pronouncement. <shakes head> It's good to see the guy back, but was a little surprising at first. :) As for Lucia, I don't care for her so far. Mostly because she's pretty stuck-up and not a real member of the party (she doesn't gain levels but still gets exp, you can't access her inventory, she's not that useful in battle, you can't control her, and still she has to take up space). But she is pretty and does have a few other good qualities (like her character premise). Maybe Lucia will become more standable and interesting later in the game.

Fall TV Shows: I don't like most of the new programming they're doing, but there are two new shows that look interesting (Angel and CBS's Now and Again) and one that might have possibilities (Fox's Harsh Realm). And Simpsons, X-Files, Buffy, and Martial Law are all coming back with new episodes. So some shows this fall should be bearable. I just wish they hadn't dumped Vengeance Unlimited, Invasion America, and Brimstone. <sighs>

That's all. See you again tonight after the...oh wait, we're not gonna get a new episode. See everyone again tonight anyway. Bye!

**RESUME RP**

The Ravens keep going, eventually reaching the door to the large room that they think is the control center. "Get ready!" Doug shouts, and they bust it down and charge in, stopping as they find the room full of nothing but empty space and silent machines. "This is the ship's central Borg drone factory," Keith says after looking at the equipment. "Must be down due to the engine failure. We got the wrong room." "Rats," Doug sighs. "Okay, let's damage these machines beyond repair and then go to the next largest room in the Devastator. That should be the control room." The others nod, then raise their weapons and go to work smashing the drone replicator machines.

Meanwhile in the engine room, an elevator opens to admit Clive and Bill hauling several hundred gallon-size bottles of water. "You asked for some Ozarka?" Clive asks, wheeling his trolley out with Bill following behind. "That is correct," Stewie nods. "Put it over by the radiator." The two drivers nod and set their water down by the Devastator's gigantic mass of engine-cooling equipment. "Alright, children," Stewie tells the Rug Rats. "Open the main valve and dump that water in." "Uh," Tommy asks confusedly, "are you sure we can lift all this?" "No excuses, brats!" Stewie snaps. "Get to work!" "Now hold on," Clive interjects suddenly. "You can't put our water in there!" "Oh?" Stewie asks, turning to face them. "Why not?" "Ozarka isn't just any old water!" Bill declares. "It's the natural one!" "Yeah," Clive agrees. "Putting it in a radiator, even the radiator we're gonna use to conquer the world, that would be like using the Mona Lisa for carbon paper, man!" "Shut up, water weenies!" Stewie yells, then transforms his hands into shrapnel-firing machine guns and takes out both Ozarka drivers as they continue to protest. "Uh, boss," Chuckie stammers, "you just killed two of our men!" "They were useless!" Stewie declares. "It doesn't matter. Now get that water into the radiator before I shoot you as well!" The Rug Rats nod and begin to comply.

**END THIS BIT OF RP**
Doug - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 03:22:23 PM
IP: pool-207-205-237-72.dlls.grid.net

VOTE FOR THE FANDOM TOP FIVE!

Books to movies- Well, there's been one or two really, really close adaptations from book to movie, the best I can think of being Dragonheart, and the Neverending Story 1. Dragonheart hits almost the entire book except a couple of paragraphs, and Neverending story faithfully adapted almost scene for scene the first third of the book. THey knew they couldn't do the whole book in one movie, so they didn't try. Good for them. Then the sequals both took like ONE lousy chapter and tried to expand it into a movie upon itself... Oh well...

But since book to movie translations are usually bad, I am sooo dreading the release of Ender's game... Specially since an 8 year book is gonna be compressed into less than a year to allow for that stupid kid who played Anakin... (Dangit, why couldn't it have been done when Elisha Wood was the proper age? He's a child actor who was able to act! Arrg!)

Wilek- That Ascii art just looks like Demona to me... A big eyed, happy Demona, but Demona...

Invasion America fans- I just discovered today that there's at least one book based on the series. It covers the first five or so episodes. Now the question is, are there books that cover what happened after the series?
Robby - [MrNoying@aol.com]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 02:44:26 PM
IP: spider-ta063.proxy.aol.com

Thanks, Airwalker. That was driving me crazy.

I'll write your 'thank you' in right now.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Sunday, July 25, 1999 02:37:24 PM
IP: pppb23-resalefortworth2-2r1005.saturn.bbn.com

DAVID G - Renard's robots were called Cy-bots.
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, July 25, 1999 02:25:46 PM
IP: 203.new-york-30-35rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

OK, I'm supposed to be writing Hot Lead and Coldsteel, but I'm taking a break. Here's a few little random bits:
Utopia vs Eutopia> Like I said before, Sir Thomas More was the first person to name a fictional country Utopia, and he did it sort of as a pun. The book Utopia is written as a travelers' account of his stay in the fictional country 'Utopia' which would be physically located somewhere around New Mexico, if memory serves. By calling it Utopia (no-place) he was signaling his readers that the story was made up.

Book vs. Movie> Just a little bit of comparison for you guys. A screenplay in Master Scene format (which is the standard) runs about one page per minute of screen time. Thus, a 2 hour movie is about 120 pages long. A novel can run anywhere from 200 to 300 or even more pages. A screenwriter trying to adapt a novel to a screenplay has to cut out at least half the material. Beyond that, writers can do things that cinematographers can only dream of. When you're comparing a book to a movie, try to keep those things in mind. The mediums are really so different that it's hard to compair them fairly.

That said, I usually enjoy the book better than the movie, except in cases where the book was adapted from the screenplay. Lost World is a special case. Crichton wrote it pretty much to turn into a movie. He did it for the money, in other words. I really didn't like either very much.

Now, something almost Gargoyles related. When Renyard built Sky Fortress II, he ran the whole thing with robots, but they weren't just called 'robots.' They were called something like 'Autodrones.' Does anybody remember off hand what they were called? I'll give a note of thanks in the introduction to Hot Lead and Coldsteel to the first person to give me the answer.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Sunday, July 25, 1999 02:13:53 PM
IP: pppa3-resalefortworth1-1r1035.saturn.bbn.com

Hey all,

Tim > You think *you're* full of useless information? How's this one: LT. Huxley's first name was Lenina, which is also the first name of the main character of Brave New World.

Patrick Toman > I'll agree conditionally that books are better than the movies made from them. the condition s that you read the book first. Case in point: As soon as "The Lost World" (the book) was released, everybody I know dove to read it. I didn't, and waited until I saw the movie that everyone knew was coming. I *liked* the movie for what it was - a movie adaptation of a novel. I read the book and *liked* that too, for what it was - a novel. Everyone I know now challenges my assertion that the movie wasn't a piece of crap, becauase none of them waited to read the book, and by doing so they sat through the whole movie comparing it to the book and missed out on a good deal of entertainment.

==I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them their jobs. -- Samuel Goldwyn==
Steve Gooch - [Erebus642@aol.com]
Malverne, NY
Sunday, July 25, 1999 01:45:04 PM
IP: 98cacffe.ipt.aol.com

Re: A HANDMAID'S TALE - Yep, very disturbing movie. Just from the fact it disolves down to a pseudo-cult, brainwashing women to believe they are "blessed" to give birth to children that they'll never see again, except in the arms of a sterile woman that claims to be the child's mother. About as disturbing as "The Stepford Wives"...

JFK, JR. - I'm just glad they found the bodies, but I kind of wonder, was it really pilot error that made them crash? And why did they creamate them so quickly? Ugh, I shouldn't chanell Matt Bluestone too much!

Not much to say on TGS, since we're in limbo, working on new stories... we'll get them done soon! :)

And, with that...

***** BEGIN RP *****

[Scene opens on a location inside the Devestator, as a troop of Borg drones (regular ones this time) troops towards a point to stop the invading Ravens... when suddenly, a maelstrome of energy erupts into their midst, sending several of them to the scrapheap!]

As the Borg-cell leader tries to recover from the sudden disruption of space, a line of .50 caliber slugs stitches across his torso, dropping him to the deck, inactive.

From his position astride Sara Jane, Big Jake drops another Borg with his Desert Eagle, before having to switch magazines. Doing so, he leaves his back open to another Borg, who is about to launch assimilation tentacles at the biker. But, the drone suddenly jerks back as what appears to be a large icicle stabbing out from its chest appears. Soon, several others erupt out from a dozen other places, making the cyborg look like a odd-looking porcupine.

Weapon reloaded, Jake turns around, just in time to see the pincushioned Borg be split in two by Jess's energy blade.

"Thanks, Jess!" Drawing his other pistol, Jake hammers two more drones into inactive components.

"Let's get moving, you lug!" Jess says, climbing on the hoverbike to sit facing backwards. "We have to find the command center! That's where Thailog should be!"

Jake growls darkly, "Right. Hang on!" Holstering one of his sidearms, he grabs Sara Jane by the controls, gunning the throttle...

[Scene closes as the two speed off down the corridor, headed for the superstructure of the World Devestator.]

***** END RP, FOR NOW *****

Maintain and Check Six!
Stephen "Coldstone" Sobotka, Jr. - [scififangargoyle@yahoo.com]
Spokane, WA, USA
Sunday, July 25, 1999 01:39:45 PM
IP: m27.ieway.com

<----- "I talk to myself mainly because I like dealing with a better class of people."





Patrick Toman: <<"Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley >> Here's an ironic peicew of info; In the movie "DEMOLITION MAN," the name of a female police officer in the utopian city of San Angeles is Lt. Huxley.

See? I'm not dumb. I just got my head full of useless information.

Demona, punishment, and executions: This subject is of some interest to me because my mom was on the the criminal jury for "Walking Wiley" Otey, who was sentenced to the electric chair in Nebraska. My dad also knew a guy a guy in college who's on death row now.

The controversy over capital punishment often brings up the Justice vs. Vengence discussion. Is the death penalty fair? Yes. Is it right? No. People all too often forget that justice isn't always about being fair, it's often about doing what's right no matter how much it hurts.

Should Demona be punished for what she has done? Yes. Should she or someone she cares for die for her crimes? No.

Court is adjourned.
Tim P. - [dtkphipp@pionet.net]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 12:20:04 PM
IP: s11-onawa.pionet.net

Sorry for the double post.

Scott Iscow> Did you receive my email of a couple days ago?
Aris Katsaris
Sunday, July 25, 1999 11:17:08 AM
IP: athe530-e046.otenet.gr

Something boring and irrelevant (because I'm in a "boring and irrelevant" mood):
Someone said that Utopia comes from Eutopia (nice place). That's incorrect actually though I've heard it before. Utopia comes from U-topia (no-place) the name by itself signifying that no such place can exist. The first is pronounced in greek "Eftopia", the second is pronounced "Ootopia". The misconception comes I think from the fact that in English the combination of letters "eu" is pronounced the same with initial "u". (So that "Eureka" becomes "Yoorika" instead of "Evrika") No such thing occurs in greek.
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 11:15:42 AM
IP: athe530-e046.otenet.gr

Well, I won't be here after tomorrow. I'm going to stay at a friend's house...that is a college dorm! I'm going to stay with my friend Sam that is in college at Florida State. She's letting me stay there! I'm so excited!
Heather - [kheetor84@aol.com]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 10:58:35 AM
IP: abd2e937.ipt.aol.com

Wilek wrote: "A Handmaid's Tale? I remember seeing that on the Sci-Fi channel. Sick little movie, that, and one of the few that has ever really, really disturbed me. And...did anyone else happen to notice that one of the symbols of the Republic Of Gilead was an eye atop a pyramid...?"

Sci-Fi channel, huh? I recall I first saw the movie version of "A Handmaid's Tale" on HBO, about a year after I had read the book (I had read the three books I mentioned for the thesis paper I did for HS senior year AP English.) Like most movie adaptations of novels that I've seen over the years, it was watered down and the plot had been altered somewhat, I assume to give it more "action" and make it more "appealing" to a movie-viewing audience by not asking them to think as much about what they were seeing. While the movie adaptation followed a lot closer to the book than say, the movie "The Running Man" did to Steven King's short novel of the same name, the differences were still substantial enough that a lot of what came through in the book was lost in the movie. In short, to me it seemed that they probably could've invested a bit less money in painting all those cars and vans with flat black primer in a vain attempt to make the Ford Escorts and Aerostars look "futuristic" and instead put a bit more in developing the screenplay.

So I would still recommend reading the book, even if you have seen the movie. Quite frankly, between the book and the movie, the book is always better 99% of the time.
Patrick Toman
Sunday, July 25, 1999 10:37:41 AM
IP: 98af8c23.ipt.aol.com

Doug and Kitainia-Missing Link, eh? So far, two questions. One. What do you both think of Lucia? Two, what was your initial reaction when you heard Ghaleon speak in the Ancient Ruins before he even came through the door, then when he did come through the door?
As for the hard places, well, once you get near Azado, GET STOCKED UP ON HEALING ITEMS!!!!! I'm not going to Spoil why, but you'll understand soon enough. That's not where the difficult Boss is, but the place was still a royal pain because I didn't know what lay ahead. I'm not telling you, either, but I'm warning you right now.

Dystopias and Utopias-Utopias won't hinder evolution of the mind or any form of evolution. Or development. On the other hand, some utopias will. It depends on the type of utopia. Some people, probably the Second Class Citizens, and the First Class Citizens, could call Solaris a utopia. Doug, Kitainia, we three know just how much of a 'utopia' Solaris really is, eh?

The 'No Duh' Comment-Sorry if I offended you. What were you talking about then?

Demona-I still say she was only seeing things through her viewpoint. I suppose we'll wait and find out, and if it doesn't get revealed by the end of TIMEDANCER, ask the Authors for an explanation. Of course, telling them if it'll get explained elsewhere to just tell us its a Spoiler, and then not give the explanation.

"My purpose is the same as always. Total destruction. That and that alone!"-Fei/Id
XENOGEARS
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 08:35:30 AM
IP: 171.morristown-05-10rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

Okay, I think I'm completely caught up on the room now, although I may have missed something important while skimming in places.

Happy birthday to everyone who has/had birthdays this week. (I knew I had forgotten something in my last post...

<<20 bucks to see Demona take off DiCaprio's head>> Oo, I like that... How much would it cost to see her strangle him with his own intestines and then eat his brains on toast?

SOROW> <<Peter Wingfield (Methos) is pretty damn hot :)>> I agree. Personally, I like him better than Adrian Paul. Why couldn't they have given Methos the spinoff instead of Amanda? I never liked her character and now she looks like the Taco Bell chihuahua.

Pistoff> <<And as for the Pay Per View executions, George Carlin had a bit about that in one of his recent shows. Basically, the idea was to execute criminals by nailing them to a large wooden cross at half-time during the Monday Night Football.>> Didn't he also have an older bit about televising beheadings and then letting the heads roll down a hill so that people could bet on which basket they would land in? >: ) I always liked Carlin's stuff.

Christine> <<every pinhead with a scuba suit out looking for the remains..>> Can you imagine what would have happened if they *had* left him there and then someone found the body. Knowing the type of perverts out there these days, I could easily imagine someone selling it over the internet, little chunks at a time.

Zath - [zath@rocketmail.com]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 08:25:17 AM
IP: ns3-09.viptx.net

Tonight on the Disney Channel. GARGOYLES. 9:30 mountain time.

Pistoff we have had the problem with pediphile priests here in NM sometime back. They church was in total deniale and would just transfer them to other parishes where they persisted in their abuse. It took several extremely large lawsuits for them to address the problem of both the abuse and the abusers. To this day, the church has a guarded reputation, which I find sad. There are truly many good men and women in the church, but they have all suffered for the stupidity of a few people.

Starsinger
Theresa - [Starsinger@Webtv.net]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 07:56:13 AM
IP: proxy-323.public.rwc.webtv.net

<<No posts for three hours?>> Er...four hours. Took longer to type that post than I thought. :)
Wilek
Sunday, July 25, 1999 07:08:35 AM
IP: tnt-1-102-56k.portsmouth.zoomnet.net

**LONGER THAN USUAL RP!**

[Toliana and Buick's battle with the Pokemon is proceeding apace, the Ice Dagger taking out more than a few of the enraged creatures, but taking severe damage in the process. Soon, however, thanks to Buick's piloting skill and Toliana's marksmanship, the Pokemon are cleared, although at a heavy price--the Ice Dagger is so badly damaged that it has to return to the Avatar Of Ganon for repairs.

Meanwhile, on said station, Dark Eternal once again contacts his mysterious master..."Sir, I have made an...interesting...discovery. The cyborg race that inhabits this station appears to possess sophisticated matter-energy exchange technology--specifically, matter replication." Darth Jashin: "What...?! That would solve so much...can they be persuaded to...share it?" Eternal: "Unknown. Perhaps if we can convince them that we have something of equal value to give them. <types a command into a nearby keypad> I am transmitting everything I have been able to find out about them; perhaps you can learn something from it." Jashin looks over the data... "Indeed...I have an idea. What's going on over there just now?" Dark Eternal: "The station's forces are still engaged in battle with the World Devastator, although it now appears to be disabled, and the staff has just chosen a permanent chief of security to replace me." Dark Eternal's appointment to the post was temporary, until the staff could find someone else. Jashin: "Good; that frees you up for what we are about to do. I will arrive shortly after the destruction of the Devastator." Eternal: "Lord Jashin, with all due respect, are you certain that's wise?" Jashin: "They're not likely to want to come here. I believe that little planet has a saying: If the mountain will not come to Mohammed...whoever he is..."]

**PAUSE**

No posts for three hours? Slow night. Oh well. And thanks, everyone who welcomed me back! :D

Airwalker> <<Let's say that for travel to the past and to the future two different rules exist [...]>> Ah, that prevents a single fixed future *and* preserves Gargoyles' rules of time travel. I love it. :)

Patrick Toman> A Handmaid's Tale? I remember seeing that on the Sci-Fi channel. Sick little movie, that, and one of the few that has ever really, really disturbed me. And...did anyone else happen to notice that one of the symbols of the Republic Of Gilead was an eye atop a pyramid...?

Pistoff> <<Basically, the idea was to execute criminals by nailing them to a large wooden cross at half-time during the Monday Night Football.>> Interesting. I just know a few churches would have complained about *that*. :P

$SJ> <<I always feel colossaly paranoid when I'm left in charge of another's characters.>> You too? I try to avoid writing specifically for other ppl's characters in the RP, mostly because I'm always worried about messing up. But you've done *great* with my characters while I was away. :) <<Wookies are a warrior race. Warrior races are my friend. Gungans, sir, are no warrior race!>> Ah. I must have been misled by their talk of having a 'great army'; probably their really good fighters are a minority. Still, there have to be at least a *few* Gungans who are good in a fight and don't make you want to toss them into a Sarlacc. :) (I think one of them works on the Avatar...)$

$Doug> <<Don't forget that Pete, Berg, and Sharon (from ABC's bleah sitcom Two Guys and a Girl) are guarding the engine room door. If you want, Kit and I can eliminate them for you next post.>> Thanks, but I have a bit of an idea (see exit RP for a distinct implication thereof). ^_^ Although I don't have a clue as to what they're like, so feel free to correct any characterization errors...$

Jaden> <<After I finished my report I burned all my research. The last thing I want is for someone to find that stuff and assume the way wrong thing.>> ACK. It's getting ridiculous when your homework becomes potentially incriminating. O_O'

Christine> <<Phantom Menace > saw it again yesterday, liked it even better the second time around, and am more sure than ever that Obi-Wan is the hunk of the galaxy. Might even have to write a 'fic to get him out of my system. Hmm ... "Jedi Nights"?>> You, writing a Star Wars fic? It's the end of the world. ;P j/k Feel free to consult me regarding any historical or technological concerns. :) (Not that the kind of thing you're probably thinking of is likely to require that...<G>) <<then again, if they hadn't retrieved the bodies, there would have been a.) persistent rumors that JFK Jr. didn't really die or b.) every pinhead with a scuba suit out looking for the remains. Or, really, c.) both.>> Like that'll stop them? There are ppl who still think Elvis is alive, despite the fact that there is documentation of his autopsy.

And as it would probably be a good idea if I said something about Gargs or TGS in a post of this length...I found an interesting ASCII drawing of Demona (I presume?) at my name link (the drawing is at the bottom of the page). :)

**RESUME RP**

[Jake has just about torn all the engineering service access plates off the walls, and found no sign of any conduit feeding power to the corridor defenses. Jake: "Sorry, guys; the power for those things must come from somewhere else. Probably the engines, and well, we can't get to them." Anoth: "Perhaps a spell of--" A voice interrupts him from the other end of the corridor: "No magic can help you now." It's the borgified Pete, with Berg and Sharon standing at either side. The three drones stride down the protected corridor, their designator circuits preventing the defenses from incinerating them, and ready their weapons. Berg: "I say spells are for wimps anyhow." Sharon: "Yeah, let's get these creeps!" They open fire, and the battle is joined...]

**END RP!**
Wilek Nereus
Sunday, July 25, 1999 07:06:57 AM
IP: tnt-1-102-56k.portsmouth.zoomnet.net

SJ: "Significant number" doesn't necessarily mean thousands or millions or whatever. Maybe it's because the town I live in is jam-packed with perverts of every size and shape. There are people here who make Caligula look like Paul Reubens whacking off in a porno theater. This is where my experience comes from, and if that has skewed my perspective, then so be it.

I'm sick of this whole thing. I already apologized, and I'm not gonna keep on apologizing for the next six months. I was tired and grumpy when I made that first post, and I was pissed at the guy I was responding to. So I screwed up. Sorry. That's the last thing I'm gonna say about this.
I'm putting behind me, whether anybody else wants to or not. I'm moving on. If anybody else attacks me, I'll ignore it. I've got better things to do than keep up an argument that won't change any minds one way or another.
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 03:16:44 AM
IP: wire-10.koalas.com

Sevarius Jr. & Mighty Mutanimals> I know...great concept, just sucky artwork and plotline...save the United We Stand trilody...that was cool...anyway, klick on my name to see some life-after-death fics on these dudes that, what I understand from other MM fans, are the more believable MM fics out there...hey, I think they're good...and, if you have read them, I'll tell you right now...

HOW POE GOT TO PURGATORY (You'll love this one, Jebbers): During WWII, a then-unnamed raven was sucked into the jet engine of a certain ME-109 piloted by one Wagner von Schloss...

Okay, I'se tired...night all...

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Sunday, July 25, 1999 01:37:17 AM
IP: ddialup-w-3.mint.net

****NO RP TONIGHT****
Just stopped by to wish you all a happy B-day. I wish I could send you all present.
It's weird now isn't it. When people talk about teenagers they won't be talking about us anymore.

Wilek-First welcome back! Second-Same here. After I finished my report I burned all my research. The last thing I want is for someone to find that stuff and assume the way wrong thing.

I'll post more next time. Later!
Jaden - [jaden12@hotmail.com]
Los Alamos, CA
Sunday, July 25, 1999 01:22:22 AM
IP: pm1-18.vpop1.avtel.net

Note to everyone: Voyage was posted pretty far down on the GFW new stories list for some reason. Don't know why that happened, you'll have to scroll down a bit to find it. But don't worry, it's there. <grin> Hope I soon get feedback.

SJ (and Wilek): $ Don't forget that Pete, Berg, and Sharon (from ABC's bleah sitcom Two Guys and a Girl) are guarding the engine room door. If you want, Kit and I can eliminate them for you next post. Also don't forget that Stewie has a possible contender for his leadership- Angelica. Just friendly RP reminders. <grin> $

More after the room clears tomorrow.
Doug
Sunday, July 25, 1999 12:27:40 AM
IP: pool-209-138-163-97.dlls.grid.net

Picture tonight in honor of an absent friend.

Anyway, what a lousy day. I missed my Fading Suns game because one of the players had to go to San Antonio to help a friend move, so I decided to do my laundry, only I forgot to check my pockets, and there was a pen in one of my pants pockets. Now all my light colored clothing, including most of my socks, is covered in little black spots.

On the bright side, I finally figured out the plot for "Hot Lead and Coldsteel." It always makes writing easier when you know what you're supposed to be saying.

Replies:
delphi> I'll send it Monday. Attachments work much better from work than from home.

Robby> There are entire forests that exist only in memory becaues of all the drawings I've started that didn't come out right. I feel for you.

Utopia Discussion> Just a bit of trivia, courtesy of my Liberal Arts education. The first recorded use of the word Utopia to describe a perfect society was by Sir Thomas More in the 1500's. He wrote it in Latin, which was the custom of the day. Translatedinto English (From Latin or Greek, I can't remember) Utopia means "Nowhere."

Now, as to whether or not a Utopia (or Eutopia ='good place') can really exist, I don't think so, because of the inherrant flaws in humanity. For a perfect society, you have to have a perfect population. If even one person refuses to play along, the society can't work. The others have to either cave in to what the dissenter wants, kick him out, or kill him.

For some interesting reading on the subject, I suggest:
Walden 2 - by B.F Skinner
Those who walk away from Omleas - a short story by Ursla Le Guin
Squadron Supreme - a trade paperback from Marve Comics
The Appleseed manga - by Misume Shiro, I think

Anyway, that's about enough for tonight. See ya'll later.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Saturday, July 24, 1999 11:55:17 PM
IP: pppa3-fortworthb3-3r522.saturn.bbn.com

***BEGIN RP*****
"Stewie! Stewie!" the Borg Chuckie cried. "Wilek, SJ, and the rest are almost here! They've almost made it past the corridor defenses!"
"Ha ha ha!" Stewie laughed viciously. "As I expected! They shall be met with a rather rude surprise! But I suppose I should send one of you pathetic peons to take care of them. Brendan! Chop chop!" Stewie clapped his little hands.
"What? What do you want?"
"Don't stand there with that stupid look on your face, get going!"
"Wait a minute, who the hell said you could volunteer me to do anything?"
"JUST GO, YOU WORTHLESS SIMPLETON!!!"
Brendan gathered a few weapons, and, cursing under his breath, left to join the battle....
****END RP****

Wilek: Glad you're back. I always feel colossaly paranoid when I'm left in charge of another's characters. I don't want to step on any toes.
Oh, and as for the Gungans....I've seen The Phantom Menace. Wookies are a warrior race. Warrior races are my friend. Gungans, sir, are no warrior race! ;)

Tom Baker fans: Well, it doesn't look as if Tom is gonna be in LOTR (although you can always hold out hope that Pete Jackson will cast him as Saruman). You can be assured, though, that Tom *has* been cast in the new Dungeons and Dragons movie. Don't know exactly which part though.

TMNT Comics: I always preferred the more mature, violent Mirage issues, but the Archie Comics version was pretty good as well. Well written, I liked the visual style, it was fun. Can't really say I took to well to the Mighty Mutanimals, though. Yeesh.

Back to School Woes: Hey, don't complain. I finished taking a summer CS class THURSDAY. My next semester begins August 23. I now have less than 1 month of summer vacation. Yeah for me.

Dystopias/Utopias: This reminds me of a scene in "The Matrix". Agent Smith was explaining to Morpheus how the AI's constructed the matrix vr world....he said that they initially created a utopia, but people rejected that. They actually needed the adversity and stress of an "ordinary" world. Of course, this is just science fiction, of course, but it poses an interesting question: if we did achieve a utopia, would we lose our drive? Our initiative? Or, as it has been sometimes said, do we only continue to grow because of constant struggle? Evolution, if you believe in it, is based upon the whole idea that we need the struggle for survival in order to progress. Would a utopia halt our ability to grow and change as a species, and consequently that is why no utopia on earth has sufficiently been successful? Heaven, or its equivalents, are a form of utopia, but that is based upon the belief that, at that point, we will have achieved perfection. Are we as a species incapable of an earthly utopia? In fact, do we need some form of a dystopia in order to really thrive and evolve?

Pistoff: Okay, I'll admitt I was tired and in a bit of a foul mood. But I still think my comments had some merit. That IS an unfair stereotype of priests, pure and simple.
You said that a "significant" number of priests get off on little boys. Not *most* of them, but a significant number. Think about that. There are probably at *least* a 100 million Catholics in the world. That averages out to several million priests alone. Are you telling me that, out of those millions a significant number of them are child molestors? No way, not *that* many.
I can speak from experience with this. Back in high school, I went for a time to a parochial religious school. It was a good school, with a good history, and a fine curriculum. During my tenure there, one of the teachers got caught (and consequently served time) for sodomizing a few of the students (female students). This was 1 man. One teacher, out of literally hundreds in the history of the school, and the school had decades of a spotless record. My point is that, yes, the occasional pervert does slip through the cracks. But they are in no way numerous, or even "significant" in their number. You say you know people who've seen it--hey *I* have seen it. It's horrible, it's tragic, but in no way is it so very commonplace or frequent.
I'm not Catholic, and frankly, there are a lot of things I disagree with, dogma-wise, with the Catholic church. But I think that this is one hell of totally negative, undeserved stereotype that has been placed upon the Catholic priests, simply because a few perverts, out of millions, go and perform certain acts that are truly f***ed up. I'm not saying it *never* happens, it does, but c'mon, your initial comment made it sound as if it happens everyday (or at least it's a constant threat), as if a good-sized portion of the priesthood are closet members of NAMBLA. I have to agree with Green Baron, even though yes, some cases do occur, it is people like the media who jump up and down with joy as soon as one of them pops up, hyping them up, almost as if they are practically orgasmic that they can take a chink out of the Catholic church. Whether you realized it or not at the time, you DID help perpetuate a stereotype, a particularly cruel one. You yourself said that *most* priests don't molest altar boys....and it's not most of them, or a majority, just a random group of sick f!cks. It's one of the saddest things in the world when it happens, but the whole "priests are child molestors" idea IS, by and large a stereotype, and an unfair one at that.
I don't want a flame war. Hell, I like you, you're a cool guy. I just don't think it was fair to say what you did. I don't think you're a bigot, but I do think your initial comment was pretty below the belt. It's not fair to say a generalized comment like that about priests, because for every bastard clergyman who does touch a kid, there are literally thousands who don't, who are decent, normal individuals. I am sorry if I've offended you, but I...I just did not think your comments were fair at all. I said the wrong, thing, though (as I unfortunately often do), and for that I'm sorry.
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 11:50:52 PM
IP: 207-172-52-254.s254.tnt1.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

TALEWEAVER - You wrote: [If you believe that the past is immutable, one of the price is that free will is just an illusion.]

Actually I believe in both predestination AND free will.

The best way to describe this is to describe time like a huge endless highway. The entire highway is laid out. You are going down this highway and it extends endlessly in front of you. That is Pre-destination.

But on the highway, you still have the ability to choose between lanes, between which path you go down on that highway. That is free will. Everytime we choose between good and evil, we are choosing which lane on the highway we want to go down.

The lanes are there. The highway is there but the way we go down it is still in our hands. That's how I believe in Pre-destination and Free Will.

Now I also believe history is immutable. You can't go back and undo a decision. The past has passed by. It's behind you. You can look back at it but you can't change it. The choice of what way to go is the only thing that matters now.

(If you did go back, odds are that history would find a way to sabotage your intent to change everything. If you don't remember running into yourself then it never happened. You can go back but in the end you are only part of that existing past. In fact, by going back you probably help bring events closer to what you know then change them.)

If history can be changed by anyone then chaos will be the result. The universe has been moving from chaos into order since the beginning. (At least I believe so anyway.) It will seek to keep everything from changing just to avoid the chaos that would result.


As for Demona in the future, I don't mind her as an outcast. It's just that there shouldn't be a uniform response. There will always be a majority that will go one way but there should be others that would stand out and not go the way of the majority. If most reject her or avoid her, then I believe that there would be some who wouldn't do this. It's the uniformity that bothers me, not the actual rejection which is possible given 160 years.
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, July 24, 1999 11:32:28 PM
IP: 50.new-york-28-29rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

In the spirit of the farie Puck, who I played in four performances of A Midsummer's Night Dream a while back, I've decided to throw a contest of sorts... So, I'm proud to announce...

FANDOM TOP FIVE CONTEST!

What I'm doing is basically holding a poll of favorites in a few categories.

Favorite Author
Favorite Artist
Favorite Cycle
Favorite Individual Story
Favorite Individual Artwork
Favorite Male Character
Favorite Female Character
Favorite Villain/Villainess

The rules are simple enough. Anyone who wishes to vote sends me an e-mail with ONE choice for each category. In the interests of fair play, I ask that you don't vote for your own work, but I won't disqualify a vote if you do. The deadline is August 8th, 12:00 AM Eastern time. After this date has passed, I will tally up the votes, and then announce the top five in each category and post the fandom's picks. There are no prizes or anything, this is just for fun and curiosity. (Note: TGS work IS applicable for this contest.)
Robby - [MrNoying@aol.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 11:11:53 PM
IP: spider-wj032.proxy.aol.com

Delphi enters the room wiping tear from here eyes>

Found another good story in the fanfic archives, I will be glad when the problems are fixed I really hate starting a story theard and not being able to finih it.

Thanks for all the book sugestions, my vaction is coming up and I'll probably pull a few book allnighters. I just cant put a good story down.

Thanks also for the movie ratings on inspector gaget, the kids and I are debating what we want to do for our day trips.

David G>> I'd love an advaced copy use my other email cmiller16@netscape.net(this one the kid's can't mess with)

I'm looking for an out of print book by Janny Wurts Stormwarden I would pay to get a copy since I have been sitting on the next two volumes (I really HATE reading them out of sequence)
delphi - [cmiller@magiclink.com]
Twin Falls, Idaho, s
Saturday, July 24, 1999 10:28:11 PM
IP: 207.14.195.176

Well, I'm in a bit of a funk... A large part of yesterday and for quite a few hours today I've been working on some upcoming TGS story illustrations, and not a single one of the two dozen or so drawings I've attempted has even started to come out right... Drawing... Not a fun process sometimes...

Really not much to say right now. Haven't seen any movies, and I've already gone over all the hot topics of the last three days or so...

Dragonball fans- THe new season finally starts on Cartoon Network September 15th. Yay!

Patrick- 1984 and Brave New World? Gee... Both of those are on my school asigned summer reading list. (Are they allowed to do that?) I suppose I should look into finding a copy of both books soon, since school starts in about two weeks...
Robby
Saturday, July 24, 1999 09:47:25 PM
IP: spider-wj071.proxy.aol.com

Wilek: Hey, welcome back! :) And I've heard a lot of people talking about exploding manhole covers, but I've never seen it myself. I've asked a couple of people in NYC if the manholes really explode there, but I haven't gotten an answer yet... And as for the Pay Per View executions, George Carlin had a bit about that in one of his recent shows. Basically, the idea was to execute criminals by nailing them to a large wooden cross at half-time during the Monday Night Football. :)

Paul: About your "another big DUH!" You missed the point of the question entirely. Don't insult my intelligence if you can't even figure out what I was really asking.

Kitainia: I agree completely. The only time I really enjoyed school (in small moments) was in my senior year, when I got to do a presentation on Monty Python's Flying Circus for my Honors English class. :) But other than that, ick! I would go into a six-week depression every time the "back to school" ads started....
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 09:34:53 PM
IP: wire-23.koalas.com

The problem with utopias is that not everyone has the same idea of what a utopia is. One man's idea of utopia is ofter another man's living hell. For some excellent examples, I'd recommend reading "1984" by George Orwell, "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley, and, for something a bit more contemporary (and IMHO, more disturbing), "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood.

:: end shameless plug for broadening your literary horizons ::
Patrick Toman
Saturday, July 24, 1999 08:43:32 PM
IP: abd1e681.ipt.aol.com

<Drum Roll and Shameless Plug Alert!>

Attention everyone! Now available at GFW for your reading pleasure- my new story "Voyage." If you want to, please go read and enjoy!

Note: The next story in the saga will not be "Protected Species." I've decided that I want to do another fic first called "Eruption." Sorry to any who were temporarily misled.

More later.
Doug
Saturday, July 24, 1999 08:22:30 PM
IP: pool-207-205-237-88.dlls.grid.net

The future and free will> I won't say whatis to believed or not, but one my philosophy teachers one said that every point of view has benefits and a price. If you believe that the past is immutable, one of the price is that free will is just an illusion. The only fundamental diference between past, present and future is frame of reference. Our present is someone else's past and anothers future. So which is the truth? I think the past is changible. Just because we haven't done it yet, doesn't mean it's impossible. Change is different from manipulating. Understanding the myraid of factors and contributing points that make a historical event are greatand many. Doing it for a specific outcome is not easy.

As far as Demona in the future. What makes you think Demona didn't want it that way? Demona's only way of relating to others is through intimidation. In City of Stone she said she'd rather be feared than respected. Maybe Demona is a victim of her own success. She's universally feared and surprise few people want her around. But like others have said. It's 160 years and a lot can happen. Just look at what's happened in the gargoyle universe in just 5 years.

Dystopia/Utopia> My opinon only people who are in paradise would want to leave it. When you've struggled, I mean *struggle* can you appreciate happiness. I haven't sturggled like that. I've noticed in these dystopia it usually some suburb fantasy. I know that if I toiled just to survive. Just to eck out enough to make it through that day and that at any moment for any reason that are beyond my control, I'd think a utopia would be pretty nice.

but as the dragons say, reality is what we choose to accept and what we choose to ignore.
taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 07:28:13 PM
IP: pool591-cvx.ds68-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net

...
Anonymous
Saturday, July 24, 1999 04:47:29 PM
IP: spider-we061.proxy.aol.com

Heh...actually,I marginally like Load and Reload as much I as like Harvey Danger and Smashmouth: Take it or leave it. I did like And Justice For All a lot, though it was during that "commercial" transistion...let's face it: the only reason I have Load and Reload is because it's Metallica. As much as their new music sucks (Until It Sleeps and Unforgiven II makes me twitch and want to shoot something), I did swear to my friend Mike, the manager of Bull Moose Music, "If Garage Inc doesn't have any Sabbath covers, I'm not getting it." Lo and behold, not only is there Sabera Cadabra on it (with National Acrobat, one of my faves, in the middle of the song), there's a kick-ass version of Astronomy on it. So they didn't totally go commercial on that, though "Turn The Page" became one of the *twitch twitch* songs on The List That Should Not Be...

*sighs.* I miss Cliff Burton...he's been dead for thirteen years, but I still miss him...

*yawns.*

BBL.

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 04:29:59 PM
IP: ddialup-w-61.mint.net

**RP HERE**

Gubio wakes up inside the Onslaught's cab, impulsively chuckling as he sees his companions' marked-up faces. Tricia and Stephanie tell him to look at himself and Gubio frowns. "Great," he sighs as he wipes his face off, realizing the Onslaught has toppled over and is now being banged on and torn to pieces by Borg Huns. Tricia hits the button to electrify the mech's outer shell and thankfully it works, throwing off the screaming Huns and destroying them but leaving the Onslaught disabled. "Great," Tricia sighs. "How are we going to beat these guys now?" "Get out and fight them on foot of course!" Stephanie replies, waving to her two companions. "Come on!" Nearby on the battlefield, Atilla the Hun is awakened by Reverend Atilla's mewing just in time to jump up and block Napoleon's latest swordthrust. "Curse you!" the short Frenchman growls. "I shall still give the coup de gras!" Their fight goes on.

Meanwhile, inside the Devastator, the Ravens have just finished off Bob Saget of America's Dummest Home Videos and a small army of his contestants (they were all assimilated, of course, but we didn't need that excuse!). Kitainia kicks one destroyed Borg's head across the room and then turns to make a post.

**END RP 1ST HALF**

Greetings and thanks again to everyone who wished me a happy birthday. The party was a lot of fun (don't worry, Coyote, we didn't take your advice. <grin> <zaps Execution Cake into a Strawberry one> Thanks for the gift. ) Hope Dags, Jaden, and Mandi had/have good birthdays too. Now on to replies.

Pistoff: I despise those back to school ads too. They remind me of times gone by, times that weren't that enjoyable. As I've mentioned in here before, my time in school had its ups and downs. Going back to it after summer vacation was always part of the latter.

Warpmind: You'll be missed while you're gone. Hope you have a good trip.

Paul: Thanks for the warning about Lunar 2's difficulty. So far the game hasn't been too much of a problem, but we're only at the Missing Link boss so we're not that far along. The tough bosses are probably ahead. :)

David G: Got your second fic and read it, I thought you did a pretty good job. Some plot and character developments seemed inconsistent when looked at after reading your first story, but nothing major. I enjoyed the well-written action and dialogue. James was a pretty interesting character as well. I look forward to seeing more development on him once you post more of your work.

Airwalker: Good points about the development of the Gargs future. I agree that the Garg-Human Relations subplot needs to be focused on again soon, it probably will be next season. Wonder what Clifford will do when he comes back.

Jewel, Wilek, Argent, Everyone else who's returned- Welcome back!

Time Travel: I've always liked the idea of it in stories, but don't think it would work in real life. If it does, I hope it works the Gargoyles way for history's sake. :)

Good Stories: I agree with Patrick, good plots and characters are what create good stories. As for what type of stories I like best, it's usually the one where characters' actions and development drive the plot more than vice versa.
Gargs was of course a story like that.

Argent: Good luck surviving Drivers Ed and passing it, hope you get it behind you soon.

Metallica: I like their new music better than the old too. Though the old is also very good. :) Def Leppard also has good music, IMO. I like their Greatest Hits CD as much as Metallica's Black Album.

Kaioto: I agree with you about Richard's character. He may be an ordinary guy, but he also has heroic potential. Hope to see your stories with him real soon.

Green Baron: Congrats on becoming a godfather. And congrats to Atilla on becoming a godfather's cat. :)

**SPOILERS FOR INSPECTOR GADGET**

Saw this movie yesterday. It was suprisingly quite entertaining. Like Coyote, Doug and I liked all the film's in-jokes and material from the original Gadget cartoon. The movie had a nice plot and decent characters, too. The Gadgetmobile was annoying at first, but it grew on me and by the end I liked it. He and the guy from Tokyo had the best lines. The movie also had nice cinematography and special effects. I gave it a 7/10, thumbs up.

**END INSPECTOR GADGET SPOILERS-REVIEW**

Okay, guess that's everything I wanted to give my two cents on. See everyone again, next week, and later!

**RP AGAIN**

"Wonder how many more of these things we're going to have to wade through before we find Guod," Jammer says as he carefully steps over a pair of destroyed Borg who used to be "kids who do the grossest things imaginable." "No matter how many there are," Doug replies, "we'll take care of them all." The others nod and they walk on.

Meanwhile down in the engine room, Brendan is sighing heavily as he works at a computer. "I just got the turbolasers back online," he says, throwing up his hands. "Now that hoverjet allied with the Ravens has taken out some of them and the remaining ones are quickly being destroyed as well." He glares at a monitor displaying Tricia using pyrokinesis to heat up the Devastator turbolaser's batteries so Gubio can take them out with his pistol while Stephanie stays close to and protects them both. "We have to get the engine started again," Brendan declares. "Only then can we reactivate the Devastator's main wave cannon and wipe out all of our enemies." "That should be easy," Grandpa Pickles tells him. "Startin' the engine, I mean. We put all the parts in." "But it's still not working," Brendan sighs. "Stewie, what do you think is going on?" "It's obvious to those of superior intellect!" the evil baby genius snaps. "The ship's radiator overheated when those explosives hit us and it's still not cool!" "Okay," Brendan says calmly. "We'll need some water." He presses the communicator button. "Hey Guod, can you send down our remaining H2O supplies immediately? Thank you." The screen goes blank.

**END THIS BIT OF RP**
Kitainia
Saturday, July 24, 1999 04:07:37 PM
IP: pool-207-205-148-47.dlls.grid.net

I took an old friend visiting from Houston to the movies and couldn't post yesterday... my ex was there too! Eeep...

Happy Belated Birthday to Kit, Dags, Jaden, and anyone else I missed! We luv you!

Methos, Cronos, Sithas, & Caspian> They were the four horsemen portrayed in the Highlander series, and Peter Wingfield (Methos) is pretty damn hot :)

***REVIEW & SPOILERS FOR THE HAUNTING***
Well, I'll say it was *nothing* like the original (which was lame)! I didn't think it wasted my time, cause I got in free, but it was very slow at first. I'll give it credibility that the one scary part of the movie (the skeleton) freaked me out! And oddly enough, when Crane was floating down the staircase, I though of TGS! I have no idea why! The dialogue was...simple and I liked the characters. If you have nothing else to do, then you should see this movie. Not bad, but not great...IMO.
***END REVIEW***

Off to read Dark Ages. OKIloveyoubyebye!
SOROW
Saturday, July 24, 1999 02:57:13 PM
IP: usr12-dialup274.mix1.irving.cw.net

Does anyone want to talk with a Demona-fan? ;): ...
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 01:50:04 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Oh, and one more thing...

Go to the GFW...I have a teaser and a MiSTed fic up...

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 01:11:53 PM
IP: ddialup-w-60.mint.net

SJ> Def leppard? Gimme a break. I love Metallica. Just that it seems that as soon as Newstead joined the ranks, Metallica went commercial. Master of Puppets was the best album. Cliff Burton shouldn't have died, or else I bet they'd still be writing stuff that would have evolved on MoP rather than go commecial. Metallica lost a quarter of its soul with Burton's death, and Newstead didn't replace it. Don't get me wrong, Jason's a talented bassist, it's just that he doesn't have that special something Cliff did...

In case most ppl don't know, I hate most of the crap they play on the radio these days. I'm not into bands that sold out. Probably explains why I'm such a Hawkwind nut. 29 years and still going, without airtime outside Great Britain.

JEB> Still trying to finish up on the HTML, but probably next week, you'll see the Nine-disk theory. And yes, I'm working on a TF fic...it's called "Till All Are One", and it's about a Decepticon who's not sure what side she's on anymore...also, it has a lot of Soundwave in it...

TMNTA> I loved Chris Allen's artwork. That was the best. I believe the one reason why Mutanimals bombed was that the artwork was too Disney-esque (like, Mickey Mouse, not Gargoyles), and the plotlines sucked. If they had the storylines and art more like the TMNTA series, the Mutanimals would have lasted a lot longer.

Man, I would have loved to get a chance doing pencils and story for the Mutanimals...hey, I could keep it clean...

Coyote> Heh...I just got the settlement from the state. I'm elegible for unemployment, despite being fired, because they didn't have any documentation and the boss lied in my face, I found out. I had printed a job four times, he told me six, and told the state I printed it nine. So I'm really happy. Now, to find another part-timer so I can keep my apartment. ^_^

Hai...back to whatever...

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 01:10:26 PM
IP: ddialup-w-60.mint.net

Delphi > Lisanne Norman's Sholan books are great! Well, the first one is lukewarm, but lordy lordy don't I know how that goes; the rest are _much_ better. My fave character is Kaid; I really tend to go for the strong silent suffering type.

Phantom Menace > saw it again yesterday, liked it even better the second time around, and am more sure than ever that Obi-Wan is the hunk of the galaxy. Might even have to write a 'fic to get him out of my system. Hmm ... "Jedi Nights"?

Burial at sea > then again, if they hadn't retrieved the bodies, there would have been a.) persistent rumors that JFK Jr. didn't really die or b.) every pinhead with a scuba suit out looking for the remains. Or, really, c.) both.

Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 01:04:05 PM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

I would think that living in a universe where the past can be changed would be very unsettling. At any moment some fool could go back in time and do something that would completely louse up your life. Then you or someone else would have to go back in time to correct matters - always assuming you had some way of discovering you ever had a decent life. And you might not even be able to make the discovery if the fool did something that prevented your ever existing. As you lived your life in the present, you'd never know from one minute to the next if your next breath would be your last. I wouldn't like this at all.

Jenniren
Saturday, July 24, 1999 12:50:21 PM
IP: user-2ivf5al.dialup.mindspring.com

To all those who had a birthday this past week happy belated birthday.
Lawrence Stone - [craft_celtic@yahoo.com]
Chillicothe, Ohio, USA
Saturday, July 24, 1999 11:16:51 AM
IP: chil-ras4-3-cs-10.dial.bright.net

Kronos, Caspian, Sithas, and Methos are well first you gotta understand I'm not talking about Biblocal men. Okay with that said I can safely say they were the four horseman of the apocolypse in the bronze age. Now remember I'm not talking about the bible ones. Oh well anyhow Methos-death, Caspian-famine, Kronos-conquest, Sithas-pestilence (ie disease).
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Saturday, July 24, 1999 11:15:15 AM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

WILEK - Welcome Back!


You wrote: [Because, if changing the past can be done, it's so unpredictable that it *shouldn't* be done. I mean, if there hadn't been a Wyvern massacre, the survivors wouldn't have ended up in the modern day, and the world would be devoid of a rather important clan.]

That's true. But if the past can be changed by any one person then this senario could be done. The consequences matter to us in that our present would be changed, but to that one person who wants to see the Wyvern Clan not get slaughtered then the present doesn't matter.

I'm against being able to change the past in stories. I like the Gargoyle approach to time travel. "History is immutable." You can't change it and if you try all your really doing is being part of the events as they existed in the actual history. (I like Todd's example once of someone trying to warn Caesar about his assassination. They got a letter to him warning him but he never got a chance to read it.) It complicates the characters life which is what stories are supposed to do. If you are ending a series then you try to end it on more or less a happy note. But in a continuing series, while characters can find happiness every once in a while and while their lives don't have to degenerate into a FUTURE TENSE or DAYS OF THE FUTURE PAST senario, it shouldn't be too easy for them.

(Goliath loves Elisa but if he really could change history and save his clan from massacure and stone sleep then it's possible he might have done it. Anyway if he did it, he would be wiped out of existance and only the Goliath of the new timeline who never knew Elisa would be around. So there wouldn't be any problem. Ignorance is bliss. He would never know what he was missing or what he gave up and it wouldn't haunt him. Like this he has no choice but to make a new life for himself in the present. The past is gone, the future is yet to be, the only time in now.)


My theory with Alternate Realities could be a good one but my main flaw in it is if Brooklyn is visiting alternate futures, then it is possible that he visited alternate pasts, something which just confuses everything. So I'm amending my theory. Brooklyn can only move to alternate realities when he is traveling past 1996, the time in which he was taken by the Gate. His timeline's past is set so he has no problem visiting that set past. But since he doesn't know what his future is supposed to be, it could be an alternate reality that he would be visiting.

Let's say that for travel to the past and to the future two different rules exist.

To the set past travel is no problem since the traveler would only be part of events. Not only that but the traveller has some knowledge of past events and this can act as sort of a guide, limiting travel to that one reality.

To the unknown future, travel to more than one reality is possible because the traveler has no idea what the future will be and the Gate has less limitations on it. It can now literally take you anywhere THE FIRST TIME. When Brooklyn visited the future in REQUIEM he had no idea what the future would hold so he was taken to A future. From that point on, he has an idea in his head of what the future would be like even if it might not be the future of his timeline. That's how the come the Gate took him back to that specific future again, and how the Gate will return him to his timeline's Sata who was left in what might be an alternate future.

This frees up Main TGS from TIMEDANCER's shown future since it might just be an alternate reality.
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, July 24, 1999 10:57:38 AM
IP: 196.new-york-20-25rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

First:
To answer the question "What happens if the person doesn't get married?", well, the simple answer is if said person who has chosen not to mate unless married never gets married then said person plain won't mate.
No offense here, but that is another big Duh!
Now that the very obvious topic is out of the way...

Scott Iskow-I haven't read anything Marvel mostly because of certain cliche aspects. That excludes their GARGOYLES Comics and a few others, but seriously, I'm not one for any of their aspects. I'n addressing this to you because of the 'sympathize' comment. I'm pretty sure you know that the gargoyles and all characters besides them in that Series can be understood. Hence, why the comment?
I think a lot of people could understand the people in the GARGOYLES Series.

Jewel Faulkner-Dystopian societies need to be used as plot devices, not for them to be there. There's no point in having people suffer just for the sake of having them suffer. Of course, if I had to choose, dystopian society would be much better than living as a Third Class Citizen in the Sacred Empire of Solaris. Actually, better than living anywhere in Solaris.

The TIMEDANCER Debate-I'm sure that Brooklyn and Sata will find out about the 'sneaking into heaven'. Speaking of them, I'm sure that there'll be wonderings about Jerusha when they meet Demona again in this time period. Brooklyn's promise should come up then. As for the aftermath of what happened with Jerusha, one, there was no mention of the spell being removed, and two, I think that was intended as a cliffhanger.

The Demona Debate-I still say what she saw was possibly from her point of view. Quite probably. If you expect to be treated bad you can very well interpret actions of others towards you as treating you badly.

Kitainia-Happy Birthday!

Doug-Thank you for the compliment. Where exactly are you in LUNAR II: ETERNAL BLUE, now, anyway? Any opinions yet? Oh, and after beating the Game, check your Save Files for a surprise.

As for why I didn't Post yesterday, I was on a vacation.

Also, about pent-up emotion. I have my own theories as to some of the recent school shootings and they don't involve pent-up emotions. You can block your emotions, and you can release them without hurting others.

"All this pain... all this sadness... Is that it!? Is that all there is!?
"Is that all there is to us?"-Fei Fong Wong
"Yes. This is 'our world'."-Fei/Id Fong Wong
XENOGEARS
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 09:48:54 AM
IP: 38.morristown-18-19rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

Quick post

Welcome back Wilek!!:)

C'yas later!

Xanathar
Melbourne, victoria, Australia
Saturday, July 24, 1999 07:10:43 AM
IP: 203.29.192.74

**RP!**

[In the World Devastator, Wilek returns the lightsaber he borrowed from Miriam and looks at the dead Borg Gungans suspiciously. Wilek: "I thought they were a warrior race; they shouldn't have gone down *this* easily." SJ: "Well, they *are* clones of Jar Jar. He isn't exactly a great fighter." Wilek: "True. So now what?" Anoth: "We proceed to the engine room." The team stalks off in that direction, encountering only token resistance--much of the rest has been sent after the Ravens--until they reach the final corridor leading to the engine room. They're about to walk blithely into the corridor when Anoth says, "Wait. Something isn't right here..." He looks around, telekinetically draws a piece of debris to his hand, and then throws it in the conventional manner into the corridor, where it is incinerated by the weapons lining the corridor. Wilek: "Uh oh. Now what do we do?" Jake: "Hm...if I could find the power conduit leading to those lasers..."] I've been away for a while, so forgive me if I messed anything up, continuity-wise. :)

**PAUSE RP!**

I'M BACK, EVERYONE! :D It's great to be home! <sees exactly how much he has to reply to> Ack...better get started...Some of my replies are going to be kind of outdated, since I've been away for a while.

Trent> <<New York doesn't attract weirdness... weird is its natural state.>> Ah. So, all the bizarre stuff that happens there is...normal. Normal is subjective I suppose. :)

SJ> <<Apperently, the Mexican Catholic Church has just recently come out and attacked Star Wars-Episode One: The Phantom Menace. They claim that the "virgin birth" of Anakin, the Jedi Council interrogation of Anakin (supposedly symbolic of young Jesus' meeting with the Jews in the synagogue), and the "messianic-like" Qui Gon-Jinn are all some form of blasphemy.>> Um...what? <blink> What in the world are they smoking over there?! <<I've been around a few atheists who, upon my mentioning my Faith, looked at me as if I had just told them I was off to go worship at the Cult of the Dead Cow on the planet Vulcan.>> I thought the Cult Of The Dead Cow was purged in the Vulcan Inquisition. Unless of course they're in seclusion, which wouldn't surprise me since Vulcans are good at hiding. I've heard they're in the middle of a holy war with the Temple of the Rotating Lagomorph. Hm, a new Dr. Who movie? Very kewl. Maybe the Daleks will be in this one. :) $Kewl spell. What language is that?$

Jaden> <<In my sociology class my group got stuck with writing about the Aryan Nations.>> ACK. If there's one group I'm prejudiced against, it's racists...

Pistoff> Manhole covers exploding? ACK. I'd never heard of that before; are the sewers really under that kind of pressure? <<If things keep going like they are, celebrity death will be an event on Pay Per View...>> I can just see it: 'Live celebrity executions, next time on Jerry Springer!' :P

Demona> Hm...this is the kind of debate I tend to avoid, since I'm just too twisted about this kind of thing to contribute anything worth hearing. As for what I'll be doing with her in my fics...well, I won't, not again anyhow. I just don't know much about writing such a complex character. I'll leave that to the veteran writers. I'll say this though--if humans are really as bad as she thinks, then she doesn't need to wipe them out; they'll do it themselves.

Shogun Raptor> <<Shogun flips open a panel on his armor, presses a few buttons and de-evolves into a velociraptor(cyber-cookie for anyone who can guess what TV show that de-evolution bit is from)>> Um...Dinosaucers? <<I will say one thing, was I the only one confused as to what gender Terk was?>> Um...female, I think.

Warpmind de Inzane> A mutant? That is so kewl. Interesting little modification. Has he been that way all his life, or...did he find a scientist who takes commissions? <G> <<maybe the ancient Egyptian art Sebat Kha>> There was an Egyptian martial art?! That must have been so kewl. <<Well, gotta go, some of those disgusting humans just arrived.>> They can be annoying, can't they. But we gargoyles will inherit the earth. >:) <<WARNING: The librarian present knows more about causing severe, painful injuries than about mending them.>> <laughs evilly> I LOVE IT. >:) <<who knows, maybe there's a few strange people out there who actually like Windows.>> Um, I've been using it and Win98 for about as long as I've been using computers. I like it because it's just about the only operating system that a decent amount of computer games are made for. Hm, you're leaving? Ack. Well, have fun. :) <<Korean Master was sent to dispose of this "upstart". Six seconds into the match, including the warm-up exercises, the Korean Champ was on the ground, begging for mercy. How I wish I'd been there to see it.>> WOAH. Now THAT is impressive.

Forrest> As is having belts in six different martial arts. WOW.

Matt Dymond> <<JEB> You mentioned a Transformers soundtrack - do you have the movie one?>> I do, and it's interesting. The theme is just about the only rock song I can stand. And it's very reminiscent of the Unseelie War. :)

Skippy> <<You mentione Ghostbusters, well, they just released the DVD version and I've heard it has some interesting features including a "pop-up video" mode where small captions show up mentioning various little triva tidbits>> Sounds neat; I'll have to check it out.

Christine> <<dreams of a black Chihuahua? (wow, what a title that would be!) ... well, I guess it proves that Taco Bell is in league with the Devil ...>> Hm...the little dog *is* apparently trying to take over the world...oh well, at least he has a kewl song. :) (I wonder if there's a MID of it...) <<Imagine some sexy thing's got you in the same spot as Nick. Imagine the sexy thing suddenly sprouts a bunch of extra bristly legs and venom-dripping mandibles and big faceted eyes ... right at _that_ moment.>> Didn't that happen in an anime; 'Wicked City' or something to that effect?

Deuce> <looks at his post in shock> YOU'RE LEAVING?! Over...what, the rant at Nguyen?! He deserved that, and it was justified! You've hurt and damaged NO ONE! (No one who didn't thoroughly deserve it anyhow.) Please, don't leave; you're a valued member of our clan, both as our co-administrator and as a friend.

Glimmer> <<And you forgot the 80's TV show Beauty and the Beast on your New York wierdness list. And if I'm not mistaken Spiderman, too.>> Ah. Thanks for reminding me. :) Hm...Spiderman's from New York? I thought he was from somewhere else, Empire City or something. I could be mistaken though. And about your grandmother, you have my condolences. But I'm glad she's at least still alive. <<Anybody know how to preform exorcisms?>> Well...I know a great incantation, but I'm afraid I don't have any magical talent (that I know of). :)

Dagastino> I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your grandmother. We seem to have a lot in here with ailing family (and all of those I missed, you have my sympathy). :(

Favorite Villains> Oh, where do I begin? Hm...Maleficent, Scar, Zira, Ursula, Henry Stauf, Emperor Palpatine, Ganondorf Dragmire, a lot of others I forget...

Greg 'Xanatos' Bishansky> Um...who's Hecate? :}

Coyote> <<Does anyone recall if Tress MacNeille was a Garg voice actress? Because she's credited for backup vocals on two of the tracks on "Running with Scissors" and I *swear* I've heard that name before!>> She's been in a LOT of animated series--Babs on Tiny Toon Adventures, Dot on Animaniacs, I think that one girl on Rescue Rangers, and a lot of others I can't remember. <<Unfortuately, my grandmother's condition has apparently worsened.>> Oh no. She'll be in my thoughts.

Theresa> <takes and lights a candle> Great idea; thanks for thinking of this. :) And I'm glad your mother is out of the hospital. :)

Spike> Kewl pic. :)

Entity> <<As for clues on Asrial's future... you may have better luck asking Greg who he had in mind for Lex's mate.>> That mean you'll tell us eventually? <G>

Kaioto> <<You put a bright evil and a dark evil on either side.>> Bright and dark evil? That sounds fascinating...<<Gargoyle claws reaching up, somehow animated from the death, raised in supplication. The voices of her slaughtered rookery siblings whispering … louder and louder … the claws grasping at her legs, trying to grab a piece of her life, shaking her, the chorus of whispers becoming more and more audible until she makes out the angry, hurt question, "why … why … Why?" And then, left with no other answer than her own responsibility, "awakening" from the daymare, drenched in sweat and screaming … Settling her heart-rate, immersing herself back in work through the tears of agony … glancing down at the rug as she thinks she seems claws out of the bottom corners of her vision … until the dreams consume her again … dreading when she finally has to sleep … for in sleep, the daymares seem like gentle fantasies compared to the nightmares that ride her … and now she has no anger, no denial to hide behind. Her soul is vulnerable, and is being torn at for the rest of her immortal existence.>> You're twisted. I like it. >:)

Paul> If you're *that* concerned with typing Pistoff's name (for some reason), you could simply copy and paste it. <<there's only one story that, when using light, and dark, has used dark for goodness, light for evilness. Well, only one that I can remember, and I was pleased with the plot idea.>> Hm...I don't know if this is the one you're referring to, but I seem to remember a made-for-TV movie called White Dwarf--I think that was the name--about a planet that had light and dark sides. I think the leaders of the light side were amoral and decadent, and the leaders of the dark side were noble and honorable. Although it's been years and years since I saw that movie, so I'm probably remembering it completely wrong.

Todd> <<what are the religions of the major human characters in "Gargoyles"?>> Um...I think there's a Grimorum essay at GFW that theorizes that Halcyon Renard may have been Catholic. <<As long as it doesn't involve some Fey waving his or her hand and making everything better, as long as it has some expensive price attached to it, then I guess I could live with it.>> Hm...maybe Asrial could be brought back in the same way Coldstone was (in a cybernetic body)? I can't think why they would do that, and it doesn't make much sense story-wise, but it'd certainly be appropriate for her. :)

Xanathar> Favorite eps? Um...I have no idea. :)

Aaron> <<Lame, I know, but I'm beginning to think we've used all the really good ones.>> Heh heh heh...as long as there is one twisted and sadistic mind here, there are always new frontiers of fear and torment to explore. >:)

For those of you who are just now tuning in, no I am not Traveler. :P

James Birdsong> Methos, Cronos, Sithas, and Caspian? They sound interesting. Who...are they, exactly?

Steve Gooch> <<What do you CALL someone like that? Dick? Mr. Dick? Dick Dick? Double-Dick? :)>> Er...I *could* say something really disgusting right about now. :P Oh, and while I was away, I encountered one of those weird little stuffed beanbag toys, a jellyfish called Goochy. Strange little coincidence. :) <<Btw, Wilek, come up with a nice D.C. death for me on this one, I'm not in the mood and I'm at my best with Microsoft employees. Something with a chipper-shredder or a combine, please>> I'd be glad to; he and I have a few issues to resolve anyhow...

**DC DEATH**

[Mr. Disconnect is running home, as usual, attempting to avoid the notice of his many, many enemies...when he hears what sounds like a very, very large helicopter hovering directly overhead. A spotlight shines from above, directly on to him. He flees, and once he's no longer being blinded by the spotlight, sees that the pursuing vehicle is a stealth-rigged Fortress-class skyship. Several garglike flight-modified battle droids swoop from the ship's hangar bay, grab DC, return him to the ship, and strap him to a rack, where Wilek is waiting. Wilek: "Greetings, old friend. Now, I wonder who COMPLETELY REARRANGED the channel listings on DirecTv, DESTROYING my timers and preferences file? And I further wonder who has kept my mail server down for the past THREE HOURS? And what's this I hear about you playing with Wyvernweb? Ohhh, you are in for a treat today..." Wilek slices open DC's torso with a hooked knife, takes a hot iron from the nearby furnace, and entwines DC's intestinal tract around it, before shoving it up DC's throat and out his mouth. He then uses several foot-long crystal spikes to nail DC to the rack, even though he's already tied up, then pours cold water into DC's thoracic cavity, which interacts with the hot iron to produce a great deal of steam, which is even more agonizing than the hot iron. He then regards DC thoughtfully, not sure what to do next. He then decides upon driving a multitude of small nails into just about every part of DC's body that hasn't already been slashed open, then pouring acid all over DC, making his many wounds all the more painful. Then, remembering Steve's request, he unties DC and removes the crystal spikes, then tosses him out a convenient trapdoor and into a yard (about a mile below), where his shattered and broken body falls into a coincidentally-placed chipper-shredder that is merrily compacting dead leaves into fertilizer. The owner of the chipper-shredder somehow fails to notice DC falling into his machine, and eventually, DC is fed to his garden.]

**END DEATH**

Robby> You're back! YEAH! Welcome back, and I hope you didn't become too sane while you were gone. :) <<It was that stupid image of Calvin peeing the Watterson never authorized that made him quit.>> Ugh, I've seen that stupid thing everywhere, as an automotive decal. And, usually, the sigil of some car company is on the recieving end of Calvin's attentions; I've seen both Ford and Chevy treated this way.

Less welcome is the apparent return of the Percent Sign Error. :/ Which coincides with Ask Greg's current inability to answer any questions. Which started right when Greg answered my question, so I now have a complex. :P

Killing off Angela? Well, if I do it, it'll be for some reason other than to simply punish Demona. If I want to punish Demona, I think I can do better than that. >:)

All newcomers> Welcome! Allow Robby to confiscate your sanity, so it won't get in the way of your creativity and intelligence. :)

Zath> Welcome back! :D

Finally, made it to this week. Ah, a new episode...

**SEEDS OF CHANGE SPOILERS**

<<Marjorie Hathaway came out of the kitchenette wiping her hands on a tea towel. "I'll have it for you in a minute, dear. It's Bubble and Squeak again, I hope you don't mind, but grocery money doesn't seem to go as far as it used to.">> What in the name of all darkness and light is Bubble and Squeak?! It sounds like a strip club. :P Hm...ppl getting mysterious letters, a shadowy figure in London with a pet crow...this could be interesting. :) So Goliath finally proposed. Heh...y'all are lucky I wasn't writing that. I'd have found a way to mess that up *very* creatively. >:) Hm...a grand council of gargoyles? I like it, I like it a lot. Oh, FINALLY we get that transcript of the Halloween party. YEAH! :D I believe that picture will cause more than a few ppl to hurt themselves laughing. :) <in awe> Xanatos...bought the theme park?! <helpless laughter> That is just too...too...*something*! :D

**END**

David G.> Looking for fics to read? Well, I highly recommend Merlin Missy's 'All Through The Night' and 'Forever' (despite small historical inconsistencies in the latter, which don't really detract from the story), and there are one or two halfway decent ones at my name link...

Cyrway> Welcome back! :D

Ed> <<Like, the writer knew the very last bit, or the way it should go, but was unsure about the path to get there making it seem clumsy.>> <blink> I am like that with each and every story I write. :}

Kathy> <<If you killed all the gargoyles and left everyone else then what would you call the series?>> Um...Gargoyle? :P

JFK Jr> Is it me, or is the media giving this a LOT more attention than it deserves? Not that I'm not sad that someone died, but really, this is *insane*. And not in *our* way (ie the good way) either. Oh well. And...well, the family's misfortune is most likely due to their lifestyle, but that's not a very interesting explanation, so I like to believe it's some kind of curse. :)

Green Baron> You're back too! Yeah! :) And congratulations on the birth of a new family member. ^_^

Earl Allison> You're back as well! We have a lot of ppl coming back lately. :)

Amy da Tigger> <<The subject no one seems to notice but I cannot seem to get out of my head: Iago and Hyena. Don't they JUST make the perfect couple>> I don't know, I always saw Hyena with Arthur. But then, I'm too stinkin' twisted to live. >;P

James Birdsong> <<Condoms are evil!>> Actually...Kaioto's right, they're only objects, and objects are only as evil as what they're used for. I happen to know that condoms are used for certain blood effects in movies, and well, that can't be bad. :)

Aaron> <<JFK was killed by the Illuminati as part of a ritual designed to bring about the end of the world.>> Gozer worshippers?

Jewel> Welcome back! Again! :D <<Arg. I hate downloading stuff. I'm trying to get my Linux box set up, and Wordperfect is flat out refusing to download--it just jumped for "100 to" to "79" done and informed me it now needs 25 hours to finish. It's done this the last 4 times I've tried to download it. Blarg.>> ACK. Have you tried the download manager GoZilla (www.gozilla.com)? It can resume downloads.

Everyone else who's come back> WB to you too! :D

Wow, lots of August birthdays. Let's bring in one big cake for y'all. :)

And this psychotic post has no end in sight! :P

Sabrina> Kewl pic. :)

Time travel> I like to think that 'History Is Immutable' only applies to travel via the Phoenix Gate. At least, that's the way it is in my fics. :) You know...wouldn't it be interesting if, as a result of an ancient fling between Brook and Meryt, Brook was one of his own distant ancestors...?

Airwalker> So...the 'real' future could be different from the Timedancer future? Oh, I like this a *lot*. Thanks for the marvellous loophole. >:) <<After all if history can be changed, then why not go back and make sure that the Wyvern Massacure never happens?>> Because, if changing the past can be done, it's so unpredictable that it *shouldn't* be done. I mean, if there hadn't been a Wyvern massacre, the survivors wouldn't have ended up in the modern day, and the world would be devoid of a rather important clan.

Oh, and happy birthday to whoever has one right about now. :)

It's getting late, I'm into my fourth hour of reading and typing, I'm starting to see little creatures gibbering just beyond the edge of my vision, $and I have yet to write my bit for the RP$. And yet I press on. :)

Whoever mentioned it> There's one other difference between Win95 and Win98: The former will play 'Star Trek: Borg', and the latter won't. <grr>

**RESUME RP!**

[In the skies over the Devastator, Toliana in the Ice Dagger now faces a horde of angry Pokemon. She fires a concussion torpedo into the center of the densest group of them, taking out fully half of them in one blow. The remainder of them split up to surround the ship, shooting off their various attacks and making escape almost impossible. Toliana: "This one's going to be rough, little dog. You take the controls, I'll be on the upper gun turret, and we'll both hope those things aren't as tough as they look!" Buick: "Woof!"]

**END RP!**
Wilek Nereus
Saturday, July 24, 1999 05:36:54 AM
IP: tnt-3-200-56k.portsmouth.zoomnet.net

Green Baron: Sure, some of the stories aren't true. I never claimed that all of them are true. My information did not come from gossip or anything like that. My information did not come from the tabloids or the damned Jerry Springer show. I get my information from sources that I've verified and know I can trust. Some of this information came from people I knew, people I talked to in person. So whether you believe it or not, I do know what I'm talking about.

SJ: I never said *most* priests were pedophiles! I said there's a significant number! So you just back right the hell off, bubba. Don't you accuse me of perpetuating stereotypes.
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 03:38:10 AM
IP: wire-9.koalas.com

Spike> Ostriches eh? Yeah you have to watch those buggers, they'll nip you any chance you get.

Tom Baker Rumors> While it was mebntioned before that he was in the running for Gandalf in LOTR I found out from the Scifi wire that he's also been considered for a part in an proposed Dungeons and Dragons movie....speaking of Doctor #4 in fantasy movies, I saw him once in a BBC production of the Narnia series. He played Puddleglump the Marshwiggle in "The Silver Chair" I don't know whether you might find it on video, but the whole series is worth watching...

Neat News about The Blair Witch Project> It seems that the movie has scared the other studios so bad that they are moving back the release of Mystery Men another week to give a wide berth to BWP's wide release next Friday. I guess when a movie makes $1.5 million on just 27 screens nationwide, it draws the attention of the big wigs...
Skippy The Klingon - [shakedwn@ultravision.net]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 01:53:01 AM
IP: 207.22.234.79

Yes that's it Sevarious Jr I'm very glad you know what I'm talking about.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Saturday, July 24, 1999 01:42:36 AM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Short post tonight. It's late, and a long day has finally come to a close.

Watched Mallrats again tonight.....that's still a funny movie, no matter what anyone says. Not as good as Clerks (which I'll watch tomorrow)....I did this in honor of the fact that Kevin Smith's DOGMA *will* be hitting movie theaters in October. I'm thrilled, I don't think Catholics will be.

Inspector Gadget: *sigh* No offense to those who enjoy it, but this movie represents all that I think is wrong with Hollywood. That's why I'm effectively boycotting this movie, as well as any other tv-shows-turned-into-movies/unnecessary remakes (like the Haunting. Blecch)/ unnecessary-and-tasteless sequels, unless of course I am *exceedingly* passionate about the film or genre. I feel....no, I know....that many original, fresh, wonderful ideas get turned down day after day in Hollywood so schmucks like Jan de Bont or Gus Van Sant can remake classics like the Haunting or Psycho, cause these dumb a-holes think said classics are "good, but not perfect" and they think they can improve them. Down with them all.

Good Books I've read recently: Well, I'm currently re-reading the LOTR trilogy so as to familiarize myself for when the movies come out (two year wait, okay, but it's summer reading anyway). Other stuff I check out recently were Kathy Koja's "Cipher" (very good, also *very, very* dark and disturbing), and Clive Barker's "Forms of Heaven" (3 of his original plays), and Nancy Collin's Sonja Blue collection.

Metallica: To all those who don't like the modern day Metallica, what would you prefer, freakin' Deff Leppard? I'm with Doug, Load and ReLoad were great albums. Thank *God* James and the boys finally moved out of the eighties, even if they have to put up with all the whiney "you sold out" BS. Any album by Metallica is a thousand times better than the lame-assed non-metal of today, such as Limp Bizkit or Kid Rock.

James: I believe the comic you are thinking of is Frank Miller's classic "Year One" work with Batman. If memory serves me, Selina Kyle was a prostitute who later became the Catwoman in those comics.

Pistoff: Yeah, most priests are pedophiles. Just like most Jews are greedy shysters, most blacks are criminals, and most latinos are unemployed freeloaders. And most atheists are evil.
I think you can see the stereotypes here.
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 01:14:50 AM
IP: 207-172-53-106.s106.tnt4.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

Thanks to everyone who wished me happy birthday. One more year till I'm 21 years old. well, I gotta go, see you all later.......
Dags - [Dagastino_2000@hotmail.com]
Saturday, July 24, 1999 01:06:05 AM
IP: 216.1.24.219

Hi, folks. I figured I should at least say Hi today, but I don't really have much going on right now.

Delphi> I'm glad you liked "Enemy of My Enemy." "Someone to Watch Over Me" (Episode 2) is finished, but the Fanfic archive is messed up, so I can't post it. I'm working on episode 3 now. The working title is "Hot Lead and Coldsteel." If you want, I'll e-mail you an advance copy of number 2.

Book suggestions, since somebody brought it up...
I finished Keeper of the King, by P.N. Elrod and Nigel Bennett about two days after Gathering 99. I really loved the blending of vampire mythology and Arthurian legend. I'm looking forward to more.

Sort of by accident, I ended up with a copy of the first book in the Gatekeeper Trilogy, part of the Buffy the vampire slayer series. I don't usually read books based on TV shows, but this one was pretty good. I had to scrape together some money after a major car repair to go buy the other two books.

In a related incident, I highly recommend a book called "The View from Saturday." I can't recall the author right now. You'll find it in the children's section of your local library or bookstore. It doesn't have gargoyles, vampires, or giant robots, but read it anyway. There are very few books that have ever touched me. This is one.

On the other hand, there's "The Bridge to Terabithia" (sp?) I can't think of the author of this one, either. I had to read it for my Children's Lit class in college. It's really good, but ask your therapist and/or suicide counselor before you read it.

I guess that's enough for tonight. Kyryn, don't get mad since I didn't mention Gargoyles. I used the word in one paragraph, and I did talk about my fanfics. :)
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Saturday, July 24, 1999 12:27:59 AM
IP: ppp02-508.algx.iadfw.net

Hey all,

Damn, I've got to stop these short hiatuses, hiatusses, hiati, hiatussesses...

Well, the Season Two finale was pretty good IMO, all things considered. Though the main source of conflict (Dracon and the Yakuza) seemed a little out of place, "Seeds of Change" was good overall. Not a cliffhanger as much as "Reprisals" was, but it did its job of making me anticipate the Season Three premiere. All in all I think that Season Two as a whole was written much better than Season One, and the illustrations just exploded in quality and quantity. Staff ppls, you deserve a pat on the back. And maybe a fistful of cash, but really, what's more easily transmissable in this medium? :)

***Spoilers for 'Arlington Road'***

I honestly don't remember if anyone's done a review of this movie here, but I just got back from seeing it and it was pretty darn impressive. It totally shatters the veil of safety we hold over our lives, and shows how easy it is to cross the line between privacy and security, trust and paranoia, desperation and sanity. "Disturbing" is a word I'd use to describe it. So is "frightening." Everyone in the theater left feeling a little less secure about their safety than they felt going in. It also showed how easily the authorities and the media can be convinced of a lie, how resourceful and just plain clever terrorists can be, and how doing what you think is the right thing may turn out to be the complete opposite...

All in all, a killer movie. Jeff Bridges, Tim Robbins, and Joan Cusak were all outstanding. The environment was extremely creepy, suspenseful, and dramatic. There was so much tension in the teather you needed a chainsaw to cut through it, but the filmmakers knew exactly how to release it; there was one point where everyone in the theater just jumped. Collectively. Myself included, and movies usually have *no* effect on me that way. Definitely a movie I'd recommend to anyone here.

***End spoilers***

==A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. - Sir Winston Churchill==
Steve Gooch - [Erebus642@aol.com]
Malverne, NY
Friday, July 23, 1999 11:59:04 PM
IP: 98cac804.ipt.aol.com

Coyote>> They've been running bits on "Inspector Gadget" on Disney for the last week or so, and you're just going to have guess as to what the Gadgetmobile was built FROM --- it's 8 different cars and they're all a patchwork quilt of various classic cars. Good to hear your review tho --- my son's determined to see the movie (whether Mom wants to go or not!)
Spike
Friday, July 23, 1999 11:32:40 PM
IP: ppp14-27.ght.iadfw.net

Aaron wrote - [Also the actress doing Jade is one Ming Na-Wen. Now why does that name sound farmiliar. Anybody know?]

Wasn't Ming Na-Wen the voice of Mulan?

This color is Sun Orange.



Jenniren
Friday, July 23, 1999 10:55:58 PM
IP: user-2ivf1ni.dialup.mindspring.com

RP WARNING!!
**Jigglypuff has set the heroes to sleep an dhe is writing on everyone's faces, incluidng soem interesting marks onthe Ravens and OJ. As he puts a pen on Rev. Attila, Attila wakes up since it is three AM, and sees a Pokemon drawing on him. Attila retaliates by etaing the Jigglypuff and then belching. Next, he notices it is three AM, so he meows very loudly waking everyone up.**
END RP for Now!!

Utopia> They are impossible to achieve, except for Heaven (if you believe in it). Such societies may appear Utopian, but are in fact Totalitarian and opressed, like in Demolition Man. Regrettably, we have many in our Government on the left and right who want to establish a Utopian police state. I'll settle for an unfettered free market, and the good and bad that goes with it. I also think we need less Government, not more.

Kathy> Good points about how times change. Too abd my last girlfirend was of the same mentality you pointed out as an example of the past.

Jenniren> LOL!! There are worse thinsg you can put in your mouth. Back in the forties, a truckload of condoms fell into the street, and my uncles did the exact same thing. My grandmother was quite horrified.

As fo rour desire for a royal family, the Kennedys are a sign of teh American dream, where the great-grandson of a penniless Irish immigrant became President, and where JFK's dad, though born to wealth, has to battle constant predjiduce from the WASP elite in Boston, being denied access to high soicety, because of his faith, and then to see his son become the first Catholic Preisdent. In addition, JFK was elected in one of the most prosperous economic times, and was a proud cold warrior, whose youth and charisma were symbolic of America as it ended WWII and was still in the fifties era to soem extent. People need heroes and many see the Kennedys as that. Also, like a dynasty, it has faded with a fat worthless drunk as its patriarch and wild lawless successors raised by Ted. Now, the family has become a bunch of spoiled rich brats, just like the British Royal Family :)

Jewel> So that was how Monica got pregnant :)
When Ted Kennedy dies, I imagine many will be holding big parties to celebrate :)

Happy Birthday to Kit, Dags, and Jaden. Happy late Birthday to Mandolin.

Pistoff> Soem of the stories aren't true. There are people who make up the stories to get money from the Church. The media also hypes up the stories for teh same reason scumbags elite liberals in the press tried to trash Mother Teresa. I hope you are also cynical about the sources for the information.

Warpmind> You're right, the Pope is a great man. It will be a terrible loss when he dies, and sadly, that may be soon.

Kaioto> I hope your sister feels better. Do you enjoy being 19?


Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
New Orleans, Louisiana
Friday, July 23, 1999 10:52:36 PM
IP: 98a9e619.ipt.aol.com

**enters the room, switching out the candles. Sits down in the big chair**

Fairly productive day today ... I picked up my programmable horn and my grandmother was taken off the respirator, so all in all it was pretty decent.

**SPOILER WARNING FOR "INSPECTOR GADGET!!"**

Went to see this movie after work today ... it sure helped to get me out of my pissy mood (see below for reason). The effects were great, and Matthew Broderick managed to *not* turn Gadget (real name: John Brown) into a complete moron like he's portrayed in the show. I liked the integration of some of the show's elements (the TV theme music arrangement used to open the film, Penny and Brain, their radios in the very last plot bit in the credits, Claw's parting shot at Gadget: "I'll get you next time, Gadget!"), and some of the in-jokes were pretty good, too (The Gadgetmobile reminding Gadget to buckle up because "after all, it's a Disney movie!"; Evil Gadget's Godzilla-like rampage through Riverton, complete with roaring and fire-spewing; the Henchmen Support Group, complete with Odd-Job, Tattoo, Tonto, Igor, Mr. T (the real one) and Jaws (ain't *nobody* but Richard Kiel as Jaws!).). The story was very interesting, kind of like "RoboCop" on laughing gas. :)
Only two things bugged me about this movie ... the length (it's only a little over an hour) and the fact that ... **deep breath** I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HELL KIND OF CAR THE GADGETMOBILE IS!!!! ARRRGH!!

**composes self**

Sorry. But 'tis driving me nutso! I can only pick out that it's some kind of mid-to-late '60s full size convertible sedan, but through all the modifications I can't tell what it is ... the front end (cute as it is) looks like a Lincoln Continental, but the back end looks like an Impala! **grumble**

Still, overall it's a good movie.

**END SPOILERS FOR "INSPECTOR GADGET"**

All CR birthdays: HAPPY B-DAY EVERYBODY!! **pulls out remotes and hands 'em out to all the birthday children in the room** Pick yer flavor when the Execution cake gets here. :)

Kitainia: Have fun at yer party ... don't do anything I wouldn't do!
(Then again, don't do anything I *would!* ;)

SJ, re: GFW Archive problems: Very good reason for this ... the last GFW crash produced everything in quadruplicate when it resolved itself ... something went funky when "Liberty or Death" was uploaded ... and additionally, an earlier crash of GFW deleted every story that had been posted after December 5th. Since December 5th was the first day Skydancer had posted any of my stories to the Archive, those ones she *did* post on the 5th (I believe it's the first eight, up to "Honor Above All", and "Spirits of the Green") were kept. Later, as the series continued, Sky posted three more trying to catch up ("Soulscape," "By the Grace of Oberon" and "Ark of Destruction"), but has yet to post the rest of them. Perfectly understandable, though, since I *do* have them already archived at my site ... my GFW space was meant to be a backup in case Geocities ever went down.

Silver Wood: Willkommen!

Spike: It could've been worse ... I recall once when I was a wee tyke (4, I believe) and went to the San Diego Zoo with my parents. We went to their petting zoo ... it happened to have an attitudinal goat who decided it'd be fun to eat a $10 bill right out of my dad's pocket!!

Cyrway: Hey, it's employment, and ya can't complain too much 'bout that. Now then again, when your employer screws up ...
Okay, here's the situation. Because of somebody's finger slipping off the wrong keys at the payroll department, my paycheck for next week is going to be microscopic. Reason why? They *accidentally* gave me somebody *else's* vacation pay!!
This normally wouldn't be a problem, my check would be voided and a new one issued. What *made* it a problem was that I have direct deposit ... and the mistake was discovered *after* the DD had been processed. So, they gave me two options ... either keep the money and have it deducted from my check next week, or have the *entire* amount withdrawn from my account, and then have a check cut to me.
I chose the first. Now it's not really such a bad thing ... the extra money put my account above $600. But the problem is that this occurred in the *first* place at all. Now I'm gonna feel guilty all friggin' week because I took some poor schlep's vacation pay, just because somebody's finger slipped.

**sigh** Ah well, c'est la vie. The good news about this whole problem, though, is that I'm getting closer and closer to the amount I need to refinish my Caddy in the base color, and ergo *that* much closer to starting work on my murals. :)

Cyrway again: Gen X? Kewlies! How much of the series do you have? (I've been collecting it since Ish #1 with that Godawful solid chromium cover.)

Christine: Right. **wink wink nudge nudge**

**sits back in the chair, focusing his nightly meditation once again upon the two candles' flames**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Friday, July 23, 1999 10:46:50 PM
IP: modem74.i-is.com

oh boy tought I looked fos spelling errors warped = wrapped



delphi - [cmiller@magiclink.com]
Twin Falls, Id
Friday, July 23, 1999 09:19:38 PM
IP: 207.14.195.118

GOOD BOOKS THAT ONE'S BEEN READING LATELY - I can recommend a few of these myself.

First, I've recently gotten started on Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. It's quite a delight, really - you could best describe it as being to fantasy what "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" series by Douglas Adams was to sci-fi. One or two books in the series may particularly stand out to "Gargoyles" fans: "Wyrd Sisters" (which I just finished reading) is filled with Shakespearean parody (particularly "Hamlet" and "Macbeth", with a bit of "King Lear") and has its own take on the three witches (human witches, not fay like the Weird Sisters, but still due to get involved in lots of unusual activities), and "Guards, Guards!" includes as one of the main characters a city ruler named Lord Vetinari, Patrician of Ankh-Morpork, who has a very Xanatosian atmosphere about him (as I got further and further in the book, I began to imagine his words being spoken as if voiced by Jonathan Frakes, in fact).

I've also been reading C.S. Lewis's Deep Space trilogy, "Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra", and "That Hideous Strength". "Out of the Silent Planet" I've talked about earlier. "That Hideous Strength" ought to interest "Pendragon" fans, as it makes Merlin into a major character, making him an ally for the protagonists against an Illuminati-like band of corrupt scientists who want to take over first England, then the world, through a form of subtle manipulation (and unwittingly serving the forces of darkness in so doing).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 23, 1999 09:15:58 PM
IP: 209-223-92-172.dialup-stl.primary.net

Hi everyone, I became so warped up in everyone's comment I missed the start of Farscape on Sci-Fi channel. Digesting everyone's time travel theories is boggling, although those messed up tree diagrams actually made sense to me Thanks Kaito

David G>> read your first ep of Freelance in the archives, two thumbs up. I liked the "mystery" of James past and went looking for your next ep, but couldn't find it.

Thanks for the book sugestion, I have not tried out some of those authors metioned.

I just read the fifth(I think its the 5th) book in Lisanne Norman's Sholan Alliance novel. Great books for seeing the interspecies relationships on personal and galatic levels. The story line works around the inavertant linking (telpathicly) of a Sholan(are evolved from cat-like species and in appearance look alot like Talon with no wings) and a human colonist on a colony world.
delphi - [cmiller@magiclink.com]
Twin Falls, ID
Friday, July 23, 1999 08:42:13 PM
IP: 207.14.195.115

(I kinda like this one - I think I'll stick with it)

Firstly, Happy Birthday to everyone!

Secondly, a favor for a friend. I finished editting a fic the other day and it's now released. Since it follows the TGS timeline I thought I'd drop a line here. For everyone wondering about Demona and Andrea... "Breakdown" by Madame Destine. But only if you're old enough to get into the Adult Archive it's rated N-17.

Have a good weekend all,
kathy
Friday, July 23, 1999 08:25:01 PM
IP: mail.avon.com

Uh, I will post later, NOW I have to party. Darn typos. Bye!
Kitainia
Friday, July 23, 1999 08:06:23 PM
IP: pool-207-205-237-117.dlls.grid.net

Ming Na Wen: IIRC, she played Chun Li in the Street Fighter movie (which was very entertaining, IMO. A great swan song for Raul Julia!). Also was the voice of Mulan in the Disney film of the same name. :)

Thanks to everyone who said happy birthday. I'm a year older and it feels great! I'll post again later now, have to get to my party. <Kitainia puts on THE MASK and zips out>
Kitainia
Friday, July 23, 1999 08:05:24 PM
IP: pool-207-205-237-117.dlls.grid.net

VISIT STATION EIGHT'S CR!

To everyone having birthdays, have a good one!

Silver Wood- Our determination to make TGS hasn't convinced Disney to do anything for one reason... We're working for free, out of love, and merely relasing stories with one or two illustrations. For Disney to renew the series, they'd have to pay tons of artists and pay for animation and voice talent and such. (Though an animated series is far, far cheaper and more cost and space effective to make than just about ANYTHING live action, which is why there's so much animation in Japan.) So its basically a matter of budget.

Galvatron- I'm just curious, were you once Megatron, or is that a different Galvatron?

Scott- DC won't alter their icons? Sure... Thats why they've changed Superman, Batman, Robin, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman in the last couple of years...

SJ- So McKellan got the part of Gandalf? Dang... Tom Baker woulda been perfect. Specially since he's aged a few years since Doctor Who...

Cyrway- Archie dropped the Turtles series because it was getting too mature? I always figured it was because the fanbase had dropped off tremendously... Utter shame, the turtles comic was THE best comic ever. Great characters, art, story, action, was actually educational without being blatant about it... If it weren't for the fact all my memories of it are at least 4 years old, I'd say it was just as good as Gargs... Better maybe... But um... Who was Moorcock?

Kyryn- Ah, I remember when I cycled through the colors trying to find a good one. The one I have right now is Rich Orange...

AAron- I know the actress who played Jade on Spawn was Ming Na-Wen (WHich does sound familiar) and not Sali Richardson, but in some parts she sounded so much like Elisa it was just funny next to Kieth David!

JEB- Nope, haven't noticed you like that book yet.
Robby
Friday, July 23, 1999 05:56:53 PM
IP: spider-we071.proxy.aol.com

Geez, now I'm really certifiably tasteless. I liked the Black Album too.

Today's image that says I have either too much free time, or not enough sleep, possibly inspired by Christine Morgan's Foxfire: Oberon as Elvis. He'd have a big red caddy with yellow highlights, just like his armor. Ditto for the jumpsuit. And then he'd have the Wierd Sister as underage groupies.

Later.

Aaron wanders off, humming "Down on the Corner"


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Friday, July 23, 1999 05:36:15 PM
IP: ppp-227.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

*walks in*

Blue Caeru> Hope you're back soon!

Green Baron> Congratulations on becoming a godfather. Just don't start making offers people can't refuse. ;)

Kaioto> Sorry to hear your birthday wasn't so great. Hope your sister gets better.
Rather fascinating time-travel theory, though. :) I like it. :)

Silver Wood> Welcome to the room. :)

Jewel> Forgot to mention this last post... WB! :)

Delphi> Have I read any good books lately? Yes, several, in fact. I've been reading lots of H.P. Lovecraft and related authors (August Derleth, Brian Lumley, etc.). Good, mind-warping stuff. :) I also read "The Man Who Folded Himself" by David Gerrold, which I'd been looking for for quite a while, and which also turned out to be good and
mind-warping. :) I've also got a stack of others yet unread, including more Lovecraft, Buffy novels, and P.N. Elrod's "I, Strahd."

Argent> Good luck on Driver's Ed. :) Yes, it will make you numb below the waist from all the sitting, and it's usually pretty dated stuff, but it's worth it in the end.

Kyryn> I LOVE Turtledove's stuff. Especially the Worldwar series and Guns of the South. He just writes it so darn well... I really should finish them.
Airwalker> The first book of Colonization is out, actually, seen it around here.

Coyote> <<This one has *my* personal favorite style of time travel story ... one which leads to the protagonist having a circular existence.>> Then you would absolutely love "The Man Who Folded Himself." :)

(Has anyone noticed yet I like that book? ;)

Utopias> Why do people dislike these? I mean, what's wrong with a future where everything's good and happy? Granted, it's never going to happen because humanity is incapable of it, but this is fiction! It's not required to be totally realistic, yanno.

Cyrway> Well, as long as the job is enjoyable, that's good. Glad to hear. :)
Nine-disk theory? And you write TF fic??? :)

Warpmind> Kill Hitler? Nope. Despite all the horrible things he did, I wouldn't want to risk making my future worse. Maybe someone even worse that was subordinate to Hitler, or never even joined the Nazis with Hitler as their leader, would wind up taking his place- someone that might be more effective and less prone to madness. Better the devil you
know than the devil you don't know.

*walks out*
JEB - [JEB215@aol.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 05:36:11 PM
IP: 98a62eb6.ipt.aol.com

Christine: Thanks for the permission. I'll post Voyage as soon as Chris has the archive working normally again, hopefully that will be soon. If anyone wants a copy of the story before I post it, they can always e-mail me or drop me a line in here. :)

Metallica: Their black album is one of my favorite CDs, and Reload as well. Anyone who's read my fics knows how much I like the Unforgiven songs. Maybe I'm one of the few fans who enjoy those albums. At least they succeeded with someone. <grin>

More later,
Doug - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Friday, July 23, 1999 05:28:17 PM
IP: pool-209-138-63-94.dlls.grid.net

Cyrway: LOL! I'd pay good money to see that ... if I had any money to spend...heh... O_o And I agree with you about Metallica. I pretty much gave up on them when I listened to The Black Album. There are maybe two or three songs on the entire thing that I can listen to without wanting to run to the nearest toilet. And to think I spent 15 bucks on that thing... uggh!

Christine: That was a good point, about why they were brought up if they were just gonna be dumped into the ocean again. Though I assume that the bodies were brought up to be examined to determine the exact cause of death, or something like that. The cause of death is kinda obvious, but there's probably some sort of procedure to be followed in these cases....

DarkAngel: LMAO! Actually, when I found out about JFK Jr, the first thing that popped into my mind was The Dead Kennedys. One of my all-time favorite bands. Jello Biafra is one of my heroes. :)

Aaron: Okay, any time you get to it is fine. Heh, the marvels of modern technology, eh? heheh
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 04:49:58 PM
IP: wire-28.koalas.com

Arg. I hate downloading stuff. I'm trying to get my Linux box set up, and Wordperfect is flat out refusing to download--it just jumped for "100% to" to "79%" done and informed me it now needs 25 hours to finish. It's done this the last 4 times I've tried to download it. Blarg. I'm beginning to think it's a Microsoft conspiracy (I don't have an internet connection at my house, so I'm downloading it using a relative's Wintel machine).
DC vs. Marvel: Vertigo, Vertigo, Vertigo. Marvel used to be cool (I grew up reading my big brother's old X-Men, and Illyana Rasputin was always my favorite character--when they copped out first by making her five again then killed her off, I was *mad*. Whoa. Wait. Geez. I just realized how much that's like what my character Christine. Sheesh...) I never liked DC much, since all of their characters seems very stiff and archetypal. Marvel's characters used to be good. Then Marvel started screwing over their writers but good, and things went downhill. And then DC picked up Vertigo. It's all about Vertigo--Constantine, the Endless, Spider Jerusalem, Jesse. No one's all good and no one's all bad. You can tell who the bad guys are, but sometimes, the good guys aren't that different from them.

JFK: heh, what can I saw, I'm morbid sometimes. And I agree with Christine's hairdresser--what the heck was the point of pulling 'em out of the ocean only to toss 'em back in? All they did was deprive the fish and lobster and crabs of a good meal because they cremated the bodies. They wanted to be bured at sea. And they were--when the plane crashed. And lest all y'all think I'm *really* a sick, heartless person (only on altenate Sundays), I'm sorry they died, but really, if they weren't Kennedeys, would anyone care? I'm only sorry they died because they were people--not because they were Kennedys.

Utopia: What the Gargoyles world really needs is another dystopia, like "Future Tense." Utopias are only fun in theory--it would get boring as hell after a while...

Guess what? I had a guy I met at a convention a week or so ago look at my website, see my doodles, and e-mail me, saying: "I took a look at your Web site today, and I can't wait to see what you pull off in the future, if these "doodles" were any indication. Hell, I'm about ready to ask for a commission. Interested?" I'm not sure if he's really serious or not, but hey, I'll ask, since if he is, I can buy myself and Mac and Photoshop and write it off as a business expense!

Ooh! Down to only 4 hours 59 minutes downloading now! Blarg.

jewel - [Jewel.Faulkner@alumnae.brynmawr.edu]
Friday, July 23, 1999 04:02:19 PM
IP: usr45.halifax.com

series=issue maybe. Man I hate typo demon. Okay posting over (GONE)
James Birdsong
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 23, 1999 02:28:42 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Eek okay some of it was right but I did read on a website that some comic book series of Batman #1 had Selena Kyle as a pimp
James Birdsong
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 23, 1999 02:27:58 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

KATHY - You wrote: [I would caution against taking individual glimpses of the future and attempting to paint an entire picture. Tons can change both in terms of positive and negative progress in a hundred and fifty or sixty years.]

Your absolutely right. It is possible that anything could happen in the next 160 years to bring about the events of that we have seen in REQUIEM.

My major problem with what we have seen is not that Demona is an outcast. Anything could have happened in 160 year to create that situation. My problem is that the response to her was uniform. Everyone she encountered except for her daughter - Angela - and a complete stranger - Benedick - rejected her. I can live with something happening and then the majority being suspicious, but EVERYONE? Every single Gargoyle? That just strikes me as being too unrealistic. Even at the peak of rejection, there would always be a few who wouldn't take the majority view. Especially among Gargoyles.

You wrote: [Angela wants them to get along, Demona saved his life and he's a nice guy. Is there a reason why at this point in time Broadway should be overtly hostile?]

I don't think that he would be hostile. What I do think is that he would be a bit suspicious and on guard when he is around her. As it is now, he's acting like he has absolutely no history with Demona. They were enemies for a long time. She tried to kill him a few times. Even though she saved his life, those facts are not easy things to forget.

His behavior in 2168 strikes me more as the behavior he should have today, and the behavior he has today should be the one he should have in 2168. Now he should still be suspicious, not completely trusting. In 160 years he should be more like he is now since enough time would have passed.


LAWRENCE - I think that Broadway wouldn't really notice anything about a connection between himself and Hudson upon looking at his first born Artus. I don't think that it's in his mindset to do that. What I do think is that Angela would immediately realise the connection between the two but I don't think that she would say anything about it.
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, July 23, 1999 02:25:50 PM
IP: 196.new-york-30-35rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Batman/Superman> I can't speak for Superman but the orignal Batman comics stinked. The villians were all wrong. (click link)
James Birdsong
San Diego, CA, USA
Friday, July 23, 1999 02:21:25 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Cyrway>I know ,you Americans arent able to have a "Scene" ,so i just wanna say that Mathematica is one of the alltime best Demo's ever made by Reflex... on C64...

...The C64 lives on!
Exin
Friday, July 23, 1999 01:58:38 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Aaron wanders in, wearing a white bodysuit and bowler, twirling a cane. He procedes to pummel DC mercilessly, before drawing the blade from the cane and slicing him up.

Welly, welly, welly, then me droogies. Lots to do, so let's get on with it.

Argent> Driver's Ed bites. See if you can get them to show Blood Runs Red on the Highway. I'm told it's a classic.

Doug> I think Cyrway explained the Load/Reload thing I was referring to.

Robby> It worked *once* I make no promises it will do so again. Also the actress doing Jade is one Ming Na-Wen. Now why does that name sound farmiliar. Anybody know?

Shogun Raptor> How do you play six degrees. Six alway, or as short as possible?

Pistoff> Crud. I'll try to rescan the pic in a different format and resend it.

Galvetron> I don't remember Dr Who taking the position that history was immutable. Just the opposite, as the Doctor showed on more then one occasion. Of course, even the Doctor got stuck in a predestination paradox once in a while.

Later.

Aaron wanders off whistling Ludwig Van's Ninth Symphony, Fourth movement.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Friday, July 23, 1999 01:55:14 PM
IP: ppp-32.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Hi all! Well, I finally remembered what I forgot yesterday! Here go all responses I didn't put down yesterday + some!

Zath- I like that idea about Thersites and Asrial becoming mates!

To all those who had a birthday, are having a birthday, or will have a birthday- A happy birthday! Hope you had/are having/will have a great and fun B-day!

Kaioto- sorry to hear about your sister, hope she gets better soon.

Time travel- I pretty much like the Gargoyles/TGS way the most!;)

Batman/Superman- I like the old Batman adventures- not the new ones. I never did like the Superman adventures though. I never read any comics, so I can't say whether or not I'd like them! ;)

Superman villains- I don't really like any of them. Batman villains on the other hand, I like most of them, with Harley Quin (sp?) on the top of favorites list!

SOROW- I agree about Brooklyn not participating in Demona's redemption, especially if he really does remember just about everything about his timetravels.

Silver Wood- I'm glad that you like this site! you'll have fun here, just don't forget to drop off your sanity at the door! -or at whichever place you got in here from!;)

JackaL- There is no way that I can see you as a snob- You would need to get a lot of practice into becoming one of those! ;)

Birth control- aside from what I said to Mr. Birdsong- I'm not participating in this discussion.

Whew! *wipes brow* that was a lot of replies!

Well, see ya all later!

Pheonix




Pheonix - [Sylsy@msn.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 01:49:49 PM
IP: 1cust254.tnt4.colorado-springs.co.da.uu.net

Oh man... I found the following joke on the 'Net, and while it is slightly tasteless, it had me LOL because the band talked about in the joke is one of my favorites. Anyhow...

Q. Which band from the 80's seems to be making a comeback this year?

A. The Dead Kennedys

Time Travel> There's a theory going around that particles don't exist in a set timeframe but rather are 'loops' or 'strings' that exist at various points in time 'all at the same time' so to speak. That means that every influence of future timetravellers has already been 'calculated', so to speak, in our present timeframe. So if you were to go back in time, you wouldn't change the future but in fact you would actually make the present come true. It was already decided that you would someday visit the past. Weird huh? It's similar to Gargoyles, somewhat. That's why Leo and Una already knew Goliath, because he had already visited them in the 1940s, even though he didn't know it because to him he would only visit them later.
DarkAngel
Quebec, Canada
Friday, July 23, 1999 12:43:53 PM
IP: cs-24.acdi-cida.gc.ca

Whoopsie, that one was mine; forgot to do all the top stuff. ; )
Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 12:41:57 PM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

Warpmind > go back in time to try and kill Hitler? No way, nuh-unh, not me. Because I _didn't_, so I _couldn't_, which would mean that such an attempt would _fail_ and they might catch me, and being tortured and put to death is not how I want to spend my summer vacation. Worse, I might go, fail, and somehow find out that I'd pushed him toward that path and then his deeds would be all my fault.

Ash > I'm admittedly no scholar of such things (right, G.B.?), but as I recall from reading "The Harlot by the Side of the Road," Onan pulled out because if his brother's wife had no sons, then the inheritance would come to him ... good old-fashioned greed. But then, it's all interpretation, isn't it?

Doug > got your story; haven't had a chance to read it yet but I know you know the guidelines and therefore I don't expect to find anything objectionable. If you want to post it early, go ahead; the next issue doesn't come out until September and that's a long time to wait. I know when I finish one, I want to post it right away. But sometimes I can wait, if there's good reason (right, Coyote? <g>).

Delphi > nope, I'm 32, and it's sometimes a little weird to realize that there are people in here who could be my children had I gotten an early start!

JFK Jr. > haven't been following this terribly closely, but the gal who cut my hair yesterday went on about it (captive audience). Her main point of contention seemed to be why did they bother salvaging him if they were just gonna turn around and bury him at sea? But really, compared to the Princess Di thing, the coverage of this has been quite modest, I thought.

Anonymous
Friday, July 23, 1999 12:41:11 PM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

***Kyryn peers back in***
(gold this time)

The Archive problem> Chris Rogers is aware of the problem and working on it. No idea when it will be fixed.

***Kyryn disappears***
Kyryn
Uvalde, TX
Friday, July 23, 1999 11:38:08 AM
IP: 168.37.239.86

***Kyryn sneaks in***
(okay sun orange this time)

Airwalker> Yep, I hadn't forgotten Guns of the South, but I couldn't remember the plotline at the time that I posted.

Argent> Dragonsbane sounds familiar? How about the name Morkeleb the Black, one of the main characters? As I said, it's a fun read.

Silver Wood> Welcome!

***Kyryn sneaks out***
Kyryn
Uvalde, TX
Friday, July 23, 1999 11:35:31 AM
IP: 168.37.239.86

Shauntell-- sent you an em!! :) Take a lookie!

Jenna
Friday, July 23, 1999 11:01:21 AM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Exin> I remember it, a long, long time ago, I used to play it in sixth grade. I feel old now...

DC vs. Marvel> That's probably why I wasn't boo-hooing at Superman's death...personally, I really liked three Marvel titles: New Mutants, Alpha Flight, and Generation X. (I'm not including Gargoyles). My favourite comics, though, were the Archie TMNTA and Mighty Mutanimals...though I wish they were still around, because, man, I would move to Mass to work one them, and, believe me, I could really spice those comics up...The real reason why Archie dumped the TMNTA series was because they were getting too deep with heaven and hell, and the in-between was beginning to get very grey, a la Moorcock. IE: Shredder showing some humanity and honour (TMNTA #25), Bebop and Rocksteady becoming more and more, how do you say, aware of life? (same ish), Raphael shooting Verminator-X in the face (CS-MNTA #66), Ninjara's Big Decision (Moon Eyes series, TMNTA #s 67-70), et al.

Okay, back to whatever I was supposed to do...

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 10:04:37 AM
IP: ddialup-w-128.mint.net

Oh, how about Emilio Estevez to Gargoyles?

...starred with Judd Nelson in "The Breakfast Club"
...who starred with Frank Welker in "Transformers The Movie"...

Okay, that one was easy...I'll think of a more complex one later...actually, I was going to go through the entire Star Trek series, though then I remembered that Frank Welker was Megatron, Soundwave, Wheelie, and some others in TF.

Speaking of which, I've surprisingly started my TF fic...if anyone knows of an archieve where to post it, let me know...Domo Arigato!

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 09:36:11 AM
IP: ddialup-w-128.mint.net

I say let's stick Birdsong in a room with the real life Outklaws. Swain (RL Mauser) could do his infamous two-hour "Why I'm Glad To Have An Average Sized Penis" report...that's before Donika (RL Monika) would run around sans-bra (and sans-shirt, for that matter)...

Yes, friends, the Outklaws are real. Be afraid...

So anyway, a couple of things...

TIME TRAVEL: I like the Morphail Effect, as described in Michael Moorcock's books. The Morphail Effect states that you can go back in time without any problems, but once you go forward, you've been eradicated from your own time and now exist in the future time. If you try to return, at best, you'll be thrown back into the future time or, at worst, the multiverse destroys you. In my theory (which is coming up in a Moorcock/Gargoyles crossover "A Preacher, a Sorceror, and a Biker go into a Bar..."), if you go forward using magic rather than technology, especially with the Pheonix Gate (which will not allow you to alter any time period, that's why the time stream seems "fixed"), the Morphail Effect is nulled out because, as the Pheonix Gate nulls out change, it also protects those who use it.

And I've still gotta upload the nine-disk theory...

Load and Reload: *starts to twitch, then pulls out a shotgun, screaming the lyrics to "Battery"* I have a theory that Sevarius has the real Metallica (including Cliff Burton) in his basement and cloned them, creating these alternative saps...Sorry, folks, but I'm one of those Metallica "Purists"...though Garage Inc was pretty good, except METALLICA CAN'T DO BOB SEGER'S COVERS!!! Astronomy, Sabra Cadabra/National Acrobat, and Whiskey in the Jar are the best covers I've heard since "Am I Evil?" and "Blitzkrieg". *Starts singing "No Remorse".*

Catholism: You'd think that after all this time, they would allow women to be priests. I just have problems with patriarchies. They don't like me.

Coyote and JEB> I'm working at Thomas College as an assistant Librarian. The hours are crappy, the pay sucks, but hey, it's something I enjoy. Going to get a PT clerical job for the mornings so I can still live at my apartment because my step-dad won't let me bring Caligo the Cat from Hell if I am forced to move back in.

Whew! Lemme tell ya, it's hot here! I can't wait until winter...

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 09:29:09 AM
IP: ddialup-w-128.mint.net

ATTENTION ALL LORD OF THE RINGS FANS!!!!:

This bit of casting has just bee CONFIRMED. In other words, this will HAPPEN. These people have got the part:

BILBO BAGGINS is now veteran actor Ian Holm.

And....pretty interesting....GANDALF *is* Sir Ian McKellen.

Cool, huh? I honestly now believe that the LOTR trilogy will be BETTER than anything Lucas is going to do with his prequel trilogy.
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 09:23:44 AM
IP: 207-172-117-211.s211.tnt12.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

**A host of Mandi's Gargoyles fanfic characters (and some canon characters) - Callista, Madison, Sheridan, Colleen, Cody, Dana, Nicki, Beth, Elisa, Angela, Demona, Diane, and Fox troop in, looking mildly irritated. Beth runs out and comes back practically dragging Lisa Davis in. There is a concerted grumbling from those assembled.**

If you don't do this, I'll NEVER get to your fanfics!!

**The grumbling ceases, and Mandi raises her hands as they begin to sing.**

Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday, dear Kit, Dags, and Jaden...

**Beth and Nicki go a bit Celine Dion on that line. Mandi gives them a look before the last line.**

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!!

**With that, they stampede out of the CR, still pissed at Mandi. Demona is the last one out, muttering something particularly unpleasant.**

Hey, there's got to be SOME use for these marauding fic ideas. Have a great day, you guys! I've got to get moving now...
Mandolin - [weird_web@hotmail.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 09:01:44 AM
IP: p1-37.netgsi.com

Marvel vs. DC > There are pros and cons to the different ways these characters are written.

Marvel portrays their characters as "people." They deal with everyday life and then put on the mask for a few hours. This allows for a better reader/character connection sort of along the lines of soap opera (sp?).

DC heroes, however, are symbols. They actually stand for something, thus turning them into mythological archetypical thingamajigs. DC focuses on heroic deeds. They will not alter a character (in the long-term) in favor of allowing people to jump in at any point. DC characters have a certain *immortality* to them, like Odysseus and Theseus (and the other "eus"es).
Scott Iskow - [smiskow@wam.umd.edu]
Gaithersburg, Maryland
Friday, July 23, 1999 08:42:22 AM
IP: 156.40.117.111

I think nobody of you has ever seen Mathematica on C64.. :): ...
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Friday, July 23, 1999 07:53:58 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

BATMAN/SUPERMAN VILLAINS - I certainly think that a lot of promising ones got watered down after their first appearance. Metallo, who's been mentioned in this discussion, is a good example: he starts off well, with the notion of a man trapped in a robotic body, never again able to eat anything, drink anything, smell anything, feel anything, and for whom none of the advantages of near invulnerability and superhuman strength are enough to make up for these losses. Then in his latter appearances, this angle of him gets lost and he becomes just another villain.

Truth to tell, I've sometimes suspected that the production team for "Batman/Superman" were more concerned with adapting as much of DC Comics to the small screen as they could than they were with actually setting up a good story arc.

TIME TRAVEL - I go with the "Gargoyles" approach in my own tastes, and was using it in my personal fiction before "Gargoyles" even came out. (One advantage of that was that I was better able to understand the Archmage's time loop in "Avalon Part Two" as a result of it). The novel that I've been working on for years now takes just such an angle.

I might add that I hope to, somewhere in the novel, include a remark on going back in time and changing history with the attitude of "Even if it was possible to do that, it would still be wrong. It's an admission of defeat, an attempt to take back a bad move in a game of chess. When you try to change the past, you are saying that you have given up any hope of improving the present."
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 23, 1999 07:38:23 AM
IP: 205-242-191-104.dialup-stl.primary.net

Well, I'm still catching up on the room, and I don't have anything to say about any of the recent episodes that hasn't already been said several times, but I did find one thing I thought I'd comment on. I noticed several posts from early in the week speculating on Asrial's fate. I know it's been said that she never takes a mate, but I always had visions of her getting together with Thersites. I couldn't see them having a wild passionate romance or anything like that, but I could easily imagine them drawing together out of mutual loneliness when the rest of their generation paired off, and that could lead to the formation of a close friendship, although probably not true love. Their personalities are even relatively well matched. Neither likes to fight. They're both intelligent. And Thersites would certainly appreciate any labor-saving devices Asrial happened to invent.

I'd also like to announce that I've added a few pictures to the gallery on my web page, including a photo of what the *real* Kitty looks like. I also got tired of waiting and put up the two illustrated quotes I have scanned (Does anyone know when the official illustrated quote page will be up? Is anyone else even still interested in this?). I have a couple of other illustrated quotes finished, but while I now own a scanner, it's defective (something's wrong with the drive mechanism so it won't scan anything wider than 2 inches, which is why the photos have such lousy cropping, and it has a deep scratch in the glass) so I need to return it and wait for them to send me one that works.

**Zath looks at the clock and blinks** Wow, where does the night go? So much for my plan to go to bed early get back in sync with the rest of the USA. Oh well, sleep is overrated anyway. Heh heh heh... I've gone from keeping gargoyle hours to keeping Demona hours (stay up all night, let out an earsplitting shriek at dawn, and then stay up all day too)...

Zath - [<-- clickie clickie]
Friday, July 23, 1999 07:13:59 AM
IP: ns1-09.viptx.net

Hi all!!

Yes It's the weekend at last!!!

Kitainia/Dags/Jaden:Happy Birthday!!*Hauls out a large birthday cake on a trolly*

Kaioto:Sorry to hear that your birthday sucked and I hope that your sister feels better soon,oh and happy belated birthday*hands Kaioto a slice of cake*:)

Time travel:Ugh!! time to get out the headache tablets:)personally I always liked the Gargoyles type of time travel,not so many holes.

SilverWood:Welcome!

Birth control:I think I'll keep out of this one.

Goodnight all!!
Xanathar
Melbourne, victoria, Australia
Friday, July 23, 1999 07:00:37 AM
IP: 203.29.192.74

Normally I just come in here to pitch the Gargoyles Collectible Card Game I'm developing...but this time travel thread has engaged my interest, because I've read so much sci-fi on the subject. A good book to read dealing with many of these time-travel issues is "The End of Eternity", by Isaac Asimov, one of sci-fi's most prolific writers. It envisions a group of people living in a strange place called Eternity, generated by a Temporal Displacement field; they live outside the timestream, and have the ability to enter it, and by finely manipulating physical events, change 'future' history (though for them, all time is treated as the present). While this is the setting of the story, certain incidents occur to one of these people living outside time that changes his perception of reality, both inside and outside of Eternity. A fascinating book, and as I say it concerns itself with many different ideas concerning alterations in the timestream.
As for my personal preferences, while I like the "Back to the Future" version of time travel well enough, I have in recent years come to admire the take on time travel proposed by Babylon 5, Doctor Who, and Gargoyles--that history is immutable, and no matter how you think you may be altering the timestream, events work out in exactly the way you remember them happening. It means there is no way to "fix" time by messing around in the past (another interesting issue discussed in the aforementioned book), and thus history is only what those of us living within it can make of it.
I could go on at greater length, but I'll spare you any such tirades (it is, after all, very late...).
The Gargoyles CCG is coming (I had to say it)!
Be seeing you...
Galvatron - [tbramfeld@hotmail.com]
Near A Lake, IN, USA
Friday, July 23, 1999 02:45:01 AM
IP: molybdenum.helios.nd.edu

Kaioto: Oh, if what I said was soooo inaccurate, then why does it happen so often? Maybe I'm overly cynical, but I've known people who have been victimized in this fashion, and I've heard so many similar stories that I can't even begin to count them all. Obviously this isn't true of *all* priests, but there's a significant number who unfortunately fit this description perfectly. Sorry if you were offended, but I call 'em as I see 'em. As for what I said being "just plain trash," well, as I said, it happens often enough that what I said isn't "trash" at all. And I wasn't trying to be funny, either. I wasn't making it into a joke. I was serious when I said it. My views are based on the facts as I see them, I don't say things just for the sake of pissing people off. So take offense if you want, but as I said, I call 'em as I see 'em.

As for your comment about us being omnivores and hunters: Yes, being a vegetarian is unnatural. Humans evolved with the ability--in fact, the *need*--to eat meat. Our bodies require certain nutrients that come from meat. Obviously we get some of what we need from vegetables--otherwise, we wouldn't have a need to eat them--but meat is also necessary to a human's diet. After all, if humans didn't need to eat meat, we would never have wanted to in the first place. The desire to eat meat is hardwired into us because we require it. Those of us who do eat meat don't do it just for the pure hell of it. If people refuse to eat meat, that's their decision and I won't try to change their minds, and I won't condemn them for it...but I just don't think it's healthy.

Also, your comment about "fornication"--I am sick and tired of people calling it fornication. As if sex is something bad or evil. "Fornication" sounds like something people should be ashamed of doing. That's one of the reasons I have problems with religions--because so many of them try to teach us that sex is "wrong." There's nothing wrong with sex.

Actually, this reminds me of something I read once, about the origins of the word "masturbate." I don't remember if the root word is Greek or Latin, but I remember the definition: "To pollute with the hand." Pollute?! Sheesh! The guy who decided that one probably whacked as much as I do, only he never admitted it.

Anyway, back to my original point. People who are sexually repressed will develop problems somewhere down the line. The same can be said of anybody who keeps any feeling bottled up inside until it explodes. People who repress themselves will sooner or later erupt, as a general rule (there would be exceptions, I suppose, but not many). That's why we had kids putting on trenchcoats and shooting up their school (not to mention making things difficult for those of us who wear trenchcoats just because we like the way it looks). That's why we've had so many postal employees shooting up the post office. People who find a harmless way to vent once in a while, such as just talking about things and getting it out in the open, will be a lot happier and probably live longer than people who keep it bottled up (and most likely they will kill a lot fewer people than they would if they kept it bottled up). Same goes for sex. I've gone for eight years without doing it--not for lack of trying, either--and you've seen what an @$$hole I am sometimes. If you're saving yourself for marriage, that's your decision and I don't look down on you because of it, but I sure don't understand it. For one thing, you're going on the assumption that you'll get married someday. But suppose it doesn't happen, for whatever reason? What then? I'm not trying to tell you what to do or what not to do, all I'm saying is that I simply don't understand it. If it works for you, that's great. But it just doesn't work for me. Again, sorry if you're offended, but I call 'em as I see 'em.

By the way, sorry about your sister. I hope she makes a speedy recovery. And happy belated birthday. May the days ahead make up for the sorrow you experienced yesterday.

Aaron: I got your email, but the picture didn't come through. When I opened it, all I got was a big blank square. O_o
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 02:16:28 AM
IP: wire-18.koalas.com

Last post for a week, guys.

Time Travel: Way I figure it, time travel to the past will be impossible, because the past is set. However, to the future... The future has not happened yet, so the traveller would most likely only visit the most probable future timeline, but be able to return to his point of origin afterwards (i.e. the most likely future temporarily becomes the present for the traveller until he heads home) without any actual damage caused to the timestream. And, with this possibility, it would also be impossible to bring something from the future, because when trying to take it back in the time machine, or whatever, you would face the unpleasant experience that whatever you try to bring was probably not made at the time of origin, thus the item will disappear when passing beyond its point of creation. HINT! Do not buy an entire wardrobe in the future. Food, okay, but you mya just as well forget about the rayguns right away.

Robby: So, most of the people in here are Mensa candidates? Well, I guess it *is* true, then. The practical value of intelligence is severely overestimated in today's society ;)

Well, gotta get some breakfast before I run to the bus stop, and venture forth where no (sane) man has gone before... it'll be a blast. (Blast it)

Until next Friday, guys. Don't refrain to give me messages, though, I'll check'em all before I post again (Ourgh, more work!)
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Friday, July 23, 1999 02:06:22 AM
IP: mp-217-229-129.daxnet.no

Howdy Folks!!
Jenna> It's okay on the story. And I agree with what you say about Goliath not being Niave. He's optomistic and intelligent. *HUGS!*
Also, while I was in here, I thought I'ld comment on the fact that killing Angela would be very bad. She needs to live, for both Goliath and Demona's sake. Demona's most of all.
And. . . no more chit - chat about condoms and sex. I know there is a thing for Freedom of Speach, but this is a gargoyles based comment room, for TGS. I think we could do without that stuff.
Discussing JFK Jr. is okay, but rather boring. I'm more concerned with other things right now than him. Yes, it's tragic, and I'm not without compassion. He's just not my favorite person. I was really sad when I learned Deforest Kelly died though. THat was REALLY sad.
Todd> I like your statements on the differences between Batman and Superman and Gargoyles. They are all very true.
Anyway, I"m done for now. Later all!!
Shauntell - [sgargoyle9@aol.com]
Friday, July 23, 1999 01:29:14 AM
IP: spider-wj074.proxy.aol.com

****BEGIN RP!!!****
Jaden finally regains consciousness.
"Oh man, that's something not to be done twice." he manages to sit up and look around. "Where am I...and where is that burnt hair smell coming from? Oh yeah from me."
****END RP!!!****

Glimmer-You are now entering the Twighlight Zone.

Time Travel- I've been thinking about this ever since I saw Back to the Future and I've come up with a lot of different theories and no current way to prove it. I've been thinking so hard about it...wait. 3...2...1...BOOM! (top of skull shoots off and smoke rises from brain)

By the way, a few weeks ago someone had a link to a really cool movie site. If you know, tell me because I really liked it but forgot to bookmark it. Thanks.

See ya later!
Jaden
Jaden - [jaden12@hotmail.com]
Los Alamos , CA
Friday, July 23, 1999 01:25:11 AM
IP: pm1-2.vpop1.avtel.net

My personal Favorite is the Austin Powers Theory of time travelling.

When you suddenly go crosseyed thinking about it, have some British guy tell you to sit back, relax, have fun, and try to enjoy the ride.

Tripp
Forrest - [fdavids@clemson.edu]
Friday, July 23, 1999 12:19:57 AM
IP: 206-74-91-147.generic.clemson.edu

Skippy>> We didn't make it out to the Creation museum, because we were too worn out from playing in the river all day. For those of you that don't know, Glen Rose is the home to the Dinosaur Valley State Park where you can follow actual dinosaur tracks along the banks of the Paluxy River. Very cool place to take kids and we plan to go back when the boys are bigger so we can tackle the more difficult hiking trails.

We also went to the neighboring Fossil Rim Wildlife Park where an ostrich tried to eat my husband's finger (while he was trying to take a picture) and a giraffe licked our car window. Eeeeeeeeeeuuuuuw -- slimy!

Toku>> No offense meant, none taken -- merely an exchange of points-of-view. *laughs* I'm being to see why fanfic bothers Greg now. I keep a tight rein on my own characters but I don't have that kind of control over the ones I developed for TGS and I'll admit it *does* bother me. But it would bother me MORE if I didn't say anything. It's not good to bottle things up.
Spike
Friday, July 23, 1999 12:16:07 AM
IP: pppt05-252.ght.iadfw.net

<----- "You could look as well as I do if you don't mind a little eating disorder."





Sorow: <<My family has a *long* history of military obligation and I'm very proud that you wish to dedicate your life to God and country!>> My family has been almost the opposite of yours in regard to the military. My parents want me to join the National Guard instead of the Marines. I know it's because they're concerned for me and I appreciate that, but I got to lead my own life. The fact that they grew up in a post-Vietnam War environment doesn't help much either. I think that the only person in my family that willingly entered the service in the past 50 years was my cousin Keith who was a Marine in Desert Storm. The rest were dogfaces and draft dodgers. It's not that I believe that people should fight in a war that they don't want to get involved in, but it's not exactly something to be proud of, either. A lot of this started when we saw "Saving Private Ryan" as a family. I saw it as a brutully honest film about the horrors of war, and I had alot of respect for all those people between the ages of 17-22 who fought to save the wourld. My parents saw it as an opportunity to go nuts.

WARNING! RANT! OFFENDING PEOPLE (except Pat Robertson and Rosie O'Donnel :) AND STARTING A FLAME WAR IS NOT INTENDED. THESE ARE SOME THINGS THAT I NEED TO GET OFF MY CHEST.

I don't to go into a rant, but... :)

Alot of it goes back to the post-Vietnam environment. Don't believe me? Just look at films and media today. Compare the all-too-human characters in SPR to the stoned, pot smoking, village burning soldiers in "Platoon." Both were excellent and honest films, but some of the "grunts" in Platoon were portrayed almost to the point of villinism. I agree it was a lousy war and I don't think we should have gotten as involved as we were, but that's no reason to disrespect these people.

We've lost a sense of national pride in America. Police are excessively criticized for their mistakes and accidents and people no longer vote because they think that their vote doesn't matter. Those people who use that George Carlin excuse that they solve their problems by not voting need to start taking responsiblity. People get lazy and then lunatics like Pat Robertson and Rosie O'Donnel take over and we lose our Rights.

As one of my co-workers named Duane had once put it, "These days, if you burn the American flag or wear a swatsica (sp? the Nazi symbol) it's considered a political or fasion statment. What would they do if I decided to burn one of those gay pride quilts (I personally do not approve of this action)?"

END RANTS!

Katio: Interesting theory regarding time travel. Although I don't understand the actual math very well, I am quite familiar with the concept.
Tim Phipps - [dtkphipp@pionet.net]
Friday, July 23, 1999 12:15:32 AM
IP: s21-onawa.pionet.net

Robert Carlyle? He was in Trainspotting, and so was Ewan macGregor, I guess the old show biz saying applies here: if at first you do succeed, do it over and over and over again
Superman villains> oddly enough, my favorites had little character development but are still pretty cool: Lobo (the Czarnian, not the new pack leader although having Supes' Lobo as the pack leader would be VERY interesting)
Darkseid (the guy is like Xanatos, NEVER loses his cool, well when he does, it's not a major rant, he just gets angry, punishes/kills and underling and it's back to business as usual) and most of all: Mr. Mxyzptlyk aside from the name, I just like Gilbert Gottfried's take on him
Demona's redemption> forgot the whole brooklyn thing, but that'll be in there as another vendetta she has to bridge, although making peace with the Canmores is beyond all hope, none of them would reconcile with her, well maybe Robyn but I doubt it, that's even rarer than a Macbeth reconciliation.
shogun raptor
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:57:57 PM
IP: miami-trans1.firn.edu

Begin RP
*as the trio stooges take on the annoy-yu squad, Lexry whips out a violin and begins to play the gargoyles theme song remixed to "pop goes the weasel" and Broadly goes crazy and makes mincemeat of Joey, Felicity and Tori as his eyes glow while he shouts "woob! woob! woob!"
meanwhile, Shogun and the others are battling the remaining annoy-yu squad members to a stalemate
"You don't scare me mcbeal!" yells shogun, "I've dealt with much worse, like the time I stopped that psychotic baker from creating a city-destroying souffle'"
the pseudo-anorexic waifish lawer glared at him
"That was the Tick you moron!"
Shogun was unscathed
"well what about the time I almost stopped the chair-headed madman from writing his name on the moon!"
"that was also the tick you ridiculous reptile!"
"well you sure weren't as bad as the time I took down the mayor who had turned into a giant snake from ruining my graduation from high school!..wait, don't tell me that was the Tick as well!"
"Actually, that was Buffy"
"was is the opposite word, Miss Dancing baby! my buddy Abel just stolen the aforementioned vampire slayer's heart....and made a meal of it!"
it was at that moment the haunting song of jigglypuff began to affect the deadly seven, annoy-yu squad and Saban, First Flypside fell, Then Ally Mc Beal, then Fenrir, then the Olsen Twins, then Shogun and Leann Rimes, finally, Abel Fell, followed by Hemmorhage, his mutilator fly and finally, largo, strangely enough, Doc Congo was not affected
"Hmm, interesting, must be my total lack of organic matter"
Doc Congo looked on in horror as the throngs of borg drones made their way toward the deadly seven and their one remaining awake member
"OVER HERE!" shouted Saban
*pause RP*
Time Travel: I've seen three basic story arcs surrounding this subject, the first is the "star trek" type arc. wherein travelling back in time to prevent something is the very event that sets it in motion, also known as the Mobius loop if I am not mistaken
The second is the X-men arc mentioned before, or as I prefer to think of it, the terminator arc, wherein someone is sent back in time to prevent an event and someone else is sent back to ensure that event takes place, often by means of assassination
the third arc is the one wherein someone attempts to stop their own death, and as a result immutably changes the fututure, they must then go back and prevent the prevention of their own death, which often leads to the space-time continuum rupturing in most cases, then again, that's where the whole multiverse principle comes in, wherein every possible outcome of a decision happens in different universes, but my head has begun to spin dealing with this topic, so I shall end it
American Pie> I'm gonna keep this short n' sweet: They say it was this summer's "there's something about Mary"
I saw "mary" this movie sure wasn't any "Mary" by any stretch of the imagination
Demona's redemption> I say she goes on some kind of quest with Goliath and Elisa in order to save the human and gargoyle races, and most importantly, to save Angela, eventually in some way she would have to put aside her grudge with macbeth in the interest of mutual survival, in a sense the Unseelie war was like that in some respects, just not enough.
one more thing...
George Carlin to Gargoyles....GO!
Carlin was in "Bill & Ted's Excellent adventure" with Keanu Reaves....
Who was in "Speed" with Dennis Hopper...
Who was in "Super Mario Brothers" with John Leguizamo....
Who was in "Romeo and Juliet" with Leonardo Dicaprio....
Who was in "Titanic" with David Warner...
Who voiced the Archmage on Gargoyles.
*Resume RP*
Quickly, Doc congo Grabbed the slumbering Deadly seven mercs and high-tailed it back to the "Original sin"
Realizing he would need help he powered up the ship, lifted off and headed for the one place he could find warriors that would not be effected by Jigglypuff's song, Seconds later(thanks to the miracle of faster than light travel and the on-board chronorift generator, the Original sin landed, followed by a blood-red harrier jump-jet, as they landed, the harrier transformed into a large robot and Doc exited the sin followed by a half vampire bat/ half daddy-longlegs, the creature shouted "Blackwing....terrorize!" and assumed a humanoid shape
And together, Congo, Blackwing* and Firewater* prepared for the onslought
**END RP**

*Blackwing and Firewater are creations from my Beast Wars fanfoic and Transformers G1 chatroom
shogun raptor
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:47:02 PM
IP: miami-trans1.firn.edu

Spike> Out near Glen Rose? You didn't happen to visit the Creation Reasearch Institute? Carl Baugh and his crackpot theories on creationism are quite a laugh riot from whati've heard...especially the alleged human foot that would have had to have come from an 11' giant...

Delphi> Books? Can't say I've read anything new recently, but I can recommend the Mile Vorkosiagn series by Lois McMaster Bujold especially "Memory" (though it helps if you have read the whole series)

JFK Jr.> I've been able to avoid most of the media coverage, and I'll be fine as long as Elton John doesn't do another "Candle In the Wind" reprise for the occasion....

Demona> One of the things that might further her reform might be Broadway and Angela providing her with a Grandchild. I can just imagine her doting on the kid and spoiling them rotten :)

ICQ: If anyone want's to exchange numbers, feel free to e-mail me....
Skippy The Klingon - [shakedwn@ultravision.net]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:11:02 PM
IP: 207.22.234.106

I want to say that this is the best site in on the WWW and it has brought all the talented here and there talents are being desplayed, it shows that we really like the searies and yet they dont make another one.....I wonder why that is?
Silver Wood
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:08:04 PM
IP: cf1000.win.bright.net

hello everyone
Silver Wood - [BrooklynJ@hotmail]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:04:38 PM
IP: cf1000.win.bright.net

Quick responses tonight. As soon as I have time, I'll start working out a new Obnoxiously Long Post. A couple of comments the past few days have given me more ideas about what might lead up to 2158. This one's going to be really theoretical, since I have very little evidence to work with.

Airwalker> I pretty much agree. I thought from the begining that the negative reaction Demona found in the future might be largely in her mind. I'm still thinking about the Demona as Folk Hero to the New Olympian gargoyles thing. I can see it either way, and I'm trying to work out the various factors.

Doug> Glad you liked the stories. I'm working on number three now. James' past will be expanded upon, but slowly. Part of my point in writing the series is to explore his character. "Hot Lead and Coldsteel" does have another big clue, possibly two.

Oh yeah, Your stuff is next on the list of things I'm going to sample. I'm reading Christi Smith Hayden's stuff now. (I think I got that name right this time) If you have a prefered reading order, e-mail it to me, and I'll read the stories in that order.

There was something else, but darn it, I can't remember what it is right now. Maybe tomorrow.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:02:10 PM
IP: pppa95-fortworthc12-2r5202.saturn.bbn.com

Lawrence Stone- Hudson suspects Broadway is his son, but it does not matter to him, he fully embraces the "entire clan is the entire rookery's parents" ideaology, and he thinks of the entire trio like his sons. Greg Weisman's said as much himself.
Robby
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:01:20 PM
IP: spider-te051.proxy.aol.com

Time Travle> Not going to get into this.

Demona in 2168>I do not know way that the future Clan would see her as a outcast. She did nothing to the future Clan that we know of or to hurt them. I to would think that the New Olympian Clan would probably like her. She stayed away from the humans for a thousand years and they stayed away from them for two thousand years. Maybe the Clan in china well look at her with kindness because they isolated them selves from the humans but we do not know their past with humans.

New Topic> By the year 2018 when Artus hatchs and when the Clan can see what Broadway and Angelas baby they see that he looks like Hudson and he has the same skin color as hudson but not the same skin color of his parents but ofcours Artus well have little of his parents looks. Anyway if hudson is still alive in 2018 most likely the Clan well look at him and then the baby. so probably the Clan well figture out that Broadway is Hudson son and Broadway and Angelas baby is his grandson. Or did he already know that Broadway was his son but never told him. Because Broadway skin color was the same color and same horn tape as Hudsons mate. I think this would be a nice future Timdancer epiosd. What do the rest of you think.

Gwenyveres mate> Do any of you you think that the Gargoyle named d'artagnan in Crossroads part 1 could be her mate? I sure do.
Lawrence Stone - [craft_celtic@yahho.com]
Chillicothe, Ohio, USA
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:50:17 PM
IP: chil-ras2-1-cs-20.dial.bright.net

Mandolin> HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Lots of love and laughs!

No Spoilers--- The only thing that I feel is missing from Demona's redemption or whatever you call it is Brooklyn's participation. We know that Brooklyn no longer feels hatred towards Demona, but why doesn't he admit as much to her? And I don't think that Demona feels absolutely no remose whenever she sees him or his family. If she wants to make amends with the clan (pretty much has to with everything going on) then she needs to heal old wounds! Personally, I feel that these two need to sit down and have a serious talk... without laser rifles :)

Bed... sleep... yadayadayada... OKIloveyoubyebye!
SOROW
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:44:20 PM
IP: usr12-dialup252.mix1.irving.cw.net

Darn. All my diagrams got screwed up by the spacing :P So much for visual aids, eh?

Spike: Looking back on what I said, I don't want to leave a bad impression mistakenly. I found Richard to be a beautiful and moving Everyman character. Of course, I guess I find something wonderful inside people in general. I guess I just felt like he could be so much more than just cast aside back into a mundane existence. In him, I saw the chance for an average guy with an exceptional heart to do something very special (not that he hasn't done a lot already). He probably does deserve a peaceful existence, which I hope he has at the end of my story, but I also think he deserves the opportunity to rise above being tossed around in the waves of the deeds of "greater" men. I think Richard deserves an opportunity to do something significant on like a Xanathos or Goliath scale, just to prove that it isn't destiny, but what is inside that makes men great … then again, maybe I just didn't want to see him fade away now that his brother was out of the picture.

I do, however, respect your opinions and your insights for all the work you did with him. I'm also very happy that you just said you wouldn't read it as opposed to telling me I shouldn't do it, or was doing it all wrong. You have already been more than kind. Thank you.

Doug: Hey, where are you two on ICQ? *L* Come out and play.

Toku Kaioto
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:19:51 PM
IP: 1cust143.tnt2.brockton.ma.da.uu.net

Kaioto: Sorry your birthday went terrible, hope your sister gets better real soon.

Superman Villains: I was disappointed with Brainiac too. Metallo was interesting until the plots with him started getting basic "I want to kick Superman's butt" and little else. <sighs>

Fanfic Archive: I don't know what's going on, hope it's fixed soon. In the meantime, I finished "Voyage" (it's funny how my writer's block went away right after posting in the CR. :) Christine has been sent her copy for Avalon Mists, hopefully it will pass her critical eye. I haven't posted the story yet for two reasons. One, the archive problems worry me, and two, I don't know if I'm supposed to post a story that's gonna be in AvMists before the issue with it comes out. If anyone wants a copy, you can e-mail me and ask. I might send you one. Will post more later.
Doug - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:15:35 PM
IP: pool-207-205-236-242.dlls.grid.net

Well, yesterday was a pretty poor birthday. My sister had a relapse and had to have medication and several spinal taps these last few weeks. I caught extra flak at work all day because it was my birthday. A nice sentiment, but not the right day for it. Still, today was a lot brighter. I got a nice package in the mail for a certain someone in Wisconsin. :)

The Pope: I would like to point out something a lot of Catholics I know in my own family and community are ignorant about. Papal Infallibility is not something that the Pope just gets to carry around with him and be right all the time. The Pope is a man, and even the Church acknowledges that fact. The entire, "Handed down from God" edict thingee is so rarely used it isn't even funny. The last time I checked, the Pope has to be sitting on St. Peter's throne in the Vatican and hold a ceremony and all this other hyping hoopla in order to speak the absolute word of God to people. Generally, the Pope just tries to lead in wisdom and action, rather than commanding people.

Pistoff: <<Show me a guy who never has sex, and I'll show you a priest who took a vow of chastity who could at any moment pop a rivet and molest the nearest altar boy--assuming he hasn't already done so. >> Dude, people have self-control and purpose that can outweigh the mating urge. As a person who was once planning on joining the seminary, and is now saving himself for marriage to someone very special, I take offense. That kind of talk is just plain trash. Even as humor it is poor. That hurts. :( Apparently, you definitely offended Ash. He gets the impression you are a bigot. I don't think that is true, but I certainly can't find anyway to defend what you said myself. Perhaps an explanation or clarification might help?

<<To try to suppress that is to go against nature.>> We are also omnivores and hunters. I really don't think that means every militant vegetarian I've met is preaching an abomination or repression. People who believe it is wrong to harm animals to get food and clothing certainly are going against natural order, but what the heck is wrong with that? They don't want to see animals get hurt. In the same respect, those who have thought through human sexuality and come to realize that fornication even with protection is something negative don't want to see people get hurt. Just because something comes naturally doesn't make it right or amoral. I will however, make that point that just because you believe something is wrong does not mean you can suddenly go around taking away people's rights and telling them simply, "Don't do this. It is evil." At least in my Church they try never to teach a "do not" lesson without reasoning so people have some sort of chance to grasp the humanitarian reason behind such behavior. Maybe I'm just in a lucky Parish.

Also, on Catholics and birth control. OK, here is where everybody comes down on my chosen religious practice and tears into it like we're all fanatics or something. *L* The Catholic Church is against the use of Artificial Birth Control methods because of the irresponsible ways in which sex is abused in society. The Catholic Church won't take the stand of "Kids, if you're going to do it, use a condom" on the plain basis that it dilutes the message of, "Kids, Just Don't Do It." Abstinence until marriage. Plain and simple. Sure, there are vague bits about being fruitful and multiplying and leftover baggage that carries into marriages and birth control, but for the most part, the Church and parishoners in America don't care, and the Vatican doesn't make it an issue. Generally, as long as an issue does no harm, the Vatican doesn't press it.

The fundamental goal of the Catholic Church going into the 21st Century is to teach people to treat each other with kindness and respect both directly and indirectly. It is kind of hard to do that properly all the time, but their hearts are in the right place. Still, Catholicism is different from country to country, state to state, and even parish to parish. There will be screw ups, and many more times where the sin/virtue is taught without the wisdom to understand it. That is the danger of a huge bureaucracy like the Church or the Federal Government. Mistakes and problems will happen. There will be child-molesters in our ranks, and drug users, and bigots, and hate-mongers no matter what we do, because we try (at our best) to offer an inclusive community. That means we have black sheep. To judge an entire group of individuals (yes, believe it or not, religious people ARE individuals, even if many choose not to think for themselves) in negative ways is a dangerous generality. I'd know. I'm a Catholic. My Church did it to the Moslems and Jews and Protestants for years. Finally, in my own lifetime, I've seen real, lasting change towards re-establishing the inclusive community … but maybe that's just because I went to school with the Jebies, eh? *L* I know my religious institution of choice isn't perfect. It is made up of people. But I worship God, not the Church, an important distinction one must make in faith at some point.

Paul: Of course there are. I'm one of them. However, when you talk about society and culture, you're dealing entirely in generalities. It is a necessary evil one has to deal with in order to communicate at a reasonable pace. Just try not to make major life altering decisions on generalities, think for your self, chill out, and have a half-way decent life if you can swing it. That's my philosophy. :)

Time Travel: I like the last MIT theory I every heard on it. If you could go to the past and alter history, and, as a result, create a paradox, the universe will squash you like a bug. The more fool proof your plan, the more outrageous and fatal shall be the universe's response.

OK. Trying to draft out my time travel theory just ate up a good 30 minutes. Let's try again. I see time from the perspective of my days coding. I see it like a tree structure. Think of time going forwards as you move down the tree. At the top is a single root node, the begging of time, or choice, or whatever you'll have it that allows for possibility. Then, as you go down the tree, it branches into possible futures relative the previous node. There are infinite branches from each moment in time, but for simplicity's sake, imagine it as merely two for one each time you move further down the tree. A right and left child node from the parent node. Linear existence means that one moves in a line, having only one beginning and one end and no forks in your personal path. When one does not time travel, one behaves like a ball rolling down the slopes from one node to the next. Whenever you reach a node or nexus in time, you can see clear down to the bottom of the tree if you look well enough, with an infinite number of possible directions and happenings. However, if you look above you, there is only one path, the way you came.

Say you started at wherever, were just in node 12, and you moved down to node 14..

Wherever
\
12
/ \
13 14
/ \ / \
15 16 17 18

Now, when you were at node 12, you could see and access all nodes 12-18 at some point. Now, you are at node fourteen. You can look back only along a straight line, remember? You can see up to 12, and furthur up to wherever. From node 14, you CAN NOT see/access nodes 13, 15, or 16 … they are not you "future" anymore. In linear time, you can only move down the tree.

Time Travel into the past breaks those rules. You can move back up the tree. My one fundamental principle that keeps time travel separate from direct dimensional shifting is that you can only move into a "future" that is below your current position. You can, however, move into your own past and then seek an alternate future to the one you visited two hops ago. You current present has a point in the past where the timeline you seek still was as accessable as the current present. Hence, time traveling, you could go from 12 to 18, then back to 14, then to 17. Relative to the time traveler's personal experiences (age) his linear existence has been whatever - 12 - 18 - 14 -17, a line.

Paradox comes into play when you alter the future nodes you've already entered. Say you lived in 12 lived to 14, and then Time Traveled to 18. If you go back to 12 and change it so that 14 can not come out of 12, you destroy your linear existence. You make it like so:

12 <============ More Time Travel
\ X (Deleted) \
14 ======/ \
\ /Time Tavel \
18=================\

Once you nix your arrival at 14, you nix your travel to 18 to travel to 12 to nix fourteen, and so on and so on … Paradox. Paradox gets you squished. Just like you can't kill yourself as a baby before you have the chance to go back and kill yourself as a baby before you have your chance to … and so on …

In my mind, it is not that the future or past are concrete, but that as a creature with a linear existence, one can not cut one's own independent line. If you traveled to a future (2001) at age 16, in the year 1999, you can not go to the year 2000 when you are 18 and insure that the 1999 you visited at age 16 does not exist. Your personal past and existence can not be altered because of paradox. You'd never alter it in the first place. If you do go to 2000, then the 2001 you've already visited in a direct result of the whatever you do in 2000 … not matter how hard you try to screw with it. However … if you wander into alternate time streams from the past, you may wind up in an entirely different "present" when you go home. You might never go homes again … never … unless there is Something, rooting you to your own historical time line.

Ow, my head …

Spike: I never said anything about Richard getting involved with the Illuminati politics himself, and it certainly isn't sudden either. The Illuminati don't get interested until … well, can't say that right now, but it is later. The concept I'm working from is that Richard is forced into the Grail Quest as the only way to save his family from a deadly ailment. The Illuminati are bound to notice that eventually. They are the freaking Illuminati, everywhere. The other principle I'm working with is Mallory's idea that only a certain type of man could ever obtain/retain the Grail. Not even Arthur or Lancelot could do it because of their pride. From Mallory's perspective, no member of the Illuminati, so covered in manipulation, deception, and power, could ever obtain/retain the Grail him/herself. But if you were Illuminatus and finally thought you found someone who had a chance at recovering the legendary Holy Grail, wouldn't you try and sink your hooks in? :)

Also, Richard's suddenly having his semi-charmed kind of life stripped away by a disease is not too unusual. I just look at my friends and family who've had cancer or AIDS or accidents effect their family. Richard, however, gains a unique opportunity in a world of fantasy like TGS. He can, if he is willing to make the sacrifice, save his family. Does he have enough heart to make that sacrifice? Yes, IMO, he definitely could. Is he going to take everything in stride? No. I think tracing the lives of two knights and countless others long dead across a myriad of foreign lands is going to be the most difficult thing he's ever had to do in his entire life. I think he's also likely going to get the snot beat out of him learning the how to survive on his quest too. But that is what makes a true, knight-type hero from a simple man with a big heart, I believe. I think he's going to have to adapt or fail (like we all do during life) just on a much more dramatic scale. It isn't going to be easy, and Richard is definitely going to have to shape up before Arthur even ~considers~ telling him where to start this Quest.

I think Richard has a hero's soul, but that to manifest that as something more than an everyday hero and general nice guy, Richard would have to be put through a crucible and tempered. Well, here is my attempt at that crucible, Ms. Smith-Hayden. I'm sorry you won't read it. *shurgs* It probably wouldn't be very good anyway, and probably never get finished until after I graduated … but it is a pity I'll never find out what you think. I'd love to have had your feedback. :(

Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Thursday, July 22, 1999 09:57:39 PM
IP: 1cust143.tnt2.brockton.ma.da.uu.net

Mandolin: Ohhhh, that sounds like fun! Can't wait to find out how it turns out. :)

Airwalker: Good ideas about the time travel/alternate timelines. I hope that's the way it's handled in TGS, because it would open up so many possibilities. I'd love to see Brooklyn's reaction to something that's supposed to happen but doesn't, or something that happens now that wasn't supposed to happen before. First he'd be surprised, then if more things like that happen, he might start to turn paranoid, or wonder if he's losing his mind, or something. Could be a lot of fun.

Cyrway: That punishment would be perfect! Maybe throw in a little George Carlin, just for some added zing. :)

Christine: Ack! Sorry about the rejection. Best of luck to ya, hope the third one's the charm. :)

Time travel stuff: Personally, I think the most fun version of this is the one in which changing the past is possible, but those who go back and make the changes still remember "their version" of history. It gives you a way to throw some surprises at your characters and keep 'em off-guard...;)
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 09:50:57 PM
IP: wire-9.koalas.com

Hey,it seems the % glitch has been fixed.
Robby
Thursday, July 22, 1999 09:45:47 PM
IP: spider-te013.proxy.aol.com

Superman and Batman- The sad part being, in the first year or two, the Batman episodes were actually really good with character development on Bruce, and Mask of the Phantasm really did this... Its in the years since the show has so degraded, both in animation and in writing. And Superman has not really done much at all since the original episodes. They've avoided developing Clark and Lois, as the comics and other show did that and screwed things up... Interestingly enough, Jimmy Olsen has gotten more character development than either of them... And Metallo was developing as a character for a while there... Up until the episode where he gained amnesia he developed. Thenin the next episode he was in he was pulling the same tricks as before. Oh well...

Braniac- Actually, its not that he's really trying to kill Supes all that much, as it is a huge coincidence that every time he makes a new body Supes happens to stumble upon him and destroy his new bod.

JFK- As I said, as of this morning, I'm officially sick of it because it cost me a Dragonball episode!

Aaron- The phrase "Work you b!stard!" makes Netscape work? WOnder if it'll work for AOhell...

Time travel- I've oft discovered, its an easier topic to speak about than it is to write about... In any case, all evil overlords should ban timetravel. Its one of the evil overlord rules...

However, there's also predestination paradoxes... Where a character HAS to go back in time to make somethinghappen. Like Terminator or Goliath and Griff.

Aaron again- Frank Paur didn't start working on Spawn until season 3. What was fun was the atress that played Jade sounded sooo much like Sali Richardson, and right next to Keith David... But the show has greatly improved this year.

Stephan- I know the rule has said there has to be SOME CR commentarty within a post to justify an RP, but in the future, could you try to have at least as much post as RP, and not 90% RP?

Aris- Actually, most of the time, the Star Trek characters are forced back in time, they don't go by choice.

DarkAngel- All Mensa members are not pompous bufoons with largely inflated egos. My father is a Mensa member, and quite a few of us in here qualify, including myself.

Warpmind- The IQ test is definatley in question. It only adds one point if you do the whole test in under a minute, so there's definatley something faulty.
Robby
Thursday, July 22, 1999 09:42:30 PM
IP: spider-te013.proxy.aol.com

No RP tonight, cause the day has been long, I'm waiting for Wilek to come back, and I'm being an irresponsible jerk. :P

Entertainment News!!!
Not really much to report....although it has been released that Robert Carlyle, star of such films as "Trainspotting" and the new James Bond movie coming out soon, is being "heavily" considered by Lucas and his folks. Apperently, they may be tapping him for a role in the next Star Wars prequel. Fanboy hype has it going that he could play Boba Fett (I don't think that will happen) or possibly a young Moff Tarkin (This could possibly work if we actually get to see the formation of the Empire in Ep.2. Otherwise, why have any Moff present?). Personally, I always thought that Ben Cross looked like a young, virile Peter Cushing, but that's just me.

Lord of the Rings/Dr. Who fans: Keep up the hope, Tom Baker may yet have a chance at playing Gandalf in the upcoming LOTR movies. It looks as if Tom is/was being considered for the role. However, recent reports rumour Ian McKellen (Oscar nominated for "Gods and Monsters", also playing Mags in the X-flick) to be favored for the role.
I can't really see Ian as Gandalf. Ian is a very talented actor, but he just doesn't seem that right to me....

Time Travel: Ah, everyone's favorite migraine-inducing topic!!! We can go in endless circles with this one. Personally, I prefer the "1st option", the X-Men one, where the future (and the past) can be altered. The "history is immutable" concept works for the TGS universe, but personally, as a fledgling writer, I find that far too restricting. I like the idea that the future is not written or unchangeable (and consequently, the past can be rewritten). In fact, in the future (far...far....far future) I plan to incorporate such a time travel concept in some of my own fan fiction. However, I do think that this option, the "X-Men option", does need to be handled with care. While I have big time traveling plans for my fan fic, I don't ever plan to be like the X-Men, who have abused the concept to no end. Jaysus, every other week somebody from the future shows up! We got Cable, Stryfe, Rachel Summers, Ahab and the Hounds, Tyler (aka Genesis), Bishop, etc....
I think that the "changeable past/future" option can work quite well, but it does have to be handled delicately. You can't be like the X-Men, who have done the story to death.

Mandi, Kit, and the others: HAPPY BIRTHDAY ALL OF YOUSE!!!!

JFK Jr.: Okay, I have to vent now, because things are getting a little crazy--HE'S DEAD!, OKAY?! IT'S TRAGIC, BUT GET OVER IT!!!
Sorry if that's insensitive, but the media really *is* acting like this guy was some sort of prince or something. I'm sorry he's dead, he seemed like a nice enough guy, but no man short of Jesus Christ deserves this much attention in death.

Todd: I believe that in one of the numerous Superman movie scripts that were written, the author of that particular script had an interesting slant on the Braniac/Supes relationship: Braniac was created by Jor-El, Supes father. In essence, Braniac and Superman were "brothers", and Braniac wanted to kill Superman out of a warped sense of sibling rivalry. Still illogical? Perhaps, but interesting.
As for Braniac's psychosis, I think that's the writer's fault. Braniac is meant to be this killing machine of a sort; he goes around from world to world, gathering information about other lifeforms, chronicleing other worlds.....which he then destroys (possibly so that that particular lifeform's chronicle can be closed, with Braniac having the only record of them). The only way I can rationalize Braniac's continued assault of Supes is perhaps, using the cold efficiency of the machine that he is, he feels the Kryptonian chronicle is not closed until every last Kryptonian is dead. Only then will Braniac's work be complete.

Batman/Superman Adventures: I think most of the complaints the people in here have are the result of the non-continuity present in both of these shows. Unlike Gargoyles, neither show has a specific continuity; some form of it exists, but not like Gargs. The majority of the shows are "stand alone" episodes, and as a result there is less need for continued development.
However, with Batman at least, there IS some good character development. The newer episodes don't have as much (as it could be argued that they are aimed at a younger audience), but there are many Bats episodes that have very good character development. "I Am the Night" has Batman questioning his role as a vigilante when he can't protect Gordon from a near-fatal gunshot. "Appointment in Crime Alley" shows Batman's reactions to the neighborhood where his parents were gunned down. "Two-Face" has some great, well, Two Face dev. "It's Never Too Late" shows the reformation of a mob boss. "Robin's Reckoning" shows Robin's origin as well as has some good Batman/Robin relationship development. There are numerous other episodes that are very well written, with very good character development. True, the writers do not spend the amount of depth as Greg and the others did with Gargoyles, but Gargoyles and Batman/Superman are two totally different beasts altogether, as people such as Todd will attest too. Batman/Superman are largely involved with battling supervillains because that's what they do. As somebody (forgive me for not remembering) has said before, the Clan are just a race of beings who just happen to fight crime as a result of their protector urges.
I agree with Scott, I feel that the characters are themselves great. And while I do think that some good development exists (at least in Batman), if it is not up to par with, say, Gargoyles, than that is the fault of the writers. But, considering the nature of the two show, I feel that Batman/Superman are more suited for a "more action/less drama" style of storytelling than a multi-character, thickly-plotted show like Gargoyles.

Todd: You wrote: <<Much of the real problem in "Batman/Superman", for me, is that the nominal protagonists have been portrayed as having nothing in their lives other than the super-hero work.>> In a recent issue of Wizard magazine (I forget which), they performed a sort of "who's better, Marvel or DC" analysis. In the character department, who had the better characters? Wizard chose Marvel. Why? Because they were the most personal of the two. As Wizard pointed out, the Marvel characters have lives beyond their masks (case in point, the currently-mentioned Spider-Man). Notice how it's always "Spider-Man is Peter Parker" or "The Hulk is Bruce Banner". They're real people, just like you and I, with real lives that just happen to include a good bit of superheroing. The characters in D.C. are less "real" people, and more the heroes they represent. It's always "Clark Kent is Superman" or "Bruce Wayne is Batman", instead of the other way around. I think that, as a whole, a great deal of the D.C. characters are written as if they DON'T have anything else in their lives other than their tights, whereas Marvel has characters who are people first and heroes second.

Fan Fiction Archive: Anybody know what's up with this? I was there earlier today, and things were acting waaaaay funky. For instance, Coyote, on your archive page, there were multiple postings of some of your stories, while others weren't there. Weird.

ATTENTION EVERYONE!!!
Well, it looks as if Excite is finally doing something right. They've now let members of their service have free voicemail. That means me. So, if you guys want to drop me a line, for whatever reason (no phone sex, Jack ;), the number is:
1-800-EXCITE2
Then, my number is : 291-297-7335
I really have no other reason for mentioning this except it's a new toy for me to play with ;)
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 09:34:59 PM
IP: 207-172-45-72.s72.tnt5.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

Changing my color yet again

Interesting discussion. I would caution against taking individual glimpses of the future and attempting to paint an entire picture. Tons can change both in terms of positive and negative progress in a hundred and fifty or sixty years. Heck, in terms of social relationships in this country, tons has changed in the last 100 years or so years. Remember such historical highlights as "No Irish Need Apply" or "Oh my gosh, that nice Protestant girl is marrying a Catholic?" "Is that really a *female* bank teller (WW2) etc, etc, and so on. Humans adapt. Gargoyles if they're going to survive must adapt too. Will the process be simple? Will there be bigots in 160 years? Of course. But most people will just do what they have to do to get along, because they've got other more pressing things to worry about.

About Demona, Broadway and other gargoyles reaction.
Demona's path to redemption is hardly going to be linear. She has plenty of opportunities yet to screw up, alienate her clan (again) and create all kinds of reputations for herself. And Demona doesn't have the best instincts so some of her screwups could be well intentioned. Who knows? Until someone writes of them, all we can do is speculate.

Broadway and his "mother in law" > Angela wants them to get along, Demona saved his life and he's a nice guy. Is there a reason why at this point in time Broadway should be overtly hostile?
kathy
Thursday, July 22, 1999 07:59:04 PM
IP: mail.avon.com

**Glimmer enters the room**

Happy birthday to Mandolin, and since I won't be here Tomorrow... Happy birthday Katainia and Dags
Wait a sec... You're all turning twenty within 24 hours fo each other? Cool.
Wait- Jaden is turning twenty on Saturday? *Twighlight Zone theme starts playing*

Kathy> Umm... email? Nope.

Todd ie punishment> That was point I was trying to make. The clan has done wrong but no one cares or they dismiss it with "They suffered because of their actions."
Some of same people will still insist that Demona needs a horrible punishment. As if she never suffered because of her actions.

Scanner woes> I talked to my sister about the problem her scanner was giving me and it turns out that for no particular reason you have to reinstall the software every couple of months or it starts to go goofy. I have no idea why. But this ladies and gentlemem is why you should be careful buying used, outdated computer equipment from yardsales.

Actual computer> Yea! My parents changed their minds, we're getting a computer next month! And my sister is also replacing her computer next month. She's giving this computer to my seven year old niece.
Scary thought- now I'm supposed to teach my almost 55 year old mother(who can't turn on a VCR without help) how to surf the net. God grant me patience.

JakaL> I'd never think you were a snob. A nutcase maybe, but never a snob. :)

<<(Oh my God, I just had a disturbing image of Fabio costumed and posing as Goliath...)>> Now I've got an image stuck in my head: Goliath, with blonde hair instead of his normal dark locks, swinging through the jungle to a tree house where Elisa is waiting for him. She hands him a roll with a butter substitute spread on it. Goliath takes a huge bite, then looks up with a surprised expression on his face and says in a horrible accent, "I can't believe it's not butter!" *Glimmer pauses to think further on the image and then falls to the floor laughing*

The Kennedys> Now A&E is spending a whole week(and a two hour special) of Biography on the Kennedy family advertising it as "The Death of the American Prince". Oy

Time Travel> I'll save this for later. I need to think of a way to state my view that actually makes sense. :)

Guess that's it for now. But I'll be back.

**Glimmer runs from room laughing maniacly**
Glimmer - [tlmccabe@worldnet.att.net]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 07:50:54 PM
IP: 223.las-vegas-01-02rs.nv.dial-access.att.net

Pheonix shlogs (yes, thats what I said, shlogs) into the CR.

If I ever have to put the sheets and blankets and other stuff onto motel beds *perfectly*- it'll be too soon!
-anyway-

Welcome to all of the newcomers!- you'll enjoy it here.

someone asked about any good books!- uh, have you tried Robert Jordan's "Eye of the World" series? or how about the Black Gryphon series by Mercedes Lackey and Larry Dixon! both are very good series!

New Ep- about everything I wanted to say has been said already. I loved it! Elisa and Goliath- FINALLY! 8.75/10 stars

James Birdsong- *in annoying voice* UH, WHATEVER!

I forgot what I was about to say! Well, I'll be back later.

Pheonix
Pheonix - [Sylsy@msn.com]
Colorado Springs, CO, 80904
Thursday, July 22, 1999 07:22:49 PM
IP: 1cust55.tnt2.colorado-springs.co.da.uu.net

AIRWALKER - Since you mentioned Brainiac, I'll add that he was one character in "Superman" whose development disappointed me as it proceeded. In the premiere episode, which introduced him as a computer on Krypton, he made an intriguing character - not so much in himself as how he illustrated the big problem in Kryptonian society that helped seal its doom: the Kryptonians had become overly trustful of Brainiac and blindly accepted whatever he said rather than thinking for themselves, as Jor-El did, so that it provided a nice piece of satire about not putting too much trust in machines. (I wonder if humanity might wind up learning this lesson the hard way when the Y2K problem hits; let's hope that it doesn't). Brainiac's actions worked in that episode as the case of his following his Prime Directive, to survive and preserve Kryptonian lore, even if in order to do so he had to abandon the civilization that created them. But in the episodes involving him that followed, he turns into just a psychopath that happens to be in a robotic body.

Now, the essential difficulty that I have with that is that Brainiac is a computer, not a living being. Can a computer gain a psychopathic attitude? After all, it's only a machine. Brainiac gives the excuse whenever he tries to destroy the Earth that by becoming the only person who possesses the knowledge about it, he makes that knowledge more valuable, but that strikes me as utterly illogical. The only way that Brainiac's actions as portrayed in the bulk of the "Superman" series would make any real sense would be if a psychopath's brain had got implanted in him at some point between the time that he left Krypton and the time that he reached Earth.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 22, 1999 07:13:20 PM
IP: 205-242-93-49.dialup-stl.primary.net

Ah, a time travel discussion! One of my favoritest topics, and such interesting posts on it too... :)

Now, I've actually written a time travel story, as some of you know, entitled "Present Imperfect." For story purposes, I decided that the Phoenix Gate was constrained by magic to only be used for time travel where history would not be altered- that it could not take someone where they were not "destined to be." In contrast, time travel developed by science COULD work, as it operated outside the magical rules of time.

Now, in my story...

*SPOILERS*
Demona uses a time machine to travel back in time and off Elisa Maza during the events of "Deadly Force." Upon returning to the present, history is rather changed for the worse. If you want more detail, READ THE STORY. Thank you. :)
*END SPOILERS*

The time travel I use is like both Airwalker's Types 1 and 3, with a few twists.

Now, to add to all this discussion of universe types, there are several sorts of temporal phenomena to mention:

1) Causality Loop: This is what Jewel mentioned. In it, something occurs that causes time to repeat, and it continues to repeat until something stops the loop. The best example I've seen on TV was an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation entitled "Cause and Effect." In it, the Enterprise was destroyed again and again by another ship,
the Bozeman, which emerged from a temporal rift. Eventually (and a little improbably), Data managed to send a message through the loop, giving his next repetition the clue he needed to end the loop.

2) Closed Time Loop: Similar to a causality loop, this is where an event or being from the future brings about conditions in the past that in turn create that event. Best example is the infamous time-travelling Archmage saving himself so his past self can become the time-travelling
version and save himself.

3) Temporal Paradox: Most dreaded of time phenomena, these only occur in universes where history can be altered. In a paradox, the past is altered in such a way that it would be impossible for someone from the future to alter it. In a Type 2 universe, this will not happen at all. In a Type 1 universe, this also creates no problems- the time traveller
came from a possible future and now resides in the "real" future. In a Type 3 universe, however, this spells disaster- a universe would likely rip itself apart, unless events were fixed in some way (such as a person from the new future acting to ensure the new timeline's existence). I myself can't recall any good examples of paradoxes outside literature, but there is the famous story "The Man Who Folded Himself" by David Gerrold in that category. It covers time-travel with paradoxes pretty darn well.

4) Temporal Incursion: A strange form of history alteration, in a temporal incursion something- a being, a planet, or even larger bodies are removed from history, pushed outside space-time as if they never existed. Any effect had by the target is removed from history. I've only seen this recently, in two series- one episode of "Men In Black:
The Series," wherein the founding members of the MiB were removed by a MiB-hating human, and a two-parter of Star Trek: Voyager titled "Year of Hell," where a race called the Krenim attempted to restore past glories by wiping other entire races from history.

In reality, I think time-travel may be possible, and if it does then I agree with David G. that it's probably like Type 3. Fortunately, by the time we develop it we should be able to go back and observe history while having ways to protect the past from damage.

But anyway, enough rambling about time stuff...

Mandi, Dagastino, Kitainia, Jaden> Happy Birthday to all of yas. :)

Cyrway> Congrats on the job offer. :)

SJ> They dropped Sliders? Oh well, can't say I'm surprised- I agree that it's pretty much a mercy killing, and that it's been downhill ever since Prof. Arturo died. Pity that such a neat show had to become so bad... Sci-Fi did manage a few okay ones before they axed it, though.

Wellp, I'm done...
JEB - [JEB215@aol.com]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 07:10:36 PM
IP: 98a6480b.ipt.aol.com

**RP CONTINUES HERE**

"Boy, I am not kidding," Hank Hill declares as Doug aims his shotgun at him. "Surrender now or I'll burn you up worse than I did the Megalo-Mart." He lets out a plume from his flamethrower for emphasis. Doug smiles and throws his shotgun aside, drawing a snub-nosed automatic pistol as he rolls away from the next fireblast and comes up behind Hank. "It's no use trying to fight back," the KOTH lead tells Doug. "Us Borg have already assimilated ourselves to all your bullets." In answer, Doug rolls to avoid another flameblast and shoots Hank's flamethrower tank several times with his gun. "AUGH!" Hank screams as it explodes and destroys him. "Don't you just love Syphon Filter re-enactments?" Doug laughs, just before a backdraft from the explosion engulfs him. The Ravens immediately rush to his side. Keith and Tom pull him out of the blaze while Orion applies healing magics. "You made a terrible risk there," Kit points out. "I know," Doug nods. "But at least I got the guy. That reminds me, we better switch ammo again."

**END 1ST RP BIT FOR THIS POST**

Hello. This room's gotten quite lively since I last posted. Many topics to comment on. So here goes. :)

Fanfic Progress: Good news. I'm almost done with Voyage. Just have one scene left, in fact. Hope it comes to me soon, the writer's block is rearing its ugly head again. Keep that feedback coming, people, and help me banish it. Christine, I hope to get my rough draft of the story to you for AvMists editing very soon. :)

JFK Jr: Like most people I mourn his demise and that of the beautiful women who were his passengers. Also like most people I hope the media stops covering it soon.

Kaioto: I remember our IM conversation about Richard and the Grail. Your fic ideas for it look even better in writing. Hope to see some of them published soon, man.

Goliath and Elisa: Continued good points are being made about their relationship. I agree that Elisa probably expects the gargs to be part of her normal life by now. :) Hope some of the important relationship issues come up for them next season, for now I'm glad they've decided to take the first step towards committment. Keep up the good work, TGS Staff.

Aaron: If you mean the Load and Reload albums by Metallica, I've enjoyed those too. :)

Welcome to all newcomers! Welcome back to Baby Fey. Hope some of the other missing regulars will get back soon, I'm worried about Ravyn and DumlaoX.

Green Baron: Congrats on becoming a godfather. :)

David G: I've been your fanfics in between writing Voyage and other stuff, thanks for sending the second one. <mild spoilers> I think you're doing a good job so far. You've handled all the regular Gargs and Pendragon characters very well. James makes an interesting protagonist, though I think his past needs some more development. So far, the best parts of your fanfics are the action (at least IMO). I especially liked the fights in the second one, that Witch-Taker guy was a very menacing villain. Hope we see him again sometime, if only to find out more about the guy. :) Keep up the good work. <mild spoilers end>

Birth Control Debate: Not touching this one, everything I could say has already been said. I'll just take my place with the others who disagree with Mr. Birdsong and think he needs to get over himself as Coyote so eloquently put. <grin>

Kathy, Patrick: I will miss your work on TGS, thanks for providing the good bits that you did. Glad you'll still be a part of the fandom.

Christine: Good job on Alchemist, I liked the development on Alex, Amber, and the 'Old Mother.' Sorry to hear you're getting rejection letters for Black Roses, hope the next one comes through.

Demona Issues: I agree that there should be some in the future who don't hate her entirely. But maybe even if they do exist she refuses to associate with them. Demona could have become so bitter and self-pitying in the future that she won't associate with anyone by her own choice and assumes she is universally loathed for the mistakes of her past. Then she meets Benedick and he opens her heart. :)

Paul: Good point. I wonder why she'd take that form, though. <sighs> I'll have to wait till next season to find out. Thanks for the heads-up on Lunar 2's difficulty.

SJ: Good defense of BWP, we did know all that going into the movie. The hype made us think we could look past all the film's imperfections and still be entertained. Unfortunately, the film didn't work for us that way. Glad you and other people enjoyed it. :)

Emotional Drama vs. Action: I think a good story needs plenty of both at the right times in the plot in order to succeed. Yes, there should be good and bad happenings driving the story, and the characters should also be developed all throughout as much as possible. I think the main problem with cartoons like New Batman-Superman Adventures is they concentrate on what the characters in them can do, not who they are. The superhero comes on screen, shows off his powers, and that's it. Hardly any relationship or personal development. It's upsetting. Gargoyles didn't have that, of course. Who the characters were and who they became as they reacted to events and feelings was the main focus driving the story, and it continues to do so in TGS and other good fanfic series. I try to make it do so in mine as well, because IMO that is the best way to tell an interesting tale.

Utopia: I agree that the TGS future seems too good in many ways. Hope to see some of the imperfections showcased in Timedancer's next season. An "Edgar Friendly" (re- Demolition Man) type group of people who are forced to live beneath Xanatopia because of their poverty and disagreement with the regime surviving by stealing electricity (dialogue in Crossroads spawning creativity demons here). Yeah, they're committing crime in the city's eyes, but in their eyes and the eyes of Sata and Brooklyn if they discover them... it could be interesting, huh? :) I also hope to see some more of the Gargs/Human relations angle next season, it's definitely an important subplot that has been neglected of late.

Coyote: I like your mutate child Slash too. Maybe he can be the baby Maggie's carrying right now in my fanfic (if you'd allow it, of course). Wonder what his real name is.

Time Travel: Good comments on this, Airwalker, Aris, and David G. Sorry I can't think of anything to add to them. :(

Spiderman: I stopped reading his comics once Spidey's life became utopian, it felt too unreal. Still a good story, but I liked it better when he had angst and a low-paying job to cope with on top of the supervillians. I dislike Mary Jane as his love interest, too. I'll probably change things so he doesn't end up with her if he ever comes back onstage in my fanfic universe (I have plans for it, but nothing definite yet. Lots of other stuff must happen first. :)

Patrick: Nice Speed-related creativity demons. I would pay money to see them in action, especially the one with Pinky and the Brain.
<"Hey Brain, I wonder what happens if I pull this wire." "Pinky, no, that's a classic decoy!" "Narf, too late." <Boom!> >

Stephen: $ Glad you're finally returning to the RP action. :) $ Wonder which presumption on time travel in TGS is wrong. :)

Spike: So Richard is going to have an ordinary life now? <sighs> Oh well, I hope he still has an interesting one. Maybe his character can be used to show TGS fans how interesting a normal everyday existence in the Gargoyles Universe can be. <grin>

Argent: $ Okay, hope you are able to find some time soon. Ash still has to be handled by your character, after all. :) $ Welcome back.

Okay, that's all for now. Happy birthday to all who will soon be having one. Kit and I will be back this weekend with a review of Inspector Gadget (the only new film coming out this weekend that looks worth seeing). Ta ta for now. <waves>

**RESUME RP. NOTE- ALL PLAYERS HAD BETTER READ THIS ONE!**

"There you go," Orion says as he applies one last healing spell. "All better." "Thank you," Doug replies. "By the way, how are your spell stores holding up?" "I'm unfortunately almost out of energy," the cleric sighs. "But don't worry, I can always break out the reserve potions and scrolls." "Just in case we better find Guod before you're unable to keep healing us," Kit says. "Come on, everyone, let's go." They nod and keep walking through the Devastator.

Meanwhile in the control room, Guod is fuming as he watches the continuing battle outside. "How could those Frenchmen have been so stupid?" he rages as Napoleon's legions are taken out by the Scouts. Doug's evil clone then observes Napoleon being fought to a standstill by Atilla the Hun (who is of course a much better swordsman). "No!" "Boss," Two of One jumps in suddenly, "we're losing bad out there." "So I've noticed!" "Perhaps it's time to release that special Borg-Pokemon we've been holding in reserve?" "Of course!" Guod laughs, slamming a fist into an open palm as he chuckles maniacally. "Why didn't I think of that? This will put the Avatar forces down very fast!" With that, he pushes a button on the console and a door in the Devastator opens. "Sing your precious song!" Guod commands the Borg-Pokemon that walks out. It nods and flips on its implanted speakers. "Jiggly Puff, jiggly puff, jiggly puff!" "That will handle them," Guod laughs as he listens. "Just like with Techno-Nuke, only my Borg will be able to resist." "Jiggly-puff, jiggly puff."

**TO BE CONTINUED, END RP**
Doug - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 06:27:27 PM
IP: pool-209-138-214-45.dlls.grid.net

**enters the room, switching out the candles and sitting down in the big chair**

'Tis quite warm today ... **dumps a bucket of ice water over head** There, that's better. :)

Mandi: Happy B-Day! **Execution cake pops out of the floor, hands Mandi the remote** Pick yer flavor! :)

Jenniren, re: Bats and Talia's kid: The book you refer to is "Son of the Demon," which I happen to have in hardback (won it as a door prize at a con). You mean you didn't know? The kid shows up in "Kingdom Come" ... he's Ibn al Xaffusch (which translates from Arabic to "Son of the Bat").

Cyrway, re: job offer: CONGRATS, ACE!!

Time travel: I've just been skimming this conversation, and I noticed someone mentioned "12 Monkeys" (and by extension its inspiration, the short film "La Jete"). This one has *my* personal favorite style of time travel story ... one which leads to the protagonist having a circular existence. I'm just a *sucker* for those kind of stories!

Birthdays: It *is* pretty kewl that so many folks have such close birthdays to each other. The only thing I can claim is that my birthday falls three days after Greg Weisman's (Sept. 27th), and I believe is the same day as JackaL's.

Blue Caeru: Come back soon, we'll all miss ya!

Jewel: 'Tis quite morbid, but I was LOL at your short message to the media. And oh how true that is!

Jenniren: They almost buried him in Arlington National Cemetery. **growls** I'm sorry, but just because you're a friggin' Kennedy doesn't mean you automatically get buried at friggin' Arlington! (To the best of my knowledge, the only people who are buried at Arlington that are *not* retired or KIA military personnel are Presidents and First Ladies.)

Hmf ... the news was just talking about "Futuristic Day" at Tiger Stadium this afternoon ... the Tigers and Royals wore uniforms that were supposed to be really cutting edge in design (Baseball for the 21st century, y'know?). The Tigers' uniforms didn't look *that* different ... except they had ugly rounded-block Futura lettering on the backs of their jerseys, and said jerseys had no sleeves. They didn't show the Royals' unies, but from what I understand they were *hideous*.

**sits back in the big chair, meditating on the candles' flames**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Thursday, July 22, 1999 05:46:29 PM
IP: modem75.i-is.com

DAVID G - My thoughts on how to deal with present/future problem:

First it all depends on if the future we have seen in TIMEDANCER is the actual future or not. We know that there are multiple realities and we know that the Phoenix Gate can operate off of Earth. So if it can work in space then it's not too much of a leap in logic to think that it can move across realities. It's entirely possible that the 2158 Brooklyn and Sata have been to are an alternate future and that he just simply didn't notice it because some of the differences in history that exist aren't great enough that he'd realize without taking a deep enough look. That free's up the TGS future and it could account for problems that we have seen. After all if it is an alternate reality then there would be a different reaction and line of thought from what we might expect.

Now if we decide that the future that we have seen is the actual TGS future then it's not really difficult to fix what might appear to be problems. It's just a matter of how the character is looking at everything (although technically it would be a retcon).

Look for example at the 2168 Demona scene - Right now there appears to be a discrepancy in Broadway's behavior between now and then. Now he appears to have absolutely no problem with Demona but in the future he is described as having an actual problem with Demona's presence. How to fix this?

1. We reveal it to be a mistake of Demona's, that she just misread his body language, and he actually didn't have any problem with her presence.

2. We reveal that what we read, that it seemed from his body language that he didn't want her there, to be true, but we reveal that it was for a completely different reason than originally thought. After all what son-in-law wants his mother-in-law to be around at a party? Especially a mother-in-law with almost nothing else in her life to live for except her daughter to the point that she would probably spend way too much time with her, something that might make Broadway a little resentful.

Here is another example, the Massive Gargoyle response to Demona in the same scene:

1. It was again a mistake of Demona's perception. She might have become way too sensative to the reaction of everyone around her. What she thinks is hate and suspicion is really nothing but indifference.

2. We reveal that it mainly foreign Gargoyles who are attending that party with most of the Manhattan Clan out on patrol and she just happening to not run into the remaining Manhattan members. Ishimuran and London Gargoyles are more likely to give her the evil eye than Manhattan or New Olympian Gargoyles.


DELPHI - You wrote: [Also concerning Demona's perception in the future of being an outcast. I was left feeling that this stemmed more from HER inside turmoil and lifetimes of being alone. It is habit to her to keep others at bay. Would you associate with someone who appeared to chose aloneness over togetherness?]

It could be changed to be this but the impression that I got from reading REQUIEM is that she was not an outcast of her own choice. There were reactions and behavior on the part of others that was described. It could be fixed up to be said that she is just seeing things like that because she secretly wants to punish herself by self-imposed exile but for now that's not what the text implied. The behavior of the two London Gargoyles to her, Broadway's behavior, the description of the way others greet her with suspicion, or not greeting her at all out of hate can be changed. It's done in X-Men comics all the time. But until something else is shown in text it stands to me that she is being uniformily rejected.


TALEWEAVER - I agree that Brooklyn doesn't strike me as a person who would sit down and study a history book written in 2158. But still just by living there, and just from interacting with people, he's bound to learn some things. It's just unavoidable. He might not know that this and that event started because of so and so but he knows more or less when it's going to happen and what's going to happen in that specific event. Sometimes that's more than enough knowledge.

As for beating history and changing fate, there is a quote I once heard that might apply well here:

"God couldn't change history so he invented historians." :-)


KYRYN - I've read many of the Harry Turtledove novels especially the WorldWar series but a novel of his that would fit the "time travel back and change history" is GUNS OF THE SOUTH. There basically has militant South Africans travel back in time to give AK-47's to Robert E. Lee and the Confederates in 1864. The WorldWar series didn't involve any time travel just an actual change in history from what we know. It would be better classified as alternate reality.

(By the way, in case you didn't know, there is going to be a sequel trilogy series to WorldWar called Colonization. It takes place about 20 years after the events of the first 4 books in the series in the alternate 1960's when the rest of the colonization ships actually arrive on earth.)
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 22, 1999 05:40:54 PM
IP: 200.new-york-28-29rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Before I saw Greg's plans for a "Future Tense" spin off series with a time dancing Brooklyn, I assumed that travel to the future was impossible in the Gargoyles Universe. After all, it'd spoil everything to see what happened before the original series is over. Personally, I would shut down the main Gargoyles series before I started the "Future Tense" spin-off.

That said, one can still have the future being changed and not be able to change the past. Think of it this way, you stubbed your toe a few minutes ago so you can do nothing about it. If you know however that you are going to stub your toe in a few minutes however, you can just make sure you turn on the light so that you are not shuffling around in the dark trying to get a midnight snack out of the fridge. Time travel doesn't cement the time stream, only the present can do that.

In M.I.A. Griff, in the 1996 is missing, and has been missing for the past 50 years. It could be argued that Goliath, by bringing Griff into the future, changed said future.

As for the issue of condoms and the catholic church, I am thinking of entering religious life in that same church. My veiws on condoms? Why the hell not use them?
The whole debate comes from the old testiment story in the bible of Onan and Tamar. Tamar's husband died without leaving him an heir, so it was the custom in those days for the brother to impregnate the widow so that she would have someone to look after her in her old age and manage the property left behind by her husband.
However, Onan her brother-in-law, allowed his seed to be spilled on the ground. Why did this offend God? It wasn't because a few drops of semen hit the dirt, it was because since Tamar couldn't be impregnated he could come back next month and screw her again, thus turning his brother's widow into his own personal whore. Frankly, the bastard got what he deserved.
Another reason why some frown on the use of condoms is that they veiw children as gifts from god, and that using birth control stands in the way of his will. However, most in the catholic church (yes, including preists) know that the blood and body of the child comes from the joining of the sperm and the egg, not because God wiggles his fingers.
As to whether the spirit of the child comes from god or not... does it really matter? I think it is equally holy if the spirit is given by god, or it is born of the union of two people. It is a miracle either way... so why quibble about it.
As to the issue of pre-marital sex, well it is impossible for one to prevent it. However, it is risky and irresponsible which can either endanger your life, or bring another into the world which you are not ready or willing to take care of, thus bringing misery to both. Also, you can pass on STD's to your wife/husband or any other partners you have.
However, we can all agree that it is not a sin that you will burn in hell for. It is just good common sense that is good for both your body and your spirit, and I think no matter what your faith is, you will beleive that both are sacred.
Now on another note, yes preists have violated their vows, and have since the beginning of the church. However, rates of pedophilia among preists are much less than those among coaches, teachers, or the general population. Also, when preists do break their vows it is with women, not with children and most of the time they give up the office to which they have been entrusted. You Pistoff, by implying that all preists molest altar boys show yourself about as enlightened as a person who says "All blacks are theives and rapists" or "All muslims are terrorists". Thus, you show yourself to be a bigot. Hopefully you will learn to study the facts behind your opinions before you arrive at them.
Ash
Thursday, July 22, 1999 05:22:19 PM
IP: yktnsk01d01020123.sk.sympatico.ca

I guess I'll stick with this color, but now I'm playing with the picture!
(Argent enters the room, accompanied by Jewel*D and a variety of Creativity Demons in the vague forms of two other dracos, a green gargoyle with green-black hair, a tan female with blue hair, Lexington in a baseball cap, an anime character wearing something that resembles Saiyan (sp?) armor, a Pikachu with black stripes, and the Powerpuff Girls as teenagers. Argent looks around, then singles out a pair of certain immortals.)
"There they are. Go bother them for a while and let me make a post."
(DC and Sli Sludge take one look at the results of Argent's over/hyper-active imagination and tear off full tilt. The CDs and Jewel*D quickly corner them and all sorts of fun chaos ensues.)

***RANTRANTRANT***
Ugggggh, it is such a great feeling to have my evenings free again. I haven't been able to RP or keep up in here because of the living horror known as Driver's Ed. Four solid hours of watching (for the most part) preachy, dated videos, slogging through chapters of confusing babble, and then being _tested_ on it. (*heavy sarcasm* Lucky me, Ohio's legislature increased the amount of class time required just in time for me to sit through 24 hours of it instead of 20.) I can't stand sitting still that long if it's mandatory! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Thanks for listening I feel _much_ better now.

SABRINA, DIANE, DELPHI> Welcome to our home sweet insanitarium.
KITANIA> Happy birthday!
- And an early Feliz Cumpleanos to everyone else with upcoming b-days in July and August. (Because I know one way or another I'm probably going to forget to say it later.)
WARPMIND> [*GASP* You mean there are actually *humans* in here?] You weren't supposed to know about that! :P
DELPHI> Yup, I've read _several_ good books lately, the latest being Scorpian Shards, the first book in the Star Shards trilogy by Neal Shusterman.
KYRYN> Dragonsbane, Dragonsbane... why does that title sound familiar?!

Kennedy Jr.> I'm sorry for the family, now leave 'em alone you media vultures and let us get on with the rest of our lives. To be truthful, I didn't know this guy from any other Kennedy until last Saturday.
Time Travel> Geez these debates always make my head hurt. A quote from Zanatos sums it up best:
"But you won't, because you didn't."

NOTICE> Due to the fact any predictable free time I have is pretty much spoken for, I'm not going to RP for a while. Just so 'ya know, it's not exactly an earth-shattering announcement.

Gee, there's alot of good stuff happening in September.
Gotta Jet! Go Tribe!
Argent
stable, USA
Thursday, July 22, 1999 05:20:50 PM
IP: dyn029-nas02.marietta.frognet.net

***Kyryn peers in***
(pale pink this time)

Time Travel> I believe that the third way is demonstrated in Timecop and in Back to the Future. (i.e. go back, change time, come back, timeline changed but you remember)
Oh, and for those who like such things, Harry Turtledove has written some excellent alternate history stories. Including one where the world is invaded by aliens around the time of WW2 and it changes everything.

Happy B-days to those who've got 'em! Mine's not until August 26th.

Ironwolf> I once had a couple of permanently enlarged lymph nodes on the side of my neck. The doctor said that it was probably due to the many sinus and ear infections that I had had over the years on that side. They went in and cut them out because the lump was too small to biopsy without going in anyway. Turns out that they had grown together a bit abnormally and enlarged, but no cancer or anything. Maybe you've got something like that. I hope things work out ok for you.

Christine> Best of luck in the agent quest!

Warpmind> I'm not going to go there. IMHO, you shouldn't mess with the past. There are too many factors that could change things.

Delphi> You're not the only third decade person. There are several of us around. (laughter). Don't get me started on good books. I'm a librarian and I've got about a 1,000 book personal collection, most of which is sci-fi and fantasy. I haven't done much reading outside of my TGS editing lately but if you like dragons, I'd recommend Dragonsbane and Dragonspawn by Barbara Hambly. She has a delightfully unconventional way of looking at things.

Later All!

****Kyryn disappears***
Kyryn
Uvalde, TX
Thursday, July 22, 1999 04:51:47 PM
IP: 168.37.239.86

*staggers in, slightly sunburnt*
I've been out looking for dinosaur tracks in Glen Rose, Texas. Lots of hiking and falling in the river! Whew!

TGS>> Well, I actually left the main TGS group in 1998 but since I'd submitted a few outlines for the 98-99 season, I stayed on as one of the Writer's Bullpen and as an off-line artist. *laughs* Typically, I said I'd only write "When The Bough Breaks" and "My Lady Fair" but somehow I wound up working on a few more. Go fig. I'm planning on moving on and finally writing some of my own things -- both fanfic and original fiction.

Birth control & Catholicism: I converted about six years ago and this was the DUMBEST and yet most heavily debated session of my religion education classes. One guy even argued that if a person had been sterilized (i.e. tubal ligation or vacetomy) prior to converting, that they should have their procedures reversed to keep in step with church doctrine. *rolls eyes* Religious devotion does not mean to stop thinking for yourself. I fully intend for my boys to know that common sense is the number one contraception, and if I have to, stock their bathroom medicine chest with condoms.

Toku Kiato>> Interesting ficbits on Richard... however, I hope you'll excuse me if I don't read them. I think it's very out-of-character for Richard to suddenly be embroiled in Illuminati politics. His only exploitable quality is his relationship with Angela and that's just not big enough to attract the Illuminati's attention. He was created to be the ordinary, every man of TGS and I think that after all Richard's been through, he deserves to live his own life now.

Now, if I was Duvall, I'd bring in Jennifer Camford into the fold... after all, she'd be her father's legacy to the hidden world of the Illuminati. And wouldn't that shock Arthur to no end?

Ooooh.... new Pendragon subplot.... hmmmm.......
Spike
Thursday, July 22, 1999 04:32:44 PM
IP: pppt04-234.ght.iadfw.net

*staggers in, slightly sunburnt*
I've been out looking for dinosaur tracks in Glen Rose, Texas. Lots of hiking and falling in the river! Whew!

TGS>> Well, I actually left the main TGS group in 1998 but since I'd submitted a few outlines for the 98-99 season, I stayed on as one of the Writer's Bullpen and as an off-line artist. *laughs* Typically, I said I'd only write "When The Bough Breaks" and "My Lady Fair" but somehow I wound up working on a few more. Go fig. I'm planning on moving on and finally writing some of my own things -- both fanfic and original fiction.

Birth control & Catholicism: I converted about six years ago and this was the DUMBEST and yet most heavily debated session of my religion education classes. One guy even argued that if a person had been sterilized (i.e. tubal ligation or vacetomy) prior to converting, that they should have their procedures reversed to keep in step with church doctrine. *rolls eyes* Religious devotion does not mean to stop thinking for yourself. I fully intend for my boys to know that common sense is the number one contraception, and if I have to, stock their bathroom medicine chest with condoms.

Toku Kiato>> Interesting ficbits on Richard... however, I hope you'll excuse me if I don't read them. I think it's very out-of-character for Richard to suddenly be embroiled in Illuminati politics. His only exploitable quality is his relationship with Angela and that's just not big enough to attract the Illuminati's attention. He was created to be the ordinary, every man of TGS and I think that after all Richard's been through, he deserves to live his own life now.

Now, if I was Duvall, I'd bring in Jennifer Camford into the fold... after all, she'd be her father's legacy to the hidden world of the Illuminati. And wouldn't that shock Arthur to no end?

Ooooh.... new Pendragon subplot.... hmmmm.......
Spike
Thursday, July 22, 1999 04:32:33 PM
IP: pppt04-234.ght.iadfw.net

Shauntell--- The answer is YES YES YES!! Check your em!!! :)
Jenna
Thursday, July 22, 1999 04:28:43 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Aris > Time-travel in the Gargoyles Universe seems to be saying something about ignorance vs. knowledge. The temptation to see the future is like the temptation to eat the forbidden fruit. In both cases, ignorance is bliss.
Scott Iskow - [smiskow@wam.umd.edu]
Gaithersburg, Maryland
Thursday, July 22, 1999 04:04:30 PM
IP: 156.40.117.111

Time Travel & Future events> OH. I'd love to get in on this one. Personally, (my work for TGS aside) I don't think Brooklyn knows that much about future events. Not because of any self restraint, because you can't. What I take away from history is that often times, the unexpected happens. Small things have a way of creating big changes. Expectantly big changes have a neglible effect. And most importantly no one ever knows all the factors that make a change. An example that comes to mind is a Quantum Leap episode where Sam was in the middle of the Watts Riots. In the beginning Sam wanted to prevent the riots by somehow stopping the chain of events that start it, but as Al pointed out it wouldn't help. The riots started thirty years ago when a black man was turned down for a job because he was black, and forty years ago when a proud mother has to clean out someone else's house because she can't get a better job or the teenager who hassled by the police because he's the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood.

Even if Brooklyn knew song and verse what happens from here on out. (Which I'm doubtful. Brooklyn's never seemed the scholarly type. More the 'lets-go-out-and-play' type) He wouldn't know the how's and why. Sort of like reading the end of a book. There's a lot that happens between 'The best of times and the worst of times' and 'It is a far, far better thing.'

The how's and why's are always harder to nail down than the who, what, when and where's. My own belief which does not resemble Earth logic is that even history can change and fate can be beat. But that's my opinon.
Taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 03:58:00 PM
IP: hal5000.engineering.csupomona.edu

Well I think that I am hooked since I have spent the better part of my days off trying to catch up on the comments in here. Hope y'all (something I picked up in TX) don't mind but some of the comments have given me great laughs. I hope that I am not the only third decade person who enjoys gargoyles.
Quick question- Anyone read any great books lately? I just finished a couple by Anne McCaffrey.
delphi - [cmiller@magiclink.com]
Twin Falls, ID
Thursday, July 22, 1999 03:57:19 PM
IP: 207.14.200.76

Bats/Supes > The problem with these shows lies not with the characters, but with the writers. These are great characters. They're just not given anything good to work with.
Scott Iskow - [smiskow@wam.umd.edu]
Gaithersburg, Maryland
Thursday, July 22, 1999 03:55:30 PM
IP: 156.40.117.111

Time-travel> I'd like to remind people that with time-travel future, past and present must *all* be subject to the same rules. If you believe that future history is changeable that means that the past history must also be changeable.

Moreover it has nothing to do with fate, nor is free will violated. Every character is still doing what he wants to do, regardless of whether he travels in the past or the future, and whether his contribution to history is in the past or the future. Gargoyles History is written; but it's being written by the characters with free will.
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 03:50:56 PM
IP: athe530-c088.otenet.gr

Happy b-day to everyone whose due the well wishes.

Broadway/Demona>> There need not be any descrepencies when you concider that Broadway is a NEW MATE interested in making nice with MOM to please Angela. This is his focus in the present, because it is important to Angela. But that need not stay the case. I have reletives of mine who I am very glad live on the other side of the country. No matter what we try to do, we always rub each other the wrong way. Could not Demona and Broadway's relationship develop this way.

Also concerning Demona's perception in the future of being an outcast. I was left feeling that this stemmed more from HER inside turmoil and lifetimes of being alone. It is habit to her to keep others at bay. Would you associate with someone who appeared to chose aloneness over togetherness?
delphi - [Cmiller@magiclink.com]
Twin Falls, ID
Thursday, July 22, 1999 03:42:26 PM
IP: 207.14.200.76

Airwalker> Here's the question of the day: If you were writing the series, without contradicting anything anybody else has done so far (Though I'm going to qualify that in a second), What would you do about the future/present problem?

The qualification is this: You can't change anything that actually happened, but you can change things that people only though happened. A recent example is the return of Thailog. The cast presumed he was dead, when, in fact, he was only in hiding. That's the basic idea with my views on time travel and the immutibility of the future. Everybody thinks you can't change the future, and generally this is true, but there are slight exceptions.

Most of my big long posts are hypothetical models for how to deal with something the TGS staff has done that creates problems in the story. I'm interested in how you would do the same thing, since you generally have a clearer view of the problems than I do.

Anybody else, of course, is also welcome to chime in. I'm a writer and a gamer, so this is the kind of stuff I live for.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Thursday, July 22, 1999 03:38:15 PM
IP: 198.215.20.3

ARIS - You wrote: [I think that you are greatly, *greatly* underestimating the significance of 160 years.]

With that, you probably have a good point. I don't really think that there will be THAT much change in the next 160 years. Technology will advance a bit and relations between people might improve but I don't think that a utopia is going to happen in 160 years.

The impression I get from the glimpses we have seen of the TGS future is that of a utopia. Humans and Gargoyles are living in perfect peace and harmony. There is no tention between the two groups whatsoever except for the criminal element which mainly lives on the ground of old New York and is not in constant contact with Gargoyles. All Gargoyle look in revulsion at Demona because she was anti-human. There are no complaints among the people that Gargoyles probably don't have to pay taxes, stuff like that. The only difference between the Gargoyles and humanity seems to just be that Gargoyles have wings and turn to stone. I think that there wouldn't be outright war or even outright descrimination but how many human minorities get along great now? Why would the situation be any different with Gargoyles?


You wrote: [Why would anyone see Demona as a folk hero? What good has she actually done to the gargoyle race? That with her treachery she helped destroy at least two clans? Or that she tried to create a slave clone race of gargoyles?]

My thinking on this is that with New Olympus we have something unique - A clan of Gargoyles that has the same opinion on humanity that she does. Perhaps they even have a stronger hate than she due to the influence of the other New Olympian races that they live with. Now imagine they find out that there has been an immortal Gargoyle who has been wandering for the last thousand years in human dominated lands. That alone should make them take a favorable notice of her.

Then we take into account the fact that she betrayed her clan to the Vickings and then led her second clan into catastrophe. Now remember where this information would be coming from. Not Demona who I think would be very reluctant to talk about it but from other sources - Gargoyles who are living in peace with humanity (which from a biased NOlympian perspective means that there must be something wrong with them mentally) and from an immortal Human who has spent the last thousand years trying to kill Demona. To someone who wants to, those sources can be dismissed, discredited, marginalized, and/or ignored.

The clones can be viewed as a desperate attempt by a lone immortal to try and save her race by creating more Gargoyles or can be seen as a reaction to centuries of be alone and hunted. Remember that this is all being flitered through the perceptions of Gargoyles who have the same perspective on humanity that Demona had before her mellowing out in TGS.

The harder part in my theory of Demona as a hero to the New Olympian clan is that she turns into a human in daylight and that she is bonded to a human. But the Macbeth link can be written off as HUMAN treachery (he did approach her for the allience) and the human in daylight thing can also be dismissed as a human attempt to further destroy the Gargoyle race by reducing them to the status of outcast morphing humans. (Don't forget that the information is second hand. They don't know about Puck or the Weird Sisters. On top of that there might be the tendency to add things to the story and to fix things up to make it more acceptable to New Olympians listioners.)

Just to add something else - If New Olympian Gargoyles are completely friendly and at ease with humanity by 2158, I will be tremendously disappointed. I don't think that 2000 years of hate and superstition can be dismissed so easily. It would have to be something that would take many centuries to do. In 2158 they shouldn't have the same level of feeling that they would have in 2000 but they shouldn't be on the same level of feeling as an Ishimuran or a Manhattan Gargoyle.


You wrote: [Even Greg has said that obvious discrimination will be a thing of the past by the year 2158. Protected minority was the word he used. If Gargoyles were always hated by the majority, then all the efforts of Goliath and his clan would be in vain. That does not mean that the relations between Gargoyles and Humans should be utopian; race relations are not great now either: but there's no open prosecution in Western Europe or America.]

What I meant was that everyone, Human and Gargoyle seemed to be getting along on completely wonderful terms. Everyone they encounter has no problem with Gargoyles. That doesn't strike me as realistic.

For example when Artus went to speak with the head of police in CROSSROADS, I had nothing against them getting along well. But I would imagine that a few of the cops there would be a little resentful of having to work with a Gargoyle. Alternately they might feel that he's just a politician, a leader of the Gargoyle community and he should leave the real work to the cops.

I don't think that there would outright discrimination by 2158. But complete and total utopian peace with everyone getting along great together? That's not going to happen soon. There wouldn't be any more attempts to go out en masse and smash Gargoyles while they are stone but I imagine that there would be tention. There are tention between human groups now. I don't think it's unrealistic to believe that there would be tention between Humans and Gargoyles in 2158.


You wrote: [People keep on saying that humanity doesn't change, doesn't improve that a couple centuries is too little time to stop hating one another and so on. That we were always fighting one another and we will always be fighting one another. Nonsense. 160 years we were far worse than we are now, and I hope that in another 160 years we will be far better than we are now.]

Humanity was fighting with itself 160 years ago. It's still fighting today. Is it unrealistic to believe that there will still be fighting in 160 years? It might not be as bad as it was, there might be a little more unity and a bit more improvement in some respects, but there will always be conflict of some kind.

And if anything we only seem to be getting better at fighting and killing each other. More people have been killed in this century alone than were killed in all the wars that have been fought since the time of Alexander the Great. There is a visible attempt at improvement in the last 30-40 years but it's going to be a slow painful process and it's not one that's going to be complete in 160 years. It's not even going to be close to that in 160 years.

Now that's just among humanity. Throw Gargoyles into the mix. There might not be any actual discrimination but there will be some sort of, not conflict but tension. Not among everyone - in fact I could see the majority of people being neutral. But it usually isn't the majority of people who start wars and conflicts. It's usually only take one person to light the fuse on a powder keg.


STEPHEN - You wrote: [I won't say too much on this, but what I will say is I believe one of the presumptions on time travel in TGS is wrong.]

"History is immutable" is a rule that I think is too firmly rooted in Gargoyles for it to be abandoned so that can't be the presumption. Logically if history is immutable then that means that the future is immutable also since it is technically someone elses history. So the future can't be changed either. So what could be the flawed presumtion in this thinking?

If the future can be changed then history isn't immutable and it messes with the wonderful time travel rules that have been established in the main show. After all if history can be changed, then why not go back and make sure that the Wyvern Massacure never happens?

Could you elaborate on this further? Is it our presuption that the future can't be changed that's wrong or it the established rule that history is immutable? Is history immutable in TGS or does it just seem that way?


TODD - Two-Face does have that personal connection to Batman although it isn't as close as Demona's connection to Goliath.

And Braniac does have that personal connection to Superman although again it isn't as close as Demona's connection to Goliath.
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 22, 1999 02:57:28 PM
IP: 83.new-york-30-35rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

::Points and laughs maniacally at DarkAngel, who only came up with an IQ of 161::

I have this odd hunch that the IQ test in question is somewhat unreliable... I myself am acquainted with the metric system, and frankly, I don't know how much an ounce is, or its nearest metric measure. Indeed, I know there's about three foot in a meter, and that's about it.

Oh, and about the time travel debate: here's a philosophical question for you; If you were able to travel back in time, would you travel back in time to assassinate Adolf Hitler in 1936, when he still was innocent of the Holocaust, fully well knowing that the present you *might* return to afterwards would be nothing like the world you knew, and that there would be a definite chance the world you once knew might be changed... for the worse?

Just a thought, might be fun seeing some of the responses... and I am NOT a sociology student, like certain other people... *glances viciously in the direction of that bastard creep who DARED to harass one of the inhabitants of the CR, you know who I'm talking about* but I'm somewhat interested in learning about the functions of the human mind, so that I may more easily blend in among tham... OOOOPS! Gave too much away ;)

Well, anyway, later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Thursday, July 22, 1999 02:51:49 PM
IP: mp-217-228-5.daxnet.no

Sorry for the double-post, I clicked Stop because there was a typo and it seems to have posted anyway. I am ashamed :).
DarkAngel
Thursday, July 22, 1999 02:29:23 PM
IP: cs-24.acdi-cida.gc.ca

Warped De Inzane> Thanks for pointing out the IQ test. I like taking them because my motto is 'Know your enemy... and you worst enemy is yourself'.

Anyway, I was peeved at that question with ounces and pounds. I work with the International System dammit! Kilos and grams. I don't know if I did okay on that one, I assumed that one pound = 12 ounces even though I was not sure. I also had a few problems with the word definitions questions.

Anyway, I was still surprised because the last IQ test I took I scored a 120-something, and now I'm scoring a mind-bending 161!

I'd join Mensa, but every members I met were pompous buffoons with largely inflated egos. Not the kind of crowd I want to hang-out with.
DarkAngel
Quebec, Canada
Thursday, July 22, 1999 02:28:20 PM
IP: cs-24.acdi-cida.gc.ca

Warped De Inzane> Thanks for pointing out the IQ test. I like taking them because my motto is 'Know your enemy... and you worst enemy is yourself'.

Anyway, I was peeved at that question with ounces and pounds. I work with the International System dammit! Kilos and grams. I don't know if I did okay on that one, I assumed that one pound = 12 ounces even though I was not sure. I also had a few problems with the word definitions questions.

Anyway, I was still surprised because the last IQ test I took I scored a 120-something, and now I'm scoring a mind-bending 161!

I'd join Mensa, but every member I met were pompous buffoons with largely inflated egos. Not the kind of crowd I want to hang-out with.
DarkAngel
Quebec, Canada
Thursday, July 22, 1999 02:28:08 PM
IP: cs-24.acdi-cida.gc.ca

Time Travel> I'm all for way 2. I think the Gargoyles way is the best. Number 1 I don't care about. I don't believe in alternate timelines and number 3 is a paradox. Sure there's no alternate timelines but there's no real time either. If you change the past then in the present/future you never had to change it in the first place so it never gets changed so you have to change it so you never have to change it because the change is made. Endless cycle, a paradox.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USa
Thursday, July 22, 1999 02:18:34 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Could Demona's cold reception in "Requiem" be the result of how she expects to be treated and how she thinks she deserves to be treated? Some people are so off-putting in their behavior that no one wants to associate with them. Maybe you know people like that. It isn't that they are hostile or anything. They're just so ill-at-ease to talk to that you tend to avoid them. You feel that your attention is not wellcome so other than a casual nod of greeting you have nothing to do with them. If Demona's isolation in "Requiem" is the result of this sort of thing, it would stem from her guilt and be a sort of self-punishment. David G mentioned Demona's self-loathing. Ever been around someone who is self-loathing? I tend to avoid them myself - not for anything they did but because they are just uncomfortable to be around. And Demona would assume others are avoiding her because of what she did in the past rather than because of her present behavior.

Airwalker wrote - [I say that any period after 1996 which is when Brooklyn got taken away by the Gate is in doubt since it could just be an alternate future and that until we actually reach the time period in Main TGS we can't know for sure. This opens up the entire future of TGS in that it is no longer bound by what we have seen in TIMEDANCER. It also makes for interesting present Brooklyn stories in that he sees something that he knows will happen from the future not happen and stands around rubbing his head, drinking some Jack Daniels, muttering to himself "What the hell is going on?"...]

Interesting idea, Airwalker. How would Brooklyn explain things to Arianna and Graeme when they ask him, "How could things happen this way when we know it happened the other way?" And Brooklyn would be so confused himself he wouldn't know how to answer. Everything he remembered of the future would be subject to question, including any reforming of Demona's character. And if he'd already spoken out repeatedly on Demona's behalf and got her readmitted to the clan...

Non-Gargoyles stuff:
They showed JFK Jr.'s burial at sea on TV this morning. I think it's kind of strange. I could understand it if he were the President, but he's only the son of someone who used to be President. It's almost like people in the USA (or at least the USA media) actually WANT a royal family like England has. So they unofficially decided the Kennedy's would be America's royal family. The USA is supposed to be a democracy so why should people here want a royal family? Is there any other son of a famous person who would get this kind of coverage (including children of movie celebrities)? Is the desire for a royal family some sort of fundamental need for some people. Obviously it's not a universal fundamental need, but even in this room there are people who evidently watched the coverage.

When I was a little kid going to day camp, a bunch of us found a condom on the ground. I didn't know what it was. Someone said it was a rubber. "I can see it's (made of) rubber," I said, "but what is it?" The first thing most of us thought was that it was some sort of balloon and we tried to inflate it by blowing it up like a balloon. This was unsuccessful. "Maybe it's a 'special' balloon," I thought, "designed to build up your blowing strength." But after repeated attempts I decided this was bad for my ears and gave up. I couldn't see why anyone would create such a useless thing. Now that I am older I know what they're for and will never again put my mouth on one. But Consumer Reports did an article on them a while back, though, and managed to inflate them using a machine. One of the ones that "failed" assumed a very strange and amusing shape.

I once read a Batman comic where Batman and Ras al Ghul's daughter Talia had a baby together. Batman left her, not knowing she was pregnant, and for some reason she put the baby up for adoption. I always wondered what happened to that baby. In a few years maybe it will be the next Robin.

And that's enough hogwash from me for today ;)

Jenniren
Thursday, July 22, 1999 02:16:57 PM
IP: user-2ivf0gu.dialup.mindspring.com

THE SUPERMAN/BATMAN SERIES - I think that much of the reason for it being in the "static" position is that the production team is working with "pre-existing" super-heroes, and therefore may feel that they don't have that much leeway in doing much with them or developing them, lest it develop them out of recognition from the familiar descriptions. Since Goliath and his clan were the invention of the "Gargoyles" production team, there was much more room to develop them.

AIRWALKER - Good point about "City of Stone", but I do think that it feels different from the "villain-focused" episodes of "Batman/Superman". For one thing, Demona has a much closer connection to Goliath than most of the Gotham City/Metropolis villains to Batman and Superman. Demona is Goliath's ex-mate, and a former member of the clan, so that makes her much more part of their story. By comparison, the connection that nearly all of the Gotham City rogues' gallery members have towards Batman, for example, seems to be exclusively that he foils their crimes and that's it. (Catwoman is the lone exception).

Much of the real problem in "Batman/Superman", for me, is that the nominal protagonists have been portrayed as having nothing in their lives other than the super-hero work. I don't mean an absence of the "pro-active" angle that got discussed here earlier. I mean that their crime-fighting and super-heroism activities seem to take up practically all their lives, in contrast to the gargoyles. Take the Goliath & Elisa business, for example. There's no genuine equivalent to it in "Batman/Superman". Batman, of course, because of his grim obssession with his crime-fighting as a means of coping with his parents' murder, can't seriously get romantically connected with anyone; there may be a moment of his having feelings for somebody (such as Reish el Ghul's daughter), but it ultimately won't happen, and we know from "Batman Beyond" that he winds up living alone all the way down to 50 years into the future (except for Ace). Of course, it's not quite so bad since the absence of everything else in his life except for crime-fighting is a part of his angsty characterization, and so it does work. But Superman may have on the surface something going on with Lois Lane, but it never really progresses, and I can easily guess as to the reason why; it would simply get in the way of his being a super-hero. He has to be a full-time do-gooder and crimefighter, which means no time for anything that could be used for character evolution on his part.

The gargoyles, by contrast, do have much more going on in their lives than just protecting the city: learning to adjust to 20th century life, finding a new home after Xanatos and Macbeth drive them out of the castle, Goliath and Elisa falling in love but having difficulties about it because of the species barrier (rather than because it would interfere with Goliath's protector role), Broadway and Angela falling in love and Brooklyn moping about it, etc. That gave them much more variety by the fact that they had lives of their own rather than just serving as super-heroes and nothing else 24/7.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 22, 1999 01:24:09 PM
IP: sys.slpl.lib.mo.us

Airwalker> I think that you are greatly, *greatly* underestimating the significance of 160 years.

Why would anyone see Demona as a folk hero? What good has she actually done to the gargoyle race? That with her treachery she helped destroy atleast two clans? Or that she tried to create a slave clone race of gargoyles?

<<The movement towards everyone being happy and healthy in a utopia is there but there are still plenty of questions to work with, plenty of stories that can be done. My problem is with the future in TGS. Except for a few elements like gangs that roam the street level of old New York, there is basically a great relation between humanity and Gargoyles. There is no problem about Gargoyle soveriegnty. Except for turning to stone and having wings, the Gargoyles in 2158 might as well be another human minority. >>

[Shrug]. Even Greg has said that obvious discrimination will be a thing of the past by the year 2158. Protected minority was the word he used. If Gargoyles were always hated by the majority, then all the efforts of Goliath and his clan would be in vain. That does not mean that the relations between Gargoyles and Humans should be utopian; race relations are not great now either: but there's no open prosecution in Western Europe or America.

<<There shouldn't be violent war between humanity and Gargoyles but humanity doesn't get along now, and it doesn't look like it's going to change that much in the next 160 years. If we can't get along with each other then how are we going to get along great with a non-human race in the same time period? Especially since they are a race that doesn't have a numerical or tactical advantage. Gargoyles don't have superior numbers or weapons. New Olympus does and thus can force the world to take them seriously and treat them equally. But Gargoyles don't have that. They are vulnerable. That doesn't exactly encourage governments to act fairly with them.>>

Once again I'd say that you are greatly underestimating the importance of 160 years. When you say that you can't believe humans will go along with Gargoyles in 160 years, or that you can't believe Demona wouldn't be a folk hero for the New Olympians it's like someone in 1860 saying "I can't believe slavery won't be supported by atleast some politicians." or someone in 1940 saying "I can't believe Hitler won't be a hero for the Aryans or atleast the Germans in 60 years time."
And that's less time than 160 years.

People keep on saying that humanity doesn't change, doesn't improve that a couple centuries is too little time to stop hating one another and so on. That we were always fighting one another and we will always be fighting one another. Nonsense. 160 years we were far worse than we are now, and I hope that in another 160 years we will be far better than we are now.

The contradiction between Broadway's attitudes though, is indeed more important. But I think that's a problem with the present-day TGS stories not the 2158 ones.

Time-travel> I *love* time travel. When it's done right. Unfortunately in 95 percent of the time it's done by self-contradictory idiots. (sorry!) (Btw, Airwalker, for the third type of time-travel you may consider 'Back to the Future' to be an example)

Gargoyles did *great* timetravel stories with the theory that history is immutable. So did Terminator (though the focus wasn't on the timetravel) and ofcourse 'Twelve Monkies'. Babylon 5 did something similar as did Star Trek IV and TNG's "Time's Arrow". In less serious stories both the 'Discworld' and the 'Hitchhiker' stories have used the idea.

The worst kind of time-travel (when done seriously, not humorously like in 'Back to the Future') is the one where everyone agonizes about changing the future, and where they do risk the danger of changing it and then go back to set it right again (Almost all Star Trek time-travel stories). HELLO! By going back to the past, by making the tiniest change you've changed the whole future completely. You can't NOT change it. If such a time-travel theory is included in any universe it risk ruining it completely. Because every bad event can be corrected by simply going back in time...
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 01:18:15 PM
IP: athe530-a010.otenet.gr

Why is it that I always remember the rest of the stuff I wanted to say just as I hit the submit button?

Does anyone know if Frank Paur worked on the first two seasons of HBO's Spawn series. It's just seemed more fun this year. There's little stuff that I know can't really be injokes, but they're fun to watch anyway. eg; last night Spawn climbing the side of the building using his claws, and they cut to his POV. It looks exactly like Goliath climbing the side of the Eyrie building in Awakening. There's some other stuff, but I'm rambling, so I'll go now.

Later.

=Multitasking: The art of screwing up several things at once=


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Thursday, July 22, 1999 01:08:44 PM
IP: ppp-21.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Just checking in before I check out... shift's over... for now.

Jewel: So, time can get a hiccup? I guess that would be something like what we saw in "Avalon" episode two? (Or is my memory messing with me again?) Y'know, when the Archmage went back to get himself? Or what I used in my "Castaway in Time" fanfic? (Please, pardon the plug, it was mostly unintentional.)

Well, gotta scoot, they don't pay extra hours anyway.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Thursday, July 22, 1999 01:00:37 PM
IP: ti24a02-0009.dialup.online.no

**** BEGIN RP ****

[Scene opens as the attack on the Exterior of the Devastator continues. As the turbo-lasers continue to lash out at the allied forces arrayed against it, a familiar hoverjet streaks along the surface of the Devastator...]

At the controls, Big Jake is grimacing as he jukes around, barely managing to avoid blast after blast from the enemy batteries. When one volley nicks the forward shields of the Big Bird, he curses and rolls the ship over, firing all forward autocannons at the unlucky Turbo-laser battery, which is disolved in a fireball of metal scrap.

"Great! Another down, another two-hundred left!"

Just then, a warning alert blares out from his command panel; "WARNING! ENEMY FIGHTERS AT 6!"

As the Big Bird swoops away from the surface of the Devastator, six ships that are obviously Borg in design close in on the hoverjet. Before the automated systems can react, the Borg fire and hit the Big Bird several times, nearly sending it careening into the side of the massive world-processor.

"Dang it!" Jake shouts. "Damage report?"

"AUTO-FIRE SYSTEMS DESTROYED! AFTERBURNER 2/3rds DOWN! SHIELDS 2/3rds DOWN!"

"Great!"

The six Borg ships arrow in for another attack, and Jake barely avoids it by slingshotting the jet around a regulator tower.

I could really use some help here, Jake thinks to himself.

**** PAUSE RP ****

CHRISTINE - Dang, two so far? Well, here's hoping 3's the lucky one!

TIME TRAVEL & PHOENIX GATE - I won't say too much on this, but what I will say is I believe one of the presumptions on time travel in TGS is wrong.

Well, that's all from me this morning... so...

**** RESUME RP ****

The Big Bird is outmatched, as the Borg ships close in for what looks like the final attack. But, as they lock on, a turret snaps out from the rear of the jet, and a pair of multi-frequency phase disruptors blaze away! One by one, the Borg ships are obliterated in a hail of green energy.

Jake is shocked, considering he was thinking he wouldn't make it out of being killed this time! "Computer! What happened? I thought the Auto-Fire systems were down?"

"They are!" a familar voice replies, as someone comes to the entrance of the cockpit. "But it was me covering your mortal behind again, Jake!"

The tall man turns around, surprise and a smile filling his face. "Jess! You're awake!"

"Yep, but it looks like we're going to have to get down there to help your friends, the Ravens," the silver haired mechanic replies.

"Right. Can you teleport us and Sara Jane out of here?"

The female grins. "Not a problem..."

[The scene switches as a bank of Turbo-lasers lock on to the Big Bird. It closes as, in a surge of blast bolts, the hoverjet is blown to smithereens...]

**** END RP??? ****

Maintain and Check Six!
Stephen "Coldstone" Sobotka, Jr. - [scififangargoyle@yahoo.com]
Spokane, WA, USA
Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:58:30 PM
IP: m38.ieway.com

How very strange. Apparently, screaming "Work, you b'stard!" makes Netscape open up. Who'd a thunk?

Christine><<Imagine some sexy thing's got you in the same spot as Nick. Imagine the sexy thing suddenly sprouts a bunch of extra bristly legs and venom-dripping mandibles and big faceted eyes ... right at _that_ moment.>> Have you ever seen Wicked City? Almost that exact thing happens to our poor hero.

Spiderman>I'm not really qualified to comment on Spidey anymore, since I quit picking up the books after he got married. I never liked Mary Jane. I thought the Black Cat was a way cooler love intrest.

Time Travel> My brain hurts.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:52:23 PM
IP: ppp-21.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Mandolin - Happy b'day!
Kitania, Dagastino, and Jaden - happy b'day in advance!

Condoms, birth control, etc: They are good things. They prevent pregnancy and, more importantly, STDs--when used properly (a lot of people don't know how to use birth control properly--remeber that chick who got pregnant because she *ate* spermicidal jelly instead of using it the right way?). People are going to have sex, and better they be protected than not. And remember: "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

JFK Jr and the Bessette sisters: Dear media: they are dead. No one under 25 really cares.

Time travel: Hoo, boy, what a big topic. There's always the idea in time travel of the infinite-loop, where one action cause a hiccup in time and time cannot progress until the hiccup is fixed. And there's the Terminator paradox.
jewel - [Jewel.Faulkner@alumnae.brynmawr.edu]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:27:48 PM
IP: usr19.halifax.com

Okay, back at the library for the evening shift, got up the poster, as well as a new one, and I've got the Pendragon Theme running in loops here :)
With two signs reading respectively "The librarian knows more about causing injuries than curing them, please be quiet in the library" and "Honor over Fear, Knowledge over Ignorance" and the Pendragon theme playing, people seem to walk out with their heads a few inches higher than when they enter. Hmmm... coincidence, or intentional? ;)

What's more, I took the Online IQ Test (http://www.iqtest.com) and guess what? Apparently, I scored an IQ of 165. One-Hundred-and-bleedin'-Sixty-Five! Either there are some serious flaws in the test, or I'm gonna apply for a Mensa membership... probably the membership ;)

Signing off... for now (more of those disgusting mortals aree visible through the glass door).
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:02:34 PM
IP: ti24a02-0037.dialup.online.no

Man I got the blahs. Isn’t it nice when you go to the doctor and she has no clue what is wrong with you?! Case in point
I noticed my neck was swollen so to the doctor I go
Wow you are the most interesting case all week! Me “its not the mumps is it” doctor “ Oh no I am 90 ( opps almost used the percent sign) sure. Of course I have never seen a case of the mumps ok I am 80 sure, you have had your shots right?” Me “ well I haven’t had my rabies shot in a while” her “what?” Me “ never mind” she walks out side and I hear” I have no clue what’s wrong with him this is so exciting! Could It be cancer?” me from inside room “WHAT” door closes but I still hear “no the swelling is to sudden did you check for a stone in the (plenary petanary oh heck the spit gland sorry I just can’t remember the exact name of the gland) yes, and I didn’t find anything. Also he is not in pain except for the left lymph node.” Oh let me tell you how they check for a stone in this gland, ( I didn’t know you could get stone in your mouth what are we clams?) Doctor (kinda cute until this) puts on a glove sticks her fist in my mouth and feels around. To anyone who has ever wondered what latex taste like let me tell you……. crap.
Good news my prescription Sour Candy. I like a doctor that prescribes candy :o) and I go back Friday and hopefully nothing is wrong (if I have cancer in my spit glands I am gonna be pissed. How can I have dramatic moments with super villains if I can’t spit in their face ?:o( ) so this leaves me bored in pain sucking on super sour bears at work.


Ironwolf
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:42:58 AM
IP: host-209-215-9-10.cha.bellsouth.net

Supes and Bats > I think the major problem with these two shows is that they've collapsed into a formula. First, they decide what villain to use, then the story chronicles all the havoc the villain is causing. Hero makes entrance, gets pounded on for a little while, then wins.

I think what really separated "Gargoyles" from these shows was its continuity. With continuity, the characters were allowed to grow and have some *depth*. I think more animated shows should consider having more continuity. That's what made "X-men" and "Silver Surfer" so interesting for me. The characters and plot were actually going somewhere.
Scott Iskow - [smiskow@wam.umd.edu]
Gaithersburg, Maryland
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:37:41 AM
IP: 156.40.117.111

Warpmind > Vito!!! ::smacks self in forehead:: You're right, poor Vito, I forgot all about him! Gosh, when I get so many characters going that even I can't keep them straight anymore ... poor Vito; I still feel bad about his death scene, it was just *boom* over.

Mandi > yes, I thought it was kind of funny, having written that part and then seeing all the debate in here about what fiendish plans Demona could come up with next ... I thought it especially fitting for the way she's been tormented in my fics to have her want to take everyone else's children away (kinda; the other idea was sort of a Prince of Egypt kind of thing but I thought that would be too harsh; from Demona's perspective, she didn't really think Goliath could argue with her because she wasn't really _killing_ anyone).

Aaron > I'm sure I know lots of people who _would_ like getting the same treatment as Nick; but _Nick_ didn't! Imagine, say, that you've got a phobia of spiders (brrrr!). Imagine some sexy thing's got you in the same spot as Nick. Imagine the sexy thing suddenly sprouts a bunch of extra bristly legs and venom-dripping mandibles and big faceted eyes ... right at _that_ moment. Now, maybe there are some people out there who are really, _really_ interested in spiders ... but I doubt it! (JackaL? anything to say on that point? <g>) Anyway, glad you liked, and I can't help but wonder what you made of "Demon Whispers" ; )

Agent stuff > rejection number two; this one's listing stated he preferred e-queries so that was over with nice and quick and didn't give me any time to build up hopes. Moving on to the third on my list!

Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:18:51 AM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

Shantell-- I just got your em--I'm sending you one asap! :)

Hugs!
jenna
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:54:30 AM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

SJ- Its not so much that I mind Spidey having a great life, as I do about the fact his normal life is too easy nowadays, and the only difficulties he faces now are of the supervillain kind. Used to be he had to deal with three different girlfriends, bumming newspaper work to make some cash, worry about his sickly old aunt, being late for everything, keeping his Spiderman problems to himself... Now the only girl he worries about is Mary Jane, who understands when he's late because she knows he's Spidey. Last I checked he was an established photographer who brought in cash all the time, (Though the writers may have fixed that since last I checked), Aunt May friggin DIED and came back, and there's a dozen people he can go to for support that know he's Spidey. Geez, even friggin' X-Man knows who he is! He's just too dang comfortable now. Yes, Spidey shouldn't be too moody, but he shouldn't have it easy either! And granted, he can't be doing all the same stories he was doing thirty years ago, but he's just too dang comfortable!

JFK Jr.- As of this morning, I am officially sick of this press coverage. I got up at 6:30 to tape a Spanish Dragonball episode and see for the first time nearly 7 minutes of footage I know has been cut in the american version, and several minutes into the episode, right before they get to the stuff I haven't seen, they start airing a special report on Jr! Arrg! And I kept watching hoping it would end quickly! It's still going now, 2 hours later... Oii...

Hmm... Speed with Goliath and Elisa, Mulder and Scully, or Pinky and the Brain... This brings out interesting creativity demons...

Ironwolf-I'm not holding your color choice against you at all man, its one you like, and its fine. It was just kinda funky getting three posts in a row all the same color. uch the same happened on Saint Patricks day... I swear, next year I will NOT post in green that day. All those green posts hurt the eyes...


Robby
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:53:00 AM
IP: spider-wl064.proxy.aol.com

I GOT A JOB OFFER!!!

kay, folks, the condom debate is old...if a certain person in this CR is being very closed-minded on other peoples' beliefs and is so offended by cursing, then we should do best to ignore him. Personally, I'd like to ducktape him to a chair and force him to watch "Debbie Does Dallas" and listen to Denis Leary...sorta like "The Clockwork Orange", only in reverse. >:) It's a single person's choice if they want to have sex, it doesn't need to be someone with a big hat. Personally, I believe premarital sex is fine as long as you know you're gonna be with your partner for a very long time. My aunt lived with her boyfriend for ten years before her parents pretty much ordered them to get married. By then, they had a two year old daughter. sometimes, financially, it's better to have a live-in than a husband...it's not the condoms which causes teenagers to have sex, it's usually their hormones, and a compination of parents not talking to their kids about sex. Heh...two weeks after dating my boyfriend, mom decided to give me "The Talk"..."I don't care that you're having sex with him, just be protected and don't go into the old part of Portland." "But mom, we aren't having sex, and I am going into the Old Port." I never got the Old Port part. *shakes head.*

Okay, end rant mode, you regulars know how I can be when I see a topic that offends me...

To whoever said the Grail was most important to Christianity: Um...how many other religions do you know about pertaining to the Grail? The Cauldron of Life and Knowledge are very much sought out by a coven my friend's a part of. Every year, one of them makes a pilgrimage to Scotland and Ireland and searches for it.

TIME TRAVEL: Oh, yeah, I try to avoid it as much as I can... *snarf snarf snicker snicker* Actually, I do have a rather complex theory on it, but I don't have the HTML uploaded yet.

Okay, back to stuff.

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:46:44 AM
IP: ddialup-w-185.mint.net

A couple of quick replies before I kill my computer again by testing another heavily scratched CD-Rom:

Airwalker> Let's see,
Demona - Yeah, my theory doesn't cover everything. There would have to be some other factors in the background. One factor you may not have completely considered, though this doesn't account for everything, is Demona's own self-loathing. She may be exaggerating, and misinterpreting some people's reactions.

As for Broadway, I think it's a little too early to tell what his general reaction will be. From encounter to encounter, his mood may change. Right now he may be fairly friendly, but later he could get more hostile. Assuming that things stay the way they are now, you're right that he's being too friendly based on what we know about the future.

Phoenix Gate- 1996, yeah, right. I noticed that right after I posted. The date that popped up in my mind was the date when Loki died.

My theory on how the Phoenix Gate SHOULD have worked is a bit different. My idea is that Hephestus created the gate as a seal on Loki's prison, and in every time/space where the gate existed, Loki couldn't get out. Thus, the gate's range should be from the point when Loki was put into it, until when he got out.

That theory doesn't really work, since Brooklyn has been further back, and further forward than that, but it's a nice theory.

As for the rest, I was putting together a rough set of rules that didn't contradict anything that had already happened, but did give the writers some flexability. The part about the Geas, particularly, is mostly a plot device. I actually believe, as you do, that the Timedancers aren't revealing the future just because they don't want to. (However, that's rather pointless, since, if the future is imutable, nobody can change anything anyway. They're just doing it to spare the other clan members from having to worry.)

Time Travel version 3 - I deliberately ignored that one, because it's just about impossible to work with in a story. Unfortunately, it's the most likely consequence of "real" time travel.

Paul> Whatever. Since all we're doing is arguing back and forth now, I'm for dropping the subject for a while.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:46:41 AM
IP: 198.215.20.3

Interesting debates about Demona and Time Travel!
Well, I know I don't post very frequently, but I dropped by to let you all know that I will be gone for the next couple of weeks and do not know when I'll be back. I'll have internet access, but no email. In the meantime, I hope you all take care.

Sincerely,
Margaret K.
Blue Caeru
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:29:46 AM
IP: spider-wg041.proxy.aol.com

ABOUT BLAIR WITCH PROJECT-- I saw this flick last night and I must admit- I'm still spooked. I watch alot of horror genere films, Exocist included--this one topped them all. I won't tell any spoilers, but I will give a warning--

DO NOT EAT DURING OR BEFORE THIS FILM-

-The motion and lack of focus of the Camera, and the film itself made many people, myself included, physically ill. So if you are motion senesitive--like I am--I advise you to heed this advise, or you will regret it--believe me!!!

But on a much more pleasent note--

Shantell-- hey there girl! I got your em here at work, but am having my better half forward the other one at home to me. I was feeling to Blah to do anything but lay down-- but I'm better now :) --Hugs to ya girl!!

Aaron-- I don't know if you like to be scared--but if you do--go see Blair--youll like it.

Taleweaver-- have you read my story yet? How are things?

Steve-- read your update asap. Thanks for letting me know.

Ed--grrr! to tired to tackle ya now, but I will clan brother!

You all here have a good day! :)

Jenna
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:19:47 AM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

DAVID G - You make some good points on how the Gargoyles of the future would have such a low opinion of Demona. There still is 160 years between current TGS and the future of TGS so anything can happen.

But even with that said, it seems that Gargoyles in REQUIEM, were upset over her past more than anything that happened in the 20 years before the event we've seen. When Benedick introduces himself to Demona here is what she says:

"Then maybe you should ask around a little," Demona bit off bitterly. "I'm sure you can find someone to tell you all about me, tell you about my betrayals, tell you about my crimes against humans and gargoyles alike. You'll hear stories that will make you want to crawl under a rock and hide, stories that will make you flinch in horror every time my name is mentioned. And they will all be true, every word."

She's obviously talking about her past, about her centuries of existance (can't really call what she had a life) rather than any contemporary event. The whole scene implies that since Gargoyles and Humans get along so well together and information on Demona's past has gotten out into the world somehow, that every single Gargoyle on earth is revolted and disgusted with her behavior, that they don't trust her, and suspect her because of her past.

A retcon could be done to deal with this by having some recent (2140-2168) happen that would alienate everyone. But if what she did recently was so bad that it alienated ALL Gargoyles, then why would Angela still have anything to do with her? Keep in mind that not only are foreign Gargoyles greeting her with cold suspicion but MANHATTAN Gargoyles are doing the same. I can imagine one or two doing that, but all of them are doing that. Why? She lives in Manhattan, would have the most contact with Manhattan Gargoyles, would have Angela there to speak for her, and besides they are the generation who would not know her. Her past actions against the clan were to the characters we know. But except for Broadway, Angela, and possibly Lexington, the others are all dead. She is an enemy of no one in the future in the clan. In fact from the way she described her relationship with Gwenevyre to Brooklyn in that episode, she seems to have been particularly close to her which would mean a good amount of contact with the clan.


ABOUT BROADWAY AND DEMONA - Yes it's true that he doesn't have to like her to get along with her but the description of how he was around her in 2168 and how he is around her presently are very different. In the present there are no expressions of anything in voice, thought, or even body language to show that he is uncomfortable around her or that he would prefer that she disappear one night and never come back. Most of his complaints against her recently have been that he is upset at not seeing Angela when she is visiting Demona. That's it. Compared against a visible description of his being polite to her but giving every other sign that he wished she would just drop dead, it seems like a big difference.


TIME TRAVEL - I can feel the headache beginning to start at just uttering those words. Anyway, there are actually THREE ways that time travel can go:

1. The X-Men way - which basically means that someone comes from the future, changes the present, and in doing so turns the future he or she came from into an alternate timeline. The present that he or she is currently living in is now the new main timeline.

2. The Gargoyles way - History is immutable. You can't change the past. If you go to the past then you were just part of those past events and are not actually making any changes. Also since the future is ultimately someone elses past, the future can't really be changed either. If you've been to the future and then return to the present, the only thing that you can do is try to act suprised when the future actually shows up.

3. I don't actually have an example for the third example of time travel. In the third way, history IS changeable. A person can go from the future to the past and make a change but if they do, they not only wipe out their own future but run the risk of eliminating themselves. No alternate timelines, just real change.

I think that since we know that there are alternate timelines that it might be possible that the Timedancer TGS futures that we have seen are alternate timelines. That would explain some of the differences between the facts as they are now and the future that we have seen. I say that any period after 1996 which is when Brooklyn got taken away by the Gate is in doubt since it could just be an alternate future and that until we actually reach the time period in Main TGS we can't know for sure. This opens up the entire future of TGS in that it is no longer bound by what we have seen in TIMEDANCER.

It also makes for interesting present Brooklyn stories in that he sees something that he knows will happen from the future not happen and stands around rubbing his head, drinking some Jack Daniels, muttering to himself "What the hell is going on?", and getting weird looks from everyone except his wife who is too busy chewing on asprin and saying to herself in Japanese "Even after all these years, time travel still makes my head hurt." :-)

From 1996 up nobody knows exactly what is supposed to happen. All Brooklyn knows is the history up to 1996 and from before that point. So he wouldn't notice that he was in an alternate future unless he saw something really drastic in the history he knew, and odds are he wouldn't be looking for it since he doesn't want to know much about his future. The only way he would know if he was in an alternate timeline is if there was a landmark he mentioned that nobody else knew about, or if a Gargoyle he knew had a different coloring or something like that. History is immutable. But who says that the future that Brooklyn knows is the future of his timeline? That future would still be immutable. It's just that he wouldn't have seen that immutable future yet.

DAVID G wrote: [The Phoenix Gate was designed to keep Loki prisoner from roughly 10,000 years in the past until he got out in the middle of 1999. If I had been writing the stories, that would have been the limits of its range. It could take you any place in time or space between 10,000 years ago and the year 1999, when it broke. That puts a cap on Timedancer, though, doesn't it?]

First, the Gate "died" in 1996.

Second, as far as we have seen in TIMEDANCER that has been the limits of it's range. Atlantis was destroyed 10,000 years ago which is the earliest period Brooklyn and Sata have been to as far as we know. (Brooklyn was in Egypt with Meryt 8,000 years ago.)

So already you theory seems pretty good. But I've always had a problem with the Gate just being a Fey invention. If that's all that was, then why would Puck think Oberon would want it so badly that he would be willing to allow him to stay off Avalon for a few more centuries in FUTURE TENSE? (If it's a Fey invention then why not make another one?)

Here is my theory on the Phoenix Gate:

Originally the Phoenix Gate was without form. It was a pressure valve of the timestream but it was raw and without a shape. Then as we have seen in TGS, the Fey created a talisman - the physical Phoenix Gate - as a prision for Loki. As a by-product, somehow the time energy was bonded to the talisman (in an unknown way so that the process can't be duplicated). It was alright until Goliath threw it into it's own flames which together with Loki in there messed it up a bit and leads to what we know in TIMEDANCER. Now after Brooklyn's return, the Gate designed by the Fey dies completely and turns to dust. But the chronal energies are still there. They are greater than any Fey and part of the universe. Eventually they regain the shape of the Gate since that is the shape that it has had the longest, and it continues on it journey to whereever. So the Phoenix Gate is still out there but without an Fey taint on it the way it was meant to be.

You wrote: [The only major limitation is that travelers returning to the present from the future are prevented from revealing what they know, possibly by a Faerie Geas. Thus, the Timedancer family might know some of the future, or what they think is the future, but they really couldn't tell anybody much about it. Every time they really intend to spill the beans, the spell kicks in, and they suddenly can't remember, or can't say it.]

I disagree with that completely. I never liked the idea of the Fey standing around with their absolute power. If we involve magic in everything, it makes it less unique and more like a device to keep a character from doing something or do fix up something the writer just doesn't like. It feels like cheating.

I personally believe that everything that the Timedancers know about the future is being kept secret because they want to keep it secret. Brooklyn can stand up one day and say "Today's Lotto numbers are......" or he can say "Tomorrow there is going to be a massive earthquake". The only thing that is stopping him is himself. If he wants to help Demona, he can. But he doesn't seem to be doing that.

(Something that I really wish we could have seen in TGS was a more active role of Timedancer Brooklyn in Demona's redemption. She seems to have changed just because of Angela without any help whatsoever from Brooklyn. What about the promise he made after the whole Jerusha incident?)

REQUEST TO TGS STAFF - Since the TIMEDANCER Season 2 finale leaves us with Sata in the future and Brooklyn back on his own in the Timestream, can we have a return to 2255 and the entire Jerusha scene at the end of REQUIEM? I don't think that Demona and Macbeth actually managed to finally kill themselves once and for all (first since they both decide to drink poison but the only way for them to die is if one kills the other and I don't think serving each other poison is enough for the spell and second even if they do die, it will only be the death of their immortality since the Weird Sisters did tell Jerusha that they released them from the spell, so if they die they should wake up mortal). All I do know is that it is a scene and era that is just crying out for another look. Will we ever get to see it again and maybe get some sort of a possible answer?


SPIDER-MAN - Originally Spider-Man was an escape for Peter. Peter hated himself and blamed himself for his uncle's death. It wasn't Spider-Man who was responsible. It was Peter Parker. That's why he can never seem to give it up. He always needs that escape from Peter. Originally he also needed that escape from all the problems that Peter had, although over time they disappeared and now Spider-Man is just a bad habit for Peter - his version of smoking.

The writers with complete lack of imagination are trying to reverse everything because in 1968 Spider-Man stories were interesting because he had alot of problem and was single. They are planning to break up Peter and Mary Jane by having Peter have an affair with Jill Stacey (sister of Gwen Stacey)! What Spider-Man needs are some new writers who can come up with original ideas instead of rehashing the same stories that Stan Lee was doing thirty years ago.


TODD - I don't mind the focus being on the villian from time to time. I mean CITY OF STONE was a great story which focused mainly on Demona with the rest of the cast mainly reacting to what she had done in the Superman fashion you've described. The main difference though is that all the characters got a chance to shine and to grow while if it had been Superman he would have just shown up, beat her up, defeated the plan, and then gone home to either Lois or to dream about Lois (it depends on the continuity your using. He's married in comics but is single in the cartoon).
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:05:29 AM
IP: 190.new-york-06-07rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Angie-Elisa would not have 'outgrown' a normal life. She would never give up anything in her life she holds precious for the love of one person. She's not that kind of character.

Two Types of Fans-Who the blazes said this!? There are people out there who think that stories have to be purely action, most likely. I'm not one of them, but i'm not out of that generalization in the first place. You can't really classify people. I do stand by that its the inner self of each being in any story that counts in any story. The Characters, in other words. Even if the Plot is lousy you can still make up for it with Characters. Although good Plotlines are neat, too. Characters are really what make or break a story in my opinion. Well, that, and Plotline.

Angie-Back to you.
Why should Elisa outgrow normality!? I can understand her wanting a normal life. Everyone deserves to have a normal life, a lot of people do want a normal life. The Manhattan Clan wants a normal life.
The whole entire GARGOYLES Series is about life.
Or, that's my interpretation of it.
Elisa will not give up on a normal life simply because of situations in her life. She'd never do so. I don't know why you'd think she would, although I made my guess as to why you'd think she would.
Even people like Christine and Davida/Belinda in Jewel Faulkner's stories aren't giving up on a normal life.
If you want to be really extreme, I can use Fei, and Elly in XENOGEARS as examples, too. So far as I can tell, most of the nine main characters in XENOGEARS didn't give up on a normal life. Correction, I can tell that.
I can use Emeralda and Fei and Elhaym 'Elly' as extremes here if I have to, but that'll take some lengthy explanations as to why they're extremes.
Which I'm not bothering typing down now, but will become necessary if you persist in this.

Demona-Okay, I forgot about the skydancing, or maybe didn't, but I don't think it showed anywhere that Broadway shunned her. As for the rest, I read the REQUIEM Quote in the first response, and in case you don't think I did this time, I read it this time, too.
I'm still saying it could be Demona's preception.
As for the taking responsibility part, well, David G., I told you, I got your point. My point is was simply that taking responsibility for her actions is something that will be possibly the ultimate step she needs to take, or one of the ultimate steps.
Do you get that point yet!?
As for the Andrea part, I'm wondering if the THE GARGOYLES SAGA Staff didn't already have this in mind. After all, look at when Helen did disappear. Yeah, and her finding out a gargoyle smashed her, or blasted her, to bits, or so, and then trying to figure out which gargoyle would do so, with Demona, unknowing of this, deciding to tell her her secret, and her past, would really be interesting.

The 'Utopia' in CROSSROADS-Okay, the place is only New York City, and the appearance of a utopia is an appearance. In the Roman Empire, it was supposedly a utopia, but there were cracks, and when the chance for them to open up came up, everything came crashing down. There may be some understanding in New York City, but there's some fragileness. A lot, actually.
One mistake in the wrong place at the wrong time and everything could crumble down again.
It'll probably take millions of years for humans to finally understand each other.

"All humans do is place themselves at a comfortable distance from each other and call it 'mutual understanding', 'unity', or 'true love'. But it is all lies!! For one being to gain something another must lose it. It is impossible for humans to live in a state of mutual coexistence."-Krelian
XENOGEARS

That's one way of looking at things.
No, that's not my viewpoint, but it reflects possible viewpoints. Still, humans do have a very long way to go towards understanding one another.
Utopias are often just temporary.
They're achieved, and then they shatter.
Well, that's what seems likely.
Exception: In XENOGEARS, Nisan
If that city isn't a utopia, well, give me a better example!
Humans are imperfect, though.

Clifford-Err, he'll be back. He'll obviously be back. For Thailog, he has been causing trouble that isn't just for his healing. But he'd be a fool not to try to heal himself. And he is definitely not a fool.

"You still don't understand... even after your contact with the Existence? I came to understand after my contact with the Existence that, even if Deus is destroyed...... as long as humans still inhabit this land, Miang... Elhaym, will be born time, and again. Then all living things may as well perish along with Deus itself. That's the only path to freedom. The path to release us from the eternal cycles of life, the tragedies of history, and the spell of fate! Once I awaken Deus as a weapon, I'll obliterate all living things... Then I'll use your awakened self and that machine to return everything to nothing... That is what I concluded. Miang and Elhaym... are not just Deus' mouthpieces. That 'woman' is its main body! Why can't you see that?"-Grahf/Lacan
XENOGEARS
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 09:59:04 AM
IP: 77.morristown-18-19rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

sorry about the color thing I didn't really notice what color came before me. I like the default color because it is so easy to read(i am a little color blind)
Ironwolf
Thursday, July 22, 1999 09:55:36 AM
IP: host-216-78-83-35.cha.bellsouth.net

OOOPs :::turns bright red::: ignore the html thingies...I'm just used to using them in CRs...:::hides behind her wings and vanishes:::
sabrina
Thursday, July 22, 1999 09:48:08 AM
IP: proxy-413.public.paix.webtv.net

*picks the cute puppy pic* ::::bounces into the comment room::: OOooo look at all the new posts! O.O ::grins::: <BR><BR>

:::grabs the peanuts and marshmellows:::YUMMERS :::eats them::: thank yous! :-D<BR><BR>

OH! I added a new pic that I did ::dances:: If you want to check it out..do the little clicky thing :-)

well me gots to go....Catch you all later! :::bounces out of the room::
sabrina - [Brook98@webtv.net]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 09:46:03 AM
IP: proxy-413.public.paix.webtv.net

Hi all *HUGBEES*

Stupid ISP it took me 20 minutes just to connect!

Two types of fans:I'll be taking the middle ground here ,I've always liked a good balance between characterization and action.

Aaron:Hey, I'd pony up $19.95 to see Demmie take the head off Leo.>>*Slams down a twenty and grabs some popcorn*I'll be in on that!

Theresa re Fabio:Can you say "Birdman";)

Mandolin:Happy Birthday!!!

Goodnight all!!
Xanathar
Melbourne, victoria, Australia
Thursday, July 22, 1999 08:17:00 AM
IP: 203.29.192.74

TGS STAFF--Assuming Durid already forwarded my EM to the list, the Hood College mail server is still unreachable. It's been almost 24 hours since I managed to read mail sent to that account. So, again, I'm not participating in Breakdowns now because I *still* can't.

BIRTHDAYS--Let me get this straight... I'm 20 today, and Kitania, Dagastino, and Jaden turn 20 tomorrow. That right? It's funny... this is a big birthday week for the program I'm working for... three other people have birthdays this week, so the program secretary reserved half of Bertucci's for lunch today so we could fit in all the people who work for DESP, along with all the West Point cadets who'll be here another week.

Pistoff> <<Actually, a smack upside the head would be letting him off the hook a little too easily...>> He's going to get a prank Birthday Wake-Up Call instead come August; they'll embarrass him on the radio. :)

SOROW> <<I really don't like to participate in religious debates because NOBODY EVER WINS! You can't change someone's beliefs...>> Hear, hear!

Airwalker> Wow. :)

That's all, off to find some caffeine...
Mandolin - [weird_web@hotmail.com]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 08:06:06 AM
IP: ch164-10.apgea.army.mil

AIRWALKER - I can certainly agree with you about one thing; things shouldn't get too safe or comfortable for the gargoyles. A lot of the effectiveness of the series is the plight that the gargoyles are in, adjusting to a strange new world that they don't really understand, having to hide in the clock tower or the castle, feeling pretty much at bay (though not hopelessly so), giving them a sort of underdog feeling, and ensuring the focus of the series on them.

Somebody mentioned Superman in connection with this case, and I can certainly agree that Superman has it a lot easier than the gargs, and that that probably explains why he has such a "bit player" feeling in "The New Batman/Superman Adventures". In contrast to "Gargoyles", where Goliath and his clan were at the core of the stories, Superman tends to be off to one side in the bulk of his episodes, which focus more on the villains of Metropolis with Superman just coming in as a U.S. Cavalry near the end to save the day and foil the villains. I certainly wouldn't want "Gargoyles" to undergo a similar development, with the typical episode giving the clan only one or two brief appearances to step in and foil the villains at the end and the bulk of the episode being about two of the villains teaming up for a crime wave in Manhattan but finding their alliance turning into an "oil and water" sort of thing. (They do much the same thing in the "Batman" part of "The New Batman/Superman Adventures" as well, in fact. That's one of the main reasons why I don't enjoy that series as much as I enjoyed "Gargoyles").
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 22, 1999 07:40:43 AM
IP: 208-19-232-151.dialup-stl.primary.net

SPOILERS AND RANTINGS AHEAD PRECEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION
**************SPOILERS*****************
At last!!! Finally!!! 'Bout time!!! Some of the few words I would use to describe how I feel about Goliath's proposal to Elisa. I thought I'd have to wait well into the millineum for that to happen. And you people talking about "oh, it was way to fast..." can just... Oh, I'd better stop right there. No need to be gettin' inappropriate up in here. I mean how long did you want them to wait?! I mean, jeez people!!! For cryin' out loud!!! It took them like eighty years for them to friggin' express how they feel about each other and kiss. Now you want them to take another thousand years to formally get together. By the rate some of you people want Goliath and Elisa to go on with their relationship, Elisa would be old and crusty and Goliath would be old by the time they get together. Or worse, they'd be dead. No, scratch that, WE'D be dead by that time. Geez! Whoever said they hope that it would be a very long, long engagement was temperarily nuts. That would be boring and tiring. I mean, come on!!! As for that "Elisa wanting a normal life" thing, I would think she had gotten over that long ago. I think she excepts her life now as part of her "normal" life. Well, there's my two cents. Hope you found it somewhat entertaining.(toothy grin) Love you all, buh-bye.
Angie - [Goliathgirl5@yahoo.com]
USAThursday, July 22, 1999 06:47:44 AM
IP: spider-wg074.proxy.aol.com

Thanks to everyone who's wished kathy and me well. To answer the questions, yes, I still plan to write other fanfic and be around in the CRs.

New twists in the Demona discussion > I've been helping with the edits on that same new writer's fanfic that kathy mentioned, so I dare not say anything for right now. >:)

Characters & plot > Let me see if I can say this so it makes sense. I see some comments that make it sound like characters and plot are two discrete elements of a story, but they're not. Characters and plot work together. And I don't think anyone here can be 100% honest and still say they don't care about the characters, they just want action. If that were the case, you wouldn't care if it was Gargoyles or Batman or X-men or even Loony Toons fics that you were reading.

You can't have a good story without having both good characters and a good plot. I think for what people are commenting on, though, it comes down to whether one has a preference to see characters reacting to events they are placed in or the preference to see characters interacting with each other and thereby creating part of the plot in the dynamics of the relationships. In "Gargoyles," there was always a mixture of both, and that's what we tried to continue in TGS.

You can create any type of "action" plot (i.e., two characters get caught on a bus carrying a bomb that will blow up if it drops below 60 MHP), but what will dictate the real flow of the story and make it unique is who the characters are and how they interact with each other. Just consider how that above mentioned scenario would play out if the pair of characters in question were: 1) Goliath and Elisa; 2) Mulder and Scully; 3) Pinky and the Brain. Each story would be quite different from the one we saw in the movies, and quite different from each other as well.
Patrick Toman
Thursday, July 22, 1999 06:30:29 AM
IP: abd3cf5f.ipt.aol.com

On the side: Theresa is derived from Greek and usually means Harvester or Gatherer.

Starsinger
Theresa - [Starsinger@Webtv.net]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 06:07:42 AM
IP: proxy-413.public.paix.webtv.net

Jr. I'm trying to make the point that Harlequins are the "GG" rated books. Fabio is on the covers of the true bodice rippers. He also ghost wrote several books. All of which have one word titles. Thankfully I've never been that desparate for reading material. "I can't believe it's not butter."

Theresa, Tresa, Terese' (funky e), Teresa. There are others but these are the most common.

Starsinger
Theresa - [Starsinger@Webtv.net]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 06:04:38 AM
IP: proxy-413.public.paix.webtv.net

Might as well check in before going to work (gotta restore that waring by the library door, too, somebody tore it down).

Tim P.: So you hate humanity in general, except the fine people in here? *GASP* You mean there actually are *humans* here? :)

The Time Travel debate: Aww, shoot. Now I already wrote a somewhat-decent 'fic with Castaway, now what shall I do about it? (Hint, it's on my gargoyles archive page, clickie my name and find it for yourself). Actually, David G's theories about the Phoenix Gate's ability to prevent revelations of the future sounds like a good point... now, if I could only figure out how Castaway did it in *my* 'fic, I wrote it, and even *I* don't know. Heh.

Two types of fans? Hey, hey, hey, time out! I am a great believer in well considered plots (which is something I, as well, need to work on), but I also want to read about well-wrought characters. So the way I see it, I'm somewhere on neutral ground in *that* debate.

The condoms debate: I believe that they should be used, and that they are the best form of protection from STD's that we have today. With the possible exception of the Woman's Condom (or whatever it's called, I read something about it somewhere, think it was a newspaper ad or something).

Tim P.: Ah, kindred spirit ;)

Ash: So the only Catholic priest who considers birth control within marriage wrong is the Pope? Listen up, chum, according to the Vatican Council (I think it was the second, not too sure about that wee detail) the Pope is divinely unerring in questions concerning religion, faith and the Church! Personally, I'm no Catholic, I'm raised as a Lutheranean, but that is of no significance; I still consider the Pope a man to be respected for who he is.

That's all for now, gotta go.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Thursday, July 22, 1999 03:23:54 AM
IP: mp-217-226-240.daxnet.no

****NO RP TONIGHT****
Just thought I'd stop by and post before I went to bed.

Kitainia, Dags, Mandolin-You are all one day older than me? This is weird...and I love it! Weird is so cool.

Killing Angela- NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. I hope I got my feelings across.

Bronx Wyvern- You get use to the cold. After awhile you don't even feel it.

Night everyone.
Jaden - [smokey1@silcom.com]
Los Alamos, CA, U.S.A.
Thursday, July 22, 1999 01:33:16 AM
IP: pm1-13.vpop1.avtel.net

*WARNING, AN INSANLY SHORT POST UP AHEAD!!*

Hiya all! I'm posting this from my uncle's computer out in
California.

Pretty cool out here- and I mean it, it does get cold at
nights.

*Spolers/Thoughts on the new ep*
Heheheh! Finaly! the E& G saga is taking one huge step! *jumps up and down excitedly* I'm all for it baby!
Good ep altogether :( but I wish it wasn't the season finale! Oh well it will give me time to actually read up on
Pendragon.
*End Spoliers*

The American Tragety> In my opinion the media shouldn't be hounding the families of the Bessets or the Kennedy's. These people deserve room after this terrible loss. I for one will miss JFK jr because he grew up in the eyes of the nation- he had so much class about him something that he got from his mother. He and Caroline were down to earth people and ignored the name. *Sighs rolling her eyes for a moment at the thought of the media* I dunno, this might sound hypocritical (if that word exists) but has anyone noticed that when an important figure dies, and another important event comes up the media generally will look at the morbid subject? The other sad part is that the entire nation inculding myself would choose to watch it all daily.

That's all for now. Take care everyone.

"Twidle brain and Twidle Blane? If it's all the same I'll play your game!"
Bronx Wyvern - [Bronx4me@aol.com]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 01:18:54 AM
IP: pool0240.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net

No RP tonight, it's so late it's not even funny.

Doug and Kitiana: I'm sorry you didn't like the Blair Witch Project, but I feel I must defend it a bit.
You should keep in mind that this was an *amateur* film. The budget for the film was only 30 grand, and everyone from the writer/directors to the actors are completely green. They are in no way professionals--not yet, at least.
As for the trek through the woods, and other such things, remember that this film was shot in the style of a home video. There wasn't supposed to be any fancy camera shots or special fx. As for the scares, they were intended to be more psychological than the "guy-in-a-rubber-monster-suit" terrors of the last few years. You also said that the characters were not likeable or well-developed......their dialogue in the film was entirely improvised. Furthermore, they were actually kept in the woods for days, legitimately without much food, water, or heat. That's why they acted so combatitive and pissy with each other. They're characters were conceived as typical teenagers. They weren't supposed to be these characters that changed and grew through their experiences (and subsequent deaths) in the forest. This movie wasn't supposed to a slick, polished, big-budget feature, just a little independent film designed to scare you. I suppose it didn't work.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion. I am a little upset that you didn't like the film, but it's more of a "disappointed-cause-I-can't-share-something-I'm-excited-about" sort of upset. I just happen to, personally, think that this film is far better than any horror film I've seen since.....well, perhaps the Shining way back in the early eighties. Most "horror" films of the last twenty years have been nothing but slasher flicks, which can be fun and interesting, but only from a sort of sadistic p.o.v. in which you're actually cheering for the killer. Occasionally, a movie will come along (such as Clive Barker's Hellraiser, for example...or Candyman) that is a cut above the rest, but by and large I feel that horror movies have well...*sucked* big time for the last few years. And that depresses me, since I love horror flicks more than any other genre of movies out there. At this point, I would rather see an amateurish, independent film like BWP, that scares me even just a little bit, than watch Neve Campbell (OR Jennifer Love Hewitt) run around being chased by a guy in a rubber mask or see Liam Neeson get attacked by Casper the Unfriendly Ghost (I'm sorry, not even the beautiful Catherine Zeta-Jones can get me to see the totally unnecessary remake "The Haunting").

Sliders Fans: Hey, you just got canceled!!! Yep, Sliders has officially been dumped by the Sci-Fi channel. Personally, I think this is really nothing more than a mercy killing. I thought the series ran out of gas as soon as it started to drop it's initial cast members (I'm sorry, you just can't get rid of John Rhys-Davies like that!).....and then Jerry O'Connell left, and the show became all but totally unwatchable. Hopefully, maybe (just maybe) the Sci-Fi channel will now have the excess dough they need to pick up Crusade....but one can only hope.

Starsinger: I was only joking about "dark, dirty, and frightening" world of harlequins. Well, not the frightening part. Those books scare the crap outta me. Come to think of it, ANYTHING with Fabio's picture on it gives me the heebie jeebies! ;)

JackaL: Waittaminute---are you saying you got money? As in, a good deal of money? Bastard! Damnit, now I'm jealous!
Seriously, you're no snob. I wouldn't know where you'd get the idea we'd think of you that way....hell, I really do envy you if you're financially independent. I hate having to beg for money myself, but until I finish college and get a real job, I'm still stuck in slavery. But you....You're about the farthest thing from a snob I've ever seen. Start wearing sweater vests, though, and I'll kick your ass.

Robby: Well, I would have to disagree about Spider-Man. Spider-Man is supposed to be upbeat and light-hearted, not heavy-handed or dark like Batman. I find it a nice constrast that Peter does have this "perfect" life, yet he is constantly unable to live in it completely because he's always got to, oh, beat the crap out of Venom or something. Still, as somebody mentioned in here about the Gargoyles, Spidey is about hope, so at the end of the day, when his battles are done, he can go home and spend the night with that supermodel of a wife of his.
Superman, on the other hand, is far too cheerful though. Blecch.
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Thursday, July 22, 1999 01:16:02 AM
IP: 207-172-90-225.s256.tnt3.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

Aww..., Ironwolf, thank you!! YaY!!

GB- Complicated life story in which I have no problem telling, there's just no point in knowing. (Then again, that applies to the majority of what I say). So if ya really want to know.....

Where did my drink go?

Anyway...., I was saying condoms are evil..., ya know..., just to be sayin it. I realize there some religious.... whatever...., but in some cases as someone was saying, there's a certain point where it's religion or health. Ya know you don't pray to God for "moisture" when you can go to the store and buy Vagisil or somethin. If your religion as a problem with birth control, is it because it goes against the laws of God or is it because it's promoting fornacation? Or is it both? Because I think if you're on birth control and you're NOT having sex..., then there's no problem with that. I mean, I was raised up in both catholic and baptists church..., with a little penecostal thrown in, so I'm kinda confused about that..., then I confused about alot of stuff..., I think yall can understand why.
Side note that I probably shouldn't be typing- Condoms can be fun (not the cheap kind), you can streach them over your head (believe me you can), you can have water ballon fights, you can shoot them at everybody..., their fun! Remember..., condom knowledge is the best knowledge.

Finally seen the South Park movie tonight!!! YaY!!!!
And to be quite honest with you...., it really made me think about alot of stuff. It was a good movie in that way..., but it was a little extreme in some parts, if I may say!
JackaL
Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:47:28 AM
IP: spider-we021.proxy.aol.com

HUGBEES!

Lesee... Lots of talk about the latest episode, so I kinda need to keep out of it. Oh well...

Broadway flippin out- If something happened to Angela, he would react very badly I think. COnsider what happened in Deadly Force...

Kennedy- All I know is the President a few years back wasn't shot by Oswald alone. I don't give a darn about his kid, and the media shouldn't cover it so much. Oh well. (Remember people, most of the country isn't that intelligent and completely lacks a life of any sort, so they cling on to celeberties. I don't see the point...)

James- Up until now, you're claims of being the only sane one here have been acceptable. But quite frankly, you've started to worry me. Finding an isolated use of the word "Damn" and ignoring a post because of it? Saying condoms are evil and cause, or add to horniness? You hate people? You have a problem with other opinions and you want to enter the airforce? Perhaps you should seek help dude.

Theresa- There's four ways to spell the name? What are the other two?

Newbies- Welcome! I used to have a tape recorded message to initiate people, but I lost that long ago. For now, allow me, the CR Administrator to take a hold of your sanity and keep it for you, you won't need it in here!

Eesh, the main topic of the day was about condoms and birth control being bad... That's gotta be one ofthe strangest spontaneous topic this room has ever recieved...

Kitainia- Your birthday is on the 23? Sheesh, we haved like half a dozen birthdays within a two week period! Kinda neat...

Aaron- 20 bucks to see Demona take of DiCaprio's head? I'd pay that too!

Ash- Two types of fans? I think you've hit it exactly. There are those who care more about characters, and those who care more about action. As of late TGS has been slightly more about characters, but I promise, the next seasons shall be very interesting...

Aaron, David G, Ironwolf- Ack, the three of you posted one after another with the text color being the default... Looks like one long post that way...

David- Giving characters rewards and balancing it out... You are soooo right. Thats what screwed up Spiderman and Superman. They both got cushy, famous, well paying jobs, wives, and a half dozen to two dozen friends who know their secret identies. It takes all the fun out of both series when things got too cushy... Oh well...

Demona's cold reception in Requiem- It's possible she attempts another genocidal scheme somewhere down the line that rather ticks everyone off at her.

Timetravel- When I write my personal stories in the future, I shall have one all important rule... NO TIMETRAVEL! It'll save a lot of trouble and head aches...

**BRIEF RP**

Jim Iza Noying, Steve Irwin-Crocadile Hunter, and Tina who's really a were rat out to kill Jim in revenge for the death of Lonny but hasn't revealed this yet, have been running from the giant Butterfly diety Bob for about three weeks now. (Neat how my RP's keep going even when I'm not around to do them.) In the course of those three weeks, Jim has aquired a Pokemon, a sandshrew to be exact. And at the moment, not much is happening. They're off on some tropical island, hiding from Bob in one of Jim's tropical resorts. (Cheaper than a personal mansion, and they bring in the bucks!) Sure, Steve is getting his jollies wrestling crocadiles, and Jim is training his Sandshrew, and Tina is plotting her revenge and the best way to kill Jim, but otherwise, not much is happening... This will of course be disturbed as soon as I think of something to do to the characters...
Robby
Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:36:34 AM
IP: spider-we073.proxy.aol.com

Diane/Sabrina/delphi> Welcome to our clan... please help yourselves to the marshmellows! We use 'em when camping out for the new eps...

Catholics> sigh... I really don't like to participate in religious debates because NOBODY EVER WINS! You can't change someone's beliefs... I was raised Catholic, but I must say that I do not consider myself in any specific religion (so I'm not offended by anyone's free opinion). All I want to say is that not all Catholics believe that sex is only for reproducing! Probably most of them do, but it's not like all Catholics share the same views. Also, it's a person's choice to use contraceptives, such as birth control, if they feel it is necessary. I will be prescribed birth control (not for sex, trust me) very soon so I know what I'm talking about! ...Everyone has views and that's all I have to say...

Tim P. & James> Congrats on joing the military forces in the future. My family has a *long* history of military obligation and I'm very proud that you wish to dedicate your life to God and country!

Blair Witch Project> No spoilers! I never made a point to read anyone's comments on this, stupid me! I have *no* idea what it is about! Could someone please give me a brief explanation of the story and background? :)

Lot O Birthdays coming up! Gotta get that extra sleep before 'we party cause it's 1999 !' OKIloveyoubyebye!
SOROW
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 11:41:59 PM
IP: usr12-dialup201.mix1.irving.cw.net

Hi folks. I'm back, with an Obnoxiously Long Post that makes my brain hurt. Tonight's topic is the exciting world of ...TIME TRAVEL!

Airwalker's comments about the gargoyle population's low opinon of Demona have been pretty good. I agree with his concerns, though I do see some ways to work around them. To put this post into some simblance of order, here's the breakdown. First, Demona in the future. Second, Time Travel in general, and Third, how the Phoneix Gate might work.

Demona.
If all the gargoyles have great distrust/animosity for Demona in the future, then obviously she has to have a personality change in the not too distant future. If her current swing toward good is interrupted by a big disaster, or better yet, a big misunderstanding, she could have a bad reputation in the future, even to the point that clans who were not pro-human might distrust her.

This would have to be a major change, and I'm not sure what would be entailed. It would also have to be fairly brief, since she needs to reform in time to be on good terms with Angela again for the Timedancer plot to work out. The best scenario is that she does something as Dominique Destine that causes massive problems, but wasn't really done out of malevolence. With her past reputation, her protestations of innocence might not be believed, and she would sink back into the brooding, melencholy, antisocial Demona we all know and love.

A side note here, Broadway doesn't have to trust Demona to want to get along with her. He's a big, soft-hearted lug who can't bear to do anything that hurts Angela. He might believe his mate is totally nuts to hang around with a psychopath, but as long as it makes her happy, he'll do his best to get along with her, too.

Also, if cooking is anything like writing, his case of nerves about Demona's appreciation of his culinary skills is perfectly understandable. I know beyond doubt that the way I'm going to die is to be sitting in the same room with someone reading one of my stories, and to have a stress induced heart attack before they finish. (Either that, or have a fishbowl accidently dropped from an airplane and land on my head. The future is unclear.)

Time Travel Troubles
Time Travel is a very tempting plot device that is best avoided. For evidence, I submit the Terminator movies, which are trapped in a causality Mobieus Strip. Skynet sends back a terminator to kill Sarah Connors, who manages to destroy it, but in doing so provides the corporation that builds Skynet with the technology to do so, Skynet (which already shouldn't exist) sends back another terminator to kill her son, so she stops the corporation from ever building Skynet, which was where all this started...

Anyway, if you're going to do Time Travel stories, you have two choices. The first is to say that every time you change a past event, you create a new timeline. The timestream is infinitly changeable. This is what the X-men writers do, with...interesting results. The other extreme is to say that the past can't be altered. This is how Gargoyles was written. It makes the most sense, and keeps temporaly displaced story elements from getting out of hand, but it is very hard to pull off. If you ever want to do a story in the future, you had better write the entire timeline up to that point, and you can never change any of it.

TGS seems to be trying to follow that rule, but we're running into problems. Timedancer, by necessity, mucks around with the timestream. However, I have some ideas on this subject.

Time Travel in TGS.
So far, we know three things about the nature of time in TGS. (1) There are multiple timelines, and travel between them is possible. (2) The only known device capable of timetravel is the Phoenix Gate, which has been destroyed, but can still exist. (Yes, that's confusing, but that's the way it is) & (3) Everybody believes that the past can't be altered.

Notice that (3) wasn't that the past can't be altered. Everybody just thinks so. However, I'm not going to cop out and say that the past really can be altered, and could have been all along. That would be too easy. Oh no, I have a better idea:

The Phoenix Gate was designed to keep Loki prisoner from roughly 10,000 years in the past until he got out in the middle of 1999. If I had been writing the stories, that would have been the limits of its range. It could take you any place in time or space between 10,000 years ago and the year 1999, when it broke. That puts a cap on Timedancer, though, doesn't it?

Instead, it might work this way. The timestream can't be altered between those two points, because that was when the Gate was holding Loki. If you use it to travel to any point in time after those points, though, you have more or less free reign. The only major limitation is that travelers returning to the present from the future are prevented from revealing what they know, possibly by a Faerie Geas. Thus, the Timedancer family might know some of the future, or what they think is the future, but they really couldn't tell anybody much about it. Every time they really intend to spill the beans, the spell kicks in, and they suddenly can't remember, or can't say it.

This lets you have some more freedom in stories influenced by the future, and there are even ways to nudge things back into their proper shape. The effect Goliath experienced when he was trying to save Griff, to a lesser extent, could keep things moving back to the 'true' timeline. So, for instance, Brooklyn wants to accept Demona back into the clan, but things always keep getting in the way. When he tries to talk about it, the subject always changes, or he gets distracted, or whatever. He has to watch helplessly as things happen almost exactly the way he remembers them. Moreover, the timeline IS changing a little, so he has holes in his memory, and a few things he remembers aren't true anymore.

That's about long enough for tonight. See ya'll tomorrow.

BTW, I just finished Daddy's Girl, by Christy Hayden Smith (sp? - I'm terrible with names). I loved it.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 11:36:33 PM
IP: pppa56-fortworthc7-2r5191.saturn.bbn.com

Dags: Glad you liked the link. And happy birthday!

Mandolin: Actually, a smack upside the head would be letting him off the hook a little too easily....

Aaron: Hehe, me too. I wonder if we can talk the Celebrity Deathmatch people into doing that one?

Angst vs. warm fuzziness: There definitely should be a middle ground on this, if only to keep the stories true-to-life. Life is filled with good moments and bad moments. To portray things too one-sided, either way, would be less than believable. Not only that, but too much happiness *or* darkness would grow tiresome, and too much darkness would certainly get kinda depressing after a while. A good amount of angst/darkness/whatever is good, but there should be some happy, fun stuff to break the tension and balance it out a little. Just as long as it doesn't *over*balance on one side or the other.
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 11:19:26 PM
IP: wire-13.koalas.com

**enters the room once more, sitting down in the big chair**

Ahh, another truly satisfying day at work on the IQ scale ... please note dripping sarcasm. :)

I'll only be making a few replies this evening ...

James Birdsong: I've been a nice guy and been trying to steer clear of this conversation that you (don't be denying it, buddy) started, but after seeing the thread that you have taken it in ... especially your last post ... I'm starting to get just a little bit annoyed. That last post of yours is basically the equivalent of plugging your ears with your fingers and bellowing "America the Beautiful" at the top of your lungs so that you don't have to hear a dissenting opinion.
Let's face the facts here. You're talking about going into the Air Force. If you ignore people who cuss at you, then you're gonna be in it deep when you get to boot. Oh sure, the services vary in their level of intensity, but one thing I'm sure many of the military personnel, or those who know military personnel are going to agree with. BOOT IS BOOT. Are you gonna close your eyes and plug your ears when you have an angry drill sergeant bellowing a blue streak three inches from your face? I think not, or else you're just going to get nowhere fast.
To be truthful ... and a lot of folks in here know I'm not usually like this ... I am very frightened by the prospect of someone like *you* being in the armed forces ... someone who disregards anything he doesn't like, or doesn't agree with, and then won't take responsibility for something he starts when he sees it's not going the way he wants it. That's what I've been seeing with this whole condom conversation. I have three words for you, Mr. Birdsong:
GET
OVER
YOURSELF!!

**composes self**

Sorry folks, that's been weighing on me for the last day and a half.

Mutate children: I'm flattered that so many folks like my version of a child of the mutates (Slash, who is not only mildly retarded but mute as well). I would be inclined to agree with a lot of the people in here who say that the children's health and well-being would be suspect.

Aaron: I forgot to e-mail ya with this, but thanks for the suggestions on Agent Cooper's characterization.

Baby Fey: I told ya this over e-mail, but I really like the tat! :)

**sits back in the chair, meditating on the two candles' flames once more**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 11:19:10 PM
IP: modem40.i-is.com

Spelled have instead of hafe my bad.
Lawrence Stone - [craft_celtic@yahoo.com]
Chillicothe, Ohio, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 11:11:25 PM
IP: chil-ras4-4-cs-13.dial.bright.net

Kathy and Patrick> You well be missed your work was really good.

Green Baron> I guess it is coming along fine. But I have not been writting on it lately.

Airwalker> Maybe the Chiness Clan my be the descendents of the Tengu Clan. Maybe that Clan wen't to China and joined their Clan. So if they did Probably have of the Chinese Clan would descend from the Tengu Clan.

Goliath and Elisa> I am okay with them becomeing mates. I wounder how Elisa's parents are going to take the news. Also I wounder if Othello and Desdemona well come to their rookery brothers secound mateing cermoney.
Lawrence Stone - [craft_celtic@yahoo.com]
Chillicothe, Ohio, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 11:02:00 PM
IP: chil-ras4-4-cs-13.dial.bright.net

HI everyone, what interesting debates.

First, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A NICE CUSHY UTOPIA, why do you think we all enjoy a good book, to get away from it all. If you don't like what the authors are doing in their story, make your own. They are the masters of there universe and you are the vistor. Great episode Will be on my toes waiting for next season.

Birth Control>> To those who don't HEADACHES, HEARTACHES, AND TROUBLE FOLLOWS. YOU CHOSE WHAT IS RIGHT FOR YOU
delphi - [cmiller@magiclink.com]
Twin Falls, ID
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 09:59:57 PM
IP: 207.14.195.190

>>>into the dark, dirty, and frightening world of harlequin romance novels (oh my God, I just had a disturbing image of Fabio costumed and posing as Goliath....).>>> Please, Harlequins are so squeeky clean they make Disney look dirty. As for Fabio, I prefer my men lavender with wings, talons, and tail thank you. I was working a hotel once and the only reading material was two Harlequins. I had to look at the title and author to find out if I was reading the same book. Talk about cookie cutter. I prefer proper bodice rippers with a real heroine who can defend the castle on one hand, make her lord happy and rock the baby to sleep on the other.

Starsinger
Theresa - [Starsinger@Webtv.net]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 09:41:36 PM
IP: proxy-513.public.rwc.webtv.net

Airwalker wrote: [What about the GARGOYLE PROTECTION ACT that was mentioned by Andrea to Angela in SoSN? That struck me the moment she mentioned it. Are Gargoyles animals that they need to be protected like bald eagles? If they are recognised as sentient beings then don't they deserve the same rights as human beings? And if they are given those rights then should they be allowed to remain independent? That's what they are right now. Wouldn't a nation look at their independence as a violation of national sovereignty?]

I'd like to see the clan discuss these things among themselves (and with Elisa). Would they all be in agreement? What do you guys think?

Jenniren
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 09:37:23 PM
IP: user-2ivf0m3.dialup.mindspring.com

<----- "Damn! Screwed over by Microsoft again! The biggest difference between Windows 95 and Windows 98 is that there's a 98 in place of the 95!"





The ironic thing is, when I talked to Thom at the Gathering, he said he doesn't understand anything about computers. In fact, he had just bought his first one. I suggested that he drop in here. So far, nada. Oh well.

James Birdsong: <<Condoms are evil! Sex should be for producing children only and for no other reason. Condoms must be the devil's invention. It invites lust and horneness. They don't allow pregnancy. I know that is the point as well as prevent STDs and that sickens me.>> Let me get this straight: You’re saying that humans should let their population explode yet let STDs spread uncontrolled harming, even killing, so many others?

<<It invites lust and horneness.>> I have never had the opportunity to use a condom and I'm *still* horny.

I’m not thrilled about condoms either, but I don’t want AIDS or any other kind of STD. I don’t want any children yet, but that male birth control pill is still a couple years down the road.

<< I hate humans. >> I hate humans in general too (With the exception of the fine people here in the TGS comment room, of course:). Mostly those in the same age range I’m in.

<<Yep IRL I hate people but I am not a nutbag. >> That’s debatable.

<<At the end of Summer I'm going into the Air Force. I still have to have my pych analysis though but I worry not. I know I'm sane. Most here aren't but I am >> Congratulations. I’m joining the Marine Corps myself next summer. In the meantime, I’m going to work out during my freshman year of college to get in better shape.
Tim P. - [dtkphipp@pionet.net]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 08:42:48 PM
IP: s20-onawa.pionet.net

Hi, all! Again, I briefly surface--and hopefully, I'll be able to read the comment room again this week. The last times I reappeared from the nothingness, I got to basically say Hi, then not get back to the comment room for about 2 weeks. Arg. Hopefully, I'll get to come back *this* week. This is just a brief "Yeah, I still exist" message, and a "Nope, next Apokalypsis still isn't done, but close" message. Provided my life avoid hell a little longer (Although right now, it's on the precipace of one of the lower circles), I should be turning into a regular contributor to this place again...

OK. Back to downloading more Linux stuff...


Jewel Faulkner - [Jewel.Faulkner@alumnae.brynmawr.edu]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 07:27:03 PM
IP: usr104.halifax.com

Greetings all...

DEBATES et All - I'm keeping out of these, thank you.

COMMENTS ON ELISA/GOLIATH RELATIONSHIP - Must say, the comments are interesting. Something for us to think about on the TGS staff for Breakdowns. :)

***** SHAMELESS PLUG *****

I just updated my personal website, redid the "Mika the Elf" front door, and added the second chapter of my "Generations Quest" Story.

***** END SHAMELESS PLUG *****

CHRISTINE'S NEW STORY - Will read this soon! And bummer on the rejection slip, Chris... keep on truckin' though!

Maintain and Check Six!
Stephen "Coldstone" Sobotka, Jr. - [scififangargoyle@yahoo.com]
Spokane, WA, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 06:23:56 PM
IP: m40.ieway.com

PAUL - You wrote: [I don't believe it said Broadway was at the park, so maybe he wasn't mentioned. Demona was paying attention to the ones that avoided her or just acknowledged her, she probably didn't pay attention to the ones who wished to talk to her.]

Broadway was at the Park in REQUIEM. There is a large description of Demona watching him and Angela skydance when Benedick introduces himself to her. He was also standing next to Angela when Demona went to say hello in the beginning of that sequence.

The description given in that episode implies that Demona is getting a cold reception from everyone outside of her daughter and a complete stranger who had never heard of her. Here is what is written:

"Demona caped her wings and began to walk. A few of the gargoyles that she passed acknowledged her with a nod of
greeting, but never a smile. Others greeted her with open suspicion. Yes, everyone knew of the infamous Demona.
Nevertheless, Demona held her head high and walked proudly, responding to those who greeted her and ignoring those who shunned her."

She is aware of everyone around her because the line following that one says:

"One unfamiliar white gargoyle merely stared at her with eyes like saucers. Demona snorted. Come one, come all, gawk at the bane of humanity in the flesh. Demona ignored him and continued searching for the one reason she had come."

She sees everyone around her. Nobody moves to greet her warmly outside of Angela. There are no Gargoyles who look at her as a folk hero as I think some New Olympians Gargoyles might do. Even those who acknowledge her look at her as if she has the plague. No one wants to talk with her and if she suddenly dropped dead, the only one in the crowd who would care would be Angela. That is the implication of the text. And to me that just seems to be wrong.

I don't even think that she should have really been noticed in that crowd as anything more than another Gargoyle who was joining the festivities. I don't think that we really should have gotten much of a reaction until someone hears her being introduced.

It's one thing that when she was introduced by name to two London Gargoyles and they reacted strongly with fear, that I could understand. They suddenly realize that DEMONA is standing in front of them. They never met her and only know about the deeds attributed to her name. But everyone in that crowd hating and being suspicious of Demona at first sight? Everyone? It doesn't seem right.

Not only that but I don't see Manhattan Gargoyles having a strong reaction to her. Except for Broadway and Angela, the generation of clan that she was fighting with and trying to kill is gone. They shouldn't really have that much of a reaction to her. She should just be "Demona, that Gargoyle chick who doesn't die and who should never be pissed off." Foreign Gargoyles on the other hand, with them I could see a variety of reaction. London and Ishimuran Gargoyles who have had great relationships with humans would look at her with a variety of emotions including distaste. The reaction of the two London Gargoyles to her didn't bother me. But New Olympians shouldn't think that way. Perhaps Chinese Gargoyles think the same way (We don't know enough about them and their relationship with Humans to form an opinion, but I imagine that they lived in almost complete isolation from humanity until the Aftermath Quest reached them and so they might not have such a great opinion of humans).

[Side-Note: Who here thinks that the Chinese Clan is the descendents of the Tengu clan from the various Timedancer stories?]


ASH - You wrote: [Now you can have everyone married off and happy, safe and snug inside Xanatos's castle and beloved by the world at large (which I greatly fear is the direction TGS is heading) but you would be taking away all of the things that made gargoyles great.]

I'm not really happy about the movement toward utopia either. I don't want things to degenerate into a FUTURE TENSE senario but utopia is unrealistic. Utopia is something that we strive for but it's always a little bit out of reach. Utopia reminds me of the quote:

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp else what's a heaven for?"

It's something that we reach for but can't exactly get to.

There are still threats out there for the Gargoyles but I do admit that it doesn't seem like that much when you consider that they just defeated an evil Fey and his army of Darkness, they live in a castle with a rich beyond imagination individual who can finance basically anything they want, and they are all more or less paired off.

The Quarrymen are gone, the question in the eyes of the public if Gargoyles are animals or intelligent beings has disappeared, Goliath and his Gathering idea seems to be drawing the clans of the world closer together, and the major enemies that we knew are either reformed (Xanatos, Demona) or marginalized (Thailog).

What I would like to see is a return of the Gargoyle/Human relations angle. The Unseelie War swallowed it whole but with all the wierdness that has been going on, how does the normal man of the street feel about Gargoyles? Not Quarryman members, not PIT members, just people who happen to be trying to live their lives quietly in NYC? I personally don't have any huge desire to go out and become a registered member of any group. How would I, a NYC resident, with let's say very little information about Gargoyles except for a mixture of Quarrymen AND PIT information, feel and react to them?

There is still that aura of the unknown even with PIT working the streets for the clan. Are they citizens, are they animals, do they have the right to stop criminals the way they do? What about procedure, warrents, miranda rights, stuff like that? How many ordinary people have actually seen a Gargoyle?

What about Clifford? He vowed revenge and had plans but hasn't been seen since. We need another anti-Gargoyle group. Not Phoenix Rising, not violent shock troops, but a sort of anti-Gargoyle PIT-like group. (Personally I think that the Quarrymen were eliminated much too soon. I would have prefered to have seen Castaway overthrown by saner elements in the organisation who would then transform the group into a publically identified PIT-like anti-Gargoyle group.)

What about the GARGOYLE PROTECTION ACT that was mentioned by Andrea to Angela in SoSN? That struck me the moment she mentioned it. Are Gargoyles animals that they need to be protected like bald eagles? If they are recognised as sentient beings then don't they deserve the same rights as human beings? And if they are given those rights then should they be allowed to remain independent? That's what they are right now. Wouldn't a nation look at their independence as a violation of national sovereignty?

Thailog has been brought back thankfully but a logical realistic way has to be found to help fix him up a bit. He is in a very weak position which is only good in that it makes the hero underestimate him. But Thailog should always have a plan and never really loses. He's like Xanatos - even when things go wrong for him, it's just another opportunity to go in a different direction. Fire damage shouldn't mean that much to him other than it being a setback to his plans. And a minor setback at that.

The movement towards everyone being happy and healthy in a utopia is there but there are still plenty of questions to work with, plenty of stories that can be done. My problem is with the future in TGS. Except for a few elements like gangs that roam the street level of old New York, there is basically a great relation between humanity and Gargoyles. There is no problem about Gargoyle soveriegnty. Except for turning to stone and having wings, the Gargoyles in 2158 might as well be another human minority.

There shouldn't be violent war between humanity and Gargoyles but humanity doesn't get along now, and it doesn't look like it's going to change that much in the next 160 years. If we can't get along with each other then how are we going to get along great with a non-human race in the same time period? Especially since they are a race that doesn't have a numerical or tactical advantage. Gargoyles don't have superior numbers or weapons. New Olympus does and thus can force the world to take them seriously and treat them equally. But Gargoyles don't have that. They are vulnerable. That doesn't exactly encourage governments to act fairly with them.
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 05:28:26 PM
IP: 223.new-york-31-32rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

***Kyryn peers back in***

That's Dark Peach?!?
I decided to switch colors again because there are too many posts in peach, which I was using.

This should be lilac.

***Kyryn vanishes***
Kyryn
Uvalde, TX
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 05:11:02 PM
IP: 168.37.239.86

Well, there seems to be a nest nest of controversy over artificial birth control of all topics.

I myself don't think condoms are evil (that makes as much sense as saying guns are evil), though I myself will never use ARTIFICIAL birth control, because of my beliefs. I do not believe the practice is necessarily evil or such, but I respect traidtion and the beliefs that I have. I will not tell my wife to follow the same, especially if she isn't Catholic. I also plan to get married in my mid thrities to avoid having a large family, plus I will use Natural family Planning and abstinence (for certain periods of time) as well as Cable TV, Video games, and the Internet, which are all perfectly permitted forms of birth control :)

As for condoms promoting reckless behaviour, that is true to a small extent. When airbags and seatbelts, became available, auto fatalities went down, while auto accidents went up. This is true of any saftey feature since people will be a little less careful when there is less chance of something going wrong. Since condoms are a safety fetaure the same can be true, though this is a very minor point, and they are not overly effective, as Kaioto pointed out. I myself won't advise using them. I advise discretion and waiting, but I don't tell anyone anything, except msyelf.

SJ> Not everything in Christianity is mentioned in the Bible.Tthe book is almost 2,000 years old, so there is also tradition to look too, as well. Actually, the Catholic Churches position on artificla birth control make some good points though it can prove inconvenient for many people today. Besides, NFP can be as effective as contraception and is safer, too. About 1,000 women die each year from complications related to the pill. I also think reviving the castrat'e could help put population growth in check :)

Jackal> Nah! You're not a snob, though I am amazed at how you can be financially independent.

Ash> <<As for the grail, if it were to exist it should belong to the religions that most revere it, mainly the Roman Catholic and Orthodox
churches. They would take the most precautions to it's safety and protection. Personally, I beleive that the holy grail is deep
within a vault in the Vatican if it exists at all.>>

I kind of hope it is, but that's just me. That was the exact point I was trying to make, though you did a better job presenting it.

Cyrway> I may be wrong, but I think artificial birth control is permitted if used for other health purposes, under the double effect clause.

Mandolin> Maybe having teenagers see all the dangers of STDs could make them think a little bit more, and if that fails, there's always the castrat'e idea :)

Tim P.> I love your comments on the pics, and it is an offer I can't refuse :)

Baby Fey> Welcome back.

Pistoff> I imagine most priests have completely obeyed theri vows of celibacy. With the population as great as it is, a little more celibacy may be a good thing :)

Aris> You do present a certain logic to your statement, regardless of my own views on the matter.

Patrick> You'll be missed too. As for Springer, I don't care about his show, I wouldn't vote for him, because he's an ultraliberal.

Starsinger> Thanks for the clarifictaion. I guess she will be St. Teresa of Calcutta in the next few years then :)
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
New Orleans, Louisiana
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 05:09:34 PM
IP: 141.164.133.110

**Kyryn delurks from the corner***

Ash> *grin* Most writers always leave a loophole somewhere even if they have a happy ending or a serious resolution. Michael Moorcock kicked himself for a while after he killed off Elric and his entire universe and fans kept asking for more. (Of course, I can't say that that story had a happy ending.)

****MINOR SoC Spoilers****

I too, thought this had something of a kitchen sink feel to it. It was well written, but there was too much crammed into one ep.
BTW, kudos to the artists for some beautiful work. I laughed my head off at the scene of Demona tightening Andrea's corset strings!

*****END Minor Spoilers****

Later All!

***Kyryn disappears into revamping the library website****
Kyryn
Uvalde
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 05:08:24 PM
IP: 168.37.239.86

Ed--(regarding comments to Ash) that is also life.
Jenna
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 04:46:59 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Ash: Yeah, but I want things to be concerned with the characters and yet they should still encounter hardships. That’s what develops the characters more than anything.

Ironwolf: No, I find SOC rather disappointing because I felt it moved the series on in ways that felt uncomfortable. I actually think RE-EMERGENCE should have been the season conclusion, in truth… maybe with SOC as a separate Pendragon story (most of that was really good apart from a few bits of trivia) coming prior to it. :| There is an element of "there won't be another TGS for ages", but more along the lines that I feel the series should end on an exceedingly high point of drama... like HUNTER'S MOON, REPRISALS, CROSSROADS, PERSPECTIVES etc... not with 50 plots and the kitchen sink landscaped and out of the blue the otherwise little-featured Goliath popping the question to equally-little-featured Elisa. Not that out-of-the-blue doesn't work (HUNTER'S MOON did), but it doesn't seem to be a logical progression throughout the story. Or even really the series... it's all too disjointed.
Ed
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 04:42:12 PM
IP: p220-penguin-gui.tch.virgin.net

Ash-- ah,now I see.

David-- I like your arguement and I agree with it entirely. Not a lot more I can say on the arguement now. Good job!
Jenna
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 04:32:21 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Dang it was ironwulf not David G that spoke. Darn colors (Really GONE)
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 04:30:59 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

David G gets it even though he doesn't agree with my exact point but yes very much so you can have intimacy without sex. I posted enough today and I'm very tired of this sketchy topic. I won't look at this comment room again until tommorow and even then I refuse to respond to anymore more posts on this topic even though most may think I started it. The issues of condems was here before I posted about the, That's all I have to say. Goodbye all (GONE)
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 04:30:10 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Jenn: Oh I didn't mean say that the gargoyles shouldn't have their victiories and their happiness, because without them you wouldn't have a good story either. But in an ongoing series, you cannot have a conclusion to the character's problems unless you are willing to end the series. The line between good pastiche writing and fanfiction it seems is that you can like the characters, but realise that you shouldn't fix all of their problems for them so they can have a happy ending.
Ash
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 04:20:18 PM
IP: yktnsk01d010101216.sk.sympatico.ca

Snob= Person who thinks they are better than others usually through wealth. Hmmm sorry Jackal you just don’t seem to fit the definition. Mabey with a lobotomy and years of hard work :o)

Condoms now lets see my dad comes form a Hispanic family with 12 brothers and sisters and I have to say about half my cousins agree with James. I don’t but he has his beliefs and hey we have ours (by the way Aris Bravo on your statement I hope people listen). What I disagree with is that; well sex as a form of entertainment has always existed. I did some wild west researching and came across the treatment methods for STD’S and if they didn’t stop people from having sex let me tell you nothing would “shudder”. You know no one has mentioned the fact that you can have intimacy without having sex and vice versa. We all make mistakes and well (not to piss off all the females in here) sometimes a female can be talked into something before she is ready, and a child coming before the parent (s) are ready well some parent (s) can resent the child. I have a friend who’s mother had her before she was ready to be a parent and their relationship is bad because her mom see’s her as every mistake her mom has ever made. What I’am trying to say ( and doing a bad job) is a unplanned pregnancy hurts the child too.

*************seeds of change********
now I think the reason every one is complaining about this so much is
1 it’s the season finale and we can’t get our fix in for another couple of months
2 it mabey should have been longer mabey a two parter to help us absorb all the changes.
Of course if it had been then; well the staff may have made it a cliff hanger and made us wait for season 3. That would have been horrible as we laid in wait to ambush them and tie them down to computers to finish it:0)

ironwolf
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 04:11:56 PM
IP: host-209-214-41-142.cha.bellsouth.net

Oh well, I tried to re-post Someone to Watch Over Me, and it didn't work again. I'll try again later. Anybody who would like an advance copy, e-mail me and I'll send one. It may take a day or so, since I can't seem to do attachments from my home PC, and I doubt Yahoo is going to let me get away with a 30 page e-mail.

On the whole warm fuzzie vs. dark and angst ridden debate, I have to come down on the angst ridden side, but that's just me. I think the dividing line is really more like the people who love the characters like friends, and never want anything bad to happen to them vs. the people who want the story to be as dramatic and exciting as possible.

Drama doesn't always require angst, and you can have happy endings, but you have to be sure not to let the good outweigh the bad. When my mom reads my fiction, she always complains when I do anything bad to the characters, and I always tell her "if nothing bad happens, it's a really boring story."

Of course, one of the difficulties of writing a long series, instead of a one shot story or a shorter series is that the protagonists earn rewards, but the writers have to be careful about giving them out. It's a delicate ballance. If you reward the good guys too much, the story suffers. If you don't reward them enough, the reader starts thinking "haven't these people suffered enough?"

Paul> Having Demona learn that she killed Andrea's sister is the kind of thing I had in mind. Of course, I would want Andrea to learn it, too, right before Demona confessed her true identity...

The idea is not just to make Demona suffer more. That would put her over the edge, and wouldn't serve any purpose in the story. The idea is to have her learn to accept responsibility in the most dramatic way possible.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 04:09:17 PM
IP: 198.215.20.3

Warpmind> I suppose I can see your point. It was traumatic for *Nick*. For others.... Besides, after a few times, it might not seem so bad. Check Pistoff's Truce to see what I mean.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 04:05:43 PM
IP: ppp-228.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Ash-- of the two types of fans--I have notice something similar. Question for you though--can't there be any type of balance or middle ground? I hope there can be.

Some of the angst written stories you talk about forget one main thing of gargs-- Greg wrote about hope. In the garg universe there is a place for gentleness as well savagery. So much of what I see written in other genres is full of self congradulating characters always ready with a wittism at a moments notice. What I loved about gargs was that they were a little more rough around the edges--it feels more honest to me somehow.

I asked Greg at the Gathering why he chose the colors he did for the gargs-- like reds, blues, ect for the garogoyles instead of just universal grey for all of them. He said that he DID NOT want the show to be like batman, where its all drawn on black paper and seen through the eyes of someone almost totally dark. Goliath has had tragedy happen to him, but he remains an optimist. That is why the color palate was used like it was in the show. It was a deliberate conscious choice.

But one thing I'd like to point out is that Goliath, though an optimist is no idiot. He has tasted bitter sorrow, and knows that there are some things that once lost can never be recovered. But he seems to remain optimistic, not by foolheartiness or "naivete" as Demona says, but through conscious choice. To have hope can be a conscious decision.


Jenna
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 03:43:34 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

What I'm finding about all the debates here (Goliath/Elisa romance, Demona and reformation, etc) is that there are two types of fans. One, who want things to be mushy are concerned more about the characters, those that want things to be more angst-ridden care more about the setting and a good story. The thing to remember is that while characters are important to a story they are not THE story. Without conflict, or sorrow, or hardship, there is no point in reading, because there is nothing to read about.
Now you can have everyone married off and happy, safe and snug inside Xanatos's castle and beloved by the world at large (which I greatly fear is the direction TGS is heading) but you would be taking away all of the things that made gargoyles great. Death, lost love, loneliness, fear... all existed within the gargoyles series, so don't overly sugar coat things now and expect everyone to like it.
Ash
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 03:17:58 PM
IP: yktnsk01d01040130.sk.sympatico.ca

Cryway> Any christian religion preaches that extra marital sex is wrong, not just catholism. The issue of condoms within marriage, the only catholic priest I know that considers birth control within marriage wrong is Pope John Paul II. But let's face it, he's over 80 years old and maybe still a virgin, so what does he know about it? ;)

As for the grail, if it were to exist it should belong to the religions that most revere it, mainly the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches. They would take the most precautions to it's safety and protection. Personally, I beleive that the holy grail is deep within a vault in the Vatican if it exists at all.

Ash
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 03:06:24 PM
IP: yktnsk01d01040130.sk.sympatico.ca

Damn! Already done packing, I might even pop in here tomorrow!

Aaron: No, my friend is not called Grand Moff Ogre; if you read Christine Morgan's Curse of the Shadow Beasts, you might understand when I call him an Alphonse; pretty much the same personality, pretty much the same looks :) but he's still a lot of fun to hang around with. Oh, and I can agree with Christine's definition of Nick's... incident... with Demona as traumatic. Think about it: This drop-dead gorgeous babe seduces you, ties you to the bed, and then, just before the "final motion" is initiated, she turns into the one thing you fear, hate and despise over all others on this godforsaken planet. Yep, I'd say getting literally raped by your worst nightmare, then reliving it for ages would be pretty traumatic. You gotta pay more attention to what you read, boy.

Well, gotta disconect (my dear old father disapproves of me sitting connected to the internet all the time... understandable since he pays the bills).
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:50:52 PM
IP: mp-217-228-70.daxnet.no

Jackal>I send you a mail...
Exin
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:47:51 PM
IP: 193.97.193.250

*wanders in*
Goodness, we're having a lot of birthdays coming up. I can't keep track! Well, happy birthday to all you people celebrating one this week!

"Seeds of Change:" I want to see more of the Illuminati next season! I'm wondering if they're framing Arthur, and what Matt got a summons for.

Kathy and Patrick: I enjoyed your writing in TGS and am sorry to see you go. Will you continue to write fanfic?

And that's all I want to say.
*wanders back out*
Blue Caeru
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:44:06 PM
IP: spider-to031.proxy.aol.com

.....of recent anyway...

I'm jammin to Al Green!!

I'm gonna go do something..., naughty... hehehee. Hey guess what?!? Nevermind don't.
It's a black cat in a yellow sky!! Ahhhh!!!!
JackaL - [Jackal1127@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:42:09 PM
IP: spider-wj022.proxy.aol.com

Aaron-- **laughs** :P
Jenna
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:36:53 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Yes I blame condoms Mandolin thanks for asking
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:28:11 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Hi, Jenna.

What can I say? When Sevarius called what he was making Nick relive a "traumatic experience" I almost died laughing. Traumatic experience?!? Try dream come true!

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:26:33 PM
IP: ppp-228.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Coyote> That tattoo came out well, but only once I was in the process of being tattooed did I find out that the lower back and sides are one of the most painful spots to get tattooed. Still, tattooing doesn't hurt as much as ppl claim. I never even had to crush my friend's hand that I was holding. And if you want to see it email me sometime, and I'll either send you a link or the file itself since angelfire is giving me problems. But it turned out well, the tattoo healed up, so it's all good. And it's good to hear Ravyn got back in contact with her Gargoyles buds. ;)

See y'all later.
Baby Fey - [kriskev@theriver.com]
Sierra Vista, AZ
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:17:30 PM
IP: a18.pm3-30.theriver.com

Aaron-- hey there! read your comment to Chrisitine--you naughty thing! hehe! :P
Jenna
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:00:58 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Knew I forgot something.

Christine> If what Demona did to Nick was torture, chain me to the wall! ;)

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:56:07 PM
IP: ppp-125.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Aaron wanders in, clutching his coat around him.

I wish someone would explain to the building owners that maintaing a 20 degree difference between the temp outside and the temp inside is unhealthy. I'm freezing various parts of my anatomy off over here.

Anyway enough complaining, on to replies.

Shogun Raptor> You're close. JFK was killed by the Illuminati as part of a ritual designed to bring about the end of the world. (Yes, I've eaten my paranoia flakes today)

Patrick><<Also, Demona _did_ save his life earlier in the season... and that's got to count for something.>> Now where have I heard that before?

Pistoff><<Celebrity death on PPV>> Hey, I'd pony up $19.95 to see Demmie take the head off Leo.

SJ> Preacher movie. I saw a prospectus on this that said the four main parts, Jesse, Tulip, Cassidy, and The Saint of Killers had been cast as Ben Afflek, Cameron Diaz, Robert Carlysle (sp) and Samuel L. Jackson, respectively. None of whom I would let near the movie except SLJ, and, much as I like him, I don't think he should be the SoK.

Warpmind> Your buddy would be a guy who calls himself Grand Moff Ogre, would he?

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:52:52 PM
IP: ppp-125.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

YES! I finally got through the draft of that report! Now to comments.

**SEMI-RANT RESPONDING TO JAMES BEGINS**

James> <<Now please let's not speak of this anymore. It is a pretty deep debate we should not continue. This is a pg-13 comment room after all.>> Then why'd you start it in the first place? Knowing the rest of us, a comment like that was definitely going to spark some heated debate! You have been popping in here enough to know that by now! So I'm adding my $.02 as well.

With so many people having sex without protection and sometimes even deciding they don't want/need it (I know a few idiots like this), how can you say the invention of condoms alone encourages people to be promiscuous if they don't bother to use them? With or without protection, tons of people - whether out of curiosity, ignorance, or despair - are often more liable to think with their hormones instead of their heads. Yeah, maybe there's an overabundance of teenagers having casual sex out there, as well as a lot of alcohol use, a lack of parents taking the time to teach their kids how to be responsible - and you're blaming condoms? Hello??

All right, I'm done. (Well, not really... I'm suddenly having flashbacks to a certain musical number in "Monty Python's The Meaning of Life" now.) Okay, now I'm done.

**END RANT!**

Christine> LOVED the new fic! **applauds** Found Demona's plan for the Fifth Vial pretty interesting considering the recent debate. :)

Dags and Kitania> We're all turning 20 in the next two days??? Cool!! :)

I'd just like an opinion to verify my personal sanity - If someone calls you THREE TIMES in one night for no practical reason, wouldn't you run out of things to talk about? "What's up?" "Well, in the hour since you last called, I made my bed and ate leftover pizza for dinner..." A certain friend of mine has about as much of a life as I do - so I got a bunch of phone calls that ended in us running out of things to talk about and had no time to work on my TGS assignment. This is the same person who, when I was complaining that I had no time to write a decent ep because of real life (and partially because of him, but I didn't say it outright), suggested I fake my death online. Am I justified in smacking him upside the head?

Well, that's all for now...
Mandolin - [weird_web@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:36:31 PM
IP: ch164-10.apgea.army.mil

Let me correct myself..., I rarely have the "s" word with other people... don't ask... :o)
jackal
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:33:56 PM
IP: spider-wa012.proxy.aol.com

Demona- She's my buddie, sometimes I think she's my mom..., so this maybe a biased opinion..., When someone has been thur all the crap she has, her reformation should be painless. Causing more pain will only push her further away. Someone who should be going thur hell for all the crap they've done is Xanatos. Demona punishes herself, being lonely in your own misery is alwayz punishment enuf. Xanatos shows no sign of being sorry..., what's basically the only reason the Gargoyles got their castle back? Because Xanatos felt like he owed them. Not because he felt bad..., but because he felt like he owed them. See what I'm sayin?
As far as her sexuality goes..., I think it's typical for Demona to betray herself... if you get what I'm trying to say....

Kyryn- Okayness..., I understand.

Exin- Oh yeah. "that someone" was right, you are coolness. Hey, could you tell me alittle about yourself, I find you interesting..., you don't have to if ya don't want to, I'm just curious.
Where am I? Well, I was in here yesterday but I didn't have time to post, then after 11 pm, I hung out at the Waffle House until 3 because I was bored and I couldn't think of anywhere else to go.

Yet another Kennedy family tragedy- Is it safe to say the entire blood family is cursed yet?

Topic of Sin ::thunder rolls::- I can understand not liking the human race, if it was up to me I would have been something better like..... a woman. :o)
Or a dog..., of some sort...., wild dog..., in Africa... anyway, Condoms are deadly, decitful, sinful and disgraceful, and I've heard both female and male complain about them..., but you still got to use them. They may gaurd against diease and whatever, but don't expect them to stop a pregnancy....
Then again I really have no place to talk, because I rarely use condoms...., because I rarely have sex. Though I'm not sayin I haven't had unprotected sex in my lifetime.... But thank you all for reminding me that I need to get my HIV test next month, (never tell the health clinic you pratice vampyrism..., they'll want to test you like a damn rat).

Ok, I feel kinda bad now..., sad even, because I see how you people talk about the Kennedy family, and I'm worried that yall think the same thing about me. Though I'm not flithy rich, working is an option to me. I mean like..., I don't have financial freedom- ya know to buy anything and everything I see. But I have financial independence- if I manage my money carefully, I'm pretty much set. I don't know, I just feel bad. I just don't want yall to think I'm some snob or something...
JackaL
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:29:00 PM
IP: spider-wa012.proxy.aol.com

::pokes his head in::

Demona Debate> Umm, no comment.

Patrick and Kathy> I'm sorry to see you two go. TGS won't be the same without you. I really admire you two for the way you practically carried the series. You will be missed.

Christine> Going to read your new story later today. I'm betting its good.

Anyone who wants to see my Gathering photos, click on my name. A journal will be coming soon
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@aol.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:21:55 PM
IP: spider-wb083.proxy.aol.com

Kitainia > Your birthday is on friday, the 23rd?!? So is mine! I'll be 20yrs old too

Christine > I loved the story. it was good....

Pistoff > that was a great link. I HATE Jar Jar Binks!!!

well, see you all later
Dags - [Dagastino_2000@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:49:20 PM
IP: 216.1.24.207

Got a break from packing.

Christine: Great new 'fic. But on the Demona sexuality debate: *Two* humans? I make it three. Vito Draconi, remember? The one who considered himself to emerge from her bed with little more than a few scratches... "The Heist", if my memory serves me right? Apart from that, well, you do have a point...

So long, guys, come Friday morning, I'll be off (and I might learn a few amusing nerve point paralysis techniques, too).
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:07:53 PM
IP: mp-217-219-98.daxnet.no

Demona sexuality discussion > yeah, I can see this too ... if she could get over the ick-factor of being with a _human_ in the first place, it probably wouldn't make that much of a difference whether the human was male or female. In my stories, she's had two humans (both male, though), but for different reasons ... sort of by accident with Macbeth, and for the sake of power and torture with Nick Diamond. That's because my version of Demona is pretty darn twisted ...

But then, at the risk of opening up this ol' can of worms again, for all we know Demona and her rookery sisters could have engaged in harmless loveplay ... that very clear differentiation in the gargoyle society between breeding-sex and what Angela and Elektra called "frolicsome" gives them a lot of freedom.

Condoms > I agree with the advice to teens (and others besides) -- if you're gonna, use them!!!

Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 11:56:10 AM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

First of all:
Someone generalized:
Not everyone was upset when Elisa shushed Goliath with her hand, and not everyone thought she was refusing him. I didn't get upset, nor did I think she was refusing him. even if I had figured out they cared more for each other than just close friends, I wouldn't have thought she was refusing him.
Nor did I have the same reaction to the kiss at the end of HUNTERS' MOON, PART III as you said everyone did, if you said everyone had a reaction that was stated.

Doug-The Morrigan might look like the Banshee. I know what the Banshee looks like as Molly, but the Morrigan could too. So could Maeve, if she's escaped, or been set free by the Wierd Sisters.
Kitainia-I doubt you'll be done with LUNAR II: ETERNAL BLUE in a week. Some of those situations in that Game are challenging. There's one particular Boss that's a nightmare no matter how much you Level Up.

Kathy-What other way could you have meant?

Kaioto-Actually, there could be people who'd think of ethical implications before mating. Please don't generalize.

The Demona Debate-Oh, I figured you didn't mean anything that was a direct punishment, David. Again, if she does accept responsibility, it'll probably be one of the ultimate, if not the ultimate, turning points for her. That's probably going to come last.
Here's a thought.
Andrea's sister Helen disappeared when?
Around the time of the year CITY OF STONE took place in.
It would be rather interesting if Demona discovers Andrea's sister was one of the people she massacred when she was smashing all the statues, don't you people think?
As for later on, Airwalker, first of all, I don't believe it said Broadway was at the park, so maybe he wasn't mentioned. Demona was paying attention to the ones that avoided her or just acknowledged her, she probably didn't pay attention to the ones who wished to talk to her.
Even if they did keep away from her, they might be now because earlier on when she'd finally become stable again, she'd distanced herself, so the other people knew it was probably not too nice to get too close, or they might bother her.

Criticisms-I know this is a Comment Room, but still, I think the THE GARGOYLES SAGA Staff has been bashed a little too much lately. Especially at a Season Finale, which, if there's to be a following Season, which we know there will be, should have a lot of starting situations.

Elisa and Goliath-I haven't forgotten the original years, but they weren't in love that whole time. I don't seem to see any major arguments here about how they'll probably end up acting in character.
As for children, well, they could always have an 'Emeralda-Like Child' who could morph from human to gargoyle, and/or also be able to go into stone sleep if he/she wished.
Emeralda is a human, except she's composed of nanomachines. She was designed so she'd think exactly like a human, with no programming, and nothing, except with her nanomachines she can morph. So if Elisa and Goliath ended up with this type of child, he/she could morph, and do things like change structure of fingers, toes, elbows, knees, and the like, grow wings, and/or a tail, and even form the 'stone-like material' that gargoyles develop in response to ultraviolet radiation.
I might try that in a Fanfiction.
Then the Athenaverse'll have Christine, David/Belinda as genetically grown children, but hybrids, Athena, and Minerva, as 'copies' of Elisa, and another as a real child, but not a hybrid, so he/she could fit in well.
Heh.

"Its etched in my metampsychotic memory."-Fei/Id
XENOGEARS
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 11:14:51 AM
IP: 166.morristown-06-07rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

*storms in.*

Why can't any of these places give me a straight answer? "Your work is impressive, but we haven't come to a decision yet." D'oh!

Grail> It's a multi-religious artifact. Each religion has a version of it. It's pretty much a myth, IMHO. I use it solely as a plot device. Get over it.

Birth control> My opinion is that I'm not going to have some man tell me to have kids or not. That's one reason I didn't like the Catholic church. I have to take birth control for medicinal reasons, so I don't want to hear anyone preaching to me about how I'm going to hell. When you're "advised" not to plan on having any kids, or else you may develop ovarian or uterine cancer, you tend to listen. Health, IMHO, is more important than religion. *sigh.* Another pointless subject. If everyone's as closed-minded as to think condoms and birth control are evil, think again. Though not 100% effective, they still work. That's why I like the pagan way of thinking...IF IT HURTS OTHERS, DON'T DO IT! Dur....

Mutate Children> Hee hee hee...I agree; Coyote's Slash is a great example of mutate children...of course, I think I like Dylan Blacquiere's explanation the best...hee hee hee...I'm not at liberty to say, either. And don't think I actually let any of my mutates/clones/crossbreeds off that easily. Lilith is probably the luckiest of the group. Dweezil's deaf and mute and wingless, his brother Harvey's ADHD as well as not having any common sense whatsoever, Pete "Razor" Maza has an enlarged heart and dies just before the Clone Wars ends (he was 46), Renet MacKenzie pretty much went insane and killed herself soon after, their kid, Bastet...well, Bastet's a secret...of course, let's not forget the Elder Ones in their fits of insanity...hee hee hee...

Oaky, back to looking for a job...

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:57:11 AM
IP: ddialup-w-143.mint.net

Shantell-- hey there girl! Checked my em, saw you wrote but didn't see a question per se. Sent you an em. :) And your right on the money about Goliath and Elisa!!! Mike may not have time to put your story on the page until after Mon. He has a huge project. Sorry! But it will be put up!

Christine-- look forward to hearing from you. :)
Jenna - [the_Salome@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:57:09 AM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Aris> 19
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:44:29 AM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Tim P. "It was a joke!" I knew that. My bad for lumping all my S&P and relationship comments under one heading.

It does kind of go to show the difference between the way that people interpret the stories. If I'm watching a show or reading a series as long as they touch on a contining thread from time to time, I'll assume it's evolving even if it's not center stage. Other people need to see continuing existence of said thread to see any evolution of said plot.
Okay, that was confusing. I shouldn't multitask.

Demona and Gaydar? LOL!!! Sorry, it's just I've been proofing this fanfic by a new writer: Madame Destine ... can't say more here, but I find the coincidence of the situation really funny.

Yeah, I know. There is no such thing as co incidence.
Later all,
kathy
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:33:55 AM
IP: client18061.atl.mediaone.net

James Birdsong> Let me just mention my belief that no consentual sex is evil, regardless of whether it's done for procreative purposes or for simple fun, regardless of whether it's homosexual or heterosexual.

And the use of condoms should be encouraged. This may be a PG-13 room, but where I am concerned the following sentence is far more responsible and far less harmful than yours condemning them if children are indeed reading this. CHILDREN AND TEENAGERS, USE A CONDOM IF YOU ARE HAVING SEX! There.

How old are you by the way? (I'm not implying you are young, I'd just like to know)

Green Baron> Well... I don't believe in the Orthodox Christian Church either, or in any other known religion... Which is why I generally think that important relics of our past should be considered the property of all humanity. Any museum will do. I agree though that if past enemies become friends through the Grail, that would be the greatest miracle it has yet accomplished...
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:31:25 AM
IP: athe530-f052.otenet.gr

Thanks, Kitainia. I feel much better knowing why nobody was reading it. I have removed the empty file (assuming that it worked). After lunch, I'll try to post it again. If that doesn't work, I'll mail you a copy.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:20:55 AM
IP: 198.215.20.3

Like I said most of you don't understand. Condoms don't cause horneness, the invention of it encouraged it because people won't have to worry about impregnanting their partner. Of course children are a blessing. Don't you ever think differently. Now please let's not speak of this anymore. It is a pretty deep debate we should not continue. This is a pg-13 comment room after all.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:02:40 AM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

**enters the room, switching out the candles**

Briefly before I leave to work ...

SJ: Ahh, is *that* what it was? Trust me, I know about idiots installing spark plugs ... witness my Cadillac's original engine, where someone had driven the plug in cylinder #6 so deeply that the piston was striking the plug and hammering it flat!!

Shauntell: Hi right back atcha. Been a while since we've seen ya in here.

Kitainia: You think that's bad ... what about the cheeseball sitcom "Thanks" that CBS is promoting? (A sitcom about Pilgrims ... *THERE'S* some quality programming right there!!

Baby Fey: Another long-missing friend back amongst us! As for Ravyn, she managed to post once a week for three weeks, but has yet to come back since ... uhmm ... July 6th, I think, and ... well, I'll contact ye privately.
BTW ... Aaron's got pictures of his ... how'd *your* Demmie tat come out? :)

**stares briefly at both candles' flames for a moment, then turns and leaves the room to go to work.**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 09:26:39 AM
IP: modem60.i-is.com

Just checking in, might be the last time until next Friday.

Just so you know, guys, I'm going on a VACATION! To the weirdest place in Norway, where the small, cute, furry animals are likely to be ANYTHING but small, cute and furry, etc. And before you ask, no, there's not a nuclear plant in the area (not one that I know of, anyway). I am to spend a WEEK with my mutant friend, where he will teach me some of the finer points of nerve blocking, self defense and DOOM 2 Deathmatch (the last being mere honing).

See ya, gotta check out Christine's newest fic.

If nothing else happens, until next Friday.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoom.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 08:51:18 AM
IP: mp-217-241-186.daxnet.no

JackaL>Where are ya?

Comment to TG2000>The Spaceballs will kick everyone on Amiga!!!

....exin
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 07:29:51 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Hi all!!

Happy 30th Aniversary to the Apollo moon landing and to Neil Armstrong and co I am eternally envious:)

Goliath and Elisa:I'll agree with Shauntell on this one I like the way their relationship is going but I fully expect them to have problems with it in season three as well.

Killing Angela:I'm against it but it's a moot point seeing as Angela dies of old age in Requiem.

delphi/Stray/Sabrina/Diane:Welcome to the Nuthouse,here have a peanut*passes round a bag of peanuts*:)

SJ:"Mesa named Jar Jar Gollum! Mesa lead you to Sauron!">>AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!! KILL IT!!*pulls out a double barrel shotgun and emptys both barrels into Jar Jar Gollums face*I could pity Gollum in the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings but that abomination gets no mercy!:)

Kathy/Patrick Toman:I'm sorry to hear that your leaving the TGS staff.

SOROW:Sounds like you have a similar internet problem that I do(my ISP blows chunks)here have a complimentery *HUGBEES*:)

Goodnight all!!
Click my name to go to a website for a game that has been seriously sucking up my free time of late(just thought I'd share:))
Xanathar
Melbourne, victoria, Australia
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 07:18:17 AM
IP: 203.29.192.74

David G: Excellent points on Xanatos and the Goliath/Elisa thing. It would make things more interesting if the two of them kept changing their minds back and forth about the marriage, as long as it doesn't go on so long that it becomes a stale gimmick. And "Hot Lead and Coldsteel" is a great title!

Airwalker: That's a really interesting idea about the "alternate realities" thing. If that were true, the TGS future could turn out to be completely different from what was shown in Timedancer. That could be good or bad. It could mean that the actual future will have everybody getting along beautifully...or it could mean that the aliens Nokkar's people were fighting could show up any time and go ID4 on the whole world--or anything in between those two extremes. Personally, I really like the idea that the times and places Brooklyn visited might be alternate realities, and that the real future might actually be a blank slate. That would add a sense of fun, I think, because when we already know the future (and know that it can't be avoided no matter what) that actually takes something away from the Main TGS series. And I think it would be really interesting to see Brooklyn's reaction to something that happens now--but didn't happen in his version of future history. It would really throw him for a loop....

James: Ehhh ... either you're just joking about that, or there's something seriously wrong with you. Condoms do NOT cause horniness. How COULD it? You can't even put a condom on until you're ALREADY horny! And even then, it's like trying to put a miniature ski mask on your unit. There's no way something like that could cause horniness. And procreation is NOT all that sex is for. People do it for intimacy, caring, loving ... and, yes, pleasure. How else do you think the "world's oldest profession" got started? Face facts--humans are sexual beings. To try to suppress that is to go against nature. Show me a guy who never has sex, and I'll show you a priest who took a vow of chastity who could at any moment pop a rivet and molest the nearest altar boy--assuming he hasn't already done so.

Kaioto: You're right about the media. They're doing it to JFK, Jr., same as they did it to Princess Diana and countless others. What's wrong with just reporting the event and then moving on? That's the question the media people need to answer.

Oh, and I also agree with you about seeing Demona with a hangover. In fact, in my series, Demona is a ... ahem ... "heavy drinker." :) And she smokes, too ....

Christine: Awwww, damn, sorry about the rejection letter. :( I know how you feel. After more than six months of sending out query letters to agents, I finally got one who wants to see a couple chapters and an outline. ONE, after more than six months of searching. Makes me wonder why we even try... At any rate, good luck on your own search. I hope one of them has brains enough to agree to handle your book.

SJ: Actually, the "bi Demmie" thing sorta makes sense. Andrea would certainly be a good candidate for this, assuming Demona could ever allow herself to do the horizontal horny-dance with a human. (She doesn't have that problem in my series, at least not after Episode #7, heheheee!) One thing I'm certain of, though: I'm sure that a lot of her employees at Nightstone probably thinks she's a full-throttle lesbian. ;) And I agree completely about the "too much syrup" thing. A lot of the characters in my series are affectionate with each other, touching and cuddling and kissing and all, just as people do in real life, but there's no sense in dwelling on it for whole paragraphs. And the "Beloved" (or whatever variation) only comes up occasionally. Heh, some of the characters, like Otto and Purgatory, are developing a tendency to fool around in front of people just to offend them. (If you're familiar with these two characters, you'll know why many people would find it offensive. ;) There's nothing like having a little fun at the expense of all the prudes out there....

Kitainia: Glad you liked the Jar Jar thing. :) And I noticed the Back to School stuff too. I remember, back when I was in school, I would always become enraged because of those horrible "Back to School" ads. I hated school! From the very first day of Kindergarten to the insanely boring graduation ceremony, every last moment of it was excruciating. The only breaks from the torture came in the form of summer vacation--and the bastard corporations peddling their products would start their ad campaigns in the middle of July! Summer is only half over, and they have to start reminding kids that it'll soon be time to go back to hell. **shakes head** My school had a name, of course, but I always thought of it as Torquemada.... Oh, and happy birthday! :)
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 03:30:17 AM
IP: wire-18.koalas.com

Ah... must come in here and say something to James... but first

Coyote> Hey, how is Ravyn doing? The last time I saw her was late May at my graduation, she was walking around with her dad I think. Love to know if she's been able to get a hold of you.

James> Now I've talked with you in main for a while, I didn't like you at first and I've slowly tried to let certain grudges down. But plz, James, don't go off saying stupid things like that. I'm gonna tell you a story. My grandmother is catholic, a strict one, but after five kids, losing her health and becoming poor, she really didn't want anymore kids. She told me how she watched the Pope on TV condemning the use of birth control and saying "How does that MAN know what it's like to go through 5 labors and raise kids!!!". But she followed what he said nonetheless, and lost her teeth due to bad health, and following that lost her uterus. Kids are a blessing, but too many for a woman is too much for her system. Condoms do NOT cause horniness I can assure you of that, i can't imagine how any man or woman in their right mind would think that that horrid smell and feel is sexy. Reminds me of working at the hospital. However, the fact is that they prevent many pregnancies in which the partners do not feel prepared for children. And sex is NOT for procreation only, if God had intended it that way it would have no feeling whatsoever instead of giving us pleasure. And as for myself, I've doubted my ability to carry a child after my miscarriage, and I condoms prevent me from feeling the enormous pain of another miscarriage. Don't say condomns are evil. And humans are not evil, you must be jaded or something, because that's all you see. I walk around and see all these silly but nice things ppl do, and that parents love their kids. I can't see how humans are evil when they give out such beautiful emotions. Open your heart.

Well that was long winded enough... that's all.
Baby Fey
Sierra Vista, AZ
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 02:23:49 AM
IP: a21.pm3-32.theriver.com

Kitania> no prob, I live for these sudden changes, keeps the comedic responses sharp, I just want to return the favor on my next post
shogun raptor
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:54:16 AM
IP: miami-trans1.firn.edu

David G: I found your problem. Your story wasn't submitted to the archive. The file is there, but there's only blank space. No text. It looks like GFW is having problems, hope Chris gets them fixed soon. In the meantime, if you want to e-mail me a copy of your story, the address is below. I hope to recieve the fic and be able to comment on it soon.
Kitainia - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:38:16 AM
IP: pool-209-138-213-213.dlls.grid.net

**VIOLENT RP HERE, WITH APOLOGIES TO KING OF THE HILL FANS**

"Ravens or whatever the hell you call yourselves," Hank Hill stammers as he aims his flamethrower at Doug and Kitaina's party, "our boss has ordered that you die." "Chicken-thigh," Buckley's demon agrees, the fires of hell surrounding his form as he advances on the party. "Let's get these guys!" Luann yells, Peggy nodding in agreement. The Ravens raise their weapons and fire to scatter the enemy Borg. Buckley goes down first, consumed by several blasts from Shap's shotgun and a stream of holy fire cast by Orion. "You killed Buckley's angel!" Luann screams, suddenly freaking out as she fires her machine gun like a madwoman. "That was no angel," Orion says calmly as he dodges the bullets. "A man like your boyfriend would have to spend hundreds of years in Purgatory before he'd even have a chance." "Die!" Luann wails, but before she can draw a bead on Orion she is blown away by a rocket from Kitainia and an explosive arrow from Shauna hitting her in the same instant. "Shut up," Shuana snaps, pulling out another arrow and aiming it at Hank. "Hank," Peggy whines, "they just shot our niece. What are we going to do about it?" "Hang on, Peggy," Hank declares, "I'm thinking of something." The Ravens take advantage of his dimwittiness and step forward, continuing to fire. Peggy yells for reinforcements and instantly hidden doors in the passageway open, releasing a horde of Borg Gungans. "Kill the Ravens!" the fat Gungan king shouts as his warriors rush to attack. Doug and the others sigh, turning to face this sudden new threat. As they are battling it, Kitainia makes a post.

**RP SUSPENDED**

Hi everybody. Distressing news. This week Doug and I are seeing signs that the summer is almost over. <fumes> These include annoying Back to School sales and repeated commercials for new fall programming. None of the latter looks very good, IMO. WB's new show "Movie Stars" seems to have terribly cliched plots and humor, Fox's "Get Real" seems to be yet another teen angst and ego drama (like we need any more of those!), and their other new show "Action" looks just plain awful and boring. I'm not even going to start in on the show that promises to be THE MOST egotistical angst-ridden show of the fall- Time of Your Life with Jennifer Hewitt. IMO, she is not an actress worthy of her own series. Weren't the IKWYDLS movies enough? <sighs> At least Buffy, X-Files, and Ally McBeal are being renewed, and we're getting the Angel series. Hope they're entertaining this season. <fingers crossed> Nothing else looks like it will be worth our viewing time. <sighs again>

**BEGIN SPOILER-FILLED REVIEW OF BLAIR WITCH PROJECT**

Doug and I finally saw this movie today. SJ and anyone else who liked it, I'm sorry, but we're going to give it a disappointing review. We did not think it was that good. Yeah, some of the moments in it were slightly unnerving, but nowhere near as frightening as the hype made us think they'd be. The plot was easy to follow, but at the same time it didn't flow well from scene to scene. None of the characters was well-developed or very likable, Doug and I found ourselves waiting for them to die. Worse of all was the convoulted trek through the woods that ended so abruptly and unclimactically we nearly demanded our money back. Blair Witch was not a good film, we're only glad we went to see it because we know this now. <sighs> Hope someone with better appreciation for movies can give it a more detailed review, this is the best we can do. 2/10, thumbs down.

**END BLAIR WITCH SPOILERS AND REVIEW**

Stray, Sabrina, Diane: Welcome, newcomers. Hope you enjoy it here.

Pistoff: You're welcome, and thanks for the funny Jarjar site.

**BEGIN SPOILERS FOR SEEDS OF CHANGE**

I enjoyed this episode very much, I think it makes a good season finale for Gargs and Pendragon. Tied up a few loose ends that were still dangling after this season, and set up many new subplots for the next one. Arthur's frame-up was the most interesting of the plots set up, IMO, I hope to see a lot more on it. A close second was the Gathering of the Gargoyles, I'm looking forward to seeing that as well. This ep had great dialogue and character development (especially between Elisa-Xanatos-Goliath, Broadway-Angela-Demona, and Dracon-Vince), and I also liked the well-done artwork a lot.

There were some bad points too. For one thing, the ep had so many subplots mixed together that I had to think of them as happening seperately in order to follow the action. IMO, this should not have been done. If subplots are not directly related in some clear manner, they should not take place in the same episode. It disrupts the flow of events too much. I hope that next season Gargs and Pendragon will have their action seperated again so both series can be given their due amount of stories and clearly flowing plots. That was my main problem with this episode, other than that I think it was very well-written.

As for the Goliath and Elisa romance, I don't think I'll get involved in the debate over its speed. Things are happening a little quickly, but as Kathy and Paul have stated, that is partially due to recent events and the characters involved. I can easily see a fast proposal happening between Elisa and Goliath, and I also know that their engagement and whether or not it will go through will be a major plot point next season. All the possible difficulties of a human-garg couple will also surely be addressed. I have faith that the TGS Staff will pay attention to them all.

I too enjoyed seeing Demona get drunk in this episode. Better that than go crazy over hearing about Goliath and Elisa's engagement. I look forward to seeing her further reactions to it. :) Enjoyed the Andrea-Demona flashbacks and development too. Overall the episode gets a 7/10 in my book, thumbs up.

**END SPOILERS FOR SEEDS OF CHANGE**

Demona in the Future: I agree that there should be some gargs who at least sympathize with the things she did if not support them. Hope we see those in future eps.

Birthdays: Glad to know a lot of people have theirs coming up, we'll have to celebrate. Mine is this Friday, btw. I'll be 20. Hope everyone remembers to congratulate me this year. :)

JFK Jr. and Passengers: I'm sorry they're dead, now can you media people please forget about them and concentrate on other more important issues? There, enough said.

Green Baron: Alright, maybe they're episcopalian. However, their attitude just seems a little Baptist-like to me.

Robby: Thanks for the Calvin info.

Kathy, Patrick: Sorry to hear you two are leaving the TGS Staff, thanks for all the good work you shared with us while on it. I hope you will still hang out here and share your wisdom and good comments. Don't be strangers, friends. :)

Kaioto: Sounds like you've got some interesting story ideas up your sleeve. <grin> Hope you go through with them, you'd definitely get some feedback from yours truly.

Jaden: Congrats on getting this close to finishing your summer school.

Paul: Good news. Lunar 2 arrived at Gubio's house today. We'll start playing it real soon and hopefully will be able to give you a review in a week or so. :)

Ironwolf: Interesting creativity demon with Broadway. I can't see it happening, though. Maybe in an alternate universe but not Gargs or TGS.

Shogun: $ Joey as in Joey from Dawson's Creek. Sorry if Doug and I messed up your plans by adding members to the annoy-u squad. If you want us to take care of them for you, just let us know. Keep up the good RPs. $

David G: Okay, sounds like I should read that story of yours. I will do so as soon as I get the time. I know from living with one how crazy a writer can be driven by lack of feedback. :)

Christine: I'll read your new story very soon, too, and have comments on it in my next post.

James Birdsong: You seem pretty messed-up to me, pal. But that's only my opinion. Hope you read Kaioto and SJ's responses to you, I agree very much with the points they express.

SJ: Thanks for the continued entertainment info, I'm getting more and more hyped up about the Lord of the Rings films thanks to you. I'm getting very worried about the X-Men film, though. No way Ray Park should play Toad. He's too good a fighter for that. A better role, IMO, would be Pyro or Sabertooth.

<sighs> My opinion of some Hollywood directors sinks again. Oh well, that's all for now. Good night, everybody.

**RP RESUMES**

The Ravens have by now taken out all the enemy Gungans. "Lose some weight, Fatso," Elena snaps as she and Daria both use their assault rifles to ventilate the king. "Alright, you ugly dumbass unloving excuse for a Texan!" Doug yells at Hank Hill as the last stupid alien crumbles. "Now it's your turn." "Be careful, boy," Hank growls back as he advances on Doug with his flamethrower held ready and Peggy guarding his flank. "Those are fighting words." "We know that," Kitainia snaps, advancing to Doug's flank and firing a stream of laser fire that takes down Peggy before she can do anything but scream. "No!" Hank cries, his face steaming red as he charges at the Ravens. "Stand aside, everyone," Doug tells the others as he gets ready to meet Hank's charge. "I got this guy." The Ravens nod and all step back to let Doug and Hank fight it out as the screen goes blank.

**RP OVER, BUT WILL BE CONTINUED**
Kitainia - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:31:59 AM
IP: pool-209-138-213-213.dlls.grid.net

Oops!! I pushed the submit button and I'm not even done! HE HE.
Anyway, I was pleased with the way it was handled. But I do still agree that there are some problems that are yet to be solved between them. And they will take time, but not a very long time. Greg even said so.
Goliath and Elisa would evidently discuss things, disagree and then break up. But they wouldn't stay apart for too long, and would be back together. He even said he did see them engaging in a sort of ceremony, and that he did see them raising a child. How that is too be handled in TGS is yet to be seen. All we can do is speculate, hope and wish.
I for one liked the comment someone made about helping Elisa become pregnant with Goliath's child, but Greg still said he didn't see them going in that direction. Adoption could work, but then there are problems there too.
There are a lot of things I hope to see happen. But even if they don't, oh well..
I'm gonna head out now, but before I go, I'ld like to say hi to, Robby, Jenna, and the TGS staff members.
Jenna> I've got another Q for ya. I"ll send it to ya in an email. And thanks for your compliments on my artwork. :)
Later everybody!!
Shauntell - [sgargoyle9@aol.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:27:00 AM
IP: spider-we021.proxy.aol.com

Hey everybody!!
I'ld like to comment on the Goliath an Elisa debate. In my opinion it moved right along smoothly. In fact, I'ld say, "IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!!"

Shauntell - [sgargoyle9@aol.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 01:19:56 AM
IP: spider-we021.proxy.aol.com

Preciously Toku Kaioto. I'm glad at least you understand. Most don't.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:52:52 AM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

*LOL* Obviously not enough if you could actually pick that out ... and if you can plum that all out of your mind in some warped effort to clense your delicate sensibilities you are certainly qualified to join the Triliberal Commission, "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil". And walk with willing ignorance down the primrose path ... *L* the road to hell is paved with self-imposed ignorance ...

Have fun James. You know what they say. Ignorance is bliss. You must be extremely happy at the moment. :)
Toku Kaioto
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:38:58 AM
IP: 1cust16.tnt1.brockton.ma.da.uu.net

***BEGIN RP****
SJ and Wilek's teams are busy fighting the army of Borg Gungans, and they are doing quite nicely, seeing as the Gungans are pretty pathetic when it comes to fighting.
As Forfexx began to artistically carve into the aliens with the blades he had morphed his hands and forearms into, Djedi mowed down another of the creatures. Anoth, Jake, and Teri were working together, forming an effective team as they too took turns wiping out the aliens.
SJ was busy doing his Muhammad Ali impression on one unfortunate Gungan. "And a right jab! And a left! Woo hoo! I am the greatest!" Just then, in a defensive move, the Gungan shot out it's long tongue and slapped SJ hard across the face with it. The young scientist was momentarily stunned. "What the...." Sensing the upper hand, the Gungan lunged, his hands groping for SJ's throat. SJ grabbed the alien by it's tunic, and as he fell back, he drew his feet up and kicked them into the Gungan's stomach. As he maintained his grip, he fell onto his back, but by thrusting his legs up he was able to flip the Gungan backwards several feet....where the Hounds pounced and mercilessly ripped into the alien with great eagerness.
****PAUSE RP***

Entertainment News!!!!
Lord of the Rings Fans: Apperently, more info is being leaked about the films, even though New Line Cinema has recently stated that they want the leaks to stop (yeah, like that's going to happen...). Word has it that actor Billy Boyd is going to play the part of Pippin......Ian Holm, veteran actor (who was recently seen as Priest Vito in "The Fifth Element"), may play the part of Bilbo......although he's denied it, it looks as if Jeffrey Combs (Weyoun!!!) will play the part of Wormtongue (I love this--Jeff Combs is one hell of an underrated actor!) .....and Peter Jackson, the co-writer/Director of the trilogy, has said that the final designs for Gollum (he'll be all CGI) are in and approved. No word on what exactly he'll look like, but he's been described as "not too fishy or froggy".
All I know is, if they get Ahmed Best to voice Gollum, I will go on a homicidal rampage, the likes of which our dear beloved Demona has not even seen. "Mesa named Jar Jar Gollum! Mesa lead you to Sauron!"

X-Men News: Well, Roy already said this in the other CR, but it looks as if Ray Park may play Toad in the upcoming X-film. I'm torn about this--I like Ray, he's a cool guy and one great stuntman/martial artist. But TOAD??? He's about the lamest of the lame-ass X-Men villains! Can't they get Juggernaut? Or Blob? Hell, even Pyro is cooler than him! Toad is just a funky-looking little dude that jumps a lot. Ray doesn't deserve such a lowly role.

Preacher Movie: Or actually, the likelihood there won't be one. Garth Ennis, creator/writer for the comic, recently said that, while an accepted script is out there, no one is willing to invest in the movie because of its content. Unfortunately, I agree with him. If people are willing to get in a pissing war over Kevin Smith's "Dogma", this movie will be neutered by the censors before it ever sees a theater projection room. *Sigh* And I was really looking forward to Arseface's bigscreen debut....

Greg answered my questions!!!! Well, the only thing I really learned was that my "dad" is in his late forties. *sigh* I hate it when Greg gets cryptic.

Demona and Andrea: At the risk of starting yet another controversial topic, I've always suspected that Demona could be bisexual (uh-oh, somebody alert JackaL, another gargoyle's sexuality is in question!). Seriously. Don't automatically go "no way" and assume she's strictly hetero. Even though Demona is not my favorite character, there is a certain....sensuality to her. She may prefer males, but I think that Demona could "go the other way". My gaydar is going off a bit with Demmie....

Goliath & Elisa: When did everyone assume that I don't like the two of them together? I really don't mind them getting hitched, or what have you....I just said once that it's often easy, in fan fiction, for people to go waaaaaay too overboard with the romance. Romance is nice, romance adds to the story, but if you use the words "my love" or "my beloved" more than 10 times in half as many sentences, or go into long, descriptive paragraphs as to exactly how Elisa is positioned in Goliath's loving embrace, than IMO you're moving out of the realm of Gargoyle fan fiction and into the dark, dirty, and frightening world of harlequin romance novels (oh my God, I just had a disturbing image of Fabio costumed and posing as Goliath....). I like romance as much as the next guy, but too much syrup is too sweet for me. I think that what the TGS staff is doing with their relationship (either moving too fast or just right, depending on your point of view) is interesting at worst and wonderful at best.
As for them having kids, hell, I'd even offer my services for half the usual fee. Although I don't think Goliath would be too keen on a Sevarius handling the genes of his future son/daughter to be....;)

On a related note, as for Talon and Maggie having children, I like the way Coyote has handled this in G:CM. Slash, their son, is at least mildly retarded, if my memory serves me. I would hypothesize that all of their children could conceivably be degenerative in some way. Sevarius mutated them after all--they're genes are, in a sense, tainted. Any offspring could be horribly deformed, or at the very least, retarded. Mutations are not pretty, folks.

James: I hate to say this, but you've got some issues. You hate humans? Too bad, you're one of them.
How can you be against condoms? While they may not be the best protection, at least they *are* a form of protection. As for the "sex only for procreation" bit.....God, you sound like the Catholics. [No offense to the Catholics, but I have no clue as to where they're coming from with their whole "sex only to reproduce, and also no birth control" position. I can understand the whole "be fruitful and multiply" concept, it's in the Good Book, but come on! There's roughly 6 billion of us, with no decrease in sight. We're gonna run into overpopulation issues real quick, and you're telling people to not use birth control and have like, half a dozen kids? And can't sex be something more than just the task of procreating?] Condoms don't make people horny. People are horny enough as they are, they don't need a piece of rubber to excite them even more.
And James, how can you say it sickens you that they prevent STDs? While I do think there is a certain irresponsibility associated with STDs (such as people foolishly engaging in unprotected sex), and I do agree with Kaioto that this modern day age of "sexual exploration" can be very harmful (cause face it, there are a lot of irresponsible people ou there), I can not say I'm against the treatment (and hopefully, cure) of any and all STDs. Have you ever seen someone in the final stages of AIDS? Do you know what a horrible death that is? Regardless as to whether that person slept with everything they could get their hands on, no one deserves that kind of death. No one. You need to think before making statements like that, whether you hate humans or not.

Coyote: Well, I changed the sparkplugs, and it seems to be running smoothly now. A neighbor told me that the reason the plug was so charred was that the genius mechanic I had tune up the car a while back had never put the plug in right. Apperently, it was probably in the head crooked, allowing part of the threads to get burned pretty badly. Whatever. As long as it's fixed.

The Grail: I take no offense to it not being a Christian legend. I never remember anything about the Grail in the Bible anyway. Still, the whole tie-in with Jesus adds a bit to the mystique of the Grail, I thought. And it adds a little something to the legend by making it not just an Arthurian relic, but a holy one as well, IMO.

***RESUME RP*****
Wilek and Jar Jar Borg faced off against each other. "I've been waiting for this for a long time," Wilek snarled. "You just about ruined an otherwise decent movie....that I have not really seen....but I have heard about it! Your hide is mine!"
"Oh yeah? Mesa tinkin' mesa gonna kicka yo assa!" Jar Jar laughed. He thrust his spear at Wilek, but the blue gargoyle was far to quick for him. Wilek lashed out with his tail, catching the Gungan in the midsection. Jar Jar doubled over, the breath momentarily knocked out of his body. Wilek belted him across the face with one of his large taloned hands. Jar Jar attempted a sidekick which connected with Wilek's ribs, but the blow had little force behind it and Nereus experienced no pain. Wilek executed a perfect thrust kick, sending the alien's head snapping to one side brutally. Several more body blows followed, with various parts of Wilek's anatomy, elbows, fists, knees, etc., slamming painfully into the Gungan's head and torso.
"I tire of you," Wilek said calmly. He drew his lightsaber, and activated it, staring at the blade happily. He turned to Jar Jar Borg with a wicked gleam in his eyes. Then, with a quick flick of his wrist, Jar Jar was only several smoking pieces of Gungan meat lying on the floor.
Upon seeing their leader fall, the rest of the small Gungan army seemed to give up the fight. Within moments, the rest of them were either dead or unconscious, with the heroes ready to move on to what they were sure would be the next step in their perilous mission.
SJ walked up to Wilek, and observed the now dead Gungan leader still smoldering at the gargoyle's feet.. "So....how was it?"
Wilek sighed contently. "Wonderful. Quite a catharsis, really. The universe feels cleansed."
"I envy you."
****END RP FOR NOW****


Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:35:44 AM
IP: 207-172-64-151.s151.tnt17.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

I just read Seeds of Change (ignores Kaioto's post cause he cursed)
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:30:23 AM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Fanfic Update --
"The Guardians: Alchemist" is now posted on my site. Here's a teaser ...
~~
Amber Maza took a deep breath. "He's dying, Alex. My father is dying."
~~
Also on the site, Tana's Jericho pic! Sorry for the delay!
Find them both from the New Stuff page! (clickie-clickie)

In other news > welp, got rejection letter numero uno in my quest to find a new agent to handle Black Roses. So now I'll be moving right along to the next on the list ...

Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:29:02 AM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

On the note of the Holy Grail: It depends entirely on what you are looking for, and what you are looking into. Arthur and his Camelot existed historically before the days of the knight as we picture them. Full plate armor and towering citadels were not aspects of the Britain in which Arthur was supposed to have lived, but the romantic notions of a far more modernized France of Mallory’s “Le Morte de Arthur.” Arthurian legends like Mallory’s were drawn up as Romances in Christian Europe. They reflect many errors in technological placement as well as facts. The only historical records of Arthur come from the Battle of Baden Hill and a simple Latin phrase of a handful of words summing up to, “He was a leader of battles.” The Grail legend in England during Arthur’s historical time, however, as Cryway pointed out, would’ve been another meshing of Roman Catholicism and native pagan traditions. However, when the tail of the Grail was written, the writers would presumably thought little of passe pagan cultures from their position in a more “civilized” age as well as crafted their tails to suit a decidedly Christian Europe. Hence, the Grail as a Christian relic. It is very pointless to argue on the nature of the “Real” Grail, as the entire Quest was part of a Romantic Legend. From the perspective of the authors who dictated the reality of the stories, hwoever, it was generally the Cup of Christ. Lucas’s “Last Crusade” has a very plausible background holding true to the traditions and style of the Romances of Camelot in their original forms.

The Grail itself, if it existed today as a true Relic, would likely embody the idea and powers and graces of sacrifice, blessing, and life-giving from many Faiths, and would belong to everyone in quite the same manner. I’d recommend the Hagias Sophia, myself as a fitting resting place. A Catholic Cathedral, stayed with the Greek Orthodox Church during the Great Schism, and became a Mosque during the Ottoman rule over Istanbul (not Constantinople, been a long time gone, no you can’t go back …) and is now being restored brilliantly as a museum.

“Take this cup, and drink from it. This is my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for ~ALL~, so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.” – Liturgica Eurchristiae Romana.

JFK Jr. : Now I’m anti-Kennedy as much as the next man in the political, and social rings. But I can’t kick around a corpse like that. Jack Jr. was 3 years old when his father was Assassinated. He watched them wheel that coffin by in front of millions mourning, and saluted right along with the honor guard. He grew up in lavish comfort and political quagmire. He had any senate seat in the country basically at a whim, and could even have taken the presidency, because politics is all about the media. What does he do? Does he sit on all that money like some miser and hide? Does he go psycho and kill people over his childhood trauma? Does he spend it all crashing cars while drunk or doing lines? Does he go out for public office and start telling people what to do? No, sorry, none of the above. He gets a business, a job, and actually does something remotely resembling work. He donates to and supports charitable causes and even dares to criticize other members of the Kennedy Clan for their reproachable behavior.

He did something stupid one day, and he died in an accident. I’ll admit that he wasn’t perfect, and that the media is so hyped about this it makes me want to puke, but I’ll not let the deceased’s name be sullied after the fact just because it interfered with my TV viewing. If there is anyone to be angry at, it is the media. Like carrion birds, they are stripping the still warm flesh off the carcass of another victim of circumstance because he was a celebrity. Just because he was born more well off than us doesn’t mean he was automatically a bad person. Think about it this way, do you think their weren’t nights when John Jr. laid awake as a kid and thought to himself how much he’d rather have had a normal dad, than a President? How much he’d rather have his father simple, living, and caring for him than famous, rich, and dead? I’m not saying I knew the man’s mind. What I am trying to say is despite all the media crap, John-John was still a human being, just like you or I, and deserves the respect and human dignity that comes with that. A little respect of the dead. When we throw stones, let’s stone the media crows, and stop mutilating a corpse.

**Possible Spoilers**
Well, I finished reading “Seeds of Change” I can’t say that I’m disappointed in any way. Demona gets another chance to seem more like a dynamic person and less like a static psychopath. I’d have to say that I’ve been waiting to see Demona hung over. I’m quite amused.

Elisa and Goliath: Well, everyone tosses in their two cents and we may have enough to pay for parking, eh? Well, I personally think that it wasn’t too bad. I mean, had this been played up totally, watching every detail of their romance for the last 3 years, we’d have been whining about how it had gone from “Gargoyles” to the “Goliath and Elisa Romances” so I can’t complain about not seeing the entire progress of the relationship. Sure, there are going to be problems and complications, it is like that in any relationship. Sure, they are being somewhat impulsive, but they are soul mates who’ve had to wait for a very long time. I think I have a glimmer of understanding what that is like. All in all, I can’t wait to see how Elisa’s family copes. Not everyone is going to take an inter-species mating as well as the Clan has.
**End TGS discussion**

James Birdsong: Oh, God give me strength, I shouldn’t touch this one with a ten foot pole …

Condoms are not evil. They are just objects. It is the way that people act about sexual relationships, careless and irresponsibly, that generates “badness.” We live in a culture where sex is seen as a personal, private, and individual choice that is no one’s business. We however, also live in a culture that likes to forget the responsibility attached to getting what we want. Condoms are not highly effective contraceptive. They also have a defect rate for preventing STDs. I don’t have any untainted figures with me on my comp at the moment, but I’ve seen a lot of them. Damn, but I know no self-respecting sky diver would jump out of a plane if those defect rates ran on parachutes, I’ll tell you that much.

What makes the problem worse is the lack of foresight people show, especially at my age, when it comes to sexual behavior. Pregnancy is not something to be taken lightly be either partner, nor is abortion a casual option to remove an “incovenience” from two persons’ lives. It is a matter of life and death, not a game or something fun to do. It is also one of the main roots at ruined relationships. Suicides and cyclical violence and abuse are all heavily immersed in the quagmire of modern sexuality. The 90’s attitude towards sexual “exploration” is a lot of feel good BS, like most of the 90s. And, like most of the feel good BS, when reality comes a knocking, it ain’t a pretty sight. But still, people would rather act impulsively now, with quick fixes (in both senses of the word) than lasting progress. The ethical dimensions of human sexuality come down to looking to the long term effects on both partners and potential lives as well. Any standard ethical module would tell you that it should be saved for marriage/committed monogamy, but no one has ever claimed we thought about ethical implications anywhere close to the amount we think about sex.

Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:04:32 AM
IP: 1cust16.tnt1.brockton.ma.da.uu.net

Goliath and Eliza> Mateing is gargoyle word but I don't think they will be procreate. They aren't compatable so there is no point. Gargoyles know this. I don't understand why humans don't see logic. Condoms are evil! Sex should be for producing children only and for no other reason. Condoms must be the devil's invention. It invites lust and horneness. They don't allow pregnancy. I know that is the point as well as prevent STDs and that sickens me. I hate humans. Yep IRL I hate people but I am not a nutbag.
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:32:28 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

Airwalker> oh *s*. Well I haven't been able to read Seeds of Change yet myself cause these past few days I been doing stuff IRL namely my astep test and physical. At the end of Summer I'm going into the Air Force. I still have to have my pych analysis though but I worry not. I know I'm sane. Most here aren't but I am
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:27:54 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

A note to all of the staff members leaving TGS, or those that left last year... are you still going to read TGS? Or are y'all going to lose interest in it now that you are no longer involved with it?
Ash
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:21:44 PM
IP: yktnsk01d01010151.sk.sympatico.ca

think I'll stick to Lilac and Ophelia. Sure, they don;t match but I like both and it'll make me stand out.

Recently in my life: Aww, I knew the mormons would try to convert me. But it took a month of living in this state for them to notice me. How sweet. I kinda just wanna put the bishop (I think that's what he called himself) in my living room and just debate Wicca/Mormon. Geez, I love religon debates. And abortion, and pro death penalty, and every other conversation no-no topic. I was kinda hoping he'd ask to come in with his friend and just talk. But no, mom was in the shower and he said he'd come back (^_^!!).
I miss E-chan. The funny thing is we barely date but this is the longest, best, relationship I have.
Evil phone was out for two days. I got a ML and this, it's hard enough. About 1/2 way through here and after 80+ HAD TO READ E-mails, 5 had to replies. And my mother, in the background, talking of odd things that keep me away from finishing everything so I can get off and talk with her. *sighs* Parents.

Okay, on topic:
******SPOILERS, KINDA, SORTA, BEEN MENTIONED BEFORE SO IT'S NOT REALLY SPOILING MUCH ANYMORE IS IT?********

Goliath & Elisa:
I hate how this was done. So many people have pulled this off SO much better without tons of follwing stories to add to the plot slowly. It felt like they slammed two seasons worth of time to let them mature, accept, grow, into one ep. Don't get me wrong, I was with everyone else to when Elisa touched Golitah's lips, basically rejecting him, with shouts of NO, DARN IT! And rejoicing when they DID, finally, kiss.
Now I read this from a fic writer's POV and think, "Damn that was fast." I think it needed more tension, like Elisa saying, "I need to think about this." Then doing flashbacks of John, and the Mirror Ep, and the Kiss, and many other aspects. Maybe letting it be a major suprise like (for many people) "No." or, "When Demona can accept this" (She cares for Angela too much to shake up her family like this?) Her family, talking with Talon or Beth, both giving different reactions and suggests, tearing her apart more. until it seemed she DID juggle all the options and made a wise choice, instead of jumping into this, like; "Brooklyn's mated, Angela mated, Golitah, let's join in on the secret!" She doesn't even realize little things yet, like where she'll live (If she lives in the castle I will be HUGELY disapointed) how people will react (People WILL find out, they always do) Or even if she could STAY with Goliath. They might not be . . . compatable. Would Goliath "let" her give in on these urges with another human male? Things like this she hasn't considered.
WAY too rushed. Elisa is a think-first-if-I-have-the-time, but-in-a-pinch-will-blow-off-your-head-and-feed-it-to-Cagney kinda person (to me). To me this blows away her characterisation. I think I'll contribute it to moods swings and that time of the month and Goliath's lucky timing.
**********END! FINALLY!*********

The subject no one seems to notice but I cannot seem to get out of my head: Iago and Hyena. Don't they JUST make the perfect couple (Threesome if you add Jackel, but *I* think there's some incest going on in that family.)?? Robots, evil, hate gargoyles (the manhatten clan, whatnot), the pitter patter of little tin feet just keep echoing in my head! Now tell me, am I just too right on, far off, or insane?

Ja ne,

Amy da tigger - [Tigeres57@aol.com]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:15:42 PM
IP: spider-ti043.proxy.aol.com

<---- "Oh, God. I wish I hadn't eaten all those burritos."






Coyote ; <<<That bit about the Kennedys sounds suspiciously like a Gallagher routine, friend. :)>>> You’re probably right. The day all this started that joke popped into my head and I couldn’t remember it came from. I got a bunch of his tapes in my room (mostly from the mid-80’s).

Kathy: It was a JOKE! I thought the bit about “Eyes Wide Shut” would let you in on it. I’m quite familliar with the S&P. Sorry to hear you leave TGS

Patrick Toman: Sorry to hear that you’re leaving TGS too. “Jerry Springer for Congress?” Heh. Cool. Maybe after we get him in, Madelin Albright and Janet Reno will start wrestling around b-tch slapping each other, so that the Secret Service agents will have to break them up. Next thing you know, all of the other Congressmen, Senators, and all the people watching the event on CNN will start chanting, “JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!”
Tim P. - [dthphipp@pionet .net]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 10:59:10 PM
IP: s13-onawa.pionet.net

DIANE - Welcome!


PATRICK - You wrote: [I notice a tendancy for many people to read a lot into each sentence in stories that are set in the future - much more so than most people do with the present day stories or the ones set in the past. I think it might go
back to that wonderful little paranoia that the original series episode "Future Tense" created.]

The major difference in reading into future set stories and FUTURE TENSE is that FUTURE TENSE was all just one big dream that Puck created to play with Goliath's sanity while the scene's we've been shown of the TGS future are the actual TGS future. So when I read for example about a uniform rejection of Demona by Gargoyles in 2168 except her daughter and someone who has no idea who she is, I give it more value than I would to a prediction of Hudson's death in a battle with Evil Xanatos in a Fey induced hallucination.

I understand that the TGS universe is a multiverse containing alternate realities. But at the same time the main universe that we are dealing with still follows that you can't change history rule which means that the future we have seen is set since the future is technically someone elses history.

So those future scenes that we have seen have more believability as definite fact in the TGS universe than the dream of FUTURE TENSE did.


A QUESTION TO THE TGS STAFF - Is it possible that the Phoenix Gate was able to transport Brooklyn to alternate realities? If it was then I could see a sort of freedom being given from the rule that the future is set since it's someone's history. Is it possible that the future we have seen is just the future of an alternate reality? So all that information Brooklyn has might not really be valid and it might not come to pass. It opens up the idea of free will from Brooklyn's perspective since the future he has been to doesn't have to be THE future.


You wrote: [How can we really argue, for example, that Broadway's characterization is somehow flawed in the present when compared to a story set 50 years in the future? Broadway could have any number of reasons to seem unhappy to see her, the cause of which could just as easily predate the scene by 5 days as it could by 50 years.]

You make a very good point here. He could be angry with her for any reason. The problem with that is that the text specifies that his distaste with her is due to a lingering distrust he has of her. It says:

"Demona was disappointed, but could hardly argue. Broadway was her daughter's mate after all, and Demona had to admit that he made a fine mate at that--and a good father as well--in spite of his lingering distrust of her."

But what distrust? In this most recent episode he doesn't seem to have any distrust of her. I understand that Demona saved his life earlier so that would help ease tension between them but he doesn't show any evidence of any distrust whatsoever. He seems completely at ease with her. His whole worry in this episode is if she would like his cooking or not. It's possible that something might happen further down the line but the impression I got when I read the story was that he still had distrust of her from those years he spent fighting her and her schemes to destroy humanity.
Airwalker
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:54:58 PM
IP: 206.new-york-18-19rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Welcome, once again, to David G's Obnoxiously Long Post: the meandering edition.

First of all, Xanatos and punishment:
I've been thinking about this all day now, and here are my tenative conclusions. First of all, we need to establish Xanatos' motivations. For instance, we know Demona wanted to destroy humanity as an act of revenge, and in a misguided effort to protect her own people. All her actions procede logically from this goal. Xanatos is different. In his past, we find a boy who grew up in a good, but relativly poor home. He wanted more than his parents had, more success, more power, more possibilities. Had he never gone back in time to set himself up, he probably would have gone to a nice college on an academic schollarship, become a financial lawyer, and made millions while developing an ulcer.

Instead, someone mysterious showed up on young David Xanatos' doorstep and gave him the seed money for his vast empire. He grew into a man who believed that he should be able to have anything he wanted. Essentially, his driving emotion was greed, or rather, privilige. He didn't really want everything, he just thought he should be able to have anything. Since he was smart, rich, and driven, he was usually right.

The evils he committed were all based around this selfishness. Xanatos didn't want to hurt people the way Demona did, he just didn't care if he hurt people. I actually believe that's worse in some ways. At least Demona had a sense of misplaced righteousness on her side. Xanatos just didn't care.

This is where the difference comes in. For Demona to turn to good, she needs to put aside her hatred. That's slowly happening in TGS. Xanatos, on the other hand, needed to learn to care about what other people wanted and needed. This really happened, though somewhat too easily in my opinion, back in the animated series. When Xanatos realized he loved Fox, and would do anything, even risk his own life, to protect her, something became more important in his private little universe than himself. When Alex was born, he realized even more fully that there was something more important in the world than his personal gratification. Further, since he was unable to save Alex on his own, or even do a good job of protecting him, Xanatos had to realize that he needed the good will of others, and that their sacrifices were valuable and honorable.

From that point on, Xanatos changed. I think it went a bit too easily, but the change makes a certain ammount of sense. He started trying to make ammends for his past mistakes, by giving the clan back their homes, and protecting them during the daytime, by doing what he could for Coldstone & Co, and, in TGS, by helping the Mutates as much as he could. His redemption is not really complete, though, because he still hasn't become honorable to really accept the consequences of his actions. I think Xanatos still has a lot of room to grow. He's still too deceptive, and too ready to dodge responsibility. On the other hand, his recent activities with the immortality spell show that he's learning that some of the things he wanted weren't even good for him.

(I loved that line from Babylon 5 -- "Life had to be short, to believe that Love is eternal.")

For Xanatos to really be reformed, he needs to face up to the fact that he hurt people. He's come part of the way, by trying to "restore amends," but he's still too insecure to face the censure of others, as was shown by his lies to Dr Goldblum (sp? - goldberg? gold-something?)

Civil punishment is somewhat more complicated. Some of the things Xanatos did that were evil weren't, technically, illegal. Others were so bad that if he did face legal justice, he would be practically removed from the series. Breaking the pack out of prison, arming them, etc... would carry severe penalties, and if the writers let Xanatos use all his legal resources to escape full punishment, that would undermine the whole purpose of having him be punished.

Now, the Goliath and Elisa minefield:
I don't have any problem with Goliath's proposal, or Elisa's acceptance, but I figure she's going to be plauged with second thoughts. Over the next season she should say "no, I mean yes, oh wait, I mean maybe" about every three episodes. She should push him away, only to realize how much he means to her and come crawling back.

Goliath, for his part, should always be on the other step. When Elisa's having doubts, Goliath is sure she's the only one for him. When she realizes her mistake, he's playing "once bitten, twice shy." Just when she thinks she knows what's going on, and she has him back, some other gargoyle (from a clan he wants to stay on the good side of) makes a nasty crack about 'human lovers' and Goliath's stuck worrying if his personal happiness is worth the future of his "Gargoyle Alliance."

Wash, Rinse, Repeat...

Eventually, for the story to progress, they do have to end up together in some form, but it should be a long, rocky road.

Now, for strictly personal stuff:
Fanfic> Once again, thanks for all the suggestions. I finally finished Truce today. I'll have to narrow down my reading list and figure out where I want to start tomorrow.

In case you folks missed it the first time, I have Freelance 2 up. The title is "Someone to Watch over Me" and the story features Pendragon characters. Please read it. The only thing that drives me crazier than knowing someone is reading one of my stories (which makes me feel like a cat in a rocking chair factory) is knowing one of my stories is sitting around, and Nobody is reading it. (and I want to be a writer for a living. I must be insane.)

Freelance 3 is tenativly titled "Hot Lead and Coldsteel." I'll just let you mull the possiblilies of that over for a while.

Oh yeah, Halcyon Renyard is in it.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:21:21 PM
IP: pppa34-resalefortworth2-2r1005.saturn.bbn.com

HI, I wanted to let all the authors and other persons working on the TGS know that since I have found your site, I've really enjoyed the continueing story. It's been great visiting the world of gargoyles. Thank you Kudos for the current story. I laughed, I cried, and I wanted more! My criteria of great fiction.
delphi - [cmiller@magiclink.com]
Twin Falls, ID
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:16:55 PM
IP: 207.14.200.125

:: sticks head back in for a second ::

Just wanted to add a "me too" on what kathy said about leaving TGS. I got off the mailing list at the same time, and I devoted my time just to finishing up the story edits for the remaining episodes and other miscellaneous behind the scenes stuff.

TGS was great fun, and I especially enjoyed the writing I did for the project. I put in a lot of my free time on TGS too, though, and I'm looking forward to getting back in touch with some other hobbies and activities now that I again have the time.

Don't consider this to be any sort of goodbye, though... I'm still going to be around in the fandom. :)
Patrick Toman - [PatrickAT@aol.com]
Cleveland, Ohio
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:00:48 PM
IP: abd5c562.ipt.aol.com

Just some followup comments on a very interesting discussion:

Ed and Tim P. (especially) EWS comment LOL! Ahem. I didn't mean to imply that E & G haven't been dating or that they've not shared more than one kiss. Trust me, these two have developed a very close physical relationship! But in the interest of keeping this an action series and not an (wink wink, nod, nod) action series, (we didn't want Sevarius or ASH getting sick afterall) most of the dating and necking were kept off camera and only refered to in an oblique fashion. We do have S&P to consider when writing TGS.

I could go on more about the speed of relationships but honestly, you've got to live some of this stuff to understand it.

Me and TGS > Officially, I signed off the mailing list in April, but I've been working behind the scenes in post production ever since then so now that SOC is wrapped I am officially done. It was fun, but over two years I spent several hundred hours on the project and it was time to reaquaint myself with other aspects of my life I'd been neglecting. But I'd like to believe that I learned as much from the project as I contributed, so all in all it was a fair trade.

Ironwolf: LOL on the bumperstickers.
Diane > Welcome
Glimmer > Did you by any chance get my email?




kathy - [kpogge@atl.mediaone.net]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 08:36:08 PM
IP: mail.avon.com

Ok People!!! For the record. Mother Teresa. Has no 'H'. I have the 'H'. I also think she had the funky 'e' at the end.

Starsinger
Who knows at least four ways to spell Theresa. All of the correct.
Theresa - [Starsinger@Webtv.net]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 08:25:08 PM
IP: proxy-413.public.paix.webtv.net

**enters the room, switching out the candles and sitting back down in the big chair**

**sigh**

Status: Can't get one, because for some reason the hospital is suddenly clamming up tightly. We've called a couple times this evening, and have gotten nothing but the royal runaround every time.

SJ: Yeek. That's ... pretty fried. I'd have that car checked out by a mechanic, if I were you.

JFK Jr.: Hey, there's been a fairly morbid commemoration of the accident up this way. The news the last couple of nights have been reporting about visitors to the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village (in Dearborn) taking special interest in one of the permanent displays ... the 1964 Cadillac Series 62 convertible stretch limousine that President Kennedy was riding in when he was assassinated. It's not even like it's a special display or anything, it's a *permanent display* at the museum, in a long procession of Presidential limousines (a couple of which having infamous histories ... one of the limos is an '81 Cadillac that carried President Reagan to the hospital after Hinckley shot him. As a matter of fact, that limo also happens to be the last limo that the US Government donated to the museum before they started just plain ol' destroying them.)

Mandi: Thank you. And happy birthday in advance!

Jaden: And the same to you, friend.

G&E debate: Hmm, the question arises should Elisa have said "yes?"
Why hasn't the question arisen "Should Goliath have asked at all?"
Kathy talks about women not exactly thinking clearly when they're given a marriage proposal ... a lot of men aren't exactly thinking clearly when they make one, either. I know I wasn't when I did ... and unfortunately it wound up for the worse. **sighs, stares at the candle** This will work out, I know it ... **shakes head to clear it, then continues.**

Tim P: That bit about the Kennedys sounds suspiciously like a Gallagher routine, friend. :)

**sits back in the chair, meditating and focusing on both candles' flames once more**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 08:23:41 PM
IP: modem94.i-is.com

AAAAAAUUUUGGGGGGHH!!!!!! I hate this computer and I hate this Internet server! Sorry for my elapsed absence, but the freakin' computer wouldn't let me through! Got a lot of catchin up to do...

Stray> Welcome to the room! You will find it to be your second home and second family!

Glimmer> The song "The Old Ways" by Loreena McKennitt is on The Visit album. She has seven albums and I almost have them all!

Well, I made a promise to myself long ago that I would *finally* read Dark Ages... I've successfully read the first six and found them to be better than I thought they would be! The Trio is just too cute for words! Guess I'll go keep my promise... OKIloveyoubyebye!
SOROW
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 08:09:52 PM
IP: usr11-dialup78.mix1.irving.cw.net

Ack! Damn typo demons! That's supposed to be "$h!t or get off the pot." Too much caffeine, maybe...

Naaaah! There's no such thing as too much caffeine. :)
Pissy
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 07:55:18 PM
IP: wire-30.koalas.com

Xanthar: Glad you enjoyed it. *HUGBEES* right back at ya. :)

Mandolin: Love your bumper sticker idea!

Killing Angela: Look, everybody, Angela and Andrea are probably the only two people in the world (in TGS, at least) who give Demona reasons not to wipe humanity out. If either or both of them were killed, all bets would be off, and Demona would be back to square one. In her grief and rage, she would lash out, and either she would wipe out humanity (and possibly gargoyles as well), or somebody would have to find a permanent way to stop her, such as encasing her body in cement and dropping it to the bottom of the Cayman Trough. As far as punishing Demona goes, the one that would make the most sense would be a forced quest for redemption, in which she is forced to save lives to atone for her actions of the past. I used a variation of this in my own series (her quest was self-imposed in this one), though I think I didn't let it go on long enough. Oh well, it can always continue at some later point....

Elisa and Goliath: If Elisa "dragged it out to the bitter end," the whole thing would become as tiresome as many of us felt the Unseelie war had become. Drag it out too long and people will get frustrated, annoyed, and finally just plain won't care anymore. Drag it on too long and you'll probably lose a lot of readers who are just fed up with it all. After a certain amount of time, people would want Elisa and Goliath to either s$i! or get off the pot.

Jenna: Very good points. It's different for everybody (I'm guessing at this because I've never actually been in love--lust, certainly ;)--but not love...). We don't really know what amount of time would be "right" for Elisa and Goliath, but I do think that once they came out and admitted their feelings for each other, that was a major hurdle. I do agree that six years is probably more than enough for them, or anybody else.

Robby: Good points, also. Probably the main reason it took them so long to kiss, aside from the species barrier, is simply because it was a Disney animated show aimed at younger people. Somebody probably felt that going "too fast" with an interspecies relationship would offend parents or something.... O_o

Green Baron: Yup, you're right, Mother Theresa was about as close to sainthood as any human could hope to get. People who trash her after she died should get their asses kicked.

Tim: I agree completely. Nobody seems to care about something like the moon landing, but when some pretty rich boy drives his plane into the ocean, it's on every channel. If things keep going like they are, celebrity death will be an event on Pay Per View...

Elisa's parents' reaction: I don't think they'd be too upset, being an interracial couple themselves. Obviously it's not the same thing as an interspecies relationship, but it's similar enough. Probably Peter's reaction would be the usual "Oh my god! My little girl is having sex!" kind of thing. ;)

Elisa and Goliath having children: Even if cross-species fertilization isn't possible, couldn't they have a little genetic manipulation done to make their DNA compatible? At the very least, they could use the technique Sevarius used to create Delilah--just take some DNA from Elisa and some from Goliath, put them together and let the result grow into an embryo, then maybe implant the fetus in Elisa's womb. If nothing else, it could give them something to argue about: Elisa would say, "But I want children!" while Goliath would say something like "It is not natural!" And if they actually tried it, there's no guarantee that it would work. If they tried it and it didn't work, that would add some drama to the story....
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 07:52:59 PM
IP: wire-30.koalas.com

:: pops in ::

It's nice to see all the discussion the season finale has created. Just wanted to say I'm enjoying reading all the comments, both positive and negative, and thank everyone who has been reading throughout the season. "Seeds of Change" is also my final contribution to TGS, as like kathy, I have stepped down from the project, too.

Just to give my personal take on a few things...

Goliath and Elisa > I can't imagine how three years "dating," with having known each other for six can be seen in any way, shape, or form as a "whirlwind romance." I have friends who have married after knowing each other only a year. I also have friends who've been dating and "going steady" for as long as six or seven years. Everyone is different, and the moment just happens when it happens.

Broadway & Demona > It seems only natural to me that, being the caring guy that he is, he would want to get off on the right foot with his new "mother-in-law" and keep Angela happy. Also, Demona _did_ save his life earlier in the season... and that's got to count for something.

Demona's redemption > Some good discussion here... and some good points added about the comparison I made to Xena, regarding where they are relative to each other on the path to being "redeemed." Demona's made progress, but in the three years TGS has covered, she still is not to the point where Xena was when that series began ("Sins of the Past"). And it'll probably be some time before she does progress that far.

Requiem > A personal observation... I notice a tendancy for many people to read a lot into each sentence in stories that are set in the future - much more so than most people do with the present day stories or the ones set in the past. I think it might go back to that wonderful little paranoia that the original series episode "Future Tense" created. How can we really argue, for example, that Broadway's characterization is somehow flawed in the present when compared to a story set 50 years in the future? Broadway could have any number of reasons to seem unhappy to see her, the cause of which could just as easily predate the scene by 5 days as it could by 50 years.

:: looks up :: Well, I think that's all enough to keep everyone thinking for a while. :)

:: posts a "Jerry Springer for Congress" sign and pops out ::
Patrick Toman
Cleveland , Ohio
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 07:50:55 PM
IP: abd5c562.ipt.aol.com

GLIMMER - Well, Goliath did have some trouble convincing Renard that they were on the same side in "Outfoxed" as a result of the Cyberbiotics raid. And if you want punishment of the gargs for that - how about the fact that Xanatos used those disks that they stole for him to create the Steel Clan, which he then was able to use against the clan?

For an even more serious case, how about the gargoyles' feud with the Canmores in "Hunter's Moon" - that brought about punishment, with their losing their home, getting exposed to the public, and Jon Canmore turning into Castaway.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 07:25:49 PM
IP: 209-223-93-158.dialup-stl.primary.net

**Glimmer comes into the CR**

Welcome to the new faces and welcome back to the familiar faces.

JEB> I would love to put the scan up except A) I don't have a website. I was just planning on passing the pic around via email. B) The ^*@!^$& scanner is possessed!
It was working last week.
It wouldn't work yesterday.
It was working this morning when I had to put together flyers for a daycare program.
It won't work now that I'm trying to scan gargs.

*Glimmer becomes so fustrated she bangs her head against the computer and the scanner starts to work again. She puts the pic she wants to scan in and it dies again. Glimmer gives up being frustrated and turns to being enraged. She heaves the scanner out the third story window(which is funny since it's a one story building). Anybody know how to preform exorcisms?*

I will get the !@#@*&^ thing working even if it kills me.

A week(almost) of birthdays in August? That should be a party unlike any other.

Aris><<Even after Demona realised she was a mother, she proceded to clone the whole clan and then attempted to wipe out all humanity.>> The Reckoning- Demona belived she was doing what was necessary to protect Angela from what she saw as Goliath's corrupting influence. But when it came time to choose between destroying Goliath's clan or saving Angela, she chose to save har daughter's life. Demona saw Goliath as an enemy but she still momentarily allied with him to save Angela. Of course, this was all Thailog pushing buttons, but hey...
Hunter's Moon- Demona had been planning and scheming for centuries for a way to rid the world of the human race so that gargoyles could live in peace without having to worry about humans smashing them during the day. All gargoyles, including Angela and the clan. She even said to Brooklyn, "You'll thank me for this later." She thought she was saving her race and getting revenge all at the same time. So I guess Angela's presence didn't make much of a difference in that case.
And as for Demona not doing anything in TGS- she cast a spell on Elisa. I know that was no where near the Demona we were used to seeing on TV. Then Angela laid down the law and Demona realised she had to consider her daughter's emotions before blowing her top and going hellfire. As Kathy pointed out, she hasn't acknowledged that her past actions were wrong. But now she won't do anything that would upset her relationship with her daughter.

Okay so some where along the way of typing all that up my brain has stopped working. Anybody else have that problem? Where you know exactly what you want to say but your hands won't type the right words? So if at anytime my posts make even less sense than usual, that's the problem./?

Killing off all the Gargs and leaving the human/fay characters to deal with the aftermath> I have the sudden image of Elisa dressed in a black turtleneck, black pants, and a black trenchcoat. With black wraparound sunglasses. Going full blown nutcase and dealing out street justice with plenty of attitude.

G&E> Oh come on you guys. A proposal is supposed to be a spontainous, joyous moment were you react with your heart, not analyze with your brain. Later, when the rush is over and the nerves step in, that is when you start questioning your relationship and the direction of your life. Elisa probably will ask questions about having kids and other aspects of 'normal life'. Another thought- perhaps Elisa has become so adjusted to the wierdness in her life that she now views her abnormal life as normal. o.O

Dracon&Vince> Vince was an Unseelie agent. The Unseelie were trying to take over the world(narf) and make slaves out of the human race. And Dracon is supposed to not only accept Vince back into the gang but welcome him with open arms? Vince was his enemy. Give Skunky, I mean Dracon some credit.

JFK jr.> After the media blitz on Saturday, my brother and I were planning on maintaing our Sunday tradition of vegging out and watching cartoons. The cable was out. My brother turned to me and said, "JFK jr. went down but did he have to take the cable with him?" And he's supposed to be the nice one in the family. And now my sister(who works for the goverment) is crying foul play. I'm sorry, but if he flew his plane even though he wasn't prepared for the flight conditions that means he was being stupid or cocky.

Coyote> Relieved to hear your grandmother is improving. Continued well wishes.

Crime & punishment & the Gargoyle's world> Most people want to see Demona punished. Some people want to see Xanatos punished. But if your going to think that way... what about the gargoyles themselves? They stole the disks in The Awakening. Yes, Goliath made peace with Renard, but the clan was never punished. I believe that you can atone for your past by turning your life around and living a good life. Anything else is simply vindictive.

I'd better leave before I start a whole new debate.

**Glimmer departs from room to go clean up the debris left on the sidewalk by the scanner**
Glimmer
Boulder City, NV
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 07:12:33 PM
IP: 134.gardena-05rs.ca-las-vegas-05rs.nv.dial-access.att.net

*Begin RP* with the eight members of the annoy-yu squad playing Rock paper scissors over who gets to take on which deadly seven member, Shogun turns to his crew for ideas
"okay lifeforms, we're outnumbered by a bunch of freakish so-called celebrities, we need to even the numbers, anyone got a demon summoning spell?"
Fenrir made a strangely shaped symbol in the dirt and it began to glow, a portal formed and out shot three figures, their resembelance to Brooklyn Lexington and Broadway was uncanny
"the trio, good thinking Fen, but they aren't demons, ah well, any port in a storm and all that" acknowledged Shogun
" HEY BROE! WOOB WOOB WOOB!"
Shogun turned sharply to see who made the odd comment and with horror saw it came from Broadway, or at least something that resembled him
"Oh Fenrir, I do believe your summoning spell was miscast"
"What makes you say that?"
"take look at the trio"
Sure enough something was different. aside from a dopey look on their faces, Brooklyn's normally Ivory mane was absent, in it's place was a jet black sugar-bowl haircut, Lexington's normally bald head had a garland of brownish-red curly hair around the sides and Broadway who bore the dopiest look of all had signigficantly smaller ears and a smooth dome where his head ridges once were
"well Fenrir, it seems your demon summoning spell summoned up a demon all right...A CREATIVITY DEMON!!!"
"Okay, so it did, but I'm not the one who thought up the trio stooges"
All eyes turned on Flypside
"what? oh right, the trio stooges bit, well what difference does that make? the numbers are now even"
Abel looked at Shogun
"the little homonculus has a point"
"I see"
And with that the trio stooges headed after Tori, Joey and Felicity and the deadly seven set after the original annoy-uy force members
*end RP*

Say, who is Joey anyway?

E&G> okay, so Diane would be the type who wants a lot of grandkids, who's to say she needs to put her hope in Beth, something tells me Derek and Maggie would be the most likely choice, sure they may be hairy, winged grandkids who can shoot electricity, but they are her grandkids, besides, it kind of makes sense, interracial grandparents, interspecies grandkids, In case you haven't noticed, species tends to take a back seat to bloodlines in this series, take for instance, Titania's actions in "Aftermath Pt. 1" here we have the queen of the fey herself, someone who's picture is in the dictionary by the word "cunning" someone on a mystical isle who-knows-where, but when her grandson wanted her, she came, and the little guy is only a quarterling running...er...zapping....teleporting....whatever, the point is that Diane wouldn't put all her faith in Beth for fully human grandkids, she won't care what species they were, so long as they were her grandkids
"G vs. E" seems like a fairly interesting show but I just have one question: does this show remind anyone else of Men in Black without all the fancy hardware?

"Kennedy Krisis" I was thinking about something, given all that has come up about this family, I can't help but think that the assassination was masterminded by an athurian survivor who was well-versed in magic and peeved about the soiling of the name "camelot" hence the magic bullet
Frankly, I am so sick of all the hype behind these celebrity deaths, and this so called "Kennedy curse" it was a bad night to fly and Junior didn't know how, Curse schmurse, t'was stupidity, killed the brat.
FAMOUS LAST WORDS:
"C'mon! I WANNA FLY THE PLANE D@MMIT!! I CAN DO IT!!!" ~JFK Junior
shogun raptor
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 06:20:18 PM
IP: miami-trans1.firn.edu

Goliath and Elisa > I agree with Ironwolf; I see their relationship as being something like the start of a giant rollercoaster ride ... you're chugging up that initial slope for what seems like forever (all the initial episodes), you reach the top for that one moment of too-late-now exhilration (the Kiss), and then WHOOOSH! Away you go! That's how it was for Tim and I, barring complications (long, sordid story). Which is why when I started my stories, I wasted zero time and jumped right the heck in with both footsies ; )

Help! > anyone know Karine / Kanthara's e-mail addy? Gots me a favor to ask her!

Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 06:19:33 PM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

<----- "Oh, please don't kill me! What the hell have I done to deserve that?!"


Killing off Angela: Must kill this idea before anyone attempts this. All the that I have to say about this has been said.

Eyes Wide Shut: I enjoyed the film quite a bit. It was a lot more satisfying than all of the over-loaded movies like "Wild Wild West" and "The Matrix." The later films, although they had good special effects, really sucked. Contempory Films like "Eyes Wide Shut" don't need all that glitter to make a movie interesting. I can only hope that when the Gargoyles feature does come out (I say "when" because I'm trying to be optimistic), It will be of the same contempory quality as this film. The plot was a little hard to find, but it is there. It's complex and fascinating, and doesn't need a bunch of wild fight scenes to woo our intellectually dumbed-down American audiences. Let's face it people, the "South Park" movie was perhaps one of the most intellectual films made within the last twenty years.

And besides, it had sex in it.

Weird? Yes.
Daring? Yes.
Confusing? Yes.
A great film? Yes.

JFK Jr.: You may of not heard, but as the media goes nuts over this, the 30th anniversity of the first moon landing is upon us. Great, how f-cking typical. The proudest moment in the history of the nation, if not the planet, is being overshadowed by the fact that this guy lost his way to Martha's Vineyard. James Conrad, the third man to walk on the moon, also died recently. Hardly anyone cared. JFK Jr., a guy who made a living looking pretty for the cameras, dies and everyone has a fit. God, this generation is so f-cked up. It's no wonder why Steven Speilberg and Tom Brokaw have Geezer Envy.

And what's so great about the Kennedy's anyway? They're all a bunch of back-stabbing drunk butts who mess up their own lives and live in a town called High *Anus*port.

Pistoff: That link of yours was hilarous.

Green Baron: [Marlon Brando voice] Congratulations on becoming a Godfather. It’s an offer you can’t refuse.

<<< TGS SPOILERS >>>

Elisa and Goliath- It's about time! I've been wanting them to get together for a long time. Only one complaint- The love scene wasn't erotic enough! I'm still high off that "Eyes Wide Shut" movie!

Pendragon involvment- Didn't read it, didn't care.

All around, not a bad episode. But it didn't really raise my interest. Well, that one scene with Elisa and Goliath sorta did in a way but I won't go in much detail here.

It started out real good but after the first 2/3 of the story, I felt a little dissapointed.

As Sata would say to Brooklyn after sex, "What?! That was it?!" ;)

<<< END TGS SPOILERS >>>
Tim P. - [dtkphipp@pionet.net]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 06:14:59 PM
IP: s13-onawa.pionet.net

RP WARNING!!!
**Crown Point
Now that OJ destryed the reserves, Guod is very worried and rather angry. Meanwhile, Attila and the Scouts are facing off against the French Borg.

The scouts wave to the Napoleonic Borg and lift up tehir skirts, and then show them their armpits.

"Hey Gaston! Ze Catholic schoolgirls are flirting with us, and zey have no armpit hair."
"Oui, Boudreaux. There are 20 of us and five of zem. Let's get kinky."

The girls lead the Frogs away and then annhiliate them with their powers.

Napoleon and Attila the hun now have their swords raised ready for battle.

"Now, I will cut you down you arrogant gaul, and I shall be the greatest General in history. Then I shallr eturn to my time and pillage Rome."**
END RP for now!!!

Mandi> I was thinking the exact same thing, though such a death would be too good for Ted. Maybe having him make passes at Arianna and Sata, then receiving appropraite treatment for his actions from them, or just making a pass at Demona and getting torn in half :)

Diane> It's the TGS fanfic series, not an animated show. Gargoyles ended on the TV with Angels in the Night, though thsi series ignores TGS.

Good News> A few weeks ago, my first cousin, onc eremoved was born. His name is Thomas Philip Donelly and he will be christened on August 14th in Colorado Springs. Best of all, I am going to be his godfather :)

Sabrina> Welcome. Now who will take your sanity?

Kathy> TGS won't be the same without you.

Cyrway> I didn't know that about the Grail actually. I always thought it was the Eucharistic chalice for the Last Supper, like in The Last Crusade. Thanks for the information.

Pecti-wiccan? What is pecti-wiccan?

BTW, I loved your South Park crossover :)

Earl Allison> WB! Being the anniversary of Chapaquidik (sp) may have added emphasis. That curse seems to leave the dregs of the family alive, though.

Demona> I think she should do penance, since it may be difficultto build up a legal case against her, though once she reforms, she may accept a punishment for her crimes against humanity as part of her penance. I guess it's my upbringing that sees penance as essential to reform.

David G.> Xanatos has good lawyers, even sleazier than F. Lee Bailey. Elisa was surprised the sentence wasn't suspended altogether. Of course, the punishment for any white-collar crime is pretty easy, anyway.

Arianna> <<JFK Jr. was someone that I liked...one of the only, if not the only Kennedy I liked.>>
It seems we have very similar opinions. A pity you're not a few years older, and living a little farther south :)

Pistoff> Even if it is, I can still add it to my resume, though my last job should still be impressive, even if it was only three months :(

I agree about Mother Theresa, too. she did much more than Princess Diana or most people for that matter. She has really been one of the greatest example of love in this world, and she has an entire Order of nuns devoted to her philosophy. I bet you were pissed when some reproters tried to trash her record after her death, because Mother Theresa followed a conservative philosophy. In less than three years, lots of people will petition for her sainthood. I know your beliefs differ from mine, but I imagine you agree that the title of saint fits her.

BTW, at least Jackal wasn't inside Princess Di's coffin :)

Todd> I imagine the Heugenots were not entirely guilt-free, but I think the Edict of Nantes was a good idea. I also recall Richeleau was much more involved with repealing teh Edict of Nantes an dhe was quite slimy and Borgia-like. As for the Huegenots, its a pit their inspirtaion John Calvin was a tyrant who reigned as ayatollah of Geneva,a nd teh English Calvinsts (Puritans) were very different form their French counterparts. Under Cromwell, England was subjected to the same tyranny,a nd I hope the pigeons use any statue of Cromwell as a toilet, because he deserves no less :)

Aris> You have a point. The Grail, if it is the relic I've always regarded it as, should be shared by the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Christian Orthdox Churches. Sharing it would promote a lot of goodwill against former enemies, too. What museum did you have in mind? If the Grail isn't what I think it is, then it shoudl be in some Arthurian museum.

Kyryn> What exactly is a solitaire wiccan? Feel free to e-mail me if you don't feel like answering here.

Lawrence> Thanks. How is that fanfic going?




Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
New Orleans, Louisiana
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 05:59:31 PM
IP: 141.164.133.110

diane> There have been no episodes made after 'Angels of the Night' - the series was cancelled. There is only fanfiction now, written not by the creators of the show, but by its fans.

In this room we discuss the largest and most well known series of fanfics - "TGS" meaning The Gargoyles Saga. It's not the original show, but it has some very talented fans writing it.

If you want to know a bit more about what the creator of the show, Greg Weisman, had planned for the future (and what he would do were he given the chance) you may check the "Ask Greg" section of Station eight. Click my name or go to http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/

Btw, this is the TGS room, and though we often discuss the original series here as well, the main comment room (in which TGS discussion are limited to a minimum) which you may want to check out is in http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/comment.html

And btw, WELCOME!
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 05:23:08 PM
IP: athe530-d011.otenet.gr

Wow!! wait a minute! Who's gonna to be married? Here in Europe (I talk about French, German and Italian TV)Gargooyles stopped at the episode "Angels in the night" and they're showing the 3 seasons for the 100st time. So tell me where you get new adventures from my favourite heros
diane
luxembourgTuesday, July 20, 1999 05:02:58 PM
IP: ppp03-0708-179.pt.lu

PAUL - You wrote: [For starters, Demona is most likely not avoided. *She* keeps herself apart from the other gargoyles because she doesn't want to be among them, because she feels she doesn't deserve to be among them. That was clear in REQUIEM.]

I think that you should go back and look at the text again. Here is what it says:

"Demona caped her wings and began to walk. A few of the gargoyles that she passed acknowledged her with a nod of greeting, but never a smile. Others greeted her with open suspicion. Yes, everyone knew of the infamous Demona. Nevertheless, Demona held her head high and walked proudly, responding to those who greeted her and ignoring those who
shunned her."

REQUIEM makes it clear that aside from her daughter Angela and someone who had no idea who she was - Benedick - absolutely no other Gargoyle wanted to have anything to do with her. Even Broadway, who is shown to have suddenly grown to care about Demona's opinion in recent episodes, isn't happy about her appearance.

I can accept that once her past got out into the open that many Gargoyles would be shocked. Ishimura and London Gargoyles would probably feel a distaste at being around her. But the way things are going in the Main TGS, Manhattan Gargoyles shouldn't have that much of a problem with her. And other clans like New Olympians for example should probably admire her considering that their idea's about humanity are probably not that far away from the one's she has had for the last thousand years.

My major problem was with the uniform response that she got. It doesn't feel right. The TGS future is a utopia more or less with the majority of beings seeming to get along. Humans and Gargoyles are on great terms, and in mainstream society nobody seems to hate the other side. And that just doesn't seem realistic. Humans don't get along with each other. How is it that in a little more than a century they can not only somehow get along with each other but with an entirely non-human race? And while I can accept that most Gargoyles in the 22nd century probably wouldn't have anything against humanity, there has to be some out there who have as much mistrust and irrational hate of Humans as some Humans have of Gargoyles. New Olympus is not going to suddenly find a love of Humans after two thousand years of hate. And I don't think that they are the only clan that might have a low opinion of Humanity and might actually be able to see things from Demona's point of view (although I don't think that they would accept the methods she's had over the last thousand years).

You wrote: [Will you please not criticize the THE GARGOYLES SAGA Staff? They've done great this far, and they know what they're doing, they've shown much indication of this.]

I'm expressing my opinion. I feel that on some issues they might be moving a bit too fast for my taste. But that's a long way from critizing them. If everyone agreed that everything they were doing was perfect then what would be the point to show up here? This is a place for discussion of different views and ideas.


ROBBY - What I do see as logical in what happened with Goliath and Elisa in this most recent episode is something that dawned on me after reading your thoughts. Elisa and Goliath recognized that they had feelings for each other after a near death experience. In HUNTERS MOON she did almost die at the dam. So I could see them making a further move now after she has had another near death experience.

Still, even with that, it just seems to be moving too fast at this point. It took TWO years just to acknowledge feelings. Marriage after three more years seems like a rush when you think about that. Elisa seemed to agree just a little bit too fast for my taste.


KATHY - You wrote: [That would have rather spoiled the moment. And speaking from experience, those are all questions that get answered in time. They're not the sort of stuff you worry about when there's a proposal hanging in front of you and the guy of your dreams is waiting for an answer.]

That is a good point. Still I just felt like Elisa said yes way too fast. She should have a tremendous amount of doubt about this. She loves Goliath but there are other factors involved too. I don't think she has given up on a normal life. I would have liked to have seen her hesitate and take a while to think about it instead of giving an instantaneous answer. Goliath's reaction would have been interesting. For Gargoyles it's not so complicated. If two Gargoyles love each other, then they stay together forever. I would have liked to see how he would react to Elisa having some hesitation.

As for Elisa's family, Derek wouldn't put up much of a fight but I do think he would start giving Goliath the evil eye every time he saw him after finding out about the engagement. I don't think Peter would be particularly happy about the marriage. I don't have a real reason for it. It's just a feeling based on seeing him in CLOUD FATHERS. I still don't think he's really accepted the whole idea of myth as reality of which Goliath is a constant reminder.

Now that she is engaged, I do hope that we get a very long, long engagement. There is no need to rush everything. And I think that if before getting engaged was the wrong time to ask important questions about having children and living together and so on then while they are engaged, it a necessity to do. They can't avoid questions like that. If they do, it'll only pop up later and make everyone unhappy.


TODD - I'm aware of what Greg wrote concerning Angela's view of Elisa. But I do think that it should be something that would come up in TGS if even as a joke. Imagine this scene:

Elisa enters the castle with Matt. It is a few days after she and Goliath announced that their engagement. Angela passes by them. Elisa and Matt both say "Hi Angela" and Angela responds "Hi Matt, Hi Mom" which immediately causes Elisa to stop dead in her tracks and suddenly turn around to look at Angela with this expression of realisation that if she marries Goliath not only will she technically be Angela's stepmother, but she also becomes stepmother to Goliath other 34 children. Matt and Angela are smiling. Then Goliath walks in and asks "Elisa? What's wrong?" which immediately causes Matt and Angela to break out into laughter.
Airwalker
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 04:57:52 PM
IP: 216.new-york-01-02rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Didn't he go on a gun destroying rampage over his guilt?(yea the preps he ruffed up were scum but he did go a little into the darkside)My point is or was love/hate are strong emotions and can go hand in hand. There is a quote some where ummm "with the ability to love greatly also comes with the ability to hate greatly" or something like that. Sensitivity is a two edged sword and I think it would make a neat story, because who would expect it afterall you never suscpect the quiet ones:)

Ironwolf
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 04:31:49 PM
IP: host-209-214-40-74.cha.bellsouth.net

Ironwolf> Hmph. I can't see that ever happening to Broadway. If anything Broadway is the most sensitive among the gargoyles and as far as I can see lacks the darkness required to turn evil, or the weakness not to recognize his mistake. I can't see him ever becoming like Demona no matter what happens (even Demona wouldn't turn evil had she not blamed herself for the Wyvern massacre- and even then she didn't hate humans so much as to stop herself from entering an alliance with Macbeth) and he's no Jon Castaway either. Even in the 'Future Tense' vision he was the most gentle character of them all. A difference between him and Jon for example is that in 'Deadly Force' he admitted his own error rather than blame another (even a mobster) and rather than abandoning Elisa in her apartment (as Jon did with Jason) he had the common sense to take her to the hospital...
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 04:23:23 PM
IP: athe530-c089.otenet.gr

Hey, Sabrina! :) Nice to see you stopping by! ^_^
Ed
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 03:24:05 PM
IP: p57-siskin-gui.tch.virgin.net

Paul: Okay, I didn't see the crow. Maybe it is Morrigan. But the woman is definitely Banshee. She has the same hair and face as Banshee's human form (see Hound of Ulster). I guess Banshee and Morrigan are back together (uh oh).

Goliath and Elisa: Thanks for your points, Pistoff and Kathy. I think I understand the situation with them a little better now. Hope to see Kathy's points get some fruition in upcoming season 3 eps.

More later.
Doug
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 02:58:58 PM
IP: pool-209-138-63-86.dlls.grid.net

Goliath and Elisa’s relationship. First this was one of those we are only friends things. They hid their love from themselves for 65 episodes. Now has anyone been in a relationship like this? They move very slowly at first then whoosh move very quickly afterwards. They tend to work like a boulder. It takes forever to get the thing rolling but when you do watch out because it picks up speed fast.

Angela dying now here is a neat one shot fanfic An alternate world where Demona summons the Gargoyles of our dimension to stop one of The biggest threat to her world. Broadway. Broadway is the character that I can connect with the most. We are a lot alike. So what would happen to Broadway if Angela was killed by humans as a revenge or punishment for Demona? I could see him turning cold and going on a murder spree that would leave Demona horrified. Now I am not saying this would happen overnight, but given time as the pain of loosing her grew so would his hatred. Fat turning into mussel as love and life turned to hate and death. An example of this but in a very less form happened when he shot Elisa. I could even see Broadway turning on the clan as he blamed them for not protecting her. So over time he turns well evil. At first he just goes after the ones responsible, but when the police or society stops him then he begins to turn on society. Here is the one action that would guarantee his slide into insanity and turn the clan against him.
Fic*****fic******
Jail house. A Metal door flies down a hall of cells followed by the crumpled form of two police officers. A pair of White eyes glow form the door way. Elisa standing in front of one of the cells yells “that’s enough Broadway. Stand aside and let the courts handle them” Broadway stalks in “You mean let the Humans decide! There is a crowd outside cheering them!” He snarls” They killed the daughter of the monster responsible for the Night of Stone murders! And you think Your Courts WILL PUNISH THEM!”. Elisa draws her gun” Goliath agreed to let the courts handle this you need to calm down. Yea guys he is here at the court house hurry” Elisa whispers into a private head set hoping the rest of the clan gets here soon. Broadway marches forward “no Elisa they pay now” He reaches for the bars when Elisa grabs him he shrugs her off easily when BAMM Elisa wounds him in the shoulder knocking him down” stay down Broadway I can’t let you kill them. A stone sleep should cure that but stay down and wait for the clan.” With a snarl Broadway’s tail whip out lighting quick and slaps the gun from her hand. He leaps to his feet grabbing the cell bars he starts to pry the door open when Elisa slams into his side “stop it “ Snarling he back hands her with all his might. Sickening thud sounds through the cells as his hand meets her body to be followed a second later by another sickening thud as her head collides with the opposite cell " NO what have I no” he turns to look at the prisoners” what have you done” charging the cell; the bars explode inwards as he runs through them and kills all inside.
Sorry I don’t see Angela’s death as a punishment for Demona but as a way to turn Broadway into Demona.

bumper stickers Yea i know its tuesday not saturday sorry
Hukt on Fonix Reely Wurkt for Mee!
This Vehicle leased to:
American Association for the Aboliton of Acronym Abuse, Regional Group Headguarters Staff Transport Office Pool(AAAAARGH/STOP)

Animal testing is futile
the animals get nervous and give the wrong answers

and last but not least
Most men would respect a womans mind more if it bounced gently as she walked.

I owe I owe so back to work I go
Ironwolf
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 01:40:33 PM
IP: host-209-214-41-156.cha.bellsouth.net

AIRWALKER - Re your question about whether Angela might be wondering as to if she should call Elisa "Mother" - Greg once said that Angela views Elisa more as an older sister than as a mother or stepmother (and come to think of it, in his table of ages, Angela and Beth are biologically the same age). Of course, I can't comment on this from a TGS perspective.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 01:24:33 PM
IP: sys.slpl.lib.mo.us

:::a light brown gargess with bright green wings sneaks into the room...pops up::: Hieee all you wonderful gargie ppl you!! ::waves::: I decided to hop by and see how you guys are doing..I'll be stopping by more often..becuase this Comment room rules! :-D....well me,myself and I should be going now...Catcha later! :::poof::
sabrina - [brook98@webtv.net]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 01:23:54 PM
IP: proxy-363.public.rwc.webtv.net

JEB: Wow, thanks for including me in your ‘recommended’ list! I think you forgot one important author though, even though the particular person I’m thinking of is still leaving his audience hanging on a cliffhanger. Who could that be, I wonder? ;)

Earl Allison: I remember you – welcome back! ^_^

***THE REST OF THIS POST CONTAINS REFERENCES TO EVENTS OCCURRING IN THE LATEST EPISODE OF GARGOYLES/PENDRAGON***

Kathy: I must thank you and the staff for the inclusion of Pendragon and Delilah, and I’m very happy to see it. Unfortunately, I don’t see that this was the Delilah episode that I had hoped for (although I’d love to see a lot more focus on her relationship with Sharon: it’s nice she can have a friend). Still, we don’t get a great amount of exposition on her; she’s still a flat background piece. As for Arthur, this is lovely. I am delighted that we get Pendragon. The only trouble is that it bears very little reference to… well, anything happening in the USA sections, and even some of that seems to lack relevance full stop.

OK, now onto various other related comments.

Firstly, Elisa and Goliath. I don’t think it’s enough that all this has happened to them, really. We need to see the process itself. Elisa is very guarded. As Kathy said, they’ve had precious few proper dates. They’ve had a time of separation, a time of doubt. They’re different species, with different views. And Elisa is seldom one to say ‘yes’ straight away, which here she did. I still think she’s got a long way to go to completely convince herself that it’s *possible* for such a relationship to develop into marriage, from outside pressures. Goliath and Elisa haven’t spent a great deal of time to discuss it.

(May I just add in at this point, that this is one of the big flaws in working with so many strands in single episodes; it makes it far more difficult to me to picture in my mind the chronology. I have far less of a problem with Timedancer and the original series which have far less clutter.)

So they’ve kissed once. I think it should have been a fairly long-waiting and private thing before they finally kissed again because I think they’re very uncertain themselves, let alone in front of everyone else. (Even though everyone else knows). I don’t think Goliath’s side should be underestimated either. He’s making a massively bold step, breaking all the rules that he held so dear. Look at how he clung to the castle in ENTER MACBETH. Now, he’s proposing marriage. I don’t feel that the order of events is especially fluid.

Three years is a long time. But a lot has happened since then. They were embroiled in a long and terrible war; they couldn’t spend much time together or discussing then. Since that ended, there’s still been a lot happening. BW mating Angela, Thailog coming out of the woodwork, the Oro affair, the Aftermath tour business etc. And suddenly Goliath pops up asking for marriage. It just seems wrong. There’s a long way to go yet.

And that’s quite skipping past the whole business of how this fits into the scheme of human/gargoyle relations and subsequent problems, etc.

As for Demona, Kathy your points are very good. The biggest problem seems to be the word ‘curve’ in ‘Redemption Curve’. For one, the TGS ‘curve’ has skipped the beginning where she’s still very resentful of the clan almost entirely. We’ve seen her dislike the clan and then get used to their presence, but we’ve not seen much resolved. Demona has pretty much been there as a ‘sort-of friend’ via Angela ever since… TWO? Something like that. But also, she has a lot to work through and she’s been constrained by a plethora of inane situations co-starring with Angela. And the format has barely changed – if at all – ever since the whole thing began.

Basically guys, there’s no rush. I don’t think you need to concern yourselves with getting everyone paired up too quickly. Give it time. And perhaps more importantly, give it space.

Incidentally, Kathy, I’m sorry to hear that this is the last time we shall see your TGS involvement coming out. I’d like to propose a round of applause for your work. There was a time when I thought that the name ‘Kathy Pogge’ was a permanent fixture in the ‘Gargoyles/Pendragon’ credits. :)
Ed - [ed.reynolds@virgin.net]
London, England
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 01:10:18 PM
IP: p58-griffon-gui.tch.virgin.net

**runs into the room and jumps on Robby and tackles** Hi! **kisses him** Welcome back!

Goliath & Elisa issue : Guys, stop dissing my favorite Gargoyles couple! It makes me sad people talking negative about Goliath and Elisa. And Robby doesn't like me being unhappy. **looks at Robby with a smile**


Heather - [kheetor84@aol.com]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 12:50:48 PM
IP: abd192af.ipt.aol.com

*Ptooffs!! In...*
***SEMI-RANT MODE***

Well, folks, my two cents on the Grail...not to offend any Christians out there, but...um...how can I put this lightly...? The Grail wasn't the Christian artifact to begin with...the story of the Grail was mutated from the pecti-wiccan stories of the Cauldron of Knowledge and the Cauldron of Life. In fact, every mention of the Grail in the story I wrote up to the point that it was holding jellybeans is all research from various religious books, both Christian and pagan.

As for the Morrigan...um...is it me or is TGS treating her as a bad guy? The Morrigu, or Morrigan is actually a balance goddess of justice and war. It is the crone personification of the Triple Goddess, the judge of life and death. (DJ Conway, if anyone's interested, wrote many books on the subject of Celtic pagan gods throughout history.)

Okay, I gotta tend to my email...

***END RANT MODE***

Thanks to all who welcomed me back!

Coyote> You flatter me... ;) Good to hear about your grandmother.

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:59:15 AM
IP: ddialup-w-148.mint.net

Been a long time since I posted in a Gargs room, anyone remember me?

Demona and punishment> Okay, so this won't come as a surprise to anyone who knows me, but why SHOULD she be punished? Are you saying that the last thousand years haven't been enough? Granted, Demona's got some serious issues to work through, and she does need to acknowledge her guilt in some of them, but no one to date, save perhaps Macbeth, even has the right to take her to task. Who else can even understand what she's been through? Whatever else she's done, Demona is not the only one with bloody hands (or talons ...) and a need to come clean. As a friend is always happy to tell me when I get too wrapped up in a rant, there is no cosmic justice. No scales to be balanced act for act, or blood for blood. Whatever Demona has done is done, and no matter how much pain and suffering she's caused, is it any worse than what humans do to each other? When and if she can confront her own role in things like the Wyvern Massacre, then her healing can begin.

Kennedy> I can certainly sympathize, as I also live in Massachusetts. Granted, I wouldn't wish death on ANYBODY, but the news coverage was offensive at the very least. Yes, he is the son of a famous President, and yes, any death is a tragedy, but 24+ hours of coverage saying things like "no new news, but here's some more speculation," just makes me insane! Isn't there anything else in the world worth mentioning? I mean, I'm just so sure that no one else died since Saturday, or that nothing important happened anywhere else!
Earl Allison - [eallison@tiac.net]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:56:31 AM
IP: firewall.etn.com

Airwalker said: "Elisa shouldn't have just said yes. She should have started asking questions like Can we have kids and How can we even live together and so on and so forth."

That would have rather spoiled the moment. And speaking from experience, those are all questions that get answered in time. They're not the sort of stuff you worry about when there's a proposal hanging in front of you and the guy of your dreams is waiting for an answer.

As for Elisa's family and how they'll deal with the situation, we have hints from episodes past so I think I can delve into this without getting into spoiler territory.

Derek made his feelings rather clear in SO,SN. He recognizes his sister wants the relationship. He's not thrilled - he still has misgivings about Goliath that won't go away, but if he puts up any serious resistance then he risks alienating Elisa. Peter? No father likes to give up his daughter, but he'll not stand in the way of her happiness. He probably has memories of when he and Diane decided to get married, not all of them pleasant because theirs was an interracial relationship at a time when they were even more frowned upon then they are now. Diane? Just a guess, but I'd be willing to bet she figured out where things were headed back in Africa, even before Goliath and Elisa had. Is she tickled? Nope. She strikes me as the kind who wanted lots of grandkids, but with a daughter who is dedicated to a career in a dangerous profession, I'd be willing to wager she'd already pinned her best hopes on Beth after Derek was revealed as a mutate.

Nobody ever thinks everything through prior to getting married. Oh they think they do and you can read books and take classes and go on retreats, but nothing really prepares you for the day to day reality. It's a leap of faith. Utterly. Elisa may be a careful person, but she's a realist too. She has recongnized that this is *her life* and if she doesn't live it then she's not going to get another chance. We all wish for things that aren't practical. But if we're realistic about it, we recognize it for what it is and don't waste the opportunities in front of us.

Paul > Out of the mouths of babes... (and I mean that in a good way) :)
kathy
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:33:54 AM
IP: client18061.atl.mediaone.net

About Demona>Maaann..youre all so dumb!!! ..Why dont you get her reasons??? ...

...exin
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:18:56 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

About Demona>Maaann..youre all so dumb!!! ..Why dont you get her reasons??? ...

...exin
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:18:55 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

There's a loud crash outside the CR, and Aaron, looking a bit worse for wear, staggers in.

Just a quick post for now.

Robby> Missed this earlier. The movie is an HBO original called Mean Guns. It stars Christopher Lambert and Ice-T. Well worth renting.

Doug> I'm with Wilek. I liked The Replacement Killers. But, as I've said before, I'm certafiably tasteless. I liked Load and Reload.

Later.

Aaron wanders off, humming U2's "If god will send his angels"


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:15:13 AM
IP: ppp-109.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

**Robby enters hummin Joxter the Mighty**

Joxter the mighty, sentinal of liberty... Oii, that song does get stuck in the head!

Durid- The latest Godzilla film showed pictures of Godzilla all over the place! We saw tons of clips of his foot and tail and eye and back for weeks! It was his actual face only that was kept hidden, as it was the main draw factor to get anyone to see the movie... And then they screwed up and Taco Bell released mugs with his likeness the day the movie came out...

"Here lizard lizard lizard..."

And the fairie at G99 was named Bluebonnet. She was one of the two mascots...

Goliath and Elisa- I should keep quiet since I'm on staff, but I have to make a point about this. Don't forget to count the original series, starting in 1994. They've known each other for six years. Been in love most of that time. Sure it took forever for them to admit it with the kiss, but that was held back so long only because of the species barrier. If they'd both been of the same species, there likely would have been a kiss in the first season of the show. They still have obstacles to worry about, but come on, six years people. (And several months of that spent constantly together during the Avalon tour.) Sheesh. Plenty of time to know what they want. Add to that Elisa recently had a near death experiance, and couples are getting married all around... And its not as if at the spur of the moment they got hitched, they got engaged, which is a long ways from married. Who knows how long the engagement will be? I've heard of engagements that have lasted 10 years... ANd that's not even accounting for potential fights and other problems already mentioned...

SJ- Actually the Chuck Norris/Jackie Chan comparison I heard about from a friend, don't know if the Chukster actually thinks he's that good... All CHuck has going for him is he was trained by the master Bruce Lee, and he admits he's no where as good as Bruce was...

Toku- Welcome to the club of those doomed to write!

HUGBEES! (An episode of Freakazoid was dedicated to a woman named Mrs. Hugbees, just because they liked saying Hugbees.) Oh blast it, why'd you have to remind me of that word? Oh well...
Robby
HUGBEES!
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 10:41:55 AM
IP: spider-ti082.proxy.aol.com

hmmm--all this talk about Golith and Elisa being to quickly resolved makes me think. I think Pist off is pretty much on target when he says that after the infamous kiss, things changed for Elisa.
But on another note- how long does love take? How long is too long and how fast is too soon. Elisa and Goliath had 3 years at least--I think that's more than enough time. But everyone is different, some couples take years other days, No matter how crazy it sounds.
It sounds mushy, but when I met my husband pretty much at the get go I knew he was the one. Okay, I know it sounds corny but it is true. When you know, you know. Sometimes it happens, and not just in fairy tales. Love is like that.
Jenna
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 10:18:18 AM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

***Kyryn peers in***

Whoa! Timedancer season 3 will NOT start in September! Dark Ages WILL start sometime in September. I cannot give a definite date at this time.

Kyryn, Head of Edits, Season 3

Kyryn
Uvalde, TX
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 10:00:20 AM
IP: 168.37.239.86

Okay, I'm Posting again because of some points Airwalker brought up.
First, though, something I'd forgotten, and realized I'd forgotten before I even read Airwalker's Post.
Demona will end up with a mate in the future, but it may be sooner than 2,158 A.D.
Another thing I forgot is-Oh, shoot, I forgot it again. I'll remember it and Post it sometime later.

Airwalker-For starters, Demona is most likely not avoided.
*She* keeps herself apart from the other gargoyles because she doesn't want to be among them, because she feels she doesn't deserve to be among them.
That was clear in REQUIEM.
Her own guilt is keeping her apart from them, for fear of what they might say to her, or think of her.
As for the other Clans, I imagine the New Olympian Gargoyles, presuming they also detested humans, would probably approach her as a heroine.
The Clans, well, I doubt they'd be in utter agreement. Will you please not criticize the THE GARGOYLES SAGA Staff? They've done great this far, and they know what they're doing, they've shown much indication of this.

Now, to the main point.
Goliath and Elisa, again.
I will repeat this again in much, much clearer terms: It is against the characters of any of the two, Goliath, or Elisa, to go through angst about the other's feelings.
Its not because they're gargoyles or humans. Its simply about feelings and all that. Some people do go through angst in various stories, and possibly in real life.
There are plenty other reasons for that type of angst, but seriously, Elisa is not the type of person to go through something like that.
She is absolutely not.
As for the other reactions, well, they'll probably be settled.
These people know how to express emotions on a basis that reflects the plausibility of the characters and related to the situations around them.
Yes, Elisa was shot before, but I have a feeling there's a difference between these two times. Yes, we know she wants a normal life, and I'm sure she hasn't forgotten that. Read my first post for explanations of how this whole relationship part my very well proceed.
Just because the authors have the characters make mistakes is no reason to criticize the authors.
Elisa's just not thinking fully logically, and is making a mistake.
A mistake that will be corrected.
Believe me, as soon as someone questions her choice, most likely her mother, and/or her father, all the rest of the points should come into the equation.
This was just the beginning.
Have some faith that the authors know what they're doing, please!

"Search for it, boy! A love that shall remain forever unattainable for you, now matter how hard you try to pursue it! Until then..."-Miang
XENOGEARS
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:51:45 AM
IP: 81.morristown-18-19rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

Quick post before dying...working...same thing:
Paul> I think I see where we're not communicating here. I think it would be absolutly bad if any character decided to punish Demona. She would see it as an attack, and go back into her defensive, survivalist mode. What I'm looking for is just an event that forces her to accept responsibility for her past. It might not even have to happen to her personally, but just be something she cares about. Running into one of the survivors of City of Stone, now without a family, might be good. The big thing is that the event has to make her feel emotional pain, and realize that she, herself, is the cause. Maybe punishment isn't the best word choice, since it doesn't mean exactly what I have in mind, but any other way I can think of to say it is unwieldy and long.

I agree that she's already suffered a lot, but she hasn't learned much from all that suffering yet. That's what I'm waiting for.

Xanatos's punishment> I can't remember who mentioned this, but that is a good point. I thought he got off too easily in the animated series. The main reason I haven't said anything about it is that he's not as interesting to me as Demona. I'll give it some thought now, though.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:37:59 AM
IP: 198.215.20.3

Druid: You asked why Godzilla sucked despite my "monster visiblity" barometer? It's simple, Matthew Broderick. When did he go from being cool to being the geek they hire when Jeff Goldblum isn't available? This whiny nerd character he's been playing in the past few yeas is more annoying than Jar Jar...
Skippy The Klingon - [shakedwn@ultravision.net]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:30:57 AM
IP: 207.22.234.101

First of all-
Okay, if this offends anyone, let me know, but the part about Emrys becoming a nanny, and why he didn't, was so obvious, that I have to use these two words.
No, Duh!
If that offended anyone, I'll apologize.
Its not intended as an insult, to anyone who might think its so, but its intended to explain that THE GARGOYLES SAGA was quite clear on that part.
No problem, Todd.

The Demona Debate-A lot of this will be directed to David G. since he made the most good points so far.
First of all, my defense of Demona not needing punishment is from the fact that she's already been through so much that she's suffered. For someone to punish her and make her feel more pain wouldn't be an act of teaching, it would be an act of torture.
I'm against punishment anyway.
My motto, talk things over.
When I do something wrong, I have to suffer enough from the fact that I did do something wrong. I prefer to discuss it and learn from it, not have to deal with more pain that will leave me with a bitter memory.
Demona hasn't yet realized she was wrong, and hasn't admitted what she did, because she's still a coward. She was going to run away twice now, once from the Clan, more, or less, to think things over, so that doesn't count.
Now does.
She was going to run away again because that's her method of dealing with a situation she doesn't like is to either emotionally run away from it, for example, shifting the blame to others, or just denying that it happened.
For her to accept what she did was wrong would be the ultimate stage in her becoming a stable being again, or perhaps one of the ultimate stages.
As for her past actions haunting her, well, they've been haunting her for a millenia, but she won't admit it. Both physically, the Hunters, and all that, and in other cases.
Speaking of the Hunters, if Jon Canmore ever did escape from prison, he'd probably attempt to kamikaze Castle Wyvern, or something.
Out of Demona and Jon, Jon's the most unstable, but Demona's the most cowardly.
There'll be a Quote on this at the end of this Post.
That's why she hasn't really progressed as much as some people are thinking. Angela took the initiative and got through to her to a degree, but the real Character Development is not in whether she stops plotting, or not, but in whether she finally accepts responsibility.
If that isn't being handled 'slowly, and to detail', then could you people out there please tell me what is!?
I hope you'll understand this and stop bashing the THE GARGOYLES SAGA Writers, since it seems very well that they darn well know what they're doing.

Goliath and Elisa-Their relationship is not an important focus, but is an aspect that would be handled slowly. It is being handled slowly. If I read SEEDS OF CHANGE right, Elisa made the wrong decision, and this isn't criticizing the authors, its critiquing her. Humans are imperfect, remember? Characters have lives of their own, remember?
Yeah, Elisa probably feels she needs some stability. Now that she has to wait, she'll probably come around, and realize that there are way too many aspects in her life that would allow this to go smoothly.
Or Peter and Diane would explain this.
Goliath made the mistake, too, of rushing into this. Remember, he can be a 'sentimental fool' at times.
He'll probably realize this soon enough.
Or he could be doubly hurt. If I read the story right, they already mated that night in the apartment, so in Gargoyle Terms, they already are mates.
If she decides to back out now, that could really complicate the matter.
The point is, I can't see them fumbling around like Airwalker suggested. Its so utterly against their character that its rediculous.
If the THE GARGOYLES SAGA Staff has the 'Elisa-Goliath Talk' planned like Greg did, I think it'll be coming up some point next Season, and soon.
The whole relationship is complicated, yes, but not in a 'fumbling way'.
As for 'breaking up', actually, they didn't break up for over a month. Elisa just got upset, but they did not break up. There's a world of difference between remaining upset for a while and ceasing to be friends with someone.
I don't consider the kiss at the end of HUNTER'S MOON infamous or anything, I consider it a plausible part of Goliath and Elisa's Character Development concerning their relationship.
I needed to mention that too.

Doug-Err, that was the Morrigan. I wasn't so sure which it was until I noticed the crow on the purple-haired lady's shoulder. I'd thought it was the Morrigan, but pondered the possibility it was Banshee. That pondering went out the window when I noticed the crow on the female's shoulder.
Its the Morrigan.
Definitely.

"Why can't you accept responsibility for your actions!?
"You're a coward!!"-Elhaym 'Elly' van Houten
"That's right! I am a coward!!"-Fei Fong Wong
XENOGEARS
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:21:56 AM
IP: 81.morristown-18-19rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

I think killing Angela would send Demona right back over the deep end. I can't see Demona ever accepting that she herself could be responsible for it in some way. Once again, revenge would be all she felt she had left to her.
Every small step Demona has taken towards redemption has been because of Angela (as in "Perchance to Dream") or something Angela did (as in "Lethe)."

Jenniren
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:20:55 AM
IP: user-2ivf8hp.dialup.mindspring.com

Pissed off-- I agree with what you say about Elisa and Goliath.
Jenna
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:17:40 AM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

DURID - You wrote: ["the great enemy of humanity" - You just answred your own quesiton there. Most of the Gargoyles of the 22nd century get along well with humans, especially in Manhattan. Once Demona's past was known, well....]

I disagree with the idea that in the 22nd century Humans and Gargoyles get along so well that Demona and her past would be hated and feared. It's completely unbelievable to me that within 160 years there would be complete peace between the two races. Humans have been dealing with each other for thousands of years and we still don't get along. How can I accept that in less than 2 centuries we'd start to get along great with a non human race, particularly one that isn't exactly standing on equal footing with us in terms of population and power? (People would have to accept New Olympians because they have the technology to be a force to be reckoned with. Gargoyles don't have that.)

Also there are places like New Olympus that I just can't believe are unique in terms of attitude towards humans, especially when you consider the overall history of Human/Gargoyle relations. I will not accept that in 2 centuries New Olympian Gargoyles will abandon all of their anti-human feelings. It's been festering for 2 thousand years. It's not going to disappear that soon. Other clans might feel the same way. Ignore the major three clans - Manhattan, London, and Ishimura - and focus on clans that have yet to be discovered in the TGS universe. Some are living in isolation and might not have any contact with humanity except for stories passed down over the generations about how humans drove them into hiding. You can't tell me that inside of a few years all of that feeling of hate and resentment is going to disappear.

I can see Ishimuran Gargoyles looking at Demona with distaste. I can see London Gargoyles looking at Demona with shock. I can see Manhattan Gargoyles looking at Demona with more or less indifference since the generation that knew her as evil is more or less gone by that time and they only know a reformed version of her. But that scene in REQUIEM with everyone looking at her in shock and disgust and avoiding her, that I find completely unbelievable. I would have found it more likely that hordes of visiting New Olympians would flock to her to see someone they might consider a hero, someone who stood against humanity for so long, someone who fought humanity and at the same time is cursed to be a human in daylight. I think that seeing Demona's reaction to that, and having to be forced to preach against what she was to a generation that doesn't know the lessons she has learned, that would be interesting. We've already seen Demona being forced to be alone. Why would we want to see more of that?


GOLIATH AND ELISA - I can accept Goliath's asking Elisa but I can't accept Elisa's quick answer of yes. Goliath has a simple idea in his mind because Gargoyles generally seem to cut to the chase and not go through years of angst in terms of falling in love. Two Gargoyle falls in love, and agree to spend the rest of their lives together. That's it. But Elisa isn't a Gargoyle and for her it has to move slower than usual. I understand that there has been an Unseelie War and she had a near death experience. But it's not unique in her time with the Gargoyles. She's been involved in fighting Oberon on Avalon in ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT which is a kind of war with the Fey. She's had a near death experience in DEADLY FORCE. Those two things are not going to change her movement relationshipwise.

ELisa should be the one to be moving slow. She should be dragging this out to the bitter end. She does want a normal life. She wanted one as far back as HIGH NOON. I don't think that desire has disappeared. In fact with Unseelie running around and all that, the desire must have grown a bit. She should be thinking about earlier years before the clan, when life was relatively normal. That would be interesting to see. She wants a normal life but she wants what she has now also. Seeing how she sorts out those feelings, and how they would effect her interaction with the clan could provide tons of stories.

Elisa shouldn't have just said yes. She should have started asking questions like Can we have kids and How can we even live together and so on and so forth. There should be arguements and discussions and angst and fear - the whole range of emotions. And it should take years. It took two years just to have them kiss and to acknowledge their feelings to each other. Why shouldn't it take them more time to move forward with the relationship? So what if it takes 10 years to reach some answer? Some couples move slower than others. Goliath and Elisa should work slower.

Still even now there is opportunity afoot. What will be the reaction of her family? Derek and Peter have to be against it in some way, on some level. How will the rest of the clan react? I mean I can picture a conversation between Elisa and Angela where they are wondering and laughing over the question "Do I call you Mom now?" And there is that whole Gathering in Japan. How will other clans like New Olympus react when they find out that the leader of a clan and the chairman of that meeting is involved with a human? It has to be a major point in that Gathering, one of many major arguements. (THe UN doesn't get along and if all those Gargoyle clans do then I will be tremendously disappointed. They are still divided and many might still be thinking in terms of whats best for their clan rather than what's best for Gargoyles worldwide.) There should be periods of doubt and even a break up for a while. Then finally after all that, after a lot of time, when the everything feels right then I can accept marriage (or commitment or whatever you call it).
Airwalker
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:16:15 AM
IP: 230.new-york-11-12rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Demona's Punishment > As much as Demona might deserve to pay a price for her redemption, the world doesn't always work like that.

There's been a lot of talk about about killing off Angela for the sole purpose of punishing Demona. That doesn't really make much sense to me. Something has to trigger Demona's change of heart. Something tragic. It begins to be a little... belated... when that tragedy happens afterwards. Killing Angela after the fact would only work if Demona were somehow responsible for it.
Scott Iskow - [smiskow@wam.umd.edu]
Gaithersburg, Maryland
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 09:00:56 AM
IP: 156.40.117.111

Morning, all.

JFK Jr.> I'm not entirely apathetic, but I'm not obsessive about this either. I just wish they wouldn't preempt everything to tell us they found a seat cushion or a pedal. At the same time, it is kind of depressing. Why couldn't this have happened to TED Kennedy?

Durid> The G99 mascot - the fairy - is named Bluebonnet.

Arianna> Didn't say this before, but congrats on the AP scores! I only took an AP English exam... but I somehow managed a five and exempted English 101 and World Lit. :)

Bumper stickers and tailgaters> Had to take Route 24, the road that all the psychos take, to get a friend home. I was going 75 miles an hour just to keep from getting run over, and people were flying by me! (The speed limit's 50.) I would personally love a bumper sticker that said "One-Eyed Paranoid Teenage Driver." Anyone in their right mind wouldn't bother tailgating someone like me if they knew. Of course, come Thursday, I won't be a teenager anymore, but who's going to know?

Doug and Kit> Enjoy your vacation! :)

Ash> << who did shoot J.R.? I'm too young to remember.>> To quote a MiSTing I need to finish: "It was Kristen! Kristen!" (The joke makes sense in context. Really.)

Muppets From Space> I'm sticking to my guns on this. So what if the trailers give it away - Gonzo being an alien is the whole premise! Even though it wasn't a surprise, the movie was still a riot.

Coyote> Take your time on "Team Bravo." Yes, I'm excited to see it, but I don't want to rush you. Most of my characters are on Team Delta anyway.

**Mandi stops as several of her Clan Laramie creativity demons start screaming at her.**

Okay, okay... Geez. If it's at all possible, Sheridan wants to be able to blow away a few Rokkans. Talk about trigger-happy. :)

Okay. Have to coax my school e-mail to work now...
Mandolin - [weird_web@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 08:49:54 AM
IP: ch164-10.apgea.army.mil

AIRWALKER - Actually, this is something that we should have made a little clearer in TGS, but apparently didn't; Emrys isn't taking on the nanny job for Alex because Owen turned out to be alive. The only reason why he was offered the position was because everybody thought that Puck was dead and needed a replacement tutor for Alex so that Oberon and Titania wouldn't try taking him away to Avalon again. Since Puck turned out to be alive, Emrys didn't need to take the job and could go back home to Britain after all. Sorry that we didn't make that sufficiently clear in TGS.

KATHY - Well, I wasn't seriously planning on it being a series (the idea of having all the gargoyles except for Demona die out). If it had to be renamed, maybe "A World Without Gargoyles"? Nah, a little too bulky.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 08:31:04 AM
IP: 205-242-191-190.dialup-stl.primary.net

*Xanathar walks into the CR and shouts"HUGBEES"so that the whole room can hear(they had Freakazoid on tv the other day and now I've got the word HUGBEES stuck in my head:))*

Cyrway/Zath/Green Baron>>Welcome back!

Pistoff:That anti Jar Jar Binks site was great and I also agree with you about the JFK jr business the media's going into a feeding frenzy about it as usual.

*HUGBEES*

Coyote:Glad to hear your grandmothers health is improving however slight.

Goodnight all!!
*walks out of the CR but not before saying"HUGBEES" again*:)
Xanathar
Melbourne, victoria, Australia
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 07:17:34 AM
IP: 203.29.192.74

Coyote:Jeah ,thanks..
Exin
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 05:56:43 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Coyote:Jeah ,thanks..
Exin
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 05:56:38 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Aaron: Kewlies! Lookin' forward to it. :)

Robby: Thanks, glad ya liked it. :)

Green Baron: WELCOME BACK! Glad to know you found a job, and I hope it's more than "temporary."

Goliath and Elisa: I'm not sure if their relationship has been going too fast. People are assuming that very little changed after the famous Kiss at the end of Hunter's Moon. It could be that Elisa simply had a revelation--that, at the very moment she met the gargoyles (and certainly due to the fact that her life has become so entwined with theirs since that first night), her chances of having a "normal" life were shot to hell. It could be that she realized that she had something good going with Goliath and decided not to risk ruining it because, who knows if she (or anyone) would ever meet someone who could measure up? It could be that the Kiss broke some sort of barrier in her mind, and everything else just clicked into place. Sometimes things like that happen. Besides, she almost died at the end of the Unseelie war. That could've scared her enough to drop her hopes for a "normal" life and just live each day as if it were her last, because she doesn't know when it *will* be her last.

Coyote: I'm glad your grandmother is improving. Hope she keeps on doing just that. :)

And now I've just got to chime in on the whole JFK Jr. thing. It's really too bad that this happened, but we're hearing too much about it on the news. It seems that this is all they're talking about now. They're acting as if nobody has ever died in a plane crash before. It's headline news because it's somebody famous. People die every day and nobody notices until it's somebody rich and famous.

The same thing happened when Princess Diana died. Mother Theresa died at nearly the same time, but which one got the most air-time? Again, it's a pity that this happened, but was there really a need for the news coverage to continue for friggin' MONTHS?! It was ridiculous. As Harlan Ellison said, "I was disappointed. I was hoping to tune in to Nightline and hear, 'This is Ted Koppel, reporting live from inside Diana's coffin.'"

And in case the room was wiped before anybody could see this, click my name if you hate Jar Jar Binks. :)
Pistoff - [pistoff@outgun.com]
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 03:52:30 AM
IP: wire-8.koalas.com

Doug thinks Henrietta Jones sounds right too?
Argh! I've created a monster (though yet it is but a baby).
Christine, please, forgive me, for I knew not what I did!

Until later, gotta go to work in about half an hor, and I'm planning to shoot some pool first (Virtual pool, that is).

Later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 03:25:55 AM
IP: mp-217-219-151.daxnet.no

****NO RP TONIGHT****
I need to read back and find out what's been going on and where my character is.

I am so happy right now. My classes are over on Thursday, I'll have a month off from school, and I'm turning 20 on Saturday.

Garg Ep- I disagress with all of you who say that this is moving too fast. I think that the wedding should be postponed till next season, but as for the rest I think it's about time their relationship got a shove in the right direction. It's been put off for so long I kept expecting something to happen that would prevent Goliath from proposing or from them anouncing it to the clan.

Asrial's fate- Maybe there was a little TimeDancing thing and Brooklyn drops here off during Goliath's and Elisa's wedding. Wouldn't that be a shocker.

Coyote-Glad to hear that your Grandmother is improving.

See ya later!
Jaden - [smokey1@silcom.com]
Los Alamos, CA
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 01:57:32 AM
IP: pm0-6.vpop1.avtel.net

*stumbles in, slightly inebriated* Yeah, right, I almost wish... *sigh*
Anyway, very good points being brought up about "Seeds of Change."
***** COMMENTS ON NEW TGS EP *****

I agree, things did feel a bit muddled because of so many different plotlines, but I feel that it made things nice in the end, with a sort of closure, but not quite. What's a season finale without a few cliffhangers? :-) I really enjoyed seeing Arthur, even though I have yet to read the series. They all grew on me, since at first I wasn't really interested in reading "Pendragon." As for E&G, I got the impression that Elisa almost just wanted to rush into things before she could stop and think about it. That's understandable though because she almost died, and perhaps is thinking she should be more impulsive ("Carpe Diem")instead of so cautious all the time. I think what else I wanted to say has already been said.

***** END COMMENTS *****

Kaioto> You and your teaser trailers! *tries to think of something appropriate to throw at him, but can't, so exits the room instead* ;-)
Blue Caeru
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 01:33:22 AM
IP: spider-th031.proxy.aol.com

Hello everyone.
Finally, the CR's back. I swear, every time I came to post it was down. Of course, I also didn't have a lot of time to post thus far. I also barely had time to make it tonight. I only got home from work at eleven forty-five. I hate closing shifts. But anyway, if things in this post are outdated or whatnot, blame the CR being down. :)

August birthdays> Coolness. You know, until I got to high school, I only knew one other person with an August birthday. Now I know bunches. August will be a fun month around here. :)

Xena's punishment> She's being punished. She has to deal with Gabrielle. Not to mention Joxar. :)

Kaioto> AP scores> That's incredible! I'm thinking if I ever get a five on any AP exam, it would almost have to be French, as that's the only thing I have enough talent for :). But for all the work that I swore could not possibly be worth it, I'm really glad to have taken the AP in History, and even more, in Chemistry. Even though I don't get to skip Chemistry in college, I do get out of most, if not all, lab work. So I'm happy, because I swear I spent more time in the lab than anywhere else this year. As for finishing college in four years as opposed to three...you're not a slacker. If I had the choice of starting college with sophomore standing or just taking less courses...I'd never, ever start college as a sophomore. That would be waaayyy too hard. Not that I'd ever have that option. :)


Demona debate (ie, punishment...yeah, it's old, but I didn't get to put this in earlier 'cause the room was down. :) I saw mention somewhere of Star Trek cliches. (What immediately pops into mind -- the fact that it was always the guy wearing red who died. I always wanted to warn him..."don't go off by yourself, you're being used as a plot device, and you're gonna die!") I have one question concerning if Angela was killed off "as a punishment" for Demona : Who would kill her? If it were humans, wouldn't that just be giving her all the more reason to want to obliterate the entire human species? Tying it into Star Trek cliches, think of Khan. (This is where the random thought processes kick in. :) Though it's slightly different, when Kahn's wife was killed, because of those little parasitic creatures who were blown off their home planet of Ceti Alpha Six, he thought that was Kirk's fault because he believed that Kirk had thought Khan and the others were put on Ceti Alpha Six (I might have the numbers reversed here...I really can't remember very well. I have to watch that movie again. :) as opposed to Ceti Alpha Five, or something like that. Either way, he blamed Kirk not only for his captivity, which was enough to make him want to kill him, but also for the death of his wife, which Kirk had nothing to do with. No matter what actually happens to Angela, Demona might just assume that it "had to be the humans", and go off on a little killing spree. Killing Angela would be very dramatic, I'll agree with that. But short of Demona actually killing her (by accident, of course) herself, and being able to acknowledge it as her fault, it presents a lot of problems. Just my two cents on the subject. Tying it in, of course, to Trek. :)

Cyrway, Zath, Green Baron> Welcome back!

Kyryn, JEB> Thanks! :)

JFK Jr> I'll add in my two cents. Just because...why not? :) I'm not a Kennedy fan. For whatever reason that is. I feel really bad for the family, though. I haven't quite figured out what somebody did way back in time to make them all end up dying...but it must've been pretty bad. JFK Jr. was someone that I liked...one of the only, if not the only Kennedy I liked. He had a long full life ahead of him...and it could have been pretty interesting to watch. It's a shame that he left this world so young.

A thought that occurred to me while reading Todd's post that included something about the French Huguenots (excuse the rotten spelling)...Louis XIV really screwed up a lot of things for France, didn't he. So much for the Sun King. If you look at it, the French Revolution was really a by-product of his reign...Louis XVI never had a chance, given the fact that he was really not that adept at governing. But anyway. I just don't trust anybody who goes around saying "L'etat, c'est moi." I mean, right there... Ok, sorry, I went off a little. I really don't like Louis XIV. And it's sooo late.

Coyote> Good to hear about the improvement! :)

Well, I'm going to attempt to go to bed now. Which probably won't happen for about ... three hours, as I just finished dinner and I had a Diet Coke with it. Not the smartest thing I've done lately...but hey, not the dumbest either. :) See y'all later!


Lady Arianna of Annwn
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 01:30:59 AM
IP: mid-qbu-nqu-vty11.as.wcom.net

Well, at least the server's back up, eh? And we've got a CR Administrator back … sigh … now if we just had a proper pair …

Nice Midi Robby.

SJ: Excellent. I don't truly know why, but Farscape is one of my favorites right now … maybe it is the Henson factor, eh?

JFK Jr. : Living in Boston, I guess this really rattles people here a little more than most places, but I just can't seem to get worked up over anything but the rabid media attention behind this. We had a school teacher kidnapped and gone missing … a statewide appeal and hunt for her or her body … her clothes found in a pond, and continuing news coverage bringing more and more feedback and awareness, helping the case along rapidly … and then suddenly it is gone from the news totally … over one spoiled brat with a plane and two people close to him … the Kennedy aristocracy in my home state of Massachusetts just disgusts me, and I despise the sniveling Kennedy worshippers out here that talk about how noble their family is for not just sitting on their money and doing nothing … Yeah, instead they took their money, founded on rum-running and bootlegging in Prohibition and turned it into political clout so they could take their never-worked-a-day-in-my-life inherited-wealth bloated butts into government and use ~other~ people's money and create laws that don't apply to the Kennedy Clan, but everyone else. With such sterling achievements as Senator Ted buying himself a government degree from Harvard University and Little Mike Kennedy committing both adultery and statutory rape with his children's baby-sitter, is it any wonder I'm convinced all the good Kennedy's were already dead? And out of all those alive now, John Jr. was the only one with a real job and life outside of personal political office. Sure, he's owning a company, but at least he was doing Something with "George" that didn't involve my taxes … It is a pity, but just another sorry tale like anyone else's.

Anyway, I've become the victim of a very rabid creativity demon and a spare Sunday with a notebook … badness … much badness … Any day you outline the plot arc of a creativity demon and come up with a 28 episode series complete with names and plot synopses you know your lunch breaks and first semester classes are doomed …

I dunno, maybe someday I'll actually have a spot in the Gargs fiction archive … until then, I guess story bits will have to keep gaining cohesion.

From "Ashes, ashes …":
Richard shook his head and pushed a stray strand back from his eyes as he fumbled the door key, his left arm cradling a Walgreen's bag loaded with everything from Children's Tylenol to chewable Pepto. He finally turned the knob and walked into their apartment. Setting the sack down on the pantry counter, he scratched behind his ear thoughtfully. Something was wrong. Something was out of place. Richard immersed his mind in the silence around him to discover what was out of place.
Silence.
Hope was not making any fuss. Hope was never asleep at this hour, not even when she was sick. A number of logical scenarios all ran through his mind … and out the other side as some sort of unfamiliar panic button went off in his guts. Richard knew his mom must've felt this kind of twinge of hysteria whenever he or George had been unusually ill, but there was something else wrong, something his mind could not deny his heart. Richard loped into the bedroom quickly, his left hand unconsciously forming and releasing a fist

From "Shadows of Camelot":
"Richard," it was now Arthur's turn to whisper, "I could not bear to send another good man to his death by my poor judgement, not on ~this~ quest … not again." Arthur struggled as his voice tried to flee him, "Nor you family … not another family ruined …"
Richard felt the cold anger lacing his muscles and bones seep out of him as the King of all Britain spoke his peace. It was now Richard's role to look into the eyes of the vulnerable man in front of him … and all he could gather from those suddenly weary eyes were memories of times passed, friends lost, and family shattered … and somewhere, more deeply than the rest of the pain … Richard could somehow feel one name haunting Arthur Pendragon, "Mordred"

From "Dust to Dust":
"No," Duval whispered weakly as he half-ran/half-staggered forwards from his guardsmen. He stumbled up the few stares and shoved Richard to one side violently to see into the stone jar himself.
"No," he stated louder, shoving his hand into the granite container.
He removed his clenched fist slowly, watching as the fine powdered sand trailed from his grasp to the urn itself. "NO!" he finally shrieked, shoving his hand back down into the hole. With a snarl he took the cover in his free hand and raised it above his head menacingly. "Bloody savages!" he cursed, "Damn them all! After a thousand years of preservation, this imbecilic tribe of monkeys could not figure out how to make a simple wax seal!"
Richard watched the Illuminati leader dissolve into a gibbering fit from his new position at the bottom of the daises. He watched with the sort of bemused detachment only a man who'd just had his still beating heart ripped from his chest could possess …

****

Well, I dunno why I put those there, I suppose it just makes the post look like it had a purpose, eh? Maybe someday I'll finish "Ashes, ashes" and then only have 26 stories to post until "Dust to Dust" … anyway … this writing stuff is dangerous … I should've never read Mallory in high school, and should never have found that pen yesterday, now I'm doomed…

*shakes his head and wanders out*

Toku Kaioto - [Kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Tuesday, July 20, 1999 12:06:29 AM
IP: 1cust20.tnt1.brockton.ma.da.uu.net

***BEGIN RP*****
SJ, Wilek, and their respective teams stared in disbelief and horror at the small army of Borg Gungans.
"They're....they're so annoying!" SJ shouted.
"They're stereotypically racist!" Kari yelled.
"They taste great!" Forfexx said gleefully, then he morphed his hands into two large, sickle-like blades, which he used to promptly disembowel a nearby Gungan.
"Killa them alla! Theysa must diesa!" Jar Jar Borg shouted in his ridiculous, so-annoying-I-can't-understand-a-word-he's-saying voice.
With that, the battle was engaged. Raoul lunged at one nearby Gungan, ripping into the creature's flesh with his claws as the Hounds did likewise. Kari locked spears with one particularly large Gungan male, the alien struggling to get an edge over her.
Miriam delivered a vicious spin-kick to one of the pathetic creatures' heads. With a howl of pain, the alien doubled over, while SJ came along and promptly gave it a quick knee thrust to knock it into unconsciousness.
Dark Mage Wilek seemed to be pondering something as he effortlessly kept one rampaging Gungan at bay. "Hmm....which spell to choose....." He stared at the Gungan attempting to attack him. "I think I know the right one." He sneered. "Shalafi, pax tharkas, mirax terrick!" he shouted, and a green mist began to form, promptly enveloping the Gungan. At first, the alien just blinked. Then he began to scream as the mist slowly dissolved his skin.....soon, chunks of its anatomy were beginning to fall off, as his body quickly rotted into nothing but a puddle of ooze on the ground. "Instantaneous putrification and liquidity! My, I haven't used that one in a while!"
Wilek, however, had set his sights upon Jar Jar Borg. "Okay, you sad excuse for a comic sidekick, it's just you and me!" The two slowly circled each other, preparing for battle, Jar Jar bearing his spear and Wilek his talons....
****PAUSE RP*****

Oh my, what a day today. Spent most of the day creating Microsoft Powerpoint files for a CS class I'm taking, then trying (eventually successfully) to take those files, save them as html, and post them on a web page. Jesus, don't I understand why compgeeks make so much money.
Then of course, I had to spend the whole afternoon fixing the piece of (censored for your protection) that is my car. One of the sparkplugs burned up. No, really. The threads of the plug were *so* charred, the plug almost disintegrated in my hand.

To all of you who plan to see the Blair Witch Project (and I assume none of you have seen it so far, since no one has given a review or mentioned they saw it), you may be happy to hear that the movie made 1.5 million dollars this weekend. Not bad, considering it was only on 27 screens...in the entire country. Also not bad considering it only cost about 30 grand to make the thing. I'm practically drooling till the 30th, when it goes wide.....

Farscape fans: I heard over the weekend that the show has been renewed for a second season, 22 episodes worth. This really pleases me, cause Farscape is one of the best sci-fi shows on tv, IMO. It's funny, it's got some great characters, I like the action, and the set and costume design is awesome. For a while there, it looked like the show may be canceled (thanks to my *least* favorite "director, author" George Lucas), but now thinks are back on track.

****SPOILERS FOR NEW USA SHOW "G vs. E"*****
I heard a lot of people raving about this show across fandom. I saw it, and....well, it was *okay*. It was *so-so*. Most of the time it looked like a more upbeat ripoff of Brimstone. And the special fx--Jesus but they sucked! They put the "Kraft deluxe American" in cheesy. I don't know--I suppose that I'll give this show the benefit of the doubt. Crusade is a great show, IMO, and it's first episode...wasn't that great.
Overall though, I wasn't impressed. I'm a little disappointed.
****END SPOILERS****

Eyes Wide Shut: The thing I find funny about the movie is, on screen Tom and Nicole have no chemistry....and they're married in real life!
And I don't want to go into all the rumors about him....but this movie did seem to be one big advertisement that "Tom's NOT gay!" I mean.....that guy tries too hard to prove he's not.....

Kill all the Gargoyles! *SJ reads Todd's post* GREAT IDEA!!!! The point many of you aren't getting, is I don't think Todd meant to have an entire *series* be about a post-gargoyle extinction world (although, I must admitt it would be awfully interesting), but perhaps a "elseworlds" or alternative story (singular, folks) would be appropriate. Now THAT is true punishment for Demona! She's alone in the world....and if she kills the humans out of revenge, she's even more alone! I love it! The b!tch gets it in the end! BWAH HA! BWAH HA HA HA!!!!

Doug: The teaming of Chow and Mira Sorvino was called "The Replacement Killers", of which I actually enjoyed greatly. Sure, it's little more than one long MTV video, but it was a lot of fun!

Robby: Waittaminute....Chuck Norris said he was as good as Jackie Chan? **SJ takes several minutes to laugh histerically** Yeah, he WISHES. If your a fan of Chuck, please forgive me, but the man is a no-talent, pathetic excuse for an actor who somehow turns a buck with a godawful tv show that only wins the ratings because it's in a timeslot with no real competition. Jackie Chan is a man in his forties who has forgot more moves than Chuck will ever know, and never fails to entertain.

The JFK Jr. thing: I actually am totally apathetic about this. I feel absolutely nothing about his apparent death whatsoever. I'm sorry for the Kennedy clan, even though I'm not their biggest fan, because this does seem to be just one more tragedy in a long list. And I think Jr. should have shown a little more thought than to fly in hazy weather at night, when he was not a skilled pilot. But I really, *really* hate all the vultures who pass as the news media, who will use this opportunity to piss on this man's grave as they show endless upon endless ream of JFK Jr. footage. The man was loved--okay. No need to turn your network into the "all JFK channel, all the time". Say your respects, mourn him, then let it go. Of course, ratings are more important to them.

***RESUME RP****
Meanwhile, back amongst the Borg babies....
"Ha! Finally!" Stewie cried. He grinned triumphantly. "I have finally brought some of the weapons back on line!"
"Yeah, and I'm sure I didn't do most of the work..." Brendan muttered under his breath, but if Stewie heard him, he didn't bother to reply.
"Which weapons?" Tommy Pickle asked.
"The ones to protect us, of course! In simpler terms for the intellectually challenged morons in the room, the weapons lining the corridor leading to this engine room!" Stewie laughed wickedly. "The heroes will be reduced to several large, bloody pieces before they even reach the engines!"
****END RP FOR NOW*****
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 11:41:13 PM
IP: 207-172-120-226.s226.tnt14.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

Robby> welcome back

Green Baron> Welcome back

SPOLIERS FOR SEEDS OF CHANGE
Very good episode to end the season with TGS and very nice pics as well. It was about time that we saw what was going on in London and to see how the London clan was doing. So Michael named his daughter after his monther. It looks like Fauleonbridge and Imogen are going to get together because that is what it looked liked. So now we know that there is a Clan in China. I guess that is 8 of the 12 Clans that we know of so far.
Elisa and Goliath> So they are going to become mates. i guess that is aokay but I too thought that it was a little fast.
Demona> She was shocked to hear that Goliath and Elisa becoming mates. We all know that probably that she won't etend their mateing cermoney. But she to well get a mate but not until 2168.
END SPOLIERS

Iago/Coldsteel> I as well would like to see more of him in season 3. Also I would like to see more of him in the Dark Ages. Because in the episode Legion Iago said to Othello see how Goliath stills your love away it was the same a thousand years ago. I wounder if he well try to do just that this season. Before Goliath and Demona get togeher. So Iago can trick Othello to think that Desdemona is cheating on him with Goliath.

Can't wait until season two of the Dark Ages begings
Lawrence Stone - [craft_celtic@yahho.com]
Chillicothe, Ohio, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 11:31:42 PM
IP: chil-ras2-2-cs-10.dial.bright.net

Coyote - That IS good news. I hope your grandmother continues to recover. It must be horrible to be hooked up to a respirator.

Airwalker wrote [...couples fight so it's not too much to ask that Goliath and Elisa, Broadway and Angela, and Brooklyn and Sata occasionally fight with each other.]

Brooklyn and Sata had the occasional disagreement in Timedancer, but not so much in Gargoyles. I'm not sure they have that much to fight about at the moment. Maybe a disagreement about how to discipline the kids? I really don't think it would be realistic for Broadway to raise his voice to Angela. He seems to me more of the kind of guy who'd just sit there and take it until Angela got it out of her system. Elisa and Goliath are another matter. They both have tempers. I'm surprised they don't disagree more than they have. And I think their romance does seem to be progressing a bit quickly. Maybe they're just being inspired by the other marriages that have been going on around them.

***SPOILER WARNING?***
Airwalker wrote [I'm shocked that Tony would be so willing to throw away an opportunity like Vince... It would just be bad business...]

I agree. It makes no sense to me to have Dracon turn Vince away. Why risk having Vince find work with the Yakuza or some other competitor?

Ed wrote [Stories which muddle through a boiling pot of plots without dwelling long enough on them to make them really come to life rarely gains my interest. Such is the case here. So much here seems like a half-hearted attempt at a range of stories rather than a whole-hearted attempt at one.]

I agree with you and Doug on this. It was kind of a kitchen sink type of episode.

I'm not sure how the "Gathering of Gargoyles" idea is going to work out. It sounds really impractical. But I'll suspend judgment until I see how its handled next season.

I do so hate cliffhangers.
Jenniren
Monday, July 19, 1999 11:15:07 PM
IP: user-2ivf8kl.dialup.mindspring.com

Skippy: The less they show of the monster, the better the movie will be? What happened with the most recent make of Godzilla then?

Fanfic Progress: Mainly focused on TGS stuff right now, some DA stories and outlines for the main cycle. But Mr. Fugit has been bouncing around my mind so much that I have to write a story about him soon or I'll be bouncing off the wall of my room!

AIRWALKER - "the great enemy of humanity" - You just answred your own quesiton there. Most of the Gargoyles of the 22nd century get along well with humans, especially in Manhattan. Once Demona's past was known, well....

@#$% running out of time. Blessed Be everyone!

**RP exit**
Durid brings his fingers to his lips and gives a shrill whistle. A small glowing form suddenly darts before him. "Back to Minnesota please." And the farie from Texas picks up him and flys away with him.
**End RP exit**

P.S. Does that Farie that was with the G'99 mascott have a name?
Durid the Druid - [durid@uswest.net]
MN, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 10:39:37 PM
IP: xdialup194.mpls.uswest.net

**enters the room, switching out the candles once more, thereby getting caught up for missing a day because of server problems.**

Ohhh DC ... c'mere ...

**DC approaches with trepidation. Coyote latches his hand around DC's throat, doing a similar motion to what Vincent did to Nokkar in "Team Alpha."**

There. Conference adjourned. **sits down in the big chair**

Well now ... what to talk about ...

Exin: The pic on my front page is *not* my artwork. The credit for the lovely pic of Rosanna and Rain belongs to Cyrway. Speaking of whom ...

Cyrway: Welcome back, Ace!!!

Kyryn: What an incredible coinkydink! (Actually, the reason why I picked the date is because it's my grandmother's birthday ... 8/26/99 is her 80th.)
Speaking of whom ...

Status: They're trying to wean my grandmother off of the respirator now. Looking up! :)

Aaron: I already sent you an e-mail with the important details of Agent Cooper's involvement ... but I will say right here that I'm not above putting Rosenthal into the story, too ...

Stephen: Congrats on the new job!! Oh, and check yer e-mail.
You shouldn't have to wait very long for "Team Eagle." Don't worry, if I can release them any earlier, I will.

Stray, Rob: A most humble welcome, friend. :)

**sits back in the big chair, focusing on the candles' flames again.**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Monday, July 19, 1999 10:03:20 PM
IP: modem57.i-is.com

**RP HERE**

"Damn it," Guod is cursing inside the Devastator's control room. "I sent out a ship full of reinforcements from the Breakfast Crew and OJ knocked it down with one shot! My Borg are dropping like flies." "Uh, don't worry, boss," says Borg-Stuart. "We still have Napoleon's legions, the Huns, the ACLU, and the Pokemon out there. They can hold out long enough for Brendan and Stewie to have the engine fixed. Then all we have to do is dig a little deeper, drop in the nanites, and this planet belongs to us." "You're right, Stuart," Butt-Borg says. "Everything will be fine." Guod sighs. "You guys had better be right!"

Elsewhere in the Devastator, Doug, Kit, and those with them are walking through the Devastator's halls alert for any danger. They suddenly hear a sound up ahead. "Lello!" Boris immediately fires, narrowly missing a Borg-Teletubbie. "These guys," Doug says as the four Teletubbies, along with their rabbit and weirdo elephant creature pals, leap out and begin firing machine guns to scatter the Ravens. "I wondered when they'd show up." He and the others fire back, taking down the green, red, and yellow teletubbies in a spray of bullets and explosive shells. Tinky-winky throws a barrage of bombs back at them from his purse, forcing the Ravens to dodge and avoid. Lathrop casts a meteor swarm to take him out and it ends up obliterating the rabbits and weirdo elephant creature as well. "Phew," Kit sighs as she surveys their latest act of carnage. "That takes care of them, I guess." Doug nods. "Let's keep moving." As they do so, he turns to make a post.

**END RP 1ST HALF**

Hey everyone. Glad to see the room back up, wonder what happened this time. <sighs> Oh well, at least the downtime wasn't that long. So on with the post.

Fanfic Progress: I'm about halfway through Voyage, and at an important scene. Namely, Rachel vs. Garlon. :) Fic may be done sooner than I thought, hope to have it out in early August. Kit and I will be taking a vacation to Schlitterbahn Water Park once it's done, it should be well-deserved. Thanks to everyone who's been sending me feedback lately, hope it keeps coming in. :)

BTW, I'm also interested in finding an artist to do a pic of a new character for my next story. If anyone knows somebody who can draw Japanese gargoyles well, and will take free commissions, please give me their name, e-mail, and homepage if any. Hope to find someone soon.

Aaron: Michelle Yeoh and Chow Yun Fat? That would be cool. Definitely better than Chow and Mira Sorvino (I think they did a movie together, it wasn't that great). Hope it gets made soon. I too want to see Fang again.

Favorite Eps: Gargs- Consequences, Turncoat, Reprisals, The Rising, Lethe, Longest Day. Pendragon- Into the Woods, My Fair Lady, Quest's End. Dark Ages- Prince of Thieves, Alliances. Timedancer- Midnight Showdown (hoping for a follow-up episode to this later in TD, I really want to see Sata in the Wild West), The Promise, Sun and the Serpent, Menagerie.

Christine: Alright, we can name him whatever you want. I too think her real name is probably Henrietta. Wonder what Brendan will think of it. :)

Demona Debate: It's already been said why I think she's worthy of redemption. As for her punishment, I agree that there should be one and that it should be dramatic and build on Demona's character. It also shouldn't be too terrible so it doesn't make her even crazier. I agree that a forced "atonement quest" of some kind is probably best. Maybe Elisa, Goliath, Macbeth, Xanatos, Brooklyn, and Angela could get together to think up something suitable. :)

Welcome back to Robby, Green Baron, and everyone else who has returned!

Stray: Welcome to the CR.

**BEGIN SPOILERS FOR NEW TGS EPISODE**

Seeds of Change: This one had its good and bad points. The first of the good ones was that we got to see action in both Manhattan and England. Since we haven't been getting too many Pendragon eps lately, this was very welcome. I also liked how interesting the Pendragon subplot was, the Illuminati framing Arthur has real plot potential. Wonder what Banshee has to do with it (I know from the pic it was her on the dock). Hope to see more on this next season. Some of the New York action was also good, I liked seeing the flashback (IMO, it's about time we saw that Halloween party!) and the character development on Demona (I too liked the idea of her getting drunk). Nice development on Matt, Angela, and Xanatos too. I look forward to the Gathering at Gargoyles World. :) The pics were also very well-done, especially the one of Brooklyn and his family. Good job on that one, Spike.

There were also quite a few bad points in this one. I agree that there were a few too many plots mixed in and the story got muddled because of that. Broadway did seem a little out of character in the scene with him and Demona, Airwalker's already said why. Then there was the fact that we never got to see a lot of Brooklyn's Aftermath Quest. We still don't know how the Caledonian Clan's fight ended (we know that Kylie and probably Morrigan and a few others are still alive, but who's dead?), or the fate of Natsilane (I'm gonna assume he got killed, no way an apprentice shaman could stand up to all the Unseelie that attacked him in Darkest Hour 1. Unless Grandmother came to his aid, he has to be dead). I also wanted to see the Chinese clan, it's kinda dissapointing that we'll have to wait till next season. <sighs> Oh well.

The Goliath-Elisa romance in this fic was nice to see, but I agree that it's moving a little quickly (though Kathy does make some good points). Maybe something's gonna happen next season that'll shake things up and postpone fulfillment a little. <grin> Overall, this was a pretty good story. It created a lot of new plots that I can bet will be important next season, and left a good cliffhanger ending on both fronts. I give it 6/10 stars, thumbs diagonal but leaning towards up. Hope we get some new TGS seasons starting shortly.

**END SPOILERS ON NEW TGS EP**

David G: Good comments about Demona. All the fics I'd recommend to you have already been mentioned, hope you read and enjoy them all. If you read mine, I should warn you that most of the earlier ones have a lot of imperfections. My writing gets better, but it takes a while. Hope you can handle that. :) I'll appreciate your feedback if you do read.

Mandi: Thanks for the recommendation. :)

Stephen: $ Okay, hope you jump back in soon. $ Congrats on your new job.

JEB: Thanks for the congrats, and the feedback.

Ash: So Timedancer Season 3 will start in September? Thanks, glad someone told me. And JR's shooting was revealed to be a dream (yes, that upset me, too).

That's all for tonight. Kit and I will be back later in the week with reviews of Blair Witch Project, and this weekend we're gonna see Inspector Gadget and whatever other good-looking films come out. Ta ta for now.

**BACK TO THE RP**

The Ravens reach a junction in the passageways. "Check our radar mapping," Doug says. "Left goes to the largest room in here," Kit says after doing so. "That has to be the control center." "Alright," Doug nods. "Let's go left. "I hope everything outside is going okay," says Jammer. "I'm worried about Tricia, Gubio, and Steph." "They'll be fine," Shap says. "Let's take care of business in here, alright?" They all nod and keep searching. Suddenly a figure runs out towards them. It's revealed to be an assimilated Borg Guy Al (from South Park). "Will you be my special friends?" he asks the male Ravens, extending his assimilation tentacles. "No," Doug calmly replies, firing his shotgun and burning the weirdo to a crisp. "Bet you're not feeling so super now, huh?" Jammer quips as BGA falls over dead. The team's laughter is interrupted by more footfalls from up ahead. "Great," Kitainia says as they spot four figures approaching. "Now what?" "Chicken-butt," Buckley's demon chuckles as the four remaining assimilated King of the Hill characters step out. The Ravens get ready to face them as the screen goes blank.

**RP OVER, BUT WILL BE CONTINUED**
Doug - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Monday, July 19, 1999 09:43:13 PM
IP: pool-209-138-162-68.dlls.grid.net

DAVID G - The name of the second Robin who was killed was Jason Todd.


JAMES BIRDSONG - That might happen but when I mentioned Ex-Husband I was thinking more of Goliath than Macbeth although now that you point it out, technically that title would apply more to Macbeth than Goliath.


DEMONA DEBATE CONTINUED - While I do agree that Demona has to pay for what she has done and that in a better world she would pay, the Gargoyles Universe is a realistic one and sometimes the scales don't always balance out. I don't hear anyone complaining about how Xanatos hasn't paid for what he has done from AWAKENINGS to HUNTERS MOON 3.


KATHY - I do agree that in many cases three years is enough to reach a point in a relationship where two people can decide if they want to remain friends or more. But I don't think that Goliath and Elisa is one of those cases. Don't forget that it took then two years just to acknowledge that they even had feelings for each other. It should take much longer for them to be able to move forward than just three years.

Also while it hasn't all been great and we have seen some ups and downs, they still seem to be moving too fast. Elisa is a careful person. When I say that, I mean a much more slow moving person that Goliath would be. For a Gargoyle, it's simple. If you find love then the two individuals just acknowledge that and spend the rest of their lives together. It's not that easy in Elisa's case. Goliath should be willing to move much faster than her. Besides while I understand the hopeless romantic that lurks in every Gargoyles fan wants to see them come together, it seems to me to be going way too fast and not being complicated enough. So they can't go out of a normal date. That's not enough. Things like "Can we have children together, Can we even live together?" have to pop up long before they agree to marry. Other complications should arise. Peter and Derek should be up in arms over this. It should be a major issue at the Gargoyles Council (Imagine Goliath trying to chair that council and the New Olympians find out he has a human mate. There should be massive protests and walkouts possibly leading to the collapse of the whole idea). At this point it just seems too easy.
Airwalker
Monday, July 19, 1999 09:32:40 PM
IP: 234.new-york-26-27rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Hello all. Firstly, to those of you who said nice things about SEEDS OF CHANGE, thank you. To Ed, I must say I'm disappointed. We did an episode that had both Pendragon and Delilah in it. Based on recent comments, I was sure it was going to be a hit with you.

Since my work on TGS is now totally in the past, and my knowledge of the future of the series is sketchy at best, I'd like to ramble a bit about one or two things that have been commented on. Since I'm not nearly as eloquent as some of the folks who hang out in here, I hope you'll bear with me.

Goliath and Elisa: Maybe it's because my life experience is different from some of the commentors but three years is plenty enough time to decide if they're going to be friends or more. Granted, they've got the interspecies thing happening, but even factoring that in, once you've acknowledged how you feel the next logical step is to act.
And I would like to point out that it hasn't been all roses. This is a couple that can't go on a date without something screwing it up, even if it's just a bad case of nerves. And they disagree and the fight. They broke up for over a month this season over Goliath's handling of Demona in "Lethe" and Elisa nearly died recently and from personal experience I know that alters your world view big time.
But they managed to resolve their differences, because their relationship is built on all the right foundations. Will it be easy now that they're making a permenant committment? Not likely. Because they'll face all the things that permenent partners do plus their own unique problems... just like all couples.

Demona > A hot topic as always. Is Demona reformed? Nope. Is Demona approaching a point in her redemption curve where she might acknowledge that she's made some really poor life choices? She's getting there. The recent comparison with Demona and Xena left out one minor point: Xena's already acknowledged her past. Demona hasn't. She still believes she did what she did because it was necessary. She hasn't had to face up to the consequences of her actions except for once in TGS when Angela laid down the law and told her mother that if she wanted a relationship then she'd best not mess with Angela's clan or friends. What made that incident unique in Demona's experience was that was the first time she cared enough to abide by the ground rules.
Demona is not a gargoyle in touch with her feelings. She has a unique ability to disassociate her actions from her emotions, operating on two different levels. At some future point when she does gain enough trust to connect both levels she is going to be in for some really gut wrenching, soul searing times. She's been getting small twinges of late and she doesn't know how to deal with them. Her instint is to run as far and fast away from those who are causing the changes in her personality, but she's not really willing to break those bonds now that they've formed. Demona has miles to go before she can rest comfortably.

Todd > If you killed all the gargoyles and left everyone else then what would you call the series?

Forget who asked - Airwalker maybe? The blonde Xander was talking to and who was later killed was Harmony, one of the "Cordettes".

To those with loved ones on the mend, speedy recovery.
Until next time...
kathy
Monday, July 19, 1999 09:01:03 PM
IP: mail.avon.com

Rob> You'll have to wait till this September... damn those cliffhangers! btw... who did shoot J.R.? I'm too young to remember.
Ash
Monday, July 19, 1999 08:14:01 PM
IP: yktnsk01d01030127.sk.sympatico.ca

Is the Timedancer series over for the season, or is someone going have to kill me to end my tourment over what happened to Brooklyn.
Rob Bullock - [burnt3@beer.com]
Mt. Airy, MD, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 08:11:57 PM
IP: spider-tf012.proxy.aol.com

***TGS Spoilers****

Another episode that would make Servarius gag :) But that's okay I guess, for I'm going to let the romantics on TGS get it out of their system and get back to the things about gargoyles that the rest of us can like. I am not comfortable with romance in gargoyles I'm afraid, mostly because it was understated in the original series. There was the sexual tension of Elisa and Goliath, but no real romance. Fox and Xanatos, while they were romantic and enjoyed eachother's company, were never ever mushy. After all, their idea of fun was turning Fox's former teammates into freaks of nature and pitting them against the gargoyles in a glorified chess game, not a boat ride down the tunnel of love.
However, the Pendragon element of this episode was great. We finally get Arthur trying to adapt to his current surroundings, and dealing with the problems of a smeared name. Nothing would urk a honourable (mythical) medieval knight more than to be accused of a crimes that he did not commit. I thought Arthur's desire to stand up and defend himself to the authorities was almost appropriate.
Demona getting drunk... great idea! Though I was expecting her to get pissed out of her mind, tear up a parking metre and go smash things up. Or else go joygliding with a really big gun. I imagine Demona would be the meanest drunk in the world. *laffs*
This would have put some conflict into the Elisa/Goliath relationship too. After all, Angela and Goliath would both feel incredibly guilty. Angela for not finding a better way to break the news, and Goliath... well Goliath would feel guilty because gargoyles are supposed to mate for life, and he might feel that he betrayed her. (Yes I know Goliath has almost been killed by her several times, but he still loved her and tried to reclaim her several times in spite of that.) He might even cast doubts into Goliath's mind about whether he should "marry" Elisa, and trust me, if you want a woman to hate you, call of an engagement with her ;)
Only one thing really bothered me this episode, and has been bothering me for the past two seasons is "Me and soandso are going to become mates" Become mates? I'm sorry that sounds so corny and fake that it just makes me cringe.
Ash
Monday, July 19, 1999 07:34:09 PM
IP: yktnsk01d01030127.sk.sympatico.ca

Aaron- The song 500 Miles is originally by the Proclaimers, a fairly unknown group except for that one song. And since I haven't played the part of CR DJ in too long, and it IS a catchy tune, I'm tossing in a link. Also, it pretty much is ONLY the refrain, which is likely why that's all you remember...

"If I could walk 500 miles then I would walk 500 more, just to be the man who walked 1000 miles to fall down at your door..."

And its basically that bit over and over, with one or two other lines about waking up... I could send ya the whole thing via e-mail if ya want.

Aris- So I'm not religious... Okay then...
Robby the CR DJ
Monday, July 19, 1999 07:31:53 PM
IP: spider-ta035.proxy.aol.com

ARIS - Actually, wiping out the entire gargoyle race except for Demona wouldn't mean that there'd be nobody left with stories to tell except for Demona. Because there'd still be the humans, fay, and New Olympians. You'd have Elisa coping with the loss of her friends, Castaway after the initial elation that he feels on the demise of the entire gargoyle race suddenly realizing that now he's got nobody to use for a handy whipping-boy over his shooting and maiming his own brother, Matt continuing to investigate the Illuminati, Puck dealing with the fact that he's stuck as Owen all the time except when tutoring Alex - and the stories about their magic lessons, King Arthur's adventures in the modern world (which could continue even with Griff being no more), the New Olympians making their embassy to the United Nations, and so on. There are enough non-gargoyle characters in the Gargoyles Universe that the series could continue without the gargoyles (although it would need a new name). And let's not forget that intergalactic war that Nokkar's a part of.

A Huguenot is a French Protestant. There were a number of them in France at first during the 16th and 17th centuries, until Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes that granted them tolerance and began persecuting them, upon which they fled the country. It turned out to be a big mistake on Louis's part, since the Huguenots were among his most intelligent and talented subjects, so that by driving them out of France, he lost their services.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 19, 1999 06:53:06 PM
IP: 205-242-93-167.dialup-stl.primary.net

Glimmer> Even after Demona realised she was a mother, she proceeded to clone the whole clan and then attempted to wipe out all humanity. That was in the Gargoyles series. In TGS she did nothing, her point of change therefore not being her discovery of Angela, but the change from canon to fanfic.

Robby> Actually since you don't believe in religion, that makes you non-religious. You have to believe there is no god to be an atheist. If you believe there's a god but simply don't believe it's any of the Judeochristian, Muslim, Norse, or so on deities - that's not atheism.

The 'dinosaur bones' thing for example is only an argument against the very limited number of religions which actually state a very recent date as the beginning of the universe, (the Abrahamic ones - Christian, Jews, Muslims). Not against all religions.

David G.> Bravo! You said all that I had wanted to say, only with more eloquence.

Green Baron> What's a 'Huegenot'?

And I don't think the Grail should belong to the Vatican - Catholicism isn't the only christian religion in the world after all. I think the Grail should belong to a museum.
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Monday, July 19, 1999 06:36:50 PM
IP: athe530-b015.otenet.gr

Airwalker> Demona mentioned that her ex-husband is getting re-married to someone new or something? Hmm I wonder if you mean what I think you mean.. Lennex MacDuff is gonna marry JoAnna Walker? I can't wait to find out. ^_^
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 06:28:26 PM
IP: dt041n34.san.rr.com

David G> Sorry, it seemed like Robin had died more then that. Maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part. As for the fan poll, if only we could have convinced the ST:TNG writers to do something similar for Wes.

Green Baron> Welcome back.

Robby> Okay, how about a party to celebrate the return of you, and Cyrway, and Zath, and Green Baron, at almost the same time? And who is that dang song by anyway? All I know is the refrain, so when I get stuck in my head, it just repeats over and over and over.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 06:25:54 PM
IP: ppp-95.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

**Kyryn peers in***

Stephen> You mentioned having a story finished and looking for some readers. The was what the response was about.
BTW, congrats on the job. I'll be out of my current one in about 3 weeks and don't have another lined up yet.

***Kyryn disappears into the depths of editing and work***
Kyryn
Uvalde, TX
Monday, July 19, 1999 06:20:29 PM
IP: 168.37.239.86

VISIT STATION EIGHT! VISIT STATION EIGHT!

Okay, now that that's out of the way, lets try to finish up this game of catch up... Hopefully no interruptions this time!

Discovered something very fun this morning... One of our local spanish stations (We have like, 20, given our location) and they're showing Dragonball Z! Unedited! Coolness! Granted, its in Spanish and there's no sutitles, but hey, I already know the plot and what's being said, its cool just to see the unedited (Re: Saban) version. And the voices are similar to the Japanese ones! Yay!

Warpmind- I understand the answer to your riddle. It's a joke. I got that. I was simply pointing out the actual differences.

Religion- Personally, I don't believe there is a god or any such thing, due to sheer lack of scientific evidence. (The whole dinosaur bones thing is one of my main points...) So by definition, since I don't believe in religion, that makes me an atheist, right? Thing is, I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, because, hey, they could easily be right. And if thats the case, I don't want to tick the big guy off. And you all know what kind of person I am normally, so base an opinion off that. I think Douglas Adams summed it up best when he said in one of the Hitchhiker's Guide books that there is no religion in the universe since all religions say only theirs is right and all others are wrong. And since that can't be the case for more than one religion, there can be none. (The book then goes on to prove there is no such thing as money or living, sentinent beings.) In any case, religion is fine by me, and being an atheist of sorts, I think I prove not all atheists are bad people.

Deuce- You leaving for good? **Chuckles** You're not nearly as gone as you'd like to believe. You'll be back. You still remember the passwords for some of the secure sites. You ain't done yet.

Coyote- Tress MacNielle also did the voice of Babs Bunny, Dot Warner, Coleen the Road Rover, and tons of other Warner stuff. She also played Lucy in Wierd Al's very first album, I have a copy of the video. She quite looks the part.

Bruce Lee- Anyone ever seen the flick where he faced his pupil Chuck Norris? That was awesome.

Spike- Love the Lucy and Graeme sketch. But grr... I wish my sketches looked that good!

James Birdsong- Many months ago when I asked you to tell us when you read a story, I meant for you to tell us what you thought of them, since you're reading for the first time stories that have long since been old to us. Also, I seem to recall you losing your sanity once... You posted as Lord MacBeth...

Airwalker- The answer for questions 1-4 is "Eventually", and the answer to question 5 is "No."

Fave TGS garg ep- Equality, for the resteraunt sequance.
Fave Pendragon ep- Into the woods, for the romance and meeting of Brianna.
Fave Timedancer ep- Trust No Future, cause I wrote it. (Sun and the Serpent coming after that.)
Fave Dark Ages ep- The season two premiere. Hee hee hee...

And now I'm up to where I came in... I'm current now!

Xanathar- We have birthdays in here August 4, 5, 6, and 7? Gee...

SJ- Actually, since that post, I've discovered the WB is gonna be releasing the Pokemon movie theatrically, ala Princess Mononoke, which will also be released this fall in theaters... Hmm, Disney and WB competing with anime on the big screen? Cool!

David G- Runaways was indeed a TGC episode. It was bad because it was so out of character for Brooklyn to be like that, and even worse, it was the episode that SHOULD have been Timedancer.

Warpmind- Yup, I got a nasty garg villain named Vincent, who's popped up in When Clans Collide: Alpha.

Killing Angela to punish Demona- Even as fun as that would be, its too late, we've seen her in the future.

SJ- You are indeed right. Fans VOTED for Jason Todd to die. The real scary part? The vote was 90 something percent in favor of killing him. NO ONE liked Jason Tod, and he deserved to die! Hee hee!

Kitainia- Watterson's official line was that Calvin was becoming too commercial, and that's why he quit. But since outside of the collected volumes, that sketch of the peeing Calvin that he never drew is all I saw. I'm quite sure that's what drove him to stop, since that kind of attitude wasn't at all what Calvin and Hobbes was about. Shame, since Calvin was one of the three best strips around. (Far Side ended at the same time, and For Better or Worse is still good.)

Muppets in Space- As far as I can tell the only reason to go see it is to find out if Gonzo is an alien or not, and the previews kinda give that away don't they? And if he's not an alien, well, its kind of a let down isn't it? Wonder what our rare guest Kermit the Frog thought of the movie. Hey Kermit, you out there?

This weeks ep- Well, at least for a while now I don't have to hold out on TGS related conversations... YAY! But I do have to be careful to keep my trap shut and not give any future info away...

Aaron- Robin has only been killed once. And it was that deserving jerk, Jason Todd.

Also, I'd heard that the Mewtwo Strikes Back film involved Mewtwo trying to clone all the pokemon in the world to end up with more like himself. (He being a twisted mutation of Mew...) I can just imagine it now. Pikachutwo...

And also, my being back alone does not warrant a party. Special events, like Gargs winning the USA countdown or the Gathering merit a party. Or, when we all get really bored... One of the two...

Zath, Green Baron- Welcomes back!

And now, I'm cought up! Yay! Only current stuff for the next year or so probably! Anyhoo, I'm done for now. Laters!




Robby
Monday, July 19, 1999 05:52:46 PM
IP: spider-tp023.proxy.aol.com

Is anyone else as sick of S8 going down as I am?

*searches room and sighs* Deuce isn't coming back, is he? :(

WB to Robby, Zath, Cyrway, and Green Baron!! :)

Stephen> Congratulations on completing the story! If I could find the time, I'd gladly edit it, but the time may not be there... also, glad you found a good job. :)

Doug> Congrats on the medal. :) You should have "Dragon's Game" comments in your mailbox.

Arianna> Congrats on your excellent AP scores! Quite an accomplishment. :)

Coyote> I am pleased to learn of your grandmother's continuing improvement. :)

Glimmer> Please tell me when you've got those Gargs on Ice scans up. This I gotta see. :D

Green Baron is the 4th, Robby the 5th, Arianna the 6th, and Xanathar the 7th... got it. :)

Eyes Wide Shut> Now that I know it stinks, I'll make a point to avoid it even more. Thanks for the warning, Kitainia. :)

I do intend to see Blair Witch Project, Haunting, maybe Deep Blue Sea and VERY maybe Iron Giant this summer.

Stray> Welcome to the room. :)

Jenna> You're welcome. :)

David G.> In addition to the ones the others have mentioned, I recommend trying out the works of Amy K. Cyrway, Dylan P. Blacquiere, Mary "Stormy" Pletsch, Ithica, Kellie Fay, Constance Cochran, Batya "The Toon" Levin, Dracandros, ED, Leva Mevis, Lexington Wyvern, Tara O'Shea, Terese Sinclair, Tim Reynard. There are many other good ones too, but I believe these are among the best of the best.

Robby> What can I say, I like my villains. :)

Personal Progress> I'm slowly assembling a page update, with additions limited in number but large in size. Hopefully, it'll be up this week. :)

Okay, see y'all later!
JEB - [JEB215@aol.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 05:49:45 PM
IP: 98a795b8.ipt.aol.com

**Glimmer stumbles into CR still dizzy from the paint fumes**

I'm disappointed. I didn't see any little green men. Only a couple of polka-dotted elephants.
Now I just have to replace the paneling and the carpet.

And on that note, there won't be a computer in my house until Novemberish. My uncle is coming to visit in October and the room(the one I'm vacating) we had planned on using as an in-home office will instead be a guestroom. Then again, my dear sister is heading out of town(again) and I have to stay here in her house to take care of(raise?) my niece.

Robby> Welcome back

Christine> I would love to send the pics to you except the friggin scanner drive is M.I.A. I'll have it working soon. I hope. How'd the party go? Is the house still standing?

Sorow> Which album is that Loreena McKennitt song off of?

Asrial> For all those who have been speculating about her possible mate- I'm pretty sure I remember reading in one of the TGS eps that she never had a mate. Wasn't that during the first conversation about Asrial between G&E?

Muppets In Space> So Gonzo is an alien? That sorta takes some of the fun out of Muppets. Like the Anamaniacs, it was always fun trying to guess what the heck species he derived from.

Demona debate> Am I the only person who didn't like her as a villiness? I mean the kill, kill, kill mentality goes stale real fast. I like the way the TGS staff is handling her character. Having to face her emotions and worry about the other people in her life gives her more potential as a character. And it makes her more interesting to me. Characters need to develope just as people tend to change. And for who ever was about to write that people don't make 180 degree turns overnight- Demona's circumstances changed overnight when she realized she was a mother. She took longer to change. A heck of a lot longer. In fact she's still going through the process of change.

TGS SPOILERS
Getting kinda mushy, aren't we? That's okay, I like mush. Though I'd like to see Peter Maza go into balistic over protective father mode and threaten to shoot Goliath. :)
And I too, was wondering how Auther went from His Majesty to Sir Auther??
The scenes with the English clan/ Auther and his knights were done well. Emrys dosen't seem too fond of Auther's relationship with Jennifer. That should add some conflict between all three of them.
I also liked the Demona bits. Especially when she relized she couldn't run from the fate she created for herself.
A great set-up for next season. 3 out of 5 stars.
END MILD SPOILERS

Wait- How long do we have to wait for new eps of Dark Ages? I'm already starting to feel Garg withdrawl setting in.

Oh well- guess I'll have to read more fanfic.

Dang I don't have time to finish this post
Gotta run

**Glimmer runs from room**
Glimmer
State: Mental
Monday, July 19, 1999 05:38:47 PM
IP: 112.las-vegas-03-04rs.nv.dial-access.att.net

Steve-- That's great!! Good for you!! I know having a job you hate or love really makes a differance. Before I worked at the job I'm at now, I was miserable with what I was doing. Good luck! And thanks for the feedback for the story! :) Hugs.
jenna
Monday, July 19, 1999 05:14:56 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Greetings all! Glad to see the room is back up.

First off, apologies all round. I've been so busy working the streets in Spokane to find a job (even considered working for my landlord to clean out the laundry rooms in our complex for 3 hours a week at minimum wage), so I haven't had much time to do a lot of the on-line stuff.

But, now the good news! I went in for a follow-up interview at this one restaraunt - called Ron's Drive-In - and I got hired! My training starts tomorrow for two weeks, then, if I pass, I start full time from Sunday till Thursday! YAHOO!

And Andrea, my missus, is very happy! She tells me my self prestige and confidence level should shoot back up, after the fiasco with the She-B***H at my last job.

JENNA - Sorry for taking so long, but as you can see, I had reasons. BTW, I read your story and I loved it! Great twist on Thailog!

KYRYN - My mind slipped, but what was I supposed to show you?

DOUG - I know, Two-of-One still needs to be resolved. Don't worry, I'll be jumping back in to settle things.

COYOTE - Ugh, so when am I going to get to see my characters in action? Team Eagle, is it? BTW, I need a physical descript of Rosanna (in Human and Garg forms)... I have an idea for her to show up in a future fic of mine, and I need your help.

DAVID G - Fanfics, huh? Best you try Christi Hayden's, then Dylan P. Blacquerie's, and Christine Morgans. Those are my top 3...

MANDI - ??? Recommending my fics? Are you a closet fan of mine? :) j/k! :)

NEW EP - Going to go read it now. Will have more to say later!

And that's all from me! Maintain and Check Six!
Stephen "Coldstone" Sobotka, Jr. - [scififangargoyle@yahoo.com]
Spokane, WA, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 05:03:58 PM
IP: m44.ieway.com

RP WARNING!!!
**Crown Point
Alan Dershowitz is waiting for his nemesis Rev. Attila, when he hears a shot five feet away.
"Now, I see you evil right-wing gun loving kitty!"
"You see me, but look behind you."
"You can't fool me.....yeeoww, rosebud!"
The Green Baron suddenly appears in his green suit and a claymore in Dershowitz's back.. Then he looks at the TGS screen and waves**
PAUSE RP!!

Hello all. I am still alive. I have just been busy with one course this session, but there are three weeks left. That is why I have been absent for so long.

Starsinger and Coyote> Many hugs to you two.

Pistoff> I do have a temproary job with Loyola's bookstore in August, but alas I don't know if it will be pernmanent.

Aaron> There is something odd in the Kennedy Clan. It seems all the good ones are taken young, like Jack, Bobby, Jack Jr. and still Ted is still alive and he has corrupted Bobby's poor kids, though two of them have died. I think JFK Jr's death was more of a coincidence though. Sadly, he was the only one of that awful family I liked.

Holy Grail> I would say it belongs under lock and key in the Vatican, and it would make a really sweet relic for any church.

Kitainia> I odn't see Brendan and Margot as Baptists. they strike me as country clubbers from the Northeast. My bet is they're Episcopalian, which can be a definite country club faith, though more so in the South, but still true up in the North.

Todd> Greg told me at G98 that Matt Bluestone was Jewish, though he aslo stated that Matt was not very observant.

Airwalker> I wrote an essay about Reynard implying that he was Catholic, though Greg later told me Reynard was a Huegenot. I guess I still find it easier to see Reynard as a Catholic, though it has a lot to do with my New Orleans upbringing, and Fox's rebelliousness could definitely be an after-effect of Catholic school :)

Other religions for characters> Dr. Sevarius worships himself. So does Oberon. Fang could be a Jehova's Witness, or he might reveal the Labyrinthe to the Witnesses just to make Talon mad :)

RESUME RP!!!
**Amidst the wreckage in another part of teh battle, OJ arises from his fall, badly cut-up, but his body begins to heal as the wounds close and in five minutes he is restored to full health. Once revived, OJ sees anopther Borg ship arriving, so he plants a tee on the ground. Then he rips out Fred Goldman's eye and places it on the tee. He then pulls out a nine iron and yells four as he hits the eye at the ship causing the ship to explode upon impact,, and everyone watches to see the explosion.**
END RP for now
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
New Orleans, Louisiana
Monday, July 19, 1999 04:52:10 PM
IP: 141.164.133.110

Doh! If I had hung around for another half hour last night (this morning?) I could have made top ten. Oh well, maybe next time. I still don't have anything useful to contribute to the room, so I'll just repeat last night's post because I don't think anyone saw it. **sigh** I waited and waited for the room to clear and eventually decided it wasn't going to, so I posted. Then, the room promptly cleared...

*****EVERYTHING AFTER THIS IS JUST A REPEAT OF LAST NIGHT, FEEL FREE TO SKIP IT IF YOU SAW THE FIRST ONE*****

I'M BAAAAAACK! **smacks DC for having the room down for the entire first day of my being near a computer in 3 weeks.** I haven't had time to catch up on
the room yet, but I hope to do that in the next day or so. In the meantime, I'd just like to say that I hope everyone had fun at the gathering and if anyone has any
pictures from it scanned, I'd really like to see them. Also, I'd really appreciate it if anyone felt like giving me a synopsis of world events for the last 3 weeks (doing it
by e-mail is fine if no one wants to clutter the room, but I'm serious about this. When I get out of touch, I get really out of touch and my local paper isn’t up to the
task of bringing me back. My family just shrugs and says "nothing happened," which I find hard to believe). Thanks all. I guess that’s it for the moment. I’ll be back
when I’ve had some sleep and have something to add to the conversations.
Zath - [zath@rocketmail.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 04:47:37 PM
IP: nsz-09.viptx.net

Hi folks. I'm back. First of all, thanks for everyone who has sent me reading list suggestions. I'm still wading through them to decide where to start.

Second, Aaron, Robin has only ever died once in the 'official' DC timeline. Various alternate reality Robins have died, but only one mainstream Robin.

Somebody else, and I can't remember who, asked how he died. This was the Robin nobody liked. He was more reckless than Dick Grayson, with less charm. I can't even remember his name right now. The way he died was by being stupid. The Joker caught him, and pretty much beat him to death. The only thing vaugely interesting about it was that DC was using a phone poll to let readers vote on whether to kill him or not. The people spoke. After his death, things got a bit interesting, with Batman becoming progressivly less cautious, until Tim Drake figured out his secret identity and became the new Robin (and my personal favorite).

And now, more words about Demona:
It would be pretty stupid to kill off all the other gargoyles on earth just to get at Demona. If you all want, I can come up with a counter argument that's equally ridiculous, instead of being reasonable. Here's the point I'm trying to reach, laid out in logical steps:
(a) Demona's character is changing. She's turning away from her past, and beginning to tolerate humanity. However, she hasn't really repented for the past. She's just ignoring it. If you think that's OK, then the rest of this argument doesn't matter. You can stop reading.

(b) For Demona to REALLY become a "good guy," she needs to realize not just that trying to destroy humanity was contrary to her true goals, but that it was WRONG. If you don't care whether or not that ever happens, then the rest of this argument doesn't matter...

(c) Demona is not likely to come to that understanding on her own. She either needs another character to show it to her, or she needs to have some experience that illustrates how she was wrong, or both. That's what I think punishing her for the past would be good for. I don't think a punative strike from some outside agency is the way to go. I'm looking for a twist of fate where Demona reaps the 900 years worth of whirlwinds she has sown.

(d) Not just any punishment will work. We've already discussed the problems with punishing an immortal person. Furthermore, for the punishment to work as a life changing event, it needs to be a direct result of Demona's past. For example, if Angela died as a victim of the someone with a vendeta against Demona, then Demona might see that the things she did in the past hadn't gone away just because she wasn't doing them anymore.

***SPOILER WARNING***
Now, in the current story, Demona is being punished in a way that meets my earlier criteria, and it's kind of working. Goliath's engagement to Elisa is sort of the last bridge being burned. If Demona comes out of this experience realizing that she was the one who made the decisions that alienated her from Goliath, then she'll grow.
***END SPOILER WARNING***

The other thing I want to try to explain is a difference in points of view. I think, from reading the various posts, that most of Demona's defenders (the anti-punishment people) are speaking from their feelings about Demona, as if she was a person they liked. I share the same feelings. Demona is my top, absolute, total favorite character in the series.

However, I am part of the 'pro-punishment' side of the argument. That's because I'm thinking like a writer. The comments I make about the direction of the series are based on my desire to see a dramatic and interesting story, which essentially means I have to suggest doing bad things to the main characters. The thing that makes admirable characters admirable is that they overcome adversity. If the writers never give them any adversity, they might be nice people, and we might even like them, but they can't really be heroes as befits the main characters of an adventure story.

If I were a character in the Gargoyles universe, and if I knew Demona, I would not wish this pain on her for anything in the world. (Ignoring a lot of context stuff, of course. If I lived there, I wouldn't know her the way I do now) Since I'm a reader, outside the universe, I want her to face bad things, but I want her to overcome them.

Finally, just to be clear, I don't really think killing Angela would be a good idea right now. Back during the Quarrymen conflict, or during the Unseelie war, maybe. At some point in the future, if the situation was favorible, possibly. Right now, it would be very contrived, and I probably wouldn't like it.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 04:44:11 PM
IP: 198.215.20.3

Demona-Punishment isn't necessary, I've already said this. I also know its not a moral issue, and that Demona isn't really getting away with anything. She has her own guilt, and even if she didn't, people don't have to be punished for something for everything to be right.

Kyryn-I never intended to bring in any battles. Yeesh, don't worry.

Airwalker-The focus of GARGOYLES and THE GARGOYLES SAGA has nothing to do with couples and such. The focus is about aspects of life with life itself at the core. At least you didn't generalize, though.
As for fumbling about, concerning Goliath, and Elisa, neither one of them are the type to doubt their feelings, or such. I'm not sure, but I think something was mentioned about its importance. Its not that important to the whole GARGOYLES Reality.
The 'slowness' beforehand was because there was really nothing romantic necessary to be brought out, and when it was, it was handled according to character.

Comments on THE GARGOYLES SAGA Season 2 Finale: SEEDS OF CHANGE:

Great Episode.
The supposed 'search mission' didn't get as much attention as people seemed to guess it would be for. I wasn't exactly hoping one way or the other, and I figured what could happen was one way or another.
There could be flashbacks, too.
The one about the Halloween Party proved this.
8 Pictures, as opposed to the 7 Pictures, I believe, of before. Well, the max from 4 Episodes ago. Now I believe, if I counted right, its been topped.
Some of the Dracon-Taeko Scenes had me cracking up. Not the Lotus Pub Scene only, but their comments in their individual scenes, then the Lotus Pub Scene, or whatever its called, and parts after, I believe, if there were any.
I forget.
Looks like the Morrigan's up to something.
I just had to mention that.
Although its an obvious.
Great Finale, all, in all.

Doug and Kitainia-I kept forgetting to post this. About XENOGEARS: RESTORED PIECES, I see.

"We're not their possessions!!"-Krelian
XENOGEARS
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Monday, July 19, 1999 04:33:53 PM
IP: 4.morristown-06-07rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

***COMMENTS FOR ‘SEEDS OF CHANGE’ – INCLUDES SPOILERS***

*sigh* Stories which muddle through a boiling pot of plots without dwelling long enough on them to make them really come to life rarely gains my interest. Such is the case here. So much here seems like a half-hearted attempt at a range of stories rather than a whole-hearted attempt at one.

Matt’s mysterious message (that sounds good, doesn’t it? :)) – it’s a curious plot; what he gets to do in his jury duty will be telling. No doubt the Illuminati will play a hand. A shame that it was squeezed on (awkwardly) to stretch the scenes out.

Pendragon series – Finally, a Pendragon story! Hooray! A bunch of new and fairly bland sounding characters – nooo! But with a cool-sounding purpose and an invitation to a great range of delightful Pendragon stories, so hooray again. Why was so much padding put into these scenes? A lot of the Rory sections seemed teeth-grittingly tedious and aimless…

Demona – Ho-hum. I was hoping that we’d see an expansion of some of the wounds re-opened in the previous episode, instead we got another sickeningly-sweet Demona and Angela tale.

Elisa & Goliath – ‘Yes’?! Just like that?! You’ve got to be kidding. Elisa and Goliath take 65 episodes to finally kiss and then… 70-odd episodes later, they’re planning marriage?! Heck, how much Goliath and Elisa stuff have we seen? Very little, only one episode in this season (NOCTURNE) springs to mind as having really taken the time to get nitty-gritty and look closely. A few others like LETHE made some attempt. Sorry guys, but this is a dreadfully handled plot, and I sincerely hope that this will be rectified in the next season.

The Yakuza – These guys bore me to tears, so their inclusion hardly inspired me to overlook the flaws above. At least we got some nice Dracon stuff.

So overall? A great disappointment really. The plot was weak and unfocused, the character portrayal slack for almost everybody and the Pendragon plot undernourished.

Still, the inclusion of Pendragon in any shape or form must be encouraged greatly, and the pictures were absolutely superb. But this Elisa/Goliath thing has really got me quite depressed. The TGS project should (as I have seen it) have taken the plots from the original series and developed them further, and drawn in new material to develop the Gargoyles universe. It succeeded on number two, but from the handling of Elisa/Goliath and Demona/Angela has slipped up quite dramatically on the second.

And was it just me, or did the ending seem rather forced? Like, the writer knew the very last bit, or the way it should go, but was unsure about the path to get there making it seem clumsy. Anyway, I’d give this episode a 4/10. A very weak ending, I’m sorry to say.

PS. You don’t have to give the English people entirely Anglo-Saxon names. The lack of people of Indian or other Asian origins is quite striking and misguided.

***END SPOILERS/COMMENTS***
Ed
Monday, July 19, 1999 04:25:45 PM
IP: p-30-virgin1.tch.virgin.net

Aaron: About the JFK jr. case: I doubt it's just you, just look at the other former members of the Kennedy clan, what has been defined as "The US equivalient to a Royal House". (And here I am, stuck in the Middle of Nowhere in Norway, and even I know that.)

Robby: You didn't get what I said about the difference between Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan? (Or did I forget? Ach, I must be getting old... Alzheimer Light at age 19...)
The difference is that Bruce Lee is dead, and Jackie Chan is still kicking... pardon the pun.
Actually, Jackie Chan is not only crazier, he's a, pardon my french, *Goddamn Shitload Crazier*! And, he's a lot more amusing to watch, with usually better plots and a lot of really rotten humor. Ever seen Rumble in the Bronx? (Guess my first thought upon seeing that title?)

Well, gotta scoot, don't wanna get entangled in one of these "What's right, what's wrong, what's likely to get you killed" debates. Until later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Monday, July 19, 1999 03:12:13 PM
IP: mp-217-228-48.daxnet.no

Hmm. Room seems to be working now... Good. Sorry I wasn't able to wipe it last night on time, but it wasn't my fault! The rooms were acting funky!

Oh well... I'm gonna try to cover last week's CR now, and catch up to where we are now!

Wilek- In Power Puff Girls, HIM is like, apparently their ultimate villain. His name is so evil and despicable, they can't say it, and so only call him HIM. (Of course, he has a rather female wardrobe but...)

Coyote- Hope your grandmother feels better man.

Oh yeah, enjoyed the WCC story. Vincent seems just about in character for nastiness factor.

Wilek again- Yes, I did warn you people I'd be leaving. In fact, I warned you like 4 days in advance, and in every post up until I left, and had mentioned it as far as a month before that. I said I'd be going to San Angelo for a week to a week and a half to visit my cousin. (Ended up being two, but still...) I hadn't intended to be gone two weeks, but oh well... Rather miffed that I upset Heather so much by being gone that long... Still, there's little to worry about, I likely won't be going anywhere again until next summer...

Aaron- That 500 miles song DOES get stuck in one's head...

Difference between Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan- Bruce Lee is the greatest there ever was or ever will be. He freakin' TRAINED Chuck Norris, and Norris says he'll never be at all close to Lee, though he's probably a match for Chan. Lee and Chan do look similar, but Bruce was far better. (Though Chan is crazier, he does all his own stunts)...

Jeb- Gee, listed enough villains don't ya think? But I agree with most of those choices.

Aaron and Steve- What movie are you refferring to?

Starsinger- Well wishes to your mum.

Pistoff- Like the creativity demon of Demona meeting a human who doesn't give a hoot about her being a gargoyle...

Wilek- The Ninja Turtles lives in New York! So do Daredevil and Spiderman! I think the wierd stuff happens in New York because there's so many landmarks to mess with by damaging or using as simple background. The Brooklyn Bridge and the statue of liberty for instance.

Iron Giant- The odd thing is, the theatre trailer made me want to see this, and the TV trailers make me not want to. Wierd...

Hmm... Gotta get off the computer for a moment. **Sigh** I'll finish this later.
Robby
Monday, July 19, 1999 02:52:55 PM
IP: spider-wb014.proxy.aol.com

Aaron-- let me talk to my webmaster/hubby Mike- he does all the stuff for my page. Yes, I'm spoiled! :)
Jenna
Monday, July 19, 1999 02:47:00 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Jenna> I have no page. If you'd put me up, I'd be grateful. I was also planning to post them to the archives.

Cyrway> If Nox is the ultimate personification of Chaos, and Martha is the ultimate personification of (obnoxious) order.... shudder.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 02:31:41 PM
IP: ppp-103.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

*Pulls a Phantom of the Mosh Pit gag.* Oh, and one more thing!

Just reading last week's posts...

Demona: Two words: Habeas Corpus. Of course, just when you think she's reformed at the end of HC's immediate sequel, Paternity by Stormy, Lilith's biological father returns to the scene. Eight years later...Clone Wars...but yeah, as of Habeas (actually, as Love and War), Demmie gives up her vendetta with the humans...thank you Cal...though I don't read much of TGS (it screws up my own storyline...I read some Timedancer and, well...Graeme and Ariana ended up as Tatewaki and Kodachi Kuno in our Ranma 1/2 crossover/spoof.) I do like the fact that Demmie's somewhat reforming...though not too quickly. And Angela's death shouldn't be an option... ;P

Killing Main Characters: I must be the champion of that...it's mostly because of my extensive timelines, though...as long as it was tastefully (like how I felt I did with Brooklyn in No Mouth), rather than pointlessly (like Archie Comics did with the Mighty Mutanimals).

Good vs. Evil: What's that? I only know Law, Balance, and Chaos. Law isn't always good, and Chaos isn't necessarily bad, as will be proven by one of my new characters, Cavalier. (Hint on who she is, she's a first cousin of Caligo, her father's Raphael, her mother's Forsaken (ie, none of the Forces (law, balance, and chaos) will claim her), and she knows nothing about the Elder Ones, but she knows which twin (Cal and Zanthe) is truly insane.) Good and Evil is a morality question. Let's just say Luc's not the perfect angel, and Zanthe's not the bitch we all know and hate.

Okay, I will leave you with one little thing...

The Soothsayer is the Jusenkyo Guide in the spoof.
"Oh, too bad, Nox. You fall into Spring of Drowned Martha Stewart..."
"Oh, too bad, Artemis, you fall into Spring of Drowned Explorer...two weeks ago I drove my Ford Explorer into empty spring..."

*PTOOFF!!*



Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 02:12:19 PM
IP: ddialup-w-201.mint.net

Aaron-- :) Cool! Can't wait to read them. Do you have a page or anywhere your going to post them or put them in the archives? I'm thinking a bout seeing if I can have a links page for my website and a place for other people's stories. Let me know.
Jenna
Monday, July 19, 1999 02:08:42 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Hey Jenna. Yes, I'm still working on my fics. I've got something like four more scenes to write, two of them fight sequences. I'm hoping to be done sometime before the end of August, but then, I hoped to be done before G99 too.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 02:03:37 PM
IP: ppp-74.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Christine-- I sent you an em about a concern I have. Please respond. Thanks. :)
Jenna
Monday, July 19, 1999 01:46:41 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Oh, and one more thing...Habeas Corpus, which was supposed to come out in Febuary, is almost done. The first Dark Triumvirate story should be coming out soon after (the Big Secret of that fic...everyone knows it except for Luc, and it directly concerns him...hee hee hee), and a Herbie the Love Bug/Outklaws crossover is ITP...I'm right now MiSTing Dylan's Shadowplay series.

As for WCC...I personally can't wait for Team Golf...when you have a pacifist sorceror and his pyromaniac girlfriend n that team, there's bound to be quite a bit of trouble.

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 01:38:27 PM
IP: ddialup-w-201.mint.net

Aaron--hey there! When I first heard of JFK JR--my mind said the same thing.
Weren't you going to starting writing some fanfics--what is the current status of them? I hope to have part 2 of my story out in August--am working like a dog to keep my self appointed deadline.

About Demona's punishment--alot of her suffering comes from ther own actions--you reap what you sow afterall.

Shantell--will be dropping you an em.:)

That' s really all here. Laters!
Jenna
Monday, July 19, 1999 01:36:52 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Cyrway> You're back too! Cool. And I stand corrected on Blitz. Mea culpa.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 01:33:01 PM
IP: ppp-74.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Aaron> Oh, and Blitz isn't an antique collector. He's a junk collector. He wanted the Grail because he wanted to wow his pilot buddies with his collection of beer steins. (Yes, the guy who sent everyone back home was Blitz in another form...he suffers from an acute case of Soothsayer Syndrome). ;)

Coyote> Go check your email.

*ptooff!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 01:28:42 PM
IP: ddialup-w-201.mint.net

Okay, folks, I'm back in black (for the meantime.)

Thus far, I managed to wow a couple of Internet services who are working for HTML programmer/Web designer/graphic artist. Good thing. Hee hee hee...one place was totally flabberghasted that I had programmed most of the Temple of Delphi in hardcode.

Well, in other news, I reposted The Sword due to the fact the best part of the story was cut off by an evil Macintosh.

Okay, gotta split. BBL!

*PTOOFF!!*
Cyrway - [blkblade@excite.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 01:24:26 PM
IP: ddialup-w-201.mint.net

Aaron wanders in, trying to juggle croquet balls. Since Aaron has only a little more coordination then Vinnie, they go awry, and land on DC. Oh well.

Robby's back!!!!!! This calls for a party.

Had an okay weekend. Saw muppets from space. It was okay, but not any Muppet Treasure Island, or Christmas Carol.

Pistoff> Well the good news is, the office finally bought a scanner, so I'll try to scan Abe and e-mail him to you.

Robby> Welcome back! (Duh) And speaking of Mewtwo Strikes Back, somebody gave me a plot summary (Potential spoilers, don't read if you don't wanna know) that said Mewtwo was trying to liberate his fellow pokemon by turning all the pokemon trainers to stone. It's COS, pokemon version.

Coyote> Get Coop into the gargs universe, eh? I'd like to see that, although I gotta ask if Coop is still possessed by Bob. Also, I'd love to see Albert Rosenthal (Miguel Ferrar) and his reaction to the gargoyles.

SJ> An Ennis/Dillan Punisher? Cool! Maybe I'll start picking up the book again.

Patrick><<so I put out the question, should Xena still be
punished, too?>> Hehheh. Punished. Hehhehhehheh.

Amy Da Tigger> Hyena/Coldsteel? LMAO. :)

David G> I dunno, I don't think killing Robin really has that much dramatic impact. I mean, it's only been done what, four or five times?

JFK Jr. Is it me, or is this another suspicious death in the Kennedy family?

The Grail> Arther can't find the grail because it's no longer on Earth. It was picked up by an interstellar antique collecter after being used to defeat the Devourer by the Familae Caligorum. ;)

Well, I've wasted enough of y'all's time. Later.

Aaron wanders away again.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 01:02:48 PM
IP: ppp-74.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

New on my site:
~~~ Two new pics in the Gallery, a "Lead Me Not ..." unicorn by Noel and a scene from "A Gargoyles Christmas Special" by Amy da Tigger.
~~~ List of Gargoyles merchandise still available for sale.

Demona and punishment > funny, I've been getting letters lately asking me to lay off, let the poor creature have a happy ending for a change! I must be being too mean to her ... and I'm still only getting warmed up!

Fanfic > remember, fair warning to anybody who might be considering starting to read mine, a good 1/2 of them are naughty, ranging from sweet to downright evil ...

Fanfic Progress > if all goes well tonight, I will have a new story, "The Guardians: Alchemist," finished and ready to post in the next few days. This is the first official "Guardians" spin-off, set twenty-some years in the future when Alexander, Amber, Orpheus Bluestone, etc. are grown up.

Kyryn > Maleficent has always been one of my faves, as the collection now gracing the mantle can demonstrate ; )

Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 12:42:59 PM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

David G. > Read the Athenaverse stories by the four writers Ryan Stout, Scott Mercure, Jewel Faulkner and Scott Iscow. The collaboration of them four is my favourite fanfic universe. Also read the Merlin Missy and Nancy Brown stories - in their majority they are excellent! After that try out Christine Morgan perhaps and Christi Smith Hayden.

Todd> <<Why stop there? An even more ambitious punishment for Demona of that nature would be to have the entire gargoyle race (other than Demona) get wiped out utterly, to such an extent that there isn't even any genetic material left for the purposes of making clones.>>

Well, there has been an excellent fanfic revolving a similar idea: "I'm sorry". But the reason something like that shouldn't happen is because by killing every gargoyle character off, we would be destroying hundreds of possible story possibilities - everything after that could only involve Demona and nobody else. There are some cases though, where a character is worth more dead than alive. If there was nothing better for Angela to do, killing her so as to hurt Demona and produce some good drama and new story possibilities (and let's not forget:exploring the reactions of the other gargoyles as well would also be very interesting) could be the better choice.

The reason I want Demona to be punished is because I feel her reformation has been too easy and painless for her. If anything I'd expect it should be *more* painful than her original descent into evil - after all getting rid of a drug addiction for example is far more difficult than getting addicted in the first place. By being reformed Demona gained a lot: but what did she pay for it?
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Monday, July 19, 1999 12:30:13 PM
IP: athe530-e016.otenet.gr

Hi, guys, just checking in for a quick reply before returning to Tristram and the dismemberment of Diablo, Lord of Terror.

Kyryn: Be my guest. After all, such notices are meant to be of preventive nature, not to be taken lightly. But if I may be so bold, please be at all times ready to back your words with physical action, lest people refuse to believe your warnings.

Until later, guys.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Monday, July 19, 1999 12:07:40 PM
IP: mp-217-240-2.daxnet.no

Coyote>Cool pic!
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Monday, July 19, 1999 11:13:28 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Dont punish Demona!!!
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Monday, July 19, 1999 11:10:58 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

***Kyryn sneaks in***

***Warning DC Death***

Kyryn walks up to DC with one hand on her katana. She glares at him. There's a slight click, and her blade moves in a blur. DC stands for a moment and then falls in a pile of little pieces. She turns away, wipes the blood off her blade and begins to post.

***END DC Death***

That was for crashing the CRs twice in the past week. Luckily I had my early replies saved when things went offline Thursday.

Coyote><<Oh, and "Team Charlie" I am going to *try* to have posted by August 26th, to commemorate a major event in my universe ... 8/26/99 is Rosanna's date of birth.>> LOL My birthday is 8/26 (although I won't give the year). I love it. Especially since Kyryn is on Team Charlie. I will thank you for the unintentional birthday present in advance (even if you don't make the date), my friend.

Jackal> Deuce is leaving for his own reasons, not just what happened and not because of any 'higher ups'. I can't say more because I promised him as a friend that I wouldn't.

Muppets in Space!>Yes! I'm planning on seeing this. I'm a huge muppets fan.

Steve> Hey, Jackie Chan does a pretty good job. And I loved Snipes moves in Blade.

Pistoff> No offense meant, but your post suddenly reminded me of the scene in Toy Story with the little aliens in the machine. "It is-- The Claw! The Claw chooses!" *blink* my brain is really fried right now.

Skippy> Well, a lot would depend on where they were located and how long they had been there. If they were there from before the colonies were founded and interacted with any indian tribes, they would probably side with whoever the indian tribe decided to go with. They might be against both the colonials and the British.

Paul>Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Btw, please do not bring any overall fights or things that threaten the CR with destruction into the room. Those of us who were here in the early days of the room agreed long ago that any RP type fights (killing DC, Sli Sludge, etc. doesn't count) are to be kept out of the room. (Not being nasty or anything, just letting you know.) :)

Starsinger> I seem to remember that Green Baron said a while back that his internet access time was being severely limited over the summer.

JEB><<(BTW, anyone else think the government agent in the trailer looks a LOT like Matt Bluestone?)>> LOL - I thought so too.

Stephen> Send it along. I won't guarantee when I'll get to it (you know the reasons why), but I'll be glad to take a look when I have time.

Warpmind><<"WARNING: The librarian present knows more about causing severe, painful injuries than about mending them. Please be quiet, this is, after all, a Library.")>> LOL - Do you mind if I borrow that for some of the future library jobs I may have?

Entity><<I keep wanting to say "I'll keep you in my prayers"... wish there was an athiest alternative.>> How about: "I'll keep you in my thoughts"? This works for me sometimes if someone is sensitive about religious issues. :)

Arianna> Congrats on the scores! I didn't manage better than a three on anything I took.

Christine> Maleficent - Now there was a villainess!

Stray> Welcome!



Later All!

***Kyryn sneaks out***

Kyryn
Uvalde, TX
Monday, July 19, 1999 11:08:21 AM
IP: 168.37.239.86

**enters the room, switching out the candles.**

Quickie right now, longer one later. **glares at DC** My hand and your throat need to have a conference.

Status: Last I had heard, my grandmother was "stable." That could mean a lot of things, so right now I have no real idea of her condition. :(

Seeds of Change: Excellent, guys!

David G. (right?): Click my name for fics that derive *from* TGS.

**steps out of the room after kicking DC's butt on his way out.**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Monday, July 19, 1999 11:04:10 AM
IP: modem57.i-is.com

David--if your looking for fanfics to read--click here! :)

Exin--sent you an em :)
Jenna - [theamazingjenna@hotmail.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 10:59:16 AM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

A little thought inspired by the earlier comments about punishing Demona by having Angela get killed.

Why stop there? An even more ambitious punishment for Demona of that nature would be to have the entire gargoyle race (other than Demona) get wiped out utterly, to such an extent that there isn't even any genetic material left for the purposes of making clones. Demona would then be forever doomed to be the last of her kind, and all alone. Even if she could wipe out humanity after that, what would be the point in it; with no gargoyles other than herself left, the extinction of humanity would no longer serve any practical purpose. (There'd still be the revenge angle, which Demona could definitely go for, but it wouldn't be the same).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 19, 1999 10:20:30 AM
IP: sys.slpl.lib.mo.us

Skippy> Trust me when I say this: Lake Placid was predictable, but it wasn't as bad as Anaconda. The previews haven't shown what happens to the scuba diver yet, have they?

David> Fic writers? Christine Morgan, Christi Smith Hayden, Selanit, Stephen Sobotka, Jewel Faulkner, Merlin Missy, Nancy Brown (Read "Firstborn!"), geez, I can't name them all. Doug's fanfics are really good, but you have to start at the beginning of the series or you'll be a little lost as to what's going on. Who else? Skydancer, A Fan, Aaron Ziegler... oh forget it, I can't name them all. There's a couple of good stories by somebody named Amanda Ohlin, too *cough cough* :)
Mandolin
Monday, July 19, 1999 10:20:24 AM
IP: ch164-10.apgea.army.mil

Jenna>Hey!How are ya? ...why dont you try to Email me? ,,i'm a good listener ... :):
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Alternate add:exin@post.cz
Monday, July 19, 1999 10:13:38 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Hi folks. I couldn't connect to the CR at all from my last post till this morning, and I haven't read the parts of last week that happened after I left, so if I miss anybody's comments, I'm not ignoring you, I just didn't see them.

Here's what's going on:

***SPOILERS FOR SEEDS OF CHANGE***
I found the episode on the Text site while I was trying to get into the CR. Loved it. Way to keep people interested, more cliffhangers than an episode of Lupin III. The art was beautiful, and well chosen.

There was Pendragon stuff, and it looks like Arthur is running into the Illuminati, or a similar force. I do sort of wonder how Arthur got downgraded to Sir Arthur, but oh well...

Demona's scenes were good, too. I loved the way she was forced to see the finality of her past decisions, and the much anticipated PIT Masquerade Ball was a nice touch.

Also, everybody who guessed a clan in China, congratulations.

I only have one real complaint, and it's almost a Gargoyles tradition. A revolver is a pistol that lines bullets (usually 6) up in a rotating cylinder, bringing each bullet into line with the hammer and the barrel. An automatic pistol uses a spring loaded clip to gradually push bullets into the firing chamber. As each bullet is ejected, a new bullet is pushed into the chamber. You can't check the clip on a service revolver. There's no clip to check.

However, Elisa's refusal to recognize that fact is starting to grow on me, so I won't complain too much.
***END SPOILERS***

Fanfic plug> I got Freelance 2 to download just fine this morning. It must be some glitch in my browser at home. All Pendragon fans be aware, this one takes place in Britain, and features minor Pendragon characters. Episode 3 might, as well.

Other people's Fanfics> Since The season is ending, I'm getting ready to delve into the fanfic arcive. (It seems only fair). I've already read the first 15 episodes of G2K (And liked them). I haven't read more than one or two stories by anybody else yet. I've been kind of browsing. Anybody have any recomendations?

I guess that will pretty much do it for now. I'll probably be back later.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Monday, July 19, 1999 10:06:11 AM
IP: 198.215.20.3

I wanted to post this reply yesterday, but the room was down, so I'll do it now:

TALEWEAVER - You wrote: [On the long view, I like how things turn up in Requiem. There is a thriving gargoyle culture and she excluded from it. This dragon has an eye for irony. That after all these centuries gargoyles are accepted and prospering and she had nothing to do with it.]

I had nothing against much of REQUIEM. In fact it's my favorite episode of Season 1 TIMEDANCER. But I never really could understand that uniform fear and hate of Demona that was shown in the 2168 scene. Not all Gargoyles are friendly with humanity. I would expect the major clans - Ishimura, London, Avalon - to take a sort of shocked view of Demona that we saw but we can't forget about New Olympus either. The Gargoyles there have as much love for humanity as Demona does and I think that there she might turn into sort of a folk hero, you know, the Gargoyle who survived the centuries, who was cursed to a human form in daylight, the great enemy of humanity. And there must be a few other clan here and there that would take the same New Olympian view. I hated that uniform approach that everyone except her family and someone who hadn't heard of her were the only one's to want to deal with her.

I also think that the relations between Humans and Gargoyles have been moving too fast and that by 2158 and so on, it seems much too friendly - I mean humans don't get along with each other and we've been around each other since the beginning, so why is it that all of a sudden we should start to get along so well with a Non-human race in such a short period of time? I think that while what we have seen of the TGS future looks good, it's way too good. Just as I'm sure that Demona wouldn't be uniformily rejected by everyone, I'm sure that relations between humanity and Gargoyles wouldn't be as great as they were shown. (In fact, if there really was a good reason for Gargoyles to look weird at Demona, it's because she's an immortal and turns into a human in daylight. I could understand the attitude among many "There goes the freak who doesn't turn to stone and can't die" but just because she was the "bane of humanity in the flesh" to use her own words, doesn't mean that she would be rejected by everyone.)

And anyway that rejection doesn't really matter because she'll just outlive those who rejected her and in a century or two eventually become excepted by the generation who either doesn't remember her or doesn't really believe the stories about her.


**COMMENTS ON CURRENT TGS EPISODE**

It's the season finale and praise the lord, we've actually gotten to see a PENDRAGON story! I'm extremely happy about that. And it has the makings of a great tale. Arthur is a wanted man, framed for a crime he didn't commit, and is forced to go on the run while at the same time looking for the people who framed him. I have to admit that I like the supporting cast of PENDRAGON much more than I do the main character but still the story just has so much potential if done right. It could stretch out for month's and it could be anyone - Unseelie survivors, Illuminati, Morgana, or someone else entirely. Even with all the Gargoyles and Magic at his command, Arthur is still going to have a really hard time which usually makes for a great story. I do have to hope though that he finds a new place to live. Staying with the clan is dangerous since if he is discovered there, it means compromising the security of the Gargoyles.

QUESTION - Wasn't Merlin going to take that job as Alex's nanny? I mean even with Puck still alive, he's a busy assistant and can't devote every waking moment to being with Alex. It would have made perfect sense for Merlin to move to New York, thus giving him a new start and giving Alex a trustworthy nanny with magical abilities.

Goliath and Elisa - My major complaint is that they have been moving way too fast. It took them 65 episodes just to acknowledge that they have some sort of feeling and for them to get a single not even one second kiss. Now within three years, they are ready to commit to each other? That should have just taken much much longer than it has. They should be arguing, having doubts, considering to break up, the whole range of emotions. Instead they agree to get married. What about Elisa's desire for a normal life? What about the fact that she didn't really want all that weirdness in her life and that she might one day want to have children? It would have been more interesting to see them scramble around in doubt and indecision for a while, not really knowing what to do, and then slowly coming to realize that they have to go with their feelings, that this would be the right way. I know that Gargoyles fans especially are hopeless romantics and that we all want to see everyone reach this happy stage with everyone pairing off and the whole world situation becoming happy, but that doesn't always happen and even when it does, it takes lots and lots of time. It just seems to be moving way too fast. To much speed means that there is a bit of loss of realism which should never be forgotten. Except for the fact Gargoyles are running around, and magic is in the air, we should never forget that the Gargoyles Universe is the same as ours. Besides if everyone gets married and settles down happily then what conflict will be in the stories?

(I would love to see some of the characters just not get along with each other from time to time. Parents fight with children so it's not too much to ask that Angela and Demona, and Angela and Goliath don't always get along, couples fight so it's not too much to ask that GOliath and Elisa, Broadway and Angela, and Brooklyn and Sata occasionally fight with each other.)

The Yakuza Plot - This one isn't even done by a long shot. Tommy will be out of prision soon enough and then we'll really get to see a turf war. I do wonder though, what happened to Brohde? He could have been a great wild card to throw into a Dracon/Yakuza war. Also Vince's return to Dracon was realistic. I'm shocked that Tony would be so willing to throw away an opportunity like Vince. I mean imagine if Dracon integrated some of the Halflings into his operation. They are easy to control with some iron and they have power that could be useful to his organisation. Imagine staging a hit against the Yakuza. A halfling can go in looking unarmed but then just launch a magical attack taking out most of the enemy. It would just be bad business to not do anything about Vince. (On the other hand, not too many of the halflings should be accepted. A few and the rest should be eliminated by Dracon to make sure that he has a monopoly and that there will be no external threats from them later on.)

Demona - Her reaction to Angela's announcement about Goliath and Elisa makes sense. I can see her as being in such a state of shock that she is completely unable to even react to it violently and/or angrily. The well wishing part though, I could never see that being done. I will never ever see Demona and Elisa getting along. Demona will tolerate her but not like her or even want to be around her.

(Side-Note - I don't think that Broadway would be so worried about his cooking in front of Demona or that he would get along so well with her. This goes against the behavior we have seen him portray in 2168 in REQUIEM. He should always be uncomfortable around her and only be putting on a happy face for Angela's sake. After all that has happened, I just can't see them getting along THAT well.)

The best part was Demona's getting drunk over the whole annoucement. She still is carrying a torch for Goliath deep down and that is a great reaction, something that I would expect Demona to do if she's not going to get violent and start ranting. It's either violence or drinking for Demona's reaction and since we didn't get violence, I'm glad we got drinking.

Also seeing the Andrea/Demona Halloween Party was great. A lot of great scenes in there although all that lying that Demona is doing to keep her Gargoyle nature a secret is going to come back to haunt her one day down the line. I did like that Demona called Andrea to talk about her ex-husband getting remarried.

THE GATHERING OF THE GARGOYLES - That was a great addition with all it's meanings. Although I have to wonder if it will work as well as Goliath thinks. I just can't see every clan being willing to participate. You could get Ishimura, London, Scotland, and Manhattan but China for example has just found out about the outside world and I think would be hesitant to make such a move so soon. Avalon is restricted by Oberon. They can't really do anything without his ok so they might be out. New Olympus likes it's isolation and besides, I don't think they would have a favorable reaction to having Goliath chair the Gathering since he's engaged to a human. That's bound to cause some problems. I really hope that this council doesn't go as well as it might seem. There should be some real hesitation and arguements over it by many clans who might value their independence. I think that there should also be some sort of culture shock among those who are going to meet. If everyone starts to act friendly and nice and everyone gets along great, it'll be a disappointment. The UN is a pit of screaming, insane politicians who would willingly sell out everyone to see that their specific country gets ahead. I don't expect the clans to be exactly like that but there shouldn't be that much agreement. There should be chaos and arguements outside of the major three clans (Manhattan, Ishimura, and London) in this council.

Also I do hope that Lucy and Graeme finally do get a chance to meet when this Gathering is held. I'm just dying to see that happen. (And of course I have to mention Xanatos and the Ishimuran amusement park is one of the best moments in this episode. It was realistic and unexpected. I do hope to see Vinnie at this Gathering. It would just be wrong not to have him there. I wonder what the New Olympian delegation would say about him :-) )

Pictures - All wonderful as usual. The one of Demona and Andrea is especially funny.

**END OF COMMENTS ON CURRENT TGS EPISODE**
Airwalker
Monday, July 19, 1999 09:30:29 AM
IP: 75.new-york-33-34rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Have not read the current ep yet, but the art is awesome!!

Shantell--I recognized your work right away! Keep up the good work!! :)

Steve-you ever gonna send me an em? or should I just give up bugging you?

Post on my fanfic--should be up early august!

Taleweaver and Jeb--got your ems thanks guys!!!

Lexy, Aaron & Coyote--Hey there! :)

Jenna
Monday, July 19, 1999 09:25:30 AM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Speaking of Lake Flacid:

I must admit that I haven't seen this flick, but just from the previews, I thought it's going to suck. I've always found (with horror/monster movie at least) that the less they show the monster in the preview, the better the film will be.
There is a certain logic to this, if the only exciting scenes that the trailer editors can come up with are the big, effect scenes with the beastie, then obviously there must not be much else to the movie. One of my favorite examples of this phenomenon is Anaconda, the only thing they used in the trailers was the big snake footage- not suprisingly it broke the laws of physics by sucking, biting and blowing at the same time....
Skippy The Klingon
Monday, July 19, 1999 09:24:37 AM
IP: 207.22.234.116

Jeez..... The room's been acting funky lately. At least the new episode was posted on time. (heheheheh, Scotland Yard is after him....>:)) BTW, NUMBER TEN!!!!!
Traveler - [traveler45@geocities.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 09:14:14 AM
IP: 98ace365.ipt.aol.com

Mandolin> At TG99 ,Spaceballs took 1st place in Amiga40K Intro Competition and in Amiga Demo Competition! :):
xin - [exin@gmx.de]
Monday, July 19, 1999 09:04:41 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

I composed this post offline while the room was down... so I might as well post it now.

Fanfic Progress> I've almost finished something I've been writing for TGS, and am trying to help another writer out, but the Buffy fanfic is up and running again. I'm starting to think that it'll take the place of "The N-Files" for the title of Longest Fanfic Mandi's Ever Finished. I swear, I had to send the third chunk to an archive making sure the plain text HTML source wasn't word-wrapped; line breaks literally added 120k to the file!

Saw a couple movies this weekend, so...

**MOVIE SPOILERS TO FOLLOW!**

Lake Placid> I almost didn't go with the usual group to see this... I ended up leaving work sick to my stomach and sleeping for four hours straight. I was sure I'd have trouble staying awake through the film. But I went, and it wasn't too bad. (Fortunately, my stomach had settled by the evening - otherwise, the few gore shots would have bothered me.) It was predictable, I really wanted to smack Bridget Fonda for the first half of the film, and the body count wasn't high enough to satisfy the other three... but there were some funny scenes. Especially in the second half. I never thought the most twisted character in the film would be played by Betty White, of all people. It was more entertaining than I'd expected. Probably a renter, folks.

Muppets From Space> I'm renting this when it comes out on tape just to go back and identify all the sci-fi movie references they threw in there, and catch all the cameos. It's the only time I've ever found the appearance of "Dawson's Creek" regulars intentionally funny. The absolute best scene, IMO, was Miss Piggy's kung-fu match against one of the 'men in black' who take Gonzo away. Even with the background noise of the kid in the back row having a temper tantrum, I loved it. I haven't laughed so hard at a Muppet movie in years.

**END MOVIE SPOILERS!**

G99 stuff> Okay, it's been three weeks since G99, and no news on the camera. I suppose Heather Rice didn't pick mine up, because if she'd gotten the film developed and found it was mine, I probably would have gotten something in the mail by now. If anyone sees her online, please ask her to drop me a line, even if it's just to let me know she didn't pick up my camera. I'm still furious at myself for losing it when and how I did.

Okay, I have a report to write... later!
Mandolin - [weird_web@hotmail.com]
Monday, July 19, 1999 08:54:24 AM
IP: ch164-10.apgea.army.mil

Jen>Ah so?

JackaL>I'm cool? Long time ago that someone said that to me...


Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Monday, July 19, 1999 08:22:46 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

I haven't read the new ep yet, but the pictures are WONDERFUL!!!!!!!

Jenniren
Monday, July 19, 1999 08:21:00 AM
IP: user-2ivf0fn.dialup.mindspring.com

JackaL>I'm not ,i still miss her... ,a hug? Every time! :):
Exin - [exin@gmx.de]
Monday, July 19, 1999 08:20:35 AM
IP: 193.97.193.250

Sixth! I'm in the Top Ten! It's a bleedin' miracle!

*Turns to scottish accent*
There be sorcery abroad!
*Back to normal voice*

Coyote: The very one and only wave.

Catch ya later, guys.

Top ten, happy happy joy joy!
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Monday, July 19, 1999 08:03:35 AM
IP: mp-217-226-165.daxnet.no

Fifth or sixth, depending... wow, I haven't been top 10 in forever...
Mandolin
Monday, July 19, 1999 07:42:37 AM
IP: ch164-10.apgea.army.mil

Something in the top ten.
Real post later.
Lady Arianna
Monday, July 19, 1999 07:17:31 AM
IP: mid-qbu-nqq-vty49.as.wcom.net

AWW Nuts (snaps fingers)
Xanathar
Melbourne, victoria, Australia
Monday, July 19, 1999 06:57:09 AM
IP: 203.29.192.74

FIRST!!
Xanathar
Melbourne, victoria, Australia
Monday, July 19, 1999 06:55:59 AM
IP: 203.29.192.74

Thanks for clearing the room. Second.

Starsinger
Theresa - [Starsinger@Webtv.net]
Monday, July 19, 1999 06:50:24 AM
IP: proxy-393.public.rwc.webtv.net

Presenting the TGS season finale episode:

Peace brings new challenges, new fears, new dreams, and new hopes.

Seeds of Change

Written by: Kathy Pogge and Patrick Toman

Illustrations by: Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson, Christi Smith Hayden, Shauntell Holm, and Noel Leas

Enjoy!
Patrick Toman
Monday, July 19, 1999 06:21:02 AM
IP: 98af83e4.ipt.aol.com