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Kit > "Bimbos" is a great book and I'm glad you are getting a kick out of it!

Bombs > I know it's simplistic of me, but I've always considered it kinda chicken***t to kill from a safe distance ... especially when those being killed are thousands of civilians. IMO, war should be between those who _want_ to fight (volunteers, not draftees). Better yet, put the leaders of the opposing sides in a ring and let them duke it out, rather than squander the lives of their people. I'm naive and idealistic enough to hope that maybe then, if it affected them _personally_, they'd be a little more reluctant.
:P This is why all my games and most of my books are fantasy novels, and why I was so damn disturbed about describing the war between the Emerin and Montennor in which the elves use killer destructive magic and the dwarven war machines can annihiliate hundreds with one catapult-bomb. Uck, uck, uck.

Deuce > Why? Advertising and peer pressue, I think, two of the main but suckiest reasons to do something self-detrimental ...

Sheesh, I'm in a negative mood today!

Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Sunday, October 10, 1999 09:59:50 PM
IP: vecna.ndip.eskimo.net

Shogun Raptor- Of course Karen and Kirby look like they were stolen from Southpark.
The Cat and Birdy Warneroonie Pinkie Brainy Big Cartoonie Show
OR
The Cat and Bunny Warneroonie Super Loony Big Cartoonie Show
is just a cheap amalgation of show clips Warner Brothers no longer thinks are worthy of having their own timeslot. As a result, they assume the shows, even amalgated, aren't going to pull in any viewers, and so they try and take something froma very popular show and cash in on it. (And as a result cut the reused clip number from 4-6 down to a mesley 3-4...) The same logistics are probably the cause of Dende in Dragonball Z saying "Hey! Don't piss off the god of love!" even though the line makes absolutley no sense. Of course, Yamcha and Tenshinhan using bad outdated slang is even worse...
Robby
Sunday, October 10, 1999 09:15:12 PM
IP: spider-te033.proxy.aol.com

is it me or do Karen and Kirby look eerily like something B@stardized from South Park? "OH MY GOD THEY KILLED KAREN AND KIRBY!!! SWEET!"
shogun raptor
Sunday, October 10, 1999 08:31:49 PM
IP: mia1-wc2.atlas.digex.net

History: revisionist and otherwise>
I believe the incident Theresa was citing was the Bombing of Coventry. In which the Brits had cracked Enigma, the German's code and learned of the plan to bomb the town, but alerting the people of Coventry would have tipped off the Germans that their super-code had been cracked. So knowing the situation, they didn't warn Coventry and it was bombed. That's as strong as I remember it.

As far as judging history out of context, I wouldn't mind that, but be fair. Don't call someone who judges one set of actions with disgust as a PC revisionist. And someone who judges that same set with romanticism and a sense of nobility as normal. If you don't want the people who dropped the bomb or fight in wars judged, that is fine, but turning around and creating noble figures out of them is just as bad. While my opinion of Politically correcting history is low, PC still has a long way to go to match the warping effects romance has had on history.

War is Hell> I shouldn't have do dignify this, but since it's brought on to the table liet me ask a couple of questions. If war is hell, how come human beings excel at it so well? If war is hell, why is it an enterprise that is so heavily romanticized. An example I cite is the history circulum in my school where each section is divided up by war. (Colonial Period highlighted by the Revolution. The 19th cent. highlighted by the Civil War and so on.) For a society that generally accepts the 'War is Hell', it certainly doesn't show by the actions.

***I should warn everyone, I'm going to get real mean and nasty on this topic. This is one of the chief reasons I'm a misanthrop, an agnostic with attitude, and a cynic. So you may want to skip it.***

War is Hell> You know, I think there is one thing we can do to honor the people who died in any war, whether they be civilian or solidier and that is to remember it honestly.

I don't subscribe to the notion that America was only doing what it thought was right. WWII had been commencing for several years before America got involved and it only did because of an attack on Pearl Harbor. My opinion is that America got into the war not out some moral obligation, not out of some need to fight a fascist dictator, but because their ego got spanked and nothing feels better than payback.

I also don't subscribe to the idea that America was some 'heroic good guy' fighting to save the world. At the end of both WWI and WWII, the victors immediate got down to the business of carving up the world. Many of the problems in the last part of this century, Vietnam, Korea, the Persian Gulf are consequences of events like the Treaty of Versaille. Just because one used an ink pen and the other a bayonet doesn't register as difference in my opinion. In some cases the ink pen is worse for at least the one who uses the bayonet has made their intentions knows.

This is my opinion. That humans as a group are stupid, wrathful and cruel creatures. Wars aren't hell. Wars are effective. Something offends your collective sense of ego and it must be dealt with. A war gets that point across in the most blunt and straightforward way possible. But doing something to stroke one's ego is a poor excuse, so we wrap it up in patriotism, in nobility. We romanticize the enterprise so we think it's the best we can do. Or we rationalize it saying, "Oh well, we have to do it." I refuse to buy those accoutrements perfering to see the ugly truth.

If you want history told truthfully, the restrict it to the facts; the causes, the actions and the consequences. But we don't want to do that. We want our pride, we want our nobility. We want to think this enobles us. And it's all the more ennobling if they didn't want to do this, but had to.

I thik if we as a people are to mature we should at least have the intestinal fortitude (the guts) to see things as they are. People die in war. Yes. More to the point, people are turned into to ugly creatures for the purpose of war. And we do it because we want to. I think that will ensure that so many who have died since the existance of this wretched species didn't die in vain.
Taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Sunday, October 10, 1999 08:29:13 PM
IP: ced60-112.ced.csupomona.edu

**enters the room, switching out the candles and replacing it with a HUGE green and white candle.**

What a wonderful time to be a Michigan State fan ... just beat Michigan yesterday, 6-0 for the first time since 1966, and to top it off they're #5 on the AP poll. Life is good. :)

(Incidentally, apologies to any Michigan fans that may be in here for the bottom of this post, and also those it might offend ... I just gotta let it out, it's been three years since MSU's beaten the Wolverines. Trust me, you *don't* want to hear the second half!!)

Stephen: Check your e-mail, I believe my instructions for the decal should have arrived last night. :)

One last bit on the holocaust Legos: Interesting that Jannie should mention the holocaust museum in Houston ... a similar museum in New York, according to the article, was quite impressed by the concentration camp Legos, impressed enough to request a set (the artist made multiple sets) for display.

Dropping the Bomb: Oh, how ironic ...
Gunjack speaks of the Dolittle raid immortalized in the film "Thirty Seconds over Tokyo" While they were quite horrific in their own right, they don't hold a candle to the end result of the two bombs.
It's long been the opinion of historians that it was World War I that ushered in the modern age of warfare, war that has no rules and no glory. I disagree. World War II was that war ... while there was quite a bit of nationalistic jingoism on all sides (the Nazi propaganda machine ... hell, the Americans weren't much better, check out some of the theatrical cartoons of the era; how many of them do you recall end with "Buy War Bonds?" *The* definitive WWII cartoon propaganda short was actually put out by Disney ... it was a Donald Duck 'toon called "Der Fuhrer's Face" where DD has a nightmare about working in a Nazi munitions factory), those who fought in the field *knew* there was no honor in this war ... no glory ... the only victory there would be for them would be *survival,* plain and simple.
Even on the homefront ... we mourn the Holocaust, but we selectively seem to forget that the United States used similar tactics in rounding up Japanese-Americans, many of whom were born in the US, on suspicion that they would be "spies" for the Japanese. (George Takei being a notable internment camp survivor)
While ultimately the bombs would end the war without a terrible cost in blood on both sides had the Americans gone ahead with an invasion of the Japanese mainland, it left us conversely with a terrible legacy and the threat of nuclear armageddon even to the present day ... don't tell me nobody in here wasn't worried about India and Pakistan showing off just this past year.
We may think that the Allies won the war. But in reality, it's becoming more and more clear that WWII *had* no winners. If the cost wasn't in blood, it was in souls. I can certainly imagine how J. Robert Oppenheimer or Albert Einstein must have felt when the weapon they had helped to develop was used at tremendous cost in human life.

**whew** That was deep.

Deuce: Yeesh, whatta terrible party. Ranks right up there with Homecoming my senior year when the people I thought were my friends thought it'd be fun to TP my car.

Fire Storm: Count me in on that 2002 group if you get yer act together, dude! :)

**looks around** Not much else to say. Hope this doesn't get lost in the shuffle when the room wipes. :)

**sits back in the massage chair, fixating on the candle's brightly burning flame.**
Coyote the Elated Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
"Hail to those mother****ers, Hail to those big ****suckers, Hail Hail to Michigan, the cesspool of the West!"
Sunday, October 10, 1999 07:14:31 PM
IP: modem62.i-is.com

Aris: Think about it for a second. What the hell would’ve been accomplished by killing American civilians? Unlike the Germans, Italians, and Japanese, the Americans weren’t fighting to conquer, we were fighting for peace and freedom. We did not colonize any of our defeated foes, or round up all their Jews and put them in ovens. Some of our actions in the war were unfair, but always remember that war is not fair. War is bad. War is started by an aggressor, and the US did not start WWII, we finished the damnable thing. Hell yes! If we started a war like that, and it was the only efficient way to make us remove our fascist leadership and military that was conquering other nations by force, then bomb the living *&^$ out of this country. I’ll have moved to Canada rather than support a country like that. … That’s how you stop the aggressor in a modern war.

About the Bomb: A reality check.

A basic rule people seem to be missing about the horror of modern war.

WHEN YOU FIGHT A DICTATORSHIP, THE CIVILIANS ALWAYS DIE!

Whether by fire-bomb, atomic bomb, starvation, or hand to hand killing, the civilians will die because they are the base level that supports the military industrial complex which supplies that military with power. Men like Saddam Husein and Hitler don’t surrender. They don’t give a damn about their people, since they are themselves safe away from the fighting. You beat them by making their own people oust them and their generals. Killing enough soldiers or leaders to stop an aggressor nation and make them surrender is next to impossible. Instead you kill their military industrial complex. That is modern warfare, and you can’t fight and win in this day and age in any other way. It is the art of war by intimidation and industrial crippling.

Why don’t some people understand why war is So Damned Terrible? It is because it ISN’T A GAME!!! You can’t play by nice clean rules. The armies from both sides don’t line up in a vacuum and shoot until one side gives up. This isn’t chess where there are only military pieces on the table. Hell, we have conscription! Our soldiers didn’t even Want to fight! The pieces hide in cities and towns behind civilians. They make the civilians build bombs and factories and weapons. They make the civilians fight.

And the US couldn’t just quit and declare peace either. They had to remove the conquerors, the fascists with guns and control over an entire country. WWII doesn’t end until one side surrenders. Refusing to drop the bomb wouldn’t have saved any damn lives, civilian or military. It would’ve cost them, a lot of them.

If we removed the atomic bomb from the equation, do you know what we would’ve done?! We’d have instead used fire-bombings on Bigger cities, with More civilians, because that is how you Win The Damn War! If you don’t blow enough factories that make weapons, and force the compliant populace to remove their leaders and army, the only other way is direct land conquest and slaughter.

We had to conquer Berlin in Germany. We bombed the crap out of the place. Allied armies ran over the country-side, destroying resistance until the soldiers and civilians quit fighting. The Russians were even more devastating. But Hell, if we could’ve killed only a fraction of the people we did in our bombings of Germany and made them turn over Hitler and his minions and sign a declaration of surrender, I’d say it would’ve been a better option. Having a people voluntarily remove their military industrial complex is always better than taking it (and them) apart piece by peace until all of the damn country is rubble.

The reason why only the Japanese civilians were killed? Duh, we were fighting in JAPAN, where they lived. That is what happens when your country decides to conquer the world! It isn’t fair. It isn’t good. It is WAR, damn it!

WAR IS HELL!
Don’t start wars.

But, Jeez, if one country decides to conquer the world, and we fight back, don’t blame us for the casualties. Blame those fascist @$$-holes who started this war, and wouldn’t surrender before this. The military government of Japan is to blame, not the United States.

Not dropping the bomb wouldn’t have statistically saved one damn Civilian life. For every man woman and child spared in Nagasaki, a dozen more would’ve died in larger cities like Tokyo during bombing runs.

Now here's a question: Why didn't we nuke Tokyo instead of Nagasaki?

Think about it.

Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Sunday, October 10, 1999 06:55:08 PM
IP: 1cust7.tnt2.brockton.ma.da.uu.net

Aris the scenario you described did happen in England during the war. If someone has the fine details please feel free to fill them in.

During the war a high Nazi code was broken, and the British found out about the bombing of one of their towns. Churchill made the decision to let them go ahead with the bombing without warning the people of that town.


Theresa
Sunday, October 10, 1999 06:36:52 PM
IP: proxy-363.public.rwc.webtv.net

Oh goodie, the "Should we have dropped the bomb" argument. I love this one.

I'm going to keep my opinion to myself, though. What I really wanted to comment on was two side issues:

I think it was Patrick who said something about not being able to judge historical figures by the standards of our time. To which I reply, EXACTLY. When I was still in college, I ran into this idea in both history and literature. In fact, my absolute loathing for the politically correct, moraly superior nonsense that passes as literary criticism now is the main reason I quit Grad school. Expecting someone raised in Victorian society to live up to ideals that wouldn't be developed for almost 100 years isn't very fair. The most ridiculous case that comes to mind is the contreversy about Huck Finn. Calling Mark Twain a racist - in his historical context - is like calling Ghandi violent.

Point 2 (from Jenna, I think) - the validity of abstract and "shock" art. I have more trouble with this topic. My basic opinion is that, like free verse poetry, abstract art is very, very hard to do well, but easy to fake. There are some (not many) modern, abstract artists who really do create shocking, disturbing works of art to communicate a difficult message. These people honestly don't care if you respect them, or how much money they make. They have a vision and a message, and can not do anything other than try to communicate it.

There are a lot more fakers, people hungry for publicity, and for NEA grant money, who just do things that they know will shock and offend, then hide behind "freedom of expression" and "artistic license" and try to convince other people that being offended is wrong.

I'd love for the issue to be very clear cut. (For instance, I have a friend who refuses to accept the validity of any work of art that isn't literally representational) As it stands, I have a hard time seperating the two. The recent thing about the lego death camps is a good example. I personally believe (for now) that the artist was trying to make a real, valid statement, and even though it makes me uncomfortable, I support his right to do it. If I find out that he turns around and sells his censored legos for thousands of dollars and does the daytime talk show circuit, I'll change my mind and decide he's a worthless hack, and a waste of carbon.

OK, that's about enough for today. I need to clean up my living room and find something for lunch. See y'all later.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Sunday, October 10, 1999 01:51:34 PM
IP: pppa20-fortworth12-2r235.saturn.bbn.com

Regarding "Were we right to drop the bomb" and other such questions... these discussions have become more and more common as the educational system as a whole takes more and more of a revisionist view of history. The 20/20 hindsight reasoning that accompies these "discussions" ussually ignores the historical context - i.e., the time period itself and the actual people/personalities involved - in favor of being politically correct.

It's not reasonable to judge the decisions that were made by our government and military in 1945 by late 20th century values. Whether the bomb was used or not, everyone involved knew that lives were going to be lost either way. Based on the data from previous campaigns like Midway and Guadalcanal, causualty rates for an all-out ground invasion of the Japanese mainland were projected to be well over 2/3 for BOTH SIDES. Even the troops knew what their odds of survival were, yet plans still went ahead for that invasion. Troops were massed. Equipment was shipped out and readied. The decision to try using the new atomic weapon was litterally made at the eleventh hour... and by no means could anyone involved in that decision guarantee that it would induce a Japanese surrender. To the military, it was just another weapon in the arsonal.

For lack of a better term, we lucked out in the bomb being much more effective than we had ever imagined, not as a weapon of destruction, but as one of intimidation. Yes, a lot of Japanese civilians died. But a lot of British, French, and German civilians died, too, in the massive bombing campaigns in Europe. Not to mention the 9 million plus civilians who died systematically at the hands of the Nazis, and the untold numbers the Japanese killed during their invasions of China and the Pacific islands.

What matters more is how many lives were SAVED by the use of the atomic bomb - beginning with the many men ready for the invasion that never happened who knew they faced almost certain death once they stepped off their landing boats.

So what's my point, after rambling on like this? The same as it was in my last post. Don't just take at face value what you read in a history book. Think, look for other input, and always try to see that there are often many, many sides to a story, and that "right" answers often do not exist. History is not a science. The events and facts do not change, but the way we interpret them is constantly changing. And sometimes that means we tend to lose sight of the context of the events we are trying to understand.
Patrick Toman
Sunday, October 10, 1999 10:00:55 AM
IP: 98cc3f1c.ipt.aol.com

Atom bomb discussion> I won't take a side here (actually I will - I think it was wrong to drop it - but that's not the point of my post) but I want to ask a question to be answered by those who said that they support the bombing for it saved more lives than it destroyed: If in a hypothetical scenario the death of hundreds of thousands of *American* civilians were required to save more lifes both foreign and American (basically replacing Japanese civilians with American civilians) would you similarly be willing to push the button? Or do you think that the fact the dead civilians belonged in the enemy country makes them more acceptable losses than if they belonged in your own country?
Aris Katsaris - [katsaris@otenet.gr]
Sunday, October 10, 1999 09:56:52 AM
IP: athe530-b019.otenet.gr

AAron: <floor plan of Notre Dame cathedral>
Yeah, there is a Puz-3D Notre Dame Cathedral that is pretty accurate.

Coyote: LM's eyes only bother her when she is working on the computer. Her glasses are already anti-glare and UV protected, and the perscription is too high to just get glasses at the store.
Her eyes are too dry and too teary at the same time. The headaches come from eye strain while she is working on the photo. Other problems are blurry vision and double vision after working for a few hours. (FYF, she had been trying to take breaks when she can, but the customers are bugging her so much that she feels bad for taking a break and it occasionally makes her feel worse because she feels that she isn't getting far on the photo (but she is) and almost punishes herself for not having it done by now.)
(PLUS massive lack of sleep in the past 2 months AND the fact that these photos are black and white, VERY fuzzy, and very high resolution doesn't help. <NOTE: For the first time in a long time, she is looking forward to working on the websites because it involves COLOR!>
PS: I would help her with the photos, but anyone who knows Photoshop would agree that you can't work on a 150mb file with only 32 mb of ram. (ALL of my ram is in LM's computer to make the job easier on her.)
But thanks for the advice!

OH yeah, everyone who cares, PLEASE cross your fingers for us! We aren't sure of they will pay and there is a few more things with this customer, and there is another customer that shows promise.

Gathering: Coyote: If all goes well over the next year or so, LM and I may try to put together a bid for G2002. We have been trying to figure which hotel would be best since the trip from the airport when we returned from the gathering 1999. (Well, thats not all we have been thinking about.)
(Actually, at first it started as a plan for a local clan idea for all of us within 200 miles of Michigan)

Jannie: If your mind is in the gutter, mine is right there next to it. That picture is JUST what you thought!

Deuce: Went to a party like that once... MAN... that punch that was poured into a cooler for easy access probaly could have been poured into my gas tank! Not a single person was over 18, one guy was walking around asking if anyone had a condom, and I was afraid to drink even Coke for fear someone would spike it or something (and man, was I thirsty!). My date was drinking too, and it is quite possible that she did have sex when she disapeared upstairs for a while. Oh well...
Fire Storm - [Night-Flame@usa.net]
Sunday, October 10, 1999 07:17:15 AM
IP: 216.90.45.161

Wilek-thanx for the link, this is now in my faves file. but........ OH MY GOD, WHATS WITH THE GARGOYLE PUPPET. AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Well ,thats not a real garg[one of ours] so it doesn't count. So , thanx.
night walker - [goliath01@hotmail.com]
Sunday, October 10, 1999 01:53:44 AM
IP: proxy-373.public.rwc.webtv.net

Hello all. Sorry , I broke my promise. I've tried to get here but my mom's either on the phone , the webtv box is breaking , or someone has something planned[ usually some small trip to an aunt's house that only results in me falling asleep on the couch].just a few replies for now , I'm sooooooo tired.It's 12:30 and everyone 'cept for me is wide awake.

Jannie-HA! I see it. Probaly because my 14 year old immaturity is kicking in.

me being weird-I was actually in a good mood at that moment and just felt like acting weird for once , so if you know me well [whoever said that I'm sorry I forgot your name] I'm a pretty quiet person. That's why I'm partially afraid to go to the gatherings , I'm afraid that I might bore you all to death.

Net/black market fetuses-Excuse me for a sec. while I go and vomit.

Concentration camp legos-this is not art , it's sick. Anybody could do this with various sets, I don't know of anybody who is brave enough to suffer the consequences yet. But in this town it wouldn't matter. I don't feel like saying why right now.

Princess mononoke-I must see this movie , I first heard of it here about a week ago but I know that if this movie does good that a certain greatest show ever might have some new plans. I can be hopeful can't I?

Everyone-did you all get that group reply I sent of the 48 questions, the not a joke e-mail. I was hoping If i sent it right. My last few atempts for a group e-mail weren't good.

Also I was hoping [before I first saw six degrees of gargoyles] That I could do this segment that I had called actor/actress loop. It's bacicaly the same thing exept I would chain gargs to gargs. It desn't only include gargoyles though I would've used it at least once. Since someone already had that and top ten does anybody have an idea for something that I could use?

Bjork-I heard that she had a new song out for the "Being John Malkovich " soundtrack called "Amphibian". This is great , but I don't know what the film is about , does anybody have any idea?

Well , gotta get some sleep.

Goodnight my rookery brothers and sisters. love you all.


night walker - [goliath01@hotmail.com]
hobart, IN, usa
Sunday, October 10, 1999 01:44:48 AM
IP: proxy-373.public.rwc.webtv.net

**SPOILERS FOR FOX SATURDAY MORNING CARTOONS**

Big Guy and Rusty> I was fully prepared to hate this. The cheesy theme song didn't help. But...I got to liking it quite soon after it started. The technology is incredible, the Big Guy techsuit is amazing, and Rusty has this whole 50s-kawaii Mega Man-esque aura. Kind of neat.

Beast Machines> I LOVE THIS SHOW! I LOVE THIS SHOW I LOVE THIS SHOW I LOVE THIS SHOW! OH SWEET BELCHING MOTHER OF CTHULHU ON A POGO STICK, HOW I LOVE THIS SHOW! (I just got the *weirdest* mental image there.) The CGI is *wonderful*--better than Starship Troopers, IMHO. The Maximals' new forms are great (although Rattrap and Optimus took some getting used to), and I LOVE the Vehicons. Megatron especially has this whole excruciatingly kewl Borg Queen/Kosh/Baron Harkonnen air. (And he's stopped saying 'Yes' every other word. I'm glad he got over that particular nervous tic.) And the liquidy explosions and fires are very, very novel. It's the kind of thing that shouldn't work, but works spectacularly. And the busy signal in today's ep was one of the most chilling things I've ever heard, somehow. Two very, very miniscule nitpicks, though--when did the iron kong become a Jedi, and how does Megatron's gigantic dragon form cram itself into that encounter suit? Oh well, it's all still very kewl. ^_^ (And I do wonder what's behind the magnetically-sealed door across the Tetrad bridge in Megs' throne room...)

**END**

Hiroshima and Nagasaki> After so many ppl's masterful words on this, I'm just not going to bother. ;)

Gunjack> ACK, what an awful experience. <does things to Sli Sludge which would probably make *everyone* throw up>

Deuce> :O That party sounds like something right out of a nightmare. I'm thankful you got out alive and <shudder> undefiled. <<what the hell gave these kids—and none of them were of legal drinking age, so they were kids—the idea that getting themselves piss-drunk would be conducive to a good time?>> I have no idea--a lot of ppl seem to think that a party isn't a party without booze for some bizarre reason. Ecch. <<More than half of them aren't going to remember any of this (good thing me and a couple other guys took pictures... >:-|)>> Heh heh heh...blackmail is a fine art, no? <G> j/k

Zath> <<This is connected to the Hamster Dance somehow. It just has to be...>> <gasp> Of course...I never thought of that...Well. The hamsters aren't taking our world or any other. We fight rodents with rodents. Boyz? [Pinky, Brain, the rats of NIMH, and a horde of genetically-engineered black rats belonging to the MIB gather round the CR.] You have a job to do...

Shogun Raptor> <<I just had an interesting thought: if you combined the lego castle/fright nights with Lego town sets, you could make your own lego evil dead/army of darkness set>> Fascinating...if I had the talent, I'd try that...Speaking of interesting Legos, has anyone here been to Downtown Disney in Florida? There's a Lego sculpture garden there that is nothing short of legendary.

Pistoff> <<And when you consider the way certain people were treated just because they were Japanese (yet they were American citizens)...it just makes me angry.>> Ohh, that is what *really* ticks me off. I will never, never understand why this country imprisoned its own citizens just because they happened to have Japanese ancestors. >:( (If I'm not mistaken, didn't George Takei spend some time in the internment camps in his youth?) <<REMAINS IDENTIFIED; POLICE BELIEVE VICTIM DIED>> I can just see it--Clem: "What do ya think happened ta this guy, Earl?" Earl: "Well Clem, he don't have a pulse and he don't have most of his arms 'n' legs. Ah thank he's daid." Clem: "Case closed. Hey, whut say we stop in Tammy Mae's diner? She serves great donuts." Earl: "Yup. And some damn fine coffee and GOOD bud."

Oh, and check out my name link. Disturbingly enough, these are all real. O_o

Kitania> <<So far Ryan Stout has taken over two years.>> Thanks much for that; suddenly I'm a tad more confident. ;) <<Keep up the good work on your fifth story, hope it gets done soon.>> Thanks. Things are looking up, in fact...;D <<Thanks for telling us about the upcoming Evil Dead game (I will definitely be buying and playing it!) and for the entertaining Hamster Based Technology link.>> <bows> All in a day's work. ^_^

SJ> <<I'm not sure where some of you were getting "Thrust's character is more like SB" last week, cause Thrust had what, 2 lines and about 30 seconds of screen time last ep???>> Maybe a process of elimination? Tankorr's more like Rhinox, and we don't know what's up with Jetstorm (or whatever his name is, the smart-aleck hovering jet dude), so Thrust is the only one left. (I would almost compare Jetstorm to Waspinator, but I heard somewhere that that's kind of implausible?)
Wilek Nereus
Sunday, October 10, 1999 01:21:41 AM
IP: spaceproxy.com

The Bombings: The thing to remember here, folks, is exactly what Kaioto said--War is Hell. There is, essentially, no real such thing as a "jyhad" or "holy" war. War is violent, it's disturbing, it can't really be described as "just". There's pretty much no right or wrong side in war; there's your side, and their's the other side. The Spartans would kill just about anything that moved on the battlefield, with little discretion. Terms like "poisoning the well" and "scorch and burn" were invented because of war practices. You can have compassion for both, but the bottom line is, I believe that America did the right thing. Was it the "just" thing, dooming thousands of civilians to die? Not especially. I believe it was the pilot of one of those planes who was quoted as saying seconds after his bombing run, "I am not an evil man, but I do an evil thing". Something to that effect. Were we just in dropping the bomb? Probably not. Were we right in doing it? I believe yes, we absolutely were. Perhaps I'm just latently sociopathic, but if it took killing thousands of innocents to save multiple thousands more, both Japanese and American...I would have probably chosen to drop the bomb too.

We can't beat ourselves up over this issue with regret. It was a horrible choice to make in any circumstance, but it was one we did make, and although things went to hell and back for a while, the wounds, as they say, have healed. No doubt the resentment will always be there, but it was a choice I think we had to make, and I think it was the right one. I applaud your compassion for the Japanese, but I don't think we should take the ultimate bleeding-heart view of "we should never have dropped it". How about "the Japanese should never have been a militarstic dictatorship to begin with"? Better yet, how about "the world shouldn't be so screwed up that two countries are willing to kill thousands/millions of each other". War is hell, and as such we must committ various infernal deeds before the fighting is done.

I can this one thing, which may sound harsh and very cold. I personally do not think it is wise to have an overly sympathetic military. With the exception of civilians, the "enemy" should not be given much compassion, unless they seek it (as in surrendering). This is necessary in war, and why our military (especially the Marines--see "Full Metal Jacket") turns its soldiers (especially the Marines) into walking killing machines; because that is what is necessary. There is very little, if anything, that is "just" about war.

I am glad that you are disturbed by the bombings, though. It just shows what a caring compassionate individual you really are. While I think we were right in doing what we did, I do not by any stretch of the imagination think it was a "wonderful" thing that we did.

Guns of the South: Part of what made this novel so interesting for me was that Harry got you to care about the Southern army and its signature characters (Lee, Davis, Nate Caudell and Mollie Bean)...even though, essentially, their cause was wrong. I mean, you can't keep oppressing an entire race of people! I was more than pleased, however, that..
***SPOILER***
...slavery ended up being abolished (or going to be abolished, albeit slowly) by Lee. That, coupled with the defeat of the Rivington men and the marriage of Nate and Mollie, made the book very satsifying to me. :)
**END SPOILERS***

Weekend TV: Good eps of Batman Beyond, Pokemon, Beast Machines, Big Guy, Digimon, even Xyber 9....
After today's Beast Machines, I am sorta convinced Thrust is Silverbolt (although not last week--I'm not sure where some of you were getting "Thrust's character is more like SB" last week, cause Thrust had what, 2 lines and about 30 seconds of screen time last ep???). And I think Tankorr is Rhinox; he's one of the Maximals at any rate, Optimus all but gave that away when he said Tankorr's spark "seemed familiar". Good ep.
I also sort of like Xyber 9. It's fun; sort of reminds me of Star Wars in a way (young protagonist against super-evil dictator). Ang you gotta love Rene Auberjanois (sp?) as a talking sphere-on-a-stick.
I also must say I've totally gone 180 on Digimon. I thought this show was a complete rip-off of Pokemon, and in truth I think there some strong similarities. But this is actually a pretty decent show, with a plot and hokey villains. It's fun for the campy stories, anyway. :)

Kitiana: Being a conservative, I'd be more than happy to see Sen. John McCann get the Republican nomination than Bush. From what I've read and heard about McCann, he's a pretty stand-up guy, a real patriot (spent about 5 years in a Vietnam POW camp), and seems to be pretty dern honest (is coming out and telling pretty much *everything* he did wrong in his life, unlike the "maybe I did something bad when I was younger" style of the younger Bush). And he's not afraid to criticize the Republican/GOP leadership (which needs some criticism if you ask me. If you wanted to buy some backbones, don't go looking in there direction for extra inventory). I know you probably don't really share my views on politics, but you and I sort of share the same opinion of Bush.

Deuce: I would like to applaud you, sir, for your wise decision not to get drilled out of your skull. That proves to me (well, it doesn't *prove*, I knew all along) that you are more intelligent than most of your peers; you didn't go with peer pressure and submit, you decided not to do something foolish, like get hammered. There are precious too little of your kind, my friend.
To sound like an old man, you can have a good time without getting faced. I don't see the fun in it either; I've gotten drunk a couple times before, and I absolutely *hated* it. Praying to the porcelain god at 3 in the morning, having to brush your teeth 5 times to get rid of the vomit smell, having to launder your clothes at dawn to get the booze stench out so no one (least of all your family) notices it....don't get it. Don't think ones so underage should either. It's okay to drink responsibly (the adults in the room can attest to the taste of a good one now and then, no?), but I never liked getting wasted, and I'm glad you chose not too either.
Jalapena, don't I sound like my father. That's scary...
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Sunday, October 10, 1999 12:45:50 AM
IP: 207-172-52-89.s89.tnt1.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

**RP ALERT**

Tom, Mist, and Janice reach the top of the smallest of the three pyramids, the other Ravens keeping Phalanx drones from harrassing them. Just as Tom is preparing the unassimilation crystal, a Phalanx tentacle erupts from the pyramid and grabs for Janice's leg. She screams as it twines around her, nearly knocking the former FBI agent down. Mist quickly spins around and hisses at the tentacle, then ventilates it with a chaingun burst. "Thank you," Janice sighs in relief, nodding at the cat, who meows in reply. "Crystal's set!" Tom yells. "Let's get on to the next one." The other two nod and they jump back down to join the Ravens. "Good work, guys!" Kit yells their way, firing a rocket to blow away a group of Phalanx-assimilated humanoids moving in from the left. "Come on, we have two more of those to put down!" The team all nod and battle their way onwards.

Some distance away, the commander of the Egyptian army battalion salutes the stranger standing before him and smiles. "I will let you handle this, General," he says. "Your forces appear to have things well in hand. Call us if you need us. Let's turn around and withdraw for now, men!" Harthoth is barely able to keep himself from sighing in relief as the troops depart.

**END RP FIRST HALF**

Greetings. Sorry I haven't been able to post in here earlier in the week, those damned professors flooded me with tests and other work. I also had a five-page paper today that delayed things somewhat (and I have another next week, this is only the first half of a take-home exam. Ack!). Right now I'm just glad I finally have time to say a few words. <grin>

New Shows: The new ep of Batman Beyond this morning was great, though I was surprised Paxton Powers didn't play at least some role in it. Good Pokemon too. The season premiere of Buffy was also good, as was the one of Angel. I won't go into detail about them because pretty much everything I could say has already been said by SJ and Doug. Now and Again likewise had a good third episode last night, I look forward to seeing more of that show and another interesting and well-acted villain like Eggman was. I caught the premiere of Harsh Realm thanks to my VCR, and like SJ have high hopes for the show. It had good preformances by all the main characters, good plot and character development, exciting action and a great story too. Santiago's a good antagonist, but he needs some principal minions other than the generic grunts. Hope he gets some in upcoming eps. :) The only bad new show I've looked at so far this season is Roswell, which I agree with SJ and Skippy about. The only thing worst than alien-related angst is alien-related comedy (such as what can be seen in an awful show that has now thankfully ended production called 3rd Rock from the sun). I prefer aliens as mysterious and interesting heroes or fearsome villains, not boring teenagers with vapid personalities like the Backstreet Boys. If they wanted a show with teen alien protagonists, WB should have kept Invasion America. It had two of them (Sonya and David) and is superior to their new show Roswell in so many ways. <sighs> Why must c^&p like that get high ratings while great shows like IA are too quickly thrown off the air?

Christine: I have to thank you for something. A while ago you mentioned in here having read and enjoyed a murder mystery called Bimbos of the Death Sun. Yesterday I went to the bookstore, bought it, and have been reading it when I have the chance since. The novel is hilarious, and shows a very enjoyable (not to mention frighteningly realistic) view of gaming and sci-fi convention life. I definitely give it five/five stars, and I'm not yet half through with it. And to think I never would have known about this classic book if it wasn't for you! :)

Coyote: Thanks for the happy anniversary, and congrats on overcoming your latest illness. Same to all people who have recently been sick.

Traveler: You live? Then why aren't you posting? :) You probably have bad RL stuff too, right? <sighs> Hope you can come back soon, friend. Thanks for saying the little bit you have this week.

Pistoff: Thanks for the Vinnie series info, I'm looking forward to it too. Hope you can start writing it (and finish Injustice for All) soon. <grin>

Batya: You do plan to get back to them? Good, I'll be waiting. :) I agree with you about Xander being Key Guy.

Ironwolf: Doug and I are from Texas. Both born in Houston, and we've lived here much of our lives (practically all of it for me). We agree with you that good taste is often bred here (but not always, this is after all the birthplace of wackos like David Koresh and egotistical pretty boys like George W. Bush [the latter is a personal opinion]. We also have crazed racists like the jerks who drug that black man behind a truck a few years ago, and we're known as the most intolerant state when it comes to crime. What a place Texas is. <shakes head>).

Garg Cuts: These have always bothered me since I first heard about them. I don't like Disney messing with a classic show because they want it be politically correct more than anyone else here does (heck, I hate political correctness period!). Hope Princess Mononoke will succeed as a film and teach them a lesson about what the public wants. <fingers crossed>

Green Baron: The economics professor Doug and I have gives three things to us- boring lectures on economic principles, Scantron tests with too-easy questions, and experiments in which we are supposed to buy and sell imaginary goods to one another and thus learn about economics in action. The latter usually end up being more chaotic than beneficial. We never talk about the philosophy behind economics, or the reason things work the way they do. The textbook is also uninteresting. Overall, it's pretty much a loser of a class. :(

Harry Turtledove: I too have read his books and enjoyed them. Guns of the South was great historical science fiction and had an enjoyable plot combined with its well-written fights. I also really liked his World War series when I read them, he did a great job of combining magic with technology and creating a conflict where all sides had access to both. I hope to get Doug to read the series himself before he starts trying to write a similar war in his fics.

Wilek: <<But please don't take as long as Ryan Stout is with Stitch of Time 4! :)>> Heh...can't be as long as I've taken with my fifth fic. <looks at what he has so far> What's this stupid thing been now, three months?>> So far Ryan Stout has taken over two years. And there's no sign of him making any progress. <sighs> Keep up the good work on your fifth story, hope it gets done soon. Thanks for telling us about the upcoming Evil Dead game (I will definitely be buying and playing it!) and for the entertaining Hamster Based Technology link.

Kaioto: Thanks for posting the excellent remarks on parental upbringing vs. personal choices and the Atomic Bomb. Definite disertation(sp?) material in both of those posts, and I agree with every word. Hope that more people will learn the lessons you suggested in the years ahead. <kneels in prayer>

Jenna: Same to you for the post on destroying and rebuilding. I agree that we are doing way too much of the former and not enough of the latter these days. Violence and destruction should not be glamorized, IMO. They should be seen as an often good way to defend our families, values, interests, or what-have-you, but also as something with which people should be careful, because we all know what happens if they get too out-of-hand. A good way to stop that from happening in many cases, I think, might be for more people to read and pay attention to words like yours.

New Little Mermaid Movie: I agree with Robby, there's not much story left to tell. On the other hand, they could create new story elements like they did for the Lion King sequel and it could work. <shrugs> Only time will tell.

Deuce: I agree with you that drinking can too often ruin good parties. That's why Doug and I avoid it as much as possible (and will continue to even when we become of legal age). Congrats on getting out of that very worrisome event alive.

That's all for tonight. I didn't really say much, did I? <sighs> Guess that's my punishment for coming in late in the week. Oh well, at least I let everyone know I'm alive. :) No movie review this week because Doug and I didn't have time to go see one, and there weren't any good-looking movies. Hope there will be next week. Until I post again, good night!

**MORE RP...RIGHT NOW!**

The Ravens hack and shoot their way on to the second pyramid, to find it guarded by two misshapen and very poorly-drawn cartoon character drones. "Hey!" Gubio yells at them. "I know you guys! You're Karen and Kirby, those new hosts of the Big Cartoonie Show on WB!" The two drones nod. "Yes," Kirby says, "that is correct." Doug smiles. "You kids know what? Before you got on it, we actually enjoyed watching the Big Cartoonie Show! Now thanks to you it's one of the worst things on Saturday morning television! You add nothing to the show but deplorable commentary that is compeletely unnecessary and takes up valuable cartoon time!" Karen and Kirby glare angrily at the Ravens as they all nod in agreement. "You've insulted us!" Karen screams. "No one should be able to do that!" "Actually, we should and can," grins Jammer. "That is one purpose of fandom, after all." Tricia nods. "And you guys aren't the only problem with the BCS, either. There's also Elmyra, and that stupid little boy who does nothing but waste viewers' time telling vulgar and uninteresting tales." "You're right, Trish," agrees Shauna, pointing at another drone standing beside Karen and Kirby. "Hey, look, there he is!" The boy smiles and steps forward. "Okay," he begins, "so one time Billy's mom got constipated and..." Before he can complete the story, Kitainia raises her rocket launcher and blows him away. "Get them!" Karen shouts, realizing at last the Ravens are enemies who want to fight, not talk. She and Kirby transform parts of their bodies into weapons and charge the Ravens, only to have Doug and Boris kill them both with thrown grenades. "Phew," Jaden smiles. "Glad we got rid of those annoying jerks." "Yeah," Kit nods. "Come on, before they regroup. We have to get that next crystal placed."

**SCREEN FADES OUT, END RP**
Kitainia
Sunday, October 10, 1999 12:26:35 AM
IP: pool-207-205-148-43.dlls.grid.net

Robby> I know that you were not blaming teachers and I hope that I didn't sound harsh. I really didn't intend to if I did. I understand, accept and appreciate your comments and opinions *smiles* Of course I'm a little sensitive when the topic of teachers come up *winks* It has gotten bad enough with the politics and hands being tied along with the expectations that are impossible to achieve, I'm seriously considering finding another profession. I love the kids (I teach special education) but the rest of the nonesense is really reaching it's max with me.... *shakes head* and it's only October! 7 more LOONGGG months! eesh! Anyway, I'm sorry again if I sounded harsh or that I thought you were dishing teachers!

Pistoff> yes, the results of the bomb were horrid. Unfortunately that happens in war... innocent victims die or are scarred for life. It's a tragedy and should be reminders before another war is ever started.
Glad to have you back! I've missed you! *hugs*
Jannie
Saturday, October 9, 1999 11:52:42 PM
IP: 196-100.c.esc4.net

The Atomic Bomb:

We used a weapon that vaporized thousands of men, women, and children; soldiers, manufacturers, and those simply stuck living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not only did we vaporize people, but we left thousands more burned, slowly or quickly dying of agonizing radiation poisoning. We left orphaned children and maimed parents. Mothers held their dying children in their arms, their flesh burned, blistered and charred, listening to their final, feeble cries of pain before their life was snuffed out of the world. Mother and fathers cried over the corpses of their children and spouses before they themselves fell to the electro-magnetic poison in their systems.

We used it because they only other option next to capitulating a war too a bunch of vicious, tin-plated, aspiring conquerors of the world was a campaign of brutal, crippling conventional bombings and land invasions. For each one of those men, woman, and children would have been spared from the power of the split atom, dozens more would have been consumed in the fires of bombings and invasion. Civilian and soldier alike would’ve been maimed by explosion, riddled with bullets, or ripped apart in brutal hand to hand fighting. If the battles in the South Pacific over islands like Midway were any indicating of how the Japanese fought over Conquered territory, how ferociously would they defend their homes? House to house, town to town fighting would be common in any place that wasn’t leveled by air.

I would present to you that there are three main things that make us more squeamish about the Atom Bomb than other methods of mass murder necessary for winning this war. First, the method of destruction, the toll on the victims, so disgusting and devastatingly brutal, turns our stomach and makes us question the kind of world we live in where they can be done to human beings. Second, the bomb happened, the brutal invasion required without the bomb is only a fictional image we mostly try not to think about. Third, we have problems accepting the reality of modern warfare.

Do not blame the military of our country for killing civilians. That is modern war. The military dictators put their factories and armed forces stations in civilian population centers. They employ civilian workers to allow them to fight a war. It is a method of human shield. As well, conscription has created a military system that can not be stopped unless the civilian populations cease to create weapons and/or submit to a government that is fighting a war of conquest. You must either convince the populous to stop the war, or the leaders, or destroy their ability to fight by eliminating their military industrial complex.

Civilian populations under dictatorships are the support structure of the military. To win a war you must do one of three things: destroy the industrial complex, or destroy the leadership, or all the soldiers. The soldiers are impossible. The leaders require mass assassination. The industrial complex requires the destruction of weapon factories and the discouragement of civilian support. This last, viable action, however, has the consequence of killing civilians. The workers in factories, the citizens of the cities the military hides their factories of death within.

It is brutal. It is war. This is why we aren’t suppose to start wars. This is why it is such a tragedy when you have to stop an evil with such violence. The horror of war, however, does not make the evil people squeamish. If we shun the path to peace and permit brutality and dictatorship to sweep the world unchecked, we risk that this world we have will be plunged into darkness. A necessary evil IS an evil, none the less, but it is also necessary. So is life.

We want to learn these lessons, but we can not control the actions of others. We can deem it an evil, but we can not blame those pressed by such circumstances as conquest by a dictatorship when they chose the method they thought would save the most lives on both sides.

The bomb was horrifying. A land invasion might have even been more so. But the Truth of everything is that War, is the horror, not the weapons. Murder is the tragedy, not the gun. Suffering is the enemy, not the people.

We have to learn these lessons as a species. We have to stop celebrating murder, and instead morn the dead. We need to remember those who were brave enough to make sacrifices to save the lives and freedoms of others. The Bomb was nothing to be proud of, but is nothing to be ashame of for being an American or a soldier. We should be ashamed for being Human, capable of such a war and creating such weapons to kill.

Violence is a sad state of affairs.
Logistics is a nasty business.
War is hell.

Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Saturday, October 9, 1999 09:56:57 PM
IP: 1cust215.tnt1.brockton.ma.da.uu.net

Aye, its a pity teachers get blamed for everything... I never for a moment meant to blame any teachers if I came off that way, indeed its often been the teachers that were the only redeeming factor of the course. In all honesty, I blame the political corectness and the mass market appeal... For instance... Two years ago I had a history textbook that had 36 pages of Marilyn Monroe and about two paragraphs of George Washington. This same textbook also claimed the statue of Liberty was made out of rusted gold. Oii...
Robby
Saturday, October 9, 1999 09:32:50 PM
IP: spider-wa054.proxy.aol.com

Sorry I haven't been in here for a while, but I haven't had any time to post. I'll make a big post and reply to comments directed at me after the room is cleared, so I don't do a lot of writing and have it wiped out the next day. *g*

For now, I'll just throw in my two cents on the current topic.

Dropping the Bomb: Sure, it prevented a larger number of people from being killed...but here's my problem: Most of the people who were vaporized or left with their skin melting and eyeballs falling out were *civilians.* They weren't military targets, they weren't the ones shooting at us, they were people like us, going about their daily routines when suddenly a plane flew overhead and they got cooked off. Taking out a military target is what war is about--eliminating the enemy's ability to shoot at you. That's fine. But slaughtering civilians...that's just plain despicable. And when you consider the way certain people were treated just because they were Japanese (yet they were American citizens)...it just makes me angry. Innocent people were butchered because of something their government and military did. Civilians should not, under any circumstances, be chosen as military targets.

*sighs* Okay...now that I got that off my chest, I'll see if I can lighten up a bit, before I get depressed. Here's something to ponder--a headline from an Associated Press story, taken from the 365 Stupidest Things Ever Said....

REMAINS IDENTIFIED; POLICE BELIEVE VICTIM DIED

:O
Pistoff - [phred@koalas.com]
Saturday, October 9, 1999 09:22:48 PM
IP: wire-5.koalas.com

Zath> I agree with you! And you are absolutely correct - it depends on the teacher on how much she/he is willing to expand on subjects such as this and whether or not they are willing to take the heat when a parent calls the school board and complains. A good teacher knows how to work a lot of the information into conversation without getting caught ;)
My point about there MIGHT be someone in class that was related to a Japanese solider was that we have become so "politically correct" that we are restricted in what we are able to teach. Most teachers that I know teaches the true facts of history and tries to relay both sides. I have heard many teachers talk about the horror and injustice of what the US government did in their panic after the Pearl Harbor bombings to their own citizens just because of their heritage. I do understand your points and appreciate what you are saying! :)
Jannie
Saturday, October 9, 1999 09:15:15 PM
IP: 196-100.c.esc4.net

I just had an interesting thought: if you combined the lego castle/fright nights with Lego town sets, you could make your own lego evil dead/army of darkness set
shogun raptor
Saturday, October 9, 1999 09:01:37 PM
IP: mia1-wc1.atlas.digex.net

Wilek> <<If I ever get my printer working, I'll have a lot of pics to take to a place at the mall that puts them on T-shirts...>> There are actually kits where you can print directly onto iron-on papers. I got one for a present one year and never used it. Maybe I should dig it out of wherever it is some day. <<click my name. It all makes a terrible kind of sense now...>> This is connected to the Hamster Dance somehow. It just has to be...

Robby> <<When I got home I bought a copy of Barefoot Gen, and made sure every history class in the school saw it. (Or thats the theory anyway.)>> It's interesting how differently this subject is taught in different areas. In PA, we saw videos (taken right when it happened, not animation or reenactments) showing what life was like on all sides of the battles. One video showed exactly what the people looked like who weren't lucky enough to be killed instantly by the bomb. What everyone at first thought was baggy clothing was actually the children's skin falling off. We studied in detain what would have happened if the 2 bombs hadn't been dropped. On the other hand, when we covered the subject in TX, the teacher spent 15 minutes on the subject, and tried to make it sound like the US did Japan a favor by dropping those bombs and that no one of any importance was harmed. This latter view just made me sick. Personally, I believe dropping the bomb probably did keep a larger number of people from dying, but I don't think it should be glorified as the US's gift to humanity. Another interesting fact is that both of my schools tried to downplay/ignore how Japanese Americans were treated by their own government during this time period. **Sigh** I'm tired of "history" class being nothing but pro-US propaganda, editing out all the less than wonderful things this country has done over the years. If the teachers are going to pick apart and sometimes magnify all the flaws of other cultures, they should do the same to their own as well. It would feel more honest.

Jannie> <<we wouldn't want to say something because a student MIGHT have a relative who was in the war and fought for the Japanese.>> Do they also not say anything because a student MIGHT have a relative who was a legal citizen of the United States but was thrown into an internment camp just because they happened to have dark hair and asian eyes? <<teachers seem to get blamed for every woe and misdeed that happens nowadays>> I don't just blame teachers. I also blame the writers of the text books, the people in charge of deciding what is and isn't "fit" to be taught in classrooms, and anyone else who feels facts should be altered/left out because someone might get offended. Teachers are just the most visible part of the system, so people tend to give them most of the blame. I want to learn what *really* happened in a specific situation right down to the gritty and often unpleasant details, not some sanitized for mass consumption version designed to make people happy about living in America.

**Zath steps off the soap box**

Sorry if I irked anyone with this post, but these things have always been touchy subjects for me and I didn't feel like holding back.

Zath - [zath@rocketmail.com]
Saturday, October 9, 1999 08:39:35 PM
IP: ppp-227-068.usc.edu

RANT RANT RANT WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AUGH! I was writing to tis very cr room with some comments. And then I made a top ten. it was a difficult top ten to write because It composed of editing punctuation a lot. And as I press the 'send' button I was KICKED off by my dad! .....then I couldn't well re make the top ten this morning because we are working on the house...(still construction)....so I won't be able to make the top ten until Monday!

Thanks for listening to my small little rant.

Sarge.

Sarge Abernathy - [SargeMM@aol.com]
Barre, VT, USA
Saturday, October 9, 1999 08:20:55 PM
IP: spider-wi033.proxy.aol.com

Robby> I understand the point you were making. However, it is not the fault of the public education system that has created this - it's the people who have demanded that we in public teaching no teach such issues as to being sensitive. We are dictated and held to a tight rope on being politically correct... afterall, we wouldn't want to say something because a student MIGHT have a relative who was in the war and fought for the Japanese. I realize you meant it in a general text, but teachers seem to get blamed for every woe and misdeed that happens nowadays... if someone does something that is harsh or inappropriate, the public education system is blamed. We are so tied with what we can and cannot say, what we can or cannot teach, etc. All of these rules come from the state and local board of educations and they are generally influenced by the parents of the district or state. So, basically - it is the fault of the parents and "concerned citizens". The public education system in mandated by the public.... we follow their guidelines. Besides, many of us were educated by the public school systems and I personally have tried very hard to continue to be sensitive to what is going on in the world and still maintain a level of shock that is needed to keep this way.
Jannie
Saturday, October 9, 1999 08:17:07 PM
IP: 196-100.c.esc4.net

Okay, let me rephrase that some...

I have never once for a moment since thought that we were FULLY IN THE right to drop an atomic bomb. I'm well aware it was probably the only way to end it with a minimum of casualties. (Claiming we had a third bomb when we didn't was almost a mistake though...) But up until that point, I had believed that yep, we were totally justified and their was no sad cost to it, because basically, thats what all the textbooks and school videos say. (Indeed, all the points brought up are points I made in my essay about why we were right...) Anyhow, the previous post was supposed to be one about being desensitized as a nation. Part of that is the public education system...
Robby
Saturday, October 9, 1999 07:41:28 PM
IP: spider-tm043.proxy.aol.com

** Deuce walks in looking tired and sad. He shoves his sister's curling iron (on) up DC's butt. **

So anyway, I went to this party last night... it was supposed to be a birthday/going away party for Mel (y'all remember her, I think—she's moving to Louisiana... :-(...). Anyway, about 50 people showed up, and the night started off pretty fun: loud music, no parents, good time. Then out came the booze.

I'd have to say that within 45 minutes I was one of 6 people in the whole house who wasn't plastered out of their mind. There was beer, coolers, daquiris(sp?), vodka, rum... you name it, someone was drinking it. I got there at 7:00 and before 8:30 one girl had taken off her shirt, there was a couple having sex in the bathroom, and I had been propositioned by several girls and one guy. (Honestly. Yuck.) The music got progressively louder and worse, and more peopel were passing out on the dance floor. Things just went to hell. I managed to hide downstairs and kick Mel's computer into submission, where I spent much of the night looking for friends in various chat rooms and on AOL IM. After talking to a few people (who know who they are but don't know how much I owe them), I went upstairs to check on everyone. They had started to sober up, and everybody was crying about something or other. I know of two long-term relationships that died last night.

My question is this: what the hell gave these kids—and none of them were of legal drinking age, so they were kids—the idea that getting themselves piss-drunk would be conducive to a good time? More than half of them aren't going to remember any of this (good thing me and a couple other guys took pictures... >:-|), and it's a good thing: you would not believe what went on there. People who are normally only slightly strange went completely random after 6 or 7 coolers, and did things with other people's significant others that they wouldn't even do with their own.

For a while there, I was scared sh*tless. There was a very good chance I'd either get beat up, mauled, or stripped, and there were 1:1 odds I'd get liquor spilled on me. Try explaining THAT one to Mom add Dad, eh?

Anyway, sorry for ranting... I'd better get back to work. Talk to y'all later.

** leaves **
Deuce
Saturday, October 9, 1999 07:25:16 PM
IP: pppa109.connect.ab.ca

Robby, before you get totally sympathetic about the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the aftermath. remember, it was war and by it's very nature it's not playing by the Marques of Queensbury rules. Whole families were wiped out due to the bombings and the aftermath. I read several issues of the Barefoot Gen comic. It was very graphic. And while I do feel sorry that anyone had to got throught that sort of hell, I won't be politically correct and say I wish it had never happened. It did. It is something that must and should stand like the concentration camps as something that must never happen again.

I suggest you also read about the Bataan Death March, the "comfort" girls who were basically prostitutes for the Japanese solders and other things the Japanese did to China and anyone else who fell by the way. There are Koreans born and living in Japan who had not choice in the initial relocation and are third and four generation and still considered second class citizens.

The Japanese brought hell to many places in the pacific rim. In return they didn't suffer nearly as much and were lucky that there was no wholesale invasion of their land. After the war they had help in rebuilding and as a result they are indeed a stronger and even more unified country.

The problem with war is that the people who are really hurt are the helpless such a children. I fear were are still a good many generations away from a truly integrated world. And when we are, I hope that the lessons learned from the wars of this century are used as a lesson in things not to do.


Theresa
Saturday, October 9, 1999 06:58:52 PM
IP: proxy-343.public.rwc.webtv.net

*Vallentine walks in, leaning heavily on a cane and looking a bit pale*

Lordy be, what a way to start the weekend... I was up until one in the morning last night trying to throw together a GURPS adventure for a friend that was supposed to drop by today, and when I funally got to bed my brain was too keyed up for sleep. The sandman waited until three in the morning to show up, and then my dad woke me up at seven this morning to help him change the oil filter on our car. While we were getting ready to do that, my mom called the friend's parent's to see about him coming up, and his dad decided to postpone his visit till next week.
After I heard that, I went inside and tried to go back to sleep, but the stress made me leave my breakfast on my bedroom floor.

Not a fun way to start the day.

*Jacks into his terminal, and absorbs the last week's worth of posts*

Well, well, well... Intersesting topics abound...

Robby - As horrible as the nagisaki and hiroshima bombings were, they still don't hold a candle to the firebombings that preceded them. It's been a while since I read up on the stats of the raids, but the firebombing of tokyo erased a good portion of the city... and I'm pretty sure Tokyo was a heck of a lot bigger than either of the other two...

As to the justifacation of the bombings, it should be mentioned that the radical Japanese generals had already started handing out pointy sticks to the general populace, and that the American generals were gearing up for a war of extirmination. Projected losses for the invasion of Japan were three million Americans, and it is likely that Japanese losses would have been at least triple that. I seem to remember a quote from an American general to the effect that by the time he was done, the Japanese language would be spoken only in hell. aiaf it weren't for the bomb, there might not BE a Japan.

Duece - Grats on the one year anniversery! Haven't gotten a chance to read the whole speech, but I hop to on monday...

Sarge - Loved the "Drunk" song! Keep 'em coming...

*Valentine checks his watch*

Hmm... Looks like it's time to go... See y'all on monday, and here's to hopin' all of us sick people will be well by then...
Gunjack Valentine - [miphsingleton@hotmail.com]
dallas
Saturday, October 9, 1999 05:28:22 PM
IP: 205.165.166.140

Hello, all. Bruce Campbell/Evil Dead fans might like to check out my name link. ^_^
Wilek
Saturday, October 9, 1999 05:11:11 PM
IP: spaceproxy.com

Jenna> thanks =)

Robby> I certainly understand why you felt as you have since seeing the 'other side' of the story - you have great compassion and it's comforting to see that. However, we must not loose sight of why the bombing took place. We had the technology, yes... but also during that war, the Japanese were trained and determined to fight until death with no backing down. The decision was made to drop the bomb to end the incredible numbers of deaths that would have ocurred if we had stuck to the ground war. Far more numbers - on both sides - would have been killed if the war had been allowed to continue. IF Japan had been allowed to win, we could currently be under Japanese influence/empire... for those who would have been allowed to survive. During the war, the Japanese slaughtered many of the captured Americans because they considered anyone who was captured or surrendered as dogs, lowest form of life, a disgrace, etc. That was their culture and their way of thinking at the time. Writings have been discovered of their plans on what to do with americans here in the states when "they won the war" and they were not of compassion, I assure you.
It is good to have compassion and to remember that the solider or innocent victim in a war battle has a family too, they have love, they hate, they feel, they have dreams and ambitions just as you or I do - that is what keeps us a civilized nation. But sometimes, you just gotta' do what you have to do. Where would we have been now if none of the wars had ever been fought? I'm not a "whoop 'em up, kick their ass, and jump right into war" kind of person, but I do think that there are times that it can not be avoided. Yes, there are tragedies on both sides and we should always keep a sense of compassion when considering the need for a war. But, should we have dropped the bomb? IMO, yes.
Are we going to whoop it up and strut around like peacocks because we won that war? *nods* yep, it's human nature. But I don't for a moment think that it was done without a great emotional loss to many of our men fighting that war, because they too had compassion. No matter who wins the war, there are great losses on both sides and for all involved.
Jannie
Saturday, October 9, 1999 03:07:08 PM
IP: 196-058.c.esc4.net

Jannie- well, you took the words right out of my mouth. (and you were far more calm about it then I was -;) ) I suppose this is a topic that is ...well, way too close to home for me. If this artst really wanted to do a quaility piece he should not have opted to use children's toys. He may be trying to show irony, but he is in reality trivalizing the entire thing.

And to those who died, and survived, and lost loved ones and are going though it now-- I don't think genecide is very trivial.

There I go again, pardon me while I put the rant in low gear--back, jen, back.

But Jannie I think you nailed it. Thanks.

One thing that really disturbs me that is illustrates is the use of "sbock art". There are many talented artists in here, so what do you all think- is anything art ? To me, art should require effort, thought.

Some people have smashed cars together and called it art, I don't see it like that. Some times I wonder if this air of "sophesitcation" that some shock artists hide behind, is more of a smoke screen to hide there own lack of talent. Paint me or draw me a pic, then I'll call you an artist. But smash cars, pervert children's toys, put bodily extrements on paintings of deieties- then well, your not some one with a message, your looking to shock not to enlighten.

To me that is not art at all--
jenna
Saturday, October 9, 1999 02:12:11 PM
IP: ppp-209-184-83-43.hstntx.swbell.net

Holocaust- All of this talk about desensitizing has brought forth memories of Hiroshima for me... Back in oh, 8th grade, we were assigned an essay on the subject of "Were Americans right to drop the bomb"? My essay's answer was a resounding "Yes", as it saved lives in the long run and ended the war. That summer, on my annual visit to my cousin Bryan, he introduced me to an anime video titled "Barefoot Gen". Basically it was a movie that showed the OTHER side's point of view. Here we're so bombarded with slogans of "We were right to do what we did" and textbooks glorifying this, that when I saw Barefoot Gen, I cried, and changed my opinion completely around. I have never once for a moment since thought we were right to drop an atomic bomb... Basically what I'm trying to say is, we ARE being desensitized because we as a society try to cover up what we don't like to think about. Its sad really. When I got home I bought a copy of Barefoot Gen, and made sure every history class in the school saw it. (Or thats the theory anyway.) Hopefully, it made a difference...

By the by, Barefoor Gen is DEFINATLEY worth seeing if you can find it. Its not exactly a thrill ride, but its not meant to be...
Robby
Saturday, October 9, 1999 02:02:25 PM
IP: spider-wb023.proxy.aol.com

Jenna> touche' I agree 300% with you. We have become a society of being desensitized and swinging so far to be "politically correct" that sometimes people loose their perspective and sensitivity. I see such a rapid decrease in just plain ol' respect, that it sickens me sometimes. If someone doesn't believe the same as you do, that's fine - but show some common courtesy, good manners and respect for others. It really doesn't take that much. I won't try to impose my beliefs on anyone - (I am entitled to state my opinions and beliefs, but not force them or expect everyone else to abide by them.) But, if someone has a different belief, then I will respect that and not insult them or what they believe in. Like I said, it boils down to having little respect.
BTW, have you been to the Holocust museum in Houston? Brought tears to my eyes..... we should never forget nor never become desensitize to such horror.
Jannie
Saturday, October 9, 1999 01:05:35 PM
IP: 196-058.c.esc4.net

read my post and realized I forgot one thing.

Remember that these millions of people were people too. Sometimes we get so lost in the numbers we loose sight of the people. I think it's most important to remeber the humanity of people who died or survived through anytype of genecide. The best way I have seen this ever portrayed is through the holocost museum in DC. When it opened, I remeber seeing the photo shoot that the post did, that's where I saw the piles of personal items. That really got to me, more than anything. Esp. the photos and shoes. It drives home that every one of those who died had family, and hopes and dreams like me. And it shows how they had there humanity stolen from them in such a systematic manner as the nazis did.

The nazis saw the people pretty much as legos, as animals, as stick figures. Once you see someone as less than human, it makes it easier to do terrible things to them.

i think we should talk about the holocost. But we should also talk about those who did die as people, not as pieces of meat or numbers. Only when we see the humanity of the victims, does the horrible awefulness of genecide hit home. They were more than legos, they were flesh and blood. Not animals, but children of God.

That's it-- I'm done.
jenna
Saturday, October 9, 1999 11:54:50 AM
IP: ppp-209-184-83-117.hstntx.swbell.net

hmmm- sorry, I'm still of the opinion that I dislike this legos stuff- I just don't think some thing like that should be talked with in legos-- I think it;s innaproriate. If you want to show the horror of what happened, and what is happening, go with photos and personal accounts. Or show the piles and pile of shoes, and photos, and teeth, and other personal items that were found at the camps. These are items that were taken from people who were killed.

This is a very, hot subject with me. I know people who are the only surviors of there entire family. And they were the lucky ones. I am all for talking about these atrocities. But I look at those damned lego sets and I think, what if my brother, or father was one of those who are supposed to be represented. It chills me, because this artist is taking the humanity out of the victims. And when we take out the humanity, it makes it easier to allow things like this to happen again, weather we do it in the name of art or country, or god or political correctness.

Some will call me self rightous, but this reminds me of someone trying to show the sacredness of God by putting fecies on a picture of Jesus, and watching how people react. It's insensitive.

That's all I'm going to say about this damned "art" piece.




jenna
Saturday, October 9, 1999 11:36:41 AM
IP: ppp-209-184-83-117.hstntx.swbell.net

Today, I saw something from a nightmare. Something forged in the pits of Hell itself. Something that could make even the strongest gargoyle's very existence vomit forth from his nose onto the ground before him. Something that simply should not be. Friends, I have seen evil, I have seen horror, I have seen the unholy maggots which feast in the depths of the human soul, but until now, I had never seen...Jar Jar's Journeys. <dramatic music> It's this new computer game/animated storybook, and it is a hideous perversion of all that is Star Wars. <shudder> I'm OK now, but it took me quite a while to stop roaring and clawing at my eyes. We have to kill this thing, this creature, this blight upon the Gungan race, this lone amphibian of the Apocalypse, before it can claim our children, before it can drag us into whatever Hell it has constructed for all who truly love Star Wars. $(Jespe from the RP made me add the 'blight upon the Gungan race' bit. He knows upward of 50 different ways to kill someone just with that machete he carries around, so I'm inclined to follow his suggestions.)$

TJ Veil> <<How many other people here will not recieve the WB now that it has dropped WGN (if you got it before)? And what area do you live in?>> I won't, and I live in the upper Midwest. :/

Jessie Feff> <<Gad, how can I last until November? SLEEPY HOLLOW, DOGMA, and MONONOKE...three movies I have been waiting almost a year for.>> Ah, Sleepy Hollow...I am gonna love this. Not only is it a marvellously sick little tale all by itself, but...it's directed by Tim Burton, no? So there's a fair chance that Danny Elfman will be doing the music, which itself will make the movie worth seeing. Oh, and isn't Christina Ricci going to be in it? ^_^

Jenna> <<about finding gargs on Genesis-- look on ebay, under games, and also on the link I have here. It's too a company called Funco.com- all they do is sell used games and such, and they have a huge selection, and very good quality. I got my gargoyles game there for the Sega. They also sell the older game players like Sega, Nintendo, ect. to contact them. They may have what your looking for.>> Thanks! :D Oh, and wonderfully written commentary. :) And you needn't worry too much about spelling my name wrong, it's not that big a deal. :)

Deuce> Trephination> Extremely kewl song. ^_^ <<The scariest thing: I didn't have to use a dictionary to spell trephination>> You neither? ;) <<C'mon here: the Jews are the skeletons from the Castle sets! The freakin' SKELETONS! It's not just shocking, it's insensitive.>> Ugh, I noticed that. Somehow, it's what does more than anything to push this whole thing right over the edge of good taste (as if it weren't already way outside that edge). Thing is, I like the skeleton figures, but not when they're used like *this*. <shudder>

Mandolin> <<I've got to say that one of the most vocal organizations on this campus is TEA (Tolerance, Education, Acceptance). Why? At 10 pm, they're sponsoring Hood's first annual "drag ball.">> O_o' If you see a guy there with red hair and an English accent, ask him about recombinant DNA theory. :P j/k

Coyote> <<Hey, that dearth of Garg merchandise leaves us with only one option, one I've taken on numerous occasions...MAKE YER OWN!>> Hee hee hee--I came to a similar conclusion a while back. :D If I ever get my printer working, I'll have a lot of pics to take to a place at the mall that puts them on T-shirts...

SJ> <<especially the love triangle between Anita and the vampire who has the hots for her....and the werewolf who has the hots for her>> O_O <LOL> Oh, does this sound fun! I HAVE to check this out! :D

Oh, and click my name. It all makes a terrible kind of sense now...
Wilek Nereus
Saturday, October 9, 1999 04:30:48 AM
IP: spaceproxy.com

Greetings all...

Some good news! The missus and I went out car shopping, and, while we didn't get the first one we liked, we did get a nice '88 Ford Aerostar minivan that fit what we needed. :)

Now, I just need to put my Garg-Power vinyl decal on one of the windows... Bando! How do you make this think work, eh?

Will have more to say later! :)
Stephen R. Sobotka, Jr. - [scififangargoyle@yahoo.com]
Spokane, WA, USA
Saturday, October 9, 1999 03:35:09 AM
IP: m176.ieway.com

Legos > have the Lego people landed on this guy with both feet yet? I recall reading something SJ had posted about a fellow who built Lego Hell or something like that, and he got in plenty of hot water for it.

Book stuff > spoke too soon; rejection letter waiting in the mail today :P

Christine - [vecna@eskimo.com]
Saturday, October 9, 1999 01:11:51 AM
IP: dial18.b2.tnt5.wa.freei.net

Heeeellllooo... I just went hunting for midis and since the old Garg theme I had didn't work, I hunted for that, and found a VERY cool version of it! Unfortunatley, a direct link won't work, so ya have to just go to the site... Its a VERY cool rendition... Just clickie my name or if that doesn't work use the addy below...
http://www.ifrance.com/Simbatoad/animes.htm


Robby the CR DJ
Saturday, October 9, 1999 01:09:37 AM
IP: spider-we071.proxy.aol.com

CrzyDemona> ["Deuce, you seem to think Canada is immune to the troubles of the rest of the world."] No... but it's a hell of a lot nicer than other places in the world. No psychotic genocidal leader, no civil war, no famine, very little poverty... "Wake up"? No. Canada is a part of the world, but we have very little in the ways of the world's problems.

And I'd say more but I'm scared I'd totally tell you off. Basically, Crzy, you've got me pegged wrong. Now I"m going to go hide in a corner and wait for my mom to come pick me up. Good night.
Deuce
Saturday, October 9, 1999 12:40:26 AM
IP: dialin023.connect.ab.ca

Our Homecoming game was a loss of 21 to 28, and it's no big surprise. This was probably one of the longest days of my life. It never ended! Had to be at school at 6:30 am, took a lot of freakin' tests, had to haul four Homecoming mums around, had a parade where I got dehydrated, had a band run- through of the show, and ended with the game. I think sleeping is my second favorite thing to do, and I'm all for it right now. First is a tie between dancing and chatting with you wonderful friends. *weak hugs*

Deuce> I have the CD of my ex's band, but I have no clue how to download and send anything like that. When I get a scanner very soon, I'll probably get my genius neighbor to do it all at once with pictures and music.

Wilek> Thanks!
SOROW
Saturday, October 9, 1999 12:37:30 AM
IP: dll2b112-22.splitrock.net

Spent a large part of today writing and drawing and playign Dragon Force. Saw a hilarious new Pokemon episode. Have spent good deal of time with Heather. Good day all in all.

Hmm, not much to say, its pretty much one topic today and I don't care to talk about the holocaust legos... Those poor legos went through a terrible tragedy, just leave them alone! Oh wait, its a different subject entirely...

Little Mermaid 2- I liked the original, and lets face it, if it weren't for that movie, Disney might just be out of the animation buisness today. It just irks me that they're making a sequal! I mean, whats left to tell?

Of coruse, the Hercules video "Zero to Hero" advertized as all new adventure was just a compilation of three television episodes... At least one of them was "The Mysterious Avenger", an ep written by Greg Weisman. I don't know about the other two though...

Midsummer's Night Dream- Considering I still know all the lines from it from when I had to play Puck... I'm kinda biased about the story now... By the way Scott, I *also* got smacked in the back of the head by Oberon... Which is odd cause its not really in the script... Neat coincy dink eh? (Or maybe I was just THAT annoying...)

Jessie Feff- Princess Mononoke's nationwide release is October 29. But since Disney is being a bunch of dumb***** about it and clearly don't thing a PG-13 movie is going to make it, they don't seem to be advertising any, and its onyl going to be released in X ammount of theaters, not nearly the treatment it should get. **Sigh** I suppose if it does at all wel, THEN the idiots will make it a real release...

Oh yeah...
21 DAYS UNTIL THE THEATRICAL RELEASE OF PRINCESS MONONOKE!

Robby
Friday, October 8, 1999 10:52:32 PM
IP: spider-we011.proxy.aol.com

A few comments. Hopefully a RP tomorrow.

Lord of the Rings News!!!
The exciting news is that production on the films begins MONDAY!!! Pre-production is over, now on to the real stuff! Plus, more casting announcements have been made. The following people are now cast in the following roles:
The lovely CATE BLANCHETT as Galadriel
KEVIN CONWAY as Theoden
BRAD DOURIF as Grima Wormtongue
and ANDY SERKIS as the voice of Golem.
I'm fairly pleased with these casting decisions. Serkis is essentially an unknown this side of the Atlantic, and Conway is a veteran actor (note to Skippy--he played Kahless in TNG!). And you can't go wrong with Cate Blanchett!! But I'm perhaps most excited with the casting of Brad Douriff. I would have been more pleased with the initial rumored casting of Jeffrey Combs in this part, but Brad is a fine actor, one that is regrettable underappreciated and often type-cast. If you don't believe he's a capable actor, check him out in the classic "One Flew Over a Cuckoo's Nest", or even the wonderful Babylon 5 episode "Passing Through Gethsemane"....or if you want to see him in some low-rent stuff, he played Chucky in the Child's Play films....

Nazi Legos: Okay, some of you don't understand what I'm trying to say with this, and you've totally misunderstood my initial comments. I don't mind if the guy wants to bring attention to a horrible moment in history with the intent of burning into our cerebral cortexs that all important message of "Never Again". Okay, got you there. I have no problem talking about the Holocaust; it is a dark point in our existence as a species, true, but we cannot ignore it, for that old addage of those who do not remember the past live to repeat it is frighteningly true. Modern day neo nazi movements that have the testicular fortitude to claim the Holocaust never happened are proof of that. I vehemently disagree with this man's methods of getting his message across. "Shock" is not the best way in which to enlighten the masses of such a heavy subject, no matter how dense he conceives the masses to be.
Come on. He builds concentration camps out of legos. He built JEWISH SKELETONS in little plastic cells guarded by the Gestapo. And he calls it art, and he can hide behind his "art", no matter that the level of bad taste he implements is staggering, because his "art" has a message. Yes, the Holocause was horrible, and we should remember it for that. Should we have to be reminded of that through the aid of children's toys twisted into deathheads? The harsh bigotry and racism centered towards African-Americans, today and yesterday, is a horrible thing to, you don't see me building a lynch mob scene with G.I.Joes do you? Hey, maybe I can scrounge up some Rugrats toys, and put together a nice little diorama of Hasidic tots being led to the ovens. This guy's work is FU!!ED UP, "art" or not. That's my point. You want to educate us on the Holocaust, try something a little less offensive. If I was Jewish, I'd be *really* pissed. I don't know, maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm "sensitive" or some crap like that.

Ironwolf: I too am a fan of the Anita Blake series, written by Laurell K. Hamilton. I've greatly enjoyed the series; it's got good action, nice characterization (especially the love triangle between Anita and the vampire who has the hots for her....and the werewolf who has the hots for her...), some dark humor in there....Overall, a fun, nicely done set of books. I have most of them, and I'd recommend them to everybody.

***HARSH REALM***
Caught the premiere of Harsh Realm tonight. I'm not too sure....I liked it better than Millennium, but it lacks what X-Files initially had...still, it was interesting, I suppose. I think the virtuall reality bit has been done better in the Matrix (with which this show has been compared), but there seems to be enough intrigue and conflict to carry the show. I was pleased to see the always enjoyable D.B. Sweeney in a starring role, as well as the lovely Samantha Mathis and Millennium regular Terry O'Quinn. It was fun to see cameos by Lance Henriksen and Gillian Anderson (well, her voice anyway) also. I didn't think it quite lived up to the hype that has surrounded it, but it's certainly interesting enough for me to give it a second look.
****END HARSH REALM REVIEW***

Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Friday, October 8, 1999 10:02:58 PM
IP: 207-172-53-11.s11.tnt4.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com

**enters glumly, switching out the candles and flopping down in the massage chair**

**sigh** I hate when life seems to gang up on me ... I have a cold, I'm working crappy hours, and on top of everything else the transmission in the Caddy decided to go on strike. It's back in the shop again, and I'm back to bumming rides ... *again* ... until I can get it fixed. :(

**heavy sigh** Oh well, maybe some replies can get my mood back up ... then again, considering the recent subject matter ...

Concentration Camp Lego Sets: I'm leaning in the direction of Patrick and Crzy's viewpoint, that the artist isn't trying to poke fun at anyone with the Lego sets. I actually find his choice of skeletons to portray the Jews as quite fitting, since by the time those who had survived were liberated from the camps, skeletons were pretty much all they were due to starvation and disease. It's shocking, true, but look at the other works the artist is undertaking which involve toys (mentioned in the LA Times article), and you'll see that this is pretty much keeping in tune with his body of work.
Incidentally, the Lego company *is* in Denmark, *but* Denmark, while not mentioned a lot in WWII texts, was under Nazi control during the war ... or at the very least, they were isolated from anything *but* the Nazis by their location on the European continent. (Not entirely sure about it being controlled by Germany, if anyone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me.)
Folks, I'll take it one step further ... while I wouldn't take it quite as far as this artist, if there was some sort of product aimed at children that served to educate them about anything in history, I would buy it. Because we can't put our children in ivory towers forever ... true, the Holocaust was a horrible episode in the history of the world, but as a great philosopher said, *if we forget our past, we are doomed to forever repeat it.* 'Tis obvious that nations such as Bosnia and Somalia *have* forgotten the lessons that the rise and fall of Nazi Germany taught the world.
And don't think I'm being insensitive, either ... on the contrary, I find the Holocaust to be appalling, especially considering that I have a Jewish half-brother.

Wilek: Hey, that dearth of Garg merchandise leaves us with only one option, one I've taken on numerous occasions ...
MAKE YER OWN! As folks can attest who've seen my airbrushed shirt, as you all can attest by the way I've been talking about my car, I definitely take this option every time. :)

Jannie, re: link: Sick and wrong ... sick ... and ... wrong!! We've got a town here in Michigan that holds huge Bavarian-themed festivals (Frankenmuth, which I sometimes think was transplanted, soil and all, direct from southern Germany), but *they* never put something like *THAT* in their newspaper ads!!!

**shudders**

Oh, and for those who've been trying to figure out the song lyrics I've been leaving in place of a location this week ... put them together in chronological order and you get the refrain to the Michigan State fight song. Tomorrow's the big game with Michigan ... it's probably the highest-profile this game has *ever* been in my lifetime (both teams are undefeated and within the top 15 in the polls, and pretty much the winner's going to be *guaranteed* a New Year's Day bowl game). Even though I work tomorrow, I'm taping the game ... don't NOBODY tell me how it comes out until I watch it!! :)

**sits back in the massage chair, fixating on the candle ... which this evening is green and white.**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
"Victory for MSU!"
Friday, October 8, 1999 09:27:35 PM
IP: modem15.i-is.com

Jannie - ::BUSTING UP!:: The other OTHER white meat!
CrzyDemona
Friday, October 8, 1999 08:19:38 PM
IP: 209.150.94.67

*waves* hi all!
busy busy room!! *looks at her piccie choice* who's Asrial? i guess I'll find out!!

Valentine< thanks :) I asked my mom about that and she couldn't remember either.

Kaioto< awesome essay!!!!

Green Baron< we do have a library that Lexy could go to but its still about 2 miles away from her house, and she can only go on for a half hour... so she is better off coming to my house which is another 4 blocks away. then she can stay on for as long as she wants, and then she can talk to ppl on ICQ too.

Little Mermaid 2< *gags* help!!!!! my little sisters would be in Seventh Heaven, but help me god!! I hated that movie....

T.J.< I"m not totally sure what you meant, but I still watch the WB, but I don't pay for it either :)

Deuce< the world is going to hell?? man, it went a long time ago!!! it went when they legalized abortion and took prayer out of schools, and even more when Clinton came to presidency. sorry, just my opinion that is.

gotta go! bye everybody!
cherry blossom - [Chryblsm15@aol.com]
WI, US of A
Friday, October 8, 1999 08:15:49 PM
IP: 98afc952.ipt.aol.com

Hi. I'm back.
Denmark, huh? I remember reading somewhere that the big Lego factory was in Germany. Or at least that A big Lego factory was in Germany.

When I saw Wilek's link, that's what came into my mind. I figured the guy was trying to make a statement, something along the lines of using a cute, harmless, loveable product from Germany to cry out against the Holocaust (Or at least rub salt in the wounds).

I'm also willing to consider the idea that he was just trying to be shocking and objectionable. Some people who lack the talent and vision for real, valid artistic expression settle for being crass instead. Then they try to tell anybody who takes offense that they're just misunderstood, or that their detractors are trying to take away their freedom of expression.

I think that's enough ranting for one evening, especially since I'm getting away from my main point.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Friday, October 8, 1999 08:06:53 PM
IP: pppa42-fortworth7-1r234.saturn.bbn.com

Denis> umm sorry hon.. typo.. I didn't "chunk" after hugging you.. hehehe... I meant chuckLing ;)
Jannie
Friday, October 8, 1999 08:01:07 PM
IP: 196-067.c.esc4.net

click on my name to see an ad that appeared in our local newspaper... *blinks* Does it appear to look like to you what it does to me, or is my mind way down in the gutter yet again? ;) *coughs* why yes, we grow EVERYTHING big in Texas and so damn proud of it, we have a festival in it's honor and mount them on sticks.... *snickers* That lady sure has a really BIG smile on her face!! *g*
*hugs her Denis and walks out chucking*
Jannie
Friday, October 8, 1999 07:59:32 PM
IP: 196-067.c.esc4.net

Patrick - AMEN BROTHER! I totally agree. I think all of you need to go back and read the WHOLE article. (really there are more than just pictures on the page... HONEST!) I perhaps don't agree with it... but this isn't just some skin head bashing on Jewish people. Don't be cattle, my friends... have your own minds and make your own decisions and do your own research before coming to a conclusion.

Deuce, you seem to think Canada is immune to the troubles of the rest of the world. Perhaps you and your way of thinking is why this man chose to make such shocking subjects his life. Shake us up and wake us up a little to the real world. We all live on this planet. We are all one race... one people... until we understand that... there will never be peace.
CrzyDemona
Friday, October 8, 1999 07:43:49 PM
IP: 209.150.94.67

Patrick> My biggest problem isn't that this guy "dares" to discuss the Holocaust, it's that he trivializing it by lowering it to the level of an "AquaShark Undersea Base". C'mon here: the Jews are the skeletons from the Castle sets! The freakin' SKELETONS! It's not just shocking, it's insensitive.

Did anyone lampoon Spielberg for Schindler's List? Bengini for Life Is Beautiful? I don't mind being reminded of horrors; it makes me thankful that I live in Canada where stuff like that is far, far away. But this guy is mocking one of the most disgusting and horrifying eras in human history and calling it "art". And that's what pisses me off.
Deuce
Friday, October 8, 1999 07:09:58 PM
IP: spaceproxy.com

My 2 cents on the Legos issue...

First, Legos were invented in Denmark. Whoever said it's a German company is mistaken.

Second, how many of you posting how "shocked, shocked!" you are actually took a moment or two to scroll down and read the article that accompanied the photos?

Seems to me that the artist who created these works has already suceeded in making his point. Modern society preaches the slogan "Never Forget / Never Again," yet at the same time it seemingly can't stand it when someone dares bring the topic up. "How dare you challenge me to think... how dare you remind me that the world has not always been perfect like it is right now" - those kind of reactions pervade, often with a healthy does of righteous indignation heaped on top.

We find it comforting to our own sense of modern, politically correct values to look back on WWII and the Holocaust and dismissively say "Yes, that was terrible, but it could surely never happen again." Yet the same kind of things are happening right now, in places like Bosnia. (Can you say "ethnic cleansing," boys and girls? I knew you could...)

So if the glaring contrast created when an until-now unknown Polish artist renders a tragic episode of history in child's building blocks can keep people thinking and talking, I'm all for it. The minute we brush any piece of history aside and refuse to discuss it because we find the topic too abhorent for our 21st century sensibilities (yes, that's sarcasm), we're doomed to repeat it.

:: end editorial ::
Patrick Toman
Friday, October 8, 1999 06:53:13 PM
IP: abd0c89f.ipt.aol.com

I've stopped posting with my e-mail addy temporarily... the spam is starting to annoy me...

David G> <<I'm probably going to regret saying this, but I have a comment about the Concentration Camp legos: Did it strike anyone but me as just a bit significant that the guy who made them was Polish, and Legos is a German company? >> Yeah, I thought about that too... and frankly, as a result I really don't know what to make of this. It's just the fact that the maker is using Legos to depict something like the Holocaust, which really lends a sick irony to it. *sigh* I don't know. I just do not know.

Selling fetuses> I'm not sure about this either. I don't like the idea of SELLING fetuses, period. There should not be a market for that. I understand the aim of medical research, of course, but making a market out of that just sickens me. Of course, I have no alternative options for how to deal with that, but...

Now to get to some more light-hearted stuff.

Real tired today. I'm committing myself to doing something productive for the next three hours (either homework or TGS) then N&A is on at 9, and at 10 pm... well, I've got to say that one of the most vocal organizations on this campus is TEA (Tolerance, Education, Acceptance). Why? At 10 pm, they're sponsoring Hood's first annual "drag ball." I'm going as a strict spectator, but I'm bringing my camera... rumor is that some of the guys from IT are participating. Blackmail material is always useful. :)

And just because I know there are a couple people who watch the show in here...

**N&A SPOILERS/RUMORS!**

Just got some info on the October 22nd ep, although I can't verify it quite yet:

"Like a Good Neighbor" -- When Michael discovers that Lisa had to put their house up for sale for financial reasons, he convinces Theo to let him become his old nemesis' assistant. Chad Lowe guest stars as Craig Spence, Michael's former apprentice, who took the promotion that belonged to Michael. When Theo realizes that Michael will never accept his new life if he is constantly consumed with his family's well-being, he agrees to let Michael infiltrate his old insurance company and squeeze the money out of Spence.

Still surprised that Morris is actually letting him get away with this... but if it's true, who else would love to see it? :)

**END SPOILERS!**

Deuce> What an absolutely lovely anniversary page... *sigh* Maybe I should show Dave that to torture him (just kidding). Seriously, happy anniversary to both of you.

Midwest Gathering> I could deal with that... and you know, since so many Gargs fans are also Buffy fans, Cleveland would have a special significance. :)

*thuds head on desk* Okay. Got to wake up and work a bit...
Mandolin
Friday, October 8, 1999 06:06:36 PM
IP: 144.175.18.15

I'm probably going to regret saying this, but I have a comment about the Concentration Camp legos: Did it strike anyone but me as just a bit significant that the guy who made them was Polish, and Legos is a German company?

Ironwolf> I noticed the same thing about Doyle. I wonder if the series writers did? (I hope so)
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Friday, October 8, 1999 04:12:18 PM
IP: 198.215.20.3

I really need to stop posting at work. If I don't proof read I sound like Jar Jar Binks eck.
Ironwolf
Friday, October 8, 1999 03:15:59 PM
IP: host-216-78-82-173.cha.bellsouth.net

WB I kind of lucky in that a station is picking up some show and airing them late at night, but wb kids is gone for good in my area. I still get to see buffy and angel just at weird times angel came on last night
Spoilers I guess though I think everyone saw b and a by now**
Really like angel; good music nice action. I like that the bad guy was so used to protecting himself from justice and had such a corp mind set that he forgot about good old fashion violence. Now who wants to see spike and drue? Sorry I really like spike yea he is a blood sucking parasite form hell, but he loves drue so mabey it is the romantic in me but I can’t really hate a guy that can love as totally as he dose.
Buffy at first I didn’t like it because she was starting all over. She was going through the I am not good enough stage like the beginning of the show. Then I realized that 1 her boyfriend left her 2 moved to a new location 3insecure about the rest of her life because of 1 and 2 . So her going through a little self doubt and getting her but kicked made sense.

Ps did any one noticing something familiar about angels side kick?
1 half demon
2 sees future
3 human mother
here is a hint if he starts talking about a sword Angel need to bite him
End of spoilers

Speaking of vampires laurell hamilton has a series of books out. Anita Blake vampire slayer is the series and Guilty Pleasures is the first book. They are really good a horror/detective/romance kind of story.

Disturbing stuff> selling fetuses. Well all I can say is Parkinson’s disease(yea I misspelled it sorry all you medical guy and gals) fetal research is leading to a cure for this. Even though I personally think abortion is wrong I am a guy and so I have no right to tell a women if she can or can’t have one. That is her decision not mine. so if it is going to happen then at least some good should come out of such a sad situation.

ironwolf
Friday, October 8, 1999 02:43:18 PM
IP: host-216-78-82-173.cha.bellsouth.net

Good Afternoon(At least it is here)

I don't want to start up a real debate about this but about the mail order fetus issue I must say that there is a reason why this type of industry exists.
As a university student(Currently working towards my p.h.d. and I am still looking towards the medical field when I am finished.) we do a large amount of research that requires live, dead, or preserved tissue. I won't get into the details by when we need the stuff we just call up to the biotech company and say that we need X amount of Y delivered by tomorrow or two months of work will go down the tube because the bacterial culture was not transferred to the proper medium at the right time.
These companies are not there to provide these things to the general public and I would be quite surprised if it were possible for a normal person to just purchase one of these things. Normally there is an excessive amount of work involved with the first order that you send to a biotech company. In canada they check to see if you are currently working for a university, doing research for a private company or are doing legitamate research with private funding. If you don't fall into one of these catagories, good luck because they take precidence. A normal citizen would normally not be permitted a shipment of human body parts, biohazard level 3-4 deseases or some chemicals that are restricted. After the first shipment it gets easy because they know who you are and will only ship it to the same address without another check.
The human fetus is probably for research companies and medical schools. What type of research needs these items you might ask. embryology, microbiology, biochemistry, neurology, genetics, kinesiology, molecular biology and lets not forget the medical fields that use the samples.
As distressing as this may be to some people these products are generally for research and not for the general public. Someone may get their hands on the material but that is not who it is intended for.
These companies provide samples for universities across North America and sometimes around the world. They do alot of work that nobody else wants to do. How many prople would like to euthanize 1000 cats and then fill their circulatory systems with latex so that students can learn anatomy from them, and don't start with the computer simulation. I've tried both, the computer is a great guide for a dissection but it can't compare to the tactile feel of the specimne. Without a real dissection I would never know the difference between connective tissue and muscle tissue except for a visual image and a description of the tactile difference. It's just not the same. It may not be pretty but these businesses serve a purpose in the research field. I do not condone the sale of these tissues if they are for a private citizen to have in his closet, but if they are for research then I support it.
Yggdrasil - [gperry@iprimus.ca]
Ontario, Canada
Friday, October 8, 1999 01:44:36 PM
IP: dialin18.kitchener.globalserve.net

Lego concentration camp: Oh, God... what the f*ck is wrong with these people? WHY IS THE WHOLE FRIGGING WORLD GOING TO HELL?!?!?

Many thanks to all those who wished Catherine and me a happy anniversary. It was, and the present I got was fantastic. *holds a sheet of poems* Believe me, the whole library thought I was insane when I broke down crying at 8:00 in the morning. :-)

Wilek> Click my name for the lyrics to "Trephination". Yes, it's a primitive form of brain surgery, but in context it refers to drilling a hole in the skull to relieve pressure on the brain. A warning to ye: it's a VERY sick song. (The scariest thing: I didn't have to use a dictionary to spell trephination.) ["And there are no decent Gargs T-shirts either."] My little brother won a Gargoyles T-shirt from Fox network several years ago, the lucky little rat. :-) It doesn't fit me at all, sadly.

That reminds me: I went to the store the other day to buy a Pokémon shirt. NONE OF THEM FIT ME! With the popularity of the show amoung 13-19 year olds as well as 6-11 year olds, I don't see why they dont make them in XXXXL (even the XLs were very tight, and I'm not a big person).

SOROW> *hugs* I'm glad you had such a good time at the show. Could you hook me up with some RealAudio files of the band's stuff? They sound pretty damn neat.

G2001 in California: Bob and I are planning a road trip for Summer '01; we're going to Detroit, Iowa (YES!!!), New York, and Washington DC among other places... maybe we could make a stop.

I've gotta go now... TTYL.
Deuce - [bipolar@curtain.cjb.net]
Friday, October 8, 1999 01:25:32 PM
IP: spaceproxy.com

Jenna: *simply bows deeply* Profound.
Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Friday, October 8, 1999 01:25:21 PM
IP: 141.133.123.131

Wilek, Wilek, Wilek-- there I got the spelling right, finally--

May make a more personal post later..

jenna
Friday, October 8, 1999 12:40:38 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

BTW- Weleik (forgive my spelling) I just did a search on Funco and they have the Gargoyles game for the Genesis for $4.99 !!!!

Hope my ramble below was not too preachy for some people..
jenna
Friday, October 8, 1999 12:37:51 PM
IP: unknown-31-157.glm.com

Pist off- havent heard from you in some time...

Weilk-- about finding gargs on Genesis-- look on ebay, under games, and also on the link I have here. It's too a company called Funco.com- all they do is sell used games and such, and they have a huge selection, and very good quality. I got my gargoyles game there for the Sega. They also sell the older game players like Sega, Nintendo, ect. to contact them. They may have what your looking for. And you can order from online!!

Cherry blossem- I love CS Lewis works- he has always been a big influence in both my writing and life.

Aaron-- did the link I gave you help?

Now for more serious commentary--

Both of these things (the legos/death camps & selling of destroyed fetus' ) is disgusting. I totally agree with Servious Jr, and those who have commented on these unpleasent topics already..here's my two cents.

We live in a world where atrocities and brutality has become chick and glamorized. It has become fashionable to believe in nothing. But when you believe in nothing, then nothing is sacred. Not life, yours or others. This is the world around us, a world that believes in nothing, and produces nothing.

How it got to be this bad, or why it is this bad can be answered both by psychologists, religious scholars, and pretty much every armchair scholar ever to speak. We all have our own theories, and really the reason why is not as important as this: What do we do now?

I would be an idiot to say evil does not exist in men's hearts. That there are those who would rape and kill you without so much as a second thought. How do we choose to exist in a world such as this?

The world around us does affect us, but we can choose to believe in the sanctity of life, when others do not. Remeber that there are mothers who would lay down there life for there children if needed, and that there are people who how would stop to help someone in need.

You have to be wise of the