Add to the Comment Room | Last week's Comment Room | TGS WebSite | Text-only Comment Room

<<2158-up>> actually, i don't think that it's multiple-futures. {i asked before, and was told that all of time is locked in place}....so, i really don't know. {but do Angela&co know that it's locked? maybe not - could that be a reason?}.


<<sheer unlikelyness of hte 2158-up>>: well, i think of it in two ways:

1) anyone seen the movie 'Erik The Viking'? think of the land of Hy-Brasil in there - "we're all terribly nice to one another." {makes ya worry about music in the gargs future}!!

2) in a Alternate History I once made, aliens came to Earth 300 years ago, flew over every major city {buzzing hte roofs of the taller things}, froze a few crops {they give new meaning to 'freezer people'}...and then moved to Antarctica.
. . the political situation on that world built up like a pressure cooker; no nation wanted to show aggression, for fear of being annialated....225 years later, everything exploded. {a war even this Earth hasn't seen yet!}.


Rodlox
Saturday, April 22, 2000 05:29:03 PM
IP: spider-th034.proxy.aol.com

New on my site:
"Passages," the first Dissidents story. Interestingly, it insisted on being told in the first person by Corwin. He's a bit of a mental rambling-man, that boy ; ) But I like him.
Also posted my notes on the Avalon Clan, finally naming the ones I hadn't figured out yet, decided who the biologically siblings are, who the mates pairs are, and worked out descriptions for everyone (speaking of which, I was too lazy to look it up, does anyone know offhand what style of wings Ophelia has?)
Last but not least, some revised pics by Demona May, after I finally settled on descriptions.

Fire Storm > while my name on the big screen is a dream every author probably has, not if it's connected with _that_ movie!!!

Robby > re: Ariel's Wedding Night -- no, probably not; it wasn't my best work ... pandering garbage and cheap thrills, dontcha know ... ; )

Daniel > well-said. Probably unattatinable, but we can strive!

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Saturday, April 22, 2000 05:01:41 PM
IP: 07-142.009.popsite.net

**CONTAINS COMMENTS ON CURRENT TGS EPISODE**

WINTERWOLF - You wrote: [<Sata mentions that the Twins were dying>

Here IMHO I think she was trying to play on Harthoth's sympathy. It didn't work though, so she had to tell him the real reason.]

She didn't actually mention that flashback to Harthoth; it was just a sidethought that she had to herself that I thought was interesting - it could be a throwaway line to a missing story that we'll never see but on the other hand it just sounds too interesting for it to be left untouched forever. (It would make for great material for a G2158 series if the staff decided to go in that direction in a few years after TIMEDANCER raps up.)

You wrote: [The Weird Sisters were powerless. Isafet beat Selene savagely. Brooklyn realized he could not let anyone come to harm not even the Weird Sisters.]

In the end I can agree with that; Brooklyn would have done the right thing. But I liked the beginning much more where he was portrayed as having been a bit twisted by his lonliness and pain to the point where maybe he would turn his back on his core beliefs. He's not a saint after all and he's not a comic book hero. He's just a sentient being who's life is being torn apart by forces beyond his control - he can break down under the circumstances.

But the part where he actually came to his senses could have been done a little better; At this point to me it seems just like the plot needed him to do something instead of the character himself deciding that he needed to it. Even with his belief in the "Gargoyles Protect" mantra there is still a lot of his personal feelings involved. Harthoth does make a good argument in some ways, appealling to the pain that Brooklyn has and is feeling at that moment:

"You pity them because they are vulnerable. Did you harbor such compassion when they set you on this strange quest? Did you pity them when the Phoenix flame took you away from your mate? Remember, they are ones who wronged you."

Brooklyn is only a simple mortal sentient with a good and a bad side, with a giving and selfish side. Consumed with a desire to just have this job finished and to get back to his preganant wife (who was dying the last time he saw her) I can see him being willing to go through very much with this questionable route.

Having them tied up and huddling together was correctly shown as arousing some sympathy - the Weird Sisters are mortal, scared, and confused at that point. Selene is beaten up. It was building up perfectly. But then suddenly Brooklyn snaps just as he's about to get what he wants. It might have played out better if the Weird Sisters had remained scared but defiant and refused what Harthoth asked, refuse to release Brooklyn. Then Isfet moves to "persuade" them to do what Harthoth askes and as that starts that's when Brooklyn snaps - when he sees that the ends really don't justify the means. Like this he saw the Weird Sisters hurt and scared a bit and that's it. He should have moved only when he realized that things had gone too far, and that he was wrong to go down this route.


JASON - You wrote: [The main characters are okay but just about everyone else is a total jerk it seems who knows enough about what's going on to use Brooklyn as a pawn while he's pretty clueless.]

With Broadway, Angela, and the rest of the 2158-up crew, I can kind of see them being jerks but on the other hand I can also see what they are doing as balancing out with what Brooklyn and Sata both do upon their return to 1996. I do think though that the 2158-up crew is being a bit too restrictive in what they are doing - they don't have to give details but can say that she shouldn't worry about Brooklyn being dead or anything - that she will see him again eventually.

(I have a theory that in TGS since we have seen that there are multiple timelines then it's possible that this future that we are seeing doesn't have to be the actual future but only a potential future. And so by restricting information so much the 2158-up crew is insuring that this future will not stay a potential future but become the actual future.

I figure like this - The past is set. So any point prior to 1996 that Brooklyn went to is a set event and he is only part of the picture there. Now Brooklyn isn't a historian but I'm sure that he has a good picture of what the past is supposed to look like. Any point he goes to in the past is going to be in an established past in his personal timeline. But from 1996-up is an unknown future, a place he has no clue about whatsoever.

Now the Phoenix Gate probably does still draw in some way on the subconscious desires of whoever has possession of it - so when Brooklyn wanted to go home so badly in Season 1 and wanted to see his friends and family again, the Gate drew on that. But instead it dropped him into a future time period but one that was molded on what he wanted - a peaceful place where his friends and family could be found.

From that point forward when the Gate took him to a future time period it dropped him in that future that he had seen since now the Gate had some working idea of what the future looked like based on Brooklyn's memories and experiences. But this doesn't have to be THE future.

Now Broadway and Angela might have an idea about this or they might not. But either way if Brooklyn and Sata know too much about the past then they could possibly change the direction that the timeline is heading and thus keep the 2158-up we are being shown from happening as the actual future.)

The Weird Sisters as well as many other Fey on the other hand are basically jerks. They are doing what they are doing to make sure things either go well for them or fit into whatever half-truths and schemes they come up with to pass away the time in their immortal lifetimes.

And as for Harthoth, well he's stuck serving an evil dragon bent on world conquest. That can't be leaving him in a good mood on most days. If I was him I wouldn't be too eager to help anyone either.

You wrote: [Well Angela did take her daughter away from her life for the about ninety years if I remember right. That's a bit hard to forgive I think.]

I don't think that's it entirely. It might be part of it but the way that was brought up in prior stories, it seems like more of an excuse for the argument than the actual reason for the argument. I think something much bigger happened to cause the rift we've seen.

It's possible though that its connected to that Earthquake that prompted the move to Avalon for 90 years. Gwen was described as having terrible memories of it - what if she got trapped somewhere or needed her help then but Angela wasn't able to be there when Gwen needed her? That would make for a great story.

You wrote: [But while I read this I noticed Gwen say Angela had been the one to change things from the clan to the individual but Angela just wanted recognition not major changes in clan structure.]

True. But that's not exactly how Gwen might see things. Also on the other hand she might have just twisted things to put it like that to get in another shot at her mother.

(Or alternately history textbooks might not exactly see things that way Angela does. Most pre-college history textbooks I've encountered have always dumbed things down and only givn more or less a basic summery of what's happened - it's possible that Gwen learned her clan's history out of something like that :-) )

You wrote: [And for the amount of time not being enought to change things. One-hundred and thirty-five years ago the U.S. was stuck in the Civil War so things can change pretty quickly. One hundred and sixty-three years is really only a short time if you look at it from the perspective of how long the universe has been around.]

I can accept change. I can accept a lot of things when talking about the future. But some things that have been presented in this future are beyond suspension of disbelief.

In my last two posts I gave some points on how I could buy the situations presented in Egypt, Kenya, Ethiopia, and Mozambique. But Sudan as an independent economic powerhouse? How? Where is the logical growth from today's situation? The way things are and seem to be heading don't leave any point open for things to turn this way. At most I could see either the place being conquered by a neighboring militant power or becoming a sphere of influence or colony of some other nation. Then I could buy the region of Sudan being properly developed. If Kenya took it over or if it fell under Egyptian control then I could accept some development - otherwise I can only see it becoming increasingly isolationist.

And what about New Olypmus, a nation that's been harboring pure hatred for humanity for 2000 years? That's going to change in 163 years? They're going to get all friendly with humanity especially after most of their first contact is going to be with politicians?! (And especially if they have a suspicious foreign policy towards the outside world that would prevent massive trade and travel to and from the island for a significant period of that 163 year period?)

What about the Balkans, and the Caucasus? A thousand years of hatred and fighting is going to disappear in 163 years because in NYC Gargoyles have appeared? (What I could buy is a shift of the third world to this area if the situation in Africa improved.)

What about Northern Ireland? What about the Middle East? What about South Asia? What about the tons of nukes that are floating around the world now? Where are the small conflicts? Where are the limited wars? Where is any international political hostility? Everyone is getting along so nicely that it almost seems like a Gargoyle Universe version of San Angeles out of DEMOLITION MAN.

Change is good and the future is hard to figure out in real life but this is fiction here - the development should make some sense and should be able to be accepted. As it is I have a hard time accepting this Utopia - I'm waiting for something major to explode somewhere or to see something that we just haven't been able to see yet happen. What would be nice is to see some clarification on the 2158-up world - some mention of conflict, some mention of major politics, some hostility. It's too happy now and it looks like this been this way for an unrealistic measure of time.


SOROW - You wrote: [Where on Earth is Demona?]

Who said that Demona has to be on Earth? (Personally though I figure that she spends a lot of time in Paris. With travel and communication being as fast as they are in 2158-2163 it would be like living in the suburbs.)

**CONTAINED COMMENTS ON CURRENT TGS EPISODE**
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, April 22, 2000 02:07:06 PM
IP: 228.new-york-16-17rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

A dazed Sapcebabie enters the CR guided by her chibi's

two shocking things on Tv today

1.The Storming of the Gonzales's home early this morning. Like the poor kid isnt traumatized enough. now they have an amred troop with a gun rushing towards him and have him taked away from the people who loved him. YES I know he is going to be seeing his father but the matter of how they handled it was...I don't know it just felt wrong.

The situation is ALMOST like when Oberon was trying to take Alex from his family....what little respect people have with the goverment is gone now.

The GOOD nostaligic shocker.. I saw an a comercial for it on Fox kids this morning next week at 11:00am ET they will be airing the classic Dungeons and Dragons! OMG I loved this cartoon. It was one of those cartoons I watched every Saturday...that and Smurfs,sigh they hardly make them like that anymore.
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, FL, U.S.A
Saturday, April 22, 2000 12:49:48 PM
IP: user-37kap3r.dialup.mindspring.com

Jannie:
Thank you for your comments, and I'm actually glad that you don't completely agree with me. It's healthy for people to have honest disagreements if it encourages them to think about the subject. And you're right that it can be hard to ignore hurtful words, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it. And be ready to accept the consequences when we fail. I guess I've had to deal with enough Real Life tragedy and anguish that a few angry words read on the Internet just can't get me riled up any more. And I really am serious about the sounding board stuff; if people can take their anger out on me then maybe they won't have to spread it around.

Oh, and thank you for sharing the "pardon my french" bit. I'd never heard that before. Very interesting.

Shadowrider:
I'm sorry I brought The Stituation up again; I'm definitely done now. :) It was just something I had to say. It's a fine line to walk between being forceful enough to get the point across and being pushy. That and I was posting at 3:00 am. ;)
Daniel Johnson - [danielj7@exit109.com]
Ocean Grove, NJ, USA
Saturday, April 22, 2000 12:15:35 PM
IP: 98ce753a.ipt.aol.com

Everyone> Thnks for the kind words. I was having a bad day that day... anyways, no, there isn't anything I can do about them destroying my property. Because there isn't any evidence to say that they did. It would be my word against theirs, plus alot of time and money I don't have. I let it pass a long time ago, and I never really wanted to resume the fight.

Rage Against the Machine> SJ, sure there might be rage and violence in the lyrics, but it's not saying go out and kill people bacuse they piss you off. It's all very political. It's about oppresion and how you can't put up with it anymore (on a grand, governmental scale, not a scuffle between two teenagers). It's also about the lead singer's personal life, which has been long and hard. And, since I don't pretent to know the lot of it (and because I'm tired today) I won't post any of it here. But if your intersted, there many a site around that has mini to full bios on the man.

Deals & Exchanges> Why didn't Brooklyn show the scroll to Harthoth? Because Harthoth is EVIL. Think about it, whould you show a mystical document that you're not even sure what's inside because it's locked to your biggest enemy? As Robby didn't know, yes, we have plans to go more into the scroll later in the season. I co-wrote the episode, in fact...

Later all.
Alan "Ordell" - [awaltrip@cableone.net]
Odessa, TX
Saturday, April 22, 2000 12:00:10 PM
IP: ppp-2.ode.cableone.net

Fire Storm> That's just it, though. You couldn't have gotten anyone's personal information off of the city web server. It's completely isolated from the rest of the computer system. The hardware isn't even housed in the same building with any of the important computers. *ALL* that's on the web server is a bunch of basic city services like the library's home page and some pages for the other departments. Mostly it's basic public info like office hours and "help wanted" ads that you can also pick up by going to Human Resources and asking for a copy.

If we kept anything important on the server, we'd have better security.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Saturday, April 22, 2000 11:46:33 AM
IP: ip122.fort-worth6.tx.pub-ip.psi.net

Warpmind: oh, then you won't mind if we "always look on the bright side of life ::whistles oof-key:: always look on teh brighter side of life..."

::white rrabbitt attacks::

...and Warpmind rejoyces with teh peasants...
::)



Rodlox
Saturday, April 22, 2000 11:38:20 AM
IP: spider-wc053.proxy.aol.com

Allegedly, the Oklahoma City bombers' plan was for their terrorist attack to make people remember Waco. Ironically, it's done just the opposite in creating a scar on the national psyche that will forever overshadow it.
Patrick Toman
Saturday, April 22, 2000 09:21:35 AM
IP: abd9dc80.ipt.aol.com

*Warpmind enters, alone.*
Jeez, my chibis are *still* unpacking souvenirs...

This discussion about appearance et cetera has struck a chord... I am forcibly reminded of why nobody picks on me for dressing "outlandish", as Jannie called it: a year and a half ago (give or take), a classmate, whom I'd frequently been on edge with (just a common example of, how to put it, incompatible chemicals), he actually caught me in a locking grip, of sorts. So I warned him thrice (for legal concerns), then I got just enough leverage to slam the back of my head into his face... not something I'm proud of, mind you, but the only available option at the moment... Later that day, he tripped in the staircase and was admitted to a hospital with a slightly fractured skull (nothing major, just a little crack), and was gone for a while. And of course, there wasn't a single student who believed he'd cracked his head in the stairs... so over the next few days, the last students were off my back for good... Now, I have a reputation here... "Nice guy, but don't tick him off." I guess I'm lucky there weren't any persecutions, but I still wish things could have been different... This may sound like babble, but my point is: do you have to build up a reputation before people care less about what you wear than who you are? No, I say like the alien ambassador in some movie I can't remember the title of... "Nice planet, but we really have to do something about the natives."

Mecord: Nice page... Hmmm... maybe I ought to have a picture taken of myself, with *my* sword (cane variety) for my website? Hmmm...

Gside: My dear friend, if you keep quoting Quest for the Holy Grail, I'm afraid I'll have to sic my chibis on you. ;)

**RP**
Warpmind rushes into the Administrator's chamber, where Sammael, Kari, the Administrator and Mephisto are standing.
"Oh, crud... Hi, Mephisto. It's been a while."
Mephisto stares at Warpmind for a few seconds.
"And who might you be?"
"Oh, I'm just a humble employee of your employer... and of your employer's adversary."
Mephisto raises a brow.
"The Realmsfarer? Interesting, the Quencher claimed she had done you in two years ago."
"Yeah, I know. She got the wrong person, though; I'm still pretty much alive. Oh, by the way, I hope Parka wasn't one of your favorite demons. Holy water injected into a damon's blood stream isn't precisely healthy, you know."
Mephisto snorts.
"Mere holy water cannot hurt the greater demons such as Parka."
Warpmind grins.
"Yeah, well, depends on how holy that water is. I got my supplies from the Big Boss upstairs. And by the way, you're in violation of the Balance Pact between Lucifer and Jehova."
"And what are you going to do about that, mortal?"
Warpmind grinned wickedly.
"Sammael, Kari, you might want to step back. If I place a direct vidcom transmission to both of my bosses about this... misstep, things could get messy."
Warpmind flicks up a palmtop of some sort, and Mephisto nabs it and crushes it in one mighty hand.
"I think not, Realmsfarer. My plans are far too important for any mortal to disturb them now."
**RP END**

Well, that's about it, then... See ya later, gang.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Saturday, April 22, 2000 09:16:52 AM
IP: maaloeytnb-gw.online.no

Daniel> I agree with most of what you said. However, words can and do hurt. They are our way of expressing ourselves. Yes, it would be nice if we could allow angry or derogatory words directed at us to fall on deaf ears, but that doesn't happen. But, I do understand what you were trying to say and it is wise if we can allow most things that are said to us (in anger) just slip on by without retalitation. Thank you for your offer of being a sounding board =)

"Pardon my french" comes from when settlers were first coming to America. The British, Puritans, English were all "proper" people with strict Christian like behaviors and beliefs. The French were a crude bunch of people. They were the Europeans that were more vulgar in their speech and behaviors. Think of the stereotype that the French still carries with most Americans.... doesn't bath regularly, doesn't have the same moral standards, etc.
The phrase came from their crude language - some words that we still use and don't even realize just how nasty or crude they are. For example, the word squaw (for female Indian) is from the french. It's an old slang french word for vagina. Also, the Grand Teton Mountains was named by a frenchman..... Teton means tities. He thought that two of the mountains looked like a woman's breast.
Soooo.. that's why the old phrase "pardon my french" is around. It dates back to the beginning of America.

I have hosted french foreign exchange students over the years and have loved each of them. They, of course, were nothing like the stereotype ;)
It's the same stereotyping as all of us Texans.... We're not all named Bubba or Barbara Jean, we don't all wear cowboy boots, wear 10 gallon hats and do the Texas Two Step. Well, *I* do the Texas Two Step - but I don't wear cowboy boots! *shudders*

Personally, I love hearing French and love the french accent. *looks at Denis and wiggles eyebrows* I'm looking forward to learning the language :)

Take care and I hope everyone has a safe and enjoyable Easter holiday!

24 more school days left for me
104 more days till G2K
100 more days till Denis and I meet!! *happy feet dance*
Jannie
Saturday, April 22, 2000 08:58:48 AM
IP: 209-144-251-233.hou.port.mytelco.com

I'm not going to make any comment about the "Pistoff situation". As I said in my previous post, I replied him in a more proper place.

Fire Storm:> <<Which is why I didn't do anything. One of my favorite movies when I was 14-16 was Full Metal Jacket and other Vietnam/WWII movies. I LOVED war movies. I
saw violence on TV all the time. My favorite video game was DOOM. I (regulary) downloaded copies of the Anarchist Cookbook and even memorized parts of it.
I was FACINATED with the nuclear weapon. I listened to the songs my parents grew up with about drug use and some violence. Hell, I even had EXTREAMLY
violent dreams where I disembowl and kill everyone in the school with my claws (I LOVE Wolverine!)
My thoughts are admitidly dark and I carry to myself. By these definitions I SHOULD have vaped the school. But WHY didn't I?
Because I wasn't crazy (enough). And I have rather strong morals. Something that the people who do stuff like that are severely lacking. >> Well, what's strange about it? I mean, Full Metal Jacket is still one of my favorite movies, as well as Clockwork Orange (actually, I like practically all of Kubrick's movies) and I also like a lot war movies, both about WWII and Vietnam (I'm very interested in strategic and military history). I did never download the Anarchist Cookbook, and Doom is not my preferred game (although I spent some nights awake trying to complete some nasty level), but I love Wolverine ("I'm the best at what I do, bub!" SNIKT!) and my preferred band is the Litfiba, an Italian band whose songs have often been accused to incite to anarchy, revolution, violence and drug addiction. In spite of all these things, I have never committed any crime (except a speed limit...), nor I ever tried to kill someone, the two times in my life I have hit someone was for self-defense, I din't use drugs, I am very moderate with alcohool and I'm not part of any criminal or revolutionary association. Why? for the same easons of yours: I'm not crazy, I have some moral and so on. It is silly to me judging people by the music they listen or the stuff they read. A lot of crazy criminals used to have a very common and reassurung appearance.

Joxter the Mighty:> Hi, nice to meet you. Yes, it is fun seeing Chuck Norris beating up bad guys, but sometines he takes too long. I mean, he uses moves that are supposed to stun or disable the opponent at once, by breaking limbs or so...but after having taken the blow, the bad guy keeps on fighting. Hmm...probably it is to allow the ol' Chuck to show his best repertory. Anyway, the show is quite funny, and I watch it as I can.

Gside:> Easter Pie: Oh, yes, I know it. It is a typical dish of Southern Italy, made usually for holydays (Christmas, Easter and so on). Sorry, I can't recall its name. It is very good, but a little heavy.

Daniel Johnson:> Very well said. I somewhat agree. Not completely, but, as I said, I don't want to speak about the situation here. As far as I'm concerned, it would be better to leave it behind. Anyway, you're right: "Lady Maeve", whoever she is, is not to blame for the message, but I'd really like to know why exactly she called our attention on that. Oh, well, maybe I will know it and maybe not. Maybe I already said it, but it is good to have you here, you manage to say the right thing.

Kyryn:> Ok, understood. Thank you for answering me.

Well, nothing more.
I don't know if I'll connect again later or not. In this second case, happy Easter to everyone.
Shadowrider - [shadowrider@katamail.com]
Milano, Italy
Saturday, April 22, 2000 06:21:46 AM
IP: h213-20-19.mi2.albacom.net

I haven't posted here for a couple of days, due to RL, but I did occasionally check here and I did read the new story. I really liked it BTW, and had planned on some commentary, but I'm afraid that at the moment I've forgotten what I was going to say. Sigh.

I first started posting here just after the last big flare-up, and while I was lurking at the time and saw it developing, I don't think that I have either the right or the wisdom to pass any sort of judgement. Nor would it be very useful. Instead, I'm going to try to do something constructive and hope that someone can benefit from my experience. Maybe I'll offend or anger someone; if so, then I apologize, but I think I have to say this. This isn't directed at any person or persons; it's just meant for informational purposes.

First, there is no POSSIBLE reason anyone has to personally attack anyone else here in this public forum. None. Ever. It does no good to the attacker or the defender and just makes the rest of us miserable.

Second, there is no possible reason anyone has to COUNTER-attack anyone else here. Language is perhaps the most profound invention of the human race. Words can have enormous power over us. They can move us with any possible emotion. If we so choose. But, they are still only words and their power is directly proportional to our belief in their power. In any war of words, the only way you can lose is if you BELIEVE you can lose. And, if you believe you CAN'T lose, what is the point of giving your attacker the satisfaction of knowing that he/she has gotten to you? When used properly, silence can be the most effective weapon of all. And, sometimes NOT defending yourself can be more courageous than putting up a good fight, even though it seems to go against human nature. Remember that this isn't Real Life; most of us don't live anywhere near one another and in any case there is no threat to your personal safety. People will usually respect you more if you at least try to take the high ground.

Third, people do of course make mistakes; anyone who doesn't think he/she does is beyond arguing with. When you do say something that is inappropriate and realize it, do the right thing: apologize. Everyone has bad days and bad moods. Most people know that and will understand. While I said before that I wasn't going to direct this at anyone in particular, I do want to mention one name. Doug's initial rant-post was clearly inappropriate, having been made in anger; however, when he realized this, he quickly took responsibility and apologized to the group. Thank you, Doug. That was a good example for the rest of us. There are far too many people in the world today who would rather blame some one else than take responsibility for their own actions.

Fourth, speaking of responsibility, no one HAD to go to Pistoff's website and read his rant. (And he has every right to say want he wants on his own web pages.) I'm sure anyone who knew what had happened here would realize that anything he put up there would be inflammatory; I'm sorry if anyone takes offense, but going there to read his rant and then coming in here to complain is irresponsible and does absolutely no good if he doesn't even read here (which we don't know). All it did was open old wounds.

Fifth, I must respectfully disagree with those who say that "Lady Maeve" is a blameless messenger. Whoever this person is (I don't know nor do I care), he/she clearly posted that message with the full knowledge that it could start another flame war. Please, whoever you are, if you care about the people in this place, don't do it again. And to everyone else: lets just ignore him/her, OK? That's all I have to say.

Finally, in an attempt to do something even remotely useful, I have a proposal. The next time anyone feels a need to rant about someone else, send it to me. In email. My address is always at the bottom of my posts, and my mailbox is always open. And fireproof. :) Be as graphic, crude, and vulgar as you like; you'll find I'm virtually impossible to offend. Nor will I judge. If you want advice, I would be happy to help. If you just want someone to listen while you vent, I can do that too. If I can in any way help keep it out of the CR, then I'll be happy. If you think *I* am the one who is out of line and need a good toasting, go ahead and get the flamethrowers out if it makes you feel better. But keep it in email. And don't expect me to retaliate.

Well, that's it. Again, I apologize to all those I managed to annoy or offend. I'd really rather be talking about the new Timedancer, and hopefully, soon I'll get the chance. Unless, of course, I get lynched first. Oh, well. I could always go back to being a lurker. But, then that would be rather cowardly, wouldn't it? Sigh. I'm tired. Time for bed.
Daniel Johnson - [danielj7@exit109.com]
Ocean Grove, NJ, USA
Saturday, April 22, 2000 02:54:08 AM
IP: 98cad5dc.ipt.aol.com

Delphi>> roflmao!! That was great!

Fire Storm>> no, you didn't mis-read it, I forgot to mention that little fact.

Robby>> <MewTwo development> is this the same couple of minutes that is added to the beginning of the video release?
Katara - [Katara_O@hotmail.com]
San Diego , CA
Saturday, April 22, 2000 02:39:43 AM
IP: 98cdfcae.ipt.aol.com

Where are my manners? I forgot to thank Gside in that last post.

Gside> Who's better than you? Thanks for the link on the Spanish Inquisition.
Winterwolf - [awinterwolf]
Bronx, NY
Saturday, April 22, 2000 02:14:20 AM
IP: dialup-63.210.220.94.newyork1.level3.net

Jannie> No. It was about a teacher he was talking about. The one that got him suspended for a couple of days. About the email miss: I put @exite.com when it should be @excite.com

Fire Storm> I'm going to have to send the pic on Monday :(

Robby> The running gag. ^_^ If you don't know what I'm talking about all I can say is: This will be revealed later?
Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Saturday, April 22, 2000 02:10:15 AM
IP: dialup-63.210.220.94.newyork1.level3.net

I recently saw the complete Japanese version of Pokemon: Mewtwo Strikes Back (whereas in the past I'd only seen clips of it) and GEEEEZ! Its FAR better than our version! The acting and music is way better, the ending handled better, and there was a full FIFTEEN MINUTES of cut footage! 15 minutes of character development on Mewtwo and the others. Why was this much footage cut? Wasn't for content... I guess its because it would have made Mewtwo a far more interesting and complex villain...

**TIMEDANCER STUFF**

Joxer the Mighty- The guy's name was Payne, not Pain. I should know, I wrote the story. 8) As far as whatever happened to him... We have plans to reveal that later.

Who is Harthoth's mate- We have plans to reveal this later.

What *IS* Lex in the future- We have plans to reveal this later...

WHy didn't Brook show Harthoth the scroll- Uhmmm... We have plans to reveal this later?

Why is the future so peaceful- We have plans to reveal this later.

Eh, I'll be a bit more forthcoming in this case. World creation is tough. Mapping out a 163 year timeline is hard enough. Creating an almost entirely new cast to flesh out that world is even harder, especially when initially its only for the purpose of one story in a series. But because of Timedancer, we've had to map out a 20,000 year timeline, create new casts for almost any given episode, keep continuity in check the whole way through and more. It is NOT easy. We don't claim to know everything that happens from start to finish between 1998-2163, a lot of it is made up as we go along. The situation in 2163 is something we have not fully explored yet, largely because we don't have the time or the space to do so. But we do have notions behind at least some of the background story, and we have a timeline that dictates a few pretty major events you the readers are not yet aware of. I can't guarantee that the entire background will ever be revealed in full, but you might learn more later.

Why am I "evil" when it comes to Timedancer teasers- We have plans to re.... Er... Look on the bright side. I likely won't be teasing with Pendragon at all... That's more Todd's venue...

Timedancer: The lost episodes- Actually something we've talked about doing when the series runs its course. But that won't be for a while yet...

**END TIMEDANCER STUFF**

Tim P.- AH, the wonderful world of Ranma fanfiction... There's some goodies out there...

Aaron- Next SAAS meeting is the 30th. Bring 4 blank tapes if possible and I'll see about copying Slayers and Slayers NEXT for ya.

DPH- One of the room rules is only one RP a day. Try to keep that in mind.

Kitainia: The Movie- Could be interesting...

Clive Barker working for DIsney- Eww...

Lucas, Berman to fans- Screw you- Ha! Too true!

Public domain- The phoenix is public domain...

Walker, Texas Ranger- DOn't watch it regularly by any means, but I've seena few eps.

Lexy-Didn't realize you were such a Hyena fan. Heh.

Christine- "Ariel's Wedding Night"? Do we even WANT to know?

"Excuse my French"- The reason this is used when people curse... My guess is it goes back to the joke of all Americans hating the French. (DOn't know where THAT comes from though, I have nothing against the French.)

And I HAD meant to do a bit of RP here, but I'm tired and I have Timedancer illustrations to work on yet... So I'll be back laters.

When you ask?

Er..

I have plans to reveal this later?
Robby
Saturday, April 22, 2000 01:44:03 AM
IP: spider-ta038.proxy.aol.com

Skippy: <Being in Trek fandom,I see that a lot of that occuring inside the big organizied fan groups (Starfleet in particular)>
I know. Besides being a fandom everyone is at least a little familiar with, it is one I have heard many complaints about it.
Thanks for the additional info!
(Note: I have only been to ONE 'Trek convention and everyone was pretty much in Star Fleet uniforms except the Borg guy.)

Kyryn: <Library Security>
I was absolutely APAULED at the lack of security on that server! I could have EASILY made it so the server would format it's hard drive on re-boot then re-boot the machine!

David G: <Something better than just a string of profanity and bragging.>
At the very least they should have made the page load porn or redirect it to mommy.com
<More to the point, we don't have much security because that server doesn't have anything important on it.>
Well, the problem I had is not only could I TRASH the servers, but I could have gotten anyone's information on their SS number, Drivers Licensce numbers, names, addresses and phone numbers. (All of that info is REQUIRED to get a library card in my city.)
Needless to say I changed all my info on that computer right then and there (LEGALLY)
<I just need a list of them in the order they ran.>
OH... There's a link to the episode listing at www.Gargoyles-fans.org

Three Gorges Dam: I think that China might as well just paint a big red bulls-eye on that thing. If ANYONE has a beef against China, that will be the place for terrorism (GIVEN, short of a powerful sisemic pulse generator, it would take a nuke or two to take out that dam)

Christine: <something like what you mentioned would only make me run even _faster_ away from the movie theater!!!>
Really? Seeing your name on the big screen? Why?
<But while neither of the marriages lasted more than two years, the weddings at least were quite fun!>
Well, if you can't enjoy the marriage, at least enjoy the celebration at the start!

Katara: <actually it was one of those spary on highlights>
OH! Ok. I thought she re-did her ENTIRE hair in sparkle gold!
(Guess I misread it.)

Winterwolf: <I may have to use it as my new posting picture once it is in.>
I don't have a problem with that! And what better way to advertize the pic you altered than to post with it!
(Although it may be after finals. Gorebash is quite busy with school this semester)

Aaron: <I thought the point of Oklahoma City was so we wouldn't forget Waco>
Oh, it was. But I BARELY heard about Waco the other day. It seems like people forgot about Waco and focused ONLY on Oklahoma city.

Patrick Toman: <and all the consequences of it, both economic and environmental, will likely not be fully known until many years after the waters have finally stopped rising.>
I bet there will be alot more earthquakes in China in the next 15-20 years.
<it would likely dwarf even the Eyrie Building>
I would say so! BUT, I am pretty sure that FAA law will get repealed in a few years. (ESPECIALLY in the TGS universe. That pyramaid has to be over 2000 feet!)

SJ: LOVED the "Story!"
I think that if the government DOES try to take him by force, he will end up dead.

Gside: <Anyone else waiting for the final 6.0?>
Definately. I haven't downloaded any of the Beta's yet, but I will download 6.0 128bit.
<php3>
What is PHP3?
Fire Storm - [Night-Flame@usa.net]
Dearborn, MI
Saturday, April 22, 2000 01:27:29 AM
IP: t3-94.visitus.net

****TGS SPOILERS****

Deals and Exchanges: The best episode of the season so far. I pretty much agree with all that has been said about it. I'm definitely wondering why Brooklyn didn't show the scroll to Harthoth.

****END SPOILERS****

I just started a summer job on Thursday and am now rejoicing that my parents are no longer bugging me to get a job.
Peter - [hybridone@ignmail.com]
Kamloops, BC, Canada
Saturday, April 22, 2000 01:03:16 AM
IP: dial-309.ocis.net

Shadowrider> easter pie: That isn't quite what I am thinking of. What I know as easter pie is made with eggs, many cheeses and many meats (salami, prosiutto, ...). Of course this may be (and probably is) from a very different region.

Random RPG news: Ability system for FF9 revealed. All equipable items will have inherent abilities, varying from character to character that can be used when (surprise) the item is equiped. Also, after using the item for a time, the ability will have become permanently learnt. (story ar rpgamer.com)

Random Anime/RPG news: Lina`chan et al. have finished the translation of the Tenchi Muyo RPG. The patch can be found at rpgd.emulationworld.com/ or translations.animangarpg.org/

Fire Storm> <<Is French a "Naughty" language>>: Naughty my foot! It's English that's bad. We named a part of the human body after half the conjugations of a very bad word. Perhaps it started as an excuse in front of "innocents": they said something bad then prentended to have slipped into French, and not very well.
(bonus points if you can see where the first part of that is funny (hint: Henry V))
<<ONLY the FCC?>>: And the RIAA, Nintendo, Square,... But FCC is more general than the others, so they get first dibs.

Warpmind> <<That also explains why some of my classmates recieved some very strange credit card printouts...>>: And could you please keep them away from my parents? (apparently someone managed to buy a couple hunred bucks worth of stuff at Amazon with their credit card numbers, said (s)he was garside@binhad.com. Don't worry, everything is being fixed: new cards, and Amazon is also being contacted)
<<I haven't had a chance to see that movie yet>>: Pay me no mind, for I shall continue quoting until and well after you have seen it. You can probably read the entire script eventually if you let me go on.

Joxter> <<But maybe they don't know that themselves>>: According to Weisman's Law, what happened happened, so if Sata decides to spend all her time at Wyvern, we know Brooklyn will come there. They should know that no matter what they do or do not say, Sata and the twins will meet Brooklyn again.

Heh, Netscape crashed, but I managed to save my post before I had to completely kill it. Anyone else waiting for the final 6.0?

Winterwolf> << figure Gside or maybe Wilek will feel honor bound to post if for me>>: The full skit is rather long, so, I shall post... a link! http://www.montypython.net/scripts/spanish.php3

CPH> <<I would be in favor of singling out people by is attitude and personality>>: But where do attitude and personality end and manifestations of them begin (i.e. dress, literary and musical taste, etc.)?

Aaron> <<Is everybody having a good Friday>>: The weather seems rather apropriate.

Rodlox> Zeno's Paradox: Which one? He had so many. He never got very far, though...
(p.s.: http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/z/zenoelea.htm)

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Saturday, April 22, 2000 12:34:19 AM
IP: gside.dorm.rutgers.edu

That first post was an accident. It wasn't supposes to go through. Sorry.
SOROW
Saturday, April 22, 2000 12:32:54 AM
IP: dll2a020-1069.splitrock.net

I'm still alive. I've been a little under the weather lately and couldn't lift my fingers to post.

***SPOILERS FOR TD***
This is by far one of the best TD eps ever written! It had all the elements we've been looking for in the new season. Harthoth (one of my favorite characters), Sata and Brooklyn (though they didn't interact), and different time zones. Just a couple of things I wanted to comment on, that's what this is for isn't it?

I'm very disappointed that the story didn't explain how Sata's delivery went. She and the eggs obviously made it, but in "Crossroads 2" the doctor mentioned that they may have to deliver the "Hard Way." Well, did they and what was it?! Why are the twins dying?

I think Brooklyn had bette sense to pursue in asking Harthoth for help. Yeah, they were friends for a good three years, but look at all the deception Harthoth has done. I know if harthoth were asking me over and over if I'd do *anything* to get back to my mate, I'd be more than a little suspicious. And Brooklyn should have known that when hurting people was involved in the spell, that meant BIG trouble. And doesn't Brooklyn understand that every time he tries to throw away his duty to the Gate or try to give it up, he ends up realizing that his duty to the Gate is as important as getting back to Sata? A little lack of conscience maybe.

Harthoth's mate> Yes, it has to be Gwen. The story was foreshadowing it up to that last paragraph. Maybe Angela and Gwen are at bad terms cause Angela knows who Harthoth is and what his dealings are with Brooklyn. Can't wait to find out. I'm starting to realize that I can't hate nor like Harthoth as a villian. Though he does decept Brooklyn time after time, it always seems like he's doing it for Brooklyn's benefit. As some kind of moral lesson. To me, I think that while Harthoth his helping Apep conquer the world, he's hoping that Brooklyn will have the power to stop him. Interesting...

Where on Earth is Demona?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Harthoth's deal with Sata that in letting her read the books, she's have to deliver them to him in the past? I didn't quite understand. If that's true, it seems that because of the first person tense in the late books that Sata probably wrote them herself.

Overall, greatest ep I've read in a long time! Wonderful job staff!
***END SPOILERS***
SOROW
Saturday, April 22, 2000 12:32:08 AM
IP: dll2a020-1069.splitrock.net

I'm still alive. I've been a little under the weather lately and couldn't lift my fingers to post.

***SPOILERS FOR TD***
This is by far one of the best TD eps ever written! It had all the elements we've been looking for in the new season. Just a couple of things I wanted to comment on, that's what this is for isn't it?
I'm very disappointed that the story didn't explain how Sata's delivery went. She and the eggs obviously made it, but in "Crossroads 2" the doctor mentioned that they may have to deliver the "Hard Way." Well, did they and what was it?!
SOROW
Saturday, April 22, 2000 12:18:33 AM
IP: dll2a020-1069.splitrock.net

***BEGIN RP***
The Administrator looked at Kari and Sammael. "What is the meaning of this? We may be allies, but you should have the courtesy not to barge in like this--"
"Listen, Mrs. Administrator-person," Sammael said. "I hate to be curt with you, but it's because time is of the essence." He grabbed Dyspare and held the little demon in front of him. Dyspare squirmed a little. "See this?" He pointed to Dys. "THIS is a demon. If you don't move the Avatar out of its current orbit in about--"
"10 seconds," Kari said quickly.
"--10 seconds, this really bad mofo is going to open a gate to Hell using the station, and then about a billion of these little buggers are going to invade Earth!"
"Buggers?!" Dyspare began.
"Don't start. So please, for the love of all things sacred and holy, MOVE THE STATION!"
The Administrator bristled at the sight of Dyspare. She motioned to two of her drones. "Take the unidentified lifeform into custody." She turned to SJ (Sammael) and Kari. "I am afraid that I do not quite know what you are talking about. There does not appear to be anything wrong with the station. I do not see a necessity to change the station's orbit simply because--"
"We gotta do it now!" Kari shouted.
Sammael gritted his teeth and lunged for a nearby control panel. He jammed down randomly on it. "Something better work here!"
The Administrator looked furious. "What is the meaning of this? Your behavior is highly illogical! I must ask you to--"
"We got no time left!" Kari shouted.
Sammael slammed down on a handful of buttons, and the station suddenly lurched. Lights flickered on and off quickly, and everything was quiet. "I....I think I did it," Sammael said. "I think I moved the station a little."
Suddenly, the room was filled with a blinding light and the smell of sulfur. When things began to dim once more, it was clear that the room's population had suddenly enlarged by one. A tall, thin figure dressed all in red.
"Who is that?" Kari asked.
Sammael gasped for air. "Mephisto," he said gravely.
***END RP***

Glad to see that, to an extent, people have refrained from turning this CR into a big rant page. I hope that this continues, especially now that Robby has asked that things not degenerate into that.

Star Wars info: A potential big story about the 2nd Star Wars prequel....apparently, there is an Asian martial arts actor who Lucas and co. are very interested in. His name is Makiya Yamaguchi, and though I've never heard of him before, he's rumored to be up for the part of Darth Sidious' NEW Sith apprentice. I've heard that, if used, he'll be like a ninja-type Sith lord--hiding in the shadows, then opening up a can of whoop-ass on the Jedi when the moment serves him. I don't know if this is true, but hopefully if it is Lucas will take a hint and not delegate only 5 minutes of the movie to the guy like he did with Maul. Click on my name to see a picture of the potential new Sith lord!

Matrix news: For fans of the original movie, rejoice that Carrie Ann Moss, aka Trinity, has signed on to star in the 2 Matrix sequels, set to begin filming this fall. Yeah! More black leather bodysuits!
When reached for comment about Moss' signing, star Keanu Reeves reportedly said "Whoa!", followed by an enthusiastic "Dude!"

Lexx: What I dislike about this show is that....well, the production values are just so low. This looks like a cheap ass show. Ever see the movie "El Mariachi"? Writer/director Robert Rodriguez made the entire film for like, 7 grand, and it looks lightyears better than this show, which I'm sure probably has an episode budget of probably at least 6 figures. Plus the writing isn't that great....plus I have no sympathy for any of the characters. In fact I kind of hate them. Unfortunately, I think this show actually gets Sci-Fi decent ratings, so they probably won't cancel it...

OK City and Columbine: Two great American tragedies which I hope will never be repeated, although they probably will one day. I hope that the survivors of both can move past everything they've gone through.
There is one thing I heard recently that disturbed me about Columbine. I don't know if others will agree with me, but it upset me when I heard it. Some church in Columbine has been coming down pretty heavy on the two killers, and denied giving them a memorial service. That is there perogative, and they don't have to do anything for the families of the killers. And I don't sympathize with or for the killers--if they hadn't died, if they hadn't played the old suicide by cop thing, then I feel they deserve to be on death row for what they had done. But I don't know, it just struck me as kind of hypocritical that a church would have such hatred for the killers. Even if the killers were anti-Christian, is this the right kind of attitude to have? Jesus cared about everyone, including murderers. Take St. Paul, for example. He used to be known as Saul, aka "The Mad Dog of Tarsis". He would assault Christians, and there's a few scripture verses that show he threatened to kill them. Even though what the two killers did was horrible, it kind of bothers me that the church is not forgiving. I can understand the individual families not being able to forgive, but a church, IMO, should be willing to do so based upon the teachings of Christ.

Ordell: I agree with you about not judging others by their appearance. I gotta disagree with you, though, about Rage Against the Machine. I've listened to some of their music, and they're anything BUT peaceful. Lotta rage and violence there. Then again, perhaps I don't like them because of their rabidly anti-capitalistic tendencies.

Jenna: A Rennaissance wedding? That sounds interesting. What did that all entail? I'm picturing lots of those frilly, old-fashioned European clothes for some reason...;)
Oh, and the "rather be smart than cute" thing....ever hear of the "Man Show" on Comedy Central? They did a bit once that was both funny and pretty upsetting. They went around and asked a whole bunch of women a question: If you could take a drug that would make you really smart, but it made your butt real big, would you take it? An overwhelming majority of the women polled said no, they'd rather be stupid than have a large caboose.
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 11:53:29 PM
IP: cache-2.spg.va.webcache.rcn.net

hi everyone, just found out today I have a truck with a lot of plants coming in on monday (in the neighborhood of 1200 or 1300 shrubs and evergreens). EEoiy I'll be "feeling" my age after handling all of them!

Here is a cute story that someone passed on to me, the email saya it is a "true" story, but who knows for sure, anyway I enjoyed it hope you all do too!!

> > Guess who's coming to dinner :-)

> > It was a fact that Lyndon B. Johnson, (United States President) would, on occasion, personally call military offices and demand special favors. At one such time, he
is said to have called The Basic School, TBS, at Quantico and the conversation went like this:
> >
>TBS: "Good afternoon, this is The Basic School. How can I help you?"

>LBJ: "This is President Johnson. We're having a state dinner here at the White House next Saturday. I want you to send out two lieutenants to be escorts for my daughters."

>TBS: "Yes sir, Mr. President. Is that all?"

>LBJ: "I want them in their dress uniforms, tall and good looking."

>TBS: "Yes sir, Mr. President. Two tall, good-looking lieutenants, dress uniforms, next Saturday evening. Is there anything else?"

>LBJ: (Remember, LBJ was an old time Texan) "Yeah, don't send any darned Mexicans!"

>TBS: "No sir, Mr. President, no darned Mexicans. Will there be anything else?"

>LBJ: "No, that's all."

>Saturday evening came and two tall, good-looking Marine lieutenants showed upat the White House, resplendent in their dress uniforms.
>They were promptly ushered in to meet Mrs. Johnson
and introduced themselves as escorts for her daughters.

>She acknowledged their presence but said, "But you're
both black. There must be some mistake!"

>One lieutenant replied: "I don't believe that's
possible, Ma'am. Captain Rodriguez NEVER makes mistakes!"

(If this is true, it served him (and her for that matter!) right.)

Catch you all next time!


delphi - [cmiller@magiclink.com]
Twin Falls, Idaho
Friday, April 21, 2000 11:43:44 PM
IP: twin6208.magiclink.com

::picks up the large pieces of chocolate left by Katara:: "thanks, nice Lady!"


okay, on to responses:

<<<Missing SPOILER tag> I think the CR staff will have to sic Isafet on you.>>

boy am i thankfull that Fae can't affect Grendels {like me}...somehting about Zeno's Paradox being unresolvable....



Rodlox
Friday, April 21, 2000 10:24:30 PM
IP: spider-wo014.proxy.aol.com

This is kind of evil, but also darkly humorous and kind of relevant since someone mentioned Waco. I got this from GettingIt.com:

FBI Torches Elian, Family
BY STEVE ROBLES

MIAMI -- Attorney General Janet Reno ended her tenure much as it began today, ordering the FBI to attack the Miami home of Elian Gonzalez' relatives,which subsequently burned to the ground, killing all inside.

As an amplified voice deadpanned, "This is not an assault," armored vehicles crushed the north facade of the Little Havana home of Lazaro Gonzalez and pumped enough toxic gas inside to kill a herd of wild IMF protesters. At around noon a fire erupted that quickly consumed the Cuban compound.

After delaying firefighters for about 17 hours, FBI officials allowed fire trucks near the property shortly before sundown. Unfortunately, by then everything within its wraught-iron gates had decayed into a fine, volcanic dust.

"We at the bureau are devastated by this tragic turn of events," Reno said in a sit-down interview with a tearful Diane Sawyer. "We really thought it would work this time. Maybe the third time's the charm, as they say. The most agonizing part is that all physical evidence has been melted into the earth."

The gender-ambiguous top cop said she was unaware that it was the seventh anniversary of the assault on Mount Carmel, near Waco. "I thought it was just Hitler's Birthday Eve," she admitted sheepishly.

Echoes of the ill-fated attack on wild-eyed, maniacal, child-molesting, spittle-erupting cult leader David Koresh and his disciples abounded. Assistant Director Louis Freeh attempted to downplay the similarities at another sit-down interview, this one conducted by ABC's Head Dunce Cokie Roberts.

"Sure, it happened on the same day," Freeh maintained. "Sure, it involved tanks, tear gas and a mysterious fire - but other than that, I don't see the similarity. I mean, these were cigar-chompin' spics! They probably can't even VOTE for chrissake!"

Freeh said authorities were looking into the possibility that the Gonzalez' burned themselves with Cuban cigars and cheap rum.

Meanwhile, Reno said little Elian's tragedy-prone father will be properly compensated for his loss. "Regis Philbin has already promised him a slot on 'Who Wants To Be A Millionaire,'" she said. She stated she didn't know if Philbin would allow for international "lifeline" calls.

"We'll also give him one of our cool jackets that says 'FBI' in yellow letters on the back to take home to his native Cuba," she added. "We hope these tokengestures will help ease the pain of his loss."
Sev Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 10:13:12 PM
IP: cache-2.spg.va.webcache.rcn.net

Hi all!!

Boy, Pistoff sure set some nerves on end. I read his rant. I wont comment much on its content. I can't say that this was an unexpected development. For a man named Pistoff and known for his rants we shouldn't think ourselves exempt if we make his hit list. If he is lurking to find what our reaction is he will probably laugh his head off. By setting off a few tempers he will feel he has proved his point and continue on with his life. Fare thee well Pistoff, may fate cross our paths again.

Guess what everyone! It may have been an assignment for school, but it's done, a web page!!! It's not great, but it will slowly get better. Find out more about me and my alter ego. Mec didn't want his picture taken, so until my artist friend finishes the portrait, it's just me in a cloak with his sword. Speaking of swords, check out my little bro.! :) http://cc.usu.edu/~dgh/index.html
Mecord - [mecordlein@mailcity.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 07:51:49 PM
IP: usr62.mtwest.net

Three Gorges Dam > It's real. China has undertaken the largest and most expensive public works project ever conceived - the damming of the Yellow River for flood control purposes. When the dam is completed in several years, the largest man-made lake in the world will slowly form behind it, permanently submerging hundreds of villages and towns. And China is spending just about as much on relocating the thousands and thousands of people to new villages and towns on higher ground as they're spending on building the dam. It's a monumental task on par with the construction of the Great Wall... and all the consequences of it, both economic and environmental, will likely not be fully known until many years after the waters have finally stopped rising.

And speaking of monumental construction projects... an ex-coworker and friend of mine who had moved to Chicago was back in town today for the holiday weekend and told us that the foundations are now starting to be laid in downtown Chicago for the tower that will reclaim the "tallest building in the world" title for the United States. Climbing to 1,999 feet - just one foot shy of the limit imposed by FAA airspace restrictions - it would likely dwarf even the Eyrie Building.
Patrick Toman
Friday, April 21, 2000 07:19:47 PM
IP: 98ad47e6.ipt.aol.com

Winterwolf> I sent you an email, but it was bounced back to me. So, I'll have to ask this here - sorry...
you said:
"Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky> It sounds like she overreacted. I find these days you have to be extremely diplomatic in approach with certain individuals."

Were you referring to me? *blinks*
Jannie
Friday, April 21, 2000 05:45:31 PM
IP: 64-240-37-248.hou.port.mytelco.com

Aaron wanders in, dragging Brooklyn, who's been painted in alternating bands of blue, and has "Go New York" printed across his wings.
"Why are we doing this again?"
Because it's playoff time, and they need a mascot. Besides, I paid you didn't I? I wrote you a very nice mate in my ficverse.
"Yeah, and in a fic that won't see light this millennium."
I am not having the 2000/2001 argument with you again, so just wait over there for me until I'm done. Who knows, maybe we'll get to hang out with the Knicks cheerleaders.

Anyway.... Is everybody having a good Friday?

HBO showed The Matrix last night. That's kind of funny, in a sick way.

Mary Flanders> Welcome back! I wondered what ever happened to you.

FS>I thought the point of Oklahoma City was so we wouldn't forget Waco.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Friday, April 21, 2000 05:08:27 PM
IP: ppp-38.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Jannie > didn't say it was; just that I wouldn't have been surprised. Either way, though, I'm sure the results are exactly what was intended.

Reminders > deadlines are a'coming! For the May conspiracy issue of Sabledrake, it's next Saturday the 29th. For the next Avalon Mists, still got a month to go. Don't forget the Writers' and Artists' Challenge -- swimsuit edition! ; )

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 04:59:18 PM
IP: 14-111.009.popsite.net

I'm glad you all liked idea. Yes there have been X-Files/ Gargoyles crossovers before but there's no rule about the number of crossovers that can be done. I think the one I'm trying to start is fairly original. It's at the CFAN Other Fic Round-Robin board and that's what I'm linking my name too.

I have posted here on a few occasions before and I apoligize for just using it for an advertisement but I just wanted to make sure I could get some interest before taking the time to post it.

I really didn't have much else to say as I haven't read Timedancer often since the first season when I read all four series. I did skim this one and it just reinforced what I didn't like. The main characters are okay but just about everyone else is a total jerk it seems who knows enough about what's going on to use Brooklyn as a pawn while he's pretty clueless.

But as for some of the things I've seen in the comment room and things I remember with Gwen and Angela, well Angela did take her daughter away from her life for the about ninety years if I remember right. That's a bit hard to forgive I think. But while I read this I noticed Gwen say Angela had been the one to change things from the clan to the individual but Angela just wanted recognition not major changes in clan structure.

And for the amount of time not being enoughtto change things. One-hundred and thirty-five years ago the U.S. was stuck in the Civil War so things can change pretty quickly. One hundred and sixty-three years is really only a short time if you look at it from the perspective of how long the universe has been around.

Jason Barnett - [barnett@shentel.net]
Lebanon Church, VA, USA
Friday, April 21, 2000 04:49:37 PM
IP: ha07s092.d.shentel.net

Why I insist on credits: I do not want to accidently imply that I did more work than I actually did.

Me & Columbine: I'm not labeling them as 100 innocent. I can understand the motivations, though. I'm 100% against singling people because of clothing/size. The only thing I would be in favor of singling out people by is attitude and personality. If someone has the personality that is or borderlines that of being a bully, then I'm in favor of keeping eyes on that person. But you shouldn't suspend someone for subjective reasons: looks, perceptions of how the person is looking at someone, what the person reads, or what type of music a person listens to.

Winterwolf, I was thinking it was a good time for your character to enter my RP. I'm almost to the upcoming battle. Trust me, the battle will be long.

RP character: One goal with my RP is a consistent timeline/plotline. My intention is NOT to be closed with sharing my character or anybody else from my Universe into someone else's RP. If anyone wants me to borrow my character, I would like to know so I can keep from having future contradictions in my stories.

**DC CONSPIRACY SAGA continues**
DPH started off to visit Mr. Connect. He was wondering why Mr. Connect was depressed. He knocked on the door and Mr. Connect let him in.

"What's up, Mr. Connect?" asked DPH.

"Why do you reverse-age me?" asked Mr. Connect.

"I'm not ready for a battle with NCA yet. I do not have allies to help me in the battle yet. My only hope for an ally is in a vision I had," replied DPH.

"Hmm. You lack confidence in yourself and your abilities," replied Mr. Connect.

"But NCA killed a member of the third race and he is just human enough to have no vulnerability to iron. How can I, a mere mutant, hope to defeat him?" asked DPH.

"You can if you need to," replied Mr. Connect.

"Can you give me contact information on Self-ReBoot or Stable Operating System?" asked DPH optimistically.

"Ouch. Those two are absolute enemies of each other. If you visit with one, the other one wouldn't visit with you. As for how to find either one, I don't know. Tell me about this vision you had." replied Mr Connect.

"Some person - I can't describe him/her - told me to concentrate on NCA's weakness in order to defeat him. I haven't seen the person," replied DPH.

"Perhaps it is time to search for the person," replied Mr. Connect.
**END DC CONSPIRACY SAGA for now.
Daniel Paul Hightower - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 04:26:23 PM
IP: max1-15.cwy.cei.net

Wow the room really filled up last night! I was tempted to post while intoxicated last night. I've been told that I'm much more animated and funny once I reach a certain point. Sleep won out on the priority list. It didn't help that I had an hour-long train ride and walk to get home. I went out to celebrate a friend you just left one job for a better job. His last day was yesterday. Today he can recover from last night and Monday he starts the new job.

****TIMEDANCER SPOILER****

Excellent episode. I enjoy the way it deals with both Brooklyn and Sata's feelings for each other. I'm a little bothered that Brooklyn did not at least mention the scroll to Harthoth. The fact that Broadway and Angela would not even tell Sata that she would see Brooklyn again seemed awfully mean. Here's a thought, imagine if the files were sealed at Brooklyn and Sata's request after their Timedancing? That is something that could not be said to Sata so Broadway and Angela would have to take responsibility for it.
After they hatch, it seems that the twins will spend some time in the future. This will be interesting to see unfold. There are still five more years till the eggs hatch!

Airwalk> Hi Airwalk. Yeah, another person from the city. <Lex in Sata's 2159 flashback> I am curious about that too. Is this Lexington or a computerized facsimile or something else entirely? Brief nit-pick: I don't know if I'd call this a flashback. ^_^ <Sata mentions that the Twins were dying> Here IMHO I think she was trying to play on Harthoth's sympathy. It didn't work though, so she had to tell him the real reason. <it's Gwen right> I agree that was what I was thinking. All signs seem to point that way. <Brooklyn's behavior> Brooklyn's behavior was on target IMHO. He is desperate to be reunited with Sata and tries to convince himself the he'll do anything. However, throughout the episode he finds himself hesitating and doubting what will be done. The weird sisters were powerless. Isafet beat Selene savagely. Brooklyn realized he could not let anyone come to harm not even the weird sisters. Brooklyn is a gargoyle that protects. Plus once you toss in Isafet the chance of someone dying or at least being brought close to death increases exponentially. All these dances are pushing Brooklyn to his limit but the end does not justify the means.

Rodlox> <Missing SPOILER tag> I think the CR staff will have to sic Isafet on you. ^_^ Just kidding.

Joxter the Mighty> Broadway and Angela could say she will see Brooklyn again. That's all. Unless adding to the thought above, they were instructed not to do so.

****END TIMEDANCER SPOILER****

Jason Barnett> The intro you have looks great. I'd love to be a part of a round robin on that story line. I'm sure we can get a whole group on it. When are you planning on getting this going?

Alan "Ordell"> That was some ordeal. While they are trying to keep the peace, after reading that four of your notebooks were destroyed I have to say their actions were completely unacceptable. That is personal property. That would be equivalent to me going up to one of the officer's personal cars and redecorating it with a jackhammer. Reading through your notes and personal thoughts is a serious invasion of privacy. I can understand that they want to keep the peace. Searching and questioning are things you have to deal with in some places. Like if when go into a government building. To me the other things just seemed like they went out of their way to demoralize you.

It's like the Spanish Inquisition. KA-BOOM! No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! If you know what I'm talking about I'll just let the skit run through you head or barring that I figure Gside or maybe Wilek will feel honor bound to post if for me. ^_^

Kitainia> I'm glad your life is looking up. I've got you down for C, G and F.

Alan "Ordell"> Life is a learning process. We can learn from our own mistakes and the mistakes of others. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Fire Storm> I'll be sending you the larger pic after this post. I may have to use it as my new posting picture once it is in. ^_^

Skippy> Yikes. Sounds like they are trying to control the club. Members of a club should be able to do what they want. It's a shame that they have to force rules on you.

Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky> It sounds like she overreacted. I find these days you have to be extremely diplomatic in approach with certain individuals.

I hope everyone has a good weekend and a Happy Easter! Poll results will be posted Monday.

Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@exite.com]
Bronx, NY
Friday, April 21, 2000 03:39:25 PM
IP: 206.15.122.13

The Pistoff situation- They are just words. Nothing more. They weren't even put right in front of us. Regardless of if the link to Pistoff's rant was posted to rile us or not, it doesn't matter. Far as I'm concerned, his rant doesn't concern me, because it wasn't aimed directly at me. If it was, Pistoff would have come in here and announced it, or e-mailed everyone and told them about it. *Shrugs* Just words, just a rant. I don't care about what he has to say behind my back, he's entitled to his opinions. Various people will have their own opinions about it, and they are entitled to them. But I don't care for the direction some of these opinions are going. Generally when someone starts accussing, thats when a flame war begins. So, its all right to reflect on Pistoff's words, think about what he said to everyone. Just don't put any hate mail in the CR because of it, be it directed at Pistoff, Lady Maeve, or anyone else that may be responsible.

Like I said, I honestly don't care what he says behind my back, he made his opinions about me quite clear when he left. *Shrugs* Do what you will with the situation, just don't let it throw yourself into a passionate rage that Pistoff quite possibly won't even read anyway.

No CR Admin rulings on this one cause I don't think it needs one at this point, just my personal opinion.
Robby
Friday, April 21, 2000 02:29:12 PM
IP: spider-tp012.proxy.aol.com

Jannie> I didn't say that was Pistoff, in fact I'm sure that wasn't him.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 02:25:55 PM
IP: dialin-645-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net

Fire Storm: <I let her go to school with gold hairspray>
Dare I ask why? Halloween?......actually it was one of those spary on highlights. She has jet black hair and says that she wants to get gold streaks put in her hair like one of her older cousins. Being as she's only 10, and to young to start wrecking her hair with bleaches and hair dyes, this is a safer altenative. Besides, it washes right out.

More comments to possibly come later. however just in case I don't get a chance, I'd like to go ahead and wish everyone a Happy Easter, Passover, or whatever you celebrate at this time of year.

*heads off to sacrafice several large pieces of chocolate* =}....adios
Katara - [Katara_O@hotmail.com]
San Diego, CA
Friday, April 21, 2000 02:06:06 PM
IP: 98add049.ipt.aol.com

Christine & Greg> I can assure you it was NOT Pistoff who posted that link. I have a good idea of who it was - or at least who Lady M was a flunky for. However, I will not speculate nor accuse. I just know that it was not Pistoff. I don't think he's even seen all of this yet.

I'm not taking sides nor adding anything to the fire, just trying to at least put a stop to any speculation that is not true. :)
Jannie
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:46:57 PM
IP: 64-240-37-16.hou.port.mytelco.com

Christine> I was thinking the same thing myself about this Lady Maeve. It's not Pistoff because the IP on that thing is from AOL, and I don't recall Pistoff's IP being from AOL. Hmmm
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:23:45 PM
IP: dialin-1161-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net

Doug> No problem. I always stick by my friends, and I consider you and Kit to be friends as well as the rest of the CR in spite of occasional disagreements. My support is there friend.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:19:21 PM
IP: dialin-1161-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net

****** BITCHING AHEAD *******

Oh, now this is silly ... I had e-mailed Pistoff just before I came in here and now there's all this "Lady Maeve" nonsense ... we can talk about not blaming the messenger, but let's also stop to wonder -- who _is_ the messenger? Am I the only one here who wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was Pistoff himself indulging in a bit of subterfuge to make sure eveyone got a chance at reading this latest? Or it's also possible "Lady Maeve" is one of his enemies wanting everyone to see just what he's been up to. Either way, the whole purpose of that message, done under an alias, was to stir things up again. Sure, the word would have gotten around other ways ... but the way it was done was a deliberate thing done by someone with an agenda -- getting us riled up again. For that, I'm more than willing to blame the messenger, for that part of it at least.

As for my reactions to the rant, I've already as I said e-mailed him before I even knew it had suddenly become a CR issue again, and I don't plan to go into it all over again.

****** end bitchiness **********

Fire Storm > believe you me, something like what you mentioned would only make me run even _faster_ away from the movie theater!!!

Jenna > my first wedding was an SCA event, my Dad's second wedding was a Civil War one. My family thinks we're both nuts, but interestingly they say that Dad got it from me. But while neither of the marriages lasted more than two years, the weddings at least were quite fun!

Update > I will be posting the first of the Dissidents stories, "Passages," hopefully today. As well as adding a few pics and stuff. Stay tuned!

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:17:19 PM
IP: 07-151.009.popsite.net

so much so = so much hate and anger. Sorry.
Doug
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:04:08 PM
IP: cache2.gw.utexas.edu

<Doug enters, visibly calmed down> Sorry about the rant last night, everyone. SJ has made some very good points, and I feel I should apologize. To all of you. <sighs> I'm sorry. Now, as SJ encouraged, I will not say anything more about this. Thanks to Denis, Greg, and those others in here who have given me their emotional support, I appreciate it. I do know, however, that the whole mess that sparked that rant last night was my fault as much as Pistoff's or anyone else's, and therefore I'm still pained. That's the way you feel when you lose a friend, no matter how you look at things, you still always blame a part of yourself. :( Maeve, if you're out there, I apologize to you too. I still don't like what you did, and I'm still mad about it, but now I'm not feeling as much so as I was last night. Sorry to drop the bombshell of my negative emotions sparked by Pistoff's rant into everyone's lap like that. I hope never to feel that I should do it again. :(

David G: Yeah, yeah, I know, but still it's very painful to think of it that way. Rude awakenings are always hard. :(

That's all for now, will post more on easier topics later. Jannie, since you asked, my e-mail's by my name. Bye everyone. <Doug leaves, but not for good>
Doug - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:03:13 PM
IP: cache2.gw.utexas.edu

**CONTAINS SOME CURRENT EPISODE COMMENTS/SPOILERS**

RODLOX - You wrote: [Remember what Gwen dealt with when she first struck out? She went down to where the former city was [at least] partially flooded, and had to deal with the gangs there.]

Battery Park was a swamp if I recall correctly. (Being from NYC I found that funny as hell.) But there was an interesting scenario set up with most of the population living in the towers and upper levels while gangs and tribes rule the old city. I hope that when TIMEDANCER finishes up its run (it's not open ended - it has a set beginning and ending after all) maybe the Staff will move towards a G2158 series. It's already set up the cast and some of the world for it after all.

You wrote: [I won't even comment on how the Native Indians suddenly volunteered to maintain their tribal lands rather than interact with the world, as historical events would seem to indicate.]

I wonder about that. Something big has to have happened to have so radically changed the world. Where is the Washington Government in all of this? I can't see them giving up most of central Manhattan to various tribes just out of the kindness of their heart. These are cold blooded politicians we are dealing with! :-)

Is NYC in TGS2158 independent? Has the United States collapsed? If most of the population has shifted itself uptown (literally) then don't the gangs position become more understandable? They are destroying generators perhaps in an effort to get people back to the Earth - it's not right to spend all your time with your head in the clouds. And what about the Gargoyles? Doesn't this make them sort of evil government enforcers, keeping Gangs down on the ruined levels while only the priviliged classes live in the sky? (It almost reminds me of some Star Trek episodes I've seen. Is this more Star Trek Syndrome at work?)

And about those tribes, I could buy it much more if it were revealed that they only took Native American tribal names and are really just people who decided to hang around on the ground or return to a simplier way of life in protest against the technology that has gripped the world.

You wrote: [I agree about Sudan. Unless somebody found a xeriscaping plant that produces edible fruits and kerosene {or the analogue} as sap, then it may be the Client State of another {more powerful} enonomic powerhouse.]

But the implication is that it together with Ethiopia and Kenya are independent economic powers or perhaps just three nations linked together to form one big economic powerhouse zone.

Now Kenya I could complete accept. Given some heavy investment I could see it developing into a big power in the region at least in 200 years. (The world is a different matter - but for East Africa or for Africa as a whole it's completely believable.)

Ethiopia is a bit of harder to pass off as a powerhouse in only 2 centuries. Right now the situation out there is a mess as far as I know. There's basically a civil war going on with most of the coastland provinces (Eritrea) trying to be independent. The situation there got so bad that for example Israel airlifted the entire Jewish community out in one big operation. Even with the war ending, the place is going to be a wreck. Now in order for other stuff to happen (like NYC being rebuilt) problems have to appear in other places which makes it difficult to believe that someone somewhere found the money and interest to invest in the area. If the choice is giving loans to rebuild parts of America or rebuild Ethiopia, where is the money going to go? (I could buy it if Kenya became an economic giant and then took Ethiopia into its sphere of influence. But on its own I have an extremely hard time believing it.)

Sudan is the hardest one to believe. At this point its an Islamic Police State that's been suppressing and killing its southern Christian and Pagan population. You'd need an outright revolution to just get that government out of power. It could happen but at this point as far as I can figure they have widespread support among their main population. So unless the UN sends an army in nothing is going to happen. And with catastrophe in the West (needed to restructure the world and NYC to look the way its been described) the attention is just not going to be there for them to want to do anything.

(An argument could be that Sudan simply just fell into a Kenyan sphere of orbit but Sudan is more likely to be in an Egyptian sphere than anything else because of the Nile connection. And with the situation improving in Egypt (something I mainly attribute to Harthoth, on its own right now in our world things are not good at all - after Mubarak dies there's probably going to be a revolution, I'm sure of it) Sudan is more likely to go isolationist than anything else. Kenya would be better off just turning its attention towards Tanzania than Sudan.)

You wrote: [Who/whatever the First Contact was with, they might have bought the country, then used it for their own purposes - which just happened to be to the nation's advantage on the global market.]

That's not a bad idea. But first there are much better areas for them to buy in Africa where they wouldn't have to deal with the kind of problems that Sudan would present them with. Naming Sudan just struck me as well wishing on the part of the Staff. Maybe I'd understand it better if someone drew up a political map for 2163 and gave some reasons that can be accepted as natural development from current conditions. But like this it's an off the scale stretch.

You wrote: [That the world of that time is currently _the calm_between_ the storms_. Between major wars, between major incidents.]

Possible. But it doesn't seem to be drawn that way. There is no conflict whatsoever going on in the world. Africa is being put out as a first world economic power and vacation spot. NYC is at peace with Humans and Gargoyles getting on like bosom buddies. New Olympus seems to love having Humans visit their island. This is a world that hasn't had a war in a long time as things are presented. Any post-conflict world is going to be in flux. If the people here were any more peaceful then they might as well be the Eloi from HG Wells THE TIME MACHINE.

Where is the conflict?:

What about North Ireland? That's been going on for hundreds of years. It's not going to end in JUST 163 years.

What about the Arab-Israeli conflict? A peace treaty with Syria isn't going to happen in my life. And the Israelis and Palestinians aren't going to be hugging each other anytime soon. (And that's without entering in all the various Islamic groups like Hamas and Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad that are just waiting to bomb the hell out of Israel just because its not an Islamic nation.)

What about the war of nerves between India and Pakistan? They both have nukes and have been eying each other for years. That's going to end in only 163 years? Only if they start throwing nukes at each other. (That's going to be a mini-cold war in the making if everyone's not careful.)

What about the festering hatred in South Africa? (I mentioned that in more detail later in my post.) That's not going to get resolved anytime soon. It's like North Ireland - there's too much festering hatred for it to end so soon and so peacefully.

What about the Balkans and the Caucasus? A thousand years of conflict and its just going to end in 163 years because Goliath showed up in the modern world and said everyone - Human and Gargoyle - should live in peace?

What about Afghanistan? What about Tibet? I could go on and on. Somethings might change and some things might shift but while things might improve in general its not going to get that peaceful anytime soon. Even in-between WW1 and WW2 - the lull between conflicts - it wasn't remotely peaceful. Why should that change here just because its the future?

And all this is without including new developments that might have happened - Does the US still exist? NYC seems independent and so its possible America has Balkanized which means that there's tons of new conflict. There are still tons of nations with nukes. There's a New Olympus full of beings who hate humanity. There are aliens to go to war with. Corrupt corporations too. And that's without getting to the fact that there's got to still be some Human/Gargoyle conflict. So why are things so peaceful and cheerful in this 2163 world?

You wrote: [The Unseelie Wars are over by then {we think}... war is one of the best times for new technologies and machines to emerge.]

But it was a secret war that almost nobody knew about. So how could anyone know that it was one of the best times for new tech to emerge? They didn't even know they went through a war!

(And on top of that it was also a limited secret war. No cities were devastated, there were no millions of soldiers dead - hell the Manhattan clan didn't even have a single dead warrior! There wasn't enough change in mainstream society to be able to produce the changes we've been shown in such a short time.)

You wrote: [How many wars have there been - within and between the Three Races - since the Unseelie War?]

How many major wars that could have transformed the world so radically in such a short time? I can see small wars everywhere. But in order to shake up the world to make SUDAN an economic powerhouse in 2 centuries there has to be something huge happening that will change the world. A bunch of little wars isn't going to do much - unless it was a bunch of little nuclear (or Slayers level Magical) wars.

You wrote: [<<There also wasn't much that showed us what 2008 China is gonna be like in TGS-verse, and yeah,>>

My guess: largely flooded.]

Given what FireStorm has added, I could completely see this as a developement that would wipe out China as a major player on the world stage and change the balance of power in many ways. It's an interesting way to go with dealing with such a major nuclear power.


TALEWEAVER - You wrote: [The future is a touchy thing. On one hand it flows on predictable lines but on the other there are unexpected surprises and surprises that build up. Could Africa be like that? Possibly and IMO likely.]

This is true. But usually when you examine the entire picture it stems from some logical point. Saying Africa could be the next economic boom area is a logical point. Saying that the whole of Africa is going to be great in 2 centuries is stretching things. I could see much of eastern and western Africa being better off in 2163 but the entire continent? Even with a few nations recovering and taking a few other nations into some sort of economic sphere (or just taking them over outright) there are still going to be large areas that will not be well off, forget about economic powerhouses. For every Kenya and Nigeria that could help the continent along, there's going to be a Libya or a South Africa that's not going to go along with the perfect idealistic plan. Utopia isn't going to happen in 2 centuries no matter how much we all want it too. I'll just be happy if things improve a bit - but Utopia is nowhere after all. Even New Olympus probably has politics and conflicts. To have everyone holding hands and singing camp songs in such a short period of time is completely unrealistic.

If the story had mentioned that Egypt was an economic powerhouse because of desert reclaimation efforts for example then I could accept it although I would still believe that it only managed to get that way because Harthoth just did some tweaking behind the scenes to make sure a pro-western government stayed in power after Mubarak dies since the likelihood now is that after he's gone there might just be an Islamic revolution.

The story does mention Kenya and I could easily believe that. That Mozambique and South Africa are vacation spots are also easier to accept if something major happened to Kenya. If Kenya takes Tanzania as a sphere of influence or just outright annexes it then that would either way give it a border with Mozambique which could put that government on alert. If a militant Kenya is around then Mozambique might try to just organize itself a bit, perhaps strengthen its army and the nature of its government. (In this area I'm flying a bit blind; I don't know anything about the situation in Mozambique while on the other hand I do keep my eye on the situation in the Middle East.) That could lead to stabalization and thus make it in the long run into a tourist site, especially if the Bahamas should happen to sink or be wrecked for some reason. And even if Kenya isn't militant then just having a stable economic power willing to extend it some economic and political influence might help it. So I could stretch to buy Mozambique as a nicer place in 200 years.

South Africa is a different story. It's one of those areas that isn't going to get much better in the next century. There is just too much hatred built up for only 200 years to help it. Maybe if the area were partitioned sometime in the future then I could accept some state calling itself to be South Africa to be a vacation spot. But even that would be a stretch. The area is probably going to stay an armed camp well into the 21st century. Even if the hate and fighting died down a bit by the mid 22nd century I still can't see it becoming a vacation spot.

You wrote: [Things change and in many cases very rapidly.]

Some things do change rapidly. But they usually need a reason for it to happen. Has there been a war or a collapse or something to shake the world up so radically in 200 years that everyone is happy with each other and nations aren't going to war with each other over anything, that they don't hate each other over something or other?

You wrote: [Why Africa, precisely because it is ppor and economically depressed now. Most people don't realize what a vitalizing force the underclass is. People who are poor don't want to stay that way. And they will do anything and everything to change that. The most useful inventions, vital social reforms and other changes often come not from the well-to-do but from those looking to make a place for themselves.]

I can accept parts of Africa. Kenya, Nigeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, and a couple of states near them that might fall into economic or political influence. That would be realistic (except for Egypt but I can except that because of TGS/Gargoyle=Harthoth influence).

But the whole continent? I can't see Sudan, Libya, Algeria (unless it falls back into a French orbit again), Zaire, and Somalia as becoming vacation spots or economic success stories in just 163 years. Its too optimistic. In 500 years, well that's a different story. But in 163? Unless there's another World War that would completely shift the entire world situation then it just doesn't seem like a realistic development.

**CONTAINED SOME CURRENT EPISODE COMMENTS/SPOILERS**
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, April 21, 2000 12:11:53 PM
IP: 180.new-york-23-24rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Fire Storm> Not just anybody can break into the city's web page, evidently just illiterate, uncreative people. I mean, if you're going to go to all the trouble to hack the firewall, at least do something interesting when you get there. Rewrite all the links so they go to the wrong pages. Convert all the text into Gungan. Something better than just a string of profanity and bragging.

Oh well...

More to the point, we don't have much security because that server doesn't have anything important on it. If someone managed to trash the entire server, all that would happen is that you'd have to call the department you wanted to talk to to get basic information. Besides, we have everything backed up, so after someone hacks it, we just restore it and trace their ISP.

One last thing - I don't need all the episodes, I just need a list of them in the order they ran. Disney is releasing Gargoyles tapes, and the packaging is different than the original ones. I just wanted to see if the episodes on the new tapes were in order.

Doug> You realize that your friendship with Pistoff was just an illusion, and all L. Maeve did was shatter the illusion, not destroy the friendship, which never existed since Pistoff hasn't yet learned how to be a friend.

Lady Maeve> That could have been done a bit more diplomatically, and it didn't really need to be done at all.

Injustice crew> I liked the new ep. I didn't read it from the fanfic archive, so I didn't rate it, but I would have given you 4 stars. I think Brooklyn was maybe a little weaker than he should have been. In the series, he tends to react to adversity by finding something to hit. Maybe Iris has softened him, though.

***** TIMEDANCER SPOILERS (Not very big ones, though) *****

Great episode. I loved it. We get to see Sata and Harthoth. The groundwork has been laid for a recurring enemy. I'm so happy. I can't wait for next week.

*** End Spoilers ***
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Friday, April 21, 2000 11:44:12 AM
IP: ip241.fort-worth6.tx.pub-ip.psi.net

What, no pictures of Vinnie in this CR either? Hrm. Wait, I'm a long time lurker, I shoulda known better.

**TIMEDANCER THOUGHTS**

Everyone keep noting that Broadway and Angela must be mean for not telling Sata that Brooklyn will come back one day... But maybe they don't know that themselves. ALl they know is that Brooklyn and Sata will eventually get back together. For all they know, Sata may have to go to China for that to happen, or Sata herself may need to take up timedancing herself to reuinite with Brooklyn. (Man made timetravel is apparently possible considering Trust No Future...) Perhaps they don't tell her because they don't know? If Sata stays in Manhattan all the time just waiting for Brooklyn come back, she might never reunite with him. She needs to be free to make her own choices to keep the timeline straight. If Broadway and Angela aren't sure how the two reunite, how can they simply tell Sata to hang on when that might be entirely the wrong thing to do? For all we know, Brooklyn never gets back to the future, and Sata raises the twins on her own until they're almost 18, then the three go on a timetrip and reunite with Brooklyn. Probably not the final outcome, but still...

While I'm on the subject of man made time travel... What ever happened to that Pain guy? Last we saw him in Trust No Future, he jumped into that man-made time portal and vanished. He ever going to show up again? I kind of liked the hyper-active guy, even if he was sort of a villain at the end of the story.

Now, as far as the future being TOO utopian... I kind of agree, but you also have to remember, we're seeing stories from Gargoyle points of view. Even integrated into society, there's a lot of things they miss out on. In modern day, except for the time when Demona showed Brooklyn the evils of the world, the clan mostly missed out on bad things except when supervillains are involved.

And then there's always natural disasters. In "Games without Frontiers" they mentioned the Great War in 2158... Considering that's the year Brooklyn dropped Sata off, we may have missed out on something.

The scroll- I don't know about this one. WHy DIDN'T Brooklyn show it to Harnoth? Hrm.

**END TIMEDANCER STUFF**

Katara- Nice ta see you back.

Walker Texas Ranger- It has a creepily catchy theme song and its fun to see Chuck Norris beat the snot out of dumb... Spits. I watch it on occasion.


Joxter the Mighty
Friday, April 21, 2000 11:30:27 AM
IP: spider-tp073.proxy.aol.com

****Kyryn walks in****

Since I haven't done this in a while:

Welcome to all the newcomers, welcome back to all the old friends, goodbye to all the friends who have left.

Ordell> They destroyed four notebooks of your written work?!? And they frown on you for reading on your own?!? My God, that sticks in my craw. I feel so sad that the current adult generation seems bent on confining or destroying the creative spark in the next generation. Somehow I can't help but think of Farenheit 451...

*sigh* Well, to borrow a quote: "They got the library at Alexandria, but they're not getting mine!"

Christine> Glad to hear that troubles are not as serious as you thought.

Jason Barnett>Welcome to the CR. Please do not post fragments of stories in the CR itself and do not make these the totality of your post. If you want to put a notification like you did, set it up as a link with the fragment being posted elsewhere using the url field option in the CR post form.

China in 2008> I think that Rahsaan was specifically dealing with the results of the Three Gorges Dam Project (I may be wrong about the name) that is currently being built. It is going to flood a number of villages and several major archeological sites as well as threatening the highly endangered river dolphin population.

Jenna> Okami and I did the same thing for our wedding (Civil War Theme). My parents fortunately took a hands off approach because they had been through the same problems with their parents. But we still paid for it all ourselves because we wanted to make sure that everything was the way that we wanted it to be.

Fire Storm> Library Security> I can't speak for Arlington, but a lot of it depends on who they've got running their systems and how security conscious that person is. A lot of city libraries don't have their own systems personnel. Instead, it's handled through the city staff and depends on the time they have available (library is usually low priority). When I was systems librarian for SWTJC in Uvalde, I had our systems locked up pretty tight because of the virus and mischief potentials with college students.

TGS staff questions> Gargoyles 2158? Well, logically it would follow Timedancer. I can't say more at this point.
Creative process> The staff does have an overall outline we are following for Timedancer. I can't say too much more. We still do individual breakdowns and story creation as we create each season. Hope that clears things up.

Copyright dates> Actually, no. Current copyright law (and I may be wrong here, since I don't have it currently in front of me) says that the copyright extends for the life of the author plus 75 years and can be renewed after that by whomever owns the copyright.

Skippy> Funny, things haven't changed. Okami left Starfleet back in the early 80's because of the same thing.

Clothing> Funny thing. I had a guy with a pink spiked mohawk wearing a generic t-shirt and jeans walk by me in the store the other day. He deliberately slowed down and stared at me, trying to provoke a response (I was dressed in typical business blouse and skirt). I looked at him and said, "Nice haircut, but the clothes don't really fit with it. You need something a bit wilder to match it and complete the effect." I said this with an absolutely serious tone of voice and expression. *grin* He deflated and said, "Thanks." in a quiet tone of voice. *grin* I never give them quite what they expect.

Whew! That's it for now.

Later All!

***Kyryn heads out****

Kyryn
Denton, Tx
Friday, April 21, 2000 11:25:08 AM
IP: 216.35.46.129

Alan> Whoa tough school. Makes me that I should mention something.

I wear a black trenchcoat, I have long hair, and a thin goatee, and I like dark literature. People have seen me drawing Gargoyles and other dark images (like Unseelie and the Shadows and Drakh from "Babylon 5"). And recently a teacher did something that really offended me. And I SLIGHTLY raised my voice to her and told her to treat me like an adult. No big deal, a lot of students do it. Well, when I got home I found out that I was suspended from school for five days, she thought I was threatening her, and was physically afraid of me. Other students have yelled and said worse things, but I'm singled out. I'm still serving that sentence, but since it was before a week vacation, I won't be going back to school until a week from today.

Doug> I'm sorry for the loss of Pistoff as your friend. I know that must've been hard on you. I was not bothered at all about what he said about me, it's when someone treats a friend badly that I get really angry, but I was really upset by the fact that you stuck by him and he betrayed you like this, for seeing that there are two sides to every story. Once again I'm sorry, it was my e-mail that got him angry at you.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 11:06:17 AM
IP: dialin-211-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net

Alan> Good God! I can't believe your school's gone so far! I complain about my HS and the pretentious steps it's taken recently, but it's nothing in comparison. Likewise, I have a friend who goes to another school, dresses in black clothes and reads dark RP-related literature. For this he's run into some troubles, but again, nothing so extreme. You should be able to sue.

As for Columbine, I agree that you can't blame anyone but those two kids for what happened. It wasn't peers, it wasn't music, it wasn't The Matrix.

What's disturbing, however, is the number of copy-cat incidents that have followed... which makes things more difficult to decipher, because it's not just one isolated incident.

The media> I admit that I tend to overzealously dislike the media, but I can't agree with Mr. Thrugg's defense all the way. It shouldn't matter what some twisted individuals (sorry if that refers to anyone in here) want to see or read about. There should be restrictions placed on the media. Celebrities should have, not more rights, but simply EQUAL rights. I also still think the media has had a hand in proliferating the string of school shootings, as well as all the rest of the crap that has come along with them.

Lady Maeve> Maybe I should've put this at the top of my post, so it stands out. It's something I feel very strongly about. Almost the sole reason for me posting today. I realize there are many hurt feelings, and I don't want to tell anybody how they should deal with that hurt, but DO NOT blame Lady Maeve.

What did she do?

She let you know of something that you otherwise wouldn't have known about. People come in here with links to outside pages all the time. If I'd found Pistoff's page, I would've shared it with the room. Since when is knowledge, in and of itself, a bad thing? As for her attitude, I believe it was intended as sardonic. If you must "let her off" then so be it, but IMO there is nothing to let her off from in the beginning.

As for Pistoff's rant... all I'll say is that it was informative. I hadn't known the whole backstory to the dispute that went on. Pistoff is lacking in two things: tact and a fundamental awareness of things called rules, the existence of which seem to escape him. But that's all, IMO.

Maybe I've already said too much... I don't feel I post in here frequently enough to earn an unconditional say in this. I always liked Pistoff (heh, he didn't like First Contact either...). After everything, my opinion of him really hasn't changed all that much. He's always had the tendency to turn justification and defense into more ugly things in the way he exercised them. It only hurts himself, though.
Entity
Friday, April 21, 2000 10:37:12 AM
IP: nic-30-c37-089.mw.mediaone.net

Some very interesting view points/opinions on dressing a certain way or "expressing" themselves.
I agree with a lot that has been said, but I'm also reminded that perception is a factor to be considered when one dresses away from the "norm".

Very good point that was made was about how when you dress outlandish (by today's society and acceptance) you draw attention to yourself. That is indeed very true. Don't be alarmed or appalled when negative comments are made. You chose to dress in such a manner that would bring that attention to you. All reactions are not going to be positive. I realize that there are many people who dress in not so normal ways that are very wonderful, kind, and considerate people - but first impressions really do count. I admittedly would make the assumption - based on one's appearance - on whether or not I would want to get to know someone. With the dark clothing, goth like attire, punk look, etc. comes a certain attitude that the person wearing it would have... not necessarily bad, but different from my own. We normally choose our friends by things we have in common. I have only chosen the dark clothing attire as an example because it was one that was stated here earlier.
The same would apply if a girl was dressed like a cheap two bit hooker. *shrugs*
No, we don't all have to dress in polo shirts, Dockers, dress slacks, etc. to be accepted. I wear what is comfortable and what I like - but I'm also in the realm of "normal attire". It at least gives people an opportunity to want to get to know me without the distraction or first impression of what I'm wearing.
Perception is the key word here though. You automatically give off a perception by just your clothing or how you express yourself by your hairstyle, make up, etc.
That's just the way life is. If you are comfortable with that, then by all means, dress as wild and far out as you wish to - but don't bash people because they don't know "the real you".
As far as parenting....Yes, we should give our children the opportunity to make choices and to learn to live with the consequences of those choices. However, we also need to guide our children in these decisions. Sometimes it IS just like our own parents used to say, "because I said so."
Children don't see the big picture - they are in their own small world and they look to us for guidance and protection.
We don't all have to look like clones - that's not what I'm trying to say here... I guess what I've been rambling and trying to say is that when we choose to dress outrageous or against the norm - don't be naive or offended if you receive negative feedback.
My son has hair to his shoulder blades and a pierced ear. Even though that is not considered so out of the norm these days, he is still prejudged on many ocassions. He realizes that and accepts that perception.... he prefers the long hair and I have no problem with it myself. It doesn't take any longer than an introduction to realize that he is not what their first impression of him really was. He is well mannered, soft spoken and very intelligent.

90% of the time, however is if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

I've rambled and I apologize. I'm also flustered, frustrated and in pain.... physical and emotion pain.

I consider everyone here my friend and it is a difficult time indeed for those of us on both sides of the fence.
Friendships are based on trust, common interest and disagreements ;) It's how we handle the disagreements that really show our true test of frienship.

Doug> would you mind giving me your email address?

Kit> thank you for your feedback :) Denis said that he responded to it and hopefully clarified some things for you. We do appreciate any and all feedback! *hugs*

*hugs Denis tightly* je t'aime mon Den
Jannie - [jgmiller@academicplanet.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 10:22:12 AM
IP: 64-240-37-16.hou.port.mytelco.com

*Warpmind enters, followed by his chibi family, who for the occasion are wearing sombreros.*
Gee, guess why they've been away lately? That also explains why some of my classmates recieved some very strange credit card printouts... :)

Pistoff's rant about the CR: *Reads, hair suddenly stands on end.* Yipe! I had *no* idea I, too, had gotten on his bad side like that... I better get that e-mail off right away, and hope he doesn't shred it first... He's harsh, rough around the edges, but, I'll go so far as to say he's at least partially right... *Ponders attempting to open diplomatic channels between the CR and Pistoff, for all due apologies to be made. And I mean all.*

Jason Barnett: Love your idea! But I think there was an X-Files/Gargoyles crossover done in an early edition of Avalon Mists... (Before Christine's time.)

Alan "Ordell": Gods, isn't there anything you can do about that? I mean, isn't there any laws against such actions, like reasonable suspicion, or something?

Gside: Ah, that was what I suspected... As I said, I haven't had a chance to see that movie yet, so... :(

Starsinger: Ayup, all this Lady Maeve did, was to provide us with this tome of fire; we ourselves were the ones dumb enough to actually open it. (Without properly chanting "Klatu Verata Nictu" first, even...)

Fire Storm: No, not Sir Not-appearing-in-this-film, but Sir Robin. Still, I'm not likely to use either... ;) And while ignorance is bliss, knowledge is just... well, it ranges from comforting, through irritating, to sheer Hell.

Well, that's about it for today... Later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Friday, April 21, 2000 09:44:25 AM
IP: maaloeytnb-gw.online.no

Before this situation becomes a situation:

As an aside to begin things, we can't really blame the messenger. Pistoff's comments would become common knowledge soon enough, so we can't really blame the person who first announces it.
However, I do kind of think it odd that the individual who announced it went on to name each and every individual who would particularly find it...shall we say "offensive". Hmm....as a passive-aggressive person myself, I must say that technique seems a little p-a to me.

I will ask this of all of you, and you may not want to follow this, you may not think this is fair, etc. If you disagree with the rant, if you have some thoughts about Pistoff or something to say to him, why don't you take a page from the book everyone's always quoting and SAY WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY ***PRIVATELY*** IN AN EMAIL TO HIM. If you truly want to "move past" all this unpleasantness, I ask you not to turn the CR, however temporarily, into all anti-Pistoff CR. If you feel you have to defend yourself, please resist the urge to rant and rave in here. I for one, do not want to hear it, and I'm sure there's quite a few others who don't want to listen to your thoughts on Pistoff at this point, no matter how "right" or "wrong" about him you may be.

Might I add that, even though the rant was posted, it wasn't specifically posted IN HERE. This may not matter to some of you, and it may seem like splitting hairs, but take that to mean you shouldn't spend the next few days in this CR talking about it in here. Even if you feel the need to defend yourself, maybe you should just take a page out of Kaioto's book and "not dignify it with a response".

Bottom line, please don't open any wounds. Even though the rant may have opened wounds for you, don't exacerbate the situation by continuing things. If you have something to say to Pistoff, send him an email.

I can't speak for Robby, but I'm sure that as administrator he would rather things not degenerate into an all out bashing of Pistoff (even if you feel he deserves it) or to have people foaming at the mouth, as that really doesn't serve the CR.
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 09:03:04 AM
IP: rob-106-02.labs.gmu.edu

Fire Storm> I think your right in your comments about the loss of these people and homogenity in the fandom. Being in Trek fandom,I see that a lot of that occuring inside the big organizied fan groups (Starfleet in particular)

Starfleet, the International Star Trek Fan Associaton, is a global organization of Trek fan clubs. The club I am president of also happens to be a chapter. Unfortunately,for the past few years I really wonder why we bother participating. We don't do anything with the other clubs (even the local ones) on a regular basis, and we hardly have any contact with other chapters. Pretty much they have this vision of turning fandom into the Lion's Club. They are a fine example of homogenous fandom, everyone in a starfleet uniform, all of them thinking thefandom revolves around them...

But what has really turned me off to Fleet is their attitude towards our club. I'd met with some ofthe local Fleet reps late last year and they were looking to outline this plan to revitalize my club. Apparently, the dozen or so people that were regularly active in the club wasn't good enough for Fleet standards. The Fleet guy was trying to foist this friend of his into the club as Vice President. While I wouldn't mind new members, I just was not open to their attitude that because we weren't doing it the Fleet way we were doing things wrong. Sowhat if we only meet once a month and don't have an organizational chart that gives everyone ficticious titles that mean nothing. We are happy as is and I really am not planning on changing simply to meet the needs of some irrelevant higher ups. So our club is on it's way out, we pretty much are going to let all our Fleet memberships lapse and just not bother with them anymore.
Skippy The Klingon
Friday, April 21, 2000 08:51:57 AM
IP: uv1cisco01-03.ultravision.net

Alan- I don't know you personally, but I'm sorry to hear about your personal problems. I think you are very couragous to speak with total honesty. I hope you will find this room a place to share your ideas, and make friends.

jenna
Friday, April 21, 2000 07:54:58 AM
IP: 1cust236.tnt5.houston.tx.da.uu.net

Apologies for double post... just responding to a couple things that came in while I was typing the last one.

Fire Storm > I think Crzy's away for the weekened visiting family, but I can answer your question. I've been to every Gathering, and no, Elisagoyle has never had the opportunity to attend one yet.

** TD SPOILERS **

I just wonder what Angela could have possibly done (or what Gwen perceives she did) that would make Gwen hate her so. I'd think Gwen's grandmother, Demona, would take the kid and knock a little sense in to her. If anyone knows what the pain of being scorned by your own child is like, it's Demona.

** END SPOILERS **
Patrick Toman
Friday, April 21, 2000 07:02:51 AM
IP: abda6eed.ipt.aol.com

WHOOPS! I forgot one thing!

Lynne:> Welcome here! Hope you'll stay for a while. For "Deadly force"...I'm sorry, but I can't help you. (I think I have the episode, but it is the Italian dubbing, and then I'd have a little delivery problem). Anyway, I see the thing has already been covered, what I'm glad of.

Sorry for 2nd post.
Shadowrider - [shadowrider@katamail.com]
Milano, Italy
Friday, April 21, 2000 06:55:26 AM
IP: h255-20-88.mi2.albacom.net

I guess I can take some small comfort (though not much) that I'm only refered to in the ranting on that page as "some guy." Small comfort indeed, since nearly every other close friend of mine in this fandom was mentioned by name and viciously insulted. And what I think galls me most is that so many people are getting attacked and having their characters slandered without any real chance to defend themselves. So I'm more than a bit upset right now... but I agree with Starsinger - I'm not gonna blame the messenger. As unpleasant as the whole situation is, I'd rather have been clued in on it now rather than later, after it's had a further chance to fester and ferment.
Patrick Toman
Friday, April 21, 2000 06:55:17 AM
IP: abda6eed.ipt.aol.com

Ya know... re-installing operating systems gets REAL old when doing it for the 5th time in a month.

Warpmind: <I'm not entirely oblivious to events around the world.>
Thats good. I know that there are some people that are unaware that there are homeless people.

Stephen R. Sobotka, Jr.: <I believe I'm the guilty party>
Yes, but can that be used in a court of law? :)

CrzyDemona: Did Elisagoyle go to any of the previous gatherings?
I can't rember if I met her or not.

Kyryn: <Published works that are 75 years old or older>
So, technicially, in 2075 TGS and every other fan work may be public domain?

Daniel Paul Hightower: <I won't list it. Trust me, it's bad.>
It can't be THAT bad... can it?
(Oh, wait! Now I remember my last job!)
Ok... it can be that bad! :)
<To me, the real way to prevent Columbine is to eliminate bullies>
Definately. If you take away all the guns and all of the knives (That event in Canada the other day), bullies will STILL hurt people.
In Junior High I was beaten up nearly once a week. No weapons, but beat up. Because of that, and everyone knew how that made me, everyone assumed I would blow up the school before we graduated. I mean, I had the motive and the means. But I didn't. Because I am not a bully.
IF we can eliminate the bully, the world would be near perfect. *IF*

Coyote: <That was a great game, even though it did annoy the hell outta me.>
I know... I could barely get to level 4! (Out of about 12)

Deals and Exchanges: Not bad... Two different time lines, yet same plot! Interesting

David G: <Does anybody know where I could quickly lay hands on a list of all the original episodes in order?>
Quickly? Ebay.
<Arlington Public Library>
How is the security on the computers that everyone can access?
I know that the computers at the local library have almost NO security! (Access to Explorer, TOTAL access to all files on most computers (1 secure directory on one of the servers at the main library but no restrictions on any of the other servers)

Christine: <I doubt there's a motivator on earth that could get me to see that movie.>
Ah... I see... That motivator would have to be a line in the credits like:
"Special creative thanks to Christine Morgan"
Right?

Wilek: <Sorry FS. He's kinda touched in the head. :P>
The REAL answer is because I asked too many questions!
<Oh no. :( Hope it turns out not to be too serious either.>
Same. Not only do I have to worry about my grandmother, I have to worry about my father!

Winterwolf: <Just pass me the details and I'll send it to you.>
Final version before you resized it. Cut, blurred, whatever. Just origional size. (Lm may have to make it smaller. I don't think much smaller, but I am not too sure)
Did you do it in Photoshop? (Just curious)

Airwalker: <Harthoth's wife. I'm just curious if anyone else agrees with me - it's Gwen right?>
That got me wondering about that too. I re-read Requiem and read that Gewn's hubby is not well liked. Maybe it is her.
(Unless it is the happy wierd sister... uh, no.)

<because the name of this series is TIMEDANCER and not GARGOYLES 2158?>
Which reminds me... Is the TGS Staff shooting for making the "Gargoyles 2158" series soon?

Aaron: <yesterday is the aniversary of Oklahoma (and Waco)>
Most people forget Waco. So I may be an extreamist for saying this (Ok... I AM an extreamist anyway), but I REALLY don't see why they had to do anything at the Branch Davidion Compound anyway!

Mecord: <It's Shakespeare's birthday! I don't know what age the old codger is so I just stuck in every candle I could find. :)>
501, I think. Or is it 401? All I know is that last year was the celebration on one of the hundreds.

Pistoff's Rant: I remember when CrzyDemona posted <at least he was smart enough to pass up that job at Pizza hut, huh?>
I am pretty sure that was meant to be a jest (although, with knowledge of what happened in the CR, not a very friendly jest), but I knew it would have been taken as a low blow. I definately saw it that way. It was from that point that I KNEW this would blow up into something VERY ugly?
<And Fire Storm, who pointed out that I was indeed being very civil before the mess flared up (and yes, I did see the support I got in there, and I appreciate it).>
And I only wish I offered more support publically and privately. Hindsight is SO 20/20. I just wished to stay out of the arguement.
I am glad that you are staying in the fandom. As of this moment, I haven't read any of your stories. That will probally change, though.

Everyone: You may disagree with what happened in this CR, you may disagree with Pistoff's rant, but I hope this sitiuation has opened everyones eyes.
The fandom is NOT unbreakable. In the past 6 months, conditions in the various CR's have made at least 4 people leave this CR! You may say that everything is ok, that the fandom is better without these people in here, but imagine how boring this CR and fandom would be if everyone was the same.
To take the Star Trek fandom as an example, imagine if everyone at a convention was wearing "standard" Starfleet uniforms. No imagination. But if you go to a 'Trek convention, what do you see? Everything from the guy with only Vulcan ears to Skippy to the Borg guy.
Even if someone is not liked, it is NOT a reason to not care if that person leaves. Without just one person, the entire fandom suffers from the loss of his/her special quirks.
I hope everyone thinks about this.

And yes, I did e-mail Pistoff this part of my post.

Jannie: <There are names of the victims engraved on the chair as well.>
Really? Well, thats good. At least the victims aren't just nameless faces.

Jenna: <I don't watch the news very often>
For the longest time I was a news buff. When I was on-line or whatever, CNN was playing in the background. Then I met LM and she finds the news depressing, so I stopped watching the news for a while.
But I missed the news and I try to catch it at LEAST once a day.
<my husband and I wanted to have a Rennissance theme wedding>
Sounds wonderfull! Do you have pictures?

Jason Barnett: <What do you think?>
I like. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the X-Files to participate.
If you did make it, how would people contribute? In here or via a free Listbot? (Hint hint, nudge nudge)

Alan "Ordell": <The two people in Columbine were crazy, it's apparent in the videos and notes they left behind.>
Which is why I didn't do anything. One of my favorite movies when I was 14-16 was Full Metal Jacket and other Vietnam/WWII movies. I LOVED war movies. I saw violence on TV all the time. My favorite video game was DOOM. I (regulary) downloaded copies of the Anarchist Cookbook and even memorized parts of it. I was FACINATED with the nuclear weapon. I listened to the songs my parents grew up with about drug use and some violence. Hell, I even had EXTREAMLY violent dreams where I disembowl and kill everyone in the school with my claws (I LOVE Wolverine!)
My thoughts are admitidly dark and I carry to myself. By these definitions I SHOULD have vaped the school. But WHY didn't I?
Because I wasn't crazy (enough). And I have rather strong morals. Something that the people who do stuff like that are severely lacking.

Mary Flanders: <I had been writing a long post and it just disappeared.>
I got sick of that too and started writing my posts in Notepad.

Rodlox: <my guess: largely flooded>
Mainly the Three Gorges Area (A massive part of China)
The best place to read about it is the September 1997 issue of National Geographic (The magazines in easy reach start at January 1998)
VERY good article, if memory serves me correct.
They are making the biggest resivour that will:
1. Endanger or make many species extinct
2. Destroy countless villages and ancient works
3. Is placed upstream of most of China's major cities
4. Is placed in a area of know earthquake activity, and some VERY strong.
This is NOT a very well thought out project, to say the least. They had to relocate several million people (Hundreds of small villages and a few large urban areas), are closing a VERY well used shipping lane, and is a MASSIVE ecological disaster waiting to happen (It is going to be a sesspool.)
All this because they want power, more water, and the ability to say "Hey! We built it!"

From Doug's post but not necessarly directed towards Doug: <<excuse my French>>
WHY do we say that? Is French a "Naughty" language?

Katara: <I let her go to school with gold hairspray>
Dare I ask why? Halloween?
<it's his choice and that he's the one that ultimately has to live with it>
My parents were mostly like that. Although they DID disagree with some of the stuff I did and the stuff I brought home (I was a trash picker), for the most part they complained but did very little.
But when we moved there were things I never saw again. They never asked if they could throw them away. They just did.
And because of that I am reluctant to trust them enough to not throw away the stuff I have left there. Even though I do NOT have the room here, I am probally going to take that stuff and bring it here so they do not throw it away because "i don't use it anymore" or "It was broken" or just plain "Why do you want to keep it? It's just junk." (The last one was their ACTUAL words.)

Warpmind: <is he one who only exists in the Monty Python movie>
Sir Not-appearing-in-this-film? :)

Gside: <If the FCC bothered, I'd be dead>
ONLY the FCC? :)

Starsinger: <People, I think you are being unfair to Lady Maeve. All she did was leave the book on the table. Your the one who had to pick it up and read it.>
Agreed. Don't kill the messagner.
<They do say ignorance is bliss>
Then is knowledge hell or chaos?

WOW! This post only took, what, 3 hours? :) Time flies when you are posting!

(Man, what is with my spelling and grammar lately?)
Fire Storm - [Night-Flame@usa.net]
Dearborn, MI
Friday, April 21, 2000 06:49:06 AM
IP: t3-75.visitus.net

Greetings to everyone. Not so much to say this time, I'm going to do quickly.

Gside:> Easter pie? I hope it is the same thing I call so (Here Easter pie is a salad cake with spinach and ricotta). If it is so…yes, I like it a lot. My mom prepares it in a divine way, and I could eat tons of it.

****WARNING - TD SPOILER****

Whoa! Excellent episode! Not only because we have seen Sata's point of view, or the exceptional quality, or the many things that remain untold (a promise of future, exciting developments), but for all these things and many more.
I could say more, but Airwalker has already covered it very better than I could (BTW, Airwalker: very good comment, I agree with many of your points, very well developed and written too. And I think Gwen is Harthoth's mate too…).
I also agree with Kitainia about Angela's and Broadway's behaviour with Sata, they really seemed to me a bit insensitive.
About Sata…intense character, indeed. She is a warrior who never trembled before a battle, but she is also a young woman who is going to raise two children in a world that is not her one and without a mate on her side to help her, and she's scared of it, so scared that she seeks a compromise with the evil, what she never did in her life. Very good development, indeed, and I wait for what the future will take to us.
The last three episodes (particularily "Giri" and this "Deals and Exchanges") have been really exceptional. I wait for more, and I know I'll have more than I ask.
Just a question for TD staff: as the series began (I mean the very beginning, the first season), did you plan everything was going to happen in the following years, in every detail? Or you simply decided some general lines?


****END SPOILER****

Lady Maeve:> OK, I've taken note of Pistoff's opinion about me. I reserve to myself the right to reply to him in a more appropriate place. I have just a question for you, if you want to answer: as you called our attention on Pistoff's last "work", did you have a purpose? Or you simply wanted to see our reaction? (No offense intended, I'm just curious, really, and I'm not enraged on you or so...I think it is better to know such things)

Niamhgold:> (BTW, your name's origin is very interesting) New Hampshire…I've been told it is a beautiful place to live in. A little Easter family reunion, huh? <smiles> I'm going to do about the same thing Sunday.
Shakespeare's party? If I was invited, I'd go for sure! It has to be a very funny thing! ;)

Jason:> A Gargoyles/X-files crossover? <makes a face like Homer Simpson saying "Hmmm, donuts…"> <recomposes himself> I think it would be an interesting thing…and your pieces were intriguing…

Kitainia:> Well…what can I say? I'm sorry I reminded you some painful memories (I know you said "no need to apologize", but I feel the need the same). I didn't want to seem uselessly curious and tactless, I apologize for that too. I'm also sad to hear that Snake is no more, he was a true man in more than a way. Anyway, he at least managed to live until the end the life he had freely choosen for himself. <a moment of silence for a man I'll never know, but that I admire the same>. I'm also glad to hear that Cobra is still on the road, I hope he'll stop following his path only as he will decide so.

Walker Texas Ranger: <"…when you're in Texas look behind you…'cause that's where the Ranger's gonna be!"> As I said, it is not my preferred series, but I watch it. Maybe the thing that disturbs me is that in there goods always win…I'm joking! ;) Anyway, I have to admit that WTR is a well-done series, with good actors and direction. Chuck Norris, then, is a good fighter and actor, very better than a lot of others.
"Easy Rider"? One of my preferred movies! Speaking of outcast movies, have you ever seen Walter Hill's "Warriors of the Night"? (Sorry, I don't know original title…it came out in 1979, anyway)

Alan :> I don't know you, but I'm sorry to hear you have gone in troubles just because of your way of dressing, the things you read and the music you listen. I usually wear dark or black clothes, not for political reasons (for sure I'm not a fascist or so…the opposite, more probable) but just because I like it, and I've never been in troubles for it. No offense, but your school's attitude seems a bit…paranoid to me.

Ok, no more for now (not that I can remember,a anyway) See later, all of you!

Shadowrider - [shadowrider@katamail.com]
Milano, Italy
Friday, April 21, 2000 06:46:26 AM
IP: h255-20-88.mi2.albacom.net

People, I think you are being unfair to Lady Maeve. All she did was leave the book on the table. Your the one who had to pick it up and read it. They do say ignorance is bliss.

Starsinger
Friday, April 21, 2000 06:41:13 AM
IP: proxy-622.public.rwc.webtv.net

People, I think you are being unfair to Lady Maeve. All she did was leave the book on the table. You were the people who had to pick it up and read it. They do say ignorance is bliss.
Starsinger
Friday, April 21, 2000 06:30:02 AM
IP: ts004d13.alq-nm.concentric.net

**More ranting, simply because I want to**
I have a friend. He's my best friend. His name is Craig. Hi Craig, if you ever see this. He's been my best friend ever since 7th grade, when we had gym class together and on the first day of school he asked me what type of music I liked. I would do anything in the world for him. He moved to Washington state in the middle of last year, and I felt my entire world had been crushed. Now, onto my story, which I hope won't make any of you think less of me. Please, actually, don't think any less of me.

So Craig leaves. He tells three people: me, my other best friend, Evan, and another close friend of him. That summer, it was weird. Let me explain. Picture last day of school. I'm all happy, I went to see my older friend graduate, and we go back to a friend of mine's house. I admit, I did acid. Not something I'm proud of, not something I'm going to look back on for the rest of my life. I wrote the whole story down inside a composition book and there it sits. I'll never look at unless I feel compelled to. So, I did acid, first time. Evan did acid, not the first time. Three other people did, and we stayed in my friend's room. Looking back on how I thought that summer, I know that I remember it as being fun. Of course it was fun. As Ewan MacGregor said in Trainspotting, "If it wasn't fun we wouldn't do. After all, we weren't stupid. At least, we weren't that stupid." Of course, he's talking about heroin, which I've never even considered doing. Anyways, so I did acid alot that summer, always with Evan, always surrounded by my friends. It was a way to get away from the terrors I felt in life. My grandfather had just passed, my grandmother had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, I hadn't seen my father in over three years, and my mother was having a nervous breakdown. So, I did more acid. No one ever got hurt, and no one felt any remorse. One day, I found a notebook where I had written my thoughts while on the drug, and it was filled with 50 pages about ham and cheese sandwhiches. At that moment, and I remember it clear as day, I thought to myself, "What the hell am I doing?" I didn't do acid anymore, and Evan stopped. My other friends eventually stopped, as well. I'm not really proud of myself for even quitting, because I simply saw what it was doing. Nothing life threatening happened and no one got caught. I just decided to stop.

So, please, don't suddenly come the conslusion that I'm any different than any of you know me as. I'm the same as I was when I first starting posting here, just older and more experienced. I later came to the decision that Craig was the person who held me together, and realizing that he was gone and I wasn't going to be able to see him for a while hurt. I hurt like i had been killed. I didn't sink into depression or tried to kill myself, and I realized all this after I had decided not to fry my spinal chord. I went on, like I'm still doing. My grandmother died in December from the cancer, I still haven't seen my father, but I know he's an alcoholic, and my mother is still having nervous breakdowns on a weekley basis. In short, I can't wait to get the hell out of here. Because if I can get away from it all, in short, it won't exsist. And I find a small sense of comfort in that. I also find a sense of comfort in writing, which is why TGS is so imprtant to me. All the people involved and all the people I talk to and plan with, and they know who they are, help me get through days, wether they know it or not. Now, I again feel like I've ranted enough and really haven't got anywhere, besides letting people know that I can't sleep and I had an odd summer last year. =)

Mr. Thugg - As for how I dress, I dress the way I do because that's the way I think I look good. Yes it looks dark and brooding, yes my hair is black (naturally), yes I own a trench coat (military green, people. Gift from my uncle, who's in the marines), yes my fingernails are frequently painted black. But yes, things are better than they were last year. I know that in December, when I move, things are going to be alot better, and that gets me through the day, as well.

Okay, I feel ranted out. Fell free to smack me over the head for running off at the mouth (or fingers, depending on how you look at it)...
Alan "Ordell" - [awaltrip@cableone.net]
Odessa, TX
Friday, April 21, 2000 03:46:57 AM
IP: ppp-100.ode.cableone.net

TD: Very good.
**SPOILER**I wonder what order those books go in. Are they by natural timeline or Brooklyn's. And if it's natural what happens when he's at the same time in two different places (at least one example so far). And there is still another Harthoth/Brooklyn sighting that takes place before tre 50s (I think) that we have not seen. And why didn't he whip out the scroll?**/SPOILER**

Mecord> Legalities: If the FCC bothered, I'd be dead. I'm estimating somewhere around 150 violations. To calculate for my entire suite (and Richton, he pretty much counts), you'd probably have to bump that number up by a couple powers of ten.

tR Mrs. Morgan> Thousand Acres: Yup. And stay away from the sausage. Too bad they didn't do an onscreen blinding again: "Upon these eyes of thine I'll set my foot," "Out, vile jelly!/Where is thy lustre now?" (III.7)

Warpmind> <<is he one who only exists in the Monty Python movie>>: Pretty sure that he is a Python original. The big thing with him was his cowardace. His shiled had a giant chicken as a heraldic symbol, and after the three headed giant, his minstrels constantly sang about "When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled. Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about And gallantly he chickened out. Bravely taking to his feet, He beat a very brave retreat, Bravest of the braaave, Sir Robin."

Aaron> <<[the Vietnam memorial] was considered a radical design when it was unveiled>>: That, and the designer got a C for the project in her class.

Bill's b-day: "For in my death I murder shameful scorn:/My shame so dead, mine honour is new-born"

Sigh.

And again.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Friday, April 21, 2000 03:30:02 AM
IP: gside.dorm.rutgers.edu

*The sound of rattling keys can be heard from outside the door. A few muffled curses and a loud "Doh!" can also be heard. The door slowly creaks open and a rather red and embarrased face peeks through the doorway. A vaugely familar looking cougar-mutate steps through and tries to hide the useless set of keys in her pouch. She looks around, seeing many of the old familar faces and a few new ones as well.*

Hi everyone!! LTNS!! Man, it's been so long, that I forgot that there AREN'T any locks on the CR door! lol. Man, oh man, has RL been kicking my butt lately. Between modem problems and having company, I've barely spent much time at the computer. I know I'm going to spend AGES trying to catch up with everything, but I did manage to read a few things.. so on to responses.

Christine>> glad to hear that your mom is going to be okay. I'm sure it's a big relief for you. I'll pray that she gets better soon.

Dressing differently>> I agree that people shouldn't be judged on outward appearances, yet unfortunately that's the way society still is for the most part. I've already butted heads with my former in-laws regarding how I let my 10 year old daughter dress. Her aunt and grandma feel that she should have short nails and only wear clear or pale pink nail polish. I let her wear any color she wants to wear. Heck, it's all going to come off within a few days anyways. They also think that she should be wearing clothes more suited to her age..that a 10 yr old should dress like one. My daughter is large for her age and I have no choice but to buy her clothes in the Juniors dept. Granted I don't buy anything that's going to be skin-tight or micro-mini on her, but they still frown. Let's not even talk about their reaction when I let her go to school with gold hairspray.

Personally I feel that I'm helping her instead of harming her. Instead of being sheltered and timid, she is becoming a confident young lady, secure in her choices. My son asked me what my reaction would be if he got a mohawk hair-cut and dyed it neon pink. I told him that I'd hate it, that I'd feel it would look stupid on him, but that if he ever did do something like that, it's his choice and that he's the one that ultimately has to live with it. It's my job as a parent to support their choices, not condem them. Even if my opinions and/or beliefs conflict with theirs.

*takes a deep breath* okay, that's enough rambling from me for now. Now you know why it's been so quiet in here that last few weeks. =p
Gentle glidings to all...ciao
Katara - [Katara_O@hotmail.com]
San Diego, CA
Friday, April 21, 2000 03:19:17 AM
IP: 98aad7dc.ipt.aol.com

**WARNING- THIS POST IS A SERIOUS RANT AND SHOULD NOT BE READ BY THE FAINT OF HEART**

I'm sorry we don't have a Mad Puck pic in here like the main S8 room has. It would about express my feelings right now. <sigh>

"Lady Maeve": I don't know who you are, but I hate you. You have shown me things about someone I hoped never to have to know about. Until now I considered Pistoff my friend, and now, thanks to you calling to my attention the content of a page that I have enjoyed in the past, I don't anymore. I've never had a grudge against Pistoff, contrary to some people's opinions. I know from that rant you showed me that he probably holds me responsible for a lot of the pain he had in the recent flame war that resulted in his leaving here, I thought that might be true even before I read it. Despite that, I always considered Pistoff a good friend of mine, a decent person, someone I liked and would not mind introducing my kids too. I also considered him a good writer whose work I admired and have been inspired by, both that in his fanfiction and that in his various rants. There were some problems I had with the guy, but I could ignore them as I believed he was basically a good person and also a friend to all who deserved it. Thus I was happy and proud to call him a friend of mine. Even after his unfortunate departure from this place, I felt that way. Honest to God I did.

Now, reading your post, and that rant, I'm sorry to say I don't feel that way anymore. I read the rant in its entirety, I tried to think about it and what could have brought it on, I tried to look at it from Pistoff's side of things, I tried to be sympathetic, but I couldn't. Why not? Because I was reading the words of someone I thought was a friend, and not seeing the words of a friend. Instead I was seeing the words of a <excuse my French> selfish son of a bitch who for all intents and purposes told me and many other people I call friends to go fuck ourselves. In doing this he selectively ignored all the feelings we had expressed in sympathy for him throughout the crisis to which the rant refers, all the things we had to consider in responding to it, and all the qualities of friendship we still feel for him now. Or felt, until we read his words to us. <sighs> I don't know what to say in response to that rant, I had honestly hoped never to have read it. But I have, and when I did, God help me, though I tried to remember the friend I still considered Pistoff as, all the things I liked about him, I couldn't feel anything but hatred and rage. A man I thought was my friend, who I thought was a good and decent person despite his faults, had snubbed me and several other good friends he had, for all time. And why? Because in one crisis, we refused to be fully on his side from his perspective, to kiss his ass and say he was right, to damn the woman who had wronged him to the deepest hell and crown him as king on the throne of ultimate infallibility. Well, Pistoff, your ego may have been bruised, but the fact is, you weren't the only friend of mine who got hurt in that crisis. Nor you were the only one who had the potential to get hurt by the flame war if it went on. I was on your side, man, completely. I hated Crzy's comments to you, and I wanted to hold her down so you could beat her up. That is the honest truth. But the problem is, though, more than I wanted to see justice done for a friend of mine, I wanted something that could hurt all my friends stopped. That is why I was willing to support the actions of the CR admins in the flame war, and why I was willing to do anything- betray my pal GXB's trust by posting his private e-mail, ignore your pain to concentrate on trying to calm us all down, and many other things as well- to end the conflict and the hurt. I also have to confess, I felt sympathy for Crzy in things. Greg Bishanky made me feel that, so did your words to her and the responses she gave (frankly I felt she couldn't have said anything else given what you said to her, I didn't say it then but I say it now). Feeling like that, I could not totally support you in my posts. I wanted to see things ended peaceably, but I didn't want to betray myself, my own feelings, or any of my friends, in doing that. That was why I tried to stay out of your little flame war, and when I got involved try to make peace between us by trying to show us all the thoughts each participant had when they made the comments they did. You were my friend, man, yeah, but you weren't my friend. I did the best I could to be loyal to everyone in here, and try to help them as best I could. If you felt snubbed and hate me just because I wasn't completely on your side to the exclusion of everyone else, well, phooey on you! Fuck you too pal! Before now I considered you a good friend of mine, I had despite the crisis you could still be that. And now I do not want to ever hear from you again. EVER. You are not the kind of person I admire, even if you were once were. I wanted you to come back here, man, I would have forgiven you. Now I don't know if I ever want to see you again. Yeah, if that rant is how you feel, you may not give a damn, but I do, man. I cared about our friendship. I cared about you. I am crying now, because I have lost a friend. Because it has been revealed to me that a man I thought was my friend is in fact a jerk who apparently cares only about himself and not other people's feelings. Who is selectively blind to those feelings, who never considers them and whines "poor me, poor me, I got abandoned by all the people I thought were my friends! I am infallible, I was never at fault. They're all at fault, it's them, it's them! They're terrible! They can all die for all I care now..." Was that what you wanted to communicate through your rant? Because if so, you were successful. It's how you made me feel. <sighs> And I don't like feeling this way. Friendship is not about just getting people to stand up for you when you have problems, it's also about standing up for them, understanding their feelings, and being a friend. You have the mind to do that, Pistoff, I know you do. I've read your writings and your posts. Why you have refused to do it, when you had as good friends as you did, I do not know. You may no longer care about us, but I still care about you, or I wouldn't be saying this now. I don't care if I make you angry with this, you've made me angry and I want retribution. At the same time, I still care about and miss my friend. I don't think I'm the only one either. <sighs>

As for you, Lady Maeve, whoever you are, you have cost me a friendship that was very important to me and put me through more painful and emotional nerve-wracking than I can describe. I don't know who you are, but damn you, DAMN YOU for doing this. Denis, a friend of mine whom I know has also been Pistoff's friend, recently made a post in which he said he wanted us not to hold grudges against Pistoff. I agreed with him, holding no grudge and hoping that one day Pistoff and I could get back our friendship. Now, thanks to you, that no longer seems as much of a possibility. I don't know what you hoped to accomplish by showing us that rant, but I'll tell you what you have accomplished. You have shown me a friend was not a friend, you have made me feel very sad and very angry. I don't think I'm the only one you've made feel that way either. Kitainia, my girlfriend, also feels very angry and sad. So much so that she does not know the words to respond to Pistoff's rant, nor is she sure she should give them now, she is so mad. We both considered Pistoff a friend, we had hoped that the crisis that drove him out of here, that cost us a friend, that hurt so many of us in ways he has apparently refused to consider, was behind us and would still be when he returned, as we all hoped he someday would. Now thanks to you, we can't feel that way anymore. How we can feel, how we should feel, I don't know. I'm angry right now, very angry. I thought Pistoff was my friend and the words he said to me, the emotions he displayed, have hurt me more than words can say. At the same time, because I cared about Pistoff and still do, I feel very sad. Sad for him, that he has refused to be the friend to us that we were to him, that he would not even spare a thought for understanding our feelings; that he was so wrapped up in his own pain and his own idea of his own infallibility, his own ego if you will, that he destroyed our friendships and made us all feel pained just to ensure his self-esteem remains intact. I am mad at Pistoff, but I don't hate him. I pity him. I feel sorry for him. I am disappointed in him. I don't know if I can forgive him yet, but I am sure I'm willing to consider the possibility if he'll just reach out to me, apologize, try to be my friend once again as I tried to be to him and everyone during the crisis that sparked his rant. I don't hate Pistoff, even if he hates me now. You, though, I do hate. I hate you for making me feel this way, for making all of us feel this way feel like it, for destroying the idea of a friend we held in our minds. I hate you for doing this, even though I don't know why you did it. If you'd tell us your reasons, maybe I could try to understand them, but the way things are now, I can only assume from your earlier post, that you are someone who hates us all and enjoys causing us this pain. The kind of person who would do that to someone (anyone, not just me and my friends) I can not help but despise and hate. I hope you're happy, whoever you are. Next time you come in here, please do us the honor of not calling yourself a lady. If you ever come in here again.

That is all I have to say on this for now, I hope I don't have to say more. I have lost a friend tonight, and it is going to take a lot of time for me to come to terms with the pain of it. Pistoff, if you're out there, I hope you've read this. I hope you can see the thoughts and feelings I have fearlessly and honestly expressed on your behalf as well as mine. I hope you'll understand them, and see that what you expressed to me in that rant was not justified and take it back. I hope to hear from you again someday. I hope, despite this, we can be friends again. I hope....

**END RANT**
Doug Elder
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:55:32 AM
IP: pool-207-205-144-185.dlls.grid.net

Mr Thugg- hmm intresting comments. I must say the one thing I think that I disagree with you about is your last comment regarding that how people dress is a distaction. I think it sometimes can be seen as people showing who they are, and perhaps some people just like to dress a certian way, or do because of other reasons. I think this shouldn't be seen as a distraction, rather it should not matter one way or the other- what is inside should matter. (again, I am an idealist.)

One of the biggest issues this brings out for me is that of conformity. Now I do have alot of hang ups here, personal hang ups. My mom, I love her, but she is very concerned with what the "neighbors and coworkers" think, and often pressures me not to be myself but to conform for the sake of not making waves, and making my life easier.

For example- my husband and I wanted to have a Rennissance theme wedding. She was dead set against it, afraid that she would appear foolish. She was embarrassed-and the fact that I was marring someone outside of my own ethnicity and social class did not help. Essentially, she said that because she was paying for the wedding-she should have the final say so. So we, Mike and I, payed for it all- and alot of friends and family helped. We did have the wedding our way, and her coworkers came- and guess what- they loved it. Once it got their aproval, it was okay for my Mom. And I think that is what really stung for me- my opion didn't matter- her peers did. Mine was secondary.

My mom, I love her, but she really pressures me to not live "outside of the box". Alot of it is maternal instict-not wanting to see my hurt-- but conformity has it's own pain and it's own price- your soul.

I'm not saying that when you go to work in a office you should paint your hair blue- but overall we should look deeper- I'm all for looking and acting "professional" -- I've been told by many bosses and coworkers that I am very "business first". But my job is not my life- and when I leave- I don't think about them very much. I live my own life- not to rebell- but because well, it makes me happy. If there is one thing I want to encourage in my kids it's to think for themselves. There is a little baby bunting I saw once for a girl in pink that said "forget cute, I'd rather be smart".

For me looks have not mattered very much- some of the most "fierce-looking" people have contiained the most gentle and noble souls- and some of the most beautiful appearnaces can hide the most vicious personalities.

Well this turned into a very long ramble and rant.. but as I said, it is a personal hang up of mine
jenna
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:48:38 AM
IP: 1cust61.tnt7.houston.tx.da.uu.net

<<2150s-60s future in TGS is WAY too perfect and utopian. Does the world of that time have any problems, and when are we going to see them? Rodlox has mentioned a few, but since it seems like the world is ignoring them, it just feels wrong. They will be developed soon, I hope.>>

actually, i thought of another one too: that the world of that time is currently _the calm _between_ the storms_. between major wars, between major incidents.

the Unseelie Wars are over by then {we think}....war is one of the best times for new technologies and machines to emerge. how many wars have there been - within and between the Three Races - since the Unseelie War?


<< There also wasn't much that showed us what 2008 China is gonna be like in TGS-verse, and yeah,>>

my guess: largely flooded.

{probably at least one major Chinese colony off-world}.

Rodlox - [Babnol@hotmail .com]
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:47:07 AM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

Columbine> I agree with Alan's comments below. Wherever you go every kid is going to encounter teasing and experience being excluded (though some to a greater extent than others). Every kid probably encounters naughty movies or video games and doesn't come up with the same crazy, diabolical machinations that the Columbine kids did. There was something wrong with those two kids or something wrong with their family. Getting picked on is just a part of life. Everyone gets picked on and eventually picks on someone else. The people who have too difficult a problem dealing with bullies, I think, need more help than the bullies themselves. Now this is coming from someone who was picked on a lot in Junior High, and recovered quite easily, so don't think I don't know where any "nerds" are coming from. I think some people use the abuse of bullies to turn themselves into victims when they should be using it as motivation. Becoming a victim isn't going to help you.

Another point I wanted to talk about was the media. I am currently a journalism student and have worked at several smaller, local newspapers. Anyone who blames the media for over exposing an issue or anything like that doesn't have a very good grasp of what journalism is all about. While a journalist's job is to gather the facts and present them objectively, the news that newspapers contain is still a commodity that must be sold. In order to sell, journalists have to give people what they want to read, not what they should read. Take, the MOnica Lewinsky controversy for example. Probably newspapers ran a couple of stories about it, and noticed that their sales increased dramatically. Thus, they are encouraged by sales to continue the Lewinsky coverage. People always blame the media for blowing an issue out of proportion, but that isn't true. The media doesn't choose what is newsworthy, the public does. You may abhor how journalists delve into the private lives of celebrities, but the truth is probably every one here would rather read an article about the true father of Melissa Etheridge's baby than an article about starving societies in Ethopia. That's not a condemnation or anything. That's just reality.

Style of Dress- I'm sorry that Alan got picked on for such superficial reasons, but I could never understand people's motivations for outrageous dress or hairstyles. People'll say they're expressing their true selves or something like that, but you don't express yourself by how you look. I guess this is very existentialist, but your essence is defined by your actions and your words. Dressing outrageously only serves to distract others from your essence, so why do it if for no other reason than to get attention? I can't really blame the police officers for targeting Alan. ALthough it is wrong, they are paranoid and worried, and their intentions hopefully are in the right place.

TD- last two stories were excellent. Keep up the good work.

Mr. Thrugg
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:24:53 AM
IP: pbd0078.urh.uiuc.edu

&#%!@&^#*$%%^@&^$*&$^%@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had been writing a long post and it just disappeared. GRRRRRRRRRRRR.........>:/

I'm going to summerize what I was going to say before.

The Cuban boy is going to get screwed up by the media attention he's getting.

My photography class is getting on my nerves and it's getting hard to develop my photos.

I found a Ranma 1/2 fanfic website that's as simliar in orginzation as TGS. It's the continued story of Ranma and Co. But now they're in college. And Ranma and Akane are married. Posted the link if you're interested.
Mary Flanders
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:18:30 AM
IP: adsl-63-195-144-108.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net

Whoo Hoo two papers are done and delivered.....Next Week finals.

Remember when we where trying to remember the good ole cartoons from the 80's? My brother found a great link
http://www.hotyellow98.com/tooncentral/
one the C.O.P.S You can listen to the theme song, of course my troll of a brother wouldent let me visit the dungeons and Dragon's link until her moved his caracass,, but anyways click my name and you when you do ,take a trip down memory lane.
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:07:59 AM
IP: user-37kaovn.dialup.mindspring.com

<-- "This may be Shakespeare's birthday, but he'll never be as old as me." :) (Sorry, had to try this at least once.)

**RP COMING AT YA**

In a room at the Tiki Motel, seventeen soldiers in the uniform of Zale's militia sit tied and handcuffed, most glaring at the two Ravens guarding them while the others try to bear their plight and get some sleep. "You know, you guys don't have to sit there," Tom tells them. "You can talk about anything you want, we don't care." "Yeah," Elena agrees. "Maybe if one of you mentions to another the location of Thailog's secret base, we'll let you go." She and Tom exchange a grin. The soldiers simply keep glaring, and a few break into laughter. "You think we're gonna betray the cause?" one asks. "For what?" "If we keep with the cause," says another, "Thailog takes over. And I want to see that, know what I mean?" "What's wrong with the world as it is?" Tom asks with a frown. "What isn't?" asks Lieutenant Leah Howell, the highest ranking of the prisoners. "We have poverty, chaos, corruption, greed, prejudice, hatred, need I go on? Thailog's going to force the world to conform to his order, eliminate all the bad things. He's got the intelligence to do it, and the resources. We follow his charisma, waiting for the orders to do as he commands. Why don't you agree with him, join us? Surely you don't believe the world is a better place now than it would be with Thailog in charge." "We treasure our freedom," Elena says with a frown. "Freedom," Howell shakes her head. "Look at all the problems freedom has caused in the world. Prejudice, hatred, bias, selfishness, violence, poverty, chaos, corruption, they've all grown under freedom. Why no one is sure. According to the General, it's because no one really knows what freedom means and most of those who do aren't willing to spread their knowledge. Thailog is going to take the privilege of freedom away from those who can not handle the responsibility. That is just about everyone in the world today." "What makes you think that?" Elena frowns. "Oh, lady, please," a black soldier named Mansfield rolls his eyes. "Do we really need to explain it? Just look at the newspaper. You got kids shooting each other, parents refusing to acknowledge they didn't raise 'em right, everyone blaming each other for the world's mistakes and nobody caring to try and solve the problems. People just want to keep the lives they have now instead. Thailog's going to solve the problems, he's going to fix the world. That's why we follow him." "Yeah," adds an English soldier called Sneed. "Why don't you blokes join us instead of tying us up?" "Are you gonna keep talking?" Tom asks them. "Cause I am not listening to you, okay? I am not listening." "That's not the way it sounds, boy," Howell laughs. Tom lets a growl flow out from between his teeth in response. The soldiers break out into laughter. Elena is about to try and calm them when the room door opens. "We're here to relieve you," Bardic says, coming in with Lloky just behind. "An old man and a little girl are going to be guarding us?" Mansfield gasps. "Oh, geez, don't make me laugh." "Sleep!" Lloky yells, her eyes flashing. Instantly all the soldiers fall unconscious. "They won't wake till I tell them," the dragon child turns to Tom and Elena and says. "Go get some rest." "Um," Elena frowns, "are you sure you can guard them effectively." "We can," Bardic assures her. "You saw us in dragon form outside." "Oh," Tom grins. "Then I guess there's no problem. Come on, El, let's get some rest. I got a proposal to make to Kit and Doug in the morning." "If Doug's memory is back," Elena reminds him. "Oh," Tom nods. "Right." He sighs and the screen goes blank.

**END FIRST BIT OF THIS POST'S RP**

Greetings everyone. <elegant bow> Don't know why I felt like doing that just now, but I did. :) Good news to all, my life has calmed down and become a bit easier. Two more weeks before finals, school's going okay, and I'm out of the depression I got into earlier this week by dredging up old memories of times gone by (times I'll always remember, even if they're still painful when on the mind :). No one who brought up those memories needs to apologize, this is just the way things are. <sighs> At least I'm feeling better and over the residual shame of them now. Once again. :) No IMO good movies worth watching that are coming out this weekend, unfortunately, but at least I have a lot of good reading to catch up on. I'll comment about some of it below.

Lexy: Welcome back again. Hope you're feeling good. Glad you and Kai will be seeing each other soon, enjoy the time together, okay? And don't feel bad about having it, there is no reason. <grin> I don't know what else to say in response to your post, sorry. Oh, I did like your creativity demon about Brooklyn and Toucan Sam. L.

Nightwalker: Welcome back! I am sorry to hear your life hasn't improved, but at least you're trying to enjoy it. Just keep a positive attitude, okay? Sooner or later, all will be set right. At least, one can hope and pray that it will. :) And if not, one can always find a non-harmful way to cope. Good luck finding one for yourself, as well as in the new place you'll be loving, and with your family and relationships. Hope you'll keep coming in here so your friends can help you out. :)

Jaden: You're welcome. Good luck wherever you end up, and hope you come back soon. <grin>

Starsinger: Good luck with your eye, glad it's healing and hope it keeps up. That Demona story you mentioned sounds like a good explanation for the loss, just don't ever go putting on a mask with three red slashes and swinging a Quarryhammer at anyone, alright? :) <L>

Cyborg: Welcome back briefly, hope you can soon return again. That's all I'll say for now.

Niamhgold: Don't worry, there's no shame in delays and procrastination. I ought to know, I indulge in them all the time. :) Hope you will get back to writing soon, I like your work and hope to enjoy catching up on it this weekend. Thanks for the goddess explanation, and again for the support. :)

Mecord: Thanks to you for your support too (and same to everyone else who gave it). I agree with you about Dragonlance, the heroes of it were very diverse and interesting characters. Pity so many of them had to pass out of life. Oh well, they'll never fade from memory. :)

Shadowrider: Thank you most of all for the support, you said the most to me. I enjoyed hearing it, don't worry, I know you meant every word. :) Yes, the times discussed were brutal, they had many painful consequences. They could have been worse too, I was lucky the tree branch staked me in the stomach, not the heart like I thought it might. I could have hit the tree head-on without that damn branch breaking my fall too, broke my spine, never walked again. Or my head could have hit the tree and cracked open. <sighs> As it was, I broke half my ribs, fractured my pelvis, broke both my legs, and smashed my left arm up something awful. The branch missed my spine, but it tore up my intestines and my uterus during the puncture. Before I passed out, the pain was immense. Then there were two months in the hospital, four months in a wheelchair with heavy casts, an additional three months of crutches, and a possible lifetime of having no kids. <shakes head> I'm lucky to be alive, and glad for it, but I'll always be feeling the consequences and the shame. <sighs> Such is my lot, and the same lot of all who suffer. It's friends like you, Doug, and everyone else in here who make the pain easier to handle, and the lessons it brought me easier to remember for the rest of one's life. :) I too hope I never lose the strength and courage I've gained. :)

Walker Texas Ranger: I like it too, especially when I see the bad guys get what's been coming to them. Yeah, yeah, I know the show is somewhat repetitive and more than a few people out there don't like it, but I will always be a fan. Just like of Gargs. :)

Green Baron: Glad to have your support also. I don't doubt you could get through the same experiences I did, you strike me as a very strong person, but at the same time I hope you never have to suffer them. :( My friends are indeed still in contact with me, the ones who are still alive anyway. Some of them have unfortunately passed on since I left them, two in a motorbike crash, another (Snake) in a barfight, and another got run over by a truck driver pepped up on drugs. <sighs> Still others from the gang have been incarcerated for various offenses (barfights mostly), and many of the ones who are still alive have given up the biker life and settled down. Cobra, his wife, and three others are still on the road, last I heard from them they were in Idaho and had just left Seattle where they'd gone to watch the WTO protests. They were heading for the Dakotas next. Hope they all stay alive and cool for a while longer. Their lives may be imperfect and dangerous, but they're good people nonetheless and excellent friends. :) Funny you should mention Easy Rider, I have seen that. And I enjoyed it, right up until the tragic ending. Midnight Cowboy is an outcast film I like better, but Easy Rider was pretty good.

Stormy: <makes toast> Yeah, to survivors and the ones who are survivors but still fall to the mishaps of life. The latter we shall always miss, even though they're gone. :) Good luck to you in your life, thanks for updating us on it and hope you'll soon come back. :)

Fanfics: No real comment on this issue from me. I'm one of the many who enjoys reading it, so I'm too biased to make a real judgement of everything. I don't like flagrant plagarism such as what that jerk did with Christine's work, though, and I hope he gets punished. The work of those writers who do have permission for the concepts they publish and make statements attesting to someone else's ownership of their characters (what makes fanfic okay IMO) I will continue to enjoy. :)

DPH: Sorry to hear about your accident. Glad you're alive, and you appear to have learned the lessons. :) My hopes and prayers that it doesn't happen again. $ Um, hope you don't mind me bringing this up, but I have an important question about your RPs. Recently, as you know, you made the following statement: <Anybody reading this, do not borrow the character DPH without my permission.> And you seem to be enforcing that statement now. I don't like having to say this, but that troubles me. When Doug and I started the RP, the idea behind it was to create an interactive story in which anyone who posts in this room who wanted to could participate and enjoy. We hoped that through the RP we could all work out the problems of our lives, deal with them, and help each other through them, thus becoming better friends. To help facilitate this, we allowed to participate, including their own ideas, characters, etc, and even if we got a little mad at them for things they did we've never forced anyone out of the RP or yelled at anybody about what they did in it. We've also never told people that they can't participate in a certain section of the action, or that they can't use certain characters, just as long as they keep things in continuity and entertaining, etc. Your statement makes it sound like you don't want to do that, and I hate to ask you this, but if that's the way it's gonna be, can you please cut your RP story off from the rest of ours ASAP? If it's gonna be your exclusive thing and not something in which we can all participate and enjoy interacting, then I think it runs contrary to the principles by which this room's RP is done. I don't know if the other RP participants agree with me, but this is my opinion. You can think about it however you will, but I thought I'd get it out. Please know that I understand the reasons behind your statement, and I hope you will understand the reasons behind mine as well. I don't intend to make you angry, to force you out of here, to do anything like that. I just think, that the way things are with our RP and yours, it'd be best if your bits were excluded from our saga if you're going to keep anyone out of them that you don't deem worthy of joining in. Sorry if this sounds bad to you, it's just the way I feel. Hope it doesn't offend and you understand, I'll now shut up and get on to the next topic. :) Oh, and btw, you don't need to worry about giving anyone credit for your RP stuff, this post should make it obvious why Doug and I don't care whether people give us credit for RP characters and concepts they use in their RPs in here or not. Writing fanfics for some other place based on the RP or using our characters is another matter, but as far as the RP in here is concerned, as long as you stick with the rules, there are no copyrights. At least, that's the way we think it should be. :) $

Winterwolf: Put me down as a C, for same reasons as Doug and Kyryn. You can also put me down as an G and an F. Well, I may be kidding on the F. :)

Aaron: Film rights to my life? Hmm. Well, I won't say I haven't thought about selling them, but Doug pretty much summed up the reasons why I've never actually gone through with it and tried in his last post. "Runaway- The Lisa Telman Story" just wouldn't sell well with today's Hollywood executives. <disappointed growl> If it did, though, Doug pretty much nailed down my casting plans for the film. With one exception. I would not be played by Natalie Portman. Wilek's right that I don't have the accent, but it's not just that. The role of me, IMO, must be played by someone who looks the part, can act it, and doesn't mind for a short time living a life full of lots of deep character development bits mixed with the occasional kicking of bad guy butt. Yeah, I know Natalie is all that, but I have someone in mind for me who'd be even better. Cyber-cookie to whoever guesses. (Giveaway Hint- When you're living a life as hard as mine was back then, full of so many lessons to learn, if you want to survive and come out mature, you gotta have Faith.;)

SOROW: Have fun at STOMP! I saw it here last year and it was very enjoyable even if my ears did hurt during some scenes. :) Oh, and please remind Joe that he has many friends here who will miss him for however long he stays away and that we are praying for him in whatever trials he currently has in his life. Hope that he, and you, will come back soon. :)

SJ: <mutters> Rosie would make a better Ms. Dursley IMO. If you've read the books, you'll know why. <grins> And as for that X-Files finale, well, I suppose they have to leave the whole aliens and CSM, etc, plot wide open to be further handled by the next movie and the Lone Gunmen spinoff. The show used to be a cool story, now it's a franchise. And thus it has IMO declined in quality. <sighs> Oh well, at least Sunday's ep and the one before it that Gillian Anderson wrote were pretty good.

Christine: Your mother doesn't have cancer. <BIG sigh of relief> Good. Like everyone else, I am really happy to know about this. :) Double pneumonia, though, can be very bad. My own mother's had it, and it is definitely no picnic. You, your mother, and your family will continue to be in my prayers till things are over, hope she gets better real soon. And then takes steps to help her health stay up from that point on. You and your family, of course, will be helping her. :)

**ALERT- SPOILERS FOR LATEST TIMEDANCER STORY AHEAD**

Enjoyed Deals and Exchanges very much. The development on Brooklyn and Sata was excellent, and Harthoth was as always a very enjoyable character to watch in action. I especially liked the revelations about what he's done in his life, I didn't know he trained the Ishimura clan in martial arts and hope to someday see a story based on that. And to find out he and Gwen are together...:) Please tell me we are going to get a pic of Brooklyn's face when he finds out. Also liked the basic plot of the story, I agreed with Airwalker at first that Brooklyn shouldn't have so easily become endeared to helping the Wyrd Sisters, but then I read Revel's comments and went back and read the story again and now I think he's right. That knowledge made the character development Brooklyn underwent even more enjoyable to read. Good action in this story too and the writing was good enough to make the lack of pics okay. I did have a few problems with it though. For one thing, I agree that the 2150s-60s future in TGS is WAY too perfect and utopian. Does the world of that time have any problems, and when are we going to see them? Rodlox has mentioned a few, but since it seems like the world is ignoring them, it just feels wrong. They will be developed soon, I hope. I also had trouble believing North Africa had become an economic powerhouse, hope that will be explained in some future story. There also wasn't much that showed us what 2008 China is gonna be like in TGS-verse, and yeah, I know there wasn't supposed to be, but still it would have been nice. The pacing of this ep felt a little wrong too, it was a good story, but why was Brooklyn just suddenly thinking about Sata when he saw Harthoth and not what the guy was up to (anybody in the same situation, I think, would have known something was going on and tried to find out what)? Also, why didn't Brooklyn ask Harthoth about the scroll we saw in last week's ep? He mentioned the possibility to Blaise, wouldn't he have been thinking about it? <sighs> Last but not least, I too was on Sata's side when I got mad at Broadway and Angela for denying her the knowledge she so desperately needs. I wonder how they got to be such stubborn jerks. :( Still, very good and enjoyable story, I look forward to the next one. Keep up the good work, TGS staff.

**TIMEDANCER SPOILERS END**

Denis, Pistoff, Jannie: Read Injustice for All Part 3 and sent you a feedback e-mail. Hope you get it. :) And please, don't be mad at my comments, okay? I liked the story, but not everything I have to say is good. <sighs>

Jason Barnett: Very good creativity demons. Liked them immensly. Hope someone writes them into large interesting and enjoyable stories someday. :)

That's about all I have to say for now. Hope all my honest comments are read, understood, and responded to. Will see you all later. Have a good weekend, and happy Easter! :)

**MORE RP**

In the room where Jaden and Alchemist exploded, Shap and Shauna are sighing to each other as they clean up the debris, both still sad about Jaden's death and the loss of Doug's memory. "I can't believe Jaden's gone," Shauna sighs as she picks up the werewolf's axe and puts it in a bag. "We hardly even knew him and he saved his life so many times." "Vice versa too," Shap agrees. "I'd hoped to have known him better. But, now he's dead, and we're alive. We better ensure his loss wasn't meaningless." "Right," Shauna nods. "Thailog's gonna pay." She sighs again. "Doug better get his mind back so he can help us make it so. When that imp wakes up, we are going to question him brutally." "Or at least you are," Shap grins back. "I'm good cop, remember?" Shauna smiles and then bends down to pick up another piece of debris. "Hey," she frowns. "Look at this." Shap looks and sees that she is holding a broken piece of machinery that looks like a switch set to "Low Power." "You don't suppose..." he begins. "We better have somebody do a divination and find out," Shauna says happily. "Come on. This could be Doug's hope!" "I hope so," Shap nods in agreement, and they rush out.

Meanwhile, in Doug and Kit's room, Kit has just come out of the shower dressed in a hotel robe to find Doug sitting on a bed staring into space. "Are you okay?" she asks worriedly, walking to his side and kneeling as she looks him over. Doug turns back to her with a look that is blank at first, but then settles into a smile. "I...don't...know," he hesitantly says. Kit gasps and smiles. "You spoke!" she cheers. "That's...that's something. Do you remember anything?" She takes his chin and turns his face fully towards her. "How bout me? Do you remember me?" "I..." Doug frowns, trying to sort through the blank chaos of his mind and let the words come forth. "I...think...I...love you." Kit sighs in joy and hugs him, crying on his shoulder. Doug, not knowing what else to do, hugs her back. Kit frowns, feeling little emotion in the embrace. "You do remember what love is, right?" she asks, breaking off from Doug and looking at him. He frowns. "I..." Suddenly there is a knock on the room's door. "Just a minute!" Kit calls. "We'll talk more later," she tells Doug, then walks over to answer the door. Opening it, she finds Angel and Kate Lockley standing on the room's threshold. "Um, hello." "Hi," Kate says. "I'm Detective Lockley, LAPD. I need to ask you a few questions." "About what?" Kit asks, dreading the obvious answer. "This," Angel says, stepping to the side and with a sweep of his arm indicating the devestation of the recent battle. "We have a smashed-up parking lot with several destroyed cars and a tank, at least fifty dead bodies, and a motel manager wanting to sue the people responsible as soon as he discovers their identities. Doesn't that worry you?" "Well," Kit frowns, "yes, but I stayed in my room during most of what happened out here. I wouldn't know much." Kate grimaces. "Look, lady, don't feed us lies, okay? We know you and some friends of yours had a lot to do with causing all this, and were also responsible for a lot of the mayhem that occurred in this city recently." "For your information," Kit snaps, "we were stopping that mayhem! Same thing here, people were endangering others and we fought back in defense!" She sighs. "Sorry about the earlier lie." "Look, ma'am," Angel says politely, "we just want answers. We want to know who you are, what you're doing in this city, and what happened here. We have a right to know, right?" "I'd also like to know how much more of Los Angeles you plan to destroy before you leave," Kate adds with an angry frown. "None of it," Kit tells her. "None of this has been our fault. If you want explanations, come in, I'll give them. I'll warn you, though, they are going to take a while." "That's okay," Angel tells her. "We got all night." "Fine then," Kit steps aside to admit them. "Come in, I'm tired but I'll talk with you. And by the way, don't mind my friend. He was badly injured in the fight, is suffering from amnesia, and needs to rest." She points at Doug, who stares at Kate and Angel curiously. "I'll handle this," Kit says. "Just get some sleep." "Okay," Doug replies, nodding and lying down. Kit then waves Kate and Angel to the room's chairs, shuts the door, and sits down on a bed in front of them. She begins answering their questions as the screen goes blank.

**RP WILL SOON BE CONTINUED, BUT FOR NOW IT MUST END. BYE!**
Kitainia - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Friday, April 21, 2000 01:01:58 AM
IP: pool-207-205-144-185.dlls.grid.net

Daniel/Columbine > I've heald back talking about this for a while. No particualr reason, I've just voiced my opinion in real life so ften it seems fleeting. But, I'm bored... Daniel, you said "To me, the real way to prevent Columbine is to eliminate bullies. Bullies can make life unliveable for people and without ethics, the person being picked will fight back with whatever tools are available." According the rules of social darwinism, you can never eliminate a group of people, no matter what thier social standing. People who feel thretened are ALWAYS going to pick on people who are different, whether it be in thier standing or their appearance. I understand when you say that you were considered a "nerd".

Let me explain. I am a senior in high school. I live in a fairly large sized town in west Texas, where the events at other school have caused the district to emplimint some "rules" with a grant from the government. We name tags. Let me repeat that: WE HAVE NAME TAGS THAT WE HAVE TO WEAR DURING ALL CLASSES EVERY DAY. Do you understand how useless and costly these things are? They have a picture and are name, and if you don't have it on, they send you to the office and you pay $1 to get a temporary one. That's it. Anyone, I repeat, ANYONE, could walk into the school, get a temporary ID, and do whatever they wanted. We also have fences around the school that are closed most of the day, and cameras line the hallways and classrooms. If you are in the school, you are always being watched.

Let me explain futhur. I'm 6'1", 250 lbs. I have hair down to my shoulders. I wear dark clothes. I read (which in itself is frowned upon, I kid you not) dark literature. I've been called dark and brooding on police reports which I'll get to later. After the happenings in Columbine, I was asked, my students AND teachers if I was going to repeat the same class. I was PULLED OUT of my English class last year TWICE, and once this year, for searches of my car, locker and clothes, when nothing was suspected. When asked why, the administrators who pulled me out of the class said to the police officers present, "He looked at me funny in the hallway." I am serious. I was pulled out of class because I LOOKED AT SOMEONE IN THE HALLS. They took and destroyed four books of short stories I had written (including early drafts of some TGS stories I worked on, actually). They read through my notes and personal thoughts, for no reason other than that I LOOKED AT SOMEBODY. It's not right, and it's not justified.

I know that what happened in Columbine was, supposidly, something that had been years in the making. And I'm sure it was. But there is such a thing as simply crazy. People forget that. They blame it on media and then look at all the other kids who might watch the same televison show or listen to the same music and accuse them of trying to do the same thing. They blamed it on The Matrix, which came out only a week before the shooting. They blamed in on Bad Religion and Rage Against the Machine, two punk rock bands who's lyrics both promote tolerance and freedom. It not their fault. It the kids fault. They took something to far. They weren't able to realize that when somebody called them a name, it didn't mean that they hated them or they were evil. They were being kids. And kids do that. The two people in Columbine were crazy, it's apparent in the videos and notes they left behind.

I've ranted now on something that's been overdone and has really gone nowhere. I need to go anyways...

Oh, thanks for all the comments on Deals and Exchanges. Rahsaan worked on it more than I did. Anyways, thanks.

*storms out to go kick something*
Alan "Ordell" - [awaltrip@cableone.net]
Odessa, TX
Friday, April 21, 2000 12:35:18 AM
IP: ppp-2.ode.cableone.net

Why not?

I’m sick. Every muscle hurts from being dragged out to the weight room for the first week in my life. I have my own personal issues, and two final group projects both due the day after Easter as well as a full day at work tomorrow. I’m angry.

So I think I’m going to come out and be as outright inflamatory as I can.

And if that comes off as condescending, or holier-than-thou, or arrogant, I can only say this:

Tough-nuts.

I can be as much of a jerk as anyone else on God’s green Earth, and I’m well aware of it. I try not to be, and I try to obey the rules here as much as I can. I try to protect people from my emotional responses by thinking through what I say and such with barriers of logic and order. But I’ll never pretend to have ever reached or be able to reach my perceived ideals of perfection I aspire to. I’m not above failure in anything.

I’m sorry Pistoff feels the way he does, but this isn’t worth my time, or the room’s space to respond to. I'm sorry what happened happened, and I'm not going to waste the space trying to evade the blame. You want to blame me. Feel free. I’ll just let it lie here and rot, because the argument isn’t worth the price I or anyone else would have to pay, not even Pistoff.

And I’m not going to go crucifying anyone today of all days, not tonight of all nights.

I’ve had enough of that way, and the sorrow it brings. I’m tired of these bloody hands of mine, and I’m more tired of trying to wash them.
Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Friday, April 21, 2000 12:00:03 AM
IP: 141.133.151.90

Lady Maeve: what the frell?? do you _enjoy_ throwing rocks at a hornet's nest?

the way you typed it up, i thought Pistoff {oddly appropros 'name'} had written a fic or parody with the CR folks....but no. it was a mud-slinking {slinging?} curse-fest.

i have other comments, but will not post them, as they are inappropriate.

Rod
Thursday, April 20, 2000 11:27:00 PM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

I'm thinking of starting an X-Files/Gargoyles round-robin but I've started gargoyles round-robins before and informed people and had no one respond. Wasting time like that gets irratating so tell me if the below story fragment is something you'd write on and if enough people say it is then I'll post it to a storyboard and post the address here. If not then I'll just forget it.

"Take a look at this Scully. It's information I received about a group called the Quarrymen."

"I'm guessing they aren't just really obsesssive Beatles fans?"

"No, they're a vigilante group based in Manhatten that claim to protect the city from Gargoyles."

"I always thought the statues on churches were a little ugly but I don't think anyone needs to be protected from them."

"You mean to tell me that you haven't heard of the living gargoyles in New York, Scully were have you been?"

"I've heard of them I just don't believe them. Most of the footage I've seen has been on Fox. The same people who did that alien autopsy show a few years ago.m They're just a raings gimic."

"You'll be happy to know I may agree with you."

"May?"

"The first major sighting was a few years ago when a gargoyle shaped creature broke into a mueseum and stole a jewel called the Eye of Odin. It turned out to be robots. Since then the city has experienced severalcases of lost time which I'd like to investigate but I'm not sure are connected to gargoyles and then they got footage of the creatures recently being involved in the destruction of a cathedrel."

"So what are your theories?"

"One, these gargoyles are real and under the control of some criminal element and the robots were created to cover them up. Two, they're robots that have gotten steadily more advanced so that now they can pass as living beings."

That would be some very advanced robotics."

"Definately and since these Quarrymen seem to know so much about them they're the place to start."
******

Detectives Elisa Maza and Matt Bluestone were about a block from the twenty-third precinct getting a couple of hot dogs when Matt nearly choked on his.

"What are you doing here, Hacker?"

"I need to talk to you Matthew. You're welcome to come long, Miss Maza. This does concern your good friends."

The three of them walked a little bit away then slipped into an alley.

"Do you remember an agent in the FBI named Fox Mulder?"

"I remember hearing about him, I never met him."

"I know that, I made sure of that. But he's gotten information about the gargoyles in Manhatten and he's coming to investigate them. I just wanted to let you all know so you can warn your friends and I understand he's starting his investigation with the Quarrymen. You might want to get to him first and convince him they're the good guys not any sort of demons or aliens."

"Fine whatever."

"Matt, before you go I need to talk to you in priavte."

Elisa looked at Matt briefly then stepped away from the two Illuminati members.

"I'm surprised that you'd talk around Elisa."

"She's a potential member Matt. We'd love to have her after everything she did during that Avalon world tour."

"You know about that?!"

"Of course. She did a lot of good and we've known about the fey for centuries. But we're not in the habit of offering membership to people who'll probably turn us down."

"Elisa doesn't care about conspiracies, or power or anything like that so she'd be a tough sell."

"No, but she could certainly swing policy to help her friends but enough about recruitment policies. One of the main reasons I'm here is because of who's usually around when Mulder is. Thereis a group called the Consortium, they're rogue Illuminati. Mulder's one of there main projects, so where he goes they go and they make efforts to get in his way and make him think they've set him up even when they haven't. It's all mind games for them. But you'll need to watch out for them. The only Illuminatus who'll contact you during the next few days is either myself or Xanatos. If anyone else contacts you then call me."

What do you think?
Jason Barnett - [barnett@shentel.net]
Lenanon Church, VA, USA
Thursday, April 20, 2000 11:23:49 PM
IP: ha08s071.d.shentel.net

Daniel- your comments about columbine were very good.

Jannie- glad you posted about Oklahoma city- I did not hear of it otherwise- I know my bad, but I don't watch the news very often.


jenna
Thursday, April 20, 2000 11:06:00 PM
IP: 1cust59.tnt1.houston.tx.da.uu.net

Aaron and Coyote> thank you for remembering/commenting on the memory of such tragic events.
I was apprehensive myself when I heard of the chairs for the memorial park in OKC - until I saw them on television. To see the rows and rows of these large chairs - well, it brought a tear to my eye. To me, it represented a more human side - each chair missing a person. There are names of the victims engraved on the chair as well. I will hopefully be visiting this park on my way to Missouri this summer.

Thanks to those who have read the newest addition to Injustice and an advance thank you to those who are planning on reading it :) I agree with Denis and hope that you will enjoy it - and please do not hesitate to post feedback =)

Christine> great news about your mom and I hope that your dad will have just as good news!

goodnight and take care
Jannie
Thursday, April 20, 2000 10:15:09 PM
IP: 64-240-37-120.hou.port.mytelco.com

I've consolidated my RP's from last 2 weeks into 1 file. :) I haven't added credits yet. :( Just click on the link to visit the page.

Me & Columbine: I identify more with Columbine than with Oklahoma City bombing. I can understand what life could have been for them. (Warning: long) To me, the real way to prevent Columbine is to eliminate bullies. Bullies can make life unliveable for people and without ethics, the person being picked will fight back with whatever tools are available. I know because I had not so pleasant experience in school. I am still recovering from it. And most of it was because I was a 'nerd'. IMHO, the easiest way to prevent Columbine is to eliminate the motivation to kill. You can't do anything about teaching ethics; the only thing you can do is prevent name-calling (which I can't tolerate very well at all) and people being picked on. Kids will do anything to prevent TORTURE and frankly I don't blame them.
I'd rather prevent the motivation than prevent access to guns.

(trying to switch topics despite wanting to stay on same topic but running out of things to say.)

**TD SPOILERS**
Great Episode. Brooklyn loss of ethics seemed rational to me. But why hold back the fact that Brooklyn will return? One more question: when Brooklyn arrived, did Broadway and Angela arrange immediately to seal up clan history or was it sealed up before they arrived?
**END TD SPOILERS**

**DC CONSPIRACY SAGA continues**
DPH summoned energy from the ball to revitalize Mr. Connect and reverse age Mr. Connect two more years.

DPH arrived at Ms. Netlag's home. She had a gate surrounding her home. DPH pressed the button to get in:
"Who is this?" asked the voice coming from the speaker.

"DPH wants to visit Ms. Netlag, please," said DPH cheerifully.

"You can come," the voice replied.

The gate opened and DPH came in. A guard escorted DPH to the door to visit Ms. Netlag.

"At last, I get a chance to see the man who partially eliminated my future husband's clones," said Ms. Netlag.

"So that explains the change in alliances. How do you afford all of this?" asked DPH.

"As if you can't guess: exhortation. But you can't quote me on that," replied Ms. Netlag seriously.

"Go figure. What's up with NCA hating technology? it's irrational," asked DPH.

"NCA," she screamed, "I have nothing to do with him. He drives away many of my 'clients'. As for his motivations, who knows."

"One more thing, who is Self-ReBoot's counter?" asked DPH.

Smiling, Netlag answered, "Stable Operating System. He tried to get a job with Microsoft but Self-ReBoot had a contract with Microsoft to keep SOS [stable operating system] away. Professionally, Self-ReBoot takes too much credit."

"Thank you for your time," replied DPH.

A guard escorted DPH off the premises.
**END DC CONSPIRACY SAGA for now**
Daniel Paul Hightower (DPH - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.cm]
Thursday, April 20, 2000 10:02:42 PM
IP: max1-63.cwy.cei.net

Urgle...don't have much time to post...

Shadowrider: Well, I live in good ol' New Hampshire in the good ol' US, and we don't really get to do much for Easter. All of my festive relatives live in my old hometown of Brockton, Mass, and we don't usually get to see them. But my and my close family always get together for a little egg cracking and Easter dinner. And, the cool thing is...I don't have to dress up! Yeah!

Denis: I don't know who's marking the Injustice eps with one star...I'd rated them before and I went back to rate them at five stars _again_. Now I think they're somewhere at an average four stars. I really liked the episodes, and Pistoff has nothing to do with how I rate them (since, of course, I don't know him well enough to dislike him, and also because you'd earlier informed me that it was a joint author effort). So, I hope that makes you, Jannie, Jessie, and Pistoff feel a little better :-D

Happy Birthday, Shakespeare (Now, who'd like to see who would come to _that_ guy's birthday party? :O

Adios!


Niamhgold - [niamhgold@hotmail.com]
Thursday, April 20, 2000 09:42:23 PM
IP: lac-flex139.ncia.net

Deals & Exchanges> *Laughs maniacally* Ah to leaving wantign for more. Well, I'm no longer with TGS so I can't speak of what is. I can though speak to what I was thinking while writing.

Africa in the future> The future is a touchy thing. On one hand it flows on predictable lines but on the other there are unexpected surprises and surprises that build up. Could Africa be like that? Possibly and IMO likely. Why? Consider tht a scant 225 years, the US was a hick, back-water country now a superpower. Or Russia or China or even India. Things change and in many cases very rapidly. Why Africa, precisely because it is ppor and economically depressed now. Most people don't realize what a vitalizing force the underclass is. People who are poor don't want to stay that way. And they will do anything and everything to change that. The most useful inventions, vital social reforms and other changes often come not from the well-to-do but from those looking to make a place for themselves.

I have to go, but if I have more time later, I'll post again
Taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Thursday, April 20, 2000 09:28:46 PM
IP: ced60-112.ced.csupomona.edu

NEW!! on Pistoff's site. A tribute to the TGS comment room featuring (In order of appearance):

CrzyDemona
Christine Morgan
Christi Smith-Hayden
Shadowrider
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky
Robby the CR administrator
Toku Kaioto
Doug Elder
..plus many others not directly mentioned by name!

Take a look at what Pistoff thinks of all of you!
Lady Maeve
Thursday, April 20, 2000 08:34:32 PM
IP: 98cc296f.ipt.aol.com

**Mec wheels in a cake with lots and lots of candles**

It's Shakespeare's birthday! I don't know what age the old codger is so I just stuck in every candle I could find. :)

Lynne>> Your welcome.
Mecord
Thursday, April 20, 2000 07:28:58 PM
IP: usr47.mtwest.net

Long moment of silence, since yesterday is the aniversary of Oklahoma (and Waco) and today is Littleton. Also for Edward Gorey, whose work I have enjoyed since I was very young.






The Oklahoma memorial> Chairs? I dunno, maybe I'm just a traditionalist. Then again, I think the Vietnam memorial is one of the most moving things I've ever seen, and it was considered a radical design when it was unveiled.

Toku> Could we like swordfight, or balance crockery on our heads, or have a drinking contest, or *something* so I have a chance next time?

Still, round 2. I could point out that Greg created gargs, but he doesn't own them either, and therefor his consent, or lack thereof is academic, since he wouldn't be the one to sic the lawyers on us.

Gside> The Works! I know I shouldn't buy it, since I need to save for The Gathering, but I'm really tempted.

SJ> The Lucas/Berman thing would be funny, if it weren't so true.

Christine> Congrats on your mom not having cancer. Pneumonia is no fun, but it beats the alternative.

Coyote> Thom as a sadistic b'stard? For me, once he uttered the words "All gone bye-bye. Sorry 'bout that." he became a legitimate villain voice. But again, that's just me.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Thursday, April 20, 2000 05:21:58 PM
IP: ppp-100.tnt-1.sat.smartworld.net

Okay this is what I found onmy little theory.
Airwalker- YOu maybe right that Gwenyvere is Harthoth's mate. If you go back and read "Requiem" about three quarters of the way through there is a scene with Angela, Demona and Gwen at the hatching in the rookery. Although he is not mentioned by name (sneaky little...) there are a few clues to his identity. He is not liked by the clan, he would most likly not approve of naming their son Brooklyn, and upon deciding they might have to flip a coin or wrestle. It's probably just speculation, but hey, who doesn't like and old fashioned game of "Point the finger."

got to go check on the dryers.

Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
hell, tx
Thursday, April 20, 2000 04:04:49 PM
IP: spider-wg072.proxy.aol.com

Rodlox not Rodlex (takes typo with me into alternate dimention)
James Birdsong
Thursday, April 20, 2000 03:43:00 PM
IP: dt014ne2.san.rr.com

I can't speak for the others but I myself forgive you Rodlex and will not kill thee
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Thursday, April 20, 2000 03:42:09 PM
IP: dt014ne2.san.rr.com

PLREASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T KILL ME!!!!

i'm sorry...i forgot to put the ***TIMEDANCER SPOILERS*** and
***END TIMEDANCER SPOILTERS***

i beg mercy!!


Rodlox
Thursday, April 20, 2000 03:36:13 PM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

*Walks in smelling of bleach*

It's that time again, yes, laundry. I tell you it's a crime to charge .75 cents for one tiny washer and .50 for a dryer that usually, because it's too small, wont dry everything.

DOHA!

**TIMEDANCER SPOILER AND PERSONAL OPINION**

Anyhow on to more important things, Deals and Exchanges. In two words: Kick A$$! I was very impressed by the quality of the writing as we finally get to see Sata's side of the ball. Taking place five years after her laying she is still quite upset and unsocial, then again who wouldn't be. The writer makes a good point in her frustration that because there are so many unknowns she has a right to still be pised off. Not only does she not know if Brookly is going to come back or if his hard headedness got him killed, but I agree with Airwalker, the Future clan could have been sympathetic and said, "Don't worry, he'll be back." It's kind, it's vague, it could save her from an ulcer.
In his dealing with the Wierd Sisters Brooklyn's true Gargoyle insticts are once again revealed. "Gargoyles Protect." Despite the fact that he did exchange harsh with them and was willing to do "Almost" anything to get to his love, he is still a Gargoyle and his own goals and desires do not supercede the lives of those in danger, even if they are Fairy Folk. My opinion of why Brookly changed his mind so quickly is because he learning from the past. He realizes that all his "old friend's" gifts come with a price. For the lone gargoyle the price of another person's pain was too high even if it ment cutting down on his trip.
The characterization on Sata was certainly very intersting. Despite all her training, all her facades of a strong cold warrior deep in her heart she is like anyone else in that situation. Harthoth got her to reveal her true feeling of loneliness and made the exschange of information. One of the reasons I like Harthoth so much as a bad guy is because he doesn't fall under the traditional "I hate you all you all must die and I'll rule the world" type. He is dagerously cool headed and plays more mind games than anything else.
To sum up my babling, the episode barely falls under second best this season next to Giri. Rating 5/5.
***End***

I'm going to check up on a hunch wether or not Harthoth's squeeze is Gwen.

Later.

Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
hell, tx
Thursday, April 20, 2000 03:30:15 PM
IP: spider-th033.proxy.aol.com

btw, speaking of aliens, are those the same aliens [species] as were mentioned to Brooklyn on that mining station in Season One?


Rodlox
Thursday, April 20, 2000 02:50:07 PM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

Airwalker: so you're a Brooklyner, eh? :) just kidding with you.

actually, i agree with you on the utopian setting of the TGS future....but remember what Gwen dealt with when she first struck out? she went down to where the former city was [at least] partially flooded, and had to deal with the gangs there. {i won't even comment on how the Native Indians suddenly volunteered to maintain their tribal lands rather than interact with the world, as historical events would seem to indicate}.

and i agree about Sudan. unless somebody found a xeriscaping plant that produces edible fruits and kerosene {or the analogue} as sap, then it may be the Client State of another {more powerfull} enonomic powerhouse.

then agian, who/whatever the First Contact was with, they might have bought the country, then used it for their own purposes - which just happened to be to the nation's advantage on the global market.

Rodlox
Thursday, April 20, 2000 02:48:52 PM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

**COMMENTS/SPOILERS FOR CURRENT TGS EPISODE**

This is the first episode this season I think that reaches the abnormally high standard that TIMEDANCER established for itself in Season 2. That's not to say that the prior 4 episodes of the current season have been bad, not at all. They've all been interesting, well written stories. But I felt that they were missing something. I wasn't exactly sure how to describe it before I actually read this episode but now I know what it was - chemistry. The thing that made Season 2 so great was the chemistry between Brooklyn and Sata. And here in this episode you can feel that chemistry even though they are still literally in two different timezones. That was missing in the last few episodes. What I felt we were getting then was really just Brooklyn either wandering around in early Season 1 mode without any mention of his personal pain or something completely unconnected to anything else that was going on with him. I couldn't feel in the prior episodes Sata and his seperation from her hovering over him while he is thrown across time with vastly different objectives now.

But here we have that feeling of connection. Even though Brooklyn and Sata have no actual physical connection in what they are doing except that they both happen to be being manipulated by Harthoth, the feeling that they are connected on a deeper level seems present on every line, in every action. GIRI touched on this sort of connection a bit but didn't focus on it, instead turning into another story of Brooklyn just getting jerked around by magical beings.

TIMEDANCER in my opinion is not so much a story about Brooklyn travelling around time but is instead a cosmic romance between two souls as they grow together on a really, really weird journey. That's another thing that pops up here but didn't show up in the rest of this season (with the exception of a little bit of GIRI) and thus makes the beginning of this season seem much weaker than it was.

Something that did stand out to me in the beginning of this story as a bit cruel on the part of the 2163 cast is that they don't don't ever seem to want to tell Sata that Brooklyn is going to return one day. I understand that they don't want her to find out too much about the past which is alright but it's not going to hurt the timestream if they tell her that he's going to return eventually. They don't have to get specific about it but like this they know he's coming back one of these days and they are letting her wallow in anguish and misery. Are they trying to give some sort of payback for all the information she didn't give them when she finally came to the past and knew about the future?

Why is it that everyone sounds so formal when talking to each other in the Broadway/Angela family? I mean imagining Broadway and Angela both refering repeatedly to Gwen as Daughter instead of personalizing it by using her name sounds more like Goliath or Demona than Broadway and Angela.

Nova Gaza? That got me wondering. Is that a misprint that should say Nova GIZA and be in Egypt proper or is it just a new version of Gaza City in the Gaza Strip?

I think that the future that TGS has created in the 22nd century is way too utopian. If I had any doubts about that before this line really drove that home for me:

"A troupe of corporate managers marched past Sata on their way to the economic powerhouses of Kenya, Ethiopia and Sudan."

I could buy Kenya as an economic powerhouse. But Ethiopia and Sudan as economic powerhouses? I could possibly stretch my imagination to believe that Ethiopia might in two centuries be able to raise itself up from the various wars that are tearing it apart now and stabalize but an economic powerhouse? And Sudan?! In only 160 years? This scenario seems divorced from any actual logical buildup from current events. Was there some huge catastrophic event that completely changed the shape of the Terran political world? Or did the Staff just figure that it would be nice to give some third world area a nice future?

It seems so much like Star Trek Syndrome (have something catastrophic - 2nd Unseelie War - happen and then turn the area into a paradise especially after first contact which was implied as having happened already) and I think that keeping things at a realistic Babylon 5 approach would be so much better. Can't there be a halfway point between the two with some vast improvement but with things staying in a realistic realm?

As for Brooklyn's behavior I could buy his desperation in wanting to get to Sata and thus making a deal with Harthoth but I think that his turnaround when the spell was cast and the Weird Sisters were captured was a bit too fast. After all these are beings that he is supposed to hate. If he could hate Demona with such a passion for betraying him then how much hatred should he have for three beings who have kept him on the Phoenix Journey that he's been on for so long, a journey that at that point has stolen him from his wife and children? I'm not saying that he shouldn't have done anything but that what he did do happened too fast and sort of made the whole scene look less like him coming to a realization that the ends don't justify the means and more like he had to free them from Harthoth so that he wouldn't be sent back to Sata and thus prematurely end whatever plot the Staff has been setting in motion.


Three things did pop out to me in the course of the story:

1. The mention of Lex in Sata's 2159 flashback. It's got me really curious - it is really Lexington downloaded into the Eyrie Computer? Or could it be that it's just a computer program that's been designed to look, sound, and act like Lex but really isn't him - a sort of equivilent like Cyoti is to Xanatos?

2. In that same flashback Sata mentions that the Twins were dying. Is that a continuation of the Phoenix Gate magic plot that ended Season 2 and almost killed her in the last month's of pregnancy or was it something completely new? And will it eventually get touched on or will it remain one of those mysterious things that happened in the missing time between stories that we'll never get to see?

3. Harthoth's wife. I'm just curious if anyone else agrees with me - it's Gwen right?



I do have a question about the Geopolitical situation in 2158-up for the TGS Staff: If you were drawing up a map of TGS 2158 then how would you put the national borders up?

For example in Europe is the entire area a single unified confederacy growing out of the current attempts at economic unification or are there still independent nations?

Or as another example - how does TGS view the Middle East of 2158-up? Have some nations unified into federations? Is there still massive hostility towards Israel, if not from all states in the area then at least from some such as Syria and/or Iran? Is Israel still around? And has Egypt become economically better only because of possible influence and behind the scenes intervention of Harthoth?

What about the Third World? Does it still exist or has it shifted to a different area of the world? So instead of Africa being third world in many areas has that shifted to perhaps Russia and Eastern Europe or to Australia and the South Pacific?

And what about Nuclear Weapons? Don't some nations still have them? The future put together here seems way too peaceful in way too short a time. It seems very unreastic and I'm just curious if there are any warzones or hostilities between nations, some juicy politics that we just haven't been able to see because the name of this series is TIMEDANCER and not GARGOYLES 2158?

**END OF COMMENTS/SPOILERS FOR CURRENT TGS EPISODE**
Airwalker
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, April 20, 2000 02:25:10 PM
IP: 195.new-york-30-35rs.ny.dial-access.att.net

Star Wars: Episode 1> Of Course it's not finished! There's 2 more movies to tell the story in!
Matthew - [MattS1@aol.com]
New City, NY, USA
Thursday, April 20, 2000 01:47:21 PM
IP: adsl-151-202-112-128.bellatlantic.net

Nice to know Winterwolf (waves to green baron) Deals and Exchanges is one of the 3 best Timedancers stories ever. Maybe even one of the top best 5 TGS stories in general
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Thursday, April 20, 2000 01:20:57 PM
IP: dt014ne2.san.rr.com

Hey!

I haven't been able to get on all week. I had to pack up pratically my whole room. It's so PLAIN! I am actually sad to see a room so plain. Normally my room has posters and stuff all over it. Oh well, I'll have another room to decorate soon enough :)

Star wars ep. 1> FINALLY saw it. It was pretty good and this is coming from someone who hasn't seen all the rest of the Star Wars movies. It, however, left me feeling like it needed more. Like at the end, I felt like it wasn't finished, but they just cut it off. Okay, starting to ramble.

Welcome to all newcomers! Hope you like it here : )

*BYE*
silverstar
Thursday, April 20, 2000 12:47:41 PM
IP: l3p02.dav.mother.com

Lynne Like> Yes, I work for the Arlington Public Library.

101 E. Abram st is the address for the Central Library. Assuming you come in on Cooper, it's about two or three blocks west. It's the less ugly (IMHO) of two ugly brown buildings.

I think the Gargoyles tapes were going to the East Arlington branch, which is on the corner of Park Row and New York.

Deadly Force is one of two episodes on a tape called "Force of Goliath." (I just checked) The tapes aren't cataloged yet, but they will be soon.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Thursday, April 20, 2000 11:43:41 AM
IP: 198.215.20.3

Hi everyone. RL is keeping me quite busy this week. I want to read Deals and Exchanges and since I need to budget my time I'll keep this short.

SORROW and Joe> Hey Joe cast RL aside for a while and join us. It's bliss. The regulars in here are intelligent, friendly, and funny. We'll be here to welcome you whenever you are ready. This invitation extends to anyone who is thinking of posting for the first time.

Dave> Hi Dave. I must agree with my esteemed colleagues. The best way to go is keep reading and it will all come together.

Fire Storm> I'm happy to be of service. I have the original cropped image. The original untouched is serenity3.jpg. At what stage in between the finished and start image are you looking for? Just cropped? Cropped with a clean black background? With or without the slight blur? Just pass me the details and I'll send it to you.

Lynne Like> Welcome. Sorry I can't help you with your episode request. I'm starting to rebuild my library since most of it was taped over. L

Sevarious Jr> The Lucas/Berman or Star Wars/Star Trek was funny but scary too. On some levels it has a hint of truth in it, on others it is just off the wall. ^_^

Coyote the Bando and Fire Storm> Thexder was a fun game but the music got on my nerves really fast. One game that I really liked at that time was Ancient Art of War. That was the best strategy game of the time IMHO.

DPH> I'm keeping myself out of the RP loop for a while. I'll send you an email this weekend. That is if the story hasn't finished. ^_^

Christine> Glad your mom is feeling better. < freak-out during Futurama last Sunday
when they did something I'd done in a silly little Little Mermaid ficlet called "Ariel's Wedding Night> Doh! I missed the episode, but I'm curious too.

Poll Running Results as of April 20 11:00 AM:

Question: How do you feel about the amount of time it took for Brooklyn to meet Sata? (pick all that apply)

Reminder: Time can be interpreted as number of episodes (time we see Brooklyn in action), actual time (almost 20 years), or time in RL. When I originally posed the question I, like Fire Storm, was thinking in terms of number of episodes. I don't want to impose anything on anyone so you can answer the question you want or make me do triple work by answering each individually. ^_^

A. It was too quick.
B. It was too long.
C. It was just fine.
D. Don't care.
E. Shouldn't this be Firestorm's poll?
F. Who are Brooklyn and Sata?
G. I think Winterwolf is just trying to get some attention.
H. (Make up your own response.)

I'll tally and post the results of the poll Monday (day after Easter)

Current results:
A. 5
B. 0
C. 6
D. 0
E. 2
F. 2
G. 5
H. 2

H responses:
I know whats coming up and as a result think the pacing was juuuuust right.
I kinda expected it to happen in season one because we already knew about her. It was the wedding I thought came to soon episode wise.

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.


Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Thursday, April 20, 2000 10:52:10 AM
IP: 206.15.122.13

David G: Duh...that was assuming that you were actually working for the ARLINGTON Public Library (which of course may NOT be the case)!!

sorry for the double post...
Lynne Like - [mjlike@yahoo.com]
Thursday, April 20, 2000 10:15:50 AM
IP: fw1.directlink.net

Jenna: Hey! Whatcha up to?

David G: Thanks! I may just have to take a little road trip over to Arlington, now (I live in Springtown, TX--about 35-40 miles from you- but my hometown is Euless). It's been a while since I was over that way, can you give me the address of the library?

Mecord: Thank you, too--

And thanks for the welcomes!

'bye...
Lynne Like - [mjlike@yahoo.com]
Thursday, April 20, 2000 10:10:16 AM
IP: fw1.directlink.net

*Warpmind enters, looking grim.*
**WARNING! DC DEATH HERE!**
Warpmind steps up to DC, grinning.
"Yo, you sleazeball. You know, you've kept me off from IRC for a week now. And today, I heard that a lady I frequently chat with, a fellow Callahanian, attempted suicide. Now, I don't approve of such news, and there's always the chance that if I'd been given the chance to chat with her, I could have cheered her up, as she's repeatedly emphasized that I do."
Warpmind flicks up a massive, two-handed sword.
"Oh, and here's for killing my ADOM character with the Blessed Eternium Two-handed Sword, +18 to hit, 6d5+18 damage!"
Warpmind slices off DC's arms, then legs, then slowly begins to slice DC's skin off. Then, he leaves to fetch a huge bag, which he empties over DC's skinless body. DC screams.
"Ah, salt is bad for you, y'know?"
Warpmind then leaves DC to bleed to death, all the while screaming in agony.
**DC DEATH ENDED. YOU CAN LOOK NOW.**

Ah, that's better. Much better. :)

Gside: Yeah, well, as I said... I need to do some more re-research to brush up on old knowledge. And this Sir Robin... I'm not altogether familiar with the name; is he one who only exists in the Monty Python movie, or is he authentic?

Wilek: In the Quake community, at least, a Llama is defined as somewone who keeps complaining, insulting and generally making a nuisance of himself. SOP is to kill, laugh and repeat. Frequently. ;)

Well, off to read the newest Timedancer ep, then. And after that, I'll check out Pissy's works. :)

Ciao.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Thursday, April 20, 2000 07:21:46 AM
IP: maaloeytnb-gw.online.no

hi, guys!

I've just checked the fanfic archive and saw that the Injustice episodes got only 1 star.
So I can't help wonder something. was the story poorly rated because some of you have grudges against Pistoff, wish I chose to not get involved with in the first place, or because nobody liked the story. If it's merely reprisal against him, May I remind you that also I, Jannie and Jessie Feff worked hard on that story, during several weeks
So if you guys want to make a review of the latest episode, I'll be happy to read it. I don't mean to enter flamewars or personnal or cliques feud, just trying to clarify a point.

Christine, my best wishes for your mom's recovering!

sincerly,
Denis - [malkavien@lft.be]
Thursday, April 20, 2000 06:45:20 AM
IP: 212.166.47.2

I should have done this last time: <moment of silence for Edward Gorey> After experiencing The Gashlycrumb Tinies as I did last night (found it on the Internet), I see now that I should have worshiped this man when he was alive to appreciate it. He's like the missing link between Tim Burton and Clive Barker. Truly we have lost a great mind. <bows head>

Fire Storm> <<WHY DO LITTLE BLUE MIDGETS HIT ME WITH FISH!>> Chibi-Me, stop that. He's a member of our clan. [The chibi assumes an annoyed look and goes off to find other victims.] Sorry FS. He's kinda touched in the head. :P <<Is that show even on any more?>> I thought it was on late nights on the Comedy Channel, but I could be mistaken. <<Only problem is that my dad has to get a CT scan because he has a "mass" in his chest.>> Oh no. :( Hope it turns out not to be too serious either. <<Ick...Pinhead with mouse ears?>> Perhaps, in a rare silly mood, he tore them from their original owner. >8) <<And kill the team that did the cryptograpyh. Otherwise the Ferengi could be bribed.>> Of course. Although the encrypt key will have to be extracted from their misshapen little brains first. hehe

XenaTrek> <<Rumors has it that there is two remakes in works for "Logan's Run" and "The Forbidden Planet".>> Interesting. (Although I'm still waiting for a remake of Plan 9 From Outer Space. :P Hm, Tim Burton's a fan of Ed Wood, if I'm not mistaken...and Danny Elfman is in the habit of doing soundtracks for Burton's movies...this could be so kewl, sort of a Mars Attacks-style satire thing...)

Warpmind> <<you know, for once, Deathmatching vs. Campers and Llamas will be TRULY satisfying. :)>> Llamas...? <<just one thing... I suggest you ensure a thorough system analysis to keep an eye on all backdoors, eh? :)>> Of course, and it'll be easy enough, since the physical aspect of our Matrix will be run by a small collective of Borg. Also, the command center will, in the physical world, be a mobile structure of some kind, something like the creepy floating obelisk thing from Final Fantasy 8 (I love STR viewer programs); this will have no physical connection to the main Matrix and therefore be rather easy to lock down in case of an emergency. :)

Coyote> <<you might be interested in the opening music of "Nazca," a rearrangement of JS Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" performed by a Japanese music group called the Eccentric Opera. Very surrealistic because they turned a harpsichord piece into a semi-atonal chorale. But it really sounds sooooooo damn cool! :)>> Interesting...thanks! ^_^ <<Can you picture Thom voicing a character who, after witnessing a serious injury in a kendo tournament final, licks his lips seductively and says "I gotta learn how to do that."?>> Yes, but then I can picture almost anyone being that twisted. ;P <<Hey, I remember Thexder! That was a great game, even though it did annoy the hell outta me.>> The first I ever heard of it was the MID file at my name link. One of my favorites. ^_^

**TGS SPOILERS!**

<<"That's a large area," Samson commented. "Everything in-between Nairobi, New Olympus and Nova Gaza.">> *Nova* Gaza? Harthoth has to do with this, I just know it...and who in the *worlds* is Harthoth's mate?! O_o' Oh, well; there'll be answers someday; best simply to sit back and enjoy the ride...and what a fascinating ride this episode has been. 8)

**END**

Christine> <<I had enough of a freak-out during Futurama last Sunday when they did something I'd done in a silly little Little Mermaid ficlet called "Ariel's Wedding Night.">> Now you've got me curious. :P
Wilek Nereus
Thursday, April 20, 2000 03:58:36 AM
IP: proxy1.spaceproxy.com

Mom update, I mean ...
Christine
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 11:39:46 PM
IP: 15-147.009.popsite.net

Questioner > though actually, you'd be surprised how many people _do_ think Jericho was an official character; I get e-mail fairly frequently wanting to know which episode he was in! Which is flattering as hell, really ; )

Fire Storm > I wouldn't know; I doubt there's a motivator on earth that could get me to see that movie. I had enough of a freak-out during Futurama last Sunday when they did something I'd done in a silly little Little Mermaid ficlet called "Ariel's Wedding Night."

Toku > "A Thousand Acres" was a total rip-off of King Lear, just set on a farm, so I guess there are some authors who _do_ think they can steal from Shakespeare and not be found out ; )

Mon update > she's feeling okay, very relieved as are we all. This may be the impetus she needs to finally once and for all ditch the cigs, I hope!

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 11:38:47 PM
IP: 15-147.009.popsite.net

Coyote> *hugs gently* thank you
Jannie
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 10:51:45 PM
IP: 64-240-37-142.hou.port.mytelco.com

Uh, that shoulda read
**end spoiler***
Stupid me.

archwolf
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 10:49:54 PM
IP: viking203-43.dhcp.csuohio.edu

*Archwolf staggers into the room, a heavily flustered look on his face*

**Time dancer spoilers***
*Checks of a question or two on the ever growing list**
I had always wondered who her mate was....Anyway...ok, that ep was pretty damn good. It did raise one question i kept forgetting to ask: WHAT ABOUT LEX!?! how is he? is he still really lex, or is he all cyborg then or what? Do we get to see more of him? As for Brooklyn, key-rist. He seems to be having one of those "Decide to throw everything away for this objective but relent at the last moment" seasons. He seems to do this at least once per season, but isn't this like the second time this season? And whats with those "watcher's chrinicles" type things? If Sata has to take them back in time(after being reunited with brooklyn) so that Harthoth can get them and learn from them and then give them to Sata to take back again, where did they comefrom? Or am I just being typically dense and not grasping something every hatchling knows? oh well. Again, great ep. probably this season's second best.
Thanks for postin it early, Kyryn.
**End RP**

Well, I need 'Za and Caffeen, so I'm gonna get runnin.
*Looks at a blank CR wall and thinks deeply* hm...we need a wall of fame and remembrance.

Shade and Sweet Water

Archwolf - [archwolf@collegeclub.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 10:49:06 PM
IP: viking203-43.dhcp.csuohio.edu

Lynne Like> I work in a public library, in the recieving area. I'm not positive, but I think Deadly Force was one of the episodes on a Gargoyles tape that we recieved early this week.

That reminds me...
Does anybody know where I could quickly lay hands on a list of all the original episodes in order? I have a vague sense that the tapes I saw were in the right order, which would mean that I need to order some things...

Enough for now. I'm going to check out the new episode

David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 10:31:54 PM
IP: ip104.fort-worth6.tx.pub-ip.psi.net

**Mec floats in on a skeletal ship roling dice with a skeleton and a zombie-like woman**

HA! Ha! "I've won, I've won!" :)

Dave>> Ah, welcome. :)

Lynne Like>> Welcome as well. I do have Deadly Force, but I hesitate to offer my services. Two reasons: One, I bought mine and I'm not sure it's legal to copy that tape. Two: To be honest, for the next while I don't know how reliable I'd be. I'll check on the legality part, but best to leave me as a last resort. Sorry I'm not much help. Let me know if you strike out.

**The boat drifts out the other door**
Mecord - [mecordlein@mailcity.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 09:56:14 PM
IP: usr41.mtwest.net

****Kyryn steps tiredly into the room****

Since I'm dead dog tired, I'm posting the story a little early.

Gentlebeings,

What goes around....

Deals and Exchanges

Written by Rahsaan Footman and Allan 'Ordell' Coleman

(Apologies in advance, folks. No Pics on this one.)

Enjoy!

****Kyryn drags herself out of the room and off towards bed***
Kyryn
Denton, TX
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 09:48:58 PM
IP: denm1-24.iglobal.net

**enters and accepts XenaTrek's friendliness** Have fun, you two's! Don't to anything I wouldn't do ... then again, don't do anything I would ... ;)

Plagiarism: My opinion on the subject comes directly from the guidelines I was given when I first entered college. Which would be ... should I ever plagiarize anything, may a large boulder smash my genitalia flat and cause me agonizing pain as karmic punishment. (Well, not exactly directly from the guidelines, but you get the idea. I *hate* plagiarists)

**takes a moment to salute Stormy during her flyby**

Fanfic article: Did anyone else notice how disturbing it was that this article seemed to focus *SO MUCH* on slash fic and its impact? Did anyone else also notice that they fixated on that *one* author? Hmm ... methinks the writer kinda fell in love with the one author's works and used her for 70% of the article. Maybe we oughtta chime in with our $.02, whaddya think? Christine, definitely, and probably Spike as well.

Wilek: Hmm ... I know you're into classical, you might be interested in the opening music of "Nazca," a rearrangement of JS Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" performed by a Japanese music group called the Eccentric Opera. Very surrealistic because they turned a harpsichord piece into a semi-atonal chorale. But it really sounds sooooooo damn cool! :)

Daniel: Glad to hear you're okay after that kind of an accident, dude.

Aaron: Uhmm ... we're going beyond psychopath, really. Can you picture Thom voicing a character who, after witnessing a serious injury in a kendo tournament final, licks his lips seductively and says "I gotta learn how to do that."? Very scary, lemme tell ya.
Point being, his character goes beyond psychopath. After watching it a second time ... I think "sadistic bastard" works better as a description of the character.

Newcomers: Welcome!

SOROW: Hell, ya know Joe's always welcome. :)

SJ: Hmm ... very biting satire there. :)

Fire Storm: Hey, I remember Thexder! That was a great game, even though it did annoy the hell outta me.

Jannie: I saw news coverage of the memorial ... unusual sort of memorial, that field of chairs. Very tasteful, though.

And it's time for me to eat my dinner now ... so I'll see ya's all 'round! **jogs out, dropping the receipt for Mara-ko's Easter bouquet on his way out**
Coyote the Bando - [1134@i-is.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 09:09:30 PM
IP: zzz-209252248219.splitrock.net

My two cents on the great fanfic debate...

I think "rude" describes the situation better than "crime". Like what others have said, we are in a community and should respect the works of others and not step on each others proverbial toes...
While plagarism in any form is criminal, the murky legal issues of fair use and copyright make it hard to press the matter with fan fic. The best we can do is to make the writer know that this is not acceptable behavior do our best to shun this person if they continue to do these kind of things. This is a very cliquish attitude to take,but honestly that is what we are. For a clique, we are rather open and accepting by nature, but I don't think we should accept this kind of action by these kind of people.

Skippy The Klingon
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 08:38:23 PM
IP: uv1cisco01-30.ultravision.net

Thanks to all those who welcomed me to the CR. I just finished dropping my sanity off in the deposit box....sorry, I know it's not much of a deposit but hey, you can't get blood from a stone!

jenna>have to agree with you about Lexx, really disappointing to see ashow that's advertised as being so racy and have it be such a dud! Someone else mentioned this being an Australian production, I understood that it was a Canadian/German show. Anyone know for sure?

Fanfic debate>there's a saying I've heard, "it ain't illegal 'till you get caught!", seems this individual who used(I'll be polite)Christine's story got caught! I would hope that since Christine has contacted the Web Admin, that the word would get around fairly quickly that this individual has claimed a work which is not theirs. Personally, I wouldn't be too inclined to think very well of this person after finding that out about them. Let's just hope this is the case here. There really is little else that one can do in a case like this than to make sure everyone knows what really went on. Writers post their work in places like this in part so that others can get to know of them. Well a bad reputation seems to get around even faster than a good one for some reason, I'm sure it will this time as well.
Brian - [bigbri_ca@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 08:11:03 PM
IP: wpga01.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca

whoops! typo in the email! sorry!
for the illustrated story, clickie clickie or go to
http://members.xoom.com/pissysplace/fics/17-injustice3.htm
OME - [garg2k@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 07:52:53 PM
IP: 212.166.47.2

*****SHAMELESS PLUG*****
There is a time to learn from mistakes,
A time to come and tell.
There is a time for apologies,
A time for revenge...
Here it comes... the first piece of INJUSTICE FOR ALL part 3!"

The authors and artists who worked on this project hope you'll enjoy reading it as we enjoyed working on it!
Denis, Jan, Jessie and the writer, Pistoff
***END Shameless Plug***

Welcome to the new comers too


Omega Section Entertaintment - [garg2k@hotmail]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 07:50:42 PM
IP: 212.166.47.2

To Winterwolf, if you remember my spoilers I gave you, you're probably confused. The only clue I will give you to end the confusion: remember my posts earlier asking about the nature of the phoenix gate. I still haven't decided how to end my RP. :(

To everybody else, I handed you some indirect clues about where I am going and here's another one: remember my response to why spld's are dangerous and think irony.

Thanks for caring about me.

Work news: I stopped working 3rd shift where I was and started working for the . . . Census Bureau. :) I'll get better pay and will be NOT working GRAVEYARD shift. Hopefully, before my work with the Census Bureau ends, I will get a job as a lab tech. I will start to work right away on a page describing my work experiences. I'll adjust my resume to list where I worked but on the page describing my work experiences, I won't list it. Trust me, it's bad.

Are there any fans of the show "The Pretender" in here?

I personally believe if everybody obeyed the golden rule, the world be significantly different.

**DC CONSPIRACY SAGA continues**
"Hmm. Do you know of any potential allies I might be able to find in an upcoming battle against NCA?" asked DPH.

"Let me think: Who is Self-ReBoot's enemy? I can't think of the name but he/she will probably be glad to help you out," replied Ms. SuperSpeed.

"Can you explain to me why NCA hates technology so much?" asks DPH.

"I don't know," said Ms. SuperSpeed.

"Thank you for your time. I'm on my way to visit Ms. Netlag," said DPH.

"Be carefull and good luck in avenging my late husband's death," said Ms. SuperSpeed.

DPH left Ms. SuperSpeed's home and started on his way to Ms. Netlag.
**END DC CONSPIRACY SAGA for now**
Daniel Paul Hightower - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 07:23:21 PM
IP: max1-23.cwy.cei.net

Well, this debate has certainly been interesting. I haven't had this kind of mental exercise in a while. That's must be why I'm getting a headache. :) I am also gratified by how civil this has been. I was with not a little trepidation that I became involved.

Our learned friend, Toku Kaioto, did an excellent job of analyzing my previous post. Let me first make it clear that I agree with him completely. I especially liked the distinguishmeant between "rules" and "custom." "Custom" or "etiquette" would be much better terms. I really didn't get across what I was thinking: a common problem of mine. Most of what I said was pure rationalization. I admit that. I really shouldn't have bothered if I had thought about it more. I was making a justification for The Way Things Are rather than The Ways Things Should Be. But, it doesn't really matter. Instead, I'm going to look at this differently.

Now, if I understand correctly, he is saying that in order to be fair and equitable, there are only two options: all fanfic is unethical and should not be permitted or all fanfic is ethical, including fanfic of fanfic. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) This makes sense. Any line drawn between fanfic based on Greg's work and that based on, say, Christine's work *would* be purely arbitrary. However, we make such arbitrary decisions all the time. Compromise can be just as necessary to the smooth running of society as equitable rules. It may not be right, but sometimes just being right isn't enough. You have to consider the consequences of being right.

If all fanfic is unethical, then the same argument would apply to fanart. That is obvious. But, what about other aspects of fandom? What about filks or creativity demons? Gatherings? In fact, almost any in depth discussion or analysis could be considered inappropriate. We are creating a derivative work that we are sharing with others. I don't really think that would be too far of a stretch. In any case, it would mean the dismantling of the fandom. I don't think anyone here would advocate that.

Now, if we accept that *all* fanfic, including that based on another fanfic, is ethical, we have a very different problem. What incentive would fanfic authors have to share their work if they knew that anyone could take their work and freely use parts of it for their own stories? Human beings are, well, human. They like to be rewarded for their work. It might be nice if everyone acted purely out of generosity, but that isn't going to happen. Greg and the show's writers might have enjoyed their work and the admiration of the fans, but they also got paid. Fanfic writers don't get paid; their only reward is their reputation with and feedback from the other fans. I think that in this case there would be dramatically fewer original fanfics produced, just the same few stories constantly rehashed by different authors. Without fanfic, the fandom would probably be much smaller than it is today. I, for one, would probably not be here: reading fanfic is what got me interested in participating here. This CR, in fact, wouldn't likely exist. Nor TGS itself. All the best writers would have left.

In either case, I guess I'm saying that the fandom would probably either disappear or diminish to the point where it became pointless. Of course, it is *my* opinion that fanfic is important to the health of the fandom. Others might not think so and I will not argue the point as it *is* an opinion. So, if my conclusions are correct, then we are not faced with a choice of wether fanfic is ethical or not, we are faced with a choice of whether we should *be here* or not. And if the answer is no, then why are still talking about it? Go away! :)

Anyway, I think that's enough from me on this subject: I finally think I've said what I intended to say. In any case, I've enjoyed this discussion and am even gladder that I decided to come here. Many thought provoking words all around and now I think I have a better appreciation for what we have here. Thank you.
Daniel Johnson - [danielj7@exit109.com]
Ocean Grove, NJ, USA
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 07:21:20 PM
IP: 98aa6790.ipt.aol.com

<------------------------ _MUCH_ better!!:D
Lexy
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 06:41:11 PM
IP: 143.235.54.104

O_O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


<--------------------- NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Lexy
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 06:40:26 PM
IP: 143.235.54.104

*goes over and gets Kaioto by the garg ear and pulls him away from the crowd of ppl disscussing fanfic: A rip off, flattery? Or just plain evil*

*shakes her head* ENOUGH my love..

I'm sure the room understands your point of view.
we just dont give a..*mumbles coughs* (joking!)

Why do you waste so much comment room space on such posts when you can post large and obnoxious (sp) posts to your one and only?;) *bats her eyes prettilly* (sp)

*grins*
Lexy
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 06:39:26 PM
IP: 143.235.54.104

Tick vs. Neo: Upon further reflection, I don't believe this fight (assuming it is a fight and not a bake off) would not take very long, whether it took place in the real world ro the matrix. Marticised, the Tick wouldn't touch Neo, and in the real world Neo can't do squat. But it would still be fun to have the contrase between the mantras/batlecries.

Wilek> <<Gods, I miss materia>>: Hey, I miss espers (VI) and buying magic permanently (V). I like gradually collection the spells over the course of the game, not having to switch off to what you need.
<<neo-classical>>: I'd imagine Copland counts as such.
<<John Williams>>: Deul of the Fates rocks my world. And every now and again we blast Imperial March through a computer with a subwoofer (we can get it pretty loud). And of course we pump the volume at the appropriate places in the movies.

Fire Storm> <<I'll have to remember that link>>: I have an entire directory dedicated to reference materials: OneLook, Project Guttenberg, IMDB, Encyclopedia Mythica, time.gov...
Thexder: Ahh, sounds interesting.
<<know where I can get a copy of the episode>>: Sorry, I have no idea.

Warpmind> <<one of them will *certainly* NOT be among the reincarneted ones>>: Two, actually. I can't see Sir Robin volunteering for anything.

Knee of gold> <<I hear they'll be reinstating it for FF9>>: FF9 news: New characters revealed. Female warrior, beastman, wise child, an odd looking chef, and a priestess. See www.rpgamer.com for more info.

Shadowrider> Easter: and it there much pizzagaina (aka easter pie)? That is some good stuff.
"iky": Also spelled icky. Generally means unpleasant and disgusting, also could be "disagreeably sticky."

I had a debate with myself about which mp3 to post. Both were Copland, but I went with the brass. I give you Aaron Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man.
In case anyone cares, the other choice would have been Rodeo: Hoe-Down. (influenced by Toku Kai's making steak out of golden cows. Steak: it's what's for dinner.)

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 06:33:58 PM
IP: gside.dorm.rutgers.edu

Lynne- hey there! ^_^
jenna
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 06:13:01 PM
IP: 1cust222.tnt8.houston.tx.da.uu.net

Hello, everyone...I'm new in here; some of you may know me from the s8 room. I've asked this question a couple of times in the other room, and received no response, so here goes:
Does anyone have a copy of "Deadly Force" that could be copied for me? It's the only ep I'm missing. I'll gladly pay whatever if someone is just willing to help me. Please?

Thanks...

'bye!
Lynne Like - [mjlike@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 03:24:58 PM
IP: fw1.directlink.net

Hi to everyone. Easter break is here for me!! WHOOOHOOO!
Free time, finally!

Green Baron:> <grins> Well, I assure you your humour is not so different from mine.;) 4th of August? I'll remember it... Oh, if you didn't yet, check your email.

Stormy:> Sorry, I'm probably too late. Anyway, good luck and may you fly high!

Niamhgold:> Don't worry, you didn't hurry me at all. Actually, I'm the one who is hurrying myself. ;)
Good point about sharks, by the way. I'd do the same thing of yours if I'd see a fin, be sure- I like sharks, but not at this point! ;)
You ask me about Easter? Well, as you can imagine, in a country that is traditionally Catholic, Easter is a very important holyday, maybe even more than Christmas. I've never been in Spain during the Holy Week, but I think the feeling is about the same. This year, then, the celebrations are going to be even more intense than usual, because of this one is the year of the Jubilee, and because Easter comes to a coincidence with Italian National Holyday (25th of April). What do we do for Easter? Well, a lot of people takes advantage of the break to go on a little vacation (a last bite of skiing, or a first bite of sea, according to taste), or to see relatives. For the ones who stay in towns...free concerts in squares, of classical and holy music of course (what I like: I'm not a believer, but I love Bach; I sing in a poliphonic chorus, and we are going to execute a selection of Bach's Chorals in Saturday night) but also rock and pop. Then art exhibitions, processions, typical cakes <licks lips in anticipation> and so on. Me? Well, from today to Saturday I'll try to study a little, to complete my fanfic (or at least to take it forward), go out with my friends to see some of the aforementioned concerts and, if possible, sleep a little. Monday, I'll go with some friends to make a little trekking on the National Park of Stelvio (the biggest natural reserve in Italy, not very far from my home), and Tuesday I'll be in Rome to see the traditional march past of the Armed Forces. My break ends in thursday, so I'll have a full day to regain...I hope will last ;)
Just out of curiosity, where do you live? And how do you celebrate Easter?

DPH:> Glad to see you're still alive and in one piece.

Gside:> Timedancer the Untold Tales? Hmmm...seems not a bad idea! :)

Doug:> About your name...I admit mine one was a pathetic attempt of humor referred to the Marvel character. I didn't know about the NFL player, but in Italy Football is practically unknown. Walker Texas Ranger? Yes, I like it. Not my preferred live action, but it is funny and sometimes the stories are interesting. I particularily like the character of Trevor Malloy. About X-Files...well, I don't speak of it here because the episodes I see currently are probably a lot old for you. The last one I've seen (I don't know the title, they always cut away credits) involved a writer, mulder's neighbour, who is obsessioned by Scully, and a killer who takes away hearth from his victims' ches without cutting the skin...not all bad, but a little predictable.

Caliope:> So you bought "L'alba dei morti viventi"? <grins> Glad you enjoyed it (BTW, what means "iky" ?). I am not a fan of Dylan Dog, but I know it very well and I can say you the first issue is not the best one. A predictable story and I didn't like the style of the drawings. Some issues who came out later were very better. If you like, try to seek "Memorie dall'invisibile" (The approximate translation is "Memories from invisible"), it is the best episode of Dylan Dog IMO.

Fanfic Debate:> I'm not a writer, not yet at least, but I agree with Warpmind's points. If anyone wants to use a character of mine, he's supposed to ask me before and wait for answer (I will usually answer "yes", so asking will cost nothing at all and will put me in a better mood).

Dave:> Welcome here! A lot of new people around these days. Very good to me! :)

Delphi:> LOL! Very good jokes!

OK, nothing more now, see later maybe!
Bye!
Shadowrider - [shadowrider@katamail.com]
Milano, Italy
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 02:43:39 PM
IP: h255-20-66.mi2.albacom.net

***Kyryn sneaks in for a moment***

Note: Published works that are 75 years old or older at this time and anything that was published before 1964 and failed to have its copyright renewed on time are considered to be in public domain. That is why Homer and Shakespeare are public domain. Likewise, Sun Tzu's "Art of War" is in public domain; but the translations of said material may not be. However, it always wise to check on things. One might think that since J.R.R. Tolkien is dead and "The Hobbit" was first published in 1938 that it might be in public domain; but Tolkien didn't pass away until the 1970's and the Tolkien estate and heirs have made sure that the copyright was renewed properly.

***Kyryn sneaks back out****
Kyryn
Denton, Tx
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 02:42:48 PM
IP: 216.35.46.129

** Niamhgold enters, stage right **

Heya, folks! Leaving for work in an hour and figured I'd wing by. I was supposed to go to Providence, RI today, but with all the rain I'd figured I'd wait til tomorrow. I don't particularly feel like marching up College hill with wet sneakers :)

Anyone here like the Twilight Zone? I have to say, I'm a bit of a Twili-phile, and sitting here watching a rerun of it on Scifi just inspires me.

Anyway, on to the responses:

DPH: Wow, that sounds like a nasty accident! You _are_ lucky (either that, or Fate has a protective wing over you), and many wishes on getting well!

Christine: Ah, it's good to hear your mom's biopsy shows *pneumonia*, not cancer. Not that pneumonia is a _good_ thing, but certainly is much easier taken care of! Keep us posted!

Sevarius Jr: <How do I know if I look like shark food>? Well, I guess that's the tricky part. Mostly, the only problems related to *looking* like food is in the case of surfers while they're waiting for a wave. Because the bottom of the board looks like a dolphin's body, and because their legs are dangling off, it _appears_ that they are prey. Usually, a shark won't even attack under these circumstances...but you have my assurance that I'd be doing the same thing you would if I saw a fin--high tailing it for dry land! Point in fact, however, is just that there are a lot more ocean dangers to be wary of than sharks. Like jellyfish and sea-snakes, for instance. :()

Mecord: <My mother just asked how to pronounce your name> Don't worry, that doesn't sound strange! One of the reasons I chose it was because it's so interesting to pronounce: Say it like "Nee-av gold". The 'mh' sound in Celtic is normally pronounced like a 'v'.

Doug: Thanks for your concern about my dog :) All the wishes I've gotten have been touching. Also, thank you for your kind words on my fanfic--I am grateful that you find it interesting. They surely aren't as well-developed as the plot inherent in your own fics, but I'll embrace any feedback. I'm glad you like what I did with Dingo and Matrix; but they're the easiest to cast because there's not many authors to compare them to ;) Thanks again!

Gside: <Who'd like to see the Tick vs. Neo?> Ooh, I would!

Wilek: <Gods, I miss materia!> Me, too. But I hear they'll be reinstating it for FF9. Here's hoping!

Allrighty then, I think that's all! Bye!
Niamhgold - [niamhgold@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 01:41:12 PM
IP: lac-flex90.ncia.net

Kaioto> Actually that's exactly what I meant by "betters". It's a metaphorical "betters", a term I used simply because it has been used before. If you check my post you'll see I'm pretty much saying exactly what you are saying about them being public domain, having become part of the underlying mythos of our world, etc...

I certainly didn't mean that a bad writer can rip-off a better one. I obviously have no right to rip-off Christine or Merlin Missy even though they're far better writers than I... :-)
Questioner
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 01:35:32 PM
IP: athe530-q144.otenet.gr

Questioner>

Actually, I hate to say this, but you are completely wrong and inaccurate as to why Greg can take from Homer or Shakespeare.

There are two reasons:

A.) Everyone already knows that Homer and Shakespeare created the characters Greg uses, and they are now part of our communal mythology and literature.

B.) And, as result from A, it is impossible to own the rights to Homer or Shakespeare's works.

It has nothing to to do with "Betters," though it may parallel. It has to do with whether or not people have any control and claim over the work or not. In the case of Shakespeare and Homer, there is no one alive now with a legitimate claim to them, and they have become so ingrained into the culture that they have become public domain, as well, anyone trying to plagierize Homer or Shakespeare would be looked at like, "You really think I'm THAT stupid?"

In addition, I do agree that what was done to Christine falls under the "Crime" rather than "Rude" catagory, because it was plagierism, taking work verbatim and passing it off as your own.
Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 01:09:26 PM
IP: 141.133.151.90

Rodlox- believe it or not, I'm not offended by the scantly clad men/women in Lexx. What offends me is that a show that is advertised as being so naughty, can be so damned boring and gross. There is a part where some one gives the slave girl a vampire like kiss on the neck- and spits out green colored thick mucus- yuck! made me want to throw up! I know that's her blood, but it looked like what you cough up when you are sick with the flu- the pus from your lungs. And the way he spit it out- it was like watching someone spitting out tobacco- oh yeah, real attractive....
jenna
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 01:05:55 PM
IP: 1cust225.tnt5.houston.tx.da.uu.net

Wilek:
<<Welcome! :D Surrender your sanity, and Don't Annoy The Crazy Person. :) >>

Hey... I resemble that remark O.o

Just thought I would drop in another bit of artwork that Elisagoyle drew up and I grabbed from her to color. Zoicite from Sailor Moon. (The americanized womanly version of him)
CrzyDemona - [<--- Art by Elisagoyle, color by CrzyD]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 12:55:19 PM
IP: 209.150.94.70

DPH>> whoa, glad you're okay - we would not want to lose you to a car accident, or anything else for that matter.

Christine>> glad your mom doesn't have cancer, I'll be praying for a speedy recovery from pnemonia sp? ick, I had a case once and it seemed to take FOREVER to get my stamina back afterwards...

Toku>><<"I'm trying to make steak out of a lot of people's sacred cow">> wow, you really have a way with word's, I loved this line.

On the issue of plagerism: stealing word for word (which is basicly what happened in this instance) is wrong. Now, defining the which is and isn't wrong in all instances becomes tricky. But this is a community, and communities create laws, and codes to allow us human animals-so to speak- the means by which we can live together and function in a civil manner. The larger the community, the more diverse the backgrounds of the individuals in the community, the more complicated the laws.

in our case the rules are so we can function in a civil manner concerning the thoughts and ideas of others, and when the rules are broken the community reacts. Will these reations change the individual who commited the crime? Maybe and maybe not, but the need to act still remains.

the golden rule: "treat others how you would wish to be treated" applies here, and this person has stepped out of that bounds. We are not this persons parents, hence not responsible for their "raising up", but Christine still has the right to tell said person that they have infringed upon her creation.

I know this doesn't help answer the ultimate question of where to draw the line. But quite frankly, respect and consideration of others, over your own selfish interest is the bottom line. Being respectful is a life time habit and will reap it's rewards in due time.

okay enough said, I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments on the subject.

here are some great blonde jokes:

1.) What do you call an eternity?
> > > Four Blondes in four cars at a four way stop.

2.) Why do Blondes have TGIF written on their shoes?
> > > Toes Go In First.

3.) Three Blondes were driving to Disneyland. After being in the car for four hours they finally saw a sign that said
"Disneyland Left" so they turned around and went home.

4.) What do SMART Blondes and UFO's have in common?
> > > You always hear about them but never see them.

5.) What did the Blonde say when she opened the box of Cheerios?
> > > Oh look, Daddy...Doughnut seeds.

6.) Why did the Blonde stare at the can of frozen orange juice?
> > > Because it said concentrate.

Catch you all knext time!

delphi - [cmiller@magiclink.com]
Twin Falls, Idaho
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 12:43:04 PM
IP: twin57an.magiclink.com

SJ> Sci-Fi channel is not that bad. It's unfortunate that they cancelled Good VS Evil, but they must've been losing money on it. But they did do something right, they picked up "Babylon 5", and may pick up "Crusade".
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 11:35:03 AM
IP: dialin-583-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net

FIRE STORM - I believe I'm the guilty party (in part because the story was co-written by Brian Dumlao) that had Robbins, Matt and Hudson go to a "STOMP!" concert... Just was one of those quirky ideas that popped up during the writing process which turned out all right in the end. :)

Maintain and Check Six!
Stephen R. Sobotka, Jr. - [scififangargoyle@yahoo.com]
Spokane, WA, USA
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 11:15:16 AM
IP: m54.ieway.com

*Warpmind enters, repeatedly shooting DC with an excessively oversized handgun while approaching the other CR dwellers.*
I doubt he learned the folly of keeping me offline, but it was satisfying nonetheless...

Kaioto: A few good points in that post about fanficcing fanfics, but a few things occured to me:
1: What had happened in this particular case, as I recall it, was that someone hed taken a fanfic and just rewritten it, adding new characters et cetera. This would fall under plagiarism, no matter what, and should be punished severely. At least, such offenders should be somehow "frozen out" of the "honest" fanfic community.
2: Borrowing (or stealing, or abusing, whatever you might call it) another ficwriter's universe and characters, even without said writer's consent, is *not* an offense in the same manner as the above point (*Ehum* Guilty as charged; borrowed Christine Morgan's ficverse for my first feeble attempts at fanfic, fortunately without causing a storm), but should (in my opinion) be done with permission from original fanfic writer, if possible. And, of course, always disclaim, permission or no permission. (And if you asked, and did not recieve permission, and still used those characters, you *should* feel guilty.)
3: I do hope you just missed a word, 'cause "good manners are something parents are supposed to punish their kids for"? Really, I have always been of the understanding that it's the other way around... ;)

Oh, and just for the info... if anyone wants to borrow my original characters for their own fics, please ask first. :)

Spike: You've shipped it off? Ooo... well, truth to be told, my sister won't get it before, oh May 17th or so (no Illuminati connections, mind you - May 17th is to Norway what 4th of July is to you Americans), so she'll get it a bit late. But she knows this, and does not mind much... (you should have seen her eyes when I gave her the little card explaining the circumstances - we celebrated early.) Oh, and that extra, is that for her or me? (Just to avoid confusion.)

Dave: Welcome. The TGS Gargoyles series pick up directly after the show (just prior to TGC), and Nicholas Maddox and Mavis O'Connor never appeared in the show. And I'm not spoiling anything beyond that information. :) Oh, and just in case - please prepare yourself to have your sanity removed by that gentlebeing with the funky vacuum cleaner. :)

Gside: True, he *will* be resurrected somehow... but exactly *how*, well, I hope I'll be able to surprise a few people. :) And thanks for those knightly names. Of course, of those knights you named there, I can assure you that one of them will *certainly* NOT be among the reincarneted ones... And I'll let you try to figure out which one. :)

SJ: Okay, that interview was scary... too close to the percieved truth, I fear... ;)

Christine: Your mother's "just" got pneumonia? Well, at least there's a definite cure for *that*... :) Best wishes... *Flicks open an ancient tome, makes a few incoherent noises, slams the book shut, and reaches for another old tome. "Drat; I was looking for Grimorum Vitae, not the Kitab-Al-Azif!"*

Daniel Johnson: Ah, yes, a small part of every living being should always be afraid, if you ask me... fear is what gives us the edge in hazardous situations. :) As anyone with such a background as we have knows, you either grow from it, or suffocate. And, while I can never be certain, I'd say that you, too, have grown from it. :)

Wilek: Concerning our Matrix: Oh, goodie... you know, for once, Deathmatching vs. Campers and Llamas will be TRULY satisfying. :) "Bwahaha, suck on my rocket, jerk!" "Gee, that guy shot me from that location ten times in a row. Computer, strip security codes from Rocket_man; authorization Council Member Warpmind de InzanE." "Computing... security codes for Rocket_man removed. God have mercy on his soul." ]:) Oh, and you've got the Ferengi cryptographers, too? Uh, just one thing... I suggest you ensure a thorough system analysis to keep an eye on all backdoors, eh? :)

Fire Storm: I said I'd never *seen* it; I'm not entirely oblivious to events around the world... but thanks, I wasn't aware of *this* particular ongoing matter...

Caliope: You were a Catholic school girl, but not a scout? Heh, then give me a thought; I was never a Catholic, a school girl *nor* a scout. ;)

Well, that's about it... Catch y'all tomorrow, if the Powers (not Austin) that Be are willing... and DC stays off my case. :)
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 10:56:28 AM
IP: maaloeytnb-gw.online.no

Star Trek X >> Paramount has given Berman a go ahead to make and produce ST X. The tentative release date is Thanksgiving/Xmas 2001. No further details as to which crew will take part.

Star Wars >> Unoffical, actor Christian Bale is one of the front runner to play Anikan Skywalker in the next two Star Wars flick. He also has apparently made it to the 'pontenial Bond list' for when Brosnan leaves the franchise.

Other Sci-Fi News:>> Rumors has it that there is two remakes in works for "Logan's Run" and "The Forbidden Planet". Is it me or is Hollywood running out of orginal Sci-Fi/Horror concepts? I guess I need to hurry up and get my screenplay that I wrote for college done and published.

*gives a kiss to GB and Coyote* Love ya guys. Now off to Epcot with my soon-to-be famous actor friend.
XenaTrek - [ellislis@yahoo.com]
Orlando, FL, USA
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 09:27:37 AM
IP: proxy2b.lmco.com

Jenna: i think that the comment from Lucas was a joke - not actually said by him.

Jenna: <<I don't know what I hate more the show Lexx it self, or the way it trashes a beloved gargoyle's name. The show is defiantely a waste of airtime.>> well, firstly, i don't think the Australians set out with the goal of "oh let's hurt the psyches of the bloody Americans!" believe it or not, the show does have morals {well, most eps do - same as gargs, it may be cleverlly hidden, but it's there}...and if it's the scantily-clad women {or men} that offend you, just take a page from my book: cover your eyes.

Rodlox
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 08:30:32 AM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

May I ask for a moment of silence sometime today - 9:02am (cst) if you wish to be exact - for the 5 year anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing victims, the survivors, their families, and those who assisted.
Let us not live in fear, but to always be aware that evil is alive and flourishing in the world.
Columbine just completed one year since their tragedy as well.

A memorial park has been built on the 3 acre sight of where the federal building once stood. Ironically, it can be seen from the creep's jail cell. (I choose to not remember his name, but focus on the memory of the victims instead)

Sorry for the gloomy post - but both tragedies strike my heart deeply.

*takes Denis' hand and walks out quietly*
Jannie
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 08:28:14 AM
IP: 64-240-37-180.hou.port.mytelco.com

Helloooo! :)

A Catholic Schoolgirl scout?! Well, I was a catholic school girl once, but never a girl scout :P

Aaron> An anime society?! Thats sooo cool. Unfortunatly anime fandom is not a very big thing on this little island. There is an anime club, but its in another college (not mine :() The friend I told you about is pres or vice pres or something, but I discovered my not so local anime suplier has videos 5 and 6 for rent!!! So hopefully I get to see them soon :)

Sevarious Jr> LOL OK, that was funny...but JarJarLand? ....*shivers* eeeeewwww....scary...

Dylan Dog: Ok, I donno if it was Sevarious Jr or Shadowriter or both who mentioned this comic book, but I was rumaging through the comic book store and decided, being the broke lass I am ;P, to peep into the bargen bin where I found Dylan Dog 1 of 6. I was marked .99 cent and seeing as I actualy HAD .99 cents and was expecting a desperatly boring weekend, I bought it! It was actualy quit entertaing. Very Corny at times but very clasic horror movie feel to it. I enjoyed everything but the animation, wich was kindda iky, but hey, what can you expect, cute walking dead? :P

Well, I gotta get! I`ll see ya guys!!! *HUGZ for all*
Caliope
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 07:52:51 AM
IP: 136.145.83.126

Sj--- regarding good vs evil: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And they'll probally keep that trash Lexx on- I don't know what I hate more the show Lexx it self, or the way it trashes a beloved gargoyle's name. The show is defiantely a waste of airtime.

Regarding Lucas- man, that about destroys whatever respect I have for him. It really, really really peeves me off when people try to set themselves above their fans. Hello! If it weren't for fan support, you wouldn't have a job to begin with!! Grrr! That is one thing I have always respected about Greg, that he appreciates the fans and takes time with us.
jenna
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 07:46:32 AM
IP: 1cust127.tnt3.houston.tx.da.uu.net

I agree that rudeness can't be punished as criminal, but that doesn't mean it can't be punished. A person writing "Gargoyles" fic obviously wants to be a member of the community we call "Gargoyles fandom," but along with that membership in the community comes expectations of conduct and consequences associated with not following them. Yes, a person is in his/her legal rights to be rude, annoying, abrasive, and make a general PITA of him/herself. But that's balanced by the community's collective right to ignore, chastise, or ostracize said person for that behavior. And stealing other people's fanfic is one topic within this fandom community that there's a pretty strong majority concensus on as being WRONG and RUDE. So while a person is still legally free to go ahead and do it, he/she does so at their own risk. In the case of the person who has plaigerized Christine's story, it comes down to a simple question: what does he/she value more - his/her right to post the ripoff fic, or his/her continued participation in this online community.

One of the problems, I think, is that people in society general are so caught up in asserting what rights they have, they don't consider the responsibilities they also have as members of a civil society. As my HS government teached once quoted, "Ones right to swing ones arm extends only as far as the next man's nose."

And now I'm outta time. Might have more to add later.
Patrick Toman
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 06:57:38 AM
IP: abd19a29.ipt.aol.com

***Begin DC Torture***

Fire Storm storms into the CR and grabs DC by the neck. He then pulls out a face hugger and holds it 6" from DC's face.
"Remember this?" DC Nods.
"Then stop wiping my posts, re-booting my computer and make my burner work, ok?"
DC nods.
"Good. And if you don't, my little darling here will be the next addition to my race."

***End DC Torture***

Serial Killers: As you may have heard on CNN, the cops caught a serial killer in the Detroit area. Apparently, he killed prostitutes all over the globe.
Bonnieway, they showed his wife and I screamed "HOLY $%^T!" It was someone that I knew fairly well from my electronics class!
(She is ok.) Man, that kinda hit too close to home!

Warpmind: <Actually, I've never seen chimps being slaughtered... uh, but I think I see your point...>
Ok, so it was a bad example. FYF chimps are bing slaughtered in Zaire (Or is it the Congo now?)

Green Baron: <I think she e-mailed me her snail mail address. I'll look for it.>
Ah. Good. I just want to make sure she is ok and to let her know she is missed.

Speaking of which... should I contact Jackal?

MSN Article: It was ok. Not great, just ok.

Gside: <How many people would laugh if Shaggy says anything about eclairs?>
That would be reason enough to see the film!
<www.bartelby.com>
I'll have to remember that link.
<Nice to know someone likes it.>
Didn't exactly grow up on it, but I remember liking in when I was in the car with my grandma. Found it on a local radio station and listened to that station until it changed formats.
There is a classical music station on Dish Network, but I don't have a tuner hooked up to my computer... yet.
<Sorry, what?>
Obscure referance, to say the least. Thexder was a game made in the 1980's by Sierra On-Line. It's theme song was Beethovens Moonlight Sonata.
<Anyone else want to see the Tick vs. Neo?>
YES! Neo would get crushed under the mighty blue thumb of goodness!
And, you know, there are many questions in this universe, big and small. Like why do clowns make us laugh? Why do we love puppy dogs? And why... WHY DO LITTLE BLUE MIDGETS HIT ME WITH FISH! (huh?) See what I mean? Mysteries Abound!
One of my FAVORITE lines from that show. Is that show even on any more?
(BTW... know where I can get a copy of the episode where we first see the boy with a dome over his head?)

Toku Kaioto: I definately prefered your reivew of that MSN article alot more than the actual article!

Winterwolf: <Thersites Pic>
You did a very good job! Nice pic. We will probally use it. It sure beats doing all of the pictures myself! :)
(BTW... do you have a copy of that pic you did (cut out) before you resized it?)

Christine <But I feel I must stress that I can't usually accept anything involving official characters ... and also that I reserve the right to turn down proposals that I just don't think I could do. ; )>
DERN LOT BOYS!
Hmm... how about this... if Shaggy mentions eclairs in the new movie, would you write one then? ;)
<Mom does _not_ have lung cancer, the biopsy reveals!>
Phew! THAT is a relief!
Only problem is that my dad has to get a CT scan because he has a "mass" in his chest.

Daniel Paul Hightower: <Why am I alive now?>
If I were religious, I would say "it was gods will"
If I liked prophecy, I would say "So you can spread the word about sleep-driving"
But I say pure (and very good) luck.
I am just glad that I didn't wreck the car because of sleep. There have been times that I know I fell asleep at the wheel.
I agree with Winterwolf's idea of taking a nap at the side of the road, but if I did that I wouldn't have gotten my job done (I delivered newspapers in the VERY early morning)

Spike: <You can do an awful lot of getting aquainted behind the scenes.... *L*>
So... does that mean you are going to write a nice behind the scenes story soon?
(Another "give a mouse some nookie..." :)

SOROW: <I'm going to see Stomp tomorrow night!>
Cool! I saw that on TV a while ago and I quite liked it.
(Was it TGS, Christine, Spike, or someone else that wrote a story that had Jeffrey Robbins take Hudson to a Stomp show)

Tim P: <Bad Stars>
Hmm... maybe FOX should make a new TV series based on that article: When Celebrities go bad! :)

SJ: <Lucas, Berman to Fans: "Screw You">
By the dragon, that was funny! I was trying to keep from laughing SO hard! (LM is asleep)
(Although, I am surprised Lucas spent that much time on the Episode 1 script!)
<Here's some ENTERTAINMENT INFO!!!!>
I thought your info on the World Bank WAS entertainment info! :)
Ick... Pinhead with mouse ears?

Wilek: <Interesting. Wish I had hacking skills; I had to track down a saved game. ;P>
Who said I actually hacked it myself? (Ok, I DID try with my HEX editor, but then I broke down and searched the net until I found a good one)
<And the encryption will be done by Ferengi cryptographers, so it'll be pretty much impenetrable.>
And kill the team that did the cryptograpyh. Otherwise the Ferengi could be bribed.

Hey, anyone have of know where I can get some high-quality CAD designs of aircraft turbines?
I would prefer something in the 100-500 HP axial compressor turboshaft range, but I will take ANYTHING I can get.

ACKNOWLEDGE//SUBMIT!
Fire Storm - [night-flame@usa.net]
Dearborn, MI
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 05:32:48 AM
IP: t3-77.visitus.net

A clarification> When I repeated the statement 'it's okay to steal from your betters, but not from your peers' I think I stated what almost everyone believes, even if they don't really understand the rationalisation. I didn't try to explain why that's so, and chances are my ramble won't make much sense right now... I don't even have that much time - 10 minutes before next class.

When I say 'better' and 'peer' I'm talking about something which does exist even if sometimes the distinction can be blurry: Greg could take the characters of Shakespeare without even the need to "disclaim" them. That's not plagiarism. Because Shakespeare is his 'better' (metaphorically speaking always): everyone who knows anything knows the characters are his. Likewise Shakespeare could take the Homeric characters of Hector and Achilles, or (even more so) the historical characters of Julius Caesar, Macbeth etc...

But Greg couldn't take Kosh from JMS or Kirk from Roddenberry. That *would* be wrong. Because Greg is Roddenberry's 'peer' - they both lived around the same time period, they both created series for money.

Could he take Sherlock Holmes, Dracula or Peter Pan or Frankenstein from their authors? I think yes: because these characters are already part of the underlying known mythos of our universe. They are there: public domain.

Likewise a gargoyle fanfic author can take characters from Weisman. Everyone who's gonna read the fanfic will certainly have seen the series first: there will be no confusion and the audience will have ease distinguishing between the original characters and the interpretations thereof. Noone ever thought that Jericho was a creation of Greg, or that Demona was a creation of Christine (there's a whole other dilemma here about TGS, which I'll hopefully have time to discuss later). Moreover the fanfic is not created or distributed in the same way that the original series was. Or (perhaps more importantly) for the same purposes.

But the fanfic of a fanfic (*even* if it's disclaiming) is using the exact same means of distribution for the exact same purposes. The audience need not have read the original before reading the 'plagiarising' one. Authorship gets muddled. The character is *not* public domain, but has been used as such. And IMO it's theft.

Believe it or not I think there's a quite good reason to have a standard period of time after which something becomes public domain - Is it currently 70 or 90 years? Anyway it works for me.

I hope this ramble made atleast some sense... I have to go now...

Questioner
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 04:18:56 AM
IP: cache2.grnet.gr

Got Final Fantasy 8 last night. Kewl game, but I'm taking out a contract on the idiot who designed the magic system. Gods, I miss materia.

Robby> <<What could a cautious jedi do balancing both sides of the force? Hmm, thats kinda what Luke starts to do isn't it?>> Not exactly; he was just on the edge of falling completely into the dark side at the end of Return Of The Jedi. Balance, I think, means utilizing both sides without going much farther into one than the other. (I think there's a cheat code in the Jedi Knight PC game that does essentially this.)

Winterwolf> <<Can you learn to be a Jedi on your own? Since you need a Jedi to teach you the arts.>> Possibly you'd need a Jedi Master to introduce you to the force, but what if, once you started manifesting the proper skills, he left you pretty much to your own devices? I seem to remember a Jedi from one of the novels, the Sun Crusher trilogy I believe, who pretty much did this (until he encountered the ghost of some ancient Dark Jedi, but that's neither here nor there). <<How do you feel about the amount of time it took for Brooklyn to meet Sata?>> C and G. ;P

Jaden> <<I'll be leaving in a few hours and I just wanted to stop by and say bye.>> And by the time I respond to this, you'll be gone...farewell, brother. :(

Fire Storm> <<That was a problem for me until I "hacked" the game. Tons of money and all of the pods are upgraded.>> Interesting. Wish I had hacking skills; I had to track down a saved game. ;P

Warpmind> <<when our Matrix is online, there'll be security codes, right? After all, we don't want to become accidentally killed when logged in, right? (And we'll be able to turn off anyone's security codes as we please, right?)>> Oh of course. And the encryption will be done by Ferengi cryptographers, so it'll be pretty much impenetrable. 8)

Weapons> I prefer something along the lines of this. [Wilek whistles, and a black ship about half the size of a Death Star and emblazoned with a miles-wide evil-looking sigil rises over the horizon.] Hehe.

Stormy> And you're leaving as well. :( Hope everything goes well for you. <sigh>

Gside> <<Nice to know someone likes it. A good fraction of my CDs are classical (the Brandenburgs, Carmina Burana, Handel, Copland (close enough), and a couple best of the old stuff.)>> Mine as well, although they tend to be more neo-classical (John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Danny Elfman, Nobuo Uematsu, Koji Kondo, etc). :) <<he then decided to open a window for fresh air and blinked, when suddenly it was morning and there was a cow looking in through the window>> Missing time? Hm. Has he been screened for verteron traces?

DPH> Accident> AAACCCKK!!! :O You're right, you *are* lucky to be alive. Although I suppose if you were *truly* fortunate, you wouldn't have had the accident in the first place, but at least you got out of it fairly intact! O_o'

Dave> Welcome! :D Surrender your sanity, and Don't Annoy The Crazy Person. :)

Kyryn> Anime laws> KEWL. 8) I checked out the 10 Laws Of Evil Characters. Wonder what it says about me that one of my ficverse's *good* characters fits at least half of these criteria. :P

Doug> <<BTW, just so you know, I made all this up>> You had me fooled right up until the mention of Natalie Portman. :P (I imagine Kit has a lovely voice, but I get the impression she doesn't have that accent...)

Christine> <<Mom does _not_ have lung cancer, the biopsy reveals! Double pneumonia, still no picnic, but a relief all the same!>> Very glad to hear it (although I hope she recovers from the pneumonia soon)! ^_^

SJ> <<Clive Barker--you know, the guy who has given us such great gorefests as Hellraiser and created the ultra-cool Pinhead the Cenobite--has signed his soul over to Disney. He's now contracted to write 5 novels for them, which I can presume will be turned into movies. To add insult to injury, they will be "Harry Potteresque".>> Oh dear gods. <sigh> Where did I leave my box...
Wilek Nereus
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 04:06:17 AM
IP: proxy2.spaceproxy.com

A few small points relating to Daniel's points:

Technically being right is all that counts within a rules system. If you have a fair system with which to exercise judgment, the technicalities are vital to be just as equitable as the rest of the system.

If we want to talk in terms of "rights" and "rules" and "ethics" we must accept all the logic and rationality which justifies these rights and rules and is the very definition of cognisciant ethics. To talk of fairness, we must evenly and identically apply our principles to everyone including ourselves in order to determine the both the rules and the exceptions in a fair manner.

Once we've established that this isn't a matter of "Rights" or "Rules" we have to accept it is a matter of custom and of etiquette. This entails that breaches of etiquette, however, are not the same as rules breaches. Breaches or rules or rights are defined loosely as criminal. Breaches of etiquette are defined as rude. There are different levels of appropriate response to crime than to rudeness.

You can't treat the rude like criminals, nor can you insinuate that they are criminals. You can not take away their freedom to be rude, the way that one would take away a criminal's freedom to commit crimes. You can not defend yourself from rudeness the way you defend yourself from crime. You can not justify physically attack, Harassment/ Verbal Assault, threatening, or other such quasi-legal forms of persecution because someone was rude where you could justify it if someone was trying to make you the victim of a crime.

I agree with just about everyone about plagierism (taking work without giving credit).

I also like Daniel's analysis of silence in the situation is a viable response. These kind of people very well are likely being so rude in the intent to get attention. Deny them the attention they crave and they're screwed.

As for the idea of harm, that is debatable in the extreme, as any group that cracks down on fan-fiction's lawyers would tell you, fan-fiction can harm the commercial value of legally bought and paid-for copyrights and such.

As for the idea of intent, that is a huge messy kettle of fish in which we have to presume to speak for what other people are or were thinking. That's a big mess I don't want to tangle with.

As for the idea of hypocrisy, it doesn't matter if you are a hypocrite when it comes to what you say. It can still be true. It simply means that what you profess and what you exhibit are in conflict. That means not that both are wrong, but that you really ought to pick one side or another and be consistent, especially if you want to deem something right or wrong based on "rules" or "principles." If you want your principles to be enforced, you'd better make sure they are rational and consistent.

As for the idea of community, I don't think it is justifiable to exclude show creators from consideration because they aren't part of the fandom clique / community. The creator has a relationship with his or her intellectual property no matter what clique it is being used in, and no matter how many times we want to call that clique a "Community" and talk about how much we love the show etc. etc. etc.

The kind of exclusive community or criteria of community that we establish to justify a double standard on intellectual property really rings of the justification for creating cliques which exclude or demean people, not the spirit of a good clan. We don't like being told we don't count, or that we lack worth because we're not members. We shouldn't treat other people that way either.

We certainly don't tolerate the idea that because we're not a member of that clique, we suddenly don't have the same rights as other people who happen to be "in," especially when it comes to our creations, or intellectual property. A person should not have to be "in" a fandom clique in order to have their rights to their intellectual property be treated just like everyone else's.

I'm also very glad that even though people have differing viewpoints and perhaps even their own empassioned perspectives, we've all chosen to express ourselves in a civil manner rather than screaming and name calling. This kind of an issue can touch many cords close to home for many of us in the fandom, so it does us good credit that the place hasn't burned down in another stupid flame-war over it.
Night Follks,
Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 02:53:26 AM
IP: 141.133.151.90

***Kyryn drags herself in and points to her name***

Folks, there is now a pic posted with 'Twilight Falls'. It is near the end of the story. Enjoy.

****Kyryn drags herself out heading for bed.*******
Kyryn - [<<<--clicky]
Denton, TX
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 02:03:15 AM
IP: denm2-27.iglobal.net

Well, there are already some lively discussions going on here I see. I've been working on this post much of the day, but I kept getting interrupted (darn work), and once this fanfic debate broke out I lost track of everything I was going to say. My memory is...what was I saying? Anyway, I'm sure I missed some things; I'll get back to them, eventually.

Mecord:
Thank you. However, my point was that the people *here* have become even more important. That point might have gotten lost in my meandering post.

Winterwolf:
Another thank you. I'm always happy to make a friend. Something I've never been all that good at in the past. And I think we're all a little "touched." ;)

Warpmind: (Love that name)
Greeting accepted and returned. Part of me freaked out when I posted that. Never really did anything like it before and I didn't know how people would react. Part of me is always afraid. It's a hard thing to overcome.

DPH (aka The Other Daniel):
Wow. My brother had an accident that was a little like that. Except that when the car stopped, it was upside down. And he was sitting rightside up. On the ceiling. Holding the steering wheel. And he wasn't hurt. In any case, take care of yourself. Injuries from such accidents can take time to show up.

James Birdsong:
Well, we know you're here and you liked the story; what exactly did you like about it? I'm interested.

Fanfic:
Okay, I've been watching this topic with great interest, and, as usual, a lot of good points have been made. I always enjoy Toku Kaioto's philosophical explorations; however, while he is technically correct in this case, I think that a more pragmatic approach is necessary. No offense intended. I really do admire your logic. And I don't think that any of us are really on different sides.

I personally think that one needs to consider the context in which a given fanfic occurs and the intent behind its creation. Consider a typical Gargoyles fanfic which uses the characters and places from the show. The applicable community here consists of the fanfic author, Disney, Greg and other creative talents behind the show, and the fans and potential fans of the show. In the context of that community, what damage would the fanfic cause? Who would be harmed by it? Wouldn't it be beneficial, or at least inconsequential, to those involved? Then there is intent. I think that most fanfic authors write out of respect, admiration, and, yes, love for the show. They wish to add to not only their own enjoyment, but also that of those around them. It is, in fact, a creative and giving act.

Now consider a fanfic which borrows, without permission, characters and situations--if not whole sections of text--of another fanfic author. The community has become much smaller: the authors and the rest of the fandom. In that context, the probability of causing harm becomes far greater. As an example, when someone copied one of Christine's stories, she was hurt by this. It also caused damage here judging by the number of outraged responses. The author's intent was also to take credit for work that he/she didn't do for his/her own narcissistic reasons without regard to Christine or the fandom in general. It is a destructive and selfish act.

But, what should be done about such destructive fanfics? This fandom, like the Internet, is a functioning anarchy. There is no one in charge. No one to enforce "the rules." "The rules" exists only as the community chooses to recognize them for the common good. Otherwise, the fandom could not function. And there is only one way to enforce "the rules": silence. Completely ignore the offender and he/she will have no audience. These people usually crave attention.

Maybe this is a double standard. Maybe I am a hypocrite. But, respectfully, this is how I choose to view the situation, and I am morally and ethically comfortable with it. Now, one could argue that certain kinds of fanfic could be considered destructive by some people, just as Lucas did regarding "Star Wars." However, in the absence of official condemnation, I stand by my previous advice: ignore it if it offends you.

Anyway, I seem to be rambling again and it's getting late; I'm going to call it a night.
As always, all questions, comments, jokes, and dessert recipes are welcome.
Daniel Johnson - [danielj7@exit109.com]
Ocean Grove, NJ, USA
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 01:20:55 AM
IP: abd8de5d.ipt.aol.com

***SPOILERS FOR _ANGEL_***...

i broke down and watched the series _Angel_ tonight. what can i say?, other than i’m a Bai Ling fan.

. gee guys, another dimension? you sure you don’t mean another universe or another reality? or did the first person through encounter a human watching klingons, then mould themselves accordingly...and ever since, travelers were automatically translated?

... what was that Sythian weapon she mentioned? besides, what if he’d responded with?: “oh, well i grew up with _those_” or “it takes me a century or two, on average, to master things - cell phones ain’t that old.”

. word of advice: _never_ underestimate the groveling ability of someone older than your friendly vampire: the guy’s managed to survive for that long -- but i also wouldn’t turn my back on him too long or often: think Methos. “like you said, i go with the winner” -Methos, ‘Comes A Horseman’ subset of Highlander the series.

. that line near the end, the ‘easy for you to say, it isn’t your people’...it may be cliched, but she truly means it. and what can Angel say? from what i’ve read on this Mmessage Board, he’s fought for demons before -- wouldn’t he be doing the same as her if it were his people?

. and that shot at hte end, with the glowing/burning ridges....i know the phrase in writing is “show, don’t tell” but that - it conveys OH SO MUCH MORE than any liplock or peck on the cheek ever could.

***END -for now -OF _ANGEL_ SPOILERS***


Rodlox
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 12:47:53 AM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

Joe>> Stressed? Sorow's right, you always got friends in here. Come on in and relax.

SJ>> Sweet. :)

Gside>> Tick vs Neo? Yeah! :p

Niamhgold>> This may sound strange, but my mother just asked how to pronounce your name. I admit to being curious as well, so i told her I'd ask.

Doug>> Yeah, that was the reason that after about six or seven hundred years I decided to return to Earth to pick up where I left off. I left Earth and became immortal about nine years ago so it was a simple matter of traveling beck into time, rejuvination, and a partial mind wipe of everything that happened since I left (I say partial because I didn't want to forget everything, I just have no way of proving it now). Did that make sense?

Aaron>> Wild Palms>> whew, I was begining to wonder if I imagined that show. With an imagination like mine, it was a possibility.

Gotta sudy, see ya!
Mecord
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 12:05:48 AM
IP: usr57.mtwest.net

**BEGIN RP**
"30 SECONDS??" Sammael shouted.
"Oh, a little less than that now," Jim said, looking at his watch.
Without another word, Sammael grabbed Kari by the arm and ran towards the control center. Dyscord flapped his little wings and quickly followed them through the air.
With a mad dash, the three burst into the control room, sending several Borg drones scurrying out of the way. Sammael locked eyes with a startled, but calm Administrator. He ran up to her.
"HeymissAdministratorI'msorrytobargeinlikethisbutifyoudon'tmovethestationrightnow, agatetohellisgoingtoopenandthentheearthisgonnabetoast!"
She blinked, then turned to Kari. "What did he just say?"
"I said," Sammael inhaled a deep breath. "Please MOVE THE STATION OUT OF ORBIT NOW, OR EARTH IS GONNA GO BOOM!!!!"
***END RP***

Okay, lot of catching up to do....I spent the last few days in Washington D.C. (isn't hard, considering I live there). I wasn't protesting the World Bank. I was laughing my ass off at the wannabe hippies who were protesting the World Bank. Christ, it's deeply disturbing to think that these people are part of "my generation". But there's nothing funnier than watching a bunch of wannabe gen-x revolutionaries with trust funds bigger than my house, coming out and screaming at the world bank for being capitalist pigs. While they were their Harvard/Yale sweatshirts and their designer shorts. And then they whine about the police roughing them up. Here's a hint--don't spit on a cop, don't hit a cop. Then they won't put your butt in jail.
I'm sorry, that was something of a rant there. This city....I love this city, but it makes me crazy. Even more so than usual. Here's some ENTERTAINMENT INFO!!!!

R.I.P. Mr. Gorey: Famed artist of the macabre, Edward Gorey, passed away this weekend. This is particularly upsetting to me, as I was a rather large fan of his. He is probably best known for providing illustrations for PBS' "Mystery" program, but he authored and illustrated dozens of books...most of them fairly sinister and disturbing. Perhaps my favorite of his works was the "Gashlycrumb Tinies". Very, *very* dark, but humorous as well.

Selling your soul to the Mouse: Proof that in a war between Satan and Michael Eisner, the mouse always wins--Clive Barker--you know, the guy who has given us such great gorefests as Hellraiser and created the ultra-cool Pinhead the Cenobite--has signed his soul over to Disney. He's now contracted to write 5 novels for them, which I can presume will be turned into movies. To add insult to injury, they will be "Harry Potteresque". *sigh* I remember when Clive Barker actually wrote *scary* stuff. Ever read Damnation Game? THAT was scary. Corpses, sadistic murderers who ate razorblades, cannibalism--scary stuff. No friggin' Harry Potter.

Speaking of Harry Potter, Rosie "Pumpkinhead" O'Donnell is dropping hints that she may have a role as Mrs. Weasley in the upcoming Harry Potter movie. Oh, the horror.

X-Files, killed by Uncle Sam: Rumors are out now about the final episode of the X-Files. It looks as if this season *will* be the last, and in the final episode, Mulder and Scully won't be taken down by aliens, or CSM, or by supernatural monsters.....they'll be taken down by none other than the most evil branch of the U.S. government, the IRS. The final episode of the X-Files will, according to rumor, consist of Mulder and Scully being audited by an IRS agent, as they try to explain the expenses they racked up on the X-Files.
Huh. Well, what a great finale, if it is indeed the finale. No big alien apocalypse. No final showdown with the CSM. No vampires, werewolves, ghosts or zombies. Just the IRS. But I suppose that is scary enough.

Jenna: I hate to be the angel of death, but it looks like Sci-Fi has cancelled "Good vs. Evil". :( Knowing them, they'll stick some more reruns of that truly godawful Sliders into the time slot. Maybe some sort of grassroots campaign can be started to keep it on the air.

Niamhgold: They always say that about sharks....how they rarely ever attack humans, unless humans are bleeding or they look like food. But that excuse has always been real hinky with me. "Look like food". How am I supposed to know if the shark thinks I look like a nice, fat seal or not? And I have the sneaking suspicion that I'd be one of those unfortunate few who look *just like* a nice, juicy seal. If you ask me, soon as I see that dorsal fin I'm out of the water, off the beach, and gunning the engine in my car, and burning rubber down the road.

The Great Fanfic Debate: This really seems kind of ridiculous and hypocritical to me. If you want to get technical, we ALL shouldn't be fooling around with the "Gargoyle Universe", because no matter how many disclaimers we put up, Disney still owns the whole thing. And, though I'm not really up to date with my copyright law, but legally we probably shouldn't be even writing the stuff. So, if we're "borrowing" characters from the show, it seems awfully hypocritical for us to turn around and cry foul when someone "borrows" our own characters, permission asked or not. Like someone said, it may be rude, but it's not this horrible ethical or moral sin. I can't honestly see someone pointing fingers at another and going "they used my character without permission!", cause Disney sure as hell didn't give THEM permission to use THEIR characters. It's just a ridiculous double standard.
Now, if the issue is plagiarism, then you have a legitimate complaint. Concepts are fair game; however, the execution of the concept is not. If you duplicate someone's execution of a concept without variance, then you're in the wrong. If that's what's happening here, okay, that's a legitimate complaint about a legitimate wrong. If it's just characters being used, then I really don't see the problem here.
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 12:03:21 AM
IP: cache-2.spg.va.webcache.rcn.net

Doug> *Nothing* could *ever* keep me away from you guys! You are my family.

Rodlox> I'm not being forced at all. The tickets were a Christmas present and I'm really excited. I take it that you're not a fan of the theater, but I love Stomp and I'll really enjoy it.
SOROW
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 11:49:36 PM
IP: dll2a010-0654.splitrock.net

SJ: I might of found that story quite hilarious if I wasn't so horrorfied. ;)
Tim Phipps
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 11:31:28 PM
IP: bn821-01.wsc.edu

Good news > Mom does _not_ have lung cancer, the biopsy reveals! Double pneumonia, still no picnic, but a relief all the same!

Fanfic > I have always been aware of the hypocrisy in myself by which I do as I will with Greg's characters but object should someone mess with mine. Yes, it's hypocritical. But that's how it is, that's how I am, and I have learned to live with it. Basically, we fanfic writers are all supposed to be peers here, part of a larger community, and within that community should conduct ourselves with respect for the creative works of each other. It doesn't always happen, true ... but when it doesn't, the offendor risks drawing the negative regard of the majority of the community who do have an instinctive understanding of this basic code of conduct.

In this specific case, it wasn't even fanfic based on my fanfic (which is weird enough in itself). It was one of my stories stolen and posted WORD FOR WORD, with a couple of very minor alterations and character insertions, and then the perp dared to claim "rewritten by" when barely a thing was rewritten.

What I feel about fanfic -- it is both less and more creative than original fiction. Less, because it lets the writer fall back on an established world and characters without having to do the work of creating them. More, because it means being able to do it well and believably when everyone who reads it knows the characters as well as the author might.

But it often seems to me that to then write fanfic involving not only the official characters but another fanfic writer's characters as well can be even _less_ creative ... instead of relying on what others have created, we should each develop our own (and of course, being me with my selfish mine-mine-mine attitude, I also like this method for that reason).

And at the risk of really sounding arrogant and full of myself, sometimes when I get requests to borrow my characters, it seems to be for no apparent reason other than to use those characters and my name as a draw; the story does not _need_ Jericho or Aiden or whoever to be good in its own right, but by sticking them in there the author is trying to capitalize on my reputation as a fanfic writer.

This by no means happens in every case, not even the majority of them, and those who have asked for and borrowed my characters needn't think that I think that about your stories; I usually turn such requests down in the first place. Part of it is in the interest of encouraging people to stretch their own creative muscles, part of it is of course my own overprotective selfishness.

Damn, I sound arrogant ...

Anyway, I still have had no reply from the one who posted my "rewritten" story, nor have I heard from the other site admin that I e-mailed. The story is still posted. I am still waiting. Still irked.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 11:22:07 PM
IP: 15-158.009.popsite.net

Hi ya'll
SJ> Yeah, exactly. I've been suspicious since I saw the Phantom Mucus. Now we all know.

Fanfic/Plagerism> The discussion has been interesting. I guess the sticking point for me is respect. When I do a fanfic - and I will do it again some day - I'm trying to express my love for something I really enjoy and maybe add something to it. I do that as respectfully as I can, giving credit where it is due and trying to avoid any impropriety. If somebody wanted to use my characters -which has really happened :)- I'd be glad to let them as long as they asked me. If somebody posted one of my stories with minor modifications and a different name I'd be really, really angry. Maybe that's hypocritical. On the other hand, H.P. Lovecraft said that the greatest strength of the human mind was the inability to corelate all its parts, so hypocracy is really OK. <joke>

Anyway, I do agree that all fanfic writers are on very shaky ground when they complain about plagerism and idea theft, but I think respect is always possible. Deliberately stealing from someone is not respectful, even if you can get away with it. In fact, picking on someone who can't really defend himself is about as low as you can get.

Other stuff> I'm really too tired to comment on other stuff right now. I'm thinking of lurking for a while - which is not all that much different than what I've been doing, anyway.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 11:01:11 PM
IP: ip134.fort-worth8.tx.pub-ip.psi.net

Real post in a minute. I thought I'd post this here, even though it's kind of long. I thought this was pretty funny...Think of it as a satirical criticism of the current direction of the Star Trek / Star Wars universes....

Lucas, Berman to Fans: "Screw You"
SKYWALKER RANCH - At a press conference today, Star Wars creator George Lucas and Star Trek executive producer Rick Berman said, "We have a message for all science fiction fans all over the world, whether they be fans of Star Wars or Star Trek."

"Screw you."

This message comes after months of news, rumors, and rampant speculation about upcoming projects from both franchises. Lucas' Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace received very mixed reviews. The quality and consistency of Star Trek is believed to have fallen off inrecent years, as well.

The union of Lucas and Berman, the men behind the two most popular franchises in the science fiction community, was surprising, considering the divisiveness of the two camps.

"We are united in one desire," said Berman, "for our fans to screw themselves."

Lucas said, "My Star Wars is space fantasy, while Rick's Trek is straight science fiction. But that doesn't lessen the intensitywith which we want our fans to ram it, cram it, then rotate it."

"It's funny that you should mention ramming it, cramming it, and rotating it, George," laughed Berman. "I was going to say that all fans could honk on Bobo."

George Lucas responded, "Everyone is interested in everything about my next Star Wars movie. And I have also read widespread critiques of my decisions, and frankly, I am tired of all of you fans questioning the will of George Lucas. Lucas will do as he pleases, and all you cattle have to do is go see it and give Lucas his damn money."

One reporter asked how long his hatred for the fans has been stewing, Lucas responded, "As soon as Return of the Jedi wrapped. Then I got started on the script for Episode 1. I worked on it for about an hour that Wednesday, then took a break. In 1990, I was waiting in line at the supermarket, and wrote another two lines. Finally, in 1997, the cameras for Episode 1 started rolling, and the crew were asking me stupid questions like, 'What do we shoot?' and the stupid human actors were crying their eyes out about stuff like, 'What do we say?' So to shut them up, I took an hour for lunch and slapped out a script on the back of a napkin."

Rick Berman then took the stage, as he announced, "When I took over the Star Trek franchise, I realized one thing: that I had the dream of one man, Gene Roddenberry, in the palm of my hand. And it was my responsibility to take that dream and crush it. The science fiction on the original series wasn't anywhere near science-fictiony enough, and none of the actors were any good on the one and a half episodes of it that I have seen."

"I have about as much interest in doing what the alleged fans of this alleged show want me to do, as I have of admitting that I stole the idea for Deep Space Nine from Michael Stracyznski's Babylon 5!" Berman coyly said, "Oopsie!" then shrugged and said, "What's he gonna do about it, anyway? I mean, I'm STAR TREK. What's he got? Crusade?"

"My friend Rick has a point," said Lucas. "Look, I'm not a good writer. And my directing skills, frankly, have atrophied during the 16 years I told you guys I was waiting for the technology to catch up to my imagination." Berman then burst out laughing until he started coughing, "I love when you say that!"

Lucas continued, "See, I'm all you have if you want some real Star Wars, and not that comic book crap or that swill that I let those novel-writing peons churn out. So you better shut up, or you'll get nothing and like it."

Berman interjected, "He could buy and sell each and every one of you in this room, and still have enough money left over to turn Disneyland into JarJarTown."

Lucas added, "And don't think I haven't considered that."

Lucas and Berman then introduced to the stage several unnamed and unknowable representatives of the Fox network, home of The X-Files. "Mr. Berman and Mr. Lucas have graciously allowed us this time to come aboard and let fans of The X-Files know that they, too, can get screwed. Chris Carter is under contract to write several new series. We will then promptly cancel all of them after nearly one full episode, then replace them all with self-titled sitcoms based on the acts of several 22-year-old comedians we have found at open mike nights. David Duchovny's character will be brutally killed, and we have several personnel looking into the possibility of hurting Mr. Duchovny himself. Gillian Anderson's final year on The X-Files will include breast augmentation surgery, a blond hair dye job, and changing the show into a wacky lawyer show called Gilly McCarthy."

On that note, reporters asked, what future plans do Lucas and Berman have for Star Wars and Star Trek?

"In Episode 2," Lucas reveals, "Jar Jar will return, and his part will be even bigger than in Episode 1! I have determined thatwith my new technology, I don't even need actors at all. Except for Ahmed Best, who plays Jar Jar, whose multi-faceted genius I cannot capture on computers."

Ahmed Best himself then took the stage. After a warm hug with back pats from George, Ahmed announced, "Mesa think yousa all stinky like sookaboo fongda in a heyblibber." Lucas jumped in and explained in great detail what sookaboo fongda was, why no one had heard of it, and where exactly in the Episode 1 script it's briefly mentioned. The heyblibber, of course, as all fans know, is Boss Nass' submarine. Then, Berman and Lucas burst into applause, when Best continued, "Mesa kicky poodyhoo out of anyone who talksa bombad about Lucas. Fans all over world am stupiday."

Asked the same question, Rick Berman scoffed, "Hell, I don't know! I just got into a good rut on plots for Voyager. Let them fight pro wrestlers every week, for all the f*** I care. " When informed that the show was already doing that, Berman said, "Damn! There goes my idea for Star Trek 10! Hey, George, can I borrow some Ewoks?"


Sev Jr.
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 10:37:16 PM
IP: cache-2.spg.va.webcache.rcn.net

Questions about giving credits in my archieved RP: Who all do I need to give
credits to? I know I owe credit to one RPer for allowing me to visit that
universe. But whom do I give credit to for the concept of DC? Since I am
borrowing the concept of the third race, whom do I need to give credit to
for that?

If every lurker added 10-15 byters to this room per week, this room would
be over 1 megabyte per week.

I subscribe to the theory of multiple universes when it comes to fanfiction.
You can borrow my characters and have them act out of character without my
permission but then you're NOT in my universe and I can do little about it
unless you're making money off of it. But if you get my consent, we can
attract a bigger audience by having a crossover. But plagiarism is a crime.

**DC CONSPIRACY CONTINUES**
DPH arrives at Ms. SuperSpeed's home. He knocks on the door and gets let in.

"I've been expected you," said Ms. SuperSpeed.

"So Mr. Connect told you I was coming, heh," replied DPH.

"Yep. Why are you here?" asked Ms. SuperSpeed.

"I am looking for information and allies. What can you tell me about
Reconnect?" asked DPH.

"We were married one week before he died." Ms SuperSpeed cries. "But I am
pregnant with his child whom I will name ReConnect Junior."

"I'm sorry. Can you help me in an upcoming battle against NCA?" asked DPH.

"I can't due to the pregnacy. I do wish you well, though," replied Ms.
SuperSpeed.
**END DC CONSPIRACY SAGA for now**
Daniel Paul Hightower - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 10:23:31 PM
IP: max1-68.cwy.cei.net

Kioto---these are from the "commandments"
8 - Thou shalt not use another author's characters in thine stories without permission. Ever.

9 - Thou shalt not play in another author's (or authors') universe without permission. Ever.

Yes yes, they are not "laws" with real consquences- but lets face it, they are part of respecting other's ideas. I think pretty much, if followed, nips any trouble in the bud.


jenna
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 09:45:50 PM
IP: 1cust88.tnt20.hou3.da.uu.net

Jenna: Thanks. :)
Doug
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 09:45:02 PM
IP: pool-209-138-214-11.dlls.grid.net

Doug- I love the RP! ^_^
jenna
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 09:34:15 PM
IP: 1cust88.tnt20.hou3.da.uu.net

Oh please guys I was being funny with the ten commandments thing! hehehe you know. ^_^
I do think there are very good guidelines, which writers should follow. I wish a lot of people would bother to read them and follow them (the proofreading one first and formost. Though my posts don't show it- I am very insistant that all my grammer and spelling is correct in my fics.)

But as for "it's okay to steal from those above you but not your peers" I don't buy it. How you define those "above you" varies from situation to situation and can be redefined to suit the plagerist's tastes.

I have gotten ideas from other people, esp. Station 8 comment rooms. I always go through the effort of emailing the people to ask them if they would mind if I wrote about their ideas. As most of these ideas come up in discussion there, and are not fic ideas perse, there is typically no problem. This is not only courteous for anyone, but smart- called my CYA approach- and boy does it avoid problems later on. (something the business world taught me!)

Patrick, for once I agree with you. I think you pretty much nailed it. The characters may be cannon, yes, but the story idea is orginal and belongs to the fic author. As such, unless you hear directly from them, I think "talons off" is the best policy. Respect the work of others and they (typically) will respect yours.
jenna
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 09:31:06 PM
IP: 1cust88.tnt20.hou3.da.uu.net

Mecord> <<"There is no spoon.">>: SPOON!
Anyone else want to see the Tick vs. Neo?

Robby> <<Now THAT... Is a secret>>: Right. I just thought it was a question that should be brought up for the room.

DPH> Well wishes on a speedy recovery.

Warpmind> <<Close, but no cigar...>>: Right, but due to Weisman's Law (in conjunction with Abduction), Brooklyn will be alive eventually.
<<Matt won't be the only knight reincarnated>>: Right. Four more, but since Rutgers's mascot is the Scarlet Knight, who was originally Galahad, I've started to pay more attention when someone mentions Galahad.
<<I kinda lost track of some of the knights...>>: Let's see... Lancelot, Galahad and Bedevere (Jump out of the rabbit); Robin (who personally wet himself at the battle of Badon Hill), (the aptly named) Sir Not-appearing-in-this-film; Gawaine, Ector, and Bors (that's five... Three sir. Three.); Gaheris, Gareth, Agravaine, Mordred, Percival, Lamorak, Owain, Lionel, Cai, Balin, Balan.

Toku Kai, etc.> Fanfic vs Fanfic fanfic: The problem as I see it seems to lie in access, community, and degree. Fanfic authors seem to often attach email addresses and other methods of contact with their works and invite readers to reply. And since they tend to reach a smaller audience than original content providers, this makes it easier to get in touch with them directly.
Fanfic authors seem to gather to display their works (e.g. GFW Arch), and perhaps even participate in more social situations (e.g. here, the Gatherings) and therefore might develop a sense of kinship or community with other fanfic authors. Therefore, it is more of an insult to be robbed by someone with whom you might of identified than with a total stranger (Note: I am not claiming fanfic is itself theft, but with improper usage it may become such).
The recent outrage has been mostly about the use of blocks of unedited text interwoven with new ideas, although it is still not nice that characters and plot were used without permission in the process. The former seems to be worse because it violates the direct output of the fanfic author, while the latter would violate ideas extrapolated (what they see may not have been what was intended) from said output.
Note: I am not an author, leagal authority or literary theorist by any strech of the imagination, and what I just said may be (and most likely is) completely wrong and have no basis in any reality. Plus, I am an engineer, so the chances of the words forming coherent sentences or resembling my original thoughts diminish drastically.

Kyryn> <<'Sleepy driving' is actually more or a problem than drunk driving nowadays>>: Take a note of my father, upon returning the second night of Woodstock, he niticed the car drifting sideways and the driver asleep, so he wisely instructed his friend to wake up and pull over to the side of the road, for wich I can probably attribute my current existance. (Of course, he then decided to open a window for fresh air and blinked, when suddenly it was morning and there was a cow looking in through the window.)

Winterwolf> <<I'd definitely read [TimeDancer the untold stories]>>: But it persents a problem in the difficulty of putting together what could be considered a progressing storyline (would everything be disjointed, or could they get a sense of building a storyline over the season?)

CSH> Link: The team has good taste in embedded midis.

DPH> <<the voice actor for Brooklyn wanting relief>>: Jeff Bennet never gets any time off (how many voices has he done so far? Can we count that high?).

Aaron> <<Thanks for putting up that link to the symphony of Eva>>: No problem. This is about the third time I've done it.
<<I know what I want for christmas>>: Symphony or S^2 Works?

SOROW> <<Will a few of you please encourage my best friend Joe to come back in here>>: Consider me encouraging.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 09:20:10 PM
IP: gside.dorm.rutgers.edu

Re: fanfic > Let me make another attempt to explain my POV, even though I fear this debate is just going to continue in circles like the old "chicken and the egg" question.

Let's talk explicit versus implied approval for a moment. With the exception of a few individuals like the ones Kyryn mentioned who actively work to prevent fanfic derived from their works, most fanfic on the net goes happily on it's way without complaint from the movie studios, tv networks, etc. that created the original properties it is based on. Why? One reason is the uncertainty in the law Kyryn also mentioned regarding "fair use." But another reason that most companies realize is that fanfic generates more publicity. That means higher ratings for ongoing shows, more value in sindication, and bigger box office grosses at the movies. So the vast majority of screenwriters, producers, studios, and networks aren't out there screaming for no more fanfic. And without any explicit disapproval, most fic authors (including me) don't see a huge moral problem. Disney lawyers aren't knocking on our doors with cease and desist orders, and they probably never will be.

Now, an opinion based on my observations...

Most fanfic authors (including me), DO have a moral / ethical problem with someone who outright copies passages of text or "borrows" ideas or characters without asking and uses them as their own. And I think that's comes from probably just as much an emotional reaction as anything based on logically reasoned ethics. Even if I've used Goliath, Elisa, Brooklyn, Broadway, Lex and Angela in a fic, and borrowed canon characters, I've still invested part of myself in the story I've written. And since fanfic isn't written for any type of tangible compensation, there's an expectation of respect for my creativity and the time I've invested that goes along with that fic when I post it.

I don't see the "Ten Commandments of Fanfic" as absolute ethical laws like the real Ten Commandments. Rather, they're like the rules of etiquette. There's no legal authority enforcing those, either... society as a whole simply reserves the right to enforce them by making its collective displeasure known to someone who breaks them.

In closing for now... I'll add that I've heard it said that in writing, there's really no such thing as a 100% original idea. Even what Greg did in "Gargoyles" was inspired by earlier works of others, who's works in turn were inspired by even earlier works... and so on, all the way back to the days when our ancestors first painted on cave walls.
Patrick Toman
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 07:57:09 PM
IP: 98aff021.ipt.aol.com

Here's another Site on MSN. I laughed my @$$ off!
Tim P.
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 07:32:42 PM
IP: bn821-01.wsc.edu

SORROW: you have to go see STOMP? you have my sympathy. {then again, i got dragged out to to a live showing two nights in a row}. and tell your friend Joe that we're behind him. {right guys?}.

okay, i amn, at least.


Rodlox
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:58:57 PM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

Jenna> <<It is after all in the fanfic writers' ten commandments.>> One problem, unlike the actual Ten Commandments, when posed with the question "Why", one can not come back with the "Because God said so, damnit" argument.

"Commandments" and other rules we like to lay down are just those, rules we lay down. If they are to have value, they need justification behind them. I'm setting forth the challenge to back up what Tara said, that there is an ethical reason behind the rule of "Steal from your betters, but never from your peers."

What I have done here is a heinous act, I know. I'm trying to make steak out of a lot of people's Sacred Cow.

Jessie>

Jessie makes the perfect points here. And you are right, it IS a double-standard with the creators. And that very double standard is the ethical dillema.

You see, when we start talking in terms of "ethical" like Tara did in her essay, or even "Fair" we are bound to certain basic constructions about equity.

The first of which, is that fairness in rules or a system stems from the unilateral application of the same principles to all people in all cases.

Aaron sights that:

<<Creators are generally far-off people most of us will never meet, and besides, they got paid to create the show we're ficing. Fic writers are people we know.>>

This effects us on two distinct levels.

On one, there is the definition of our friendship communittee, which we can justify paying extra kindness or deserved respect to our friends and family.

On the other, we have a matter of ethics, in which what Aaron points out has no application other than rationalizing our de-humanization or marginalization of the original writer.

"He got paid for it" or "Gene Roddenbury is a sell-out" or "George Lucas deserves to die for Jar-Jar" are all ways in which we rationalize treating people outside of our basic principles.

We rationalize all we want, but it doesn't make it right.

The truth is that if want to be ethically equitable and fair here, we have to have a consistent rule of all fictional stories / intellectual property, Greg's, Lucas's, Christine's, Spike's, everybodies. To do otherwise is to make questionable assumptions and value judgments about differentiating the worth of others and their work.

That accepted, we are left with only two considerations for the equitable treatment of all "intellectual property" / released fiction.

A.) Most credit be given?

Yes, yes on all counts. To take what someone else created and try to pass it off as your own (like what happened to Christine) is plagierism. This applies to plagierizing Greg or Christine or some person you've never met, or some 8 year old kid down the street.

It is a consistent application, thusly equitable.

B.) Must consent be given?

If we answer "Yes" here and apply it fairly to all people, then we must ask for consent to write ANY fan-fiction.

If we answer "No" here and apply it fairly to all people, we don't have to ask permission to write fan-fiction or use intellectual property for non-commercial uses of any kind.

What happens when we accept "Yes" is we make non-consented fan-fiction (the bulk of fan-fiction) unethical to share.

What happens when we accept "No" is we make consent something that you get out of curteousy or niceness or basic respect.

This makes writing un-consented fan-fiction rude and "not-nice" or disrespectful, but it does not make it a crime. There is an important distinction between rudeness and crime, just as there is an important difference between calling someone a "jerk" or "meany" as opposed to a "thief".

As for me, I like my friends in the fandom, and I wouldn't want to hurt their feelings, so I'm never walking off with anyone's characters and fic-verses ... however, I also can't pick up a torch and go join the lynch mob the next time someone takes a fic-character without asking, but still disclaims the credit for the character.

That's just the way it worked out in my head, and what kind of an answer I got back when I brought the idea over to the Philosophy department of my college too.

Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:50:24 PM
IP: 141.133.151.90

**RP HERE**

In Thailog's secret base, Dr. Ed Edison is wailing at the top of his lungs to bemoan the destruction of his creation Frankunsteen (which he learned about through a satellite camera that was watching the battle). "I can't believe it!" he cries. "I designed him perfectly! This can't happen! It can't!" "Shut up!" Zale snaps, slapping him hard and knocking the mad scientist down. "I lost more than you! Do you realize how many soldiers I sent to that battle!" "And Alchemist was not even successful!" Donna Gardner adds, then lets off more than a few curses. Corax joins in with some random profanities of his own until Tyl tells him to shut up and then turns to Thailog with a disturbed frown. "All of you be quiet!" Thailog shouts as he notices it and his associates immediately shut up. Except for Dahak, who chuckles for a moment. Thailog glares red at him and he shuts up as well. "Now," the clone gargoyle growls, "I am aware our latest plan failed. The loss of Alchemist, Zale's soldiers, and Dr. Edison's creation was regrettable. But we can always rebuild our losses. And we are going to do that now, and not anything else. I have learned from my involvement in this conflict so far that our adversaries respond to us when we initiate a battle. They do not come after us on their own. Therefore, we must gather and prepare our forces, so that our next plan is one they cannot stop. We must do nothing else while we are concentrating on this, so as not to provoke our enemies lest we risk further damage. Do you all agree?" Everyone frowns for a moment, then they all shrug and nod, seeing his wisdom. "What if Asil comes back though?" Tyl asks. "You know that if she comes back, she'll want to do otherwise." "Then we'll eliminate her if necessary," Thailog shrugs. "Any more questions? No? Very well them. We must all get back to work on building the clone army to seize Washington when the time comes. They are still very far away from being ready. Edison, you get back to cloning them. Dahak and Kharsus will imbue them with magic, Gardner will ensure their programming remains flawlessly committed to our service, and Corax will help her. Zale, you start getting ready to train the clones that are fully prepared. Tyl, you shall contact Gothmenes and get us more weapons from him." "Yes, sir," the evil hacker nods. Everyone else nods as well and then gets up and goes off to carry out their tasks as Thailog shakes his head and turns away, wishing he were back in Manhattan.

Elsewhere, in a certain private investigator's office in Los Angeles, a blonde female detective is looking at several photographs of the Ravens along with a vampire friend of hers. "Demons, right?" Kate asks Angel. "I thought you should know about them. They claimed to be funded by the government." "Hmm," Angel frowns. "Well, if they weren't causing trouble..." "They were," Kate says. "They destroyed a large portion of the city fighting each other." "That means they'll probably do it again, right?" Cordelia asks from the door. "We should stop them." "Yeah, maybe we should," Angel agrees. He then taps a photograph of Kitainia. "Some of them don't look like demons, though. This one's a gargoyle, and her companions are human. They could be good guys." "What's a gargoyle?" Kate asks, frowning. Cordelia raises her eyebrows. "You don't watch the news? There's a bunch of gargoyles in New York that terrorize people!" "Gargoyles do not terrorize people," Angel cuts off Kate's reply quickly. "At least not usually. I guess we better check these people out." "Definitely," Kate nods, "and I'm coming with you. I won't have people that cause as much destruction as this terrorizing the city." She frowns as her radio buzzes and answers it. "Lockley. What, there was a disturbance at the Tiki Motel and I have to go investigate it? This anything like what happened there in 1984 with that cop mass murderer? A tank and small gang war battle in the parking lot? The same people that were at the Nielsen Building? Okay, Captain, I'm on my way." She lowers the radio and turns back to Angel. "The gargoyle and her friends have been sighted, I guess this is our opportunity to go talk to them." "Then let's go," Angel says, standing up and grabbing his coat. "Should I call Wesley?" Cordelia asks him, and he shakes his head. "No, not yet. Just stay here and mind the office. I think Kate and I can take care of this by ourselves." "Are you sure?" Cordelia frowns. "I saw the news report on what happened at Nielsen. Those people are heavily armed and very dangerous." "They might be on our side, though," Angel says. "I better call the SWAT team on the way," Kate sighs. "Just in case." Cordelia nods in agreement that that would be a good idea, then turns and walks back to her desk while Angel and Kate leave the office and the screen's image fades.

**LOOK FOR AN UPDATE ON THE RAVENS' SITUATION AT THIS POST'S END, FOR NOW PAUSE RP**

Hello friends. :) Yet another week has began for us, and Easter is almost here. The year 2000 is sure going by fast, isn't it? <grin> I think I've enjoyed it pretty much so far, hope that continues. Some good news on my fanfic progress, the writer's block has ended and I'm now coming into the homestretch on Night of the Symbiotes Part 1. Give me another two weeks or so, and I should have it posted (college assignments are preventing it from being finished sooner :(. Still looking for an artist to do illustrations, but I guess if I don't find one it will be okay. <sighs> The writing itself is entertaining enough on its own, or so my beta-readers have told me when they've looked over what I've put down up to now. And that's a good thing, right? :) It is to me anyway. Now on to reviews and replies.

Keeping the Faith: Saw it last weekend with Kit, as she said we did I believe. :) I enjoyed the film as well, its script wasn't that great and mostly predictable but the acting of the three stars more than made up for that in entertainment value. I also liked the morals of the story and the plot. Hope Norton's next film is something edgier (I prefer him in those roles), but this one was good enough to be worth the price. :)

Niamhgold: I too am sorry about your dog dying, sorry I somehow missed saying so last week. :( Glad you're getting over it now. You'll be glad to know that I have been rereading your fanfic recently and it's helped me get over my own writer's block more than a little. :) Just checked out Earth, Water, and Air last night, and enjoyed it immensly once again. The character development and plot of the story are wonderfully written, and so's your assessment of the Matrix's capabilities. I like what you did with Xanatos and Bruno in the story too. Thanks for the entertainment, I know you'll appreciate this feedback. :)

Good X-Files last night, surprised no one has talked about it yet. It had a very interesting plot for a "Weird-Happening-of-the-Week" ep, and some good character developments on Skinner, Scully, and Mulder. I also must thank Chris Carter for not doing the expected thing and having CSM get in trouble in this one. (If you saw the ep, you'll understand what I mean. :)

SOROW: Congratulations to you on becoming the Captain of your school's drill team. Good luck handling the responsibility of the position and hope it doesn't keep you away from us too much. :) You're welcome for all the cheers, encouragements, etc. which I'm sure built your confidence and helped you succeed. Do a good job now, okay? Kit and I might come see you sometime. <chuckle>

SJ: Sorry I missed saying so last week, but I am glad to hear Jet Li will be Kato in the Green Hornet movie too. He won't be as good as Bruce Lee was in the part (no one could be), but he should still be very enjoyable. :) And as I've said, I totally agree with you about Steven Seagal. He is long due for a Joyride, or at least a good kicking of butt.

Jaden: You were right about my writer's block. :) Thanks for the encouragement. Hope you are able to come back in here sometime soon and make us all smile. Until then, good luck, stay cool, and be sure to enjoy your life. :)

Exin: Yeah, you're right. Of course looking behind a barrier is often easier if someone lowers it just a bit. <grin>

Stephen: Thanks for understanding about the birthday. Like Kit, I promise we'll find something for you next year. Hope to know you better by then so we're more sure what you'd like.

Shadowrider: There's an NFL player called Douglas Ramsey. Also a Marvel character. Neither of their names, to my knowledge, has any relation to mine. <shrugs> Glad you agree with me about Dolph Lundgren (btw, the character he voices in my fanfics is Michael Canmore, the most motionless and generally inexpressive Hunter ever, if anyone cares :). Glad also to know that you watch Walker Texas Ranger. It's a very good show, and it does show the viewer a lot about Texas too. Not everything (only living here does that), but a lot. <grin>

Dragonlance: I've enjoyed this series too, Lord Soth being my overall favorite character (I happen to enjoy tragic menacingly evil bad guys :). Laurana, Tasslehoff, and Raistlin are my favorites of the main characters, and the rest are pretty good too. All have been very inspiring. The Dragonlance stories that followed the two original tragedies have too, though unfortunately they've usually done more to show me what not to do in a story than what to do. :(

Wolves: I rather like them myself, agree that they're noble and interesting creatures who don't deserve half the bashing they get. But at the same time I do understand the reasons behind the bashing. I used to be quite scared of wolves as a child, many people still are. Therefore I forgive it whenever I hear it. There, that's an unbiased response. :)

Christine: I too enjoyed Bittersweet, with all its very interesting plot and character developments. Hope the loose ends it left dangling and all the new questions it raised will be resolved soon, I'm looking forward to it. <grins> Keep up the good fanfic work!

Fanfic Discussion: This was an issue I personally hoped to stay out of, beyond of course cheering Christine on as she goes after the person who took her stories, but since people have asked us writers' opinions I'll respond more. Before I say anything, though, please understand this is a touchy issue for me, mostly cause I'm a fic writer and therefore somewhat biased. I also don't really know what my opinion is on all this, I've always been one of the many who's just assumed that with asking and disclaimers fanfiction is okay. And also very enjoyable. :) Yet I can see Patrick's points about how it can be considered stealing ideas, and Kaioto's points as well. I don't know if I agree with either one of them, I'm more inclined to support the words of Jessie Feff in how this whole thing should be resolved. Kyryn's definitions of this debate's aspects I also agree with and support. My own opinions on the issues debated are that I think writing fanfic is perfectly alright with disclaimers and the creator's permission, whether given in response to a direct query (like I give to Christine whenever I want to borrow her characters) or a simple toleration and acceptance of fanfic when it exists (like the way Greg seems to feel about Gargoyles fanfic on the Net). With this opinion in mind, I intend to continue writing fanfiction. If at some future point Greg, Joss Whedon, Stan Lee, Christine, or any of the other people whose plots and characters I use in my stories tell me I can't do it any more I will of course apologize and defer to their wishes (and probably stop writing :(, but for now I hope to continue work on my fanfic and enjoy it. Hope my readers enjoy it too, and that all the other readers and writers of fanfic out there enjoy theirs as well. :)

Mecord: I agree with you about immortality. Living with the mistakes made, and trying not to make any more, can be the hardest part of anybody's life, an immortal's especially. You can change your behavior, apologize for it, and maybe even be forgiven, but memories and repurcussions always remain. I never cease pushing that moral across with the immortal characters in my stories. :)

Theresa: Good to know your eye's doing better, hope it fully heals soon, I was sorry to hear about it getting injured. :( Till it's completely fixed you'll be in my prayers along with everyone else's. :)

Nightwalker: Welcome back. I'm sorry to say it took a little reading of your post before I remembered you. :( But it's very good to see you again now that you're here, I'm glad to see your life has calmed down enough for you to drop in again. :) Hope to soon say the same for all our other absent friends (that includes you, Joe! :).

Daniel Johnson: Liked your bit to the lurkers, hope they read your words and join us. A person can always use more friends. :) Speaking of which...

Thanks to all of you who recently commented on the trials Kit's gone through in her life. Your support means a lot to her, and thus to me as well. :) I too agree that she is a very strong woman who's been through a lot of things most of us couldn't handle, the fact that she did handle them is one of the things I admire about Kit the most. I also admire the ability she has to judge people fairly once she gets to know them and ignore preconceptions she might have about them, thus finding true friends. She got that when she was fifteen from the bikers she mentioned, it took me significantly longer to develop it. <sighs> All of you in here are true friends to both of us of course, and I'm glad you are so. While both Kit and I hope that we never have to go through such trials as the ones she mentioned again in our lives, we know that with your support helping us it will be much easier if it ever does happen. :) Thank you all, very much.

Aaaron: <shakes head> No, we haven't sold the film rights for Kit's life. Nor will we, probably. You see, Kit and I did go to Hollywood last year and tried to sell the story to a bunch of different writers, producers, and directors. None of them accepted it. Most just said they didn't want to make a movie about human strength and coming of age like it, they preferred the drivel Hollywood usually puts out. Others didn't think it would be a good movie and therefore wouldn't go for it. Even the ones who liked the idea of Kit's life being a movie wanted to put stuff in the film that wasn't in her actual life, like a romance with her and one of the bikers, massive action and motorcycle chases, etc. Some of them also wouldn't share her sympathy for her parents at the end of the whole thing, and wanted to end it differently, or develop the characters differently, you get the idea. Nobody in the directing, producing, or scriptwriting industry was willing to tell the story as it really happened, saying it was "too long," "too boring," "too hard to get a lesson from," and other comments like that. Kit and I got so disgusted by it all we abandoned the idea. There were a few actors we met in Hollywood who were interested in actually doing the story as it should be done, including Natalie Portman (who of course wanted to play Kit), Robert Duvall (who wanted to do her dad), Seth Green (Kit cast him as Rick Johnson, a supporting biker), Jeff Bridges, John Goodman (who wanted to do Snake and Cobra respectively), and Mena Suvari (who would have played Stephanie). But without a producer and director for the film, it was no go. <sighs> Oh well. (BTW, just so you know, I made all this up. :)

Weapons: I too prefer to fight with my fists, though I can also be handy with a club, knife, and gun when I need to be. That's not often, thankfully. Most of my problems are usually ones that can be solved with words. I don't live in that dangerous a part of the world. :)

Winterwolf's Poll: Put me down as another C person. I liked the stories about Brooklyn and Sata, and think the pace of their relationship was just right given the circumstances involved, their characters and feelings, etc. Hope to see more good Timedancer stories soon.

DPH: Sorry about your accident. Glad you survived and didn't hurt anyone, hope your wounds heal soon. <sighs> Don't know what else to say, other than that you'll be in my prayers.

And I guess everyone else in here will be too, during this wonderful tax season. :) On that note, our accountant better send me and Kit the forms soon. We haven't gotten them yet. Very worrisome. Hope the situation is remedied soon. See you all later, have a good week.

**RESUME THE RP ACTION**

In some part of his mind, though he is barely able to think coherently, Doug feels worried as he observes Kit's concern for him, and her confused frown as she asks Bardic to explain further about Mecord going to Hell. Before the dragon can do so, Jammer cuts in loudly. "Hold on, guys!" he shouts. "Thinking about Doug is good and all, but aren't we forgetting our other casualty of this night? What about Jaden?" Kit gasps. "You're right," she says. "Jaden...Jaden's gone. That explosion took him out, just before the imp shot Doug." She sighs and looks away. "And we hardly ever got to know that guy," Keith hangs his head. "He was one hell of a fighter." "Yeah," nods Boris. "And a good friend." "All we have left of him is his weapon," Shap sighs. "I hope God's ensuring he's in a better place." "He is," says Shauna. "If there's any justice in this world." Stephanie nods and cries. "I'm going to miss him!" "We all will," says Gubio, shaking his head as he chokes back tears. "We've lost a lot of people in this war. Those bikers Kit knew, SJ almost, Jim Noying and Ratina, and now Jaden too. It's all so sad." "War is always sad," says Erin. "Hopefully we will end this one before any more die." "Yeah," Tricia agrees. "I guess we'll have to have a memorial service for Jaden later." "Can we afford to?" asks Lathrop. "I mean, not that I'm not advocating we should ignore his death, but we have larger issues to worry about, like Thailog." Kit nods. "And Doug, and Asil." She sighs. "You're right, we need to get after solving our problems with them. We've had memorials for our other casualties, though, we should give Jaden one. He was a good friend to us. Orion can get it set up in the morning, after we all rest." Orion nods. "I'll do that with pride." "Okay then," Kit says. "Let's all go get some sleep. In the morning we'll be rested and can better figure out what to do about all that's just happened. But everyone, we are going to keep a watch on those soldiers we captured. The demon too. Until we've interrogated them all beyond the shadow of a doubt and decided what to do with them, we keep them prisoner and we don't leave here. Is that okay with everyone?" All the Ravens nod. "Alright then," Kit says. "I guess Tom and Elena will take first watch, since they're with the prisoners now." "You all need to rest," Bardic cuts in. "Lloky and I will watch your prisoners. Just get the sleep you need. We'll stay with you for now." "Alright," Kit nods, "if that's okay with you." Bardic nods that it is, and she smiles. "Okay then. Let's all go get some rest." The Ravens nod and start drifting off, the dragons going to relieve Tom and Elena while everyone else heads back to their rooms. Doug watches them all in confusion, wondering what is going on, who they are, and what they were talking about. He feels like he should know, but his mind can't form the reasons. However, as Kit takes his hand and leads him back to their room, saying that maybe rest will help his memory, he does smile, feeling comfort at the touch. Then he hears Kit say his name and thinks, Doug, my name's Doug. Okay, I'm glad I know that now. But who am I, though? I wish I could remember, I should know, but I can't even remember how to find out. He sighs heavily to himself and lets Kit lead him on, wondering how long it will be before the answers come.

**DON'T WORRY, THIS WILL BE CONTINUED, AND I WILL GET MY MEMORY BACK. IT'S JUST GONNA TAKE A WHILE. :) FOR NOW END RP**
Doug - [frostfire@mail.utexas.edu]
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:48:44 PM
IP: pool-209-138-162-115.dlls.grid.net

***Kyryn sneaks back in once more***

Aaron> Law #34, second corollary. Click my name below to go to a site that has the Laws of Anime posted.

***Kyryn heads out***
Kyryn - [<<<----------]
Denton, TX
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:45:45 PM
IP: 216.35.46.129

Hmmm...heated discussions in here. I'm really looking forward to the weekend cause we have Thursday, Friday, and Monday off. And guess what? I'm going to see Stomp tomorrow night! Yeah baby!

EVERYONE: Will a few of you please encourage my best friend Joe to come back in here and see he has some friends who he doesn't have to deal with in RL. He's very upset, stressed out, and tired and he could use a lot of love. Thanks.

GB> *sigh* My dad claims he's too busy to fiddle with it right now, just as he was too busy about three months ago. But if I have anything to say about it, it'll be running by May. Or else :)
SOROW
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:36:52 PM
IP: dll2a010-0369.splitrock.net

***Kyryn sneaks in***

Dave> Bear in mind that TGS is a fanfiction continuation of the series from where season 2 of the TV series left off. TGS started from that point and is branching out from there. As such, there are many new characters that are introduced to the series along the way.

***Kyryn sneaks out again and gets ready to fight traffic to get home****
Kyryn
Denton, TX
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:25:00 PM
IP: 216.35.46.129

Dave> Be patient, finish reading season 1, and you'll get the answer. To tell you now would spoil it.

Green Baron> August 4th? I'll make sure not to forget.

Need to go flop face down on my bed for a short while now...
Mandolin, who's just having one of those days - [weird_web@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:16:02 PM
IP: 144.175.20.114

I think fanfic has it's own legitimacy- the fruit and perserves motif is a good one. But I do think fanfic writers should not lift off of other fanfic writers- period. It is after all in the fanfic writers' ten commandments.
jenna
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:07:46 PM
IP: 1cust174.tnt12.houston.tx.da.uu.net

Howdy there,

I'm reading through the first season of TGS Gargoyles, and I'm slightly confused. How are Mavis O'Connor and Nicholas Maddox connected to the events from the TV episodes? I actually have all the eps on tape, but my TV broke so I can't watch them right now. Info would be appreciated. Thanks.

Dave
Dave - [dop3333@hotmail.com]
Montreal
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:06:40 PM
IP: ppp-5800-01a-2080.mtl.total.net

Dang, knew I forgot something.

Gside> Thanks for putting up that link to the symphony of Eva. I know what I want for christmas. :)

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 05:58:41 PM
IP: ppp-88.tnt-2.sat.smartworld.net

Right now, I am not driving home from work due to car damage. I swear I do better on Sunday night through Monday morning when I work overtime. I believe somebody must be watching after me. I want to leave this shift and work daytime but **insert Work rant** I can't. I was already planning on doing a sleep study and because of the accident I am moving it up on my to-do-list.

I had an new eye examen today because I broke my left lens. Sheash, I took one hour to go through it.

Apology accepted, Winterwolf. If anyone wants to join my RP, please do consultation first. I have all of the text of my RP archieve in one file, I just have to format it.

Great thinking on fan-fiction debate. I know the lines are blurry.

**SAFETY ADVICE**
3rd shift is most dangerous shift for people leaving work. Almost everybody goes to sleep when they get home. To all who would work 3rd shift, get plenty of sleep before going to work. If you too sleepy when you leave, don't drive yourself home.
**END SAFETY ADVICE**

Each season of TD is 10 years long? Hmm. I guess that would probably be ideal because of the voice actor for Brooklyn wanting relief.

**DC CONSPIRACY SAGA continues**
"What news?" asked DPH.

"I am dying. DC broke his spell of immortatility with me. Your revitalizing me is only delaying the inevitable." replied Mr. Connect.

"What of a permanent rejovenation spell?" asked DPH.

"It's not that simple. I'm beyond rejovenation spells. If I cast one on myself, NCA will kill me while I rejovenate. Do you see the dilemna?" said Mr. Connect.

"Yes. I will do my best to keep you alive until I am ready to fight NCA," replied DPH.

DPH summoned energy from his energy ball to reverse the aging process on Mr. Connect. He successfully reverse aged Mr. Connect 2 years and left him in perfect health.

"Is that better?" asked DPH.

"You've only delayed the inevitable," said Mr. Connect, grumpily.

"Can you give me the address of Ms. SuperSpeed and Ms. Netlag?" asked DPH.

"Sure. I'll write it down for you," said Mr. Connect. He wrote the addresses down and handed the sheet of paper to DPH.

"Thanks. I'll get back in touch with you soon," said DPH.

Mr. Connect didn't respond so DPH left Mr. Connect's home right away.

DPH decided to rework his spell for recharging his energy ball. He adjusted to drain power solar power continously from all the planets and moons in the Solar Sytem except Earth and its Moon instead of messing up Earth's weather system.

DPH started off to visit Ms. Netlag.
**END DC CONSPIRACY SAGA for now**
Daniel Paul Hightower (DPH) - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 05:27:46 PM
IP: max1-55.cwy.cei.net

Warpmind>> Your commission was mailed Saturday morning, with a little extra something added in. Hope it makes it there in time!!

Fanfic piracy>> I tend to play hardball with offenders. 'Nuff said.

Brooklyn & Sata>> The nice thing about traviling with Phoenix Gate is that there are all those adventures that TGS just didn't have time to cover. You can do an awful lot of getting aquainted behind the scenes.... *L*

*goes back to the Pendragon story that will NOT end......*
Spike - [<==Hockey Mom]
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 04:59:20 PM
IP: pppta02-112.ght.airmail.net

Aaron wanders in, having resurrected his combo Spurs/Knicks jersey.

Ah, spring. That time of year when a young man's thoughts turn to... the playoffs. Depending on how things go, I'm either going to be bouncing off the walls or chewing the furniture from now until, oh say, June. So I appologize if I get a little hard to deal with.

Speaking of being hard to live with, who besides me spent the day frantically filling out their 1040 form?

Starsinger> Ouch. Hope you feel better soon.

Mec> I remember Wild Palms. I loved it. I wonder why the powers that be have never let Oliver Stone near network television again. ;)

Winterwolf> Garlon looks like a young Harrison Ford, eh? No wonder Sekahmet liked him. ;)

Christine> Fic piracy> Well, they say plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery. Remind me to have the chibi-wiseguys express their appreciation to this mook.

Fic piracy in general> I should know better then to get between Patrick and Toku in a word fight, but here goes.

Fanfic is generally done without the consent of the creator. We, having fairly close contact with Greg, are the exception rather then the rule. Creators are generally far-off people most of us will never meet, and besides, they got paid to create the show we're ficing. Fic writers are people we know. They're friends. They recieve no compensation for their art except the satisfaction of creating it, and occasional feedback. To steal from them violates the spirit of the fandom, violates the laws of our online clan, as it were. It's rude, inconsiderate, and dishonest. And that's all I have to say about that. And I give this about ten minutes before Toku skewers me. (Verbally, I hope)

Coyote> I dunno. After Future Tense, I can see Thom voicing a psychopath, no problem.

Kit> Words fail me. Have you sold the film rights to your life yet? ;)

Nightwalker, Bronx> Welcome back.

SJ> So Mike Myers is gonna be Shaggy? Nuts. I'd always hoped Nigel Planer, the guy who played Neil on The Young Ones, would get it.

Daniel J> That was pretty, man.

Gside<<And do the Jedi *really* want balance, or their own viewpoint triumphant?>> Ask Christine. ;) But seriously, if I understand things right, Anakin will not bring balance to the force himself, but he is instrumental in doing so, because without him, there would be no Luke, who eventually will.

Jaden> Good-bye, and good luck.

GB><<Maybe my lack of being a bastard appeals to the ladies :)>> Ah, that must be it.

DPH> Who knows, maybe you've got strange luck. Or maybe it was just good engineering. Is the car drivable, btw?

Caliope> SAAS as a cable channel? I wish! SAAS stands for San Antonio Animation Society, our once monthly club where I watch most of my anime.

Later.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 04:00:37 PM
IP: ppp-88.tnt-2.sat.smartworld.net

Fan-fic debate > I think there is another factor that some people are overlooking here. The person who stole Christine's fic did just that: stole it. S/he took Christine's actual writing and altered a few things, then tried to pass it off as her/his own. It wasn't simply a matter of her/him using a character of Christine's without permission. To show an equivalent of professional vs. fan-fic, this would be about the same as posting a transcript of an episode of Gargoyles written by Greg, for example, and claiming that s/he wrote it himself. In other words, taking credit for some else's idea/writing.

As for the use of a fan-fic writer's original characters, etc., by another fan...it seems to me that when one asks permission and disclaims properly, there usually isn't a problem. So why even bother to ask for permission, when fan-fic writers don't have the permission of their universe's original creator? Well, for one thing, because we as fan-fic writers are all peers. We exist in a community and to stick together we should show each other the proper respect. Technically I suppose I _could_ use Christine's, or Christi's, or Dylan's characters without consulting them, but if I upset them, I would be alienating a part of my community, and why should I want to do that? Concerning original creators, first of all, many of them are _not_ seen as peers, but more like lofty gods perched on high. :) I think that most fan-fic writers feel they _are_ showing them, and their characters, respect. After all, we loved Gargoyles enough to care about the characters and continue telling their stories, even though the show is gone. To continue the god metaphor, they provided the fruit; we're making the preserves. :)

Maybe this is a sort of a double standard as far as fan-fic creators vs. original creators go...still, if I knew that Greg was dead-set against fan-fic, I don't think I'd ever post mine. (Maybe I'm in the minority on that.) Anyhoo, the bottom line, as I see it: it's all about respect.
Jessie Feff - [feff@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 03:20:59 PM
IP: campc05.mrs.umn.edu

Kyryn-You're all evil every last one of you! (sighs) Oh well I guess if it's what you're good at, shine it on.
Oh and in case you're wondering when I refer to hell I'm refering to the School not the town. I like Denton it's not to big not too small.
Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
hell, tx
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 03:06:16 PM
IP: spider-th052.proxy.aol.com

Quick post for me.

DHP> Good to know you are okay. Driving while feeling the effects of sleep deprivation is dangerous. I know when you are feeling tired you just want to get home and go to sleep. Unfortunately it is similar in a way to driving drunk. Your judgement and perception are off. What I do when I'm driving and feel tired is just pull over to the shoulder/curb and take a nap. Usually that helps. I avoid driving if I'm tired or drunk, but sometimes a wave of sleepiness just hits you sometimes while you are driving. Other things that help are playing the music loud and opening the windows or cranking up the AC. Anyway I'm glad that you are okay. Things can be replaced but people or any living creature can not. <RP> I replied to your email. I apologize. I should have asked for permission to add to your RP. I was just so inspired by your work that I wanted to add to it.

Gside> TimeDancer the untold stories. I don't know about anyone else but I'd definitely read it.

Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 01:32:19 PM
IP: 206.15.122.13

::The Catholci schoolgirl scouts appear out of nowhere::

Questioner> Click on our link for the essay written by Tara O'Shea about sharing a fanfic Universe. This offers good guidelines about what to do.
Catholic schoolgirl scouts
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 11:01:14 AM
IP: 141.164.133.103

***Kyryn sneaks in***

Fanfic Debate> Let me call your attention to the article link posted yesterday. There are several links off that article regarding copyright and fair use.

Strictly speaking, use of 'published' original characters without consent of the original creator is a copyright violation. However, there is a caveat that allows 'fair use' in which the users are 1) Not taking the entirety of a work and posting it as their own since that would be plagiarism), but rather using the characters/situations in a somewhat original way (the 20% difference art rule may apply here); and, 2) not receiving any recompense for their work. This second rule is interesting because strictly speaking printed fanzines can be said to be in violation of it if they charge even materials cost.

It is not that fanfic does not have any legal standing, but rather that one has never been defined for it in a court of law. The big studios and publishing houses have, for the most part, declined to pursue it because of the murkiness of fair use.

Now, I do know of cases where a written author has pursued the fanfic issue sucessfully. Anne McCaffrey has a strict policy of not allowing fanfic of her Dragonriders of Pern to be posted online. She allows it offline, but has legally pursued online fics and people who have tried to sell materials based on her works online. Larry Niven also sucessfully pursued and got a cease and desist for a problem slash story involving one of his races, the Kzinti. However, neither of these cases were ever pursued all the way through a court trial or any sort.

Fanfic of a fanfic> Well, technically, if the original fanfic contains original characters, then the author has legal recourse at least involving the use of his/her original characters since any sort of publication does give copyright (at least the way that I understand it). Pursuing it legally would however be more complicated.

On to other matters:

Daniel Hightower> Congratulations, you are extremely lucky. Please get more sleep and hopefully the 'warning' that you were given will keep you safely alive in the future. :) 'Sleepy driving' is actually more or a problem than drunk driving nowadays.

Revel> You think that Robby is evil? *grin* The Head of Edits lives in the same town that you do and has copies of all the upcoming stories.

Winterwolf> So you know what's coming up, hmmm?

Poll> I agree with Mecord in that the wedding seemed to come too fast in the season. However, we must remember that there was an intervening amount of time between episodes and that Sata and Brook had to take what chance they could get--it might never come again.

Later All!

***Kyryn sneaks out again***


Kyryn
Denton, TX
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 10:47:56 AM
IP: 216.35.46.129

Daniel> WOW!!! That's just plain freeky. O.o ... I'm glad your ok. Man, you are either incredibly lucky or Something is looking out for you ...

Questioner> But that begs the dreaded question ... "Why?" are our "betters" any less of people? Are their emotions and wishes to be any less respected? This kind of segregationalist rules system never sits well with me.

Patrick Toman> Degrees of separation from what? What makes the separation from the original so significant in your mind. One would think that the original creator of a show or story would have FAR more reason to be upset if people fan-fic'ed his Completely Original work without consent, than some fan-boy/girl would for their Partially Original fan-fic.

I think my distinction here is to ask the question: Given the hypothetical situation that Greg suddenly became defensive of his characters and stories, and condemned all garg fan-ficl why would we still view people who "borrow" Brooklyn, Lexington, Goliath, and a whole CLAN of gargoyles, worse than someone who "borrows" say Madoc or Jericho or any other fan-fic character? Given that the story ideas for both are completely new and new characters are introduced and disclaimers given?

Basically, what I'm saying is, why do we have a More Protective set of standards for works that are Less original than the original. It seems like Selective Principle Disorder at work in the fan-fic community of most fandoms. Unlike us, most fandoms don't have blanket approval of fan-fiction from the show's creator, but they still make unconsented fan-fiction, and it is approved and revered.

When people write fan-fiction with the SAME criteria, but use the subject matter this time of another fan-fic, and not the original show, they are committing a crime in the eyes of this proto-society.

What it looks like to me is NIMBY sydrome. [Not In My Back Yard]

In most fandoms (not ours, but try any American fandom for Anime shows), people never pay the originator a call or letter to get consent, and go on and write fan-fiction.

This is approved of and accepted because it:

A.) Condones the rest of us "borrowing" characters and universes to create our own fan-fiction. AND
B.) Does not harm or endanger upsetting us on the basis that we don't Have a show with a fandom that could get fan-fictioned.

However, now we look at an identical situation with someone's fan-fic, apply the same principles, and get a completely different answer? No, there must be something else to it than the Rational principles.

Fan-Fic of Fan-Fic is created without permission, in the same exact criteria for originality and disclaimer as accepted fan-fiction.

This is condemned because:

A.) It would permit the rest of us to "Borrow" characters and universes to create our own fan-fiction. AND
B.) It has great potential to upset up because we ourselves write fan-fiction.
C.) It is rude.

Now, I understand why we might not like it when people are rude, but good manners are something parents are supposed to punish their kids for. I'm not your mother. If you want to be mean or rude, I may disapprove of your actions, but I can't say you don't have the right to the freedom to be mean or rude.

Beyond the rudeness factor, however, I want to know where the Consistent guidelines and rules come in. You know, the ones based on principles that apply to Everyone, not just a selected few?

I've worked long hours trying to come up with a real distinct, consistent rule for this, with logical extrapolations and applications of principles. I've asked friends and chat rooms. And still I've turned up Nothing.

Which leads me to a _Tentative_ conclusion set:

Either
A.) All fan-fiction is wrong.
B.) Fan-fiction has a greater "moral" value than original fiction.
C.) Some Fan-fiction writers are above the rules we set out / there are exceptions for certain materials (first hand, second hand).
D.) All fan-fic is permissible if executed in the same "correct" manner.

Applying Patrick's original rule, one would be forced to conclude A.

Applying what Patrick SEEMS to indicate in his second response: B, except where this superior value has come from and why is justifies such treatment has still not been rationally explained.

In case C, we see an inconsistent set of rules inequitably enforced over a population without justification in values. This is not acceptable for a good law/rule/principle.

Paying all people, regardless of who they are, the same respect and dignity as well as enforcing equally among all people the same principles, option D is the only option that does not eliminate fan-fiction or spawn in inequitable, irrational rules system.

You set ONE set of rules for ALL works of fiction and ALL authors to be fan-fictioned, not one set for the stuff you want to "borrow" and one set for the stuff you don't want anyone else "stealing."

I agree to giving credit where it is due, like when you cite in a research paper or "borrow" for fan-fiction, hence why fan-fiction in and of itself is not plagiarism.

But I don't see this principle of "consent" being universally enforced in fan-fiction. I see it being selectively enforced, which is why I can't respect it as a rule without sufficient justification.

Certainly, I see using a fellow fandom-member's work (with disclaimer) even though it upsets them as a mean act, so I won't myself do it. I'll disapprove of the meanness too, but I can't call it a crime.

Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 09:35:02 AM
IP: 141.133.151.90

Kaioto> Because it's okay to steal from your betters but not from your equals. :-) There's a whole essay around that somewhere in GFW...
Questioner
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 09:01:46 AM
IP: cache2.grnet.gr

Hey hey! How are we today?! * ^_~ *

David G> Ah, yes, ouch is the adjetive I was thinking of :P, I have to get another one out during summer, but all 4 of them!!! You are a brave brave man! :P

Aaron> SAAS?!!?!? What is that?! Is that some cable chanel I dont get or something?! Oh, and I wouldnt know about Hyama looking like Yuu, I havent watched Marmalade Boy yet. Do you recomend it?

Exin> I'm really sorry dear, but you can go ahead and ask anyone who has my email addy, I havent been writing anyone, so dont feel special! :P

I gotta go! Tho I have no classes today, I still have tons to do!! This is suposed to be spring brake!!! And I still have a class tomorrow and way to much work to call it a brake!!!...they should call it "spring catch up with your work brake"....OK, I'll shut up now :P BYE!!!! *HUGZ for all*
Caliope
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 08:42:59 AM
IP: 136.145.83.210

*Warpmind enters.*

Shadowrider: Heh, truth to be told, I made that comment about almost no feedback as a half-joke. ;)

Gside: Close, but no cigar... I have no intention of reviving Brooklyn like that... *Chuckles maniacally.* Oh, and by the way, Matt won't be the only knight reincarnated, you know... I just gotta catch up on my Arthurian lore a bit first; I kinda lost track of some of the knights... :(

DPH: Why are you alive now? Blind, stupid luck? Who cares why you're still alive, what matters is that you *are*! And, unless you've got some sort of learning impediment, you know better than to drive when sleepy again, right? :)

Well, that should be just about it, then... Adios, bunch!
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 08:28:51 AM
IP: maaloeytnb-gw.online.no

If you like a movie / TV show, and it inspires you to invent new stories and characters in your head, and you decide to write them down and share them with other fans for no compensation other than seeing others enjoy them and the occassional praise of "wow, great story!" -- that's writing fanfic.

If you like a movie / TV show, and it inspires you to go out and find other peoples fanfic, copy it, alter it to your own taste without asking them first, and share it with other fans, letting them assume it's your own original work -- that is plaigerism and fic piracy.

The difference is one degree of separation as opposed to two. Writing original fanfic versus rehashing someone else's original fanfic because you can't come up with original ideas of your own. It seems pretty straightforward (to me, at least) where the boundary lies.
Patrick Toman
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 06:57:03 AM
IP: abdb20cd.ipt.aol.com

Daniel--regarding carwreck-- my god, I'm glad you are okay!
jenna
Tuesday, April 18, 2000 12:38:21 AM
IP: 1cust120.tnt7.houston.tx.da.uu.net

Robby-I know I already said this a while back, but I'll say it again: you're just down right EVIL.
Poll-I'll go with C because the only reason I can think of why it may have seemed that Season 1 went so fast is because the ten years were so condensed. The first season only had what? sixteen episodes (give/take). Oh well, you know what my opinion's worth.

Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
hell, tx
Monday, April 17, 2000 09:43:09 PM
IP: spider-th011.proxy.aol.com

Well, here I come again, and posting in frilly pink, no less!

Winterwolf's poll: Well, my choice would have to be F--Who are Brooklyn and Sata? Just kidding! I think, actually, that they pace was just right. So, my answer's C.

Mecord: Right. There is no spoon. I wonder if that works on my research project? ~ There is no paper due on Friday ~ :)

Shadowrider: Easter break in Italy! Wow, that's something that gets me green with envy. What does everyone do for the holiday where you live? I've gone to Holy Week in Spain; is it anything like that?
Oh, and I wasn't trying to hurry you on your fic :) I understand how you must have enough things to worry about right now (I'm going through the same motions). Also, don't feel obligated to read my fics. They're awfully long ;] And tell you friend welcome to the fandom!

Jaden: Although I am new, I also give you my warmest wishes for the path ahead!

Wilek: <Sounds handy for when you find someone's lack of faith disturbing> =} Either that, or you think they just deserve a mental flick agains their ears.

Christine: Ah, I have some feedback for you on "Bittersweet." It was wonderfully done (of course), and I did not get a documentary feel at all! I especially liked the way that you used the old "show, not tell" method of writing; instead of everyone _telling_ Old Mother what happened, she is used as a vessel to draw out the explanations of all the characters' pasts. (Sorry if that sounds like a super run-on sentence!). Anyways, waiting eagerly for the next one; what's going to happen to poor Amber? :D

All right, now everyone join me in saying, "There is no term paper due Friday. There is no term paper due Friday"--and, hopefully, I'll be just fine :)

Adios!




Niamhgold - [niamhgold@hotmail.com]
Monday, April 17, 2000 09:05:43 PM
IP: ncia91n.ncia.net

Patrick Toman> I'm not quite sure what to think of this matter either. Again, my only point is that the consideration is interesting.

You did say, however:

<<It's not enough merely to disclaim it. You must ask AND receive permission FIRST, before you even write it. It's flat out wrong to just steal someone else's ficverse or characters, or copy passages from someone else's story word for word at your own leisure, and claim you can get off free and clear just by saying who you stole it from.>>

Which begs the question then, what makes writing fan-fiction about Star Trek, or even Gargoyles alright if you didn't ask Greg Weissman's or Gene Roddenbury's permission? Sure, both men were/are very open about fan-fiction writing, but not every creator of shows like Highlander and Buffy are so kind.

By your own definition, you <<steal someone else's ficverse or characters>> whenever you write fan-fiction.

So I still think it is quite an interesting question posed. What makes the distinction between Fan-fiction and Fic-Piracy? Publication? Paid publication? Syndication? Is it as long as it happens to everyone else, but not when it happens to me? Is it first-hand second-hand status? Or is all fan-fiction really just a rip-off?

I'm interested to see where the line is drawn in the minds of various people in the fandom.
Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Monday, April 17, 2000 08:58:42 PM
IP: 141.133.151.90

1) Anybody reading this, do not borrow the character DPH without my permission. Winterwolf, read my email to you. Due to statement #2, it may be a while before I archieve my RP into one cohesive file.

2) I am lucky to be alive. I had an accident on my way home
from work today. The cause was . . . sleepiness. No one else was injured. I busted my left lens of my glasses. I am told my car flipped over. All I know is the car was the right side up when I stopped it. This brings me to a question that I have to answer: Why am I alive now?.

**SHAMELESS PLUG**
If you visit the link, you will find more stories I have started to write.
**END SHAMELESS PLUG**

DC sabotaged my web browser again. So help me, DC, I will expose your world.

**DC CONSPIRACY SAGA continues despite efforts by DC**
DPH awoke from the vision. "What defenses can NCA have while inside the forcefield. It must have a warning about the future," thought DPH.

DPH decided to adjust the forcefield around NCA to prevent NCA from acquiring any additional energy. He finished adjusting the forcefield to prevent light or magical energy from penetrating it. "That should weaken NCA," thought DPH. DPH decided to leave the forcefield alone for 24 hours. He checked on his energy ball. It was steadily shrinking in size. He repowered it up by gathering solar energy going to all the planets and moons in the Solar System but Earth and its moon.

DPH decided to visit Mr. Connect. DPH knocked on Mr. C's door and he let DPH in. DPH noticed Mr. C was in 75% health and summoned lightning to bring Mr. C up to 100% physical health.

"How are you going?" asked DPH.

"I have some news for you," said Mr. Connect.
**END DC CONSPIRACY SAGA for now**
I could keep the SAGA going for now but I have to keep my comments and RP roughly equal.
Daniel Paul Hightower - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
Monday, April 17, 2000 08:57:58 PM
IP: max1-47.cwy.cei.net

*Robby enters and goes into Xellos mode*

Gside- Now THAT... Is a secret.

Winterwolf- *Simply nods*

Stealing fanfics- *Just watches the conversation from a far off tree and then leaves, agreeing with basically everything going on*
Robby
Monday, April 17, 2000 08:37:56 PM
IP: spider-we012.proxy.aol.com

Fire Storm > yes, the Silver Flame stories-on-commission is still open for business. But I feel I must stress that I can't usually accept anything involving official characters ... and also that I reserve the right to turn down proposals that I just don't think I could do. ; )

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Monday, April 17, 2000 08:28:13 PM
IP: 14-095.009.popsite.net

Toku > Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Are you saying that all fanfic is up for grabs as long as whoever borrows from it disclaims it? I strongly disagree. It's not enough merely to disclaim it. You must ask AND receive permission FIRST, before you even write it. It's flat out wrong to just steal someone else's ficverse or characters, or copy passages from someone else's story word for word at your own leisure, and claim you can get off free and clear just by saying who you stole it from.

If you think about it, everyone should've learned most of this stuff in kindergarten. If you want to play with someone else's toys, you must ask permission. If they say no, respect that and find something else to play with. If they say "yes," take care of what you borrow as if it were your own, return it in the condition you found it.
Patrick Toman
Monday, April 17, 2000 07:33:15 PM
IP: abd4557c.ipt.aol.com

(Winterwolf)'s Poll: A, F, G.

and what i would like are some pics of the 'bit' characters...like the Yeti/Mati from that TD ep.

just a thought.


Rodlox
Monday, April 17, 2000 07:05:59 PM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

**Mec walks in with his nose in a textbook**

Poll>> A, G, and H (I kinda expected it to happen in season one because we already knew about her. It was the wedding I thought came to soon episode wise).

Telekenesis>> "There is no spoon." :)
Mecord
Monday, April 17, 2000 07:04:37 PM
IP: usr21.mtwest.net

DOH! I meant to edit the updated poll section. Sorry for the cookie cut. I'll fix it for next time.
Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Monday, April 17, 2000 05:54:03 PM
IP: 206.15.122.13

Poll Update and Robby> <ten years a season> Interesting. I thought each season of TD spanned a few years, but not ten. I believe however that the question is vague enough for this not to matter. Time can be interpreted as number of episodes (time we see Brooklyn in action), actual time (almost 20 years), or time in RL. When I originally posed the question I, like Fire Storm, was thinking in terms of number of episodes. I don't want to impose anything on anyone so you can answer the question you want or make me do triple work by answering each individually. ^_^

Robby> So that's a vote for H "I know whats coming up and as a result think the pacing was juuuuust right." and F. Right?

Jaden> Bon voyage and Good Luck!

Fire Storm> <pictures of Thersites and Claw> I really thought there was a picture of Claw. I guess reading through the stories I can easily visualize the original characters. For Thersites I think the pic in Kindred Spirits is best, though I really like the one in the barrel in Serendipity. I doing a little graphic touch up so I'm sending you what I did with Thersites from Kindered Spirits via email. If you think it looks good you could use that. Christi Smith Hayden did all the work I just did some minor editing to extract Thersites from the graphic.

Gside> Actually I could use a little peril in my life too. :(

Poll Running Results:

Question: Firestorm has gotten me curious. Let me take a poll. How do you feel about the amount of time it took for Brooklyn to meet Sata? (pick all that apply)

A. It was too quick.
B. It was too long.
C. It was just fine.
D. Don't care.
E. Shouldn't this be Firestorm's poll?
F. Who are Brooklyn and Sata?
G. I think Winterwolf is just trying to get some attention.
H. (Make up your own response.)

I'll tally and post the results of the poll next Monday (day after Easter)

Current results:
A. 3
B. 0
C. 2
D. 0
E. 2
F. 1
G. 2
H. 1

H responses> I know whats coming up and as a result think the pacing was juuuuust right.

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.

Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Monday, April 17, 2000 05:51:38 PM
IP: 206.15.122.13

Tim P.> If I weren't in the sub-culture, but instead in the mainstream, I'd be struck by how insightful the article was.

Though it does do me well to see it out there, I guess I'm a little spoiled from being emersed in a fandom and surrounded by fan-fcition. Not a huge-lot overly enlightening for a member of this fandom in there, and the whole emotional-analysis thing kind of gave me that "I'm-gon'na-puke" feeling I get when exposed to one-too-many human-interest stories.

I really liked the exerpts from Jenkins though. Seems like a very well-thought thesis.

The one thing that always strikes me about the simpathetic view of fan-fiction, however, is the consideration paid to the original authors.

We do very well in this fandom of sharing and prospering with Greg Weisman. Though he doesn't read the fan-fiction for various reasons (mostly legal) he never says a bad word to the writers and it a good friend to many of them.

I think Greg has the right attitude for a story-teller who reached a world-wide audience. He _has_ created a sub-cultural sort of mythology. Lexy-chan has done a huge English paper on that topic all this semester. _We_ have also added to it in our own participation in the Fandom. I think when you go out and spread your fictional story so far, you have to accept that it will be re-told and re-tooled by those whom you've made such a lasting impression upon.

Beyond the basic claims of for-profit copyrights and the obligation for all fan-fiction written to give you credit for your original work, you really have to accept that people are going to tell stories from their own views and ideas. The original author decides what is cannon or not, but that is about it.

Now this corralates directly back to the fic-piracy Christine Morgan encountered.

Christine's plight is an example of why fan-fiction is NOT identical to the age-old traditions of myth-telling.

We live in a modern era where are stories change everyday and circulate broadly. This means that the story we begin to fan-fic usually still has a living author whom we can easily discover and identify. We have to pay far more attention to giving credit whenever we can identify where the ideas we have built upon have come from.

This applies just as concretely when you fan-fic Greg as when someone fan-fic's Christine. You HAVE to disclaim and give credit for anyone else's stories you alter to create your fic.

I think the other side of the coin holds true, however. If you are going to publish (even web-publish) for profit or no, original or fan-fic, you have to accept that you have NO claim on what happens to your original characters beyond normal profit copyrights etc.

You can't stop people from "Stealing" or "Ruining" you fan-fic characters and stories if they disclaim credit. It seems like some people *fic-pirates**cough**fic-pirates*

ahem ...

Need to learn or relearn the fundamental rule of fan-fic: the Disclaimer.

I also think, however, that it is interesting to consider that even fan-fic writers can be subject to fan-fic.

Something to ponder instead of working/doing homework.
Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Monday, April 17, 2000 05:15:35 PM
IP: 141.133.151.90

Kitainia> <<Sorry I missed you on the first pass>>: Not a problem in the least.

Taleweaver> <<I don't think the Jedi think the prophecy is a good thing>>: But from the council in I, I don't think they feared the prophesy. They only thought that Anakin had the wrong mindset to become a Jedi, and that the prophesied one would be on their side.

Mecord> <<In the beginning of ep. four, two light, two dark>>: Would Yoda count? Because conceivably we should already know that he is alive, it's just that things were out of order that makes everything odd.

Winterwolf> <<Gside the Chaste>>: Sadly, yes. I need some peril in my life.
Poll: I'd say both just fine and too quick. Yeah, there was a lot that was left out, but that means we are going to get to the end faster. After this happens, would an "Untold Tales" type of season(s) be as good?

Robby> <<As for how long season three lasts? Well, it is NOT ten years>>: I know you can't say anything, but from whose perspective?

Scooby movie randomness: How many people would laugh if Shaggy says anything about eclairs? (e.g. opening a fridge and saying "Ooh... eclairs," or just offering the gang some from the back of the van) And would that mean tR Mrs. Morgan has a fan in the industry?

Fire Storm> <<As long as we are talking about light and not pigment>>: Taking cues from the medium, it would be light. Whether it is a CRT or LCD screen, it still uses the additive colors to construct its display.
<<I couldn't remember the ACTUAL saying>>: I didn't remember that, just looked it up in Bartlett's (www.bartelby.com) for the source (though I did remember the "hath" myself).
<<NEVER EVER say that...>>: Let me ament that by saying I have not developed the skill set necessary for the reproduction of real or imagined items in a two dimensional medium in a believiable or realistic manner.
<<I have always liked classical (or even pure instrumental) music>>: Nice to know someone likes it. A good fraction of my CDs are classical (the Brandenburgs, Carmina Burana, Handel, Copland (close enough), and a couple best of the old stuff.)
<<it all started with Thexder>>: Sorry, what?

Warpmind> << I'd expect at least one of you to at least give me a mean glance for it, considering what happened to Brooklyn>>: Seal five, Rev. 6.9-11
**SPOILER**I must also say that I like your choice of Matt as Galahad, solely due to hair color: Galahad was the original Scarlet Knight.**/SPOILER**

Stromy> May the wind always be at your back.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Monday, April 17, 2000 05:06:10 PM
IP: gside.dorm.rutgers.edu

I found and article about fan fiction on MSN. I thought that you would be interested. Click on my name or try http://slate.msn.com/Features/fanfic/fanfic.asp
Tim P.
Monday, April 17, 2000 04:16:39 PM
IP: bn821-01.wsc.edu

Last hurrah, folks.

Here's the current outline for what I'm doing with my time.

IN less than two weeks, I head out East for a month with Dylan/Whitbourne. When I come home, it's off to Base Trenton for what's looking like a summer at CRGS (Central Region Gliding School), my old home (can't believe it's been six years since I left as a new pilot, now I'm going back as groundschool instructor), and, after that, off to Royal Military College for a degree in Military and Strategic Studies.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to afford a computer of my own with the money I earn this summer, while still keeping gas in the Metal Bird and moving to Kingston, but I can pretty much guarantee almost no internet access until mid-September at the earliest, and that's if things work out as I want them to.

Thanks for the wellwishes from everyone.

Kitania: So--you ended up with the bikers, and I ended up in the Air Force, and somehow we're both still here. :) Here's to survivors.

Take care, everyone.

*highspeed flyby*
Stormy
Monday, April 17, 2000 03:57:21 PM
IP: dbwctrn017.lib.uwo.ca

RP WARNING!!
**Bob Jones University
As Brigitte and Gene Taylor are being sent to their doom, the door is blown open ruining the effect of the ritual and Oliver Cromwell disappears into the flames. Now, the four Orange Fiends approach their disruptor. It is Fred Thomspon.

"Scarificing them just ain't right, and you know what happens when I'm in a bit part, right?"

A black van crashes through the chapel wall and out steps Mr. T.
"I pity the fools that scarifice Attila's agents. Now, its time to kick some heathen ass."

Murdock steps out of the van and starts causing trouble in the chapel. As he distracts the four villains and the security forces coming in, Face sneaks into the room with all the hostages. Another figure in a suit with a bare cross on his neck appears with his gun ready.

"Our forces have arrived. Give up, A-Team papists!"
The guy in the suit turns around the cross to reveal a crucifix. He then sheds the suit to reveal a cassock. Bob Jones's mouth gapes as he sees his chief security enforcer was an undercover priest.

The Catholic schoolgirl scouts now stand together angrily at the four Orange bosses. "It's time to cleanse this beacon of hate with the love of God and his Holy Mother."

"Mary was just like any other woman, no more no less," shouts Bob Jones, only to be incinerated by Ave Maria. Brigitte points her rosary at Ian Paisley, but he and the Orange Duke dissapear in a flash of orange light. Bernadette fires her rosary at Jack Chick and he is engulfed in blue light and explodes. "That will teach him to write anti-Catholic illustrations."

The priest, who actually turns out to be Colonel Smith in a disguise places a statue of Mary in a corner of the chapel. "That should add some beauty to this drab boring place."

Oliver Cromwell seethes in anger as his base is cleansed of his influence, and he can't reveal himself to the scouts yet.

Now, Bob Jones University will undergo soem renovations and a better policy of tolerance thanks to the Catholic schoolgirl scouts and it will be renamed Fulton Sheen University.**
END RP!!!

Well, that adds one scenario and the scouts are victorious again!!! :)

Shadowrider> LOL!!! Now, you know how to respond to my humor :)

Aaron> Maybe my lack of being a bastard appeals to the ladies :)

Daniel Johnson> Oops. Didn't mena to scare you. She should be alive and well and married.

Crzy> I love that pic. Elisagoyle should post here and take a bow.

Jessie> You too! Your pic was great too, but I'm biased :)

Skippy> Penfold was reaosnable intelligent, unlike Pinky. he seems more like Morocco mole as far as sidekicks go.

Dangermouse> That was a great show, with all of its villains, including not just Greenback, Stilleto, and Nero, but also El Loco and Duckula and that other crow flunkie who always reads the comics. Colonel K was an amusing, but senile old rodent and Squackencluck was amusing, too.

Doug> Attila will come, but he's still pissed about the dog and now there is another one. We just got cages for them at night. The dogs like to destroy furniture, so they now sleep in a cage :)

Gside> Its not old but my comp has no sound capabilities, becuase it would distract others in the lab.

SOROW> <<You *know* that I'm just kidding ;)>> So am I ::hugs:: :) BTW, how is the scanner going?

Starsinger> Still, that scenario stinks for you. ::hugs:: I hope you're better soon.

Christine> If we find out who this is, we can make him a pariah of the fandom.

James Birdsong> WB

Mandolin> Don't forget to give GB his birthday greeting for August 4th :)

Lexy> Aren't you and Kaioto meeting in August?

Night Walker> WB. Where will you be living next?

Bronx> I haven't seen you in a long time ::hugs and kisses::

Christine> I didn't knwo Tara was still active. i haven't seen her on-line in ages. Hoepfully, she can let you knwo how Merlin Missy is.

Sevarius Jr.> Chrisitine Morgan writing a screenplay for a movie with Jennifer Love Hewitt. That is worth seeing :)

Firestorm> I think she e-mailed me her snail mail address. I'll look for it.

Wolves> They keep the stupid deer population in check which is good for cars and drivers :)

Kitainia> Truly that is quite a life. I am impressed you could make it on your own. I doubt I could. I am of course gald you came back and things got better. Are those friends of yours still in contact with you? BTW, have you ever seen Easy Rider? I think you might like it.

The Financial Report is not that difficult, as long as you pay attention to his notes. He's a tough professor until you can understand his methods.

Winterwolf> I pick E :p

Bubye!!!
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
New Orleans, Louisiana
Monday, April 17, 2000 03:01:35 PM
IP: 141.164.133.103

Hi to everyone!

Kitainia:> You have not to thank me for what I wrote: I meant every single word, and if I had to re-write my answer now, I'd write the same things. I don't know you since a long time, but yes, I feel strong confidence in you, and, I repeat, I'm proud that you consider me your friend, although I did nothing to deserve your friendship by now. I am sure that you'll handle everything will ever happen to you, that no matter how things will seem bad, you'll come through and you'll be stronger after. As Niamhgold said, everyone of us makes mistakes, and it is not a fault (I also did some mistakes in my life, and a scar will remember me of one of them forever); making a mistake and not learning from that IS a fault, but a fault you didn't commit. I'm only sorry that the consequences of your mistake will be with you for your whole life (Hm, it was brutal. Sorry, I can't say another way), but I'm not worried: I know you'll face it and you'll win; just remember that I (and, I think, a lot of people in this CR) will always be ready to help you if you'll ever need it, in any time, at any cost. You have all the rights in the world to be proud of yourself, my friend: what you've been through give them to you. I confirm to you my admiration, esteem and friendship: you deserve it and more. My wishes for your future, may you never loose your strenght and courage.

For weapons...well, I said I like fighting with knives, not that I master that style (although I'd like to do). Actually, hands and feets (and knees and elbows) are the weapons I am more used to fight with. But, I like a lot knives fighting, it is a very difficult but effective style, and I practice it anytime I have the chance, so, if I have to choose a weapon...
I'm sure Austin is a good place to live in, although I practically know nothing about Texas (everything I know is what I've seen in "Walker Texas Ranger", mind it! ;)). Anyway, just to say something noone has ever said: "No place is better than home!"
See you, Kit!

Niamhgold:> I like sharks a lot too. I think they are...perfect for their task. Millions of years of evolution have made them the perfect sea predators. Telekinesys? Quite effective, I think (those poor spoons! What did they do to you to deserve that? ;) ). So you are a writer? I didn't know it! I'm curious to read your stories, although I have a lot to study, so I don't know when I'll be able to read them. I have almost abandoned the idea of reading ALL of the fanfic in the archive - I download one story, I read it as I have time and as I return to the archive, there are three new ones. Anyway, I'm sure your stories are great!
You ask about my fanfic? Well...as I said, I have a lot to do, so I manage to write only in weekends. Anyway...the goal is approaching. I wasted a lot of time, because I did a lot of changes to the original idea (and, if the thing will work, I have a lot of ideas for future developments), I changed the main character's name too (not only the name...). Now, the Italian version is nearly complete (there are just a couple of scenes to do) and I think I'll take advantage of the coming Easter Break to complete it and make corrections. Then I will have to translate it...anyway, a couple of friends are proof-reading the parts I already completed and they seem to like it (one of them didn't know anything about Gargoyles, but now he has become very interested and he asked me to borrow him my Garg-tapes...there's one more Garg-fan in the world...).

Archwolf:> Thank you so much, my friend. :)
I was also commoted by Flint's death. Oh, and I agree with your point about people believing that wolves are evil without knowing anything about them.

Winterwolf:> Poll: put me as C. I think the timing for the meeting was quite good. Maybe I would have liked a little more stories between the one in which Brook and Sata meet and the one in which they fall in love with each other...just two stories were too few, I would have liked to see their feelings for each other grow and develop slowly.

Jaden:> I don't know if you'll ever read this, but...Goodbye, and good luck for your life!

Warpmind:> Sorry! I downloaded your fanfic, but I really had no time to read it by now. I'll try to do in my Easter Break, and be sure I'll send feedback.

Todd:> Right! Interesting point, too. Need a little reflection about it.

Night Walker:> Hi! Nice to meet you!

Bronx:> Hallo! I'm glad to know you!

OK, I have nothing more to say. Maybe I'll peek in later.
See you all!
Shadowrider - [shadowrider@katamail.com]
Milano, Italy
Monday, April 17, 2000 02:52:23 PM
IP: h213-18-106.mi2.albacom.net

Topic:
Dinosaurs:
i don't know if they mentioned it last night, but there's a theory in paleontology regarding the 'weapons' of the long-horned ceratopsians {triceratop's kin}....that the horns were built more for use like a cat's whiskers - sensing/detection.

hmmm....Ophelia may have an advantage in Blind Man's Bluff, eh? ::)

and Oviraptor - it had only 2 teeth in the entire mouth, and those were set way back, on the roof of hte mouth...


Rodlox
Monday, April 17, 2000 02:41:11 PM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

*bows*

Bona fortuna, Jaden, bona fortuna.

Keep in touch whenever you can, ok?
Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Monday, April 17, 2000 01:36:08 PM
IP: 141.133.151.90

One other thought on wolves. Has anybody noticed that some of the comments on them here (particularly the way in which humans have been conditioned to hate and fear wolves because of the way that they get portrayed in fairy-tales) do draw a striking parallel with gargoyles (who similarly are not recognized by most humans as noble and intelligent beings but are believed to be demonic monsters and therefore hunted down and persecuted)?
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, April 17, 2000 07:20:26 AM
IP: 216.87.46.187.dialup-stl.primary.net

*Warpmind enters, green-faced.*
Guhh... why do people have to fertilize their gardens with *natural* fertilizer? And right beside the road, no less? The stuff STINKS!

Rodlox: *Frenzy* Nyaaaargh! Horrible memories... rushing back... Language History classes from Malebolgia... *Regains composure somewhat* My friend... NEVER EVER do that again...

*Clasps forearm with Daniel Johnson.* Great post, kindred spirit... I was never a lurker, but your description of your life was eerily familiar...

Wilek: One thing I just got to think about, concerning the Nereus Project... when our Matrix is online, there'll be security codes, right? After all, we don't want to become accidentally killed when logged in, right? (And we'll be able to turn off anyone's security codes as we please, right?) Just a thought...

Jaden: May the winds of fortune ever be with ya, friend!

Fire Storm: Actually, I've never seen chimps being slaughtered... uh, but I think I see your point...

Well, that's about it for now. *Looks around* And there's been no comment on my latest fic here, either? Tsk, tsk... I'd expect at least one of you to at least give me a mean glance for it, considering what happened to Brooklyn... >:)

Later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [de_InzanE@xoommail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Monday, April 17, 2000 07:15:13 AM
IP: maaloeytnb-gw.online.no

They will be showing the Making of Walking With Dinosaurs tonight on the Discovery channel. I'm looking forward to it.
Starsinger
Monday, April 17, 2000 06:00:36 AM
IP: proxy-393.public.rwc.webtv.net

Warpmind: <Hmh, well, I guess she'd be considered related... at least considering the xenomorph reproductive system>
Well, I am almost certian that we do NOT come from the same ancestors.
And if I have done everything right, my species will (un)fortunately *NEVER* walk this Earth. That's the pain of knowing how your species works. Sometimes you DO have to kill every member of your species so that many others may flourish. :(
It's like you seeing chimps being slaughtered. While you may not be direct descendents of them or directly related to them, isn't there just something inside you that can relate to them when you hear about them being killed?

Kyryn: <From the TGS point of view>
Sweeet. I DEFINATELY planned on saying that it was based on Equality and it borrowed parts from the story.

Christine: <Scooby Doo screenplay > ::shudder:: no thanks!>
Aww... come on! I quite liked your Scooby Doo story! Even though I don't really like the show, I really liked that story.
Hmm... (Nasty Thought)... do you still do commision writings? <Evil Grin>

Gside: <Or, if you want to be technical, "Color = All">
True. As long as we are talking about light and not pigment. (Light = addative, Pigment = Subtractive, right?)
<Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,/Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned>
Yeah... I like yours better! :) I couldn't remember the ACTUAL saying, so I just made that up.
<shouldn't talk since I can't draw>
NEVER EVER say that in Aimee's CR or in the presence of Siren <SP, I know> or Kanthara!
<From my current attitude, I think my next few mp3s will not be as well liked>
I liked it. Kinda cheerfull, nice instrumentals, very well played.
But I guess I have always liked classical (or even pure instrumental) music.
And it all started with Thexder :)

Rodlox: <{guess what i just saw}>
Dr. Strangelove?

Starsinger: <Was I the only one who saw Walking With Dinasaurs on the Discovery channel tonight?>
Saw it, taped it, loved it!
I just wish they made it longer.
Was that TOTALLY CGI, or was it partially animatronic?

Wilek: <It'd probably be a decent magazine if the porn were removed.>
Playboy is "Gentlemens Entertainment"
Porn is just porn.
But it would be quite a bit better without the nudity.
<both Phantom Menace games>
ICK! DEFINATELY! VERY poor cheat codes. That was a problem for me until I "hacked" the game.
Tons of money and all of the pods are upgraded.

Winterwolf: <How adding pictures of Thersites and Claw?>
Thersites I know was in quite a few stories. Got any preferance on a particular picture?
And Claw... was he in a TGS picture?
Poll: I have to say... A, E and G :)

Robby: <The first season covered about ten years of Brooklyn's life>
I know. Brooklyn met Sata about 2/3s through Season 1. Thats not the problem.
Brooklyn met Sata after approx. 10 years of dancing (give or take a year). That fits with the info we know about Gargoyles mating habits.
I think that SERIES wise, not time wise, Brooklyn met Sata too soon.
It would be the equivelent of Goliath and Elisa getting married in Season 1 TGS "Consequences" or having the kiss in "Bushido"
Also, by covering 10 years every season, Timedancer has about 1 season left, maybe one and a half.
And with the twins spending most of their time in the future (Oh, come on now. If you look at how they are and how much they think about the future, they must have been raised there), maybe even less.
Unless Brook and Sata left their children to be raised by others in the future, but I just can't see them doing that. Although, it would account for the tight bond the twins have between them. Hmm... they may be even tighter than Jackal and Hyena, and you know what I did to them! <Evil Grin>
Fire Storm - [night-flame@usa.net]
Dearborn, MI
Monday, April 17, 2000 04:12:33 AM
IP: t3-58.visitus.net

Jaden: NNNOOOOOO!!!!! DON'T LEAVE US!!!!!!

Rodlox - [Babnol@hotmail .com]
Monday, April 17, 2000 02:33:10 AM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

Well everyone, I'll be leaving in a few hours and I just wanted to stop by and say bye. I hope to see you around.

Good-bye
Jaden - [jaden12@hotmail.com]
Los Alamos, CA
Monday, April 17, 2000 02:18:33 AM
IP: cache1.avtel.net

Brooklyn meeting Sata- Something I should point out that you all may not be aware of in Timedancer... The first season covered about ten years of Brooklyn's life, and the second season covered about another ten years. Also keep in mind 3 of the years in the first season were spent with Meyrt in the backstory we didn't see until "Sun and the Serpent". Keep all that in mind when voting on the latest poll. (As for how long season three lasts? Well, it is NOT ten years, I'll tell you that much. If its more or less, well... You'll find out.)

So, for Winterwolf's poll, I'd have to say "H"... In this case... "I know whats coming up and as a result think the pacing was juuuuust right." That failing I'll vote "F", just for kicks.

Lexy- It's "tucan" for the reference, but you spelled "Halloween" right. But that's a pretty bizarre idea... Personally I can't wait until Vinnie Gregarino goes as Vinnie Bobarino from Welcome Back Kotter, Goliath goes as Mr. Kotter himself, Hudson goes as the principal, Lexington goes as Arnold and has to keep going "oooh oooh!", Brooklyn goes as Washington (Hi there.) and Broadway goes as Horshack. (Okay, so Horshack doesn't fit too well, but there aren't any other roles.)

Alternate... The three stooges. Brooklyn would be Moe, Lex would be Larry, and Broadway would be Curly. (For which he'd need a wig...)

Todd- And these people think *I'M* mean! Your teasing them about Pendragon and thats still quite a ways off! (Or is it? Insert evil knowing grin here.)

Robby
Monday, April 17, 2000 01:42:15 AM
IP: spider-wl052.proxy.aol.com

James Birdsong> Hi there. Post anytime you want to. Everyone is welcome here. At least that has been my experience.

DPH> <job rant> I totally understand. I used to be in that position. What are you looking for and where do you want to work? <DC NCA and the others> Now this is getting serious. I liked your RP. Hope you don't mind if I contribute.

Exin> What do you want to talk about? Or what would you like me to write about?

Gside the Chaste> The peril of Castle Anthrax!?!? With all those virgins. No, I can't let you face that. It's too perilous! What? You want to face the peril? I can't let you, the peril is too great! Don't start accusing me of being gay now! ^_^ < I wonder what a careful Jedi could do with the cautious balancing of both sides..> I don't believe that would be possible. Can you learn to be a Jedi on your own? Since you need a Jedi to teach you the arts. They are extremely likely to force (pun intended) their side on you. Now if you find the other side more to your liking you will probably make the transition. The amount of discipline to use both sides equally would be extremely difficult. If it was possible then the ability of that Jedi would be almost unimaginable.

Wilek> <Miniaturized Mr. Thingy> ^_^ Well you gave it to me, sort of. Happy to test out the new model!

Delphi> Your joke with the Taco Bell dog is funny. I like it. I think I'll use it Monday.

Night Walker> <Goodnight, my rookery brothers and sisters> Good to see you brother. Thanks for the welcome. It feels like I've been here while, but in a few days I'll be starting my third week here.

Bronx> Hi Bronx.

Firestorm> <TGS and Sata> At the risk of becoming unpopular, yeah like that ever stopped me, I would have liked Brooklyn to have met Sata a little later. It would have been interesting to see how he would have dealt with his impending nervous breakdown without her to help him during his dances. On the other hand I do like Sata and I miss her right now. <pics> How adding pictures of Thersites and Claw? I like both of em.

Question: Firestorm has gotten me curious. Let me take a poll. How do you feel about the amount of time it took for Brooklyn to meet Sata? (pick all that apply)
A. It was too quick.
B. It was too long.
C. It was just fine.
D. Don't care.
E. Shouldn't this be Firestorm's poll?
F. Who are Brooklyn and Sata?
G. I think Winterwolf is just trying to get some attention.
H. (Make up your own response.)

I'll tally and post the results of the poll next Monday (day after Easter)

Current results:
A. 2 Firestorm, Winterwolf
B. 0
C. 0
D. 0
E. 0
F. 0
G. 1 Winterwolf
H. 0

Starsinger> I feel pain just thinking about it. I'm glad it is healing up and that you aren't in any pain. Hope you have a super speedy recovery!

Kyryn> Hola

Daniel Johnson> I haven't seen much of what has happened here before I started posting, but I'm happy to be a part of it now. I wanted to let you know that your post touched me. I'm touched in the head. ^_^ I couldn't resist. I hope you find what you seek. We both made our first post on the same day. I'm happy to call you a friend.

******SHORT RP******
DPH was thinking of how to deal with NCA when he heard a voice. "I can help you." DPH turned and saw Winterwolf standing there. He asked, "Oh, how can you help?" Winterwolf answered, "You are going to need to get past NCA's defenses. If he sees you coming he'll be ready for you. If I distract him while you catch him from behind you have a better chance of success. If you use your magic to distract NCA, he'll be able to defend himself when your true attack comes. Once NCA understands how you use your magic he can defend himself from your spells." "I still need to figure out how to eliminate NCA permanently" DPH said. "Well it will have to be a reoccurring death otherwise he will come back and seek vengeance on us both." Winterwolf replied. "This is going to be a very difficult battle. He may also summon DC and the others to aid him if we do not act swiftly."
******END RP******

Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Monday, April 17, 2000 12:42:23 AM
IP: dialup-209.246.80.1.newyork2.level3.net

Wow. I not only made top ten, but I was First! My life dream has now been realized. Okay, maybe not. :) With all the homework coming up this may be my last real chance at a good post for a while. So here’s some responses.

Kit>> That is one incredible story. I am awed by your strength. Speaking of Dragonlance, your story reminded me of my darkest years when I felt like Raistlin. You were bold enough to do what I only dreamt of. In fact, it was Dragonlance that enabled me to cope with my problems (I envy you for your friends, I had none). I can honestly say that I would not be the same if it were not for those books. I too think it is sad that the later books were not as good. The second book was depressing when Sturm died, and I too cried when Flint died. The Heroes of the lance were such a dynamic group, there was always someone to relate to. I still judge heroes by the standards they set.

Lexy>> I read your posts.

Night Walker>> Welcome back. I’m one of the new guys you mentioned, pleased to make your acquaintance.

Bronx>> Welcome back to you as well.

Daniel Johnson>> Ditto, to your post. It describes me to a tee. I too feel the Gargoyles are real and care about what happens to them.

Exin>> Don’t give up yet. Read Daniel’s post? Your always welcome here. I’m sorry if I seemed to ignore you.

Wilek>> Balance in the force> In the beginning of episode one, all but two known jedi are light side. In the beginning of ep. four, two light, two dark. Very balanced. At the end of ep. six, all that’s left is a light sided “Jedi” (use the term loosely with Luke) that has temper tantrums.

*****OK, RP TIME*****
Bardic motioned to the ten year old red-headed girl, “This is Lloky and I am Bardic. We are dragons from a distant sun. You could not see me, but Mecord and I aided you in your battle on the Avatar.”
“So your Mecord’s friend?” Kit asked.
“Yes, we came to Earth to find a place to set up a base of operations when we noticed your battle.”
“I bet Mec and his gem could help your friend,” Lloky pointed to Doug.
Kit stared at the child, “He could?”
Bardic intervened, “It is possible, but Mec is… well, on his way to hell.”
*Meanwhile, back on the Avatar*
Mecord looked a little uncomfortable “I appreciate your offer… but I don’t think you’d like the company I’d bring. You see, my friends here, we’re part of a secret organization called the Guild of Thieves.”
“Your criminals?” asked Winterblade.
“No, uh… yes, kind of. We’re not about profit, on my home world we maintain control of the various governments. We’ve come to this world to open a discourse with another group like ours. I can’t tell you more, but you can imagine why I’d hesitate to involve you.”
Thicarrn groaned as he awoke, the poison having been neutralized. Now all eyes turned to Lithanne. The elven thief hung her head, “I tracked down the Dark Mage just before Archwolf did. Actually, it was my trail you tracked to find him. He captured me and used a magic necklace to control me. Here,” she tossed the remains of the necklace to Mec.
Mec brought them to the mastergem, and the necklace glowed, “She’s right. One mystery solved at least. On to the next. Lithanne and Thicarrn stays put, Senthet and I are taking this ugly handbasket straight to hell.”
*****End RP*****

Mecord the Elf
Monday, April 17, 2000 12:38:24 AM
IP: usr23.mtwest.net

Starsinger- I watched the Dinosaur special on the Discovery channel. SHoulda taped it, but oh well its the discovery channel, it'll be on another 8 times this month probably...

Disney's dinosaur movie, cleverly titled "Dinosaur" that promises to be a mix of The Land Before Time and Tarzan with CGI, hits theaters in mid May with some pretty impressive CGI. A preview of it is at the beginning of the Tarzan video.

Wilek- What could a cautious jedi do balancing both sides of the force? Hmm, thats kinda what Luke starts to do isn't it?
Robby
Monday, April 17, 2000 12:18:03 AM
IP: spider-tm021.proxy.aol.com

Walking with Dinosaurs > Tim and Becca have been taping it while I napped before work; but what I'm seeing now looks very good. Helpful, too, since my project for tonight is to come up with descriptions for the rest of Avalon Clan, and I take the stance that gargs are related to dinos and thus have various dinosaurian characteristics (Aiden's crest, Crimson's raptor-claw, etc., all thanks to Ophelia).

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Monday, April 17, 2000 12:10:59 AM
IP: 17-042.009.popsite.net

Kitania> Story> :O Wow. <speechless> <<Thanks to you both for those possible free DSL service links.>> You're welcome. ^_^ <<Probably has to do with all the bad stories about them (Little Red Riding Hood, Three Little Pigs, Boy Who Cried Wolf, Wolfman, etc), and how most programs I've seen featuring wolves portray them as brutal vicious animals, not as noble or intelligent creatures.>> I remember devoting way too much thought to this kind of thing when I was a kid. The resulting cerebral miscarriage involved the werewolf from Little Red Riding hood being some manner of war criminal, and some sort of werewolf military police guy coming after him. (I was a *weird* kid.)

Nightwalker> Welcome back! :D

SJ> <<Do you really think something like that would ever get produced and mass marketed?>> Yes. It happened with Custer's Revenge for the Atari 2600 and Strip Fighter for the TurboGrafx 16.

Fire Storm> <<Speaking of which... I think it is WRONG to have women in Playboy younger than 20. In a recent issue (I read it for the articles... seriously!>> I believe you; I was on a site about privacy on the Internet, and tripped over a very interesting article about such that had first appeared in Playboy. It'd probably be a decent magazine if the porn were removed. <<even worse, LAME cheat codes that only allow you to use them a few limited times LUCAS ARTS>> Some of them are pretty bad about that (Shadows Of The Empire, both Phantom Menace games), but at least Dark Forces and Jedi Knight had decent cheats. ^_^ Cheatwise, though, the company I'm really mad at is Rareware. They make *great* games, but they don't put in proper cheats and they do their best to make the Gameshark completely unusable. (Go to www.cmgsccc.com and have a look at the Donkey Kong 64 enable code to see the lengths they'll go to. The fact that the Gameshark even ever needs to be upgraded is largely their doing in the first place.) They say that this is so people will play the game 'as it's meant to be played' before they can resort to cheats. Excuse me? Once I've bought the game, I should be able to play it any way I bloody want (within the limitations of the technology, at any rate). <fume> Besides, their games are just this side of impossible to complete thanks to an insane difficulty level; we need cheats to even the odds. <<I fear I may be commiting plagurism with a TGS story. I wrote a story (as yet unpublished) that took a portion of the end of the TGS story "Equality" (Mainly the alley fight on) for the begining of my story.>> Probably you won't run into trouble if you tell which part you took in the disclaimer and give proper credit for it there, although you might want to ask the author just to be safe.

Niamhgold> <<I choose less...apparent...weapons. Meaning telekinesis.>> Sounds handy for when you find someone's lack of faith disturbing. :P

Gside> <<do the Jedi *really* want balance, or their own viewpoint triumphant?>> The latter, I'm sure. I don't know if they realize this, but the light side becoming ultimately triumphant is just as dangerous, if not more so, as the dark side doing the same. There was a time when both sides were equally valued--the light side for knowledge, healing, and the like, and the dark side for more combat-oriented applications. Then, a bunch of lunatics took it into their heads to use the dark side to conquer the galaxy. Darksiders have had a bad rap ever since, and indeed, that side is more easily abused. Both sides seem to believe that theirs is the only true way of using and understanding the Force. I wonder what a careful Jedi could do with the cautious balancing of both sides...
Wilek Nereus
Monday, April 17, 2000 12:01:13 AM
IP: proxy1.spaceproxy.com

Real post and an explanation on why I havent been around lately
PAPERS PAPERS PAPERS...The good news is that I am finished with one and its now with my professor, and I'm nearly finished with my second.. its on((You will all love this)) Cuchulain,Will Wallace,Bewowulf,Robin hood, and King Arthur, and the last one will be on Edgar Huntley,Has anyone else read this?.
Also around the bend are finals and I'm a suffering from the cold my brother had. or maybe something i'm allergic too just blossomed, either way, it makes me feel icky...I'll be posting a lot more after the 28th and that's a promise.
Spacebabie
Orlando, Fl, USA
Sunday, April 16, 2000 11:59:57 PM
IP: user-37kap2q.dialup.mindspring.com

Starsinger> Watching Dinosaurs now. I'm impressed so far. It says a lot that my only complaint is that the tips of the sauropods tails waved to flag like. (As a dragon I can say that tails for the most part stay stiff for balance, too much waving and you'd knock yourself off balance.

I do like the Wild Kingdom/New Wilderness way they tell things.

Anakin and the chosen> Yeah, I don't think the Jedi think the prophecy is a good thing. Prophey's rarely portend good things.
Taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Sunday, April 16, 2000 11:34:37 PM
IP: ced60-112.ced.csupomona.edu

Boy, it cleared out early. :)
My Spring Break is here!
*BYE*
silverstar
Sunday, April 16, 2000 11:02:08 PM
IP: l3p58.dav.mother.com

Was I the only one who saw Walking With Dinasaurs on the Discovery channel tonight? The animation was unbelievable. They had a story line that ran from early dinasaur to the meteor hit that ended their reign. Tommorrow will be the making of Walking With Dinasaurs and that should prove to be interesting as well. I'd give it a 9.5 for watching. I couldn't decide whether it was too long at 3 hours and 8 minutes or not long enough it was so facinating.

Apparently Disney is having a movie out called Dinasaur out next week. Anyone know anything about it?
Starsinger
Sunday, April 16, 2000 10:43:42 PM
IP: proxy-393.public.rwc.webtv.net

<smiles again> Thank you too, Gside. Sorry I missed you on the first pass. :)
Kit
Sunday, April 16, 2000 10:14:14 PM
IP: pool-207-205-146-128.dlls.grid.net

<reads GXB's, Archwolf's and Niamh's posts from last week's CR and grins> Thanks, guys! :)

Top something!
Kitainia
Sunday, April 16, 2000 10:09:18 PM
IP: pool-207-205-146-128.dlls.grid.net

Top Ten?
Spacebabie
Orlando, Fl, USA
Sunday, April 16, 2000 10:06:53 PM
IP: user-37kap2q.dialup.mindspring.com

Top ten!! Barely!
Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY, USA
Sunday, April 16, 2000 10:00:43 PM
IP: dialup-209.246.78.60.newyork2.level3.net

ME HERE !! ME HERE !!


"SOYLEN GREEN - IS MADE OF -"

::collapses::

{guess what i just saw}.



Rodlox
Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:58:58 PM
IP: cc391097-b.catv1.md.home.com

**stumbles in**

Semiconscious and in the Top Ten!

**stumbles out**
Coyote the Bando
Algonac, Michigan
Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:54:04 PM
IP: zzz-209252248158.splitrock.net

6th!!!!!
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:53:54 PM
IP: dialin-1049-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net

uh, i meant 4th
Archwolf
Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:47:59 PM
IP: viking203-43.dhcp.csuohio.edu

Second!
Archwolf
Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:47:40 PM
IP: viking203-43.dhcp.csuohio.edu

3rd

I think Dark Rich Orange is closer to tan than Off Yellow.

Wilek> translation: And SNK is famous for bad translations (a word was invented for this: SNK-glish). "You have victoly." But then, that is no different than listening to the engineering faculty.

Kitainia> <<most programs I've seen featuring wolves portray them as brutal vicious animals, not as noble or intelligent creatures>>: Ever see dueSouth? They did a good job with Dief (One of these days I might put up Dief's in Love from the soundtrack).
Personal history: You have been through so much that would utterly destroy so many others. I respect your strength, and earnestly hope you never have to endure such an ordeal again.

Fire Storm> <<Color = Anti-Dark>>: Or, if you want to be technical, "Color = All"
<<After sawing off the old part and drilling out the bone>>: Of course. You do need a clean joint, and it's much better when you don't split the bone.
<<Tis no hell worse than a womans scorn>>: "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,/Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned" (William Congreve, The Mourning Bride Act III, Scene 8) More often heard as "Hell hath no fury.."
<<As far as the current pictures... would you change the way any of them look visually>>: demona.jpg seems to some sort of computer error. About an eighth of the way from the bottom, a strip of the picture seems to be off color and moved to the left. If the picture is scaled to 3", the strip is ~1/8 of an inch tall, and has about that same offset from the rest of the picture.
And do you really need the white boxes around the frames of the lone Ariana, Graeme, and Nudnick.
And then Lapin's clarinet just bothers me... (as well as a couple other pictures, but I shouldn't talk since I can't draw)

Rodlox> <<a higher brain-body ratio than humans and dolphins>>: What really matters though, is the surface area...

Warpmind> <<... during the Viking age>>: Thought I had covered my self with "very untrained observer" and "stupid American like me." I will readily admit to culture-centricity (not the beilef in a superior culture, only knowledge of that one culture) (which I believe Americans are suposed to be famous for).
<<maybe it could be considered humor with a fairly sinister touch, no?>>: I was originally going to say "perverted sense of humor," but that just sounded wrong.

Random Star Wars thought: Did Anakin bring balance to the Force? I mean there was an entire council of Jedi (plus more, I would think), and only two Sith. At the time of his death, we know of the equivalent of one Jedi and half a Sith. And do the Jedi *really* want balance, or their own viewpoint triumphant?

Daniel Johnson> <<I've been thinking. If you knew me better, you'd realize just how scary that can be>>: Must be something in that Jersey water (you don't want me thinking, ever. Good thing it hasn't happened yet.).

From my current attitude, I think my next few mp3s will not be as well liked. But they are oh so good. Especially todays. I proudly present Pachelbel's Cannon in D. (and if you like NGE, check our http://symphony.cyril.com/ under symphony of eva for some other versions)

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:47:35 PM
IP: gside.dorm.rutgers.edu

*Fritz suddenly appears in the middle of the room, throws his head back and laughs, then runs off, a sheet of paper trailing in his wake.*

THE PAPER READS:
Dear friends,
I have not posted in a while, and I do not know when I will be once again able to: my de- lurk device is with the Fritz. As I am running out of paper, I will keep this short.
Re: the crime commited against Christine>
This plagerism of her story is a crime, call it a cyber- crime if you will. Cyber- criminals are becoming more blatent and more numerous. Something must be done, something more than a joyride or nasty e- mails. Does anyone have the WWWwolf's e- mail address?
Your friend, trapped in lurk- mode,
Cyborg
Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:45:53 PM
IP: modemcable165.125-200-24.mtl.mc.videotron.net

FIRST!!
Mecord
Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:42:47 PM
IP: usr62.mtwest.net