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Hey! not much going on here, just saying hi and that I've been lurking, not deserting!
Happiness!
Daphne, apprentice-wordsmith - [l.grow_yophilly@excite.com]
Saturday, November 4, 2000 08:46:36 PM
IP: dialup-63.214.198.207.philadelphia1.level3.net

Hey, just stopped by to see what's what. Having a good weekend so far. Will post more later!
Jaden - [jaden12@hotmail.com]
Saturday, November 4, 2000 07:35:30 PM
IP: 211.216.216.35

Gunjack Valentine> Very well said on all points

Sorry, I haven't posted lately, but I'm very busy with school at the moment with approximately 15 assignments to due by the end of the month. I so looove this 120% course load.

Welcome all newcomers.
Peter - [hybridone@ignmail.com]
Kamloops, BC, Canada
Saturday, November 4, 2000 06:36:58 PM
IP: dial-318.ocis.net

Greg><<The way I see it, a man has no right to be pro-life, a woman does though cause it's a woman's body, but men should just mind their own business when it comes to abortion.>> The above statement seems to violate logic. Scientifically speaking, a fetus CANNOT be a part of a women's body, because it is geneticly distinct. You can say it's a parasite, but not part of her. Can you refute?
As an extension of this arguement, it's not really the woman's body, it's the "fetus'" body that's in question.

Second, if the woman holds so much moral authority over the "fetus" before birth, why should a man be held responsible for it's welfare afterward? Why should he pay child support if he is completely removed from any moral responsability for the "fetus"?

Third, if only the people directly involved in a moral dilemma are able to decide on the ethical course of action(assuming the seeming fallacy that the man is not), you have just demolished one of the pillars of modern civilization; the concept of impartial law. Our entire justice system is based on the idea that rational human beings can determine right from wrong, and apply those concepts to society as a whole. But you say that half the population should be excluded from the debate, simply because they lack personal experience. Should we then confine the debate about the ethics of murder to just the murderers and murdered? :)

That's all for now... I'll try to get some political commentary in tomorrow, if I haven't caused too much damage already... :)

Peace!
Gunjack Valentine
Saturday, November 4, 2000 06:21:09 PM
IP: houston-ip-5-235.dynamic.ziplink.net

*Lynati Enters*

the computer lab closes in 3 minutes...

so I must be quick, like the bunnies.

Warpmind: We aren't aloud to screw around with the schools computers, and even if we were I don't know how to do that.
I'm mostly computer illiterete. :( However, I am supposed to be getting a computer as a graduation gift (it's a little late...) and when I do I find out how to do all that stuff. (or you can e-mail me instructions, If you feel so inclined.)

Azarah: Weeee! someone anwsered! you were the only one, but maybe (I hope) people just thought that part of the post was just in response to Christine and didn't bother to read it.
having another artist would be useful; I am one myself but having another person's takes on (scenes) is good.
I need to email you. but the lab is closing...

Until tomorrow then.

*Lynati Bows out of the room, fading back through the drapes*
Lynati
Saturday, November 4, 2000 05:57:15 PM
IP: 208.12.249.253

*Valentine enters, wanders despondently over to his desk, and starts scanning the posts*

Ugh. This whole week has sucked. The weather finally decided to stop pretending it was spring, and has now switched into the beginnings of winter. As it happens, the cloudy skies and early twilight match my mood perfectly...:P

And, as it happens, so do the weeks posts... What have we got here?

*reads through God Debate posts*

Hmm. I'm disappointed. I was waiting for the heavy hitters in here to make my points for me, but they never did...
So that leaves it to me.

Suffering - The stance of "Suffering is essential to understand Joy" conflicts with the Bible on several points. First, if suffering were a nescessary reference point for understanding life, why didn't God include it in his origional creation?
Also, at a more abstract level, this concept merges into the "No Absolutes" philosophy, which is totally contrary to the teachings of the Bible. If suffering is nescessary to understand joy, how can there be joy in heaven? Do we drag the memories of our past lives in with us, to maintain reference? I don't think this flies...

Suffering is God's Fault - For starters, let's assume that the God that we're putting on trial is the Christian diety. This seems reasonable to me, as it's the Christian diety who seems to get most of the blame. For the remainder of this apology, I'll assume that Christianity and the Bible are true.
Now then, we have to decide if we'll take him at his word on the subject. I think we should; we're accusing him of every evil in existence, and it's only fair to allow him to defend himself.
So, we look back to his records of how he set the whole ball rolling. According to everything I've read or studied about the Creation, God *did not* include suffering in his creation; rather, the world started out as a utopia. Man and woman blantently disregarded a simple and extremely important restriction, and in doing so ruined their own happiness.
Two points. First, according to the Bible, God is both perfectly rightous and perfectly just. The result is that he CAN NOT allow sin to go unpunished without violating his own nature.
Second, God loved the man he created enough to give him the ability to reject his creator. "If you love something, set it free" and all that.
Sadly, the created beings decided to disobey their creator, with the fallout being separation from their creator and the introduction of suffering into the world.

Under the above timeline, blaming God for suffering is rather like beating a rental car with a baseball bat and then complaining to the company about all the dents. God doesn't cause suffering, WE do. He could stop us, but to do so would violate our free will and kill the whole point of creation in the first place.
*steps back to await rebuttals*

Lady Corax><<I heard a quote once that went something like, "God, please save me from your followers." I have to say that it's sad but too often true that the people who say they are die-hard Christians and such are some of the most twisted people I know, basically because they don't believe that God has any room for diversity.>> *Valentine chuckles, and begins painting a large bull's-eye on his chest* Ya know, it's fascinating how people can open fire on you without even knowing it... :) The problem, as I'll try to demonstrate below, is that the things you wish that we Christians would stop doing are the *VERY THINGS* that make us Christians... So in other words, you like Christianity as long as it doesn't really follow Christ. For example:
<<*They* are 'His chosen people,'...>> Which, I believe, is a direct quote from the Bible. <<...and anyone else is beneath them and going to Hell.>> I disagree with the "beneath them" part, but the "going to Hell" part is layed down by Jesus (check those references to "weeping and nashing of teeth").
<<I happen to think that we're all in this together, and just because one group calls God by a different name, or calls to many different names, that doesn't make them evil or wrong. But a lot of people can't accept that.>> I for one don't accept it because I believe it to be fundamentally illogical. If all beliefs that claim to be true are, then truth is a subjective fiction. As I attempted to point out to Paul last week, the consequences of that view involve suffering on an unimaginable scale.

So, after looking through the above, exactly which of Christianity's core beliefs do you NOT disaprove of? :)

*Finishes painting the target on his chest, pulls a blindfold over his eyes, and calmly awaits the firing squad*

That's all for today... see ya in a few...
Gunjack Valentine - [miphsingleton@hotmail.com]
Saturday, November 4, 2000 05:56:27 PM
IP: houston-ip-5-235.dynamic.ziplink.net

**Winterwolf takes a break to post**

Hi everybody! Wanted to take a moment to catch up in here. This week promises to be evil! I will be the on call problem solver during election week when people will check the web site to get all the last minute info on the political candidates. If you find web pages that say "Gargoyles Forever" then you know the pressure got to me! ;)

Doug> Hi! <work> With the additional three newcomers on the security staff and the removal of all the problematic individuals it sounds like you really will be able to get back to a normal work environment. May this bring you a less hectic workload! You've earned it in my opinion. <Keith and Stephanie> A huge and happy congratulations to Keith and Stephanie! I'm delighted that they will work this out together! My warmest wishes for their future! <Steven> Yes that's accurate she is more like Steven. She has been retrained about 8 or 9 times. Her mentality is that the code is already written she goes has to find a similar program and tweak it. She is also good at breaking things that have worked problem free for years. Well it has taken time but she has a pile of bad reviews that have finally caught up with her. Her days appear to be numbered though just like Steven.

Warpmind> <access> Well the room won't be the same with a reduction in your visits! It's nice to regularly have your general wackiness and puns! The puns typically require an initial groan but someone has to say them! ^_^

Caliope> Hi! **HUGZ** ~_^ <Roswell> It will be great! I tape them just in case I can't see the episode when it's on. I'd give you the tape in case you miss it but that's probably easier said than done! ;P <Tess> I think we could have just had her get together with Kyle and then just make sure they don't run off out of Roswell. The two of them looked about ready to come together don't you think? <PR> I better start checking out the flight info! :P <Anime con> Enjoy the Anime con! I expect to here some details! ;) <DC> I also want details on DC! Have a blast! :D <hyper> Hey that's one of the reasons I like you so much! lol **HUGZ again** <gone a week> Oh in that case... **gives you a few HUGZ for each day you'll be gone** Thanks for the big supply of HUGZ! It will make the week better and I know it will be needed! ^_^

WinterWitch> <Ice Hockey> **glances to his hockey gear** Now I want to play! :) <soar throat> Hope that clears up soon! Maybe you should have some cough drops, I know they work for me! <Gargoyles start> The new season for TGS Gargoyles begins shortly after Pendragon is complete. **bounces** That's just a few more weeks!

Guess that wraps it up for now! See all of you next time!

**Winterwolf goes back to cleaning and paying bills**

Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
BRonx, NY
Saturday, November 4, 2000 04:16:46 PM
IP: 206.15.120.105

Doug: I’ve pretty much nailed Jennifer in my memory (funnily, I never thought twice about it before ‘Iris, Lily and Rose’). Although rather embarrassingly, I did mistake Elaine for Elena when thinking about it earlier (I checked it): I’m thinking too much. The secret to not making mistakes with names has to be not thinking about names. :}
Ed - [ed.reynolds@virgin.net]
Saturday, November 4, 2000 03:48:38 PM
IP: webcacheh11a.cache.pol.co.uk

Doug and Gside> Thanks for your support

Election> I'm voting for Al Gore. Though if things were different I'd vote for Nader, but he won't win and I don't want to help sweep Bush into the Oval Office. I'm sorry but I can never vote for a pro-life candidate. The way I see it, a man has no right to be pro-life, a woman does though cause it's a woman's body, but men should just mind their own business when it comes to abortion. Also I don't like how Bush's tax plans only benefit the rich. I think Bush is an evil man. Then again, I'm a Liberal so of course I'm going to say this.

No offense is intended to any conservative posters here :) Hm, I don't see a lot of Liberals in here

Well, I'm off to visit my friend at his college. Should be fun.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Saturday, November 4, 2000 02:46:20 PM
IP: fe0-0.cache-01.nyc.bestweb.net

Entity> Well, I'm not voting for Bush and I'll slit my wrists before I vote for Gore. I'm voting for Harry Browne, the Libertarian candidate. He intends to eliminate layers of Executive orders through Executive Order and he will disarm the Capitol Hill Guards who guard the US House. He also refuses to accpet Federal Funds, but he has no chance of being elected, though I have only one vote and I rather vote for someone I like than the lesser of the two Big Government Liberals.

As for tehri platforms and plans, either candidate then has to face Congress. Do you have a link to these plans? I don't get Time. I imagine they both suck Kennedys ;)
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
New Orleans, Louisiana
Saturday, November 4, 2000 02:06:06 PM
IP: adsl-78-220-248.msy.bellsouth.net

Warpmind- This will be my first Presidential election and to be honest I'm really not that impressed. I almost feel like going up to the both with a quarter and let fate make the choice. As for cheap "mud slinging" tactics nothing surprises me anymore. If I were in a similar situation some jerk would probably be waving my little run-ins with our uniformed friends. When it comes to winning though it can get real ugly.
Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
denton, tx
Saturday, November 4, 2000 01:55:24 PM
IP: spider-wc044.proxy.aol.com

**DPH walks in the room feeling refreshed after roughly 12 hours of sleep.**

I still stick to my own point: people still worship different gods today, even in America.

**DAD SITUATION**
If I could move out and make it on my own, I would it. Right now with my current hourly wage ($6.25/hour), I doubt I could. I do plan on moving out on my own, but not before I make a good enough wage ($10/hour and up). I plan on going behind his back and secretly get some conselling to deal with some of my emotion distress from my childhood. I just do not think he would understand.
**END DAD SITUATION**

Is it not considered rude to leave a political advertisement on the answering machine? I got a political telemarketer and I had to be rude because the person left me no polite way to get off the phone. That kind of thing would make me less likely to vote for a candidate if I did not have my mind made up.
DPH - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
AR, USA
Saturday, November 4, 2000 01:05:00 PM
IP: max1-50.cwy.cei.net

<sighs> My bad in the last post- It just sounded like Keith David. Different name in the credits. <shrugs> Oh well. Good episode just the same, especially the ending.
Kit
Saturday, November 4, 2000 12:29:01 PM
IP: pool-63.52.168.90.dlls.grid.net

This room really needs a Goliath pic. :P

Keith David was voicing the gorilla on Batman Beyond this morning. Hope everyone watched!

Thanks for all the congrats to Keith and Stephanie. Doug and I are real happy for them too. More later.
Kit
Saturday, November 4, 2000 12:16:09 PM
IP: pool-63.52.171.188.dlls.grid.net

*Warpmind enters, cheerful.*
Howdy, gang.

Green Baron: *Grin* I doubt God allows pain and suffering because he can't be there to wipe our butts from cradle to grave. More likely, it's because we're supposed to get some amount of perspective in life... And, of course, because he was temporarily insane when he granted Man the gift of Free Will... ;)

And I hear there's a large hullaballoo about Gorge Bush Jr. having an old DUI case... as a non-American, I wish to ask the American population in general: So What? Who (counting those old enough to drink, anyway) has not even once made a foolish judgement while intoxicated? C'mon, this seems more like a crazy media stunt that the whole Lewinsky case ever was. Frankly, having a DUI over two decades old isn't likely to be the end of the world. If it was 24 *weeks* old, the situation would be different...

Mary: Combining sex magic with the Kama Sutra? So long as the Kama doesn't turn into a period... ];) (Sorry, bad pun, courtesy of Spider Robinson.) Still, the idea sounds fascinating... Maybe I'll go on an undercover investigation into Wicca soon? ];)

Gside: The Thin H Line? That sounds vile, perverted, sick, twisted, kinky, and I'm already searching, amigo. :)

*Wanders off to find "The Thin H Line"...*
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@usa.net]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Saturday, November 4, 2000 10:20:42 AM
IP: mp-217-206-143.daxnet.no

In answer to Entity's questions...

We will be advertising The Gathering 2001 everywhere we possibily can. That's why in just three weeks, three of our staff are traveling to the Loscon 27, the annual convention of the Los Angeles Regional Science Fiction and Fantasy Society. We're even sponsoring a "Gargoyles" panel at Loscon, with Greg Weisman scheduled to appear and speak. With Marina Sirtis now on the guest roster, we're hoping to build support among the Trek fans as well as Gargoyles fans who will be at Loscon who haven't become involved in the online fandom. We've also been sending out flyers to other cons around the country.

To be perfectly honest, though, I firmly believe that the BEST support the Gathering can get begins at home, with "Gargoyles" fans. I've said this before, and I'm going to keep saying it: if you love "Gargoyles" and help The Gathering, the absolute best thing you can do is pre-register for the convention, get your name on our membership list, and ATTEND THE GATHERING next June!

As everyone who was at G2K knows, we set two important goals for The Gathering 2001: 20 special guests MINIMUM, and an attendance of at least 500 fans. We've already met that first goal, and chances are good we're going to continue to go beyond it. But we need YOUR support to reach the second goal. Our membership right now stands at just over 100, so we're already 1/5 of the way there, and we're confident that the fandom will support us in climbing those numbers the rest of the way.

As Greg Weisman said at G2K, with 500 people attending, there's a very good chance The Gathering can finally attract the attention of the Disney powers-that-be... and that's the BEST chance we have as a fandom of getting the show back on the air. So yes, a lot IS riding on The Gathering 2001. This is a golden opportunity for the fandom, and we hope we can count on every single fan out there to help us achieve it.

:: gets down off the podium and posts the Gathering 2001 link ::
Patrick Toman
Saturday, November 4, 2000 08:48:46 AM
IP: ac8281b2.ipt.aol.com

Well, I was rather lazy yesterday and am now more behind. Anyone want to take any bets on whether I'll catch up on this week by the wipe (Robby, you don't count because you can ensure that I wouldn't)?

But first, I have found a new online comic that I think everyone here should look at. It is called Fans (found at faans.com ), and I find it qiute entertaining.

Anyway, from where I left off:

Grag Bishansky> May your troubles be resolved soon.

Welcome Azrael.

Someone who does not seem to be present, and apparently better forgotten (for the sake of the room), though I do feel the need to defend science, as it is also a defense of my life and that of my parents> I never said science was constant. Whenever something new is discovered, science must be altered to account for it. Logic, though, is constant. As something entirely theoretical, nothing new can be discovered about it, and therefore need not change. Do you believe two people can end up with different evaluations of the truth value of the statement "If only birds can fly, then if a robin can fly, a robin is a bird" (please note the first part of the satement before you say anything about bats)?
For science and imagination, think about Einstien. Just about everything he did relied on imagination. Also, if you rely solely on imagination to come up with a belief system, there is no real intellectual honesty involved. By involving science, you end up with something quite valueable: reproducability.
Words are only labels for concepts, not the concepts themselves. Questioning the ability to properly communicate is one reason I hated Expos. It is not worth the time. In normal circumstances you can assume everyone's lexicons to be very similar to the point of being identical (engineers love approximations). If there is a significant difference, it should be evident and easily fixed by trading definitions and choosing one (or an amalgamation of the two) for future discussion. If you don't make these assumptions, why would anyone bother to say anything if they were nearly certain that what they say would be interpreted as somthing completely different than what they intended.

I feel like pasting another definition, this time from dictionary.cambridge.org nihilism: a system of thought which says that there are no principles or beliefs which have any meaning or can be true.

Guandalug> Thank you for listening to my ruminations and perhaps implementing them.

Gunjack> <>: Gandalf. You can't go wrong with a dwarf or two (make sure to check the color schemes if you do Thorin's group). And of course, since you are here, you do have to do a steel clan.

Kyryn> <<I've seen the animated versions of [Tolkien]>>: What did you think about using rotoscoping for the first half of the trilogy, as opposed to the standard animation in Hobbit and the second half?

Warpmind> <<"Different strokes for different people"... hmmm... with minds like Gside... maybe I should
have chosen another phrase>>: Why would you say that? Though I am reminded of an installment of The Thin H Line. Ever seen it? It's a web comic, quite fit for your tastes (the H stands for perverted). I'd probably get in trouble if I posted a link, but I feel relatively confidant you can find it.
<<#1 was on NES, later was on SNES, right?>>: So far they have three for each system for which they develop (NES, SNES, PSX).

Kitainia> May the best come of all that has happened.

Azrah> May you find what you need.

Right, I've passed noon wednesday. I'll break here (Engineers aren't quite built for extreme amounts of philosophy). Note to self: start with Niamhgold.

Because it is November and Americans are approaching Thanksgiving, the mp3 from wednesday is Thanks for the Memories by Bob Hope.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Saturday, November 4, 2000 01:44:01 AM
IP: gside.resnet.rutgers.edu

Just a quickie again...real post eventually...

Coyote> I *love* the pics! You make a very good Xanatos. So who won...you or Maeve? j/k...I know that you did! :) Great pics. :)

Green Baron> **grins** Of course I know who Warren Buffett is, silly! For one thing, my dad is a free enterprise teacher, so I've always been kinda into the whole business world stuff...hmm...maybe I should become a business major...:) **grins wider** Although I would still rather chat with Alan Greenspan, you can feel free to propose to me anytime. :)

In the meantime, you can check out some tips from Warren Buffett at http://www.angelfire.com/co/simplewealth/buffettips.html
(I tried to find this one site that actually tries to keep track of some of his investments...I couldn't, though...sorry!)

Enjoy your weekends, everyone! :)
Lady Corax
Saturday, November 4, 2000 01:26:40 AM
IP: reslife216-176.rescomp.arizona.edu

*enters*

Hey People!

Green Baron><<pics of me>> Well, I sent Bah-chan some pics of me in my yukata (summer kimono) and I'm hoping he scanned them and sent them to Spike. I asked Bah-chan to order a drawing of me as a gargoyle in my yukata. :) Just ask Bahemut next time you see him, he might share with the rest of you what I look like. :) I would get a scanner myself, but my folks say, "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!" >:P And if you do get to see me in my yukata, I must point out that my hair has grown quite a bit since those pics were taken. ;P I don't really like those pics myself, I think I look chunky with funky hair. ;P But Bah-chan insists otherwise. ;)

Warpmind><<Binding sex spells>>Hmmm..I'm not too educated in the ways of sex magic, but I do know that binding spells are spells that are meant to ward off any negative spells(i.e. hexes, curses) projected on to you. I think they send the negative spells back to the person who sends them. Personally, I think sex magic should just be having fun with a good old Kama Sutra book. Hehehehehehehehe...>;)

Damn it!!! I have been trying for two weeks to rent "Princess Mononoke" to watch with my father, and it's been rented out. And Blockbuster has only two tapes!!grrr...And they were due back _yesterday_! And they're not there! >.<

BTW, my ankle is feeling a lot better, thank you all. ^_^ I just had to miss school Thursday since I couldn't walk on it. But that's ok, since Wensdays and Thurdays are Block Days and Thursdays I have only one academic class. The other is food service. >:P

Must go now. Night all!

*GONE*
Mary Flanders
Saturday, November 4, 2000 12:43:35 AM
IP: adsl-63-195-144-108.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net

Entity: Would you die for me? Especially if I was going to draw and quarter you to do it? I bet the answer is no, no matter where you would spend enternity. Jesus did. Second, Paul was indead a religous zealot, he was not however, a Zealot. He truely believed what he taught. I believe the one to whom you refer is Simon Foot-in-the-mouth Peter. Paul is respected <by myself and most others I speak with> not as much for what he said <he wasn't very eloquent, after all>, but for what he didn't say.
Also, I don't put anyone on the level of Jesus as far as religous significance goes. Not Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul, Moses, or any of them. The two who come closest are Moses and Elijah, and they're still not fit to tie Jesus' shoes.
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com~]
Arlington, TX
Friday, November 3, 2000 11:51:45 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

DPH: <<<Define theology and you will discover science has created its own theology about the origins of the universe and of life.>>>

Well, I'm too lazy to look it up, but there is one substantial difference: science *attempts* to go from evidence, theoretical reasoning, to be objective, only assume what has been proven, etc. Religion circumvents all these things and replaces them with faith.

<<<What is a god? Something you worship. Everyone has something that they worship one way or another. Workaholics worship greed and money.>>>

I never bought that, sorry. They don't "worship" it. A god is an *entity* that you worship. Nay, that you believe in.

G2001 Update> Holy Jesus, Mary Mother of God! (Hope I didn't offend anyone with that, especially in light of the whole religion discussion... but GOOD GOD!)

Marina Sirtis? Marina Sirtis!

This kinda makes me anxious now. What if the projections fall short? What if everything is staked on this Gathering?

*taps fingers nervously*

Question to Patrick and the rest of the con staff> Have you guys followed through with a magazine ad yet? Or postings to sci-fi/fantasy newsgroups/bulletin boards? With Marina Sirtis to boast, you could actually attract some real "outside" support -- as in, non-fandom fans.

If I could be there, I so would...

Taleweaver> Your knack for shattering the accepted never ceases to impress me. Btw, when's your Jeopardy thing?

Azrael: <<<Christ and God-the-Father are one and the same >>>

IMO, anyone capable of digesting science-fiction should be able to comprehend the whole Holy Trinity/they're-the-same-but-different thing.

<<<Jesus, KNOWING what was going to happen to him VOLUNTEERED to die in what is perhaps the most painful way people have ever concieved.>>>

Psh, he was the Son of God. He knew where he'd be spending the rest of eternity afterwards. (Not trying to be disrespectful, but truly, wouldn't his death have had more meaning if he hadn't been self-aware?)

Paul> Since he's been brought up, I figured I'd toss this out: anyone else notice how a lot of the more important figures in Christian history were radical zealots? Paul had to be the king of the crop. Obviously not a very thoughtful or mature man. He thought a lot less than he acted. And yet he's up there alongside Jesus and Mary.

Green Baron: <<<Our knowledge of misery is largely subjective.>>>

Cool point.

<<>>

*shrug* I don't much care about drunk driving from when he was half his age. I do care that he *was* an alcoholic. But a DUI doesn't add any oil to that fire.

Thing with Bush is, he's like the under-achiever who only has to NOT screw up in order to impress the masses. His drinking is behind him. Well, surely we can let that go. Oh yeah, he also didn't go to war. Well, lots of people didn't. Hmm, but do they later use "I love the nation of America" as a catch phrase?

Look at the debates. All Bush had to do was not fumble over his tongue and people proclaimed him the winner of all three! Bush himself admits this. *shakes head*

I'm even more dissatisfied with those debates now, though, then I was then. In Government class today, we went over a Time magazine article breaking down both candidates' platforms on the ten biggest issues. Let me tell you, it highlighted a ton of stuff that either candidate could've used as VERY effective ammunition to their opponent. Yet they didn't. So people are less informed.

I HEARTILY suggest everyone go out and pick up this issue of Time. After reading it, if you're still for Bush... well, I don't know, I don't want to sound zealous, but I'd *really* feel the need to give you a good ol' slapping.

Garoyles Script> Didn't Greg say the dude would have one in by October? Wonder what's going on. Think our fearless leader is in the loop still (even if he has to shoehorn himself in)?
Entity - [cotleur@mediaone.net]
Friday, November 3, 2000 11:17:09 PM
IP: nic-30-c5-215.mw.mediaone.net

Green Baron<Plato wrote The Cave.>: Yes, I know, but he attributed it to Socrates <thus the name "The Caverns of Socrates."> As far as we know, Plato was just writing down what his teacher actually had said.

Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Friday, November 3, 2000 10:35:39 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

Hello, CR family. I have now been afflicted with a cold. I hate this feeling. My throat is scratchy and I had to leave work early. Good thing my cousin just writes me a paycheck and isn't too considered about me giving a full 15 hours each week. I love nepotism :)

This morning I saw an amusing bumper sticker. It said, "Haven't found Jesus? Try looking for His Mother". That seems to be fitting for me.

Mary Flanders> That is unfortunate ::hugs:: BTW, we need a pic of you to see if SJ is right about you being a cute Wiccan girl :)

Entity> I beleive that Geroge W Bush did his action as part of a routine. I figured you'd mention something about his DUI he got 24 years ago, by now. I hear that Bush will win Ohio. I hope you're not upset by that.

As for mysteriousness of God, we are a finite, limited race, not to mention arrogant, selfish, and well...human, but that is what makes us what we are. A scene form Babylon 5 comes to mind. G'Kar was trying to explain Sigma 957 (I'm not certain the exact name) and he tried to compare an ant's understanding of us to explain those beings on teh Sigma area. To me, it seems soem things we will never undestand, nor were we meant to actually understand, though we are perfectly welcome to try and gain from such forays.

Honestly, I know nothing of God. I beleive in God and His Holy Mother, obviously. I do not make more claims than that. It is what I beleive. I may very well be worng, but I don't think anyone is truly right, especially a bunch of slef-righteous forgs in the mid-eighteenth cnetury, like Voltaire, Rosseau, the Marqui DuSaude, and other Enlightenment philosophers claiming their crap didn't stink.
Aside form that. Mysteries are fun and make life interesting.

Warpmind> To be very simplistic, I think God allows pain and suffering, because he's not there to wipe our butts for us from cradle to grave. There is a story of a nun who was watching a little homeless girl shivering in teh cold and obviously hungry. The nun asked God what He woudld do about it. His response: I created you.

That to me is much better than any Utopia or Paradise.

DPH>
<<However, I have a problem with some people who claim to be speaking for my God. I will not mention names.>>
I hope you weren't referring to me.

As for the tobacco farmers, they are merely supplying a product demanded. The peopel who use tobacco knwo it is unhealthy. It is their choice. Tobacco is a fruitful cash crop and these farmers have to eat, too. One day, people will smart enough not to smoke, but I doubt it. I do wish that tobacco was only used to make cigars and the shredded stuff for pipes, though. I refuse tod ate a girl who smokes cigarettes, personally. It is a disgusting habit and I'll aim an aerosol can at anyoen who lights one up in my domicile :)

As for master plans showing so much interference in our lives, that is so Calvinistic. God allows suffering becuase there are evil people and if God ended teh suffering and misery in the world, our free will would be gone as well. Then why were we created?

SOROW> I hope you feel better, sis. ::hugs::

Steve Allen> He was very funny. I'll miss him.

SJ> Well, there is a difference between Joey and the Goy (Gore/Lieberman) and Steve Alen. Allen's efforts were largely private sector and merely a statement of free speech. Joey and the Goy are trying to use the protective arm of Government to wipe our butts for us and protect teh children who really belong in a classroom controlled by a nun with a steel ruler.

Azrael> While I do not beleive in being "born again", especially since I was baptized at 3 weeks old and no more saved than anyone else alive, I do beleive you understood what I menat by joy and sorrow. I wish I could tell Fr Armstrong, too. We compare our feelings with others, and if we feel upset or miserable, we are comparing it to better times. My ancestors were Scotish Barons. They lived in wealth for theri time, but their lifestyle would be well below the poverty level comapred to today. The poor in our own nation are evry well off compared to otehr areas of teh world, so many things are relative, especially feelings and opinions.

Taleweaver> You missed my point. Our knowledge of misery is largely subjective. A child born with cerebal palsey may live an existence we couldn't bear to, though that child does not consider it too horrible. A child who went to La Rose in Switzerland for High School would consider his education quite poor if he went to College at Loyola Marymount or UVA, though we would consdier that Education a rich one. Pleasure and suffering can exist without the otehr, but how we can recognize one without experiencing the other? I live a comfprtable life, but Bill Clinton may find my life miserable because I am 23 and still a virgin.

Azarah> So you cut off all your hair. Will you be selling flowers in an airport now :) I am gald your life is improving somewhat. Times will get better for you.

Lady Corax> Yes!!! You knwo who warrne Buffett is. You should abandon Engineering and be a Business Major :) Also, since you know who Warren Buffett is, would it be okay if I proposed to you ;)

Doug> That is good news. I am glad Keith is going to act responsibly. Maybe you should call up Father Haas :)

Azrael> Plato wrote The Cave. He had some interesting ideas, but I think St. Thomas Aquinas added a much better polish to them, with some of his own insight.

Kaioto> I have a firend with a Vulgate Bible, too. I just own a pre-Second Vatican Confraternity version that has teh book of Revelation written as Apocalypse. I need to read it more often. I think we must also recognize that the Bible is not the sole resource for our faith. We also have 2000 years of traidtion that help to explain the Bible and sinc ethe Bible is a 2000 year old document, we need the tradition, because we live in a different time, though it is not all that different.

Winter Witch> What kin do you have in Wales? I don't think I have any Welsh, though I do have some Norman which is pretty cool :)

Now, I am off for again. Good bye
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
New Orleans, Louisiana
Friday, November 3, 2000 09:46:36 PM
IP: adsl-78-220-248.msy.bellsouth.net

**DAD SITUATION UPDATE**
For now, the room is unlocked. What he does not know will not hurt him. I can enter through a window, but with my back problems that is a real pain and is very risky. It is a standard door lock, except he has put to door lock on both sides of the door, obviously to try to keep me from opening it from inside the room.
**END DAD SITUATION**

If you find extra space in my post, you know I was keeping the idiot from reading the top of my post.

I adjusted my own diet by adding carrots to my snacks I bring to work and doubling the amount of instant breakfast drink I have morning I go to work. So far, I am getting the effect I am wanting: less hunger at suppertime.

The movie reference I gave in my RP post was CANNONBALL.

**DPH shifts into semi-Weekend Mode because he is off this weekend.**

**BFTS RP continues**
After an hour stretching, DPH's car starts up mount Cannon with Jason Filler, DPH, Plastique Saber, and Frost in it.

Meanwhile, the Speed Stars have fully loaded all ammo and weapons into their semis and are on their way to DPH's house.
**END BFTS RP**
DPH - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
AR, USA
Friday, November 3, 2000 09:37:14 PM
IP: max1-21.cwy.cei.net

Taleweaver: Let me ask it this way: How do you know which way is "Up"? Because the opposite direction is "down," right? If all anyone ever experianced was Joy, then to them it would be normal, it would have no real significance. By having joy and pain, we can tell the difference. Does one (in)validate the other? No, just gives us a frame of reference. To put it another way, when a body builder lifts weights he knows what is good because he lifted more than he did a few days ago, if he were suddenly to find someone who could lift a great deal more than he can, then he might feel that his personal best isn't good enough, it all has to do with frame of reference, not validation. Only by having joy can we know what pain is, that does not mean that pain would not exist without joy. It's much the same as at the fall of Man. It wasn't that suddenly evil existed, but now we knew the difference.
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Friday, November 3, 2000 08:17:07 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

(smiles) you're welcome Caliope (hugged for the week)
James Birdsong
Friday, November 3, 2000 08:09:02 PM
IP: adsl-63-207-129-14.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net

Still looking forward to the new CR with new pics.

Last call of the day for me. So I'll make my response brief.

Socrates and the cave, I remember it vaguely, too. But wasn't Socrates talking about a breadth of experiences? And the experiences themselves didn't validate or invalidate the others. Joy wasn't rendered meaningless because there was no pain. Any more than joy was meaningless because there was no apathy, or wonder, or curiosity or fear or anger or love. Those things were there to begin with, experience others gave them depth, but they did exist before hand.

Getting back to the topic at hand. Suffering and bliss aren't distinct opposites. They aren't inextricably linked. Just like love and lust can be together or separate or total opposites. They are one of many. And if they are independent, how can you justify suffering as a part of joy? People know pain and they don't need to know joy to appreciate it. Part of suffering is the physical response, pain. Those are sensations our body tells us when something is wrong. That exists independent of any joy or happiness I feel.

Like i said, I'll be brief. So I'll take my leave.

Bonne Weekend
Taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Friday, November 3, 2000 07:14:33 PM
IP: hal5000.engineering.csupomona.edu

Hey all!
Just wanted to say a few things, then I am off to go get ready to play ice hockey. I love that game!

Winterwolf> Thank You! Actually I had a cold, but I think something else made me sick as well. In any case I got to stay home yesterday. I feel somewhat better, but my throat still hurts. I could go on, but I am sure you don't want to hear about it.

GreenBaron> I would love to go to Scotland someday, as well as Wales(we had a clan there) and of course IRELAND. I also want to visit Greece and Rome even though no members of my family are from there.

Well, better go get ready now. Oh, BTW, when is the new season of 'Gargoyles' going to start?

BYE***
WinterWitch
Friday, November 3, 2000 06:55:47 PM
IP: ppp-63-202-222-61.dialup.snrf01.pacbell.net

Azarah: Sorry, missed your comment in my scanning earlier.
First: Socrates did believe in the Greek gods. Read Plato's The Apology of Socrates. Mostly the Caverns of Socrates was about the changing of perception. My point in bringing it up was that with out any frame of reference, we really don't know what a thing is. Read Michael Chriton's Sphere, there's a discussion in that about how if we found something way more technologically advanced than we were, and it killed us, we'd think thats what it was designed to do, when in actuallity it could very well have had a different purpose. Same thing, all pain would just be normal, its the fact that there is SOME joy, no matter how finite that lets us know the difference.
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Friday, November 3, 2000 05:57:10 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

**enters**

I think I'm gonna avoid the religion discussion here ... just a couple of quickies ...

SOROW: Bummer ... but at least strep is something you'll get over. Hang in there, girl.

Milady Corax: Not too heartless. I heard about it secondhand and didn't really have much of a reaction ... I didn't particularly care about Steve Allen one way or another, but it *is* a loss that diminishes the world. Every death is.

G2001 announcement: Man, you guys are really gonna raise the bar for us that have to follow, ain'tcha? ;)

Doug: All right then, pass along my congrats to Stephanie and Keith on their upcoming nupitals. :)

Okay, the main reason I'm posting ... clicky my name link for the promised Halloween party pics. :)

**waves to all before leaving**
Coyote the Bando - [gathering_motor_city_2004@hotmail.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Friday, November 3, 2000 05:42:08 PM
IP: 216.28.101.167

Toku: <and just to make sure that doesn't offend you, I just can't remember the last part long enough to get to the "add to comment room" screen, sorry.> Perhaps the term "real meaning" is a bit profound. What I'm really trying to say is that most modern Bibles are writen to get the meaning that was understood by the people who were there. For instance: If I were to mention "real McCoy" people from Bible times wouldn't understand it, the same goes for many "sayings" in the Bible. Many things Jesus said were much like phrases we use today <ie: cool, five-by-five, ect.> that we just don't get today. That is the "real meaning" Bibles now are trying to convey. Another good one for that is the Jewish New Testiment. You are correct when you say that we can't truely know what God is thinking.

As far as having fear when thinking about God, that I'm not quite on the level with. I understand a little "well... yeah, I'm good," but fear, no. God says we can live without fear. If you're doing what He asks, then when Judgement comes he'll accept you. Its not really all that hard even, He give real good instructions. Love the Lord thy God, and Love thy Neighbor. Not all that hard. Being nice, that's hard. I've heard the saying for a long time "You don't have to like them, but you'd better love them." That's a lot of what Jesus said. He knew that a whole lot of the people He told to love each other weren't going to get along real well, but He instructed them to love each other anyway.
As an example, my two older brothers fight constantly. If they're in the same room together for five minutes you can bet a fight is going to start soon, and yet they love each other. Neither one likes the fact that they fight, but they just get on each other's nerves just by being in the same room. Jesus said pretty much the same thing. We don't have to LIKE each other, but we are siblings through Him, and so we do have to LOVE each other. I can get into a long discourse on love, too if you want.
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Friday, November 3, 2000 05:36:57 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

Azrael: Actually, that reminds me. I've got to get my own copy of the R.C. Bible in finalized canon Latin. I remember times reading my friend's copy to be rather enlightening, even if it was just a trophy for him. Some things in the bible make a lot more sense when you don't have to translate them.

Christ did preach often to the those with money and power to try and turn them from their self-serving ways. He warned them about fitting a camel through the Eye of the Needle. However, He spent the largest part of his time living with those who were considered "unclean" or were part of the underclass. His life shows a very special place for the sick, poor, and helpless in His heart and deeds.

As for study Bibles and the like, wars have been fought over less far too many times. Interpretation is a wonderful thing and all, but I am loathe to throw around the term "real meaning" even with all the history and dogma my Church passes on in its teachings. If the last 2,000 years has taught me anything, it is that the "real meaning" of the Divine is beyond the full comprehension of limited human beings. I try to keep in mind that in the effort to understand better and better, I can't claim to truly understand His nature without self-doubt.

Revelations ... indeed ... the side I want to win looks like it will win. Whether I am _allowed_ to stand on the side I want is a matter for God to judge, not me.

I can't say with absolute certainty anything about my future is a sure thing, and you know, I kind of like it that way.
Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Friday, November 3, 2000 04:39:36 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Hi!!!! * ^_~ *

James> lol why thank you James! =^_^=

Sevarius Jr.> <<dido>>Oh she has an amazing voice! its high pitched and deep at the same time. I havent had the chance to listen to it too much, by brother kindda sequestered it for a while :P

Winterwolf> lol *HUGZ* <<DC>> Well, Blizzard or no, it'll still be fun!!! :P <<Does that mean I'm going to PR and you aren't taking 'no' as an answer>> lol Thats right! So when are you comming huh?! *taps foot* I'm waiting!!! :P <<roswell>> I know I know, it was sad, but so cool! Besides, they didnt have to brake up, just keep Tess from leaving Roswell, and I'm sure that can be achieved by just telling her the world will end if she does go! is that so hard?! As for Max, I can cirtainly understand why Liz asked him to put on a shirt, he's quite distracting. She proabably couldnt have gone through with the whole brake up thing if he were topless! :P And I hope I'm able to see next weeks ep, reeeeealy do hope I can... *HUGZ again* Till next week!!! ^_^

Well! This weekend is quite packed full of fun! I go a mini Anime convention on Saturday and I'm leaving for WASHIGTON DC ON SUNDAY!!!! Woohoo!!! heehee :P Slightly hyper, dont mind me ;P
So, Gotta go! I'll see you all next week!!! *HUGZ all, enough to last the whole week, and scampers off*
Caliope
Friday, November 3, 2000 04:26:06 PM
IP: 136.145.70.217

Azrael,
Wasn't Socrates' parable of the cave about giving up the illusions cast by things that the people can't see?? Like (in his case) the Greek Gods?? (or "gods" in general..)
humm... grade 13 philosophy is sooo very far away... and I might be wrong. I'll have to look it up again..

Azarah - [sanchinwalker@hotmail.com]
Friday, November 3, 2000 04:14:37 PM
IP: dynrez216-32168.dhr.reznet.uwo.ca

*Warpmind enters, smiling and carrying a large, apparently heavy, bag. In a few rapid steps, he's at DC's side. "Yo, DC, I was looking for you." "Uhh... you smile. Is that a good sign?" "Yeah, well, you remember Diablo II, and what I said I'd do if you were to kill another savegame for me? Well, I was in the process of delivering the deathblow earlier today... then you did your magic, Diablo wasted my Amazon, the game crashed, and my ENTIRE GEAR WENT MISSING! I'll give you a head start, though... enough for me to put on MY gear." DC gapes, then pales, then runs out through the door. Warpmind casually pulls forth some strange metal devices, which, upon closer examination, turn out to be a sort of taloned boots and gloves, clearly designed after the gargoyle hands and feet. He then puts on a helmet with a wicked-looking barbed fin on top, and starts running after DC, the taloned boots obviously designed to exponentially increase his speed relative to the force of his steps. After a few moments, inhuman screams can be heard, and Warpmind returns, carrying what appears to be a badly mutilated liver.*
Doubt DC's gonna need this one anymore... *Tosses the liver to whatever creature might want it, be it for nutrition or experimentation.*

Christine: The rough draft to "The Gifted" is done? Yeehaa! Hope to hear more such great news about it soon! (What can I say? You're so talented when it comes to ethically challenged villains...)

DPH: Dude, your dad locked you out of the computer room? That's just cruel... hey, y'know, if you could e-mail me the info on the lock, I'm *sure* I could give you a few pointers on picking it. ];)

Lynati: So, you've never been to the IRC channel? Tsk, that's got to be dealt with... Click my name for the most informative site on the subject. Then go get yourself a IRC program (mIRC, most likely) and enter Undernet, then join the channel called #callahans. THEN you will truly get together with a lot of other callahanians, but beware: the puns can make the dead tremble in their coffins at times... Believe me.

*Poing!* Demmie's gonna be at the Gathering? Marina Sirtis? YeeHaaw! I'll be the undying envy of a LOT of my compadres over here - at least the half-dozen devout Trekkies. ]:) (Since we've only got TNG, I'm sure you can imagine their upcoming envy... Heheheheheeeee..)
Mwoahaha, and I've already signed up on the early-bird deal... Ah, but it's good to be bad... ];)

Azarah: You shaved your head? Oooooo... I don't know if you noticed the little bit earlier about bald alien women, but... ];)

Doug: Thanks, just checking. Good to have those relative dates straightened out. :) Oh, and my teeth will most likely be all done (that is, the work, not the dental history) sometime next week.

Now for the part that hurts the most...
On Monday, I'll be moving into my own apartment, and I'll start working on Tuesday. Unfortunately, I won't have as regular net access as I do now (I don't *think* I will, anyway...), partially because I don't personally have an internet-capable machine. However, after 2 months, I'll know if the job is going to be a lasting thing, and at that time, I'll know whether or not it will be any point in getting my new (I'm getting a new one as soon as possible - and I've almost got the cash for it now) machine hooked up to the 'net. I'd do it at once, except the apartment doesn't have a phoneline, and I'm not settling for nything *slower* than ISDN, anyway. Preferrably cable, and I'll be wantin' a 24/7 connection, too, so... ordering the installation an' all for just two months won't be worth it, y'know? :( My point here is... for the next couple of months, I doubt I'll be able to post as frequently as I have. However, I'll still be posting, even if it means using my lunch break at work to do so.

Well, that's about it for now. I'll see you guys around, I guess.

Later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@usa.net]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Friday, November 3, 2000 04:06:28 PM
IP: mp-216-237-56.daxnet.no

To finish what I got to click happy to finish last time:
While Jesus message was about forgiveness, you also have to remember that God is the same both in the Old Testement and the New Testement. He IS power, so he doesn't have to make a big deal about it. Also remember that most of his "sermons" went to those who were rich and powerful anyway. Since they already had power, he was more concerned with making sure they used it correctly, look at the story of the Rich young Ruler <the guy who wanted to follow Jesus, but decided not to when he found out that he would have to sell all his possessions first>. Also look at the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. To those who didn't have power he said: For they shall inherit the earth. That sounds like power to me.

As far as Translations go, yes its been moved back and forth from a whole lot of languages, but remember that most modern translations are translated for meaning, not just the words themselves. Also, a lot of my insight comes from studying various Study Bibles and commentaries on the books themselves. They are a little numerous for listing, but the NIV Study Bible is a really good source if you want to get to the actual meaning behind the scriptures.
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Friday, November 3, 2000 03:54:31 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

Toku: Actually read Romans Paul states that by being born again <baptized> we have become brothers of Christ and Co-Heirs with him <slight para phrase, I don't remeber the exact wording.> To me, that says we'll be pretty equal. Even assuming that we do actually become one with God, I'll take that ;). Then again, I'm the guy who says that the whole point of the book of Revelation is to tell me that I get to win.
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Friday, November 3, 2000 03:41:01 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

Azrael: Good point about the cave thing. I don't buy into the notion that you need equal amounts of pleasure and pain in the world myself. I think the majority of pain is unnecessary, and caused by human selfishness.

Also, as for the equal bit, I think the interpretation there goes further than stated. Equal is a word used in respect to one thing or another. If it meant the exact same, you wouldn't be you anymore, you'd ~be~ Jesus and you could kiss your old personality, motivations, and soul good-bye. I think the context that the Bible is has been translated from over the course of Aramaic, Greek, Latin, German, English, and countless other languages is probably closer to "equal in love" or "equal in value" in the familial status sense that meant so much to the Jewish communities of Christ's life and times, rather than in the sense of power. Latin had a lot of words for equal, and the Church used Latin for a long time. If it is the word I think it is, it means equal in class/esteem/regard, not actual raw power.

Jesus's main themes and promises were those of acceptence, forgiveness, and brotherhood in a time of very exclusive, condemning communities. He rarely spoke with favor about power.

That is one of the main reasons that people chose Barabbas over Christ when Pilot released a prisoner for Passover. Barabbas was historically a revolutionary Zealot-type who was imprisoned by Rome under charges of theft. He promised freedom, power, and a chance to strike back at the Roman oppressors, while Jesus spoke of peace and ate at the same table as those the leaders of the Jewish community regarded as Roman filth.

I also like Taleweaver's points about mystery.
Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Friday, November 3, 2000 03:23:58 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

wingedbeast> Season 2 of Gargoyles and Season 2 of Pendragon had pretty much the same story - the Unseelie War - so the TGS staff decided to merge them.

Not the decision I would have made, but then again, I'm not writing the seires.

In Season 3, the storys diverge again, so the two series are seperate again. (Theoretically. Gargoyles Season 3 isn't up yet)

Azrael (sp? I keep telling you it's Azriel, but will you listen? Noooooo.)> anyway, I'm glad to see you commenting on the whole why does God allow suffering thing. If I had to do it, the results wouldn't be pretty. Then again, I have serious gnostic and deist leanings, so getting theological advice from me is never likely to be a cheery experience.

General announcement> I now have a web page builder (Even if it's an evil Microsoft product). My various projects are caught up (for the moment). The Official David Goodner Web Page (which needs a better title) is on the way. Look for it on the shelves by Christmas - though lots of the content will take a little longer, particularly the Hall of SPAM (sfx- reverb. fx- thunder and lightning).

I also intend to post Changeling Seed, which I will gradually edit to put in the things I didn't have time for the first time around (because [a] I'm lazy, and [b] Sabledrake only ran 12 issues, and I had an 18 episode plot... Mostly [a]).

See ya'll later.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Friday, November 3, 2000 03:02:49 PM
IP: 198.215.20.3

Doug > that's great news about Stephanie and Keith, but I hope someone will point out to her that by April 1st, she's gonna be getting pretty big for a wedding dress ; )

Thanks for the welcomes, but now I'm off again for the weekend ... see you later!

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Friday, November 3, 2000 02:35:45 PM
IP: 14-107.009.popsite.net

Would someone please tell me why, if there is a Pendragon focused series, so many of the Gargoyles Saga season two focuses on Arthur and his gang?
wingedbeast - [wingedbeast@hotmail.com]
Peoria, Ill, USA
Friday, November 3, 2000 12:49:19 PM
IP: hermes1.bradley.edu

God Debate <man I love these things>
In response to Taleweaver: Why is faith blinding? I will admit that there are those who say that bad things only happen if you don't believe in God and then promptly misquote the scripture that ACTUALLY says: God works all things together for the good of those who love Him. It never says bad things won't happen to them, just that in the end they'll be better off than they were before. My faith doesn't tell me that everything in this life will eventually be hunkey-dorey, it tells me that after this life I get to be all powerful. I like that idea. God, through his Apostle Paul, says that we are Brothers and Equals with Christ, the Son of God. Christ and God-the-Father are one and the same and God is all powerful. If I'm equal with God's Son who IS God, then I, too, am all powerful. Thats what my faith tells me. It also tells me that people are going to have a hard time. Jesus, KNOWING what was going to happen to him VOLUNTEERED to die in what is perhaps the most painful way people have ever concieved. The first century Christians were covered in pitch, tied to stakes, and used as lamps to light Ceaser's partys. Even modern Christians are threatened and persecuted. Perhaps we use our faith to anesthize ourselves to the pain, but not to blind us.

As far as No Joy with No Pain goes, read about the Caverns of Socrates sometime. In short form it's this, if we only experiance one thing in life, it becomes our norm, as soon as we see something else, our entire world view will change, and then we'll see something else and the world view changes again. If all anyone ever has is pain, they'll never figure out that its pain. Only in experiance joy, no matter how breif, can one know what pain is.

Az
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Friday, November 3, 2000 12:27:36 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

Hey all,
returning from the Cynics' camp to rebut a few points in the God debate.

Entity> On the mysterious part, (this will be my only defense of the big G man) Speaking as an engineer, people are stupid. I've seen folks, myself as an example, handed the instructions to a complicated piece of machinery. I chuck it aside and start banging away until it works or breaks. I'd posit that even if God gave simple instructions (and how simple is it to love thy neighbor) people would find away to twist, tear, spindle or mutiliate the message. Being mysterious is sometimes the only way to get the point across, because folks are so busy trying to figure it out that they don't have time to misinterprete.

Now, that said. Let me don my agnostic mask and address this duality argument of joy and suffering. To summarize you need one to appreciate the other. You can't know joy unless you know pain. I disagree. According to that line of thought, I can't really appreciate a joke unless I've endured some pain. ("Yeh, that pun would have been fun if you just stubbed your toe) It also assumes in the course of a person's life they'll get equal measure of both. (Someone who loses a loved one will find some equally joyful moment.) I've yet to see life operate on such an even keel. Sometimes people are Fate's whipping boy. Troubles of the world get heaped on them and they will never get out from under them. Not only do bad things happen to good people, but sometimes good things never happen to good people. Not in the proportions that make things equitable. How does the joy/pain argument deal with those people? What can you possibly say to that tragedy that doesn't sound hollow?

I'm not a big fan of faith (big surprise) mainly because people use it to blind themselves. It's easier to believe that God has a mysterious plan, than to consider we are alone in this world. It easier to think that pain has a purpose and link it to joy, because the alternative - that pain just is and we dispense it liberally, is unpleasant and disheartening. There may be a God. I know there are powers greater than me, but I am unconvinced that they are working for our benefit, individually or collectively.
Taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Friday, November 3, 2000 11:15:02 AM
IP: hal5000.engineering.csupomona.edu

Yes! Demona is coming! woohoo!!! ^_^

oh, here is the link to the Kiss pumpkins I tried to put up yesterday- my personal MIS dept had to fix my link
jenna
Friday, November 3, 2000 07:57:38 AM
IP: 1cust107.tnt20.hou3.da.uu.net

Hey friends. Everyone ready for a great weekend? I know I am.

Doug- That's great that you're having a much better time at work. And Congrats to Steph on both her pregancy and up-coming marriage.

Christine- Welcome back!

Mary- I hope you feel better soon.

Sorow-Taking a trip to the emergency room is tough. Rest well.

Later.
Jaden - [jaden12@hotmail.com]
Friday, November 3, 2000 05:19:27 AM
IP: 211.216.216.91

**RP HERE- TYING IN WITH HISTORY AND STUFF DONE BY GREEN BARON**

"Sir, sir!" Geoffrey Fieger coughs, breathlessly running into Ted Turner's office and tossing a newspaper down on his desk. "Look at this! I think I've found Asil!" Turner frowns and picks up the paper. "Tabloid from Marietta, Georgia," he summarizes. "Twenty-five mutilated and torn-apart corpses of men and boys found in abandoned lot, ages ranging from 12 to 27, debris of bodies and blood spread over one mile. Deceased were all suspected of committing the rape and molestation of a 13 year old girl with mental disabilities for over twelve hours in the same town a few days before. Only witness to the attack- a drunk homeless man who was awakened by the victims' screams and claims he saw a female gargoyle with eyes glowing orange tearing the men to pieces and laughing like a maniac. Also saw a 'blue man in a white and gold uniform and a small white mouse who kept yelling nonsense' watching- the former threw up, the cops have a vomit sample that doesn't seem human-, and a black limo and a big unmarked panel truck parked nearby. Hmm, that sounds like Asil all right." "I wonder how she knew about that case and what men to kill," Fieger frowns. "She's a contract killer, remember?" Turner replies. "Probably some local cop in Marietta who knew there wasn't clear evidence to convict the men but was completely sure they were guilty called her in. So now we know she's reactivated her killer-for-hire status, she's got at least two accomplices, and they're operating out of a big unmarked panel truck. Probably still in the area, Marietta isn't that far down the road from here. Find them, Geoffrey." "Yes sir," Fieger nods. "I'm briefing the team tomorrow morning, they took a while to get assembled. Give me three days once they're sent out, and we should have Asil back in custody." "Good," Turner snaps. "Don't talk to me again until she is." Waving in dismissal, he turns his chair around and picks up a phone that has begun ringing as Fieger walks out. "Hello, Fidel," Turner says with a smile, glancing at the Caller ID display. "How are things in Havana?" "Fine, just fine," Fidel Castro answers. "The Day of the Dead celebration is in full swing, Che is reveling in it. I just wanted to let you know- Che, Raul, and I have talked it over. We of the Red Sith accept your offer of an alliance, in return for Florida once you conquer the United States." "Excellent, Fidel!" Turner grins. "I had a feeling this was about good news. So you will commit some troops to us?" "Provided I remain in power long enough for the plan to go through, yes," Castro replies, his words punctuated by a heavy cough. "Fidel?" Turner frowns. "Are you okay?" "Yes, I am fine," Castro laughs. "Cigars getting to me again, I fear. Perhaps soon I will become the kind of Red Sith Che is- but don't worry, I will be fine for a while yet. And in any case, my brother Raul has already become a full Red Sith Knight and is groomed to take over ruling Cuba when I no longer am able. I also have a new apprentice, little Elian. You know of him?" "Of course I do," Turner nods with a smile. "I encouraged the President greatly to send him back to you. "And it was good that you did, Theodore," Castro says. "He is taking to his studies quite well, becoming a very good Communist. Che is teaching him as well, he is very proud. As am I. Soon I will be taking little Elian to see the missile facility the Russians left us in 1963, the one your JFK told them to dismantle and thought they did. The one that in reality they gave over to their fellow Red Sith and we have since kept hidden. Cuba has been a nuclear power almost forty years now, and your government has never known! Hahahahahaha!" "You won't let him fire any missiles, will you?" Turner asks, grimacing. "Not yet, my friend," Castro chuckles. "Not till the time is right! Don't you worry! I must go now, attend the Day of the Dead celebration. Soon many Americans and the Capitalist Jedi will be dead thanks to our alliance, yes?" "Yes of course, Fidel," Turner replies with a solemn smile. "Good luck to you." He hangs up his phone and turns to the pile of documents on his desk.

The display changes to a dungeon somewhere in a recently-occupied mansion somewhere in New York State, where Reverend Atilla sits chained to a chair before a computer screen on which is displayed some really bad fanfiction. "That story was terrible!" he whines. "How could Elisa and Goliath do things that were so out of character? Merciful God! No more, no more!" "He's telling you what you want to hear, Queen Hilary," a black cat who is watching him from an observation room above the dungeon says to a blonde woman on whose lap he sits. "Yes, Socks, I know," Hilary Rodham Clinton laughs. "Reverend Atilla can not fool me that easily. Give him the next fanfic!" "Yes, mistress," her underling computer operator salutes, pressing some buttons. Atilla grimaces in fear, then starts reading the page as he is compelled by boredom, and frowns. "Jericho with Demona, Brooklyn with Angela, Aiden and Lex…this is a Christine Morgan story! Joy! Thank you, Ms. Clinton!" Smiling, he continues to read as Hilary's jaw falls open and she stares at the computer operator. "Who put that story in the line-up?" growls Socks. "Yeah, who?" barks the slobbering Buddy, who sits at Hilary's feet. "One of our new workers," the operator grimaces. "I think his name is Nichols, Napier…no, Nathans?" "I don't care who it was!" Hilary roars. "Have him fired at once! No severance pay!" "Yes, mistress," the operator mumbles, using his keyboard to take down the Christine story and put up a Matt Watson one, to Atilla's screams of "No!!!". Smiling once again, Socks turns to Hilary. "When do we get to end this?" he asks with a smirk. "Not that I'm not enjoying it, but I want to kill that pitiful Pope-worshipping excuse for a cat!" "Yeah!" Buddy barks in agreement, his slobber flowing like mad. "Soon, my precious ones," Hilary replies, stroking her pets with a sneer in Atilla's direction. "Very soon. As soon as the election is over, in fact. Guliani is already out thanks to the cancer I had Lady Synatia infect him with, all that remains is Lazio. And I'm leading him in the polls. This state will soon be mine!" "And then revenge for our master's death on Tuxedo Bob Dole, right?" Buddy asks. "Yes," Hilary says. "Bill may have been a bad husband who fornicated with the Shadow Brides more than me, but he deserves to be avenged for the gifts of power he did give me! That, and Tuxedo Bob Dole must die for us to take over the world! He shall die soon." "But first Atilla," Socks says with a grin. "Yes," Hilary replies, laughing as she goes back to watching Atilla moan in terror as he reads the bad fanfic before him. "Atilla first."

**(Hope this gives you some ideas as to how to get neglected plots moving, GB. Paul, I'm sorry for the joke with your name and opinion in there, considering recent events in here I thought it might be good for laughs. Won't happen again, I promise.) END THIS RP**

Hi everybody! Doug here. Posting late due to a sudden work call-in, but posting tonight just the same. <grins> Work is going much better now, for those who are wondering. We have three new people, all of whom are real good, and Warren Walker's been fired. He went AWOL again on us last week, only came back this week and now he apparently lives too far away to come on in time, so we're not bothering with him anymore. <grins> Just Steven left now, out of the bad workers. And he too may soon be gone. <crosses fingers> So that situation is finally stabilizing, all going fine and dandy. Thanks to all who gave their sympathy and prayers. Keep them coming, if you want, just in case. :)

Don't give your congratulations to me, though. Keith and Stephanie deserve them more. I have very good news about them. Kit told you about her baby, and on Tuesday night Keith showed up at the Halloween party like always, and had some very exciting revelations. He came as Zorro, not a ninja, surprising us at first, but Jammer (who dressed as a zombie this year) makes everyone who comes into his club on Halloween remove their masks at the door so he can check IDs, and that made us spot Keith and Stephanie, Kit, and I walked up to him. Upon spotting Stephanie, he let her rant about things for a solid fifteen minutes, then knelt on the ground and made an impassioned speech of his own. Turns out he loves her, has ever since their relationship, hated it when they ended it, and was glad they were still intimate friends afterwards. Then, when she got pregnant, he guessed it from her sickness and avoided the rest of us for a while so he could get time to get his thoughts in order. He had done so by that night, and Keith said that whether it was his baby or not he wanted to marry Steph and help her raise it. Shocked all of us, even more than Steph's pregnancy did, but get this- she said yes. So they're engaged now, have been so for three nights. We had two things to celebrate at that Halloween party, which was really great. <grins> They're gonna have a formal engagement party this Sunday night, Kit and Stephanie's parents are coming back into town for it, so are her and Kit's brother Ray and his wife and daughter, and Keith's family will be coming down to Austin too. Keith and Stephanie want to get married April Fool's Day, don't ask me why, but they're gonna do it, we're confident it will happen. They may argue a lot, being a chronic smartass cynic and crazed immature optimist, but deep down they are compatible and have a lot in common- both can be annoying as hell, both are self-absorbed, both are pretty smart…I don't need to go on. The good news is, the worries Kit and I had about Stephanie being able to raise the kid or not are over now. Keith's able to help her, and he really wants to do so. We hope the kid really is Keith's (he's sure it is but we're still not completely sure and can't be till it's born), and wish them all the best. I hope all of you do too. Thanks to all who gave Kit their encouragement on the situation, and gave Stephanie their congrats and sympathies. Glad to have you all as friends even more now. :)

Gasper: $ RP reminder once again- your enmity is with Four, not Seven. Hope you remember next time. Lay off the crack. <grins> $ I agree with you about the Patriot and will be replaying Chrono Cross for the same reason you are very soon. (Just the real Time Devourer is left of the bosses, hope it's not too hard.) I agree with you about FF4 being a great game, I too enjoyed it. Cecil and Rosa rank very high on my list of favorite hero/heroine teams (Goliath & Elisa, Squall & Rinoa, Gabe Logan & Lian Xiang, Jesse & Tulip, John & Sandy Clark, and Lex & Aiden are also on the list, if anyone cares). Liked Kain and Edge as characters also, and Zeromus. The only bad thing about the game was the lack of much choice to the party makeup throughout, would have liked to use Yang and Fusowa more. <sigh>

Winterwolf: Well, good luck with your job wherever you end up. That programmer you mentioned sounds more like Steven Walker than Warren. Warren was good at what he did when he showed up, but he thought he could skip out on us whenever he wanted to and we wouldn't care. He was wrong. Steven's even worse- he's been retrained four times and still isn't doing a good job. Comes in on time but doesn't patrol nearly as much as he should, sometimes camps out in his car when on duty, has a tendency to leave the property before he's supposed to often without warning, sits around and assumes nothing will go wrong (and it does!), I don't need to continue. We're getting rid of the guy soon, I continue to wish we'd done it a long time ago. Am keeping my fingers crossed. :( Anyway, you have my sympathies and understanding on that programmer, hope she soon gets what she deserves. Also glad that we seem to work about the same average amount of hours per week, and thanks for the mom-related humor. :)

Kyryn: Thanks for your condolences to Granddaddy, I'll send them to him soon. Maybe he knows Okami's aunt, I'll ask if you tell me her name. He and Grandmother know a lot of people in Beaumont, and their friend Betty Nielus knows even more. You're welcome on the crown condolences, hope the permanent one can be put on soon.

Coyote: Congrats on having your hand healing nicely, good to have prayers answered. And to know a friend is doing alright. :) Hope it is soon completely well again, thanks for keeping us up to date.

Christine: Welcome back! Thanks for sticking around, we're very glad to have you here. You too, Paul, opinions and all. Hope you can come back soon. Glad you're back, Christine, I understood why you skipped out but am SO glad it was temporary. :) Congrats on finishing your latest novel's first draft, hope it came out the way you wanted. I look forward to reading it someday, and more of your fanfic too, when it hopefully soon comes out. :)

Azarah: I think I forgot to say so last week, but welcome to the room! You make a fine addition to this place, with very good style in your expression of opinions. You're quite logical and wise, and we can always use more of that here. :) I agree with you on Shakespeare, his work has withstood the test of time and done it admirably. On your questions about God, well, I've never really considered why he made the world the way he did. I concentrate more on dealing with the way the world is than pondering why it's so, generally. The Preacher comics give a great explanation for things, though (and contain many other great story elements besides, check them out if you can!). I agree with GXB and Taleweaver a lot about the situation and about religion in general, though I am Christian, not atheist. The questions you pose about God are definitely difficult ones, and I hope you find an answer someday, whatever works. On your grief, well, a lot of people (especially Niamhgold, GXB, Azrael, Coyote, Kaioto, and Green Baron; the latter two also gave very good comments about religion IMO) have already said things to you about it that express what I feel and do so better than I ever could in words, so I'll just say I share it too and leave it at that. My own mother used to be someone I hated too, she also confused me a lot, especially after she became officially epileptic. But now that I'm grown-up, it's easy for me to realize how much I owe to her, and value having her in my life because of the gifts she passed down. My dad and stepfather too. I know I'm gonna be as as sad as you are about your parents when mine are gone. You seem to have gotten over losing them pretty much, judging by your latest post, I hope it stays that way. If you need friends, just come in here. :)

DPH: I can't figure that out about tobacco farmers either. Nor about criminals, dishonest losers, and other people who make their living doing others harm or inconvience. But they do seem to sleep well. <sighs> My sympathies on your problems with your dad, hope they are resolved soon or at least ease up. If you can, I recommend you move away from the guy if he's really that bad. But you know the situation better than I. Just do what's best, hope you can. <pat of encouragement>

Ed: You're welcome. Hope you'll get the name right from now on. :)

Lynati: Congrats on beating the cold. I don't know if I'll be attending next year's Gathering yet, Kit and I are committed to getting a house above all else with our next big deposits, but we'll see. If we do come, I look forward to meeting you and would definitely not mind getting to read your stories. <grin> Oh, and don't think your ideas are unoriginal or be mad about it. Great minds very often think alike. :)

GXB: Sorry to hear your life isn't going so well lately. I hope things improve soon and will be continuing to send you my prayers. Thanks for letting us know of the troubles so I could do so, hope I'm not the only one. Good luck and hang in there, friend.

Warpmind: Happy Belated 21st Birthday! Kit did mean hers and mine when she talked about enjoying 21st birthdays. We enjoyed ours quite a bit. Glad that you did also. Hope you can keep up the great joke- and personality-filled posts. And good luck with your teeth.

SOROW: Congrats to your football team on the Homecoming win, glad the dance went great for you too. Hope you get over the strep throat soon, sorry to hear about it. I'll be praying till you get well. <looks for Sli Sludge, finds him, and fires several missiles that explode and splatter him all over the floor> That will probably help.

**PENDRAGON SPOILERS**
Enjoyed Ripper, though it did get a bit cliched at times. Arthur, Merlin, and Mary's dreams had some very surprising and well-written developments in them, liked what was done with Madoc and Mordred most. Especially the Nicholas II scene, maybe I should change Mackovic's origin if I ever get back to my fanfic. :) The bad guy of the episode was neat too, his character wasn't that interesting but he did have a very cool power. Also enjoyed the development on Leba and Braddock, and the action sequences. The dialogue was also great. Wish there had been illustrations, but that's a small quip. Overall, 9/10. Keep up the good work, TGS Staff, I'm looking forward to the two-parter that's coming up soon to end this season. Hopefully it will develop and tie up many threads and leave plenty dangling also- I agree with Ed that Pendragon deserves a fourth season. Hope to enjoy it a lot next week.
**SPOILERS OVER **

Happy All Souls', All Saints', Halloween, Samhain, and Day of the Dead to everyone! Hope you all enjoyed the parties and celebrations if you went to some. Tell stories if you want. :) My condolences to those who didn't get to enjoy the holidays, hope you can get some time off to enjoy them or at least rest sooner or later. <grins> Kit and I went to a Halloween party with a lot of dancing and a costume contest that Tricia won a prize in with her elaborate pirate queen outfit. I was Wesley, Kit was Faith, and we got a few stares and comments, and lots of candy, though no prizes. <shrugs> The best event of the party I detailed above.

SJ: I agree with you 100% on faith and religion. Tolerance too. And on Wiccan girls. 90% of those I've met are definitely hot, and as for the other ten, they come quite close to it. <grins> Thanks for the entertainment info, the Star Wars rumors especially (hope they're false!), and may you soon get well.

Mary: Congrats on the nice grades, you should be very proud of yourself. :) Good luck pulling up the not-so-good one. Sorry you didn't get to go to that festival, hope you can attend one sooner or later. Be sure and tell us all about it when you do, ok? :) Sorry about the twisted ankle too, hope it soon heals.

Entity: <shrugs> I have no idea what's wrong with George W. Bush exactly. Lots of things probably, including that he's neglecting his current job as Texas governor in the race for President, but I didn't come in here tonight to discuss politics. I'll say this though- Dave probably had that bit rigged. Talk show hosts like him, Jay Leno, and Conan do stuff like it all the time, if they can get their guests to agree. The producer probably knew what was coming and condoned it. In fact, I'm sure they did. :(

Patrick: Thanks for the G2001 info. It sounds like the next Gathering will be a very cool and exciting event, Kit and I really hope we can make it. We'll try our best.

<moment of silence for Steve Allen> I too hate that he supported censorship, but some people do enough good in their lives you can ignore the bad easily. IMO, he was definitely one of them. :)

Lady Corax: Good bit from you on religion also, thanks for it. I agree with many points. Best of luck on that test in the morning, Kit and I will be praying you do well.

And now I've reached the top of the CR. I'm feeling real tired and I'm done, so I'll be going now. You all have a good rest tonight, and a good weekend. Kit and I may or may not be seeing Charlie's Angels, there aren't any other good-looking movies coming out. We're not sure, though, since we don't really like the star actresses in the film, just the scriptwriter. But if he did the same kind of great job he did on Go, Blue Streak, and other entertaining films, we can probably tolerate him. I'd still rather watch Chuckie's Devils than Charlie's Angels though, cute chicks or no. (Chuckie's Devils are a creativity demon of mine- the evil male counterparts to Charlie's Angels. Three big ugly men who do lots of crazy action and are commanded by the whims of the killer doll from the Child's Play movies.) Will have a review of the film next week if we see it. See you all again then, or sooner if I feel the need to respond to something and have time (hope so, I like coming in here! :). Later.

**RESUME RP ACTION, WITH THE RAVENS**

As the screen comes on again, viewers can see Stephanie jumping and tumbling around the roller coaster and rides of the Mall of America's Camp Snoopy amusement park, being pursued by the heavily sweating producers and directors of the bad Highlander sequels. One of the directors follows her into the Tilt-a-Whirl, and Stephanie smiles as he does so, for she has rigged it to start up and not engaged the safety restraints. Being immortal, she survives the brutal whipping-around and fall that follows, but the director does not. She kills off the rest of the directors in similar fashion, with other rides she quickly rigs to go off once they have passengers on board using knowledge she picked up from her summer working at a carnival long ago. Surviving every lethal result of the rigged rides, Kit's sisters then spots the Highlander sequels' producers looking around for her and frowning as they continue hearing the directors' dying screams. "Oh boys!" Stephanie calls to them, and they turn to see her standing in the entrance to the funhouse. "There!" one shouts, and they all chase after her into the funhouse waving their weapons. Out of shape as they are, Stephanie easily outruns and outdistances them through the obstacle course inside and when the producers emerge from the funhouse they find her waiting for them with a smile and they are too tired to fight. "Miss, please!" one begs for his life. "We can make your life very good! How'd you like the love interest role in the next Highlander film? We won't kill you if you want that, don't worry!" Stephanie looks as if she's contemplating the offer, then shakes her head and walks over and slits his throat. "Augh!" the producer screams. "Okay, then how about the villain role?" another producer asks Stephanie, unfazed. "We haven't done a female villain yet, they get all the fun. What do you say?" "No!" Stephanie snaps, cutting him down. "Then how about the starring role?" a third one asks, the others grimacing. "Adrian and Chris don't want to do these movies anymore, you can. You like Highlander!" "Yes, I like Highlander," Stephanie replies with a grin. "I just hate what all of you have done to it. I would rather die than have any part in another film made by you!" "But…" the remaining producers gape, and are then silenced as Stephanie moves in and delivers a whirlwind of killer slashes and thrusts. Somebody claps as she turns away with a sigh and despairs about how she'll never get the flying blood out of her clothing. "Bravo!" Jacob Kell applauds. "It has been a long time since I have faced an opponent with such skill and personality! Care to try me on now?" "Sure," Stephanie replies, getting into a fighting stance as Kell steps forward with drawn blade, the tread of his heavy cross-emblazoned boots echoing on the ground. Inside she is quaking in fear because she knows Kell's reputation, but she hides this well. Around the mall, the footfalls of other jerks make lots of noise as they rush up the stairs of Lego-Land toward the Ravens. Gunfire and spell blasts also echo from the battle above them, and sirens from outside. Barks from his hellhound adding to the cacophony, Pastor John does not notice the latter. Outside the mall, however, Bishop Galante has, and grimacing, he gets ready to implement his just-in-case plan as the first police vehicle crests a nearby hill.

Meanwhile, back inside the Mall, Orion has come to a stop inside the central hall of Underwater Adventures and is looking around worriedly, his mace out and his features confused. Briefly the display flashes back to when Lathrop's stinking cloud went off in the food court, and shows Geburah and Tanith crashing through the skylight and immediately landing in it. Both of them and Orion are overcome with coughing and confusion, and Orion becomes disoriented and separated from his fellow Ravens, running off in a different direction from them. Recovering from the stink just in time, Geburah and the growling Tanith follow. Now Orion has stopped in the aquarium, sensing what is behind him as he looks at a shark floating in a tank nearby. Spinning around, he stands ready as Geburah steps forward, snapping his barbed whip with a laugh. "You," Orion whispers. "The cornugon who took Tanith. What are you doing here?" "What?" Geburah laughs, flicking his whip in the air. "I can't visit an old friend?" "We aren't friends," Orion replies solemnly. "We were once, though," Geburah chuckles. "You were once my only outlet for guilt, cleric. The one person who I thought I could talk to and not fear anger or retribution. Until you betrayed me, that was." As the devil speaks, his reptilian features change to human ones and Orion gasps. "Jeb Richards! So you became a devil when you went to Hell!" "Yes," Geburah growls, his features changing back to devil. "I was sufficiently evil, Satan deemed. But I didn't want to be there, cleric! You sent me! You refused to absolve me, you betrayed me even! You sinned!" "Yes, I sinned," Orion nods. "I could not forgive the terrible crimes you detailed to me in confession, nor could I absolve you for them. I did not think you seemed ready to repent, that you were just coming to me for indulgence. Perhaps I was wrong, or maybe I was not." Geburah says nothing, only glaring at Orion with Hell's fury in his eyes. The cleric stares back, unmoved. Finally the cornugon sighs and makes a gesture. "It does not matter," he declares. "I will have my revenge on you at long last. You shall die, in the most painful way possible, emotionally as well as physically." "What do you mean?" Orion asks. "Look behind you," Geburah laughs, and Orion does so, gasping as Tanith steps out of the shadows, grinning fangily at him and licking the blade of her ready sword. "Tanith!" he gasps. "No, it can't be…you…" "You abandoned me, cleric," Tanith says, glaring daggers at him. "You let me rot in hell. Now look what I have become. Prepare to feel the full consequences of your sins!" "No…." Orion gasps again, as the laughing Geburah settles down to watch the insane Tanith as she roars in rage and leaps to the attack.

**BATTLE CONTINUES NEXT TIME, END RP AND POST**
Doug - [DougElder21@yahoo.com]
Friday, November 3, 2000 03:12:03 AM
IP: pool-63.52.167.63.dlls.grid.net

**King Snarf enter**

Steve Allen's dead? Wow. Hadn't heard that. While I didn't agree with his views, I did think he was quite the entertainer who didn't mind poking fun at himself, like he did on the Simpsons. My deepest sympathies go out to his loved ones.

Anyway, I'm about halfway through the second season of TGS/Pendragon, and I was curious about something. Could someone please summarize for me what (if anything) has been done with the Nokkar/ Alien Invasion angle (without spoiling *too* much; spoil me a little bit please). I'm really interested in UFO/ Conspiracy lore, and wouldn't mind if some of that paranoid storytelling style was incorporated into TGS.

Well, Election Day's almost a week off. I for one am not even going to waste my time voting. I get sick of everyone saying "Your vote DOES matter," and "It's a civic duty". I say if everyone follows my example and DOESN'T vote, the politicians might wise up and realize the system is totally $&#!ed up (and let's face it, it is).

Whoa. I usually don't go off on such a tirade. If I offend anyone, I'm sorry, though I think anything that provokes you to think through and defend your believes isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Farewell for now!
Matt "KS" Maybray - [reginald_q_bumbershoot@hotmail.com]
Drexel Hill, PA, USA
Friday, November 3, 2000 02:37:47 AM
IP: a030-1392.phl2.splitrock.net

**Winterwolf enters**

Hi. I've been busy but though I'd post and keep in touch the only time I can. In the middle of the night! ;)

Kyryn> Thanks! **gives you a sack of candy** Well since friends share have a sack of candy! ^_^

Niamhgold> Well said! Thank you for sharing so much with us! Best wishes on getting things turned around. **Huggles**

Mary> Ouchie on the ankle.

Christine> <Bounces> Welcome Back! ^_^

WinterWitch> So was it a cold or the flu? Feel better!

DPH> You Dad locked you out? **shakes his head** :(

Lynati> The musical overtones sound really interesting. I imagine I'd have to read it to understand. If only I had the time!

SOROW> <Halloween in the emergency room> O.O strep throat **Hugz** Get well soon! :(

Marina Sirtis> Woo Hoo! Now Aaron won't be the only one that's met her! ^_^

Azarah> <X files starts this Sunday.. is that true?????> Yeah, it's true the new season starts this Sunday November 5.

******BFTS - RP******

At the nights end the spell is complete moving the curse from Equus to Uriel then from Uriel into a talisman. Equus laughs, "I'm free! I could not have done this without your assistance Uriel, take this charm as a token of my thanks. Once you learn to tap the power it will grant you some elemental magic based on your aura. Uriel, please tell DPH I said hello. I must attend to other matters so feel free to use the ethereal chamber to travel wherever you please." Immediately after giving the charm to Uriel a burst of crimson flashes then implodes where Equus once stood.

Winterwolf says, "I think he likes you. He won't return here. Shall we go?"

Uriel nods and says, "I wanted to speak with him but I suppose we should leave."

******END BFTS - RP******

I need to sleep. Good night everybody!

**Winterwolf leaves**

Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Friday, November 3, 2000 02:11:55 AM
IP: 206.15.120.112

**dashes back in real quick**

SJ> No, it's not wrong...I was feeling something along the same lines...those pro-censorship weirdos annoy me. Although it is sad that a comedian has passed on, and I didn't wish it upon him, but I don't really feel like I'll miss him. God, I sound heartless now, don't I? I don't mean to...

Sorry 'bout that! **dashes back out**
Lady Corax
Thursday, November 2, 2000 11:58:06 PM
IP: reslife216-176.rescomp.arizona.edu

Just a quickie again...real post someday...

James Birdsong> Yep, Steve Allen's passed on. Kinda sad. :(

GB> Warren Buffett, huh? He's pretty cool...made me think that Alan Greenspan would probably be up somewhere high on my list, just because I'd love to chat with him someday just to say I did...

SOROW> My sympathies! Strep throat is dumb. I hope you're feeling better, and if you ever need to talk or vent or anything, feel free to write to me or IM me or anything!

Azreah> Did I spell that right? I apologize if I didn't. Anyway, if you ever need someone to talk to or just to listen, I'm here for ya, buddy. Anytime, feel free to drop me a line or anything. :)

God debate> Just gotta throw in my quick 2 cents on this one...I heard a quote once that went something like, "God, please save me from your followers." I have to say that it's sad but too often true that the people who say they are die-hard Christians and such are some of the most twisted people I know, basically because they don't believe that God has any room for diversity. *They* are 'His chosen people,' and anyone else is beneath them and going to Hell. I happen to think that we're all in this together, and just because one group calls God by a different name, or calls to many different names, that doesn't make them evil or wrong. But a lot of people can't accept that. I'm very glad, though, that this CR isn't like that...people have room for tons of different views and opinions, and I love it! Now, as for God allowing bad things to happen...well, I've wondered about this myself. And frankly, I don't have an answer. I have no idea how good can come out of some of the things that go on in the world. But I guess He does, and so I'm leavin' it up to Him to answer someday. Like Garth Brooks once said, "I guess the Lord knows what he's doing after all..."

Oh, gee...I've gotta run...I just remembered I have a test tomorrow morning...that I haven't studied for yet...goodness, this is what happens when you spend all afternoon just crashing at a friend's house! :) Hope I didn't offend anyone with my take on the debate...that wasn't my intention!

God bless you guys, and rock on!
Lady Corax
Thursday, November 2, 2000 11:53:45 PM
IP: reslife216-176.rescomp.arizona.edu

*enters, wearing a hat rather self-conciously...*
Hi guys... how's it been going?? *glances over posts* That good, eh? but OOO I started a debate... I feel cool :)

Things are a little better here.. but, should I ever meet this God dude, I will still take my little teeny steel toed boots and kick him in his cosmic bum.

******* GOD RP****** (am I allowed to do this??? oh well..)
Azarah flies to the mountains in BC, visiting the ashes of her mother's grave. Alighting near the peak, she places a golden crane on the stones. Suddenly, God's voice echoes down from the sky, "Azarah" it says, "Azarah, what is the matter?" But seeing as how Azarah has recently converted to atheism, she doesn't hear the voice, or at least ignores it's words.
The voice speaks again "Azarah, what is wrong???" This time, Azarah acknowledges the voice, and says, "geez, aren't you already supposed to know that?? Where have _you_been???"
God replies "Yes, well... I've been getting a little rusty with my godly powers lately so you'll just have to tell me everything that's been going on..." Azarah denies, saying God has to learn to do things for Himself, instead or relying on humans to do his dirty work. She says instead, "Look, why don't you go and sit in the corner and when you figure out what you've done wrong, then you can come back and apologize and put things right."
God is a little perturbed but, seeing as how the Godly powers have become so rusty, there isn't much else to be done. God pouts and heads out to a corner of the universe to contemplate all the ills of the divinely created world and is not heard from for some time.
Meanwhile, Azarah covers her naked head with her first set of wings and streaches her second set of wings for flight, trying to find some peace.
She seeks out Coyote the Bando, and kisses his injured hand. She finds SOROW and gives a GINORMEROUS hug. She cartwheels through the CR, giving out hugs and thanks for all the human help she has received because, really, that's all there can be for certain. She even finds Paul and kisses his forehead... just because..
Then she picks up her white stick and taps it until she finds the door.

Far off, in a deep corner of the universe, tucked away where no one can see, God has forgotten what he was supposed to be thinking about and is playing chess with the God from the universe next door...
******END QUASI GOD RP THINGIE******

I went a little nuts yesterday. My head had a run in with a Swiss army knife and some razor blades and... well... I have no hair... at all...
I told my dad later and he said "you know what?? you're an idiot, but I still love you anyway.."
But it seems to have done something good, in the end. I played the piano for an hour and a half, and realized I can still play Beethoven Pathetique sonata from memory, even though it's been a good nine months :) (and, if I may be so bold, I still play it better than the other guy on our wing who thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread, and the only thing he has to do is hit the piano really hard and it will sound like Beethoven..)
*****TOTALLY OFF TOPIC*****
Hey, someone told me the X files starts this Sunday.. is that true?????
*****END TOTALLY OFF TOPIC******

A while ago I posted Buffy spoilers and someone asked if they were real... They were from Fox TV so... I guess they are as real as they come but that doesn't make them set in stone so... taste that yummy salt...
:)
Lynati>>OOO OOO send me your STUFF!!!! I do pictures!!!:)

Humm... that's all I can think of for now..
Thank you all so very much for all your help, you are wonderful :*)

Love
Azarah - [sanchinwalker@hotmail.com]
Somewhere in the Great White North
Thursday, November 2, 2000 11:46:46 PM
IP: dynrez216-32168.dhr.reznet.uwo.ca

Is it wrong for me to NOT miss Steve Allen? I mean, I feel sorry for his family and all. And I didn't necessarily wish him dead.

BUT, he was the friggin' head of the PTC, the Parent's Television Council, a group so pro-censorship against the entertainment industry that they rival Joe Lieberman. And while I've never really wished any of them dead, I've thought numerous times that the world would be a better place without them censoring everything "for our own protection".
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Thursday, November 2, 2000 11:46:43 PM
IP: cache-2.spg.va.webcache.rcn.net

Robby> He'd dead?
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Thursday, November 2, 2000 11:25:54 PM
IP: adsl-63-207-131-109.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net

A moment of silence for the late Steve Allen, 1921-2000. Radio personality, T.V. talk show pioneer, variety show host, author, comedian, social commentator, jazz advocate, media critic, composer, musician, you would think he was ten different people. Steve will be missed.

Robby
Thursday, November 2, 2000 10:07:52 PM
IP: spider-wd012.proxy.aol.com

The Fifth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles
The Gathering 2001: City of Angels
June 22-25, 2001 -- Los Angeles, CA

UPDATES!

The staff of The Gathering 2001 is pleased and excited to announce the addition of SIX NEW GUESTS. We're most excited because the list of new additions starts with the voice of Demona herself, MARINA SIRTIS! Also well known for her role as Counselor Deanna Troi in the "Star Trek: The Next Generation" television series and films, Ms. Sirtis joins the voice of Lexington, Thom Adcox-Hernandez, on the sure to be growing list of "Gargoyles" voice actors and actresses who will be in attendance at The Gathering 2001.

But wait, that's not all! We also have five new names joining our guest roster from the "Gargoyles" staff and production crew: Lisa Salamone, Jamie Thomason, Karen Peterson, Dave Schwartz, and Julie Morgavi. Many said it couldn't be done when we promised at least 20 guests - more than every previous Gathering combined - but our complete list is now up to 21! And even more are sure to be added in the future!

For the complete guest list and most recent info, visit:
http://gathering.gargoyles-fans.org/guests.htm

With such a terrific guest list and so many exciting events planned, it's a sure bet that The Gathering 2001 is going to be THE place to be for "Gargoyles" fans next June. Our goal is to have 500 people or more in attendance at what will be the BIGGEST and BEST Gathering yet, and only YOU can make it happen. If you have already registered and purchased your membership, we thank you! But if you haven't, please don't wait too much longer! The early-bird membership rate of $30.00 for adults ($15.00 for children ages 10 to 14) will only last until December 31, 2000! Don't lose out on what could be as much as a 50% discount! The rate goes up to $40.00 for adults ($20.00 for children) as of January 1, 2001, and the adult membership rate at the door will $60.00.

And while you're signing up for your membership, don't forget to reserve a place at the Gala Awards Banquet! Many of our special guests - including Marina Sirtis, Thom Adcox-Hernandez, and Greg Weisman - are scheduled to be in attendance at this special event, and we hope to see YOU there, as well. Tickets are only $60.00 per person and they are going fast! Seating is limited, so don't delay!

For more information about the convention, visit us on the web at:
http://gathering.gargoyles-fans.org/

Or contact us by e-mail at gathering2001@art-chicks.com

We hope to see YOU in Los Angeles next June!
Patrick Toman, Vice Convention Chair - [gathering2001@art-chicks.com]
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Thursday, November 2, 2000 09:35:09 PM
IP: ac8e53b0.ipt.aol.com

Hi guys. I'm so sorry I haven't been able to get in here very much, but I just spent Halloween in the emergency room. I have a nasty case of strep throat and I've been out of school and resting. Things are pretty stressful and all, so I thought I'd give a holler (or in my case a pitiful cough). I'll see you all soon.
SOROW
Thursday, November 2, 2000 09:16:32 PM
IP: a020-0543.dll2.splitrock.net

*Lynati Enters*

Warpmind: *Nrrr?* what's #callahan's? I have been a Callahan fan (Callahanian?) for quite some time now...but I never go out. Not in the real world, not much in the computer one, either. So I don't see much. But give me an address and I'll go look it up. :)

Christine: Thanks for the story...I reaallly liked it! The puns were atrocious (read "brilliant") though. Especially the end one. phwaaa!
When I get around to writing (the episode), I'll be sure to let you see it first, as per your request. And I'll be shot before I let someone deserving of acknowledgement slip by my list of Credits. Shoot me if this proves wrong.

Although, I don't know when I'll be able to post my stories for public consumption. I'm kind of funny about letting people see them; I mean, I want people to read them, but at the same time...
I'd be fine with letting anyone HERE read them.
Or maybe I'm just worrying about getting sued. My stories are very music driven (I'm not a musician, but I do live out of my walkman) and in order for the certain scenes to make sense, I have to include the lyrics.(If you read my stuff, you'll see what I mean.) Songs are often used as a means of communication by characters from (my dimension), a way of passing messages, and of saying how you feel by using other peoples words so that you don't feel as vulnerable when baring your soul. Even though Every song is properly attributed to it's (artist), I'm still worried I could get in trouble for it. And frankly, simply removing the music aspect isn't an option.

Would it be logical to simply ask who wants to read my writing, then email it to them? (A story a week or something, the way that TGS does?)
IS anyone here actually interested?

Feedback, please.

*Lynati trots off*

Lynati
Thursday, November 2, 2000 07:44:54 PM
IP: 208.12.249.253

I love Escaflowne it is so cool. I can't belive they took it
of air. I am so mad gr gr gr gr gr gr gr gr. How could fox
take escaflowne of air? I didn't even get to see all the
episodes.
amanda - [dottydoo2@aol.com]
corning, new york, usa
Thursday, November 2, 2000 07:04:05 PM
IP: bgm-24-94-50-91.stny.rr.com

I love Escaflowne it is so cool. I can't belive they took it
of air. I am so mad gr gr gr gr gr gr gr gr. How could fox
take escaflowne of air? I didn't even get to see all the
episodes.
amanda - [dottydoo2@aol.com]
corning, new yord, usa
Thursday, November 2, 2000 07:03:54 PM
IP: bgm-24-94-50-91.stny.rr.com

**GOD DEBATE**
I wish I could sit this debate out, but since I am a conservative SBC, I can not.

Define theology and you will discover science has created its own theology about the origins of the universe and of life.

What is a god? Something you worship. Everyone has something that they worship one way or another. Workaholics worship greed and money.

Personal suffering: I have finally accepted the big answer 'just because'. It is a part of a brilliant master plan to accomplish his will.

However, I have a problem with some people who claim to be speaking for my God. I will not mention names.
**END GOD DEBATE**

**CURRENT PROBLEMS**
My dad put a lock on both sides of the door leading to the computer room without telling me. There is going to be a big fight between him and me coming up soon. I have told him repeatedly about my back problems limiting me but he does not understand at all.

It is all about him controlling my life instead of letting me make my own decisions. He thinks I can sit down and pick up stuff without getting any back pain. I do not know what his problem is at all except he does not understand computers. I may resort to sending BFTS RP posts to others to time-delay post since I may not have the time to post everyday.
**END CURRENT SITUATION**

I am too upset and time-conscious to make a BFTS RP post today.
DPH - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
AR, USA
Thursday, November 2, 2000 05:42:38 PM
IP: max1-37.cwy.cei.net

Azarah: (I wish I had your email to send this, rather than dropping it in the room. I’m sorry if it makes you feel awkward.)

I’m very sorry for your loss. A human being’s lot is never easy.

I understand your frustrations with people trying to push your father into all these parties and other situations. It is distasteful in an extreme, but I’ve known some whom were taught to behave this way … they feel is supposed to help your father recover from his loss. Perhaps it is good that they at least express some concern over your father, even if they pick poor ways of doing so. In my life, I’ve always felt it far worse for no one to try at anything at all, for fear of doing the wrong thing.

For the suffering in the world, coping with it is part of being human, of growing as a human being. We live in a world where things sometimes go wrong, where chance plays a cruel role. We also have far more chance to change that world than any other animal. It is part of being human to make choices with consequences, for good or ill. To take away these aspects of human life is to limit the human experience and retard our growth as individuals and as a race.

It may be a poor excuse for the heart, but the expectation of a perfect world will always lead to more disappointment as surely as hope for a better world leads to change.

God can’t really change the fundamental way our world works without changing what it is to be human. Perhaps that throws a colossal monkey-wrench into our limited understanding of Omnipotence, but we may need to accept the image of a God that simply can not do certain things. Whether this is because of a lack of power, or a matter of principle, it is not mine to tell you.

I could recommend the book "What Bad Things Happen to Good People" by the Rabbi Harold Kushner. He’s a man who can relate to you with far more presence and eloquence than I. Please, I urge you to read his book.

Of hope and despair, I can tell you this: humans as a race are blessed with great power. We do not have to always yield to our environments like other animals. We can organize. We can use opposable thumbs and tools. We can build farms, change the courses of rivers, and walk on the moon.

You may ask why people suffer, but I ask "why do people suffer needlessly?"

Needlessly … in a country with the worlds largest food reserves, children starve. In a world of over 6 billion human beings, so many of us feel alone. In a time where the world has with more wealth and power than any other time in history, I walk to my home and pass those who have no place to give such a name.

God gave ~ Us ~ the power to right these ills. We could eliminate so much of this suffering …

And we choose not to.

Sometimes we choose to let the government or someone else carry out charity or compassion because we can’t be bothered to give up any of our precious time.

Sometimes we get so angry and jaded, we decide that we should exploit the inequity of the world just because "everyone else is doing it."

Sometimes we fear to move to change because it is safer or easier to be just another faceless body in a crowd.

Sometimes, we are bitten by despair so deep, we shut our hearts away because it hurts to much to care.

God only knows, I’ve fallen into all these traps in my lifetime, and I have no doubt that, to my shame, I shall fall into them again.

Yet, in the face of all this, we still have the power to bring light into this world. Each human being, no matter how meek, small, or downtrodden carries to capacity to show compassion, to experience love, and to bring hope to others. That ember buried in the hearts of every person can set fire, can inspire others, and carry light against the darkness of our own souls’ creations. Carry those lights before you, as one, and the world will be set afire, reformed in a crucible, not of pain and suffering, but of hope, sacrifice, and love.

Until that day, we can live to keep the fires burning. Most of our advancements in medicine and quality of life would never have happened without hope. There will never be a cure for AIDS or cancer if we don’t preserve hope. It is a precious, powerful thing. We can work to forge anew what little of the world we can lay our hands on. We can be guardians of hope, examples of peace, and messengers of love and compassion. We can save each other from some of the sorrows of the world. I have found that, in so doing, we can save ourselves as well.

My only advice for a course of action is to serve. Make a difference in some else’s life with no expectations other than to give your best to help. See if it doesn’t make the darkness around you a little less oppressive.

It may not be glorious or radically powerful, you may see what you hold dear losing ground for every day of you life, but as long as you do not give up, your cause is not lost.

And no matter how cold and dark the shadows may make things seem … you are never alone in your struggle.

I pray for you.

Again, read "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner. It may not have all the answers you seek, but it may offer you something you need.

There is a good short blurb on Rabbi Kushner’s works at a link on my name.

I’m still on AOL IM pretty regularly if people want to talk. Screen name "Kaioto" same as always. I’m not the best listener in the world, and sometimes I’m mired in rat-race work, but I’d be ashamed if I couldn’t at least offer a shoulder to cry on in my free hours.

I hope the graces of time and love and give your heart peace.

Toku Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Thursday, November 2, 2000 05:42:19 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Hey, all.
After giving myself several days away from the room, time to cool down and all, I've returned. Thanks to those who sent their well-wishes ... I realized that I had far too many friends in here to stop coming by. I'd like to apologize for my overreaction ... I've been very stressed with the current book I've been working on. But now the first draft of "The Gifted" is complete, 130,000 words and nary a sex scene in the entire thing, and I'm going to not even think about it for at least another week before going back to read it and see if it's any good. We're off to the Bavarian-themed village of Leavenworth this weekend, too, where I will relax and eat too many goodies from the candy shoppes and bakeries (and try not to come down with a bronchial thing that'll last until April, which is what happened last year when we did this).

In the meantime, it's good to be back, and I have done a big update of the MageLore site (click or go to http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/magelore_index.html and there's still more on the way). Also look for the new (but skimpy this time, alas!) issue of Sabledrake on Monday.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Thursday, November 2, 2000 04:50:44 PM
IP: 15-151.009.popsite.net

*Warpmind enters, yawning.*
Aw, geesh... late in the evening... :| MY evening, mind you - I'm operating at an hour before Greenwhich...

Well, I heard there's been Halloweeners running around the more urban areas this year... unfortunately, the least appealing aspects of the "Trick-Or-Treat"ing seems to have been quite present... peoples' houses being egged, just because they weren't even THERE when the trick-or-treaters arrived. Sheesh. One should have thought that at least they'd be respectful enough to ensure that the owner of the house was *present* to deny them candy, before they started "tricking". And they could damn well be more creative... *Sigh*

Mary: Whoo! Have fun at the festival! By the way... about Wiccna sex magic... I read something about much of that kind was "binding spells" of various kinds; does this sound right? For sure, being "bound" by such spells sounds a bit... interesting. ;)

Lynati: Whoah! You sure you haven't visited us at #callahans yet? If not, you should. :) (IRC Undernet)

Gside: And may your hemorrhoids disappear without surgery. :) (No, wait, that was the traditional dwarven greeting from Bored of the Rings... hmmm...) ];)

On the subject of God... sorry, guys, I may offend some of you here (although with the hardy bunch here, I kinda doubt it): God exists. He allows pain and suffering in this world. This is because He works in mysterious ways. Or, in layman's terms, this is because He's a sadistic, moody sonofabitch who doesn't have to answer to anybody. (Though, I'm tempted to say that becoming a father calmed him down quite a bit...) Now, it says that God created Man in His image - some suggest that this means in his *spiritual* image, meaning that Man is given an emotional and mental specter akin to that of God, while the physique may be vastly different. This theory suggests that Man, with every single little flaw, is the lucky party. God, being all that Man is, and more, should logically be equipped with every mental flaw in he book, and probably a humongous pile of'em that aren't even discovered yet. There's no Devil, it's just the bigwig upstairs in a rotten mood. Sure, I believe in God. Sure, I believe He put us here for a Purpose. But do I believe him to have been at his full faculties at the time? *Glances around.* Not a chance... Still, my biggest problem isn't with God, but His fanclubs... God may be a quirky old geezer with more than His fair share of mental disturbances, but he's *not* zealous. At least not since his son helped him get something of a perspective on things. ];)

For that matter, here's some food for thought... Stupidity is worse than Evil. After all, Evil takes a break on occasion...

With those small sparks of wisdom (and probably unwanted insight into what is called my mind), I leave you. G'night.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@usa.net]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Thursday, November 2, 2000 04:42:15 PM
IP: mp-219-113.daxnet.no

*looks at the God debate* Eh, why not?

My answer to the question "Why does God allow suffering to occur?" is fairly simple: I don't believe in God. ;) But seriously, if I were to assume he existed, my idea for why suffering occurs would be along Green Baron's reasoning: what would life be without one thing to balance the other? You can't appreciate joy without pain. If you don't think suffering should exist in the world, then why should God even bother with putting us here? Why not just have us all born straight into heaven? What's the point of earth?

Frankly, my biggest quarrel with God, if he exists, is his "mysteriousness." There would be SO MUCH less confusion if he were to just have an open relationship with us. If everyone knew for sure that God existed, you'd be damn right that we'd all become model believers. Of course, by revealing himself, he spoils his little "test" of worthiness that he puts us through.

So, does God exist? I'm an athiest-turned-agnostic. I went through my little cathartic period of melodramatic depression and withdrawel, during which I convinced myself that existence was meaningless. Well, I've come around the curve now. I don't believe in God, but I no longer see a meaningless universe as the only explanation. I'm open to anything you throw at me, i.e. I'm agnostic.

Some things have caught my eye in previous commentaries, and so now I feel the need to ask some questions:

Can you believe in God without believing in the Devil?
Is there a such thing as a non-Christian/Jewish/Muslim God?
Should you fear God?

My answers would be yes, yes and no.

What do the rest of you think?

Incidentally, George W. Bush wiped his spectacles off on David Letterman's Producer's sweater when her back was turned. What the H*LL is wrong with that man?
Entity
Thursday, November 2, 2000 04:18:57 PM
IP: nic-30-c5-215.mw.mediaone.net

Kiss pumpkins for Halloween that Mike and I carved!! Clicky!
jenn
Thursday, November 2, 2000 09:31:06 AM
IP: 192.245.189.3

Coming tonight... a very special Gathering update! We've got something very exciting to announce, so stay tuned for details of why The Gathering 2001 is going to be the con next year that NO ONE will want to miss!
Patrick Toman
Thursday, November 2, 2000 06:56:39 AM
IP: ac91f88e.ipt.aol.com

Gside> <> Heh...I somehow managed to get them a while back; the madness that is RL has precluded me from notifying you until now. Sorry... :}
Real post sometime before the rest of Hell freezes over. ;P
Wilek
Thursday, November 2, 2000 02:54:13 AM
IP: proxy1.spaceproxy.com

Gasper> <>: I tend to like the SNES style. Or at least it affects the way I think of the buttons' names (ABXY as opposed to sq, tri, x, cir).
<<only let me watch them play Pitfall>>: Ahh, I should be more used to interpreting non sequitors, I use them so much.

Incidentally, anyone know of a place that has a good dump of FF2, or an emulator that will run it without a glitch during fights? And I mean FF2, not FF4/2. That also said, anyone know of a NES emulator that has a nice fastforward key, like ZSNES?

Fire Storm> <<that ad campain worked for cheese>>: Heck yeah. All we have to do is combine the two. What is the best kind of cheese to go with keilbasa? I normally default to cheddar (preferably odler than I am), but that just doesn't seem right.
<>: Don't feel too bad, I'm sure you have a couple more productive years left in you somewhere.
<<WHERE DID THIS YEAR GO?>>: In the negative direction of the axis parallel to i_xj_xk_ (where i_, j_, and k_ are the first three unit vectors, and x is the cross product). That or Canada.

Welcome Juliaexia.

Warpmind> Happy birthday. May your insanity increase exponentially with your years.

Mary Flanders> <<what are you feeding this kid, algae>>: hey, pond scum is actually very nutricious (said purely for humor value). This is what happens after you accompany your father on numerous pond scum collection forays.
<<Anyone here know any great comdians other than Robin Williams who've talked about expecting a baby and parenting?>>: I've heard a Bill Cosby routine numerous times that was rather amusing. Routine, mind you, not the book. Dang, Robby got that one. Though Bill Engvall has a couple good bits on the later stages of child rearing.

All right, now to work on this week's comment room.

Gunjack> <<What more do you want? Tentacles?>>: Do you really want to ask that while I am in earshot. Or whatever the text based equivalent is.
<>: but oldschool adds a whole extra layer of leetness. It makes me beyond leet.
<<A really cool guy who gives me illegal and obscure music?>>: Well, I'd dispute the first part. (not the legality, before that)
<<but I LIKE the hat!>>: Ever since I got V, its class costuming has become rather insistant to the rest of my mind. To the point where it starts to seem wrong to mix and match hats.

Dang, I just noticed that I could have registered today, but I forgot. At least none of the sections I want have closed yet.

I think I'll take my break at Robby's post. More later.

And for my minor return, and because I haven't done a Band song in a while, the latest mp3 is Back to Memphis by The Band.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Thursday, November 2, 2000 02:23:39 AM
IP: gside.resnet.rutgers.edu

Ah hell. I just twisted my ankle. OWIE! *limps around the house* Was screaming like a banshee, I was. >:P
Mary Flanders
Thursday, November 2, 2000 12:53:42 AM
IP: adsl-63-195-144-108.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net

Well, once again it was a busy week, but it's almost over. I'll start catching up now, but first I have some things I want to say.

Science is a mnemonic for the world.
I know I'm behind on the mp3s, but I don't think I'll be able to double up until Wilek lets me take Oeddie and Smut down. Or I choose two small files.
If you want to see something that took up some of my time this week, see dld.jpg in my directory.
And I enjoyed the latest Pendragon.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Thursday, November 2, 2000 12:04:24 AM
IP: gside.resnet.rutgers.edu

RP WARNING!!!
**The void.
OJ Simpson is still in a void between life and death, reeality and oblivion, New Orleans and the twisted bank west of the Missippi. Yes, OJ has found a jumpgate taking him to the Westbank, filled with cheesy people and strange smells, along with white gangstas who drive SUVs containing Confederate flags while blaring rap music at intolerable decibels. OJ is lost and bewildered in this strange and backwards land, until he sees a bus with the words W-4 Marero on it, and he steps in. The driver says it is going towards downtown New Orleans, so OJ knows the location better, but he decided it is best to keep some sort of disguise so he will not be recognized until the time is right.**
END RP for now!!

Hello all. I have been absent from the CR for a while, and largely due to soem unpleasantness that occurs, however I feel the need to post soem words of solace.

Azarah> I do not know how much help I can be. I have not lost any parents so I cannot relate to your sorrow and loss. I have lost many older relatives, including my gransparents and a cousin who took the role of my paternal grandmother as my own died two years before my birth.

I do not know what your beliefs are,a nd you may have every right to be angry at God, and frankly I am too much of a coward to be angry with God, and it doesn't mesh well with my own beliefs to do so, but that will not help you. Suffering and pain exist, but so does happiness and mirth. In a homily, Father Armstrong told me that one cannot truly experience misery without experiencing great joy so a comparison can be drawn. Hopefully you cna take some comfort in the good times you have which make these current days so unbearable. I also beleive that God permits evil to exist in this world, so that there arises a reaosn for good and valor to ocunter and combat the evil. For every Oliver Cromwell, there is a St. Thomas Moore. In my won faith, we have suffered under the likes of the Borgias, DeMedicis and men like Cardinal Richelu, but we have also propsered under Orders like the Christian Brothers, the Jesuits, Dominicans, and Benedictines, along with a countless number of saints and others nearing that rank. In thsi very century, Pope John Paul II has more than made up for the actions of Gregory X and Mother Teresa has done as much if not more good in my faith's name as the evil Torquemeda did in the same Church's name.

I do not know what faith you were raised in, or what you follow now. I am guessing you are either Russian Orthdox or Jewish. Both have strong and beautiful spiritualities and figures to look to and ask for comfort. While my mother and I are distant and we do not agree on much, I have accepted Mary as my mother and my Queen. I have made it a point to devote my life to her and be her devoted son and paladin. She is the core of my spirituality and often my consoler. When times are darkest, I take out my rosary and ask for her prayers and help, and I have a series of figurines of her in my room to aid inmy devotion.

Now, this is my path and my spirituality, and I am in no way trying to make you follow it, though you are more than welcome to, but we are different people and what may give my life meaning may not have the same effect for you. I also do not know how to ease the suffering you feel at this point, but in my own life which is not even a third of the way concluded (I hope), I have found life to be a pendulum swinging back and forth and eevrything changes. I ultimately, I hope the final swings of this pendulum will be in my favor and my end days will be happier ones, and I hope that you too will experience many better times and even a few unpleasant times that will help to enhance the better times and assist in yoru growth and learning. All that we experience in life will teach us, and it seems the worst times in our life will teach us the most and offer us valuable insight so we can enjoy teh good tiems more, and I hope that your suffering will be replaced by joy soon, and that it will be all the more joyous as you learn that your time of despair has concluded ::warm hugs::

Also, while I don't know of your own religious belief, it may help you to go to a Church and light a candle for your mother, especially on a day like her birthday. It is a wonderful and meaningful remembarance. And Taleweaver is mistaken, for tommorrow is All Soul's Day, and actually that woudl be a perfect time to do so.

Taleweaver> Alas, friend you are msitaken. Today is All Saint's Day, and tommorrow is All Soul's Day.

Kyryn> Thank you for the kind words and I like your views on politics. What do you think of Kay Bailey Hutchison? BTW, I hope more wiccans share your view. The usual ones I hear about tend to be more liberal.

Mary> Well, those are the drawbacks to youth. If you cannot experience the rites this day, then think of how much you'll enjoy them when you can attend.

Lawrence> I fear my ICQ is in continuous brainfart. I haven't been able to get on it in months. It is truly unfortunate.

Kitania> I am proud of Stephanie for taking responsibility for her actions. I cetainly hope the father does the same, as he owes it to the life helped create. I hope your parents are not too upset, for I understand why they are upset, but now they have a grandchild to brighten their days. I hope Stephanie keeps it if she feels repsonsible enough or puts it up for adoption if not, but the other choice would be unthinkable, IMO ::shudder::

You said that you can't bear children. Maybe, you and Doug can take care of the child if Stephanie feels unable to.

Well, at least Gus will not bother you, except in Purgatory, but that should be a long way away for you, hopefully.

Sevarius Jr.> I too greatly enjoyed Halloween III ;)

Lady Corax> As to the essay. Living, I would like to meet Warren Buffett, an investing genius who's safe, practcial,a nd conservative stock market choices have made him the third wealthiest man in the world, next to Ellison and Gates.

Dead, it would be someone like JP Morgan or Pacioli, the Italian monk who invented double entry accounting.

Winter Witch> Ireland souds truly fantastic. I also want to go to Scotland and all other ancestral lands, plus a few non-ancestral ones :)

Daphne> I am surprised you were afraid to mention your own faith. I say that I'm Catholic in almsot every post :) All of my Protestant relatives are Episcopalian, and the Methodists are a respectable Anglican faith, and Wesley was one of the few religious leaders I like, too.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
New Orleans, Louisiana
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 09:52:37 PM
IP: adsl-78-220-248.msy.bellsouth.net

*trudges in looking like hell*
Not truly ready to talk yet, but it appears that many people need a hug. *hugs*
I've put my email down, I'm here for all of you if any need to talk.
*lights a small white candle, and sits quietly on a chair looking at the flame*
Bronx - [BronxWyvern4@aol.com]
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 09:47:29 PM
IP: spider-wd054.proxy.aol.com

Guys, if I do not make another post before today is up, my dad and I had a big fight over me using the computer. That's all I have time for.
DPH - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
AR, USA
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 07:46:53 PM
IP: max1-12.cwy.cei.net

Azarah: Hang in there, and God does exist. I've been through my own "trial of fire" and it made me stronger. I don't particularly want to get into the details just now, but trust me when I say that it was just as hard for me as what you're going through. Now: why do I believe in God? How can I not? Look at the world, the universe, even just other human beings. Do you truly believe that an acident started all this? I certainly hope not. Why would God let this happen? Thats a little harder to explain. First, let me say that I don't feel that God did this. Let it happen, yes, did it, no. Remember, if you believe in God, then you kinda have to believe in Satan as well, and this kinda thing would be right up his alley. Second, a part of life is growing. We all grow in different ways. One part of growth that we all eventually have to go through is the loss of someone we love. I know that right now what you're hurting and really what to know "why," I also know that I can't know the true depth of your pain. What I do know is that all of those people I know who have lost dear ones <friends is some cases, family in others> have great faith in God, and it is this faith and the people with whom they go to church that helped them most through their crisese , and with out that help and that hope they wouldn't have made it through the dark times. Remember this, it's real important. If you do believe in God, then you believe in life after death, heaven specifically, and if you believe in that, then you can have hope that you'll see all those who have gone before again. I truely hope this helps you, and I know that everyone here is hoping <and praying> for you.

Az
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 07:26:57 PM
IP: 198.215.20.206

**enters from the shadows in his coat and offers it to Azarah** Here ... you could probably use the warmth.

Listen, we've all been through the pain of loss and loneliness at one point or another ... some of us more than others. So firstly, there is *no need* to apologize for letting out your feelings in here ... as much as folks bicker back and forth, this room ... this circle of friends ... in the end will be here for ya. God knows folks have vented so much in here.
Now secondly, take heart in the words of Nietzche. Granted, there's a lot of things Nietzche came up with that I disagree with (the concept of the Ubermensch (superman) and "God is dead" being among those), but there's one thing that, whenever I've felt down, I've taken comfort in that he is credited with saying. "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." There *is* a reason for pain in life, and ultimately its goal is to make you a stronger person for having gone through it. So hang in there. It's definitely got to go up from where you are right now. **hugs**

Update on my condition: Hallelujah, I don't have to be operated on! The fracture is a hairline one close to the joint, so the orthopedist's opinion is that I can go back to kind of using my hand (I can at least type nine-fingered now), just as long as I don't try to lift or pull anything heavier than 10 lbs. with my left hand. He shortened the splint, took out my stitches, and sent me on my way to come back in three weeks, at which time the break should be healed.
So I'll get my Christmas wish ... some people wish for their two front teeth ... I was wishing for my left index finger. ;)

That's all for me tonight ... all that needs t'be said. Oh, BTW, hopefully I should have my Halloween pics scanned by Friday. Two, two, TWO days until ya see the epic battle of Xanatos vs. Maeve! ;)

**hugs Azarah once more, waves to XenaTrek and Lady Corax, then leaves**
Coyote the Bando - [gathering_motor_city_2004@hotmail.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 07:19:18 PM
IP: 216.28.101.53

*Lynati crawls out from under a table*

But I only had half a glass of mead...
ah, well.

I spent the entire day (8 am to 4:30) sitting on my butt at a mandatory meeting for freshmen. I'm sorry, I can't sit any more. I'll read throught his properly tomorrow and have real responses.

In the mean time, I've skanned through enough to know that Azarah is in need of a serious group hug .
> Hands Azarah a bottle of vaporous "Essesnce of Hug" to open. <
I'm sorry, that's the best I can do.

I have to go buy wood, cut paper, and study for an art history exam that I have tomorrow.
Wish me luck. No, wait, wish me stamina instead.

and remember:
"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy increased."

*Lynati hurries off*

Lynati
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 06:59:36 PM
IP: 208.12.249.253

azurah>> 1st of all, I apologize profusely If I spelled your name wrong.
2nd, I don't know what I can say that can help you. It seems like everything that can be said has been said, is rather inane, or (no offense, anyone) both. Which frustrates me, both as an apprentice-wordsmith and a word addict. I want to help. I don't think I can. I'm sorry.

As for God, up 'til now I've avoided the topic for fear of offending, but between re-reading the "Left Behind" series and this topic conversation, I have to say something.
Yes I am a Christian. Protestant. United Methodist, to be specific. I don't apologize for that. I beleive in God, Jesus, the whole Apostle's creed. I used to have very low self-esteem, I am a chronic overachiever. I believe that without my faith (and someOne to back it up), I'd be dead by now. I'm not talking reckless behavior, I'm talking "They'd be better off without me", "Adam's Song" type stuff. YOu know what I mean. But i have a reason for being, and as for those who might be better off without me, guess what? they're just gonna have to put up with me for a few more decades. So if you resent GOd, ok, just remember, GOd can, and given the chance, will help. If anyone disagrees, that's your right. I totally respect that. I just need to say what I need to say.

Please, be happy, everyone.

Daphne, apprentice-wordsmith
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 06:44:16 PM
IP: dialup-63.214.203.123.philadelphia1.level3.net

Well, it's official!
I am coming down with either the cold or the flu. Let it be the flu! I know it sounds crazy, but if I have a cold my mom still makes me go to school. However, if I have the flu I get to stay home! (pauses for a big fit of coughs)
*clears throat*
Anyway, hope everyone had a happy Samhain and got plenty of candy!

I would join in the conversation about why God allows suffering, but I am a bit iffy on the subject. My parents taught me that God allows suffering so we can feel and know what emotions we hold. That was when I was younger but didn't really understand what it meant.

Well, hope everyone who had a bad day today have a good one tomorrow and those that had a good day, enjoy it. You never know when their coming or going.

Bye!
WinterWitch
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 06:38:59 PM
IP: ppp-63-202-222-215.dialup.snrf01.pacbell.net

*enters*

Update on the Samhain Festival! Silly me, I misread the date it takes place. It's this _Saturday_! This means I can go! Yippee!!!! ^_^
Mary Flanders
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 05:54:41 PM
IP: adsl-63-195-144-108.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net

** Niamhgold enters briefly **

NOrmally, I'm very busy, but this is a matter that I really feel like commenting on:

Azarah: I know, like you said, that these written words probably won't help. And neither will the assurance that there's several million people out there going through the same thing as you, since every person will, or has, at one point in there life, feel empty and alone to the point of apathy. It's a horrible feeling, and there's hardly anything that can heal it except time. I know how you feel; you feel alone when your by yourself and alone when you're with others. For the longest time, I've never felt like I belonged anywhere, despite the fact that I might be in a group of several people, talking with them, putting on this act like it all means something.
Even here, at college, things have arisen that have made me feel completely alone. Being away from my family has made me want to compensate by being with so many people; in truth, I haven't been to my dorm room in several nights, haven't eaten at the dinner table for three weeks, haven't *eaten* for a while, actually, and when I go back to my place to actually sit down and work, I sometimes cry, or get distracted, or something. Being normally a very dual-sided, introspective person, it now scares me to realize how much I'm in need of other people, of contact. And when I don't have that it's like withdrawal from a drug; I can't function, I haven't _cared_ about my artwork for the longest of times, can't function normally. I've gone from being an internal, thoughtful person to one who is more outgoing and external. Sometimes, I wish, I could find a happy medium. I'm confused by a lot now, by a boyfriend back home, and by Sergio, such a good friend here who likes me, I like him, but he's got a girlfriend and I've got Brian and neither of us wants to hurt their feelings even though we're no longer happy with them. Confusion, lonliness, utter feelings of helplessness and anger, and these are actually what life is all about.
You won't forget your mother. This loss of physicality that you're experiencing...it's not _forgetting_, it's a change in hierarchy. We're so limited by tangible sensation that we fail to realize the more important impact of thought, of imprint, of love. Through all of this you will realize that love is not physical but something that will always be there; even several years into the future you may be sitting down and a memory of your mother--maybe not her face or her voice, but simply the feeling of _confidence_ and _comfort_ you once felt in her presence--will sneak up on you. And you'll realize you haven't forgotten her but that she's always there, and she'll be perfect, and you'll remember those times with her and feel grateful that you had that.
I'd be lying if I said you'd be experiencing this peace in the near future. It can take many, many years, perhaps after you have children of your own. I've asked my own mother how long it takes to forget the death of a family member, and her parents have been dead for twenty years, and sometimes she still says she misses them. But then she'll tell me that there are little things I do, little mannerisms she never taught me, that are exactly like her mother's and then she knows she's not alone. It's not that I'm _replacing_ her mother, but I remind her, not of pain but of a sense of immortality, and then neither of us are scared anymore.
You should tell your father how you feel. Chances are, he's feeling the exact same way but thinks, perhaps, he's doing it all for _your_ good. And the both of you should write, should definitely write, put down all those feelings and memories so that you can look back at them one day and laugh at the past, cry at it, because everything happens for a reason. It is not an individual event that makes us human, as my friend Thryn says, but the _combination_ of our experiences that makes us so unique. Don't give in to the lonliness. Don't suffer because of it; you're not losing yourself, you're merely evolving for the next stage in your life. Life is a hard slope we all have to struggle up, sometimes we tumble down and have to struggle again, but there's _direction_. And we can either stand and let all others pass us by, or we can accept what footholds we've lost and keep going, keep pushing. Do some community service; here in the ghetto, helping the poor children takes my mind off of _my_ troubles and puts theirs first; when they dress up for Halloween, all they have for materials is their mother's lipstick, which they draw with on their faces. Looking at them, like this, I don't feel so alone, and in giving pieces of myself to them I realize that I'm _not_ empty, that I still exist somewhere inside of myself, and that it's just a matter of finding it and drawing it back out.

NIamhgold
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 01:18:26 PM
IP: 206.41.204.68

***Kyryn steps in.***

Ed> Fixed that link. Thanks for catching that. I accidently put in a backslash where I should have had a period on the filename.

Sevarius Jr.> What can I say? It's true! It's true!

Kitania> I'm glad that you don't have to worry about Gus anymore, although you should still watch out for his girlfriend. From what you said, she has it in for you too and might feel that this entire thing is your fault. I'm sad that it came down to a pointless, needless death. I wish Stephanie all the best and hope that she'll make wise decisions. (I'm sure that she will with such good support around ;).)

Winterwolf> {{{hugs!}}} Some of my best friends are werewolves!

Mary Flanders> Congrats on the grades and Blessed Be!

Azarah> {{{hugs!}}} We all have times where we feel abandoned by everything in the universe. Please don't feel ashamed for letting your friends know that you hurt. Sometimes just the act of writing things down/speaking them can help. As to not composing anything: We all have creative slumps. Many times they come at stressful moments in our lives or because sources of inspiration have changed or gone away. Creativity itself is not gone. And, as Taleweaver said, sometimes inspiration and creation can come from pain. Many of my best poems were written to let out my emotions. I wish that I could offer more than words but know that my friendship is there.

Later All!

***Kyryn steps out.***
Kyryn
Denton, TX
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 01:05:19 PM
IP: 216.35.46.129

Azarah> A soulsmith once told me nothing lasts forever. Neither pleasure nor pain, good times nor bad. It is all transitory. On one side of the scale, this is very bad, because all the good things in life will turn to ash. But on the other side, the unpleasant things will pass away too. Understand, that the depression you're feeling now isn't forever.

Forgetting your mother won't happen. Loved ones have a more indelible mark on our lives than we are aware of. It doesn't always come out in obvious ways. You are her creation and your father's. I know it is a terrifying thing to feel you are forgetting someone. It feels like you are betraying them somehow. But that isn't the case.

Anger against God> Sorry, but you'll have to get in line. And it starts behind me. My beef is a longstanding one. Is there senseless suffering in the world? Yes. Is God responsible? Ultimately yes. Does that change the fact that there is suffering? No. Arguments about the duality of pleasure and pain and God's plan sound hollow because they are unless you have faith. You have to believe it for it to offer comfort.

Call me nutty, but you may want to go to church today. Today is Nov. 1, All Souls Day. In the Catholic tradition this is the day you can pray for a soul to be released from Purgatory into paradise. It's also the Day of the Dead. A time to remember those who have departed. Today might be a good day to remember your mother. (What irony, an agnostic with attitude telling someone to go to church) I'm a hardcore cynic, you don't want to become me.

What words can help. First, I don't think your father's friend is trying to set him up on a blind date or anything. Sometimes, it is easier to talk to people who've been through the same thing. Second, you'll need to find your own way out of this feeling, but you don't need to do it alone. For me I write and talk to dragons. You say you are a composer, why not craft what you feel. Even silence has a melody. (When you talk to dragons you learn to flow with these contradictions). Third, nothing lasts forever. How we deal with the impermanence of it all determines whether we fly, sink or swim.

But most importantly know that you still hold love for your mother. And you bear the love she held for you. If you are looking for something to remind you of her, look to that.

I hope that helps.
Taleweaver - [taleweaver@usa.net]
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 11:30:36 AM
IP: hal5000.engineering.csupomona.edu

Hi all, I had a good time at the Halloween party. I really needed to get out and have some fun.

Kit> Sorry to hear about what happened to Stephanie. I'm sure that whatever she chooses, be it keeping the child, abortion, or putting it up for adoption, she will be doing what is best. I wish her luck. Oh, and thanks for the review of "Ripper".

Hmm, interesting discussion on why God allows suffering in the world. Here are my thoughts, and I'm not bashing, I'm just stating my opinion and my views on this. A lot of time, we look to fictional characters for guidance or inspiration, we try to think, "what would X do in this situation" or we look to them for inspiration. From my POV, God is just as fictional as Goliath, Picard, Sheridan, Demona, Galvatron etc. We ask, why does God allow suffering, but what I think must really be interpretted is him, or who ever else inspires you, to help end the suffering by doing what ever you can. While some may pray to God to help to help them with their troubles, I have looked to Xanatos more than once to talk myself out of unpleasant situations, and when I needed to stand up to my father, I looked to Galvatron in "Transformers: The Movie" for when he stood up to his cruel master Unicron. While some may ridicule me, it has worked for me. I don't actually believe that they exist, but that does not really matter because they have had a positive influence in my life.

As I said above, that's just my view on things. If praying to God and Jesus makes things better for you and gives you the strength to go on, than by all means I happy it does and I support you 100%, and I urge you to continue to do so, and to continue to believe in your faith. I may be an atheist, but I believe strongly in people having their faiths as long as they're doing good. I just hate when people impose their religion upon others. I hope I have not offended anyone with my views.

The new "Star Wars" news sounds interesting. On the whole, I'm sure that Episode II will be much better than Episode I. It's shaping up to be. As for the Fett thing, well we'll just have to see what happens.

Well, I've got to return to class.

C'mon all, I want to read more reviews for "Ripper", I was really excited about this one for a long time.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 08:44:33 AM
IP: 166.109.2.138

*Warpmind enters, scritching his chin.*
Bleurgh... what a night... Awakened much too soon. :(

Once more, a collective Thank You to everyone who's wished me a happy birthday. :)

SJ: So, with this Star Wars rumor, this joke is just too good to pass up, even though I'm certain to feel pain from it... If Anakin's father is a Sith, and pulled off some mind trick to make Anakin's mother forget about the whole thing, that means... *shudder* that Anakin's father FORCED himself upon Anakin's mother... *Takes cover.* Oh, and I must admit, I kinda like that Wicca vs. God debate, even though I figure Wicca is the kind of religion you have to actively seek, rather than be sought... :) (Nice AOD reference, by the way...)

Kit: My contact (not really a friend, but definitely on my good side, as a fellow Callahanian) is a member of the Hermetic Order of the Celtic Cross (Cand. Magi?), and, as I have figured it out, in one of the higher eschelons of that order. And as for tracking down those texts, well... I'm on quite good terms with the local priest; he's got several of those books in his library; the Apochryphica, the Old and New Testament in Hebrew and Greek, respectively, and so on, and so forth... only problem is, I can't read those languages... :| (And I doubt a pocket parlor will suffice...) Uh, but what did you mean about me enjoying turning 21as much as you two did? You mean you enjoyed my 21st birthday, or yours? (Really, you were none too clear about *that*...)

Winterwolf: Good hing I'm loath to smoke indoors then. :) (No, really, I like a good cigar and all, but if the scent follows me for hours and hours, just because it's embedded in the furniture, it's just too much...)

Mary: Aw, you can't go to that festival? Pity... but hey, maybe if you look up some of those Middle Eastern tricks, and borrow a carpet? ;) You never know; it just might work... As for Wicca and sex magic... I've read a few things about sex magic, and... the descriptions of how it's done somehow doesn't sound as fun as what the term suggests... :| then again,maybe I've looked up some of the wrong references... :|

Azarah: No, you didn't offend anyone here - a shoulder to cry on is partially what we're here for, after all... (It started out as less, but I figure this place has grown since then...) Anyways, my e-mail is open for communication; you want to rant, rave or just whine, feel free to lean on me. :) But consider this... Pain is, even though it hurts, as much a part of life as is pleasure. One cannot exist without the other, without both losing their meaning... as long as humanity is what it is, we're pretty much stuch with all the dark sides of this world. Hey, if it's any comfort, if I could, I'd show up on your doorstep with a padded shoulder for you... :) And letting go of that rant IS actually helping - as any Callahanian can verify, setting words to your feelings is therapy in itself...

**RP**
Warpmind snapped his head toward the entrance portal, where a signal lamp began to glow.
"Problem... someone is stuck in the portal's limbo; must have followed us and not made it through before the portal closed. Oh, well, we'll pick whoever it is up on the way out again."
Kari frowned, looking up at a tall shelf.
"But you didn't answer my question... where on earth did you manage to find such a large building?"
"I didn't. This is a small dimensional pocket, a space-outside-space, if you wish. By the way, I think you had better step back from that shelf; some of those books can be almost as cranky as the Necronomicon Ex Mortis, if not worse... they'll turn you into a ferret on the spot, if you're not careful."
SJ pulled down a tome, frowning.
"A ferret? How..."
Warpmind slammed the book back up on the shelf, paling.
"I said careful... This section is full of transformation and summoning tomes, a lot of which are in dire need of repair - some of the binding spells the pages are infused with have started to unwind."
SJ pulled back his hand slowly.
"Uh... okay. By the way, where did Sammael go?"
The trio looked around for the demon, who sat by one of the reading tables, flipping idly through a thick book.
"Say, this is interesting... didn't know this kind of work was ever done..."
Warpmind marched over and looked at the book.
"Oh, *that* book... feel free to look for any relatives while I show the others around, unless you'd rather..."
"Nah, I think I'll just study my genealogy for now..."
"'Kay. Now, as I was saying..."
With that, Warpmind guided the two humans along the aisles, indicating various rare books, and so on, and so forth...
**RP END**
Sorry, SJ, but I can't allow Angol to enter the library - the portal's shut, so we'll pick him up on the way out. But Sammael's pretty much free to cause a bit of mischief. :)
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@usa.net]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 08:13:00 AM
IP: mp-217-218-244.daxnet.no

Happy Halloween!!

Happy Samhain!!

happy dia de los Muertos!!

**********************shameless plug alert**********

I hoped to have a fanfic up sooner than it looks I will, its in the sprit of Halloween- It should be soon though. Demona May has illustrated some of it, and as usual, did an outstanding job- let you all know when its up! ^_^

**************************end of plug*********************

Mary flanders- could you drop me an em?
jenna - [theamazingjenna@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 08:01:07 AM
IP: 1cust137.tnt2.stafford.tx.da.uu.net

Oops...sorry forgot one last thing.

Azarah- I think I understand how you feel. I've felt that way before and I still do. Sometimes it's like a hole in my chest just drawing the best parts of myself in leaving me cold and empty. It gets to the point where I just don't care about anything and I don't want to be that way. There have also been times when the smallest thing will make me want to strangle someone because part of me believes that if I do I'll feel better...and I'm scared it might be right.
When I get frustrated and things happen to my friends and family that I have no control over I can almost convince myself that running away from this life would be for the best. But it's not. I don't believe that God allows suffering to exist. If God just went around making everything better then that would be Heaven to me, not life. I believe that we (Humanity) allow suffering to exist and God has left it up to us to try and stop it. He's given us all the tools we need to do it, but sometimes we just get all caught up in ourselves. One person can't end suffering alone, if all of Humanity would just one day let go of our hate, jealousy, and tried to work together I really would have to ask the question, "What couldn't we do?"
Feeling trapped and trying to remember a loved ones face after they're gone are tough. I felt so trapped once I joined the Army (oy!). I recommend focusing on what you love and who you're with. Enjoy life, don't be afraid of it. I once heard somewhere that the reason why it's so hard to remember what someone once looked like is because people are always changing. Facial expressions and aging make it so one person is never exactly the same one day to the next.

I hope you found some of this helpful. You have my e-mail (below) if you want to talk more.

Jaden - [jaden12@hotmail.com]
KoreaWednesday, November 1, 2000 05:53:54 AM
IP: 211.216.216.35

Warpmind-Happy 21st.

Christine- Don't leave! I enjoy reading what you have to say and hearing your opinion.

Mary- Excellent grades. Hey when when I start college again, can I borrow your brain?

Eep. Gotta go.
Jaden - [jaden12@hotmail.com]
KoreaWednesday, November 1, 2000 05:16:51 AM
IP: 211.216.216.35

Azarah please don't feel that you are alone! That you feel so terrible makes me feel like crying openly. I would do it if that would help. I don't know what will help or even really what I can say but let me tell you that I want to help you. I think that it is good and healthy that you share and state your problems. The fact that you have shared this here means that you do want help. Maybe you would benefit by speaking with someone trustworthy in your life like your father. You might want to tell him how you are feeling. I think someone like that would be best suited to helping you. Someone that loves you unconditionally and is not looking to get anything from you would be a good candidate to help. Unfortunately I'm not sure what else I can say. I hope knowing that someone cares makes it a little easier. I know there are other great people here that will want to help you. I'm sure they can offer you more than me. Still I will stand by you and listen to anything you have to say. **offers you comfort and strength in whatever way you feel you can accept it**

My email is open to you. Please feel free to contact me.
Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 03:58:52 AM
IP: 206.15.120.91

Azarah, I don't think anyone is offended, and I don't think it's a problem if you need to express your feelin's here. I'm not offended, and I guess, though I don't have much experiance in the matter, if you need to talk, or just someone to listen to ya, I'm on AOL at GSKeltner, or if you just need to write...e-mail's at the bottom. Hope this helps.

Gasper.
Gasper - [gasper@icybrian.com]
MN, US
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 03:42:31 AM
IP: 209.83.84.4

and of course I posted that when I really shouldn't have because it will probably offend lots of people which it didn't mean to do but will likely do anyway..
And besides that, whining won't change a thing.
I am sorry
I am not helping anything at all.
:(
azarah
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 12:50:17 AM
IP: dynrez216-32168.dhr.reznet.uwo.ca

Today I feel so lonely. I can't stop crying, for some reason. I am furious and sad and tired and lonely and trapped and the only thing I want to do is run as far away from here as I can go.
I want my mum.
I want a recording of her voice, a photograph that looks like her. I have her art, her pottery that looks like wood, or women, or the ocean but it is so cold. It doesn't feel like she did. I can't remember hardly what she looked like, what she spoke like. I want to cut off all my hair and look in the mirror. I wonder if I will see her then, in my naked face.
I am furious with a woman from my street, who invited my father to an evening "tea", with the purpose of introducing him to some of her female widow friends. How DARE she?? She doesn't know my father, she hardly knew my mother. Does she think that just because it has been nine months and he hasn't found someone yet, it is her business to put her nose in and play matchmaker with him? What gives her that right?? When he wants to meet someone, he will, stop shoving blatently obvoius stupid widow's parties at him, it is disgusting..
I was talking today to someone about God. He believes in God but I don't think so. Not God in any form, male, female, whatever. If God is so great and wonderful, why would He let this happen? Why would He take life like this? For His own sick pleasure? Or because He has a convenient "reason" for "calling" souls back when He "needs" them? I don't believe that. What about the rest of us who need, as well? What about those who cry out in the night from lonliness, and the pain that comes from watching another suffer and being forced to watch, helpless, as their life is taken from them. And His laws that say the sick must suffer, while it is seen as "humane" to end the suffering of an animal in similar condition. His working that makes it possible for people to hurt others, to cause war, assault, famine. If He really made the universe, coldn't He have done a better job? And if He is really looking down on me right now, can anyone tell me where to find a big cosmic stick that I could jam in His eye? To make Him stop looking at the world and just watching its pain? Honestly, if He made the universe, I would understand how He could abandon this planet in favour of having something better to do.
I am trapped at this school, and I can feel whatever small piece of my original being that I have left dripping out of me every day. I feel like I am the living dead, a husk of a person walking around, playing at being alive, at having a soul or something other than emptiness inside. I am supposed to be a composer but I have not written a note yet this year. I feel like a failure. I am harassed daily by a certain member of the opposite sex who, I know, is wanting me to have sex with them and no matter how many times I say "no" and "please stop bothering me so, my answer will not change no matter how hard you push me" they just don't seem to understand. They are so kind to me that I feel such guilt in refusing, but if I gave in, I know there would be nothing left inside me. And I don't want to die.
People come to visit my room sometimes and lately I have been furious at their invasion. But when they don't come, I am furious at my abandonment so I cannot win. By body aches, my hands burn, I cannot sleep. I will try anything to distract me, even learning HTML for fun.
I think I am losing this war..
And I look at this page and see Coyote hurting, and SOROW hurting and other people's pain and there is nothing I can really do and I am so frustrated. I want to reach out to you all, but there is such emptiness in type, I cannot reach anything. I can't even help myself.
Azarah
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 12:47:42 AM
IP: dynrez216-32168.dhr.reznet.uwo.ca

*enters*

*grumbling somewhat* Hey folks. I'm kinda peeved at my folks right now. I found out there's a Samhain festival happening in Sacramento on Sunday and I asked my folks if I could go. Dad said he doesn't want to leave me alone there and he would have to be there with me, but since the following Monday is a big day for him (him being a UC Davis professor and all) and it's also a school night, he says I can't go and I'll have to wait till there's a festival happening that's not on a school night or collides with my dad's schedule. My mom wouldn't be able to drive me because she can't see to well at night and she doesn't want to be on the highway then. >.< Damn it! I can't wait till I move out and go to college, than I can go to as many pagan festivals as I want! >:)

BTW, I know what my quarter grades are! I have 4 A's and one C. The C is in Physics, but that's ok, since I can pull it up for the semester grade. I'm surprised that I got an A in Math because I've never gotten higher then a B in that subject before, plus my teacher is a tough grader. :P But I'm very pleased. ^_^

Sevarious Jr.><<pagan recruitment drives>> Don't put too much work into finding one of those drives, since us pagan people don't actually go out a recruit new members. Not part of our belief system or principles. ;P If you want to find more of us cute pagan girls, just hang out at a local Wicca shop or bookstore! ;) You might be interested in knowing that some of us pagan people know a little something about sex magic. ;) hehehehe...lots of fun that, so I've been told. ;) <<explaining to God about converting to Paganism>> *LOL* ;D

Must go now. Merry/Happy Samhain all!

*GONE*
Mary Flanders
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 12:34:40 AM
IP: adsl-63-195-144-108.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net

**A snowy white werewolf tears into the CR, bares his fangs and looks ready to pounce**

Happy Halloween! Hmm, I run in here with a big smile and ready to give hugs to everyone and you run away? ;D

**Sees the candy on the table and takes a few personal favorites for later** Thanks Bronx! **Hugz**

Niamhgold> **Makes to pounce on you but at the last moment goes for some huggles** Hi! Thanks for the Halloween game/E-card! It was tons of fun! I've missed having you around! ^_^

Azarah> Hi! If you don't mind my asking what is the significance of the lovely white stick that likes to be forgotten? As for telling people about this site go ahead! The more the merrier! :)

Warpmind> **leaps at Warpmind but misses as Warpmind leaves in the nick of time** On the whole smoking thing I used to be very open with it but it really got to me as a few college friends smoked and when we go to hang out they would smoke. After a while it just started wreaking havoc with my sensitive nose and even my eyes at times so now I prefer to avoid people when they are smoking indoors. Other than that smoke em if you got em! :D On to other stuff, so one last scary dental visit after Halloween! Good deal that you're almost completely in the clear! :P

Caliope> **falls to the floor from your pouncing and is pinned as you hug him and purr** No fair Cali cat! That purring has me powerless! ^_^ <DC freak blizzard> Yeah, maybe... It could happen! **Hugz** Good Luck! :P Oh! Does that mean I'm going to PR and you aren't taking 'no' as an answer! ;P **more Hugz** <Roswell> **SPOILERS** I saw it! I was great but now after everything that happened all the relationships are royally messed up! How can Max and Liz not get together? Neither of them will be truly happy you know, not until they are together again. Michael and Maria have just had a major blow after such good progress in the last episode! Well at least they know the new girl is a "skin". Alex and Isabelle are still on track... going nowhere fast! :P It was such a heart wrenching episode watching Liz do all those things to stop the relationship with Max because all of their futures depended on it. On that little bare chest scene, it just makes so many other guys look bad! I'm getting there just need to keep working out... ;) Next week looks like a zombie episode with the skins. **END SPOILERS**

WinterWitch> Well something chocolate works for me as for movies I never really acquired a particular favorite in the horror category.

Kit> <Gus> Well at least it's certainly over. <Stephanie> Well I hope you manage to get that worked out. It sounds like a good talk to Keith is certainly in order. I'll give my congratulations since I am optimistic that it will work out. As if anyone thought I wasn't typically an optimist. <job> I'll definitely keep you posted with the job situation.

Jessie> Hi! Long time no see! Have fun in costume! I'm dressed as a fuzzy werewolf! ^_^

Emambu> Hey there!

I had an RP in my mind but I just want to post this now. Good night!

**The snowy white werewolf howls at the moon and disappears into the night**

Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Wednesday, November 1, 2000 12:04:28 AM
IP: 206.15.120.110

*Emambu runs in briefly*

Just had to say this now or else I'd forget and hate myself tomorrow. Anyway:

HAPPY HALLOWEEN!! Hope you all have a great time!

Ahh, a fun, fun night. This is one of my favorite nights. Usually, I'd volunteer in my township and take some of the younger ones trick or treating. Tonight though (this being my first year in college) I get to spend it writing computer programs instead of going out with my friends. [sarcasm (var anger : real; disgust, sadness : boolean);] I love my life. [/sarcasm] Well, catch you all later.

*Emambu runs out*

---Emambu
Emambu - [emambu@commandchamber.net]
Philadelphia, PA, USA
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 11:38:23 PM
IP: dhcp81-237.pittsburgh.resnet.pitt.edu

********BEGIN RP*************

*Another day, another battle.* Gasper said to himself, walking away with his arm detached from the socket. Finding a wall, and with a tribute to Martin Riggs, he slammed the shoulder back into place, and found a spot to sit. He was getting antsy. He didn't know how much time had passed in the living world, and it was driving him nuts. Seven sat down next to him. He didn't look at his opponent, but instead, just leaned against the rock wall.
"How long do you think we'll be down here?"
"What's with the we stuff?" He replied.
Seven shook her head. "If you go, I go. I won't stay down here that much longer." About ready to get up, Gasper just stared her down. "Why? HOw many worlds have you destroyed, how many lives did The Ten ruin? Me? I got sent here for some reason I still don't comprehend-"
"It was this." A blazing HFIL Dagger came to life.
"Thanks for reminding me."
"So like I was saying, how do we get out?"
"Like I said...what's with this we stuff."
"But you have a plan?" Seven asked.
"Something like that...." The Dragoon said, closing his eyes.
********RP ENDS***********

Hey all. After a fun day of 12 hours on campus, I come home to find that the person who was responsible for finishing the final LAST NIGHT has thrown upon me the responsibility. So I think I'm gonna have to do some creative fiction stuff...I hate "10 years down the road" Dealies. I don't plan that far...let alone 2 years down the road. All I know is that I'll be in college for a bit after changing my Major twice. Ah the joys of life.

So, Vlad, the True story is on tonight. Watchin' it at 12AM, hope it's good, though It probably won't have Adrian F. and Lisa. Tragic...no Maria either....heh heh heh heh heh.

I guess I just needed to RP and rant tonight. I don't know why. That's all from me.

Gasper - [gasper@icybrian.com]
MN, US
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:34:05 PM
IP: 209.83.84.4

Coyote: On your hand, phew. :) On Stephanie, thanks for the congrats and understanding. She hasn't been debating what to do with the child once she has him/her, have the baby or have an abortion was the main dilemma of the weekend. That and who the father is. Which she wants to find out before she makes any decision as to whether to keep the baby, put them up for adoption, or what-not. For once I must commend her maturity. :) Perhaps tonight we'll get answers. Have to go now, must attend big Halloween Party starting in ten minutes!

<grabs bag of stakes, hits Submit, and runs out the door, stopping only to throw DC a live grenade. The evil entity gulps in surprise, then screams as it explodes and kills him.> No more messing up our e-mail from you, buddy. :)
Kit
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:33:57 PM
IP: pool-63.52.169.50.dlls.grid.net

Coyote > I wish it was cold here. It's 75 degrees and I just took my friend's nephew out trick or treating. (I need to borrow other people's kids to give me a good excuse to have a good time on Halloween.) We went trick or treating around the neighborhood with my Graeme costume on. I got called everything from a Bat to a Dragon. Non-Gargoyles fans obviously. A few kids called me Brooklyn. Pretty close!
(Click on my name to see my costume if you haven't already seen it.)
"Do I really need an excuse to have a good time?"
Happy Halloween y'all.

Rulok - [jmiller1@satx.rr.com]
San Antonio, TX, USA
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:42:50 PM
IP: cs162175-13.satx.rr.com

Jessie Peff>> Not in costume right now, but as a guide for my school's haunted house, I was an MiB. No one got it, though
Daphne, apprentice-wordsmith
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:24:02 PM
IP: dialup-209.246.210.3.philadelphia1.level3.net

**returns, coat flapping in the breeze**

Kitainia: I'm right handed. Lucky me, whenever I stick a hand someplace dangerous, it's always my left one. :)
About Stephanie ... man ... I don't know if I should be congratulating or giving sympathy. That's real tough. Does she know what she's going to do with the child once she has it?
Anyway, pass along my best wishes and prayers.

Jessie: Hiyas, been a while! I did dress up this year ... remember the Xanatos costume from Orlando? I did some improvements (like a more manageable wig :P) and added some stuff so that I turned it into the half-armored Xanatos from "Eye of the Beholder." Let me tell ya ... it's hard to find stuff to use as claws on your feet! Wound up destroying two Freddy Krueger gloves and putting the claw parts through the shoelaces of my tennies. :)

**swishes around the cape again as he leaves**
Coyote the Bando
Amgonac, Michigan
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:22:55 PM
IP: 216.28.101.2

Hi ya'll.
Let's see, what's there to do...
Pendragon review> I'm not gonna do spoilers, so don't worry. I liked the episode, but it seemed like some things could have been done better. It's kinda like the staff stops short of making the characters really suffer. I suppose that's in keeping with the show, though. The animated series never quite followed through with the dirtier punches, either.

[my, isn't David morbid? He's sitting here saying the writers should be meaner to all your favorite characters]

Season's Greetings> Happy Halloween, or whatever scary holiday you celebrate this time of year. I have a way cool Death costume that would go great in a Day of the Dead.

Can't think of anything else right now. Maybe later. Bye for now.
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:11:45 PM
IP: 198.215.20.201

Hey everyone! Happy Halloween!

Well, this is sure my favorite time of year. Wheee, costumes! I've been handing out candy to lots of cute kids all night, I have been in my Hester Prynne costume all day (went to class and got lots of compliments from the English profs...heheheh), and in a few more hours I'm off to Rocky Horror. Wheee!

Is anyone else dressed up? Tell me! I love costumes! :D
Jessie Feff - [feff@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:02:41 PM
IP: dialup7-34.mrs.umn.edu

**RP HERE- RELATING TO RECENT EVENTS IN THE NEWS**

"You know, Omar," Al Gore is saying to the leader of the Taliban, who is displayed on his office viewscreen, as the CR screen flickers to life, "you really shouldn't have let your buddy Osama bomb the Cole. That's really got America mad at you. If I become President, I may have to do something." "You will not be the real leader of your country if you win," Emir Omar replies with a scowl. "Ted Turner will, and through him Lord Gothmenes, the burning angel of Allah. They will not want to threaten me and my regime!" "But, Emir," Gore butts in, "our plan with Turner is not going to go through immediately upon my becoming President. It's gonna take a while! You know the Second Burning of Atlanta, and the Rise of the Age of Destruction, can only happen on December 23, 2001 or thereabouts! There are many things to be dealt with first- the Ten, the Black Ravens, the merger of Time-Warner and AOL, my election…" "You may not even get elected, American pig," Omar growls. "Have you forgotten that?" "The statistics are currently behind me," Gore replies. "Bush will only get 45% of the vote, says the latest poll. I will get 47%." He looks at his computer for confirmation and frowns. "Uh, at least it was like that five minutes ago. Now it's saying 46 and 43%. Hmm." "See, American?" Omar chuckles. "Your victory is not assured. Probably because you don't follow Islam." "Now hold on!" Gore barks. "I am Islamic, I'm Orthodox Islamic. In fact, I invented Islam!" Omar gives him raised eyebrows and a cruel laugh. "I haven't seen your name in the Koran." "It's there! Look again!" "We're getting off subject, Al," Omar growls. "The point is, you should not be threatening me. You know I am your valued ally in the worship of Lord Gothmenes, in the plan of ours to make him dominate the Earth. Do you want to damage that alliance?" "But if I'm going to be President, I have to serve the American people," Al protests. "Do you?" Omar chuckles. "Did your predecessor serve them, really? Have any of the last few Presidents served them? Think about it. And consider this- I am not your subject. I do not follow your orders. If Osama and I want to set up and finance the destruction of a ship, the bombing of an embassy, the start of a war, then we shall. There is nothing you can do to stop us. Worry about the people who are your subjects, Al. Change their opinions, by force if necessary. It's always worked for me." "But you're in Afghanistan!" Gore counters. "This is America! We don't work that way. If I tried to run things like you did, only 13% of the people…" He stops when he realizes his viewscreen has gone blank, Omar having terminated the connection. "Rats," Gore sighs, then picks up his phone and presses a number. "Hey Tipper, I need major stress relief. Can you let me kiss you again please? I won't hurt you this time, I promise. What, no? Oh, come on! Look, I didn't mean to be so aggressive. You're my wife, I love you too much, you know how it is. Tipper? Tipper? Damn!" Al slams the phone down, realizing she also hung up on him. "I know," he says. "I'll call Joseph, try to see if we can get something out of some recent crisis. Those Playstation 2 riots maybe, I know how he loves censoring and hates videogames of all forms, especially violent ones. At least 40% of America should be behind us if we speak out against the Playstation 2 and the related riots, I think, or maybe…" The problems in the Middle East forgotten, Al Gore goes online to see what the statistics are.

Meanwhile, in a military base in Turkey, a small group of people are not forgetting about the Middle East's problems. A regiment of Jordanian Special Forces are training on the regiment's obstacle course, led by Colonel Amad and King Abdullah II. Fasil, Hassan, Sarita, Erin, and Bessus are all training along with them, as are twenty caiveh led by Terrell. In a planning room inside a building nearby, Michael, Queen Noor, Andrea, and an elderly muscular man in a US Army General's uniform with short white hair are discussing strategy over maps of Abdullah bin Aziz's estate. A bald black man in a sweater vest and jeans wearing large horn-rimmed spectacles sits at a computer nearby, discussing intelligence set-ups with Mary and Patty. Lloky is watching them, looking slightly bored. Gubio sits at a computer terminal next to Hack's with Mist on his lap, stroking her with one hand and listening in on the strategy session as he types. "Geez," he shakes his head as he looks at some displayed figures. "Drug money, tax cheating, terrorism, he's hooked into everything and it's all displayed here. This Abdullah bin Aziz is a really serious bad guy." "Hey Gubio," someone says, and the Ravens' hacker looks up to see Erin standing over him drying sweat from her face and hair with a towel. "You really should come out there with us for a while, you could use some training." "In a second," Gubio replies. "What I'm doing here is very important. I've hacked into Abdullah bin Aziz's personal files. Soon I'll know everything there is to know about him. Then with a few keystrokes, I can financially ruin the guy before we storm his estate, and he won't know it till it's too late. I'm also composing a list of terrorist assets- bases, arms caches, training camps, and so on- that Aziz knows about, and I'm gonna give it to Queen Noor. She and the Desert Knights can then take them all out." "That's a very good thing to be doing," Erin commends him. "Aren't you worried, though? My uncle Abdullah can buy just about anything- great computer defense systems, tracing systems, technicians. You always log into a system with certain trademarks." "Nobody he could hire will recognize them as anything to worry about," Gubio shrugs in dismissal. "I'm a beneficial hacker who gets into systems to increase their security, remember? Interpol, the CIA, the UN, the Mossad, everyone knows that. They'll assume I'm fact-finding to do good. And nothing in here has defeated my intrusion yet, the security on this system is like tissue paper before my artillery shells. The only thing of concern is if he has some skilled hacker on staff who can try to boot me out, and even if he does, we both know nobody's good enough to do it." Erin raises her eyebrows, and as Gubio frowns, Mist suddenly hisses loudly, causing him to turn around. On the computer monitor has appeared a green text box with the image of a ski-masked face and the words, *Hello, my arch-nemesis. Snooping where you don't belong?* "Tyl36009," Gubio fumes, clenching his fists. "I thought he was working for Thailog, what is he doing here?" "That's the guy who cut off my Internet access with his blocking for fourteen weeks because of you sending people the counters for his viruses?" Erin asks. Gubio nods. "Yep. This bastard likes to hack into and destroy systems for fun, he gets off on it. I don't know what he's doing on Aziz's system but his access is going down." As Mist continues hissing, Erin shakes her head and walks off. Ignoring her, Gubio inserts a disk in the computer, calls up some files, and starts to send them Tyl's way. *You'll have to do better than that!* the masked face on the monitor laughs as Tyl receives the files on the other end and deletes them before they can do any damage. Gubio growls and readies another disk as the screen goes blank.

**THE HACKER DUEL WILL CONTINUE NEXT TIME, END THIS RP**

<Kit walks into the room looking exhausted> Hi everybody. Man, what a weekend. No good movies to review, but there were some significant events in my life. First off, Gus is dead. I don't know the exact details, but according to Officer Newsome, they had put him solitary for starting a riot in the showers on Friday, and for the letter he sent me. When they opened the cell door yesterday because he wasn't responding to repeated calls by the guards, they found Gus lying on the floor, having apparently slit his own wrists with a knife he'd smuggled in somehow and bled to death. That's what they're saying, anyway. I don't know if Gus really killed himself or not, there's no doubt he was crazy enough, but there's just a feeling I have…Oh well, I don't care. The good thing is, he's out of my life. Hopefully forever. The memories of him will be gone too, after a while, I hope. But not till I do the special death I've planned for the guy in the RP of course. Have to have my revenge somewhere. <grin> Thanks again to all who supported me through this time of trial in my life with him, I'm sure you're all as glad as I am that it's finally over. Doug, the rest of us here in Austin, and my family are glad too. Strange we feel this way about a man's death. But perhaps he'll find peace now. We hope so anyway. :)

The other bit of news is even bigger. You remember how last week I was talking about Stephanie being real sick, feeling woozy, and throwing up a lot? Well, my parents were here this weekend and they and I were able to finally convince her to go to the hospital and get checked out, because her trying to rest it off was obviously not working. She spent Saturday night there, and they found out what was going on. <drum roll> Turns out she's two months pregnant, and her symptoms are all those of intense morning sickness. My parents were shocked and pissed off to find this out at first, Stephanie and I were too, but we've all calmed down by now. My parents had a strange attitude about the whole thing- they told Stephanie she's an adult now and since she got herself into the mess she's in, she has to deal with it on her own. They had to go back to Houston Sunday night, and they did. Stephanie is home now, and she's dealing with the fact that a new life is growing inside her in her usual emotional way. I'm trying to help her as best I can, would appreciate any advice or prayers. She thinks she wants to keep the baby, and I'm encouraging her to do it, I'm sure Mom and Dad want her to keep the child too. The main problem is Stephanie can't believe what's happened even though it has, and she says she's not sure who the father is either. Doug and I have our suspicions it's Keith, since even though he and Stephanie broke up their relationship over a year ago, they're still very intimate friends and she hasn't seriously dated anyone else since him, but he's been avoiding the rest of us lately for some reason, absorbing himself in studies and work, so we haven't been able to ask him about it. Hmm. I'm sure we'll get this figured out eventually, we're gonna see Keith later tonight at Jammer's club (Halloween party tonight, woo hoo!) and maybe Stephanie and I can talk to him about this then. Funny how she enthusiastically agreed to the idea when I proposed it, I can tell she's up to something and there's something she's not telling me. Stephanie thinks she can fool her twin… <shakes head> Oh well, on to replies. Have to get them done before I can go to the party and see what happens, after all. :) And I must get caught up. Don't worry, I will let y'all know what happens next week. Or Doug will later this week. Just hope it has positive results.

Todd: Good comments about Buffy and Angel last week, I agree with you about the Buffy bad guy and Orb of Dagon, can hardly wait to find out more about them. Nice to see it having some more influence on your Pendragon writing this week too. Comments of course are below.

XenaTrek: Buffy's last season? I hope not. If it is, they better resolve all the lingering plot threads. But I hope it stays around, personally. I really like the show. <sighs> Oh well, I guess I'll always have my tapes. <half-grin>

Kyryn: Thanks for the sympathy, the situation that brought it about is easing somewhat. With Doug's job as well as Gus, I'll let him fill you in on developments with the former when he posts later this week. Congrats on getting through the tooth operation without the need for a root canal, and on the pain of the crown easing. My pain when I got my crown eased within less than a week, and I'm glad it was the same for you. Please continue keeping us up to date on things, okay? :) Hope you can get the permanent one on soon. Good luck.

Winterwolf: Thanks go out to you also. Hope your job situation continues to go well. Wish I had friends in the class so I could implement your idea about a study group. Haven't exactly been able to cultivate them though. <sighs>

Azarah: Welcome! And thanks for the good words about arguments, I agree with you on them. It is unmentionable to say why. :( Good luck with your friends, hope that the fights you're having with them will soon be resolved and the good things will keep going well. Sorry to hear about your mom too, I wish I had time tonight to tell you how really right you are about parents still loving you even though they yell at you a lot. But you already know why, I think. Which is good. :)

Warpmind: You're right about fiction, only 10% is really good, and some of it is good smut too. On the Caballah, who's your ritual magician friend? Just curious. Good luck tracking down the texts you want to read, hope you enjoy them a lot. As for Gus, well, I'm not going to be fighting him ever again now, thankfully. <grins> But maybe I can still get a book out of it someday, if the scene you mentioned was in there it would definitely make a good movie. :) Preferably starring Rachael Leigh Cooke, Elisa Dushku, or someone else who could handle my part. Thanks for the idea. And finally, Happy Belated Birthday! May you have enjoyed turning 21 as much as Doug and I did, if not more. :)

Wilek: Don't worry, you're not that predictable yet. Unless your kitchen's bears also drive T-80s and shoot at cockroaches. They don't, do they? Just wondering. <grin>

Coyote: Sorry about your hand, glad that you're finally seeing the orthopedist about it- good luck tomorrow. I'm also glad you're not hurt too badly, I've been praying a lot about the pain and hoping it ends soon. You're not left-handed, are you? Hope not. Whatever happens, good luck, with the hand and the new job. Don't worry, I'm sure your bosses at the latter will be understanding and the wounds will all soon be healed. <keeping fingers crossed>

Kaioto: Welcome back, friend! Good to see you again, I missed you a lot! :) Good comments on religion, I wish I had the time to make a full response to them. Haven't been able to think one up though thanks to the hectic weekend. And probably by the time I do, the topic in this room will be dead. <sigh> If it's not already. Oh well. In any case, congratulations on finally being able to return to the CR.

Christine: I too am wondering as to what's going to be your revenge, hope you will tell us. <recent comments> No! Please! Don't go! Don't…<sees Robby looking her way with a frown and shuts up> You know you have friends here, right? And way more friends than enemies? I can understand your situation, but really, you shouldn't leave. Not for the reason you said you were. We love you here- always have, always will, no matter what. And I'm sure there'll be many of us who'll be trying to show it in better ways from now on. <grimace> So please stay, alright? Sorry, just had to get that out. Some other good news- I've finished Dark of the Elvenwood. Will be trying to get you comments this weekend when I have the chance. For now, I will say thanks for yet another great and entertaining read!

David G: Oh man. My condolences go out to Jenny bigtime, and to you too, as I'm sure you feel her pain. <sighs> Oh well, death is a part of life. I just hope it doesn't keep happening to us. Now I'm worried about Stephanie's baby…<shakes head> I wish you both good luck in getting through this, hope the immediate emotional pain soon passes, though I know that of the memories never will. <sigh> I'll keep y'all in my prayers. Thanks also for your good comments on religion and the debate related to it that continues to go on in the world.

SOROW: Congrats to you on doing well in the talent show, and to your team on winning the Homecoming game. Glad Joe could attend the dance too, though I would have liked to know what would have happened if you'd done what I suggested. <evil laugh> Oh well.

Xanathar: Thanks for the update on Fleur, I'm sorry to hear exams are keeping her so busy. Hope they're over soon, and I wish her good luck on them. Thanks for your encouragement too. :) On the possibility of a romantic relationship between you and Fleur, I'm sorry to hear that's been put aside. <grimace> Hopefully it's not forever. :)

Mary: <grins> I could send you so many great baby-related moments of humor from Stephanie and me that have happened in the last few days. I'm sure more are ahead too. Remind me of your e-mail address and I'll speed some your way. In the meantime, I recommend watching Arnold Schwarzenegger in Twins- that's a good pregnancy comedy. Definitely avoid Hugh Grant's Nine Months, it was so bad it made me want to throw up. I'll have to do some research before I can think of any more good pregnancy- and parenting-related movies, I'll try to get some more titles to you next week.

Jackal: Sorry to hear your life's still somewhat down the tubes, so to speak. Hope things improve soon, and I wish you continued good luck with the baby. Thanks for the comments on him and pregnancy, btw. I'll be sure to have some fun by passing them on to Steph. <grin>

**PENDRAGON SPOILERS**
Enjoyed Ripper, which was a very nice spooky episode. Good writing, and I liked the villain's power a lot. The villain himself seemed predictable once we saw his letter, but he was cool again once his power was revealed. Wish he could have hung around longer, he was defeated too fast. The reason I say this is that the dreams he gave Arthur, Mary, and Merlin created some great character development for all of them, Arthur especially, and I'd like to see such again. Oh well. At least the memories of those dreams will haunt them for a while, or should anyway. Great dialogue and writing in the scenes with those dreams btw, I especially liked seeing Arthur and Mordred's banter and the character of the latter in action. Great scripting to the episode as well, and nice developments on Leba. Liked the Illuminati involvement too, and great plot possibilities were created at the end. Overall, a good episode this week, though it could have used some great illustrations to accompany the writing. 8/10 overall. Hope that next week we get back to the Morgana meta-plot, I'm eager to find out what she conjured out of that cauldron. The hiatus while other things are settled has been great, but we should get a little more development in the main plot before the season ends. And I'm sure we will. :) Looking forward to the two-part finale next week (thanks Todd!)
**THESE SPOILERS OVER **

And it looks like this post is over now too. In one part for once. <grins> Excellent. Fun being in here, have to go get ready for the Halloween party later tonight now. Doug and I are going as Wesley and Faith. I have my bag of stakes, my skanky leather ensemble, my makeup, and have been practicing the appropriate grin. <chuckles> And Doug's gonna look just smashing in a blue turtleneck, a black wig, and lots of scars. Heheheh. Hope things go well tonight, especially when the devil woman confronts the ninja (Stephanie's going as a female devil and Keith as a ninja like he always does- probably). Hope you all have a happy Halloween too. See you later, with more replies that I know this post will generate. <grins, waves, and departs>

**RESUME RP ACTION, IN THE MALL OF AMERICA**

The force of evil jerks sped on by Holder's jeers continues to surge toward the walls of Lego-Land, the Ravens keeping most of them back with gunfire, psi-blasts, and spells. "I'll move out of the fire lane when there's a fire!" somebody yells at Doug, aiming a pistol. "You can buzz off!" Several others shout in agreement, and Doug ducks behind a wall as they all fire at him. "Yeah, learn the law!" another jerk screams. "If I'm behind the wheel, I can move at any time. I can be stopped in the fire lane. You don't have to tell me to move out, you stupid traffic menace!" "Yeah, you dumb smartass!" screams a woman with haggard features. "I know what the fire lane looks like, I just didn't know it was there! I was waiting for my friend, she was driving, I had to stop spanking my crying baby to make him shut up because you made me move the car!" "A walk to the soda machine from an empty parking space three feet away will not do me good!" another woman raves. "The fire lane's only two feet away, I can park there! I'm obese and handicapped! I'm handicapped!" "Geez," Doug mutters to Kit as they continue to exchange gunfire with the group. "What is these people's problem? The law doesn't work to suit them, they should just obey it. If they know a wrong thing's been done…" "Just ignore it, Doug," Kit grimaces. "They're dumb, they're also trying to kill us. They're going to die, and soon." Growling, she pumps Steamer and sprays the two women who yelled at Doug with hot water, causing them to scream in agony before Doug fires his plasma shotgun twice, eliminating both. "Go!" Mansfield cheers as he does so, causing Doug to raise his eyebrows. "Hey dum-dums!" the big commando then yells at some of the fire-lane parkers. "I got your fire right here! Want it?" Before they can answer, he fires a WP rocket from his GEP gun into their ranks, causing all who complained about there not being a fire to scream and fall over burning or flee in terror. "And you!" Mansfield shouts at the dumb-founded guy who said the law was behind him. "I got your LAW right here." Mansfield picks up a Light Anti-Tank Weapon and fires it, blowing the protesting man to pieces even as gunfire bounces off his Kevlar vest. "Uh, nice shots," Doug grimaces at Mansfield as he ducks down to reload. "Yeah," Kit says. "Are you okay?" "My Kevlar stopped most of it," Mansfield shrugs. "And the rest is healing even now." "I can make it heal faster," Shap offers. "No problem, man," Mansfield waves him away. "Don't worry about it, I'll be okay." Shap gives him a look of confusion, then shrugs. "Alright, whatever. Orion's better than me at healing anyway, wish he was here." Doug and Kit nod in agreement, still looking slightly confused by what Mansfield said as they go back to firing at the advancing hordes. Lathrop's ball-lightning barrages have meanwhile eliminated the last of the Insane Longhorn Fans, and the Fire Lane Parkers' numbers are being cut too. As two men tossing footballs at the Ravens and screaming at Doug for making them move their truck off the curb and then out of the fire lane beside the curb are shot down by Jammer and Shauna, the rest of the bunch falls back and gets behind a wall they quickly construct by knocking over trash cans, display stands, tables, and chairs. "No, no, no!" an infuriated Holder screams at them. "You have to advance! Don't hold back! Kill these bastards! Kill…" "Terry, shut up!" Senon cuts in, grimacing as Holder turns and glares at him. "This human advance thing isn't working. We're gonna need to try something else." "We can drive our cars up the stairs and then through their wall!" Warren Walker suggests. "Now hold on!" Senon protests. "I'm not risking damaging my expensive new truck…" "Why not?" Warren asks. "I want to end this, man! Yeah, there's no time limit, I can come off AWOL and get my job with Abel back whenever I feel like it, but I want to get this done!" "You better get your truck, pal," Holder adds to Senon, caressing his stick. "Otherwise…" "Hey, I'm a North Austin Wal-Mart Assistant Manager!" Senon snaps, jerking a finger at him. "Don't you threaten me! I'll get you fired! I'm in authority, I…" "Pastor John left me in charge," Holder interrupts with a scowl. "And I've already been fired from your security detail because of that peacenik noble-ass rookie Elder! Don't you dare…" "Guys!" Brenda Falls cuts in. "No time to bicker! Let's just get the damned cars and do Warren's idea already. We can kill each other after we kill them!" Grimacing but nodding agreement, Holder and Senon sigh and then turn to follow Warren, who is already running down a nearby set of stairs.

Nearby on the North Food Court, Keith and Blankenship have been fighting with each other for nearly an hour now, countering each other's martial moves with defenses and ripostes. The feints have been dodged, each man recovering quickly from the kicks and punches that do get through as the crowd around them continues to cheer Blankenship on. "You're better than last time," Blankenship chuckles as Keith blocks his tiger paws punch and counters with a winged horse kick that briefly knocks the wind out of the evil sensei. "Yeah," Keith chuckles as he delivers two punches of his own that are blocked, and a nunchuks swing that opens a wound on Blankenship's cheek. "Considering I met you long enough ago to not remember, I've probably had a lot of experience since then." "I can still beat you," Blankenship growls, ignoring the trickle of blood on his face and swinging his own nunchuks at Keith, who blocks them with his arm and counters with two kicks Blankenship dodges. "Sooner or later, Matthews," the evil sensei chuckles, "I will win!" "Not if you keep treating this like a tournament," Keith retorts, and as Blankenship briefly frowns in confusion, the Ravens' ninja snaps his foot out and karate-kicks his adversary hard in the groin. "That's against the rules!" Blankenship moans, gasping and dropping his weapon to hold his groin as the crowd gapes dumbfounded. "Who said we were playing by rules?" Keith retorts, grabbing Blankenship's arm and flinging him over his shoulder in a judo throw, then delivering a succession of rapid stamp-kicks to the evil sensei's chest that break all his ribs. As Blankenship roars in surprise and agony, Keith then finally drives his adversary's breastbone into his heart with the force of a withering palm blow and leaves him dead on the floor. "Learn better techniques in your next life," he advises Blankenship's soul, then turns to the crowd with a grimace. "Anyone else want some?" "Yeah!" the leader of the Crips snaps, stepping forward with ready Uzi. "I'm the Thriller! No mere mortal can resist my evil, least of all a frigging Chink!" "Chinese-American, actually," Keith shoots back, "and I'm no mere mortal!" As Thriller laughs and takes aim, Keith flicks a shuriken into his jugular, causing him to scream and then fall over bleeding to death. As the rest of the crowd gasps, Keith throws down several smoke-pellets and in the sudden confusion among his enemies leaps up into the rafters above them, throwingÿSMB€€Ùich explode into the enemy's ranks and take out most of those who were yelling at him. Some of Blankenship's students leap into the rafters and chase after Keith, but he stops to kick and punch each of them to a lethal fall, taking them out with even more ease than he did their master. "Didn't that guy ever teach you how to fight a real martial artist?" he asks as he knocks out a spitting Vietnamese girl in a yellow belt and white karate gi who cusses him out and swears vengeance for the death of her teacher as she swings ineffective blows at Keith before she is killed. "Ravens!" Keith then says into his radio after gasping for breath as he realizes he is clear. "This is Keith, I'm fine. I killed all the martial arts guys after me. The people my mom and dad fired too," he adds, looking to where the smoke from his pellets is clearing and seeing their corpses on the ground with the Crips running away nearby. "Where are you?" "We're holed up in Lego-Land, Keith," Tom answers. "We could use your help, but it can wait. Check on Stephanie and Orion, they're off by themselves." "Stephanie's by herself?" Keith gasps. "Right, I have to help her! Must save her, I…" His composure crumbling like a wad of paper, he drops the radio and runs off, ignoring Tom's recommendation for him to help Orion first, and then desperate questions as to whether he copied. A lot of sirens converging on the Mall of America echoes from outside and drowns Tom out as the screen goes blank.

**WE'LL CHECK ON ORION AND STEPHANIE NEXT TIME, END RP AND POST**
Kitainia - [DougElder21@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:01:00 PM
IP: pool-63.52.171.151.dlls.grid.net

****BEGIN RP****
In Warpmind's Library.....
SJ, Kari, Sammael stared in awe at the sheer enormity of the structure which they had just been teleported to.
"My God, it's huge!" Kari exclaimed.
Warpmind smiled, proud that she took such an interest. "About 12,000 square feet. But even that is not enough space. As you can see, I'm going through a bit of a reorganization. Two of my ancestors, Harald and Gunnar, are seeing to that. You....um....you might not want to get in their way. They're very particular about people intruding into their personal space."
SJ wandered over to a bookshelf filled with rows of books. Most of the tomes on the shelves were old and dusty. Several were bound in leather, most were black in cover, and some appeared to have strange runes etched into the spine. SJ noticed one oddly shaped book that struck his interest, and proceeded to pull it from the shelf.
"Hey, this looks interesting. This book's got a face on the cover of it! And it's bound in this weird leather..."
Warpmind, who had been showing Kari some of the new technological gadgets he had recently acquired, spun on his heels and shouted at SJ. "NO! Wait, don't open that!"
The book in SJ's hands lurched, then lunged for the young scientist's throat, the covers of the book acting as lips, ready to tear out his jugular. SJ struggled with the book, grunting with exertion as he wrestled it to the ground, and pressed down on it with his knees, making sure its covers were clamped tightly shut. It fought violently underneath him.
"What the hell is this thing?"
Warpmind strode up to him, and tood the book from beneath his knee. Holding it very tightly in his hands, he quickly shoved it back into its place on the shelf. He wiped sweat from his brow. "Necromonicon Exmortus. I've been having problems with that for one some time now. It just won't learn any discipline!" He stared at the shelf. "Um, maybe we better move away from the 'Black Arts' section of the library...."

Meanwhile, back in the restaurant...
Belzelk looked around. Most of the restaurant was engulfed in flames. He turned to his fellow demons. "Where the hell did the others go?"
Gigamantis shrugged and chattered something.
"A portal? What portal?"
Mantis chattered something else.
"Oh great, just like them. Leave us with the bill. Well, better try and put this fire out...."
Mantis chattered something again, with excitement this time. Belzelk looked at him coldly.
"What do you mean, Angol sneaked away with them?"
****END RP****

**SJ enters the CR wearing orange and black, singing and dancing and throwing candy everywhere**
Everyone ready? HERE WE GO!!!

Happy happy Halloween, Halloweeen, Halloween, Happy happy Halloween, silver shamrock! Happy happy Halloween, Halloween, Halloween, Happy happy Halloween, SILVER SHAMROCK!!!
It's almost time kids.....do you have your masks on?......It's almost time for the Halloween Horrorthon.....

Well, it is once again Halloween, but unfortunately I will not be able to participate in the festivities this year because, for the second time in as many months, I am as sick as a dog. Normally my immune system is better than this. But I've got a touch of the cold/flu, so I'm stuck at home tonight. But it's not such a bad thing, because there are lots of cool horror movies on tonight. God bless AMC and their marathon of old, great horror films (why can't they make films today like Hammer did back in the sixties?).
But here's wishing a safe and happy Halloween to all of you out there who are going to go and cause devilment tonight. Maybe the hairy eyeball of Satan shine on you!

Harry Potter News: I thought it'd be fitting to mention the latest Harry Potter movie news, seeing as this is Halloween, and Harry Potter is the world's most beloved boy wizard. Richard Harris has officially signed on to play Dumbledore (this may seem like old news, but it had been rumored that he had dropped out of the role due to a disagreement over his salary). Also, for you Monty Python fans, John Cleese has signed on to play the Gryffindor's own resident ghost, "Nearly Headless" Nick.
And young, virtually unknown British actor Sean Biggerstaff has signed on to play Quidditch coach Oliver Wood. Since this is a fun holiday, I shall spare you the obvious phallic references I could make from the names "Wood" and "Biggerstaff". ;)

***STAR WARS RUMORS AHEAD!!!***
The movie is years away, and the BS machine is already in full swing. Wanna hear the latest? The current rumor going around the net (which of course will be refuted once the next rumor sprouts up in the next day or so) is that, in the next film, Anakin's "true" origin will be revealed. Apparently, an evil Jedi, a Dark Lord of the Sith, got busy with some slaves of his, in an effort to breed the perfect Sith Apprentice. Anakin is the product of one these horizontal hokie-pokies (his mom was the slave). But that's not the wacky part. The name of the other, female slave, who bore a son? Fett.
Christ I hope this is not true. It most likely isn't, but this would be one horrible way to just screw up continuity.
***YOU CAN LOOK BACK NOW, THE RUMOR IS OVER WITH!!***

More Pointless Movies: At exactly what point did Hollywood run out of ideas? I mean, I know they've been creatively bankrupt for years, but.....it's just all remakes of movies and old TV shows. And franchises, apparently.
The latest utterly pointless remake is over at MGM. The studio there wants to make another Pink Panther movie, and who do they want to play Inspector Clouseau? None other than the international man of mystery himself, Mike Myers.
All I know is, 1) This movie will suck, and 2) It will make an ungodly amount of money. Like that new Adam Sandler movie. That movie looks like it can't stink enough, but I'm looking at the trailers and I'm thinking to myself, "God, that movie will suck but it will make 200 million dollars. Easy."

Oh, and in Star Trek news, Patrick Stewart has officially signed on to star in Star Trek 10, which is currently being written. No word on the final script, but the rumor going around is that this film will be the last for the TNG crew, and it will feature the death of Data.
And why isn't Skippy here to report this? Skippy, where the hell are you, my ridged foreheaded friend?

Caliope: I'm becoming a big fan of Dido. Oddly enough, I came to know of her work through Eminem, after he sampled her song in his hit "Stan". Her lyrics stuck in my mind, and now I own the CD. It's a pretty good album, I must say. I love her voice.

The CD that I'm totally in love with, however, is "Mer de Noms" by aperfectcirle. Goddamn this is good music. Not as angry as Tool, but Maynard is one of the best in the business. I'd listen to this guy sing his grocery list.

Kyryn: **hugs** What would I do without you? You're the only one who can get my obscure WWF jokes! ;)

Escaflowne fans: For those of you who do not like the Fox-butchered...I mean "edited"...episodes of Vision of Escaflowne, rejoice, for when Escaflowne episodes are released on DVD soon, they will be the uncut versions.
And I am beginning to believe that the show IS canceled. They took it off to air that awful "Nascar Racers" show this past weekend, and they're scheduled to show Racers in its time slot again this upcoming weekend. I hope Fox didn't do something stupid.

Winterwitch: Exactly! I'm not a Wiccan, so I don't have any Wiccan beliefs, but I have read the Bible (well most of it. Don't ask me to quote anything from Titus, though! ;), and I do know that the Bible preaches tolerance. So Wiccans are down with me. And the Bible also preaches that one is to have faith....I say that should apply to ALL religions. If you are a Wiccan, you should be strong in your faith, you shouldn't join because it's "trendy". Not that most Wiccans are into it because that is the case. But like I said, it's like Madonna. Madonna practices Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism. Why? Cause she's a good Jew? Hell no. Cause all of her wacked out friends are doing it. It's the "cool" thing to do. I say, if you're gonna join any faith or religion, give it your all. :)

Mary: I don't know, maybe because Wiccans worship the Goddess (is that right? Or am I putting my foot in my mouth?), that it's a whole feminine empowerment thing. I don't know. All I know is, there ARE a lot of very cute women who are Wiccans. Maybe it just worked out that way. All I know is, I'd love to be present for one of their recruitment drives. ;)
And since I understand that you are a cute girl yourself, I'm gonna have to mark you down as well. :) I'm telling you, I may have to convert religions. You think God would understand?
God: Hey, you switched faiths on me!
Me: Yeah, but......God, they're all really cute girls!
God: Oh, well then.....saaaay, when's their next recruitment drive?
Yeah, I'm sure the big guy would understand. ;)

And finally, I finish this Halloween post with my own personal opinon on the scariest subject in the entire world of pop culture.

Powerpuff Girls......Porn? The world is suddenly a very dark, scary place. I'm going to go hide under my covers now.
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 08:47:52 PM
IP: cache-2.spg.va.webcache.rcn.net

*Lynati enters through the curtains; this time she appears to be a cat-like humanoid, heavy dark brown fur and molten yellow eyes. *

I really like this form; but as I never wear it out it felt fitting to use it a costume for here tonight.
Ah, how I do prefer fur to clothes! (so much easier to clean, too.)

Happy Begging Day!
(I really don't feel synced enough to the enviroment to properly celebrate Samhain...Especially with no-one to celebrate with. >sigh<)

Liked Ripper, it was tatsy. Kind of sorry to hear that this Pendragon season is almost over, but I am kind of anxious to
see the other series start.

Oh- I was wondering: at this point in time, is Lucy aware that Graeme is a gargoyle, and vice-versa?
I would've expected Dorcas to give her a rough time about it(she _was_ making fun of his name) if it's still thought that Graeme is human. Especially the way Dorcas was going off about Leo and Una trying to "pass for human".

Warpmind: ....oh. THAT. yeah, that makes sense now. heh. ummm.....

*Lynati sits down to sort through the candy-bag for almond joy bars, quietly complaining about how no theater is showing the RHPS near her. *

Lynati
Kansas City, MO
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 07:26:41 PM
IP: 208.12.249.253

**shivers while entering, but grinning**

Hi guys ... just got done handing out candy for this year ... God, I love Halloween :)
**winces**
Oww ... except for the weather. Especially this year, what with my broken finger and all. Cold weather does not agree at all with broken limbs. :(
But I still had fun ... even when I'm not trying to frak folks out, I can still do it ... I still got the touch!! :)

XenaTrek: I hope when I talked to ya on the phone about the election, it helped. Like I said, a lot of the items are those "flip-a-coin" dealies, where unless you're up on your local situation, you know nothing. I seriously doubt you're up on Lansing's local politics in Orlando ... only thing I really can suggest is this:
If Jaz McKay shows up AT ALL on your absentee ballot ... avoid him like the plague. :)

WinterWitch: Call me odd ... but the two movies I try to catch at least once around Halloween is "Nightmare Before Christmas" and Rocky Horror. I dunno why, it's just the combo I like best. :)

Milady Corax: **catches candy and tosses some back to her with his good hand** Hi there yourself. ;)

**theatrically swoops his leather duster around to leave the room**
Coyote the Bando - [gathering_motor_city_2004@hotmail.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 07:19:24 PM
IP: 216.28.101.2

HAPPY HALLOWEEN!

I'm glad "Ripper" was recieved well so far. I wrote the outline for it over a year ago, and I like that we ended up releasing it on Halloween. It wasn't planned that way, it just happened.

Actually, there's a scene in "Crossroads" where Merlin mentions he has kids. Angela or Broadway are talking about their concern over Gwenyvere's behavior, and Merlin says "I've been there." And that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

We just finished watching "The Omen" in English class today, and I really enjoyed the movie. It was a lot of fun. And the music was great. And David Warner was in it!

Oh well, I'm off to relieve some stress at a Halloween party. I'll be going dressed as Dracula as played by Gary Oldman in "Bram Stoker's Dracula". I don't like the Bela Legosi look. It's too cliched now. Oh, and I'm going as "young" Dracula, not "old" Dracula.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 07:18:07 PM
IP: fe0-0.cache-01.nyc.bestweb.net

**Lady Corax walks into the room dressed as a mechanic, handing out candy to whoever's interested.**

Happy Halloween, everyone! Sorry 'bout the costume...it was the best I could scrounge up in my dorm room. :) I forgot to get my way cool pirate costume from last year, so I'm a mechanic this year...:)

Warpmind> "Different strokes." ;)

Coyote> Hi! **waves and gives him some candy**

Well, I'd better go...I'm waiting to see if anyone comes by trick or treatin' in the dorm hallways...:)
Lady Corax
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 07:16:14 PM
IP: reslife216-176.rescomp.arizona.edu

Happy Samhain/Halloween everyone!!!!!
Lawrence - [craft_celtic@yahoo.com]
Ohio
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 07:12:22 PM
IP: chil-7200-eth0.bright.net

DURN!
Warpmind> Happy Belated Birthday! Hope you had fun on your 21st!
WinterWitch
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 06:51:22 PM
IP: ppp-63-202-222-17.dialup.snrf01.pacbell.net

Happy Samhain to all!
I love this day because you get to gorge on candy and watch all the scary movies you want. Speaking of which, I want to know what everyone's fav. candy is and what movie(s) you like to watch on Halloween. My fav. candy is anything chocolate and the movies I love to watch are the first 3 Child's Play movies and Damien: Omen 2.

Anywho gotta go! I have got to get ready to go trick o' treating! Yes I still do that, but so do all my friends, so I don't feel that stupid.
Bye!
WinterWitch
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 06:49:48 PM
IP: ppp-63-202-222-17.dialup.snrf01.pacbell.net

There'll be two more episodes of "Pendragon" for this season (actually, they're two halves of a two-parter).

And I'm not certain as to what in "Timedancer" gave anybody the impression that Merlin won't have any kids.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 06:41:35 PM
IP: 216.87.46.167.dialup-stl.primary.net

Hmm.

**PENDRAGON SPOILERS**
Great episode. But my intention tells me some future plot threads were laid. I suspect, based on this scenario, that there might be some future manipulation/cooperation between the Illumaniti and Arthur Pendragon. Merlin having a child? hmm. No offense, but according to current knowledge of future (Timedancer), Merlin has no children alive then.

(trying to figure out a polite way to ask this question)How many episodes are left in this season of Pendragon?
**END PENDRAGON SPOILERS**

Ok, I finally made up my mind about whom I am going to vote for president. As usual, DPH will go the round about way of saying whom he will vote for. Think about history and if this person wins, it will make history for the 2nd time a certain thing happened. I still can not vote for any candidate for president without considering a choice of evils.

**BFTS RP continues**
"Why this mountain?" asks Plastique.

*Speed Star HQ*
All weapons and ammo are being counted and then loaded into semi-trucks.
**END BFTS RP for now**
Will DPH's house be able to withstand the firepower of the Speed Stars? This questions and other questions will be answered in upcoming BFTS RP posts.
DPH - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
AR, USA
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 06:00:40 PM
IP: max1-47.cwy.cei.net

BTW guys, it looks like the link to "RIPPER" from the main 'Pendragon' index (not current episodes), is broken.
Ed
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 04:35:37 PM
IP: webcacheh13a.cache.pol.co.uk

(cat pounced and hugged) Ooh the Cali cat. Tis a nice look for you Caliope
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 03:32:23 PM
IP: h2odam.sdccd.cc.ca.us

*pounces in with Kitty ears and kitty tail, blinking her kitty green eyes*

Happy Halloween Guys!!! =^_^=

Sevarious Jr> Oh! The Dido No Angel Cd is great! I reacently gained posesion of it and its awsome, its so spooky and mysterious sounding :P And personaly I would have thought "Here with you" was made just for the Roswell theme song, its just so fitting!

Winterwolf> *pounces, HUGZ back and Prrrs* =^_^= <<When are you going >> Next week actualy, but you never know! A freak blizard er some thin'!!! Maybe?!:P <<you'll just ace the next one and all the rest for that matter!>> I will I will you'll see!!!...well, at least the next one, its oral report and I'm good at those :P <<Roswell>> DID you see that!?!?!? This weeks ep was just awsome!!! Even if everything is falling apart relationship wise, it was just too cool...*drools over topless Max for a few seconds, mops up the floor and keeps raving* Its was just cool, if you havent seen it, go do so! Now!!! Go go!!! :P

Azarah>*Reads Buffy/Angel Spoilers* *blinx* Oh me gosh, is that what's really gonna happen, or are you just speculating?! Xander the watcher!? Isnt having a british accent a pre-requisit of being a watcher? :P And a Guy Slayer?! That'll be cool...but wierd... Gunn the Vampire Slayer...hmmm...that might work :P And I DO think showing old episodes in the middle of the new season DOES STINK! :(

Oooo, I gotta go! I'll see ya guys!!! *the Cali Cat pouces about, HUGZ all and pounces back out*
Caliope
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 03:14:42 PM
IP: 136.145.83.180

***Kyryn peers in for a moment.***

Azarah> Nope, you don't need permission to send people our way. Go ahead and put up the link, but make sure that it goes to the main page of the site so that people aren't totally confused.

Green Baron> A good All Souls' Day and All Saints' Day to you and any other Catholics around!

Happy Hallows to everyone who celebrates!

Later All!

***Kyryn heads off to disembowel some pumpkins.***
Kyryn
Denton, TX
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 02:47:12 PM
IP: 216.35.46.129

*Warpmind enters, seemingly exalted.*
I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT! More precisely, I have had another dentist's appointment today - now there's only one more appointment left, and my molars are in perfect working order again... Jeeze, but I'll be glad to have this business done with. :) On another note... Happy All Hallows, everyone.

Kyryn: You speak well of Detroit steel... scariest thing I ever saw was a Russian-made Volga (yes, it's a car) getting hit head-on by a speeding Fiat. The Fiat was flung WAY over the Volga, which afterwards had to replace one of the headlights... I'm tellin' ya, a head-to-head test to see whether Detroit steel or Soviet steel is stronger could be *really* interesting. ]:)

By the way... liked the Pendragon ep...

Azarah: You'd want to visit me for a *birthday party*? Dear me... be creative, gal! ];)

Lynati: The "So I noticed..." comment? Referred to you *having* responded. ;) Nothing more serious than that. As for how it is over here, well... "Eye of the Storm" was WAY off the mark, to say the least... you rarely find snow in coastal areas, it generally stays in the inlands. And we've never had "Gargoyles" on any TV station - I had to get the show copied by a chap in England. (Thank you once again, Matt...) But except from that... it's much like the US, I suppose. There are bound to be differences, but I figure they're surprisingly few...

Lady Corax: Well... as they say, "Different strokes for different people"... hmmm... with minds like Gside and Christine (and me, for that matter), maybe I should have chosen another phrase there... ];) Personally, I'd *love* a chat with Merlin, maybe try to pick up a trick or two from the old wizard... :)

Winterwolf: I have no problem with people who don't approve of fine tobacco - that's people like you - it's the goddamn ZEALS I can't stand - that's those who go "I don't like smoke, thus you shouldn't either. We need more legal regulations." If I get some time in NY between my flight from Norway and my flight on to LA (a stop on the way seems necessary, anyway), I'll make sure to keep my cigars in the luggage for those hours. Deal? :)

Gunjack Valentine: Heh, no rush - I wasn't planning to send it anywhere just yet, anyway... I'd have to assemble my notes and type'em first, anyway... Where FF1 is concerned... sorry, but when you've already played "Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos", FF1, emulated on a 486SX just doesn't cut it... (Maybe if I tested it on a faster machine... nah...) Do note, though, that what I've seen of the later FF series does look WAY better... (#1 was on NES, later was on SNES, right?) I'll see if I don't get my hiney around to download the ROM... (I've got one SNES ROM so far, and that's ChronoTrigger...)

Azarah again: Can't imagine you need permission to link *to* a site... linking directly to a certain *document*, maybe but the main site? Nah... :| (If so, I'm in deep s***...)

That's it, I'm outta here before the little hobgoblins, gremlins, gnomes, werewolves, vampires, and so on, and so forth, hop out to get me... Have a great Samhain/All Hallows/Halloween, everyone. :)
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@usa.net]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 02:11:39 PM
IP: mp-217-207-30.daxnet.no

*Azarah enters, finally carrying the lovely white stick that likes to pretend to be forgotten*

Hey all!!!
oooh... I am being different... But it's still me!!!
I feel Owen is highly underrated and so... I will post with him today. And besides that, I just figured out that if you click on "image" in the CR writing room and scroll down, there are other people there I never noticed before... (duh!)
Anyway, HAPPY NEW YEAR (to all the celts) HAPPY HALOWE'EN (to those who celebrate such pagan holidays :)) and HAVE A GREAT DAY (to everyone in general!!!)

I had a question, though. Say a certain someone was mucking around and trying to make a web page so they could post some art and their own attempts at manga etc and they wanted to link said site to TGS to say "go here for cool fanfic and art and stuff if you like Gargs as much as me" How would one go about getting permission for such a thing??? Does one need permission?
Just thought I would ask. Hypothetically, of course ;)

Anyway, I will probably post more later!
Love,
Azarah
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 01:34:30 PM
IP: dynrez216-32168.dhr.reznet.uwo.ca

** Niamhgold enters briefly **

Know it's been awhile, but I do have enough time to say this:

HAPPY HALLOWEEN! }:K

Adios!
Niamhgold
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 12:12:01 PM
IP: 206.41.204.68

Thanks Bronx (eats my share of the candy)
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:50:36 AM
IP: adsl-63-207-130-52.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net

PENDRAGON: ‘RIPPER’

***Spoilers and comments***

Started out a little weird, but quickly got very cool, albeit with a fairly standard Hallowe’en formula (worst fears etc.). Will there be a Bonfire Night episode for next week? :)

The episode kind of rambled a bit I have to say. We started out with the promise of a real zoom-in on Leba, but she disappeared until the end pretty much. We also got a hint of some nice TGS-universe Jack the Ripper stuff. And then we got some digging into Merlin’s past hinted at – but that was soon blurred with the nightmares that Arthur and Mary faced, cool also. And amongst all that, Ripper himself – whilst a terrifyingly good villain – didn’t ultimately take too much to kill. Although I loved Merlin’s spell. :) It was a pity really that one strand couldn’t have been focused upon and addressed a little more. All of the aforementioned strands were really nice and well-done, but I couldn’t help feeling that it was a bit of an empty promise – a glimpse at what could some really gripping character stuff but what in fact was dissolved into everything else.

But then Leba and Mary’s resolutions at the end both open possibilities. And maybe Arthur’s fears will be followed up in this ‘Connection’ stuff too. As for Merlin… well, my favourite bit was his vision where Madoc christens Merlin’s son Nicholas II. I’d really like to see this followed up – after all, traits are often supposed to skip generations!

Despite the quibbles above, I really enjoyed this story. I just hope this is the beginning of the arcs here, not the end…
Ed - [ed.reynolds@virgin.net]
London, England
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:18:53 AM
IP: webcacheh05a.cache.pol.co.uk

There is a lot of political talk in my office this past week... and there seem to be one for every party... rather interesting discussion and debate. But rather boring... I don't understand it. *looks are her absentee ballot* I don't even have a clue as to who to vote for.

*exits quietly*
XenaTrek - [ellislis@yahoo.com]
Orlando, FL, USA
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 08:33:56 AM
IP: proxy2a.lmco.com

Happy Halloween Guys! Watch out for things that go bump in the night. :)

XenaTrek - [ellislis@yahoo.com]
Orlando, FL, USA
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 08:23:55 AM
IP: proxy2a.lmco.com

*walks in holding her Jack Skellington plushie, dressed up as Sally*
Happy Halloween CR! *Leaves 25lbs of candy on a nearby table*
Have a fun and safe day, I'm off to see The Nightmare Before Christmas. (heck who needs school when you have these guys? lol)
Bronx
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 06:34:47 AM
IP: spider-tj014.proxy.aol.com

PS, Gunjack, Congrats on Lich, he's a tuffy, as is Kary comin' up.
Gasper
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 04:00:07 AM
IP: 209.83.84.4

Ah....Final Fantasy 4. How I love that game. Wish they'd port it over from Japan. In anycase, probably the BEST use of the fantasy world before they really got involved with things like the cyber worlds of 6-8. Yes, I don't mention 5, haven't played it, probably should, but it don't matter to this post really. Anyway, FF4/2 was next to FF1 one of the most complete games. It had an actual ending. Most to all loose ends were tied up, and for once, a truly happy ending. All but two things...What ever happens to Kain, and Zeromus. Personally, I don't mind Zeromus. I'm not a deep thinker on this aspect, because there is enough proof for me that Zemus did what he did for a reason. But Kain...that poor Dragoon...*Sniff* Sad to see a fellow dragoon off like that...but we are a tough bunch. Anyway, this is all mindless ranting, but I will make this claim, and no one has to take it for gospel or anything. Final Fantasy 4 simply was one of the BEST games for Super Nintendo. (Not "one of the" for extreme nitpickers.) It had diverse characters, freedom in the game to do what ever you want, a massive plot (all with cliche'd and new techniques that added to the genre) but most of all...just a damn fine game.

Enough rambling...I just noticed the post...had to respond.

Gasper - [gasper@icybrian.com]
MN, US
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 03:59:10 AM
IP: 209.83.84.4

A good day today. I'm starting to get the hang of Milkshape, and I made some progress on a Colt Single Action Army model. My only complaint so far is that there mdoesn't appear to be a way to make flats without making a prism and deleting five sides... :P
Oh, and I beat Lich on FF1. Yay me. :)

Warpmind><<hmmm... maybe if I send you the basic idea, you could GURPSify it for me? :)>> I can certianly try... I've got a heack of a lot on my plate at the moment, but as long as you don't need it immediately, send it on over! I can work on it in between FF1 and modeling. :) <<Note that when I say "Super", I don't mean special superhuman abilities, just one mean, big, nasty NPC with a s***load of points and a bad attitude...>> I oughta introduce you Miguel Checa, my Blackop character. 750 points, 200+ skills, and a buttload of custom guns and gear...:) <<But honestly, I played number 1 emulated, almost became ill at the sight (I'd seen so MUCH better CRPGs already), and mentally discarded the whole FF series.>> *Goggles in horror* ...Say it ain't so! For when it was released (ever played Dragon Warrior 1?), FF1 rocked! Sure, it doesn't really have an ongoing story, but it's still cool!
Anyway, FF2 is a VAST improvement. In my opinion, none of the later games quite match up to #2, especially in the character department. The graphics were better than FF3's, and the music was almost as good. *stops himself before embarking on a FF2 lovefest*
...Sorry, but it's one of my favorite games of all time. Give it a try! :P

Azrael><<You know... I just reread my last post, and it comes of as perhaps the most arrogent crud I've seen in a long time.>> Not so! And if I didn't say it already (I can't remember; my brain's fried), Welcome to the room!

Kryryn><<It's Texas. If you don't like the weather, wait a little while -- it'll change.>> But couldn't it change to something cooler? It's a day or two from november, and I'm leaving my window open all night! :P <<Think of doing that and someone popping a flare nearby --- owwww becomes the operative word.>> Are you speaking from personal experrience? *shrugs* ...I still wanna try it at night. Just make sure no one has a Q-Beam Hidden under their jacket...:P
<<...I've heard the audio version done by the BBC and liked it, although I seem to remember that I disagreed with one or two voice choices.>> Was that the one where Gandalf sounded like a British bartender? :)

Lawrence><<This certain person just wanted to start something with me cause he belives I have been looking at him in that way, which I haven't.>> Ah. Glad everything worked out... :) <<Well atleast you don't pistolwhip people or firebomb houses of Homosexual/Bisexual people.>> Why should I attack them, when there are people like DC in the world? *Blasts DC through the wishbone with a .50 Hogleg*
That's for driving me nuts with vertices all afternoon!
*Turns back to Lawrence* ...Yup, I'm a violent borderline sociopath, but not a BIGOTED borderline sociopath. :D

*Checks his watch*

Well, it's 1:40. Beddy-by time...

"She sighed and she swore
that she never would decieve me
But the Devil take the women
For they never can be easy!"
-Whisky in the Jar
Gunjack Valentine - [miphsingleton@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 02:43:58 AM
IP: 209-223-253-72.ausa.net

::dirty luks and smiles::

As I said before I mentioned the topic, kiss my ass if you don't like it.

You need to know that I am God. :oP
jackal
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 01:08:22 AM
IP: ac934d6a.ipt.aol.com

**Winterwolf looks in and stops for a visit**

Hi everybody! The big meeting is next Wednesday so I'll have details then on what lies ahead.

SOROW> Cheers to the football team and the dance! The music really does tend to be one of those rough spots in these functions. The worst can occasionally grate on your nerves. I would love to see your pumpkins! It sounds cool! **hugz** ^_^

Warpmind> Nothing special you say? Oh well. Though you did get that fine Dominican cigar... I'm going to stop myself there. I dislike smoking in all forms but that doesn't mean you should stop enjoying them it all! ^_^ Just felt like passing that info along. I'm happy since it sounds like you had a good time.

******BFTS - RP******

Deep in the tower three figures are involved in a complex spell.

Winterwolf feels energized as the spell binding most of his strength and abilities to Equus no longer continually drains him. Uriel is casting a powerful spell to transfer the curse as Equus had trained him to do so. Finally Equus would be free.

******END BFTS - RP******

I'm tired. Good night everybody!

**Winterwolf needs to leave for the night**

Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 12:04:45 AM
IP: 206.15.120.92

I just remembered this--
Jayden: <On Gargoles Sunglasses> As some have mentioned before they are worth every penny. I have a pair myself and I love 'em. Instead of just cutting down on brightness, they reduce glare and so you can see in lower light without necessarily having to take them off. On top of that they have something like a 5 year limited warranty <they won't replace them if you take a 5lb slege to them or something>. If you're thinking about them I suggest them whole-heartedly.
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Monday, October 30, 2000 11:57:15 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

**drags self into the CR**

Update: Got my x-rays for my appointment with the orthopedist on Wednesday ... weird thing is, I looked at them and for the life of me I can't find the fracture in my finger ... ah well, maybe the ortho can figure it out. They took away my codeine, though ... just got motrins now ... ah well.

Yes, XenaTrek ... I've come down off of it. ;)

XenaTrek: you've made some excellent points there. Although I know about the details of your experience on the other message board in full detail, it's still quite a bit similar to what's happened here. I know Rbyy well enough to say that he definitely can handle troublemakers such as those you encountered there ... no such folks reside here. Right, people? **looks around expectantly**

Kyryn: :) Yeah ... that was when a car was a *car* and not a dressed-up shoebox on wheels. (apologies to all those who drive smaller cars and enjoy it)

Milady Corax: Good to hear the flooding's a ways away from ya ... oh yeah, and I hear ya about the wet jeans. Not fun. :)

*sigh* 'Tis Angel's Night once again ... the news s going on about Detroit's anti-arson patrol for Oct. 30th (the infamous Devil's Night for the longest time). What makes ya really mad, though ... is that Devil's Night primarily started during Coleman Young's tenure as mayor of Detroit, and he *never did a single damn thing to stop it!*
Why? Because if anyone did, he'd make accusations of racism right and left. Far as he was concerned, the city could've burned to the bloody ground ... so long as it wasn't whites lighting the matches. This might be shocking for folks to hear, but it has to be said: the first black mayor of Detroit was equally as racist as any KKK member, albeit in the opposite direction.
And Detroit is still trying to recover ... it may never.

**sighs and leaves, nursing his hand**
Coyote the Bando - [gathering_motor_city_2004@hotmail.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Monday, October 30, 2000 11:04:12 PM
IP: 216.28.101.61

Ripper is a good turn in the Pendragon series. Read it if you wish others
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Monday, October 30, 2000 09:51:01 PM
IP: adsl-63-207-129-173.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net

***Kyryn steps in early***

Well, Buffy may be a repeat this week, but Pendragon is not!

TGS now presents...

Ripper

Written by Todd Jensen

Something hunts the night....

***Kyryn steps aside to avoid the rush.***
Kyryn - [<<--clicky, clicky!]
Denton, TX
Monday, October 30, 2000 08:58:29 PM
IP: denm3-37.iglobal.net

Just a quickie...

Warpmind> That's the one! Of *course* I'd want to spend an hour chit-chattin' with ol' William Wallace. Forget Arthur, Merlin can wait...bring on the "Scottish rebel!" :) I think he'd be so darn interesting to talk to, and I'd love to hear whatever he's got to say...even if it was about the weather, or the sky or something. Scots Wae Hae! :)

**Lady Corax skips out of the room, humming "Scotland the Brave" on her way out...**
Lady Corax
Monday, October 30, 2000 08:17:44 PM
IP: reslife216-176.rescomp.arizona.edu

*Lynati Enters*

don't really have much to comment on today, just checking in.

Kyryn: Thanks. that helps. :)

I feel a better; cold's almost gone....also, i went back and looked over the plots of my stories, and decided that the main, important things could not possibly be mistaken for anyone else's; given the crossover aspect, it would be impossable. yay! I feel original again!

Warpmind: I don't understand. What was that last comment referencing to? I'll take your advice; I sorta forgot that you weren't even on this side of the big pond. What's it like over there, anyway?

I just changed the blade on my utility knife, so here's hoping I don't gash my hand open while working on my project tonight. One blade accident of a CR patron was one too many.

*Lynati Exits, the curtains rustle closed behind her.*
Lynati
Monday, October 30, 2000 07:55:49 PM
IP: 208.12.249.253

**PRIZE RELATED**
Someone in a very recent post mentioned the name of the movie and sequels that I gave a clue for. Unfortunately, I am not sure if that was a direct answer. 24 cybercookies are up for grabs.
**END PRIZE RELATED**

**WORK RANT**
15 straight days of work and counting. As promised, here is a list of signs that your company is NOT employee-friendly:
1)there are a several more temps at the company than full time employees
2)you have only 20 minute lunches
3)working overtime almost always includes Sundays
4)you work more than 12 days straight without a day off
5)the company is ISO certified but does not ask people to read books 50% of the time before doing a job
6)you can earn more money working at a fast food restaurant than working there
7)the best security is an attempt at security
8)if OSHA came by, _______
9)the company cuts down one person's overtime, and asks someone else to stay over
10)on Monday, you do not know if you are working on the weekend
**END WORK RANT**

I finally unsubscribed to winvite after I used Internet Explorer on their website.

Oh yea, I forgot to claim top 10 this time. better late than never.

welcome all newcomers.

Daphne, who would I want to meet that is living? hmm.

Subjectivity argument is sounding similiar to a chapter in a class I took called 'Oral communications' and the chapter was how people communicate and what it takes for communication to occur.

happy birthday to Warpmind.

**BFTS RP continues**
DPH finally arrives at mount Cannon. DPH pulls over the car.

Frost asks, "Why did we stop?"

DPH replies, "I thought everyone would want to stretch."
**END BFTS RP for now**

DPH - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
AR, USA
Monday, October 30, 2000 07:09:32 PM
IP: max1-70.cwy.cei.net

I actually like the fact that Buffy and Angel air reruns during the season, it makes the actual season last longer. There is also the fact that, because this week they're showing reruns, I get to go see family that I don't get to see very often, and since I'll be seeing them this week, I get free steak <yum... steak... :)>. Not that B&A are more important than family, but I don't take random trips when there's a new episode comming on.
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Monday, October 30, 2000 06:59:25 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

I will confess that I don't mind the fact that tomorrow's Buffy Halloween specials will both be reruns; sometimes it's kind of fun to simply sit back and watch one of the familiar earlier episodes for a change. It does give you a bit more time to ponder over recent developments and think over them - and it's also fun to go for the "stroll down Memory Lane", so to speak. And I quite liked both the Halloween episodes in question (from Season Two and Season Four respectively).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn@ninenet.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, October 30, 2000 06:38:35 PM
IP: 216.87.46.140.dialup-stl.primary.net

1 more day till Samhain!!!!

Gunjack Valentine> Well atleast you don't pistolwhip people or firebomb houses of Homosexual/Bisexual people. This certain person just wanted to start something with me cause he belives I have been looking at him in that way, which I haven't. He just wanted to probably see if I really was.
Well I guess that is about it, Oh yeah before I go, Hey Green Baron!!! Haven't seen you on lately, hope to see on sooner or later
bye
Lawrence - [craft_celtic@yahoo.com]
Ohio
Monday, October 30, 2000 06:13:15 PM
IP: chil-7200-eth0.bright.net

Azarah> Re: End of the line for Buffy >> I've mentioned it last week with a quote from an article. The later part where someone else will take over is news to me... I have yet to read anywhere.

And yes it is a bummer that they're not airing a 'Halloween' episode this time around and instead showing the re-run from the last two season.

XenaTrek - [ellislis@yahoo.com]
Orlando, FL, USA
Monday, October 30, 2000 06:08:05 PM
IP: user-37kaoua.dialup.mindspring.com

*Azarah waltzes in, with a silly look, and collapses in a chair, heaving a contented though somewhat feverishly ill sigh.*

Hi all. I feel really sick but I am in a really good mood so.. maybe I end up having a balance somehow??? or something:)

You know what I just noticed????? Azrael<>Azarah<>Azrael<>Azarah... hummm... iiiiiiiinteresting...
Well... I will continue to post in nice dark orange with the image of Delilah (until I figure out how to put my Azarah image into the CR... IF I can even DO that... and maybe noone will get too horridly confused :)
Azrael> I think everyone appreciates your beautiful quiet good sense. Thank you.
Daphne> I was thinking about who I would would spend my hour with if I could. I don't know. If I was feeling deep, maybe the Dalai Lama, or Aung San Suu Kyi. Maybe visit all the people involved in the Middle East peace talks, to satisfy my predisposition for wanting to save the world. Maybe someone I have never heard of, who doesn't speak my language, just to maybe make a new friend. Maybe my father, because he is awesome and my only relative in this country. Maybe my grandmother, because she is older... and I worry about her. Maybe my Sensei's wife, to see why she wants a divorce. Maybe I would visit Warpmind and have a teeny tiny birthday party :) You see, I would have to think looooong and hard about this one...
Or maybe I would just visit my friend who lives in BC, because I miss him so.
But if I could meet anyone, living OR dead, it would be my twin, who died before we were born, just so that for an hour, I could be complete..

But you know what REALLY stinks???
They are doing that daft thing where they show old episodes of the Buffster in the middle of the new season, just to tick me off!!!!!!! Do any other Buffy and Angel fans get incredibly annoyed by this??? Grrrrr...
Just to make up for this week:

****POSSIBLE MAYBE UNCONFIRMED BUFFY/ANGEL SPOILERS*****
And what's this about Buffy leaving at the end of this season???? NOOOOOOO!!! You can't have Buffy without Buffy!!! And I heard Xander is gonna be called as a watcher and Faith is gonna die saving Buffy and another Slayer will be called and it will be a GUY!!!! (Who is hoping it's Gunn????? oooo, me, me!!!!)But I didn't think men could be slayers... Oh well...
And Angel's real name (before he was vamperized) was "Liam", isn't that CUTE??? Ha ha! And I figured out how the lineage goes... Angel made Dru, who made Spike. Apparently Joss made a bit of a boob when he said Angel made Spike.
*****END POSSIBLE MAYBE UNCONFIRMED BUFFY/ANGEL SPOILERS****

*********USELESS KNOWLEDGE*********
Someone a while ago asked why Skim and 2% milk costs less than homogenized or whole milk... and I HAVE AN ANSWER!!!! (drumroll.....)
It's because of the fat content in the whole milk, not the amount of processing that has to be done. The farmer will use the fat skimmed off milk to make butter, etc, and if they sell the milk whole, they don't get the extra income they would get from the butter, therefore it is sold for more to make up for this loss!!
TAH DAH!!!!
********END USELESS KNOWLEDGE*******

That's it for now.
Love,
Azarah - [sanchinwalker@hotmail.com]
Somewhere in the Great White North
Monday, October 30, 2000 05:19:52 PM
IP: dynrez216-32168.dhr.reznet.uwo.ca

Azrael> Yes, much better. Thanks. :)
David G. - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Monday, October 30, 2000 03:46:44 PM
IP: 198.215.20.3

Howdy.

David: Is this better? :)

Jackal: That was completely uncalled for. First: when someone is in authority (IE the administrator for a room like this) and you don't like what he's doing, you tell him privately. If that isn't an option, you don't completely dress him down, you should be polite. Second: Forgetting what he SHOULD have done, he did what he did, nothing is going to change that now. That being the case, what did your post accomplish? Did it stop the flame war? No, that had already been stopped. Did it make those involved with said flame war feel better? Probably not. One bit of wisdom that I've heard is before you say anything you should evaluate it three ways: Is it good for everybody, failing that is it good for you, and does it accomplish anything of which you can be proud. If the answer is no, then don't say it. You might want to think about that. Realize: 1) I didn't yell, and 2) With any luck this will prevent this kind of post from being needed in the future <therefore it answers "yes" to all three.>
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Monday, October 30, 2000 03:12:27 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

Comments on Pendragon - I'm just getting back into this after an extended leave of absence; I must say, I'm impressed overall by the directions taken in Pendragon since season 2. The series finally seems to be standing on its own feet, rather than living in the shadow of the Arthurian legends (as season one did) or Gargoyles (as was the case with season two).

That said, I do have some concerns, mainly with the portrayal of Mary Sefton. The character seems a little _too_ self-centered and whiny, to the point where I have difficulty liking her at times. Furthermore, she doesn't seem to have any role in the story other than as Merlin's love interest. Her character could be improved greatly, IMHO, if she were given a chance to be in an episode where Merlin doesn't even show up - give her a chance to develop as her own person, rather than as Merlin's tag-along.
Jonathan Lang - [dataweaver42@yahoo.com]
Monday, October 30, 2000 03:12:25 PM
IP: 207.233.110.2

Anyway, hey yall!

Baby News- He seems to be getting more and more active, which I like, I can't wait for him to get here, I'm ready to play n stuff!!

Official Stuff- Your body is really getting ready and you may notice that you have more and more contractions that seem less and less like practice! Baby is continuing to get bigger! Four pounds seven ounces and a length of 16.8 inches. The hormones from the placenta are starting to activate the milk in your breasts. Did you know that the baby urinates almost a pint a day! (Once again sumthin only a parent could be proud of...)

RL crap- I wish the baby's mom would just go away, no one has ever made me *this* upset and the only reason I put up with it is because of the baby. I wanna find sumone else before I leave her, because I don't want to be alone. If I could leave right now, I wouldn't be like, "I'm sorry this isn't working." I'd be like, "This ain't workin, we're driving each other crazy, but I'm more crazy because you're just insane and I'm gonna leave now. Call me if you need any money, don't drag me thur the muthaf***in court system cause I'm tired of that shyt, and if you do, I will bust you out for being an unfit mother, for doing acid while you were pregnant... umm..., goodbye! By the way, quit smoking!"
But crap happens, I guess...

Blair Witch 2- I'm just gonna say what I said about the frist one even though they're totally different...
WTF?!?!?! Hey, let's stay up all night, but drink wayy too much and expect not to pass/black out!! okaayyy....

Kiss my ass if you don't like this- Punishing and fussing at everyone in the CR because you failed to do YOUR job, is outta line! A flame war starts with 2 ppl.. Two! Then every1 else with an opinion jumps in afterwards. I know, I caused my share, and jumped into a few.... You stop these 2 ppl, like you should have been doin to begin with, then the majority of the CR will cease to be in this massive uproar. I mean, is this *that* unclear? I know for a fact you don't do your job, cause like I said, in the past, I've caused my share of problems and nothing happened. Fussing at and treating evey1 like their children is WAY outta line! And guess what..., outta line is sumthing I also know about..., so I know it when I see it.

So that's my suggestion, and I've been in the CR soo long that I remember when you became the administrator, and this is the knowledge I'm passing down to *you*. Don't punish and treat every1 like children because of sumthing you failed to do. You see sumthing outta line, you address it right then and there, don't let it explode to what it has! I know you've done that on muitple occasions, the other administrator done that, read sumthing that just WAS NOT acceptable and ignore it. You, as the "master", want to prevent a flame war, stop it as soon as possible....., I trust you come in here more than just once a week.

If you'd like to make an example out of me, then by all means do! But also know I love this CR, I love the ppl in it. And I will come back.... blessed be. Peace. And what not.
jackal
Monday, October 30, 2000 02:47:19 PM
IP: ac81748f.ipt.aol.com

***Kyryn steps in.***

Coyote> Ah, Detroit steel! Gotta love it! I miss my '78 Camaro (all steel body -- no plastic crap). It took a hit in the passenger side once from a Caddy doing about 30 mph -- big dent in the passenger side, shoved me across two (luckily) empty lanes of traffic and I walked away from it (and the car was still driveable).

Selanit> Congrats on standing up for free speech even though you disagree with the speakers issues.

Juliaexia> Welcome to the room!

Mary> I'd second Gunjack's recommendation of Bill Cosby's stuff on Parenthood. I think that Dave Barry may also have a book out about the 'joys' of pregancy, birth, and parenting.

Lynati><Does anyone out there host other fanfic series?> You might want to check out www.fanfiction.net
BTW, don't sweat the idea thing. It's just the Gargoyle's Collective Subconscious at work again. Seriously, many people have come up with the same ideas entirely independent of one another. I believe it tends to happen because of the way certain threads were left open in the original series.

Guardian><Anyone out there know why On Holiday Pt. 2 seems to end in the middle of a paragraph.> It shouldn't. The copy that is on there is the full version. Your system might not have loaded it fully. You might want to try reloading it.

Gunjack Valentine> <Texas SUCKS! It's the end of October, and it's still uncomfertably warm outside! The weather hasn't even had the decency to change from summer to fall yet! > Shhh. The weather gods might hear you. *grin* Would you rather have the 100+ degree temps back again? It's Texas. It you don't like the weather, wait a little while -- it'll change. <Pupil dilation and night vision> It kicks a** until you get any bright source of light shined near you, then your vision is royally screwed up. Think of doing that and someone popping a flare nearby --- owwww becomes the operative word.

Jaden> <Pupils dilated> I've had it done a number of times. Very funky. <Gargoyle Sunglasses> Okami (my husband) has a pair. They are very high quality -- originally intended for aviators and shooters.

DPH><Ok, this temp at where I am working told me that she filled out an application to work there FULL-TIME and ended up working for a temping agency instead. Is that not illegal?> It depends. If she signed up with the temp agency and agreed to take a position of temp-to-hire then she would start out working for the temp agency, work for them a specified amount of time, then become permanent with the company. That's the way that temp agencies usually work. They get a certain percentage for each temp person working for them and they're not going to let you go until they get their money's worth. Now, if she applied directly to the company and ended up working for a temp agency without having signed up with them in first place, then she would have a grievance. The other thing is if she signed up with the temp agency and simply said that she wanted a 'full-time' job, then they will simply get her a job temping for company at 40 hrs per week. 'Full-time' does not equal 'permanent' position with a temp agency. I hope that helps your friend.

Greg> I hope that things go better for you soon. I'll email you later.

Azrael> Welcome to the room and well spoken!

Mandolin> Hiyas, Mandi! Good to see you posting again, even if it is briefly.

Paul> Regarding Japan and Shakespeare: Actually there is an active interest in Shakespeare in Japan. Akira Kurosawa, considered one of the world's greatest screenwriters/directors, produced "Ran," which is a direct adaptation of Shakespeare's "King Lear." Kurosawa changed the setting and characters of "Lear" from English history to a setting in 16 century feudal Japan and changed the daughters to sons for a correct cultural context. The Japanese love historical drama, tragedy, and comedy, and, as such, they admire Shakespeare's works in that they see many similarities to the Japanese Noh and Kabuki dramas. Many of his works have been directly performed or adapted to the Japanese stage because the Japanese enjoy the underlying themes of Shakespeare's work. (By the way, I don't necessarily consider Shakespeare the 'end-all-be-all' of English Literature nor the 'fount' from which it springs forth.) I enjoy many works from different sources, but I find that in each case a story must be judged within the context that it is presented. A live performance of Shakespeare, for example, is different from reading the work, or even different from reading it aloud. Thus a purely written transcription of Xenogears would be interpreted differently than the combined visual/textual presentation that occurs in the game format. That interpretation would also be colored by the format that the person who is doing the judging prefers. Some people are more visually action-oriented (i.e., TV, movies, CCGs, etc.), others are passively visually-oriented (i.e., reading), and still others are audibly-oriented (i.e., listening to tape or radio).

On that note, I must say that I am looking forward to seeing "Hobbit" and "Lord of the Rings" when those movies come out. I've read the novels and liked them, I've heard the audio version done by the BBC and liked it, although I seem to remember that I disagreed with one or two voice choices. I've seen the animated versions of them and liked some parts and disliked others. Although I must say that I tend to be a passive visually-oriented or audibly-oriented person as I love 'theater of the mind' where my own imagination is free to roam.

BTW, click on my name link to find some information on Shakespeare in Japan

Warpmind> Happy birthday!

Bronx> You got snow! (Pouts) We usually just get ice in Dallas. I like your uncle's work.

Daphne> Congrats! <spending an hour with anyone> I'd probably spend it with Arthur C. Clarke. He has written so much in so many fields that it would be wonderful just to sit and talk about many things.

Later All!

***Kyryn steps out.***

Kyryn - [<<--Shakespeare in Japan info.]
Denton, TX
Monday, October 30, 2000 02:32:01 PM
IP: 216.35.46.129

*Warpmind enters, a faraway, happy sheen in his eyes.*
I just enjoyed a VERY good cigar... a Dominican... strangely enough, I've got this weird craving for a cigarette... ;)

A collective Thank You to all who congratulated me on my birthday. (But why were there so many suggestions that I might not survive it?)

Winterwolf: No, I don't think 21's a special birthday in Norway... lessee... 16's age of consent... 18's when one may get the driver's license, and legally buy beer or wine (i.e. low-alcohol beverages)... 20's the age when one can buy stronger liquor... hmmm... Nope, doesn't seem like anything special... ]:)

Lynati: So I noticed... :)

Daphne: You're constantly stressed? *Hands over a small crystal-on-a-string.* Here - whenever you're stressed, hold this in front of your face, clear your mind as best you can, and watch it. You may wind up a completely mindless drone, but at least you won't be stressed anymore. ];)

Lady Corax: You'd want to spend an hour chit-chatting with William Wallace? As in "Scots, Wae Hae"? *Blink* Oh-kay... I'd figure most here might want to pick King Arthur or Merlin, or one of that lot, and yet, here you pick a Scottish rebel... ]:) Still, there *are* interesting aspects to it...

Gunjack Valentine: *Sigh* I've kinda given up on the whole idea about that Supervillain... hmmm... maybe if I send you the basic idea, you could GURPSify it for me? :) (I'm having BIG problems with the skill system...) Note that when I say "Super", I don't mean special superhuman abilities, just one mean, big, nasty NPC with a s***load of points and a bad attitude... As for FF2, hmmm... I think I played it once... But honestly, I played number 1 emulated, almost became ill at the sight (I'd seen so MUCH better CRPGs already), and mentally discarded the whole FF series. Then, by a stroke of Fate, I saw FF7, and I started wondering how the games between 1 and 7 looked... So I've seen a few of them, though I've never really gotten around to playing them... Shame on me, I guess. :|

Well, that's about it, I guess... Later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@usa.net]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Monday, October 30, 2000 12:31:46 PM
IP: mp-217-174-121.daxnet.no

Hi ya'll
I'll keep this short and sweet (well, short anyway):

Azrael> (Is that how you're spelling your name this time around?) Howdy. Nice to see you finally say something. Don't use dark red. It's hard to read on my monitor at work.

Christine> Please don't leave the comment room. Just skip past posts in yellow instead. I'd miss you terribly.

Paul> First, did you get an e-mail from me recently? Yahoo was acting kind of strange when I sent it, and I'm not sure if it went through. Second, assuming you didn't get it, and for the benefit of everyone else involved in the discussion, my point about the differences between TRPG and CRPG really was just thta a TRPG has more story freedom. The part of my post following that statement was my opinion based on the point.

The first part is irrefutable. It's was a statement of fact.

The rest was just opinion, and didn't particularly need to be refuted. Lots of people prefer CRPGs to TRPGs.

I sort of agree with most of what you said (or at least I can see where you're comming from). I think you're misinterpreting some of what I said, or we wouldn't be arguing so much.

Valentine> Well, only one reply to my religious rantings, and it was positive. That's better than I'd hoped for. Glad to see that I'm not alone in the vast abyss of new age philosophy. :)

New Agers> That was just a little joke. Please don't get offended.

Bye ya'll.
David G - [david_goodner@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX, USA
Monday, October 30, 2000 09:11:40 AM
IP: 198.215.20.3

*wanders into the room slowly not too sure what to expect*

Daphne > Re: NHS >> Congrates on your position, my brother has taken an active role in NHS in the last year and half as a member, I don't think he wants a position on the board. I'm also not sure if all NHS are alike, I do know my brother helps out with commmunity service every other week. Oh... not too sure how long you have been here... since I haven't been here for a little bit myself... just in case... welcome to TCR.

Re: Christine's Leaving?? >> Eep! I realize I don't know you as very well Christine, but have been told a lot of nice things about you and your work. And I can tell right now that you will be severily (sp?) missed if do choose to go. Your friends and fans are here and everywhere, and we'll support you in whatever decision you choose to make.

DPH > Re: Unsubscribe Issue >> If you unsubscribe to the 'list' you should have received a confirmation of the unsubscription. If the 'list' still sends you email, and you are unsuccessful in getting a reply or response from the 'list'... you can take them to the BBB (I belived there is an internet version of it)... since it is like solicitating and telemarketing. Otherwise if you have a block option on your account, you can just block the email address.

Re: People making other People Leaving? >> I have no idea what was going on in this room for the last two weeks cuz I haven't been here in the last two weeks. I have heard from a few people about what has been going on in here hasn't been too good. Nor have I had a chance to fully read the entire room, I've only skimmed it this morning. I am having my share of having an individual posting harsh and negative comments on a message board I am on... in fact I am to the point of leaving that board all together due to this individual. I have been told that if one were to 'ignore this individual and he will eventually go away due to lack of attention'... that may work on some people. However if an individual is continually finding a way to mark your mind and heart... I say it is the administrative and/or moderators job to internvene. I have yet to see that happen on the message board despite the continous effort of ignoring his post and sending emails to the webmasters and moderator. To make matters even worst, this individual has taken a liberty of once in the blue moon emailing me his comments and suggestion. If anything, I say this individual is harrasing not only me, but everyone on the message board, no one (especially the admins, webmaster, and/or moderators) are doing anything about it. Now how this story affects this Room, I'm not trying to tell Robby or the other Admins how to do their job. Posting rules about Flamewars and use of excessive language are good ground rules. But if the alleged poster is indeed 'harassing' any person or persons... another step may have be carried out. Thank you.

Coyote: >> Better lay off the codine a little bit, you're starting to fly. *razberries*

Movie Review! WAHOO! Sorry... a little too much caffine, either that or Coyote's codine is starting to spead. *ahem*

Book of Shadows: Blair Witch 2: Hmmm... with my harsh critism of the first one eventhough it was made on a $30,000 budget... and I said they did do 'acting' when its supposily ad-lib. BW2 is a 'big budge' movie, therefore should some 'real' acting. The movie started out ok for the first 20 minutes... and spiraled downhill in about 100 MPH and 180 Degrees turns into confusion and weirdness. The highlight(s) in the film is the lesser use of excessive cursing... the first one, the curse words are every other word in the sentence. In BW2... its every 2nd or third sentence. The other is my friend's favorite highlight, heavy music soundtrack. I also can't believe a lady who sat in front of us brought her children as young as 8 year old into the place (I think the other 3 were 10 to 13)... BW2 not only has 'excessive' cursing, there were nudity (tons of it), sexual situation (including an Orgy and homosexualism) and gore. I guess everyone has their own set of moral judgment, I certainly won't take my chidren to see an R-rated until they are old enough and that I have seen the picture first. Oh... Coyote knows this... it takes a *LOT* to scare me... and this is not a scary movie (Coyote... J did not jump this time like he did with "What Lies Beneath" film, so I know it wasn't 'scary' enough). In my book... its a renter, and not worth spending the $5 to $10 to see the film. If you do choose to see it... enjoy and maybe you can explain to my friends and I what the movie is really about.

*looks at the clock* Wow! Time flies when you're having fun. Better start working and not play on the internet. Later. *exits room*

XenaTrek - [ellislis]
Orlando, FL, USA
Monday, October 30, 2000 07:45:30 AM
IP: proxy2b.lmco.com

*Valentine enters, looking a bit dispeptic and carrying several tattered 3d models*

Ugh... I've had heartburn for the last three hors, and there's not a glass of milk in the house. :P My sister spent most of the day sleeping off her breakdown last night, and I got to help her with an english paper all evening. It was kind of fun, and she's now vastly impressed with my writing style. It's not every day that you get to impress your kid sister...
The other good point of today is that my Milkshape registration code came in. Now I can finally start work on those awsome *KICK-BUTT* model designs I've got stacked three deep on My table! ...Or at least I can after I learn to use the dad-burned software. :P Talk about User-Unfriendly... It took me all afternoon to figure out the basic manipulation cammands, and I'm still feeling my way around some of the features. It'd help if the program at least had a tutorial... :P *Shrugs* Oh well, I'll get it eventually.
Anyway, here I am at the end of the day, gazing at the cool, calm pool that is our CR...

CANNONBALL!

Azreal - Good comments, and welcome to the inside of the madhouse. You gonna stay awhile? :)

Jaden><<Has anyone heard of Gargoyle sunglasses? I saw some and they looked rather cool (a little like Brooklyn's), rather expensive though. $115.00...Must come with dinner and a movie or something like that. ;P>> They be worth every penny! The reason they cost so much is that most of them are made out of polycarbonate instead of regular plastic. Most of those glasses will stop a 12-gauge birdshot load at ten feet... Police like 'em as eye protection, since they look good enough to wear in public. <<Actually I couldn't resist looking in a mirror and seeing my eyes almost completely black.>> Ain't it COOL!?? I look creepy enough with sunken, sleep-deprived, Been-staring-at-a-computer-too-long eyes, but adding the solid black effect pushes it over the edge! ;D *thinks a bit* Hmm, I wonder what dialation would do for your night vision? *evil plots form*

Warpmind><<Some food for thought, TGS Pendragon related... since Merlin's been around for so long... is the Sorcerer's Appendix intact?>> You... are a BAD man... ;) <<I'll take your word, then, and trust that the abridged version will suffice... (but I'm telling you, that SuperVillain character is REALLY hard to figure out the skills for...)>> For Supers, the Supers or Compendium I books are REALLY helpful. I've got Compendium I, but haven't really used it much as I haven't gotten around to playing an alien or Super. :P
The reason I say you don't NEED any other GURPS materiels other than "Lite" is that the rest is just detail. Compendium I has a few rules modifications, but they're all optional; Still, it's got near on to 200 pages of Super, Psi, And Occult adds and disadds (most of which are REALLY cool), plus about 150 new (and highly esoteric) skills. You can build a Super with just Lite by making up rules for the abilities, but he probably won't be compatable with the "official" rules. *shrugs* then again, who cares? :D
<<As for that dragoon bit... I didn't know.>> ???
<<(Heck, who is Edge, anyway?)>> o_O ...Philistine! Download a FF2 emulator IMMEDIATLY! *calms a bit* ...Edge is a ninja prince from FF2, noted for his ambidextrous sword fighting, his awesome throwing abilities, and his immature outlook on life. Along to Kain, Shadow, and Rydia, he's (in my opinion) one of the most fun and useful characters in ANY of the FFs. I'm combining him with Shadow (the FF3 ninja; has a much cooler attitude) as the basis for one of the characters in Dragoon. <<But you didn't answer my question... will you be taking design commissions?>> You wanna pay me to make models for you? I'm flattered, but... I kinda suck at it right now. But yes, I am open to modeling ideas. Bring 'em on!

Patrick Toman - Good comment on Subjectivity. *adds it to his quiver of arguements*

Spacebabie><<...Please in the name of Greg Wiesman himself...>> Whoa... We're invoking dieties now? ;)

dAPHNE><<For a college application essay I have to write "If you could spend one hour with any living person [i assume that means both human and of this universe :) -- Daphne], who would it be and why?">> *Thinks for a while* ...Hmm, can't think of anyone... :P If we could go into the past, I'd wanna meet Teddy Roosevelt. Cool guy, great president.

*********************REBUTTALS!*****************************

Paul - To start with, I'm gonna try something a little different. Instead of replying to every statement you make, I'm going to try to reply to each idea once. That way, maybe we can cut down on the "See Aboves" that we've both been throughing in profusion... :P It's mostly my fault, 'cause I hit the same ideas so many times last round... Oh, and sorry for the "Bull Puckey" bit. It was late, and I was tired and more than a touch loopy. :P
I'm sorry to see that you've had ebnough of the "Absolute truth arguement, as I think I was just begginning to see your point. :P Oh well, maybe we can find a public forum some time...

Now, let's see if this time I can remain both civil AND humble.
EN GAURD!

<<His points are refutable.>> Ah. From that context, I must agree that they are. My apologies! :) I was refering to the freedom aspect, and I thought he was too...
<<Its also a valid opinion to say that Console Role-Playing Games can provide true Role-Playing.>> How? The only roles you can play and actions you can take in a CRPG are the roles and actions laid out by the designer. True spontiniety is impossible. With a tabletop game, I can play any role and do anything I want any way I want, assuming I don't bug the GM. There is a difference in the amount of freedom, though the value put on that freedom is subjective.
<<What you claim to be facts are your opinions, based on the limits of Console Role-Playing Game technology.>> It is true that the value of the additional freedom of a tabletop game is subjective, but the existence of the freedom is not. The freedom was what I meant to refer to as inarguable fact. I'm pretty sure the part about tabletop games having more opportunity to be personal is also objective. I've adapted my storyline to take advantage of my player's personality before, and it's a VERY interesting twist.
<<Tabeltop Role-Playing Games can't provide three dimensional visual world experiences>> This is true, but you can get around it if you're an artist... :) <<...that allow you to have a more immersive feel than Tabletop Role-Playing Games.>> I'm not sure about the immersive part... Oh, that's opinion. Right.

*Thinks a bit*

Hang on... We're really comparing apples and oranges, since we're comparing one game on one console to ALL the games Greg or I have ever DMed or played... That's not quite fair.
Really, let's just say that the CRPG has the advantage of a finely tuned storyline and actual visuals, and the tabletop games have the advantage in flexability and (infinite) replay value. Can you agree with that statement?
<<Street mime... Err, no, I didn't know. And hey, who says such people can't tell good stories?>> Well, the medium eliminates any speech or gesture languages such as AMESLAN, so they can only convey visual impressions... and even then, they are limited by the shape of the human body.
Such severe constraints make it hard to tell a particular story.
<<If you haven't experienced a story yet, you can't claim you're better and/or will be better.>> True. Cheerfully retracted. :) (but I'll still be thinkin' it!) ;D
<<Checking XENOGEARS out *is* playing it, that wouldn't be spoiling it.>> I thought you meant the fanfics... :P Of COURSE I'm gonna check out the game! *Looks back at his previous post* Oops! That DOES look kind of stupid, doesn't it? :P Dern cut n' paste...
<<They have senority if they had any influence on whatever Japanese works provide those cliches.>> True, but it's hard to say with certianty whether a similarity is due to imitation or just independent ideas. Since I don't know of any similarities in classical Japanese art (Heck, I don't even know ANY Japanese art!), I can't say. Still, I doubt a work as modern as Xenogears can't divorce itself from something as widespread as Shakespeare...
<<And William might not even be/might not have been much of an influence in Japan.>> Given the differences in style, I'd say you're probably right, at least in the previous centuries...
<<Naah. It'd take too long to explain, and if you're going to argue stories of Shakespeare's I haven't read to me, well, I guess the same thing holds for both of us. We need to read more.>> Too true. :P
<<First of all, you're not chipping away open-mindedness.>> To reject logic, Truth, the stimuli of the senses, the laws of science, and even communication is to open the mind so far that everything falls out. I don't think you're quite that far, but you HAVE either rejected or come close to rejecting all most of the above...

********************LOGICAL STUFF*********************
Paul - I know you said you were bored with this debate, but I wan't to try something. Rather than respond to your post line by line, I'm going to try to condense your points and my objections into as basic a form as possible, thereby making replies less time-consuming and dull.
If you still don't want to reply, well, more's the pity...

1) <<All viewpoints are subjective, but people have the right to exercise these subjective viewpoints to keep themselves free from harm.>> The problem with this statement is that it lacks force on the personal level. There is no reason given why I should respect someone's subjective opinions, especially if I stand to gain by a lack of said respect.
The Government can attempt to enforce respect of others by punishment, but to do so is hypocritical as they must violate MY subjective beliefs in the same way that I violated my victim's. Since all points of view involved are subjective, there is no logical reason to do so.
A person still has the right of self-defense, but no one is obligated in any way to assist a person in need. If the government tries to force *this* obligation, it falls into the "conflicting subjectives" trap mentioned above. In addition, there is no reason why bystanders shouldn't "cash in" on crimes if they stand to gain from involvement.

I'm aware that you yourself do not suport crime, but I cannot see a logical way out of the above conclusions.

********************END LOGIC************************

In the interests of brevity, I decided not to respond to the rest of the logical arguements. I really do hope you can see your way clear to rebutting the one statement above...
And if not, I'll reply to the "10 Rules" responces tommorrow. See you then. :)

One, I love.../
Two, she loves.../
And three, she's true/
To me...
-Karen Casey
Gunjack Valentine - [miphsingleton@hotmail.com]
Monday, October 30, 2000 02:16:53 AM
IP: 209-223-253-157.ausa.net

You know... I just reread my last post, and it comes of as perhaps the most aragent <sp?> crud I've seen in a long time. Hmmm... Well, there's nothing to do about it now but watch as people laugh at me. Oh, well. Live and learn.

Of course, you'd think one of the things I'd have learned by now is just to keep my trap shut. Oops.

Az
Azrael - [azrael_2099]
Arlington, TX
Monday, October 30, 2000 12:30:52 AM
IP: 198.215.20.210

Sevarius Jr.-- <I'm talking about, go back and read Azrael's post (I believe it was last week), cause IMO, it's just about the gospel truth.> Thanks for the kind comments, but I really think that just about anyone here would have thought of the same thing eventually. And it was this week <slightly after the wipe, I think.>

Those who've said "Hi": You'll have to forgive me, I can't remember everyone's names yet, but thanks for the warm welcome. I must admit to being a little on the laconic side when I first get into a new situation, but don't think I've left just 'cause I don't post for a while.

Paul: I don't mind you referring to my post at all, that's actually kinda what I was hoping would happen. I can't tell <mostly 'cause you can't really hear tone of voice over a posting board like this> whether you were angry or not. I hope not. I just try to calm people down when things start to get out of hand. My name <real, not handle> means "harmony" after all.

Later, All.

Az

Oh, yeah, when I was looking through the colors I couldn't find Maroon. I guess this'll do if we can't get closer... <grins expectantly> No? Oh, well, I'll live... :)
Azrael - [azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Monday, October 30, 2000 12:09:31 AM
IP: 198.215.20.210

**Lady Corax floats into the CR on a mesquite tree branch.**

Coyote> Hi, there! Thanks for thinkin' of me. I'm far enough away from the flooding that there was no harm done. :) Although I've never seen some of these creeks out here with so much water in 'em before...it's kinda cool. Even if I have to cross flooded streets to walk back to my place! Jeans don't dry out very quickly, either...:)

Kaioto> It was great getting to talk with ya on IM earlier tonight! :)

Well, so long for now, all! See ya'll around! **Lady Corax floats away.**
Lady Corax
Sunday, October 29, 2000 11:35:32 PM
IP: reslife216-176.rescomp.arizona.edu

Hi to all. My school football team won our Homecoming game and we're going to playoffs for the first time in fourteen years. The dance was great (except for the crappy music) and I just spent five hours carving pumpkins. They all have gargoyles on them :)
SOROW
Sunday, October 29, 2000 10:52:09 PM
IP: a010-0128.dll2.splitrock.net

*Lynati Enters, a funny expression on her face*

I've just been going through some of the old comment rooms (I am up to the third one and I plan to get through all of them by 2002) and I am disturbed by something...
Okay, I wasn't even so much as a lurker before this summer, okay? Didn't even know this place existed.
But certain ideas that were being bandied around by people several years ago are ideas that I actually used in my stories...the Dingo/Robyn thing, for example.
It's just freaky, okay? it's like...I think I'm being original, and then discover that it's already been done. or considered, at least. *Shivers*
I guess I just don't like the thought of people, if they ever read my fics, thinking that the plots I _did_ come up with on my own are just rip-off's of someone else's idea. Especially since it's not uncommon for me to work fixed scenarios into my work when i really like them- but they're meant to be recognized as such. Credit where it's due, and all. I just feel that I might not be given credit for what I DID do.
(Although, I guess it's not really an issue until I'm able to post my work. But still...)

*Lynati stumbles off, mildly upset and mumbling incoherently*

Lynati - [Lynati_1@hotmail.com]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 10:24:26 PM
IP: 208.12.249.253

**enters zapped on codeine**

Wheeeeee ...

Update: Worked for the first time since the incident ... light stuff, only answering phones and such. Finally have a date for my visit with the orthopedist (Nov. 1), so hopefully this ordeal will soon be headed for an end.
The Halloween party went off well ... gonna *have* to post some pics, 'cause I got some doozies, including the SUW that could have been ... Xanatos vs. Maeve, one on one! (Well, not exactly Maeve ... my cousin dressed in a very goth-Celt outfit with green hair ... and a very big stick ... got a great fight pic ... :)

Lady Corax: Hey there, girl, I was worryin' about you too while you were concerned about me ... heard all about the flooding down there and was wondering if you guys had been washed all the way down to Mexico! **returns hugs** How close are ya to the danger zone?

Daphne: hmm ,,, you want our own personal opinions? OK, though mine probably won't jive with yours ... because I have a tie, two living people I'd like to meet. One is Stephen Coonts, my absolute favorite military novelist ("Flight of the Intruder" rocks!) so that I could learn more about his perspective of Vietnam and discuss the current US military with him ... he's kinda like Tom Clancy with more combat hours. ;)
The other guy is Stan Lee. Because he *is* the Man. :)

**jogs out of the room** wheeeeeeeeeee ...

**is very drugged up right now ...**
Coyote the Bando - [gathering_motor_city_2004@hotmail.com]
Algonac, Michigan
Sunday, October 29, 2000 09:17:09 PM
IP: 216.28.101.60

Oops, forgot one thing...

Daphne> I had to write something like that for a scholarship essay...except it was, "If you could switch places with anyone in the world for an hour, who would it be and why?" Well, I wrote an entire essay on how I would switch with Kevin Nash (the seven-foot wrestler guy formerly known as Diesel), so I could be super-tall for a day (I'm super-short in real life). I even went into detail about how I'd reach for everything on the very highest shelf in the kitchen just because I could, but I'd have to watch myself when I walked under a doorway...it was one fun essay. :) Really, though, if I had to spend an hour with anyone (can they be from previous centuries?), I'd pick William Wallace, just so I could see what he was like, even if we couldn't really talk because we speak different languages. Unless we could magically understand each other, which would just make it so totally cool...am I rambling again? :)
Lady Corax
Sunday, October 29, 2000 08:52:43 PM
IP: reslife216-176.rescomp.arizona.edu

Coyote> Hey, there! Hope you're feeling a little better each day. I'm very sorry that the accident had to happen to ya, but I'm glad it wasn't any worse than it was. Although it's still really bad, and I hope that the medication and all helps! And that you get better soon!!! **hugs** And you're welcome for the card...'twas nothing, really. I feel bad that I haven't been able to check in here since last week...

Also for Coyote> >>... at the line at a red light, looking across the way at some little punk kid in a beater Camaro who thinks he's hot $#!t or some pudgy guy with a midlife crisis driving the latest Corvette to make up for some inadequacy ... I *live* that line, as I slam down my '79 Caddy's gas pedal and leave that other doofus eating my dust. *grins maniacally*<< **big grin** I think you know that I feel the exact same way! :) I'm proud o' ya. :)

Christine> Don't you dare give up on the room! I'll miss ya too much!

Something like 15 or 16 days until Pokemon: Revelation Lugia comes out on video here in the U.S. (or Pokemon the Movie 2000, as it was called here), or so I've heard...

Well, hope everyone has a nice week! I'll be back around again soon! :)

Lady Corax
Sunday, October 29, 2000 08:46:16 PM
IP: reslife216-176.rescomp.arizona.edu

Oh, how the world turns.

For what it's worth, I'm not furthering anything here, I'm just gonna say something to someone cause it needs to be said. And how I hate talking in riddles.

Paul: I'm going to apologize to you. I was being my typical smart ass self (you can add "hole" to the end of that if you want), and I was, to make an understatement, a bit unfair towards you. To which I apologize. I'm sorry. While I never threatened you (wait, can't talk about that), I was a bit harsh towards you, and I'm sorry. I should not have done that. And hey, how about this--I think you've gotten the raw end of the deal involving certain events in here of which we can not speak. Honestly, I do. So, I am sorry for mocking you. You have every right to blow me off, and that would be perfectly understandable, but I am sorry for treating you the way I have.

As an aside, I would like to commend Azrael for being not only the most level-headed person in the CR lately, but for also being the wisest. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go back and read Azrael's post (I believe it was last week), cause IMO, it's just about the gospel truth.

Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 08:37:57 PM
IP: cache-2.spg.va.webcache.rcn.net

Thanx for the 'grats, all.

[doles out celebratory and/or consolatory hugs to all who want them]

Warpmind>> oh, I probably will be stressed, but that's ok... I'm in a perpetual state of stressed :)

ok, here's a fun topic that may have been done before my time... For a college application essay I have to write "If you could spend one hour with any living person [i assume that means both human and of this universe :) -- Daphne], who would it be and why?"
anyone wanna share?

Happiness!
Daphne, apprentice-wordsmith
Sunday, October 29, 2000 08:36:30 PM
IP: dialup-63.214.195.178.philadelphia1.level3.net

Sevarious Jr.><<loves wicca 'cause it has cute pagan girls>> *blushes* Why thank you! ^_^ *hands you a nice big Samhain pumkin cookie* ^_^ (Just noticed that post from last week. Me and my silly weak eyes!) ;P
Mary Flanders
Sunday, October 29, 2000 07:48:30 PM
IP: adsl-63-195-144-108.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net

Warpmind- Happy 21st dude!
Gasper - [gasper@icybrian.com]
MN, US
Sunday, October 29, 2000 07:05:10 PM
IP: 209.83.84.4

*Lynati Enters*

Warpmind: I have replied to your email; point of fact, I did it before coming here today. Our computer lab closes at 5:00 on saturdays, and I didn't have time to check my email.
hmmm....I guess I owe you a "happy birthday", too. ^_^

Christine:DON'T GO!!! It wouldn't be right. not right at all.
In fact, it's sooo not right that I am am going to cease being logical, and just sit here and stare at you until you agree to stay. (hey, if it works for Dogbert...)

*Lynati sits down to stare.*

Lynati
Sunday, October 29, 2000 06:41:42 PM
IP: 208.12.249.253

**DPH enters the room, looking sleepy.**

I had to work this stupid. Either I am going to be this coming Saturday or a week from this coming Saturday.
DPH - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
AR, USA
Sunday, October 29, 2000 05:54:56 PM
IP: max1-9.cwy.cei.net

*steps out of the mirror in a corner of the room*

Heeeeeeeeeeeere's Guan

Gside> I still have to try that index-generation-thingie, but I guess you can consider it done that way - including the number of stories an author wrote. And I won't calculate that at run-time - more likely I'll save that into the database as well and update that information on demand - easier and less time-consuming this way.
<<the others are short enough that I don't notice any delay>> Well - you certainly don't talk about an author's story-list - especially for authors with a heap of stories.... those are among the longest pieces of HTML-Code I've seen.

And now I've got a call to all authors:

If you've got an account in the Fanfiction-Archive on GFW and didn't already mail me / reply to my EMail - please contact me with the following informations provided:

username: [The username you use to access the Fanfic Archive]
realname: [Your real name. This won't be used in the archive and is just for informational value in case of EMail-Contact - and to connect your informations to the data in the Database]
EMail: [Your EMail-Address. This is what will be published on the author-information-page in the Archive]
Homepage: [The address of your homepage. Visible to the user in the Archive (like the EMail)]
Alias: [Your alias you want to be known as to the fandom the name your stories will be connected to. Defaults to your real name if left empty]

Please do NOT send me your Password - I'm not interested in it, and I don't need it.

Some of you have more than one account - if so, please tell me which are your accounts and which one you want to keep - I will then merge the stories in the accounts to the one account selected.

So then - please help me to get the fanfic archive ordered. Oh - and a further note: The Archive is still up and running, so no need to stay away from it - it's just not THAT ordered it ought to be :)

*turns back towards the mirror and leaves the same way he arrived*
Guandalug la'Fay - [Guandalug@gmx.de]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 04:59:04 PM
IP: dial-142178.hrz.uni-dortmund.de

**Winterwolf steps in**

Hi everybody! ^_^

Caliope> <snow> When are you going Cali? If it's before December then outlook is doubtful! But then again you never know... ;P <last saw snow 10 years ago> That's too long! :( <failed> **HUGZ** Well then you'll just ace the next one and all the rest for that matter! :) <Roswell> I saw it! WOW! It was better than I hoped! Michael got some great things to think about and his character went though some development! The distance between him and Maria is shrinking! ;D Now there are possibly four more out there!?!? O.O Holy Caliope! LOL! Must see tomorrow's on time! The future tense Max and plot is one not to be missed! <the net connection at the library was being a pain> **HUGZ you again** At least it was just a one time deal! <Things I Learned From My Mother> I've gotten plenty of them myself! I think that's why it's funny to me! LOL! ^_^

Warpmind> Happy Birthday!! Does anything special happen when you turn 21 in Norway? Over here that is the "legal" age. Well enjoy and Best wishes on a wonderful day from your me to you!! ^_^

Christine> Please don't leave! **Winterwolf walks up to you and gives you a single white rose** Pretty Please say you'll stay! **looks at you with teary wolf cub eyes**

Daphne> Congrats on being the new PR officer!

Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky> Well I want your life turning around getting back on track for good times and happiness! Best of Luck on that happening soon!

Welcome to the newcomers...

Mandi> Welcome back! :)

DJ> Thanks Daniel for being able to put things in a moderate and fair way. I hope your message reaches everyone here. It is good to see you again.

Christine> I'll be finishing up my email to you right after I post this!

Bronx> I'm jealous! You got some snow flurries? I'll have to make some snow later ;)

Love, Luck and Lollipos!

**Winterwolf scampers off**

Winterwolf - [awinterwolf@excite.com]
Bronx, NY
Sunday, October 29, 2000 03:53:36 PM
IP: 1cust247.tnt52.nyc3.da.uu.net

Just wanted to let everyone know that Im still alive.. and.. it's snowing out, so

*opens the CR window slightly to let some of the flurries in to share for all*

=) hope everyone has a good day and remembered to change the clocks.
Oh! I'm also shamless plugging for my uncle, he's a photographer in Seattle, clicky to see some of his work!
Bronx
Sunday, October 29, 2000 02:43:26 PM
IP: spider-wg043.proxy.aol.com

Paul> I accept your apology. And I'm willing to put this whole thing behind. As I mentioned I'm quite tempermental. But I'm not always like that.

I'll post again later when I have something to discuss. Later all.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 02:10:20 PM
IP: fe0-0.cache-01.nyc.bestweb.net

Warpmind- Happy birthday, and hopefully many more to come
Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 02:06:09 PM
IP: spider-tr014.proxy.aol.com

Paul - Upon reading your post, I must revise an opinion I arived at 4:00 AM, halfway through the monster post.

You ARE rational! Excellent! :D
We still disagree on nearly everything, but at least we can discuss it. I'm ellated!

Real (long!) post later!

"Who will by my sweet red roses,
Two blooms for a penny..."
-Oliver!
Gunajck Valentine - [miphsingleton@hotmail.com]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 01:52:10 PM
IP: 209-223-253-70.ausa.net

There are times when I feel my sanity is sneaking out of the jar and trying to get back into my head.
Shoo Shoo go away I don't nee you right now!

GB>>Before you ship off eat chocolate LOTS of Chocolate, My brother's latest message he wrote that he is willing to sell a very vaulable body part for a snicker's bar.

Warpmind>>Happy Birthday::wheels in a cake

Its also Setsuna Meioh/Trista Meioh's birthday... AKA Sailor Pluto.

Christine, Please in the name of Greg Wiesman himself please stay.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Spoilers for Digimon and Cybersix~~~~~~~~~~~

Digimon: a port opened up in New York City and Mimi was able to visti the digiworld. She brouth Micheal another Digidestined whos digimon is Betamon. Very good develpoments on Yolei and I wonder how many other digidestined are there in America.

CyberSix: Very good werewolf story in an animated series. Not many could pull that off, besides Gargoyles. I liked how Lucas went through it. i also liked how Jose wasnt in this episdoe. Very good developments on Six/Adrien. Next week reminds me of the dead moon circus
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~END Spoilers~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well see ya around
Love and Cheesy Neo's
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Sunday, October 29, 2000 01:16:52 PM
IP: user-37kaos6.dialup.mindspring.com

Only 236 days left until The Gathering 2001. Have YOU purchased your membership yet?

On the subject of subjectivity > Just by the mere act of accepting "everything is subjective" to be a true statement, one has proven it false, for how can there be truth or falsehood if indeed everything is subjective? My subjective truth may be your subjective falsehood, and the only absolute for the universe is chaos.

Similarly, if one begins to question the symbols used in communication (i.e., the words) themselves, it becomces impossible to formulate any type of discourse between individuals. Humans are symbol-using animals. Between any two individuals, there can be no communication on any meaningful level without a mutually shared agreement on the symbols that are to be used to express abstract ideas, concepts, and emotions. Language in any form (written, spoken, hand gestures, etc.) by its nature evolves based on arbitrary decisions about what symbol should be adapted to represent both the world that is observable with the tactile senses - such as temperature, colors, other living creatures - and the concepts which are constucts purely of the mind - such as love, hate, truth, falsehood.

Language itself is the lowest common denominator of debate. I, speaking only English, cannot carry on a meaningful discussion of world politics with a person who speaks only Russian. And similarly, one cannot engage in argument when the meaning of the words within the language are themselves in question. If I adapt that the symbol representing the color of the sky is the word "blue" and another person wants to say it is "banana", the two of us cannot communicate, and indeed it would be pointless to engage in any attempt.

Once either party of a debate has stuck a feather in their hat and called it macaroni, the debate is over, for the absolute last vestige of "common ground" - language itself - has been lost.

And that's all I have to say about that.

:: lurks back to S8 room where the talk is about more pleasant things like The Gathering 2001 ::
Patrick Toman
Sunday, October 29, 2000 11:29:51 AM
IP: ac919f90.ipt.aol.com

Robby... PLEASE READ:
As there's only one 'flame-ish' post left, and one where the person deserves an apology, decency requires I respond to it. Anything else addressed to me from, say, Azrael, for instance, is civil, and will be responded to sometime... Late today or sometime tomorrow. I hope you'll understand about Greg's commentary though, because I don't want to argue that with you. And I also hope you understand why I'm referencing your Post now.
Although I have to say that people aren't getting a knee-jerk reaction from me and that I'm not giving one, I'm remaining calm and defending things constructively and fairly. That was inaccuracy in reference to me that I needed to mention.
The 'capitalizations' were so you'd look at this and so you'd understand why Greg may later respond to me and why, if you notice, I'm responding.
Oh, and Joxter was holding a fair debate with me. I did not percieve myself under any attack from him, therefore I would like to continue speaking to him about what he brought up.
With all clear now...
Greg 'Xanatos' Bishanky:
I'm sorry. I thought you were someone else. I wasn't lying, please note the words 'If you're who I think you are'. If I didn't make that clear enough, I'm sorry.

Paul

"........."-Jowy Atriedes
SUIKODEN II
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 09:47:28 AM
IP: 205.morristown-01-02rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

Warpmind> Sorry. Here's a birthday present though (gives you a box of truffles) As soon as you open the book eat em since Zorkian chocolate doesn't last long when exposed to fresh air
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Sunday, October 29, 2000 09:42:58 AM
IP: adsl-63-207-128-252.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net

*Warpmind enters, pondering.*
Well, today's my 21st b-day... :)
Some food for thought, TGS Pendragon related... since Merlin's been around for so long... is the Sorcerer's Appendix intact? ];)

Mary: Just gave the thought some air. :)

James: They're not *my* robots. I think they might belong to Wilek, but I'm not sure... they were installed before my time here.

Lynati: Sent you an e-mail... why haven't you responded yet?

Gunjack Valentine: I'll take your word, then, and trust that the abridged version will suffice... (but I'm telling you, that SuperVillain character is REALLY hard to figure out the skills for...) Did I drop Les Miserables and Mark Twain into the "Smut" category? Hmmm... well, Tom Lehrer *did* say that "if correctly viewed, *everything* is lewd"... ;) As for that dragoon bit... I didn't know. (Heck, who is Edge, anyway?) But you didn't answer my question... will you be taking design commissions? ]:)

Christine: If you quit this room because of one jerk, you're unlikely to be forgiven, y'hear? Do stick around, please...

Congrats, Daphne. Hope you don't get too stressed out in your new position. :)

Welcome, Azrael. May your stay be long, happy, and free of that ever-annoying sanity. :)

Well, that's about it for now... See you guys later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@usa.net]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Sunday, October 29, 2000 09:24:59 AM
IP: mp-217-204-123.daxnet.no

*Begin Part 2 of Post*

"As I've already attempted to point out, this statement is bull puckey. If you disagree, than give me a reason why I shouldn't murder some punk kid tomorrow."

Already been done.

"If you can't without appealing to Right and Wrong, you must either conceed the point or advocate murder."

Already been done.

"There is no third option."

Yes, there is. I already said what.
Although one must wonder how much is done from caring and how much is done because people agree with the views of those who want to 'avoid pain'. Either way, humanity's society is based off of subjective truths and emotions, and there's no arguing that. That itself is a subjective viewpoint but its based on the objective fact bit we can only subjectively classify.
Thus, real absolute truth may still not exist even in facts.
And if you want to argue emotions, keep in mind that the emotions exist, but they are only subjectively classified under human minds.

"I'm glad you recognise SOME form of truth... I was half afraid you were going to declare me a figment of your imagination."

But even these objective truths are only quantified by the human mind subjectively. Example, quote from NEON GENESIS EVANGELION in relation to Shinji Ikari.

"There are as many Shinji Ikaris as there are minds. The Shinji Ikari in Asuka's mind. The Shinji Ikari in Misato's mind. The Shinji Ikari in Rei's mind. The Shinji Ikari in your father's mind."-Laliel
NEON GENESIS EVANGELION:
SICKNESS UNTO DEATH, AND...

"Well, here's your chance to correct the messups! :D I've just taken positions directly opposing yours, and fired a broadside into your arguement. PLEASE fire back. :)"

I just did.
The argument also took up a lot of my time and became a nuisance, so that's going to be my last response to at least this. That this Comment Room is not even a primary interest is one reason... If this was taking place in, say, a public forum that's a primary interest, that might be different.
I will, however, argue more concerning the '10 Commandments of Arguing' to Toku.
But first, Revel. After I finish with you, of course, though.

""*Switches to singsong voice* Buuuull Puckeeeey... I'm sorry, and I'll retract that statement cheerfully when you rebutt the above arguements. I *EAGERLY* await your
reply!"

Well, you got it.
Retract away or don't as you see fit.

Revel: Christine's stories' values are based off of interpretation. 'Tasteless romance stories' is a defense against her stories for the sake of other stories... The 'nicety' of other stories. Therefore, if I have to be somewhat un-nice to defend my own stories, that's okay... As long as 'un-nice' merely falls under 'disagreement of opinion'.
I'd like to stop talking about this, though, as Christine did request it be done.
And finally...

Toku:
This I got from a friend.
Direct mIRC Quote:

"<Jerm> Interesting points, considering he's repeating himself in a lot of them. Also, I'm sure I could prove most of them wrong. But at least I can agree with his finale, after the 10 points.
<Jerm> 8.) Adapt to your environment, or die off. (Darwin’s Theory)
<Jerm> That's one I could start with.
<Jerm> Winning an argument is about controlling the environment, not subverting to it."

I agree with all of what Jeremy says, save perhaps the finale. I don't remember my stance on it, but I believe it was covered before.
Anyways, I'm outta here.

Paul

"This is the me that exists in your mind, Shinji."-Asuka Langley Sohryu
NEON GENESIS EVANGELION:
THE WORLD ENDING
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 08:29:05 AM
IP: 205.morristown-01-02rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

Gasper:
I wanted to finish this here so it wouldn't be taken outside the Comment Room.
Azarah:
The 'anime' versus 'cartoon' business...
Yay!! :) Someone actually isn't treating me like I'm a complete moron in this topic. Okay, neither did Robby, but I don't know if he ever agreed with me. And hey, you might've covered my points better than I ever could have. :)
William Shakespeare...
Shakespeare's not difficult to read for me, and it makes sense to me easily. What I've seen has been shallow, however. Maybe stuff like this was good then, or maybe it was only good because it was entertaining. Entertainment does not always equal good.
Although I have Doug's words about Shakespeare to take into account; maybe he wasn't just 'good' for entertainment.
His plays haven't been forgotten because they were good then and are useful for historical and literary studying, it seems. If people deify them, they may do so because they don't think that the modern world is capable of being deep and/or philosophical... Which I know is not true. Deep modern writings exist, you just have to find them.
I don't think XENOGEARS is so great because its new. I think its so great because of its incredibly in-depth characterization and philosophical/analytical/message-type stuff.
Comparing Shakespeare to Japanese stuff, however, I'm not sure is fair... Japan has a different culture than ours. They may not bother with Shakespeare much. William Shakespeare's writings may just be writings that people might pick up, same as any typical book in a bookstore in the United States. Even if Japanese people bother with Shakespeare a lot, they have their own old literature. Don't credit too much Japanese to Shakespeare when if it was inspired by something else may have come from elsewhere.
And parallels to Shakespeare's work doesn't mean they have anything to do with him. Similar stories can exist; people can have similar ideas.
Yes, Shakespeare stories are classics. There are many other classics. But that doesn't mean that no one can do better; that doesn't mean they're end-all-be-alls, they were just good enough to survive the test of time.
GSide:
Logic isn't constant. Neither is science, or for that matter, anything.

"People create science to place limits on their own imagination."-Jeremy Combs
mIRC Chat

The same can be applied to many things people use as constant. Also many common terms. For instance, the color 'teal'. It was given the name 'teal' but that's not, in absolute certainty, what it is. Its only 'teal' because the majority have chosen to call it that, someone else could call it something else and be correct.
'Darwin' applying to 'argument':
Good points. Maybe not all, or any, stuff I haven't considered before, but I like the way you're saying it. :)
Ad hominems: Thanks for explaining what it means. :)
Now that I know what it means, I can say to Toku Kaioto I most certainly do not do that.
Joxter:
Debate time.
Kitainia, this'll be your chance to judge my debating style and tell me where you think I could be nicer, what's okay, and where you can give me various input on whether or not my debating style can stay as is in this Comment Room or whether it might disturb the peace.
Because Joxter has most definitely brought up a topic that I'm going to be debating.
I'm also going to drop the 'paragraph insult'. That may be taking things too far and could be an inconvenience.
DRAGONBALL is not one of the best series' ever. What it is is trash. I'd use 'c-r-a-p' if I said that word. All it is is plotline and fight after fight after fight. There's little or no characterization, and some dirty stuff as well (I define dirty stuff by any graphic stuff that is meaningless). Its been around so long because there are many people who will go for non-serious entertainment just to maybe not have to deal with thinking about stuff in Japan, most likely. I do know that many Japanese people are more intelligent than United States people, so they can differentiate between 'relax and escape from stress' and 'good'. It makes money, so people produce more.
And I don't think I can insult DRAGONBALL and get away with it, I know I can. Its not something that's a matter of 'getting away with'. Trash is trash. DRAGONBALL is to most intelligent, well thought-out stories like GARGOYLES, NEON GENESIS EVANGELION, BREATH OF FIRE III, XENOGEARS, CHRONO CROSS what DIGIMON is to VISION OF ESCAFLOWNE. Lousy and shallow, yet for some reason considered stupendous in the United States. To DIGIMON versus TENKUU NO ESCAFLOWNE and DRAGONBALL versus anything, many people need to learn something critical... 'Entertaining' does not mean 'good'.
I find it horrible that people attack XENOGEARS if the criticism isn't well-structured, and even if it is I'll still defend the Game unless I agree with the criticsm. Kitainia's criticism of XENOGEARS is an example of well-structured criticism.
And I have good reason. XENOGEARS is very intelligent and has more characterization than any story I've seen save perhaps NEON GENESIS EVANGELION.
DRAGONBALL is, as I said above, just fight after fight with little or no characterization, dirty stuff, and that at least has a plotline to match. The differences should be obvious.
Lynati:
I'm not obsessed with XENOGEARS.
And if you're attacking the logic in my arguments... They're logical, in the way logic is applied to reality often. Many people have been able to understand my words before.
Green Baron:
I missed this last reply, I'll reply to it now.
Your comments on absolute truth...
If it exists and we're not privy to it than among us there is no absolute truth but that absolute truth is nonexistent, therefore my point still remains. "There are as many truths as there are people."
Robby:
I said what I've *seen* of Shakespeare is shallow. I believe I have corrected that. If I haven't, nevermind. If I haven't, I just did, though.
Gunjack Valentine:
When you argue against an absolute truth, as Warpmind said, you do indeed create an absolute truth. Well, possibly. It bears more merit than saying, say 'POKEMON is the best GameBoy Game out there' is an absolute truth.
Gasper's apology I didn't take as sincere, if you're referring to the one I think you're referring to. The one to me, that is. The one to the room, if I never said I accepted, I do accept. If I didn't put that before, I'm sorry.
DRAGONBALL is trash due to bad characterization. Read above for more details on why DRAGONBALL is trash.
Age versus ideas...
Well, good. I had a feeling it was that way, but its nice to have it confirmed. I still like age anonymity, though.

"No, his point *ISN'T* refutable. A tabletop game has total freedom, while a CRPG does not."

His points are refutable. Its a matter of interpretation what story is better, and if I don't agree that tabletop Role-Playing Games provide good stories those are opinions. Him thinking Role-Playing Games provide good stories were opinions. Hence, they're refutable.

"The total freedom, if used correctly, makes the game much more personal and engaging, and allows something that CRPGs can't really begin to provide: true *ROLEPLAYING*! By the way, the above are actually *facts*, not opinions. They are based on the easily percieved limits of CRPG technology.
percieved limits of CRPG technology."

All of the above are opinions. What you claim to be facts are your opinions, based on the limits of Console Role-Playing Game technology. Its also a valid opinion to say that Console Role-Playing Games can provide true Role-Playing. Maybe even moreso than tabletop Role-Playing Games. Tabeltop Role-Playing Games can't provide three dimensional visual world experiences that allow you to have a more immersive feel than Tabletop Role-Playing Games.
And that was an opinion of mine, just like your comments were opinions of yours.
Street mime... Err, no, I didn't know. And hey, who says such people can't tell good stories?
I'd play an epic Role-Playing Game because it had a better story, not because of the medium of its presentation. Personal preference does guide me; my point was my personal preference is applicable to story versus story, not medium versus medium. Any story of any medium is judged versus any other story of any medium.
Proving the inaccuracy of the attacks...
You're on! :)
Although not for the purpose of proving inaccuracy, but rather because I love deep philosophical arguments. :)
Better than stuff...
Says you, who may not be in a position to judge as I believe you said you haven't yet played XENOGEARS. If you haven't experienced a story yet, you can't claim you're better and/or will be better.
Next up...
Checking XENOGEARS out *is* playing it, that wouldn't be spoiling it.
No, I don't own that gun, although I could create one. As for the pie being chocolate... I hadn't decided.

"True, but Shakespeare's works reached Japan hundred of years before Vidio games even existed. Therefore, his "cliches" still have seniority. By the way, what ARE his cliches?"

They have senority if they had any influence on whatever Japanese works provide those cliches. Similar ideas can come about, and even if William Shakespeare reached Japan way back, they have plenty of their own literature that could've been similar to anything William Shakespeare accomplished and/or that they could derive sources from. And William might not even be/might not have been much of an influence in Japan.
'Original works'...
History might've also let works similar to Willy's and/or ones that came before his time fade into antiquity.
I'm not accepting Shakespeare's originality because I know things can fade into history and lack of evidence not only goes against but supports my point. If there's no evidence, how can you know for sure? Thus the possibility exists.
I haven't read any story involving Hamlet or Prince Hal. Doug used Prince Hal as a counter-example to the 'shallow' bit. I'll say this once again, I was referring to the stories of Shakespeare I've yet read.
I've just finished what I said of MACBETH.
As for the characterization messup... Naah. It'd take too long to explain, and if you're going to argue stories of Shakespeare's I haven't read to me, well, I guess the same thing holds for both of us. We need to read more.
Deep stuff does exist. Its like your '1+1=2' example below, which I'll cover in more detail later. The emotions themselves, where your terms were emotions, exist, although they can be called different things. As for 'Justice' and 'Peace'... They're concepts that are open to interpretation. Same with 'Faithfulness'.
And most intelligent people will agree that a deep, philosophical book is of more worth than, say, looking at pictures of ladies in various revealing fashions of clothing. At least, I hope they will.
The plays you mentioned I'll comment on if/when I read them. Providing one/multiple/all are shallow, of course.
Your definition of 'truth'... I'll keep that in mind when talking to you, although I may not practice it. And keep in mind '1+1=2' is actually not a 'truth' either. People could just as well call it naga oxiyts iluni gugu fufu. People have named the numbers and symbols but the names were created by subjective viewpoints. The equation itself, whatever you call it, remains the same, though. Thus its part-absolute truth, possibly, and part-subjective truth.
I hold opinions because the formation of opinions is what leads to subjective truths. Without opinions, there could be no truths at all.
The 'emotion' bit again... Just what 'love', for instance, is, can also be disputed. Just what 'depth' is can be disputed, but by a common consensus of subjective truths it does exist. Its not an absolute but it exists.
What's deep is subjective, of course, though.
Willy again...
Impressions don't make a difference. Stories good enough to leave long-lasting impressions could be good enough to give standards, but they can't give *the* standard. Because if doing better or similar is possible, then you may have to adjust your standards.
Now for what you call 'Really Involved Logic Arguments'.
First of all, you're not chipping away open-mindedness.
Now, to the debates.

"I suppose you could say rape is just a case of opposing
viewpoints, but I doubt you'd call it that if it was your sister... *thinks a bit*"

I believe I specifically said that harm is not something that I agree with condoning. All viewpoints are subjective, but people have the right to exercise these subjective viewpoints to keep themselves free from harm. I have a feeling I'll be repeating this many times further on.

Do you realise that, by rejecting the concepts of "Good/Right" and "Evil/Wrong", logically you must permit EVERYTHING? You've just pissed away your ability to
condemn murder, torture, rape, theft, kidnapping, extortion, molestation, and every other form of violence and perversion imaginable."

Read above. People have the right to keep themselves free from pain, even if the choice to do so is subjective.

"I doubt you realize it, but the only possible result of that philosophy is chaos."

Nuh-uh. Read above.

"If there is no good and evil, why should I do anything that doesn't benefit me directly? And why should I *not* do something if I enjoy it? Your philosophy can't awnser either of those questions, and the conclusion is that, logically, I should whatever I want."

My philosophy does now. It also responds to your conclusion. Again, read above, please.

"Law and Justice, acording to you, are simply masks for mob rule. Democracy is a farce, and the true form of government is a dictatorship; rule of the strongest."

Heck, no it isn't. As truth is subjective, a dictatorship is a direct counter of the philosophy that truth is subjective. A democracy tries to aid the most people it can by a process of basing laws off the subjective method 'majority rules'.
Democracy therefore is not a farce.
And Law and Justice, while subjective concepts, people have the right to apply. If people want to achieve happiness and be free of pain they have the right to do that. If people can create a fair law that will be accepted they have the right to do that. Why do you think monarchies were so disliked by people in many cases?
The point is to base this system of achieving happiness and the Laws and Justice deriving from it in a form that bits fits subjective viewpoints: A democracy.

"Trust is toast, because there's no base for it. How can I trust someone if they only care about themselves? Trust can only exist when a person is willing to treat his friend's
interests the same as his own."

Not true... There are many other aspects of trust. Trust can exist when one knows that one will be there for one; the 'willing to treat' bit does not have to exist. This very difference of opinions proves that trust is also subjective.

"Under the worldview that you've put forward, that kind of friendship is only for the foolish. And you can't really have love without trust, so that's gone too. Darn."

No it isn't foolish. Friendship can be formed if there's knowledge of similarities. That doesn't have to be called trust. Friendship can be formed from a different form of trust, as long as some trust is there. Each type of trust may be subjective in reference to each friendship. Same for love.

"A rather bleak picture, isn't it? I doubt you intended to propose such a nightmarish vision, but these are the logical consequences of the statement "There is no Truth"."

Actually, no, they're not.
Read above.

"Truth is the dam that holds back Evil (and deep down, I KNOW you believe in evil),"

Guess what. I don't. There's no such thing as good and evil. Only opposing viewpoints.

"and every good thing we humans have is built in it's shadow. If you can't recognise that fact, I fear you aren't being rational."

Every good thing we have is built off of subjective truths and compromises to prevent the pain that most don't want.
As for 'being rational'... What determines rationality? Rationality to one may not be rationality to another. Rationality is also a subjective viewpoint.

"Well, at least you're being logically consistent... After all, if truth doesn't exist, then how can you lie? *sighs mournfully*"

One can lie in extreme cases. For instance, if one breaks a bowl, they did that. That part is absolute, although there is subjectivity in that 'bowl' is a subjective term. Facts exist in some cases, although in not as many as people might think. Therefore, if one denys breaking a bowl they lied.

"Since you've already advocated rape and murder, I suppose supporting theft isn't such a big deal."

I did not advocate those two things, nor do I advocate theft. Read above, please.

"And while we're at it, I hope you realize the statement you just made, if true, means that trust in any form equals suicide. Sounds like a darned unpleasent life to
me..."

Trust equals suicide?
What do you mean by that?
If you mean extending trust is paramount to suicide; it isn't always isn't. It depends on the trust and the situation; there are as many trusts as there are people and as many combinations/permutations of situations as there are people.

"*thinks a bit* ...Are you a Nihlist? If so, have you read Nietzche?"

No, I'm not a nihilist.
I haven't read Nietzche either.

"But you yourself said that those people are wrong. If
there is no truth, then humanity is entitled to NOTHING. If I choose to ignore their complaints, you have no reason why I shouldn't."

Yes, there is. Humanity is entitled to happiness. Truth is relative, and if six billion people have relative truths that go towards finding happiness and avoiding pain, then doing pain is infringing on the right of people to have those truths. That in itself is a truth, but if we care for people, we'll respect that one. Caring also has a basis in life, not everything is objective.

"The only "grounds" you leave for objection are purely subjective; thus, they have no power to restrict. Besides, what does "beneficial" mean? You've destroyed truth, so it's you're word against mine about whether an action is "beneficial". You can't give that authority to the majority, since you've declared that they're no closer to the truth than I am."

The majority may be no closer to the truth, but the structure of democracy, as explained above, forms as fair a truth as possible. And if we care we'll give that fair truth. Its fortunate that enough people have cared, possibly.
Beneficial is subjective, but I clarified the overall point to the point where that term is not necessary. The whole point should be explained, and with it, how I meant the word.

"All you can say is that you don't like what I do (I don't care), and that you'll try to stop me (and you can't)."

Not so. If we care and want what's best for the majority we'll try to allow people their rights of relative truth and their rights to pursue happiness and be free from pain. Caring plays just as much a basis in decision-making as logical aspects too.

"But people disagree about what they like, and you've said that no one is right. Therefore, the pilot who drves a 747 into downtown New York because "Life is too painful, and I want to relieve my passengers of the burden" is the same as a doctor who saves thousands of lives in the emergency room. Both are applying their "truth" (opinion or statement) to those around them."

'Like' and 'caring'... People compromise on things like this to form what the majority subjectively wants. They do this because people care enough to do so. Otherwise, yes, we might have chaos. The views that are most beneficial, as it is subjectively viewed, to people are enforced because people care to see those views enforced.

"But if we disagree about what "makes things better", you can no longer tell me I'm wrong. You either have to try to stop me (in which case you are imposing your equally invalid views on another), or you have to bite the bullet. Literally."

Caring, again. People haven't chosen this way. They could have but haven't. Because the caring people don't want to see others in pain as much as many don't want pain. You're ignoring the whole emotional level here.

"*Wags a cautioning finger* Oh no you don't... Censorship is a belief too, and according to you, it is just as "true" as your belief in free speech. So when the thugs kick in your door to murder you for preaching "tolerance", you've got no right to complain."

Read above.
Words are one thing. Actions are another. Words can offend at times, yes; words can hurt, yes, and some actions might not. The difference is where 'hurting' comes in. Apply that to many people not wanting to see hurt.
And even then, there may be disagreements on what hurts and what doesn't. People will work it out. As long as there's still some semblance of love in this world we won't have chaos. Love drives things to the 'avoid pain/be happy' method most often, and has proved to be accommodating so far. The choices have been subjective ones, and someone's allowed to challenge them, but if they inflict harm they've infringed on people's rights and as long as people love, they'll do something about that.

"As I hope the arguements above demonstrate, you *CAN'T* have an enjoyable life free from harm *WITHOUT* Truth. If Truth doesn't exist, all that's left is force. Can you refute any of the above logicaly? I don't think so, but I'm looking forward to seeing you try... :)"

I just proved you can have an enjoyable life without truth.

"This *is* true. Think about it; a logical statement consists (as I'm sure you know) of an "if" and a "then". "If I douse myself in gasoline, then I'll be in pain". In order to try to prove a point logically, you have to get someone to agree to the "if" part, and hence find "common ground". If they refuse to agree that you *CAN* douse yourself in gasoline, then logical arguement of the point is impossible. That's why it always helps to define your terms at the begining of a debate..."

If someone doesn't agree to the 'if' point that you'll be arguing that as well, but you can still argue.

"A rational person, in the end, is somone who will agree that "A is not not-A", and vise versa. In other words, they're willing to use and follow logic. Anyone who refuses to do this is crazy, and you can't tell anything to a crazy person... :)"

"A is not not-A" is relative to each individual, thus there's different logic and different rationalities. There's thus no craziness, too, because there may be counter-logics depending upon each logic. Logic exists in all viewpoints if one holds logic within those viewpoints. If they don't, maybe they don't have too swift truths, but logic can be formed in all viewpoints.

"Logical Conclusion: take two true statements, such as "Gasoline-soaked rags ignite when exposed to flame" and "Matches produce flame when struck." The logical
conclusion is found by following the statements, like so: "Therefore, striking a match and touching it to a gasoline-soaked rag will cause the rag to ignite."
Principles: I think the principles, in the example above, are the first two statements. "Sound Principles" are statements that have been proven to be true."

Logical, true, and sound are all subjective. One may disagree with the example above in some way or another. And it is possible. Remember what I said about term application?

"On the contrary, any arguement that doesn't follow those rules is, by definition, *illogical*!"

Only in your subjective view.

"Well, it does help if the "something" actually has to do with the topic at hand... :P"

True.

"He wasn't saying to exclude those people, he was saying that you have to find common ground. For example, If you and I discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of Dragonball, we have to define what makes an anime good... Thus finding common ground to build off of."

Yet we may have to argue what makes an anime good first, thus proving there need not be common ground for the beginnings of an argument.

"This is untrue. "Rationality" is (I think?) a reference to logical consistency. If the person's view is proved to be illogical, and they reject the proof without refuting it, then they are by definition irrational."

'Rationality' is subjective. So are illogical aspects.

"As I've pointed out above, the first two are real logical terms, and the concepts behind them are valid."

I've pointed out above that they aren't and the concepts behind them aren't valid.

""Normal/abnormal" is a far more subjective catagory,
but it too has a place. To continue with the Gasoline Motif, A normal person does not pour gasoline on themselves and strike a match."

That's a subjective view. To the person who does so, maybe you're the abnormal one.

"But you *CAN'T* make someone understand your words unless you have the common ground of identical terms!"

Read above. You may have to argue those terms first.

"I think he's refering to purely emotional arguements..."

That depends on what you mean when you say 'referring to'.

"I think it goes something like this: "there are three types of lies. Lies, Damned lies, and statistics". In other words,
statistics are the worst type."

Thanks. :) I'll apply that later on in another Post to Toku.

"I really should have caught this sooner, but better late than never. The "Logic" he (and I) are refering to isn't the
quasi-logical worldview of the individual, but the *UNIVERSAL* Logic typified by the statement "A is no not-A". That kind of universal truth does NOT vary AT ALL.
Logic is the application of that universal truth to a problem. Taste, on the other hand, is a matter of preference; ie "chocolate tastes good"."

Read above. There's no such thing as universal logic. Its all subjective.

"Ok, now you're starting to scare me. Are you sure we mean the same thing when we say "logic"? I've already stated my definition several times above. If you are rational, you will agree that it doesw, in fact, consist of the logical proof that you claim doesn't exist."

It may consist of my logical proof. Maybe not yours, though. That doesn't make me irrational, I just disagree with you.

""A is not Not-A" <- This IS absolute logical proof! If you prove that what you call a whale is a giant aquatic animal,
and what you call a kitten is a small land animal, you have just proved that a whale is not a kitten. PLEASE tell me you can see this!"

*End For Now, Picks Up in the Morning*
Note: Revel was the last Post I read as of night, thus that'll be the last I'll respond to until tomorrow's post, as I'm already making one for today now.
*Continuing*

A whale is not a kitten only if one conforms to the subjective view that a whale is not a kitten. One could choose to call a whale a kitten and a kitten a whale or a whale 'Kitten Type A' and a kitten 'Kitten Type B'.

"Art, for the most part, is subjective and not objective. Therefore, I can call a piece of cow dung art, if it truly
stirs something within my soul."

True.

"Agreed to some extent, but again, if the cow dung truly speaks to me, then to me it IS art."

You'll need to argue why.

"Ever seen one of those shirtless, bearded, incredibly fat men standing on a street corner haraunging the multitudes? Is that REALLY how you wanna end up? Let's take a simple example: if an Englishman and a Russian want to discuss something logically, one of them has to adapt at least a little and learn the other's language, yes? To build an arguement, you have to use logic, and you have to translate that logic into a "language" that your opponent can understand. This is, I think, what was meant by "Common Ground". I don't see how you can disagree with this without being irrational."

I've already given my views on this. Sometimes you have to argue to find common ground first, but the argument can exist initially.
And once again, logic and rationality are subjective.

"Counter this arguement: A cat is not a spider. Some statements are inarguably True, no matter how
much skill and ability you have."

A cat is not a spider only because the subjective populace agrees a cat is not a spider. A cat could be called 'Spider 1' and a spider 'Spider 2'.

"If "Right" doesn't exist, why should you care if people agree with you?"

Because I want at least some people to agree with my subjective truths and understand me.

"My views are just as good as yours, and there's no reason for me to listen to you since you've already said your stance is meaningless. But I DO listen to you, because I belive truth exists and I want to know if you have it."

Truth exists, subjectively. 'Facts' are more 'true' but only if one conforms to the names subjectively created. The only thing true in them are their concepts. And as 'different' is a concept, one must also recognize even that was a subjective truth. Objective truths that we call 'facts' can only be stated in human understanding subjectively.

"No, but they *did* adapt their lifestyle to account for human hostility. The adapt principle holds; you cannot expect others to conform to your wishes."

True. But you can try to argue your point until people understand it.

*End Part One of Post*
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 08:05:59 AM
IP: 205.morristown-01-02rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

Tim- It's okay, looking at the times involved, I can see that's your probably telling the truth about the matter. And I also realized a flaw in my little decree... I made note to not mention any of the post, but within that post I commented on a few relevant things not related to the flamewar... Sooo...

NO COMMENTS ABOUT THE FLAMEWAR AFTER *THIS* POINT, noting my review of Drunken master or reply to something not flamewar related is okay tho.

KAPIECH?

All the authority I posses just seems to drip away to nothing when I can't even follow my own decree, doesn't it? Oh well, this time, I MEAN IT! 8P
Robby
Sunday, October 29, 2000 02:20:04 AM
IP: spider-ti051.proxy.aol.com

Robby: Aw crap. I was still typing my message while you posted your's. Sorry.
Tim
Sunday, October 29, 2000 02:12:35 AM
IP: s37-onawa.pionet.net

PLEASE DON'T LEAVE CHRISTINE!!! PLEASE STAY!!! I promise to give your next Fan-fic a good review in this room for you!

Seriously though, leaving this room isn't going to stop this flame war or prevent future ones. And you KNOW that. Frankly, you've never seemed to me to be the kind of person who would quit and turn about face just because of some immature bullshit, weither that bullshit is coming from Paul or his detractors. I'm saying this as a friend... If you leave this CR, you may not have to read all the badmouthing in here, but nor will you see this to the end and have any closure to this whole sorid mess. I'm not not saying you should do any arguing or badmouthing, but if you bail out now, it's just going to wind up eating at you.

And for the rest of you: All this B.S. about that hack Shakespeare, Role-Playing-Games for people disenchanted with reality, cheap-@$$ two-frame-per-second anime, and "arugmentive logic" doesn't mean a thing. All this all about intellectual and moral superiority. Everyone in here is so geared up to prove that he or she is so much better than someone else, that they ALLOW themselves to be offended. You can argue otherwise, but I call it as it is.

So folks, what's it gonna be? Are we gonna keep fanning the fires of this flame war by badmouthing until everyone gets burnt? Are we gonna just put it out by ignoring it only to have to deal with it again later? As we all know, this flame war and many others have been deeply seated in the past. Or will we have the flamewar burn itself out in a controlled fashion by discussing like mature, competent adults?

Who knows? Maybe you'll throw my arguement back in my face and say that I'm the one whose trying to be "intellectually and morally superiour." Maybe I'm an insensitive asshole. Maybe I care too much.

I'm not ever going to say that I'm always right. I hardly know anything about life, and I'm learning more about that all the time. However...

I grew up on a farm and I've been studying politics since the 5th grade. I know bullshit when I smell it.

Please stay Christine. It's more important than you may realize.
Tim P.
Sunday, October 29, 2000 02:09:08 AM
IP: s37-onawa.pionet.net

Drunken Master kicked even more arse the second time around. I failed to notice the awesome sountrack first time through... And the fights were still awesome, the best I've ever seen. (They even *gasp* put DBZ to shame! Which is something I never thought I'd say!) The comedy was great even the second time around. Perfect marks on this flik, if its still in theaters I may need to go see it *again* next weekend!

Daphne- NHS? Ninja High School? Oh wait, National Honors Society... See what happens when you spend all your time at a comic book creating office? (Tho actually I've been thinking "Ninja High School" whenever I see those initials for a loooong time...)

Mandolin- So Saban *is* doing Timeranger? Nuts. At the very least, its going to be a mid-season replacement only instead of a season starter, so that's a good sign as to its imminent death.

Greg, Revel, SJ, Joxter, Gasper and whoever else is involved with this Paul mess- Your messages to Paul are sounding like a downright threat to this CR admin's eyes. I stopped reading his posts days ago because I personally don't care what he has to say, so I don't know what he has said to incite you saying this. (I have been skimming people's replies to monitor the tone of the room tho.) However, you folks are threatening him and telling him to leave, Christine is threating to leave the room, etc. And this has been going on for nearly two weeks. Now, since I *really* don't want to spend the time going back and reading Paul's posts to see what has brought things to this point and I don't use the threat of banning lightly and so many long time posters are involved, I'm going to give this general warning right now.

Folks, if you don't like what Paul is saying because he's insulting something you like, just take my stance on it, and ignore it. I haven't bothered to defend DBZ because I no longer care what Paul thinks, to the point I wasn't even aware he'd insulted the series. Ignore him, and if he gets bored at the lack of attention, and he'll leave. On the same note, insult him and you're only making things worse and turning this into a flamewar.

If you don't like what he has to say, and he does not listen to any evidence you may give, just ignore him. Don't insult him, or make snide witty remarks. (ANd I too was guilty of this the first day or two, I'll admit.) Basically, cut it out, please.

Paul- The same goes DOUBLE for you. If someone insults you, just ignore it and don't reply. If you don't have a knee-jerk reaction to an insult, the insults will stop because the others aren't getting a fun knee-jerk reaction. As near as I can tell, you aren't actually breaking the rules. You aren't posting porn, and I don't think you're intentionally starting a flame war, your just not getting along with quite a few people in here. As far as you apparently insulting a few people, you HAVE appologized, so I won't hold that against you, this time.

Now folks, enough of this bickering. If you don't like what is being said, just ignore it and it will go away, one way or another. This is just a general warning to the entire CR. However, if this continues, I will have to start getting a bit more strict, and I really don't want to do that. COnsider the kid gloves off after this. If any of this flame war-ish behavior continues, posters get exatly ONE warning before being banned. And in this instance I won't take friendship into account. Ignore what you don't like or find stupid about someone's post, and don't say anything at all.

In fact, and to make this clear...

NONE OF YOU MAKE ANY MORE REFERENCES TO WHAT HAS PASSED IN THIS INCIDENT, AND IN FACT, NONE OF YOU EVEN REFER TO THIS POST. ANY REFERENCE *AT ALL* TO THIS FLAMEWAR. EVEN A MESSAGE LIKE "Robby, I read your post and agrr/understand/will behave/ etc." WILL BE TAKEN AS A SIGN THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CONTINUE THE FLAME WAR, AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

Now, tommarrow I'm going to a SAAS meeting, so I won't be here from noon till about midnight. When I get back, I expect this CR to be back to normal and posting on normal fun topics. I will NOT be in the mood to see this still going on, and will be extremely ticked. Understood? Good. Now end this nonsense and never speak of it again.
Robby the CR Admin
Sunday, October 29, 2000 01:58:59 AM
IP: spider-ti051.proxy.aol.com

Just a quick post.
Has anyone heard of Gargoyle sunglasses? I saw some and they looked rather cool (a little like Brooklyn's), rather expensive though. $115.00...Must come with dinner and a movie or something like that. ;P

Gunjack- Actually I couldn't resist looking in a mirror and seeing my eyes almost completely black.

Coyote- Bad luck usually ends sooner or later. Hopefully before it does any perminant damage.

Be back soon.
Jaden - [jaden12@hotmail.com]
KoreaSunday, October 29, 2000 01:47:11 AM
IP: 211.216.216.35

Sorry for the double post.

::Re-reads Paul Allen Nathan's post more closly:: I don't know who this Jeremy person is, or what this EsperNet you speak of is. I do not abuse power anywhere. I barely have power anywhere. And I've never done or made any comments to you in the past I can only conclude that you're a liar. But my apology to you is now withdrawn. I do not have to put up with your slander. You have offended friends of mine, you have offended me, and now I know that you are a liar. And that does not surprise me at all. Asshole!
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 01:16:13 AM
IP: fe0-0.cache-01.nyc.bestweb.net

Sevarius Jr> Yes I agree with. This is way too familiar looking for my liking.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 01:03:50 AM
IP: fe0-0.cache-01.nyc.bestweb.net

**Looks around at comment room**

Wow, deja vu. Gee, where have I seen this little drama played out before?
Sevarius Jr. - [bpoole@mailexcite.com]
Sunday, October 29, 2000 12:51:22 AM
IP: cache-2.spg.va.webcache.rcn.net

Well.

After having to deal with the incredible stress of my mother's illness and the heartbreak of having to put her in a nursing home as well as the strain of going out there every evening to visit her, this evening I finally have some quiet time to myself in front of the computer. So, I say to myself, "Self, let's go visit the TGS room. We'll have a nice relaxing time chatting with some friends and maybe even get caught up for a change."

That was the plan.

Instead, I find myself standing in this huge, stinking pile of crap.

I am not happy.

Christine, I don't quite know what to say to you. Part of me wants to do anything to convince you to stay. Wants to tell you that by leaving you will only be hurting yourself and those of us who enjoy your presence. Wants to say that the only one who will win is your antagonist.

Then again, part of me agrees with you. And if you did indeed leave, I would probably leave too.

It's ironic that this morning I was pondering this very question.

I know how you feel. I stopped visiting the S8 comment room some time ago for reasons that are probably best not rehashed here. The atmosphere had become just too chilly for my tastes, and I felt that I could no longer go on acting as if nothing had happened. So I left. Quietly, without fanfare. I saw no reason to disrupt other people. Perhaps that was wrong. Perhaps I should have stood up for what I believed. Of course, it didn't help that I was suffering a major bout of depression at the time and wasn't exactly in my right mind.

No matter. This time I will speak my mind.

Christine, any reason I could give you for staying would probably be selfish: *I* want you to stay. Obviously, many other people do as well. Hardly anyone would miss me, but a lot of people *will* miss you. But, in the end you must do what makes you comfortable. If you truly don't feel as if you belong here, then it would be wrong to ask you to stay. No matter what, I wish you well.
----
Paul Allen Nathans:
My friend, I really don't know what to make of you. Is this a real attempt at flamebaiting, or are you truly ignorant of the emotional impact you are having on people here? I don't know and don't have the wisdom or knowledge to decide. Nor do you seem willing or able to learn. So as my first, last, and only word on this matter I shall invoke an ancient Usenet tradition and merely say:

*plonk*
----
Azrael:
Welcome to the loony bin. I think your mother gave you good advice. :) Believe me, I took a lot more than three minutes before saying anything--more like three hours. ;) And I don't think you're being offensive or unreasonable.
----
Everyone:
Good night, and remember that often new hope is born with the rising of the sun. Well, unless you're a gargoyle I suppose. :P
Daniel Johnson - [danielj7@mac.com]
Ocean Grove, NJ, USA
Sunday, October 29, 2000 12:30:26 AM
IP: adsl-138-89-68-207.nnj.adsl.bellatlantic.net

Heh. Fourth to me, and first with a monster post. And no, I didn't do that on purpose... :) Anyway, just got back from "Perfect Storm", and my sister had a storm of her own when she got home... She's currently coccooned in a sleeping bag, sobbing her head off from stress. :P Poor girl works too hard...

Just stopping by because I forgot a reply.

Paul><<'Zing! *Winces.*' means what?>> *Looks around the room with a raised eyebrow, taking in the last few posts*
THAT is what zing means...

More replies later... *ignores screams of horror* ...when my fingers heal from all that typing. Please people, no decapitaions this time? And try not to get intestines on my desk again... :P

And Christine? Please be here when I come back... :(

Peace, Love, Dope.
Gunjack Valentine - [miphsingleton@hotmail.com]
Saturday, October 28, 2000 10:54:22 PM
IP: 209-223-253-129.ausa.net

**Mandi delurks briefly, scanning through the comments in the 2+ weeks she's been gone**

Okay, I'm going to throw in my $.02 here...

Paul> You have a right to your own opinions, true. That's not what's been getting people up in arms; the way you've been expressing them is the problem. You can like or dislike whatever fanfics you want to. You don't have to be so unkind about it.

Look, you say you have nothing against Christine and then you make comments like <<For outclasses Christine Morgan so that even if any other works were bad, these works would still outclass Christine Morgan.>> If anyone - anyone - made repeated comments like that about, say, my fanfic, I'd be extremely hurt.

I don't think you're aware of this. I really don't believe you're out to start a flame war. But I've got to tell you, some of the things you've said about Christine's fics are unecessarily hurtful. You're not "inconveniencing" anyone, but I think you are hurting Christine's feelings.

Christine> Don't leave.

Power Rangers> Haven't watched the show since that Space series (the Galaxy one was blah, and I can't stand Lightspeed Rescue), but I still write fanfic to combat the millions of plot holes. So I hate to disappoint people, but the prevailing rumor is that Saban is working on ANOTHER version of Power Rangers... "Power Rangers Time Force." **shudder** At least the initial cast list on the IMDb proved to be wrong...

Anyway, I have two programs, a research portfolio and a lab report due Monday, so that's all...
Mandolin - [weird_web@hotmail.com]
Saturday, October 28, 2000 10:51:47 PM
IP: 144.175.21.16

Hey All. This is my first post, though I've been reading for a while.
My mommie taught me that if you're not already involved in a conversation, wait for three minuets<sp?> before you enter it, that way you don't make a donkey of yourself.
That being said: I've seen lots of posts claiming that Paul is starting flame wars. I haven't seen anything he said that was out-and-out offensive <except maybe his lack of appreciation of Shakespear>. I have seen lots of people who, EXPECT him to make offensive comments and only look for those. Even when he appologizes, no one takes that into consideration, they just go ahead and attack. Now, on the other side of things.
Paul: You keep saying that "this is the last time" you're going to respond to things saying you're immature or child-ish, or whatever. The best way to respond to those is not to. Anyone who holds themselves to the strict conduct they are expecting from you will see that in not responding, you are being more mature than those attacking your maturity. Keep any arguments on the logical level, try not to use names <of living people: games and such are fine, though> and anyone being rational and fair can only see that you're doing exactly what they want. That way everyone wins: you get to post your oppinion, and they don't have to feel like they're being attacked.

Now, for the disclaimer: I'm really tired right now, so If this offends, please be rational when you yell at me, I'm not normally an offensive kinda guy.

Az.

Azrael - [Azrael_2099@yahoo.com]
Arlington, TX
Saturday, October 28, 2000 10:48:44 PM
IP: 63.88.215.140

Robby> too true for words dude. Too true (blink)
James Birdsong - [LennexMacDuff@yahoo.com]
San Diego, CA, USA
Saturday, October 28, 2000 10:23:49 PM
IP: adsl-63-207-128-27.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net

Christine- This is something my mother taught me a long time ago. She is practically the strangest person I've ever known and I love her to death because of it. She told me that when you're not working you should do what ever you want to to make yourself happy. If others don't like that they can go to hell. When you are working just bare with it.
I suppose the point of this is that if you enjoy coming here and talking with us then we are all the more fortunate because of it. If some jerk is pissing you off and insulting you I think you should either ignore them or put them in their place.

Paul- I have but one statement to give you. SHUT THE *@$#! UP! Didn't your mother ever tell you not to speak if you didn't have anything nice to say.
I don't like haveing to deal with this sort of thing in RL so if you can't just make a friendly conversation with out bashing everything and everyone just do us all a favor and LEAVE!
I need a break
Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
Saturday, October 28, 2000 10:18:48 PM
IP: spider-tr032.proxy.aol.com

Paul> Maybe I did overreact a bit, and I apologise if I did. But I still think you need to learn more tact, and stop bringing Christine into this. She was not involved to begin with and she did not deserve those comments whatsoever.

Everyone else> I'm sorry you all had to read that, but I've been really tempermental over the past few months. As you know, my Dad and I are no longer speaking, I didn't get to go to the Gathering, I had to quit my job because of school, I'm having my own financial troubles, school is really tough so far, I'm behind on TGS assignments, and there's more also. This is a dark time in my life. Very little is going my way.

I'm going to try to post more often, and hopefully I'll be talking about lighter topics.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Saturday, October 28, 2000 09:56:35 PM
IP: fe0-0.cache-01.nyc.bestweb.net

Power rangers> the show was bad but for those of us with a love of big robots and rubbery monsters slugging it out in metropolitan areas it was a good for a quick fix, plus it did two good things, made for a great Reboot parody and started the infamous Reboot running gag of "you can't talk in these things" for reference the episode was "nullzilla" and there were references from Gundam to thunderbirds to Voltron to Kung Fu
shogun raptor
Saturday, October 28, 2000 09:18:42 PM
IP: user-38ldfom.dialup.mindspring.com

Selanit>> <the constitution> I think that was a very noble thing you did. Who was it that said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

GOOD NEWS!!!
I was just selected as the PR officer of my school's NHS! you know, I seemd to do better with appointed positions than I do with elected ones... Maybe I should forget runing for office someday and hope for a cabinet position instead :)
seriously, though, these elections are pretty much based on who do you like the most, and failing that, who gives out the best candy. And hey, these appointments are a sign that the powers-that-be trust me!

Happiness!
Daphne, apprentice-wordsmith
Saturday, October 28, 2000 08:28:45 PM
IP: dialup-63.214.192.161.philadelphia1.level3.net

Greg 'Xanatos' Bishanky:
Too late to completely prevent problems, apparently.
Another quick message. Ah, well, I wanted to get my apology and saying I'd stop out before anyone else commented on this.
Everyone doesn't not want me here, and not everyone hates me. Read the previous Posts in the Comment Room... Some people have agreed with some of my points, some people have been civil to me, and some don't seem to bear me any ill. And one person, at least, has stood up for me and even offered to help me via Electronic Mail.
XENOGEARS... Did you intentionally leave the first letter uncapitalized or was that an error?
It is okay to have XENOGEARS discussions here if people are willing to discuss it, I do not always cause flame wars... Read previous Posts, I think in one Doug acknowledged this, and if by 'worthless ego' you mean I'm being 'egotistical' and/or arrogant and/or whatever, I've said many times before that's not true.
And I'm not being juvenile either.
I'm getting tired of trying to explain that I'm going to be civil this time around. Look at previous Posts if you want to see what's going on... Doug's words to me and to Gasper, Kitainia's words to me and to Gasper. I did not cause the flame wars this time.
Nor am I being juvenile for the same reasons I've said before that I'm not being 'arrogant' and/or 'always right'.
If I'm still messing up this time around I'll trust Kitainia to tell me if I'm still doing so... She offered to help me and therefore I'll listen to her. If you're who I think you are, then you've caused me some grief in the past and possibly left me with some lasting scars, and for these reasons as well as that I've been told by my friend Jerm/Jeremy you're someone who abuses your power on EsperNet (although mainly because of what you've done to me in the past) I most certainly will *not* listen to you.
The real Post will come later.

Paul

"........."-Jowy Atriedes
SUIKODEN II
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Saturday, October 28, 2000 08:23:28 PM
IP: 34.morristown-01-02rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

Initial important Post... I'll get into the more detailed stuff later, but I want to try to diffuse this as fast as possible, before this causes another problem.
Christine:
If even a few lines, and ones that weren't even in a scathing tone like last time, is still inconveniencing you, fine, I'll stop even that. Although not for the threat of leaving, all of this is regardless of that.
All you had to do was ask.
And yes, I'm aware you've asked before. However, if it applies to one line, that's a different matter, so that's why I said 'all you had to do was ask'.
I'll have to say one last thing here though, to explain a point.
I don't call everything of yours 'tasteless romance' stories, and I've seen many of your stories. Unfortunately, there are so many that they provoked my commentary from before. So yes, I don't judge everything from anyone on a single work.
That'll bit it.
I'm sorry if I've continued to inconvenience you, I'd intended to be civil this time. Kitainia should vouch for that, hopefully... And I hope Doug, as well (provided whether I've cleared up the intentions of one particular comment I'd made to him).

Paul

"I'm sorry."-Shinji Ikari
NEON GENESIS EVANGELION:
SICKNESS UNTO DEATH, AND...
Paul Allen Nathans - [LacanPanother@worldnet.att.net]
Saturday, October 28, 2000 08:07:56 PM
IP: 34.morristown-01-02rs.nj.dial-access.att.net

I haven't posted in a while, but I felt obligated to after what I just read.

Christine> Don't leave the room. You shouldn't have to. You have been nothing but a pleasure to have around, both in the fandom and in this room. If anything, this juvenile individual should be the one to leave. No one wants him here. Everyone hates him. I'm surprised he doesn't take the hint.

Paul> I believe the last time you caused trouble in here, a friend of ours suggested that you just go post at a xenogears (I know I'm not capitalising it), and spare us all. Well, now I'm saying it to you. All you do is cause flamewars, which this room has seen enough of in it's history. We had gone a long time without one, and we're tired of them. Things were great in here until you dragged your worthless ego back into this room. Either shape up, or just leave. To be frank, if I were the moderator of the CR, I'd ban you right now.

Sorry for the rant everybody. But Paul Nathans here has caused some friends of mine grief in the past. The details are irrelevent right now, but I just had to get this off my chest.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky - [Madoc55@hotmail.com]
Saturday, October 28, 2000 07:54:48 PM
IP: fe0-0.cache-01.nyc.bestweb.net

Apologies to all in advance, but I've had it ...

Paul > "I don't judge everything from everyone on a single work." Yet you also defines _everything _ that I've written as "tasteless romance." ::shakes head:: I really honestly do wish that you would leave me out of your arguments. I don't know what you have against me (though I have my guesses), but I am getting very tired of this. To the point that I am considering something I never thought it'd come to ... I'm on the verge of doing as others have done and just quitting this room rather than face your ongoing bile and venom.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Saturday, October 28, 2000 07:10:52 PM
IP: 14-087.009.popsite.net

In case ya'll are wondering, I wiped early because I'm going off to watch Drunken Master again with some buds. That movie rocks!

Selanit- DOn't worry too much. PPG's is the highest rated show Cartoon Network has outside of imports. (DBZ, Sailor Moon, Tenchi, and Gundam WIng.) They'll try milking it a lot when they have more episodes. ANd look at it in a positive way... You'll be getting doses of "new" episodes for a much longer period of time this way! (If DBZ showed only one new episode a week like they did in Japan, we would have new episodes solidly into the year 2005, which would rock. As is, we still have some 150 episodes to go plus the original series and GT...)

Fire Storm- Where did the year go? I dunno. I still remember the CR talking about Y2K and worrying about the room crashing... In fact, I believe the RP I did on new years involved Thailog killing everyone at Milliways (the resteraunt at the end of the universe) and the universe blowing up... Only for everything to be reset the next day...

Mary- Bill Cosby does a GREAT routine about parenting. He also has a book on parenting I think.
Oh wait, someone already mentioned that... Bill failing, Dana Carvey has an hour long special that airs on Comedy Central every couple of weeks that deals with wacky kids. Especially "NAKED TIME!"

And if you're looking for guidance on Ranma and Akane as a married couple, I think Daigakusei no Ranma does the best job around... I'll provide a link if you want.

James- If Rita turned over a new leaf, I'd be scared. Hearing that awful voice in villain scenes is bad enough! If she was one of the goodguys, it would be even worse! Especially that hat!

Joxter- Nice to see ya again. You haven't been on AIM in a while. (Or have I just missed you?) As far as why I didn't defend DBZ against Paul's claims, I didn't know he'd insulted it. I stopped reading his posts a few days ago. But, since he doesn't even like SHAKESPEARE, I don't see much point in bothering to try defending it against him. I love the show, that's all that matters, and I'm trying to avoid a flame war that several posters keep coming dangerously near.

And now my ride is here, gotta go! Laters!
Robby
Saturday, October 28, 2000 06:46:09 PM
IP: spider-wq013.proxy.aol.com

8th.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Saturday, October 28, 2000 06:37:10 PM
IP: gside.resnet.rutgers.edu

Seventh
James Birdsong
Saturday, October 28, 2000 06:13:03 PM
IP: adsl-63-207-128-27.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net

**UNSUBSCRIBE HELP**
Ok, I subscribed to Winvite. Now, I can not seem to unsubscribe to Winvite. I visited their website and tried to unsubscribe, but I still get that darn email.
**END UNSUBSCRIBE HELP**

**truth in advertising**
Ok, this temp at where I am working told me that she filled out an application to work there FULL-TIME and ended up working for a temping agency instead. Is that not illegal?
**end truth in advertising**

I am going to work on a list of signs that a company is NOT employee friendly. I will probably post that list next week.

That's all for now.

DPH - [dph_of_rules@yahoo.com]
AR, USA
Saturday, October 28, 2000 06:01:07 PM
IP: max1-70.cwy.cei.net

Crumbs, looks like a high-ish place. Fifth or something.
Ed
Saturday, October 28, 2000 05:56:45 PM
IP: webcacheh07a.cache.pol.co.uk

Gah... I was up till four last night writing rebuttals, and I STILL didn't get the post finished... So far, about nine hours have gone into this baby. I have no life. :P
*********Weather Rant*********
Texas SUCKS! It's the end of October, and it's still uncomfertably warm outside! The weather hasn't even had the decency to change from summer to fall yet! ;P
*********End Rant************

Anyway, enough about me. Roll replys.

Coyote><<**sigh** Just seems t'get worse, y'know? now not only does my finger hurt, my left arm now hurts where they gave me the tetanus booster on Wednesday.>> Sounds like you shoulda stood in bed... :P Get better soon, hear?

Delphi - Thanks for the "Dear God" stuff... Real cute! :D

Kryryn><<"Sit down, John! Sit down, John! For God's sake, John, sit down!" ROFL! Glad there's another fan out there.>> "Here a Lee, there a Lee, everywhere a Lee a Lee!" :D I love that show!

Stephen Sobotka><<Turns out, he was a former co-worker of mine that I had been told had died a year ago, due to cancer!>> o_O ...Whoa!

David G. - *Valentine reads the begginning of the post, and bows his head in sympathy*
You and Jenny will both be in my prayers... Hang in there, ok?
*Valentine reads the rest of the post, and his eyes gleam with fierce joy*
It is very, VERY good to know that I'm not the only one.
Good to meet you, brother! :D
<> Friggin' A. <<Mostly what I mean here is a contradiction of the modern thought that "all religions are right. They're just parts of a greater truth.">> See my post to Toku below. And I thought I was being origional when I wrote it, too...:)
<<I'm going to do my best to be a good example, and a good friend, and to help you if you need it. Then, maybe some day you'll be ready to hear what I have to say.>> I prefer to go head-to-head with other people in logical dialogue, in the hope that we cabn discover which of our faiths is actually right. Besides, I like debate. :)

SJ><<All those spells make us nervous, and, well, we sort of burned them at the stake...>> Irionicly enough, most of the really famous witch burnings that I can think of involved *Christians* being burned for refusing to confess and recant witchcraft... At least to my understanding... <<This is one of those shows that I watch, but I'm sorta embarassed for watching. Know what I mean? I mean, in a way, it's sort of like a "girlie" cartoon>> Are you kidding!?? PPG is the greatest! So what if they look like toy dolls? They beat people down and blow stuff up! What more do you want? Tentacles? ;D

Doug><<True, but Kit also keeps a charging taser in the outlet next to the bed every night, so we probably won't have to worry about guns too much if a burglar attacks us in our beds.>> Heh. I don't have enough money for a Taser, so I just keep a boken and a few knives... <<Kit also wanted me to tell you she apologizes for mixing you and Gasper up in her big post this week, the similar color of text threw her off.>> No problem. :) I *thought* she had, but I was too tired to go back and check... :P

Gside><<Pong rocks my world. And I had so much fun getting that amphibian across that road.>> I can almost *hear* the L33tness bleeding out of you... ;) <<Then it looks like the only thing you can do is raise the roof.>> Or I *could* learn to stretch carefully... :) <<It wouldn't be Non Nobis without the singing. What do you take me for?>> A really cool guy who gives me illegal and obscure music? <<But at least give him a horn. The hat should be for pure red mages.>> Aw, but I LIKE the hat! Actually, I was considering giving him a Black mage's witch hat. Though the horn idea is pretty cool... <<>>: Ha ha. They're coming to take me away, ho ho. Hee hee. Ha ha. To the happy home, with trees and flowers and chirping birds and basket weavers who sit and smile and twiddle their thumbs and toes and they're coming to take me away ha ha.>> I prefer the Ross Perot version... :) <<1. appealing to a personal interest, emotion, or prejudice rather than to rationality. 2. attacking an opponent personally rather than attacking his or her argument.">> Gah, but I hate those... ;P

Gasper><<well, my thoughts right now...are WHY didn't we get McCain instead of Bush....>> There's a reason that *DEMOCRATS* were voting for McCain in some of the republican primaries... Personally, I'd rather have Gore in the white house than McCain; at least then it'd be the opposition that was trashing me, instead of my own party...
And, considering the fact that I'm a pro-gun, anti-abortion, smaller-government conservative who plays violent video games, Gore will REALLY hit me hard if he makes it... :P
Oh, and congrats on the apology. It takes courage to admit you were wrong. :)

Warpmind><<enough to make me doubt the approximation of the GURPS Lite copy I already have on my desk...>> Nope, that's all you really need... Though I'll kill before I give up my Ultratechs, and I'd rather chop off my left hand than part with V2... :) It's a GOOD life! <<in all categories of fiction (sci-fi and fantasy as well as erotica), there's quality stuff written with care and diligence (not Wells Fargo), and there's the cheap stuff that is mostly just old stuff that is rehashed, ripped off and reassembled into easily digestible material that, in the end, isn't worth the paper it's printed on...>> True, but if I'm not mistaken, you dropped Les Miserables and Mark Twain into the catagory of "Good Smut"... o_O <<When stating that there is no Absolute Truth, you establish that as an Absolute Truth, thereby rendering your own claim false...>> I've heard that one often, but it just lacks force for me... So I prefer to argue the point in my own crude way. See my reply to Paul's Logic statements... :) <<Is it just my eyes, or did you accidentally press the "Submit" button four times? ;)>> ;P ...I was hoping that robby or someone would wipe those bits out. I was switching back and forth between the CR window and the Reply window, didn't check to make sure the reply box was selected, and tried to type a sentence. Every time I hit the spacebar, it posted. Sorry about that... <<Best o'luck on those design things... and while you're at it, are you likely to accept requests? I've got this nifty little combat/climbing/running claw idea, loosely based on the gargoyle hands and feet...>> In dragoon, Edge uses claws both to fight with and to climb wooden walls and trees...

Mary><<Anyone here know any great comdians other than Robin Williams who've talked about expecting a baby and parenting? I'm gonna need some more inspiration to listen to to make this work. ;)>> Try Bill Cosby's "Parenthood"... It's a book, and it's drop-dead funny!

Selanit><<It was nerve-wracking. I'm making a target of myself. And I'm doing it on behalf of a group of people that I don't like. What a great way to start the weekend.>> *Valentine stands on his desk and applauds* Good Form! It's nice to see someone standing up for true free speech every once in a while...

DPH><<Woo, heavy duty stuff is being mentioned.>> Just you wait! :D <<How does a tobacco farmer who sells his/her product to a cigarette manufacturer sleep at well at night, knowing that her/his income comes at the expense of other people's health? I can not figure that one out.>> Probably by telling himself, truthfully, that it's their choice to make. No one in America HAS to smoke.

Jaden><<I went to the eye doctor on Friday and the doc dialated (I guess that's how it's spelled) my eyes. A very weird experience and I recommend it to anyone who has ever wondered what it's like to be blinded by even the smallest ray of light.>> Cool, aint it? :D Did you check out your eyes in a mirror?

L. Stone><<Closed minded people- Hmmm, I had a run in with one of those kind of people a few days ago(ones agains't Gays.) Thank goodness I was with friends that help back me up.>> And now you've met another one, I suppose. :P ...And before you recoil in horror, I don't believe in pistolwhipping people or firebombing houses. I simply believe that some actions fall under the catagory of "sins", and we all commit them in one form or another... *shrugs*
Maybe someday you can hit me with the logic you used, and maybe you can help a benighted heathen. Stranger things have happened...

Firestorm><<Simple. Everyone who watches the damn thing. :)>> ROFL! :) Thanks, I needed that... <> *Feels his thin wallet* I'm not... Fortunately, I've got enough squirreled away to snag it... I'm just waiting until I've got enough time to enjoy it.

Paul - The responces to your logic statements are below, in the "REALLY INVOLVED LOGIC ARGUEMENTS!" Section. These responces are to the more mundane parts of your post.
<<I'm not going to bother dealing with your various attacks, as they are inaccurate.>> *Raises a tentative hand* Ah, it might be nice to accept his apology... Just a thought... <<DRAGONBALL animes are pieces of trash, mentioning them in the same paragraph as good animes and/or good stories is an insult.>> Why? What makes DB trash? Bad plot? Bad characterization? Bad art? All of the above? I've heard you make the assertion several times, but I still hyaven't heard concrette reasons.
<> What's the big deal, other than the spite involved? So we know your age. *shrugs* Age doesn't matter in here; Ideas do.
<<And your point is refutable, simply because even if console Role-Playing Games aren't completely non-linear that doesn't make them better.>> No, his point *ISN'T* refutable. A tabletop game has total freedom, while a CRPG does not. The total freedom, if used correctly, makes the game much more personal and engaging, and allows something that CRPGs can't really begin to provide: true *ROLEPLAYING*! By the way, the above are actually *facts*, not opinions. They are based on the easily percieved limits of CRPG technology.
<<What's 'street mime'?>> You know, those guys who paint thier faces white and pretend to be feeling their way along invisable walls?
<> Than you're either the messaih of art, a phillistine, or mistaken about yourself. Are you really saying that if I offered you a choice of playing an epic RPG or reading a children's book about Fluffy the Bunny, you wouldn't have a preference? Both are stories, but past experience and *PERSONAL PREFFERENCE* would almost definatley guide you toward one or the other...
<<No, I meant there are no absolute truths save that absolute truths are nonexistent.>> I'll get to this later, but for now, I'll call it Bull Puckey.
<<The 'always right'/'I only seem like I'm arrogant' attacks on me are inaccurate. I'm getting tired of saying this.>> And this post, among others, is your chance to prove it. :D I've put forward a LARGE number of logical arguements below. Care to Logically refute them?
<<GURPS... Says who!? Better than DRAGONBALL Z, it quite possibly is, better than XENOGEARS, maybe not.>> Sez me! :) I consider myself something of a master at Plotting (and I'm humble, too! :P). When I finish "A Bridge of Swords" in a few years, you can judge me. :)
<<As for how good XENOGEARS is... Check it out and see for yourself, please.>> I *CAN'T*! :( I haven't played the game yet, and I don't want to spoil it!
<<*Gunjack falls down and down. Gradually something takes shape below him... Something huge.
Seconds later Gunjack falls headfirst into a huge pie.*>> Do you, by any chance, own a large gun that goes by the name "Mr. C"? ;) Ooo, and I hope the pie was chocolate...
<<Who are you saying is right, me or David G.? I can't tell from your comments below, they could apply to either of us, possibly.>> I don't know which part you're talking about, and I'm too lazy to scroll down and find out... :P They support, whoever's arguement they agree with. *shrugs* Yup, I'm a lazy bum... :)
<<William Shakespeare may have invented some 'cliches' for England. Keep in mind, XENOGEARS originates from Japan.>> True, but Shakespeare's works reached Japan hundred of years before Vidio games even existed. Therefore, his "cliches" still have seniority. By the way, what ARE his cliches?
<<Plus, who says his work is original?>> History, I'm pretty sure... <<There might have been similar stories to his in his time anywhere, although they might not be as well known now.>> That's pure speculation, and HIGHLY unlikely at that. do you have any evidence of such stories? If not, then you must accept Shakespeare's originality until you find some.
<<Shakespeare's characters are shallow in what I've seen of him...>> Hamlet and Prince Hal are *Shallow*? In what way? Please give supporting evidence.
<> Of what? <<...just yesterday and the characters are *still* shallow. <<Shakespeare had a characterization aspect he did not make a good transit into in MACBETH, too.>> Don't know what aspect you're talking about, as I've never read MacBeth. Care to enlighten a fool? :D
<> What are these deep things? They certianly aren't Right and Wrong, as you've already rejected those. Also, they can't be Love, Mercy, Compassion, Faithfulness, Peace, Friendship, Justice or any of the other "great values", since your stance against truth eliminates all of them. (See below)
So what deep things are left?
<<My points on William Shakespeare... Shallowness, so far, in what I've seen. XENOGEARS is by no means shallow, thus its much much better.>> I'm afraid our dialogue is crippled here by my ignorance. I've only seen or read Hamlet, Much Ado About Nothing, Twelth Night, Comedy of Errors, The Taming of The Shrew, The Merchant of Venice, and King Henry V, and I'm too busy to read much more at the moment... If and when you get around to any of the plays on the list above, could you point out the shallowness to me?
<<'Truths' can refer to many things, not just an 'absolute'.>> The qickest route to confusion is to have one word mean two things. In an attempt to use precise language, I define "Truth" (usually with a capital T) as real truths such as "1+1=2", "A is not not-A", and other inarguable facts. Subjective "truths" such as "Xenogears is better than Shakespeare" are really either opinions or statements, and as such are not True until proven logically.
<<So don't say everyone thinks their opinions are true, please.>> I didn't mean to, as my references to Truth have little to do with opinion.
Out of curiousity though, why do you continue to hold your opinions if you don't believe you are right? Isn't an opinion a belief about what IS; That is, a belief about how the world really works?
<<Thus 'absolute truth' is not redundant.>> I prefer to use the word Truth for irrefutable fact, out of the belief that it is more precise. In that context, "Absolute" IS redundent.
<<There is a base left for condemning actions even if there are no absolute truths.>> I'll hit this in the debate section below. For now, I'll simply disagree. STRONGLY.
<<Willy Shakes is *not* the standard for good English literature, there are plenty other good stories than his from before his time and around it that could also be considered standard.>> No English author that I'm aware of, and very few from any other culture, have made such a deep and long-lasting impression on their culture. Can you name one who has?

**************REALLY INVOLVED LOGIC ARGUEMENTS!*************
Toku - It's good to see you again, 'mano... :) It's a pity you can't get in here more often, especially, since I'm about to take serious issue with most of your post... :P
I wish I could see your replies. Ah well, maybe next time... <<Thanks for the nice comment about the 10.>> So that was *YOU*. I wondered about that... Good stuff, by the way.
*reads the Religion stuff, and kicks back with a gleam in his eye* Heh. And I just got done studying this stuff... Let's ROCK!
<<On top of that, a new or reborn movement has to deal with the plague of being perceived as the new kid on the block.>> I would disagree. The twin problems new religions face are proving that they are true and aren't dangerous. The first problem is a real doozy, as most religions throughout history have conflicted in one way or another with the facts of life. Personally, I think this is a good thing. Religions are more than a little dangerous, and any religion that isn't grounded in reality is a loose cannon.
<<It also has to deal with weeding out the old structures in order to apply the core values to create new dogma for new circumstances.>> I'm sorry, but this is badly incorrect. Religions make claims about Truth, about what IS. Those claims, for the most part, consist of the "structures" and "dogma" that you advocate changing. Truth does not change because of circumstances. The only valid reason for altering "dogma" (I REALLY hate that word) is if it is found to diverge from reality.
Also, I find your separation of "dogma" and "core values" disturbing, as it seems to reflect a viriliant and severly flawed view of religion.
Take Christianity as an example: non-Christians look at the Bible, and they divide it's statements into two groups. They put all the friendly, simple, general Truths such as "love your nieghbor" and the Golden Rule on one side, and call them Core Values. Then they take the difficult, harsh, and condemning parts, the parts that actually form a detailed guide to what is Right and Wrong, and they shrug them off as "dogma".
This is wrong. The dogma that you speak about "weeding out" is a claim of Truth, and to simply alter it because of "circumstances" is the worst kind of intellectual dishonesty. If dogma is believed to be false, then it should be refuted, and the religion it belongs to should be subjected to close scrutiny. If it cannot be refuted, altering it because of public opinion is insane.
<<Older, more dogmatic religions...>> By "dogmatic", do you mean religions that ahve the audacity to claim to know Truth? <<...face the conflict of values stemming from many members who claim their membership from family traditions and force-association rather than a conscious choice and an alignment of values.>> You appear to be putting the cart before the horse. It is not the religion that experiences conflict with it's members, it is the members who experience conflict with the religion. A religion does not conform to it's members, they conform to IT.
<<You’d think, from a practical perspective, that similar religions would work together to combat the primary enemies of their core philosophies (typically human suffering, injustice, corruption).>> I think I was right. You DO believe that all religions boil down to the same thing, don't you? A quote:
"We believe that all religions are the same
At least the one we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ in matters of
creation sin heaven hell God and creation"
-Steven Turner, "Creed"

The above sums up the position you appear to be taking, and also illustrates the (whopping huge) hole in it. The "core philosophy" of Christianity has little to do with human suffering or injustice since both are transitory; the "core philosophy" is Eternal Salvation. Charity and mercy are REFLECTIONS of the core beliefs, not the core beliefs themselves.
I know you probably are too busy to reply, but it's a true pity. The views you expressed are in direct conflict with my own, and I'm always on the lookout for a good war of ideas... Oh well, maybe someone else can supply a rebuttal.

Paul - You, my friend, seem to have a serious case of nihlism. Let's see if we can chip it away from you, yes?
<<'Good' and 'evil'; 'right' and 'wrong' are also nonexistent concepts. All there are are opposing viewpoints.>> I suppose you could say rape is just a case of opposing viewpoints, but I doubt you'd call it that if it was your sister... *thinks a bit*
Do you realise that, by rejecting the concepts of "Good/Right" and "Evil/Wrong", logically you must permit EVERYTHING? You've just pissed away your ability to condemn murder, torture, rape, theft, kidnapping, extortion, molestation, and every other form of violence and perversion imaginable.
I doubt you realize it, but the only possible result of that philosophy is chaos. If there is no good and evil, why should I do anything that doesn't benefit me directly? And why should I *not* do something if I enjoy it? Your philosophy can't awnser either of those questions, and the conclusion is that, logically, I should whatever I want. Law and Justice, acording to you, are simply masks for mob rule. Democracy is a farce, and the true form of government is a dictatorship; rule of the strongest.
Trust is toast, because there's no base for it. How can I trust someone if they only care about themselves? Trust can only exist when a person is willing to treat his friend's interests the same as his own. Under the worldview that you've put forward, that kind of friendship is only for the foolish. And you can't really have love without trust, so that's gone too. Darn.

A rather bleak picture, isn't it? I doubt you intended to propose such a nightmarish vision, but these are the logical consequences of the statement "There is no Truth". Truth is the dam that holds back Evil (and deep down, I KNOW you believe in evil), and every good thing we humans have is built in it's shadow. If you can't recognise that fact, I fear you aren't being rational.
<<Thus the 'lies' analogy cannot exist.>> Well, at least you're being logically consistent... After all, if truth doesn't exist, then how can you lie? *sighs mournfully* Since you've already advocated rape and murder, I suppose supporting theft isn't such a big deal. And while we're at it, I hope you realize the statement you just made, if true, means that trust in any form equals suicide. Sounds like a darned unpleasent life to me...
*thinks a bit* ...Are you a Nihlist? If so, have you read Nietzche?
<<There is a base left for condemning actions even if there are no absolute truths. Because, you see, many people believe people should be entitled to certain things, and they don't want them removed.>> But you yourself said that those people are wrong. If there is no truth, then humanity is entitled to NOTHING. If I choose to ignore their complaints, you have no reason why I shouldn't.
<<As these ["]entitlements["] are often beneficial to people, and people who go against them aren't being beneficial, there's grounds to keep people from hurting people.>> The only "grounds" you leave for objection are purely subjective; thus, they have no power to restrict. Besides, what does "beneficial" mean? You've destroyed truth, so it's you're word against mine about whether an action is "beneficial". You can't give that authority to the majority, since you've declared that they're no closer to the truth than I am. All you can say is that you don't like what I do (I don't care), and that you'll try to stop me (and you can't). <<Preventing injury and various things are matters of keeping things in a way people like.>> But people disagree about what they like, and you've said that no one is right. Therefore, the pilot who drves a 747 into downtown New York because "Life is too painful, and I want to relieve my passengers of the burden" is the same as a doctor who saves thousands of lives in the emergency room. Both are applying their "truth" (opinion or statement) to those around them. <<Therefore often preventation of certain actions helps things (this is a viewpoint, true, but shared viewpoints like this make things what many people good better, and as many people strive for the good, to thus avoid pain, I think you can get why I use the context I do above).>> But if we disagree about what "makes things better", you can no longer tell me I'm wrong. You either have to try to stop me (in which case you are imposing your equally invalid views on another), or you have to bite the bullet. Literally.
<<Preventation of certain views and/or actions can also be bad, too, though. For instance, trying to crush anything different than the majority.>> *Wags a cautioning finger* Oh no you don't... Censorship is a belief too, and according to you, it is just as "true" as your belief in free speech. So when the thugs kick in your door to murder you for preaching "tolerance", you've got no right to complain. <<The key in creating a good life is not to base life on 'absolute truths' but to create ways (and if necessary, compromise on them with others) to make life enjoyable and free from harm.>> As I hope the arguements above demonstrate, you *CAN'T* have an enjoyable life free from harm *WITHOUT* Truth. If Truth doesn't exist, all that's left is force. Can you refute any of the above logicaly? I don't think so, but I'm looking forward to seeing you try... :)

<<That's not necessarily true. I've seen plenty successful, rational arguments that don't follow those methods.>> This *is* true. Think about it; a logical statement consists (as I'm sure you know) of an "if" and a "then". "If I douse myself in gasoline, then I'll be in pain". In order to try to prove a point logically, you have to get someone to agree to the "if" part, and hence find "common ground". If they refuse to agree that you *CAN* douse yourself in gasoline, then logical arguement of the point is impossible. That's why it always helps to define your terms at the begining of a debate...
<<What defines 'rational people'? Or a 'logic conclusion' or 'sound principles'?>> A rational person, in the end, is somone who will agree that "A is not not-A", and vise versa. In other words, they're willing to use and follow logic. Anyone who refuses to do this is crazy, and you can't tell anything to a crazy person... :)
Logical Conclusion: take two true statements, such as "Gasoline-soaked rags ignite when exposed to flame" and "Matches produce flame when struck." The logical conclusion is found by following the statements, like so: "Therefore, striking a match and touching it to a gasoline-soaked rag will cause the rag to ignite."
Principles: I think the principles, in the example above, are the first two statements. "Sound Principles" are statements that have been proven to be true.
<<There are so many opposing viewpoints that such aspects can't be applied to an argument.>> On the contrary, any arguement that doesn't follow those rules is, by definition, *illogical*!
<<If one is debating something, anything should be allowed in the debate.>> Well, it does help if the "something" actually has to do with the topic at hand... :P
<<Because one or more sides of an argument could have views that one, multiple, or all participants don't view as a logical conclusion from sound principles.>> He wasn't saying to exclude those people, he was saying that you have to find common ground. For example, If you and I discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of Dragonball, we have to define what makes an anime good... Thus finding common ground to build off of. <<Anyone who can hold a view is rational.>> This is untrue. "Rationality" is (I think?) a reference to logical consistency. If the person's view is proved to be illogical, and they reject the proof without refuting it, then they are by definition irrational.
<<There's no such thing as 'rational' or 'irrational', 'normal' or 'abnormal'; only opposing viewpoints. And everyone may have different 'sound principles' and 'logical conclusions'.>> As I've pointed out above, the first two are real logical terms, and the concepts behind them are valid. "Normal/abnormal" is a far more subjective catagory, but it too has a place. To continue with the Gasoline Motif, A normal person does not pour gasoline on themselves and strike a match.
<<Common ground isn't necessary, but making sure people understand one's words is necessary.>> But you *CAN'T* make someone understand your words unless you have the common ground of identical terms!
<<An emotional mode of argument can't do this if its absent logical mode arguments. If it incorporates logical mode arguments, it can.>> I think he's refering to purely emotional arguements...
<> I think it goes something like this: "there are three types of lies. Lies, Damned lies, and statistics". In other words, statistics are the worst type.
<<Logic differentiates per person, so does taste.>> I really should have caught this sooner, but better late than never. The "Logic" he (and I) are refering to isn't the quasi-logical worldview of the individual, but the *UNIVERSAL* Logic typified by the statement "A is no not-A". That kind of universal truth does NOT vary AT ALL.
Logic is the application of that universal truth to a problem. Taste, on the other hand, is a matter of preference; ie "chocolate tastes good".
<<There's no such thing as logical proof in any situation.>> *sighs* Ok, now you're starting to scare me. Are you sure we mean the same thing when we say "logic"? I've already stated my definition several times above. If you are rational, you will agree that it doesw, in fact, consist of the logical proof that you claim doesn't exist.
<<There's no absolute logical proof, though, again.>> "A is not Not-A" <- This IS absolute logical proof! If you prove that what you call a whale is a giant aquatic animal, and what you call a kitten is a small land animal, you have just proved that a whale is not a kitten. PLEASE tell me you can see this!
<<All of this is open to interpretation and thus can be argued.>> Art, for the most part, is subjective and not objective. Therefore, I can call a piece of cow dung art, if it truly stirs something within my soul.
<<You can say something is better, but you need to have reasons for it; if you don't you may get into a 'yes it is', 'no its not' argument and thus get nowhere.>> Agreed to some extent, but again, if the cow dung truly speaks to me, then to me it IS art.
<<Heck, no.>> Ever seen one of those shirtless, bearded, incredibly fat men standing on a street corner haraunging the multitudes? Is that REALLY how you wanna end up?
Let's take a simple example: if an Englishman and a Russian want to discuss something logically, one of them has to adapt at least a little and learn the other's language, yes? To build an arguement, you have to use logic, and you have to translate that logic into a "language" that your opponent can understand. This is, I think, what was meant by "Common Ground". I don't see how you can disagree with this without being irrational.
<<Any argument can be countered, any argument has the possibility of being won. It depends on if someone has the skill and/or ability to do so, though.>> Counter this arguement: A cat is not a spider. Some statements are inarguably True, no matter how much skill and ability you have.
<<Being right isn't important to me. There is no 'right' so how could it be important to me? What's important to me is getting some people to accept my views as valid interpretations that could exist within life, even if people won't practice them.>> If "Right" doesn't exist, why should you care if people agree with you? My views are just as good as yours, and there's no reason for me to listen to you since you've already said your stance is meaningless.
But I DO listen to you, because I belive truth exists and I
want to know if you have it.
<<Should the gargoyles have died off simply because they were different than the humans whose environment they shared?>> No, but they *did* adapt their lifestyle to account for human hostility. The adapt principle holds; you cannot expect others to conform to your wishes.
<<With that in mind, keep in mind there is no absolute origin, nature, method, and/or limit anywhere.>> As I've already attempted to point out, this statement is bull puckey. If you disagree, than give me a reason why I shouldn't murder some punk kid tomorrow. If you can't without appealing to Right and Wrong, you must either conceed the point or advocate murder. There is no third option.
<<There are 'objective truths' like, for instance, if I said "We were here.">> I'm glad you recognise SOME form of truth... I was half afraid you were going to declare me a figment of your imagination.
<<Which I do in many cases. This isn't the only place I've argued with people, although it may be the primary one where I've messed up in conveying my arguments. I know all the above 'shoulds'.>> Well, here's your chance to correct the messups! :D I've just taken positions directly opposing yours, and fired a broadside into your arguement. PLEASE fire back. :)
<<And, yes, there's no definitive answer... To most anything, if not anything.>> *Switches to singsong voice* Buuuull Puckeeeey... I'm sorry, and I'll retract that statement cheerfully when you rebutt the above arguements. I *EAGERLY* await your reply!
**********************END NIIY-GRITTY DETAILS***************

Anyway, I'm off. Time to go kick the Lich in FF1...

Havoc and War!
Gunjack Valentine - [miphsingleton@hotmail.com]
Saturday, October 28, 2000 05:42:32 PM
IP: 209-223-253-88.ausa.net

Hi everybody. Anyone out there know why On Holiday Pt. 2 seems to end in the middle of a paragraph.
Thanks.
Guardian
Saturday, October 28, 2000 05:41:19 PM
IP: c5800-10-bis.p429.btigate.com

Lynati: number two???? *slaps herself*
Anonymous
Saturday, October 28, 2000 05:40:58 PM
IP: 208.12.249.253

*Lynati Enters*

I am beating the cold!!

Joxter: The reason I wasn't outright defending DBZ in my earlier post was because as I said in the same post "You shouldn't comment on things when don't know the whole story."
As I don't know the whole story behind this xenogeers obsessed guy, I figured I couldn't step into the arguement without becomming a hypocrite. That's why I made that post so generalized. Also, I do not intend to become involved in said arguement, as after reading several of his posts and taking the time to logically analyze his arguemnts, I have decided that reading any of his posts are a waste of my time.
I'm sure many other fans of Dragonball feel this way, and simply decided not to respond because they didn't want to heat up an arguement that so many are obviously trying to stop.

Doug: No, they aren't posted...Yet. Does anyone out there host other fanfic series? Hmm...maybe I should try to get my own website or something. If I ever get my many-months-late graduation gift of a computer, maybe I will.
*Lynati's eyes go all distant and glazed*
hmmph? oh.
Are you going to the gathering? I am already considering bringing along copies of my fics. Although, I wonder if anyone there would have time to read them...

*Lynati wanders off, humming the theme to "inspector gadget"*
Lynati
Saturday, October 28, 2000 05:39:53 PM
IP: 208.12.249.253

I'm #1!!!!
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
New Orleans, Louisiana
Saturday, October 28, 2000 05:38:04 PM
IP: adsl-78-220-248.msy.bellsouth.net