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Greg Bishansky><and the future cannot be changed! >

Could you remind me when exactly was this established? My memory can be a little screwy at times...

I accept that in the Gargoyles universe, the past cannot be changed. But surely the future is always open to change? Speaking from a storytelling standpoint (Telling stories is what TGS is about right?), having an immutable future COMPLETELY wrecks dramatic tension in a story.

It means that you can't build dramatic tension with dangerous situations, because there is no fear on the readers part that something serious may happen to one of the characters about who's future we know. They HAVE to survive because there's stuff they have to do yet.

Plus, it can make the reader feel that the characters have no control over their destinies or what they do. If everything that is going to happen can't be changed in any way, then it doesn't matter what the characters do, since its going to turn out the way its going to turn out regardless. And hurting the significance of the things your characters are doing is never a good idea in any story.

My advice as a writer of seven years? If it is AT ALL possible, keep the future open to change. Even if it is just minor change. The Gargoyles stories could suffer otherwise, in my opinion.
cyberklaw
London, UK
Saturday, March 30, 2002 05:19:32 PM
IP: 152.163.197.176

A moment of silence out of respect for our British fans.

[i am a savant for writing that previous post :(
Leo
Saturday, March 30, 2002 02:17:06 PM
IP: 172.153.116.247

Well, the big news is that the "Queen Mum" died today. [you're going to incorporate this in "Pendragon" right Todd?]

This is going to sound insensitive but I hope this won't be as big of a media event as Diana.

Leo
Saturday, March 30, 2002 02:02:49 PM
IP: 172.141.204.252

NO JURY DUTY!!!!!

Sushi was good we also had Sake with the sushi.
And I Have finished my realm. Click on my name...

Now a small question that might cause some discussions.

If Dominique decide to sun bath would she tan or freckle.
Comments and pics of Ms Destine in a bikini are welcome...

Replies

Patrick<<<but these two stupid kids from San Dimas ran down the batteries on the Wayback machine. ;) >>>Whoa Dude, Makes me wish I lived near a circle K.

Leo<<<They also own a Mercedes but still live in the same house J>>>my brother made the same observation.

DPH<<<Why does everyone want to avoid jury duty?>>>I have a good escuse. I have a paper to work on and Finals are coming up.

Gside<<<Were Wilek to eat more bran>>>They have some very tasty variations of Raison Bran <<<or Fire Storm to feel more talkative>>>I have ways of making him talk..Does he prefer his Lawyers BBQed or fried?

Warpmind<<<You're planning to make SJ slave away his days in your kitchen? };)>>>Of course what woman can resist a man who cooks?..Actually I have other plans once I break into Crzy’s secret stash…
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, USA
Saturday, March 30, 2002 01:37:25 PM
IP: 67.25.51.36

*Warpmind strolls in, humming softly.*
Hiho, gang.

Tribun: So Hudson doesn't have a Scottish accent in German, eh? Well, personally, I think this would qualify as a small blessing, don't you think? ;)

spacebabie: You're planning to make SJ slave away his days in your kitchen? };)

Skippy: That's what I figured - I'm sure there are technologically feasible ways of tracking e-mail, mind you. Of course, none of them are legal, and I'm sure that, say, the NSA don't want people to know they have'em. ;) As for those Nigerians, isn't it suspicious that they all seem to have 127M USD just lying around for foreigners to handle? ;)

Christine: Go right ahead. I was considering looking up the D&D Dirty Spellbook for GURPSifying, but I guess that wouldn't be permitted anyway, eh? };)

Todd: You... didn't get the reference? *Gasp* Folks, we need to give Todd a crash course in horror movies, starting with Raimi/Campbell! ;p

DPH: To your question, yes, it is probably possible to make a car run without fossil fuels like you described. However, odds are that the driver and the car's surroundings will begin to glow...

Gside: Do I think it would shock you? *Insane giggle* My friend, I fear it would shock even you... Although, I think Wilek and Fire Storm might look at it unaffected... };) As for the Evil Dead movies and Oscars - I thought they bagged Special Effects awards, is all... And I take back NO comment about the cheddar on the pizza. *Smirk* What'cha gonna do about it, anyway? You're an engineer; physical excercise isn't exactly the most common trait among engineers. };)

Valentine: I'll try to explain how I see international economy as zero-sum: I consider EVERYTHING as part of international economy; everything from the most basic foodstuffs to "priceless" pieces of art. The interesting aspect of this view is that cold, hard cash does, in the long run, amount to very little. Should a crisis occur, who do you think would survive? The one who hoarded cash, or the one who stocked up on canned food? Oh, and I must say, that rifle sounds like a marvel. What's the bore size? Custom, or standard? :)

Well, that seems to conclude my post. See y'all later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@hotmail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Saturday, March 30, 2002 08:10:41 AM
IP: 193.216.46.105

Mmmm... An evening of romantic music and sniper rifles.It seems rather perverse to declare that everything in life is a reference to death, but it's certianly the truth for music.

Latest project - No-name sniper rifle, mounting about 8 pounds of scope, IFF interogator, IR spotlight, and laser rangefinder. If I can get some leverage on the coders, we'll have a gun that illuminates and identifies enemies on the fly, under all lighting and weather conditions. Joy.

In other irrelevent news, I drew first blood on Ebay (soundtrack to the anime Noir; anyone heard of it?), and discovered one of my favorite pairs of jeans rotting in a garbage bag, where they'd been left soaking wet for over a month. Kiddies, remember to clean your rooms often.

And to conclude, I hate you all.

Replies.

Gside><<But everyone will be considered challenged by someone else. And a modicum of pride doesn't really hurt.>> The term "geographically-challenged, if used by an american, would be an obvious sign of culteral arrogance. On the other hand, I was just joking.
<<Ah. My mind is more in the direction of wrongness than not niceness.>> It's been a bad week.

Tactical Lesson Via Rock Star #378: A 12-gauge shotgun firing 00 buck delivers nine .36-caliber pellets with each pull of the trigger. These pellets disperse at a rate of one inch of spread per yard traveled, on the average. Since the human brain is roughly 3.5x5x3inches, this would indicate an ideal range of 3 yards or less for optimal lethal energy transfer on a headshot. Contact release is, naturally, the ideal.
Thanks, Kurt!

Time Travel: My preferred model is the "actions taken rewrite history in one direction only" paradigm. So if you went back in time and, say, killed your grandfather, your parent would never be born, and the future would be changed. You, however, would continue living happily, as you are located BEHIND the wave and thus impervious to the overwrite. For the rewrite to reach back and wipe you (thus creating a paradox), you would still need to be connected to the future being overwritten.
...
Why am I writting this? I hate time travel. If I ever meet Marty McFly, I'll hit him into next week. Literally.
...
Oh well, might as well continue. Time travel (at least the Holiwood kind) is either a physical impossibility, or ielse it won't be developed before we all get sick of the whole SJ/Destine flame cycle, and decide to dine out at the sociopolitical KFC that is thermonuclear holocaust.
Why? Because if time travel were invented, it WOULD have been (mis)used, and we would have people popping in all over the place. In a universe where time-travel exists, all points in time become interconnected. The ramifications make my head hurt, but "past", "present" and "future" as social concepts are completely destroyed throughout all of time.
So, NYAH.

Warpmind><> ...So, in other words... There's a maximum amount of money available in the economic system, and amassing it in one place means that it becomes scarce in another place?
I've honestly never been able to figure out how this idea works.
<<As for me being a bigot, I think not.>> ...I'm not going to dignify that with a responce.

Crap. When'd it turn 1:45 on m? last I checked, it was only midnight...
Bugger.

Goodnight, and, ah, thanks for joining us...

PS - An extremely loud *bang* just rocked the hallway, and now I'm smelling smoke. I dearly hope the #$%@%ers blew their #@%&* heads off...
Gunjack "Worf" Valentine
Saturday, March 30, 2002 02:45:09 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

I have seen the last episode of Excel Saga. So very wrong. "Let me help you wash that," the love hotel, the fountains of blood...

DPH> <<fixed in the same manner as the aformentioned coach>>: But I'd think sports teams would want aggressive coaches. After all, the best defence is a good offence.

Warpmind> <<That comment on the vasectomy... That's Ghastly>>: Give the man a cigar.
<>: You think it would shock me?
<<Just make sure you don't have Frog in the party when you hook up with the Magus after the Ocean Palace>>: I thought you still got the choice.
<<Didn't at least two out of the three Evil Dead movies hook Oscars?>>: Not a one got a nomination. They got other stuff, of course.
<<skip the Cheddar>>: Good sir, take back that comment, or my hand shall be forced.

Spacebabie> <<Some small replies....Dam'n I miss Josh>>: Eh, we're just low on massive posters. Were Wilek to eat more bran, or Fire Storm to feel more talkative, Imzadi's absence would not be as noticable.
<<Crap you figured out my secret>>: I wouldn't have figured Wily as the type. But then he does create only men.

Gunjack> <<The term "-Challenged" implies that there's something wrong with the country they came from origionally>>: But everyone will be considered challenged by someone else. And a modicum of pride doesn't really hurt.
<<Ever heard that quote to the effect that if you don't have anything nice to say, you shouldn't say anything?>>: Ah. My mind is more in the direction of wrongness than not niceness.

Time travel: One opinion is that everything happened the way it happened because of the actions of the people who were there, and if you traveled there, you were there to begin with, so you decided to do what led to what happened. The other opinion doesn't have nice things to say about the first.

Mooncat> <<your future self will not have a reason to go back in time to save MLK>>: Perhaps history recorded who the savior was, and you know that if you don't, no one will.

Todd Jensen> <<As in, what's the significance of the chain-saw and sawn-off shotgun?>>: Ash from the Evil Deads.

And some Tom Petty for the mp3. Breakdown, to be specific.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscatway, NJ
Saturday, March 30, 2002 01:37:29 AM
IP: 198.151.130.133

cyberklaw - I have to agree with you on that point. Personally, I don't think the stories "Requiem" and "Games Without Frontiers" should have been published within Timedancer. If history is going to immutable, damn it, you have some clear limits about stories that occur in the future (generally avoidance/keep everyhting self-contained). IMHO, Timedancer should not be used to nail down events in history, but rather provide a behind-the-scenes look in certain events in history that have already been established. I used to view Timedancer as one of the most unrestricted series until I really thought about it. Timedancer could be used in a variety of different ways: establish the timeline for events, provide backstory for various characters and historical events, or give Brooklyn nightmares. I'm sure I have not listed all the ways you could use Timedancer.

66 more questions (unless I counted wrong) until Ask Greg catches up to one of my questions. Greg Weisman seemed to be in a pretty generous when he answered some of the questions today (or does not want to answer those questions again).

Damn it, I am going sick of my computer losing track of time when I run a certain program that requires DOS mode. I have a theory that I have found some "bug" in Windows with this problem. I probably should call Gateway technical support and make them cough up an answer to my problem.

Good news: One book I have been trying to read will finally be available to me through April 9 according to a Postcard.

Yep, this post was accumulated from Thursday. Not enough for me to respond to for me to make a medium sized post.

Tribun - I have never heard of languages called "Gargman" or "Garman". On the other hand, I've heard of German.

Spacebabie - Easy ways to avoid jury duty: keep with current events by reading the newspaper and watch television. Why does everyone want to avoid jury duty?

Happy birthday Christine!!

I hate to bring the moral issue up again, but this is a dumb question: What is the minimium amount of basic selfless society has to have in order to surive (and maybe thrive)? The only basic rules I could think of were the following:
1)It is wrong to kill another person except under certain conditions.
2)It is wrong to steal another person's property except under certain conditions.
3)It is wrong to harm another person or his/her property except under certain conditions.

Time Travel - My own theory about the Time Enforcers is they can't catch everything and they really are trying to prevent temporal paradoxes. My favorite time travel question involves the series Highlander: If an immortal (over 500 years old) traveled back in time and was killed by past self early on, how powerfull would that immortal be after he/she killed himself/herself?

Here's a stupid question: Is it really possible to produce a n id card that can't be altered? All they could do is make it more expensive to create false id cards. Let's say the security system ran by scanning fingerprints. Fine, no problem there because we can just hack into that computer system to change the fingerprints for a said individual. Why are we wanting to attack the arrow instead the archer? Or why do we want to treat the syptoms of the disease instead of the disease? Wouldn't it be a lot more effective to eliminate the movitation for the terrorist attacks? Too bad we can't boycott Arab oil until they agree to solve the root cause of the problem.

Stupid question: is it possible to have a car powered completely by something other than fossil fuels that can go up to 100mph without having to make frequent pit stops for fuel regardless of weather conditions?
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, March 30, 2002 01:03:22 AM
IP: 204.94.193.81

PATRICK - <>

For my own part, I'm surprised that Peabody would let them anywhere near it. (Come to think of it, what happened to their original machine? Did it finally get impounded after copyright complaints from the people who made "Dr. Who"?)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, March 29, 2002 10:30:09 PM
IP: 168.191.102.66

Tribun: <These are bad excuses for gargoyles. They are as much real gargoyles as the monsters of the muppets show are real monsters. This so-called "clan" is a bunch of softies ,loosers and arrogant guys">

I guess you could argue that the future manhattan clan seems to run more like a "human" business:
Artus, leader of the clan has his own office, (and from his sister's point of view basically leads FROM his office and barks orders to his "grunts") Basically gargoyles have adopted more "human" attitudes and customs. Maybe to some "conservative"/"traditionalist" gargoyles it would seem that old "clan values" aren't taken seriously anymore - gargoyles are becoming too "human".

But there have only been 4 (2 2-part) episodes during the "Artus Administration" af the Manhattan clan. Hopefully we'll discover more in the next season. [I have to admit though that parts of "crossroads, part 1" reminded me of "Cowboy Bebop"]

<You've said nonsense ,here the correct spelling: "Sie haben eine sehr gute Webseite."> I wanted to use something other than "very good", I was trying to say something like "super-cool." I wasn't sure of "Webseite"'s gender. (yeah, I forgot. Capitals on all nouns)

<Oh ,and in the German version ,Hudson dosn't have a scottish accent.> Just like in the German version of "Starwars": Luke's voice is deeper than Darth Vader's

<Translation Test>

1."Der Anfang einer jeden Katastrophe ist eine beschissene Vermutung!"> Was this from Gargoyles?
Very loose translation: "The beginning of every disaser is a wild guess"?

Hmm..."beschissene". Probably a stupid question but Does that have anything to do with Scheiss?

2.<"Diese Kreaturen waren abstossend und haesslich, des Lebens nicht wert. Welch ein Glueck, dass wir ihren gesamten Clan vernichtet haben!" (city of stone 4)> "Those creatures were (insert negative adjectives), unworthy of living. Lucky that we desrtroyed her entire clan!"

3. Introductory monologue to the second season.

I cheated on a few words but reading is always easier than speaking.

That was fun.

Spacebaby: Back to the Future <Marty returns home. His parents are an attractive cool couple, His brother has a good job and boys chase his sister.> They also own a Mercedes but still live in the same house :-)

Leo
Friday, March 29, 2002 10:29:41 PM
IP: 172.162.231.33

PATRICK> I was referring to time travel in "Gargoyles" only, I was not saying that discussion of time travel in other stories, or possible real time travel is inappropriate.
Greg Bishansky
Friday, March 29, 2002 10:14:43 PM
IP: 216.179.3.154

Way to squelch the conversation there, Greg. The time travel talk has only been the first interesting thing to happen in here in weeks that didn't involve rants and flames.

I wish I could travel back in time to fifteen minutes ago and stop you from posting that... but these two stupid kids from San Dimas ran down the batteries on the Wayback machine. ;)
Patrick Toman
Friday, March 29, 2002 10:10:46 PM
IP: 66.72.192.108

Time Travel

I don't care how the rules for this work in other universes. But in "Gargoyles" and "TGS". Time cannot be changed. The past cannot be changed, the present cannot be changed, and the future cannot be changed!

Those are the rules as Greg Weisman established them. You don't like them? Tough! Go read X-Men for messed up time travel stories that make no sense.

That's it, end of discussion.
Greg Bishansky
Friday, March 29, 2002 09:59:57 PM
IP: 216.179.3.154

Greetings;

Well it's been about two months so I figure this is as good a time as any to rear my ugly head again. For the most part I have read the CR at least once a week, but could never find the time to post. Now my supervisor is out of town for a week and the lab is surprisingly silent (when the cat's away...well let's just say we are all mice)

Warpmind: I've been getting those emails also, trust me they are bogus unless they provide a link to some site that does monitor the spread of the e-mail. E-mails themselves have no way of tabulating the number of times that they have been sent although they may carry a program that will do this as an attachment. All summed up these are the same as chain letters, just in e-format. You remember those, the ones that promised grave misfortune unless you sent them off to 10 of your friends... same idea.

Time Travel: There have been some very interesting theories put forward on this topic, many only in recent years. As I am not a physicist the math in these papers is well beyond my grasp (I think it's well beyond the grasp of many in the field as well) but the concepts are an interesting exploration of the interrelationship of space-time.

First the facts:

1. Time and Space are linked: Well this is a give-in; we have known this for almost 100 years now.

2. Both time and space are mutable: Once again this has been shown experimentally. In the case of time, the theory of relativity has shown how time is a mutable force (the faster you go the slower time goes from a relative perspective). The fact that space is also mutable is only now being experimentally explored. Basically it involved the dilation or contraction of a region of space to change the distance between two points.

3. Time travel is theoretically possible: I must stress that being theory and being fact are two completely different things. The theory of relativity clearly states that it is impossible to travel at the speed of light. You end up with a division of X/0 which is infinite. This means infinite mass, infinite energy, oh yeah and time stops. However there is nothing saying that you cannot travel faster than light. It's a bit of a strange concept but you can travel faster than light, you just can't move at the same speed as light. What this means, in the terms of the equation is that going faster than light leads to negative mass, negative energy and time moving backwards. Time travel...right, the only problem is that you still have to cross that light barrier.

4. The speed of light is not fixed: There were two major breakthroughs in 1999-2000 about the speed of light. In the first experiment, scientists were able to stop a photon of light, in essence freeze it in time, and then release it again, with no loss in its energy. In the same year a team manager to send a signal across a gas filled chamber at almost 8.7*10^8 m/s, this is over two times the speed of light in a vacuum (Supposedly the fastest speed possible). What does this mean; if the speed of light could be controlled it may be possible (in few centuries) to alter the speed of light relative to an object and in essence bypass the light barrier, by changing the speed of light instead of speeding up the object. I don't really understand how but hey I won't be alive when they try it out.

On to time travel: When it comes to the production of paradoxes by changing the past, I don't think that this is possible. You could kill off the entire population of X (fill in whatever country has pissed you off today) and it would not cause you to disappear, why; because you would have become integrated into whatever temporal continuum you were currently in. Going back to the future would only bring you to the current future of the time line produced by your actions.

How can we prove theories on time travel...well we can't. Even if we could, should we try?

In the Timedancer universe, I always felt that Brooklyn was capable of changing the past, he made a choice (or had it made for him) to not attempt to change the past.

Goodnight

Yggdrasil - [eng050599@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Friday, March 29, 2002 09:53:27 PM
IP: 24.102.228.58

WARPMIND - No, he's unarmed. Why? (As in, what's the significance of the chain-saw and sawn-off shotgun?)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, March 29, 2002 06:42:40 PM
IP: 168.191.109.143

Happy Birthday Christine!!!!

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Friday, March 29, 2002 05:56:50 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Warpmind > unless you don't want me to include the spells. If you tell me no, I won't.

Update > got mentioned in another review of the zombie book, put up a cute birthday pic Noel sent me (thanks, Noel!), etc. Clickie or go to http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/new_stuff.html for the latest.
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Friday, March 29, 2002 04:50:20 PM
IP: 67.226.12.206

**emerges briefly from code review to pop her head in**

Time travel> I'm not gonna get into the ramifications of changing/not changing the past. As for writing stories involving time travel... I read this one story a while back which, aside from being incredibly confusing, put forth the theory that time is self-repairing (e.g. if you went back in time and shot yourself, you would cease to exist, but the cause of your death would become a heart attack or something accidental).

Sounds like a lame excuse to avoid any potential ramifications, but that isn't why I liked it. What was interesting about the story was the end decision: when the protagonist recovered from his amnesia and realized he'd been sent back in time to ensure that his future came to pass, he decided NOT to do it. He couldn't return to his own time anyway, and of all the possibilities, the future he came from was fairly lousy. And it sort of ended there. As a whole, the story was a bit fragmented and scattershot, but that was a fairly new twist for me.

YES! Five minutes til I get off work... and then I get to go home and reformat my hard drive... fun.
Mandolin
Friday, March 29, 2002 03:52:58 PM
IP: 199.173.224.20

<<<Warpmind>>>
Just received another e-mail calling me callous and heartless if I didn't forward it to everyone I knew with a picture of a "leukemic infant", claiming that AOL or whoever would donate so-and-so many cents to the kid's treatment for every ten persons the e-mail was forwarded to... Very well, so I am callous. Because I can't really see any *legal* way ANY e-mail provider can track that kind of e-mail. *Grmf* <<>>

Quite right, it's just an e-mail hoax that's been passed around the internet for years. There's quite a few "e-mail tracing" chain letters like that floating around. most of them revolve around some major company organizing a contest based on how many people you send it to. This "leukemic infant" thing is just the latest version. Feel free to ignore the message.

I keep getting e-mails asking me to give out my bank account number to some widowed woman in Nigeria or some African business that's looking to move a million bucks out of their war torn homeland here to the US. It's such an obvious ploy I can hardly belive anyone would fall for it.

Anyway, check my name link for more info on various e-mail hoaxes...

Skippy The Klingon
Friday, March 29, 2002 03:29:10 PM
IP: 209.245.243.68

Happy Good Friday everyone. Since my family doesnt eat red meat on Good Friday we are going to have sushi.

I am dreading 5.pm though cause I have to call the court house to see ifI have to go in for jury duty. Keep your fingers crossed that I don't.

Time travel>>>Oy this is a tricky subject. I know of three variations
1.Fixed futures. I guess like Timedancer…another example is Sailor Moon. Despite Chibusa traveling back in time she does not prevent Nemesis from attacking her home in the future.

2.Slight changes…Back to the future. George Mcfly got hit by Lorraine’s father’s car. They married. Lorraine let her body go. George is a weakling. The eldest son has a crappy job, daughter chases boys. Marty is a cool kid. Marty goes back in time and is hit by his grandfather’s car instead. He lectures Lorraine about the evils of smoking and drinking while setting it up for George to win her heart. George punches the bully and stands up for himself at the dance. Marty returns home. His parents are an attractive cool couple, His brother has a good job and boys chase his sister.

3.Alternative universes. In dbz Trunks travels back in time to give Goku medicine for his heart. Already there is a new universe. One where Goku does not die. In Trunks’s future
Goku is dead. There ia also a universe where Trunks slays Cell. Because of the different outcomes there are different universes.

Now for the point? There is a variety to time travel. Some is fixed some are different. If you don’t like one type of time travel story then go in to the fanfic archive. I’m sure there are several different types.

Gunjack<<>> I think the heads at CN are just jealous that Speedy gets more play than them.

Lain<<<awww DARN! and here i was looking SOOO forward to hogtying and beating sj with rusty nails on a stick>>>Hey I wanna Hogtie SJ too but what I do aft wards will be different…it will involve whip cream.

Spacebabie
Orlando, Florida
Friday, March 29, 2002 11:44:07 AM
IP: 67.24.16.168

Okay, this timne travel disussion could just go on an on and on...

But as i see it, the question to be answered is: In the gargoyls univrse, is the future immutable? The past is I know that. But the future is a different matter. I don't think it counts as 'history' because it hasn't happened yet.

Personally, I'm against the idea of an immutable future. Yes, we don't know exactly why Broadway and Angela wil eventually run off to Avalon, but the point still remains that if the future is immutable, then this ruins all dramatic tension in ALL the gargoyles stories between now and whenever it is they go. Not to mention the fact that from a storytelling standpoint, it makes things vry restrictive.

My plea to the TGS staff is to keep your options open. Its not going against what's been established for it to be possible to change the future. In fact, the question becomes(for Brooklyn, at least), do they want to change it? As futures go, the one Brooklyn visisted could have been a lot worse, and he has no way of knowng what changes might prevent that future from happening.
cyberlaw
London, UK
Friday, March 29, 2002 11:09:49 AM
IP: 205.188.193.177

Stephen Sobotka>I thik you're right. At the moment ,I read primary the storys of "The Barracuda". I hope ,he continiues soon....

Greg Bishanski>Whatever you say ,my opinion about the Future-clan is allready the worst. These are bad excuses for gargoyles. They are as much real gargoyles as the monsters of the muppets show are real monsters. This so-called "clan" is a bunch of softies ,loosers and arrogant guys (Some of them think about Brooklyn as a barbarian ,only because he wears a loincloth...). I would really like it ,to wipe this idiots from the face of earth itself.....

Leo>Gargman is a very difficult language ,not for beginners. You've said nonsense ,here the correct spelling: "Sie haben eine sehr gute Webseite." The difference between German and English Gargoyles are very interesting. In Germany ,the Hunter is called "Nimrod". According to an old German myth ,Nimrod was a hunter ,whose face was disfigured by the talons of a cruel beast. But later he learns ,that this beast was not really a beast.
Some Name are different too ,in Garman. Some are directly tranlated ("Griff"="Greif", "Jackal"="Schakal") ,aome others are completly others ("The Hunter"="Nimrod" ,"Brentwood"="Passadina", "Banshee"="Klagende Fee", "The Achmage"="Der Hexenmeister"). Oh ,and in the German version ,Hudson dosn't have a scottish accent.

If you're really good in Garmen ,you can read this:
"Der Anfang einer jeden Katastrophe ist eine beschissene Vermutung!"
"Diese Kreaturen waren abstossend und haesslich, des Lebens nicht wert. Welch ein Glueck, dass wir ihren gesamten Clan vernichtet haben!"(Die Stadt aus Stein ,Teil4)
"Vor 1000 Jahren regierten Aberglaube und Schwert die Welt. Die Zeiten waren finster,und voller Schrecken und Furcht. Es war das Zeitalter der Gargoyles. Am Tage aus Stein, die Ritter der Nacht ,wurden wir verraten von den Menschen ,die wir beschuetzen wollten. Ein Zauber liess uns versteinern, fuer 1000 Jahre. Doch heute, hier in Manhattan, ist die Zauber gebrochen ,und wir sind zu neuem Leben erwacht! Wir sind die Ritter der Nacht! Wir sind die Gargoyles!" (Intro)
Tribun - [joachim_henkel@gmx.net]
Luebeck, SH, Germany
Friday, March 29, 2002 09:19:24 AM
IP: 62.214.32.58

*Warpmind stomps in, looking slightly annoyed.*
Just received another e-mail calling me callous and heartless if I didn't forward it to everyone I knew with a picture of a "leukemic infant", claiming that AOL or whoever would donate so-and-so many cents to the kid's treatment for every ten persons the e-mail was forwarded to... Very well, so I am callous. Because I can't really see any *legal* way ANY e-mail provider can track that kind of e-mail. *Grmf*

Valentine: I see international economy as a zero-sum game. Sure, for instance Norway and the US are among the definitely richest nations in the world (taking the population into the equation), but I sincerely don't think a nation should be allowed to call itself rich just because it has money stashed away in governmental bank accounts. Now, if those countries had, say, food supplies and such survival necessities on storage instead, THEN we might talk about rich countries. Just look at what happened to Spain, huh? As for me being a bigot, I think not. I said that about "Geographically Challenged" mostly as a joke, pointing out the sheer sillyness about exaggerated PCing, like Christine's "Dawn of the Living Impaired". ;) (Note the word "mostly" - I see myself as geographically challenged; I figure there's something fundamentally wrong with Norway. There are other countries I'd figure to be almost as bad, say, like certain Islamic countries, where there is something fundamentalistically wrong with the government...)

Revel: Actually, "Geographically Deprived" would probably only extend to those forced to live in exile... ;p

Christine: Oh, yeah, new Sabledrake soon coming up... You're printing those spells then, aren't you? *Sigh* ;)

Todd: That time traveler you're writing about, he isn't incidentally wielding a chainsaw and a sawed-off, is he? };)

Well, that concludes today's post, I guess. So long.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@hotmail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Friday, March 29, 2002 09:12:42 AM
IP: 193.217.142.62

Re time travel: In my own writing, I go for the "history is immutable" school of thought, same as "Gargoyles", myself (although I developed the notion on my own before "Gargoyles" ever came out); I'm currently at work on a time travel fantasy which uses just that notion, including the element that the time travelling protagonist who winds up in the past ends up discovering that he actually "was there" all along, in the sense that he's the original for an actual "semi-historical" figure (though I won't say whom, for now). The fact that I came up with that story before "Gargoyles" ever came out, let alone before the introduction of the Phoenix Gate in it, probably helped me understand the time loops in the series a lot better.

Although I also had a really dark little creativity demon once, as follows: a time traveller successfully changes history, but almost immediately afterwards, letting out a scream of agony, is transformed into a sort of void shaped like himself, which then starts to suck everything into it, growing larger as it does so, and extending backwards through time - until it finally sucks the Big Bang into it, so that the universe ceases not only to exist, but to have ever existed, as a consequence of his changing the past.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, March 29, 2002 06:47:59 AM
IP: 63.183.39.217

Time Travel > one thing I found interesting about the episode "Vows" was the exchange between Goliath and Xanatos, in which Xanatos flippantly remarks that Goliath couldn't leave him in the past because he didn't, time travel being funny that way. Now, Xanatos had no proof that Goliath didn't leave him. He was assuming, in the quintessential David Xanatos arrogance, that if he were left in the 10th century, he'd make such a mark on history that it would resonate down through the ages (and Goliath assumed the same thing). But for all either of them knew, Goliath could have left him there and Xanatos could have gotten hurt or sick and died the very next day. He had no proof, at the time he left the present, that he would return to the present. All of his information came from the letters he'd written to himself and had delivered a thousand years later by the Illuminati. Heck, Goliath could have snapped his neck then and there and no one would have been the wiser. The only people who would have known about Xanatos' death would have been the inhabitants of Castle Wyvern, and odds are that David and Fox and Petros didn't even give them their real names (never mind the whole problem with the language; an entirely different kettle of fish <g>). If Xanatos had died in the past, before he had the chance to do anything that would leave a mark on history, then in the future he just simply wouldn't have returned. Goliath could have come back without him and told Owen, "sorry, he didn't make it." And as far as the present was concerned, it would have been as if Xanatos just mysteriously disappeared. Of course, Owen wouldn't have taken it well ...

I like time travel. It's fun to play with. A pain in the tail in gaming sometimes, as I'm sure I will eventually rediscover with my Emerin campaign (that scroll Arien uses was written by a mage who wanted to go back to try and avert what he saw as a disaster, but obviously he failed). Easier to handle in fiction, but still, delicate.

In other news -- my zombie story got specific mention in another good review, clickie-clickie!

Sabledrake > just a reminder, the May "action" issue is coming up. The deadline for stories, game articles, reviews, and art is 5/3/02.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:44:19 PM
IP: 67.226.12.176

Peter - <<With your second scenario knowledge or intent to change the past has nothing to do with creating a paradox>> Actually, yes it does. If you go back in time to deliberately change a past event, say you want to save Martin Luther King from being assassinated, and you save him, then he didn't die and your future self will not have a reason to go back in time to save MLK, but if you don't go back in time you don't save him, he dies... paradox time loop.

Course that could happen with Margot and Brenden, They go back in time and unintentionally keep themselves from being born... they are not born so they do not go back in time to prevent themselves from being born, so they exist to go back in time, and keep themselves from being born... rinse and repeat.

However, the changes they instigate might not affect their being born one way or the other. What if their ancestors came from France, and nothing that happens with their interference in Scotland changes events in France significantly enough to prevent their being born, or the world from being much the same as it would be with or without the Gargoyles of Scotland living or dying for a few generations more than in the Gargoyles universe.

As long as they are in either time line born and are at the right place and time to drop into the past, they would be paradox free.

Or at least paradox as we usually think of it in relation to time travel. In that you cannot change events of the past, because by changing them you will not be lead to the point where you decided to go back in time to change them... time loop.

Immutable past is no even proven in the Gargoyles universe. That Griff disappeared from 194? was a given, but he could have been hit by the car, shot down, grabbed by Goliath, and been equally taken out of the timeline by death or other events, and everthing in the "present" would have fallen out the same regardless.

The trick with time is realizing everything that has happened, has happened, but that does not necessarily mean that something new may not happen and the new events superimpose themselves on the previous.

Time loops, but the loop becomes a fixture that comes out either in one alternating time stream, or splits into separate threads/streams.

Of course, this all depends on the theory that one can displace persons/things from a moment in time and place them into a previous moment in the timestream.

I think if you can manage true time travel, just about anything could be possible.

Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:18:05 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

*walks in in art/car working clothes*

Put over 3000 miles on the ol "War Wagon" over spring break, time for some major fixin up. Then... A gun rack, because it's Texas, it's like custom license plates.

Welcome all you new people, surrender your sanity to the new jar since someone let the last one fall off the shelf. As for the TGS questions, there are others more qualified to answer them, but if you think TGS is depressing go to the fan fic archive and check out the Amy Cyraway Universe and ask if TGS is depressing. I suggest surrending sanity first since you will have no need of it after such reading.

Taleweaver is the man, all questions should be diverted to him. (free advertising for you there ;) )

Lain- I can tie them up if you have the rope.

Warpy- either that or "geographically deprived", the only thing I really learned in advertising is that you have to make the person feel bad so that they think they need your crappy product. Dilbert said it best, "A good salesman can make you feel liek you need to buy road kill for a hat."

Time space theory gives me multi-dimensional headaches, don't get me started.

Lexy- Kowabunga?! God, you're making me feel old. I remember running around the house screaming that and "Yo Joe!"

"Who's scruffy looking?!"
-Han Solo, ESB-

Later
Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
denton, tx
Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:17:19 PM
IP: 129.120.233.181

leo <>

awww DARN! and here i was looking SOOO forward to hogtying and beating sj with rusty nails on a stick for his latest offensive comment and yabbering on about how much i want to take all the israelis and palestinians heads and clunk them together for awhile, trying to get some sense into them...
*sigh*

nighties
love you,
lain
the Great White North
Thursday, March 28, 2002 10:53:36 PM
IP: 64.228.194.121

TRIBUN - Actually, the reason why my stories are no longer on the archive is due to personal reasons (don't ask). And in truth, i don't think I'll be reposting them any time soon. Truth be told, I only got small reactions to them the first time around - which was good - but not a lot of readers sent me feedback afterwards.

In all honesty, you really don't want to read my stuff. There's more authors out there in the fandom that are much better, deserve the attention more than me. Though I do appreciate the interest... I'm just sorry i can't do more.

Maintain and Check Six.

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr.
Tampa, FL, USA
Thursday, March 28, 2002 10:19:07 PM
IP: 65.35.129.166

On the Manhattan Clan of the future... Manhattan clan of the future is much bigger than the current cast, with all new people in a more peacful environment you haven't really had time to see or explore yet. Trust me, I know what's coming, and it's great stuff.

As for Broadway and Angela going to Avalon... to make a "Babylon 5" analogy... I agree with the JMS explanation. "You may know that G'Kar and Londo strangle each other to death, but you don't know the WHY behind it till later.

To make a couple of examples (and I'm not saying this is what happens, just an example) "Okay ,you know Broadway isn't going to die. What you don't know is that before he goes to Avalon, he is going to go into a fit of rage and kills Dracon, and that's what drives him there, because he's running."

Another: "You know Angela is going to live. What you don't know is, SHE'S the reason Goliath dies, and her running to Avalon is.." Or "You know Angela is going to live, what you don't know is the fun orgies her mother talks her into that seperate her from the clan..."

"Only the PAST is immutable "

Uh, dude... In 2168, the events of 1998 ARE the past, and thus, immutable. Just because WE see the event of 1998 in a present tense mode doesn't make them any less the past in 2168.
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, March 28, 2002 10:13:33 PM
IP: 216.179.6.156

Well this is disheartening news. Why would Angela and Broadway leave the clan? Gargoyles stay together that is their nature. If anything more Gargoyles would leave Avalon for the outside world than stay there. I liked the idea of Brooklyn getting a mate and two kids but at the cost of losing Broadway and Angela? Is Timedancer really that depressing because I don't like really depressing stories one bit.

Its going to be along time before I can read all the episodes stored hear so any help will be appreciated in understanding what you're talking about. I don't mind spoilers at all.
Jonathan - [Fiore17@flash.net]
Thursday, March 28, 2002 09:55:15 PM
IP: 64.48.234.108

Tribun> Sie haben ein(e?) "supertoll" webseit(sp?)!
(It's been 3 years since I took my required 1 year of German so the rest of this will be in English)

It is interesting to see the little differences between the English and German versions of the show. Character names or example:
"Brentwood" is called "Pasadina"(a feminine sounding name?) in the german version.

A few episode titles were not direct translations from the English:

English Title: "Future Tense"
German Title: "Traum oder Wirklichkeit?" (Dreams or Realities.?)

Patrick Toman:<"This is why time travel gives me nosebleeds." - Geordi LaForge, "Star Trek: The Next Generation"> I like this one better:

"I hate temporal mechanics." (Both) Miles O'Brian(s), "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine"
Leo
Thursday, March 28, 2002 08:28:36 PM
IP: 172.130.68.212

I think in order to truly start accepting time travel as a possibility, one has to start looking at "free will" as a relative thing. There's a certain comfort to be found in the thought that time itself is immutable, as it means one can travel back and observe without fear of screwing things up. The Marty McFly scenario, for example, could not happen in a universe where time is immutable. Marty, of course, may find that unfair, and argue that his free will has been violated... but at the same time it pays to consider that any actions done for the purposes of changing the past in a universe where time is not immutable are in and of themselves an infringement on the free will of others. It's simple entropy to realize there is really no such thing as changing ONE thing, for that one thing will eventually affect other things. And when one is meddling with the fundamental elements of the universe, it's often hard to predict the ultimate consequences of that kind of domino effect.

I think it's also worth noting that parallel universes are entirely different animal than parallel timelines. If infinite parallel universes exist, they do so independently of each other, and if what happens in one also happens in another, that is cosmic coincidence and nothing more. And given an infinite set of parallel universes, it would be expected to an infinite subset consisting of many that are so nearly identical as to be virtually indistinguishable save for some minor difference here or tere. But even so, they are NOT examples of parallel timelines, for the existence of time itself is a characteristic of a universe. To find parallel timelines, one must first find a universe where the inherent laws of time permit them to exist. They do not exist in the "Gargoyles" universe, but they do in the universe Marty McFly inhabits, as well as the universe where Captain Kirk's reading glasses circle the centuries, perpertually trapped in and endless loop.

And it's the loops like that one (and the Archmage) that can REALLY make your head hurt. ;)

"This is why time travel gives me nosebleeds." - Geordi LaForge, "Star Trek: The Next Generation"
Patrick Toman
Thursday, March 28, 2002 06:06:25 PM
IP: 66.72.192.218

An immutable future can also screw any possible tension in stories.

Example: Broadway and Angela are going to evetually run off to Avalon. Therefore and stories featuring them between now and whenever this happens become devoid of tension because we know nothing serious can happen to them, since they will eventually be going to Avalon together.

So whenever we know even a little about the future of any characters in a universe with an immutable future, it ruins any tension in whatever stories are going to happen between now and whenever those things happen. We know the characters are going to survive/come out unscathed so dangerous situations lose any sense of danger and end up feeling a little dull.
c yberklaw
London, UK
Thursday, March 28, 2002 05:57:44 PM
IP: 152.163.207.68

hi to all
Anonymous
Thursday, March 28, 2002 05:29:54 PM
IP: 205.188.199.178

My two cents on this time travel discussion.

Mooncat> In the first situation you described you are not changing the past. What you are doing is similar to how Goliath brought Griff to 1995. For any of the Gargoyles that were not constantly observed from dawn until they were smashed, all that is known for sure is that a stone-like substance that looked like them was destroyed. Thus you alter nothing in the past, as your actions were always part of the events.
With your second scenario knowledge or intent to change the past has nothing to do with creating a paradox. If the time stream is changeable their very presence in the past makes it extremely unlikely that they will even be born, due to things as seemingly small as changing the air currents and gravitational field of the earth. With the types of changes you describe the chances of them being born only grow smaller.

Personally, I feel that an immutable time stream is only logical way that time travel can occur, real world included.
Peter - [hybridone@ignmail.com]
Williams Lake, BC, Canada
Thursday, March 28, 2002 05:00:12 PM
IP: 64.114.74.109

Here is my view of time travel in the Gargoyle's universe.

You can deliberately alter things in the past. BUT you have to cover your tracks so it will still look like the original events happened even if they didn't really happen.

Confusing? Not really. Say you want to go back in time to save the shattered gargoyles of Wyvern clan. Can do. But you have to still make it seem that the gargoyles were shattered, to avoid paradox. So you jump time, replace the just turned gargs with statues, and take your garg prisoners/rescuees off with you.

So you could change things that you can cover up.

Otherwise, to change the past on a large scale, it would have to be changed inadvertantly. The change not dependent on the knowledge or intention based knowledge of the original events. So, if an unwitting person was thrown back in time and did something that changed the past without the intent or knowledge that he/she was changing the past, events would shift because there would be no paradox.

Example, Brenden and Margot get hurled back in time and meets the gargoyles of the past. They know nothing of the gargoyles personally, but by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, cause the Vikings to win their initial attack on Castle Wyvern. The princess is captured, the Magus is slain and the captain of the guard and the gargoyles who survive mount a rescue and save Katherine... In this scenario, a majority of gargoyles survive rather than are shattered, and the Captain of the Guard and Demona never got to the point of plotting the fall of Wyvern. What happens next could be totally different than the events of the series. Everyone's fate could go in different directions. Maybe Katherine learns her lesson, or maybe she keeps her prejudices, but the pivotal event of betraying the castle to the Vikings does not occur, so many things get changed.

Since Brenden and Margot's pressence in the past and their actions did not depend on any of the events they've just changed, there is no paradox, and no one within that time stream is aware that the past has changed.

Just my thoughts on meddling with time...
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Thursday, March 28, 2002 04:27:07 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Stephen R. Sobotka jr.>I can't find your Name or the DeGuy Saga in the Fanfic-Archive. It seems to be lost. Also ,I can't find it anywhere in the web. Is it possible for you ,to put it in the Fanfic-archive again? From what I heard ,your storys are ....interesting.
Tribun - [joachim_henkel@gmx.net]
Luebeck, SH, Germany
Thursday, March 28, 2002 04:12:36 PM
IP: 62.214.32.214

Greetings all...

TIME TRAVEL - Ugh, I tried working with it in some of my own fanfics. One of my recurring characters was a time traveler simply known as "the Stranger". He appeared at a few key points along my "DeGuy Saga" to help the Gargoyles cast out (when Elisa was pregnant with Goliath's child, turning Demona away from revenge, etc.), and later he was to feature huge in the DeGuy Saga ending series "Generations Quest" (which I never finished).

I personally think it's not a bad thing to have time be immutable, but then again it's a challeging headache to work within that sort of boundary. I worked on "Return To Paradise", the Season 3 TGS ender, and even with what had happened before in previous TGS series that dictacted what was to come in the Manhattan of the future, I still found the means to make it exciting and entertaining.

Time Travel, it's a Pain, but if you can pull it off, you are a writer par-excellance.

That's all from me...going to work with a new USB printer and some more stuff on my new system.

Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616@yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Thursday, March 28, 2002 03:44:23 PM
IP: 65.35.129.166

I find it refreshing to see more TGS related comments. I've been growing tired of reaing these trivial debates over "true" morality, "real" Christians, cults, -

-speaking of cults, I received some unsolicited mail from a group that calles themselves "The Sanctuary of The Secret Life of The Earth." Their slogan: "Afflame with God, hidden from man, sought by all, known by few." "Attuning to the Current of Tav" - An invitation to the 9th Merkabah retreat with Joseph Lee. [Leo does internet search of words "Tav" + "Merkabah" + "Joseph Lee"] [Leo screams "F#@KING BEATNICK HIPPIE EARTHCHILDREN OF BOB JONES!!!!"] [Leo wonders which internet store sold them his address so as not to purchase from that site again.]

- um, what was I going to talk about now?

Leo
Thursday, March 28, 2002 03:05:58 PM
IP: 172.175.98.195

Hey everyone, I'm about to head out for a little field training so I won't be back until the 4th of April so I'll see you then.

Spacebabie- Thanks for the Congrats and you're right Ian should have won several times over.

Later.
Jaden - [jaden1444@aol.com]
Thursday, March 28, 2002 03:02:37 PM
IP: 172.194.225.50

Well, I'm not completly innocent in time-travel....

Well, in one of my storys, (at gargoyles-fans.de) Elisa and Goliath accidently travel into the future of 2035 (And this will be really the only time). But I have prevented to say ,what this future exactly is. The only people ,which they meet where Xanatos (a VERY old Xanatos),Angela and the older versions of themselves. And I wrote about some not rather descibed hatchings. After they where gone back to thier present ,the old Elisa must say ,that not everythig happend like last time.
Later, the son of Elisa and Goliath, Cirion, traveled into the past in disguise als the "time lord" to let the things happen ,as told to him by his parents. Then, he will tell them ,that the future is not alraedy made. Minor details can change, but also, if a time-traveler will change the future or the past ,it is possible. (Only he Phoenix Gate doesn't work. It's not built for this case) Also, it is possible ,that big events or decisions can went other ways.
This happend in my first story. The Archmage went to the future, there his future self descibed him the exact plan for the victory over the clan, and he does exactly as told. But this time, something goes other ways, and the Achmage was defeated this time.

Ok, enough of me. The only thing, I truly know is my hate about Timedancer. The Manhattan-clan of the future is a cruel joke......
Tribun - [joachim_henkel@gmx.net]
Luebeck, SH, Germany
Thursday, March 28, 2002 02:31:35 PM
IP: 62.214.32.214

Howdy all,

Finally an interesting topic to delurk for: time-travel.

Tribun> Nice to hear from you. Don't like timedancer? Well, your entitled to your opinion. You aren't the first to have a problem with the immutable future. I view the malleability of time as a trade-off in sci-fi writing. When time is alterable, you can have change. One deficiencies I've seen in stories like that is the George Bailey syndrome. That because one person is missing, the whole world goes to hell in a handbasket. (For reference see the Goliath Chronicles: "For it May Come True") Another problem is "The Cheat". That's where even though the timeline has been altered some things are drawn to some sort of natural state: a romantic couple will still be drawn together, a hero will find the never to be heroic, etc. The thing most stories with alterable timelines ignore is that people nad the actions have many effects both good and bad, how we interprete them and act on them play a part in how they turn out.

Immutable time offers its own challenges. Since history corrects itself, the pressure is off to play mechanic trying to fix time and make history follow a 'proper course'. I think it gives time traveller more freedom to explore the time that they are in.

I don't believe you can eat your cake and have it too. If the past is fixed, then the future should be fixed. In time travel, the present is just a matter of perspective. However, I do believe that the history we know is not complete. In stories, things may be fatalistic, but the whole story is not revealed.

As far as TGS: Timedancer, here's how I saw writing some of the stories. The future was only vaguely hinted. Partly to keep with Greg's Master plan as much as possible and partly to keep things focused on present. Each writer of the future tense had to keep what was written before in mind. If Demona has a boyfriend in "Requiem" you have to incorporate a later story covering the same time period. But if the details aren't spelled out so you can mix things up a bit. The courtship can be quick and passionate or drawn out with both trying to sort out their feelings for each other. Angela and Broadway may leave for Avalon, but how and why are a mystery to me. The whole story isn't known. That's why I'm curious about this season of Timedancer. I'd like to see how things turn out.

Well, that's my two cents in the coffer. I'm still pondering why time-travel gives people so many headaches. Linear thinking is easy, but it's not the only mode of thought out there in the ether.
Taleweaver - [loremaster27@hotmail.com]
Thursday, March 28, 2002 01:12:11 PM
IP: 134.71.41.95

DPH>< Obviously, you missed seeing "Vows", "MIA", and "Future Tense" from the original series. History is IMMUTABLE in the Gargoyles universe as stated by Greg Weisman. IMMUTABLE means can not be changed. That's the fundamental law of Time Travel in the Gargoyles universe. > Sorry, but I think the matter is open to interpretation. The way I see it, according to 'Vows' and 'M.I.A', only the PAST is immutable (As I understand it, the future in 'Future Tense' is actually a Puck-created illusion, so surely it doesn't count? Can't be sure since I haven't seen it yet). I much rather prefer the idea that the future is open to change. The idea that everything to come is already set in stone isn't very appealing, since it essentially removes free will.

But of course, my interpretation does open up problems. When someone travels back in time suely their 'present' beomes the future, and is therefore open to change? Or does it remain immutable somehow because the traveller knows about it? Or is it something else entirely? No matter what way you look at it, time travel always throws up headache-inducing problems.

But look at it this way. It could be argued that TGS has already introduced the idea of many different futures into the gargoyles universe. Back in the first season, there was this episode called 'Two', in which someone's medling (I think it was Puck) caused a Demona from an alternate universe to enter the garoyles' world.

The idea of parallel universes means parallel timelines. At some point in the past, the history of the parallel universe was different, meaning that at that time, the future changed from the course it was on. If, in the gargoyles universe, the future is immutable, there wouldn't be any parallel timelines where things went differently.

But if the future can be changed, why does Brooklyn not share what he knows about the future? Either he hasn't realised that the future can be changed, or he wants to make sure the history proceeds the way its supposed to in order to lead to the future he visited, and not to a future that could be much worse.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Hope they make some sort of sense...
Cyberklaw
London, UK
Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:59:18 AM
IP: 205.188.195.43

Spacebabie><<They take out Speedy but leave in Pepe? Something aint right.>> Despite what all the PC radicals say, I think everyone is still pretty comfertable with hating the French.

Warpmind><<It's supposed to breed winners, but so far, losers seem to be in majority...)>> ...Which is why the capitalist countries are the richest in the world? Or do you believe that economics is a zero-sum game? <<That the term "foreigner" will be replaced by "geographically challenged"?>> Bigot. The term "-Challenged" implies that there's something wrong with the country they came from origionally.

Gside><<When did that stop me?>> Ever heard that quote to the effect that if you don't have anything nice to say, you shouldn't say anything?
Gunjack "Shudderbug" Valentine
Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:06:18 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Urk I felt like crap yeterday. I dealt with dizzy spells, nausea and vomiting. A stomache virus is going around so that might be it.

I got stuck in a downpoor Tuesday walking from class to wear the car was.

A moment of silence for both "Uncle Milty" and Dudley Moore.

Some small replies....Dam'n I miss Josh.

Gside<<<Unles you have sex changed mad scientists (specializing in robotics) at your beck and call.>>>Crap you figured out my secret..

SJ<<<Death estimates as high as 5,000 in Afghan quake >>> I knew someone would report about this. Earthquakes are considerd acts of God right?…They take out Speedy but leave in Pepe? Something aint right.

Ed<<<Crumbs, Todd>>> I just had visions of Penfold for a second there.

Spacebabie
Orlando, Florida
Thursday, March 28, 2002 10:43:46 AM
IP: 67.24.92.32

DPH>So, zhis idiotic future of the clan is the only future, that will happen. Oh great.....one more reason to hate Timedancer.
The idea of "The Barracuda" with different universes and timelines was better. His own continuation of TGS is something very interesting......
Tribun - [joachim_henkel@gmx.net]
Luebeck, SH, Germany
Thursday, March 28, 2002 08:39:58 AM
IP: 62.214.32.214

*Warpmind strolls in, taking a few potshots at DC, using an airgun and 4.5mm HESH ammo...*
Grrr... Cut power when I'm about to hit "Submit"... *Sneer*

silvadel: Au contraire, m'lady. The Reality Stabilizers at IOU are in place to permit students and faculty to get out of line, without too significant effects on the space/time continuum. ;)

Gside: That comment on the vasectomy... That's Ghastly. ;) And I wouldn't be so nosy about Norse uses for firewood and sheep, if I were you. };)

Mooncat: Y'know, time travel'd be fun, but if you went back to change something, odds are you'd change EVERYthing, thus likely robbing you of the chance to go back in time from the future, bringing History back on its original track, which would allow you the trip back and change... uh... am I making sense? ;) Oh, and where's that feedback, mmm? *Purrs softly* Y'know I'm a patient fellow, but an elastic band can only be stretched a certain distance... };) As for the philosophies regarding selfless/selfish societies... Well, if you look at it: Capitalism is, pretty much, a Selfish system. It doesn't work all that well. Communism is a genuinely Selfless system. We all know how well THAT worked, eh? While I reckon Communism is an ideal theory, the Human Element is, was, and will always be the factor that f***s up the equation. (This also applies to Capitalism, although I'm strongly disinclined to calling it ideal... It's supposed to breed winners, but so far, losers seem to be in majority...)

Ch'Tah: ChronoTrigger. Excellent choice! Just make sure you don't have Frog in the party when you hook up with the Magus after the Ocean Palace, eh? ;)

Skippy: I reckon the Heaven's Gate Cult was the exception to confirm the rule, no? (And for that matter - they were all in the same line of work: that could be interpreted to mean that the nutcase at the top just knew which buttons to push in a VERY limited segment of the society at large, hm?)

Patrick: Hard to live down a B-movie reputation? But... Didn't at least two out of the three Evil Dead movies hook Oscars? I hardly doubt they rate above B-movies, y'know. ;)

DPH: Homemade pizza, eh? A not-so-subtle suggestion: Try the Jarlsberg instead of the Mozarella, and skip the Cheddar. ;)

SJ: Speedy Gonzales is banned? What's next? That the term "foreigner" will be replaced by "geographically challenged"? Jeez, Brad Siegel needs two things, methinks: 1) a brain, and 2) a spine and/or liver and/or nuts, depending on where you place courage. ;p

Well, that about concludes my post. Seeyalater, gang.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@hotmail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Thursday, March 28, 2002 07:25:22 AM
IP: 193.216.44.75

Tribun - Obviously, you missed seeing "Vows", "MIA", and "Future Tense" from the original series. History is IMMUTABLE in the Gargoyles universe as stated by Greg Weisman. IMMUTABLE means can not be changed. That's the fundamental law of Time Travel in the Gargoyles universe.

Leo - TBS must be sanity-challenged at times.

SJ - Why do I get the feeling you surf the 'net trying to find things to complain about? Of course, I'm not saying that I disagree with what you are complaining about.

I have no heard no comments about my choices of toppings for a pizza. I figured the remark about putting carrots ont he pizza would have drop some stares.

I got a coach and a love seat moved into my house today. Out went two coaches (one of which really needs to be re-apolholstred (Spelling?) and a chair that also needs to be . . fixed in the same manner as the aformentioned coach. That means I have a house to clean up. Joy.
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, March 28, 2002 12:38:51 AM
IP: 204.94.193.20

Gunjack> <>: When did that stop me?
<<But since you asked>>: Actually I meant something more along the lines of replies and such.

Tribun> <>: It's not too bad, except for your commas (many extraneous and all on the wrong side of the space).

And I'll get the mp3 later. Much hapening now.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscatway, NJ
Thursday, March 28, 2002 12:26:55 AM
IP: 198.151.130.133

SJ:<"more kneejerk liberal politically correct BULLSHIT">

another example (Well not quite): Over a month after Sept. 11, TBS aired "Back to the Future". During the chase scene at the mall, all footage showing the machine guns, Dr Emmet Brown being shot(a MAJOR plot point!), The "Libian terrorist" holding the bazooka, was cut. Even the sound of the guns firing was overdubbed. [Im not going to explain how strange the end result was]
Anyway,

In my opinion Brad Siegel, Ted Turner, etc.., these people are all social retards. Ted Turner is said to have told a polish joke while visiting Poland.

Go figure.

Leo
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:50:40 PM
IP: 172.145.50.55

Hey, remember a few months ago when I said that Cartoon Network would begin to suffer under the regime of Brad Siegel, one of the most incompetent men in the Time Warner family (which CN, unfortunately, is a part of)?

Yeah, well, I was right.

There are other examples, but here's the most recent.

It is, pure and simple, more kneejerk liberal politically correct BULLSHIT, and it creates in me a deep anger.

Click on the name link to see why now, Speedy Gonzalez is BANNED in America.
Sevarius Jr. - [sevariusjr@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 09:39:51 PM
IP: 207.172.11.147

A moment of silence for both Milton Burle and Dudley Moore.

Spike
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 09:22:26 PM
IP: 66.137.130.241

Wow..I said Dude a LOT in that last post...hehe..sorry ppl Weird last couple of days at work 0_o Or is that no exucse? HEY I'M AN 80's CHILD!! KOWABUNGA!!
Lexy
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 09:10:19 PM
IP: 66.31.222.137

Jonathan Schmidt- Hey Dude. Welcome to the Garg fandom! :) Really Glad to have you! I'll try to answer your Q's even though I am not qualified ^-^v..

1. Are Angela and Broadway going to stay together?

As far as the creator is concerned. Yes. They are going to have three children together, and one of them (Sampson) is going to become clan leader at one point or another. Why don't you check out Ask Greg Dude.( A place where you can ask the creator whatever ya like!) That would give you all your answers and then some, and if that isn't enough you can ask your own! :D But make sure to check the ARCHIVES for specific topics. IE: Look under Broadway, or the Trio..ect. So that you don't ask a Q Greg has already answered.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.html
Here is a link that will take you to the answered Q's archive. Just scroll through and find what you are most interested in. I won't kid ya though, there's a LOT of answers and questions to sift through -_-; But all very interesting! ^_^

2. I heard you here talking about a season four and five. Do you have an ending planned for Gargoyles?

EEKs..I don't read TGS. Or haven't for a loooong time. Anyone else want to feild this one? I have a feeling, though, that their answer will be that they would prefer to keep writing as long as they can keep up a writing and artist staff.

3. Do you take ideas for future stories from readers? listening.

The TGS staff is made up of fans just like you. And they are ALWAYS looking for help. If you want to put in ideas why don't you inquire about joining the staff:) I'm on it right now for art (though I've only done ONE pic) But again, I guess I can't totally answer your Q.

Again. Welcome! :D
Lexy
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 09:06:36 PM
IP: 66.31.222.137

ED - Don't worry, we're still doing Season Four Breakdowns for "Gargoyles" and "Pendragon" (I've even done some advance writing on the first few episodes for Season Four of "Pendragon", whose outlines have been finalized). What I meant in my Season Five remark was that when we reach Season Five for TGS in general, we're hoping to balance RL and TGS time better so that TGS doesn't suffer as much (and hopefully without having RL doing the suffering).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 06:10:02 PM
IP: 168.191.109.105

*pops head around the door*

Todd: Timedancer season 5? Crumbs, Todd, I like Timedancer and all but couldn't we see Gargoyles and Pendragon reach season 4 first?
Ed - [ed@steelclaw.org]
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 03:17:27 PM
IP: 172.181.217.244

Hey all! We're alive, but busy as H311!

HOPEFULLY, we will be able to really post one day.
Fire Storm and Lady Mystic
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 01:54:08 PM
IP: 216.254.103.139

I'm selling a Gargoyles Castle playset on ebay. It has Never played with. And bid started low. If anyone is interested click the link!
Alisa
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 12:46:00 PM
IP: 24.247.117.162

TGS rocks! The Gargoyles main series is great. The spin-offs "Dark Ages" and "Pendragon" are interesting. But I really hate "Timedancer". Why? Thinking of the future as allready written in stone, I think is idiotic. And that Angela and Broadway will simply ran away from the clan to Avalon ,only to come back after many years ,when everybody they knew was long gone ,has done it finally for me ,to throw away that spin-off.
Others will crucify me for my opinion about Timedancer ,but it is the way ,I think about this series.
But what ,if the future of Timedancer is not written in stone? What ,if the future can be changed? Maybe in this way:
Brooklyn and Sata see ,that after the things went as they knew for a period of time (maybe up to the Ende of season 3),and then ,more and more deviations appear. And someday ,Brooklyn must see the truth. The future ,he Sata and the kids visited ,was only one of many possible futures. And that this time ,history could go complete other ways.
I waited already too long for the next Gargoyles season....

(I apologize for my really worse writing ,but I can only read English good. Writing is one other problem....)
Tribun - [joachim_henkel@gmx.net]
Luebeck, SH, Germany
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 09:33:44 AM
IP: 62.214.35.3

Well, I felt that our readers needed and deserved an explanation for the long delay in releasing TGS's latest season. We're hoping that it won't happen again for future seasons, though we can't promise anything.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 08:02:35 AM
IP: 168.191.109.236

Gside - I don't post, because what's going through my head isn't publicly acceptable. But since you asked...

"Gibson cracks, and goes to see Rico. Billy comes along, trying to talk him out of it as they go. They arrive
at Rico’s and he is NOT happy to see Gibson, proceeding to get all the way in his face. The two air the bitterness of
their relationship, and Rico ends up beating Gibson down.. Billy tries to step in, and earns a few punches for
his trouble. when he hits back, he gets a gun in the face from Rico. Rico has turned deadly calm, and is
talking crazy. Before he can pull the trigger, Gibson blows him wide open with the shotgun. Rico collapse
against the table, cursing and coughing up blood. He pulls himself up and fires a round at Gibson before the
other barrel blows his head off."

,,,Why yes, I DID cap off a week of loathing and hatred with a Road Waffles Marathon. Give your ID card to the border gaurd...
Gunjack "Honey and Cucumbers" Valentine
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 02:24:43 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Gunjack> <<You know what we need? We need a new Blaster Master. Wouldn't that be S\/\/337>>: You owe us a full post of mindlessness if you're going to post a small bit of mindlessness. And it might be fun.

Ch'Tah> <<What's a Blaster Master?>>: Old NES game. sometimes sidescrolling, sometimes top down. With a rather thin plot (you follow your pet frog down a hole and discover a high tech attack vehicle and suit which you have to use to save your now kidnapped frog).
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscatway, NJ
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 12:59:09 AM
IP: 198.151.130.133

I am going to make a homemade pizza soon. Ok, I bought the pizza crust, but everything else is going to be homemade. Obviously I am going to pizza sauce on it, but here's the list of other toppings, not in any particular order: olives, onions, bell peppers, carrots, cheddar cheese, mozarella cheese, ground beef, sausage. I plan on personally chopping up the olives, slicing the onions, grating the carrots, shredding the cheese with a food processor, frying the ground beef and sausage, and chopping the bell peppers. No, the only way I would consider putting hot peppers on a pizza is if I throughly blend in it to the sauce (That's a word of caution to anyone who receives a pizza from me.)

Kaito - You're saying that one extreme view of morals being adopted will lead to the other extreme view of morals being embraced.

Patrick - <Pick me up a sports almanac on your next trip.> It's too risky. Besides, for anyone to make money at gambling someone else has to lose money.

SJ - <And the rock cried out, no hiding place.> Stupid question: who is going to go around hospitals/relief organizations trying to find any potential enemy troops.

Ravyn - <do you know?> No, but I was thinking that would be interesting trivia to know.

Damn it, the day seems slow and I know why. Imzadi is on vacation.

I've been spending some time "tinkering" with one of my programs I never completed.

Todd - I thought you were trying to become "disassociated" with TGS. Your actions set yourself back quite a bit in disassociation process.

Darkd-fx - <When the hell are Gargoyles season 4 coming on the net i really want the gargoyles seasons to continue.> Technically speaking, Gargoyles season 4 was published a couple of years ago. Gargoyles season 4 started with "The Rising" and ended with "Seeds of Change". If you are referring to Timedancer Season 4's premiere date, Spring 2002 isn't over with yet. ::whistles for GXB to enforce one of his "commandments".::

Jonathan - Obviously, you haven't read Timedancer all the way through yet.
DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 12:30:29 AM
IP: 204.94.193.12

Revel > I don't know how the voting works, but once it's open I will post a link. While I am shameless enough to beg everyone I know to vote for me, I'd prefer not to stuff the ballot boxes with multiples.

Ah, but the bad comes with the good ... two of the short stories I had out were rejected today. Drat, drat. Will try again with them other places.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 12:27:19 AM
IP: 67.226.90.74

I didn't know what image to choose so I chose Angela and Broadway because I love those two and want to see what the picture looks lik.

Anyway as a kid I used to always watch Gargoyles (never saw every episode though) but I think the plot was a bit much for me. Now that I'm eighteen I find myself getting into it all over again (I have Toon Disney and its about the only show I watch on there). Only now do I truly see what an incredible series it was (and is thanks to you) and how much I love it.

Anyway searching on the Net for good fanfiction on Gargoyles I kept seeing this site referred to and went to check it out. I've only read the first six or so episodes but all I can say is WOW! This is just like I would expect it if the orignal writers were doing it. You've stayed true to the plot and character of everyone. I especially love how you're further developing the character of Xanatos. I've always loved villains who turn good and the way he reflects on his life is so realistic. You've also shown me the true nature of Demona. I had never seen the episodes where Angela and Demona interact or see what she went through during those thousand years so I saw her as a simple villain who hated humans. Now I see clearly just where all that anger and hatred comes from and I truly pity poor Demona. Anyone who went through those experiences could well have ended up just like her. Perhaps she can get a second chance, I mean if Xanatos can change anybody can. As far as that thought goes I also like it that you have the clan and Alisa not immediately accepting his reform though I hope that changes soon, Xanatos is trying so hard *sniff*

Here's some questions, I know I should just read for myself but I've always loved spoilers.

1. Are Angela and Broadway going to stay together? I ask because there was a small comment by Goliath in one episode where he says he felt uneasy about their relationship but didn't know why. Btw I know that Angela and Broadway are going to have children together but my question still stands.

2. I heard you here talking about a season four and five. Do you have an ending planned for Gargoyles? I hope so because I hate stories without endings. I'm of course fine with endings that leave room for future stories.

3. Do you take ideas for future stories from readers? If so I have an idea that could be in a future episode. Gargoyles have always been so vulnerable during the day that it would be benefical to the survival of their race if their stone bodies weren't so easily smashed. So perhaps you could have Xanatos invent something that alters the Gargoyles DNA, causing their stone bodies to become as hard or harder than diamonds, rendering them nearly unbreakable. Being genetic this would be passed on from generation to generation. The story could include the misgivings of the clan at being tested on as well as Hudson being the one to have the final test done (he takes the injection, wears a large shield as he goes to sleep and they fire and hammer at the shield to try to break it. As a climax Goliath could trust Xanatos enough to reveal the location of the other clans so that they too could take the injection. However have you already provided a different kind of protection for the Gargoyles? I would write this in my own fanfic but it would pale so much in comparison to yours that its not worth doing. Thanks for listening.

Jonathan Schmidt - [Fiore17@flash.net]
Wylie, TX, USA
Wednesday, March 27, 2002 12:21:02 AM
IP: 64.48.234.133

Howdy, all!

I just might have passed a Circuits test this afternoon, after an entire weekend of studying. Woo hoo! ;)

DPH> Glad you liked the link! :) <<what year of NCAA tournament history had the fewest upsets?>> Hmm ... you know, I don't know ... do you know? That would be a neat little fact just to know ... I'm curious now. ;)

Christine> Sorry it's a little late, but congrats on the nomination! Hope you go all the way! :)

SJ> Wow, man, you are *darn* good at those Oscar picks ... ;)

Time Travel> Well, let's see ... you know, after honestly thinking it over, if I were to travel back in time ... I really wouldn't change anything major. Just little things, like the time I knocked over a snow globe at a friend's house and broke it ... that sort of thing. I wouldn't want to change any of the major stuff. But I would want to go back, just to talk to myself ... and someone else ... and tell both those people that everything would eventually get better. :)

Ch'tah Tyger> <<And my favourite one is also the one at the very bottom>> Woo hoo! ;) And I agree with you about your Oscar wrap-up ... I liked the tune from Monsters, Inc., but didn't quite think it was Oscar material ... glad Randy Newman won after 16 nominations, though. He deserved that, at least. I was hoping for the Enya tune from LOTR.

Oscars> I only have one thing to say ... MEL GIBSON IS SOOOOO DARN HOT!!!!!! :)

I'll be going now ... ;)
Ravyn
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 11:39:57 PM
IP: 150.135.180.226

Ah, the cold, bitter hand of the bitch goddess, Irony, rears back once more, but this time, I'm practically giddy with the blow it's struck.

***********

Death estimates as high as 5,000 in Afghan quake

Afghan officials said Tuesday that an accurate death count may be weeks away after a devastating earthquake in the mountains of northeastern Afghanistan, where early reports indicated the town of Nahrin may have been destroyed.

Afghanistan's interim leader, Hamid Karzai, said that 1,800 people died in the magnitude 6 quake, but other officials said the number could be as high as 5,000. Thousands more were reported injured, and an estimated 30,000 homes were destroyed in the remote region.

Karzai cancelled a trip to Turkey that had been scheduled for Thursday to remain inn Afghanistan an coordinate the response to the disaster.

A Pentagon spokesman said that commanders of U.S. forces stationed in Afghanistan were working with local officials on ways to help the relief effort.

Many of the buildings that were destroyed in the earthquake were built in the same way structures had been erected over the last few centuries.

Powerful aftershocks, treacherous terrain and winter weather hindered rescue parties on the slopes of the Hindu Kush mountains in Baghlan province, and kept communications to a minimum, the officials said.

The quake's epicenter, about 90 miles north of Kabul, is a seven-hour overland ride. A French aid agency has sent 2,000 blankets and 1,000 tents, but that is far below what will be needed.

A powerful earthquake struck the same region in the 1998, killing about 7,000 people.

U.S. special envoy Zalmay Khalilzad, in front of the U.S. Embassy in Kabul, said that the United States stood ready to help Afghanistan's interim government, which has been on its feet only about three months and is ill-prepared to deal with the scope of the disaster.

"We will provide assistance to the interim authority and local Afghans in dealing with this tragedy," Khalilzad said.

There were no reports that U.S. troops stationed at Bagram Air Base near Kabul and in Kandahar being injured.

******

And the rock cried out, no hiding place.

GodDAMN this brings a smile to my face.
Sevarius Jr. - [sevariusjr@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 06:43:15 PM
IP: 207.172.11.147

We're still working on getting Season Four ready for release. It's just that, this past year (by which I mean 2001 as well as the first three months of 2002), RL has been especially busy for us, and so we haven't had as much free time to devote to TGS (in terms of Breakdowns, Writing, Edits, and Art) as we'd like. We are working on getting it ready, but our schoolwork and regular work has to come first. Hopefully, during our time working on Season Five, we'll be able to achieve more of an even balance and won't be as snowed under with RL duties.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 06:23:44 PM
IP: 63.183.39.142

When the hell are Gargoyles season 4 coming on the net i really want the gargoyles seasons to continue.

Please who ever does or is over the season department please get on your horse and make it happen.

Your faithfully Garret Byrne.
DarkD-fx - [Benbyrne2002@yahoo.com]
Dublin, Ireland
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 05:10:30 PM
IP: 66.38.129.102

Kaioto - Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of a 3D Blaster Master mod based on the Halflife engine... I wasn't even aware that the Playstation BM had come out yet... o.O

Spent all last night rereading Road Waffles. Worf.
Gunjack "Eight's *****" Valentine
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 04:53:12 PM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Oscars > Eh, I gave up on caring about them a long time ago. I don't really like the Academy that much. I will admit to a bit of a cureousity, however, about how many awards The Two Towers can bag next year. ;)

Blaster Master > The Playstation second-generation Blastermaster just didn't do anything for me. It wasn't very well producted and played a little too much like a SuperNintendo game than a Playstation game.

re: Morals> I'm going to ramble here, look out! ;-)

The nature of morality is up for debate. I ascribe to something closer to the Platonic model of Objective Morality + Reality myself. Moral principles are not subjective. Each person has them and their nature is not subjective any more than your arm or leg is subjective. They exist, but are personal. The correctness of such rules or senses is, of course, another can of worms.

A society based completely on self-interest can not build itself up in a social vacuum. The infrastructure and wealth that one could used to create a Randian dystopia of draconian control was established on previous societies in which people exercised a certain degree of morals and trust to coopperate. This sort of dystopia would subjugate the bulk of people to service the self-interests of those with power. Of course, subjugation leads to resentment of the system that subjugates you, typically leading to the establishment of a "better" school of moral reasoning, in which you are no longer getting squashed.

End result is that a society of complete self-interest would actually most likely result in a counter-surge selfless morals, just as a society of selflessness lends itself to creating selfish people due to the temptation its largesse provides.

One of the more interesting factoids about morals and ethics is that even throughout cultures buried in huge conflicts based on morals, societies across the world generally have a lot of common ground in terms of moral foundations. The conflicts generally come out of dogma. Dogma is a practical application of extrapolations of these principles to the real world.

Since our knowledge of the world is grounded almost exclusively in perception, we see great variance in moral dogma based on differing perceptions of reality. For instance, one culture may perceive sexual proclivity to be the single largest threat to the physical health of its people. Hence, its dogma regards such as a serious transgression. Yet another culture may have lost large numbers of people to poor diet due to their climate, thusly institutes strict dietary statutes as a cardinal moral law.

Over time, a lack of re-examination of dogma will lead people to actions that, while perceived as ethical by the greater body, now lack a direct, rational extrapolation from any fundamental moral principle. Hence, the dogma become the moral principle unto itself, causing the system's moral foundation to break down long before it falls into disuse.

The moral principles themselves endure timelessly, even though people have long since abandonned applying them in favor of more profitable or creative exercises in philosphical insanity.
Kaioto
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 04:17:32 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Hey Gang,

Greg 'Xanatos'> Could you by any chance send me your email addy? I need to speak with you abotu something? You can post it here if you want, or send it to the gathering account or my email at siryn7@aol.com?

Whichever you prefer. I just need to speak to you about some gathering related stuff. Thankyou!

Btw, Congrats to Greg's New York Staff for winning the bid for the 2003 Gathering.! ^_^ I wish you all the very very best. If you've got questions, feel free to ask me (I ca only speak for myself, although my staff will probably be happy to answer questions as well) AFTER G2002. ;)

Congrats guys, great bid, you deserved it.

Lexy> Could you email me please? I got some info for you/ have questions to as.

*goes back to php class*
Siryn - [gatheringofgargoyles@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 10:29:59 AM
IP: 129.21.153.75

Greetings all...

All smiles today, because I picked up my new computer last night. Yep, the dinosaur P-1 200 is now waiting its fate as either a server box or spare parts, because now I'm on a Duron 950 (they ran out of 750s, so they gave me a free upsize). Plenty of ram, larger hard drive, and the best part, USB ports and a CDRW Drive!

And, yeah, Josh I know it's not the best computer out there (after all, it's not a Mac), but this is a quantum leap over my old system.

OSCARS - Caught the last few awards... Kudos certainly to Randy Newman (16 nods and he finally gets one...guess him and Susan Lucci have something in common now), and especially to Hally Berry. I half expected Spacek or one of the others to take the Best Actress. Was also good that Denzel snatched the Best Actor award from Russel Crow. I'm only miffed (and SJ got it right) that LOTR didn't get the best Director or the Best Picture award... but considering that Ron Howard has surprised me lately with the scope of his directing view (the man did a live-action "How The Grinch Stole Christmas"... that took balls and guts!), so I can't say that he didn't totally deserve it.

However I'd wished that Sir Iam McKellan had taken best supporting actor for his work as Gandalf. No doubt about it, he WAS Gandalf!

Still upgrading software... May put on Starcraft today. <grins>

Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616@yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 08:52:34 AM
IP: 65.35.129.166

Six inches of snow yesterday... I thought it was supposed to be spring now. Gonna wring that groundhog's neck if I see him again.

DPH > Pick me up a sports almanac on your next trip. I'll reimburse you when you get back from the future. Or just look me up there after you buy it. My large chain of hotels and casinos will be easy to find.

Mooncat > I'd have to suppose the reason for that is because minds that have the ability to be creative, analytical and logical are not typically what cult leaders are looking for. Plus, after several years working in cubicles, people in engineering and other such Dilbert professions undergo a process by which they become desensitized to meaningingless banter (such as words like and "synergy") and other assorted BS that rains down from the leadership. ;)

Greg B. > "Hey, when is Christopher Lee going to get a nod from the Academy?" - Perhaps when the last person in Hollywood who still remembers "Fu Manchu" dies. It's hard to live down a B-movie reputation.
:: scurries off to work ::
Patrick Toman
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 07:00:16 AM
IP: 66.72.201.75

No Crono Trigger for me tonight, too tired. Oh well. Maybe in a few hours.

~~~~~~

Gside: {Good for you. I'm working on filling up on tabs myself. I think I've got Crono completely maxed out.} It was one of my friends who finally got me to play it. Which is weird because she's not someone who would want to get rid of me, or keep me occupied for hours at a time!

{Hey, Randy Newman's good people. I mean, he did Short People. And he was passed over 14 times before. Five times in the last three years.} I'm not saying he didn't deserve the award. But I was thinking of years past. Bob Dylan won, Celine Dion won, a bunch of Disney love songs won. Randy Newman's song didn't seen to match any of those. It seemed to be in a category all its own. I was very happy when it won.

Sophia III: {To all the Old School Gamers in the room: You know what we need? We need a new Blaster Master. Wouldn't that be S\/\/337} I'm too tired to look it up. What's a Blaster Master?

~~~~~~

Okay, I'm too tired to continue. I'm having a shower and going to bed. Good night.
Ch'Tah Tyger - [cwtyger@lionking.org]
Revelstoke, British Columbia, Canada
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 05:14:09 AM
IP: 64.114.0.22

To all the Old School Gamers in the room:
You know what we need? We need a new Blaster Master. Wouldn't that be S\/\/337
Gunjack "Sophia III" Valentine
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 01:19:17 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

DPH> <<If the individual members of society only care for one's self, then where does the collective consciousness about prevention of crime originate>>: So they won't do it to you.

Ch'Tah> <<I've just become addicted to Chrono Trigger!>>: Good for you. I'm working on filling up on tabs myself. I think I've got Crono completely maxed out.
<<It would be interesting to see what would have won in previous years>>: Especially if Miyazaki and the rest had gotten themselves eligable.
<<It's not a bad tune, but I didn't think it was Oscar material!>>: Hey, Randy Newman's good people. I mean, he did Short People. And he was passed over 14 times before. Five times in the last three years.

Spacebabie> <<My Feminine wilys>>: Wiles. Unles you have sex changed mad scientists (specializing in robotics) at your beck and call.
<<Are you pink have a sweet smell and tend to geth foamy when you mix with water?>>: You'd better believe it.

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscatway, NJ
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 12:13:40 AM
IP: 198.151.130.133

**WARNING INCOMING DC, NETLAG TORTURE**
::DPH pulls out two of his brainwashing chairs while DC and Netlag are begging for a chance to prove their innonence in regards to DPH's posts in Yahoo Groups not showing up. DPH forcefully straps DC and Netlag to his chairs in order to reprogram them to be paranoid of DPH so that they won't even consider trying to mess with DPH. Seconds later, DPH removes DC and Netlag from the chairs. Suddenly, Otto Mobile shows up to kill DC and Netlag and disappears into thin air.
**END DC AND NETLAG TORTURE**

Damn it, I'll get you Otto Mobile for taking DC and Netlag out of their misery. Meanwhile my messages are still not showing up at Yahoo Groups.

I would do more "adjustments" than listed if I had time-traveled. Besides setting myself up to being millionaire/billionaire, I would go about ensuring I never had automobile accidents so I could lower my insurance premium. Since I was a millionaire/billionaire, I probably wouldn't be involved in the accident that gave me my back problems. Oh yea, I would try my best to ensure Gargoyles never went off the air and keeping Greg Weisman on board. I'd throw Disney a million bucks to keep Greg Weisman on board after "Hunter's Moon" to do the next season.

Mooncat - <'d think posting TGS under the name time stream would be a disservice to the authors who WOULD (and in the future DID) do the actual writing. What exactly be the point of this traveling back in time just to spoil the TGS for those who would have created it? I don't get it.> By passing along the "Ask Greg" relevations and assuming those revelations are believed, TGS storylines would become altered and making my copy of TGS the only copy of that version of TGS around. What would happen if I published the stuff under the names of the people who originally created the work?

Silvadel - <DPH -- yes I have studied chaos theory in depth and I know how just small tweaks in innocuous ways can cause huge differences down the line. All the more reason to try to fix this, or at least discern why it happened. I figured you were the right person to bring this up to months ago, but unfortunately I havent seen any actual reports from you. > Sorry, but I don't travel through time in this universe because I don't want to be drafted into the mutant Time Enforcer ranks. My best estimate is that someone from the future travelled back in time and joined TGS staff in order to sabotage the project. Apparantly, this person has been monitoring the future to ensure the success of the mission. Beyond that, I'll start doing background checks on TGS staffers to disprove my estimate. I'll let you know something in about 3 weeks.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, March 25, 2002 11:12:29 PM
IP: 204.94.193.72

Mooncat<<The butcher the baker the candle stick maker... those persons who are not the holy warriors probably are not as strongly indoctrinated. The more skilled their profession demands, the less likely you can screw up their brains and get a top/satisfactory performance. You don't often see cults where the members are all engineers, and still practicing their trade.>>

Just to make a point here, the members of the Heaven's Gate Cult that committed mass suicde a few years ago were all involved in the computer business as system consultants or web designers, I forgot which exactly, but still a fairly technical trade requiring some brains.

You're perception of brainwahsing is a bit inaccurate. It's not so much about eliminating the personality of the individual as much as it's about making people come to doubt their own judgement and then filling that lacking with their leader's doctrine and beliefs.

Skippy The Klingon
Monday, March 25, 2002 06:37:34 PM
IP: 209.245.243.91

*sighs*

Back at school again. I was soooo fricking tired when I got in last night that I did not even get up for my first class this morning, philosophy. No biggy, I can get the reading from a friend.
Let's see... what about the break is even worth telling, most of it consisted of sleep and driving. But also got to eat at a few places, Chinese, Japanese, cold-cut sandwiches... Boars Head, good meat. And of course dropped in on Aaron and Robby over in San Antonio, first time I had met Robby, so that was cool. We ate out, hung out, and watched videos made to Animes, so of which we bad ass. Now, I'm here, and leaving out a big part of the trip from which you can guess.

Christine- so can we vote more than once for your short story?

GregX- you know, the only thing I have ever liked with Ron Howard in it was that episode of the Simpsons (yes, I watched that show too much, but not anymore, no time.)

Lain- if you want to, hit your computer, it works with my mother's one at home (it really does) It has a loose board and that jars it back into place.

need a nap now

"If I were human I believe my response would be, "Go to Hell." If I were human."
-Spock, ST6-

Later

Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
denton, tx
Monday, March 25, 2002 01:37:08 PM
IP: 129.120.248.24

Thanks, folks ... I'm just so tickled to see my talk-show zombies making good! ; )

Oscars > enh, didn't watch it except to check in every now and then; too many production numbers and snippy-bitchy hosts. Watched Fear Factor instead. Besides, of all the big movies, we'd only seen one. Multiple times, to be sure ; )

Had last night off after working six in a row. Lots of errands to tend to today, including submitting a couple of stories. And am I going to shamelessly tout my nomination? Betcherass! <g>

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Monday, March 25, 2002 12:47:17 PM
IP: 67.226.61.141

Silverdel -- But the holy warriors/cults are not stand alone self supporting societies/cultures. Like you said, it takes indoctrination (outside force) to bring their members to that particular selfless mindset. At that point I don't think they are as much human individuals as brainwashed drones / automatons.

The butcher the baker the candle stick maker... those persons who are not the holy warriors probably are not as strongly indoctrinated. The more skilled their profession demands, the less likely you can screw up their brains and get a top/satisfactory performance. You don't often see cults where the members are all engineers, and still practicing their trade.

Most cults have their members doing low brain maintenence work -- farm field work, handing out pamphlets and recruiting. The holy warriors only had to focus on being good at killing things, and their needs were met by the supporting orders who were most likely not as selfless or indoctrinated as the warriors themselves.

The scary thought is a warrior order supported by a parallel cult order, but I'm thinking it would have to be a small enclosed society, no more than a villiage at best -- I can't see a whole city of people being controllable over a long period of time. A generation perhaps, or two with break down of the society during that period, but with human nature things would start to break down as soon as the head high hoohah who begins the whole things begins to become decrepit.

I think a strong charismatic figure can start this kind of society, but as long a humans are mortal, I can't see a culture/society continuing (where the members are all of the exact same mindset) past the life of the originating leader, if even that long.

And I mean where every individual in that group is either totally selfish, or all totally selfless. It's just not human nature to be able to achieve and maintain this kind of group mindset.

Least, that is my theory.

well, nap time for this kitten.
later people
Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Monday, March 25, 2002 12:14:08 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Mooncat -- Actually it is done all the time. The holy warriors of various religions and cults are often brainwashed to the point where they will selflessly fight even unto death. Willingly and totally.

Also the whole buddhist religion is striving towards selflessness. It is a large part of eastern philosophy.

As for time travel, you would have time enforcers up the wazoo =).
---

Oscars -- This further affirms that they will not pick a scifi or fantasy picture unless they are hung up by their toenails before the ceremonies. If anything this was the oscars of flagwaving and political correctness. Look at what and who won. It was like praise diversity night. And in the odd cases where it wasnt, you could be sure there was a flag.

DPH -- yes I have studied chaos theory in depth and I know how just small tweaks in innocuous ways can cause huge differences down the line. All the more reason to try to fix this, or at least discern why it happened. I figured you were the right person to bring this up to months ago, but unfortunately I havent seen any actual reports from you.
silvadel
Monday, March 25, 2002 11:30:46 AM
IP: 208.59.247.9

My mother and I watched the awards last night, and well that will be the last time I watch it ever. Let’s just hope the MTV movie awards does better.

Well my mom and I had this interesting discussion.
Mom” At first I thought that was Harry Potter but they didn’t have the dementors in the first book.
Me”Those were ring wraiths, thanks to the movie I can more asily imagine thse boogey men that gave Harry the ebbie jeebies

Did anyone notice that the camera’s didn’t capture Russell Crowe’s mug? When Whoopi made a reference to him?

Whoopi’s costumes were nice but I wanted to see her dress as a hobbit.

And is it me or does Toby Mcguire look like Elijah Wood’s big brother? I guess its those beautiful blue eyes.

And WTF Ian didn’t win??? I feel like locating every member of the academy and placing a bust of an Orc dripping in blood on their pillows. Jeez the one they pic was the one in the movie that NOBODY saw. If it was a horse reace it would be like the old horse with the lame leg winning. Well that’s the Academy for you, If Iand couldn’t win why not let Ethan Hawke win…cause I soo want him to bang me.

As for the other major awards, well I was in bed by 11:00...Benadryl does that too a person.

Now for my to do list.
1. Vow never to see another thing Opie has made.
2. Vow never to watch the oscars again.
3. Go see Circe du Solei

Tim Phipps Welcome back.

Daphne<<<scary. >>>Yeah its too scary

DPH<<<He's after my own heart.>>> Don’t you mean stomache.

Josh<<<Don't wanna know.>>>Don’t worry its not as gross as it sounds.<<<and that's bad because...? >>>Who said I said it was bad.<<<How>>>My Feminine wilys <<<Oh well, while you guys are there...I'll be rakin in the cash.>>>I’ll be having a great summer vacation and you?<<<Actually most republicans bother me>>>Does SJ bother you?<<>>People will take pictures at the gathering.

Gside<<<Yes, I am occaisonally known by that name>>>Are you pink have a sweet smell and tend to geth foamy when you mix with water?

GXB<<<All three.>>>I figured<<<And never forget that Hitler, Mussolini, Vlad the Impaler, Jack the Ripper, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan and SJ are Christians.>>> The only exception is that SJ is cool and might possibly be a muffin.

Wilek>>>I’m suddenly reminded of a Batman Beyon episode. Holy cow we have a real life Anton Sevarius. Hmmm I’d see if I can get angel wings.

Christine>>>Congrats.

SJ<<<Let’s see if I can predict this crap.>>>I kew youd be here. I’m also waiting for your recap.<<<As for Jon Voight….eh, I want to bang his daughter.>>>If said anything different then I would doubt you being the real SJ<<<Altman is an old bitch>>>Why is he still here?<<>>it’s the Academy getting its revenge on us for letting Titanic win.<<<to see Halle Berry talk about how horrible her life has been.>>>Yeah that’s the REAL reason you want to see Miss Berry.

Jaden<<>>Congrats.

GXB<<<And Ian McKellen didn't win. That is just a crime against the arts.>>>And it was the guy who had the most odds against him that won.

Spacebabie
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Monday, March 25, 2002 11:29:47 AM
IP: 67.24.18.21

Patrick -- ::purrs::

Actually, I think the most powerful and wealthy could gather a fighting force to them, by reason that the fighting force would do it for the big paycheck and benefits the wealthier patrons could provide. If the reward is great enough, as Xanatos once put it, "a man would walk barefoot through hell" -- I don't think most of Xanatos's hirelings with the guns are doing this out of any love for Xanatos, and their dedication to keeping him alive is not out of selflessness. Ditto for mercenaries and high echelon bodyguards. They do it for the paycheck, not a sense of morality.

The trick here, with the understanding that self interest is the primary motivating factor, is to be sure your guards could not be bought out by another power/faction. You could do that by a mix of fear and reward. Loyalty is rewarded, and betrayal is punished in a horrible and vicious way.

The only thing here, is a pure self interest based society is only hypothetical/theoretical -- it could no more exist than a totally selfless based society. Simply because it is not normal human nature to be all of one thing or the other. To have any large group of people be totally selfless or totally selfish would be pretty much impossible without outside modification -- and afterwards you couldn't really call the result human. Human nature is all this lovely chaotic contrast of conflicting emotions, hate and affection, desire and disgust, appreciation and abhorrance... And it's how we see the world through a filter of our emotions that makes us human. Humanity is a collection of individuals with varying degrees of self interest and selflessness mixed together. Anything else would be almost insectile in a sameness of mind, if we are considering large groups of people who are *totally* selfless or selfish.

I believe this is why the ideal extremes of pure communism or pure capitalism would not work with great quantities of real live humans. Small controlled groups might pull it off, but the larger the group, the greater probability it will all fall apart the sooner.

Just some thoughts
Mooncat

Mooncat
Monday, March 25, 2002 11:13:18 AM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Ah, so many comments, so little time.

I'll just comment on the Oscars for now.

"A Beautiful Mind" beat "The Lord of the Rings". ::Sigh:: There are so many responses to this from several points of view (not all neccesarily my own) that I can post. So I'll post a few and let you pick one.

"This has pretty much reaffirmed my belief that Hollywood sucks."
"...And people wonder why I don't believe in God"
"Ron Howard and Russel Crowe must have sold their souls for this piece of crap."
"Dammit, Hollywood politics suck much more than real politics.

And Ian McKellen didn't win. That is just a crime against the arts.

Oh well, there was word a month ago that the LOTR crew had something special planned for the Oscars. Right now I kinda wish they had Sala Baker come in wearing Sauron's armor and just bitch slap Ron Howard and his cronies just like he bitch slapped the forces of good in the prologue to LOTR.

But I guess really what it comes down to is that LOTR is a "fantasy flick", and "A Beautiful Mind" is not. That and it has Russel Crowe in a role that was designed to win an Oscar. This is why I'm sick of Tom Hanks also. Oh well, at least Crowe didn't win. I like Denzel Washington.

And now for an observation on Halle Berry. I couldn't help but laugh a bit when she made her speech. She was so over the top. She's a great actress, she deserved that award and I can understand getting a little emotional, but that was just ridiculous.

Overall, Hollywood politics were much more apparant this year than in any previous year I've watched. A few picks I agreed with, but like SJ said, 2001 was a horrible year for movies. Not that 2002 is looking to be any better. Peter Jackson has two more shots at the Oscar, but I'm willing to make a bet that the next two won't be getting any nominations outside of the Technical stuff.

Hey, when is Christopher Lee going to get a nod from the Academy?
Greg Bishansky
Monday, March 25, 2002 09:01:45 AM
IP: 167.206.248.11

Mooncat > :: pets the pretty kitty :: Just haven't done that in a while. ;)

DPH > The flaw in your logic as I see it is that in a society where everyone is motivated purely by self-interest, there would not be anyone around who you COULD hire to provide you with security and protection. Being a police officer, a soldier, or even just bodyguard entails being able to put someone else's survival and well being above your own. If the thing I care most about above all is ME, I am not going to put myself in harm's way and take a bullet for YOU. I am not going to defend YOUR stuff, I'm going to stay home and defend MY stuff. And that's where I see things breaking down. At that point, you don't even HAVE a society anymore... you've just got a lot of people with shotguns defending their own personal little "Nation of Me" from each other.

And on that note... it's time to go make the donuts (in my case, "make the donuts" means "design highway improvements for the betterment of society"), so other comments will have to wait until later.
Patrick Toman
Monday, March 25, 2002 07:25:25 AM
IP: 66.72.201.75

Yikes, I've just become addicted to Chrono Trigger! I can't believe I played it for nine hours straight yesterday, and then for another two hours after the Oscars.

~~~~~~~

Ravyn: Math comics! Finally, someone's drawing my language! And my favourite one is also the one at the very bottom.

Gside: Thanks! Now all I have to do is post more often, and keep posting!

Warpmind: {And the O in IOU stands for... wait... you don't have that kind of clearance.} I just assume that the IU bought one too many vowels. :)

Sevarius Jr.: It's that time of year again, time to review everyone's Oscar predictions, and make fun of the famous people. ;)

{Prediction: I want Denzel to win, but Crowe has probably slept with half the voters already, so he gets the win} Looks like for your first prediction, you should have gone with your favourite! I haven't seen the movie, but it's cool that Denzel got the award, because . . . (continued in a while)

{Prediction: Ian McKellen gets an Oscar, as payback for having to do the J-O-B to that Italian moron Roberto Benigni a few years ago.} I forget who won! I wasn't paying attention!

{Prediction: Sissy Spacek wins. And by God, I’m not lying that I would sign away my entire life savings today if someone would dump a bucket of pig’s blood on her as she’s making her acceptance speech.} It's too bad that she didn't win, because I was waiting with that pig's blood! (Continued from before). . . Halle Berry also won! It's definitely progress when the Academy recognizes black people for their achievements as well as white.

{Prediction: The beautiful and talented Ms. Connelly. Everything I’ve done, I’ve done for you. I move the stars for no one.} Is it just me, or did I miss the Supporting Actress category as well? What, don't I care about these people? I guess I don't! Especially not Kate Winslet, since she was in Titanic.

{Prediction: It all comes down to which do I hate more – Disney’s “Monster’s Inc.”, or that commie bastard Stephen Spielberg and his Dreamworks production “Shrek” I hate Spielberg TONS more than Disney, but Shrek has this won easily.} I myself was cheering for Monsters Inc., but like you said, Shrek had it won easily. Oh well.

It's interesting that they only started handing out awards for animated films this year. It would be interesting to see what would have won in previous years. Sure, we all say "The Lion King" in 1994, "The Secret Of NIMH" in 1982, "The Little Mermaid" in 1989, etc., but that's just guesswork. Without knowing what the nominees would have been, there's no way we'd know for sure who would win. After all, I think 1995 would have been a toss-up between "Pocahontas" and "Balto", but there might be another animated film I'm overlooking.

{Prediction: Despite all of my efforts to find and / or doctor photos of Ron Howard enjoying two underage boys along side Cardinal Egan, Opie wins the gold.} Um . . . I won't comment on that, except that you were right.

{Prediction: I want Lord of the Rings to win. YOU want Lord of the Rings to win. This is why “A Beautiful Mind” WILL win. Eh, there’s hope for Jackson in the next couple years….} I'm one of the few who couldn't care less about who won the best movie. I never saw any of them. The only one I've seen that was nominated in anything was Black Hawk Down. All I'll say is that you were right. A Beautiful Mind won, tying LOTR for most Oscars this year.

{So there we go. Let’s see how right I am, because I AM perfect.} You're not as perfect as you thought you were, but you came closer than a lot of people. Wow.

Funny thing: I thought the best song would be the one from Pearl Harbo[u]r (Yo, America, buy a vowel!), "There You'll Be", because it was sung by a pop star, and it was to Pearl Harbo[u]r what "My Heart Will Go On" was to Titanic. My mom thought it was going to be the (far superior) "May It Be", by Enya, from LOTR (the keywords there are "from LOTR"). We both were wrong. I didn't expect the song from Monsters Inc. to win! It's not a bad tune, but I didn't think it was Oscar material!

One thing that didn't surprise me: Sting didn't win, for the second year in a row.

Time travel stuff: I hesitate to decide what I'd change about myself, because I wouldn't know what would happen to me now. If I spikked Kindergarten like my parents wanted me to, would I be as big of a The Lion King, Balto, or Gargoyles fan as I am today? Would I know the same kinds of friends, or would I have been part of the popular group in school? How much would that suck? (A lot, let me tell you. Popularity is overrated.) Would I have gotten into writing, or would I be more of an artist? I know for a fact that I am not good at drawing because of a simple act of locker vandalism in Grade 4. Erase that, and my whole life changes. I can see myself drawing at least as well as some of my on-line friends, and owning a scanner, maybe a tablet, and having an archive at VCL, or maybe Yerf (or both). As it is, my drawing skills are so bad that a stick figure comic strip would be drawn better than anything I could produce.

What's weird, though, is that I like movies such as Back To The Future and Frequency, TV shows liek Quantum Leap, and games such as Chrono Trigger, which all have to do with time travel, and changing certain events for the better. I don't know why I'm so eager to change other people's lives, but hesitant when it comes to my own history. Maybe I just don't want to screw myself up, or lose a bunch of the friends I met by chance.

~~~~~~~

Wow, my first real post since last October, and I didn't think it would end up this long, or this weird. Next time, I'll try to get some sleep before I post.

And the winner for Best Oscar Acceptance Speech was Halle Berry. For a list of everyone she thanked, look in the phone book. ;)

Until later, reach for the light, and pretend I said something profound!
Ch'Tah Tyger - [cwtyger@lionking.org]
Revelstoke, British Columbia, Canada
Monday, March 25, 2002 07:14:53 AM
IP: 64.114.0.19

DPH -- I disagree. A society based on pure self interest could motivate a very strict and draconian law system, as those with the most power and possessions would want to ensure the protection and continuation of their wealth and power. Pure self interest could also propel technological advancement. The desire for more power, more control, more wealth, via the advancement of technology. Pure self interest does not necessarily mean pure anarchy or lack of cultural progress.

Morals are completely subjective. The members of the Inquisition believed their every atrocity (our view) was completely moral and right (their view) -- Except for some rather inventive torture devices, the very "moral" based creation of the Inquistion brought about no benefit or advance for humanity.

Many things thought "immoral" by some are what others consider art and beauty. In times past, the "moral" majority have used the law to surpress or try to eradicate creations of technology and art that have benefited humanity, on the basis that these ideas and creations were "immoral". However what was immoral in one time period and place, might be well received common practice in another.

Time Travel -- ummm... I'd think posting TGS under the name time stream would be a disservice to the authors who WOULD (and in the future DID) do the actual writing. What exactly be the point of this traveling back in time just to spoil the TGS for those who would have created it? I don't get it.

Me, if I were to travel back in time, I'd take the opportunity to buy a LOT of Gargoyles cels and production art when it was more available and not so expensive. *^_^* And tape the shows in SP when they first aired, for perfect unedited editions. And poke my past self so she could start writing fan fic in the Gargoyles universe years ago instead of months ago. *^_^*

Heck,if I could go back and time, and really change it, I'd make my past self go to a school that would lead to being an intern at Disney so I could work on Gargoyles in the mid- 1990s. whee!!!

And I'd make myself stay with aerobics and Tae Kwon Do (so I'd get beyond a green tip belt), learn Japanese, and warn myself not to lend money to certain people who never ever pay it back.

Things I'd bring back in time with me... if I could bring things back in time... hmmm... My computer, with spare everything, and loads of music files and software like Adobe Photoshop, my scanner, etc, so I could use it for artwork. Actually, I think taking things back in time is an iffy kind of thing. I'd rather just let all my knowledge and experience jump back in time and land in my past self, and go from there. I think I'd like to reboot myself from age 13, download all my current knowledge and experience into my past self, and go from there. That would be neat *^_^*

well, gotta jet for now
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, March 25, 2002 01:30:23 AM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Patrick - < Society's interest in locking up the "one-time" rapist and/or murderer is to ensure that he/she does not evolve into a serial rapist and/or murderer. If we as a society just let crimes be committed with impunity, then anarcy would rule and no one would be save.> But that society has a whole cares about its individual members. I'm following (or at least trying to follow) the notion that society does not need morals because self-interest is all that it needs. If the individual members of society only care for one's self, then where does the collective consciousness about prevention of crime originate? If I care about only myself, then there is no need for law enforcement because I can hire a security company to protect me or build a concrete bonker to protect my property. If we had started out without morals and never acquired them ever, we wouldn't be as technologically advanced as we are. <Simple common sense and respect for your fellow human beings should suffice.> Why should you respect your fellow human beings (outside of work) if you care about only yourself? <If we as a society just let crimes be committed with impunity, then anarcy would rule and no one would be save.> That's where I veiw the logical conclusion of a society based only off self-interest. My whole point is every society has to have basic morals (beyond self-interest) or it will self-destruct. I hope there are no people in this CR who want pure anarchy. If so, please form your own colony and we'll gladly enforce your borders.

Silvadel - <This couldnt be anyone local unless said was in possession of a knowledge of the future as that would be counted already. The only way the number could change is if someone from the future(or with knowledge of said) were acting on the past. Since I can see no reasonable reason for someone to do that, I tend to conclude that there is something deeper going on.> I do see a reasonable reason for someone to do that. Assume that TGS manages to influence somebody (some group of people) to act a certain way. Some person (or group of people)does not like the outcome of the aforementioned actions. One solution to the problem is to join TGS staff early on and from behind the scenes work to ensure that TGS does not continue byeond a certain point or at least whatever stories that influenced the aforementioned people do not get written. One question arises, though: Why communist have occured if Karl Marx never wrote any books? If you answer "yes", then you have your justification for wanting to prevent TGS from having certain stories/seasons published.

If I was going to travel back in time, I would bring all the TGS stories and artwork and all the Ask Greg Archives with me. I'd pass on the Ask Greg relevations to the future TGS staff and start releasing one of the TGS stories and artwork associated with it every two weeks, altering the author's and artist's names to be "Timestream" because the TGS staff would have diverged early on from where it went.

Hmm. Slow day today.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, March 25, 2002 12:34:59 AM
IP: 204.94.193.37

Leo> <<Do people wait in anticipation jut to be in the to 10?>>: Depends on the person, and on the punctuality of the wiper.

Congratulations Christine.
<<let's take up a collection to get them a vasectomy as a wedding present, huh?>>: I hear it feels a "lot like having everyone you've ever pissed off get in a line and take turns kicking you in the 'nads'!"

Warpmind> <<the wood was just plain firewood. We are so sophisticated as to use electric ovens>>: I didn't mean for the ovens, I meant for the sheep.
<<you don't have that kind of clearance>>: Are you so sure?
<<And what DID Lord Naughtius say, anyway?>>: Actually, it doesn't exactly apply, but it's still a good warning. "What other type of monster has to use its freaking sex organs to fight off people who have a tendancy to favor sharp, pointy weapons that were basically made for the sole purpose of slicing off body parts?"

And an mp3. How about some instrumental bluegrass? No? Tough. You're getting it anyway. Foggy Mountain Breakdown by Earl Scruggs and Friends (including Steve Martin and Paul Schaffer).

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscatway, NJ
Monday, March 25, 2002 12:13:59 AM
IP: 198.151.130.133

Well I've got some news for you. I may or may not be deployed to somewhere soon. I don't know where or when or for even how long. I couldn't even say if I did. Big hush, hush army would like to think that everything is a big secret.

Imzadi<Jaden is f*cked!> Yeah maybe.

School- I got all A's in college Ha ha ha!

Jan- Funny thing, I was planning on asking my parents on my families health history. Since I'm having so many problems I figured I should find out since now seems like the time for them to show up.

Green Baron- Sorry about disappearing on you the other day but my computer decided that it wanted to play a mind game on me.

Well anyways, I'm heading out.
Later.
Jaden - [jaden1444@aol.com]
Sunday, March 24, 2002 11:28:34 PM
IP: 172.190.169.235

It’s that time of year again.

It’s the big night in Hollywood, where all of Tinsel Town’s most famous and powerful join together for that massive circle jerk that is the Oscars. Who will walk away with the gold? Who amongst us cares? I do! And you will too, because I give you –

SJ’s OFFICIAL OSCAR PREDICTIONS!!!

Let’s see if I can predict this crap.

BEST ACTOR

Russell Crowe, “A Beautiful Mind”
Sean Penn, “I Am Sam”
Will Smith, “Ali”
Denzel Washington, “Training Day”
Tom Wilkinson, “In the Bedroom”

Oh my God, black people were nominated this year. You disappoint me, Academy.
In all seriousness, let’s go down the list of candidates. Crowe won last year for Gladiator, undeservedly so, but that’s okay cause I could tolerate him last year. Penn is nominated for one reason only – he played a retard. If you didn’t know, the golden rule in Hollywood is that if you play a retard (of conversely, a homosexual dying of AIDS), you WILL be nominated for an award. Personally, I found “I Am Sam” to be the year’s best comedy, but I digress….Will Smith doesn’t have a chance in hell, which is good, because I’m ashamed to share the same planet with him and his ego and his annoying bitch wife. Denzel is my boy! Oh wait…..probably a bad choice of words to describe him…..Wilkinson I’ve never heard of before now, but hey, he could win, I guess.

Prediction: I want Denzel to win, but Crowe has probably slept with half the voters already, so he gets the win.

BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR:

Jim Broadbent, “Iris”
Ethan Hawke, “Training Day”
Ben Kingsley, “Sexy Beast”
Ian McKellen, “The Lord of the Rings”
Jon Voight, “Ali”

Ah, one of the most worthless awards given! Seriously, you win this, and you don’t really do much afterwards. Except for Kevin Spacey, but hey, Cuba Gooding Jr. won this award and years later he’s making goddamn movies about dogsledding. Anyway, I’ve never heard of the Iris guy. Ethan won’t win. Kingsley could win, I guess. Ian is my guy! Oh wait….um, inappropriate terminology given his preferences….uh, I want him to win. As for Jon Voight….eh, I want to bang his daughter.

Prediction: Ian McKellen gets an Oscar, as payback for having to do the J-O-B to that Italian moron Roberto Benigni a few years ago.

BEST ACTRESS

Halle Berry, “Monster’s Ball”
Judi Dench, “Iris”
Nicole Kidman, “Moulin Rouge”
Sissy Spacek, “In the Bedroom”
Renee Zellwegger, “Bridget Jones’ Diary”

ANOTHER black person nominated? Ooooookay. Progress and all that. Good for you, Hollywood! Paulo says: “Halle Berry’s riding in the FRONT of the bus…to the Oscars! Ge ge ge ge!!!” She won’t win. Is there some sort of rule that Judi Dench HAS to be nominated for this thing? She won’t win. Nicole Kidman looks much hotter after dumping Tom Cruise. She could win. Sissy Spacek? Carrie, you dirty pillows are showing!!! Pig. And finally, Renee Zellwegger, who hasn’t looked good since she shacked up with Jim Carrey, who apparently banged the good-looking out of her. Thanks, Jim.

Prediction: Sissy Spacek wins. And by God, I’m not lying that I would sign away my entire life savings today if someone would dump a bucket of pig’s blood on her as she’s making her acceptance speech.

BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS

Jennifer Connelly, “A Beautiful Mind”
Helen Mirren, “Gosford Park”
Maggie Smith, “Gosford Park”
Marisa Tomei, “In the Bedroom”
Kate Winslet, “Iris”

Jennifer Connelly is a goddess. I eagerly anticipate what she will be wearing to the awards, to try and decide whether it’s a 2 or 4 tissue night. I could care less about those two bitches from Gosford Park. The only way in hell Tomei wins again is if someone digs up Jack Palance and has him read the envelope. Kate Winslet is the long shot. BTW, anyone know if she’s still a chunker?

Prediction: The beautiful and talented Ms. Connelly. Everything I’ve done, I’ve done for you. I move the stars for no one.
“Do not fret, Anna, I will give you some more pretty things soon.”
“I’m not Anna.”
“You will be soon, yes.”
How’s that for obscurity?

BEST ANIMATED FILM

“Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius”
“Monsters, Inc.”
“Shrek”

It’s the first year that an animated flick has been nominated for an award. So, who will win this prestigious (snicker) first honor? Who cares?!?! I sure don’t.

Prediction: It all comes down to which do I hate more – Disney’s “Monster’s Inc.”, or that commie bastard Stephen Spielberg and his Dreamworks production “Shrek” I hate Spielberg TONS more than Disney, but Shrek has this won easily.

BEST DIRECTOR

Robert Altman, “Gosford Park”
Ron Howard, “A Beautiful Mind”
Peter Jackson, “Lord of the Rings”
David Lynch, “Mulholland Drive”
Ridley Scott, “Black Hawk Down”

Wow, what a crowd here. Altman is an old bitch, and I’m counting the days until his geezer ass drops dead. The Academy seems to love Opie, for some reason. I, naturally, prefer his evil twin Clint Howard. Peter Jackson is my Lord And Saviour (screw YOU, Lucas, I have a new Messiah now!). David Lynch only makes movies that HE understands (I defy you to watch a film like, “Lost Highway” for example, and understand what the hell is going on, other than Robert Blake going around shooting people. The cold grip of irony, huh Rob?). And Ridley Scott doesn’t have a chance in hell, despite giving me a wonderful new catchphrase of “Skinnies on the roof! Skinnies on the roof!!!”.

Prediction: Despite all of my efforts to find and / or doctor photos of Ron Howard enjoying two underage boys along side Cardinal Egan, Opie wins the gold.

And the big one…..

BEST PICTURE:

“A Beautiful Mind”
“In the Bedroom”
“Gosford Park”
“Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Rings”
“Moulin Rouge”

What can I say? It was a REALLY bad year for movies. Personally I thought “Memento” totally smoked every one of these films, sans LOTR, but of course all it gets is a screenplay nod. “A Beautiful Mind” is the frontrunner, despite not really being that great. I think if they had left in all of the homosexuality and filthy anti-semitic ranting, it’d be a more entertaining flick, but that’s just me. “In the Bedroom” could be good, but I never saw it, so I have no clue. “Gosford Park” is THE most overrated piece of sh!t to be nominated in a LONG time. It’s a comedy! No wait, it’s a mystery! No wait, it sucks! I hope to hell this doesn’t win. Lord of the Rings? BEST FILM EVER. Or maybe not, but of the 5, definitely the best film out there. But it a fantasy flick, and for some reason, no one ever wants to vote for those (i.e. Crouching Tiger last year). But it has the most nominations, and the film with the most noms usually wins, so…..so I don’t know. I’ll cross my fingers and hope for the best. And “Moulin Rouge” brings up the rear, appropriately. I hear if this doesn’t win best picture, there will be riots in the streets of West Hollywood. RIOTS IN THE STREETS.

Prediction: I want Lord of the Rings to win. YOU want Lord of the Rings to win. This is why “A Beautiful Mind” WILL win. Eh, there’s hope for Jackson in the next couple years….

So there we go. Let’s see how right I am, because I AM perfect.

Now I’m off to watch the Barbara Walters special, to see Halle Berry talk about how horrible her life has been.

Your life's a movie! Ge ge ge ge!!!!

Sevarius Jr. - [sevariusjr@hotmail.com]
Sunday, March 24, 2002 07:14:16 PM
IP: 207.172.11.147

Silvadel - Will you email me privately so we can make arrangements to keep this ploy working well?
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, March 24, 2002 01:25:40 PM
IP: 204.94.193.40

Warpmind --

Tsk Tsk Tsk -- that is just a ploy to keep people in line.. It stops the residents from doing things that they know they shouldnt but are tempted to do anyway. Trust me -- it is completely under control =) [fnord]

silvadel
Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:57:33 PM
IP: 208.59.247.9

*Warpmind strides in, the sunlight reflecting off his scalp.*
Ah, but 'tis good to shave one's head... again. And again. And again. };)
silvadel: Apparently you've never been to IOU; anyone who's even visited that place knows that between WUSE experiments, C.T.H.U.L.H.U. field projects and the CoM courses of Applied Theology (especially during finals), the fabric of reality there is fragile, charred and inconsistent. At best. ;) The Illuminati do, for that matter, not really have any connections to IOU. Trust me. };)

Gside: No, the wood was just plain firewood. We are so sophisticated as to use electric ovens. ;) And the O in IOU stands for... wait... you don't have that kind of clearance. And what DID Lord Naughtius say, anyway?

DPH: You ask who S&M are? Tsk; as soon as I noticed mention of a marriage between S&M, I phased out of THAT conversation. };) As for how IOU is still standing - "still standing" is a relative term. Much of the WUSE buildings, for instance, are of the cheap, easily-rebuilt cardboard variety. Plus, the Janitor's pretty handy to have around.

Lain: Didja get that e-mail?

Christine: WhOOO! Go get that award, y'hear? :)

And that about concludes this post. Cheerio, gang.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@hotmail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Sunday, March 24, 2002 10:59:34 AM
IP: 193.217.205.11

Greetings all...

First, Congrats to Christine for the nomiation! Will be pulling for you!

PERSONAL STUFF : Found out friday that my training period as a manager trainee is up, and monday (providing that they have them) I'll be getting my Floor Manager uniforms, my set of keys to the store and register, and my access code to the network email and store system network. In short, I have arrived... now the REAL headaches of management begin.

This comes just on the heels of something that really REALLY spooks me... last night, my mother came in around 2am to tell me that she had to go to my grandparents, seems my last surviving grandfather was dying (this was told to me while I was still sleeping)... Woke up at six this morning to learn that he didn't die, he had a stroke, and is currently in the hospital. I haven't learned much more, but mom is there, and will be calling if things worsen or improve.

god, the spooky part is this is EXACTLY the same way I learned that the other grandfather (my dad's dad) had died. i hope history isn't going to repeat itself...

GARGOYLES RELATED NEWS - Just to let everyone know, I've decided that I want to get Avalon Mists off and running sooner... so until further notice, the offical due date for submissions has been pushed ahead to April 30th, 2002.

This is the LAST DAY to get submissions of art, stories, articles, etc. to me to be included in the Spring Quarter Issue of the zine... so remember, April 30th! Please send your best work in!

And with that, I'm back to waiting for news on Grandad...

Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616@yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Sunday, March 24, 2002 10:14:02 AM
IP: 65.35.135.128

***Bragging time!***

Zombies Nominated for Origins Award!

My story "Dawn of the Living-Impaired" in The Book of All Flesh was selected for the final ballot in the category Best Game-Related Short Work. The Origins Award is the top honor in the gaming industry. Click for the full list of this year's nominees.

This is a great surprise and honor; I submitted it as a possibility because the editor suggested that everyone on Team Zombie give it a try, but I never expected anything would come of it.

"Origins Award Nominated Author" ... godDAMN, but I love the sound of that!

Of course, "Origins Award _Winning_ Author" would be even cooler ...

Public voting begins in April. ; )

In other news, I just found out that all of our sabledrake.com addresses have been kaput most of last week, so if anyone has e-mailed me at that handle since about Wednesday and hasn't heard from me, please re-send as it may have been devoured in the ozone.

DPH > I'm guessing they're the twits who've been cluttering the room; let's take up a collection to get them a vasectomy as a wedding present, huh? For the betterment of the world.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Sunday, March 24, 2002 09:28:37 AM
IP: 67.226.12.74

Someone remind me... is this "I've seen the future of TGS" talk supposed to be amusing? All it does for me is give me flashbacks to 1985. :: checks the photo of his family to see if everyone's heads are still there and puts on some Huey Lewis music ::

Re: morals > Society's interest in locking up the "one-time" rapist and/or murderer is to ensure that he/she does not evolve into a serial rapist and/or murderer. If we as a society just let crimes be committed with impunity, then anarcy would rule and no one would be save. Society makes laws defining what is not considered by the majority to be acceptable human behavior precisely to protect the many from the predatory few. And for offenses like rape and murder, one time is too many and there should be no "freebies." You even don't need a set of God-given commandments or codified religious moral law to reach these conclusions. Simple common sense and respect for your fellow human beings should suffice.
Patrick Toman
Sunday, March 24, 2002 09:23:15 AM
IP: 66.72.202.174

DPH -- Actually the future doesnt shift unless acted upon by artificial means by people not counted in the initial rendering of the future. In essence at one point TGS was going to have 8 seasons. That is what would happen without interference. When the archieves for say 2015 change from 8 total seasons to 4 total seasons, it means that something influenced the outcome. This couldnt be anyone local unless said was in possession of a knowledge of the future as that would be counted already. The only way the number could change is if someone from the future(or with knowledge of said) were acting on the past. Since I can see no reasonable reason for someone to do that, I tend to conclude that there is something deeper going on. Hence it gets some interest.
silvadel
Sunday, March 24, 2002 01:58:09 AM
IP: 208.59.247.9

11th.
silvadel
Sunday, March 24, 2002 01:48:15 AM
IP: 208.59.247.9

10th.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, March 24, 2002 01:45:54 AM
IP: 68.38.244.145

Top Ten! :)
Ravyn and Coyote
Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:17:23 AM
IP: 150.135.180.226

8th. Do people wait in anticipation jut to be in the to 10?
Leo
Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:14:34 AM
IP: 172.162.166.58

Seventh!
Gunjack "SAW Man!" Valentine
Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:10:17 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

SIXTH!!!!!!!!!!!!
had to restart my jerkface computer!!!
LAIN!!!!!!!!
Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:09:14 AM
IP: 64.228.192.112

Without wanting to sound stupid, who are S & M?

Silvadel - History is constant state of change. Just stating when history records Timedancer season 4 alters the date Timedancer season 4 premieres. According to my unnamed sources, wagering that the season premiere of Timedancer season 4 will be published by December 31, 2002 is a almost a sure thing. <By the time the election gets to the people, their only choices are a few people, all of whom are not the people one would want in office.> Actually, theoritically the process we have right now should remove the extremists.

Ravyn - I was hoping Oklamahoma would lose today because it would make history - a 12 seed is not supposed to make it to the final four. Stupid question - what year of NCAA tournament history had the fewest upsets?

Warpmind - <Illuminati University is, however, sufficiently vast of a time/space nexus with branches everywhere, nothing is impossible. In fact, nothing is impossible there to such an extent, they *need* Reality stabilizers.> Sounds like my kind of place. One stupid logical question: since nothing is impossible, how is that university still standing?

GXB - Hmm. I will make it my mission to find some good reason for morals. What keeps . . nevermind that scenario is true right now. What about helping the child who was abused and is more likely to be an abuser when he/she grows up? Don't tell you that helping that child is in society's best interests - I mean compared to millions of people around, that child is likely to abuse at most 12 people. Society would have more important things to worry under your morals, right? Also, forget about going after the one-time rapists because it is not society's best interest to go after that person, right?

Ravyn - <Okay all you math types out there> ::Perks his ears up:: Cool link.

5th. Top 10!!
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:06:21 AM
IP: 204.94.193.57

Fourth!
Patrick Toman
Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:56:27 PM
IP: 66.72.202.174

claiming 3rd for me and aaron to share :)
shinigami
Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:52:10 PM
IP: 172.150.21.206

2nd? cool.
God bless!
Daphne
Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:50:28 PM
IP: 129.68.10.47

First

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:48:39 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68