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Woke up bright and early at 1030 because...well, I don't really know why.

Yesterday was a great day. Finished my classes at 1100 and got handed two really easy assignments. Next week is starting to look rather empty, believe it or not. After lunch we drove down to Apple headquarters in Cupertino, and the UCB-MUG got a tour of the facility. No, we didn't get to see anything secret or special. But we did get a nice Q&A session with two of the major programmers on OS X, including Jordan Hubbard (supposedly some big UNIX-y guy, now he works for Apple). Then end of the trip included a visit to the Apple Company Store, where everything Apple sells is heavily discounted. I bought a sweet slipcase for my iBook that I've been looking for. And then pizza, paid for by Apple 8-)

After that a couple of us went to check out this sweet townhouse I might be staying at while I work at GE. It was *really* nice. Although I'd kind of be paying over one third of the rent (and there would be 4 other people in the house), I'm not gonna complain since GE pays part of my share as a "relocation fee". But anyway, the place has its own washer/dryer, I'd have my own room, big TV, living room, huge kitchen, parking...everything I could want in a temporary living space.

I am *still* trying to log into my yahoo prefs to switch them. Did you know that Yahoo reset *everyone's* marketing prefs to "yes"?

Oh look, another suicide bomb on a bus in Israel. Looks like that 2.96 average is climbing just a bit.

In other news, Microsoft, IBM, and VeriSign are forming some sort of alliance to tell people how to build secure websites. 'Squeeze me? Microsoft doesn't know the first thing about secure *anything*. Windows XP, "the most secure windows ever" had a major hole discovered 3 days after its release. Stooges.

I got a *huge* tax refund! Woohoo! I guess being an independent contractor has its benefits.

I also got my schedule finalized: I'm taking matrix analysis, intro to geological engineering, foundation engineering, and a grad course in computer aided engineering in C/C++. I'm really excited about that one.

Today was mostly work, little play. Office hours, learning how to use new project management software, even did a little real work.

replies (finally)

Salanit: <>: That last line was a joke. Obviously you can/have suggested it.

Aaron: <<That's 'cause we ain't played cowboys 'n muslims yet>>: That was horrible.

Christine: <<They let us back into the country, huzzah!>>: Next time don't let tim make bomb jokes ;-) <<Godiva>>: Damn those are some big boobs!

Shadowrider: <<someone found nothing better to say than implying me to be anti-Semitic>>: He was not saying that at all. He was just saying that it would be easy for him to turn your words into that. I don't honestly believe that he thinks *any* us are jew-haters. <<Except, naturally, if she did thank you in a more...intimate...way...>>: I don't know what you're talking about. ;-)

Impfac: <<don’t you people ever stop?>>: Only at bedtime. <<Women at that time of the month should be kind enough not to post>>: This was just uncalled for. Most of the heavy flamer-warmongers are men. <<On the other hand, Israel has had nuclear weapons for years>>: Perhaps this is why there has been no massive land invasion of Israel.

Yooper: <<Designing the reactors, I imagine. As well as the generation systems>>: Good call. So what do they need a CivE for? <<I'm assuming the Taiwan project you are referring to is the Lungman plant>>: Yup.

Winterwolf: <<The food was good up until my body realized that there was too much oil/grease from the food in my system>>: Ewww. I know how much you two love your chinese food. <<Did you hear this story already?>>: Lets just say I wrote my own once or twice.

Sevarius Jr: <<From where I stand, it’s really quite sad>>: I don't think its sad. When two people are together, they influence each other. Its showing up in lain too. <<I’ve had some (which is to say, a lot>>: LOL. <>: That wasn't funny.

Mooncat: <<Still waiting for digital vcrs with hard drives like floppies>>: Hard drives will never be as cheap as floppies, but a good investment might be to put a TV card in your computer and wire the cable to that. Then you can record directly onto your computer's HD's and swap those out fairly easily.

Spacebabe: <>: Spacebabie.com? <<What about chocolate mousse and whipped cream?>>: Well chocolate whipped cream is effectively a combination of both. But mousse by itself is not a good body topping, I don't think. It really has to be spread on with a knife. <>: It is. But apparently *he's* hotter than FPJ. <<What??? Are you feeling allright?>>: Quite, thanks. <>: Gee, thanks for that lovely image.

Wolfmoons_shadow: <<if anyone else ever noticed that if demona had cast the spell that would destroy the third race she would have also died>>: It only destroys people with fay blood, to my understanding. Not all magic users. Otherwise, she'd have killed Angela, who was training with her.

Selanit: <>: You'll have to forgive me; I *always* answer that question with that word. <<typing an annoyed, specious response takes just as long as a brief, useful one like>>: Does not! <<So why not do the brief useful one?>>: Because being sarcastic is a lot more fun. <<You could even save it to a text file then copy/paste each time The Question gets asked>>: Oh sure, *that* would save a lot of time.

Lain: <<what study? wheres THAT sposed to fit in?>>: Oh, quit yer bitchin'. Its a liberal arts test, you'll probably finish it in 45 minutes anyway.

Good god I'm tired.

And, for Impfac:

I just don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die.
-Mr. Garrison, South Park

Josh "Imzadi" Wurzel - [@kicktothenuts.com]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Saturday, April 13, 2002 03:33:28 AM
IP: 64.161.25.161

y'know what sucks?

i had my last class on thursday.
i worked tonight.
im working on saturday/night
im working on sunday
my first exam is sunday night, from 7 to 10pm

what study? wheres THAT sposed to fit in?

THATS what sucks :P

*grouches off into the corner*
lain
the Great White North
Friday, April 12, 2002 10:57:58 PM
IP: 64.228.204.170

Has anyone ever been on a 12 mile ruck march? Well I don't recomend it. I feel like I can hardly walk.

DPH- B5 quote: "Truth"

Christine- Gotta love the rain in WA. When does the nicer weather show up I wonder.

Well I gotta run.
Later.
Jaden - [jaden1444@aol.com]
Friday, April 12, 2002 10:52:30 PM
IP: 172.191.129.194

Hi! everyone Did you have a nice week.
Anonymous
Friday, April 12, 2002 08:01:36 PM
IP: 152.163.205.71

Space Babie> LOL!! Sorry, that was me :). I have no clue why I put your name in where my name goes (I was replying to you, by the way). It didn't occur to me. Sorry!! Oh gosh, I am so embarressed now 8P.
metaldemon
Friday, April 12, 2002 05:32:38 PM
IP: 24.219.166.91

Hmm, my last post seems to have inspired quite a few people to post things saying "It's not dead!"

I'm glad to hear it; I didn't really think it was. I was mostly annoyed about the unhelpful answers I'd gotten from the first inquiry, which were "Never" and "You asked the forbidden question."

I can appreciate the fact that the question gets asked a lot, and I know it gets annoying. But typing an annoyed, specious response takes just as long as a brief, useful one like "Not sure, but they're working on it, really!" So why not do the brief useful one? You could even save it to a text file then copy/paste each time The Question gets asked.

So anyway. To all of you who responded helpfully after my rather provocative post (by my count, those people are Lynati via email, DPH, Todd Jensen, and Mooncat), thanks! I appreciate your answers.

Mooncat> "Gargoyles New Legends" sounds interesting. Do you have a site for it yet, or is it still nascent? I see that the Admin's wrath has apparently struck down a conversation about adult-oriented fics; I don't know if this is related to that, but if it is, feel free to email me instead of posting here.
Selanit - [public@atuan.com]
Friday, April 12, 2002 05:01:53 PM
IP: 128.138.35.56

i was just wondering if anyone else ever noticed that if demona had cast the spell that would destroy the third race she would have also died. macbeth would have dies he dabbled in magic and it would have been by her hand....thus she killed him. or rather she kills the weird sisters and thus none of their power is expended any longer to keep her immortal.

or do i just have way too much time on my hands?
wolfmoons_shadow - [wolfmoons_shadow@yahoo.com]
anaheim, ca, usa
Friday, April 12, 2002 04:49:53 PM
IP: 199.182.112.121

wow.. whats with all the posting to me?!
*feels special*
:D

moonkitty>> <<Popular belief to the contrary, I do read things other than porn with great delight.>> really? coulda fooled me.. :P <<Gimmee story!>> yes m. soon as i get myself organized.. <<It is so fantastic *^_^*>> yes, yes it is.. you should see my music video. it still needs some work but i want to enter it at akon. <<and I keep trying for the CD, but I always show up late and what copies they have get snatched up. Sigh...>> thats what *ebay* is for.. oh sweet ebay, where my sexy boyfriend got me a copy of the noir soundtrack for 7 dollars.. mmmmmmm.. yummy.. oh hey look, i found you a copy for 6.99$ on ebay. fancy that! am i good or what? ;) its the same seller gunjack got MINE from. therefore i deem she is good cos it worked out SWIMMINGLY for me :D

spacebabie>> <<And now you know the story.>> well.. not quite but close enough! im still giggling about it so it was good :D
anyway, thought youd like some background on the word "eh?"

"in canada, the national shibboleth is as elemental as the first letter of the alphabet, as ineffable as an autumn rain, as elusive as a summer sigh. in a word: "eh?"
eh? is what separates canadians from the unwashed, envious hordes outside their national boundaries. (you know who you are.) eh? is the secret password, the cross-canada countersign, a two-letter, single-syllable symphony that takes years of dilligent study to master. it must flow naturally into the sentence. it must never stand out, never call attention to itself - and yet must remain inextricably linked to the harmonious whole. it should trip melodiously off the tongue. "howzit goin', eh?"
canadas multilayered, contextual use of eh? is often compared to the american use of huh? this is erroneous. americans dont have what it takes to wield an eh?. that may sound harsh, but it is true. the authors of the book have a whole slew of thick-tongued, slack-jawed american cousins who have never mastered the intricacies of end consonants. simple sentances like "that was priddy good, eh?" come out as one extended vowel movement: "thaa wuh raal guh, huh?"
to make matters worse, for one (blessedly brief) moment, canadian comedians rick moranis and dave thomas, in their canuck-caracature roles of bob 'n' doug mckenzie, were bug hits south of the border. you may remember bob 'n' doug; they had a segment on sctv called "great white north" which mainly involved them sitting around in touques and parkas, drinking beer and saying things like "take off, eh?" many canadians took this for a documentary.
bob 'n' doug were, however, inexplicably popular in the united states and so, for one (painfully long) summer, the authors of this book had to endure their american cousins imitating bob 'n' doug in an apparent effort to blend in with the rustics. it didnt work. americans simply cannot speak canadian. their "eh?"s always came out too nasally, too loud and too self-conscious. (so, how is it going... AYE?" as opposed to "howzit goin, eh?") if the us and canada ever went to war, the difference is going to come in very handy. "you wouldnt happen to be a spy now, would'ja?" "who me? no way.. AYE..?" *sound of gunfire, followed by a dying gasp* "huuuuuuh?""
- "how to be canadian" (again)
lain - [<< hey look! its mooncats noir soundtrack for 6.99$!! ]
Friday, April 12, 2002 04:44:47 PM
IP: 64.228.204.170

Jan and Josh> You're welcome!! I'm glad that that helps people out a little bit at least. ^_^;;;
Siryn - [gatheringofgargoyles@yahoo.com]
Friday, April 12, 2002 02:22:44 PM
IP: 129.21.153.75

Hey, all!

Remember last summer at the Gathering, I commissioned 3 pics from artist David Wong? Well, they are finally here and they are bleeping gorgeous!

Those of you who've been craving a Godiva fix, your wait is over but make sure you have your drool buckets handy (warning, there's some nudity, but given it's Godiva we'll just file that under 'd' for 'duh' <g>).

The others are elf-women from the world of my novels -- Kyra Ro'Sallin, current owner of the Lord's Retreat, and Kai Tilanne, my favorite kick-ass Morvalan star of the next book. Quite accurate looks at them, except a tad on the busty side ; )

Click and see! Or go to http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/new_stuff.html

Christine - [<------ piccy clicky!!!]
Friday, April 12, 2002 02:08:01 PM
IP: 67.226.47.182

Hey I have a clone.

Doppleganger you do not want to be me...trust me I'm me and it sucks. If your gonna try to be someone try to be someone cool like an Administrator.
Spacebabie
Friday, April 12, 2002 01:47:38 PM
IP: 67.25.52.181

Uhhh, that would be the sun also rises 8P.

Hehe, the joke I heard about Canada is as follows:
Some Spanish explorers were venturing into what is now known as Canada. Well when they arrived, the first thing they said was,
" 'ca nada"
which is short for "pa'ca nada," which translates to "nothing is over here." 8D
Space Babie
Friday, April 12, 2002 01:25:36 PM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Whoo hoo I may be getting my own domain. I'm already halfway done with my paper.

Yesterday we saw Madonna's video "Take a bow" In class.The reason cause it was very close to The Sun Also Sets by Hemmingway. Madonna is Lady Bret Ashley

A Joke for Lain
On my last trip to Canada, I had the rare pleasure of meeting the
leading historian of this great country. Out of curiosity I asked him
how their county got it's name.

Below is his explanation...

There were three explorers, hiking through what is now known as
Canada.

"You know," said the first explorer, "we should name this place we're
hiking through."

"I agree," said the second explorer.

"Great idea" quipped the third explorer.

"We'll each pick a letter and then make a name out of that."

"Okay," said the third, "I'll go first. C, eh."

The second said, "N, eh."

The first... "D, eh."

And now you know the story.

Replies
Rose/Lee>>>GO AWAY!

Josh<<>>Get some Ban De Solei<<<Now *that* I have comments for.>>>I knew you would.<<<Chocolate whipped cream goes better.>>>What about chocolate mousse and whipped cream?<<<Maybe he'll get to marry Sarah Michelle Gellar instead.>>>I thought that’s what you wanted to do<<>>Or this person has her head buried in the sand .<<<They have the IQ of a peanut.>>>That’s an insult to peanuts<<<How could SJ *ever* imply such a thing?>>>Cause we know and love that boy.<<<Eh, I'll post tomorrow. Not much to say, anyway>>> What??? Are you feeling allright??? Somebody get on the horn with him. He isn’t well.

Selanit<<<Okay, I'll stop checking the page. Thanks for letting me know. Too bad about its demise. :-( >>>Its still going. Jeez someone needs to teach you about sarchasm

Aaron>>>Good joke.

Shadowrider>>>::Gives him a caramel kiss:: It’s been a while since we chatted. Lets stop all this fussing and a fueding and talk about why Sata rocks or how your day was.

Winter Wolf<<<Then I was uncomfortable for a while until my stomach did it's digesting magic>>>Your tummy is stronger than mine. I would have thrown it up, or it might have shot out the back end.

Mooncat <<<Right now I'm stressing because I'm juggling schedules to make the Gathering.>>> Do you need a rommie? I won’t mind bunking with you.
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Friday, April 12, 2002 12:36:59 PM
IP: 67.25.52.181

Hiya Lain, sorry to reply to this so late, I use the "find" function on my web browser too much, and had forgot to check for moonkitty, eep!!!

Lain -- <<moonkitty>> if yer gettin all garg-deprived.. im working on a story i could send you for some reading over..>>

Oh! Yes, please *^_^*

<<if you wanted. theres no lesbian porn.. or lesbian bondage porn.. or semi-incestuous lesbian porn.. or even any hetero porn.. nope, theres no porn at all.. you might not be able to manage reading through just boring plot stuff.. so if you dont want to, i TOTALLY understand.. :P it is kind of.. um.. violent though.. with the mass genocide and the wing-ripping and the mercenary shooting and.. well.. yeah.. maybe even enough to make up for the lack of porn? ;) >>

Sounds like fun *^_^* Yes I'd love to read it. Popular belief to the contrary, I do read things other than porn with great delight. Gimmee story!

<<and youre going to akon? *I* might be going to akon.. if i can afford the ticket there and can afford to spare the time, that is.. schpiff! >>

Cool beans *^_^* Let me know and we'll try to find a way to hook up if you go.

Saw your comment on Noir. It is so fantastic *^_^* -- the music is sooooo good. I have to get the sound track. Asylum Anime likes to show up at our local anime club meetings every few months, and I keep trying for the CD, but I always show up late and what copies they have get snatched up. Sigh...

Right now I'm stressing because I'm juggling schedules to make the Gathering. If I go, I'll also be doing a stop over at a girlfriend's who moved to VA last year, which means possibly going to the con via one air port near the hotel, then leaving from the air port nearest her. It also means getting someone to feed and water my cats while I'm gone for a week, and getting plane tickets that will allow departure and arrival times that still allow me to be here to take care of filling my mother's weekly pill box, and seeing that she has someone to look in on her while I'm gone as well.

stress... stress...

I also wanted to put together some art for the art show, but don't think there will be time =( agh! ...stresses again...

Well, back to work. Decided to move all the bookcases downstairs upstairs, and get a few new ones, so that all my videotapes will be in one place. Yes, I have a massive collection. If I like a show, I try to save it both for possible fan fic ref, and in case I just want to watch it after it goes off the air and can't get to it anymore. Learned my lesson with cartoons in the 1980s, that some things come, go, and never are seen from again. And then are h*ll trying to get copies of a mere 15 years later. heh.

I should probably wipe all my Babylon 5 tapes though, and wait for a DVD compilation. I don't have a complete set, and they are scattered far and wide mixed with other shows that don't have as major a fan base. *ponders the long, non-ending task of sorting shows tapes and the virtue of having single series sets vs the resolution reduction in the re copied sets* gah...

Still waiting for digital vcrs with hard drives like floppies that you can trade out and replace easily and cheaply.

later
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Friday, April 12, 2002 12:16:33 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Eh, I'll post tomorrow. Not much to say, anyway.
Josh
Friday, April 12, 2002 02:51:22 AM
IP: 64.161.25.161

Not much time for a full post tonight.

Gunjack: <<You seem to have this weird superstition that canadians can rewrite people's brains or something.>> No, just yours. Which brings me to the next point: <<It's actually quite amusing.>> From where I stand, it’s really quite sad.

<<Short version. American Law, International Law, and every police and law-enforcement agency in the US or Europe beg to differ.>>

I’m sorry, you don’t quite know what you’re talking about.

I say that only because I’ve had some (which is to say, a lot) of education on law enforcement, and what I said about the use of force generally applies. Naturally, they don’t encourage you to go out and shoot anyone, that’s a given. Many cops consider it an honor to never have to draw their weapons on the job, and rightfully so. But if there’s a case like that of Diallo – where there’s a perceived threat, even if it’s just based upon SUSPICION – you’d better pray you’re not in the line of fire.

<<Not only do you assume that ANYONE (including women in labor and small children) should be assumed guilty until proven innocent, but you also advocate the use of lethal force on the basis of mere suspicion (would the technical term be "probable cause?).>>

Interesting postscript after you had posted this message – a Palestinian CHILD suicide bombed several Israelis. Israeli soldiers, if I remember correctly. They probably did NOT assume he was guilty of anything, until he detonated the explosive.

Read above paragraph as far as suspicion goes. Of course, even if cops suspect a weapon, that doesn’t always mean they will shoot (in this country, I should qualify my statement as such), but if it appears the suspect is going for that weapon (even if the weapon is perceived), than it’s not a surprise for a cop to use lethal force. It’s certainly not uncommon.

<<If you excercised these tactics on an American street, you would spend the rest of your life avoiding gang-rape in the showers of one of our fine federal institutions.>>

Not necessarily. It depends upon the circumstances. But as I said before, the mentality is that it’s better to be convicted, and yeah, maybe gang-raped by the folks from Oz, than to be six feet under in the ground because you weren’t “cautious” (read that as “excessive” if you want) enough.

Metaldemon: <<Neither Gunjack, Lain, or shadowrider are condemning Jews; they are condemning the actions of Israel and hae said repeatedly that they don't support Palestine.>> I don’t think they’re condemning Jews. Well, maybe Shadowrider. I just threw out that label, “anti-Semite”, because SR had labeled me a racist. I thought hey, if we’re gonna call each other names, might as well get mine in too.

Oh, and this one is for Shadowrider: I rented Roots today, and played it in reverse so I could see the happy ending. *rimshot* Thank you, tickets go on sale in Vegas this weekend. The entire act is in blackface, BTW, hope you enjoy it.

And since we’re so into speaking Italian, mordalo.

Since I’m speaking in tongues tonight (or trying to), this, to Mooncat: Siete forse il più triste, il più solo, la maggior parte della donna pathetic di che ho venuto a contatto mai. Pity I voi.

Greg: Yeesh, maybe you’ll yell at me for this post. BUT for what it’s worth, when I was yelling at Mooncat, it wasn’t because of porn.

Sevarius Jr. - [sevariusjr@godwheel.com]
Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:58:57 PM
IP: 207.172.11.147

Mooncat > I love writing horror and have done 3 novels to date. When it comes to short stories, I do fine when I have a directed project, like an anthology looking for something specific (such as the zombies), but I have a very hard time writing a short story on its own accord. My mind just isn't trained that way. This is why I have 80+ fanfics in a continuing series ... there's always gotta be a sequel ; )

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:28:04 PM
IP: 67.226.47.117

Here's my e-mail address.
Greg Bishansky - [madoc55@hotmail.com]
Thursday, April 11, 2002 10:10:52 PM
IP: 216.179.5.167

Greg B> may I have your TGS Admin email address, please? I cannot get to any of the other pages to look it up at this time.
Thanks
Jan
Thursday, April 11, 2002 10:03:11 PM
IP: 12.110.236.137

Hey gang!

Been a while since I posted and with Scarborough Faire starting up this weekend I kinda doubt I'll be posting much in the near future. If you are coming to Scarby, you can find me in the blacksmith shoppe.

QUICK POINTLESS MOVIE COMMENT:
Something of interest to DVD owners. Pick up this month's copy of Total Movie and Entertainment. It's a great movie magazie that includes a DVD with each issue. It's got some movie trailers and short films on one side of the disc, and a feature film on the other. The latest issue features "Omaha (the movie)" It's this odd indie comedy about a guy, his dominatrix hairstlist girlfriend, some sacred Bhuddist Emeralds, and a band of roving kickboxers from Iowa. Weirder than Kevin Smith and funny as hell. Worth the cost of the magazine.

Just had to share that, anyway I shall probably not be around much till after Scarborough. Type to you then...

Skippy The Klingon
Thursday, April 11, 2002 09:47:07 PM
IP: 209.245.243.77

There was a bunch of stuff I wanted to reply to... and now I can't find it :( so tired...

CONFLICT>> I have a mixed opinion, which I am wuss enough that I will not state.

Josh, DPH, Winterwolf>> Thanks
Spacebabie>> no problem, cupcakes are fun.

Patrick Toman>> <And there's a town in Pennsylvania called Intercourse, but I still don't want to move there. :P > hey! I happen to like Pennsylvania!

Destruction of the last tea table (whoever said it)>> My cupcakes!!

Stephen>> happy birthday

Christine>> <Zombies make honey, and zombies don't. > that was a painful joke :)

DPH>> <Reread the book of Revelations from the Bible. > which is why I'm not concerned about the human race being wiped out by nuclear devestation.

God bless!
Daphne
Thursday, April 11, 2002 09:07:24 PM
IP: 129.68.10.47

Hmm. Pics aren't loading. TGS site must be down.
Leo
Thursday, April 11, 2002 09:06:13 PM
IP: 172.135.133.37

Greg Terry did that to you and all of you I told him at school not to do that to you as you can see he did not care. The only thing to do is find him that's all I can say.
Lady Ray
Thursday, April 11, 2002 08:45:45 PM
IP: 64.12.103.26

**We pause Battling Seizure Robots for this post from Winterwolf**

Hi everybody. Went to the Moon Temple last night. It's a Chinese restaurant. The food was good up until my body realized that there was too much oil/grease from the food in my system. Then I was uncomfortable for a while until my stomach did it's digesting magic. Interestingly I actually didn't feel hungry 30 minutes later! Hey I thought I had Chinese! ;P

Ravyn> Thanks for the birthday and other best wishes ^_^ <supervisor is quitting at work, so starting in two weeks, I get to take over her spot ... but I don't get any of the benefits or pay> That sucks. Last time I had to deal with a similar work situation the company went belly up so I didn't have long to worry about it. Hope you figure out what works best for you. Personally I think you have them in a pretty good position to renegotiate. You're worth it! :) **HUG** Best wishes on getting it worked out and the evil schoolwork too. <jealous> **HUG** Anywho, you'll get your own time with Coyote soon I imagine. ^_^

Shadowrider> So what have you been up to lately? ;) <Sometimes I'd really love to be like those who can just insulate themselves from the world and mind just to their things and to nothing else> Ignorance is bliss eh? It sounds a too self centered existence for me.

Daphne> Happy Belated Birthday! Hope you had a blast!

Lady Mystic> Congrats on getting the job!

Good reading. I especially liked the Middle East posts by SJ, Josh, GXB, Aaron and Green Baron. I don't condone everything that Israelis have done but I support them.

Aaron> Where did seven go? ;)

Stephen> Happy Birthday! Have a good one!

Josh> <<It was a fairly low-key day at least up until the cake>>: Which somehow ended up all over Dreamie's body, right?> Did you hear this story already? ^_~

Dreamie> <pounce, snuggles, nuzzles, kisses> I love you! If only you didn't have so many school assignments (one every day this week) along with two late night labs. (9:30 PM finish on Wednesdays and 7:30 PM finish on Thursdays) I'll be making something special just for you tonight. ^_^

I agree with Ravyn. There is no need to move into personal flaming. I see GXB has already nipped it in the bud now.

**Winterwolf goes and sit at the Tea Table of Peace to have tea and cookies**

Well I'm off to make dinner. Bye everybody.

**We now return you to Battling Seizure Robots**

Winterwolf
Seattle, WA
Thursday, April 11, 2002 08:10:31 PM
IP: 12.231.21.127

On to replies!

Josh>><<So what is GE doing, then?>>Designing the reactors, I imagine. As well as the generation systems. Click on my name for a page on the Black & Veatch website that talks about it more. I'm assuming the Taiwan project you are referring to is the Lungman plant. Unless they're building *two* plants concurrently. <>You can be a civil engineer w/o it, and that's what it says on the diploma. <<I'm trying to avoid taking it.>> I actually can't wait to take it. I like steel design. Not 'til spring, tho. <<Steel, timber, reinforced concrete, and something else?>>Matrix structural analysis is a structural class. Since I'll have an extra semester, I'll probably take some graduate courses. Or maybe a metallurgy class. The materials class here is very weak on steel.
Yooper
MI
Thursday, April 11, 2002 07:19:43 PM
IP: 141.219.84.191

Impfac-- <<MC/Porn debate> She’s THE QUEEN of porn, remember?>>

No, that's Angel of the Night. Remember? We hashed out titles in the adult CR. I get the title of King, which kind of puts me in drag, but since I get a harem and all the other goodies that go with the title, am not inclined to complain.

<<I’ve learned NEVER to say anything remotely critical of her fic-she’ll just say it’s snarky and personal and what not.>>

If the shoe fits... I really have no problem with a thought out critique. I run my fic through various betas, and some are quite harsh, but also very detailed on what was wrong, why it was wrong, and how it could be fixed. I value those betas beyond jewels.

However uninformative derogatory comments from people who go out of their way to express dislike for me in many other venues, usually put in the 'snark' file. *shrugs*

Well back to work,
later
MC
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Thursday, April 11, 2002 05:16:35 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

::looks around and spots DisHarmony still hanging around.::

Don't bad we can't ban DisHarmony from entering the room.

::Pulls out a water gun and fires at both Lain and Jan, attempting to cool things off.::

Wait a minute, I have a better idea.

::Goes off to activate all the sprinkler systems in the CR.::

Selanit - TGS is not D-E-A-D. It might be on life-support, but NOT dead. Timedancer season 4 will come out.

Imzadi - <You know, you admins take all the fun out of a good flame war.> I don't like to wear fire resisent clothing in the CR. <any software that should work instead "could" work> I thought everybody understood that fact.

Happy belated birthday to both Stephen, Christine, and anyone else I've forgotten.

Ghost of Reverend Attila - <Of course, the violence needs to be stopped, and I fear war is inevitable.> Reread the book of Revelations from the Bible.

I alright I finally caught up with the CR posts.
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, April 11, 2002 05:05:48 PM
IP: 204.94.193.66

Flames> Really, as basically an outside to this room, it is horrible. MC flames Jan, Lain flames Jan, MC flames SJ, SJ flames MC, etc etc etc etc to infinity. I mean, don’t you people ever stop??? I love to flame, but I have my cutoff points.

Women at that time of the month should be kind enough not to post-even look-at the CR until they’ve regained their balance. Than again, judging from the posts, it seems many of you ONLY post at that time.

Josh> Israeli Air force: What good is an air force if you have nothing to defend? If the Arabs got their hands on a nuclear weapon (and their is substantial evidence that many Arab nations/group have an interest in helping Iraq do just this) Israel would be destroyed. All the wondrous (and remarkably brave) Israeli fighters and pilots in the world could do nothing.

A massive land invasion has the same objective.

On the other hand, Israel has had nuclear weapons for years-it is one of the things that has kept the hoards at bay. That is awfully polite to me, for a nation that the media portrays as equally savage to the terrorists it is trying to stop...

MC/Porn debate> She’s THE QUEEN of porn, remember? I’ve learned NEVER to say anything remotely critical of her fic-she’ll just say it’s snarky and personal and what not. Same with labeling people racists (or homophobic, or whatever advances her arguments).

*shrugs* Not replying is your best option, really.

Actually, everyone here could use a lesson in this...

IMPFAC - [impfac@yahoo.com]
Thursday, April 11, 2002 04:58:36 PM
IP: 169.226.230.45

Good evening, CR.

So, the discussions are going on, apparently...and, apparently, someone found nothing better to say than implying me to be anti-Semitic. Hmmm...interesting. I feel no actual need even to answer to this. But, I must say, this person did me a favor, by confirming in just a couple phrases many of the points I had previously expressed.

In spite of this, I must notice how the actual point of my previous long post was not apparently received by those to which it *was* directed to. My fault, probably...I was supposed to express myself in a more clear way. Very well...I'll do it now.

To the Admins of the CR:> As I have already pointed out, some days ago a member of the CR posted a huge amount of what can be easily defined racist propaganda. Among the other things, this person treated several hundred millions of human beings as animals and vermin, just for the fact they happened to be part of an ethnical group or a religion. The same person eventually invoked a complete extermination of the same persons, again for the mere fact they happened to be part of an ethnic group or a religion. As I already said, I was expecting this person to be at least warned for such things, but it didn't happen. Now, and premised that, even if I usually avoid taking part in political discussions in the CR, I have nothing against RL problems, politics included, to be discussed and debated in the CR (and, in fact, I said nothing about the ongoing Israelian-Palestinian discussion, as long as the spreading of racist hate made me feel compelled to intervene), my question to all the Admins of this Comment Room is what follows: Is, for you, all right that a CR member can make racist propaganda and spread hate against a racial group into here? If the answer (as it appears, I must add) is "yes", I invite you to remove the Rules page from the CR informations; if, in fact, invoking "Final Solutions" for a whole ethnic group is NOT a wrong thing in this CR, I cannot see how insulting a single person can be wrong at all. If, instead, (as I hope) the answer is "no", I invite you to take the proper actions against the responsible of such an act, and to do what is possible to avoid that such things can repeat in future.
Naturally, if nothing of what is written above will happen, the only possible conclusion will be that the rules of this CR DO exist, but are not applied in the same way for all of the members...something I always refused even to consider, but that now I really cannot help to be at least doubtful about. I will confidently wait for an answer.

Sevarius Jr.:>

"Voi che vivete sicuri
Nelle vostre tiepide case,
Voi che trovate tornando a sera
Il cibo caldo e visi amici:
Considerate se questo è un uomo
Che lavora nel fango
Che non conosce pace
Che lotta per mezzo pane
Che muore per un sì o per un no.
Considerate se questa è una donna
Senza capelli e senza nome
Senza più forza di ricordare
Vuoti gli occhi e freddo il grembo
Come una rana d'inverno.
Meditate che questo è stato:
Vi comando queste parole.
Scolpitele nel vostro cuore
Stando in casa andando per via,
Coricandovi alzandovi;
Ripetetele ai vostri figli.
O vi si sfaccia la casa,
La malattia vi impedisca,
I vostri nati torcano il viso da voi." (P. Levi)

Josh:> <<Personally, I think there are worse ways to discover that.>> Yes, of course. In fact what I was implying was: "Some people discovered the same thing in far far worse ways". Probably, my looking for a more concise phrasing made the meanining more cryptic. My fault.
<<Oh sure, forget all about me. >> I am sure it just slipped out of her mind. Except, naturally, if she did thank you in a more...intimate...way...;-)

Jan:> <<<<Yes, if only I could induce myself in thinking that way, my life would be easier>> I don’t see that as being realistic or even creative. >> Neither I...in fact, as you probably figured, I was being sarcastic there...in spite of the stress you mention (you are quite right in saying that, I must admit...) ;), I really prefer being one of those who always question, and put in doubt everything cannot be demonstrated, rather than allowing myself even for a single moment to stop thinking and to lay down on pre-built, confortable "truths". Like someone said, "Sleep of reason generates monsters"...and History shows us innumerable examples of it. About the admins, well, I share your suspects...but, I cannot pass over such a thing. I consider myself very tolerant, but there are things I rally cannot accept, and racist propaganda is one of these...I'd really love not to desturb the peace of the CR, but my conscience doesn't allow me to remain silent. We'll see how it will end. Oh, I will try to send you a new MP3 this weekend...maybe I found a way, but it will take some time to send the file, so I won't be able to try before Saturday.

That is all for tonight. I am sorry for the desturbance I am taking in the CR, but I feel that on this thing must be done clarity, once and for all. Good night.

"Io sono come Dio / E gli uomini li rifarei / Come ora / Occhi per non vedere / Bocche per non parlare / Meglio così"

"Se la terra è tonda / E se il mare è blu / Da che mondo è mondo / Il forte vince e non sei tu"

"Nessuno salvò nessuno con la spada"
Shadowrider - [shdwrdr@tiscali.it]
Thursday, April 11, 2002 04:05:32 PM
IP: 62.10.20.223

Warpmind -- Patience is the Dark Jedi. *^_^* Yes, got your reply. Always happy to be invited to read and review. I'm still not sure how good my review skills are, but it's always fun to read a decent horror/hentai story. The site itself is pretty interesting and I'm browsing through the other authors too. Maybe I'll submit something of my own in the future.

Christine -- *lol* I'll try. It's easier to simmer when others quit adding flame. Kudos to the admin for just quashing the the whole fire fight.

All Flesh to be a movie? Cool beans! *^_^* Since seeing Resident Evil, I've been craving more of that kind of fun horror. Will watch for the DVD.

Will you be doing any more of that kind of fiction? You would be great at doing a whole horror anthology yourself. You have the zombi fic, that delicious vampire fic, and from your garg fic you've shown a fantastic flair for other brands of horror. I'd love to just read an anthology by you covering all the horror staples. It would be fun.

Well, have tax checks to send out, half a house to super clean (did the other half yesterday) and writing to get back to.

later all
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Thursday, April 11, 2002 03:38:42 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

*Warpmind strolls in, humming the "Jaws" theme...*
Mmmhehehe... Finally, the characters for my GURPS IOU game on Saturday are all ready... *Insane giggle* A grand tour of the premises, generously provided for a fugitive alien, an Ellyl, a fencer with the skill and sanity of a certain Tatewaki Kuno, a Secret Service agent, a wandering skeleton and a monk with True Faith... *Smirk* This will become INTERESTING, provided the players get properly into character. (Yes, I'm being evil. One of the perks of GM'ing, no?)

Anyway, catch-up.

Mooncat: Oh, got your feedback. Did you get my reply? :)

Gside: I suspected that was an unintentional one; tsk, you're losing it, buddy. ;)

Josh: Knowing Gside, the odds of him not looking at what he typed before posting in THAT case, is likely very high. If he makes a deliberate double entendre, it is usually subtler. ;)

Hmmm... I seem to be on a list of *seemingly* good writers... *Ponder* Well, it does ring true... I *have* after all received requests for more stories, of any and all sorts... *Smirk* Right, Mooncat? };) I should be honored, I guess... :)

Well, that's about what I'll respond to today, as I'm supposed to be busy packing for going off to a gaming con. YAY! :) See y'all over the weekend, I guess.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@hotmail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Thursday, April 11, 2002 02:59:59 PM
IP: 193.217.202.36

They let us back into the country, huzzah!

Had a nice time in B.C., lunched at Lonsdale Quay on bakery goodies and smoked salmon jerky, went to the Vancouver Aquarium in the rain, strolled Gastown, dined at a place called The Olde Baliff (yum!), stayed in a downtown building with really pretty views at night though the floor-to-ceiling windows triggered mild acrophobia in us, swam and soaked in the hot tub, and only spent 20 minutes snarled in confusing traffic.

We also were able to get our hands on two of the Puzz-3D Aerie Building sets, so those should be going up for sale soon.

Mom left this morning early, so now things can go back to normal. Got errands to run, a house to clean, Becca and I need haircuts, all that mundane stuff.

Stephen > happy birthday a bit late!

Mooncat > simmer down, huh?

Some interesting news > All Flesh Must Be Eaten (the zombie game) is going to be made into a movie! Watch for "Walking With The Dead," coming to DVD in late 2003. Click the link below for more info.

Speaking of which ...

Knock-knock.
Who's there?
Zombies.
Zombies who?
Zombies make honey, and zombies don't.

That was on a dixie cup I got at an Easter event, of all things ... odd coincidence!

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:51:06 PM
IP: 67.226.47.45

Somebody passed this to me, and I know at least SJ will think it's funny... Mind you, it is a totally un-PC call for ethnic cleansing, so be forwarned.

Three men are sitting on a bench. One's a Texan wearing a Stetson, one's a muslim wearing a turban, and the last is an apache with an eagle feather woven in his hair.

The Indian is rather glum and says "Once my people were many, but now we are few."

The Muslim puffs up and says "Once my people were few, but now we are many millions."

The Texan adjusts his hat, finishes rolling a smoke, leans back, and drawls, "That's 'cause we ain't played cowboys 'n muslims yet."

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:33:07 AM
IP: 209.33.140.101

SELANIT - We're working on it, we really are! It's just that, lately, about 95% of the staff has been so bogged down by RL issues (as in school and work) that we've barely had any time for several months for Breakdowns, Writing, or Editing, so things are way behind schedule. But we're struggling with it as hard as we can. We'll see about getting stories up soon. It's just that we don't have as much free time for TGS as we used to. We're sorry about the delay.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, April 11, 2002 06:58:41 AM
IP: 63.183.39.222

Selanit -- hi. Well, don't know if you are interested, but the premiere episode of Gargoyles New Legends may be in the near future. It's a brand new take off the tv series, but with a more adult audience, rated R theme. We have a loose three to five season storyline, and each with a separate story arc. Still working on the outlines of all first season episodes, but I think we have some pretty exciting stuff planned so far.

As for TGS, I don't think it's dead. If you check back regularly, when they do announce a new episode you will most likely hear about it here first.

well, 4:30 am my time, need to grab some sleep.

later
MC
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Thursday, April 11, 2002 05:29:09 AM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Greg/Admin -- Opps... Did that count as part of the dead topic? Since the focal point was that the previous comments were *not* about wether my fic was porn or not, does that count as part of the porn, pro/con debate? If it did, mucho appologies.

Respect to the Admin, I'll try not to bring up the for/against arguments about adult rated fictions. Is it still okay to make reference to erotic/adult garg fiction and art?

Be a shame if all mention/discussion of an entire section of fan fic get's placed under the dead topic ban. I'd abide, but I think that letting people know when we have a new ficcie ready it should be okay to make mention of.

bows to the admin.
Mooncat >^,,^<
Mooncat
Thursday, April 11, 2002 05:21:26 AM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Josh:
<<Do we have any idea when new TGS eps will be released?>>: <Never.>

Okay, I'll stop checking the page. Thanks for letting me know. Too bad about its demise. :-(

<<May I suggest a mailing list? You could sign up on the TGS
web page for notification when the series starts up again>>

<And then people would come in here and ask why they haven't
received an email about the new ep. So no, you may not
suggest that.>

On the contrary, I can and have suggested that. Of course, nobody has to pay any attention; and since it seems TGS is defunct, the point is moot anyway.

Sorry to have trespassed on your time.

Selanit - [public@atuan.com]
Thursday, April 11, 2002 05:08:24 AM
IP: 128.138.35.56

Josh <<Logically, if we would still insult you, then it has nothing to do with writing porn, so we don't have that mindset.>>

Which was the point I was trying to make, that you making derogatory comments about my writing wasn't based on it being 'porn' as Jan suggested, but because you personally don't like me. Her whole 'you deserve these kind of comments because you write porn' attitude was what I was trying to debunk. Since you say over and over how much you like porn, I knew your slamming me about my writing had nothing to do with it being porn. The content of my fiction was irrelevant as you just wanted a pretext to snark at me. I fully understand that.

<<Second, that is not my mindset, I don't think that everyone who writes porn is worthless, or a bad writer. I know because I've written it, and you know what my opinion
of myself is.>>

Never said it was your mindset. Just pointing out that Jan's reasoning that your comments about my writing being lame, etc was not because it was porn at all, but because you just wanted to insult me and the fact I write adult fiction with lesbian themes was all you had to work with at the time. Thank you for helping make that point quite clear.

Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Thursday, April 11, 2002 05:03:11 AM
IP: 65.30.27.68

I experimented with a nifty beta last night while writing my ethics paper. It's called Mariner Write, and when finished it will be a $50 competitor to Microsoft Word. I have to say, I'm very impressed. Vastly superior (though similar) interface, far more stable, and includes most of the features. One feature it lacks, noticeably, is auto-hyphenating. Sadly, this made me unable to write my paper, and I had to switch to Word. Appleworks just isn't good enough in X. Maybe when they re-write it in Cocoa it won't suck as much.

Did the same old boring class thing today. It's really nice to know that more than half of my paper is already finished, and still have two weeks to hand it in.

Tomorrow is the trip to Apple, so I'm really excited about that. I have no class after 11AM tomorrow!

Oh look, suicide bomber took out 8 people today. One yesterday killed seven more.

Kicked ass in my lab today, one less thing to do this week.

Talked to my mom, she wanted to know if I was paying attention to the Israel/Palenstine stuff. I told her about the arguments in the CR and she wasn't suprised by any of it. This shows that she is evolving. Used to be anyone who said anything anti-jewish was a target for her.

replies

Lila: <<What a lovely day! The sun was shining, the smog was barely there>>: Grrr. Wish I was in LA right now. This city sucks ass. <>: I don't tan, so I'd probably be inside the whole time, but at least it would be sunny. <>: Are you a med student? <<one of those "bvvvt CLEAR" devices>>: And you worry about pissing me off!? <<Ooh, a nuclear engineer. So you get to blow sh*t up all day?>>: No, that's a demolitions expert. My job is to make sure that *nothing* blows up, otherwise the planet is f*cked. <<I'll try to never *ever* piss YOU off>>: Usually a wise decision. I'm ugly when I'm angry. Uglier than normal, that is. <<Your Stewie quote>>: You're not gonna believe this, but that wasn't intentional. That was just the next quote in my rotation. Pure coincidence. <>: Eh, sorta. If I didn't, then I wouldn't graduate on time. So the question is: is waking up at 8AM worth it to avoid another semester's tuition and rent checks? <<NOTHING barring NOTHING could make me get up that early... well, maybe one or two things, but I'd complain heartily>>: Two years ago, my girlfriend tried to wake me up on my birthday, despite my insistence that I would NOT appreciate it. She did it anyway...and I dumped her shortly afterward. <<embody perfection and then we'll discuss it>>: Already done that. <<I'll ignore that...>>: But why? <<What an awful cow pun! We're really fixated on the mechanical bull thing, arn't we? Can't IMAGINE why>>: Actually no. The moo-genta comment refers to all really fat girls who play magenta. <<attendance would peak if classes were planned between the hours of noon and midnight>>: The problem is that if that were the case, people would be doing homework until 4 or 6 in the morning, and no one wants to do that.

Mooncat: <<rated G>>: Actually, the stuff I was recommending was mostly R-rated. I like R-ratings. <<I could write fics pure as the driven snow and you would still be out smear me if you saw a chance to do it. So please spare me the smug "gee you write porn, so it's perfectly okay for people to throw shit at you" mindset>>: Logically, if we would still insult you, then it has nothing to do with writing porn, so we don't have that mindset. Second, that is not my mindset, I don't think that everyone who writes porn is worthless, or a bad writer. I know because I've written it, and you know what my opinion of myself is.

Archwolf: <<You mean the stuff in your computer actually makes a difference?>>: Oh my god. Shoot them. <<We techies are admin on every school owned computer that we support>>: Ah, didn't realize it was a school computer. <<We are Root>>: Interesting tidbit of info: "Wurzel" means root in german. <<you are now an Egg Head>>: You know, in all my years as a geek, I've been called many derrogatory names...but never that. <<into the captain's testicles (ouch)>>: OWWWWW.

Metaldemon: <>: Hehe.

Spacebabie: <<while Josh and Co make comments about that>>: "Foamy"? Nothing to say, really. <<return, find white stuff all over bathroom>>: Now *that* I have comments for. <<not the good chocolate stuff you like to lick of your lover’s body>>: Chocolate whipped cream goes better. <<According to Tigerbeat he is hotter than Freddie Prinze jr>>: Maybe he'll get to marry Sarah Michelle Gellar instead. <<How about a snail addy?>>: Not yet. <<You mean lately or on a daily basis?>>: I also thought that sentence was rather redundant. <<Everyone call this number and report to Miss Willis’s parents that she is being a pain in the keister>>: I tried emailing her, but I got back "what are you talking about? My son is only 4 years old", so I think Mr. Admin over there might have provided me with some wrong info. <<Or post all their private information>>: That too. <>: That's not happening either. <<Do you know how hard it is to find a decent bra in my cup size?>>: Since I don't know what your cup size is, then no. <<Berkley??>>: Quite. <<maybe if you posted your name in the first place>>: Would we have responded any other way? <<what is it with you and this obsession with this comment room?>>: They have the IQ of a peanut. <<Are you saying that Gunjcak is Putty whipped by Lain?>>: How could SJ *ever* imply such a thing?

Rev. Attila: <<take off the bra and don a white t-shirt>>: Why don't you just tell her to take off her clothes outright? <<Try Amish>>: Ewwww. <>: I think that's a poor excuse, but it works. <<You are the weakest link...goodbye>>: Wish I'd been here for the flame wars over this guy. <<all teh pretty women think of me>>: I hope most pretty women don't spend their time thinking of pussy. If they do, we're in trouble.

Siryn: <<We called ahead and found shuttle services (with prices quoted) from each of the airports to the gathering!>>: Good job! I know that a major complaint of previous cons has been answered.

Lain: <>: Maybe not to me, but to Gunjack you are. <<then you came through and saw me as the whole woman i am, instead of fixating on my intellect and ability to argue logically>>: What do you want from me? Just think of me as slightly to the left of SJ, k? <<theres no lesbian porn.. or lesbian bondage porn.. or semi-incestuous lesbian porn.. or even any hetero porn.. nope, theres no porn at all>>: How would she survive!? <<it is kind of.. um.. violent though.. with the mass genocide and the wing-ripping and the mercenary shooting and.. well.. yeah.. maybe even enough to make up for the lack of porn?>>: Whoa cool! That stuff is in the fic I recommended to MC too 8-)

Jan: <<But oh yeah… you want to post about your art or your fics… some of us prefer dealing with the real world on occasion. Hmmm… let’s see… what’s more important??… world issues or cartoons? Give me a ‘sec to think about that one and I’ll get back to you>>: You forgot to tell her which one. Now I'm in suspense! <<Wouldn’t you be pleased (if you were catholic) to know that the money that you’ve given in support of the church has gone to compensate a child molester and to continue to support him and his deviant behaviors?>>: Its stuff like this that makes me laugh at religion as a whole. How can someone do this and still claim to be in service to god? <<which part of GO AWAY do you not seem to understand?>>: This is entertaining to them. <>: Hopefully the former. Because you will never be able to show your face in here again without being flamed if you marry your cousin. <<Mine has been reduced (by a 2nd accountant) to owing a measly $10,808>>: Every little bit helps.

Impfac: <<Israel could easily be wiped out>>: Obviously you've never read about the Israeli air force.

Greg X: You know, you admins take all the fun out of a good flame war.

Yooper: <<Feels nice to have tomorrow off!>>: Wish I had tomorrow off. Half day, though. <<Got my scheduling done Tuesday>>: I'm still working on mine. It's a bear. I have so many options, and no idea of what to do. I really want to take this grad class in computer aided engineering, but that would really throw a wrench into my schedule. Basically, it would force me to have classes only on tuesday and thursday (FOUR DAY WEEKEND!), but I'd have to be up at 8AM and I'd have classes most of the day. Not sure what to do. <<Picked up matrix structural analysis>>: I'm taking that next semester too. <<open channel flow>>: Took that last semester. It was alright. <<Couldn't take reinforced concrete design, which is taught by my boss. I was looking forward to that class>>: That is one of the design courses I'm considering. <<Congrats on your new job>>: Thanks, I'm stoked too. <>: So what is GE doing, then? <<We don't have to here at Michigan Tech either>>: I have a hard time understanding how anyone can say they're a structural engineer if they haven't taken steel. Then again, I'm trying to avoid taking it. <<all four structural technical electives>>: Steel, timber, reinforced concrete, and something else?

Okay, I need to read something for fun. Right now.

And now you see that evil will always win, because good is dumb.
-Dark Helmut (Rich Morranis), Spaceballs

Josh "Imzadi" Wurzel - [@kicktothenuts.com]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Thursday, April 11, 2002 02:14:17 AM
IP: 64.161.25.161

Ahhh. Feels nice to have tomorrow off! Well, from classes anyway. I've got a bunch of stuff to do for my job and a few assignments to do.

Got my scheduling done Tuesday. Picked up matrix structural analysis and open channel flow. Also got senior design project. Couldn't take reinforced concrete design, which is taught by my boss. I was looking forward to that class.

I don't feel to strongly on the Middle East situation myself. I think that we could cut the back and forth sniping on that, and complain about the French guy that wrote a book claiming a plane didn't really hit the Pentagon.

On to replies!

Jan>> <<child abuse>> That gave me the shivers just reading about it. I don't think I could ever deal with something like that on even a yearly basis, much less daily like some people have to. Not without putting a bullet in a perpetrator's head, anyway.

Josh>> Congrats on your new job. <<Taiwan nuclear plant>> I want to work for Black & Veatch, the civil firm designing the plant. I don't think the office I'd be in if I get the job (crosses fingers) has anything to do with that project, tho. <<Believe it or not, I don't have to take Steel Design to graduate>> We don't have to here at Michigan Tech either. We have a structures class where they cover the basics of steel and concrete, and all of the others are technical electives. I'm going for 4½ (years), so I'll try "hitting for the cycle" and take all four structural technical electives. Still have to fit in some from 3 other emphasis areas.

Later!
Yooper
MI
Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:03:39 AM
IP: 141.219.84.191

im very sorry greg, i didnt see your post until it was too late!
i forgot my colour AND my pic, too :P

no more posty on the subject sounds good to me.. its getting.. scary..

sorry again.
lain
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:38:18 PM
IP: 64.228.195.4

jan>> <<did I say who sent me that? Nope, I didn't. I didn't even hint who it was. If I wanted to say who it was, I would have>> did i say who sent the email either? no, i didnt. i merely stated some long-forgotten piece of its content... but i guess its rather obvious who sent it now, isnt it?

it was a deliberate jab, jammie, and you know it. and very, very childish.
another quote is coming to mind.. something about someone writing what they thought was a "normal" post.. now what was it? let me think now.. aaah yes "so her "norm" is to take pot-shots at people?"
now, which one of us did this apply to? my brain is getting so confused after all this time..

lain
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:05:51 PM
IP: 64.228.195.4

I forgot there was a reason I don't come here...
IMPFAC
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:59:53 PM
IP: 169.226.230.45

Okay, okay, Might as well step in. Damn you people for making me use this picture.

Okay, about the recent personal attacks being shot back and forth. CUT IT OUT! I don't care who did it first. Next person who does it gets banned. I don't care who it is.

And quite frankly, the whole erotica debate/war has just gotten so damn old. I don't care what anyone's personal opinion is on it, and it's been going on in here for years. It's the CR equivilent of the abortion debate. No one ever changes their mind, everyone thinks the other is an asshole. Those who like it are disgusting perverts, and those who don't are "holier than thou" prudes. Just ignore the others, and flame-bait won't be tolerated.

This topic is now dead. D-E-A-D. Dead. Not just now, but FOREVER!. Get it? Got it? Good!
Greg Bishansky
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:44:18 PM
IP: 216.179.6.190

Lain> did I say who sent me that? Nope, I didn't. I didn't even hint who it was. If I wanted to say who it was, I would have. I changed my mind about not saying anything about that in here. *shrugs*
It's irrelevent what else was said in the email - it had nothing to do with what was said about "cocky americans deserving the attack". It wasn't said once - it was said a few more times each in separate emails.

edited versions of the email?? *LOL* you wish. Why would I edit it? I had/have nothing to hide.

Mooncat> you betcha'. Whatever you say. *rolls eyes and walks away*
Jan
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:43:17 PM
IP: 12.110.237.28

jannie my darling>> <<and that the Sept 11 attacks were "maybe" justified>> at least this person had the courtesy of saying “maybe”. Think of what it’s like to be told that we “cocky Americans deserved the attack”…. AND be told this only a couple of days after 9-11….
AND from someone who lives in a “friendly” country….AND from someone one here in CR.>>
aaah this old subject again? havent you and sj grown out of this yet? i would have thought enought time would have passed to enable even YOUR brain to process what was actually said and what was meant by those words. you appear to have taken your favourite quote completely (as usual) out of context.
first of all, it wasnt "a couple of days" after, it was the day after, more precisely the day after at 2:33 pm. and you forgot the "I don't see HIM rushing out to the recruitment office, so he can "go get vengence." he's all about talking of revenge, but not about getting HIS little hands dirty. He has an open mouth and a closed brain, and it makes me furious! If we go to war, IM GOING TO BE THERE! And even if I wasn't ASSIGNED to go, I WOULD and WILL bloody-well VOLUNTEER to fight against the enemy who has done such a shockingly disgusting act" part.. but i guess thats to be expected. what do such trivial little things like that matter? its just another little detail you seem to have difficulty in processing.

if im not mistaken, i thought you didnt want to bring it up in here - but if youve changed your mind, im more than willing to discuss this.
if you havent, and youd rather go on and do it behind peoples backs, then i suggest you continue sending other peoples private emails, edited however you see fit, to whomever you desire.

as for me, im content in the truth.

yours,
lain
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:25:58 PM
IP: 64.228.195.4

**dons her flame-retardant racing fire jacket and helmet**

Hey, guys? While I've really appreciated the informative debates lately, especially on the Middle East situation, and enjoyed the ways each side has presented their arguments with different facts, personal stories, etc ... could we quit with the personal attacks, the attitude, and the drama please?

Please, I mean no offense to anyone ... I would just like to keep this place as *peaceful* (relatively) as it used to be, way back when when I first started posting here. We debated all sorts of crazy stuff then, but rarely were there the personal attacks, "you and your clique vs. mine" attitudes, etc... I'm hoping we could possibly return to that, and I don't mean any harm by this ... but it's just a thought ...

**sets out fresh cookies on the Tea Table of Peace** More later, after my crazy weekend working is over ...
Ravyn
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:23:59 PM
IP: 150.135.180.226

Jan <<As I recall, a while back some people were referring to you as the “next porn queen” of the fanfics or something to that effect and you embraced that title with pride and basked in the glory. However, now when someone makes a comment about your love/lust for porn, you get all bent out of shape.>>

I'm not bent out of shape about my liking or writing adult fan fiction. However when I ask for recommendations for Garg fic to read, and someone decides it's an invitation to personally slam my fiction I am a bit surprised. I write adult fan fiction, which you call porn, and I am pretty happy with it. However Josh meant his comments to be deliberately derogatory trying to use the fact I write adult fic as a smear by saying that all my (yes, he said outright that his comment was about my writing in specific) was lame lesbian porn. While lame may be his personal opinion, and he's welcome to it, the honest fact is that all my writing is not lesbian, nor is all of it adult / porn.

<<Either you’re proud of it or your not… I’m confused as to which one you are. As much as you rave about your porn fics, you are going to have the reputation that comes with being involved or associated with porn.>>

I'm proud to have authored all my stories. No confusion there. I'm not happy having you and your clique make take snarky pot shots at me whenever you think you can wiggle them in. No confusion there either. As for my "rep" for being involved with or associated with porn, what has that to do with the fact you, Josh, and SJ like to snark at me whenever you see an opening? I could write fics pure as the driven snow and you would still be out smear me if you saw a chance to do it. So please spare me the smug "gee you write porn, so it's perfectly okay for people to throw shit at you" mindset.

<<When Josh mentioned the “spell check porns” he was not necessarily referring to your fics. But, if you had actually read his post, you would have seen that. You attack first (and then still refuse to look at the facts even after they are pointed out to you numerous times), so I’m not surprised that you made your snide comments about something that didn’t even pertain to you.>>

Gee, what part of "your writing" in Josh's comments did I misunderstand? As for attacking first, I asked very un-antagonistically for recommendations for Garg fan fic, and what I get is an attack on my own writing. Yes, how awful that I make a snide reply. I should instead roll over and let the high and mighty shit all over me whenever they please. Sorry, not in this lifetime.

<<As far as SJ is concerned – He’s been here a lot longer than you have.>>

That and 4 bucks will get him a McDonald Value meal. Sorry if I don't genuflect just because some guy posted in the TGS comment room long before I did. So what besides getting here early has he done that I should lick his boots?

<<You’ll notice that not a lot of the “oldies” have said much about what all he had to say - the supposed racism, etc. That’s because we know SJ. We know his personality, his persona, the way he phrases things, and so on. We accept SJ for who he is, we understand his humor (as much as it’s understandable) and we see the value in what he has to say.>>

Yes, I can see the value of racism. Opps. Supposed racism. Gee, how could we survive without that? And I really have no problem with his speaking his views, even if I don't agree with them. I'd argue the value though. But whatever floats your boat.

<<I can’t believe you actually complained about him posting in the middle of the countdown. *rolls eyes* That is one of the most childish things I’ve seen you do in a long time. The “countdown” is not something sacred and holy. It doesn’t MATTER that he posted then. I’ve seen others do the same thing and yet you didn’t jump their butts over it. I’m sure SJ must feel honored that you singled him out.>>

Did I say it was holy? Wow, missed that. I did mention it would be more considerate not to post 10 pages smack in the middle of it. That's childish? So sue me. It bothered me, so I mentioned it. But of course only old timers may express opinions here. Heck, my little mention didn't have a lick of racism in it, so it must be totally without value. Whatever.

As for others posting huge wads in the top ten, I haven't seen anyone else do it to that degree. It was something that stuck out to me, so I made a comment. *rolls eyes* So I happen to be fond of the little weekly comment room top ten game. My abject apologies for mentioning it. Didn't know one couldn't express an opinion here about stuff like the top ten, an actual ongoing part of the TGS CR, because by doing so I've broken some sacred law of yours. Bad kitty! *smacks hand* Remember not to actually talk or express an opinion on thing that might actually be remotely related TGS or gargoyles. Bad kitty!

<<The length of his post or anyone else’s is something else you’ve whined about this week. PMS’ing?>>

Why, do you ask? Are you on the rag? If so I'll take the rest of your post with a grain of salt.

<<What has been discussed here this week is something that can’t necessarily be said in a short post. These are world issues and very serious ones. But oh yeah… you want to post about your art or your fics… some of us prefer dealing with the real world on occasion. Hmmm… let’s see… what’s more important??… world issues or cartoons? Give me a ‘sec to think about that one and I’ll get back to you.>>

Back to the "importance" of the given topic? Hmmm... let's see... what's the name of the CR again?? TGS, The Gargoyles Saga??? Wow, my tiny garg related posts are just so out of place here. I'm so chastised. Instead of talking about garg related stuff in a garg related comment room, I could be talking about how an entire nationality of people deserve death and all the ways and whys that make genocide a okay and sun shine fresh. whoopee!!

Strangely, for such an important topic, I didn't see you in there giving your opinion for why genocide of an entire people was okay, or "the only way"... Instead you comments are about... my comments. And your usual "what went on at work" stuff. Yes, the importance of it all just overwhelms me.

<<No one has prohibited you from posting about your own personal thoughts and activities. They are just as entitled to post what they want to as you are about yours (within the guidelines, of course) So, I really don’t see where you have any legitimate complaint. >>

Because my complaint IS my personal thought, so I voiced it. Because it was related to the CR, I voiced it here. And for the rest of it, wether you think it's a legit complaint or not doesn't really mean anything to me. I had a complaint so I voiced it. I was nice about it too, and didn't call SJ names or anything. But I guess the sacred senority means you can call anyone who doesn't agree with you or joins the CR after you a bitch and all is hunky dory. Must remember. Don't talk back to your "elders" because they are sooooo much better and holier and whatever crap it is that "seniority" in this CR grants you. Thanks for putting me straight. So appreciated.

Ever so humbled and made aware of her place in the great pecking order of the CR room, Mooncat vows to treat SJ, Jan, and everyone else who decides to try and throw their 'elder' status at her, like the Gods of Senority they are, and grant them all the sucking up and groveling they so richly deserve.

Happy?

<<a measly $10,808>>

Do I even need to say it? Suddenly reminded of glass houses and throwing stones...

Well, back to my lame lesbian porn infested writing.
ciao
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:14:07 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Israel> I was at a pro-Israel rally at my school today. The whole situation breaks my heart. But it makes me angry, too. Israel is fighting for it’s very survival from a group of genocidal maniacs and terrorists, yet they are condemned. The Palestinians are the ones that have rejected every single peace plan-including the original partition plan in 1948 that would have given them the land they claim is all they want now.

MC can call me a racist if she wants, but here are the facts: There are DOZENS of Muslim nations in the world. ANY ONE OF THEM could take the Palestinians in-Jordan especially.

However, for years Jordan has discriminated against the minority of Palestinians living within its borders, passing laws preventing them from occupying certain jobs, denying them certain services, etc. They are a pawn.

Further, Israel is combating enemies that teach children they will go to heaven if they commit terrorism. I have a deep respect for the religion of Islam and these people have perverted it horribly. They place children in front of snipers in the hope they will be killed so they can get media coverage.

And these are the people some people are siding with? It is wrong to try and bind their hands on such an important issue as this. Bush’s policy that Israel withdraw is wrong!

Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself. Their actions now are no different than our actions in Afghanistan-EXCEPT, Bin Laden and every Muslim nation in the world could NEVER destroy America.

Israel could easily be wiped out.

IMPFAC
Albany, NY, USA
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 09:50:13 PM
IP: 169.226.230.45

Mooncat> As I recall, a while back some people were referring to you as the “next porn queen” of the fanfics or something to that effect and you embraced that title with pride and basked in the glory. However, now when someone makes a comment about your love/lust for porn, you get all bent out of shape. Either you’re proud of it or your not… I’m confused as to which one you are. As much as you rave about your porn fics, you are going to have the reputation that comes with being involved or associated with porn. When Josh mentioned the “spell check porns” he was not necessarily referring to your fics. But, if you had actually read his post, you would have seen that. You attack first (and then still refuse to look at the facts even after they are pointed out to you numerous times), so I’m not surprised that you made your snide comments about something that didn’t even pertain to you.
As far as SJ is concerned – He’s been here a lot longer than you have. You’ll notice that not a lot of the “oldies” have said much about what all he had to say - the supposed racism, etc. That’s because we know SJ. We know his personality, his persona, the way he phrases things, and so on. We accept SJ for who he is, we understand his humor (as much as it’s understandable) and we see the value in what he has to say.
I can’t believe you actually complained about him posting in the middle of the countdown. *rolls eyes* That is one of the most childish things I’ve seen you do in a long time. The “countdown” is not something sacred and holy. It doesn’t MATTER that he posted then. I’ve seen others do the same thing and yet you didn’t jump their butts over it. I’m sure SJ must feel honored that you singled him out.
The length of his post or anyone else’s is something else you’ve whined about this week. PMS’ing? What has been discussed here this week is something that can’t necessarily be said in a short post. These are world issues and very serious ones. But oh yeah… you want to post about your art or your fics… some of us prefer dealing with the real world on occasion. Hmmm… let’s see… what’s more important??… world issues or cartoons? Give me a ‘sec to think about that one and I’ll get back to you.
No one has prohibited you from posting about your own personal thoughts and activities. They are just as entitled to post what they want to as you are about yours (within the guidelines, of course) So, I really don’t see where you have any legitimate complaint.

Gunjack> Yes, you are extremely influenced by what Lain says. I have seen the transformation since you and she hooked up.

Metaldemon> <<they are condemning the actions of Israel and hae said repeatedly that they don't support Palestine.>> they are condemning one and not supporting the other… sounds like a conflict to me. So, what exactly are they saying? They are sure saying a lot to not be saying anything.

Greg> <<and that the Sept 11 attacks were "maybe" justified>> at least this person had the courtesy of saying “maybe”. Think of what it’s like to be told that we “cocky Americans deserved the attack”…. AND be told this only a couple of days after 9-11….
AND from someone who lives in a “friendly” country….AND from someone one here in CR.
<<In other news, my town is on the front page of "The Journal News", back in 1994, a Catholic priest was removed for molesting a kid>> yeah, I also heard that this priest had received some type of compensation each time they moved him from parish to parish. Wouldn’t you be pleased (if you were catholic) to know that the money that you’ve given in support of the church has gone to compensate a child molester and to continue to support him and his deviant behaviors? O.o yeah, buddy… who do I make the check out to? Not hardly.

Shadowrider> You’ve made some excellent points. However, <<Yes, if only I could induce myself in thinking that way, my life would be easier>> I don’t see that as being realistic or even creative. You become a drone. This is how people like Hitler came into power. It’s when people stop questioning they stop learning. You are far too intelligent to allow yourself to become a drone and to stop learning. I do think that sometimes there are people who think *too* much. They question everything to the point of being obsessed and never satisfied. This accomplishes nothing except a lot of stress. There are just some things that are because they are.
I agree that it was a bit over the top with the admins just giving open reign to those who they happen to also agree with. If it was something that they disagreed with, I have my suspicions that they would have put a halt to most of the conversations. But, I also think that some of the ways that they initially approached this was in part, humor. Or, they just agreed with SJ so much that it was the shock factor of them agreeing with him. ;)
Like you, I will not state my opinion on the Isreal/Palenstine situation. *coughsIsrealcoughs* ;)

I have however; have enjoyed the conversation concerning this issue. It was interesting to see both sides of the coin. It didn’t change my own mind about how I feel about it, but I always respect both sides of an argument/debate.

Shaherezad> so true, so true *nods and sighs*

Stephen> Happy birthday =)

Christine> Happy belated birthday : ) I hope that you have had a pleasant visit with your outlaws… ‘er I mean in laws ;)

Syrn> *hughughug* Thank you for the shuttle information and for researching that! *throws flowers in appreciation at your feet* You da’ bomb!

IP: 205.188.201.204 > which part of GO AWAY do you not seem to understand?

Now… for the personal stuff:

I have experienced the underbelly of law enforcement has to deal with these past couple of days… child abuse and possible murder. First case is a creep that has raped, sodomized, and sexually abused 2 small girls – ages 5 and 10. It was with great pleasure that I did my infinitely small contribution of notarizing the probable cause affidavits and delivering the charges to the Prosecuting Attorney’s office. There are 7 counts against this troll. The sex crimes detective will be picking the guy up tomorrow, hopefully. I won’t go into the details of what he did to these children, but after reading the report, I was sick to my stomach and had to go outside for some fresh air and to dry my tears.
The second case happened in our county and a neighboring county. This creep kidnapped a mom and her 10 year old daughter back in August. The mom has disappeared and he kept the 10 year old as his “sex slave”. They all lived and are from a different county. The girl told the therapist that she saw this guy with a big knife and her mom lying on the floor with a lot of blood. The guy told her that her mom was “resting”. The girl said that she has seen her mom once since that time – and she was lying on a bed, covered with bugs. This poor child is so traumatized and will forever be emotionally scarred. Our county has become involved because he took them to a camp ground in our county and they think this is where he murdered her and dumped her body. Our deputies and sheriff are searching for the body. First, they are trying to narrow down the area and will be conducting interviews with campers that were around their camp area during this time. When they arrested this slimeball, they found numerous home made video tapes in his trailer…. One that was described today was of an anonymous 16-17 yr old girl and some other guy… it showed him injecting some kind of drug into her arm vein and then repeatedly raping her. Apparently, they got some kind of jolly out of taping themselves. No one knows who either person is in the video and whether or not they are still alive. I have a feeling we’re going to be wrapped up in this case for quiet some time. Kathy and I do a lot of the behind the scenes work – making phone calls, tracking down and requesting park records, etc. This is certainly going to be a learning experience for me.

I’m going to SE Missouri this weekend for a family reunion. It’s the land of true hillbillies – complete with outhouses and water wells on the back porch. I will either come back feeling superiorly educated or married to my cousin.

Time to begin the taxes for the kids. I can do theirs on the computer with the tax software. Mine has been reduced (by a 2nd accountant) to owing a measly $10,808. I feel the crunch!! *groans*
Jan
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 08:28:19 PM
IP: 12.110.237.123

Hi! everyone
Have you seen kitty anywere. Because I'm going to get her and I don't care if she is 12 years old.
Lee
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 07:33:55 PM
IP: 205.188.201.204

josh>> <<"Yes, I see your breasts...er, argument." .. Just that canadian, and just your brain. A fair assumption, given the circumstances.>> wow, i never imagined i was as alluring as all that! but then you came through and saw me as the whole woman i am, instead of fixating on my intellect and ability to argue logically. thankyou!
:P

moonkitty>> if yer gettin all garg-deprived.. im working on a story i could send you for some reading over.. if you wanted. theres no lesbian porn.. or lesbian bondage porn.. or semi-incestuous lesbian porn.. or even any hetero porn.. nope, theres no porn at all.. you might not be able to manage reading through just boring plot stuff.. so if you dont want to, i TOTALLY understand.. :P
it is kind of.. um.. violent though.. with the mass genocide and the wing-ripping and the mercenary shooting and.. well.. yeah.. maybe even enough to make up for the lack of porn?
;)
and youre going to akon? *I* might be going to akon.. if i can afford the ticket there and can afford to spare the time, that is.. schpiff!

stephen>> happy birfday!!! yes, yes, since you asked so nicely and all im working on stuff to submit to avmists. :D

greg b>> <<By the way, anyone else pissed off at the French?>> the french french or the quebecois french? not that it really matters..
"quebec: "bah, wai!"
distinct society: yes
really?: maybe, were not sure
come on. distinct society, yes or no?: that is correct
catholic churches every ten paces: yes
tabloid newspapers with names like "police splatter!" and "allo intestines!": yes
separatists on the federal payroll of radio canada: every ten paces, baby.
wine with supper?: yes
wine with lunch?: absolutely!
wine with breakfast?: why not?
what are they, a bunch of alcoholics?: yes"
-will and ian ferguson, "how to be canadian"

*ducks from the profanities soon to be levied in the general direction of "rose"*

anyway, thats all for now :P
love,

lain
the Great White North
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 06:49:33 PM
IP: 64.228.195.4

Hi! everyone did you have a nice day. ^_^ see you later
Rose
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 06:14:25 PM
IP: 205.188.201.204

<Grins, scooping up Asrial before heading to the door>

Love it Spike! Best B-Day present so far today... now excuse me while I go get some lunch. (at a local samich shop, you evil people.)...

Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616@yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 01:30:50 PM
IP: 65.35.129.166

Why can't people behave and ruin the fun for everyone. -_-;; *sigh*

Anyways, Gathering update!! I'll send out a mailer later on tonight, but the website is updated!

Information Included:
Gathering t-shirt winner!
(also you can view all of the entries now!)
Thankyou to everyone who entered!

SHUTTLES!!
Yes, you heard me right! We called ahead and found shuttle services (with prices quoted) from each of the airports to the gathering! Check out the website for more details!

There is also now a countdown to the gathering!! only 78 days left! Go check it out!

Writers> Don't feel left out, there WILL be writing contest information up soon! So its your chance to get in on the gathering!

As always, if you have any questions you can email me at siryn7@aol.com or the gathering email address at gatheringofgargoyles@yahoo.com!!

Paypal _is_ coming soon..I'm working on it. -_-;;
Siryn - [gatheringofgargoyles@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 01:27:20 PM
IP: 129.21.153.2

Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday dear Stephen
Happy birthday to you!!

*throws confetti as Asrial pops out of cake*
Spike
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:53:42 PM
IP: 208.190.39.121

Ah... I love it when comics make fun of Executives!
Fire Storm - [<--- Funny comic!]
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:45:52 PM
IP: 216.254.103.139

Ghost of Attilla --

*nods* Totally serious.

I think the whole 'smash toy' solution would be peachy. In this case I don't think simply taking the toy away would work, because as long as it's there both sides will try and take it from the other, and if a third party took over they would have to beat BOTH the isrealis and palestines off constantly. A shame about it's holy value, but then the whole Earth is holy, if you believe in God. If god created the earth, then there isn't a speck of dust that wasn't divinely created.

*Eyes hose in GoA paddy paws speculatively... prepares to take off shirt, but stops half way...* Hey, what if I don't HAVE a white t-shirt? *head pokes back through the collar of her black silk blouse* Oh well... nice try!

MC
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:14:38 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Hiya Spacebabie *^_~*

Hmmm... drat, I knew I forgot something! What about I draw a nice yaoi piccie of Goliath and Xanatos to make up for it? I am in the mood to try a little beef cake on the drawing board. Right now I'm working on a Taurus pic (stand alone unfortunately) But a Goliath/Xanatos piccie coming very soon!

Dracon and Matt? There's a couple I hadn't even thought of... hmmm... Let me think about it and I'll let you know. *^_^*

Brooklyn/Talon is a definate possibility though.

I hope to do a lot of art over the next few months. Writing has priority but my art bug has been buzzing at me furiously since April began. Plus A-kon is coming up and I'd like to have something there this year. sigh... I always put it off to the last minute though. *frets*

ciao for now
Mooncat
>^,,^<
bishi rules!
Mooncat
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:04:51 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Meow!! I'm on the rise

Mooncat> I hope you weren't serious about how to handle Israel. Otherwise, I got my hose ready. Just take off the bra and don a white t-shirt, then Toman will give me the twenty bucks :)

Imzadi> <<If its inhabited by porn stars, I'm there!>> Try Amish :)

Shadowrider> Well, SJ wasn't warned, unless you're adding others to the list of racists. I think we just let him say whatever outlandish crap he wants, because it is SJ. He could suggest the need to play Amos and Andy on BET and no one would say anything.

Paul Alan Nathans> ::arches back as fur stands on edge:: Hisss!!! You are the weakest link...goodbye!!

Israel and Palestine> In the past its easy to take one side. Palestine has been against the US. Israel is our allay. Too easy. Now, as GB remembers that he is a Catholic and not just an American, stuff like mercy weighs in on his soul and forgiveness...and tehre is the fact that some Palestinains are Catholic, plus the Church of the Nativity is in the cross fire. Neither faction is innocent, but neither is thoroughly evil. The US gives Israel considerable amounts of foreign aid. It is time the US used its investment wisely and made some demands on them. Bush's plans for volunteerism and promotion of helping others on an individual basis as opposed to used a bunch of buerecrats and social workers who thrive on suffering, can extend to efforts to help Palestinians, perhaps we can use our dollar diplomacy with them. First, Israel needs to use Eminent Domain for the Plaestinains who lost their lands. Next, we can encourage our own waves of justice workers, especially headed by American muslims to assist the Plaestinains. Jimmy Carter can start building houses and we can unleash mammon's embrace to them,a s Jews and Arabs can stop fighting and both profit greatly from a peaceful alliance. This land has immense commercial value for its history and both factions should live very comfortably with it.

Of course, the violence needs to be stopped, and I fear war is inevitable.

Also, the US has a lot of mistakes to clear up in the Middle East, first being Sadaam Hussein (who we boosted up in the 80s) and next is the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia, and these guys make the Kennedys look good. There is so much needed to be done and it all could be avoided if we practiced long-term planning. All we care about is five years down the line, not 500.

That's all for now. Goodnight and all teh pretty women think of me :)
Ghost of Reverend Attila
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:01:37 AM
IP: 140.156.6.2

Foamy

Now while Josh and Co make comments about that start of discussion I’ll explain in the simplest terms I can think.

1.In hurry for class
2.Can of mousse falls on side
3. Go to class.
4.return, find white stuff all over bathroom

that’s right there was mousse all over, and not the good chocolate stuff you like to lick of your lover’s body, but the kind that goes in the hair.

In good news I made another A-/B+ on my test. I kicked ass on the essay part.

And since Angelfire is changing its policy I’m thinking about getting my own domain.

8 days till last day of class
14 days till I get my permanent crown
15 days till the Final

Replies.
Shingami-sama :::bows::: <<<Bishansky-kun is, lately?>>>According to Tigerbeat he is hotter than Freddie Prinze jr.

GXB<<<Where's my gift? ;) >>>:::Places a book full of naked Demona pictures in front of Greg:::<<<The troll's email address is Vickiwillis@aol.com to be exact >>>How about a snail addy?<<<By the way, anyone else pissed off at the French?>>>You mean lately or on a daily basis?

Mooncat>>>Thanks for the squeak toy and pastry. Ooooh you forgot the Yaoi fics with Goliath/Xanatos… Dracon/Matt. Brooklyn/Broadway Goliath/Thailog Talon/Fang and that crossover one with Lexington getting kissed by Zelgadis.

Josh<<<Your phone number is (856) 451-2777>>> Everyone call this number and report to Miss Willis’s parents that she is being a pain in the keister.<<>>Or post all their private information.<<<It'll take a lot more than an imaginary chocolate bar to shut me up.>>>Hey I don’t want you to shut up, just cool down.,<<<1) Where the door is and 2) how to walk through it.>>>LOL good one.<<<Its hard to keep those commandments when the admins are egging them on.>>>They are pissing the admins off by resorting to name calling and saying that they don’t have a right to discuss the situation.<<<Did you see the movie "Breast Men"?>>>Nope<<>>Do you know how hard it is to find a decent bra in my cup size?<<<In fairy hippy land,>>>Berkley???

Niahmgold>>> I missed you so much

Anonymous/Rose: Hey maybe if you posted your name in the first place.

Lee/Rose/Vicki/Anon: You have the same IP moron what is it with you and this obsession with this comment room?

Stephen>>>Happy Birthday

SJ<<<Seniority.>>> :::Preens through SJ’s hair looking for gray:: Nothing.<<<wonder who influenced that opinion.>>>Are you saying that Gunjcak is Putty whipped by Lain???

Different Anonymouse<<<Paul Nathans >>>AGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!! ::Rips down name and does the Noiyaya dance on it.::
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:53:13 AM
IP: 67.24.16.78

Josh> <<You're right, I do know from experiance>>

I love being right all the time ;)
metaldemon
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 09:30:48 AM
IP: 129.120.255.198

Josh><<Okay, do people just ignore system requirements!? what do they think they're there for, decoration!?>>To quote one person who's computer i worked on "You mean the stuff in your computer actually makes a difference?" << Why are you admin on her computer?>> We techies are admin on every school owned computer that we support. We are Root. All their hard drive are belong to us. <<Free shipping!? >> The only thing is, if you live in a state where they have a manufacturing plant, you pay sales tax. still 6 or 7 % on 52$ is better than a flat $10 or $15 shipping fee. <<Who do they ship via?>> FedEx, (it's either 3day, or 2nd day..i don't remember). <<Naturally, you are the engineer of the group.>> Actually, i'm the bit-pusher of the group. I'm _also_ the only undergrad in the class. <> Ah, as we nukes were called at Great Lakes, you are now an Egg Head. (I swear, that is what they called everone of us who was going into Nuke engineering).

I said I wasn't going to say anything on the Israel/Palestine debate, but the statistics raised kinda sparked a memory.

Two years ago, my team captain , a Lieutennat in israel's army (who wife is was a captain and an artillery driver/coordinator) told me a story. He, and the unit he was attached to, were standing watch at a border area. They saw, across a kind of no-mans land, a mass of palestinians. The mob grew, and began to move foreward. The my friend's captain took out a bull horn and warned the palestinians to go back. They moved closer, picked up a little speed, and he warned them again. Then the first shot was fired. By a palestinian. It was poorly aimed, and hit a rock. unfortunatly, it bounced off the rock and into the captain's testicles (ouch). Needless to say, this left the captain on the ground and out of the fight. This left my friend at the top of the chain of command. Shots continued to come from the palestinian group, so he ordered his troops to fire near the mob. this did not deter the group. the few with guns (the majority of the mob had melee weapons of some sort) continued to fire. My friend had nothing left to do but order his troops to fire into an agressive mob. The mob got to within 20 meters before they turned and fled (and no, I don't know if the israelis stopped firing at that point. there is no assumption that can made to that). My friend says he knows he killed people, and so did his men, but it was the only thing to do. Had his post fallen, that mob could have cause the deaths of more than the group men at the garrison (i think he said it was something on the line of 20, but i'm not sure). So, when the 7.2:1 ratio is pulled out, that kind of action has to be taken into accout. Not all these palestinian deaths are caused by attacks or retaliation initiated by the israelis.

Anyway, that's the last i'll post on it.
Archwolf - [thearchwolf@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 08:28:11 AM
IP: 137.148.201.58

Josh -- gee, not everything I write is Elisa/Demona/Fox lesbian porn. Sometimes it's Robyn/Demona lesbian porn, or Hyena/Fox bondage lesbian porn, or Angela/Delilah semi-incestuous lesbian porn, or Fang and Delilah... hmmm... drat, lost the lesbian theme...

Oh well, we'll just gloss over that slip, shall we? And the plain vanilla Elisa and Goliath, or Demona and Macbeth porn. Fox and Xanatos? Thailog/Demona? Brooklyn/Demona? Ignore those scenes too.

Yup, nothing but lesbian porn, porn, porn... just ignore the 80 to 90 percent of the story that has nothing to do with sex, because clearly when you've read my stories (and you must have to so clearly seen they are nothing but lesbian porn) you can see the illusion of a story is simply there so that there is an excuse for the all the Elisa /Demona /Fox sex.

Of course, I look at all your lovely plot heavy rated G heterosexual gargoyles stories and stand awed and amazed... Ooo... Spell checked!

Well, off to write some more non-spell checked Elisa/Demona/Fox lezzie porn.

ciao
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 03:23:37 AM
IP: 65.30.27.68

What a lovely day! The sun was shining, the smog was barely there, I got a darker tan and was thoroughly entertained by the idiocy of a professor. OOH, and I got to learn how to use a defibrillator... you know, one of those "bvvvt CLEAR" devices used (incorrectly, I might add) on medical shows. ::blithely ignores continued rants and flames::
Replies
Josh-Ooh, a nuclear engineer. So you get to blow sh*t up all day? I'll try to never *ever* piss YOU off! Your Stewie quote-hahahahahshaddup. lol, I do love that demonic child. <Too bad I'm up by 8 every morning.> Ew. I hope it's worth it. NOTHING barring NOTHING could make me get up that early... well, maybe one or two things, but I'd complain heartily. <How else would we get into your pants?> Uh, embody perfection and then we'll discuss it. maybe. <Training, apparently.> I'll ignore that...<Are you gonna be a Magenta or a Moo-genta?> What an awful cow pun! We're really fixated on the mechanical bull thing, arn't we? Can't IMAGINE why.
DPH:< Next thing I know, you'll be suggesting classes after 3pm should be outlawed.> If mere suggestions could get me anywhere, yeah, I would. However, it's been generally agreed that attendance would peak if classes were planned between the hours of noon and midnight. College is all about late nights anyway...
Mooncat/Sevarius- Emotions are rising... try to maintain dignity by not calling names. If you fail to find some kind of middle ground, civility is a good thing. Just a suggestion.
::fades quietly out, hoping she didn't piss anyone off::

Lila - [Liejones@yahoo.com]
LA, CA, USA
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 02:55:09 AM
IP: 134.173.120.15

Wow, I think today was one of my most productive days in a long time. I managed to finally finish that devil of a structural engineering assignment that has probably taken me 7 hours total.

Then, later tonight, I pushed ahead and started my paper for engineering ethics. I'm already 3 pages in! Woohoo! Tomorrow I'll finish it, I hope.

if I'm good, I may be able to get way ahead on the next month or so, and that would be really nice.

I'm having some trouble deciding which design class to take next semester. I'm either gonna take Foundation Engineering or Steel Design. Both have semester long projects, the difference is that the latter has a 3 hour lab, while the former is at 8AM. Not sure what to do. Believe it or not, I don't have to take Steel Design to graduate 8-)

replies

Selanit: <<Do we have any idea when new TGS eps will be released?>>: Never. <<May I suggest a mailing list? You could sign up on the TGS web page for notification when the series starts up again>>: And then people would come in here and ask why they haven't received an email about the new ep. So no, you may not suggest that.

Patrick Toman: <<doesn't a suicide bomber, by definition, always kill a number of people equal to or greater than one?>>: In fairy hippy land, we ignore logic. <<there's a town in Pennsylvania called Intercourse, but I still don't want to move there>>: If its inhabited by porn stars, I'm there! <<Now there's one job where the goal is NOT to attain a glowing review>>: No kidding. I doubt I'll be near anything radioactive, though. The project is in Taiwan. <<say hi to Lenny, Carl, and Mr. Burns for me>>: Hehe, will do. <<I'd have to say I find your art and fanfic anything but irrelevant>>: You people who only care about porn are very odd. I love porn, don't get me wrong...but its not the be-all-end-all of fiction.

Taleweaver: <<Hang on to your jockeys shorts>>: I wear boxers. <<flame-retardant undies>>: Are they laced with asbestos?

Christine: <<sometimes ignorance _is_ bliss>>: Sometimes!? You obviously don't know the right ignorant people. <<heading for the border soon>>: Who'd you kill this time?

Lain: <<yes, they changed it, to "*SOUTH* dildo">>: LOL! I'm not sure if North Dildo would have been funnier or not.

Metaldemon: <>: You're right, I do know from experience. For one terrifying week in 1994, I didn't leave the hotel room in Jerusalem without worrying about being blown up or shot. No palestinian worries about an israeli suicide bomber, or random person walking around shooting people. Their enemies are clearly marked in IDF uniforms. They know to run. <<If you don't support Affirmative Actions you're a black-hating racist sexist pig;>>: That's me!

Niamhgold: <<Thanks to Shadowrider for the wishes he's been sending>>: Oh sure, forget all about me. <<i'm taking incomplete leave from school>>: Best of luck.

Aaron: <<Back to the important things in life, like the NBA playoff race and Baldur's Gate II>>: What about sex and driving?

Gavin: <>: You're not getting the point of "ignoring", are you? <>: It was funny when I was 16 and the virgins were the same age. Unfortunately, the virgins aren't aging with me, so I'm not finding it as amusing.

DPH: <<in theory, with the bare-bone requirements listed below, this software could work>>: Well, on windows, any software that should work instead "could" work. <<With valid arguments and facts supporting my side>>: Oh sure, take all the fun out. <<you'll be suggesting classes after 3pm should be outlawed>>: No, because I'd never do any homework.

Sevarius Jr: <<Now that I have her phone number, I think I'll call her up. And tell her to kill herself>>: Good plan. Please do that. <<I'll go all crazy and predict that he doesn't reciprocate the affection>>: You'd be correct. <<she won't get anything off of Josh>>: Am I difficult to get? <<REALLY? Well then, I'm interested now. Maybe I will call her>>: Now my roommate will be jealous. <<be FOREWARNED, Mooncat, it'll be long again>>: Careful, her brain might explode. <<GodDAMN what a bitch you’re being>>: Glad you said it and not me. <<cause I’m talking about important stuff>>: That's up for debate. <<Maybe if I had written 10 pages about cats or porn or something you’d have been a little less catty>>: Only if it involved fox, demona, and elisa in a lesbian sex triangle while they turn into feline furries or something. <<Seniority>>: That, and you're more interesting. <<a country no larger than the state of New Jersey>>: And almost as smelly. <<The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won>>: sadly, might does not make right. <<if Israel wins and conquers Palestine (which they could do easily), than thousands of Palestinians would be displaced – into Jordan. Which is the LAST thing he, or any other Arab country, wants>>: Sad, isn't it? <<They are real killers when alive, but somehow count as "civilians" when dead>>: Ooh, I like that quote. <<The problem is not that the Palestinians object to the idea of displaying preferences per se, but that their own biases and prejudices have so little appeal to Americans>>: Wow, another great quote. <>: Don't flatter yourself. <<Unless one was facing an enemy so utterly fanatical that they will not rest until your entire race is dead>>: Like, say, a Palestinian? <<when I say “fanatic”, it’s a synonym for “Palestinian”>>: Oh, you did say Palestinian ;-) << I’d dodgeball them, Billy Madison-style>>: LOL! <<Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6?” And that’s for regular, ordinary, American policemen>>: Bullshit. Do you know what they do to cops in jail!? <<who’s gonna take away our land? The Canadians?>>: Dude, the Mexicans are already doing it. Have you *been* to Los Angeles?! <<Reverse the subject and direct object of that sentence, and I totally believe you>>: Are you implying that Lain has used her womanly influence on Gunjack? No, I suppose you're outright saying it. <<Do I have the balls to agree with you on this point?>>: If you didn't, you wouldn't be SJ. <>: Well, its the 20th century. Christianity's time of holy wars was a few centuries ago. <<because I could just as easily call you and lain and Gunjack anti-Semite Jew-haters>>: Not shadowrider. Nothing in his speech had anything to do with the Israel-Palestine thing. He was just calling you racist. <<It’s about sand in the desert THAT HAS JEWS ON IT. And therein lies the trouble>>: What do you think we talk about at Seder!? <<so you think might makes right!>>: I know I just said that... <>: maybe you should convert. <<God, do I feel for you>>: Thank you for finally referring to me by my proper name. <<Is that what Berkeley is like year round?>>: Pretty much, only the people they show on TV are the ATTRACTIVE ones. <>: The protests, along with the hippies, liberal arts majors (morons), and other useless members of society hang out on the south side of campus. All us engineers, who are to busy to care, much less protest, are up here on the north side. It's nice and quiet, but the average IQ is at least 50 points higher.

Shadowrider: <<Some people discovered it in the worst way>>: Personally, I think there are worse ways to discover that. <<We are talking about those who are supposed to oversee this place>>: Ah, I thought you were just referring to one person. I don't think the admins are quite that racist, I think they agreed with certain parts of that post but some random person visiting this room would probably not search through all the posts to find out what the post said.

Shinigami: <<I'm curious what the obsession with Bishansky-kun is, lately? Did I miss out on the latest fad?>>: I guess he'll be in G2k2's "Men of the Fandom" Calendar instead of me.

Stephen: <<And Now for Something completely Different>>: Channel 5 will now explode. <<B-day>>: Happy bday. <<what does anyone think of the trailers for the new Spider Man Movie>>: I predict the movie will suck, but it looks like a lot of fun!

Mooncat: <<Can anyone recommend some good Gargoyles fan fiction to read?>>: I recommend The Barracuda's "Beginning Anew" series. I know its not your usual lame fox-elisa-demona lesbian porn-fest that infests everything you write, but it is actual quality, with real plots, a tiny bit of sex, interesting characters, good villains. It takes off where TGS finished at the end of season 2. This is what actual quality writing, not hardcore not-spell-checked porn looks like. <<What was it you have Senority in, being a flame spewing troll?>>: Um, being here, der.

Paul Nathans: You forgot me.

Greg X: <<in a perfect world, aka La-La Land (no relation to LA>>: Shows what you know. <<Several million of them truly frightens me>>: And you know what's even scarier? They all hate *you*! <<anyone else pissed off at the French?>>: Lets see, is today a day that ends in "y"? Yes? Oh, then everyone must hate the french.

Gunjack: <<Whooooooo doggy>>: You are such a redneck. 8-) <<Only, she did it by presenting enough solid evidence as to make my position undefendabble>>: "Yes, I see your breasts...er, argument." <<You seem to have this weird superstition that canadians can rewrite people's brains or something. It's actually quite amusing>>: Just that canadian, and just your brain. A fair assumption, given the circumstances. <<The fact that a JEW would suggest this is, frankly dizzying>>: I agree that its totally incongruous.

Jeez, that too a while. Alright folks, hasta manana.

Anything worth having is worth cheating for.
-Unknown

Josh "Imzadi" Wurzel - [@kicktothenuts.com]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 02:44:09 AM
IP: 64.161.25.161

SJ - Whooooooo doggy... When you post, you POST. No time for in-depth replies tonight; I was up until 3am this morning, and I'm very, very tired.

<> Gosh golly gee, me TOO! Only, she did it by presenting enough solid evidence as to make my position undefendabble. <<Reverse the subject and direct object of that sentence, and I totally believe you.>> You seem to have this weird superstition that canadians can rewrite people's brains or something. It's actually quite amusing.

Let's hit the highlights.

1. Ethnic Cleansing
<<Yes, let’s yell at the Israelis for actions that are *perceived* as ethnic cleansing, as opposed to the Palestinians, who openly advocate it.>> Bait and switch.
I have not and do not claim that the Israelis are following a path of ethnic cleansing.
What I AM doing is condemning both yourself and your friend Hillel for suggesting such a barbaric measure. What he advocates is an action that is NEVER acceptable; namely, the extermination of an ethnic population.
The fact that a JEW would suggest this is, frankly dizzying.
...Why, HELLO there, Aaron!

2.Excessive Force
<<If a kid did that to me HERE, in the USA, I’d at the least be willing to beat their ass. I’d dodgeball them, Billy Madison-style.>>

<<Unless one of them was a amateur obstetrician, they couldn’t have been entirely sure if it was a fetus or C4 she was smuggling.>>

<<Ever hear the expression, “Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6?” And that’s for regular, ordinary, American policemen. I can imagine that Israeli soldiers would be just a little bit more tense at the site of any suspicious activity.>>

Short version. American Law, International Law, and every police and law-enforcement agency in the US or Europe beg to differ.

All three of the examples given above display an attitude toward the use of force that is... extreme. Not only do you assume that ANYONE (including women in labor and small children) should be assumed guilty until proven innocent, but you also advocate the use of lethal force on the basis of mere suspicion (would the technical term be "probable cause?). If you excercised these tactics on an American street, you would spend the rest of your life avoiding gang-rape in the showers of one of our fine federal institutions.

Yes, the Israeli tactic of shooting anything that moves makes life safer for the Israelis (in the short term; the propaganda dividends reaped by the other side are a whole nother ball game). By the same token, we could make life safer still for the israelis by, say, killing ALL palestinians. I'd ask if you thought that'd be alright, but we've already heard your opinions on the matter.

You can say that such restrictions are "unrealistic" but the facts indicate otherwise. This is EXACTLY how the Israelis end up killing seven times as many people as the Terrorists.
The Israelis have killed 2200 Palestinians, not because they are good at war, but because they are shockingly bad at peace.

More tomorrow.
Gunjack "Something Clever" Valentine
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 02:15:50 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

I'll catch up eventually, just a bunch of converging projects and the like. Though I probably won't have many comments on the Israeli thing going on.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscatway, NJ
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 02:06:41 AM
IP: 198.151.130.133

**carries in a brand new Tea Table of Peace to replace the old one, setting it down in the room and taking a seat for a moment**

Actually, I was just going to say that I for the most part, it's been nice to see the debate in the CR over the last few days, except for a little bit of ugly name-calling and personal attacks. It's nice to see such a complex issue like this one be debated, and having both sides present facts and arguments and sources and all kinds of stuff ... it would be a *wonderful* debate were it not for the personal attacks.

Wish I could post more, but I've gotta finish up some homework ... later, all!

**sets some cookies down on the Tea Table of Peace before leaving** :)
Ravyn
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:37:43 AM
IP: 150.135.180.226

Sevarius JR-- <<Mooncat: GodDAMN what a bitch you’re being.>>

My, what a potty mouth you have. I mention you could be a tad more considerate, and you become even more foul. Color me impressed... not. What was it you have Senority in, being a flame spewing troll? Cuz I'll grant you that. So far, your contributions to the CR seem (imho) to center dumping as much vinegar and bile disguised as commentary as possible, and trying to start flame wars on purpose simply because you get some sick thrill at seeing people sniping at each other. If that's the way you get your jollies, you have my sincere pity.

Well, I'm going back to my non-relevent activities of garg fan fic writing.

ciao
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:21:26 AM
IP: 65.30.27.68

SJ> Just so we're clear here, I know it's not about land. Hell I agree with you for the most part. Yeah in a perfect world, aka La-La Land (no relation to LA ;)), both sides would be able to live in peace. I think it'd be nice, but I'm not expecting it to happen any time soon. I'm supporting Israel 100%. They are my people. Half my family is Jewish, my best friend is Jewish... born in Israel, lives here. His mother and sister live there.

Yeah, I'd personally like to see peace there. But I'm too much of a realist to think that will ever happen. I know it's not about land at all, it's about the Arab world not willing to tolerate a Jewish state among them. Well, I say: to Hell with them. Like was said, they had a state, they had the chance to live side by side in peace, they had many chances. The Palestinians threw it away every time. There's a Palestinian girl in my International Politics class, and every discussion we have she enters and applies to to her anti-Israel rants. She so much as said that "if" the Palestinians gain statehood, they should build up their weapons and military and finally take revenge and drive Israel into the sea, and that the Sept 11 attacks were "maybe" justified... though I imagine the "maybe" was put in by her to keep from being assaulted by some other people in the class later. So, I'm seeing their mentality first hand. I don't scare easily, but just seeing it from one person here, creeps me out. Several million of them truly frightens me.

By the way, anyone else pissed off at the French? There's terrorism going on in their country right now targetting the Jews there. They're condemning their own terrorism, and then turning around and condemning Israel for retaliating to terrorism.

In other news, my town is on the front page of "The Journal News", back in 1994, a Catholic priest was removed for molesting a kid, while not a friend of mine, I knew this kid. And the replacement that was sent was caught molesting another kid, and the church that sent him KNEW about it. Lots or protesting going on at the church in my town, and my mother, a Catholic, has lost all faith in Catholism, and is going to convert. She's thinking the Anglican Church right now. Though she's taking a look at Buddhism also.

Anonymous: Hi Galvatron. Oh, crap, you're Paul Nathans too? Can't say I'm surprised.

Well, I'm tired, got an early class tomorrow, then it's off to New York City.
Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 11:55:50 PM
IP: 216.179.2.237

SJ: <>

I'm sorry, that's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. People chunk that around to get their way so no one can speak against them. If you don't support Affirmative Actions you're a black-hating racist sexist pig; if you don't support abortion your sexis;, if you don't support Israel you're an anti-Semite. That's the biggest load of stinking sh!t I have ever heard.
People don't support Israel because they feel what Israel is doing is wrong and that they shouldn't be treated as Mr. Innocent because they're Jewish. And people don't support Palestine because they feel that what they are doing is wrong adn that tehy sholdn't be treated as MR. "Oh my religion doesn't promote violence."
When you support the entire extermination of a group of people, that is generally genocidal and racist; when you condmen a country for it's actions, that's condeming that specific country for it's actions. Neither Gunjack, Lain, or shadowrider are condemning Jews; they are condemning the actions of Israel and hae said repeatedly that they don't support Palestine. It is NOT racism!
Why don't you try to find another tag-line that you can blacken people with? That's the stupidest, oldest, and non-sensical thing someone can say.
metaldemon
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 11:36:37 PM
IP: 24.219.166.91

List of Seemingly Good Writers

Aaron Ziegler
Alamanara Sasinak Pax Vik Deorum Foxfire
Angel H
Aves
Belgarion
Bennett Salinger
Brian MacDonald
Coyote the Bando
Demoness
Doug Elder
Dramath
ED
Ithica
James Birdsong
Jewel Faulkner
Luci Fur
Merlin Missy
Nancy Brown
Pistoff
Rahat Husain
Star Wyvern
The Guardian
Trynia Merin
Warpmind de InzanE

Paul Nathans
Anonymous
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 11:27:29 PM
IP: 63.155.240.24

"Truth is a three edged sword. There's their side, your side, then there's the truth."- Ambassador Kosh Narranek of the Vorlon Empire

Anonymous
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 11:24:32 PM
IP: 63.155.240.24

First things first.

Mooncat: GodDAMN what a bitch you’re being.

Seriously, I didn’t post much (if anything) in here for like two weeks, and when I do post it’s long, cause I’m talking about important stuff, instead of the usual drivel I comment on, and you want to give me grief for it?

SORRY if I inconvenienced you in the slightest. Maybe if I had written 10 pages about cats or porn or something you’d have been a little less catty.

Ho ho! Wacky little pun there.

<<I wonder why SJ's rants about palastine and isreal on a gargoyle's comment room are more relevent then oh... my tiny comments on garg fan art, garg fan story, or direct comments to other garg fans here in the CR.>> Seniority.

*****

Now some more stuff on the Israel / Arab relationship:

*Here are some more facts about the Israel / Arab conflict.*

Netanyahu was recently interviewed about Israel's “occupation” of Arab lands -- his response was "It's our land."

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 BC, two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two DECADES after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Old Testament and not once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 30,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

17. The U.N was silent while the Jordanians destroyed 58 Jerusalem Synagogues. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

***

Yes, it’s obviously all about land, isn’t it.

Speaking of Jordan….I was watching one of the news programs yesterday…it was either ABC with Jennings or CBS w/ Brokaw….they were interviewing the king of Jordan. Naturally, he’s against Israel, but it was damn humorous to hear what he had to say. Why is he, in particular, SO down on Israel? Because he admitted (essentially, although not quite in these words, I’m paraphrasing) that if Israel wins and conquers Palestine (which they could do easily), than thousands of Palestinians would be displaced – into Jordan. Which is the LAST thing he, or any other Arab country, wants.

********

Now another long article on the Palestinians.
History Isn't on the Palestinians' Side Arafat's strategy is suicidal in more ways than one.

BY VICTOR DAVIS HANSON Tuesday, April 2, 2002 12:01 a.m.

For all the efforts of our contemporary theorists to harness and sometimes refashion history, the facts of the past belong to no one--and won't go away. Those who conjure it up often discover to their dismay that they themselves are subject to its brutal laws of truth. The Palestinians are fast learning of history's ironies and unintended reminders, as they seek to invoke the past to convince Americans of the righteousness of their present plight. Take the idea of the occupation of Arab lands since 1967, which the Palestinians now cite as a singular historical grievance that needs immediate rectification through intervention of the U.S. But sadly occupation and partition are the bastard children of war: and history, rightly or wrongly, is not kind to states that repeatedly attack their neighbors--and lose.

Ask the millions of poor Germans who had their ancestral lands confiscated by Poland and France--and their country subsequently partitioned for a half century. Why do the Russians still occupy portions of the old Japanese homeland decades after the surrender? How is it that the British won't give up Gibraltar long after their successful battles against the Spanish fleet? And why must the world give far more attention to Palestine than it does to Tibetans, Irish and Chechens?

The situation on the West Bank is not only commonplace in history's harsh calculus, but prevalent even throughout the Arab world today. Right next door in Lebanon, Syria controls far more Arab land than does Israel. And if Palestinians suffer second-class citizenship under Israeli occupation, they are worse off in occupied Lebanon where, as helots, they are denied basic rights to employment, health care and government services.

Kuwait ethnically cleansed all Palestinians--perhaps a third of a million--just a decade ago. Well after the 1967 Six Day War, the Jordanians themselves slaughtered thousands. Before the intifada more Palestinians sought work in a hated Israel than in a beloved Egypt. History suggests that there is more going on in Palestine than the morality of occupation.

The Palestinians have turned to suicide bombers--terrorists boasting of a new and frightening tactic that cannot be stopped. But they should recall the kamikazes off Okinawa that brought death, terror and damage to the American fleet--before prompting horrific responses that put an end to them for good and a lot more besides. In general, the record of terrorist bombers--whether Irish, Basque or Palestinian--who seek to reclaim "occupied" lands is not impressive in winning either material concessions or the hearts and minds of the world.
Palestinian spokesmen decry asymmetrical casualty figures, as if history has ever accorded moral capital to any belligerents that suffered the greater losses in war. Again, ask imperial Japan or Nazi Germany whether the ghosts of millions of their dead today carry moral weight when their governments once sought war against their neighbors.

Deliberately trying to blow apart civilians will never be seen as the moral equivalent of noncombatants dying as a result of the street fighting in the West Bank. Afghans accidentally killed by errant bombing in Kandahar are different from those deliberately incinerated on Sept. 11. Somalis killed in Mogadishu by American peacekeepers--far more civilians dying there in two days than in two years on the West Bank--are not the same as those murdered by thugs in jeeps trying to steal food from the starving.

Americans learned in Vietnam and Mogadishu that it is hard to distinguish civilians from soldiers when gunmen do not always wear uniforms and take potshots from the windows of homes: They are real killers when alive, but somehow count as "civilians" when dead. The problem is not that the Palestinians are losing more than the Israelis due to their greater victimhood or morality, but rather that they find themselves losing very badly to a military far more adept at fighting.

Nor do the Palestinians' cries for justice exist in an historical vacuum. True, the current Arab-Israeli war--at least the fourth since 1948--is fought over the West Bank: but that is only because the theater of operations has changed somewhat since the Arab world lost the first three wars to destroy Israel proper. Less than two years ago, Yasser Arafat was offered almost all of the West Bank and would now be the unquestioned strongman of his own tribal fiefdom had he taken such a generous Israeli offer. His own scheming and the intifada--not Israeli extremism--brought back to him his old nemesis, Ariel Sharon.

Again, the problem for the Palestinians is not that Americans are ignorant of the historical complexities of the Middle East, but that we know them only too well.

Palestinian spokesmen give us moralistic lectures about remaining disinterested as "honest brokers"--even as they appeal to Arab anti-Semitism and racial solidarity on grounds of national, religious and ethnic empathy. That double standard puzzles America, because by any such measure we also find affinity in shared values, and so have almost none with the Palestinians, who, like the entire Arab world, do not embrace real democracy, free speech, open media and religious diversity.
Nor is it good public relations for illegitimate dictatorships of the Arab League to shake fingers at democracies in America and Israel on issues of equality and fairness. The problem is not that the Palestinians object to the idea of displaying preferences per se, but that their own biases and prejudices have so little appeal to Americans.

We are told that the Palestinians have a long memory of, and reverence for, the past--especially the injustice of 50 years of lost homelands. But Americans are not ahistorical. We remember Sept. 11, and the Palestinians who cheered our dead before being admonished by a terrified Arafat.

For the past three decades Palestinian terrorists and their sponsoring brotherhoods have murdered Americans abroad. Palestinians embraced Saddam Hussein's cause and clapped as Scuds plunged into Tel Aviv and blew apart American soldiers in Saudi Arabia. An entrapped Arafat now calls for American succor, but a few months ago scoffed that the U.S. was irrelevant as far as he was concerned. The problem, again, is not that Americans have forgotten Palestinian acts, but that we remember them all too well.

The Arab world warns of its martial prowess and deadly anger--as American flags burn, threats to kill us are issued, and "the street" shakes its collective fist. But we Americans remember 1967, when we gave almost no weapons to the Israelis--but the Russians supplied lots of sophisticated arms to the Arabs. In the Six Day War, the state radio networks of Syria, Egypt and Jordan boasted to the world that their triumphant militaries were nearing Tel Aviv even as their frightened elites pondered abandoning Damascus, Cairo and Amman. And we recall the vaunted Egyptian air force in 1967, the invincible Syrian jets over Lebanon, the Mother of All Battles--and the Republican Guard that proved about as fearsome as Xerxes' Immortals at Thermopylae.

A beleaguered Arafat now wildly works his Rolodex for support for his autocracy. But history answers cruelly that strongmen in their bunkers are as impotent as they are loquacious--and as likely to receive disdain as pity. Moammar Gadhafi was a different man after the American air strike proved his military worthless and his person no longer sacrosanct. The rhetoric of the Taliban in September promised death: in October they and their minions went silent. In wars against bombers and terrorists, the past teaches us that peace comes first through their defeat--not out of negotiations among supposedly well-meaning equals.
We all would prefer, and should strive for, peaceful relations with the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Syrians--and all the other 20-something dictatorships, theocracies, and monarchies of the Middle East--as well as a state for the Palestinians. But the day is growing late: our patience is now exhausted: and sadly an hour of reckoning is nearing for all us all. The problem is, you see, that we know their history far better than they do.

Mr. Hanson, a military historian, is author most recently of "Carnage and Culture" (Doubleday, 2002).
*********
Gunjack: <<Consider; I've been firmly pro-Israeli my entire life, until about a week ago.>> I wonder who influenced that opinion. <<And you DO realize that you commended, without reservation, a post that essentially called for ethnic cleansing?>> Israel defends itself aggressively; Palestine literally calls for the extinction of Jews (not only in the Middle East, but in all the world). Yes, let’s yell at the Israelis for actions that are *perceived* as ethnic cleansing, as opposed to the Palestinians, who openly advocate it. You really want to know how I see this? This is very much like 1940s Germany, the only difference now being that the Jews have the means to stop the ethnic cleansers trying to exterminate them. As a race, I don’t call for the extinction of Palestinians or Muslims or Arabs in general. The culture of the Palestinians (and Muslims, etc.) I’m not terribly fond of, which means I don’t cry too many tears when a terrorist act on their part is met with harsh reactionary measures by the Israelis. <<Furthermore, if the IDF had a sucsess rate of 21.5 / 1, the incidents would stop IMMEDIATELY.>> Unless one was facing an enemy so utterly fanatical that they will not rest until your entire race is dead. And before you get all smartass, when I say “fanatic”, it’s a synonym for “Palestinian”. <<The Japanese went peacefully, were held (to my knowledge) peacefully, and returned peacefully at the conclusion of the war>> I don’t think this is completely correct. <<They were kids throughing rocks killed by rubber bullets>> If a kid did that to me HERE, in the USA, I’d at the least be willing to beat their ass. I’d dodgeball them, Billy Madison-style.
<<Q.Why did the pregnant Palestinian Woman run the roadblock?
A. To get to the hospital on the other side.
She was in labor, and she was shot to death where she stood.>> Vietnam war stories, my father had tons of them. The Vietcong used kids as suicide bombers. Oh, and they would strap bombs to women’s bellies to feign pregnancy. Reach a G.I. camp, and boom. It’s easy to look at this situation and go, “How horrible, they shot a pregnant women!” Unless one of them was a amateur obstetrician, they couldn’t have been entirely sure if it was a fetus or C4 she was smuggling.
And as for the whole argument about how they “shoot first and ask questions later”…..to use a line from Greg, step into reality. One of the things they train ordinary police officers in this country is that if they see a suspect do something suspicious – like reach into a pocket when told not to – the procedure is to shoot the hell out of them. Center mass, aim for the heart. This is why Amadou Diallo (sp?) got shot 41 times when he was reaching for a wallet; it was a bad neighborhood, and the cops had reasonable suspicion to believe it was a weapon. You can cry excessive force all you want, but when dealing with a situation like that, the general principle used is that more force is better than less force and going home in a body bag. Ever hear the expression, “Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6?” And that’s for regular, ordinary, American policemen. I can imagine that Israeli soldiers would be just a little bit more tense at the site of any suspicious activity.
<<So what about another example? A car approaches an IDF roadblock, makes a quick U-turn, and heads the other way. Certianly a suspicious action, but the roadblock was not crossed. An appropriate action would be to stop the car and question the occupants, or perhaps to follow it. The IDF responded by.... Hosing the car with automatic weapons, seriously (perhaps fataly; this happened friday, so all reports are not in) wounding the driver.>> <<The palestinians who died in ambulances were not terrorists. They were not wanted for anything, or even accused of anything, except perhaps of being palestinian. THEY WERE BARRED FROM REACHING MEDICAL TREATMENT, AND DIED SOON THERAFTER.>> In both cases, if I was an Israeli soldier, I’m doing mathematics in my head, figuring out exactly how many explosives can be smuggled in a car that size or an ambulance. I can understand their actions too. Frankly, if I was them, I’d much rather be alive and being condemned by the Gunjacks of the world than run the risk of dying at the hand of a terrorist. <<You fail to see how condemning an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few is dangerous?>> I haven’t talked to every Palestinian in the world, but as a culture, they DO condone terrorism and the death of Jews. Add us Westerners to that too. And if they don’t, than they a) need a much better p.r. firm, and b) need to boot Arafat as their leader, because he’s no one’s spokesman for pax. It’s hardly a “few” Palestinians who are terrorists and / or support terrorism. <<And maybe their confinement to refugee camps, their legal status as second-class citizens, and the fact that Israelis hate them as much as they hate the israelis might have just a TEENSY bit of an impact on their attempt to do just that?>> Jews are the least of the people who hate the Palestinians and treat them as second class citizens. At least it could be argued that the Jews have a good reason to hate Palestinians; the other Arab countries view them (the Palestinians) as less than the dirt under their fingernails, with basically no excuse, since they all share the same basic ethnicity. <<On the countrary, Israel CREATED that problem by SEIZING THEIR HOMES AND LAND. Think, if you will, about what would happen to the US economy if we were suddenly stripped of all homes, real-estate, and infrastructure (factories, power plants, etc.).>> Somehow your argument fails to move me when it defends a terrorist culture. The land was conquered in response to acts of war upon Israel. If the majority of Palestinians did not support those actions or continue to support them, than Israel would have probably been long gone and this whole situation would have been resolved. And who’s gonna take away our land? The Canadians? <<In any event, I probably owe an apology to SJ for my intemperate comment.>> It was interesting to see you that angry. I never look for apologies, BTW. <<And in other news, maybe SJ was right. Maybe art majors ARE the only ones who disagree with Israel.>> We both should know who I was referring too. Maybe I got her major wrong. OOPS, I’ve said too much.

Lain: <<AAAAARGH!!!! GUNJACK HAS INFILTRATED MY BRAAAAAAIN!!!!!>> Reverse the subject and direct object of that sentence, and I totally believe you.

Aaron: <<First, the state of Israel is a make-up for the fact that the Western world failed to discover or care what Hitler was up to in the 30s. Where was international opinion, and the wonderful concern I see for the "poor Palestinians" then?>> So very, very true. The Jews were probably lucky that the UN did THAT much. <<They *had* their own country. When Israel opened for business in 1948, there was a soverign Palestinian state right next door. But that wasn't good enough for the Arabs, so they attacked Israel the day after the UN pulled out. The result? Israel doubles in size.>> Exactly. The Palestinians made a mistake that they’re still paying for, but it was THEIR mistake. <<There is no such thing as ethnic Palestinians. Ethnically, they're Arabs.>> Right. When I talk of Palestinians, I talk in terms of culture, not race. <<Fourth, SJ was right when he said it isn't about the land.>> Thank ye. <<Fifth, Islam, despite my Libyan Pol-Sci 1053 teacher's claims to the contrary, is a violent religion, spread by fire and the sword.>> Do I have the balls to agree with you on this point? I’ll say yes. Not ALL Islamics, of course, but that particular religion does foster a culture that is extremely negative to other religions / societies. They seem to enjoy calling for a lot of holy wars upon us. I don’t see too many Christians doing that, and the Catholic priests are too busy going to NAMBLA meetings. <<Eigth, the differenc between the IDF and the Gestapo is that the Gestapo preyed on an ethnic minority who had never done anything to the country's ethnic majority, whereas the IDF go after people who are criminals, who *happen* to be ethnic minorities.>> Ding ding ding, ring the bell. The Jews didn’t do anything to incite the Holocaust (except in Hitler’s paranoid delusions); the Palestinians, as a culture / nation (not as an ethnicity) are bringing about their own destruction through their refusal to cease terrorist operations. <<If Arafat were genuinly concerned for the people he represents, he'd tell them to quit blowing themselves up, and start working on getting them fed, housed, and clothed.>> That would mean he’d actually have to *gasp* be responsible for his people and their actions. <<Tenth, and here we come back to my first point. Pointing fingers and saying "Well, they started it." may seem childish, but, in this case, it's true. The Isralies didn't create this situation. You say repressive tactics by the Isralies create Palestinian terrorists. Wrong. Palestinian terrorists create repressive tactics by the Isralies, by making them afraid every Palestinian is, in fact, a terrorist. Had the Palestinians not attacked Israel that fateful day back in '48, the Isralies wouldn't have jurisdiction over them in the first place. In short, the Palestinians fucked with the wrong people, and now they can reap the whirlwind.>> I could not put it any better.

Shadowrider: <> I’m gonna assume you’re referring to me.

You should be more careful at throwing out names & accusations like that, because I could just as easily call you and lain and Gunjack anti-Semite Jew-haters. Would I be right to throw out a label like that? No. And hey, neither are you.

Patrick: <<For some reason, the phrase "throwing rocks at a hornet's nest" seems applicable to a number of the ongoing discussions.>> I wonder if there’s a correlation between that, and me posting in here again. ;)

Selanit: <<Just popping in with a quick question. Do we have any idea when new TGS eps will be released?>>

You asked the forbidden question.

Greg: <<As for why I support Israel, Though I'm an Atheist, I still consider myself to be Jewish, only without the faith. Half my family is Jewish, and the majority of my friends are Jewish.>>

There seems to be a difference here.

If you are of Jewish descent, you know damn well that it is NOT ABOUT LAND.

Otherwise, you think this is all about a bunch of sand in the desert.

Wrong. It’s about sand in the desert THAT HAS JEWS ON IT. And therein lies the trouble.

Aaron, again: <<so they attacked Israel the day after the UN pulled out. The result? Israel doubles in size>> I love this too. See, some people are bitching and moaning because Israel occupies most of the land that belonged to Palestine….and yes, it’s clichéd to use the old argument of “they started it first!”, but the situation was that Israel had its land, Palestine had its land, and Israel didn’t increase land size UNTIL they were attacked. So Israel said, okay, you want to start shenanigans, we’re gonna conquer your nation.

Works for me. It’s not Palestine’s land anymore. Israel conquered it, fair and square. It sucks, sure, but no one asked the Palestinians to attack Israel in the first place.

Now some people have criticized that line of thinking – “Oh, so you think might makes right!” Sometimes; often it does, in the sense that it’s how we have to function in this world. You HAVE to be the biggest, baddest, meanest sumbitch on the block if you want to survive. But the important difference here between Israel conquering Palestinian land and, say, Iraq invading Kuwait, is that Israel was never the aggressor (unlike Iraq) UNTIL Palestine (and the other Arabs) began an assault upon them. They didn’t want the fight, but hey, they won it so they might as well enjoy the spoils of war.

I am becoming quite the Zionist in my later years.

Josh: God, do I feel for you. Is that what Berkeley is like year round? I don’t know how anyone passes the courses, what with all of the protests going on.

Sevarius Jr. - [sevariusjr@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 11:21:57 PM
IP: 207.172.11.147

Can anyone recommend some good Gargoyles fan fiction to read? I need a little break and am having Garg Fic withdrawal symptoms *~_~* yeek!!!

What's good to read, and if you can, a short blurb about why you like it. Stuff I like best of course has been Madame Destine and Christine, plus Pauena, Allaine, of course Princess Alexandra's *sweet* "30 Days"... Something where Demona or Fox is the main character would be favored. Doesn't have to be NC17, but that's always a nice plus.

Any suggestions?

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 11:00:47 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Greetings all...

Being work is still work, I haven't had much time to post lately, and considering all the stuff flying around, it didn't seem relevant to do so anyway... but, now that I'm through my long week of torture, I can at least go with the quintesential Cleese quote: "And Now for Something completely Different..."

COMICS - Recently got back to the old comic shop frequented by the two brothers I knew back in college, and surprised as heck to see that they had not only the new G.I.Joe comic SJ mentioned some time back, but a NEW Transformers comic as well! The TF comic takes place 20 years after the original G1 series (Generation 1, for those that don't keep up with all things Transfan). Within the first few pages, we see two humans squished to bloody pulp, and I had the grace to comment "Holy $#!@, this isn't like the cartoon!"... Also loved the new Joe comic (I have all the original first prints of issues 1-5.)... great to see Duke, Flint, Shipwreck (LOVE that sailor guy!), and all the Old guard Joes showing up. Although they sort of gave Bazooka the shaft (he ended up an overweight security guard), and from what I saw Alpine was no where in sight. The capper had to be the tension between Snake-Eyes and Scarlett... won't reveal too much, but DAIYUM!

WRITING NEWS - Going to see about a new market just popped up. Stalled on my vampire novella, but I plan to get that back on track.

OTHER NEWS - Tomorrow is a day unlike any other... aprox. 33 years ago, I preceded my sister into the living world by about 59 seconds, so as such I shall be celebrating with the traditional 20-dollar Steak Dinner.

Yep, tis my sister and I's birthday... and as luck would have it, I have three days off, starting tomorrow to celebrate.

IN CLOSING - To whoever posted that TGS comment about the mailing list... a good idea, but to sort of offer some consolence to the TGS depraved, I recommend watching out for the next issue of Avalon Mists... we have something in the works that is TGS related (though obviously not officially part of them, so it's all indie) that hopefully will fulfill the gap between now until the new official season of TGS arrives.

Just some news from your friendly neighborhood Zine editor...

And in a related note, what does anyone think of the trailers for the new Spider Man Movie?

Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616@yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 07:06:59 PM
IP: 65.35.129.166

Shinigami> Actually, I am Mexican, with some Aztec blood ;). So my people didn't do sh!t 8D.
metaldemon
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 06:56:23 PM
IP: 24.219.166.91

*walks in, replacing the sanity jar to it's old spot, a little less full from the trip* There.

I'm curious what the obsession with Bishansky-kun is, lately? Did I miss out on the latest fad?

metaldemon::And here is a secular argument that I made. If the Native American population uprose and tried to take back the land that was theirs, would you support them. Cuz based on your arguments, it sounds like you would. It was their land 2,000 years ago, so why shouldn't the try to take it back?

I'd like to see them try, seeing how "you people"(I'm Puerto Rican, and have some Taino blood in me)nearly killed them all to extinction.

Then again, I'm good friends with some Tineh (called Apache) , I'll ask em if they wanna start something. ;)
Shinigami
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 06:37:31 PM
IP: 172.142.72.205

Do you know were is Rose. She is so dead. She thinks she can fall in love with Greg. I don't think so.
Lee
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 06:32:51 PM
IP: 152.163.201.202

Another short one...

Niamhgold:> Good to see you again, my friend. I am sorry to hear that your arms are still giving you troubles. No need to thank me for the wishes, it is the minimum I can do. Did you get the song? ;) See you soon, and in better shape, I hope!

Lain:> Thank you for the info. Sounds like an interesting series, I just hope some day it will arrive here in Italy as well. Just a couple years ago, such an eventuality was going to appear very remote, but now situation is improving...in two years, series like Cowboy Bebop, Inu Yasha, Trigun, and most of all Neon Genesis Evangelion, have arrived in my contry, with a very good dubbing and adaptation, and high quality supports; and, new series keep on being published. So, there is an actual chance I will be able to see it in times not too biblical. <<if you have an instant messenger with file transferring capability, i can send you the eps that i have, along with the *7 minute* music video i am working on for it :)>> You are kind in offering, but unluckily my IM has not this capability. Thank you the same. :)

Gunjack Valentine:> <<... you've certianly got balls... >> Some people discovered it in the worst way.
<<In any case, a pleasure reading.>> Glad you liked it.

Josh:> <<The thought that any one of us represents this CR is scary, but true nonetheless.>> It is not "any one". We are talking about those who are supposed to oversee this place. Their support to the racist ideas of someone gives to those same ideas an "official" imprimatur, what I can hardly tolerate.
<> All the *actual* soldiers I've known told me more or less the same thing: that few prices are too high to avoid a war. Now, I can accept that a pacifist refuses to wear a uniform...it is coherency in his case. Seeing people asking and invoking a war that they will then refuse to fight, instead...

Nothing more for now. Good night everyone.

"Io sono come Dio / E gli uomini li rifarei / come ora / occhi per non vedere / bocche per non parlare / meglio così..."

"Se la terra è tonda / e se il mare è blu / da che mondo è mondo / il forte vince e non sei tu..."

"Nessuno salvò nessuno con la spada."
Shadowrider - [shdwrdr@tiscali.it]
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 06:14:22 PM
IP: 62.10.19.5

<<Did you know that Rose is a dead woman when I get her. So do you know were she is.>>

Now that I have her phone number, I think I'll call her up. And tell her to kill herself. Sort of a reverse "suicide hotline" (apologies to Chuck Palahniuk for tealing this joke).

<<Hey Josh I think that she is in love with you.>>

I'll go all crazy and predict that he doesn't reciprocate the affection.

<<Or Greg I'm not happy with that.>>

That she likes Greg? Well she might as well, she won't get anything off of Josh.

<<She only 12 years old. >>

REALLY? Well then, I'm interested now. Maybe I will call her.

Real post later tonight. And be FOREWARNED, Mooncat, it'll be long again.
Sevarius Jr. - [sevariusjr@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 05:54:25 PM
IP: 207.172.11.147

::gets poked by Lain:: Thanks for responding to my email.

::DPH looks around and spots DisHarmony in a dark corner of the CR. DisHarmony spots DPH and grins at him:: In honor of what's going on in the CR, I chose the image I did because who the image is a picture of.

I would like to start my post by pointing CR rule #2: No flames.

::DPH snaps his fingers and 120 armed guards materialize around him, forming an 11 by 11 square, with DPH at the center.::

Sorry, I felt extra security was necessary before I start to reach the meat of this post. Oh yea, I still need to take one more security precautions. ::DPH whistles and a fire proof suit appears. DPH walks inside of it and it completely surrounds him::

Now, I think I am prepared to make this post.

**BABYLON 5 QUESTION**
Complete this quote: "____ is a three edged sword. There's their side, your side, then there's the truth."
**END BABYLON 5 QUESTION**

Let me see if I understand the facts (no opinions): To the Palestians, it's about WHO owns the land. To the Israelis, it's about having a homeland and living in peace. Aside from being removed from their homes, there is no distinct culture of being "Palestinian" that is not Arabic. The prime minister of Israel believes the ends justify the means when it comes to protecting Israeli citizens. Arafet has been supporting terrorism against Israel.

I will consider name-calling directed at me to be a personal attack when I only ask what the facts are.

Imzadi - <Okay, do people just ignore system requirements!? what do they think they're there for, decoration!?> To me, system requirements mean "in theory, with the bare-bone requirements listed below, this software could work." If I don't exceed those requirements, I won't consider buying the software. <How else would you debate?> With valid arguments and facts supporting my side.

Shaherezad - What was that post about?

Lila: <Classes before ten should be outlawed> Next thing I know, you'll be suggesting classes after 3pm should be outlawed.

Metaldemon - <And here is a secular argument that I made. If the Native American population uprose and tried to take back the land that was theirs, would you support them?> Of course, the answer has to be no, or the US government might as well declare bankrupcy. Wait a minute, we can pass some of the blame to the French who sold us land (Louisana Purchase) they did not own. So the French government would have to fork over some money too. Then, Great Britain would have to pay up for establishing colonies which lead the American Indians being displaced.
DPH
AR, USA
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 05:11:22 PM
IP: 204.94.193.33

Hi!!!! everyone.
Did you know that Rose is a dead woman when I get her. So do you know were she is. Hey Josh I think that she is in love with you. Or Greg I'm not happy with that. She only 12 years old.
Lee
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 04:46:33 PM
IP: 152.163.201.198

Ok!! you win. My name is Rose there are you happy. Now get off my f***ing back. I try to be nice but you acted like a fu**ing baby.
Anonymous
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 03:59:38 PM
IP: 152.163.201.198

Josh> I agree with you there, but I say that we should still make comments on them and how stupid they are being by being anonymous and continue giving out their #s and emails if they continue posting anonymously..... *mischievious grin*

Lila> thats kewl and you cant really be a Virgin again just because you are seeing it somewhere different....if that had been the case, everyone in the audience would've been virgins when Rocky Horror started playing in Nashville back in January.... *grins* though if you really wanted to, you could pose as a Virgin again....although I find it funny to watch the Virgins get deVirginized....what they did last March at the Belcourt theater in Nashville was quite interesting...

well, gotta head to my theatre class....Ja... *fades away into thin air*
Gavin - [gabinu@furinkanhigh.com]
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 12:53:13 PM
IP: 161.45.210.171

Moochie> I still fail to see the irony. And, unlike you, I take absolutly no pleasure in arguing every topic that comes in reach, and I have neither the time or energy to do this properly even if I did, so I'm opting out.

Back to the important things in life, like the NBA playoff race and Baldur's Gate II. ;)

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 12:51:10 PM
IP: 209.33.140.101

::Niamhgold enters briefly::

Hey, all, figured i'd drop in a line and say i'm still alive ((contrary to popular belief) and that i'll still be out for a while longer. Thanks to Shadowrider for the wishes he's been sending; sorry i haven't been able to talk much ;) I'll be getting tested for a bunch of stuff to see what's causing my pain in my arms, and in the meanwhile i'm taking incomplete leave from school.

The rest of you, take care...i'll be back eventually!
Adios
Niamhgold
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 11:54:42 AM
IP: 206.41.204.144

Josh> <<the reverse cannot be said>>
Oh. I guess you know from experiance. I just hope another Islamic woman in labor doesn't go down the Jewish road, else she might get shot.

Greg B.> I have told you repeatedly that my argument is entirely theological. Yet you treat it like it's secular.
And here is a secular argument that I made. If the Native American population uprose and tried to take back the land that was theirs, would you support them. Cuz based on your arguments, it sounds like you would. It was their land 2,000 years ago, so why shouldn't the try to take it back?

metaldemon
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 11:51:53 AM
IP: 129.120.255.198

patrick>> you want funny place names? check newfoundland.. they have a place called "conception bay".. which is right over by, you know, "blow me down", "dildo", and "come-by-chance."
no, im not kidding, though recently they had an election in dildo because they wanted to change the towns name. yes, they changed it, to "*SOUTH* dildo".. yeah, THAT helps :P

;)
lain
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 11:11:37 AM
IP: 64.228.193.155

Got nothing to contribute to the current discussion (sometimes ignorance _is_ bliss <g>). So it's early, I just got up, and I'll ramble for a bit.

Off to Vancouver B.C. for a couple of days -- last time we went was when we found the Gargoyles Puzz-3Ds, pogs, yo-yo, and other cool stuff that wasn't sold in the US, so I'll be looking.

Mom is up for a visit. Yesterday, we went to the Tulip Festival despite the fact that the unexpected snowfall a few weeks ago put a bit of a damper on the tulip crop. Still, we had a lovely day for it and there were some tulips to look at. Sadly, the commemorative bed that was supposed to resemble an American flag only had the reds and whites partly open so the effect was somewhat lacking.

Just saw Gina from SurvIVor on Rosie (not my fault; the TV was on and I couldn't find the remote). Rosie wants to send her on an Alaskan cruise the same time she's sending Hunter on an Alaskan cruise, woo-woo!

Book news > heard from my editor on ElfLore II; she expects the edits to be a breeze, she wants to release Truegold in December (I better finish it!), she definitely wants the next trilogy (ThiefLore, in which we'll learn One-Eye's backstory, how Tahm Sabledrake rescued his wife, and what kind of mischief Cat and Arien's son can get into following in his mother's footsteps). AND she is interested in publishing Black Roses! So I'm set and comfy for a while here.

Stuff for Sabledrake is coming along. For some reason, we got listed with an outfit called Cartoon Opportunities. Wrongly so: they had us as a paying, print market. So I was getting a flood of queries and submissions from cartoonists totally out of the blue, and had to find out what was going on. I found out we're not the first ones to be erroneously put in this newsletter thingie, and it's starting to really annoy the artists. But on the plus side, one of them said what the heck, we can use his cartoons anyway. On a more eldritch note, somehow the wacky guys on Pyramid got into a spate of Cthulhu-filking and are letting me collect those for Sabledrake too.

So Mom's up, and we're reading the paper, and one of the advice columnists answers a letter from someone who can't stand her stepfather and doesn't want to have to be responsible for his funeral expenses. Donate the body to science, says Ann or Abby or Heloise or Miss Manners or whoever (well, it probably wasn't Miss Manners). And I'm all, "Aha!" thinking about my uncle. And another family announcement -- my sister, who has gone through phases of veganism and alternative lifestyles, is now preggers by a guy who hunts. I'm to be an auntie again! Mom has officially retracted her big speech about wanting more grandkids ; )

People are finally starting to stir, so we'll be loading the car and heading for the border soon. Bye, folks!

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 10:59:39 AM
IP: 67.226.47.125

I've been lurking for a while after reading this, I feel I need to speak. Hang on to your jockeys shorts because I'm not loving the Israeli forces.

First, how effective has the IDF been. You this cycle of you hit me, I'll hit you back harder, has been going on for a year and a half. And you know what, I haven't heard of terrorist leader being captured nor a netowrk of terroism unmasked. Of course, the IDF doesn't expain anything to the public press, but I'll get to that a little later. I've heard a lot of people both in the CR and elsewhere say this is to fight terrorism, but I've not seen proof nor results. To the casual observe, it seems like Israel is using the boogeyman of terrorism as license to grind a few axes.

I question their methods, particularly the way the Israeli forces have been treating the media. I always get suspicious when bullets are fired directly at clearly marked news vans or when access is denied for concerns of control not safety.

No one is innocent here, there's more than enough blame to go around, but this isn't about blame, this is about fixing the problem. And the problem is not religion. I agree the problem is about land, about politics both locally and on the world stage, but religion has little to do with it. I don't see military occupation fixing the problem. I don't see suicide bombings fixing the problem. I don't see Bush's plan as fixing the problem. And I don't see killing everyone in sight fixing the problem. I would recommend focusing energy on solving the problem. (I'm an ex-engineer. I problem-solve.)

Well, I beter gird up in my flame-retardant undies. I await your flames.
Taleweaver - [loremaster27@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 09:10:02 AM
IP: 24.205.118.88

Quick random comments:

Even with decimal statistics, doesn't a suicide bomber, by definition, always kill a number of people equal to or greater than one?

"There's a city in Israel called Demona." - And there's a town in Pennsylvania called Intercourse, but I still don't want to move there. :P

Josh > "This summer, I will be a nuclear engineer." - Now there's one job where the goal is NOT to attain a glowing review. ;) But say hi to Lenny, Carl, and Mr. Burns for me. ;)

Mooncat > I'd have to say I find your art and fanfic anything but irrelevant. :: scratches behind the ears ::

Time for work now. :: bounces out ::

"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is NOT the sport for you." - George Carlin

Patrick Toman
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 07:07:37 AM
IP: 66.72.203.92

Just popping in with a quick question. Do we have any idea when new TGS eps will be released?

I'll bet you get this question a lot, and probably everybody's sick of answering it. May I suggest a mailing list? You could sign up on the TGS web page for notification when the series starts up again.

Anyway, I have a paper to be writing, so I'll quit procrastinating (Gah . . . I have to come up with 5+ pages of reasonably intelligent material on Kafka's "Metamorphosis." I detested the story, so the paper is NOT going well. It is, in fact, one day overdue and only about 80% done. I hope to finish it in the next couple of hours.)
Selanit - [public@atuan.com]
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 07:06:26 AM
IP: 128.138.35.56

Another long day. Spent most of it looking for the TA's to help me on the various homeworks I have due this week. Of course, none were available at any semblance of a convenient time. I was *finally* able to get the help that I needed and finish that screwy transportation engineering assignment. I swear, 2 problems should not take 20 hours. It's just not right. At least I know I never want to do *that*.

My structural engineering assignment is still not done either. I love how our professor doesn't let us so much as nap after a midterm. The problem set easily made up for the fact that we didn't have a lab, and then some.

I was, however, able to send in my acceptance to GE today. This summer, I will be a nuclear engineer. Maybe I wasn't supposed to say that, I dunno. If they shoot me, you'll know why.

I vote to ignore anonymous posters.

replies.

Lady Mystic: <<Sorry for all the delays>>: I wasn't aware you were on a schedule. <>: Congrats! I love the feeling of accomplishment that comes with finally being hired. <<I'm in my last week of training and will soon be an Email Rep handling sales and customer service via email (with telephone sales on the side>>: HAHAHAHA. Tech support can be really painful, so stay calm. I recommend a stiff drink nearby at all times. My "training" for my tech support job consisted of a 5 minute intro to the database and then they threw me into a call. Kinda of scary.

Archwolf: <<You know, i really hate stupid people?>>: Of course you do, you're a geek. It comes with the territory. <>: Okay, do people just ignore system requirements!? what do they think they're there for, decoration!? <<She's not administrator...I AM>>: Why are you admin on her computer? <<i'm still working through the core campaings, figure everyone out. Maybe then>>: K. I'll have some free evenings this summer, I'm sure. <<I'm going to be throwing in a nother 1.25 Gb DDR2100 soon>>: That is a great investment. It still annoys me that Macs don't support DDR yet, but I can't say that I've wanted my computer to be any faster...yet 8-) <<my 10 gig is pathetic>>: I always go for the smallest HD when I buy a computer, because that is where the companies rip the customers off the most. It's cheaper to buy and install it myself elsewhere. It was 4 gigs in my old laptop, now 40 in my tower. Even after adding a 2nd 40, I still want more. I mean, I need space for all my porn! <<especiall concidering you pay no shipping, and it comes with lifetime warranty>>: Most places offer the latter, but I've never heard the former. Free shipping!? That's awesome. That considerably alters the price scale. Who do they ship via? <<for all that OSX is BSD, I'm still not comfortable with Mac interface>>: I can understand that. It's a bit of a switch from windows. But you can't compare the old Apple's to the current mac interface. Hell, OS 9 is a so dramatically different from OS X its unbelievable. Most of my friends have downloaded X11 environments as well so they can run all their linux progs. <<monitor just went to the top of the list of things to get>>: After this 17" LCD, I don't think I'll be able to afford a monitor for a while. <<_You_ are the only one to get this in on time?>>: Naturally, you are the engineer of the group. <>: At least it pays.

Spacebabie: <<A chocolate bar the size of the monolith from 2001 is set before Josh>>: It'll take a lot more than an imaginary chocolate bar to shut me up. <<hopefully it might cool the posts down a bit.>>: Nope. <<You need to learn two things>>: 1) Where the door is and 2) how to walk through it. <<Thou shalt not piss off the administrators.>>: Its hard to keep those commandments when the admins are egging them on. <<No Silicone is bad, use saline instead>>: Did you see the movie "Breast Men"? <<they tend to go up faster since they have all that hemp and their heads are like hollow wood>>: LOL! I have to try that here. <<Just hope that some of your classes are not too limited.>>: well, most upper division CivE courses are 50-75 people. Fortunately, there are only about 100 students in my class. <<Sorry I was asuming the hippies since you go to Berkley and all>>: Yeah, but you also have to remember that its a public school. <<Not me. In fact I want a reduction>>: I forbid it. Unless you have back problems.

Lain: <<to he fair, he might not have realized it was the top ten>>: Who cares? Since when is posting banned during the top ten? <<some of us (no names mentioned *ahem*) just like to pick fights over every/anything we think will be a bone of contention>>: You talkin' to me?! You wanna start something?! ;-) <<and temple prostitutes.. lets not forget the temple prostitutes>>: Like anyone could ever forget prostitutes. <>: I read part of it. I can't read that much without a nap. <<descendants of ham>>: They were pigs? <<taking all the available suicide bombing statistics for the whole of 2001>>: But that's just suicide bombings. What about the shootings? What about the car bombs? The roadside attacks? <<the average "serious" palestinian terrorist attack against israel has killed 0.022 israelis>>: How many palestinians does the average israeli terrorist attack kill? I don't have a problem with your statistics, believe it or not. I just think that you're skewing them to suggest that Palestinian terrorism is somehow more fair/balanced/generous than Israeli retaliatory military action.

Metaldemon: <<as can see, Jews think Jesus is a crack-pot>>: It takes a lot more than walking on water to impress the Jews! David Blane does that crap all the time.

Greg X: <<Though I'm an Atheist, I still consider myself to be Jewish, only without the faith. Half my family is Jewish, and the majority of my friends are Jewish>>: This is really hard to explain to a non-jew, but I understand where you're coming from. <<I'm glad no one held this attitude during World War II>>: Germany would be the size of Russia.

Aaron: <<so they attacked Israel the day after the UN pulled out. The result? Israel doubles in size>>: I love that. Every time Israel gets attacked, they punish their attackers by taking more and more land. Sounds reasonable to me. <<It's about the fact that *Jews* have the land>>: So true. <<Jewish martyrs get nailed to things by corrupt authorities. Islamic martyrs die killing the enemies of Allah. See a difference?>>: The later are psychos, while the former are just looneys? <<forty virgins>>: Woohoo! <<Palestinian terrorists create repressive tactics by the Isralies, by making them afraid every Palestinian is, in fact, a terrorist>>: Palestinians don't walk down the street, see an Israeli, and worry that they're carrying dynamite on their chest. The reverse cannot be said. <<the Palestinians fucked with the wrong people, and now they can reap the whirlwind>>: Good call. <<There's a city in Israel called Demona>>: SWEET!

Shadowrider: <<not only he wasn't, but he got full support by the very people who are supposed to make the rules respected>>: No, you aren't misunderstanding. You are absolutely correct in your assessment. <<a person who happens to randomly visit this CR, could believe that this person's ideas are the "official" line of thinking of the CR>>: The thought that any one of us represents this CR is scary, but true nonetheless. <<have you ever noticed how often the fiercest supporters of "total war, total destruction" are people who have never worn a uniform even for one single day of their life (the vice versa is not always true, though), and who have no intention to wear it in future?>>: I often notice that the people against war are the people who have never worn a uniform and don't want to wear one. Neither is a just argument.

Mooncat: <<Rape the land of it's wealth and value, then blast it to glass and move on>>: That's not a bad idea. But it would piss off even more people than it would help. <<If the kids can't share a toy, and end up fighting over it endlessly... smash the toy>>: That's silly. Just take the toy away. No need to waste money.

Gunjack: <<we're basing those claims on ALL TERROR ATTACKS FROM 1987 TO THE PRESENT>>: Then why did Lain say "suicide bombings in 2001"? <<at least examine the evidence presented before accusing people of having their heads up their butts>>: I tried to do that. I can only work with what you people give me.

Leo: <<sitting among (true) females wearing nothing but black lacy panties, nylons,... garders,.....and halter tops....*deep breath* for 5 31/2hr shows......*sigh*>>: That's always nice when the females are attractive. When they're not...RUN! <<a LIBERAL ARTS MAJOR!! It took me 61/2 years to graduate>>: Wow, you must be slower than the average liberal arts major.

DPH: <<assume everybody has the same desires and experiences as you. Therefore, if they disagree with you, they must be stupid>>: How else would you debate?

Lila: <<Classes before ten should be outlawed>>: I agree very much. Too bad I'm up by 8 every morning. <<As should guy friends who decide not to be guy FRIENDS anymore>>: if they were outlawed, we'd never get laid. <<DO IT OUTRIGHT LIKE A NORMAL PERSON AND DON'T BE MY BUDDIE TO TRY TO GET IN MY PANTS!>>: How else would we get into your pants? <<at a "true" prdoduction out in Long Beach or wherever else it plays>>: When I'm in LA, I like to hit the Santa Monica show. Right off the 405 Santa Monica Exit. Nuart Theatre. <<Without them we wouldnt have... uh... wouldn't have...>>: French fry scoopers. <<WHY ride a mechanical bull?>>: Training, apparently. <<I'm taking over Frank or Majenta next year>>: Are you gonna be a Magenta or a Moo-genta?

And now, an appropriate quote for Lila...

I bet you lost your viginity to a mechanical bull.
-Stewie, Family Guy

Josh "Imzadi" Wurzel - [@kicktothenuts.com]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 02:56:31 AM
IP: 64.161.24.226

Tired. I hate Mondays. Classes before ten should be outlawed. As should guy friends who decide not to be guy FRIENDS anymore. **mini rant: IF YOU'RE GONNA HIT ON ME, DO IT OUTRIGHT LIKE A NORMAL PERSON AND DON'T BE MY BUDDIE TO TRY TO GET IN MY PANTS!!!Grrrr!** Maybe the comment room will lend solace...
Replies:
Gavin- I wanna go to Rocky again, but this time, at a "true" prdoduction out in Long Beach or wherever else it plays. (Can I be a Virgin for that too?)
Gunjack- Dang. I got taken in by his dashing good looks and intelligence. Canya blame a girl? <painting you as a genocidal psycho> when the genus is "dormus antius invadus", I have no mercy. <coincedence? you decide> Be nice to the art majors. Without them we wouldnt have... uh... wouldn't have...hmm...
Gside- Too MANY shots of... Humph. I love David Bowie!! He was the best part of the movie!!! And I focused on his face. Er, I mean his acting... certainly not his pants... no no. <mmm> mmm? <But does the uselessness of the information change because someone is there who recognizes it for what it is?> YES!!! A prof can spout whatever bs he wants until someone calls him on it, that's your responsibility... or just do it in your essays.
Josh-<Kinky. I bet you were the most popular girl at the party after that.> which neatly answers my father's questio; WHY ride a mechanical bull?;-)<Worse, I have an evil prof> ::shudder:: preferable only to an idiotic prof...
<Welcome to college. It sucks> So pessimistic! Although I've yet to register for fall, I will get the classes I need, because I won't settle for less. Ouch on that seven hour assignment... that sucks.
Leo- Don't overglorify the Rocky Horror idea as funded by a school... Imagine equal oppertunity casting... that is to say, even those who SHOULDN'T be in corsets were, and the whole "no neck" phenomenon was even MORE accurate. ::shudders violently in memory:: Needless to say, I'm taking over Frank or Majenta next year.
Mooncat-<tako> Aw... stick to pastries and raw fish that isn't awesome when it's living. (ew, I sound so hemp and cotton fiber)
Anonymous- I beg you to try to use SOME grammar when posting... I'm usually a *nice* person, but it's been driving me nuts, and hey, even I (total comment room rookie) have the proverbial cojones to use my name. Try it sometime, then they'll quit yelling at you.
Shaherezad-<Ever have a day when you feel completely lonely?> I miss those days. I live in a dorm, and a note on your door saying "I'm sick/busy/asleep/working" is somehow interpreted to mean "Come bother/care for/wake/distract me" ::rolls eyes:: Appreciate those moments, for when they're gone...<the one thing that will bring life to peace> death? Don't search for death. It'll find YOU. ;-)
::exits feeling much better, does Magic Dance, glides into bed::

Lila - [Liejones@yahoo.com]
LA, CA, USA
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 02:40:04 AM
IP: 134.173.120.15

Badda Bing.

Aaron - Howdy. They say I should be afraid.
<> Perhaps I should illuminate.

***Quote***
SJ: "It’s in his words, but I agree with them completely."

"[With] animals like this, war is not a question of “if” but when. It will come down to a matter of “them” or “us.”"

"...the whole civilized world MUST eliminate these vermin and scour the world of their presence..."

"...Some people say that there are “innocent civilians.” Bullshit! Every one of these “innocents” is out to kill..." ...anyone not like them."

Aaron: Actually, SJ just said pretty much what I wanted to say, and in a more conscise, well-reasoned mannor. But then, I'm only an nth percent Jewish. Juuuuuuuust Jewish enough to have been sent to the death camps.
***End Quote***

See the irony yet? I'm pretty sure everyone else does...

On to your points.

<<First, the state of Israel is a make-up for the fact that the Western world failed to discover or care what Hitler was up to in the 30s.>> This explanation covers the gift of the land to Israel, but it does nothing to answer the accusations of Israeli oppression. The Jews were slaughtered unjustly, but that does NOT give them the right to slaughter others unjustly without repercussions.

<<When Israel opened for business in 1948, there was a soverign Palestinian state right next door. But that wasn't good enough for the Arabs, so they attacked Israel the day after the UN pulled out. The result? Israel doubles in size.>> Again, a perfectly valid arguement for why the Israelis own the land they do. And again, it does nothing to justify the way they have treated the inhabitants. When the allies captured germany in WWII, the germans probably didn't like them much. That doesn't mean that it would have been alright to shoot a few for kicks.

<> A somewhat better arguement. Unfortunately, the point is that the Palestinians LIVED there, and had their homes and land taken from them without compensation. Nothing encourages nationalism like having your homes stolen from you, eh wot?
In this case, national unity becomes something of a post-humous affair.

<<Fourth, SJ was right when he said it isn't about the land. It's about the fact that *Jews* have the land.>> This may be true, but you offer NO evidence to support your assertion. Repeat after me: "evidence is a GOOD thing!"

<<Fifth, Islam, despite my Libyan Pol-Sci 1053 teacher's claims to the contrary, is a violent religion, spread by fire and the sword.>> I happen to agree, but what does this have to do with the issue at hand? Or are you backing up SJ's statement that muslims should be "eliminated" and that the earth must be "scoured of their presence"?

<<Sixth, when it comes to Jerusalem, and the control thereof, one of the major sticking points in this conflict, the Arabs don't have a leg to stand on. Jerusalem isn't sacred to Islam and it never has been.>> ...Which is why the Dome of the Rock Mosque is there? *shrugs*

<<Tired of getting shelled for harboring terrorists? Stop harboring them. Simple equation.>> Picked this sentence, because it seems to be the core of the point.
In essence, you're saying that since the palestinians all agree with the POV of the terrorists, they should all be TREATED like terrorists? Am I correct?
If so, this is not only a flagrant violation of justice, but also an extremely inefficient strategy. What you are describing is a reprisal, not a counterterror operation. A reprisal is the killing of a third party to demoralize your enemy, and is DEFINAELY a terror tactic.
Incidentally, reprisals were noted characteristics of the Nazi occupation force in France during WWII, and of the Veit Cong in South Vietnam.

<<You say Sharon is a fascist dictator, trying to brutally repress an ethnic minority within his borders, somewhere on the level of Saddam Huessin's treatment of the Kurds in northern Iraq.>> Actually, he's NOT on Saddam's level, and I never claimed he was. I simply claimed that Israel is a fascist state. <<I say, the first responsibility of a leader is keeping his people alive and safe. If Arafat were genuinly concerned for the people he represents, he'd tell them to quit blowing themselves up, and start working on getting them fed, housed, and clothed.>> I attacked Sharon, and you responded... So why the heck are you talking about Arafat all of a sudden?
News flash. Arafat is a scumwad. I know it, Lain knows it, MD knows it (I think). Everyone here agrees that arafat IS, in fact, a total crock of S***. Personally, I was calling for his assassination months ago, and I'm pretty much of the same mind now (much to my cohorts' horror).
But we're not talking about Arafat, we're talking about *SHARON*. If you can defend him, please do so. Otherwise, don't try to change the subject.

<<You say repressive tactics by the Isralies create Palestinian terrorists. Wrong. Palestinian terrorists create repressive tactics by the Isralies, by making them afraid every Palestinian is, in fact, a terrorist.>> There's a difference between conventional war and terrorist war. And in any case, Israel had a moral obligation to treat the palestinians with restraint. They blew it, they blew it badly, and they continue to blow it. The actions they take are not nescessary, or even (in many cases) intelligent. What they ARE is needlessly vicious.

<<Eleventh: There's a city in Israel called Demona. 'Nuff said. ;)>> You miscounted.

Shadowrider - Interesting points. I don't know if you're really right or not about your assertions, but you've certianly got balls... In any case, a pleasure reading.

Mooncat><<Off thought -- since neither the side can play nice, why not have a third party just conquor the heck out of the entire area and drive out isreali and palestines alike.>> Certianly not the worst idea put forward lately...

That's about it. As a nightcap, try clicking on the namelink, and reading the article. I'm not too sure about the reliability of Indynews, so let's have a test. Read the article (compiled, apparently, from people who are actually in the middle of the events reported), and then wait a bit and see what the official news services report.

Grinningly yours...
Gunjack "Death to Moochie" Valentine
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 02:16:51 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Ever have a day when you feel completely lonely? And there's nothing that you can do that would push back that cloak of darkness that follows you around? Waxing poetic perhaps. Ahem, I WANT TO BE APRRECIATED!!!! (And yes, no one will listen to me so I'm writing it up here!) Validation...it's about validation...and expression...and..and..and...and a neverending search for the one thing that will bring life to peace.
Shaherezad
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 01:18:28 AM
IP: 207.42.162.199

and josh? if you like, we could use the statistics that were released by IDF chief of staff shaul mofaz yesterday which say that since the beginning of the al-aqsa intifada (which will be one year old next week) the average "serious" palestinian terrorist attack against israel has killed 0.022 israelis. do you like that figure any better? o.O
lain
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 01:04:01 AM
IP: 64.228.193.155

*pokes dph*

i got it, and replied, thanks :)
lain
Tuesday, April 9, 2002 12:02:12 AM
IP: 64.228.193.155

:: peeks in cautiously ::

For some reason, the phrase "throwing rocks at a hornet's nest" seems applicable to a number of the ongoing discussions.

:: lurks back out ::
Patrick Toman
Monday, April 8, 2002 11:35:45 PM
IP: 66.72.203.92

JOSH> The troll's email address is Vickiwillis@aol.com to be exact

Here's the site with the info

http://www.sjsl.org/contact.htm
Greg Bishansky
Monday, April 8, 2002 10:27:02 PM
IP: 216.179.3.178

Anonymous: Be f*cked. Your phone number is (856) 451-2777, and your email address is vickwillis@aol.com. Now go away.
Josh
Monday, April 8, 2002 10:20:19 PM
IP: 64.161.24.226

Lain - Despite your attempts at hiding your email address, I managed to find it. Please check your email.

My sister-in-law talked to my stepmother who afterwards talked to my dad. Then, he complains to me about talking about him behind his back. Sorry, but when talking to a human wall (face-to-face when the moron refuses to listen to you) doesn't work, you have to let the anger out of your system to keep it from building up. Now, I feel betrayed by my sister-in-law so I will have to talk to her about what friendship means. I guess that's why it's easier to talk to complete strangers than people you know: there's less risk of your complaints reaching the person you are complaining about. Also, he demands I tell my sister-in-law I didn't mean what I said about my dad. What kind of moron is that? I will talk to my sister-in-law, but it will be about keeping secrets.

**Dilbert Quotation**
I'like to pull out a Dilbert comic strip from 6-18-1995 (yep, I own a collection of Dilbert comic strips):
Ratbert: I've been invited to be guest on "Crossfire" on CNN. I'm the only creature on Earth who hasn't been on television. Can you teach me how to debate on television, Dogbert?

Dogbert: Okay. First, Ratbert assume everybody has the same desires and experiences as you. Therefore, if they disagree with you, they must be stupid.

Dilbert: I think you're oversimplifying, Dogbert.

Dogbert: What was that opinion, Ratbert?

Ratbert: Stupid!

Dogbert: You're ready for "Crossfire," Ratbert.

Ratbert: I usually like the same movies as the fat one.
**End Dilbert Quotation**

My cats are sheadding hair like . . umm .. really, really bad.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, April 8, 2002 10:04:21 PM
IP: 204.94.193.46

shadowrider>> *grins hugely* thankee! <> Yes yes, its a very spiffy new anime, called "noir". i dont want to give away tooooo much.. but the plot is very interesting, it has a quadralingual soundtrack, and the version i watched was in the original japanese, subtitled in english, but all the signs on the streets, and newspapers were in french, because the whole anime is set in france! anyway, its mostly about these two girls, merille the tall blonde who is about 25 years old or so, and the shorter dark haired one, kirika, who is about 16-18 years old. both are trained assassins, mirelle's parents were killed when she was a little child and kirika has no memory of her past, except she has a watch with two angels with swords on it that belonged to one of mirelles parents.
they make a pact to find out kirikas past, with the agreement that mirelle will kill kirika when they find out the truth (because she doesnt work with people, and would kill kirika now if there wasnt the intrigue)
so they go find out who kirika is, and who killed mirelles parents.
and they do it to goooood techno.
with womens choirs singing in latin and italian.
and its awesome.

that answer your questions?

if you have an instant messenger with file transferring capability, i can send you the eps that i have, along with the *7 minute* music video i am working on for it :)

lain
the Great White North
Monday, April 8, 2002 09:53:29 PM
IP: 64.228.193.155

Hi every one did you have a nice day. So Josh your not sweet or nice at all. I guess my sister was right about you.
And you don't need to know about my name OK!!!
Anonymous
Monday, April 8, 2002 08:36:01 PM
IP: 64.12.103.42

MOONCAT - I don't think that your solution (though you clearly made it more in jest) would go down that well. Since both Jews and Christians view the Holy Land as sacred, for different reasons, they'd be protesting its desecration. Biblical archeologists wouldn't like it either, because of all the information about the past that they'd be forever deprived of.

Although John Milton (of "Paradise Lost" fame), if invited to join in the discussion, "God attributes to place/ No sanctity, if none be thither brought/ By men who there frequent, or therein dwell."
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, April 8, 2002 07:03:23 PM
IP: 168.191.109.56

A short one...

Lain:> <<*steps out in front of him to block flames* >> *gently pushes her back* No worry, there's no need to block flames from me. Simply, flames cannot reach me. Cannot touch me. Cannot harm me. *smiles* But, thank you the same. :)
<quoting> Ok, I admit I was a bit confused at your quoting as I've seen it...I mean, I thought I knew quite well Italian litterature, yet I couldn't identify your lines...not just the work, but even the author. So I made a Google search for it...I didn't know they had used a song in Italian for an anime. Interesting, at least to me...could you give me some more info about the anime? Hmm...well, since we are in topic of quotings...and we are speaking of music..."...Is this the world we created? / We made it on our own... / Is this the world we devastated? / Right to the bone... / If there's a God in the sky / looking down / what can He think of / what we've done / to the World that He created?" Not in Italian...since you posted a quoting in my language, I thought I could post one in yours...

Sorry for 2nd post.

Shadowrider - [shdwrdr@tiscali.it]
Monday, April 8, 2002 06:16:09 PM
IP: 62.10.19.22

Spacebabie -- ooohhh... lemon, tentacle, hentai comics! Of course, this has the strange effect of making me hungry for Tako (octopus) sushi. mmm... tako!!!

Thanks spacebabie *^_^*

*sips milk and enjoys catnip*

Gives spacebabie favorite squeaky mouse toy, and a hot, fresh bumble berry blossom pastry.

It's so grey and gloomy today, I had to bake.

Mooncat wanders off to write and eat pastries.
Mooncat
Monday, April 8, 2002 05:12:38 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

I think i'l just concentrate on the non-Israel/Palestine topics.

Rocky Horror - I have wondered what it would be like if our theater dept. did Rocky Horror. They've even considered doing it three years aago. But they decided on "Cabaret" instead. That turned out to be fun though. I was in the "Kit-Kat Club" Band where all the male members had to be in drag (complete w/wig makeup, heels). (why would I go through with such a thing?) Well...sitting among (true) females wearing nothing but black lacy panties, nylons,... garders,.....and halter tops....*deep breath* for 5 31/2hr shows......*sigh*. that, and we got views of the dancers that the audience didn't get to see. **evil pervertet snicker**

Yep, I was a music major, a LIBERAL ARTS MAJOR!! It took me 61/2 years to graduate (class of 2000).

Computer stuff, Microsodt bashing etc.

DPH: Heh Heh, "Microshaft". I once altered my Windows startup screen so that "Microsoft" was "Microspank" I like "shaft" better though.

Archwolf/Josh: apple IIe's, from the days when you could have multipule programs on one 5-1/4 disk. I remember the loud clicking and grinding noises the drives made if you didn't have a disk. [[<<I'd finally had enough with Windows crap >>didn't use ibm till dad bought that damn Tandy in 89.]] We had an AMIGA 1000(still have it too but don't use it except to play some of the old games)It had the coolest graphics for its time. It had an OS similar to the MAC but better - uses a mouse that has more than 1 button:) They called it "Workbench". (this was pre-Windows 3.1 when nobody knew who Bill Gates was) Of course some time in 1992 Commodore (who bought AMIGA in 1987) decided they didn't want to compete any more and the stores got rid of their AMIGA sections. So then in october 92 my dad bought a 33MHZ Packard Bell (which processed slower than the Amiga 10MHZ) wit Windows 3.1, no sound card, no multi media support. "What the hell is this dos prompt s&!t." <When i want to do real work, I use Linux. And for all that OSX is BSD, I'm still not comfortable with Mac interface>> Amiga (which is no longer owned by Commodore) still makes an operating system that can run on Mac and Windows with an "Amiga emulator" program (like Virtual windows for Mac)

Josh:<<Of course, with Grade D meat served by the university, its sure to suck.>> Except for the days when the Pres. of the university eats there and then it's by invitation only right?

Here, life is beautiful, dzi girls are beautiful, even dzi orchestra is beautiful: EmCee, "Cabaret"
Leo
Yorktown, Va
Monday, April 8, 2002 04:01:35 PM
IP: 172.137.168.59

uh.. guys?

shadowrider is the dude..

*steps out in front of him to block flames*

"canta per me ne addio
quel dolce suono
de' passati giorni
mi sempre rammenta

la vita dell'amore
dilette del cor mio
o felice, tu anima mia
canta adagio.."
lain "warera mamoru yuiitsu no ai" iwakura
Monday, April 8, 2002 03:18:13 PM
IP: 64.228.193.155

got a little free time to tango. Let's do this thang.

Josh><<Wait, you and gunjack are only relying on statistics for ONE year?! Forget heads in the sand, you guys have your heads in your butts.>> As we've both said repeatedly and verified with evidence, we're basing those claims on ALL TERROR ATTACKS FROM 1987 TO THE PRESENT.
Lain checked the ata for one of the years listed, and came to the 3~ killed per attack stat. She also provided a link to an israeli page where she got her info for 2001, on which (if you'd bothered to look) were stats for 1990 through 2001. We are not using "aha!" statistics; we only calculated one year, cause that's what we've had time to do so far, and because a cursory examination of the other years demonstrated much the same trend.

Next time, at least examine the evidence presented before accusing people of having their heads up their butts. Thanks lots.
^_^

Greg><<Arafat was offered 90% of everything he asked for (more than anyone else has offered him)... [and] ...Arafat just walked out and soon after, all this shit started up again.>> This is why I really, REALLY hate Arafat. The man is a fanatic.

<<It may say in your Bible that God threw the Jews out.>> Uh... the first half of "our" bible IS the Jewish bible. The books are ordered differently, and I believe the Jewish version has some few books that the Christian OT leaves out. Everything MD and I have quoted, however, is from material common to both.
<<But if you open a history book, it says the Romans expelled them from Israel, and quite brutally I might add.>> And if you'd open a copy of the Jewish scriptures, I think you'd find that God promised (on multiple occasions) to drive them out before foriegn nations should they disobey him. They did, and he did.
I'd also point out that the Jews drove out the PREVIOUS inhabitants even MORE brutally.

<<So, by this logic, it's okay to take someone else's land, but not okay for those people to try and take it back? I'm glad no one held this attitude during World War II.>>...

This is the part that really boggles me. The Israelis TOOK THE LAND BELONGING TO THE PALESTINIANS. By "took the land", I mean that the israelis showed up at the palestinians houses with machine guns, threw them out on the street, and moved Israelis in.

*The Israelis had been gone for 2,000 years, the Palestinians have been gone for 50.

*The Israeli religion indicates that their holy land was stripped away from them by their God. The Palestinian religious claims contain no such difficulties.

*The Israelis gained the land from the British THROUGH TERRORISM in the first place.

But despite these clear facts (and I can back up all three with as many examples as you'd like), you think that the Israeli right to the land supersedes the Palestinian claim?

Aaron - Oh my. Ten points? We'll have to leave that till later. I'm looking forward to it, I assure you.
Gunjack "Shod In Marble, Gloved In Lead" Valentine
Monday, April 8, 2002 02:49:15 PM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Off thought -- since neither the side can play nice, why not have a third party just conquor the heck out of the entire area and drive out isreali and palestines alike. Rape the land of it's wealth and value, then blast it to glass and move on. Then the isreali and palestines can fight over a vast stretch of glass if they want to, but there won't be any natural resources there to support them.

Sort of the draconian mom approach. If the kids can't share a toy, and end up fighting over it endlessly... smash the toy.

Just a thought.
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, April 8, 2002 02:45:09 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

<Reads posts>
Hmmm...probably, there is something I haven't understood of the CR rules. If I don't read wrong, there is something in the rules about not posting flames...where "flames" are supposed to be insults to other people. Now, just less than two days ago, a person in this CR felt it was his right to post pages and pages of racist deliriums, in which (among the other things) he treated some hundred millions of human beings as animals and worse, only because they happened to be part of a religion and/or a racial group. I was logically expecting this person to be AT LEAST warned for what he wrote. Instead, not only he wasn't, but he got full support by the very people who are supposed to make the rules respected. Definitely, there IS something I fail to understand completely...and, what I understand of it I really don't like. In fact, seeing this, a person who happens to randomly visit this CR, could believe that this person's ideas are the "official" line of thinking of the CR...
I usually avoid commenting such kind of things...I have always considered myself a tolerant person...but, I must admit that with racists, my tolerance is very little. And, I must add that apparently, the rules into here are not applied in the same way for everyone...some people will for sure get what I am referring to...

Lain:> <<it must be nice to see everything so cleanly cut >>
Indeed, it must be so, since so many people see things like that. You know, sometimes I really envy that kind of people, sometimes I'd like to be one of them. No more doubts, just the one and only Truth. No more infinite shades of gray, just black on one side and white on the other...and, black and white, or good and evil as you like, separated by a good, straight and remarked line. A line that you can trace by yourself. The criterium you trace that with? Little matters...religion, race, income...just trace a line, with the good on one (your) side and evil on the other. Ordered, divided, simple. And, when there's a problem, any problem, no need to look for the cause: the cause is there, beyond the line, and the solution is simple. And, when you have eliminated everyone on the other side of the line (the Final Solution...), but the problems are still there? Easy, just move your line a little farther,(or above). Or, draw another line.
Yes, if only I could induce myself in thinking that way, my life would be easier...You know what I find funny of this kind of people? When they tell us (cause what they said to you has been said to me as well, not by the same persons, and so I feel included in the "fairy-worlders" category as well) to "pull your heads out of the sand" or something like that. So, I, who believe that in the world there are five and more milliards of INDIVIDUALS, everyone different from each other, I, who think that in this world good and evil are so equally distributed that all humanity appears to me as a table of grey shades, am supposed to be the fairy-worlder? And they, who pretend to eliminate the problems of the world by finding and destroying the incarnations of evil, are supposed to be the realists? As I said, I find it funny. And, there is another thing I find funny...their idea, their intimate convinction that everyone else's ideas are totally conformed to theirs, or totally opposed. The thought that some people might try to find a third way does not even skim the surface of their granitical convinctions. No: OR you are with them, and consequently you think EXACTLY like them, OR you are against them. For example, the idea that a person (for example, me...) could be neither pro-Palestinian nor pro-Israelian, but, instead, on the side of the millions of persons, on BOTH sides, who are simply scared to death by what is happening, and whose only desire is to live their life in peace, and not with the fear of the next suicidal attack, or of the tank that will destroy their home...well, the mere *mention* that some people could think this way, is for them source of infinite wonder.
Many of them, naturally, will deny with all of their strenght of being racists. Actually, the mere innuendo that their ideas could be even slightly racist, is enough to unleash in them the most fundamentalist holy rage. To quote Daniel Pennac (have you ever read anything of his works? If not, I suggest you to look for it...trust me, it is worth...), "...he was not right-wing *because* he was racist. He was right-wing, *so* he had had the chance to ponder objectively on the problems of the world and to come to the conclusion that all those savages had to be exterminated, first for the purity of the race, second for the economy, third for safety (cause, when you have for many reasons the *correct* opinion, you must not let it be touched by accuses of racism)..." (D. Pennac, "La Fèe Carabine", Gallimard, 1987)
I usually don't like treating political issues in this CR...but, this time, I felt really the need to intervene. When people can post pages and pages of racist propaganda, and get applauses by the people who are supposed to control for such things not to happen, then I cannot keep myself out. I am just sorry that I am posting this so late...RL issues have prevented me from reading the CR during the weekend. And, I am sorry that what I wrote above probably won't do that much sense... But, Lain, I'd like to conclude with a suggestion (unrequested, I know...and I apologize for it...naturally, you are completely free of following it or not)... I usually avoid to discuss with racists, for various reasons: because they disgust me, is one. Because it is useless, since I refuse to use dogma, and logic or reason have very scarce influence on them, is another. But, mainly, cause I noticed how often racists are very repressed people. They love discussing with people who don't share their ideas, they look actively for the slightest chance of screaming their hate in anyone's face. It feeds their ego. So, I suspect the best strategy is to ignore them. As long as somebody will respond them, they will continue spreading their hate.
P.S. Another thing: have you ever noticed how often the fiercest supporters of "total war, total destruction" are people who have never worn a uniform even for one single day of their life (the vice versa is not always true, though), and who have no intention to wear it in future? Like a warrant officer of my old regiment once said, "It is not true that soldiers love war, or that they want it. Soldiers don't want war, for the simple reason that, if war comes, it's them who will fight it."
Oh, one last thing: I really appreciated your Italian quoting in one of your posts...just, it is not "...il inno di morte...", but "...l'inno di morte...".
And, here is another quoting for you:
"Mio martello non colpisce pialla mia non taglia
per foggiare gambe nuove a chi le offrì in battaglia
ma tre croci due per chi disertò per rubare
la più grande per chi guerra insegnò a disertare"
Whose is it? It's been written by a singer, Fabrizio De Andrè. Ask Valentine, I think he has a couple of his songs...;)

DPH:> <<...No offense, but I hope you were venting some steam...>> "Venting some steam"...you Americans have a lot of interesting expressions, indeed. No, it was not what I was doing.

Jan:> No need to thank me. I am your friend, you know it. I just wrote what I felt. I wrote what I *meant*. Unluckily, I wasn't able to send you the new MP3...I am working on a solution, but I still haven't found a good way. I'd really like to know, though, why my usual email servers cannot communicate with yours...
<> I know the feeling...it is something I'd like to do as well sometimes. But, somehow, I feel it is not right to do so...problems are never solved by ignoring them, unluckily...

Ravyn:> :) Well, at least I am not the *only* one who reminds that time...I was beginning to doubt of that. Optimism, you say? I don't know...everywhere I look, I see only confirms to what I already think...that man cannot learn from his mistakes, and that when political interests collide with morals, it is morals that step back. Optimism? Maybe, some day I'll find it again...hope, they say, dies for last...

Was there anything else? Probably yes...but I have no time now. See everyone.

"Io sono come Dio / E gli uomini li rifarei / come ora / occhi per non vedere / bocche per non parlare / meglio così..."

"Se la terra è tonda / e se il mare è blu / da che mondo è mondo / il forte vince e non sei tu..."

"Nessuno salvò nessuno con la spada."

Shadowrider - [shdwrdr@tiscali.it]
Monday, April 8, 2002 02:42:12 PM
IP: 62.10.20.38

AARON> Great points all around ::applauds:: <<There's a city in Israel called Demona. 'Nuff said. ;)>> There IS??? SWEET!

BTW, post more often ;)
Greg Bishansky
Monday, April 8, 2002 02:32:35 PM
IP: 216.179.1.222

Moochie> <<Juxtaposed with your next sentence, this forms a veritable *irony sandwich*.>> I fail to see any irony whatsoever.

Minor, minor little tiny difference between the Palestinians and the Jews... The Jews didn't start that fight. Nor did they start this one.

I will make a more complete reply later, after I've read everything, but for the moment...

First, the state of Israel is a make-up for the fact that the Western world failed to discover or care what Hitler was up to in the 30s. Where was international opinion, and the wonderful concern I see for the "poor Palestinians" then?

Second, the Palestinians have had numerous chances to play ball. They *had* their own country. When Israel opened for business in 1948, there was a soverign Palestinian state right next door. But that wasn't good enough for the Arabs, so they attacked Israel the day after the UN pulled out. The result? Israel doubles in size.

Third, Palestinian ethnicity and nationality are a joke in the first place. The "nation" of Palestine was a set of lines drawn in the sand by the British back in the 20s. I refuse to believe that an identity imposed on a people from another continent by a foreign power could have that much influence and emotional attachment, especially in so relatively short a time. There is no such thing as ethnic Palestinians. Ethnically, they're Arabs. Just like the Syrians, Jordanese, Lebanese, etc.

Fourth, SJ was right when he said it isn't about the land. It's about the fact that *Jews* have the land.

Fifth, Islam, despite my Libyan Pol-Sci 1053 teacher's claims to the contrary, is a violent religion, spread by fire and the sword. Jewish martyrs get nailed to things by corrupt authorities. Islamic martyrs die killing the enemies of Allah. See a difference? The word "assassin" is derived from an Islamic sect famous for it's use of mind-altering drugs and brain-washing techniques to convince it's followers that if they were to kill for Allah, they would receive forty virgins and lakes of wine and honey in paradise. They were then sent forth to kill for their masters. And the same thing continues today. The Manchurian Candidate is neither a Western invention nor a recent one.

Sixth, when it comes to Jerusalem, and the control thereof, one of the major sticking points in this conflict, the Arabs don't have a leg to stand on. Jerusalem isn't sacred to Islam and it never has been. The holy cities of Islam are Mecca and Medina, Mohammed's home town and the only place that would take him in, respectively. The Koran never mention's Jerusalem by name, and if I recall, there's no concrete evidence that the Prophet ever set foot there.

Eigth, the differenc between the IDF and the Gestapo is that the Gestapo preyed on an ethnic minority who had never done anything to the country's ethnic majority, whereas the IDF go after people who are criminals, who *happen* to be ethnic minorities. You say the IDF is careless about non-combatants. I, personally, question just how non-combatant those Palestinian "civilians" are. The PLO, Hammas, etc., could not operate without active support, or at least tacit consent from the majority of the population. If the Palestinians truly want peace, then they need to quit sending money to Bin Laden-types, quit letting Yassar Arafat be their mouthpiece, and sit down and negotiate with the Isralies in good faith, after they unstrap that dynamite from their chests. Tired of getting shelled for harboring terrorists? Stop harboring them. Simple equation.

Ninth: You say Sharon is a fascist dictator, trying to brutally repress an ethnic minority within his borders, somewhere on the level of Saddam Huessin's treatment of the Kurds in northern Iraq. I say, the first responsibility of a leader is keeping his people alive and safe. If Arafat were genuinly concerned for the people he represents, he'd tell them to quit blowing themselves up, and start working on getting them fed, housed, and clothed. Some genuine good faith efforts toward that might convince the international community to make Israel ease up, and would more then likely create an outpouring of international charity for the Palestinian refugees, since maybe this time the money would be spent on food and blankets instead of C-4 and Semtex.

Tenth, and here we come back to my first point. Pointing fingers and saying "Well, they started it." may seem childish, but, in this case, it's true. The Isralies didn't create this situation. You say repressive tactics by the Isralies create Palestinian terrorists. Wrong. Palestinian terrorists create repressive tactics by the Isralies, by making them afraid every Palestinian is, in fact, a terrorist. Had the Palestinians not attacked Israel that fateful day back in '48, the Isralies wouldn't have jurisdiction over them in the first place. In short, the Palestinians fucked with the wrong people, and now they can reap the whirlwind.

Eleventh: There's a city in Israel called Demona. 'Nuff said. ;)

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Monday, April 8, 2002 02:13:04 PM
IP: 209.33.140.101

Lain: Wait, you and gunjack are only relying on statistics for ONE year?! Forget heads in the sand, you guys have your heads in your butts. Any engineer worth the paper his degree is written on will tell you that one year doesn't statistically determine crap.
Josh
Monday, April 8, 2002 02:02:09 PM
IP: 64.161.24.226

Let me clarify my thoughts on the war in Israel. I do agree that what's going on over there is terrible. Both sides have suffered greatly. I also have very personal reasons for being emotionally involved in what happens.

Both sides are commiting atrocities over there. How ever, I will say this. During the Camp David talks with Ehud Barak and President Clinton. Arafat was offered 90% of everything he asked for (more than anyone else has offered him), including half of Jerusalem to establish a capital, that half being populated by Arabs anyway. The rest of what Arafat wanted would come over time, since it couldn't be given to him write away. Arafat just walked out and soon after, all this shit started up again.

Personally I want to see peace in that region. I support Israel's right to exist, and their right to that land (and leave the theology out of this, I'm more concerned with people who do exist, not being that may or may not exist). I also think the Palestinians have the right to establish their own state in the West Bank. But it won't happen under Arafat. Nor will it happen under Sharon, he's not my war hero either (they haven't had a truly great leader since Yitzak Rabin). But, I believe the Israelis have the right to defend themselves. They gave Arafat many oppurtunities to crack down on terrorists, Arafat refused to do so. In fact, he's now been officially linked to the suicide bombings. Yasser Arafat was a terrorist, is a terrorist, and will always be a terrorist. He's no different than Osama bin Laden, he just has much better propaganda. He does not have the interests and well being of his people at heart, that's obvious. He's setting himself up to be a martyr, he wants to be remembered as the one who drove the "Jewish Infidels" into the sea either in life or through his death.

Now, on to replies.

LYNATI> You posted!!! Keep doing it!

METALDEMON> It may say in your Bible that God threw the Jews out. But if you open a history book, it says the Romans expelled them from Israel, and quite brutally I might add. As for why I support Israel, Though I'm an Atheist, I still consider myself to be Jewish, only without the faith. Half my family is Jewish, and the majority of my friends are Jewish. <<they do deserve a nation as long as it doesn't warant invading territory that was taken away from them>> So, by this logic, it's okay to take someone else's land, but not okay for those people to try and take it back? I'm glad no one held this attitude during World War II. <> Don't even go there.

SPACEBABIE> Where's my gift? ;)
Greg Bishansky
Monday, April 8, 2002 01:31:41 PM
IP: 216.179.1.222

one more thing..

josh>> <<Suppose the average terror attack kills three isrealis>>: When it fact its really closer to 20 or so.>> i just did a calculation, from figures given on an israeli-published website called "terrorvictims.com". taking all the available suicide bombing statistics for the whole of 2001, i calculated that the average suicide bomber killed 2.96 people per attack, not all of whom were israelis. however, from the same statistics, i also calculated that the average terrorist bomber injured 32.55 people, again not all of whom are israelis. so to say the figure is "really closer to 20 or so" appears to be a gross miscalculation. unless im doing my math reaaaally wrong.. feel free to check out the statistics yourself, though.
click the link.

lain
Monday, April 8, 2002 12:06:13 PM
IP: 64.228.193.155

sorry for the second post.
*******Theological post*********
archwolf> Aren't those condtitions accepttance of the Messiah. I am seriously not too sure on this, but I think that is a condition; that the Messiah would deliver the Holy Land back to them; but, as can see, Jews think Jesus is a crack-pot.
metaldemon
Monday, April 8, 2002 11:52:46 AM
IP: 129.120.255.198

space baby> they do deserve a nation as long as it doesn't warant invading territory that was taken away from them. That's just like Native Americans going on an uprising against the US governemnt to take back the land that was stolen from them (which has been happening VERY unsuccesssfully).

Archwolf> Well see, here's the current thingz: Sharon (e?) is now claiming that he's wiping out terrorism (at least that's what the NY times quoted him saying). He's using the current dilemma to his advantage; in other words, he's stopping "the killers."
So, since Bush is the one who cme up with stamping terrorrism by use of any mehtod, Bush is the one who has to reason with him, though I think that would be quite funny to see since Bush is now faced with the fruit of his works.
In short, I don't think I answered your question in the slightest ;).
metaldemon
Monday, April 8, 2002 11:48:36 AM
IP: 129.120.255.198

*brief post*

lain><<with conditions. which (depending on whos side yer on) arguably have and have not been met. >> Agreed, the all hav enot, but there is nothing that says the current troubles are not part of that fulfilment. That is all i was getting at.

out

Archwolf - [thearchwolf@hotmail.com]
Monday, April 8, 2002 11:32:56 AM
IP: 137.148.202.39

*strolls in*

yesterday was interesting. i worked (and it was soooooo boring and slow, we didnt even break 200$ at the end of the day, yeesh..) and then i got called out to this girls house to do some knitting with her. shes a graduate student and, for her final project, she is making knitting projects. unfortunately, these projects are knitted portraits. yes, you heard me, *knitted* portraits. ive never seen any knitting thing so scary in my life! i dont know if anyone else in here knits but this thing is 88 stitches wide and involves (i think) 12 colours.. which you have to carry and/or switch all the time. and im going back today to do more. ive never switched colours before so.. its cool :)

moonkitty>> << I wonder why SJ's rants about palastine and isreal on a gargoyle's comment room are more relevent then oh... my tiny comments on garg fan art, garg fan story, or direct comments to other garg fans here in the CR.>> uh.. good question. i guess this isnt so much a "gargoyles" CR as a "TGS gargoyles" CR.. therefore when theres no TGS, just about anything goes as subject of conversation. people follow other shows (more noticably buffy and angel) but even they are doing that stupidly annoying thing where they dont show new episodes in the middle of the season. pisses me off, that do. <<But yeah, I think it would be more considerate if you are going to post pages and pages of text, to do it *after* the top ten is finished. But, whatever. >> to he fair, he might not have realized it was the top ten. i see some posts sometimes where they think its still the old room, cos they havent looked back while they were posting. <<I'm sure comments here on the mess that's been going on for forever will somehow affect whether the palastines or isrealites will become victorious or affect the fighting between the two in some really significant, or heck, even insignificant manner.>> no, youre right, it probably wont. though raising awareness is ALWAYS a good thing.. most of us who watch the news feel helpless one way or the other and i guess this is one way we can feel like were *doing* something. helping in some way. then again.. some of us (no names mentioned *ahem*) just like to pick fights over every/anything we think will be a bone of contention ;P~

metaldemon>> <<Let's not forget G-d exiled the Jews from the Holy Land for their sins of giving money to Pagan religions and forgetting to fully observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years.>> and temple prostitutes.. lets not forget the temple prostitutes.. ;)

dph>> <<DPH walks in the CR, wearing clothing designed to protect fire fighters from heat. He hopes it will protect him from the heated discussion.>> have i mentioned lately that i think youre a VERY smart person??

archwolf>> <<you also have to recognize that God said that it would be returned, too.>> with conditions. which (depending on whos side yer on) arguably have and have not been met.

josh>> <<*that* was long>> yeah, it kinda was. sorry again, but i still hope you read it. noone has posted any replies so i guess ill have to assume noones attention span is that long :P <<And then, in the latter portions of the Book>>: That wouldn't be in the New Testament, would it? The section...written by Christians?>> "israel, i first began to hate you because you did evil at gilgal (aka worshipping there when they werent sposed to cos it was sinful). now i will chase you out of my house. no longer will i love you; you leaders have betrayed me. israel, you are a vine with dried-up roots and fruitless branches. even if you had more children and loved them dearly, i would slaughter them all." now, ill admit that hosea isnt part of the torah (which includes genesis, exodus, leviticus, numbers and deuteronomy) it goes under the nevi'im, the collection of scriptures about the jewish prophets, but the torah, the nevi'im and the kethuvim (aka all the OTHER books in the OT) are all part of the tanak (aka all the books of the hebrew scriptures) and therefore NOT, as you propose, written by christians.they were written by hebrew guys, for hebrew guys, and is firmly in the old testament. sorry, dude. now to be fair, all the prophet dudes who deliver messages like, "should i, the lord, rescue you from death and the grave? no! i call death and the grave to strike you like a plague. i refuse to show mercy," also bring news that, "israel, give up your idols! i will answer your prayers and take care of you... i am the lord, and i lead you along the right path. if you obey me, we will walk together," but these are always accompanied by the obligatory, "but if you are wicked, you will stumble." (and again, hosea, from the nevi'im section of the old testament.)
..
..
why do i KNOW this!? AAAAARGH!!!! GUNJACK HAS INFILTRATED MY BRAAAAAAIN!!!!! help... me....

spacebabie>> <<Already the ADV fic class is filled up. How the hell am I suposed to graduate??? I didn't even have a chance. to register. The computer won't let me register till 9:00 tomorrow.>> AAAAAK!!! go talk to the professor of the course, sometimes they let extra people in the class if there are outstanding circumstances.. <<Point 1. Jerusalem was originally the home of the Jews thousands of years before this recent mess.>> well, actually, if were going to pull this one, i suppose the land *originally* belonged to the.. caananites who were descendants of ham who saw his dad noah nake.. what?! RAT TOYS!? WOOHOO!!!!!!
lain
Monday, April 8, 2002 11:08:59 AM
IP: 64.228.193.155

“Enters Cr with a hardhat::
Okay bring her in
:::A chocolate bar the size of the monolith from 2001 is set before Josh. A peanut butter cup the size of an above ground pool is set before SJ.
Mooncat>>>::Gives her saucers of milk, catnip joints and a few lemon scented comic books that have hentai tentacles dangling from the bottom.
Lain>>>:::Gives her rat toys for Ishy
Gunjack>>>Places a rack of guns with materials to polish them in front of him.
Mara>>>Lights holy candles and bows before her before giving an offering of more hentai comics.

I don’t know if these gifts might make people calm down and quelch the flames, but hopefully it might cool the posts down a bit.

Well I registerd with my backup plan. I also plan on makings some phone calls.

I’m still irked at UCF but I calmed down a bit watching some Slayers Try. The episode with Lina in wacky land does wonders.

Replies
metal demon<<<They are a people without a nation for a reason.>>>So you are saying that Israelites don’t deserve a nation?

Lyanti>>>Chocolate dove bar!!!!!!!!! *CHOMP* Thanks.

Lila>>>Thanks ^_^

Anonymous>>>You need to learn two things
1.How to type.
2.How to post your name.

Gunjack and Metaldemon>>>-_-! Uh guys your are uh close to uh breaking one of the unwritten cr commandments…Thou shalt not piss off the administrators. *Multiple sweat drops*

Gside<<<What's the specific heat of silicone?>>>No Silicone is bad, use saline instead.

Josh<<<Careful, you're flaming the hippies.>>>Hey they tend to go up faster since they have all that hemp and their heads are like hollow wood.<<<Lucky devil. I have another two weeks to wait>>>Just hope that some of your classes are not too limited.<<>>At least my orthodontist made flavored molds like bannana, bubblegum, and root beer. They were pretty decent.<<<No its not that. The University just doesn't want to pay for it>>>Sorry I was asuming the hippies since you go to Berkley and all.<<<There's a lot of room between "thin" and "not chunky".>>> Smack dab in the middle.<<<Stink bombs are okay>>>Maybe we should develop sneeze bombs, bombs with itching powder and bombs with laughing gas and give it to them.<<<No, but shouldn't other people?>>>Not me. In fact I want a reduction.

“Never piss off people with a photographic memory. They hold onto grudges longer.”~Me
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Monday, April 8, 2002 10:30:52 AM
IP: 67.24.92.110

Goooooooooooood morning everyone.

**Warning, Work RANT**
You know, i really hate stupid people? I went out on a call friday to fix a problem our music dept was having with Microsoft Office. I got there and found that someone had been there since the last tech and re arranged a few things, so that the office suite was trying to run off of our softwear installs server. Not totally unexpected. Problems such as that one were the reason we had to shut our server up, and now require a password to access. Well, shutting the server off to the public is what caused this particular error. So I fixed it by reinstalling Office 2k (on a 150Mhz cpu with 40 mb/ram so it took me better part of an hour). Tested my work, it was all good, i left. Well, 20 minutes later, the lady there calls the help desk, yelling and screaming that I had screwed up her computer. I knew damn well that i handn't, so I took another tech with me and headed back there. I went to her office, tried to be polite, but got very short with her when she called me a liar twice. I went back to the computer that i had 'messed up' and was able to log in as her with her password right away. The stupid wench had been trying to log in as administrator. She's not administrator...I AM. Now, i could chalk this upto her just not bothering to see if it was even her name she was using to log into the system, but i had changed the default name _back_ to hers. So, she must have seen her name, decided it wasn't correct, then tried administrator for the hell of it, then called us to complain aboutme screwing things up while the whole time,the problem was her lack of intelligence. I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!
**end rant**

onto replies.

Josh>><<Sweet! We should play sometime>> right now, i'm still working through the core campaings, figure everyone out. Maybe then.<> I'm going to be throwing in a nother 1.25 Gb DDR2100 soon. That will max out my board, but not my processor (current processors can address something on the order of 4 Gb ram, 64TB virtual). But I hear you on drive space. my 10 gig is pathetic. Unfortunatly, i keep forgettinga bout it when upgrading. This drive has survived 3 different boxes. <<Crucial's prices aren't very good. I never buy from the cheapest dealer, but Crucial is a bit high of the industry average for me>> Crucails prices are not too high, either, especiall concidering you pay no shipping, and it comes with lifetime warranty. Having had a stick of ram melt down before, i really value that. <<That's a lousy argument>> And it wasn't meant to be taken too seriously either. <<I'd finally had enough with Windows crap >> Like I've said before, I use it only for launchign games, and occaisonal programming. When i want to do real work, I use Linux. And for all that OSX is BSD, I'm still not comfortable with Mac interface. And it's not cause i grew up with IBM either. I used the whole line of apple/IIe/IIGs in grade school and didn't use ibm till dad bought that damn Tandy in 89. I remember thinkin that 8Mhz was a fast processor.........
For my next box: dual Xp's, DDR, Raid-0 array, the whole works. *looks at computer, squits* Ok, monitor just went to the top of the list of things to get.
<<Sadly, most of us have no lives>> Speak for your self. I have a fine life of programming, playing HALO, swearing at Microsoft, studying for my A+ cert, writing philo papers, eating dorm food....waitaminute...you're right...I have no life...damn that sux.

Gside><<Homework finished before the due date? That scares me.>> You should ahve seen the look on my Social/Legal/Political philo prof when i hadned in the Locke paper..."_You_ are the only one to get this in on time??" Then she called me a bigot cause i don't like england....I'm not a bigot. I'm irish (well, of irish desent, anyway). <<Thank you. >> Welcome.

Ravyn><< Happy Math Awareness Week, >> Wow...you really _are_ a nerd. I remember my nerd days. now I'm just a geek. I got demoted.

Gunjack><<To claim Israel was given to the Jews by God, you also have to admit that it was taken AWAY by God.>>Then you also have to recognize that God said that it would be returned, too. And that is all I'm gonna say about the Israel/Palestine thing. I've too many friends on both sides to egg either on.

Metaldemon><> I admire the attempt as well, but it's all for not. I mean, if we can't get them to stop killing based on the fact that all are children of God, then how is appealing to a lesser authority going to settle them down?

Well, i have to go back to writing and answering inane phone calls from people with less intelligence than one of Sevarius' first generation clones.

laters

Archwolf - [thearchwolf@hotmail.com]
Monday, April 8, 2002 09:43:39 AM
IP: 137.148.201.127

***** TGS CR INFORMATION UPDATES *****

Sorry for all the delays!

Greg Bishansky's email address has been added to the Admins and Timeline pages.
>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/admins.html
>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/timeline.html

The 2002 CR archive has been updated to include weeks from March 16th to April 6th for a total of 3 newly added weeks.
>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/2002/

New TGS CR Member Profile:
Mecord - http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/members/profiles/mecord.html

Revised TGS CR Member Profile:
Lady Mystic - http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/members/profiles/lady_mystic.html

I have resent Siryn's profile draft and am currently awaiting her reply.

Calendars and statistics pages were updated accordingly.
>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/members/

***** END TGS CR INFORMATION UPDATES *****

In more personal news: I got a job at FS's workplace! I'm in my last week of training and will soon be an Email Rep handling sales and customer service via email (with telephone sales on the side). I'm not sure how long I'll stay there or how much I'll like the job. More later. Take care! :)
Lady Mystic
Head Admin of TGS CR Information
Monday, April 8, 2002 05:03:59 AM
IP: 216.254.103.139

Spent nearly all of today working on two assignments. Our structural engineering prof gave us an assignment that's gonna take nearly 7 hours total. That really pisses me off.

replies

Lila: <>: Sadly, most of us have no lives. <<where I was ceremoniously "devirginized">>: Congrats, most girls don't get a ceremonious devirginization ;-) <<rode a mechanical bull at a party>>: Kinky. I bet you were the most popular girl at the party after that.

Green Baron: SPELL CHECK. <<we have a chance to prevent 6 million Jews from being slaughtered>>: 18.

Spacebabie: <>: Ah, the glory of the UPS. <<Tomorrow I can register for the fall>>: Lucky devil. I have another two weeks to wait. <>: That's because of that !@#$ing mold they use. I always used to gag when I had molds taken for braces. <<It tasted bad…but not as bad as Nyquil>>: Yeah, Nyquil is foul, but nothing puts me to sleep faster. <<Let me guess the knee jerk, vegetarian, PETA card carrying uberliberals won’t allow you to have decent meat?>>: No its not that. The University just doesn't want to pay for it. <<Well I am thin..not Laura Flynn-Boyle, anorexic thin, but I’m not chunky>>: There's a lot of room between "thin" and "not chunky". <<For the gooey stuff or the bsb?>>: Both. <<How about Napalm or stink bombs?>>: Stink bombs are okay. <<You keep implants in your breasts??>>: No, but shouldn't other people? <<Only if you have an evil printer…which I don’t anymore>>: Worse, I have an evil prof. <<Like when the straight A student finally kicks the ass of the school bully>>: Which only happens in the movies. <<How the hell am I suposed to graduate?>>: Late. <>: Welcome to college. It sucks.

Warpmind: <<could you PLEASE take a good, long look at how you phrased it?>>: What are the odds that he didn't?

Greg: <<It's refreshing to see that a few of us live in the real world>>: Careful, you're flaming the hippies. <<Pull your heads out of the sand>>: "This is the pulse. This is your finger, far away from the pulse, jammed straight up your ass. Would you like a chocolate covered pretzel?" <>: That hardly qualifies as a "tear".

Lain: *that* was long.

Mooncat: <<to do it *after* the top ten is finished>>: I fail to see what's wrong with posting a real post during the top ten. There is no ban on subject matter during that time (or any other time).

Gunjack: <<The Japanese went peacefully, were held (to my knowledge) peacefully, and returned peacefully at the conclusion of the war>>: Have you read Farewell to Manzanar? <<terror is a "Force Multiplier", meaning that terrorists can cause damage out of proportion to their numbers>>: Well guess what? Suicide bombs cause a lot of terror. <<Suppose the average terror attack kills three isrealis>>: When it fact its really closer to 20 or so. <<They were kids throughing rocks killed by rubber bullets>>: I'm sorry, but if someone throws rocks at me, I'm gonna hurt them before they hurt me. I don't care if they're a child, and neither should a soldier. They have an important duty to defend their country that they can't perform if some kid is throwing rocks at their head. <<For making a U-Turn>>: So? LAPD does the same thing. <<You fail to see how condemning an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few is dangerous?>>: Yup. Its paranoid, sure. Its silly and ignorant...but how is it dangerous? Are they going to retaliate for saying they're all terrorists if we nuke them and they roast? <<their legal status as second-class citizens>>: They're not second-class citizens everywhere. <<Israel CREATED that problem by SEIZING THEIR HOMES AND LAND>>: Israel is not the only place for them to be. <<If I'm not mistaken, that number INCLUDES the suicide bombings>>: I'm quite certain that's not true. <<Biology is my personal ho>>: I wish I had a personal ho... <>: Don't we all? <<the dashing chap in the lab coat>>: How do we know he's dashing? <<You get used to it... Or else they chase you screaming into a corner, and break out the chainsaws>>: Sometimes not in that order. <<And then, in the latter portions of the Book>>: That wouldn't be in the New Testament, would it? The section...written by Christians? <<Maybe art majors ARE the only ones who disagree with Israel. After spending 12 hours thrashing them, I tried some art and succeeded beyond my wildest expectations>>: Its help from Satan for supporting his side. <<The mercs killed a touch short of a thousand refugees, and Sharon was held to be the one responsible for the incident by an Israeli court. That's your war hero>>: Not my war hero, but I'm sure he's *someone's* war hero. And war heros get elected.

Anonymous: I don't know who you are, but its high time we had your personal information posted in here. And I am NOT sweet.

DPH: <<Very funny>>: I thought so. <<but there are little quirks in Visual Basic>>: Shocker. <<half the time I am programming I have to argue with my computer to keep the program to work.>>: This is true for any programming, and twice as true with the buggy Windows API's that M$ gives out. <<Too bad, Microshaft can't use its influence to help set timetables for when new products are released>>: Ugh god no. That would crush the PC industry. <<That would do wonders for increasing the sales of their product because people wouldn't be scared of buying right before the prices fall through the roof>>: No, because that would make buying/selling cycles, which is not a good thing for employees, or companies, or anyone else. <<Is it me or is the number of anonymous posters been going up lately?>>: The latter. <<the room was wiped last night and it's already 110K>>: I blame Lain and SJ.

Fire Storm: <<packing, mortgage crap>>: Good luck with your new home!

Gside: <<Wilek and Fire Storm are missing for the moment>>: I miss them. <<Didn't you say something about an art history exam?>>: That alone doesn't make him an art major. Now, if has 3 of them...its all over. <<you're a naughty boy for skipping lecture>>: I doubt it. There are plenty of other things to make him a naughty boy. <<Apparently our resolves are going to be tested again>>: Oh no! <<Why would you want Fire Storm to get the job?>>: Fire Storm is a black lesbian? <<The product of how accurately you know an object's position and momentum must be greater than some constant>>: Yes, I know that. But I'm fairly certain that you *can* know one or the other...just not both. <<does the uselessness of the information change because someone is there who recognizes it for what it is?>>: Yes. Without engineers, humanities majors would go around thinking the stuff they learned in class was important.

AOL is Satan on a stick.
-Dale Rubin

Josh "Imzadi" Wurzel - [@kicktothenuts.com]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Monday, April 8, 2002 03:18:06 AM
IP: 64.161.24.226

Last post today, I promise.

Josh><<It's called a "war hero". Every nation has had leaders who were in the military, they probably killed hundreds of people. Do we call them murderers?>> If I'm not mistaken, our friend is refering to the fact that, while a senior officer in the IDF, Sharon allowed Lebonese christian mercenaries to enter refugee camps in his area of responsibility. The mercs killed a touch short of a thousand refugees, and Sharon was held to be the one responsible for the incident by an Israeli court.
That's your war hero.

So... yeah. Sleep.
Gunjack "Humming Death On Locust Wings" Valentine
Monday, April 8, 2002 02:37:21 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Gunjack> <<who else?>>: Me, Warpmind, Imzadi. Wilek and Fire Storm are missing for the moment, but eventually they should return.
<<do I look like an art major to you?>>: Didn't you say something about an art history exam?
<<You suck>>: Actually, not yet.
<>: I mostly knew where to look it up. Though I would have been able to get the blood compnent and probably the cloting. Oh, and you're a naughty boy for skipping lecture.

Imzadi> <<Ooh, a flame war!>>: Apparently our resolves are going to be tested again.
<>: Why would you want Fire Storm to get the job?
<<It is my understanding that the Uncertainty principle dictates only that you cannot simultaneously know the location and velocity of an object>>: The product of how accurately you know an object's position and momentum must be greater than some constant.
<<Sadly, the font has been defined for me>>: I feel your pain.
<<Not a very good male, then>>: I do believe that was our point.
<<Sit through a humanities class and then ask that again>>: But does the uselessness of the information change because someone is there who recognizes it for what it is?
<<Welcome to Circular Arguments 101>>: I prefer to think of it as the first pi of a sine. I like to be able to trace back through a proof to double check the original contention.
<<In this school, the required courses frequently rotate teachers>>: Here essential ECE courses are offered once out in both fall and spring semesters, so if you miss it once, you have to wait another year for it to come around again.
<<Why would you even WANT to use that freezer afterwards>>: Well, I don't use it. Besides, I've never acutally used my fun sock in that capacity. It's more for show.
<<Fear not. Someone will pay you>>: Thank you for your words of comfort.
<<I'm under the impression that anon's don't count>>: I'm more leniant with the counting. My first post was a top ten, under the name J Random Lurker.

Lila> <<Saw "Labyrinth" for the first time>>: Way too many shots of Bowie's crotch.
<<developed minor crush on the (GIRL!!! that's a "hmm" moment for me)>>: Mmm...

Spacebabie> <<Tomorrow I can register for the fall>>: Same here, but it looks like I'll have to bus between periods again. Not fun, but I need another linguistics course before I get out of here.
<<That might be usefull when you need an emergency cold pack>>: What's the specific heat of silicone?

Warpmind> <<could you PLEASE take a good, long look at how you phrased it?>>: Sure. It really makes me wish I had fuly concieved it as a double entendre.

Fire Storm> <<With packing, mortgage crap>>: So you did get a new place. Hope it's a good one.

Gunjack> <<Yer moving? When did this happen!?>>: While you were out. Lady Mystic's father is selling the house, so they must find a new place.

Warpmind asked for this one a couple days back, but I only just found it (going two steps back to WinMX). From Jubei-Chan, it's Foleva. Sorry, that should read Forever.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscatway, NJ
Monday, April 8, 2002 01:49:36 AM
IP: 198.151.130.133

FS - Bad luck... Yer moving? When did this happen!? o.O *Must have missed something*

And in other news, maybe SJ was right. Maybe art majors ARE the only ones who disagree with Israel. After spending 12 hours thrashing them, I tried some art and succeeded beyond my wildest expectations.

Coincidence? You decide. ;)
Gunjack "Swirling As It Burns Your Lungs" Valentine
Monday, April 8, 2002 12:28:19 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Why all the complaints about long posts? I think they are good!

...

Not that I have had a chance to read them. With packing, mortgage crap, and the fact that I am not allowed ANY 'Net access at work, I just don't have the time right now.

Maybe some day...
In a galaxy far, far away...
Fire Storm
Sunday, April 7, 2002 11:56:54 PM
IP: 216.254.103.139

Lila><> I rather suspected you didn't, Ma'am. Unfortutunately, the dashing chap in the lab coat happens to be supporting exactly that.
In any case, please don't be offended. I was simply trying to make a point, and had no intention of painting you as a genocidal psycho.
Incidentally, it's usually like this. You get used to it... Or else they chase you screaming into a corner, and break out the chainsaws. : P

Greg><<Thanks for the laugh today, I needed it. This is by far the stupidest thing that has yet been said in this arguement. Where did you hear this BS from?>> Mmm..! smell that, MD? That's the smell of iiiiiignorance!
It works like this, Homes. The Jewish people want that specific little sliver of land for a REASON. That reason just happens to be the same one for renaming it after a theocracy that has been extinct for nearly two thousand years. The reason behind such odd manuevers is that the Jewish people see Israel as THEIR land, promised to them by God.
Incidentally, I must agree with MD. If you think the bible (or more specifically the OT; the Jewish Torah) is a load of crap, then why do you value the Jewish religious claim to the land over the Muslim claim to the land?
In any case the Jewish religious claims to Israel ignore a crucial point; While the Torah does detail God's promise of the land, it ALSO details his explicit promises to scatter the jews to the four winds, and to make them an object of scorn and derision should they disobey him. And then, in the latter portions of the Book, it details how the Israelites disobeyed God, and how God followed through on his promises by smashing their nation and scattering them to the four corners of the world.

To claim Israel was given to the Jews by God, you also have to admit that it was taken AWAY by God.
Gunjack "Can You Feel The Air A'Dancin" Valentine
Sunday, April 7, 2002 11:41:43 PM
IP: 192.133.129.4

::DPH walks in the CR, wearing clothing designed to protect fire fighters from heat. He hopes it will protect him from the heated discussion.::

Imzadi - <Did you check the mirror yet?> Very funny. I know what my mistakes are, but there are little quirks in Visual Basic. Once I started to track the bug in a program, and suddenly it disappeared. Then there is this business of writing data to a file. Visual Basic assigned it a value in a location where I did NOT tell it too. Luckily, I knew how to solve that problem. I feel like half the time I am programming I have to argue with my computer to keep the program to work. <WHY!? I don't understand why its so important that he wake you up.> It's about one thing: having control over my life. He does not understand the message of "Let me live my life, regardless of consequences". <Seriously though, PC's are tough because the companies come out with newer and better stuff all the time. > Too bad, Microshaft can't use its influence to help set timetables for when new products are released. Let one week be designated for release of new RAM, another for cd burners, etc. That would do wonders for increasing the sales of their product because people wouldn't be scared of buying right before the prices fall through the roof. <You don't get top 10 spots without your name.> I am adopting that policy when determining what spot I am on the top 10 list. <Just once, I'd like to see a story about a terrorist taking out a bunch of hippies in some random country.> Hmm. I wonder if anyone *would* condemn that action.

Is it me or is the number of anonymous posters been going up lately?

**Revenge on DC**
Sorry, but when it takes me 30 minutes to type up a message and it gets deleted twice, I get angry.

::DPH whistles and a lead-lined dune buggy appears with a rapid fire nuclear grenade launcher. DPH gets in the weapons area so he can personally oversee the shooting of DC and the vehicle. DPH finds DC in his target scope and starts firing 1 nuclear grenade per 5 seconds. He accidently destroys the Tea Table of Peace while trying to hit DC. Seconds later, Otto Mobile shows up with a fast car and DPH destroys the car and Otto Mobile with one shot. Strangely enough, a helicopter shows up to rescue DC and DPH destroys it, too. Minutes later, thanks to a carefull strategy of forcing DC to travel a certain direction, DPH manages to kill DC. Oddly enough, no radiation was caused in the CR by DPH's use of nuclear grenades.::
**END REVENGE ON DC**

Green Baron - <The Koran promotes the existence of a Jewish state and repsects them as people of the book.> That's interesting to learn.

The room wipe was when? Oh yea, the room was wiped last night and it's already 110K.
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, April 7, 2002 11:04:42 PM
IP: 204.94.193.36

*yawns* very tiring weekend....had to drive 4-5hrs Saturday morning to go to a wedding Satuday night in Memphis. The wedding was great and so was the reception party, but was tired and drunk when got back to my brother's place. we got back sometime after midnight...then waking up with a hangover and having lost an hour of sleep due to time change as well as having to get into the car and drive all the way back to MTSU which is another 4-5 hr drive. but it was still pretty enjoyable....

Replies:

Anonymous no baka> why not post a name when saying something? people tend to find the 'Anonymous' postings very annoying if there's no name.

Lila> getting Devirginized at RHPS is always fun....I go to see it in Nashville every month *grins* even got to be interviewed for a documentry on RHPS by some fellow MTSU students.

well, ja... *slowly fades away into thin air*
Gavin
Sunday, April 7, 2002 09:42:19 PM
IP: 161.45.210.171

I hope every one had a nice week end. Hey Josh your very sweet my sister told that you were. I guess she was wrong about you.
Anonymous
Sunday, April 7, 2002 09:03:23 PM
IP: 205.188.201.188

Greg B> That BS is common theology, which, since you have no faith, does not apply to you. In fact none of Judaism applies to you, which means the HOly Land isn't holy at all to you--which makes no sense why you support the Israelis taking over Jerusalem since they want it for it's holy factor.
Forgving me for learning this in my Judaism class from the readings by religious Jewish thinkers. I understand you have chosen to abandon the religion which Jews died for, but some of us still do belive that that is the reason why they were exiled. Sorry if my opinion is differant than yours, and sorry if I was arguing on a religious basis, I hope you can forgive me.
metaldemon
Sunday, April 7, 2002 05:28:15 PM
IP: 24.219.166.111

::Blinks sleepily, reads posts... backs away quickly::
Gunjack- Of course I do not condone referral to a race as vermin... If it came across as such, I beg pardon. I didn't mean to sound callous or in support of ::gags:: ethnic cleansing! Bad bad bad!
Spacebabie:I'd give you a hug if I could! Yea for happy things... fanfic and art.
-I'm just going to observe now, until the environment gets friendly again. I don't RUN from conflict, but hey, I'd rather enjoy posting in a room and not be worried about misinterpreted words, at least until you all know me better.
-Lila
Lila - [liejones@yahoo.com]
la, ca, usa
Sunday, April 7, 2002 04:45:24 PM
IP: 134.173.121.16

I wasn't going to make another post now, but you know what. I just need to tear into metaldemon's post here...

<<Let's not forget G-d exiled the Jews from the Holy Land for their sins of giving money to Pagan religions and forgetting to fully observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years.>> Umm, I don't remember this part. <<Jews like to balk that Jerusalem is their's, even though G-d basically said to get out.>> No, that was the Romans. <<They are a people without a nation for a reason.>> Thanks for the laugh today, I needed it. This is by far the stupidest thing that has yet been said in this arguement. Where did you hear this BS from?
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, April 7, 2002 04:45:00 PM
IP: 216.179.1.244

*A sympathy dove appears mid-air and flies to Spacebabie, turning into a chocolate fic-consolation dove as it lands next to her*

*fabric rips*

*She stumbles in, locates the jar of sanity. She exits with it through the curtains, beating it against her temple in an attempt to uncross her eyes, mumbling incoherently the entire time.*

Lynatired - [Lynati_1@hotmail.com]
Cyrway Appreciation League (of Inane Gargoyle Obsessees)
Sunday, April 7, 2002 03:14:22 PM
IP: 67.203.73.109

If I make this quick, I might be able to get some sleep before work tonight...

Mooncat><<But heck they must be important, I'm sure comments here on the mess that's been going on for forever will somehow affect whether palastines or isrealites will become victorious or affect the fighting between the two in some really significant, or heck, even insignificant manner.>> The point, dear mooncat, is whether or not we americans should support Israel. And since US policy is somewhat dictated by public opinion, exploring that public opinion is a worthwhile excersise. As for doing it on a Gargoyles comment room... *shrugs* this place has never had content restrictions. Until it does, politics are as valid a topic as anything else.

Greg><<Pull your heads out of the sand.>> Consider; I've been firmly pro-Israeli my entire life, until about a week ago. I truly loved the israelis. However, now I'm suddenly saying that their behavior cannot be condoned. That change is due to EVIDENCE. I hardly see how looking at evidence can be called burying my head in the sand.
I also find it interesting that you decline to even ATTEMPT to counter any of the facts and arguements presented. Tell me, Greg, where is the breakpoint for you? Where do you draw the line, and agree that a government's behavior is unacceptable?
...And you DO realize that you commended, without reservation, a post that essentially called for ethnic cleansing? I expect that you're a busy man, so maybe that small point escaped your notice.

Josh><<Only as unacceptable as it was for us to put the japanese in internment camps during WWII.>> There is no relation between the two. The Japanese went peacefully, were held (to my knowledge) peacefully, and returned peacefully at the conclusion of the war. Even so, the internment camps are a black mark on our nation.
The Palestinians have NOT gone peacefully (for which I condemn Arafat and the rest of the palestinian leaders), and the Israeli responce has been exceedingly brutal (for which I condemn Sharon and the rest of the Israeli government/IDF). Argueing about who started it first is irrelevent; both sides are wallowing in blood.
<<That's because Israelis are better armed and better trained.>> I should have explained this better last night. Listen close now, SJ...
If this were a conventional war, the above explanation would be valid. In the context of a terror/police conflict, however, it falls apart. This is because terror is a "Force Multiplier", meaning that terrorists can cause damage out of proportion to their numbers.
A terrorist has several important advantages over the intelligence/police groups that try to defeat him. One of the most important is that, unless his cell is compromised, he has total anonymity. "The terrorist swims among the population as a fish through the sea", and all that. As a result, it is exceedingly difficult to eliminate individual, isolated terrorists before they strike.
Both you and SJ seem to assume that those 2,254 palestinians killed were armed attackers struck down in battle.
Let's get technical. Suppose the average terror attack kills three isrealis, at the cost of one terrorist. That comes out to 104 incidents commited by terrorists. For the above stats to mesh, the IDF would have to eliminate *21.5 TERRORISTS* for each ONE that got through.

...Who was it that Greg said was in touch with reality?

Such performance in a hostile population is IMPOSSIBLE through legitimate means. Furthermore, if the IDF (or ANY counter-terror organization, or for that matter any police force whatsoever) had a sucsess rate of 21.5 / 1, the incidents would stop IMMEDIATELY.
A large percentage of those 2,254 palestinian civilians killed were just that; civilians. They were schoolchildren (accidentally?) shot by IDF snipers. They were kids throughing rocks killed by rubber bullets (or in some cases, live fire). They were innocent bystanders fragged during IDF assassinations of otherwise legitimate terrorist targets, due to excessive force used.
Until recently, I shrugged these sorts of things off as isolated incidents. And they are; Sharon does not, to my knowledge, wake up in the morning wondering how he can kill a few more palestinian noncombatants. There are simply too many "isolated incidents" to ignore, however, and the Israeli government has consistently refused to take serious disciplinary action.

<<You could try to turn this into a morality issue, but the fact remains that Israelis are provoked into their behavior.>> Excessive force is excessive force.
Q.Why did the pregnant Palestinian Woman run the roadblock?
A. To get to the hospital on the other side.
She was in labor, and she was shot to death where she stood. And this action on the part of the IDF might be defensible; after all, they are opperating under warlike conditions, and trying to run a heavily-armed roadblock does entail the risk of getting shot at. True, the IDF troopers appear to have made no attempt to identify or apprehend the intruder, but rather shot her dead on the spot. But after all, they ARE opperating under warlike conditions.
So what about another example? A car approaches an IDF roadblock, makes a quick U-turn, and heads the other way. Certianly a suspicious action, but the roadblock was not crossed. An appropriate action would be to stop the car and question the occupants, or perhaps to follow it.
The IDF responded by.... Hosing the car with automatic weapons, seriously (perhaps fataly; this happened friday, so all reports are not in) wounding the driver.
For making a U-Turn.
<<One less suicide bomber.>> The palestinians who died in ambulances were not terrorists. They were not wanted for anything, or even accused of anything, except perhaps of being palestinian. THEY WERE BARRED FROM REACHING MEDICAL TREATMENT, AND DIED SOON THERAFTER.

Greg. You told me to get my head out of the sand. If you can find a way to justify this action, please enlighten me.
To my knowledge, the official IDF response was that the road was for Jews only. To my knowledge, no serious disciplinary action was taken against the roadblock crew.

<> You fail to see how condemning an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few is dangerous?
...You're pulling my leg, aren't you?
<<Maybe if they stopped training to be the next 9/11 crew and got a JOB, they could try to build that life.>> And maybe their confinement to refugee camps, their legal status as second-class citizens, and the fact that Israelis hate them as much as they hate the israelis might have just a TEENSY bit of an impact on their attempt to do just that?
<<And if you respond to this with a complaint about their lousy economy, that's not israel's problem...>> On the countrary, Israel CREATED that problem by SEIZING THEIR HOMES AND LAND. Think, if you will, about what would happen to the US economy if we were suddenly stripped of all homes, real-estate, and infrastructure (factories, power plants, etc.).
<<How *do* civilized countries respond to terror? Is military reaction okay?>> ABSOLUTELY. The problem is not that the Israelis use force, the problem is that they often use it *indiscriminately*. In the Hawley article SJ posted, the general mentioned "complete, fully-thought-through, professional, well- executed violence" as being the answer, and I agree with him in most cases. Unfortunately, this is not what the IDF has been doing.
<> SJ (and you too) should know enough about the working mechanics of unconventional warfare to realise that those numbers do not fit any reasonable model. In a legitimate counterterror war, the terrorists invariably kill more people than the CTs kill terrorists. This sounds wrong, but remember that terrorists are killing indescriminately, whereas the CTs must pick off specific targets.
In any event, I probably owe an apology to SJ for my intemperate comment.
<<Well that's not exactly the Ghandi approach then, is it?>> This is why I hold the palestinians equally responsible; they've squandered every opportunity that came their way.

<<That depends. Are they going to try and kill you out of revenge?>> you have no way of knowing, AND NEITHER DO THE ISRAELIS. Thinking that the person MIGHT become a terrorist is not grounds for killing them. Anyone MIGHT become a terrorist.
<<Absolutely not. We should shoot them in the kneecaps instead.>> The scary part is, this is essentially what the IDF does.
<<what about all the suicide bombers? They've taken out a lot more than 312 people.>> If I'm not mistaken, that number INCLUDES the suicide bombings. I'm currently trying to find more statistics to compare it to... Anyone have a line on that sort of thing? preferably from a third-party source?
<<Many non-whites will argue this point.>> Many do. And if they are right, do you think that this is a GOOD thing?

<<Not a good strategy for passing.>> 92%, Bay-BEE. Biology is my personal ho. <<Its a type of blood cell, isn't it?>> Yup. Unfortunately, the question was rather more specific. <<They can do that?! >> Apparently.
<> Given the givens, I might agree. It DOES seem that a police state is the only short-term solution to the problems they have. And if they didn't overlook rampant abuses by the rank and file, I'd have no problem...

Lila><<Isn't it interesting though, that when a race is vermin, it's bad, but when an environmentalist says all humans are vermin, it's okay, because it doesn't discriminate?>> Sooo... you're argueing that it ISN'T bad to call a race "vermin"?
And I hate environmentalists.

That is all. The tagline (and yesterday's tag too) is from the Dance of the Isotope. Maybe I'll compose it some day.
Gunjack "Capering Through Jerusalem's Ashes" Valentine
Sunday, April 7, 2002 03:07:29 PM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Spacebabie> <<Point 1. Jerusalem was originally the home of the Jews thousands of years before this recent mess.>>

Let's not forget G-d exiled the Jews from the Holy Land for their sins of giving money to Pagan religions and forgetting to fully observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years. Jews like to balk that Jerusalem is their's, even though G-d basically said to get out. They are a people without a nation for a reason.

GB> America also has the opportunity to prevent millions of Muslims from dying. SO, we can side with one and support them slaughtering the other people, or we can side with the other side and support their slaughter. I applaud Bush for his decision to not side with any of them and to try for peace through non-violence. I still don't support his methods of erradicating terrorism though, but that sholdn't be a surprise. ;)
ciao
metaldemon
Sunday, April 7, 2002 02:49:42 PM
IP: 24.219.166.111

Oy I really am pissed when I forget my color and make a typo like that.

It's Need to get
not need yo get.

Spacebabie
Sunday, April 7, 2002 12:31:13 PM
IP: 67.24.16.12

Rant Warning_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I AM PISSED!!!!!

Already the ADV fic class is filled up. How the hell am I suposed to graduate??? I didn't even have a chance. to register. The computer won't let me register till 9:00 tomorrow. There is only one ADV fic class. Lain and Gunjack don't need yo get their heads out of the sand..its the idiots at UCF. They need to hire more professors...

:::Cusses and does the Noie Ya ya dance, stamping out the flames:::
End Rant____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Sunday, April 7, 2002 12:28:44 PM
IP: 67.24.16.12

Josh -- << This from the woman who posts up to 8 times per day, with stuff that is a LOT less relevant / important / interesting to anyone.>>

Actually, I think I mostly post two or three times a day if that much, but on the extreme few days I post more I don't go on and on for pages. A couple of short paragraphs and I'm outie. As for relevance (sp?) I wonder why SJ's rants about palastine and isreal on a gargoyle's comment room are more relevent then oh... my tiny comments on garg fan art, garg fan story, or direct comments to other garg fans here in the CR. But heck they must be important, I'm sure comments here on the mess that's been going on for forever will somehow affect whether palastines or isrealites will become victorious or affect the fighting between the two in some really significant, or heck, even insignificant manner. Interesting? As much as anyone else's trivial "this is what happened to me today" comments, yours included. *shrug*

But yeah, I think it would be more considerate if you are going to post pages and pages of text, to do it *after* the top ten is finished. But, whatever.

Well, I'm going to get back to my non-relevant activities of writing some Gargoyles fan fic, and maybe do a little more Gargoyles fan art. Perhaps not terribly important in the great scheme of things *^_^*, but maybe a few people will find them interesting.

ciao
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Sunday, April 7, 2002 12:22:02 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

OOPS! i didnt realize that was so frikin long!

sorry everyone, next time ill link!
lain
Sunday, April 7, 2002 12:17:15 PM
IP: 64.228.193.155

An Open Letter to American Jews
By Assaf Oron [Israeli army reservist]

Dear People,

Yesterday I was informed of an interesting phenomenon: a peace-supporting Jewish organization called Tikkun published an ad in favor of us, the Israeli Reservist refuseniks [now over 1,000 Iraeli soldiers officers & generals], and was immediately bombarded with hate mails and phones from other American Jews. What is more interesting is that even other Jews considering themselves supporters of peace have denounced the Tikkun ad, to the extent that some of the Tikkun Advisory Board members are resigning in order to minimize the personal damage to themselves. This has so saddened, alarmed and angered me, that I find myself setting aside a half-day at the eve of Passover, and writing this open letter to you all. As is my habit, it is quite long, so please bear with me.

Most of the 'civilized' attacks, so I understand, were seemingly aimed at this or that detail of the Tikkun ad. This is nothing new to me. Over the past two months since we came out with our own ad, I've heard and read so many specific arguments about specific aspects of our act. They range from petty nit-picking to plain ludicrous, and each and every one of them can be refuted to dust in a matter of minutes. But the moment you refute them, new specific arguments sprout up like mushrooms. It is clear that there is something very general and non-specific behind all this criticism. Therefore, if you allow me, I will start from the general and only later turn to a couple of these specific issues.

The general theme is the tribal theme. A very very loud voice (and in Israel nowadays, it is the only voice that is allowed to be fully heard) keeps shouting that we are in the midst of a war between two tribes: a tribe of human beings, of pure good -- the Israelis -- and a tribe of sub-human beings, of pure evil -- the Palestinians. This voice is so loud, that it has found its way even to the op-ed pages of the New York Times (William Safire, March 24 or 25). To those who find this black-and-white picture a bit hard to believe, the same voice shouts that this is a war of life and death. Only one tribe will survive, and so even if we are not purely good, we must lay morality and conscience to sleep, shut up and fight to kill--or else, the Palestinians will throw us into the sea.

Does this ring a bell to you? It does to me. As a little child growing up in Israel under Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan, all I heard was that the Arabs are inhuman monsters who want to throw us into the sea, they understand only force, and since our wonderful IDF has won the Six Day War they know not to mess with us anymore --or else. And of course, we must keep the Liberated Territories to ourselves, because there's no one to talk with. Then came the Yom Kippur war, and for a child of 7 it was the perfect proof that indeed the Arabs want to throw us into the sea, and what a great opportunity it was for our glorious IDF to teach them a lesson. I prayed for the war to continue to its natural and final end --the complete surrender of all Arab armies. I was too small to evaluate, then, how the war really ended; all these cease-fires and talks were too complicated and boring, much more boring than a war.

And it seemed humiliating that WE should withdraw in these cease-fires; I Remember that the re-opening of the Suez Canal was portrayed in our mass media as a kind of defeat.. A few years passed and a funny thing happened: those throw-us-into-the-sea Arabs came to talk with us, and in exchange for all of Sinai they would sign a full peace. The IDF chief of staff (the late Motte Gur, later a Labor Party minister) shouted that it is a hoax, that we should not believe Saadat, but the politicians had to sign. Already a teenager, I went and protested against the withdrawal from Sinai. It seemed strange to me that most of the demonstrators were orthodox Jews. After all, it was a purely logical issue: the Arabs are not to be trusted, that's what we've learned from day one. Well, lucky for the country, the government and the majority of the people employed a different logic, and the peace with Egypt was not missed.

But the throw-us-into-the-sea paradigm immediately found new fields for play. There was an inconvenient reality on the Northern border, and even though the forces on the other side (Palestinians 'Phew') had strictly adhered to a secret cease-fire for about a year, they were Arabs and therefore could not be trusted. So we talked ourselves into invading Lebanon and setting up a friendlier regime there. The mastermind of the invasion was defense minister Ariel Sharon, and Shimon Peres, then head of opposition, voted together with his party in favor of the invasion. Only later, when it turned sour, and after many refuseniks already sat in jail, would the main opposition turn against the whole affair. For me at 16 it was also a turning point. When I understood that the government had lied to me in order to sell me this war, I turned from 'center-rightist' to 'leftist'. Sadly enough, it has taken me almost 20 more years, in a slow and painful process, to understand how deeply the lies and self-delusion are rooted in our collective perception of reality.

Anyway, when Peres withdrew most of our forces from Lebanon in 1985, the Arabs could still not be trusted. And so, to soothe our endless paranoia and suspicion, we created that perpetual source of death and crime ironically known as "the Security Zone." It took many years, a lot of blood and Four Mothers -- against almost all politicians, generals, and columnists -- to finally pull us out of Lebanon. In the long and hard way, we learned that even the Lebanese are human beings whose rights must be respected. But not the Palestinians. Because the Palestinians are too painfully close, like a rival sibling (and, may I add, because they have always been so weak), we have singled them out for a special treatment. Having them under our rule, we've allowed ourselves to trample them like dirt, like dogs. We've been doing it even to our own Palestinian citizens (especially before 1966), but we have perfected Our treatment in this strange no man's land created in 1967, and known as the Occupied Territories. There we have created an entirely hallucinatory reality, in which the true humans, members of the Nation of Masters, could move and settle freely and safely, while the sub-humans, the Nation of Slaves, were shoved into the corners, and kept invisible and controlled under our IDF boots. I know. I've been there. I was taught how to do this, back in the mid-1980's.

I did and witnessed as a matter of fact, deeds that I'm ashamed to remember to this day. And fortunately for me, I did not have to witness or do anything truly "pornographic", as some friends of mine experienced. Since 1987, this cruel, impossible, unnatural, insulting reality in the Territories has been exploding in our face. But because of our unshakeable belief that the Palestinians are monsters who want to throw us into the sea, we reacted by trying to maintain what we've created at all costs. This meant of course employing more and more and more force, with the natural result of receiving more and more and more force in return. When a fledgling and hesitating peace process tried to work its way through this mess, one major factor (perhaps THE factor) that undermined it and voided its meaning was our establishment's endless fear and suspicion of The Other. To resolve this fear and suspicion, we chose the insane route of demanding full control of The Other throughout the process. When this Other finally decided that we're cheating him out of his freedom (and having too many mental disorders of his own to accommodate ours as well), violence erupted, and all our ancient instincts woke up.

There they are, we said in relief, now we see their true face again. The Arabs want to throw us into the sea. There's no one to talk with ('no partner", in our beloved ex-PM's words), and they understand only force. And so we responded as we know and love, with more and more and more force. This time, the effect was that of putting out a fire with a barrel of gasoline. And that's the moment when I said to myself, NO, I'm not playing this game anymore.

But what about the existential threat, you may ask? Well I ask you, have you not eyes? Don't you see our tanks strolling in Palestinian streets every other day? Don't you see our helicopters hovering over their neighborhoods choosing which window to shoot a missile into? What type of existential need are we answering in trampling the Palestinians? Prevention of terror, I hear you say. Let me use the wonderful words of my friend Ishay Rosen-Zvi: You are fighting against terror? What a joke. The Israeli government, in its policies of Occupation, has turned the Territories into a greenhouse for growing terror!!! We have sown the seeds, grown them, nurtured them -- and then our blood is spilled, and the centrist-right-wing politicians reap the benefits. Indeed, terror is the right-wing politician's best friend. You know what? When you treat millions of people like sub-humans for so long, some of them will find inhuman strategies to fight back. Isn't that what the Zionists, and other Jewish revolutionaries argued about a hundred years ago in order to explain the questionable strategies of survival that Jews used in Europe? Didn't our forefathers say, Let us live like human beings, and see how we'll act just like other human beings? So here's the deal. I hope that the first part of this letter made it clear that I don't buy the "they want to throw us into the sea" crap. It's just a collective self-delusion of ours. But more importantly, I don't see tribes. I see people, human beings. I believe that the Palestinians are human beings like us. What a concept, eh? And before everything else, before EVERYTHING else, we must treat them like human beings without demanding anything in return. And no (to all die-hard Barak fans), throwing them a couple of crumbs in which they can set up pitiful, completely controlled Bantustans in between our settlements and bypass roads, and believing it to be a great act of "generosity', does NOT come close to answering this basic requirement. This requirement is NOT negotiable; moreover, in a perfect demonstration of historical justice, it is a vital requirement for the survival of our own State.

After that, and based on the lessons of modern history, especially that of the Arab-Israeli conflict (as was briefly described above), I do believe that the Palestinians will calm down, and that the elusive "Security" and peace will finally come upon us (as it did, incidentally, for almost two whole years between Wye 1998 and Camp David 2000). I don't have any insurance policy for that (well --almost none, except the solemn promise of the entire Arab world), but remember - I have this funny notion that they are human beings. In any case, we are seeing now all too well what type of insurance policy the opposite paradigm is providing us. In the meanwhile, I refuse to be a terrorist in my tribe's name. Because that's what it is: not a "war against terror', as our propaganda machine tries to sell. This is a war OF terror, a war in which, in return for Palestinian guerrilla and terror, we employ the IDF in two types of terror. The more visible one are the violent acts of killing and destruction, those which some people still try to explain away as "surgical acts of defense." The worse type of terror is the silent one, which has continued unabated since 1967 and through the entire Oslo process.
It is the terror of Occupation, of humiliation on a personal and collective basis, of deprivation and legalized robbery, of alternating exploitation and starvation. This is the mass of the iceberg, the terror that is itself a long-term greenhouse for counter-terror. And I simply refuse to be a terrorist and criminal, even if the entire tribe denounces me. That leads me to the first specific subject: are we, the refuseniks, being persecuted and denounced, or are we enjoying the wonderful Israeli tolerance and democracy and exploiting it to make trouble? Well, I must admit that this is not yet the USSR or Pinochet's Chile, and at least the Jews here enjoy a relative democracy (describing it as vibrant or tolerant would be a gross error, but that is a different subject altogether; maybe in another letter). I first must point out that the government and IDF also enjoy the image of 'letting us speak', and it serves them well. Secondly, in a rather sophisticated manner the establishment (with the generous and voluntary help of the mass media) is effectively shutting us up. The media has decided for us that there is no opposition. Thus, a demonstration of 20,000 is reported in 5 seconds at the late-night edition, and a demonstration of 500 outside a military prison is completely ignored. The fact that right now there are over a dozen refuseniks in jail – the largest number in twenty years -- is hidden from the Israeli public. The story of Captain (resrv.) Itai Haviv and Sergeant (resrv.) Yair Yeffeth, who demanded a full military trial in which they could prove that refusal is innocence and that the order to serve in the Territories is illegal, was not told anywhere except for a brief mention in the back pages of Haaretz. So the public, of course, didn't learn that the IDF evaded answering these demands, and that Itai Haviv will spend the Seder night in prison following a 'disciplinary hearing.' I hope the readers are intelligent enough to know that if the media wanted, these stories would make the headlines. Still, you keep hearing about us. That's the key word, ABOUT us. But you don't hear us. You just hear people explaining, analyzing, mostly (in a ratio of 99 to 1) attacking us. We have become the perfect 'hate hour' figures, to reunite the tribe against (have you read 1984?) Petty "volunteer" groups who organized against us, a mayor who called upon local governments not to hire us, and a group of industrialists who called employers to fire us, have all won their moment in the spotlight. No one cared to mention that these are blatantly illegal calls (no, ‘the law' is remembered only when we 'break' it). No one has tried to set limits to this discussion. Moreover, the prime minister in one of his rare public addresses blamed us for the wave of terror (us, not his catastrophic policies). The IDF chief of staff can't stop talking about us; he sees us as a bunch of inciters with a hidden agenda. So, ironically, the only thing protecting us from long-term ‘gulag' imprisonment and from losing our jobs is public opinion - the rather large pockets of support and sympathy among key sectors in the Israeli public, and yes, support ads such as the one published by Tikkun. The moment the government or IDF will think the lights are out, and no one sees or cares -- they will find or invent the 'legal' clause (Israeli politicians are experts in this) and throw those they believe to be our "leaders" to jail for long terms. Remember, even poor Abie Nathan was thrown in for two years, just because he dared speak with PLO personnel about peace. But that's nothing, because the moment our government will sense a "lights out" situation - a huge terror attack, an American attack on Iraq - there will be a horrible bloodbath in the Territories, compared to which the last year and a half will be remembered as a happy picnic.

And that brings me to the second specific issue, that of the Nazi allusion. Some readers thought that the way the Tikkun ad said "obeying orders" was an allusion to Nazi murderers' claim that they were "just obeying orders." Rabbi Lerner has rightly pointed out to these readers, that automatic execution of orders is a characteristic of all dictatorship, not just the Nazi one, while refusal on moral grounds is a sign of democracy. I agree, but let me be less polite and politically correct. After all, it's just my country that's going up in smoke as I write. What is this? Does Israel have the exclusive monopoly of labeling all its rivals as Nazis, and everyone else has to shut up, even when reality starts speaking for itself? Parties that support the essentially Nazi idea of deporting all Palestinians from the country, have been part of our Knesset and our "legitimate" political map since 1984. Recent opinion polls show that 35% of the Jewish public now supports this "solution", as it is sometimes called. Leaders, Rabbis, and just plain folk feel free to call openly in the mass media to eradicate Palestinian cities with or without their tenants. Last weekend, Gen. (res.) Effi Eitam, fresh out of the military and all ready to take the leadership of the religious public and become a deputy or alternative to Netanyahu, received a flattering cover story on Haaretz supplement. He unfolded his chilling ideology, calling to expel those Palestinians who don't want to remain in the Galilee and West Bank as serfs, to Jordan, and from Gaza to Sinai. And he said this: why should us, the country poorest in land resources, bear the burden of solving the Palestinian problem?

Well I don't know about you, but I remember some of the Nazi rhetoric in that dark period between the Kristallnacht of 1938 and the beginning of the war, when Jews were expelled from Germany but could find no safe haven anywhere else. When I see a retired IDF general and rising political star use the exact same Nazi rhetoric on Israel's most "liberal" newspaper, without any criticism by his interviewer or the editors -- my hair just stands on my head in horror.

Let's move from the political scene back to the ground. My friend, Captain (Res.) Dan Tamir, decided to refuse to serve in the Territories about a year ago, after he realized what he'd done as a reserve regiment's intelligence officer a few weeks before that. He realized he had laid out the plans to convert a large Palestinian town into a closed ghetto. You can find his full statement on our website, www.seruv.org.il. The vast majority of Palestinians in the Territories now starve in such ghettos; in those days of mercy when they are allowed to leave them by foot and perhaps catch a taxi, these taxis are forbidden from using most of the paved roads in the region.

But why listen to a "leftist"? Let's hear it from senior IDF officers. One of the top commanders in the Territories was quoted in Haaretz (Jan. 25) as saying that in order to prepare for potential battles in dense urban neighborhoods, the IDF must learn, if necessary, how the German army "operated" in the Warsaw Ghetto.

A week later, the reporter confirmed this quote and the fact that this is a widespread opinion in the IDF, and went further to morally defend it. A small number of people, including myself, tried to raise a scandal over this. One letter to the editor was published in Haaretz. A much tougher letter, which I wrote, was never published, nor was my plea for a phone discussion with an editor ever answered. The issue just died down. No one in Israel or in the Jewish public abroad was interested.

Where were all these holy souls, who now scold Tikkun because they indirectly allude to the Nazi horror, where were they all when a senior IDF officer proudly called, "in order to beat the Palestinians, let's be Judeo-Nazis"? In my letter to Haaretz I went further. Knowing the IDF mentality and adding one to one, I concluded that the IDF is operationally prepared to invade refugee camps - an utter, indefensible war crime - and through this leak to the press it is starting to pressure the government and prepare the public opinion for the invasion. The letter was not published. It was sent on February 2. A few weeks later we all saw the horrors of the refugee camp invasions and the bloody revenge attacks that followed culminating on Passover eve. And you know what? Army generals and colonels morally and professionally pat themselves on the back, because these invasions "prevented terror", and killed only dozens and not thousands. (Note: in fact, the major reason limiting the bloodshed was the "terrorists" responsible decision not to turn the camps into all-out battlegrounds. But this may change in the next round.)

In truth, I have little hope that the Israeli public will wake up. The Israeli public, in its fear and confusion, has made a decision (aided by the politicians and mass media) to go to sleep and wake up only ‘after it is all over'. But it won't be over, because while our mind sleeps our muscles tighten the death grip, instead of doing the only sensible thing (which requires an open mind) -- which is to let go. Will you guys join the hypocrite mobs who sing lullabies to Israel and pounce upon the refuseniks, upon Tikkun, to shut us up? Or will you finally take responsibility and be the true friends that Israel needs now -- even if it means not being "nice" to Israel for a while? As you sit tonight at the Seder table, please remember the dozen or so refuseniks that spend this Seder in a military jail.

More importantly, please remember the thousand or so people, three quarters Palestinians nd one quarter Israelis, who were here with us a year ago and have been murdered. Most of them could have been here with us, if you and we had acted sooner. We have now acted, done what little we can do. Please think of the many thousands that may be doomed soon, if you continue sitting on the fence. May you have a happy Holiday of Freedom, Please help us struggle free from fear, racism, hatred and the deaths they produce.

Yours,
Assaf Oron
lain
Sunday, April 7, 2002 12:14:40 PM
IP: 64.228.193.155

Well, well, well. I can't leave you alone for one day. I just have one thing to say to you SJ.

Carry on SJ, carry on. It's refreshing to see that a few of us live in the real world.

Lain, Gunjack> Pull your heads out of the sand.
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, April 7, 2002 11:50:41 AM
IP: 216.179.1.244

*Warpmind strolls in, the fingers on his right hand looking stiff and weary.*
Geesh, who'da thought my hand would get like this from studying GURPS rulebooks and such for good characters and then writing them all down? Oh, well, with almost all the characters chosen and ready for the game, *smirk* Sending a priest on a tour to IOU... I'm SUCH a fiend... };)

Christine: Ah, gotcha. So I still have a little time. :)

Jan: When it comes to Wilek having a Mr. Thingy - for some reason, I don't really think he's truly aware of THAT Mr. Thingy. The Mr. Thingy Gside and I were referring to is the torture device first designed by Mr. Gary Larson. (Any other Thingies in Wilek's possession are likely to be sorely neglected, judging by comments he has made in the CR...) ;)

Gside: Amigo... you and I both know what you meant by Wilek's acquisition of Mr. Thingy... but could you PLEASE take a good, long look at how you phrased it? Õõ

Josh: "Pipe of Stoning" may or may not be redundant, depending on the definition of "stoned"... *Evil smirk* And, of course, how far its effect reaches.

As for the whole Israel/Palestine mess which is currently being argued back-and-forth... Seeing as I'm the Norwegian guy in the flock here (And don't think I didn't notice that little snippet about the Norwegians in that report you posted, SJ... *Snicker* If that General only knew... uh, I mean... *Cough*), and Norway seems to be going in as a peacemaker down there (or, at least, trying to, whatever THAT is worth), I should make a few points. Back in the 40's, when the UN declared Israel as a sovereign nation, the Palestinians refused, and got shafted. For which they've been rather crabby ever since (can't really blame'em on that point). Try to dig up a map of the ORIGINAL UN charter for the state of Israel. Compare it to the current map of Israel. Seems like Israel's been growing a bit, doesn't it? Whenever Palestinian have blown up civilians in Israel, the Israeli army has been vicious in its retaliations. And, they've allowed torture under certain conditions up until, what, '99? (I'm a bit fuzzy on when they stopped, so please forgive the inaccuracy there.)Now, the way I see it, Israel's biggest "crime" here is to penalize Palestinians, as a gestalt, for crimes committed by suicide bombers and other terrorists. And now, they're so utterly fed up that they're going after Arafat himself. Looks to me as though there may be peace down there in our lifetimes, actually. *Looks grimly at the maps.* Eternal peace, that is... unless by some miracle the civilians on BOTH sides wise up and throw their respective governments. Or maybe we could have the Israeli and Palestinian leaders get stoned/drunk together , or duke it out in the ring, or compete peacefully. *Sigh* But we all know how likely THAT is, right? So with all that's been said and done there, I fear that - and this is not by any means acknowledging this as a valid means to any end in a civilized world - genocide is imminent. And if it comes to that, well... let's hope Israel proves stronger, 'cause if Islamists take Israel, then I think the rest of the world is pretty much doomed...

Well, on that grim note, I'll bid you adieu... for today.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmind@hotmail.com]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Sunday, April 7, 2002 10:40:46 AM
IP: 193.217.216.67

Yuck, Springing ahead sucks.

I'm gonna make a few points about this Palestine and Israeli situation.

Point 1. Jerusalem was originally the home of the Jews thousands of years before this recent mess.

Point B. Where the hell were the Palestinians when their fellow Muslims where being slaughtered in Bosnia?

Point C. Palestine doesn’t think too highly of Christians and Americans either.

Ok I expressed my points.

Now I’m pissed.

Why cause I was working on a fic yesterday when the power blipped and I lost all my unsaved data.

Tomorrow I can register for the fall. Wish me luck than I can get the classes I need to graduate in December.

Jan<<<My mouth starts hurting, my gums become sore, and I get physically sick to my stomach.>>>As long as you didn’t throw up on the dentist, although I felt like vomiting from than gunk used to take an impression. It tasted bad…but not as bad as Nyquil. And thanks for the stupid criminal story. I read them in Anne Landers and I watch Headlines on Leno…but I can never get enough.

Rayvn<<<However, I *do* have a problem with needles ... I make sure to warn doctors if there's any needles involved with anything being done to me that I can't handle 'em, and don't want to know when they do it or explain it to me or anything.>>>My dentist was gentle I didn’t even feel the needle go in and he squirted in the novacain very slowly so I wouldn’t feel pressure. I told him ist not needles that I fear, but hornets, wasps, and yellow jackets.

Leo>>>Thanks for the story..I would have kicked the flasher in the nuts but I’m guessing the zipper would hurt more::: Remembers There’s Something About Mary:::

Gside<<<I'm thinking of moving mine in the freezer with my fun sock.>>>That might be usefull when you need an emergency cold pack

Josh<<<It's gonna feature a mongolian grill.>>>Yum<<<Of course, with Grade D meat served by the university, its sure to suck.>>>Let me guess the knee jerk, vegetarian, PETA card carrying uberliberals won’t allow you to have decent meat?<<<The thin one or the fat one?>>>Well I am thin..not Laura Flynn-Boyle, anorexic thin, but I’m not chunky.<<>>For the gooey stuff or the bsb?<<<NO! Giving away nukes is BAD.>>>How about Napalm or stink bombs?<<<How about "in breasts"?>>>You keep implants in your breasts???<<<a 5 page engineering paper can be a killer.>>>Only if you have an evil printer…which I don’t anymore. <<<Ooh, a flame war! >>>No just flame diarrhea <<<Sadly, the US has come down with a severe case of vaginitis ;-) >>>So when is the US going to get the “Time of the month?”

Gunjack<<<I've come to the conclusion that Israel is a fascist state.>>>Wrong. They just finally standing up for themselves. Like when the straight A student finally kicks the ass of the school bully.

SJ>>>I think that was one of your most well researched posts ever, and not bad for lucky number seven in the top ten.

Aaron<<<SJ just said pretty much what I wanted to say, and in a more conscise, well-reasoned mannor. >>>I could kiss you, but I don’t want to anger Mara.

“TPB=SOD Typical Publishing Behavior is Shitting On Dreams” ~Piers Anthony

Spacebabie The Mara no Miko - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Sunday, April 7, 2002 10:13:38 AM
IP: 67.24.16.12

I've been absent of late, mainly because my on-line time is more limited, but I will have inet in my room before too long, though the wonderful Deutsch Telekom has not reinstalled my phones.

A few comments.

Israel and Palesstine> Yes, I ahve a reaosn for putting the ss in Palesstine. There is something so distrubed with the culture that teenagers strap bombs to themselves and kill innocent people. The Police Chief of a Palesstinian city had a bomb factory. Okay, so the Palesstinians are the underdogs. If three KKK members march into Harlem shouting the "n" word, they are underdogs, too. The otehr Arab countires are always decrying teh fate of Palesstinians, but tehy do nothing to help. They exploit the poor conditions of their fellow Arabs to show their hatred for Isreal. Hezbollah, Hamass, and Islamic Jihad are no different from Al Qaeda. They are terrorits groups. I'lla dmit Israel is being harsh and its taking lives, but tehy've been fighting shit liek this for teh last four thousand years. Let's not forget that thsi is also war. Peace does not exist here. This area is in a state of war. Israel can make concessions all they want, but Arafat will not be happy until Israel is pushed into the seas and they have slaughetred every man in a yarmulke. I admit it would be nice if both sides would stop the fighting, as the Vatican asked, and as a Catholic, I can see that as a solution, but that ain't gonna happen. The best thing the Church can do is to care for the wounded and give humanitarian aid. First, Israel and Palestine must have the honesty to declare war. Let them duke it out, instead of the contant trickle of bloodshed.

As for America's role, we have a chance to prevent 6 million Jews from being slaughtered. Let's not ahve it happen again this century.

With teh exception of Turkey and Jordan, teh Middle east has been overrun with raidcal leaders and a hatred towards peopel of different views. The US, as well as Britain and France are guilty of some of the problems, and it is our duty to clean up mistakes we've made throughout the world. Now, the US with the UK, and Turkey need to step in and work on just kicking everyone's butt.

As for poor Palestine, they backed teh Nazis in WWII, USSR in teh Cold War, Sadaam in the Gulf War,a nd we get bombed they celebrate. The day before we get bombed, the US was considering recognizing Palestine as a state of its own. Afetr WWII, Allied Forces restructured Germany, but tehy still didn't do enough as Germna kids didn't elarn about the Holocaust until the 70s. Before we have another Holocaust, we need to do the same for whole region. The hatred is passed own form generation to generation by raidcal fundamentalists. The Koran promotes the existence of a Jewish state and repsects them as people of the book. Maybe being raised in America makes it possibel for me to see Arabs and Jews living together without killing each other. I realize know that I would be dreaming if that was possible, and as an American, I would side with a trusted allay than peopel who wanted me dead simply for being a western infidel.

Peace in our time, at any cost: remember when that was last said.

Aaron> I always thought you were part Jewish. I don't know why or why that matters, but its funny that I was right.

I'll be back to post some more, in due time.

Peace is great, but we can't always get what we want.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Hanau, The country Plaestinians love to read early 20th century history about
Sunday, April 7, 2002 08:45:10 AM
IP: 140.156.101.181

Dang... a long fun fun argument and I was busy in the real world! I wish now that I'd posted earlier!This weekend has been... eventful! Saw "Labyrinth" for the first time... found David Bowie hot DESPITE frightwig mullet. Rocky Horror on Friday, where I was ceremoniously "devirginized" and developed minor crush on the (GIRL!!! that's a "hmm" moment for me) playing Frank. Saddened by lousy quality of Death to Smoochy today, then rode a mechanical bull at a party tonite (proud to say I didn't fall off, but kept my seat even when my cute jeans ripped...grr.) As for replies to the discussion, as it were... I have some opinions, but they've already been stated, and in a far more informed if not concise manner than I could have put them. Bravo, Sevarius.
Isn't it interesting though, that when a race is vermin, it's bad, but when an environmentalist says all humans are vermin, it's okay, because it doesn't discriminate? Hope all had a decent weekend.
"You remind me of the babe.WHAT BABE?
The babe with the power. WHAT POWER?
The power of Voodoo. WHO DO?
You do. DO WHAT?
Remind me of the babe!"-Labyrinth
::Lila crawls off to bed, sore from Rocky and bullriding::

Lila - [liejones@yahoo.com]
LA, CA, USA
Sunday, April 7, 2002 07:37:09 AM
IP: 134.173.121.16

Grrrr. I called Apple back today, after we spent a while last night swapping base stations so that I could have a physical connection to the internet. After explaining my problem...twice...they sent me some script to gather info about my machine, which they'll use to research the problem.

But no solution. Worse, they won't *do* anything to remedy their hardware/software problem.

And I worked my butt off on two assignments that I couldn't finish. Argh.

Ooh, a flame war!

replies

DPH: <<when I do find out who in heck is messing with one of my programs I am working on>>: Did you check the mirror yet? <<A man will get might angry when his precious sleep is interrupted>>: Especially if that man is a college age person. <<He has threated to come by in person if he can't reach me by phone>>: WHY!? I don't understand why its so important that he wake you up. <<Are you sure that you didn't give Imzadi any ideas?>>: I don't need someone else to give me ideas. <<Did you have any "voluntary" forms to fill out? Ones about what your race was?>>: Yup. I told them I was a black lesbian from detroit. <<when in heck is the best time to buy a pc or upgrades for an existing pc?>>: Never. Buy a mac 8-). Seriously though, PC's are tough because the companies come out with newer and better stuff all the time. Apple has a pretty much set schedule they adhere to, and the best time to buy a new mac is right after an upgrade cycle (usually at a MacWorld Expo). <>: You're a sucker. <>: It is my understanding that the Uncertainty principle dictates only that you cannot simultaneously know the location and velocity of an object. It doesn't say anything about it being impossible for the object to be still. <>: I do my part.

Gunjack: <>: Its a type of blood cell, isn't it? <<an RA and TWO COPS decide to, y'know, RANDOMLY SEARCH MY ROOM>>: They can do that?! What kind of a fascist school do you go to!? <<I've come to the conclusion that Israel is a fascist state>>: I don't think I can argue with you. But I also don't think that any other type of government would work in their situation.

Sevarius: <<It's not about land, it never was>>: Actually, I think its entirely about land, and they're using religious differences as an excuse. <>: Sadly, the US has come down with a severe case of vaginitis ;-) <<It’s kind of cowardly>>: Kind of!? <<without out all of the pathetic self-loathing some of you seem to have>>: and the pathetic hippyness. <<yet when 9-11 happened, you said that we (the USA) had it coming>>: Just once, I'd like to see a story about a terrorist taking out a bunch of hippies in some random country. <<What can I say? When it comes to war, Israel kicks ass>>: Exactly. Doesn't mean they're terroizing them. In all of Israel's wars, they've never lost one F-15. Are the horrible people for demoralizing enemy air forces!? <<It's a basic fact that when someone sets out with the specific goal of trying to kill you, you go out and kill him>>: No, you see in hippy-land, just sending waves of love will make him not want to kill you. And even if he does kill you, you shouldn't care, and no one should punish him, because he won't kill anyone else. And even if he does kill someone else, you shouldn't punish him, because that person had it coming. And then he can kill someone else... <<We will murder you at every opportunity, in every place, at any time - even on the holiest of your days>>: Logically, they should retaliate on such a day. <<This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy League university to say it>>: Or a Berkeley humanities student. <<Who's killing us here, the Norwegians?>>: Hey, you have to watch out for those 6' tall blond chicks. <<no matter what your daughter's political science professor says>>: Ignore anyone with a degree in PoliSci. <<NY Times article>>: God, that was SOOOO written by a democrat. Can'tcha just smell it? Couldn't you just have linked to that article?

Tribun: <<typical American thinking: Support Israel at any cost>>: That's not true. But the American government does typically support Israel. <<the murderer of thousends of Palestinians refugees in the 80's is now prime minister of Israel is shocking>>: It's called a "war hero". Every nation has had leaders who were in the military, they probably killed hundreds of people. Do we call them murderers?

Anonymous: <<About Israel/Palestine. "F%$& 'em both">>: No no. F%$& you for flaming and not posting your name, you wuss.

Lain: <<it must be nice to see everything so cleanly>>: About as nice as it is to sit back with your warm fuzzy thoughts and know that the whole world will be better just by the power of your warm fuzzy thoughts. <<if YOU want to support a state born from terrorist action>>: I'm sorry, is this sentence about Israel or not? Cuz it sounds like the same shit that gets pulled by all the Arab countries surrounding Israel. How come you don't shed a tear for the teenagers killed in school bus bombings, but as soon as someone says "Hey! I'm gonna kick your ass!" in just retaliation, its "they're bad people". <<is pretty far up there on the list of terrorist-supporting states. *coughcoughisraelcoughcough*>>: The "terrorism" that israel "committs" is nowhere near the slaughter of innocents that goes on when these nut palestinians blow themselves up in a mall or a synogauge. <<maybe i should repeat that later, in case you forget or dont actually READ my post>>: Is it the suicide or the bombing that you don't support? Because I can't really tell. <<these people have nothing better to live for. 75% of them live on less than 2$ per day>>: I fail to see how blowing yourself up in the middle of a city makes your life or the lives of your family/friends any better. How does "shitty life" justify killing other people? <<how can the palestinians be asked to make peace with a people who wont recognize their right to exist?>>: Israel *does* recognize their right to exist. They do not recognize that they should own the land currently called Israel. Israel does not WANT to pick fights. If they did, most of the middle east would be a smoldering sand bucket. They retaliate when provoked. <<the palestinians have been offered little to no compensation for being unceremoniously booted off the land they have lived on since 640ce>>: Sadly, that land was owned by someone else. The Brits. <<why? because the jews wrote a book that fluffed up their egoes and told them they were the "chosen ones" of GOD>>: Not quite. More likely its because none of us wanted to give up OUR land.

Gunjack: <<the fact remains that the Israeli responce is unacceptable>>: Only as unacceptable as it was for us to put the japanese in internment camps during WWII. <<While it may be true that the Palestinians wish all Israelis dead, the fact remains that things have gone much the other way in practice>>: That's because Israelis are better armed and better trained. You could try to turn this into a morality issue, but the fact remains that Israelis are provoked into their behavior. <<Explain, if you can, how preventing a critically ill person from reaching a hospital serves the security interests of the state?>>: One less suicide bomber. <<Such a universal condemnation is dangerous, foolish, and obviously false>>: I fail to see how its dangerous. <<The Palestinians had everything taken away from them, and they have been denied any chance to rebuild a semblance of a normal life>>: Bullshit. They're living in 10 different countries in the area. Maybe if they stopped training to be the next 9/11 crew and got a JOB, they could try to build that life. And if you respond to this with a complaint about their lousy economy, that's not israel's problem, and is not affected by whether or not they can own land in Israel. <<civilised countries do NOT respond to terror with terror>>: How *do* civilized countries respond to terror? Is military reaction okay? <<I'm trying to decide whether you're an idiot, or playing stupid on purpose>>: I fail to see how that sentence leads to either decision. <<No one listened, most likely because they mixed "death to the jews!" with their legitimate complaints>>: Well that's not exactly the Ghandi approach then, is it? <<What about killing his family? And his neighbors? And that guy who asked him directions two streets back?>>: That depends. Are they going to try and kill you out of revenge? <<Does that mean that it would be justifiable to, say, toss all hispanics in California in the clink for a year or so?>>: Absolutely not. We should shoot them in the kneecaps instead. <<why is it that they've only managed to kill 312 israelis in fifteen years? Doesn't that seem just a little low for millions of blood-lusting "vermin"?>>: what about all the suicide bombers? They've taken out a lot more than 312 people. <<We do not, for example, deny basic rights to minority populations>>: Many non-whites will argue this point. <<do I look like an art major to you?>>: From here, yes. <<except I skipped most of my classes>>: Not a good strategy for passing.

Mooncat: <<take a chill pill>>: Why? He wasn't flaming anyone. <<Why not post your really long tirades on a separate web page and link to it instead of flooding the comment room?>>: Um, this room has had tirades long before you showed up. <<smack in the middle of the top ten count>>: What does this have to do with anything? <<did he have to take *ten pages* to say it?>>: This from the woman who posts up to 8 times per day, with stuff that is a LOT less relevant/important/interesting to anyone.

Anonymous: You don't get top 10 spots without your name. Please die.

Aaron: <<So SJ, carry on>>: Are you sure you're really an admin?

Gside: <<Remember: Courier New>>: Sadly, the font has been defined for me. <<would jump at asexuality the first chance he gets>>: Not a very good male, then. <>: Ooh ooh! In that case... <<How would the audience of the class change the usefulness of the information?>>: Sit through a humanities class and then ask that again. <<And I'm back where I started. Good>>: Welcome to Circular Arguments 101. <>: That too. <<They are all required courses and they only have one lecture section>>: Weak. In this school, the required courses frequently rotate teachers. <<Don't want other people using my freezer>>: Why would you even WANT to use that freezer afterwards. <<Nervous about my prospects when I get out, yes>>: Fear not. Someone will pay you. <<You just won't be able to find it afterwards (great excuse for not handing in physics homework>>: LOL! <<found in large numbers in blood>>: Ooh I was right! <<That leaves me with 9>>: I'm under the impression that anon's don't count.

In all of history, there have only been a few really good scams...the Loch Ness Monster, Canada...
-Al Bundy, Married with Children

Josh "Imzadi" Wurzel - [@kicktothenuts.com]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Sunday, April 7, 2002 06:07:11 AM
IP: 64.161.24.226

SJ(who else?)><> You're a sick, sick man, SJ... But we already knew that. No comment.
<> civilised countries do NOT respond to terror with terror. You've never seemed to grasp that point (see: recomendations for responce to 9/11). Indiscriminate killing of civilians cannot be accepted by the United States of America. If you cannot grasp that fact, I suggest you relocate to a country more in line with your beliefs. Iraq, perhaps?
<<Because in the Arab world, the Palestinians are valued about as much as dirt.>> And the fact that the israelis have ALSO treated them this way since the beggining of the occupation is no real problem?
<<*looks at list of casualties* What can I say? When it comes to war, Israel kicks ass.>>>
...
...
I'm trying to decide whether you're an idiot, or playing stupid on purpose. Knowing your sparkling personality, I'll assume the latter.
7.2 Palestinians for every one Israeli killed. You think that all (or even most) were terrorists? Or do you think that merely sympathizing with the terrorists is enough to justify killing a civilian who has never fired a rifle or set a bomb?
Do you honestly think that those 2,000 were all terrorists?
<<Oooh, I hope I horrified you with that last statement.>> If you can't bring yourself to care that noncombatants are being slaughtered, then yes, I am horrified.
<<These so called "human rights" violations were responses to real human rights violations (murder) perpetrated on Israel by the Arabs.>> If I'm not mistaken, the rights violations I mentioned have been in place since the formation of Israel. The first of the suicide bombs you find so fascinating occured in 1987. In the space between, the Palestinians tried the Ghandi approach. No one listened, most likely because they mixed "death to the jews!" with their legitimate complaints.
<<
It's a basic fact that when someone sets out with the specific goal of trying to kill you, you go out and kill him.>> Defending yourself is one thing. What about killing his family? And his neighbors? And that guy who asked him directions two streets back?
<> Fascinating. Since I balk at supporting the IDF when they slaughter innocent civilians, that makes me a Jew-hater.
...
Although in retrospect, Perhaps I should have clarified. You seem to be under the impression that since I disaprove of the actions of the Israeli government, that I must automaticly think the Palestinians are hunky-dory.
The Palestinians in general, and Arafat in particular, are guilty as sin. What you seem unable to recognize is that BOTH SIDES are guilty. The Israelis treat the Palestinians like shit, and the Palestinians murder Israelis. Neither side has any moral claim left. The difference is, I've ALWAYS said that the Palestinians were scum,, and until recently, I thought the Israelis were just peachy. Killing civilians is killing civilians, and it shouldn't make a difference who the perpetrator is.
<<Here’s what we know.>> Most of this stuff is completely true. Hence why I really, REALLY don't like the Palestinians (or most other radical islamic countries, for that matter).
<<1.>> True.
<<2.>> True.
<<3.>> True.
<<4.>> FALSE. Characterising an entire ethnic group as "animals" and "vermin" is never a good sign. Neither is the suggestion that these "animals" (again, an ENTIRE ETHNIC GROUP TOTALLING SOME MILLIONS OF PEOPLE) should be wiped out.
<<5.>> So. Every palestinian is a terrorist. Let's kill them all. Well, gee... should we bother with the gas chambers, or just buy up some soviet-era nerve gas and go for a general spray? I mean, they're only vermin, right? It's not much different from dusting crops, when you put it that way...
<<6.>> It is obviously true that arab and muslim nations are the prime sources of terrorism in the modern world.
In California, I'd imagine that a cursory examination of crime statistics would show that the majority of crimes are commited by hispanics. Does that mean that it would be justifiable to, say, toss all hispanics in California in the clink for a year or so?
Hating America is not a crime. Hating Jews is not a crime. KILLING people is a crime, and anyone who attempts to is fair game. To try to hold ALL palestinians responsible for the actions of a few is monstrous.
Incidentally, if all palestinians are "animals" for whom "war is not a question of if, but when", why is it that they've only managed to kill 312 israelis in fifteen years? Doesn't that seem just a little low for millions of blood-lusting "vermin"?
<<7.>> Same statements as before, no new information. The humanity of some millions of people is denied, despite the fact that they have collectively commited 300 murders over the course of *FIFTEEN YEARS*.
<<8.>> You condemn an ENTIRE ETHNIC GROUP for the actions of a very, VERY few. One more time; 300 kills, FIFTEEN YEARS, Population of SEVERAL MILLION. And again I point out that the Israelis have killed more than SEVEN TIMES that number.

This Hillel guy is an utter idiot.

Netenyahu is vastly better, but still somewhat shakey in points.

Hawley - I think I like this guy.
<<Listen carefully: We're good, they're evil, and nothing is relative.>> True. WE are good (though certianly not perfect). We do not, for example, deny basic rights to minority populations, or ignore incidents of excessive force aon the part of police and military against those minorities. When such incidents come to our attention, we do not ignore them. Israel has repeatedly done all these things.
<<However, complete, fully-thought-through, professional, well- executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. >> True... provided that this "complete, fully-thought-through, professional, well- executed" violence targets the right people. The general assumes that this would be the case, but that git Hillel clearly demonstrates the stupidity of assuming thateveryone is wise enough to know who the proper targets are.
<<3.>> Heh. So true.
<<I'm sorry, one of the "alleged hijackers," according to CNN - they stopped using the word "terrorist," you know>> That might be because of certian discrepencies in the available information; things like the airline stewerdess who called in the seat numbers of the hijackers, none of which correspond to the seats of the alleged hijackers. Otherwise, true.
The rest of the points are nice.

Friedman's Article - No comment. Lain called this one, so I'll let her have it tomorrow.

<<Because on the one hand they have people who want to kill them, and on the other they have whiny little art major liberals bitching and moaning about every move they make.>> Some things need to be moaned, 'Mano. And do I look like an art major to you?
<<We stand alone, we don’t tolerate anyone attempting to destroy us or our way of life. Whoever tries, dies.>> And whoever doesn't try. And whoever is just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Heck, why even bothering to try telling the difference? If a car is headed toward our roadblock, and then makes a sudden U-turn and heads the other way, why not just machinegun him? Cause, y'know, people who make sudden u-turns at roadblocks are ALWAYS hardcore terrorists. No need to try to apprehend the driver, or even to check who he is; just hose the fucker and call it a day. This isn't about jumping down the Israelis throats for every little twitch. This is about jumping down their throats for the same thing we should be jumping down ANYONE'S throats for.

Aaron><<Actually, SJ just said pretty much what I wanted to say, and in a more conscise, well-reasoned mannor.>> You were wanting to argue that all palestinians and the majority of arabs are inhuman beasts who deserve nothing but swift death? Juxtaposed with your next sentence, this forms a veritable *irony sandwich*.

Gside - You suck.
Just kidding. I would have known that too, except I skipped most of my classes... :P

It's late, and I'm tired. See ya'll around.
Gunjack "Counting Rads in Central Park" Valentine
Sunday, April 7, 2002 03:31:11 AM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Imzadi> <<the construction site of the new central dining facility>>: They merged the two Busch dining halls last year to make room for the network central office.
<<It's gonna feature a mongolian grill. Of course, with Grade D meat served by the university, its sure to suck>>: The saute line here regularly puts out better food than the main lines, but it's still not haute cuisine.
<<Isn't that redundant?>>: It could be a lead pipe, like in Clue.
<<a 5 page engineering paper can be a killer>>: Remember: Courier New.
<<Cuz I believe Wilek to be asexual>>: I think he's technically male, but would jump at asexuality the first chance he gets.
<<The girls I'll be living with won't find me attractive enough to ditch their fiancees>>: I think that her point was the girls you'll be living with will have female friends who are up for grabs.
<<Or a humanities class taken by a engineer>>: How would the audience of the class change the usefulness of the information?
<<You said meet. You didn't say anything about glomping>>: I have a definition for glomping, you said it was kinky and that you liked it, I said I should remember that on a hypothetical meeting, you said it was sad we aren't likely to meet, not denying that you'd like the glomp that I'd remember that you liked and thought was kinky which I defined for you. And I'm back where I started. Good.
<<Hence my avoidance of the east coast>>: I thought that was the weather.
<<Why don't you just take a different class?>>: They are all required courses and they only have one lecture section.
<<You keep your fun sock in the freezer?>>: Well, mostly it's to mark my territory. Don't want other people using my freezer when they have their own, even if its not plugged in.
<<Wilek jacked off Gary Larson!? I thought he was asexual>>: The action doesn't require a sex.
<<Well then you can't expect much>>: Which is why I'm not bitter. Nervous about my prospects when I get out, yes. But not bitter.

DPH> <>: Sure you can tell that it's not moving. You just won't be able to find it afterwards (great excuse for not handing in physics homework). Besides, the constant is so very small.
<<Then, I travel back in time to measure its velocity with incredible accuracy since I already knew its position>>: But is it the same particle?

Gunjack> <>: "<haematology> A discoid cell (3m diameter) found in large numbers in blood, important for blood coagulation and for haemostasis by repairing breaches (small breaks) in the walls of blood vessels.

Platelet _ granules contain lysosomal enzymes, dense granules contain ADP (a potent platelet aggregating factor) and serotonin (a vasoactive amine). They also release platelet-derived growth factor which presumably contributes to later repair processes by stimulating fibroblast proliferation.

Synonym: thrombocytes."

SJ> <<Who's killing us here, the Norwegians?>>: Someone's going to ask it. Might as well be me. Warps?

Imzadi> <<No, I'm NEIN!>>: 1: Rasta M,an; 2: different anon; 3: Gunjack; 4: Lain; 5: DPH; 6: Ravyn; 7: SJ; 8: Mooncat; (Lain, Mooncat, and Gunjack are repeats) That leaves me with 9.

Mooncat> <>: Yeah, a lot of it could have been linked, but how many people would follow the links? Of course, how many people will just skip by all that copied text?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscatway, NJ
Sunday, April 7, 2002 01:09:35 AM
IP: 198.151.130.133

Aaron -- concise? *10 full pages* of why any and all people of a particular ethnic/national group have no humanity and all deserve to die smack in the middle of the top ten count, is concise?

I don't mind SJ having his say, but did he have to take *ten pages* to say it?

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Sunday, April 7, 2002 12:59:45 AM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Actually, SJ just said pretty much what I wanted to say, and in a more conscise, well-reasoned mannor.

But then, I'm only an nth percent Jewish. Juuuuuuuust Jewish enough to have been sent to the death camps. So I'm a tiny bit biased as well when it comes to Israel.

So SJ, carry on.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Sunday, April 7, 2002 12:32:55 AM
IP: 192.187.253.112

10th ;)
Anonymous
Sunday, April 7, 2002 12:16:15 AM
IP: 66.27.85.63

No, I'm NEIN!
Josh
Sunday, April 7, 2002 12:06:15 AM
IP: 64.161.24.226

9th.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscatway, NJ
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:59:05 PM
IP: 198.151.130.133

Mooncat: no please... I want him to play.

Let's tango, Junior...
V
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:58:13 PM
IP: 192.133.129.4

Sevarius, take a chill pill. If you must rant, could you do it in smaller bites? That last post was far too long. Why not post your really long tirades on a separate web page and link to it instead of flooding the comment room?

Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:56:10 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

sj <<And of course, I’m NOT wrong.>> no, of course.

***daylight savings ends tonight everyone. dont forget you get one less hour of sleep..***

love,
lain
the Great White North
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:53:39 PM
IP: 64.228.193.155

6th, or 7th

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:53:10 PM
IP: 65.30.27.68

Anonymous: <<Sharone(sp?)is doing to the palestinians exactly what the Hitler did to the jews.>>

The major difference, of course, back during WW2 the Jews never started the Holocaust by suicide bombing the Germans. The Jews didn’t bring upon themselves the “final solution”. Palestine, on the other hand, is willfully bringing about their own destruction. I say, if they want it so much, why not give it to them?

Are you really so surprised it’s come to this? This only ends when one side is dead. I find it oddly amusing that people are so against Israel for doing to the Palestinians what the Palestinians have been doing to them all along. If it’s all going to end in bloodshed anyway, I’d much rather have Israel emerge the victor.

Please post your name next time too. It’s kind of cowardly to post a somewhat inflammatory remark and then leave off your moniker.

Acheron: <<Howcome none of the surrounding Arab nations would allow Palestinians into their territory after they told them to flee Israel while they tried to destroy it back in the 50's?>>

Because in the Arab world, the Palestinians are valued about as much as dirt. The only reason the Arabs really care about the situation at all is because Arafat and his people have been waging a war / jihad upon Jews all this time. The Palestinians aren’t in anyone’s good book over there, which is one of the reasons that the Arabs haven’t jumped any major hurdles to help out the Palestinians in their conflict.

Lain: <<sj>> it must be nice to see everything so cleanly cut but.. im afraid you have some facts a little out of whack here.>>

Yes it is. It’s wonderful to be me, especially without out all of the pathetic self-loathing some of you seem to have.

And of course, I’m NOT wrong.

<<but you wont find me or the rest of the civilized world (including, if you hadnt noticed, your precious president) standing behind you.>>

Thank God for that. Honestly, last thing I ever want in this world is to have YOU in particular behind me.

<<no, i do NOT support suicide bombings.>>

Really. And yet when 9-11 happened, you said that we (the USA) had it coming. Yes, That Old Gag.

Gunjack: *looks at list of casualties* What can I say? When it comes to war, Israel kicks ass.

Oooh, I hope I horrified you with that last statement.

These so called "human rights" violations were responses to real human rights violations (murder) perpetrated on Israel by the Arabs.

It's a basic fact that when someone sets out with the specific goal of trying to kill you, you go out and kill him.

<<You say, SJ, that it's not about the land. Naturally, reducing the problem to a question of bigotry makes things much more cut and dried. Unfortunately, The facts clearly run counter to such an explanation.>>

Oh, but it was never about the land. Trust me. Or don’t. But I’m right anyway. Here comes my long-winded arguments.

First I’ll defer to the wisdom of a friend of mine, Hillel, who basically articulates my argument on the matter. It’s in his words, but I agree with them completely. I warn you, he’s Jewish, so I’m sure you’ll just discount all of his viewpoints as that of an angry Zionist.

At Jerusalem’s Al-Aksa Mosque the Muslim clergyman appointed by Arafat to the Palestinian Authority, delivered a forceful sermon instructing the faithful on the subject of Jews. (Not Israeli’s…Jews in general). “Have no mercy on the Jews. No matter where they are, in any country. Fight them where they are. Whenever you meet them, kill them.”

From the same pulpit, Sheikh Ikrema Sabri, the Arafat appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, issued a call to Holy War. “Every Palestinian is in a state of Jihad…who willingly sacrifice their offspring [and are] participating in the great reward of jihad to liberate Al-Aksa.

Mark Seager, a British photographer in Ramallah shortly after two Israeli were murdered (literally torn limb from limb) reported in the Sunday Telegraph of London that the mob howled “no pictures” and attacked him. The crowd displayed “such hatred, such unbelievable hatred. The worst thing was that “I realized the anger they were directing to me was the same as that which they’d had toward the [Israeli] soldier before dragging him from the police station and killing him….It was murder of the most barbaric kind…I know that I’ll have nightmares for the rest of my life.

In Washington, Ottawa and Paris, Palestinian demonstrates have chanted in Arabic for the slaughter of ALL Jews. In France alone there have been more than 200 attacks on Jewish targets within the last few months. A synagogue in Versailles was destroyed, four others near Paris were desecrated and a school bus of Jewish kids stopped by gunmen.

These attacks continue in England, German, North and South America, Australia and South Africa. All directed towards Jews, not Israelis, but Jews. Not since the 1930’s have Jews worldwide been subjected to this kind of threat.

Here’s what we know 1. Arab kids are trained from birth to hate Jews and to kill whenever possible 2. Consider the Arabic-language TV show called “Children’s Club.” It has puppet shows, songs, cute characters and a rip off of Mickey Mouse. It’s the Palestinian version of Sesame Street – but on this street, kids sing about becoming “suicide warriors” and directing “violence, anger, anger, anger” against Israel and ALL Jews. 3. This “education” continues their whole life. 4. With Palestinian animals like this, war is not a question of “if” but when. It will come down to a matter of “them” or “us.” Israel and America’s, indeed the whole civilized world MUST eliminate these vermin and scour the world of their presence. 5. Some people say that there are “innocent civilians.” Bullshit! Every one of these “innocents” is out to kill Israeli’s, Jews and Americans: anyone not like them. 6. Don’t for a minute think that non-Jews are safe. The Arab hatred is not limited to Jews. They are merely the first and most opportune targets. Whenever the opportunity arises they will kill anyone not like them – in other words, any civilized decent human beings. Perhaps you remember the WTC on 9/11/01? Perhaps you remember the Cole? Perhaps you remember the embassy bombings? 7. These savages know only hate and through their actions have lost whatever semblance of humanity they may once have possessed. 8. I do not condemn them for their race or ethnicity, but for their actions. Because of them they are utterly without redemption. 9. Americans of Arabic ethnicities have to make a choice: They are either with us, or against us. In the latter case, they must be treated like the rest of the Arab terrorist population. 10. Why do I care so much about this issue? Aside from the fact that it is a matter of survival for Israel and for Jews and indeed for non-Arabs, I’ve had family killed by these dogs. One of them survived the camps only to die at the modern day version of the Gestapo’s terror tactics.
Now, a letter from Benjamin Netanyahu:

Binyamin Netanyahu, former Prime Minister of Israel.

(March 29, 2002) - Since Yom Kippur in 1973, Israel has not experienced a violent Arab attack so laced with savage contempt for our people and our heritage as we experienced on Passover Eve this year.

The message Palestinian terrorists are sending us is crystal clear: We will murder you at every opportunity, in every place, at any time - even on the holiest of your days.

An unremitting carnage that indiscriminately slaughters all who come within the murderous reach of Palestinian terrorists shows the depths of their hatred. Clearly, the only constraint for Arab terrorists is their destructive capability. Given the power, they would destroy all of us, down to the last infant.

The primary objective of Arafat's terrorist regime is not to establish the twenty-second Arab state, but to destroy the only Jewish state. This was and remains the heart of the conflict.

In 1948, the Arabs rejected an international resolution that would have established an Arab state, and instead attempted to destroy an embryonic Jewish state. Fifty-two years later, Arafat rejected a similar offer and demanded the flooding of Israel with millions of Palestinians, a measure that would effectively bring about the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.

With such a regime, whose ultimate objective is our destruction and which pursues this objective by the most barbaric means imaginable, there is no place for negotiations and no hope for reaching any sustainable peace agreement. Indeed, the much-vaunted political solution to end the conflict was in fact attempted two years ago at Camp David, and it utterly failed. Arafat rejected a scandalously far-reaching Israeli offer of a sovereign Palestinian state in Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip, which included half of Jerusalem, and instead chose to unleash the present war of terror against Israel.

There is only one option that is now available to Israel: to decisively win the war that has been forced upon us. What is required of us today is not a willingness to clench our teeth and bear this ongoing violence. We must instead seek a total military victory against an implacable enemy that is waging a terrorist war against us.

First, we must immediately dismantle the Palestinian Authority and expel Arafat. Second we must encircle the main Palestinian population centers, purge them of terrorists, and eradicate the terrorist infrastructure. Third, we must establish security separation lines that will allow Israeli armed forces to enter Palestinian territory, but prevent Palestinian terrorists from entering our towns and cities.

The choice we face today is not between military victory and a security separation. Rather, we must do both together. Only by combining the two can we stop the terror, restore a deterrence that has been dangerously eroded in the last two years, and enable a realistic and moderate leadership to emerge among the Palestinians with which we can
pursue a political settlement in the future.

Like a partial dose of antibiotics that is not sufficient to cure the disease, the partial actions of the government and the fitful changes between a policy of restraint and half-hearted military action has not and will not achieve anything. Our excessive concern about the international community has also borne bitter fruit. Israel's refusal so far to act as would any other self-respecting nation heightens the doubts in the minds of our friends of our belief in the justice of our cause and encourages our enemies to increase the bloodshed.

The only way to win international understanding for our position, especially in America, is to steadfastly assert our basic right to defend ourselves and achieve a quick and decisive military victory that will stop the terrible massacre of our citizens.

Finally, the claim that we have tried all military means to end the terror is baseless. We have not even used a fraction of our military power, and the little we have used has not been directed at the right target, namely ending Arafat's regime. Today, after 18 months of terrorism, the government continues to work under the illusion that it is possible to stop terrorism without dismantling this main terrorist engine.

What is absolutely clear is that we cannot continue, even for one more day, on a path of indecision, without a goal or a policy. We must do what any nation in our position would do: stop bickering among ourselves, fight the war that has been forced upon us, and vanquish an enemy who is determined to annihilate us.

Now, one from retired Gen. Richard E. Hawley:

Views of Gen. (USAF-Ret) Richard E. Hawley - 3/25/02

Since the attack, I have seen, heard, and read thoughts of such surpassing stupidity that they must be addressed. You've heard them too. Here they are:

1) "We're not good, they're not evil, everything is relative."
Listen carefully: We're good, they're evil, and nothing is relative. Say it with me now and free yourselves. You see, folks, saying "We're good" doesn't mean, "We're perfect” okay? The only perfect being is the bearded guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The plain fact is that our country has, with all our mistakes and blunders, always been and always will be, the greatest beacon of freedom, charity, opportunity, and affection in history. If you need proof, open all the borders on Earth and see what happens. In about half a day, the entire world would be a ghost town, and the United States would look like one giant line to see "The Producers."

2) "Violence only leads to more violence."
This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy League university to say it. Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already: Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence: However, complete, fully-thought-through, professional, well- executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "reeducated," not "nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead. D-E-Well, you get the idea.

3) "The CIA and the rest of our intelligence community has failed us."
For 25 years we have chained our spies like dogs to a stake in the ground, and now that the house has been robbed, we yell at them for not protecting us. Starting in the late seventies, under Carter-appointee Stansfield Turner, the giant brains who get these giant ideas decided that the best way to gather international intelligence was to use spy satellites." After all," they reasoned, "you can see a license plate from 200 miles away." This is very helpful if you've been attacked by a license plate. Unfortunately, we were attacked by humans. Finding humans is not possible with satellites. You have to use other humans. When we bought all our satellites, we fired all our humans, and here's the really stupid part. It takes years, decades to infiltrate new humans into the worst places of the world. You can't just have a guy who looks like Gary Busey in a Spring Break '93 sweatshirt plop himself down in a coffee shop in Kabul and say "Hiya, boys. Gee, I sure would like to meet that bin Laden fella." "Well, you can, but all you'd be doing is giving the bad guys a story they'll be telling for years.

4) "These people are poor and helpless, and that's why they're angry at us."
Uh-huh, and Jeffrey Dahmer's frozen head collection was just a desperate cry for help. The terrorists and their backers are richer than Elton John and, ironically, a good deal less annoying. The poor helpless people, you see, are the villagers they tortured and murdered to stay in power. Mohamed Atta, one of the evil scumbags who steered those planes into the killing grounds (I'm sorry, one of the "alleged hijackers," according to CNN - they stopped using the word "terrorist," you know), is the son of a Cairo surgeon. But you knew this, too. In the sixties and seventies, all the pinheads marching against the war were upper-middle-class college kids who grabbed any cause they could think of to get out of their final papers and spend more time drinking. At least, that was my excuse. It's the same today. Take the Anti-Global-Warming (or is it World Trade? Oh, who knows what the hell they want, demonstrators) They all charged their black outfits and plane tickets on dad's credit card before driving to the airport in their SUV's.

5) "Any profiling is racial profiling."
Who's killing us here, the Norwegians? Just days after the attack, the New York Times had an article saying dozens of extended members of the gazillionaire bin Laden family living in America were afraid of reprisals and left in a huff, never to return to studying at Harvard and using too much Drakkar. I'm crushed. I think we're all crushed. Please come back. With a cherry on top? Why don't they just change their names, anyway? It's happened in the past. Think about it. How many Adolfs do you run into these days? Shortly after that, I remember watching TV with my jaw on the floor as a government official actually said, "That little old grandmother from Sioux City could be carrying something." Okay, how about this: No, she couldn't. It would never be the grandmother from Sioux City. Is it even possible? What are the odds? Winning a hundred Powerball lotteries in a row? A thousand? A million? And now a Secret Service guy has been tossed off a plane and we're all supposed to cry about it because he's an Arab? Didn't it have the tiniest bit to do with the fact that he filled out his forms incorrectly ---three times? And then left an Arab history book on his seat as he strolled off the plane? And came back? Armed? Let's please all stop singing "We Are the World" for a minute and think practically. I don't want to be sitting on the floor in the back of a plane four seconds away from hitting Mt. Rushmore and turn, grinning, to the guy next to me to say, "Well, at least we didn't offend them."

SO HERE'S what I resolve for the New Year:

1. Never to forget our murdered brothers and sisters
2. Never to let the relativists get away with their immoral thinking. After all, no matter what your daughter's political science professor says, we didn't start this.
3. Have you seen that bumper sticker that says, "No More Hiroshima’s"? I wish I had one that says, "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."

Now, a nice little New York Times article which pokes holes in your nice little argument, lain, about how the Palestinians are suicide bombers because they supposedly have nothing to live for. It’s NOT desperation, baby.

The New York Times

March 31, 2002
Suicidal Lies

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

The outcome of the war now under way between the Israelis and Palestinians is vital to the security of every American, and indeed, I believe, to all of civilization. Why? Quite simply because Palestinians are testing out a whole new form of warfare, using suicide bombers — strapped with dynamite and dressed as Israelis — to achieve their political aims. And it is working.

Israelis are terrified. And Palestinians, although this strategy has wrecked their society, feel a rising sense of empowerment. They feel they finally have a weapon that creates a balance of power with Israel, and maybe, in their fantasies, can defeat Israel. As Ismail Haniya, a Hamas leader, said in The Washington Post, Palestinians have Israelis on the run now because they have found their weak spot. Jews, he said, "love life more than any other people, and they prefer not to die." So Palestinian suicide bombers are ideal for dealing with them. That is really sick.

The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of "desperation" stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their "desperate" occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance, à la Gandhi. A nonviolent Palestinian movement appealing to the conscience of the Israeli silent majority would have delivered a Palestinian state 30 years ago, but they have rejected that strategy, too.

The reason the Palestinians have not adopted these alternatives is because they actually want to win their independence in blood and fire. All they can agree on as a community is what they want to destroy, not what they want to build. Have you ever heard Mr. Arafat talk about what sort of education system or economy he would prefer, what sort of constitution he wants? No, because Mr. Arafat is not interested in the content of a Palestinian state, only the contours.

Let's be very clear: Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation. This threatens all civilization because if suicide bombing is allowed to work in Israel, then, like hijacking and airplane bombing, it will be copied and will eventually lead to a bomber strapped with a nuclear device threatening entire nations. That is why the whole world must see this Palestinian suicide strategy defeated.

But how? This kind of terrorism can be curbed only by self-restraint and repudiation by the community itself. No foreign army can stop small groups ready to kill themselves. How do we produce that deterrence among Palestinians? First, Israel needs to deliver a military blow that clearly shows terror will not pay. Second, America needs to make clear that suicide bombing is not Israel's problem alone. To that end, the U.S. should declare that while it respects the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism, it will have no dealings with the Palestinian leadership as long as it tolerates suicide bombings. Further, we should make clear that Arab leaders whose media call suicide bombers "martyrs" aren't welcome in the U.S.

Third, Israel must tell the Palestinian people that it is ready to resume talks where they left off with Mr. Clinton, before this intifada. Those talks were 90 percent of the way toward ending the occupation and creating a Palestinian state. Fourth, U.S. or NATO troops must guarantee any Israeli-Palestinian border.

"The Spanish Civil War was the place where the major powers all tested out their new weapons before World War II," said the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi. "Well, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today is the Spanish Civil War for the 21st century. A big test is taking place of whether suicide terrorism can succeed as a strategy for liberation. It must be defeated, but that requires more than a military strategy."

The Palestinians are so blinded by their narcissistic rage that they have lost sight of the basic truth civilization is built on: the sacredness of every human life, starting with your own. If America, the only reality check left, doesn't use every ounce of energy to halt this madness and call it by its real name, then it will spread. The Devil is dancing in the Middle East, and he's dancing our way.
So, the question is, why is Israel so hard-ass?

Because on the one hand they have people who want to kill them, and on the other they have whiny little art major liberals bitching and moaning about every move they make.

A long time ago, they did the practical thing and just said FUCK IT – We stand alone, we don’t tolerate anyone attempting to destroy us or our way of life. Whoever tries, dies.

I’m not going to cry any goddamn tears over Palestine for losing a war they started and / or continually perpetuated.

The UN will bitch at them, we’ll bitch at them, blah blah blah. Israel is smart enough to realize that no matter what action it takes it will be condemned by the UN so why worry over another meaningless gathering of anti semetic nations. They could withdraw from all land, pass sweeping measures to help the Palestinians, go a complete 180 and become the country everyone wants them to be…and there will still be suicide bombings, and people bitching at them STILL.

Either way, Israel loses. But if they do things their way, at least they don’t have to worry about some worthless bastard strapping dynamite to his / her chest and taking out a chunk of real estate and a few dozen Israeli lives.

Sevarius "Gigglemesh" Jr. - [sevariusjr@hotmail.com]
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:37:01 PM
IP: 207.172.11.147

Sixth? **sigh**
Ravyn
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:22:11 PM
IP: 150.135.180.226

As much I despise the idea of being required to have a unique id in order to post, this anonymous business is starting to drive me nuts.

I could kill Yahoo right now. Why? It has been requiring me to login as soon as I try to make a post. Apparantly, Yahoo has no qualms about someone else viewing your messages, but does have qualms about someone trying to send email with your account. Which is more important?

::Gets ready to shoot DC for causing him problems getting a simple message typed out twice:: I had it typed the first time and Yahoo required to login as soon as I hit the submit button. The 2nd time I typed it, I selected the entire text and hit "paste" instead of "Copy" so now it's time to take my revenge:

5th? top 10
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:07:43 PM
IP: 204.94.193.29

third!?
lain!
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:03:57 PM
IP: 64.228.193.155

Second?
Gunjack "Wiggu!" Valentine
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:02:02 PM
IP: 192.133.129.4

...
Anonymous
Saturday, April 6, 2002 11:00:21 PM
IP: 63.155.240.174

FIRST
rasta m,an
Saturday, April 6, 2002 10:54:09 PM
IP: 24.219.166.111