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Imzadi - <No matter how many shorts we have in the system, my guards will be instructed to treat every surveillance camera malfunction as a full-scale emergency.> I'm assuming you have a redundant array of security cameras in place so e ven the smallest malfunction doesn't lead to a full-scale breach of security. BTW, how many full-scale emergencies can your guards handle at a time? Or does full-scale emergency mean immediate lockdown of all areas? <The bible seems to indicate that god would be very happy eliminating free will.> I would consider it close to the situation where the guy in charge of security always wants more security guards. He knows if he has too many security guards, essentially he has taken away the people's liberty. <66. My security keypad will actually be a fingerprint scanner. Anyone who watches someone press a sequence of buttons or
dusts the pad for fingerprints then subsequently tries to enter by repeating that sequence will trigger the alarm system. > Gotta love that. <65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment.> I thought your main control room would on a hidden unmarked floor in a hidden unmarked room or is that the location of your backup Execution Chamber?

Patrick - < Then you learn what pain really is, and why "measure twice, cut once" sounds great in theory but never seems to work out just right in practice.> I always thought it was cut twice, measure once. :)

Kaito - <The problem with omnipotence is that it only deals with Some-things, rather than No-things. God can be incapable of paradox or sin by definition, and still be omnipotent. People tend to harp on the omnipotence issue without nothing greater than a child's understanding about what it means. > It's like the age old question: can God create a rock too heavy for him to pick up. What's your answer to that?

Green Baron - I hoped you remember a certain conversation we had a long time ago. <Actually, my Uncle who is also my godfather believes that Jesus had siblings, so even some Catholics buy that.> Alright. <Still, after believing John 3:16, the
whole notion of a married couple not having sex is easier to believe by comparison, yet only we Dark Age reactionaries believe that> That leads questions to about Guardian Tom and Princess Katherine's relationship. By all practical terms, they're a married couple. <Now, I still have the theory that a lot of stuff was not in the Bible like Cain's wife and Seth's wife. Obviously, I do not belive that Cain and Abel married their sisters, as the Garden of Eden was in Mesopatamia, not Mississippi> I believe God designed the original genetic code to handle in-breeding for a few generations because of necessity.

Silverbolt - There's the counter argument: Santa would probably be a Catholic and thus have many children, with his population base being large enough to handle the world. Of course, that assumes Santa's a psychic [with the gene for being psychic being a dominant trate] to that he can exactly how many toys to make each year and realize the need to pro-create.

Robby - < (I could find a way, I'm sure)> It would be easier to create a corrupted mistletoe from stratch than corrupt Holographic mistletoe v2.0.

Spacebabie - <would take a wollup of a spell, but smooth move. No loves spells are going to effect us> Hehehe. Next year's version, holographic mistletoe v3.0 will be even a whole magnitude harder to corrupt. I'm working out the specs right now.

Kaioto - <Do contractors EVER read the specs given to them? I mean, honestly?> * DPH's hologram hands Kaioto a scroll containing a list of contractors who failed to follow exact specs while working on holographic mistletoe v2.0 and concidently disappeared under mysterious circumstances * Does that answer your question? Only holographic DPH knows what happenned, but he purged his memory was purged after each incident to prevent incriminating evidence from being found. <God (being infinitely more powerful that Superman) could in fact pull a Superman routine without having a physical body present in all places at once.> ok. <Of course, there would possibly still be skeptics> Yea, they would be busy trying to duplicate the results.

DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, December 8, 2002 10:48:22 AM
IP: 204.94.193.65

Na zdorov'ya.> Hey. Don't get personal. I mabbey it's no diff to you but for me... I call it diff words. Likethe English dialect. And, a few words diff do make it a diff dialect. But that's MY opinion. So...
Ravenes
Sunday, December 8, 2002 10:33:24 AM
IP: 24.86.117.45

*Warpmind lurches in, looking... well... he's looked better, to say the least.*
Morning, folks.

Spacebabie: Yer dad shaved his noggin? Well, so do I, when I feel like it; no Skinner jokes here. (Picard, on the other hand...) Of course, now I'm letting my hair grow; working on the biseinen look. };) Might hafta rid myself of the goatee for that, eventually, though... :P

And with this notification of my being alive, I think I'll put on my flame-retardant jumpsuit and wait for an Inquisitor to call an end to this whole theological debate...

*Wanders off, for now.*
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmindATtiscaliDOTno]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Sunday, December 8, 2002 07:47:02 AM
IP: 213.142.70.205

<<And now I lurk away, back to my main preoccupation for the next three weeks... trying to keep the cats from climbing the Christmas tree. :P >>

Yep, we had a cat who liked doing that too (and demolished a few ornaments in the process). My current cat doesn't, but that's because I don't have a tree (and he's been declawed in front, anyway, which would make such a feat harder to carry out).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, December 8, 2002 07:13:39 AM
IP: 65.56.170.80

Green Baron: <<Prok: The Other White Meat and anti-Terrorism weapon>>: I couldn't figure out what "prok" was until I read the article and realized it was a typo. Very funny link. <<Maybe early for Christmas>>: Only 2.5 weeks 8-) <<Another Day, Another Dollar>>: Just one? Damn, you work for cheap. <<You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar>>: Which explains my success getting mac converts ;-) <<with some of that mistletoe on his belt>>: That wasn't funny. <<If a tree falls on Helen Keller and no one is around, does it make a sound>>: Yes. <>: LOL! <<He was in pain and was suffering from CRS syndrome>>: I knew there was a problem with hanging out here... <>: That's not funny. <>: It does, but we use it in a very derogatory way. <<I'm surprised you bothered with a Bar Mitzvah>>: its how things are done. At 13, boys who are raised in a jewish family become bar mitzvah. It doesn't matter if you believe or not. Plus, you get a big party and lots of money. Sounds like a good deal to me. I enjoyed it because I kept thinking about how every 13 year old kid in the history of Judaism (which is much older than Christ) has been bar mitzvah.

Ravenes: <<Are you talking about th verse in the Bible that says something like, Whoever doesn't love and follow God is like a branch that produsses no fruit and is cut away and thrown into the fire?>>: No, she's talking about the part where god killed all the jews he freed from Egypt for worshipping the golden calf. Keep in mind that was BEFORE he'd passed down the ten commandments. <<people will bring the NIV Bible out and say what you just said about the King James verson?>>: yes, that is EXACTLY what they'll say.

Gabriel: <<Ever hear of Satanists?>>: Yes, but according to you and Ravenes, there is no way that anyone could fully understand the love of god and reject it. Clearly Satanists aren't in their right mind.

Silverbolt: <<centrifugal(pressure) forces>>: FYI, there's no such thing as centrifugal forces. It's called the first law of motion, and its the same as any other force. It's just force.

Kaioto: <<you're a comp-sci sort of guy>>: I take offense to that. <<Can an omnipotent being divide an integer by infinity and get 1?>>: Not in our logic system. But god might have his own. The problem is that he "works" in our physical universe. If he doesn't save Godiva's son, then either he "didn't" or he "can't". Which means he's either omnipotent or not. <<eliminate free will>>: The bible seems to indicate that god would be very happy eliminating free will.

Greg: <<No self respecting Lord of Evil would allow himself to be treated this way>>: Even if he were gay? Some people like being dominated...

Kathy: <<In the state of Tennessee you must request that when they turn on your telephone that you can both make and receive telephone calls>>: Proving once and for all that tennessee is lame 8-)

Taleweaver: <<my sympathies to those who still must endure them>>: Thank you. <>: I hate you.

Gside: <<I'd think the modern English versions would have gone back to at least the latin>>: So 5? <<You have taken an intoduction to quantum physics at least, haven't you?>>: Of course. <>: Probably. <<Language is constantly changing>>: I promise you that Ravenes didn't understand that paragraph.

67. No matter how many shorts we have in the system, my guards will be instructed to treat every surveillance camera malfunction as a full-scale emergency.

Josh - [ATkicktothenutsDOTcom]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Sunday, December 8, 2002 03:01:48 AM
IP: 64.160.47.251

Everyone getting ready for Christmas? My family is going to meet with me in WA. First Christmas in three years, YES.

Christine<Where'd you go?> I went to Seattle again. It just isn't the same as it is in the Spring and Summer. Too dull right now.

Fire Storm- Congrats on the engagement.

Spacebabie<neener neener neener> I haven't heard that phrase for a long time. ;)

Green Baron- 120.00 is about how much for a suit in Korea. I got two of them while I was there. Now all I have to do is find a nice formal party to wear them at.

Well gotta go.
Later.

Jaden - [jaden1444@aol.com]
\Sunday, December 8, 2002 02:53:19 AM
IP: 172.194.234.210

Imzadi> <<That's 4 translations>>: I'd think the modern English versions would have gone back to at least the latin.
<<But wait a few years, she's gonna be in all the porn>>: And I shall wait well.
<<that makes no physical sense to me>>: You have taken an intoduction to quantum physics at least, haven't you?
<<See Dogma>>: I believe we're going in circles here.

Ravenes> <<That was there modern English back then?>>: Language is constantly changing. Unless no one speaks it anymore, but that doesn't matter. No one would create a specifically pseudoarchaic variant on a language for something they wanted understandable to the masses. Most of Shakespeare was meant to entertain the scum of England, and look at difficult it is to parse now.

Silverbolt> <<Now THAT is a disgusting thought>>: Thank you.
<<shuffles off quietly>>: As well you should.

Green Baron> <<the first two episodes of Ranma and I realized Happosai>>: Those weren't the first two episodes.

Ravenes> <<The USA dealact compered to canadaians: Roof>>: That's an accent, not a dialect.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Sunday, December 8, 2002 12:13:15 AM
IP: 165.230.240.116

Hola,

Welcome to the newbies. Hello to the oldies.

Starsinger> Glad to hear from you girl. I don't think the email virus came from here. I got a new computer last year and have been unabe to transfer files from the old one to the new one, including the email addresses.

Finals> my sympathies to those who still must endure them. I got lucky this quarter and all my finals were on Monday.

God Debate> I usually jump right in on these debates. As a near professinal devil's advocate, it's always a joy, but this time around it seems a trifle tired. I've noticed that life is hard, living is HARD. And saying God is the answer without even attempting to understand how hard life truly is both disingenuious and willfully ignorant. On the other side of the debate, not just inspite of what we know, but because of how much we know there is more than enough room for God.

The Big Crunch> Actually, have you considered that time would flow in reverse in a big crunch model. I believe its because time's arrow is an aspect of an expanding universe in the same way gravity is asmpect of mass. Just a thought. I'm far too lazy to do the math and quantum mechanics.

Taleweaver - [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
Saturday, December 7, 2002 11:34:40 PM
IP: 24.205.124.22

Religion debate > Ditto.

kathy > Removing carpet on stairs only seems hard until you get to installing the new. Then you learn what pain really is, and why "measure twice, cut once" sounds great in theory but never seems to work out just right in practice. Hanging wallpaper in a stairwell is also a real PITA, too... just a word of forewarning in case that's also in your plans. Otherwise... happy to hear you're making progress on the new house. :)

And now I lurk away, back to my main preoccupation for the next three weeks... trying to keep the cats from climbing the Christmas tree. :P
Patrick Toman
Saturday, December 7, 2002 09:42:49 PM
IP: 67.38.253.58

Religous debate - Neat. Not. Ignoring.
I've learned two things this week that I pass on for your edification: 1: stair carpet is a bear to pull up. 2: In the state of Tennessee you must request that when they turn on your telephone that you can both make and receive telephone calls.

Later all,
kathy
Saturday, December 7, 2002 06:58:28 PM
IP: 66.82.9.15

Mooncat: I didn't know. I was just trying to understand what he was saying. <When I bought up the ethically questionable things characters were doing in the bible I wasn't speaking of just the human characters.> What? I don't think I read that. I didn't read any posts that talked about God cuz there were to meny to respond too. But this level is ok.
Ravenes
Saturday, December 7, 2002 04:27:47 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

Ravenes -- I think Lain was referring to when God sent the Angel of death to slay the first born of every Egyptian because the Pharoah wouldn't release the Hebrew slaves. When I bought up the ethically questionable things characters were doing in the bible I wasn't speaking of just the human characters.

Hebrew - No I don't speak it, but the Bible I have is neat in that it has the Hebrew and English in an interlinear fashion, nice grammatical literal translations of each word on a word by word basis, then in a wide side margin the regular English text version - It's part of the Zondervan Hebrew Reference Series. It's a New International Version, not King James -- The King James has some nice wording, but is also known for having lots of editorial cuts and revisionist slanting to please it's royal sponsor.

MC
MC
Saturday, December 7, 2002 03:35:43 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

*Sigh* Once again. Satan is not the Supreme Overlord of all evil. If anyone would get that title it is Saddam Hussein. Satan was merely Saddam's bitch.

Did "South Park" teach you nothing?

Satan ::whining:: Why do you always make love to me from behind. Are you pretending I'm someone else?
Saddam Hussein: Satan, your ass is gigantic and red. Who am I going to pretend you are? Liza Manelli?

Notice Satan's whining, and that he's the one being done from behind. Definetly a submissive here. No self respecting Lord of Evil would allow himself to be treated this way.

I rest my case ;)
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, December 7, 2002 03:27:16 PM
IP: 216.179.5.9

Tired. Stayed up extra late to try and finish typing a fic story only to come to the conclusion that I should have made it a two parter. So I broke it in half.
That was my *PLUG* above. available at my place or the GFW. Had some art too, cool stuff like that. Now I have to go work on my essay paper if I want to get out of here by Tuesday.

Spacebabie-*smooch* mmmm olive oil and virgins... er yeah, don't mind me, I'm sleep deprived.

Silverbolt- reminds me of the Weird Al song "The Night Santa Went Crazy" extremely funny if you have a twisted sense of humor. oh and btw the speed of light is 186 thousand miles per second not per hour, just FYI

"I invented pants."
-The donkey making fun of Al Gore in a Snickers commercial-
Revel - [<<---------New Stuff]
denton, tx
Saturday, December 7, 2002 02:25:03 PM
IP: 172.153.29.250

Green Baron> <Now, I use the New American Bible, but question. Why is modern English better? King James Bible is in Middle English, bordering on Modern English.> Ok whatever English... Modern English is easer to understand cuz that is our dialect now. like, The USA dealact compered to canadaians: Roof. And USA pronounces it like roof, like a dog. Well if someone had never heard that word before, only in the Canadaian dialect he wouldn't know what it means. Some with King James and modern English. <From when I have read the King James Bible, I find it to contain a beauty in its prose and poetry unmatched by the NIV or even my New American Bible.> Ok. But I was talking about the differant dialects. Understanding is the key.
Ravenes
Saturday, December 7, 2002 02:23:16 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

ok i'm just gonna put it like this.
NEVER as god presented himself *only* as a loving, all caring being. so why the hell do you act surprised when he's a vicious murdering savage?! god has his flaws i.e. his insane jealousy. but you judge him as if *you* are the perfect one.

and until the day sumone tells me that god himself materialized before them and killed their mom, son, dad whatever... i'll say boo-fucking-hoo!!! you're soo quick to dismiss his existence but at the same tyme quick to blame him?!?

and until the day sumone tells me that god himself materialized before them and saved their child from drowning in a pool or stopped a bullet or whatever i'll say get off the goddamned acid!!! (excuse the pun).

<<Um, Genesis: six days. On *this* planet, a day is 24 hours>>
oh i see what ur sayin. but i still stand by my statement that the bible never tells the age of the earth. i would love to explain, but i dont have the tyme right now.

<if you read my article you can learn a neat way to kill them and deny them their 72 virgins (who will all look like Janet Reno...>>
EXCELLENT!
JackaL
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:58:30 PM
IP: 64.12.96.138

Bah, sorry about that. Weekend. Brain no workie.
Kaioto - [(not josh, really)]
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:43:06 PM
IP: 66.30.158.19

Josh > Re: Can't vs. Omnipotence

Well, first of all, God could still be God with limits. Some religions believe Jesus was God, but Jesus lived with day-to-day limitations in order to get something done. Secondly, if God is all-powerful in the context of existance, but not omnipotent, does it really make a difference in terms that most humans could understand well enough to put into clear words?

The problem with omnipotence is that it only deals with Some-things, rather than No-things. God can be incapable of paradox or sin by definition, and still be omnipotent. People tend to harp on the omnipotence issue without nothing greater than a child's understanding about what it means.

For instance, creating a circle-square. Mutually exclusive by arbitrary definition of what is a circle and what is a square. Being unable to create a No-thing does not exclude Omnipotence.

Josh, you're a comp-sci sort of guy. Can an omnipotent being divide an integer by infinity and get 1?

In the same respect, being unable to prevent all the suffering in the world, due to the fact that it would eliminate free will, thusly creating a net effect of harm in the world, is not exclusive of being omnipotent and all-loving.

Basically, just because you can't be wrong, doesn't mean you're not all-powerful. Ultimate Power is rather a hard concept to grasp, IMO.
Josh - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:41:25 PM
IP: 66.30.158.19

Another Day, Another Dollar.

Greg X> Mazikeen? I know I've heard that name before. Where's an anthropologist when I need one :)

Well, I tend to find your comments amusing especially when you go off the cuff. To quote SJ, "why is it that the only one who gets me is the guy in the bowtie?"

Henry VIII would be right for you as you emulate the evil dudes. I bet Caligula is up there too :)

Jackal> Well, if you read my article you can learn a neat way to kill them and deny them their 72 virgins (who will all look like Janet Reno as that is what they deserve). It involves pork, which I mis-spelled, before anyone comments about it.

Raveness> I can admire your gung-ho spirit and zeal, but this prgamatic old Machiavellian has some advice. Appearing too gung-ho can turn people off and counter what you want them to do. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

I know your intention is good, but it's all in the delivery.

Ed> Don't forget I am a descendant of William the Conqueror, yet alas I can never be King as I am a Roman Catholic, and there are probably 2 million descendants of William the Conqueror with a closer line than me :)

Well, I hope you win the lottery :)

DPH> <<Because they all misinterpreted the bible.>> I knew you'd have that answer...I didn't understand Gabriel's comment. I doubt that would change anyone's view, but it is something to think about. I was intrigued by that veiw. Actually, my Uncle who is also my godfather believes that Jesus had siblings, so even some Catholics buy that. Still, after believing John 3:16, the whole notion of a married couple not having sex is easier to believe by comparison, yet only we Dark Age reactionaries believe that :)

<<You did read my specs on why it is theoritically impossible to corrupt Holographic Mistletoe v2.0 and specific directions on how it can NOT be done, right?>>
I think I saw Bill Clinton walk into the CR with some of that mistletoe on his belt :)

Christine> I'm glad. I like having you around and not missing due to mysterious circumstances :)

Tony Elliot> I've been meaning to order that on Barnes and Noble. CS Lewis is brilliant. I have a book called Literary Converts that has Lewis, Chesterton, Tolkein and others that make up the best Christian authors in 20th century English literature.

Spacebabie> <<6. �I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; I will not refuse something I can do.� ~ Helen Keller>> If a tree falls on Helen Keller and no one is around, does it make a sound :)

<> must...not..make..blonde..joke. Nah, one came into my mind, but it involves a dildo shop so not appropriate here.

<<Eeep sorry, but that was all that was taught in my high school World History class.>> That was a pretty crappy instructor. I guess I shoudln't be surprised with teh quality of American education these days, but such stuff is too easy to get called on, so it always surprises me when they do it.

<<No honey>> I'll bring some with me to the Gathering, roomie....oh never mind that remark ::whistles innocently:: I've had that kind of pecan pie, too. I guess honey filling is more a delicacy east of the Sabine River.

I saw the first two episodes of Ranma and I realized Happosai is marginally worse than Attila.

Virgin olive oil is about how much the olives are pressed, I think.

Lain> <<geeee.. how did i see THAT coming...?>> So you are that quick to belive the tomb is authentic? If somehow I do come to believe that it is Jesus' brother, I will form then on see Jesus as just another joe and have my whole religious universe shattered. I'd rather not have that happen.

<<well.. you have to admit, he IS getting better.. :P>> Well, he never admitted his thoughts, but he's Church of Christ so I should have expected it. He probably learned it on a power point sermon or he's now taking Jack Chick's propaganda to heart :)

Though as punishment I deny you two access to the shack in St. John's until January :p So no more Newfie sex for the rest of the year...instead you'll have to have Texan sex which involves semi-automatic weapons :)

<<wow, you were buying me presents??? *guilty*>> I saw a little violin and I thought of you.

<<ah, maybe thats why i like it more. also, mark was written first, was it not?>> Correct. St. Matthew's Gospel was written in Aramaic so it was put in first. Of course Matther, Mark, and Luke are very similar and their Gospels get different years in the liturgical clanedar, yet Gospels with St. John stay the same, because of their uniqueness.

<<then theres the question of cains wifes heritage... and her village.. which might have 64 specimins AND females..>> This is why I don't take the Bible literally, especially anything prior to Abraham. Now, I still have the theory that a lot of stuff was not in the Bible like Cain's wife and Seth's wife. Obviously, I do not belive that Cain and Abel married their sisters, as the Garden of Eden was in Mesopatamia, not Mississippi :)

Leo> Happy Birthday. have some viagra :)

Deaths in the family> My mother lost her parents in the last ten years, and it has affected her depression. The only issue with that is....my grnadfather was 90 and it has taken such a toll on her....that's ridiculous. Yes, my grandfather was a role model and hero, a saintly man, but he was 90 and he dies of liver cancer two months before he turns 91!! I don't expect my mother to live to see 90 and I hope she doesn't unless she accumulates great wealth to leave me as she gets older :)

My grandfather's death was a relief. He was in pain and was suffering from CRS syndrome. My mother even got to be with him as he died, with his last words being "lift me up" Yes, she can no longer talk to him and her two brothers are rather closed people and her son is a rotten bastard who has given her a lifetime of misery, yet she still is worried about me bing in Kosovo. My mother is 57 and she was fortunate enough to be with her father until he was 90. She has let her depression get the better of her and quit going to Mass. She also gets extremely defensive if I ask her about when she has gone to Mass, and she who made me go ever since I was seven until I went to College (and went on my own) has quit. Her mother died at 83...and it was due to her cardiologist brother doing everythings hort of operating that my grandmother made it that long. In fact, she shoudln't have lived to see 65, but it helps when your son has connection and oversees the procedure. I don't get my mother's depression over this.

I understand why Lain has had such a rough time, as her mother was younger than my own is and Lain handled it pretty well. As much as I loved my grandfather I was relieved that he died. 90 is too long to live anyway (I hope my son will cut my throat before I turn 80, if I have a son), and after his suffering...death is a relief, especially with the life my grandfather lived...I believe his physical pain was a Purgatory substitue, probably taking a nice edge off his Purgatory time.

Now, my mother realizes that her older brother (the cardiologist) is dying...and like any doctor he is a lousy patient. He does not take care of himself and probably outspends Imzadi's dad. He is my godfather and my memories of him will be treasured, but the fact that he will die does not bother me. I have been expecting it. Now, I wonder if my mother will outlive my Uncle Joe. Uncle Joe is 5 years older, but my mother is a chain smoker who doesn't exercise and lets herself be upset about her son going to Kosovo (I am so tempted to send her an April Fools Day telegram saying I got killed by a landmine), while my Unlce lives on a ranch in Montana and is in better physical shape than me after I went through Basic Training. My prediction: My Uncle will outlive my mother, unless he dies in an accident from being so active.

Raveness> <<Theres another versoin called the NIV Bible out. It's "in moderen English." The King James is in old English. How King James watned it to be. He invented to King james version from waht I understand.>> Now, I use the New American Bible, but question. Why is modern English better? King James Bible is in Middle English, bordering on Modern English. From when I have read the King James Bible, I find it to contain a beauty in its prose and poetry unmatched by the NIV or even my New American Bible.

Ravyn> I'm glad to see you back even if only briefly.

Lain> I hope I am not one of those people...well at least this time :)

The Vulgate (Latin) Bible is more for testing your Latin, and if one can read the Latin Bible and understand it fully...that's worthy of bragging rights :) Plus Latin is a beautiful language, but so is King James English.

Imzadi> <<We generally keep Yiddish to ourselves. It's like a secret club, and you're only a member if you speak the language.>> I figured. It's a neat language and full of fun words. I though shickza menat non-Jewish girl.

Since you have always been an atheist I'm surprised you bothered with a Bar Mitzvah, though I guess its because I am not as familiar with Judiasm's cultural aspects, while I would tend to only think about its religious aspects.

John Locking> Please clarify...I don't follow what you're saying.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Camp Bondsteel, Kosovo
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:23:41 PM
IP: 136.216.75.6

Nice one Green baron, now here's some interesting facts about santa which I got off the net...

1. Santa has to visit 108 million homes, with about 3.5 children each.
2. Santa has 31 hours to go to all those homes, when traveling in the opposite direction of the rising sun.
3. According to the data above, Santa has to make 967.7 visits per second.
4. To do that, his sleigh must travel 650 miles per second, or 3,000 times the speed of sound.
5. If Santa traveled the speed of light, 186,282 mph, time would stand still for him, while the rest of the world aged normally. He'd go back to the North Pole and find that the Earth had aged 500 years.
6. 600,000 tons of presents are carried on his sleigh, so 600,000 tons of cargo going 650 miles per second would heat up the reindeer as much as when a space craft re-enters the atmosphere. At that rate the reindeer would absorb 14.3 quintillion joules of energy, per second, each. That would,under normal physics, cause the reindeer to burst instantaniously into flame, creating a deafening sonic-boom.
7. Santa would be subjected to centrifugal(pressure) forces 17,500.06 times greater than gravity, and would be pinned to the back of his sliegh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.

I had to laugh at that reindeer bit. :D

Leo> Happy belated birthday you old fogey! ;P

Gside> <<Nah, hermaphroditic lesbian catgirls with tentacles.>> Now THAT is a disgusting thought! Who in their right mind could think up something like tha... *pauses and thinks* ...Uh...Nevermind. *shuffles off quietly.*
Silverbolt
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:20:23 PM
IP: 62.7.106.137

Josh> << I'm sorry, I don't see how that's possible.>>

Ever hear of Satanists? O-o
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:15:53 PM
IP: 66.169.210.231

Lain> Ok. But readingthe Bible is how you find out stuff about Christiantly as well as talking to people. <and ive already read it likely more than my christian boyfriend and i still dont "get it" the way that you do.> Do you guys go to Church? <i have to process things through different filters from my experiences and some things.. well.. they just dont work. and when people tell me i have to think a certain way, and I cant.. well.. its like being talked down to.> <What? Why? If I can ask. < yeah, a promise that hed never FLOOD the world to destroy it.. no guarantee that he wont pick another way next time.> Ther Earth will be destoryed. Inthe end times. But. i don't thik well pwople are still on it. That's what i'm getting. <o.. infanticide is the best way of proving you exist?? o.O> ... No. But... Hey. i'm no paster or anything... < how else would you interpret someone who kills a bunch of children because their parents leader wont do what he wants? o.O i could use the term "spiteful brat" if youd prefer.. whats YOUR definition, then?> Are you talking about th verse in the Bible that says something like, Whoever doesn't love and follow God is like a branch that produsses no fruit and is cut away and thrown into the fire? That. Means that if you don't follow God you will go to Hell. Hey. And it is grusom I know. But. It's reallity and it's perventable. You can go to Heaven insted and spend forever with God. The one who made everything. <he TRANSLATED it, sure, and he didnt "want it that way" the just happened to be the way people actually SPOKE during that time.> What do you mean he didn't wnt it that way? That was there modern English back then? What? So in like 1000 years, if the English dialect has changed, people will bring the NIV Bible out and say what you just said about the King James verson? <having a version of the bible in english is one heck of a sight better (and better for the masses) than one in latin.> Yes. Everyoe should have a bible in the own language.
Ravenes
Saturday, December 7, 2002 11:17:43 AM
IP: 24.86.117.45

Iraq showing UN the WMD documents er warfare medical doctor of Malaysia feeling hurts over lyco.com stating about nemotodes and parasites as kitty jokes on searchengines eh??
John David Locking - [jlocking@hotmail.com]
Brussels, Ontario, Canada
Saturday, December 7, 2002 07:36:30 AM
IP: 209.167.20.197

The room seems a bit serious. Now, for some humor. Maybe early for Christmas, but well its advent, which is why I'm posting in purple, in case anyone didn't know why.

Excuse the English as this is written in coonass, I gurantee :)

Subject: Cajun 12 days of XmasDay

1 Dear Emile, Thanks for da bird in the Pear tree. I fixed it las night with dirty rice an it was delicious. I doan tink the Pear tree would grow in de swamp, so I swapped it for a Satsuma.

Day 2 Dear Emile, Your letter said you sent 2 turtle dove, but all I got was 2 scrawny pigeon. Anyway, I mixed them with andouille and made some gumbo out of dem.

Day 3 Dear Emile, Why doan you sen me some crawfish? I'm tired of eating dem darned bird. I gave two of those prissy French chicken to Mrs. Fontenot over at Grand Chenier, and fed the tird one to my dog, Phideaux. Mrs. Fontenot needed some sparring partners for her fighting rooster.

Day 4 Dear Emile, Mon Dieux! I tole you no more of dem bird. Deez four, what you call "calling bird" wuz so noisy you could hear dem all da' way to Lafayette. I used they necks for my crab traps, and fed the rest of dem to the gators.

Day 5 Dear Emile, You finally sent something useful. I liked dem golden rings, me. I hocked dem at da' pawn shop in Sulphur and got enough money to fix the shaft on my shrimp boat, and to buy a round for da boys at the Raisin' Cane Lounge. Merci Beaucoup!

Day 6 Dear Emile, Couchon! Back to da birds, you coonass turkey! Poor egg sucking Phideaux is scared to death ah dem six goose. He try to eat they eggs and they pecked the heck out ah his snout. Dem goose are damm good at eating cockroach around da' house, though. I may stuff one ah dem goose with erster dressing to serve him on Christmas Day.

Day 7 Dear Emile, I'm gonna wring your fool neck next time I see you. Ole Boudreaux, da mailman, is ready to kill you, too. The crap from all dem Bird is stinkin up his mailboat. He afraid someone will slip on dat stuff and gonna sue him. I let dem seven swan loose to swim on da bayou and some stupid duck hunter from Mississippi done blasted dem out da water. Talk to you tomorrow.

Day 8 Dear Emile, Poor ole Boudreaux had to make 3 trips on his mailboat to deliver dem 8 maids-a-milking &der cows. One of dem cows got spooked by da alligators and almost tipped over da boat. I doan like dem shiftless maids, me. I told dem to get to work gutting fish and sweeping my shack--but dey say it wasn't in their contract. They probably tink they too good to skin all dem nutria I caught las night.

Day 9 Dear Emile, What you trying to do? Boudreaux had to borrow da Cameron Ferry to carry these jumping twits you call lords-a-leaping across da bayou. As soon as dey got here dey wanted a tea break and crumpets. I doan know what dat means but I says, "Well la di da. You get Chicory coffee or nuthin." Mon Dieux, Emile, what I'm gonna feed all these bozos? They too snooty for fried nutria, and da cow ate up all my turnip green.

Day 10 Dear Emile, You got to be out of you mind. If da mailman don't kill you, I will. Today he deliver 10 half nekkid floozies from Bourbon Street. Dey said they be ladies dancing" but they doan act like ladies in front of dem Limey sailing boys. Dey almost left after one of them got bit by a water moccasin over by my out-house. I had to butcher 2 cows to feed toute le monde (everybody) and get toilet paper rolls. The Sears catalog wasn't good enough for dem hoity toity lords. Talk at you tomorrow.

Day 11 Dear Emile, Where Y'at? Cherio and pip pip. You 11 Pipers Piping arrived today from the House of Blues, second lining as dey got off da boat.
We fixed stuffed goose and beef jumbalaya, finished da whiskey, and we're having a fais-do-do. Da' new mailman drank a bottle of Jack Daniel, and he's having a good old time dancing with the floozies. Da' old mailman done jump off the Moss Bluff Bridge yesterday, screaming you name. If you happen to get a mysterious-looking, ticking package in da mail, don't open it.

Day 12 Dear Emile, Me I'm sorry to tell you--but I am not your true love anymore. After the fais-do-do, I spent da night with Jacque, the headpiper. We decide to open a restaurant and gentlemen's club on the bayou. The floozies--pardon me--ladies dancing can make $20 for a table dance, and the lords can be the waiters and valet park da boats. Since da' maids have no more cows to milk, I trained dem to set my crab traps, watch my trotlines, and run my shrimping business. We'll probably gross a million dollars next year.
Have a great Christmuss!
Marie

Green Baron
Saturday, December 7, 2002 06:11:10 AM
IP: 136.216.75.6

I just read an article about a really unorthodox weapon against terrorism. Click on my name to learn about Prok: The Other White Meat and anti-Terrorism weapon :)
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Saturday, December 7, 2002 05:55:28 AM
IP: 136.216.75.6

Well THAT day certainly felt longer than it should have. Had to wake up early so we could drive down to Apple for lunch. That lunch turned to be fruitless (no pun intended) as far as job-getting goes, but the food was good and I picked up a new battery for my iBook and a copy of RealMyst, a new version of the original Myst that uses the Quake engine so its all smooth and cool.

Unfortunately, due to the crappy programmers at UbiSoft, realmyst doesn't run well on dual-monitor, dual processor machines...which I happen to have. Bitter! I'll just have to play on iBook...or disconnect a monitor and a processor.

After we got back around...7!...I sat down and started hunting down recommendation letter forms for graduate schools. I have to provide my recommenders with the forms, addressed/stamped envelopes (cheapskates!), and specific instructions. They even need a rough draft of my personal statement. And these schools make it impossible to find anything on their sites. I finally decided I won't be applying to CalTech because I couldn't find the info I need on their site. That's one less application fee.

I'll spend the rest of this weekend finishing up that cursed paper.

Green Baron: <>: We generally keep Yiddish to ourselves. It's like a secret club, and you're only a member if you speak the language.

Kaioto: <<Do contractors EVER read the specs given to them?>>; If they did, lawyers would be out of work. <<there is the very real possibility of a God that simply Can Not save everyone>>: No, there is not. According to the faith, there is NOTHING that is beyond god's power. He is OMNIPOTENT. That's what omnipotent means.

Spacebabie: <<How desperate are these virgins?>>: Dogs hump trees all the time. <<Good luck>>: Thanks. It went well. They liked the nifty animations in our powerpoint presentation. <<Mincemeat is minced bits of fruit mixed with sweet spice>>: Whatever. <<Hippys reek>>: Anyone who doesn't shower will reek. <<Neener I don�t have finals>>: God I hate you. <<of course I am blond>>: Does that mean you don't know anything? <<You want to end up with six wives?>>: Depends. Can they wash dishes? <<there wouldn�t be a need for a wipe>>: Ever.

Lain: <<since when?>>: Since she has no english skills 8-) <>: I don't think you can blame all that on your mother's death. The first year, maybe. But every year since then? Come on. <<it was GODS plan because it "made me a stronger person" uh huh>>: That's funny, you seem pretty weak to me. If your mom was still around you wouldn't be having the trouble you do with your abusive, power-tripping father. <<cains wifes heritage>>: And just where did SHE come from? <<shed be burning in hell right now>>: And that just makes the suffering god created even worse, doesn't it? <<how observations of the universe show the expansion actually speeding up, not slowing down>>: Uh...no. I don't know where you're getting your info from, but the astrophysics research here says its slowing down to a negative-logarithmic expansion pattern. <<because they process it through different filters, even if you read the same translation>>: I love how that happens. How the "good christian people" think that if I read it just a few more times, with them looking over my shoulder to tell me the "correct" interpretation (what is this, high school english? My interpretation is my own, damnit!) that I would see the light and accept Jesus as my personal lord and savior. I'd rather be impaled with a spoon. <<we SEE things as being orderly.. but theyre not so much, glaxies colliding all over the place>>: That's a really good point. Its not really order, its just working. <<nor (it seems) do all things obey these laws>>: Actually they do, they just obey different laws. We don't have a GUT yet, but when we do everything *should* follow it. In theory. <<pecans grow on TREES!?>>: Uh, yes. <<im not sure if josh ever WAS jewish>>: I've never believed in god, no. But I've always been a very bad jew. <<is not GOD in control of all things?>>: Christians seem to be very confused on this. Either he's omnipotent or not. He can't be both. Frankly, if I were omnipotent, I would override free will to avoid stuff that pisses me off. <<he kills your son as a punnishment for pissing him of>>: Yeah, that doesn't seem like a very reasonable punishment, does it? <<infanticide is the best way of proving you exist?>>: In all fairness, he did try NINE other plagues. I would have believed at river of blood, I think... <<than one in latin>>; The first bible was written in Greek, then Hebrew, then Latin, then old english, then new english. That's 4 translations, not counting whatever "telephone" business occurred between god's lips and the paper the first time around.

Ravenes: <<Theres another versoin called the NIV Bible out. It's "in moderen English.">>: basically what that means is that its gone through AT LEAST THREE translations, becoming less clear each time. Now its the version that not only do you accept to be true, but you KNOW is true, even though the translation you read means something completely different from the original. <<The rainbow, means that He will never destory the world like that again>>: No, it means that sunlight shining through humid air refracts differently for each wavelength. Pretty simple. <<Where are u getting this stuff?>>: From the bible. God is vengeful and wrathful in ALL OF GENESIS. Not once does he say "good job" or "I will reward you this way" after Adam & Eve eat the apple. No, its just "strike you down" this and "you shall burn" that.

Gabriel: <<They have *chosen* to not recieve God's forgiveness, knowing fully what it is>>: I'm sorry, I don't see how that's possible. If god's will is so great and i understood it to be such, then I'd be a schmuck not to accept it. Clearly, then, I don't understand, and as such I cannot be condemned. I'll never know what God's will for me is, because I'm not a believer.

Godiva: <<but I know my son is important, even if others don�t>>: well I've got a surprise for you: you're wrong. You don't know it. You hope and pray its the case, but you don't know. Second, I'll give you $20 if it turns out that he IS important. And important does not mean "he married a girl and had 2 kids, so he's important to them, so there!" <<His TV was plugged in to the extension cord>>: That would be a closed circuit. And that's why your son didn't die. <<You don�t know anything about my church�s knowledge>>: Wrong again. I know your church's knowledge is based of a third-order translation and that no one in your church has ever met satan. In fact, no one has met Satan since Jesus. <<ou were Jewish, right? But now you�re an atheist. Yippee! Score one for Satan>>: Actually one has nothing to do with the other. For me, being Jewish is about culture, not about religion. So few Jews care about their faith that its a joke. Being a jew is about being a good person. Its about charity and good will towards other people, whether or not you believe in god. It's about family, about good food and better parties. And the best part about it is that its as organized or unorganized as you want it to be. No one will tell you you're gonna go to hell, because there isn't one. <<Jesus wants me to spend the rest of eternity with Him in heaven.>>: WHY!? Do you think you're that entertaining? <<Umm�I plead the 5th.>>: Yeah, well you're going to hell for that. <<But Satan is a stupid MF. He just doesn�t get it.>>: No, in your last post you were telling me that Satan is clever and will try any trick in the book. So is he clever or stupid? Pick one. <<Judgment Day is for those left on Earth after Jesus reappears and takes His followers to heaven.>>: Um, that's not what happens during Judgement day. Jesus comes back, and those who are good go to heaven and those who are bad go to hell, and then the respective forces duke it out for total domination of the afterlife. That battle is not decided, in the bible or anywhere else. <<I�m no expert on electricity, but with the way those two keys look, it is my belief that my little boy should be dead>>: YOUR BELIEF IS WRONG. If you *were* an expert on electricity, or had even taken basic E&M, you would know that your son shouldn't be dead. HE JUST SHOULDN'T BE DEAD. This isn't the kind of believe where you can say you believe in something that may or may not exist. This is like looking at a Jeep and saying "I'm no expert on cars, but its my belief that Porsche made that Jeep". It doesn't matter if that's your belief, because porsche doesn't make Jeeps! Its just wrong, period. <>: Then its as much a miracle as the fact that you don't cut your fingers off preparing your son's lunches. You know what I meant. <<have ever noticed that women drivers will not let you get in front of them, pass them, merge in front of them, etc.? >>: Women drivers, no survivors. << But God�s time isn�t the same as our time. A human day to God could be the equivalent of 1,000,000 years>>: Yeah, it could be...but nowhere in the bible does it say that. It says 6 days. Its very specific about other things, like the fact that the first humans lived for hundreds of years. I think the bible demonstrates a pretty firm grasp of the concept of time. <<God would not be responsible if he had died>>: This is the most blind statement I've ever heard. << I�d assume that I did something extremely displeasing to him>>: That'll teach you to stop having sex for pleasure! << He wants for us to live until we decide that we�re ready to be with Him>>: Then why did he wipe out Soddom & Gamorrah? <>: Obviously it wasn't that big a deal or he wouldn't have married you. When you are a hard-liner about your religion (or lack thereof), you can't be with someone who believes the opposite. It just doesn't work. << Yes, God gave us free will, but our decisions are our own>>: Yes, dear, that's what free will means. <<God will save us from our bad decisions is if we acknowledge that we�re in over our heads and then we pray for God to help deliver us>>: I have to say that this whole scenario you've concocted sounds a bit like a rat maze experiment. He gave us free will, but he doesn't really want us to use it unless we use it to admit that we can't handle free will? If we use the free will that he gave us in the most beautiful way we can imagine, that is, to think independently, we go to hell? Just out of curiosity, if you hadn't prayed that night and the same "near-death" had happened with your son, would it have reinforced your belief in god? Would it have been any less of a "miracle"? Worse, do you still think its a miracle even though the engineers in here have explained it many times?

Fire Storm: <<Saw it on HBO a few days ago, liked it, bought the DVD, and saw the second movie Thursday>>: Good for you. Its a good set of stories. <>: Dude, she's 14. But wait a few years, she's gonna be in all the porn. <<Take the TV>>: Good luck getting it out of the apartment. I'm not even sure how we got it here in the first place.

Leo: Happy birthday. <<Don't make me thrash you with my walking cane>>: When my roommate turned 21 (he was the first), he started calling us all "smart assed whipper-snappers".

Gside: <<This place was hacked together by one guy>>: Badly. <<how long was the first day without light?>>: 24 hours. What was the tallest mountain on earth before they discovered Mt. Everest? <<the smallest measurement of length with any meaning>>: Whether or not it has meaning is irrelevant. It still exists, even if the number is useless. So he's saying that distances between 0 and 1.6e-35 don't exist? I THINK NOT. <<10-20 times the size of a proton>>: I fail to see how the smallest quantum could be any larger than the size of a proton. <<No smaller division of time has any meaning>>: Again, that makes no physical sense to me. <<we can say only that the universe came into existence when it already had an age of 10-43 seconds>>: Sounds like a rounding error to me. <<What does he know about it?>>: See Dogma. <>: Nor I dividing. <<Where's the meat?>>: I'm beginning to suspect its a sham.

Okay, enough mythology for one night.

66. My security keypad will actually be a fingerprint scanner. Anyone who watches someone press a sequence of buttons or dusts the pad for fingerprints then subsequently tries to enter by repeating that sequence will trigger the alarm system.

Josh - [ATkicktothenutsDOTcom]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Saturday, December 7, 2002 04:37:12 AM
IP: 64.165.203.13

Lain> God can very well reveal his will to people, which is what I was saying.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Saturday, December 7, 2002 01:57:37 AM
IP: 66.169.210.231

Tony Elliot> <<ADMIN - could you please delete them?>>: This place was hacked together by one guy, and it generates flat HTML out of submitted comments, so there is no post level administrative control.

Imzadi> <<On *this* planet, a day is 24 hours>>: But how long was the first day without light? Sorry, Inherit The Wind sticks with me.
<<What're his thoughts on the subject?>>: To quote: "The Planck length is the scale at which classical ideas about gravity and space-time cease to be valid, and quantum effects dominate. This is the �quantum of length�, the smallest measurement of length with any meaning.

And roughly equal to 1.6 x 10-35 m or about 10-20 times the size of a proton.

The Planck time is the time it would take a photon travelling at the speed of light to across a distance equal to the Planck length. This is the �quantum of time�, the smallest measurement of time that has any meaning, and is equal to 10-43 seconds. No smaller division of time has any meaning. With in the framework of the laws of physics as we understand them today, we can say only that the universe came into existence when it already had an age of 10-43 seconds."
<<Particle physics, no?>>: Yeah, but there's also a good bit of influence from crossovers in meiosis.
<<Law is when its proven, right?>>: Sounds about right.
<<Chris Rock>>: What does he know about it?
<<Huh?>>: As you claim Jewish lineage, I thought you might prefer an Old Testament miracle to a New Testament miracle.
<<It will when I make one and write one>>: It's a pretty fancy box.
<<Oooh oooh aah aah!>>: Ook.
<<Actually, turns out I was wrong again>>: The reason I wasn't sure was because I didn't remember the propeties of multiplying infinities.

Spacebabie> <>: May I introduce you to a male amazon?
<<Mincemeat is minced bits of fruit mixed with sweet spice>>: Where's the meat?

Godiva> <<with the way those two keys look, it is my belief that my little boy should be dead>>: Think about this: you light a match and then blow it out. One end of the match is blackened and had recently been at temperatures around 500 Farenheit; the end that you were holding was actually heated by the flame and looks fine. Does that mean your hand should be burnt? The burning end of the match is like the electricity that passed through the keys; the other end was heated proportionally as much as the amount of electricity that went through your son. Do not say a miracle was in the breaking of laws of physics if it could have easily been in a fortunate conjunction of events.
<<A human day to God could be the equivalent of 1,000,000 years>>: But we're talking about the age of the earth in terms of human time.

Fire Storm> <<John Bon Jovi? Is there a newer version of that song?>>: Yes, that Bon Jovi. I posted it 14 mp3s ago. He released it in mid 2000.
<>: There are people fantasizing about furries even without the push.
<<whisker tentacles>>: I was thinking more from the back, but that might work quite well.

Happy birthday Leo.

Leo> <<Sounds like a TROMA movie>>: A good Jersey industry.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:55:07 AM
IP: 165.230.240.116

gabe>> i would have thought that only GOD could know HIS will for you.. but if you really do have diety mind-reading skills, let me in on it, we could make a fortune :P
lain
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:53:45 AM
IP: 65.93.74.172

lain> <<dont you think its a little.. well.. arrogant to assume that you can "see GODs will" for you?>>

Not in the slightest.

Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:35:16 AM
IP: 66.169.210.231

godiva>> <<Lain, you sound a lot like my husband did after his mother died>> except for the part where i DO actually go to church, and you CAN actually say the word "church" in my presence <<Cannot or will not?>> by your definition.. will not. <<The only way that God will save us from our bad decisions is if we acknowledge that we�re in over our heads and then we pray for God to help deliver us>> yeah, i get what youre trying to say, but i disagree. it doesnt follow that if you pray to GOD, hell deliver your son from the silly decision of electrocuting himself :P to my understanding, when one prays, one is not supposed to ask the almighty for ANYTHING, rather, one is to say "GOD, work your will through me". not "our father who art in heaven, do this and gimme this etc" <> *falls out of chair* actually, im not sure if josh ever WAS jewish, or not. <<But it ends with both. The victory in heaven is for the ones who believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Apocalypse and Judgment Day is for those left on Earth after Jesus reappears and takes His followers to heaven>> we *ARE* all aware that "revelation" has already come to pass, are we not? i hope so :P <<No, God would not be responsible if he had died>> is not GOD in control of all things? <<No, I wouldn�t assume that God had be slacking on the job. I�d assume that I did something extremely displeasing to him>> well, i sure as heck dont want to believe in YOUR GOD, if he kills your son as a punnishment for pissing him off.. why are you worshipping him again???? thats like saying GOD killed my mother (or let her die) because i did something bad. i hope you dont mind if im even MORE offended that i was before :P

.. what church do you go to again???

raveness>> <<What are ur veiws?>> not telling. theyre not solid enough to share yet. <<Am I beening rude to u? Hey, I jsut wanta try and help u>> nah, youre not being rude. i just get aggravated when people tell me to "read the bible and then youll understand" and ive already read it likely more than my christian boyfriend and i still dont "get it" the way that you do. i have to process things through different filters from my experiences and some things.. well.. they just dont work. and when people tell me i have to think a certain way, and i cant.. well.. its like being talked down to. :P <<The rainbow, means that He will never destory the world like that again. That's a promise>> yeah, a promise that hed never FLOOD the world to destroy it.. no guarantee that he wont pick another way next time :P <<Ya. He was trying to... Proove a point. I think He wanted Pherrow to know He was real>> so.. infanticide is the best way of proving you exist?? o.O <<<<a form of revenge>> Where are u getting this stuff?>> how else would you interpret someone who kills a bunch of children because their parents leader wont do what he wants? o.O i could use the term "spiteful brat" if youd prefer.. whats YOUR definition, then? <> king james invented the bible?! whaaaaa? :P he TRANSLATED it, sure, and he didnt "want it that way" the just happened to be the way people actually SPOKE during that time. having a version of the bible in english is one heck of a sight better (and better for the masses) than one in latin.

kai>> <<I'm not even going to try and get into the projected anger issues with your father and how he treated you with your relationship to that Judao-Christian God-head model popularly portrayed as fatherly / grandfatherly personalification of some sort>> good, i wouldnt waste your breath. for the record, im not angry with GOD, im just angry with some peoples interpretations of what they think GOD is/does which are so clearly WRONG when viewed through my filters. i am horrified, sickened and deeply disturbed by some of the views that have been expressed here in the last few days..

gabe>> <<John sees God's will for him and hates it>> dont you think its a little.. well.. arrogant to assume that you can "see GODs will" for you?

leo>> <<Don't make me thrash you with my walking cane>> youll have to catch me first!!! NYAH NYAAAAAH!!!!!!! *gives him a big fat birthday cake and some mothballs and runs* ;)

mmmmmmmm mutant mistletoe.... *snatches gunjack over, but thoughtfully hauls his huge black trenchcoat over both of them before beginning the smooch-fest* that way, i dont have to provide buckets ;)

speaking of mistletoe.. you should see my ceiling.. mwa ha ha.. gunjack gets here on the 14th......
lain
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:23:51 AM
IP: 65.93.74.172

Leo> Well Well, *Sings the Happy birthday song to Leo.* O. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!
Ravenes
Saturday, December 7, 2002 12:05:41 AM
IP: 24.86.117.45

Happy Birthday to ME!

Yep. In exactly 3 more years I'll be 30. Meaning I'm 27, single, and still don't know exactly what I want to do with my life.

---enough of that---

Parents took me to Ruby Tuesday's for dinner. Had a bacon cheeseburger. The official "birthday dinner" with cake will be on Sunday so my grandmother can come.

----------------------------------------

Thanks for the birthday wishes.

Fire Storm:<>PEDOPHILES!!! (furry or not)<<Catgirls with tentacles?>>Sounds like a TROMA movie.:p

Godiva:<<Enjoy your late twenties because before you know it, 30 will be on you faster than you think>>AAAAAAAAAAAGH!! Oh the PRESSURE!!!! 8)

lain:<<OLD GEEZER ALERT!!!!>>Don't make me thrash you with my walking cane. :p

Spacebabie:<<Moulin Rouge pic for MGC>>That movie gave me a headache. Cabaret was better. :p <<On each side of the label were pictures of maids with their legs wrapped around a tree>>What brand? Extra? Is this a Florida thing, like that "good head" barber shop commercial you mentioned?<<but that was all that was taught in my high school World History class.>>I thought Egypt's Coptic Church came before Luther.

Leo
Friday, December 6, 2002 11:53:03 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Hey, all! Just peeking in for a sec to wish two very special people well! :)

FS & LM> CONGRATULATIONS on the engagement!!!!!!!!!! **giggles excitedly** That's so awesome!!!!! Keep me 'n Don posted on yer wedding plans, okay? I'll definitely have to show up for it, or at the very least send you a gift and all that good stuff. ;) Big huge congratulations!!!! **hugs** :) And yes, if you get ring pictures or *any* pictures or whatever, I'd love to see them ... :) I'm so happy for the two of you, and I hope things are going well with the house and all that! :)

Good luck to everyone who has finals and projects coming up ... I feel your pain! ;)

Later all ...
Ravyn
Friday, December 6, 2002 11:22:48 PM
IP: 150.135.118.113

**Official TGS Announcement**

The art section of the TGS Website is going to be updated to incorporate pictures from stories that were released after the last time that page was updated. Along with that, some organizational changes will be occuring in that section. Input is appreciated and encouraged for how the Art Section of the TGS Website should look. Please email tgs_info@yahoo.com for suggestions about improving that section of the website and PLEASE email locations of dead links and pages containing out of date information within the TGS website. When the work on that section of the website is completed, an announcement indicating the end of work on that section of the website will be made.

**END OFFICIAL TGS Announcement**
DPH
AR, USA
Friday, December 6, 2002 10:23:53 PM
IP: 204.94.193.64

DERN LOT BOYS!
Fire Storm
Friday, December 6, 2002 09:23:35 PM
IP: 66.72.186.61

Hey all! Thanks for the congrats on the engagement! We are happy, and hopefully there will be ring pics up soon (as in before Armageddon)

Religious argument: Fun fun fun!

Harry Potter: Saw it on HBO a few days ago, liked it, bought the DVD, and saw the second movie Thursday.
Now I will probably read the books too.

Hyperion: <I'll have you know I'm waging a guerilla war against the particular cult. "Hyperion Cultist Extermination Squad: You hate 'em, we crate 'em">
Works for me! Are nukes allowed?

Revel: <Yes, back massages are the way to go, plus you can do even more than just relax the muscles>
Let's see... foot washes... relaxing baths... back/neck/leg/forehead massages... I think I have it all!

Gside: <Bon Jovi. Jersey boy. And has been confused by my father.>
John Bon Jovi? Is there a newer version of that song?
<http://www.xiaoxiaomovie.com>
Oh, THAT site! Yeah, I know it!

I saw Harry Potter 2 last night and when she turned into the cat furry... I KNEW there would people fantasizing about that!
<Nah, hermaphroditic lesbian catgirls with tentacles>
Catgirls with tentacles? Hmm... whisker tentacles!

Imzadi: <Took yer sweet frikkin' time! Jeez, even I'd have popped the question by now! And I'm going to be a bachelor for life!>
Well, I DID unofficailly ask her YEARS ago, but now was the first time we were actually able to make it official, with no worries about her getting kicked out of her fathers house because she was engaged/married, and I am now making enough money and my job seems relatively secure.
<True, we can protect our computers from thieves more easily>
Take the TV, take the DVD's, but you even TOUCH the computers, and there will be hell to pay!
<But why would they want to do a file check?>
Well, why not?
<What glory? Oh, you must mean "money".>
There's a difference?

Spacebabie: <True but sometimes the footsie needs a love rub>
But she REALLY needs a tootsie rub! ;)
<Can he sing Sweet Transvestite?>
I KNEW I forgot to ask something!
<Down boy or no fresh meat for you!>
Ah, there were carolers today so I got my fresh meat.

Also, new e-mail address. Catch it now, because I will most likely never post it again!
Fire Storm - [FS (AT) mysticstorm.com]
Friday, December 6, 2002 09:23:15 PM
IP: 66.72.186.61

Since DPH is so worried about his holographic mistletoe being corrupted and claims its not corruptable... *Robby comes in, and just to spite DPH, brings out some good ol' fashion mistletoe, plants it at the entrance, and as a matter of annual CR tradition, it starts to mutate almost immediatley in ways limited only by the imagination*

I know it just annoys those not in a relationshio, (and sometimes those that are) to read about other people's smooch fests, so I'm not gonna do any of that here. But since the holographic mistletoe is supposedly uncorruptable (I could find a way, I'm sure) I'm just putting in some of the good old fashioned, easily corrupted and mutated stuff. Have fun.

ANd don't bother trying to destroy it, I can just bring in more. Bwa ha ha.
Robby
Friday, December 6, 2002 07:46:21 PM
IP: 205.188.208.9

Lain> <duh, i wasnt arguing against you, i was expressing my problems with the "universal salvation" theory which gabe proposed.> What are ur veiws? <lso duh. i have about four copies of that, and a couple other versions, too.> Am I beening rude to u? Hey, I jsut wanta try and help u. <<He invented to King james version from waht I understand> I ment. He. ( King James) invented the King james verson as i understand. <why would GOD make rules if it didnt matter if we followed them or not?> He does want us to follow them. but He also gives us a chose if we want to follow them. <the idea of "perfect compassion and love" doesnt follow too well for me either.> Ya. I know. It's hard to grasp. But... He is. We just have to trust Him on that. <considering the whole "flood that wiped out the world because people were pissing GOD off."> He wanted to wipe the world of evil. That's how much He hates it. BUT. The rainbow, means that He will never destory the world like that again. That's a promise. <"murdering all the firstborn of egypt because pharoah wouldnt do what he told moses to tell him to do" thing.> Ya. He was trying to... Proove a point. I think He wanted Pherrow to know He was real. <There isn't much a damned person can learn from damnation, by definition. Hence, I can't see an all-loving God eternally damning folks to "teach them a lesson.> Hey. It's mans follt too. They, We have a chose. <<a form of revenge>> Where are u getting this stuff? Or is this 3 agruments going on?
Ravenes
Friday, December 6, 2002 06:17:39 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

Okay, so I'm resonding to posts made a couple of days ago. Better late than never, I always say.

Anyway, on to replies:

Leo-<<Although the "do you really believe that your son is important enough..." seemed a bit mean>> I thought that it was, too. I could�ve chosen the low road and responded as such, but I know my son is important, even if others don�t. Oh, BTW...Happy Birthday. Enjoy your late twenties because before you know it, 30 will be on you faster than you think. I know because it seems like yesterday I was 27. Now I'm 35 and I'll be 36 in April. UGH!

Gside-<<Unless something's plugged into the other end, it's still an open circuit.>> His TV was plugged in to the extension cord.

Josh-<<You don't know anything about satan. Even assuming he exists, I'd say your churches knowledge on his personality is questionable at best.>> You don�t know anything about my church�s knowledge. <<He tried that trick with Job and it failed.>> Yeah, Satan is stupid. He failed, but he�s going to keep on trying. I mean, look at you. You were Jewish, right? But now you�re an atheist. Yippee! Score one for Satan. <<And Jesus. He wants to corrupt you.>> That�s a load of crap. After I die, Jesus wants me to spend the rest of eternity with Him in heaven. <<Ever had sex without the purpose of conceiving a child?>> Umm�I plead the 5th. ;-) <<Actually, no. If I *knew* I was going to be defeated, I wouldn't bother struggling at all because it wouldn't matter what I did. I'd just sit back, smoke cigars, and seduce hot women.>> But Satan is a stupid MF. He just doesn�t get it. <<Notice that the bible doesn't end with the victory of heaven, it ends with the mention of the apocalypse and judgment day.>> But it ends with both. The victory in heaven is for the ones who believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Apocalypse and Judgment Day is for those left on Earth after Jesus reappears and takes His followers to heaven. <<Satan's victor or loss is far from decided, and as such he's busy trying to get souls. He's fighting because he thinks he can win. Only a fool would try to fight after knowing that loss is inevitable, and you can't tell me that you believe Satan is a fool. >> Satan is the biggest fool this side of Michael Jackson. <<If they were playing in the room, there must have been something to play with.>> I meant that I didn�t see anything by the outlet or the bed that the outlet is next to.<<No, see, he *shouldn't* be dead.>> I�m no expert on electricity, but with the way those two keys look, it is my belief that my little boy should be dead. <<the fact that you didn't get a hit by a car on your way home from work>> I don�t work. I�m a stay-at-home-mom. <<(though if you live in CA I guess that statement doesn't hold much meaning).>> Yeah, where do they get their licenses?? Speaking of CA drivers, have ever noticed that women drivers will not let you get in front of them, pass them, merge in front of them, etc.? Back when we lived in Culver City, I had gone to Toys �R� Us with my two older kids (who were at the time still in the stroller) and when I wanted to cross the road to get to my sister�s car, NONE of the women drivers stopped. Finally a male driver let me cross.
<< <<the bible has never stated the age of the earth>>: Um, Genesis: six days. On *this* planet, a day is 24 hours>> But God�s time isn�t the same as our time. A human day to God could be the equivalent of 1,000,000 years.

Gunjack-<<If God is directly responsible when your son was spared, would he not also be responsible if your son had died?>> No, God would not be responsible if he had died. <<If your son had died, would you assume that God had been slacking on the job?>> No, I wouldn�t assume that God had be slacking on the job. I�d assume that I did something extremely displeasing to him. <<Do you believe that God doesn't use death and tragedy to his own ends, as well as life and rejoicing?>> What I believe is that God does not want death and tragedy, He wants for us to live until we decide that we�re ready to be with Him. I don�t mean suicide, either. In God�s eyes, suicide is the most selfish thing a person could do.

Spacebabie-<<Hmmm not bad, I was thinking of Cary Elwes and Revel thought of Jude Law.>> Not Cary Elwes. He�s got the Castaway look, but after seeing him in �The Pricess Bride,� I�d be thinking of the Dread Pirate Roberts (�as you wiiiish��), not Jon Castaway. Jude Law? That might be do-able

Lain--<<as for my mother.. My ARGUMENT is that it seems absurd to say that "GOD saved someone" because it does logically follow that if he did "intervene" to save them, then he DIDNT do so in order to save OTHER people.>> Lain, you sound a lot like my husband did after his mother died. She had cancer and she was in a lot of pain. What made it so hard for David was that his mother was extremely active in the church�she was a counselor, she sang in the choir, did street witnessing, shared the Gospel with people in prison�You name it, she probably did it. He was extremely pissed off with God when his mother passed and he even stopped going to church. I couldn�t even mention church to him. His mother passed away 13 years ago and it was only last year that he started going to church again. <<And I *cannot* comprehend the idea of worshipping a being with whims like that.>> Cannot or will not? If you say that you cannot, you�re saying that you cannot comprhend at this moment worshipping God, but maybe later on you�ll worship him. If you say will not, then that suggests that you�ll never worship God. <<The fact that stuff happens? Now THAT I can do. Just because "stuff happens" doesn�t necessarily mean there is no GOD, it just means GOD has better stuff to do than muck around saving us from the bad decisions *we* make using that whole "free will" thing he supposedly gave us>> But that�s just the thing�Things DON�T just happen. Yes, God gave us free will, but our decisions are our own. The only way that God will save us from our bad decisions is if we acknowledge that we�re in over our heads and then we pray for God to help deliver us.

Mooncat-<<I'm glad Godiva's son is well and healthy. And be it an act of god or simple dumb luck, it's a result we can all be thankful for, to whatever or whoever we give thanks to.>> Thank you for that. As I told someone else (I forgot who, it might have been Josh), I didn�t post that because I wanted to change anyone�s view on God and whether He saved my son (though that�s what I believe). I only posted it because, as a parent, it was such a freaky thing to have happen to one of my kids.

Godiva - [renee_prater@rocketmail.com]
Montclair, Ca, USA
Friday, December 6, 2002 05:30:36 PM
IP: 24.52.251.66

Lain> Unviersal Salvation doesn't say that everyone is saved. Those who receive the Holy Spirit and reject it, fully knowing God's will for them (the way of love and mercy) are the ones who will be condemned. They have *chosen* to not recieve God's forgiveness, knowing fully what it is.

For example John Doe has recieved a revelation from God, and God has sent the Holy Spirit to him. John sees God's will for him and hates it, rejects it, and rejects the Holy Spirit (thus somewhat blaspheming the Holy Spirit). John has chosen to not recieve salvation and will thus be condemend.

Those two web-sites I sent you can better direct you than I can since I am still undecided on Universal Salvation.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, December 6, 2002 04:31:31 PM
IP: 66.169.210.231

raveness>> <<Everyone is not saved. so , we Chistians, have to tell peoppe like u>> duh, i wasnt arguing against you, i was expressing my problems with the "universal salvation" theory which gabe proposed. <<Theres another versoin called the NIV Bible out>> also duh. i have about four copies of that, and a couple other versions, too. <<He invented to King james version from waht I understand>> huh?

mostly gabe and a little kai>> my OTHER problem with the whole "universal salvation" thing is that.. well.. why would GOD make rules if it didnt matter if we followed them or not? what sense would that make? the idea of "perfect compassion and love" doesnt follow too well for me either, considering the whole "flood that wiped out the world because people were pissing GOD off" thing and the "murdering all the firstborn of egypt because pharoah wouldnt do what he told moses to tell him to do" thing. <<There isn't much a damned person can learn from damnation, by definition. Hence, I can't see an all-loving God eternally damning folks to "teach them a lesson." I could certainly see people who simply reject fundamentals of virtue such as compassion and love creating a Hell around them>> now that, yes, i can go for that. however, im sure youd agree that isnt the general theory and idea of hell that you see floatin around out there, is it? but since GOD is supposedly eternal and "outside time" and all that, then i suppose you could argue that people living like that really ARE in hell, since heaven and hell would have to be outside of time as well. <<a form of revenge>> oh, dont try to tell me the bible doesnt portray GOD as vengeful.. cause THAT one wont fly.. :P
lain
Friday, December 6, 2002 03:12:35 PM
IP: 65.93.74.172

Lain> *Sigh* Ok. I'll talk. <if "everyone gets saved" they why bother making such a fuss and debate over it.> Everyone is not saved. so , we Chistians, have to tell peoppe like u. <why not make something like that VERY CLEAR instead of saying little itsy bitsy confusing things like "except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish" or "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"?? o.O> That's in the King James versian. it's harder to understand. Theres another versoin called the NIV Bible out. It's "in moderen English." The King James is in old English. How King James watned it to be. He invented to King james version from waht I understand.
Ravenes - [Dark_Shadow500@hotmail.com]
Friday, December 6, 2002 02:52:43 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

and, if "everyone gets saved" they why bother making such a fuss and debate over it. why not make something like that VERY CLEAR instead of saying little itsy bitsy confusing things like "except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish" or "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"?? o.O
lain
Friday, December 6, 2002 02:46:34 PM
IP: 65.93.74.172

Lain > Ok, sorry. I didn't see a smiley so I thought you were just in a bad mood. My bad.

As for tough-love and punishment, I can't really see damnation as a punishment. The current working model of damnation looks more like a self-inflicted injury than a punishment.

Beyond that, from the standpoint of perfect compassion, punishment as an action is only valuable if it is reformatory. Any other behavior (death penalty, life in prison) isn't really a punishment, per se, but rather a form of revenge or defense of those who would be harmed.

There isn't much a damned person can learn from damnation, by definition. Hence, I can't see an all-loving God eternally damning folks to "teach them a lesson." I could certainly see people who simply reject fundamentals of virtue such as compassion and love creating a Hell around them. I've seen enough examples of that in the real world.
Kaioto
Friday, December 6, 2002 02:39:15 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

kai>> not flaming, teasing. i disagree with the whole "universal salvation" thing hes got going because.. well.. just because someone "loves you" doesnt mean they cant be angry with you or wouldnt want to punnish you if you do wrong. "tough love" i believe is the term.
lain
Friday, December 6, 2002 02:26:10 PM
IP: 65.93.74.172

Lain > Play nice now. No flaming.
Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Friday, December 6, 2002 02:10:09 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Lain > I can hold an internally-consistant belief in an intervention-making God without believing that your mother died while others (like yourself) lived because she "wasn't good / cool / holy enough." I agree with you in thinking the very suggestion is deplorable.

For the record, I never claimed anything about God choosing people he thought were cooler and saving them. Secondly, saving people at random isn't the same thing as playing favorites either. As I've pointed out before, there is the very real possibility of a God that simply Can Not save everyone or even a large number of people for various reasons. And no, I don't believe for a second that God does decide who to save and who not to save based on someone being "cooler" or "holier than thou."

See, you refuse to aknowledge the possibility of any sort of other factor in determining who's life would be saved other than, "God's playing favorites and being a jerk." That's certainly not the only possibility. I've seen plenty of life-and-death scenarios where decisions weren't made based on favoritism, but on logic. Firefighters have to make those sorts of decisions all the time.

You're still alive, probably only because your mother became ill early enough to keep you from being fatally exposed like she and your dog were. Would letting you die and your mother live have been an more fair, honestly? It doesn't seem like you attribute much worth to the life that her death wound up preserving, mostly due to the suffering your father put you through. I hope your future is a brighter, and leads you to believe that life was more valuable, and that your mother wouldn't be ashamed of you.

I'm not a shrink. I'm not even going to try and get into the projected anger issues with your father and how he treated you with your relationship to that Judao-Christian God-head model popularly portrayed as fatherly / grandfatherly personalification of some sort.

I just hope some day you can get some separation of yourself from all that pain.
Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Friday, December 6, 2002 02:07:47 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

gabe>> MORON!! :P
lain
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:58:57 PM
IP: 65.93.74.172

lain> <<cause, she being an unbeliever and all, according to YOUR "christian idea of death" shed be burning in hell right now, you moron :P>>

I'm actually partial to the Universal Salvation interpretation of the Bible. So don't call me a moron when you don't even understand all the Christian concpets of the after life.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:57:01 PM
IP: 66.169.210.231

Baron: Actually, we jokingly refer to non-jewish women as "shikzahs" which loosely translates to "gold digging blond bimbo"...not that all non-jewish women are gold digging blond bimbos (and there are plenty of jewish gold digging blond bimbos), but its funny anyway.

as in the phrase: "shikzahs are for practice" <- told to young jewish boys.
Josh
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:39:09 PM
IP: 66.125.228.168

oh my GAWD!!! they DO!!!! *runs out to buy pecans*

that is THE COOLEST THING!!!
lain
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:34:58 PM
IP: 65.93.74.172

spacebabie>> <<The state tree of Texas is the pecan tree>> pecans grow on TREES!?!?!??? o.O
lain
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:14:03 PM
IP: 65.93.74.172

heather>> <<I'll only draw... It's easier...>> :P:P since when??

ed>> <<hopefully he�ll be playing Jack Bauer>> mmmmmmmmm 24.... *rubs hands* nina is sooooo NASTY!!!! i want to kick her @$$ i'm so proud jack's keeping his cool so well.. the writers of 24 are my heroes! <<Far be it from me to second guess Lain of course>> well, of course ;)

leo>> <<"3 more years to 30" (27)on Friday>> AAAAAH RUN AWAAAAAY!!! OLD GEEZER ALERT!!!! ;) happy birthday anyways, ya geezer ;)

kaioto>> <> um.. isnt that what i was arguing? if he saved godivas son, and not someone else, from their own bad choice (ie sticking something in a light socket) how is that not playing favourites? <<You'd typically need to stop Cancer way in the early stages>> yeah, and oh boy, if youd read all the *TRUE* stories that i have, about how terminal cancers just up and become recessive OVERNIGHT and noone knows why yet. were not just talking about one person, here. if its really a "MIRICLE" that saved these people from dying horrible awful disgusting yellow deaths from cancer, and GOD did it.. its not allowed. i cannot, and WILL not EVER accept that. and, if GOD really IS like that, and DOES randomly pick people he thinks are cooler and saves their lives, then i hate him, with every fibre of my being. fortunately, im not sure if i believe in a GOD or not, or how he behaves.. which might be very lucky for GOD :P <<She may have been saved more times than you know, day after day>> oh yeah, saved bunches of times just so i could have her die choking and wheezing in my lap when i could do nothing to help her? gee thanks GOD i sure wanna get to know you now, dont i? :P <<now a grown up woman, how much you would trade in your life for - just one day - with her alive and with you again?>> i would give up everything.. up to and including my life. my father KEPT ME AWAY FROM HER and when i came back and gave her a paper crane, SHE DIDNT EVEN KNOW WHAT IT WAS! she didnt even RECOGNIZE me! then she died, and 4 days later, my dad shoved me back in school! of course, i flunked that year, and pretty much every year since, and ive been in summer school, and working, and meanwhile almost 3 years later, i havent even CRIED yet. we were fighting for so long, and i never got the chance to apologize.. and dont give me that crap about "she knows youre sorry because she's been looking down on you from heaven" blah blah because its NOT true, and if it WAS, shes long since given up watching over me in disappointment because shed know i am a total sham and my life isnt even worth bothering with. so there :P

josh>> <> yaaay. <<He prevented some suffering by saving Godiva's little boy, but look at what he caused by not saving Lain's mother>> oooh but it was GODS plan because it "made me a stronger person" uh huh :P

gunjack>> << everyone on earth could have been born from a single pair and THEIR TWO SONS>> then theres the question of cains wifes heritage... and her village.. which might have 64 specimins AND females.. <<Indeed, but here's the crucual difference: we Chruistians never claimed that we could explain and prove everything>> LOL!! i wish i had some of our old ims saved.. and i also wish i knew which "christians" youre referring to.. because i dont think ive ever met any.. and i know a LOT of christians. one of the things that draws people to christianity is precisely BECAUSE it claims to be able to explain and prove everything, duh! <<We accept that there are some things that we simply can't know>> i think you came to THAT realization after MANY long hours of debating, my friend. if you dont think so, i challenge you to walk around your school and ask people "can our christian beliefs explain everything?" yes, thats a dare. <<It's not the unscientific claim, it's the hypocrisy>> and vice-versa, hon.

green baron>> <> geeee.. how did i see THAT coming...? <<born-again bigot boyfriend's>> well.. you have to admit, he IS getting better.. :P <<but it was sold when I was ready to buy it>> wow, you were buying me presents??? *guilty* <<It was at best a misunderstanding. I know what she means>> i know what she means, too.. but that doesnt mean i cant be upset and/or insulted when someone says something like that (obviously) without thinking through what theyve actually said. << St. Mark focuses on the Suffering Servant Messiah role if I remember my religion courses>> ah, maybe thats why i like it more. also, mark was written first, was it not?

gabe>> <<Her view of death is secualr and she is not taking into account the Christian idea of death>> oh wow, THAT makes me feel better.. cause, she being an unbeliever and all, according to YOUR "christian idea of death" shed be burning in hell right now, you moron :P

greg b>> <<I'm an equal oppurtunity offender>> LOL!! i know you are ;)

tony>> <> ppffft! you *ARE* a newbie, aincha ;) <> nah, it picks up sorta after kinda maybeish the first season of gargs.. youll need a basic understanding of TGS, as well as an understanding of the show to follow the new series. <<Its about the same caliber as TGS, I'd recommend it to everyone>> yah, we know.. some of the writers for it post in here and are fans of TGS, too, so it works both ways :) <<you guys and gals and gargs really type a lot>> yeah, we do, dont we.. <<Those of you who are skeptics or critics of Christianity, but are interested in the TRUTH about the faith, please get your hands on a copy of C.S. Lewis �s �Mere Christianity�>> i read the "the problem of pain" (or with pain???) too, but i didnt like his writing style, or reasoning very much. still its worth mentioning that he was a hardcore atheist who converted. <<The book is not �preachy� or �high and mighty�>> sure it is. it assumes a lot that one cannot reasonably assume.. which IS "preachy" and "high and mighty".

josh>> <<I'm having a problem with it requiring 90% of the matter in the universe to be dark matter>> plus the itsy bitsy part about how observations of the universe show the expansion actually speeding up, not slowing down, which is inconsistent with the idea that it will rubber-band intself someday.. <> gunjack should know by now that people NOT raised going to church and singing "jesus loves me, this i know.." DO actually have a different interpretation of that particular piece of literature, because they process it through different filters, even if you read the same translation. <<Maybe there's a proof we haven't discovered yet that order can come from chaos>> and.. whos to say that this "order" thing actually exists? sure, we SEE things as being orderly.. but theyre not so much, glaxies colliding all over the place etc. sure it seems there are laws, but laws dont make order, and nor (it seems) do all things obey these laws, at least not as we know them.
lain
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:08:44 PM
IP: 65.93.74.172

Eh I felt a bit icky on Wednesday. I�ve been working on my Moulin Rouge pic for MGC.

A small and funny story
Had a great dinner last night, Angel hair pasta with shrimp! When I went to get the olive oil I noticed the label of the Extra virgin bottle. On each side of the label were pictures of maids with their legs wrapped around a tree. I�m like �How desperate are these virgins?�

Replies:

Kaito<<<Regarding Catholicism being the only Christianity before Luther, you're wrong
>>>Eeep sorry, but that was all that was taught in my high school World History class.

JacKaL<<<oh, right on then!>>>I got a thing for that Saiyajin prince

Josh<<<Tomorrow I will present it before my steel design class.>>>Good luck<<<I'll kill you. >>>:P<<<He doesn't do anger.>>>He does calm anger.<<>>Mincemeat is minced bits of fruit mixed with sweet spice.<<<Many people smell.>>>Hippys reek<<<Finals at the end of next week, sure,>>>Neener I don�t have finals

Green Baron<<>>Oooh a Kit Kat Bar?<<>>The state tree of Texas is the pecan tree.<<<Does it have a honey filling.>>>No honey<<>>I don�t know either, of course I am blond

Greg X<<<Why thanks J>>>Somehow I knew you would take that as a compliment<<<Henry the VIII is one of my heroes.>>>You want to end up with six wives?

DPH<<<even though it is theoritically impossible to corrupt it.>>>would take a wollup of a spell, but smooth move. No loves spells are going to effect us

Tony<<>>We talk about TGS, Gargoyles, other shows and life in general�I mean if all we ever talked about was TGS then there wouldn�t be a need for a wipe<<>>You might want to read Pendragon since its second season interweaves with Gargoyles�s second season�Time Dancer is also a good read if you want to know about What Brooklyn went through in �Out of Joint� Of course Brooklyn was one of my favorite characters.<<<Another new fan-fic series is in the works: Gargoyles New Legends: Its about the same caliber as TGS, I'd recommend it to everyone>>>It is good, Moon Cat posts here and I�m sure she appreciates the comments.

6. �I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; I will not refuse something I can do.� ~ Helen Keller
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Friday, December 6, 2002 11:14:33 AM
IP: 67.25.53.168

DPH > Re: Mistletoe

Do contractors EVER read the specs given to them? I mean, honestly? ;-)
Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Friday, December 6, 2002 09:57:29 AM
IP: 208.204.155.241

My bad, Imzadi. The right word would be goyeh mothers.

Greg X> Goyim means group of non-Jewish people. I should have said goyeh, which means gentile woman. Now, Imzadi may understand the definition's deeper meaning, that I couldn't get from a Yiddish on-line dictionary :)
Green Baron
Friday, December 6, 2002 06:27:57 AM
IP: 136.216.75.6

I'm finished! Finals at the end of next week, sure, and a paper due monday that's half finished, but no more classes! Final presentation went well and all my assignments are handed in. The next three days will be spent writing and preparing recommendation letters for my three profs.

Lila: <<I'm not sure what YOUR !@#$ life entails>>: No problems here, thanks. I was just generalizing for the whole human race. <<Am I now meaner than you?>>: Not likely. <<Am I now meaner than you? <<but why on EARTH would you??>>: Because its cheaper than a One Ring. <<can't accept that it's written into some large masterplan>>: Well of course you can't. God is a much greater being than you, and you cannot possibly know his thinking.

Gunjack: <>: I just interpret what I read. I read the same Bible that you did (probably). <<Uh, dude? That's exactly what I was saying>>: Oh, sorry. My bad. <<order only comes from Chaos if someone arranges it>>: Maybe only in the way your piddly human brain can understand it. Watchmaker theory comes from assuming that god works the same way we do. Maybe there's a proof we haven't discovered yet that order can come from chaos. <<they can do some AMAZING things with rapidly expanding superhot gas these days>>: In my geological engineering class we've been studying blasting for the last few days 8-) <<if there ARE no recessive "stupid kid" genes, what then?>>: Apparently, people that are genetically similar produce defects when they mate, even if they are both genetically "perfect". They have to be *very* similar (i.e. relatives), but that's exactly what would happen in the Adam/Eve/Cain situation. Even if the first few kids were normal, after a few generations we'd have a human race of retards. <<which I think is cheap>>: I definitely agree. Surely an all-powerful god has better things to do with his time. <<geneological records contain gaps or not>>: That's irrelevant. The geological record contains no gaps. <<and hence irrational>>: I totally agree. <<the theory is still taught and proclaimed as fact with a devotion one might call fanatical>>: You are right. <<Good english, by the way>>: Thanks. I try to not be Ravenes 8-)

Gabriel: <<my other point about Science being furthered by Muslims was to counter your argument that religion is for the feeble-minded>>: Ah, I see. Yeah, I guess I'll retract that.

Kaioto: <<Big Crunch is cute in theory, but it isn't nearly developed enough or proven>>: I'm having a problem with it requiring 90% of the matter in the universe to be dark matter.

Green Baron: <<goyim mothers>>: Schikzah. <<lions, dogs, rats, Baldwins>>: LOL!

Jackal: <<the bible has never stated the age of the earth>>: Um, Genesis: six days. On *this* planet, a day is 24 hours. <<meaning this rock floated for awhile until sumone or sumthing decided to "paint on the canvass">>: Yes, which we've established scientifically. However, that still doesn't answer my question.

Ravenes: No one asked you. If you can't be troubled to read through the CR, then why should we be troubled to email you? You don't have the answers, and you don't know anyone who does. Go away and take your foul typing with you.

DPH: <<how long before a sailor on shore leave buys a winning lottery ticket AND gets struck by lightning the same day he/she discovers that the ticket is a winning one?>>: Who knows. <<Bizzarre compulsive habits according to whom? unusual phobias compared to what?>>: Doesn't matter. If they can be a disadvantage, I'll get rid of them. <<Through exhortion or good pay?>>: Preferably the latter, though I'm not above the former.

Gside: <<All my classes were canceled today>>: I am so jealous. It would have been nice not to sit through 270 minutes of presentations on the same frikkin' building. <<does say we shouldn't throw it out yet>>: But neither should we throw out the god theory. <<What is the problem you have with the statement itself?>>: It was greek to him. <>: Perhaps. <<Tell that to Planck>>: What're his thoughts on the subject? <<Particle physics for evolution?>>: Radiation causing genetic mutation. Interaction of photons with DNA molecules. Particle physics, no? <<Actually theories are unproven>>: Oh, right. Then it is a theory. Law is when its proven, right? <<Who said the most prolific self lover had to be blond?>>: Chris Rock. <<would you have preferred reducing your electric bill to an eighth>>: Huh? <<it doesn't have the nifty display box and cirtificate of authenticity>>: It will when I make one and write one. <>: Oooh oooh aah aah! <>: Actually, turns out I was wrong again. The probability is not zero. Because you could select 2. Classic statistics doesn't really work with infinitely-sized event sets.

Tony: Jeez, post enough times? Oh, and FYI, admins don't delete posts.

65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment.

Josh - [ATkicktothenutsDOTcom]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Friday, December 6, 2002 03:07:13 AM
IP: 64.165.203.13

Sorry about the first 2 goofy looking posts, my last paragraph was getting garbled through the proxy server. ADMIN - could you please delete them?
Tony Elloit - [h664e34@hotmail.com]
Milwaukee, WI, USA
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:59:24 AM
IP: 65.29.134.202

...
Tony Elloit - [h664e34@hotmail.com]
Milwaukee, W
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:55:59 AM
IP: 65.29.134.202

Hey everyone-

This is my first time commenting in this room. I want to say three things:

1) I thought this room was for comments on TGS; not religion, BBC TV, and life in general.... but whatever!

I just found out about TGS last week and have read the first 7 episodes of TGS: Gargoyles - season 1. Thumbs up to the authors; this is good stuff! I know that these stories were written a few years ago, but thanks for keeping the stories posted. (I say that because so many Gargoyles web sites have disappeared from the net - aka, dead links). It looks like a new series, Bad Guys, is in the works and I look forward to it. I just hope that I don't need to read the other 4 series in order to have a background of its plot.

2) Another new fan-fic series is in the works: Gargoyles New Legends
http://members.cox.net/lunafelis/Index.html
Its about the same caliber as TGS, I'd recommend it to everyone.

3)I have not thoroughly read everyone's comments over the past few days (you guys and gals and gargs really type a lot) and I see a lot of talk about Christianity and God / Jesus. Skeptics and critics do not have the right to make judgments about Christianity unless they at least understand (that doesn�t mean that they have to accept or believe in) the fundamentals of the faith.
Those of you who are skeptics or critics of Christianity, but are interested in the TRUTH about the faith, please get your hands on a copy of C.S. Lewis �s �Mere Christianity� . It�s about as long of a read as 6 or 7 TGS episodes, so it will take some time but isn�t too time consuming. C.S. Lewis is the same guy who wrote the Narnia series, eg. �The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe�. The book is not �preachy� or �high and mighty�, but is based on the basic principals of human nature and the universal sense of morality. After reading the book, you may even get some insights as to why we find the conflict between Goliath and Demona is so compelling. Both feel that they are right in their cause of fighting to protect humanity or fighting to annihilate humanity. Both of them have good reasons for what they believe in, but only one is morally correct. We the audience of Gargoyles know that Goliath�s cause is the �good� one because of our built in nature and sense of what�s right; aka, our morals.

Regards,
Anton
Milwaukee, WI, USA
h664e34@hotmail.com
h = 6.64 x 10^-34 <=== Planks Constant: used for calculating the DeBrogle wavelength of particles and for other various quantum physics calculations.

Tony Elloit - [h664e34@hotmail.com]
Milwaukee, WI, USA
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:54:11 AM
IP: 65.29.134.202

Hey everyone-

This is my first, and may be my last comment in this room.

1) I thought this room was for comments on TGS; not religion, BBC TV, and life in general.... but whatever!

I just found out about TGS last week and have read the first 7 episodes of TGS: Gargoyles - season 1. Thumbs up to the authors; this is good stuff! I know that these stories were written a few years ago, but thanks for keeping the stories posted. (I say that because so many Gargoyles web sites have disappeared from the net - aka, dead links). It looks like a new series, Bad Guys, is in the works and I look forward to it. I just hope that I don't need to read the other 4 series in order to have a background of its plot.

2) Another new fan-fic series is in the works: Gargoyles New Legends
http://members.cox.net/lunafelis/Index.html
Its about the same caliber as TGS, I'd recommend it to everyone.

3)I have not thoroughly read everyone's comments over the past few days (you guys and gals and gargs really type a lot) and I see a lot of talk about Christianity and God / Jesus. Skeptics and critics do not have the right to make judgments about Christianity unless they at least understand (that doesnât mean that they have to accept or believe in) the fundamentals of the faith.
Those of you who are skeptics or critics of Christianity, but are interested in the TRUTH about the faith, please get your hands on a copy of C.S. Lewis âs âMere Christianityâ . Itâs about as long of a read as 6 or 7 TGS episodes, so it will take some time but isnât too time consuming. C.S. Lewis is the same guy who wrote the Narnia series, eg. âThe Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobeâ. The book is not âpreachyâ or âhigh and mightyâ, but is based on the basic principals of human nature and the universal sense of morality. After reading the book, you may even get some insights as to why we find the conflict between Goliath and Demona is so compelling. Both feel that they are right in their cause of fighting to protect humanity or fighting to annihilate humanity. Both of them have good reasons for what they believe in, but only one is morally correct. We the audience of Gargoyles know that Goliathâs cause is the âgoodâ one because of our built in nature and sense of whatâs right; aka, our morals.

Regards,
Anton
Milwaukee, WI, USA
h664e34@hotmail.com
h = 6.64 x 10^-34 <=== Planks Constant: used for calculating the DeBrogle wavelength of particles and for other various quantum physics calculations.

Tony Elloit - [h664e34@hotmail.com]
Milwaukee, WI, USA
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:51:43 AM
IP: 209.73.164.50

Hey everyone-

This is my first, and may be my last comment in this room.

1) I thought this room was for comments on TGS; not religion, BBC TV, and life in general.... but whatever!

I just found out about TGS last week and have read the first 7 episodes of TGS: Gargoyles - season 1. Thumbs up to the authors; this is good stuff! I know that these stories were written a few years ago, but thanks for keeping the stories posted. (I say that because so many Gargoyles web sites have disappeared from the net - aka, dead links). It looks like a new series, Bad Guys, is in the works and I look forward to it. I just hope that I don't need to read the other 4 series in order to have a background of its plot.

2) Another new fan-fic series is in the works: Gargoyles New Legends
http://members.cox.net/lunafelis/Index.html
Its about the same caliber as TGS, I'd recommend it to everyone.

3)I have not thoroughly read everyone's comments over the past few days (you guys and gals and gargs really type a lot) and I see a lot of talk about Christianity and God / Jesus. Skeptics and critics do not have the right to make judgments about Christianity unless they at least understand (that doesnât mean that they have to accept or believe in) the fundamentals of the faith.
Those of you who are skeptics or critics of Christianity, but are interested in the TRUTH about the faith, please get your hands on a copy of C.S. Lewis âs âMere Christianityâ . Itâs about as long of a read as 6 or 7 TGS episodes, so it will take some time but isnât too time consuming. C.S. Lewis is the same guy who wrote the Narnia series, eg. âThe Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobeâ. The book is not âpreachyâ or âhigh and mightyâ, but is based on the basic principals of human nature and the universal sense of morality. After reading the book, you may even get some insights as to why we find the conflict between Goliath and Demona is so compelling. Both feel that they are right in their cause of fighting to protect humanity or fighting to annihilate humanity. Both of them have good reasons for what they believe in, but only one is morally correct. We the audience of Gargoyles know that Goliathâs cause is the âgoodâ one because of our built in nature and sense of whatâs right; aka, our morals.

Regards,
Anton (Tony)
Milwaukee, WI, USA
h664e34@hotmail.com
--------
h = 6.64 x 10^-34 <=== Planks Constant: used for calculating the DeBrogle wavelength of particles and for other various quantum physics calculations.

Tony Elloit - [h664e34@hotmail.com]
Milwaukee, WI, USA
Friday, December 6, 2002 01:50:12 AM
IP: 209.73.164.50

All my classes were canceled today. While I was eating lunch, that is. Still went to hand in my homework, then asked my other prof to email me my take home final, due tuesday. I got it, if you were worried.

Gunjack> <<that does little to change the fact that the evidence doesn't support the claims made>>: But it does say that obtaining complete evidence might be nigh impossible to do. Doesn't bode well for the theory, but does say we shouldn't throw it out yet.
<<you assume that your hypothesis is false, and then try to prove that it's true>>: In logic, sometimes it helps to assume it's false then show you did something stupid.
<<When the data stands against you>>: I wouldn't say the evidence is against evolution, so much as in stasis.
<<go back to the drawing board>>: We do have a bunch of people at the drawong board though, don't we? All the rest just said what we have is good enough for me, I'm going to find something more fun to think about.
<<Uh... in english?>>: What is the problem you have with the statement itself?
<<As I understand it, the arguement has always been that with enough TIME, anything can happen>>: And in infinite time, you can still have a good number of things that didn't happen.
<<if the probabilities of an event become so remote that one would never see this thing happen in that frame of time, wouldn't that be a problem?>>: I was under the impression that you were saying that if two things can happen (life and no life), then we should always see a good representation of both. Besides, you're the one saying how stupidly low of a probability randomness has of creating life, so wouldn't it be more unlikely to find many examples?
<<Makes me wanna see the series>>: Those scenes are from the OVAs (and movies). And I know you were looking at Naga sleeping with the slimes.

Imzadi> <<Aleph-zero>>: I thought it was Aleph-null.
<<Every distance you go can be split recursively into infinite subdivisions>>: Tell that to Planck.
<<Together with particle physics, it starts to make sense>>: Particle physics for evolution?
<<Can we call it a theory then?>>: Actually theories are unproven.
<<God could *BE* physics>>: I don't like to think of it that way myself. I like to put in a "the cause of".
<<But you don't have blond hair>>: Who said the most prolific self lover had to be blond?
<<Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge!>>: Not really, more like the innocent, wide eyed, get to play with toys.
<<Is this a genitalia joke?>>: Nope, a divinity joke. Or would you have preferred reducing your electric bill to an eighth.
<<Have they proven/disproven that there are an infinite number of prime numbers?>>: Don't know.
<>: But it doesn't have the nifty display box and cirtificate of authenticity.

Lila> <<why on EARTH would you?>>: It's my preciousssss. It was a birthday present.

Gunjack> <<Who's a Pretty Boy>>: Me. Wait, I don't like prettyboys. Nevermind.

Toku Kaioto> <<The problem stems from the fact that we have no way to document or prove that time is infinite>>: I was talking about the monkeys, not the world.

Imzadi> <<thus your chance of drawing 2 is 1/inf, or 0>>: When figuring out the probability of selecting something at least once in many attempts, don't multiply the chance of selecting it, multiply the chance of not selecting selecting it. Then you'll have the probability of never selecting, to subtract from one, instead of the chance of selecting it every time. The infinite product of (inf - 1)/inf can be reduced to (inf - inf)\inf which is 0/inf, so the chance of drawing it would go to 1. I think.

Ed> <<On verb phrases, no less�>>: VP dominates V' and the object. V' directly dominates V, which directly dominates the word.

Goodnight Irene as performed by The Weavers.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Friday, December 6, 2002 12:33:33 AM
IP: 165.230.240.116

For those of you who have BBC America, "French & Saunders" did a pretty good parody of the LOTR. Camera angles were duplicated almost perfectly and they had pretty good set reproductions.

Replays at 3:00am if anyone wants to set their VCRs
Leo
Thursday, December 5, 2002 11:52:05 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Kaioto - <mutant corrupted holographic mistletoe ...> It ain't corrupted. You did read my specs on why it is theoritically impossible to corrupt Holographic Mistletoe v2.0 and specific directions on how it can NOT be done, right?
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, December 5, 2002 10:27:14 PM
IP: 204.94.193.68

DPH > I disagree with your disagreement. :)

While perhaps my choice of reference to Superman wasn't the perfect means of communication, the reasoning stands that -by this theory - God (being infinitely more powerful that Superman) could in fact pull a Superman routine without having a physical body present in all places at once.

Of course, there would possibly still be skeptics, but it wouldn't alter the fact that prolonged direct exposure to a diety preventing all or even most harm and evil from befalling and being performed by men would basically end free will as we know it.

Hm ... mutant corrupted holographic mistletoe ...
Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Thursday, December 5, 2002 10:05:34 PM
IP: 66.30.158.19

GB > don't worry; I have no real plans to write such a thing. Not because I'm worried about the Masons (heck, by the time it'd be published, there'd only be 15 of the oinky old farts left in the country, at the rate they're kicking off) but because just thinking about it gets me all aggravated.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Thursday, December 5, 2002 09:57:18 PM
IP: 65.239.47.123

Green Baron - <Then how come Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Wesley all recognized Mary's marriage with Joseph
as uncomsummated?> Because they all misinterpreted the bible.

Imzadi - <In infinite random events, the probability of a chosen event approaches one, no matter how unlikely.> Ok, so how long before a sailor on shore leave buys a winning lottery ticket AND gets struck by lightning the same day he/she discovers that the ticket is a winning one? Or has that happenned yet? <64. I will see a competent psychiatrist and get cured of all extremely unusual phobias and bizarre compulsive habits which could prove to be a disadvantage.> Bizzarre compulsive habits according to whom? unusual phobias compared to what? Through exhortion or good pay?

Kaioto - <I mean, seriously, if Jesus or whoever came out of the Great Beyond tomorrow and started up a Superman act that undeniably proved the existance of God in a particular form by saving a bunch of lives on live TV, that would be _the end_ of our world and our free will. There would be no denying it.> I disagree. The conspiracy theorists would have lots of plausible sounging explanations. 2nd, a one Superman act would just make people angry for not choosing *their* location because one physical being can't be everywhere at once and would be fairly useless because he/she would be bound to help out where the presence is *most* needed to optimize time.

Spacebabie - <:::Looks up and notices Christmas themed fey hovering near mistletoe:::> *5 . 4 . 3 . 2 . 1. Holographic Mistletoe v2.0 successfully moved away from fey* Sorry, I'm taking no choices on Holographic Mistletoe v2.0 being corrupted, even though it is theoritically impossible to corrupt it. *Makes mental note to add continous movement of hologram to features of the next version* <Cool can you make Mincemeat?> Let me phrase it this way: I had trouble finding directions for making homemade hashbrowns.

GUnjack - <Do you believe that God doesn't use death and tragedy to his own ends, as well as life and rejoicing?> Ohh, the old hand of providence around us.
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, December 5, 2002 08:52:35 PM
IP: 204.94.193.25

Heh, a strange coincidence after Greg mentioned the extended LOTR film the other day. I got a call this evening from a friend who said that the Queens College theatre was running the extended edition tonight. So I thought, why not, and went. Five hours later and I don't really have time to review it now because I've now got to make up all the work I�d meant to do this evening, which is in for tomorrow. The headline though is: better � especially the first half (the events of the book�s Book 1) which is in patches quite excellent. The second half (Book 2) takes a noticeable nosedive and the ending splutters quite embarrassingly out of control. The film was actually shown with an interval in the middle (presumably when they changed the DVDs around) and I was able to have the very odd experience of thinking in the interval �this actually pretty good; where�s the stuff I remember that was so awful?� and then during the second half thinking �oh yeah � there it is.� I�ll try and stop by tomorrow or over the weekend to do a proper review.

Ravenes: Well I�ve lost track of the discussion too, and I�m not sure I can be bothered to continue anyway because I'm perfectly content in the knowledge that he doesn't exist. The thing with the volcanic eruption theory, incidentally, was that it led to the Sea of Rushes subsiding for a time so that it would have been possible to cross. It was something I read in the paper but I think there's a documentary about it early next year on the BBC. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

Green Baron: I always knew there was something fishy about you � a descendent of Macbeth *and* a covert IRA agent? Tut, tut. ;) But the points you make are bang on. With a manifesto like that, I know if I ever win the lottery it�s going to go towards the �Green Baron buying Northern Ireland� fund. :)

Ack. Stop procrastinating, Ed! 1 a.m. and I�ve still got an essay to do. On verb phrases, no less� fun, fun and more fun.
Ed - [ed@steelclaw.org]
London, England
Thursday, December 5, 2002 08:17:26 PM
IP: 131.111.8.97

Guys please. If u want to descuse God please E-mail me. There are to meny threads I have to go though. If u really want to find the answers please E-mail me and i'll try to answer them or find someone to help me. :):):)
Ravenes - [Dark_Shadow500@hotmail.com]
Thursday, December 5, 2002 06:12:47 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

<<how about how the bible indicates the world to only be thousands of years old, when its really closer to billions>>
the bible has never stated the age of the earth, and who ever says they know the age of the earth should be flogged! LoL
quoting the bible- "the earth was without form... "
meaning this rock floated for awhile until sumone or sumthing decided to "paint on the canvass". Yes, JacKaL knows the bible VERY well.

it is in human nature to f**k ourselves up.
so if there's suffering, diseases, mass murder, atomic energy waiting to set yer ass on fire, who's fault and who's cause is that?
Humans. it's the whole "free will" factor, i mentioned it in my last post.

<<order only comes from Chaos if someone arranges it>>
ahh yes, the grand circle of life. and so in this statement mass murder and unspeakable suffering are proven to be an essential part of human development. and sum ppl think god is the one that's f**ked up! LoL

<>
couldn't agree with ya more! i know the damning book from start to finish, and i say damning b/c it's an accurate account of........ what??? of how human beings interact with each other. well shyt, no wonder it's filled with violence!

<<The bad news...8 inches of the stuff>>
oh, nevermind......

Green Baron- noble. but i love the idea of martyr, after all NOTHING in existence is given meaning until sumone dies for it! so that means there will be more of them to kill! ::just joking.... kinda:: LoL
Jackoff i mean al
Thursday, December 5, 2002 05:19:29 PM
IP: 64.12.96.138

Oh and one more thing. For those out there who think I give Christians a hard time. Well, only in good fun. You should see the way I treat Hassidic Jews. They really ask for it ;)

Before moving to Israel, a friend of mine and I would make fun of them whenever we went into NYC. He did it better cause he knows how to curse in Yiddish. One time, while wewere at the Chelsea Hotel, he was standing on a balcony and started cursing at one in Yiddish, it was funny ;)

Then there's the Muslims, the Pagans, other Atheists, etc. I'm an equal oppurtunity offender. ;)
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, December 5, 2002 03:35:05 PM
IP: 216.179.5.9

SPACEBABIE> <> Why thanks :) <<Lucifer was greedy and power hungry that is why he challenged God.>> I still disagree somewhat. But hey, if you want greedy and power hungry, look at me. ;) <<If anyone in Christian history were tyrants it would be the Catholic Church ((No offense to the cute Catholic Boy, aka Green Baron))>> I'd agree. Same here with the no offense to GB. <<A few years later King Henry the VIII broke away from the Catholic church when he divorced his first wife, and so on and so on.>> Heh heh, I know. Henry the VIII is one of my heroes. I took a personality test a while back to find out which famous historical figure I was and I got good old Henry here.

GB> <>

Which was the point. Really, all I'm usually out to do is amuse. Offensively yes, but still amuse. I have a sense of humor very much in the spirit of "South Park", George Carlin and Kevin Smith. Really, I don't care too much about God or Lucifer either way. Except the Lucifer of the Vertigo comic series, he's just awesome. As is his "girlfriend" Mazikeen. Figured those who know me would get a laugh. Glad to see at least one person did.

I guess you could say, I'm a showman and a trickster at heart.

<<oh you mean the two wannabe Jews with Jewish fathers and goyim mothers ;)>>

Okay, I'm sure this is a stupid question but what's a goyim?

"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes. Like German people." -Mr. Hat "South Park"
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, December 5, 2002 03:29:25 PM
IP: 216.179.5.9

On an odd political note, Senator Strom Thurmond turns 100 today.

Click on my name to read the article.
Ghost of Reverend Attila
Thursday, December 5, 2002 01:14:21 PM
IP: 136.216.75.6

Actually, nevermind about that "all odd numbers and the number 2" example. If you select an infinite amount of times, you'll still have an infinite number of odd numbers to choose from, thus your chance of drawing 2 is 1/inf, or 0. You'll never select 2, no matter how many times you draw. Which is even weirder ;-)

My bad.
Josh
Thursday, December 5, 2002 12:26:41 PM
IP: 64.165.203.13

Green Barron> <<Then how come Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Wesley all recognized Mary's marriage with Joseph as uncomsummated?>>

Cuz they were too scared to commit Catholic Heresy :)
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Thursday, December 5, 2002 11:29:16 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

I have a break. Woohoo!!

Now to comment

Heather> I'm proud of you. You apologized and admitted you made a mistake. We're all human and we err. Don't let it get you down, as they told me in Basic, "Drive on."

I got some stuff for you from Kosovo. I need a box for one present for your mother, and then it should be good to go. I got them from this bazaar. There was a little violin I was going to get for Lain, but it was sold when I was ready to buy it :(

I did get a Gucci 3 piece suit for $120.00, but i doubt it was actually Gucci, though my coworker from Korea couldn't tell, so it was a good quality knock off :)

Spacebabie> I always thought pecan pie was Louisiana special. Does it have a honey filling.

Jaden> Yes, there must have been a bug. I also need to update.

Imzadi> <<And notice how much better we get along now that you don't ;-)>> Yes, though I still think you and GXB are jizz crispies, but in a good way ;)

<<We had a hanukah party today (which reminds me to wish a happy holiday to all three jews in the CR) >>

Three? You, Batya, and Airwalker...oh you mean the two wannabe Jews with Jewish fathers and goyim mothers ;)
Phire_kat> You don't spay your cats? All of my pets are neutered, which is good, as the only males that can live under my mother's roof comfortably are eunechs :)

Spacebabie> <> LOL!! I just laughed out loud when I saw you call him that. I don't know why, but I guess it sounds funny coming from your post.

Hyperion> <<yeah, whatever. Trust me on this, it'll hit you on the back of the head with a large stick when you least expect it. The problem is getting it to last.>> That is the problem, and why I'm so cynical. I don't enjoy getting hurt or worse hurting others in the process, like I did here. On the other hand, I'm going to meet a nice Newfie girl in June right before I visit Lain and go to G03.

As for your religious views, I thought you were an atheist, but I guess I'm mistaken.

<<Yeah, seeing the Nile was like that too. Lots of stuff to see out there. And many cheap suits to buy in Vietnam.>> Cool. I hoep to get a civilian job that allows me those opportunities once I'm out of the Army. Granted, I'm thinking of Homeland Security next, but by then maybe they'll need a GS worker out in the American sector of Occupied Iraq, which will hopefully be Southern Mesopatamia :)

Godiva> Now, I personally do not think God was directly involved with your son being saved and I do not think Satan was out for him, but thanksgiving to God is definitely a good idea, IMO. Maybe put in a donation to a child-related charity out of thanks, too.

Sucks for your husband. I hope he ctaches the Van as often as possible.

Jackal> Personally I don't want us to kill or capture Bin laden, as it woudl benefit his perverse cause. I want him to die fo more natural causes, like running out of air in a cave in, or for his body to fail him. That way, he will not be a martyr.

Lain> <<which he uses to import pornography from thailand and to export small caucasian children he kidnaps and sells into slavery to the thailand mafia.......... >>

The Thailand Mafia headed by Huang Donorio :) Personally I find the average woman from Thailand more attarctive than the average caucasian woman, but that's just me. What's even more attractive is a woman with both lineages, but that's just my personally opinion :)

Hyperion> <<You're afraid the Christian Right is infiltrating the room in little "sleeper posts" and will eventually rise up and burn the webserver because of references to "black magic" in the series?>> LOL!!! That is quite amusing, and I'm a covert IRA agent planning to mail bomb Ed and Silverbolt ;)

Ed> I didn't know thinsg were that bad. If I had the money, I'd purchase Scotland (I am a descendant of MacBeth so I have a line) and the UK would have enough money to keep itself afloat. Granted Scotland's constituents are Labor so the Labor Party won't want to let them go, though I will be King of Scotland, Duke of Edinburgh, Count of Lanark, and Baron of Dykes and Hallhill by then, so it won't matter :)

I'll also buy Northern Ireland for a billion if I have the dough, then I'll have all the IRA tried in Texas, while I send the Orange Order to colonize Antarctica in their summer clothes :)

Lain> <<no, darlin. im afraid of the implications of saying that GOD saved someones little child from being electrocuted because their mother prayed.. because if this is true, it means that GOD DID NOT save all the OTHER little children whos parents pray just as hard. and im sorry, i just cant deal with that one.>> I'd agree. I don't believe in a micro-managing Nancy Pelosi God that saves people from themselves and allows no harm to come. But I think mainly Godiva was greatful. It was at best a misunderstanding. I know what she means.

Lila> <<The catholic church... scandal much? The whole organized form of THAT religion was based around the elimination of competition.>> That's low. The competition had teh same goal. Sadly the leadership in the middle ages lost sight of the true mission and got too secular. That was 500 years ago. Current scandal....5% of the priesthood and mainly in New England were at fault. Yes, one pedophile priest is one too many, though sexual abuse is to expected from a state that has elected Ted Kennedy to the Senate for the last 42 years :)

<<to put my faith in evolution, not some big warm fuzzy daddy-wanna-be in the sky.>> I beleive in evolution, too, for the record. As you are Jewish, I am truly sorry for what my faith did to your fellow people. Judiasm is the older brother of Catholicism and I am appalled that it ever happened. In fact, I feel a very strong devotion to an ancient Jewish mother and consider her to be my own mother in spirit.

Greg X> I should be shocked or dismayed by your view, but as it comes from you, I am amused.

As for organized religion, the disorganized ones are far worse. They are thr bredding grounds for men like Falwell, Robertson, Chick, Bob Jones, Jimmy Swaggart, and Jesse Jackson.

Two Creation stroies> Yep, there are. One has the seven days (which St. Augustine theorizes may not be consecutive) and the non-sentient animals (lions, dogs, rats, Baldwins). The second story is about (hu)man created first followed by the creation of animals. I do not beleive these stories to be literally true, but I see a certain element of truth in these Hebrew Creation poems. I belive that such things like Evlution and Dinosaurs are in the Bible, because people wouldn't understand what God was telling them. I also believe some of the possessed people Jesus cured were schizophrenics (and I beleive some were genuinely possessed), but if Jesus said he was schizophrenic, he'd be crucified a lot sooner.

Raveness> My religion teacher said that there were natural phonemena in Egypt that can account for the plagues. That doesn't diminsh their significance to me, as the timing was incredible.

Mooncat> You know Hebrew? Impressive. I'm trying to self-teach myself Latin, but I've been too lazy to do it in a while. I remember a few prayers and soem other HS stuff.

Christine> An expose on the Masons....I wouldn't advise it as I like you and I want you around for a few more decades. I doubt the Masons would care for one revealing too much. I recally Jack the Ripper was one.

Raveness>> <<Meaning I guess that if u beleave the Bible and in Jesus u will go to Heaven.>> I imagine that people who believe both are in Hell ::coughcoughOliverCromwellcoughcough:: and most are in Purgatory.

Lain> St. Mark has a different view of Jesus than St. John. St. Mark focuses on the Suffering Servant Messiah role if I remember my religion courses. St. John focuses on the divine role much more than the synoptic gospels. St. Luke is my favorite of the writers. He has teh Jesus that sticks up for all teh people that are treated as second class by society.

Lila> <<Is questioning authority evil? (Before you answer, think the facist authority of the Nazi party.)>> No, if it is done for the right reasons. In fact, authoprity shoudl always be questioned for clarification purposes, but not out of hubris.
<<Are religious texts to be taken literally in all their many translations?>> No. I don't believe in fundamentalism.

<<When different translations contradict each other... which is right?>> Deeper study can reveal more in any case.

Spacebabie> <<If anyone in Christian history were tyrants it would be the Catholic Church ((No offense to the cute Catholic Boy, aka Green Baron))>> Not so. Orthodox Christianity existed before then. Martin Luther was protected by teh German princes who wanted thier own faith to control and not bow to the Holy Roman Empire. Henry VIII at first condmened Luther and as soon as he didn't get his marriage to Catherine of Aragon anuled (he never sought a divorce), he declared his own Church and executed the heroic St. Thomas Moore for not bowing and scraping to his obese form.

John Calvin ruled Geneva with an iron fist like a Taliban warlord.

Oliver Cromwell ruled England like Ayatollah Kohmenei ruled Iran and slaughtered thousands of Irish and English Catholcis, along with Anglicans that did not adhere to his mirthless Calvinism.

Tyranny is not exclusively Catholic. They had a monopoly on it, but after the Reformation, they all got to do the wrong thing.

Hyperion> <> Yep, yep. It was St. John, not Jesus's brother Pedro who took care of Mary.

Gabriel> <<According to the Bible, Mary "got to know Joseph" after Jesus and had kids>>

Then how come Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Wesley all recognized Mary's marriage with Joseph as uncomsummated?

Now I'm off. Good night and yes, I am posting in purple for a reason, and yes it is religious :)
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Camp Bondsteel, Kosovo
Thursday, December 5, 2002 11:25:55 AM
IP: 136.216.75.6

Gside > The problem stems from the fact that we have no way to document or prove that time is infinite, and infinate space has absolutely no impact on the problem other than the fact that universal expansion could actually further limit the window of opportunity for any specific combination of factors.

Further, what the heck happens when two super-massive black holes colide? Singularities screw most of these recursion-loop theories completely. Infinite recursion loop of Big Bang, Big Crunch is cute in theory, but it isn't nearly developed enough or proven to be acceptable as a justification for believing their are an infinite set of chances to randomly assemble an indentical universe.

Basically, if the window of opportunity to configure this universe in its exact form is / was unique and finite, even in an infinite timeline, then you have Zero infinite factors and the probability never approaches anywhere _near_ 0.000000000001 of a percent.

And space-time is extremely messy, highly speculative theoretical physics. :)
Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Thursday, December 5, 2002 10:14:46 AM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Gunjack> <<Not to diss you, but I think most people don't actually have a clue of what the Bible actually says God is. >>

Amen to that!

Josh> My whole point about death is that God "not saving someone from death" isn't horrid when peopel stop and think about it. Yes, it's horrid that we can't see whoever anymore, but we should also rejoice since they are with God now.

She (Lain) reiterates that it is so cruel that someone dies while God saves someone else. I keep trying to say that just because someone's life is not saved by God doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing. Not only that, but that God who lets someone dies and aother live makes this a cruel God. Her view of death is secualr and she is not taking into account the Christian idea of death.

Also, my other point about Science being furthered by Muslims was to counter your argument that religion is for the feeble-minded. Last time I checked, modern physics (not contemporary) was invented by a Christian (Newton).
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Thursday, December 5, 2002 09:59:49 AM
IP: 129.120.255.198

**Niamhgold enters briefly**

It's not often we get cancellations for SNOW DAYS here at MICA. The bad news...8 inches of the stuff! The good? NO CLASSES AND NO HUGE PROJECT DUE FOR ANOTHER WEEK!

Wheeeee!

Adios!
Niamhgold
Thursday, December 5, 2002 08:54:04 AM
IP: 206.41.199.3

Just a few posts for now.

Jesus' brother> They find a coffin with this claim...and I bet all of the pieces they find of Noah's Ark are real, too. I am not convinced it is more than a hoax. I doubt anyone beyond the unwashed followers of Jack Chick and Bob Jones are that quick to take it as gospel truth.

Gunjack> So Catholics aren't Christian...thanks for telling me :p Bigot!!

Lain> I took it as a joke. I think Kaioto was commenting more on Spacebabie's comment or your born-again bigot boyfriend's.

More comments later.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Camp Bondsteel, Kosovo
Thursday, December 5, 2002 06:53:28 AM
IP: 136.216.75.6

Lila - real responce tomorrow, but could you explain which two creation accounts you mean?
V
Thursday, December 5, 2002 04:51:26 AM
IP: 192.133.129.164

Josh><<That makes sense. I guess I *could* believe that there is a god (though I don't currently)...but I don't think that he exists in the Bible sense.>> ...Not to diss you, but I think most people don't actually have a clue of what the Bible actually says God is.
<<Just because they were atheists doesn't make atheism invalid. Ever heard of Bin Laden? Do his actions invalidate god? I think not.>> Uh, dude? That's exactly what I was saying. She was arguing that the evil actions of Christians prove that God is a sicko. I was just pointing out that ANY philosophy is going to have its bad apples.
<<You ignored my response to this, I see.>> Ah, but your responce assumed a Creator. order only comes from Chaos if someone arranges it.
...Though you're right; they can do some AMAZING things with rapidly expanding superhot gas these days... 8D
<<Oh really? Explain to me how everyone on earth could have been born from a single pair and THEIR TWO SONS. 64 specimens are required to create a stable genetic pool, not to mention *females*.>> What, me? Exlain THAT? ...Okay, sure, I'll take a stab at it. Keep in mind that I know jack about genetics...
...But the reason you need diversity is because inbreeding causes recessive genes to move to the fore, yes? Then you end up with idiot kids. But if there ARE no recessive "stupid kid" genes, what then? If God makes two people with perfectly clean genetics, couldn't they reproduce like freaking rabbits without having to worry about genetic consequences? In that case, by the time mutation and such build up to the point of making inbreeding a problem, it's no longer nescessary. The genetic decline might also explain the gradual decrease in lifespan that you see in the genealogies.
<<Or how about how the bible indicates the world to only be thousands of years old, when its really closer to billions? Granted, it may be an interpretation, but that's a pretty wild removal from reality.>> Aside from the "created to look that way" arguement (which I think is cheap), there's also the question of how much time passes while God "hovers over the Deep", and whether or not those six days are actual 24-hour periods, and whether the geneological records contain gaps or not.
<<First, you don't know what science cannot explain, because you're not immortal.>> Touche. But then, YOU don't know what science can do, either. My point is that believing that science can expain everything, when there are things that it absolutely cannot explain or even begin to describe, is a statement of blind faith, and hence irrational.
<<True, and in fact it supports it the same way the god argument does: "you can't prove my claim untrue because the evidence that would prove it true was destroyed!">> Indeed, but here's the crucual difference: we Chruistians never claimed that we could explain and prove everything. We accept that there are some things that we simply can't know. You scientists, on the other hand, claim the opposite and mock us for our superstition even while you're breaking your own rules. THAT is what irritates me. It's not the unscientific claim, it's the hypocrisy.
<<Maybe at this point it would be better to call it a hypothesis. But suppose we find the fossil evidence you're referring to. Can we call it a theory then? Can we say its based on testable evidence? If not, then when?>> If the evidence supports the hypothesis, then certianly! Evolution might make sense, and if solid evidence is presented for it, I'll accept it and adjust my worldview accordingly. But that evidence has NOT been presented, and the theory is still taught and proclaimed as fact with a devotion one might call fanatical.

Good english, by the way. Will respond later.
Gunjack "Who's a Pretty Boy" Valentine
Thursday, December 5, 2002 04:48:15 AM
IP: 192.133.129.164

Look what a simple survival story spurred.
Excellent topic for discussion... but I agree that it is one that can't be brought to a more mutually agreeable conclusion than "Believe what you want, cuz in the end, you're ideas are what's right for you, or at least, I can't convince you otherwise". How cliche. Gag me.

REPLIES:
GSIDE-<Actually, most of the fossil record comes in chunks, so most of the steps between species are pretty big jumps. It's still pretty convincing to see things like the progress of the horse.> Granted... and more evidence is being found every year.

IMZADI-<Yeah, you'd think he'd let us !@#$ for longer> heh, I'm not sure what YOUR !@#$ life entails... ;-)< But evolution only works because god said so!> Yes. Because I say so. D*mn straight.<<<She's also much more civil than most of the people who're going to respond to you. Lila, for example>>: You could have used me for an example :-( I outright called her an idiot!> Am I now meaner than you? ::pats self on back:: Must be time to whip out the big guns, hmm? I'm just glad we're berating the same person. Infinity, lovely little mind boggling concept. And "word" to everything else you said, eloquently taking my arguments. Except for yes, but why on EARTH would you???

Any other highly heated debates to commence, folks? This one grows old...
-Lila

GUNJACK- ::bows head in shame:: I didn't proof read. My bad. I noticed the errors after posting... felt like a moron. Thanks for pointin' it out for me, though, ;-) at least I had a segue to appologize for my oversight. I do not, however, appologize for my stated opinions or reasoning. I appreciate the way in which you argued my points, though. Counterexamples, etc. instead of simply saying "I'm right, and I have the faith to know it's simply so." Mad props for that.
<Here's a telling question: have you ever encountered a devout Christian who you DIDN'T consider a bigot?> Yes, actually. Those who debate based on fact instead of faith, who are willing to admit certain holes in their story, or cover for such by saying it's based on interpretation, or better... are converted to agnostics. ;-) In conclusion, you're harsh. You rock.

HYPERION: <Or God is operating on a vast plan of some sort that we cannot comprehend. Hell, we can predict the weather on this planet; and some people think we should know what God intends with the universe? Interesting use of hubris there.> Heh, hubris. If your grandscale plan theory is true, then I take exception to his use of means to an undisclosed and therefor possibly undesireable (for ME) end. I have issues with the amounts of undeserved suffering in the world, and don't can't accept that it's written into some large masterplan.

<To the extent that they are written literally, yes. It would be rather foolish to attempt to take poetry literally.> Word. Can you explain something for me? In Genesis, it gives two contradictory versions of the creation story... is that to be taken literally?

Lila
L.A.
Thursday, December 5, 2002 03:47:03 AM
IP: 134.173.121.83

Mostly working today on my project, which is now finished. Tomorrow I will present it before my steel design class. And it will be identical to all of theirs.

***INFINITY***

I wanted to rant about this, mostly because some people don't grasp it, but also because its fun to noodle over. If I'm wrong, feel free to call shenanigans. I'm basing this on my years of physics, math, and a course or two on number theory. It demonstrates nothing of intelligence in the same way that Lain/Hyperion's nitrogen volcanos on triton demonstrates intelligence: i.e. interesting to know, but not only does no one care, it won't even help you in a career.

There are actually multiple types of infinity, but for my purpose there are two types: countable and uncountable (also known as Aleph-zero and Aleph-one). That one threw me for a loop the first time...how can you count infinity?

An example of countable infinity would be the set of whole numbers: 1, 2, 3... We call it countable because we can say "this is the first one, this is the second one..." and so on. We'd be counting forever, but we can count them. Can't do that with irrational numbers because there are numbers in between every two numbers, no matter how close together.

Space is the uncountable type. Every distance you go can be split recursively into infinite subdivisions, because points in space are infinitesimally small. For example, there are just as many numbers (irrational as they may be) between 1 and 1.01 as there are between 20 and 412.8. Weird, ain't it?

When you subtract an infinite number of elements from an infinite set, you have an infinite set. If I take all the numbers between 1 and 1.01 (an infinite uncountable set) from the whole set of irrational numbers, we're still left with an infinite number of irrational numbers. Cool, huh?

Imagine it like this: you're on a road. To your left, you don't see the end of the road. To your right, you don't see the end of the road. No matter how far you walk to the right, you still don't see the end. No matter how far you walk to the left, you still don't see the end. You are in the center, and no matter how far you walk in either direction, you will always be in the center, because there are infinite number of points on either side of you. You can't even be picked up and magically placed at the 1/4 marker (god arguments notwithstanding), because there is no such division! No matter where you go, there are an equal number of points on either side of you (such defines the center).

In infinite random events, the probability of a chosen event approaches one, no matter how unlikely. For example, lets say we have a set which includes all the odd numbers and the number 2. Even though there are an infinite number of odd numbers to choose from, if you keep drawing forever, you'll eventually draw the number 2. If you walk into a casino an infinite number of times, you'll hit a string of jackpots that will make you very rich, even if the casino cheats (assuming they're truly random).

And no, I am not stoned.

***END INFINITY***

Fire Storm: <<can anyone get to Jack>>: Sorry, I don't know Jack. 8-)

Gunjack: <<You'd be suprised>>: I suppose its in as much doubt as the existence of the holocaust, i.e. a bunch of nuts screaming that it didn't happen and its a conspiracy by *insert religion*. <<tell her the "Let there be light!" one! That one's so cool>>: Maxwell's equations? <<She's also much more civil than most of the people who're going to respond to you. Lila, for example>>: You could have used me for an example :-( I outright called her an idiot! <<Oh, geez>>: Well, his opinion makes as much sense as most of the interpretations I've heard/read of any book I've read in an english class. Unfortunately, its quite obvious that the writers of the bible did NOT have that message in mind when they wrote it... <<Do you believe that God doesn't use death and tragedy to his own ends, as well as life and rejoicing?>>: And if not, did she read the same bible that I did? <<He seems little more than a charicature, a straw-god. Maybe this is why you find him so easy to dismiss?>>: That makes sense. I guess I *could* believe that there is a god (though I don't currently)...but I don't think that he exists in the Bible sense. <<Look up Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Ho Chi Minh. Heard of them?>>: Just because they were atheists doesn't make atheism invalid. Ever heard of Bin Laden? Do his actions invalidate god? I think not. <<order does not come out of chaos>>: True. Unfortunately, the world is far more chaotic than we recognize, and in the beginning, if there was nothing, that was order. Ordered nothing. <<When you blow up a house, you get a mess, not a stienway grand>>: You ignored my response to this, I see. <>: By themselves, no. Together with particle physics, it starts to make sense. <<The vastly expanded fossil record fails to show ANY clear instances of a Link>>: We discover new LIVING species every day, do you think we don't ever discover any new dead ones? <<manages to escape without a SINGLE HISTORICAL INACCURACY>>: Oh really? Explain to me how everyone on earth could have been born from a single pair and THEIR TWO SONS. 64 specimens are required to create a stable genetic pool, not to mention *females*. Or how about how the bible indicates the world to only be thousands of years old, when its really closer to billions? Granted, it may be an interpretation, but that's a pretty wild removal from reality. <<arguably, just as irrational>>: True. <<You just stated one thing that science absolutely CANNOT explain: the prime mover>>: First, you don't know what science cannot explain, because you're not immortal. Science could make great leaps and bounds long after you croak. It could even explain everything. If there is a god, science might develop a way to reliably communicate with him and really find out the answers to all this stuff, even if it is "gravity works because of magic". <>: Um, I've NEVER heard that. Every astrophysicist I know says the odds that we're unique are next to zero. <<Any comment?>>: What are the odds that I didn't have a comment? ;-) <<that does little to change the fact that the evidence doesn't support the claims made>>: True, and in fact it supports it the same way the god argument does: "you can't prove my claim untrue because the evidence that would prove it true was destroyed!" <<You do NOT explain away the evidence and declare victory>>: Both the god side and the secular side are guilt of this. <<theory of evolution is SUPPOSED to be a scientific theory>>: Maybe at this point it would be better to call it a hypothesis. But suppose we find the fossil evidence you're referring to. Can we call it a theory then? Can we say its based on testable evidence? If not, then when? <<we have a rough idea of how long Chaos has had to work, yes?>>: We think its between 12 and 18 billion years old. <<if the probabilities of an event become so remote that one would never see this thing happen in that frame of time, wouldn't that be a problem?>>: Yes, but you've overlooked something. We can't possibly look at everything anytime soon. We'll spend the rest of existence finding new things among the stars, because compared to our frame of reference the universe is infinite (whether it actually is or not). Even if we never find another earth-like planet (note that we have found OTHER planets that orbit other stars), its still possible that many more exist out there, where we just never got a chance to look. <<Uh... in english?>>: That's funny. I typed up that little essay earlier before you posted this.

Todd: <<they were portrayed as almost indistinguishable from each other, both equally immature>>: They left out a huge section of the story, like the 20 years or so between when Bilbo leaves the Shire and when Frodo leaves the shire. So the characters behave like children, because they are portrayed as such.

Gabriel: <<Why do Christians waste their breath>>: Because they believe, and I find it admirable. Just because the watchmaker theory is a flawed logical argument doesn't mean I'm right or they're right. It just means that proof must come from somewhere else. <<Science is for those who are too scared to think non-empirically>>: Okay, sure. But I'm not scared to think non-empirically. I just do, because its the way my mind works. If, in the end, the grand explanation is "magic", then I'll accept that and ask Santa for a new pair of shades. <<let's not forget the fact that Muslims did a lot to further the sciences>>: So what? Christians also did a lot to further the sciences. So did the Greeks. Egyptians too. And they all had a different mythos. So you've basically stated that you can be a scientist and still believe in god. Mazel Tov. Most scientists (I think the statistic is like 70%) ascribe to a real, recognized religion, and more recognize a higher being of some sort. However, this is a belief, and does not prove or disprove the existence of such a higher being. In fact, we could even argue that science is the search for a higher being. When we reach the end, that is to say "we can't explain this, and physics limits our ability to explain it in the future", then we can say that we've found god. He's in the details ;-)

Spacebabie: <<Oh and Josh? Neener Neener Neener>>: I'll kill you. <<not bad, I was thinking of Cary Elwes and Revel thought of Jude Law>>: Definitely not Elwes. He doesn't do anger. <<can you make Mincemeat?>>: I make mincemeat all the time out of my little brother... <<I�m not touching that one>>: Good call. Didn't see that one. <<Was it worth the savage rampant pushy soccer moms?>>: There weren't any in the lego store. <>: Many people smell.

Hyperion: <<albeit a candy store where you get nailed with a cattle prod if you don't have exact change for that last M&M>>: LOL! <<was it sheer dumb luck, the will of a divine being, or that persons innate desire to live?>>: Or nifty physics. <<I'm not aware of any records of any flood that wiped out most of humanity>>: Actually, we've discovered evidence of a large flood in the Tigris-Euphrates area a few thousand years ago. From the perspective of the writers of the bible, this could be seen as "wiping out humanity". <<is god so insecure that he needs people running around saying "Yay, God" when all he has to do is look out over his creation and think, "Damn, I'm good.">>: Good question. And if so, is that really the kind of god we want to worship? <<the consequence of this thought is that it makes all life irrelevant>>: Which kind of explains my moral outlook. <<are all then equivalent, morally speaking?>>: Technically, yes. But in society we place a different value on some chemical reactions than on others. Society has its own moral code. And morals or not, it doesn't change how we *feel* when a certain set of reactions are ended: when someone dies, when we fall in love, etc. But just because something makes you feel bad doesn't make it objectively wrong. <<isn�t it also true that the secular theory ends with the equally unenlightening statement "because of probability"?>>: Yes, and God could be the cause of probability. Or even more enlightening, God could *BE* probability. God could *BE* physics. God could *BE* the G.U.T. (grand unified theory). <<we can predict the weather on this planet>>: Just not very well. <>: Well, that too. <<neither does it automatically result in no injury either>>: True, but it doesn't mean the kid *should have* died. <<Damn thing seems to go off earlier and earlier>>: I thought it gets easier to wake up as you get older? <<You'd be surprised at what you can get in Pittsburgh>>: Smoke? <<Suck it, Tre-beck>>: LOL. <<about to change, sonny-boy>>: Great. Now find me.

Kaioto: <<it also requires infinity matter and energy, which the universe, according to Science, does not have>>: No. It requires a lot more matter than we think currently exists, but we have theories about that, too 8-) <<you lack the infinite monkeys and type-writers>>: Obviously you've never been to Microsoft Headquarters.

Lain: <<just because "stuff happens" doesnt necessarily mean there is no GOD, it just means GOD has better stuff to do than muck around saving us from the bad decisions *we* make using that whole "free will" thing he supposedly gave us>>: I definitely agree with that.

Gabriel: <<the secular concept of life ends in the graveyard; the Christian concept of life extends into the after-life. Your not seeing this>>: No, you're not seeing what Lain is saying. God caused a LOT of suffering by not saving someone's *physical* life. That is a bad thing to do. He prevented some suffering by saving Godiva's little boy, but look at what he caused by not saving Lain's mother.

Gside: <<he may have just used me for inspiration>>: But you don't have blond hair. <<The problem is making sure there is a path of lesser resistance>>: True. I wish I remembered the lectures from E&M on circuitry. If I did, I'd wish I remembered how to solve those problems ;-) <<Did you get to fire the torpedo?>>: Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge! <<Did he make wine come from your plumbing?>>: Is this a genitalia joke? <<there are enough difference between each of the steps to make us wish we had more of the halfways>>: The mammals, yes. Not the birds. <<But 50 minutes to respond to me?>>: I try to catch a response to you before I post, which is sometime before I go to bed. If you hadn't posted, I'd just have posted when I went to sleep, around midnight my time. Plus, I wanted to get my god comments in before an admin forced us to shut up ;-) <<You can easily construct an infinite set of integers that contain only one odd number>>: True. But I was arguing that this infinite set would have all things. Have they proven/disproven that there are an infinite number of prime numbers? <<an official One Ring costs around $400?>>: I can pick up a wedding band for less than that and have it inscribed.

And with that, I leave you.

64. I will see a competent psychiatrist and get cured of all extremely unusual phobias and bizarre compulsive habits which could prove to be a disadvantage.

Josh - [ATkicktothenutsDOTcom]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Thursday, December 5, 2002 02:21:45 AM
IP: 64.165.203.13

For those interested I'm going to be selling a Gargoyles "The Movie" The Heroes Awaken w/ bonus interactive game on ebay this week.Check it out!!!
Jami - [ajmadlil@yahoo.com]
*******, **, USA
Thursday, December 5, 2002 02:00:31 AM
IP: 63.187.129.236

Gside><<But there are also rather large gaps in the times between environments condusive to fossil preservation, are there not?>> Oh, certianly, but that does little to change the fact that the evidence doesn't support the claims made. In statistics, at least, they taught me that you assume that your hypothesis is false, and then try to prove that it's true. When the data stands against you, you admit that you can't prove it, and go back to the drawing board. You do NOT explain away the evidence and declare victory. The latter is what evolution's proponents have done, and it seems patently irrational to me. And yet, if a school says that evolution is an unproven theory, Stephen J. Gould calls them irrational zealots in Newsweek. Funny how that works, no?

The theory of evolution is SUPPOSED to be a scientific theory. Therefore, it is SUPPOSED to stand on testable evidence, and not on supposition. Coming up with a plausable explanation for how something COULD have happened is not a testable evidence, and yet the vast majority of scientists and commentators pretend that it is. Why? I would argue that it's their faith in science that muddies the waters. They believe that science should explain all things, but they are faced with a question which they have no hope of cracking any time soon. Rather than admit ignorance, they accept a shoddy answer as better than nothing at all. And then they have the gall to brand those who disagree as "unscientific". In any case, the evidence is not there. Perhaps the theory is plausible (I still doubt it on grounds of irreducible complexity), but it is not proven, and there are no grounds to sneer at those who doubt it.

<<Not all infinite sets contain all things. You can easily construct an infinite set of integers that contain only one odd number.>> Uh... in english? As I understand it, the arguement has always been that with enough TIME, anything can happen. Well, we have a rough idea of how long Chaos has had to work, yes? And if the probabilities of an event become so remote that one would never see this thing happen in that frame of time, wouldn't that be a problem?
<<But she seems much bigger to me. Ever seen the Slayers video?>> Oh, HECK yes. Makes me wanna see the series.
Gunjack "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" Valentine
Thursday, December 5, 2002 01:57:47 AM
IP: 192.133.129.164

Imzadi> <<Actually he does>>: Only in passing. He was signing autographs for someone else. Now Jason Mewes knows me better, and he may have just used me for inspiration.
<<electricity will take the path of least resistance>>: The problem is making sure there is a path of lesser resistance.
<<Your father has been confused for Bon Jovi?>>: No, my father confused/weirded out Bon Jovi. It was around when U571 came out, and he had come to pick up his kid from school. My father was on crossing guard duty, and said he heard Bon Jovi was in a new submarine movie and he had one question for him, "Did you get to fire the torpedo?" Bon Jovi kind of sidled away from him at that point.
<<Can you explain this apparent contradiction?>>: Sorry, I didn't want to use "believe" too much. The first statement should have been more like, What one believe is the truth may be the truth.
<<How about a man walking around my apartment yesterday?>>: Did he make wine come from your plumbing?
<<We can trace dinosaurs to both birds and mammals>>: But there are enough difference between each of the steps to make us wish we had more of the halfways.
<>: Nice to know I'm loved. But 50 minutes to respond to me?

Fire Storm> <<can anyone get to Jack?>>: I've heard Keenspace is updating this week, so that might be a trouble.
<>: Semi weekly. Unless you read the archives constantly.

Gunjack> <<broken by huge gaps: exactly the opposite of what the theory indicated>>: But there are also rather large gaps in the times between environments condusive to fossil preservation, are there not?
<<the current theory is that our earth is completely one of a kind, which would indicate that the probabilities have run clear off the map>>: Not all infinite sets contain all things. You can easily construct an infinite set of integers that contain only one odd number.
<<She's Actual Size>>: But she seems much bigger to me. Ever seen the Slayers video?

Did you know an official One Ring costs around $400?

Spacebabie> <<It�s from my Words of Courage pocket book>>: Eh, it was mostly a knee jerk reaction.

Hyperion> <<Did they ever do anything but "Down on the corner" and "Bad Moon Rising"?>>: Yup. Proud Mary, Fortunate Son, Lodi, Green River, and some more minor ones. Look for the CD Chronicle.
<<neither does it automatically result in no injury either>>: No one has said no injury happened.

Kaioto> <<That makes the odds much steeper of ever getting Shakespeare>>: As long as there is one infinite, the probability approaches one.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Thursday, December 5, 2002 01:06:39 AM
IP: 165.230.240.116

Fiona Seckari:<<Gargoyles Screen Shots>>

The German Gargoyles Fan Site has an extensive collection (4000+) of screen grabs from almost every episode. They are a bit small, only 320x240 though some from "The Mirror" are bigger. You don't need to worry about understanding the German since they are listed by episode number.

Leo - [<Click here for Garg screenshots]
Thursday, December 5, 2002 12:14:03 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

<<Not really, although I am a big fan of Vegeta�s family>>
oh, right on then!

JacKaL on God.....
do i believe? yes i do. i also believe in the power of the goddess. and having said that, i know i lost half of you cause ur like "he's a f**kin confused dumb ass!"
but just hear me out, what do you have to loose other than 5 minutes of ur tyme? i believe in the christian god and lucifer. do i believe these beings will go completey outta their way just to hurt or help you? No. that's what their "henchmen" are for, and half of that tyme you were justing running on luck. very rarely thruout the history of all tyme have any of these beings had any direct involvement with human kind. notice i said the word, "direct".
most everything has been a mere suggestion. that way it is ur choice if you wanna do right or not. hence, "free will".

for example the ten commandments. not demandments... god stated 5 things that would please him, and stated 5 things that would royally piss him off. if you did the things that pleased him and didn't do anything to piss him off, then, there was an option of getting into heaven. why did i say option? b/c that was one suggestion to go to heaven. if you didn't go by god's suggestion, then you f**king went to hell. so just b/c it was a suggestion did not mean there wouldn't be repercussions for not following them. sounds f**ked up right?

no, not all. here's an example- it's a suggestion that you wear a condom, it's a suggestion that you pop a pill to not get pregnant. if you don't follow those suggestions then what could happen? you get a f**king disease, you get f**kin pregnant. so b/c god would rather be doing sumthing more interesting than holding ur hand thruout life, he offers you suggestions on how to make ur life better. follow them or not. face the repercussions or not. and b/c you are a human being you are going to bitch about everything in ur life. and god knows this. which is why he don't hold ur hand thruout life b/c if he did, what would we say?

where the f**k is my free will? and alot of understanding god will come once you TRUELY realize that he is not one sided. oh god is all out love and peace... excuse me, but who was the dumb ass that made that up?! and either alot of christians don't know this or don't wanna except it (which is why i laugh at them when they talk about how stupid islamic extremist are), god himself has proven to you that he wants to rule everything. he is the god love, he is the god of peace, he is the god of war, death, hate, revenge, he is the god of f**k! and speaking of f**k, peel ur eyes open self proclaimed christians, Solomon's Song is about SEX!!! AND there is more gods than him, and more power out there than his. for the lord thy god is a jealous god, and why should he be jealous if he is the only one?

it's probable that the goddess is on equal footing with him. witchcraft was 1st mentioned the book of genesis. although certain practicions may only be a century old or whatever, the idea of the goddess has been around... now the goddess is of the earth, we live on the earth, meaning she has the ability to interact with us more so than sumone whose in the heavens. god, being the jealous one that he is, *promises* unspeakable damnation for the "crime" of witchcraft. hmm, why is he soo sensitive about that subject?

i'm gonna stop here cause i can talk about this stuff for countless hours, point is, i believe in the christian god, i don't believe in christianity itself, i believe in multiple deities that govern the earth and the heavens. i choose to follow only one, if i'm wrong in the end what's that matter? i followed a suggestion and have tried to show my loyalty. and isn't that all that really matters, even if you don't believe in these things. love and loyalty is all that is going to matter when are dead.
stEphEn aka JacKaL - [happier person now that i have stitch!!]
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 10:18:39 PM
IP: 152.163.189.68

Fiona Seckari> ya. S8.org. Theres alittle Gargoyle symble on the main page. Theres pics there.
Ravenes
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 09:35:48 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

ANYBODY KNOW WHERE I CAN GET GARGOYLES SCREEN SHOTS?

Sorry for all the caps, I thought that it would be the only way to get any attention -_0;; Please E~mail if you know!
Fiona Seckari - [fionaseckari1@aol.com]
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 08:18:37 PM
IP: 64.12.96.138

Lady Mystic - I just sent you a PRIVATE email; please read and reply to it privately at your convience.
DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 07:44:42 PM
IP: 204.94.193.35

Lila> I DO think! Josh, others. I don't want all this... Look. If u want me to respond PLEASE E-mail me. Dark_Shadow500@hotmail.com. And I can back up my stuff.
Ravenes
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 06:24:54 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

Lain> I think I'd have a hard time regarding dealing with this sort of stuff, if I switched lives with you, honestly. That you continue to think, work, and progress i the wake of all the stuff you've had to go through is admirable. I know it might not mean much to you, but I hold a confidence that you'll see your mother again.

I don't follow your logic on the issue of saving one person but not another, though. Even an omnipotent being would still have to deal with cause and effect in terms of action and inaction. I think that the possibility of divine intervention is seriously limited by free will.

Harold S. Kushner wrote a book: "When bad things happen to good people" and Elie Wiesel wrote about his experiences as a Holocaust victim and survivor in the book "Night." Both found that such suffering as the Holocaust would typically kill even the most faithful person's faith in God, but found spiritual growth and new understanding in coming to grips with a God who simply _can't_ completely stop evil for one reason or another.

I mean, seriously, if Jesus or whoever came out of the Great Beyond tomorrow and started up a Superman act that undeniably proved the existance of God in a particular form by saving a bunch of lives on live TV, that would be _the end_ of our world and our free will. There would be no denying it.

I want to harm myself or someone else, well it doesn't matter. Big Brother stops it before it happens. I can't be bad anymore. Nor can I choose good since it is chosen for me.

The net affect of that is harmful to the human race, so it is against an all-loving God's nature to ever change the world in such a manner. Hence, the course of action such a being would have to take would be necessarily limited in its publicity and frequency. Not due to lack of power or lack of caring, but due to the moral weight of the ultimate consequences.

I mean, seriously, God didn't save your mother from dying. God didn't spare Jesus his fate either. I don't think it is fair to accuse God of playing favorites or doing this sort of thing on a lark.

On the overall, it is a lot easier to make a low-impact save on something that is hard to document and relatively chaotic, such as a fire, storm, or fall than something long and constant such as Cancer, or AIDS. You'd typically need to stop Cancer way in the early stages. And, from what you tell me, your mother was exposed to those cancer-causing agents constantly. That would mean saving her day after day after day. That winds up looking very abnormal in the long term.

It is a wonder nothing happened to her sooner, or to the people around her work. To say that God did not do anything to help you or your mother is to assume a lot about the nature of God and unseen events that may or may not have transpired. She may have been saved more times than you know, day after day.

Years later, those past days might not seem like much, but ask yourself, now a grown up woman, how much you would trade in your life for - just one day - with her alive and with you again?

I look back on all the loved ones who have died in the last two years in my circle of family and friends and would trade almost anything to have them back for just a moment. Only when I think of that do I realize how truly precious that time I've already had with them must be. It is even more profound to realize how much of that time could simply have never been given to us. Many of those moments were on borrowed time.
kaioto
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 04:23:34 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

lain> << then he DIDNT do so in order to save OTHER people>>

No, a lot of them have already been saved by Him. Again, the secular concept of life ends in the graveyard; the Christian concept of life extends into the after-life. Your not seeing this. Once we die, we go to God.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 04:07:23 PM
IP: 129.120.255.198

hyperion>> <<the whole religion discussion it�s like being a kid in a candy store, albeit a candy store where you get nailed with a cattle prod if you don't have exact change for that last M&M..>> *falls off chair laughing* yeah, thats a pretty good description ;) hee hee.. i like you.. you can stay :D << I'm sure at some point I'll die and he'll be asking me for ID>> LOL! :D << is god so insecure that he needs people running around saying "Yay, God" when all he has to do is look out over his creation and think, "Damn, I'm good.">> again with the wit! :D <<In the end, though, both views are really about faith. The religious view depends on faith in the Creator, that the universe was assembled via his whim for purposes unknown. The scientific depends on the faith that somewhere in the void that is another Earth with another me sitting at another computer typing this post, and this action is replicated ad infinitum throughout the (infinite) universe>> isnt that what i said? i believe it to be true also.. that it takes just as much faith to believe either way.. or to believe anything at all about "where we came from" for that matter. << Ironically you didn't tell me anything I didn't know>> i was teasing you goofy ;) if you want to find out about the TGS staff well.. theres that recruitment drive...... ;) <> uh.. sure.. however, it might be better to discuss in private email format, since that would take away the whole "criticism in public" aspect and I would probably respond to something differently in private that I would in public. you gimme your email, ill give you mine ;) <> well, thats always nice.. but im not too sure i qualify as a "good" person.. :P <<Hell, we can predict the weather on this planet>> which weather channel are YOU watching?! ;) <> mark 3:31 "jesus mother and brothers came and stood outside. then they sent someone with a message for him to come out to them. the crowd that was sitting around jesus told him, "your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside and want to see you"" (also matthew 13:1 and luke 8:4.. but of course, not john :P) however, he then goes on to say "who is my mother and who are my brothers?" and "anyone who obeys GOD is my brother or sister or mother". however, from the passage, it seems reasonable to interpret that his family was coming down to have a chat with him because they thought he was a loony. Also, mark 6:3 mentions james (the only one anyone knows anything about, having become an important leader in the church and all that) joseph, judas (not iscariot) and simon as being the brothers of jesus and children of mary. the same verse mentions sisters, but doesnt give any names. im sure kaioto and/or the baron have a different interpretation, though.

kaioto>> i was wondering when youd show up for a ramble.. <<Well, sadly, the bigotry and ignorance here being vented against the Catholic Church is so pronounced it is rather pathetic>> im just trying to tease.. all of what i said on the subject was pretty much specifically aimed at green baron, who would probably have a chortle.. as was the intent (from me, anyways) <<But then, when the dice - we choose to throw - eventually come up snake-eyes and we suffer, people try to blame God for it>> its easier that way.. but i totally agree, that is what happens, and that was sort-of what i was arguing against. people praise GOD when good things happen, but a significant number seem to turn on him when things go sour, and (insofar as i can gather) thats not the way "christians" are supposed to think..

as for my mother.. no, i know very well that its not because my "prayers werent good enough" im not THAT daft :P i know she died because of liver failure because of a rare type of breast cancer she got because she mixed all of her own glazes in her pottery studio and inhaled lots of chemicals that were likely not too good for her. my dog had to be put down when she was 4, because she used to play down there with mum during the day and got lung cancer. i used to play down there and help her a lot, too, so goodie for me. i KNOW thats the reason why she died. my ARGUMENT is that it seems absurd to say that "GOD saved someone" because it does logically follow that if he did "intervene" to save them, then he DIDNT do so in order to save OTHER people. and i *cannot* comprehend the idea of worshipping a being with whims like that. if it is true, that he acts in this fashion, then i can and will fight against the bastard with every particle of my being, because that is NOT RIGHT and everyone keeps trying to convince me that GOD is "right". the fact that stuff happens? now THAT i can do. just because "stuff happens" doesnt necessarily mean there is no GOD, it just means GOD has better stuff to do than muck around saving us from the bad decisions *we* make using that whole "free will" thing he supposedly gave us. :P

(..and if he didnt have better things to be doing (other than playing with his toys), that would *reaaaally* piss me off :P)
lain
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 03:00:56 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

Hyperion> <>

That's according to Catholicism. According to the Bible, Mary "got to know Joseph" after Jesus and had kids.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 02:15:19 PM
IP: 129.120.255.198

Josh >> See, the problem with the order-from-chaos theory is that it also requires infinity matter and energy, which the universe, according to Science, does not have. Infinite space, sure, that's do-able. Infinite time, possible. Infinite matter / energy. Nope. Not happening under these physics.

In other words, you might have infinite time (unproven), but you lack the infinite monkeys and type-writers. That makes the odds much steeper of ever getting Shakespeare.

Gunjack >> Pretty much spot-on in terms of many of your assessments

Regarding fallen angels >>

People like to play Lucifer off as a humanist, but Lucifer wasn't human. Angels were / are not humans. They had full knowledge of God that humans could not have. In the light of that full knowledge, the fallen chose to reject God. Given their nature as intransient beings, they can't really change their minds. They more or less _are_ rather than _become_. They placed themselves seperate from the God-existance that (by this supposition) is the embodiment of absolute good, love, etc. By so doing, they embraced the lack of these traits: malice, selfishness, envy, etc. That is why Lucifer and his ilk are considered evil, not defined by what they accept, but what they reject and the voids in virtue such a rejection created.

As for their nature, I think devils and demons are just the manifestations (Platonic theoreticals or otherwise) of lack of basic virtues. The are entities, if you will, that embody lack of that which is good, no-things rather than some-things, if you would. I don't haev any particular fear of the possibilities, since giving them any real sort of unchecked power over mortals other than temptations would seriously endanger free will.

Christians >>

Well, sadly, the bigotry and ignorance here being vented against the Catholic Church is so pronounced it is rather pathetic. Regarding Catholicism being the only Christianity before Luther, you're wrong.

Before Luther in the mid 1500's, there was the Eastern Orthodox Church in 1054 A.D., which exists to this day and is largely ignored by hordes of Western European and American pseudo-intellectuals.

Before the Eastern Orthodox Church, there were the Coptic Christians, who also exist to this day with a religion that is as old as Catholicism.

Bad Things happening and Intervention >>

Think about it this way. The universe is a remarkable consistant place in terms of physics. The human race as a whole has a LOT of fair warning as to what activities and elements lead to spontanious death or injurt. We just disregard them for the sake of convenience. We run and consequently fall down. We set ourselves on fire, and consequently burn. We know better, but we do anyway. It really isn't tragic or wrong, just painful.

Living by the ocean exposes you to hurricanes. Living in the montains makes you more vulnerable to earthquakes. Primative peoples knew better than to live in such areas. We KNOW heavy things can fall down and kill us if they aren't supported. I still go to work in an office tower every day.

Gravity isn't turned off. My building could fall. I'd die. I'm not going to blame God, since I had fair warning about gravity. We insist on gambling on these sorts of things, hedging our bets with technology. But then, when the dice - we choose to throw - eventually come up snake-eyes and we suffer, people try to blame God for it. I don't see the point, really, other than to try and pretend you are more safe because the people that get unfortunate somehow "deserved it." That sort of Calvanist thinking doesn't fly with me.

As for intervention and random chance saving the vulnerable. Sure. Maybe God takes a hand in here and there where it fits. Maybe S/He doesn't. It doesn't make life and the love we have for one another any less or more precious of a gift. No matter what, constant, wide-spread divine intervention would have a profound impact on human existance and would ultimately remove the value of our choices and actions by insulating us from their consequences, squelching Free Will completely. That would not be an act of a being of perfect love, certainly.

Letting someone off without a ticket is something a good cop can do, but if he does it too much, the law loses its value and everyone suffers. In the same mode, saving someone from the consequences of their actions is something we can do in good conscience, but if we do it too much, choices lose their value and everyone suffers for it.

In conclusion, churches burn because people are foolish enough to make buildings out of something THEY KNOW is flammable and then expect it not to burn.
Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 02:12:26 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Hmm...where to begin...the whole religion discussion it�s like being a kid in a candy store, albeit a candy store where you get nailed with a cattle prod if you don't have exact change for that last M&M...but oh well.
Art is long/and time is fleeting/and the grave is not it's goal/to dust thou art and to dust returnith/was spoken not of the soul.

Since a big question is "Why did God help person X and not person Y?" As was mentioned, sticking a fork in a light socket does not always result in death by electrocution, but then again, neither does getting hit by a lighting strike. So in either case, was it sheer dumb luck, the will of a divine being, or that persons innate desire to live?
Before proceeding, I suppose I should mentioned that although I've studied many religions, I adhere to none, mostly because every one I've looked at so far has at least a few points that I disagree with. My own view: there is a god, and that all humans are possessed of a shard of that godhead, be it the soul, the avatar, a guardian angel, whatever; that allows humanity to not only aspire to exceed our limits, but to proceed to surpass them.(See for reference, earlier discussions on sentience)
I suppose then, you could say I'm indifferent to god; while I'm sure at some point I'll die and he'll be asking me for ID, up until that point my only goal is to strive to fulfill the potential that existence has granted me...etc...etc...
Obviously there are the two extremes of religions thought. You have the faithful devotion espoused (admittedly a bit incoherently) by Ravenes. Complete faith that everything written is true, right down to the color of Moses' robe and damned if that's not the way it happened. Six days for the creations of the universe and you can time that with a stopwatch. Clearly, one could argue that this idea is flawed. Dinosaurs aren�t mentioned in the Bible, nor is their extinction. Likewise, I'm not aware of any records of any flood that wiped out most of humanity. While faith is good, blind faith, refusal to question, is at best, counterproductive and certainly, in my opinion, not leading to an understanding of *why* God should be worshipped. Really, is god so insecure that he needs people running around saying "Yay, God" when all he has to do is look out over his creation and think, "Damn, I'm good."
The other side then, is the secular scientific view that Josh has put fourth. All creation is a matter of probabilities and we're really nothing special. While this certainly satisfies Occom's Razor, the consequence of this thought is that it makes all life irrelevant. Life, and particularly mankind, is then nothing more than a series of physical and chemical reactions. Since I can easily stop a chemical reaction by adding a specific reagent, why then should I care if I stop a reaction in a human body, and if it leads to the collapse of the system, so what? If I cease the functioning of a bacteria with an antibiotic, is that any greater of a crime then stopping oxygen transfer with cyanide? If a star goes nova due to a breakdown of helium in it's core; if a man poisons his rival, if an exterminator kills an ant, if a white blood cell devours a germ, are all then equivalent, morally speaking? Each is simply a cession of a set chemical reactions.
In the end, though, both views are really about faith. The religious view depends on faith in the Creator, that the universe was assembled via his whim for purposes unknown. The scientific depends on the faith that somewhere in the void that is another Earth with another me sitting at another computer typing this post, and this action is replicated ad infinitum throughout the (infinite) universe. While this theory might argue the failing with the other is that the end result is a statement of "because of god"; isn�t it also true that the secular theory ends with the equally unenlightening statement "because of probability"?
It is said that "god does not play dice" perhaps he does, and I would not be surprised if he loads them too.

lain><nitrogen volcanoes> Ironically you didn't tell me anything I didn't know. Unfortunately the analogy still holds.
<my prayers were obviously not "good enough" for GOD>I will not respond to this comment unless you tell me that any remark I make will not be taken as a criticism of you, your family or your mother. I refuse to make good people miserable just to prove a theological point.

Lila><God's got one hell of a sense of humor or is completely sadistic> Or God is operating on a vast plan of some sort that we cannot comprehend. Hell, we can predict the weather on this planet; and some people think we should know what God intends with the universe? Interesting use of hubris there.

Ravenes><We've found Jesus's "Brothers" coffin I think> I thought, according to the Bible, Jesus was the only son of Mary.

Revel><Good things don't just happen, people make them happen> The gods help those that help themselves. Or conversely:
A man kneels by his bed and prays, "God, I don�t understand, I've prayed to you every night and go to Church every Sunday, and I have nothing, but the man across the street never prays, never sets foot in a church, and he has everything, how can this be?" And a great booming voice answers, "THAT GUY DOSEN'T BUG ME, THAT'S WHY!"

Gside><Creedance> Did they ever do anything but "Down on the corner" and "Bad Moon Rising"?
<bridging a circuit> Point, but neither does it automatically result in no injury either.

Imzadi>< It was the beeping alarm clock> Unfortunately. Damn thing seems to go off earlier and earlier.
 You'd be surprised at what you can get in Pittsburgh.
<Its your phrasing that was disturbing> "Suck it, Tre-beck"
<You should have used metal> Yeah, like I got a freaking metal shop in my basement. I don't have room what with all the LEGOs.
<mech with 12 machine guns>heh, heh, heh...I'm an ER laser, autocannon man myself.
<no one in this CR is within 10 miles of me> *Books plane ticket* about to change, sonny-boy!

Fire Storm><can anyone get to Jack> Yes, Mr. Daniels is right on my bar where I left him.

*********************************************
"What's our status?"
"Chief of security is in critical condition in medlab. He thinks there's a conspiracy concerning the president's death. Ambassador G'Kar has mysteriously vanished. After two years we still don't know what Ambassador Kosh looks like inside his encounter suit. And Ambassador Delenn is in a cocoon."
"A cocoon? As in a moth or a butterfly?"
"Yes, sir. About yea high."
"Interesting place you have here."
Hyperion
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 01:20:22 PM
IP: 151.199.240.30

Semester is OVER! Oh and Josh? Neener Neener Neener!

Not going to get into a religiouse debate despite the fact that it's the Christmas/Hanukah/Ramadan season

Speaking of which!
Holiday Music:
"Christmas in Hollis"
"Do they know its Christmas?"
"I farted on Santa's lap"

Christmas Movies and Specials
Charlie Brown Christmas, It's all about the Snoopy Dance!
How the Grinch stole Christmas..Not the Jim Carrey one!
A Nightmare before Christmas
Scrooged
Sailormoon S movie: Subbed version of course

Replies:
Godiva>>>That was beautiful. It might not have been a fear of Satan and more of a MOTHER instinct, but you still felt the need to pray.<<<Kiefer Sutherland as Jon Castaway>>>Hmmm not bad, I was thinking of Cary Elwes and Revel thought of Jude Law.

DPH<<<Introducing Holographic Mistletoe v2.0>>>:::Looks up and notices Christmas themed fey hovering near mistletoe::: Um no I think I shall stay away<<<Aside from the pie crust, I make mine from stratch.>>>Cool can you make Mincemeat?

JacKaL<<<YaY, a dbz fan!>>>Not really, although I am a big fan of Vegeta�s family.

Gside<<<Credence? >>>Uh no It�s from my Words of Courage pocket book.

Josh<<<Turns out I need 11 units>>>:::Immature Laugh:::<<>>I�m not touching that one<<<Links>>>They are mostly Quizzila<<<But I did score 25% off star wars lego!>>>Was it worth the savage rampant pushy soccer moms?<<<Bitch.>>>Neener!<<>>Awww too bad.<<<not to mention smelly>>>I thought those were hippys

Firestorm<<<SO LM and I are now officially engaged.>>>Congrats<<<Behold the glory of... SCIENTOLOGY!>>>Good God! No!!!!<<<Back massages are better>>>True but sometimes the footsie needs a love rub<<<But that guy has GOT to be this world's Sevarius!>>>Can he sing Sweet Transvestite?<<<COMMENT! COMMENT!!!!>>>Down boy or no fresh meat for you!

Greg X>>>I love you, but you are strange. Lucifer was greedy and power hungry that is why he challenged God. He wants us to suffer eternally in the firery regions of hell. God wants us to go to heaven. If anyone in Christian history were tyrants it would be the Catholic Church ((No offense to the cute Catholic Boy, aka Green Baron)) For a long time they held control of the Christian religion. If you were not Catholic then you were not Christian. Then one brave soul challenged them by nailing his belief against the door to the church, A few years later King Henry the VIII broke away from the Catholic church when he divorced his first wife, and so on and so on.

Revel :::Smooch:::<<>>He didn�t go bald, he SHAVED it off.

Mooncat<<<I'm glad Godiva's son is well and healthy. And be it an act of god or simple dumb luck, it's a result we can all be thankful for, to whatever or whoever we give thanks to. >>>I think you summed it all up.

Leo<<<Ferel too? >>>Naw too fuzzy

Gunjack<<<Good lord... >>>Yes he is good.

5."I have a lot of thingsto prove to myself. One is that I can live my life fearlessly" ~Oprah Winfrey
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 11:44:59 AM
IP: 67.24.17.223

I wont' comment on the religion debate because about 90% of the posts don't actually argue against the religion as found in the Bible (except for Mooncat's post which someone argues that a Messiah dying for the salvation of humanity is selfish O_o). But rather most try to defy the concept of A god via Epicurus.

Lain > <<because if this is true, it means that GOD DID NOT save all the OTHER little children whos parents pray just as hard. and im sorry, i just cant deal with that one. >>

Again, as I told you over IM, death is not the end for a Christian. We believe in an after-life where people spend eternity when they die. Death is the bridge to get there. Though I would prefer that people's lives be saved, I can understand when someone dies that they will be taken care of by Someone who loves them even more than I do, and that God will take better care of them than I ever could. That's a reassurance for me for when my mother dies (whom I am extrememly close to).

Josh> <<watch-maker theory>> Ahhhh, another foolish attmept to explain the existence of the Biblical God. Why do Christians waste their breath.

<<and I've come to the simple conclusion that religion is a tool for controlling the feeble-minded>>

Obviously you've never read Edmund Husserl (hardcore natirallist/mathematician turned philosopher who founded Phenomenology), St. Agustine, Martin Heidegger, Hegel (though his Christiantiy is very sceewed).

Science is for those who are too scared to think non-empirically. Also, let's not forget the fact that Muslims did a lot to further the sciences! *gasp*

<<I'll believe in god when I am surrounded by his holy light and a booming voice comes from the sky and says "Josh, this is god. Stop touching yourself!">>

Pretty much what happened to me, except for the whole "Stop touching yourself" and the whole white light thing ;).
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 09:54:42 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

ED - Re your comments about Pippin and Merry as done in the movie: the part that bothered me most about the movie adaptation where they were concerned was that they were portrayed as almost indistinguishable from each other, both equally immature. In the book, Merry was portrayed from the start as a responsible, capable figure (his very first scene is where he's helping Frodo organize things just after the Farewell Party and Bilbo's departure - in particular, helping him throw out a few hobbits who got into Bag End for the purpose of rummaging around and searching for Bilbo's legendary treasure), clearly distinguishing him from Pippin. In the movie, they appear both equally immature and indistinguishable from each other. I'm hoping that the other two movies will differentiate them more (the fact that they get split up, with Pippin in Gondor and Merry in Rohan, in "The Return of the King", serving separate lords, might help matters there).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 07:07:02 AM
IP: 65.56.168.126

Hey Lain to bad I don't know enough about the tgs stuff or I could help you with all that writing and stuff :o) My cat is out of heat now...I think I've fallin in love and i really don't like general labour I prefure customer service. *whines* I don't wanna go to work!! My supervisor also makes me work all by myself :oP and it sucks. Christmas is creeping up to fast, my room mate snore like louder than my father and YEA my check will be cleared tomorrow and I can pay back all my IOU's and get food!! Um yeah so don't mind me I'm just babbling...*shivers its cold in the appartments here :oP i think I'll catch a bus, ttyl!
Phire_Kat
Middle of Nowhere, Novfluxitine, Canada
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 05:22:52 AM
IP: 65.93.18.157

Josh><<My devotion to the idea that anything can be explained by science is just as strong as people's insistence of the existence of god.>> And, arguably, just as irrational. You just stated one thing that science absolutely CANNOT explain: the prime mover. As for the statistical arguement, I find it gratifying that the more science learns, the more impossible that possibility becomes. I believe the current theory is that our earth is completely one of a kind, which would indicate that the probabilities have run clear off the map. Any comment?
V
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 02:39:40 AM
IP: 192.133.129.164

Lain - *applauds* ...I was going to have to respond at length, but you saved me most of the trouble. Lemme just say, I'm glad you're on MY side.
<<well.. that depends on your opinion of modern art ;)>> Thank you. That brightened up a dreary evening. Mmmm, modern art... <<in all honesty i dont think the fact that jesus existed is much in doubt anymore.>> ...You'd be suprised. <<that involves astrophysics and all that stuff.>> Go on, tell her the "Let there be light!" one! That one's so cool! <<this is not to say the israelites constructed the "red sea" story completely from this myth, but rather to suggest that they used the known cultural framework of the area to interpret their experience with their "living GOD".>> And so on, with how the plagues are affronts to individual Egyptian dieties. I love this stuff. :D

Ravenes - Really, you ought to listen to what Lain says. She and I come from opposite backgrounds (she was raised a hardcore atheist, I was raised a christian), and we don't quite see eye to eye on everything, but I've lost enough arguements to her to learn that she knows her stuff. She's also much more civil than most of the people who're going to respond to you. Lila, for example. : P ...How old are you, by the way?

Greg><<He is a heroic figure who was the first to challenge God's tyranny. Lucifer is a humanist.>> Oh, geez...

Godiva><<He believes that in order to shake my faith in the Lord, he has to attack not only me, but my family as well.>> Good lord...

Lila><<If "God" exists, and takes interest in human affairs... God's got one hell of a sense of humor or is completely sadistic.>> ...

Oh, but it's go time.

hooooKAY! Feroom ze TUP!

Godiva><<From what I know of Satan, he�s a desperate being. He believes that in order to shake my faith in the Lord, he has to attack not only me, but my family as well.>> If God is directly responsible when your son was spared, would he not also be responsible if your son had died? You assume that the Devil is responsible for all the bad things that happen, and God only handles the miraculous recoveries and the stunning survivals. If your son had died, would you assume that God had been slacking on the job? Do you believe that God doesn't use death and tragedy to his own ends, as well as life and rejoicing?

Lila - Not to be repetitive, but you're in my sights. Prepare yourself for a verbal barrage with deadeye aim.

<<...and enough education in the sciences to put my faith in evolution, not some big warm fuzzy daddy-wanna-be in the sky.>> Oddly enough, the God that you don't believe in bears little relationship to the God of Christianity, or Judaism for that matter. He seems little more than a charicature, a straw-god. Maybe this is why you find him so easy to dismiss?
...We'll get to the evolution part a bit later. For now, Heh.
<<Churches routinely burn or collapse on worshippers.>> Your point was...? Yes, fires burn much as they always have, and gravity shows no sign of taking a holiday. This is commonly known as LIFE. No one ever said that God gave his followers some sort of special exemption from the vagaries of life in a fallen world.
<<The catholic church... scandal much? The whole organized form of THAT religion was based around the elimination of competition.>> Assuming that the Catholic Church is actually a valid representation of Christianity (which, with the Baron's pardon, is one HECK of a stretch), we still see nothing more than ordinary people screwing up much as they always have, and much as they always will. Following God doesn't proof you against the innate human ability to screw up any more than it proofs you against fire and collapsing roof beams. You judge the faith by a standard that its founder and blind reason clearly state is impossible to live up to.
<<I'm not a big fan of orgainzed religion. Having philosophies and beliefs is fine, as long as one doesn't try to impose those beliefs on other people, or other destructive acts in the name of religion.>> I always seem to end up in this same spot, but maybe it's for the best: Simply put, Stalin. HUMANITY is innately destructive. Many religions act as a brake on that destructive drive, but they've been used for bad ends plenty of times throughout history. I'd still wager, though, that scientific Athiesm is catching up pretty freaking fast on the body count, and Christianity had a 2,000-year head start. Look up Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Ho Chi Minh. Heard of them?
So yeah, Christianity and other religions have been abused by "crusaders"... but in the long run, it'll be the Nihilists who stack up the most corpses.
<<I've actually heard (and it seems to make sens) that Satanists are fundamentalist christians gone too far.>> As a fundamentalist Christian, I don't see the connection... explain?
<<Wrong answer #1. If you blow up a house, it will make a MESS. Duh.>> I admit that she's a study on incoherence, but you might want to dig out what she's actually saying before you pounce. If I'm not mistaken, she was refering to one of the basic arguements against evolution: simply put, order does not come out of chaos. When you blow up a house, you get a mess, not a stienway grand.
<> Here's a telling question: have you ever encountered a devout Christian who you DIDN'T consider a bigot? <<Do you like wise doubt chemistry and mathematics? Are those too logical for you?>> I can't speak for her, but I doubt neither. I have yet to see either support evolution convincingly.
<<On the off chance that you meant "links" as in preserved archeological examples of evolutionary evidence... um, we HAVE.>> Funny, not from what I heard. The theory of evolution stated that species gradually changed shape over billions of years, and, if I'm not mistaken, predicted that further digging would unearth fossils of a fair number of the intermeiate steps. I'm just a fool christian, so my science might be a bit rusty, but I believe this is what is known as a "testable hypothesis". So people dug, and dug, and unearthed loads of bones... And look! The vastly expanded fossil record fails to show ANY clear instances of a Link. We see gradual morphological change on a small scale, broken by huge gaps: exactly the opposite of what the theory indicated.
There are no Links. Period. Why do you think that "punctuated equilibrium" theory (if memory serves) is such hot stuff right now?
<<Doesn't mean my characters were actually there.>> ...And yet, oddly enough, a document written over a span of, oh, a dozen centuries or so by multiple authors manages to escape without a SINGLE HISTORICAL INACCURACY. Funny how these things happen...
<<Is questioning authority evil? (Before you answer, think the facist authority of the Nazi party.)>> No, it is not.
<<Are religious texts to be taken literally in all their many translations?>> To the extent that they are written literally, yes. It would be rather foolish to attempt to take poetry literally.
<<When different translations contradict each other... which is right?>> The origional source.

<<Think before you type. It helps.>> Given the number of misunderstandings and statements whose vehemence and condescention were matched only by inaccuracy, you might take your own advice.

Greg><<If these beings exist than I fully believe that God is a malevolent tyrant. Lucifer is not a villain, but rather the victim of history's greatest smear campaign.>> Dude... I don't even know where to start. Maybe another time.

That's all for now. I'll take the rest later.
Gunjack "She's Actual Size" Valentine
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 02:33:41 AM
IP: 192.133.129.164

Hey, can anyone get to Jack? I just get a page cannot be found error.

I need my daily dose of Fnar!
Fire Storm - [<--- JACK!]
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 02:27:03 AM
IP: 66.72.186.61

Oh, I'm gonna have a field day with this...

Anyway, walked into some of my classes today for the first time in two weeks (much to the annoyance of my profs). Paper got pushed back to monday, giving me an extra...many days.

***Existence of God***

I had to put a damper on this argument, but the "watchmaker theory" isn't a valid argument for the proof of god. In a nutshell, the watchmaker argument says this: if you found a watch lying on a beach in the middle of B.F. Nowhere, you'd assume someone built the watch because of the finely detailed parts and manufactured goodness. Therefore, the argument concludes, since the world is more complicated than a random pile of blocks, it must be made by a consciousness, and that consciousness is god, Q.E.D.

The problem with "God People" is that no matter how far back you try and explain something, eventually you get to a point when you have to say "just because" and they say "ha! Its not 'just because'! It's because that's the way god said it is!"

Even the watchmaker argument can be explained with the basic scientific principle of statistics. People are always amazed when they find out that other people have the same birthday as them, yet there are 6 billion people and only 365 days on which you can be born. Therefore, there are over 16 MILLION people that share your birthday (and most are in China!). Viola, statistics. Of course, its not quite perfectly balanced because people tend to !@#$ on New Year's, Xmas, and other holidays, but you get the idea. And if you don't, let me beat you with a clue-by-four.

Now lets expand it. As far as our knowledge is concerned, the universe is infinite (even though we can only see as far as (speed of light)x(age of universe), but I won't get into that). With INFINITE possibilities, even something as complex as THIS WHOLE PLANET AND EVERY THING/EVENT ON IT are virtually guaranteed to happen SOMEWHERE. Lo and behold, it happened here. Statistically, if the universe is truly infinite, there are actually an infinite number of worlds where this has happened.

So, my watchmaker friends, given infinite beaches, a bunch of metal parts would eventually fall together and form a watch, just like an infinite number of monkeys would eventually type the works of Shakespeare.

Unfortunately, some god-fearing person can now say "and do you know why infinity works that way? because of god! So ha!"...which is why this argument will never go anywhere. Even if we understand *everything*, someone will say "its that way because god made it that way, therefore god exists. QED.".

I've heard it argued that strict belief in science is a religion, and I totally agree with it. My devotion to the idea that anything can be explained by science is just as strong as people's insistence of the existence of god.

I'll believe in god when I am surrounded by his holy light and a booming voice comes from the sky and says "Josh, this is god. Stop touching yourself!" Until then, I'll attribute the fact that I'm alive to statistics, dumb luck, and the pity of others.

***END EXISTENCE OF GOD***

Fire Storm: <<LM and I are now officially engaged>>: Took yer sweet frikkin' time! Jeez, even I'd have popped the question by now! And I'm going to be a bachelor for life! <<Don't you just dream of pulling up those stockings and singing Sweet Transvestite?>>: Actually...no. <<At least someone is always up>>: True, we can protect our computers from thieves more easily. <<let the populous f$ck their brains out>>: But why would they want to do a file check? <<The world could use a lot more of those>>: Working on it! <<Behold the glory of... SCIENTOLOGY>>: What glory? Oh, you must mean "money". <<a female tentacle monster... with strapons>>: Isn't that a bit redundant? <<We are like that by definition>>: Sexy? I think not. <<Back massages are better>>: Full body. <<Are these leather restraints really necessary>>: Yes.

Hyperion: <<another day>>: It was the beeping alarm clock that gave it away, wasn't it? <<much nookie and jello wrestling>>: I didn't know you could get those things in Pittsburgh. <<Not at the same time, as far as I know>>: Doesn't sound like as much fun anymore. <<You act like I'm responsible for it>>: Not at all. Its your phrasing that was disturbing 8-) <>: That was your first mistake. You should have used metal. <>: Its all about the can-opener. That's my nickname for a mech with 12 machine guns 8-) <<When will you be carrying large sums of money again>>: I frequently carry large amounts of cash. Of course, no one in this CR is within 10 miles of me at any such time 8-) <<you're speaking as which all powerful, all-knowing deity>>: Pretty much, yeah. <>: If I shared my knowledge, then I wouldn't be the only all-knowing guy around, would I? <<will eventually rise up and burn the webserver because of references to "black magic" in the series?>>: Its reasonable. People have tried to ban far less offensive things in the name of what is holy. Not that I think the Christian right has enough free time to do that here.

Ed: <<They�re probably sunning themselves in a resort in Thailand or something>>: They had their "bathing suit" licenses revoked. They can only sun themselves in a 3-piece suit. <<just because you say you �know� something doesn�t mean it�s an objective fact>>: This is the problem with god people. They think that their beliefs are objective facts.

Godiva: <<Kiefer Sutherland as Jon Castaway>>: Not a bad thought. <<It sure is>>: Be sure to let me know when you witness it. <<he did feel something if he was rinsing his finger in the sink>>: Notice the use of the word "hardly". <<From what I know of Satan>>: You don't know anything about satan. You know what you've been told. Even assuming he exists, I'd say your churches knowledge on his personality is questionable at best. <<He believes that in order to shake my faith in the Lord, he has to attack not only me, but my family as well>>: I really think he has better things to do with his time. He doesn't want to shake your faith. He tried that trick with Job and it failed. And Jesus. He wants to corrupt you. Ever had sex without the purpose of conceiving a child? OOPS! YOU'RE GOING TO HELL! <<You would if you knew that your time was limited and that you would be soundly defeated by an all-powerful good deity>>: Actually, no. If I *knew* I was going to be defeated, I wouldn't bother struggling at all because it wouldn't matter what I did. I'd just sit back, smoke cigars, and seduce hot women. Notice that the bible doesn't end with the victory of heaven, it ends with the mention of the apocalypse and judgment day. Satan's victor or loss is far from decided, and as such he's busy trying to get souls. He's fighting because he thinks he can win. Only a fool would try to fight after knowing that loss is inevitable, and you can't tell me that you believe Satan is a fool. <<You�d be trying to win people over to your side>>: Why? You just told me that my side can't win! <<Little David did have an extension cord plugged into the same outlet>>: Oh well then DUH! The vast majority of charge was already attracted by the extension cord and whatever was plugged into the extension cord. Just like the stiffer members in a structure attract more load (a simplification, but true in a nutshell). <>: If they were playing in the room, there must have been something to play with. <<When�s the wedding?>>: If the engagement is any indication, then it will be in 2014. <<My little boy should be dead, but he isn�t>>: No, see, he *shouldn't* be dead. If he should be dead, he would be, because elementary E&M would have dictated so. It may have been by dumb luck of circumstance that your son is alive, but its no more a miracle than the fact that you didn't get a hit by a car on your way home from work (though if you live in CA I guess that statement doesn't hold much meaning).

Lain: <<or worse - because "they must have a greater purpose">>: I like to respond to this one with "trust me, dear, your child isn't that important." <<granted, theyre not qualified to know how GOD works any more than my father>>: But they have the bible that tells them! ;-) <<Please choose from one of the three topics below>>: I love how these topics are completely generic and manage to reveal NOTHING about where its headed. Good job. <<if theres anything ELSE youd like to know>>: How about telling me when stocks will pick up?

Lila: <<God's got one hell of a sense of humor or is completely sadistic>>: Yeah, you'd think he'd let us !@#$ for longer 8-) <<hassidic, orthodox, etc.) are likewise bigoted and often cruel towards even other members of their religion, if less devout>>: Its the worst. I went to Israel for my bar mitzvah only to be told that I wasn't really a jew. <<enough education in the sciences to put my faith in evolution, not some big warm fuzzy daddy-wanna-be in the sky>>: But evolution only works because god said so! ;-)

Greg X: <>: not to mention smelly. <<essay>>: Good essay.

Ravenes: You know, I had a whole long response all ready, but I realized after your post to Ed that you're an idiot, and idiots can't be reasoned with. And you still need to learn to spell. How can a STORY inherently have truth? Even modern history books are blatantly biased, even in detailed accounts of what happened. Why is you picking up the bible and saying that it is a true account of ANYTHING any more valid than me picking up The Odyssey and saying that its a true account of a mystical hero, and there are actually MANY gods? You can believe something is true, but you cannot KNOW it. You aren't that smart. And neither is anyone else. Oh, and retard: volcanos have WORLD WIDE impact. And another thing: an experienced blaster can make an explosion do *anything*. With enough training, I could blow up a house and make the pieces land as another, smaller house.

Mooncat: <<one cannot say it's the only religion that people don't understand either>>: I've studied many religions at VERY non-religious schools, and I've come to the simple conclusion that religion is a tool for controlling the feeble-minded, that it offers explanations for things that can't easily be understood rather than encouraging people to find their own explanations. <<they do a lot of ethically questionable things>>: In the bible, the character that does the most ethically questionable things is GOD, which is why its so hypocritical (whether it happened or not). <<And be it an act of god or simple dumb luck, it's a result we can all be thankful for>>: I definitely agree with that.

Gside: <<Circuit breaker doing its job?>>: That would work too. <<Kevin Smith doesn't know about me>>: Actually he does. <<there are many ways something bad could happen in such a situation>>: True, but electricity will take the path of least resistance (no pun intended). <<has been confused by my father>>: Your father has been confused for Bon Jovi? <<Unless something's plugged into the other end>>: I'm betting something was...people generally don't just leave extension cords hooked up for nothing. <<Fossils of animals that, according to the half life of carbon 14, last breathed air well over 6000 years ago>>: But really, all that science-y stuff doesn't matter, since if people don't understand it they just say "god did it". <<One can know what is the truth...one cannot know the truth>>: Can you explain this apparent contradiction? <<A man walking around the middle east 2000 years ago does not prove divinity>>: How about a man walking around my apartment yesterday? <<most of the steps between species are pretty big jumps>>: Not really. We can trace dinosaurs to both birds and mammals.

Okay I was just waiting for Gside to post, now I'll post and be gone.

63. Bulk trash will be disposed of in incinerators, not compactors. And they will be kept hot, with none of that nonsense about flames going through accessible tunnels at predictable intervals.

Josh - [ATkicktothenutsDOTcom]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 02:01:20 AM
IP: 64.165.202.96

Imzadi> <<like, say, a ground>>: Circuit breaker doing its job?
<<But he masturbates more than anyone else on earth>>: Kevin Smith doesn't know about me.
<<BEHOLD THE GLORY OF...SCIENCE>>: Though to play... God's advocate, there are many ways something bad could happen in such a situation (only connect yourself to the hot wire (and ground)), that a miracle may be there, if in a subtle way.

Fire Storm> <<"It's my life" by whoever sang it>>: Bon Jovi. Jersey boy. And has been confused by my father.
<<LM and I are now officially engaged>>: Congratulations.
<<Not familiar with that site>>: http://www.xiaoxiaomovie.com
<<all those owl messengers need some lovin>>: I volunteer.
<<a female tentacle monster... with strapon>>: Nah, hermaphroditic lesbian catgirls with tentacles.

Hyperion> <<Revival?>>: Good music.
<<post your annoyance, irritation and/or hatred>>: Nope, just saying that bridging a circuit does not automatically result in death or serius injury.

Godiva> <<Well, he did feel something if he was rinsing his finger in the sink>>: Lets say the keys have a resistance of 1 micro Ohm and he has a resistance of 12 mega Ohms. With 120 volt house current, the keys would carry a current of .12 giga Amps, and he would carry a current of 10 micro Amps. It takes about 0.25 Amps to kill. That's well within safe range, but static electricity shocks are over 3000 Volts with negligable Amperage, and they still hurt. Not static shocks instantaneous, while he could have been holding it for a second or so, so that would probably hurt.
<<Little David did have an extension cord plugged into the same outlet>>: Unless something's plugged into the other end, it's still an open circuit.

Ravenes> <<What have we found that support ur idea of creation?>>: The background radiation of the universe is what it should be if the big bang happen when we think it did. Given the speed of light, we're just now recieving light from stars that started sending well over a couple million years ago. Fossils of animals that, according to the half life of carbon 14, last breathed air well over 6000 years ago.

Revel> <<maybe it will pass down>>: I believe it goes by the mother's side.

Ravenes> <<If the pleges were coased by a volcano, Y then havn't we experianced them now, in this time?>>: No volcano in the right place.
<<But I know the truth>>: Not in this case. One can know what is the truth. One can be convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that their belief is the truth. But one cannot know the truth.
<<It is ALL true stories in it>>: Jesus was shown to be a great fan of parables. Who's to say God isn't also?
<<everyone knows Jesus existed, Y are they not beleaving what he said?>>: A man walking around the middle east 2000 years ago does not prove divinity.
<<Y don't people belave Jesus much?>>: I do believe is in good contention for dominating religion of the world.

Lila> <<archeological examples of evolutionary evidence... um, we HAVE>>: Actually, most of the fossil record comes in chunks, so most of the steps between species are pretty big jumps. It's still pretty convincing to see things like the progress of the horse.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 01:12:35 AM
IP: 165.230.240.116

Greg seemed to agree with me, and eloquently further state my beliefs... SWEET! I've actually heard (and it seems to make sens) that Satanists are fundamentalist christians gone too far.

FS-Congrats indeed. Engagement, hunh?

Ravenes- You're in my sights. Prepare yourself for a verbal barrage with deadeye aim. I didn't judge you based on your spelling, I merely mocked it. Now I have something to judge. Your comments to me were basically incoherent, if you want to make an argument, make it so that it can be understood and argued against. Example: <Ok? If u blow up a house. Will it make somthing else? NO.> Wrong answer #1. If you blow up a house, it will make a MESS. Duh. Now, giving you undue credit, I'll ASSUME that you MEANT to say that churches collapsing on worshippers means nothing. I agree. I simply find it laughable, and toss it as "injustice" to the christian bigots I have the misfortune to encounter. <The world is way to complacated for elolotion stuff.> Assuming again, "evolution"- hmm. Do you like wise doubt chemistry and mathematics? Are those too logical for you? <Y havn't we found the Linx?> The "lynx"? Those are a type of wild cat. They're found in North America, Canada, Europe... etc. ;-) On the off chance that you meant "links" as in preserved archeological examples of evolutionary evidence... um, we HAVE. Many times over. Read books. Or National Geographic. As well as educating you, it may also improve your grammer. <Or any of the other fossles or bones that people cam we evolved from?> As I said above, if you're up on scientific information, WE HAVE. <W find stuff in the Bible that is true. We found Noah's ark, Some other places.> I wrote a fanfic about a roost of gargoyles in Egypt. All of my Egyptian mythology and geography is correct. The pyramids exist. Doesn't mean my characters were actually there. Ask politicians... the best lies are based on truth. I don't argue that certain things didn't ever exist. I don't even argue against the existance of the man Jesus. There is evidence that he in fact existed. I won't argue FACT. (Hint, hint) I just don't believe he was the son of "God". <What have we found that support ur idea of creation?> Oh, not too much. Ignoring, of course, genetic proof, fossil records(read environmental change causing plants and animals to adapt in order to survive proof recorded in their dead bodies fossilized in STONE.)
Three questions for you in closing:
Is questioning authority evil? (Before you answer, think the facist authority of the Nazi party.)
Are religious texts to be taken literally in all their many translations?
When different translations contradict each other... which is right?

Think before you type. It helps.

Lila
L.A.
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 12:59:50 AM
IP: 134.173.121.83

ravness>> <<That was a joke right? And just so u don't go making fun of me on that I'll say, I'll knew it... *Shakes head.*>> yes, yes, it was a joke. it even had a little winky face ";)" if it has a winky face, its a light-hearted attempt at humour. <<Sorry if I offended u...>> no, not offended, ive heard it a million times before so dont worry. im just trying to give you advice on how to handle things in the future, and trying to tell you what has a habit of backfiring. <<What I ment was, I know u have to beleave in Jesus to go to heaven, AND I GUESS u have to bealeave in the Bible too>> thanks for clarifying <<But, i mean Boda and the other "prophets", people beleave them, so y not Jesus and what he said?>> lots of people DO happen to believe in what the christ said. lots and LOTS of people, in fact. not everyone, though, and not everyone believes in the buddha either. <<Cheap answers can do alot for u>> they also have a tendency of making people feel sour and/or cheated. if you dont have an answer that isnt cheap, why not just admit you dont know everything? <> i didnt think thats what we were debating o.O <<BUT I'd say if u read the right stuff in the Bible we wouldn't be having this argument>> um.. you might have missed the part about large religious debates between churches that have been going on for centuries? THEY all read the bible, and THEY dont agree, either.. northern ireland much? <<Yes. But who, witch ones are another matter.And for what reasons?>> in order.. most of them, and because they dont understnad whats really being said, or because they are being taught incorrectly <<What u reading of it?>> um.. all of it, starting from the beginning.. <<R u skiping some parts?>> nope, i even forced my way through john.. <<What I do is just let the Lord lead me in stuff He want's me to read>> well you see, when GOD talks to me, it causes my brain to explode so i dont do that much.. <> yes, thats what you said, but ive already read john, a few times and i like him the least. in my humble opinion, i dont think john particularly has much of a grasp of what the heck hes talking about.. but like i said.. thats my opinion.

and.. it might be a better idea to continue this one in email or IM, rather than clog up the CR. you have my address, im the "jacob" that mailed you earlier. :)
lain
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 12:51:49 AM
IP: 65.93.76.62

Greg > that's good; I have SUCH a peeve about the high place thing ; )

Forgot to mention -- Keith sighting in a preview. Some spy kid movie with whatsisname (one of those young stars, Malcolm in the Middle, maybe? not a show I watch). Keith's apparently doing another "stern authority figure" role. Director of the spy organization or somesuch. Anyway, he had a line in the preview and of course I gleefully cried "That's Keith!" and got looks from other theater patrons. I'm such a child (though I've still got 8 years on Leo, who's just a widdle baby! <g>)
Christine
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 12:24:33 AM
IP: 65.239.13.196

lain> <ooooooh allriiiiight.. i suppose ill let you off.. THIS time.. ;)> That was a joke right? And just so u don't go making fun of me on that I'll say, I'll knew it... *Shakes head.* <ill give you some friendly advice, from personal experience.. your expression of your views is coming across as very *VERY* condescending. perhaps theyre not meant that way, but thats how its coming across. saying "Ok. U can think that. But I know the truth" isnt very helpful, nor does it have the desired effect of making people say "so whats the truth then?" rather, it is more apt to make people say "screw you, pompous moron" and then promptly not listen to a word you have to say. right now, i can tell you im pretty tempted to do that. but i think you mean well, so..< *Put's hands in a whatever prosition* Sorry if I offended u... <dont you think that if you only "guess" thats what it means, maybe you should look into it a little more?? o.O> What I ment was, I know u have to beleave in Jesus to go to heaven, AND I GUESS u have to bealeave in the Bible too. <because believing that he existed and said stuff is quite a lot different from believing everything he said was true. you can believe i exist, but im sure you dont believe everything *I* say is true, do you?> *Hits hand against for head. Man o man... Ya. Ur right... But, i mean Boda and the other "prophets", people beleave them, so y not Jesus and what he said? <not to insult.. but that is a very cheap answer. much like "GOD works in mysterious ways"> Cheap answers can do alot for u. :) <people wrote the bible, not GOD. while GOD may not be, people ARE fallible and i think its reasonable to suspect bias, as with all histories. be aware that im not insinuating that the bible is a pack of lies, because it clearly isnt. however, while the core of the story, and thus the meaning may remain intact, i dont put it above humans to not embellish as they see fit.> I said, God lead them to write the Bible. That must mean he exists right?
< enjoy tangenty goodness when im tired, youll have to forgive me ;)> *Puts hands in a whatever prosition again.* Whatever... Have it ur way. :) <true enough, but in all fairness, sometimes spiritual people are equally blind.> Yes. But who, witch ones are another matter.And for what reasons? Well that's a sad prodicament. Don't know if it's true. BUT I'd say if u read the right stuff in the Bible we wouldn't be having this argument. What u reading of it? R u skiping some parts? What I do is just let the Lord lead me in stuff He want's me to read. I think I said, Read John more to learn about God more or whatever I said.
Ravenes
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 12:12:56 AM
IP: 24.86.117.45

ravness>> <> ooooooh allriiiiight.. i suppose ill let you off.. THIS time.. ;) <<Well, If I knew the right steps i could..>> ill give you some friendly advice, from personal experience.. your expression of your views is coming across as very *VERY* condescending. perhaps theyre not meant that way, but thats how its coming across. saying "Ok. U can think that. But I know the truth" isnt very helpful, nor does it have the desired effect of making people say "so whats the truth then?" rather, it is more apt to make people say "screw you, pompous moron" and then promptly not listen to a word you have to say. right now, i can tell you im pretty tempted to do that. but i think you mean well, so.. <<Meaning I guess that if u beleave the Bible and in Jesus u will go to Heaven>> dont you think that if you only "guess" thats what it means, maybe you should look into it a little more?? o.O <<pretty much everyone knows Jesus existed, Y are they not beleaving what he said>> because believing that he existed and said stuff is quite a lot different from believing everything he said was true. you can believe i exist, but im sure you dont believe everything *I* say is true, do you? <<God can do anything if we have faith>> not to insult.. but that is a very cheap answer. much like "GOD works in mysterious ways" <<God lead peopele to write the Bible>> thats fair enough, however, people wrote the bible, not GOD. while GOD may not be, people ARE fallible and i think its reasonable to suspect bias, as with all histories. be aware that im not insinuating that the bible is a pack of lies, because it clearly isnt. however, while the core of the story, and thus the meaning may remain intact, i dont put it above humans to not embellish as they see fit. <<isn't this erelevent to what were talking about? Sort of..>> yeah.. sort-of.. i enjoy tangenty goodness when im tired, youll have to forgive me ;) <<But peope just are "blind." Spirtully.>> true enough, but in all fairness, sometimes spiritual people are equally blind. <<Have u tryed reading the Bible?>> i probably read it more than you do ;) (seriously.. i read it A LOT) <<Read John first if ur goina>> i detest john.. :P i like mark better. it seems more pure to me..
lain
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 11:32:05 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

Mooncat> Ok. Yes. It's good Chis didn't get shocked. I won't take u into this "battle" if u don't want to. Though I would be glad to help with any questions.

lain><well.. that depends on your opinion of modern art.> Haha. Serusly. Not to get u mad or anything. <why is it that the "v" key is so far away from the "l" key? i dont understand THAT typo..> I think I was typing in the dark at that time... <the short answer is *NOBODY KNOWS THE TRUTH.> Ok. U can think that. But I know the truth. It says in the Bible "the Truth shell set u free." Meaning I guess that if u beleave the Bible and in Jesus u will go to Heaven. <we might all THINK we know the truth, but the fact that were having this discussion means the truth remains unknown.> For u mabey but not for me. We could argue about this for ever and non of us would change the others point of view. Well, If I knew the right steps i could... But i'm trying. <for example. i dont think anyone would argue the bible isnt a pretty darned accurate history book.> It is a history book. Ur right on that part. BUT! It is ALL true stories in it. <last i heard, they didnt even know which mountain it landed on, never mind finding the big boat itself..> Well I thought we did. It's on mount Ararat in Turkey. The goverment won't let the people go up there cuz he doesn't want God to be prooven right. <HAT ones pretty interesting.. poor catholics ;) but teasing aside.. in all honesty i dont think the fact that jesus existed is much in doubt anymore. <I guess. But my point I suposse is that pretty much everyone knows Jesus existed, Y are they not beleaving what he said? I mean the guy who made up other religions, people beleave them, Y don't people belave Jesus much? He was history. <that involves astrophysics and all that stuff.< Ok... <as for "red seas" well.. if you read the hebrew, we could argue the translation.. suffice it to say that king james' men were dolts and "yam suph" actually means "sea of reeds" or "sea of seaweed" not "red sea." (yam meaning any large body of water, including both fresh and saltwater, and suph meaning reeds or rushes.. the exact same term is applied in exodus 2:3,5 to the basket moses is placed in as an infant) as i recall,> There are differant tranalaton yes. but they all mean the same thing. Was that what u were getting at? Correct me if i'm wrong please. <the red sea averages about 150 miles across, and i dont remember a miracle about people walking really fast recorded in exodus.> They didn't have to. God can do anything if we have faith. It says inthe bible taht if we have faith as small as a mustered seed God can do things for us. And I heard that a mustered seed was like the smallest seed in the world. Or,whatever... <the israelites were not really good at recording location.. (remember the ark that they havent found yet?) and the cities mentioned, Ramses and Pithom, (Exodus 1:11) have not actually been positively identified yet, however most people put them near the eastern nile delta... which just happens to have an abundance of shallow marshy/reedy lakes. that still leaves the "walked across on dry land" part, and all the drowning.. however, "sea of reeds"> God lead peopele to write the Bible. <it also might be worth mentioning all the times where the sea is referred to as having been "conquered" and that "yamm" is the name of a diety in one of the religions in the surrounding area who just happens to represent chaos in association with water/flooding. the myth involves ba'al (the god of rain and springtime) conquering yamm (who is usually represented as a dragon) this is not to say the israelites constructed the "red sea" story completely from this myth, but rather to suggest that they used the known cultural framework of the area to interpret their experience with their "living GOD". <> you cant. you physically CAN NOT KNOW it is true.> Hmmm. Don't get it. isn't this erelevent to what were talking about? Sort of... <certainly you can BELIEVE, but you can't KNOW. knowing is objective. belief is something you have within yourself. <<<we can�t get any empirical evidence that is complete proof one way or another.> We have lots of times>> perhaps, but as with most things, often the answers we find only lead to more questions. as i said before, if either side could be "proven" beyond a shadow of a doubt, we wouldnt be discussing this now, would we?> No, we wouldn't be discussing this right now. BUT I think it can be prooven. But peope just are "blind." Spirtully. Have u tryed reading the Bible? U might have covered that part already... Read John first if ur goina, To get a grip of what God is about.

Ravenes
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 10:50:41 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

Re: God/Divine intervention debate

I like to keep an open mind about these things. I respect both sides. (Although the "do you really believe that your son is important enough ......" seemed a bit mean)

-----END OF THAT-----

My birthday is this week. I will be "3 more years to 30" (27)on Friday. I'm getting old. :(

::runs away and hides from the 30 and overs in the CR::

Congrats FS and LM

In other news, I'm getting lots of experience installing Linux at work. (Mandrake 8.1 if anyone's interested) All or low end recycled machines will use Linux instead of Windows - so we don't have to buy any more licenses.

--------------------

Josh:<>So much for AP and playing with "inverted circles" :p.

Let's see: Memory check:

f'(dy dx)/ blah blah derrivitive blah blah limit blah blah, flashbacks to using "Maple v5" on a PowerPC, 7 years ago.

Nope, not much of it's left. :)

JaKaL:<<The Two To... did i just think about that movie b/c of what i just said?>> I wonder how that one on-line petition is going.

Spacebabie:<> Ferel too?

Leo
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 10:39:12 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

ravness>> <<Ok? If u blow up a house. Will it make somthing else?>> well.. that depends on your opinion of modern art ;) <<The world is way to complacated for elolotion stuff>> why is it that the "v" key is so far away from the "l" key? i dont understand THAT typo.. anyways, in point of fact, the world ISNT too complicated for evolution stuff. admittedly, however, we dont know all the information. at this point, it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in creationism. the short answer is *NOBODY KNOWS THE TRUTH* we might all THINK we know the truth, but the fact that were having this discussion means the truth remains unknown. <<Yet. W find stuff in the Bible that is true>> yes, and we find many other histories to be accurate as well. the finding of the city of troy, for example. i dont think anyone would argue the bible isnt a pretty darned accurate history book. <<We found Noah's ark>> last i heard, they didnt even know which mountain it landed on, never mind finding the big boat itself.. <<We've found Jesus's "Brothers" coffin I think>> THAT ones pretty interesting.. poor catholics ;) but teasing aside.. in all honesty i dont think the fact that jesus existed is much in doubt anymore. <<What have we found that support ur idea of creation?>> that involves astrophysics and all that stuff. <<And the parting of the seas, could not have been done by wind if that's what ur thinking>> as for "red seas" well.. if you read the hebrew, we could argue the translation.. suffice it to say that king james' men were dolts and "yam suph" actually means "sea of reeds" or "sea of seaweed" not "red sea." (yam meaning any large body of water, including both fresh and saltwater, and suph meaning reeds or rushes.. the exact same term is applied in exodus 2:3,5 to the basket moses is placed in as an infant) as i recall, the red sea averages about 150 miles across, and i dont remember a miracle about people walking really fast recorded in exodus. the israelites were not really good at recording location.. (remember the ark that they havent found yet?) and the cities mentioned, Ramses and Pithom, (Exodus 1:11) have not actually been positively identified yet, however most people put them near the eastern nile delta... which just happens to have an abundance of shallow marshy/reedy lakes. that still leaves the "walked across on dry land" part, and all the drowning.. however, "sea of reeds" IS the actual translation, not conjecture. it also might be worth mentioning all the times where the sea is referred to as having been "conquered" and that "yamm" is the name of a diety in one of the religions in the surrounding area who just happens to represent chaos in association with water/flooding. the myth involves ba'al (the god of rain and springtime) conquering yamm (who is usually represented as a dragon) this is not to say the israelites constructed the "red sea" story completely from this myth, but rather to suggest that they used the known cultural framework of the area to interpret their experience with their "living GOD". <> you cant. you physically CAN NOT KNOW it is true. no-one can. certainly you can BELIEVE, but you can't KNOW. knowing is objective. belief is something you have within yourself. <<<we can�t get any empirical evidence that is complete proof one way or another.> We have lots of times>> perhaps, but as with most things, often the answers we find only lead to more questions. as i said before, if either side could be "proven" beyond a shadow of a doubt, we wouldnt be discussing this now, would we?

mooncat>> <<Not understanding something doesn't make it holy or more true>> no, just makes it more complicated.. ;) <<one cannot say it's the only religion that people don't understand either>> i agree. <> i have to disagree, but on the surface, i will admit it does seem that way, yes. <<the characters in it come off as extremely self interested and they do a lot of ethically questionable things>> of course. theyre human, like the rest of us.
lain
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 10:17:08 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

CHRISTINE> Don't worry, Saruman is not being dropped from a high place. It was a prank played by Peter Jackson on people coming in and spying on the set. Gotta admire the guy for that ;)
Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 09:51:11 PM
IP: 216.179.1.80

Fire Storm and Lady Mystic > congratulations! Keep us posted on all the happy news!

Two Towers > if they frickin' drop Saruman from a frickin' high place, I will shriek right there in the theater. Isn't it enough that that's how Gollum meets his end? ::beats head on desk:: No more villains falling from high places!

Speaking of which, saw the new Bond movie yesterday. Had fun. Not too bad. Enjoyed the fencing and Moneypenny's bit most of all.

Godiva > I'm glad your kid is all right. I know ever since I became a parent, my every worst nightmare was supplanted with those kind of fears.

Religious stuff > I don't believe much one way or the other; I just find it makes for interesting themes to explore in fiction. Had an idea recently for a horror novel bound to offend. Not my intention, more of an "I know it's going to, but I have to do it anyway because the idea's just soooo neat!" Now, when I write the scathing "Fools, Atheists, and Women" tell-all Mason-bashing book, that one WILL be intended to piss people off ... except I doubt I'll ever really go through with it.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 09:44:04 PM
IP: 65.239.13.88

God and stuff -- hmmm... I don't think not being to completely understand a religion is a logical equivalent to it being a true religion. Not understanding something doesn't make it holy or more true. As for understanding Christianity, one cannot say it's the only religion that people don't understand either. I don't understand Satanism, and a lot of other religions, which doesn't make them the one true religion either. In fact of all religions, I think Christianity is one of the easier to understand, but I won't say why because it isn't really complimentary to Christianity to say why it's understandable, and I don't want to start a religious flame war. But suffice to say, I've read the bible. I got a really great one that has the original translations and the original hebrew as well as the English... and well, reading it, the characters in it come off as extremely self interested and they do a lot of ethically questionable things.

I'm glad Godiva's son is well and healthy. And be it an act of god or simple dumb luck, it's a result we can all be thankful for, to whatever or whoever we give thanks to.

ja ne
Mooncat
MC
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 09:21:09 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Ed: <it was just too disturbing.> What was desterbing about it? I could help u on it. <a product of its times.> It's a product of all times. If it was just something that appyed for the time it was written, it would be out dated and people wouldn't want to read it. But people DO wanta read it. So, what does tht tell u? <or at least contemporary folk stories.> People are prooving that the Bible is true. And not just some parts eather. What ones do u think are made up? See? Christanety can never be fully understood. I guess thats what makes it good. All the Human made religions, we can understand, exept ones that are centered around the Bible. < My favourite is that a BBC series next year is going to explain how the plagues of Egypt were actually caused by a nearby volcanic eruption which would have caused all of the plagues in pretty much that order, as well as explaining the parting of the seas.> Ya... Well, If the pleges were coased by a volcano, Y then havn't we experianced them now, in this time? Hu? And the parting of the seas, could not have been done by wind if that's what ur thinking. noone would have survived that. But, that did.
<did the volcano erupt, or did God make the volcano erupt to help Moses?> I don't think there are volcanos in Egypt. So that can't answer it. <Don�t forget though that just because you say you �know� something doesn�t mean it�s an objective fact.> I know it's true. But it's u who doesn't want to beleave it. If u don't want to, i will feel sorry for u when u leave this Earth... <just looking at The Bible as a literary work there�s no reason to follow its assumptions of a good/evil paradigm when the content might suggest something different. I think that Greg�s argument is interesting and fairly persuasive.> Ni if u really look at it, It has truth it it. <f God made man, who made God�?> *Smilles.* No one made God. That's what we can't understand. Our minds can't understand it. But those who are in heaven I prosume can understand. <we can�t get any empirical evidence that is complete proof one way or another.> We have lots of times. Look in the librery, no RV somethings, in the news...
Ravenes
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 08:48:17 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

Greg: It's been recommended to it by all and sundry (mostly when they're trying - and failing - to take me to task for criticising the movie ;)). I'm not so bothered by it needing to be closer to the book actually - that might have helped it get through some places, but there�s not really much of an issue for me with cuts. My problem is its sledgehammer subtlety, the characterisation which is non-existent (okay, time factors granted, but there was time to waste on smothering Cate Blanchett's performance with special effects or to have that obligatory action figure orc at the end) or even downright obnoxious - I mean, could Merry & Pippin be any more stupid? And how about Aragorn's final encounter with Frodo where he doesn't have qualms about sending Frodo off solo into Mordor? I mean, I have no problems with the characters being rewritten to be more concise and to fit different media. I do have problems with them being written to look plain idiotic which is how a number of the characters in the first film came across.

Ravenes: Well that's fine if you believe in God. I don't, and I can completely sympathise with Greg�s point of view - I had to read the Bible this summer (actually I skimmed most of what I could get away with because it was just too disturbing � it is after all, a product of its times) and it certainly had a profound effect on me. Not a good one though. That's not to say that the Bible isn't based on some real events or at least contemporary folk stories. My favourite is that a BBC series next year is going to explain how the plagues of Egypt were actually caused by a nearby volcanic eruption which would have caused all of the plagues in pretty much that order, as well as explaining the parting of the seas. Which leaves the question - did the volcano erupt, or did God make the volcano erupt to help Moses? I�d go for the former which makes perfect sense to me. I suspect that you�d take a different view but that�s okay. Don�t forget though that just because you say you �know� something doesn�t mean it�s an objective fact. Frankly, I don�t believe you can objectify evil in the first place since it really is such a subjective concept, but even if you could, just looking at The Bible as a literary work there�s no reason to follow its assumptions of a good/evil paradigm when the content might suggest something different. I think that Greg�s argument is interesting and fairly persuasive (and quite new to me) even if I suspect that in the context of the Bible at least, Greg is overstating it (probably intentionally). It certainly satisfies the problem I have with considering a deity guilty on numerous counts of genocide (cf. the flood) being considered �loving� (not, admittedly, that I take the concept of God seriously for purely practical reasons, such as �if God made man, who made God�?). Of course, it�s misleading to see this in terms of �right� and �wrong� because we can�t get any empirical evidence that is complete proof one way or another.

Vash: Well I guess the same is true of �Bad Guys�, but for �Pendragon� outlines ideally have enough information so that the plot and even some important bits of dialogue are made clear but still enough so that you have room to be creative while writing (albeit I suppose running the risk of conflicting with other material if they don�t know the breakdowns and arc plans well enough so I don�t know that being too off-the-wall is an ideal). Far be it from me to second guess Lain of course.

Godiva: Kiefer Sutherland as Castaway would be very cool, but hopefully he�ll be playing Jack Bauer (or at least, be on �24� in some role) for a good many years yet so he might have to put his �Gargoyles� career on hold. :)
Ed - [ed@steelclaw.org]
London, England
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 08:21:08 PM
IP: 131.111.8.96

Hey recruitment drive.. *sees announcement all the way through* Ohh... Writers... *shoves her hands in her pockets* I'll only draw... It's easier... *on the back of her head prints out "Writer's Block" and leaves*
Heather - [Kheetor84@cox.net]
Warner Robins, GA, USA
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 08:09:29 PM
IP: 68.99.148.20

I ususlly don't like religious debates, for my own reasons, but but it looks like it keeps the room moving.

My opinion, to start with. I believe in a God type being, why, because I was raised as such and I think it's nice to think there is something more. When I'm six feet under I'd like to think the most important part of me, my soul and mind, is not six feet under too. As for divine intervention, I should believe in this, but I have to aggree with Lain, what makes saving my worthless ass so great and not her mother's? Answer, timing, luck, a $%#@ load or needles and IV tubes and cathoders and being prodded like a human experiment. Glad I don't remember it but I sure have enough scars as reminders. Anyhow. I believe people have to pull their own weight in this world. you cannot sit around hoping and praying God will make things all better when you are not willing to help yourself. Good things don't just happen, people make them happen. Be it success, love, or just taking a chance to live in general.

Enough on that.

Almost done with classes. Finished my painting critique today. He loved the final project, and at the time I was thinking to myself, "Yeah, you better like it after all the @##$% I went through to put this thing together." Overall he said that it was a good semester and probably A material, which means actually a B because art teachers can't boost your confidence else give you the big head. The rest of the week is fairly smooth, gives me time to finish fic, do some Bad Guys work and get ready for the finals next week.

Fire Storm- Yes, back massages are the way to go, plus you can do even more than just relax the muscles.

GregX- Running your own Thai slut racket, well, at least your mother can't say you don't have a hobby. ];)

Spacebabie- I don't think my Dad will ever go bald. He's going to be 48 December 7th and still has no gray hair on the top of us head. His sideburns and if he had a beard would be gray but not on the top, maybe it will pass down :D

"The yeast in Cheatoes means that if it were to be stored away for many years it would grow and change shape. hink about that next time you are snacking."

-The day my Biology teacher ruined cheatoes forever for me-
Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
denton, tx
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 08:06:37 PM
IP: 129.120.173.67

vash>> OK, certainly. Clarification ahoy!

There are closer to two (2) pieces which currently do not have any writers at all. All the rest are currently being written by 2 people (with varying degrees of help from 2 others). I am sure you can understand how painful a process this is.

However, the MAXIMUM number of stories which would be unloaded on a new writer is 2. We do not want to put undue pressure on any member of our staff, however, we must balance this with the need to get the stories released.

They would need to be written sooner, rather than later. The sooner they are finished, and through edits, the sooner they can be released. We COULD do it all with the current staff.. but it might not be seen until this time next year. This recruitment is an attempt to speed things up.

All outlines are fairly fleshed out, and most of the current staff is available for clarification of details both through email and through various instant messengers.

It would be the author's preference as to whether they would like to work on one fic by themselves, or with other people. Co-writing is certainly an option, though it would depend on how many responses are received and the level of committment they can offer.
lain
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 07:35:04 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

Lain> It would help if you clarified what kind of committment you're looking for. If you get two new people to help out, what do you expect would be the number of fics each has to write (are we talking something closer to two or something closer to five?). And will the assignments be staggered or will the same writer be expected to work on several fics in a row? How fleshed out are the outlines? Finally, do you expect a trend where more than one author gets put on a fic, or will writers get fics all to themselves?
Vash
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 06:48:16 PM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Josh> So waht if i'm a "God nut." At least I know that He's acshely real and that I can count on Him for stuff I can't count on anyone else for.

Lila> Ok? If u blow up a house. Will it make somthing else? NO. The world is way to complacated for elolotion stuff. Like. Y havn't we found the Linx? Or any of the other fossles or bones that people cam we evolved from? Yet. W find stuff in the Bible that is true. We found Noah's ark, Some other places. We've found Jesus's "Brothers" coffin I think. What have we found that support ur idea of creation?

Greg Bishansky> <God is a malevolent tyrant. Lucifer is not a villain, but rather the victim of history's greatest smear campaign.> If u read the Bible u must know that waht u said is wrong. <He wants us to enjoy our lives, and explore new ideas.And for the record.> Saten is the Prince of darkness, An evil person. How do u ever get he is good and loving and all that?

Ravenes
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 06:01:43 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

FS, stick death is that site with the stick ppl... of death..... dude... have i gone that crazy? oh what does that matter?! CONGRATS on the engagement!

oh crap i forgot lilo and stitch came out today!!! BRB
i gotta buy it or i'll die!!
stEphEn aka JacKaL
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 05:51:47 PM
IP: 152.163.189.68

PS.. in a COMPLETELY non-official capacity..>> Hyperion>> <> triton has a thick layer of nitrogen ice that covers its surface. this ice has the same insulating effect as the atmosphere on earth, so as the sun warms the surface of the moon, the temperature below the ice crust rises, and the lower levels of ice begin to melt. when pockets of gas begin to build up, they explode, causing geysers (volcanoes) up to 8km high, which shower nitrogen snow over the nearby ice. so now you know about triton... if theres anything ELSE youd like to know... ];)

ed>> <<Damn those lazy TGS writers. They�re probably sunning themselves in a resort in Thailand or something>> damn straight! what with our connections to the thailand mafia and all..
lain
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 05:46:42 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

***********ATTENTION!!! TGS RECRUITMENT DRIVE ANNOUNCEMENT**********

The "Bad Guys" series is looking for two writers to flesh out their writing team for season one.

I must stress that this position is for WRITING SLAVE LABOUR **ONLY!!!** Accepted members will NOT, I repeat NOT have ANY input whatsoever in the content of the *first season* of "Bad Guys". This has a distinct possibility, however, of changing for the second season and beyond.

What is being asked for are people who have the time and ability to contribute their services so that the series may air as soon as humanly possible.

If you are interested in helping with WRITING ONLY, please send an email with the subject line "ATTN: BAD GUYS RECRUITMENT DRIVE" to tgs_info@yahoo.com.

With this email, please include a written resume, in story-scene format, of 750-1500 words. Please choose from one of the three topics below:

1) Thailog stole Demona's company and destroyed her new life. Now she's returned to settle accounts.

2) Matthew Bluestone finds himself torn between loyalty to his friends and the Illuminati's demands. Disillusioned, he uses a chance encounter with MacBeth to get some advice.

3) Fresh from a battle, the Ultrapack finds itself hiding out in a third-world airport hanger with absolutely nothing to do.

**VERY LARGE HINT** it would be best if these contained both meaningful dialogue AND action. Showing knowledge of past events in the TGS universe would also be considered a DEFINATE plus.

You have *ONE WEEK* to complete this mission, should you choose to accept it. The drive will end at Midnight on Tuesday the 10th of December. We need to know a) your level of committment, and b) how well you can write under pressure 8-)

PS.. these are not spoilers ;)

************END TGS RECRUITMENT DRIVE ANNOUNCEMENT************

lain - [tgs_info@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 05:39:39 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

I myself am not a relgious person either, as everyone already knows. But I have read the bible. And the impression I've walked away with is the opposite of what most people have read. If these beings exist than I fully believe that God is a malevolent tyrant. Lucifer is not a villain, but rather the victim of history's greatest smear campaign. He is a heroic figure who was the first to challenge God's tyranny. Lucifer is a humanist. He wants us to enjoy our lives, and explore new ideas.And for the record, I am not a Satanist. I find Satanists to be truly pathetic.

There's an essay here which pretty much sums up my thoughts on Lucifer and organized religion in general. All religions, not just one. Click on my name to read it.

And yes, my favorite comic book is Vertigo's "Lucifer" series, written by Mike Carey.

ED> You're just asking for it, aren't you? I actually thought Peter Jackson improved Tolkien's story in many places. BTW, have you seen the Extended Edition on video or DVD? There's a lot more character moments in it, and it is closer to the book and a better movie. You should see it, cause I'd love to read your thoughts on it.
Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 05:33:22 PM
IP: 216.179.1.80

Wasn't going to comment.
Can't help it.
If "God" exists, and takes interest in human affairs... God's got one hell of a sense of humor or is completely sadistic.
Churches routinely burn or collapse on worshippers.
The catholic church... scandal much? The whole organized form of THAT religion was based around the elimination of competition.
Organized Judiasm, particularly the more devout sects, (hassidic, orthodox, etc.) are likewise bigoted and often cruel towards even other members of their religion, if less devout.
I'm not a big fan of orgainzed religion. Having philosophies and beliefs is fine, as long as one doesn't try to impose those beliefs on other people, or other destructive acts in the name of religion.
Expressions of belief are fine, and if you believe "god" saved you, or your loved ones, more power to you. As long as you don't believe it makes you the "chosen" crusader for your system. ;-)
-keepin' it brief, I've probaly offended people anyway. And, for the record, my opinions are born of having a Jewish ma who became agnostic-ish, a completely non religious dad, and enough education in the sciences to put my faith in evolution, not some big warm fuzzy daddy-wanna-be in the sky.

Lila
L.A.
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 03:56:07 PM
IP: 134.173.121.83

hyperion>> <<Ok, so what is it with the anti-religious sentiment here?>> not anti-religious, on my part anyways. its just that particular sentiment.. <<It's pretty damned proactive to go out of you way to post your annoyance, irritation and/or hatred, of someone�s expressed religious views>> is it not accepted in this room that people post when they are irritated by something, mr qu'ran? ;) <<So someone feels that God takes a active role in her life and the life of her family...how does this effect you? More accurately, why does it effect you to the point you have to go out of your way to call attention to your stance against it?>> it makes me very, very angry. and frustrated, thats why. <<I mean, really, what? You're afraid the Christian Right is infiltrating the room in little "sleeper posts" and will eventually rise up and burn the webserver because of references to "black magic" in the series?>> no, darlin. im afraid of the implications of saying that GOD saved someones little child from being electrocuted because their mother prayed.. because if this is true, it means that GOD DID NOT save all the OTHER little children whos parents pray just as hard. and im sorry, i just cant deal with that one.

if you think GOD works in your life, then fine. great, even. but dont go telling me that GOD "saved" someone because someone else "prayed" - or worse - because "they must have a greater purpose" (which is just about the same as saying that GOD "felt like it") you dont have ANY idea how hard i prayed for my mothers health, but in the scenario created by this belief, my prayers were obviously not "good enough" for GOD.. either that or her life was worthless in HIS eyes.. and this seems to contradict everything ive ever been told by "christians" about how GOD works. granted, theyre not qualified to know how GOD works any more than my father (the atheist king of the universe), but whenever i come across someone with this belief, i feel sick and disturbed. you want me to have "faith" in a being that operates on whim just like that? sorry, dont think so..

lain
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 03:24:47 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

Just a thought--Kiefer Sutherland as Jon Castaway.

Replies:

Ravenes: << God works alright!>> Yes, He sure does. << Hope to see ya in Heaven some day!>> Same here J. <<And remember to Thank God that Chris didn't get hurt.>> Oh, believe me, I do. I think Chris is going to be very tired of me hugging and kissing him all the time. LOL

Gabriel: << Divine Intervention is a truly awesome thing to witness.>> It sure is. << God Bless you and your family.>> Thank you, and may God bless you and your family as well.

Gside: << hardly any amperage would go through flesh.>> Well, he did feel something if he was rinsing his finger in the sink.

Josh: <<do you really believe that your son is important enough for an all-powerful evil deity to bother trying to kill?>> Yes, I do. From what I know of Satan, he�s a desperate being. He believes that in order to shake my faith in the Lord, he has to attack not only me, but my family as well. <> You would if you knew that your time was limited and that you would be soundly defeated by an all-powerful good deity. You�d be trying to win people over to your side. <> There is, as was demonstrated my husband when he told my mom what happened. <<that doesn't involve god.>> Your opinion. <<Perhaps the air was humid>> Humidity? What�s that? The air inside our apartment is DRY. <<Perhaps something else in the outlet relieved the charge>> Little David did have an extension cord plugged into the same outlet. <<Perhaps your son used a toy to push the key in.>> I didn�t see anything that he could�ve used to push the keys in. <<That wasn't funny at all, FYI.>> Sorry, didn�t mean to offend. If it�s any consolation, I hate Valley-speak. <<So basically you've only dealt with stupid people in the valley's ghetto>> Yeah, pretty much, except my baby sister goes there and she isn�t stupid. She�s the minority. :-)

Fire Storm-<<SO LM and I are now officially engaged >> Many congratulations! When�s the wedding?

Hyperion-<<Ok, so what is it with the anti-religious sentiment here? It's pretty damned proactive to go out of you way to post your annoyance, irritation and/or hatred, of someone�s expressed religious views.>> That�s what I was thinking. I know that there are some people here who don�t have the same beliefs as I do, but I sure wouldn�t feel the need to express my disregard for their beliefs. I may not agree with them, but I sure as hell wouldn�t post anything like some people did. I only posted what I did because I�m still in shock. My little boy should be dead, but he isn�t. <<So someone feels that God takes a active role in her life and the life of her family...how does this effect you?>> EXACTLY. Thanks, Hyperion. <<call attention to your stance against it?>> Believe me, that post was not an attempt to convert anyone to Christianity. If I was going to try to convert anyone, I�d send them an email explaining why I feel their beliefs are wrong and explain what Christianity has to offer.

Godiva - [renee_prater@rocketmail.com]
Montclair, CA, USA
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 03:23:02 PM
IP: 24.52.251.66

Green Baron: There really is no credible opposition to Blair so even though we�re heading into war, strikes are sweeping the country, the transport system has collapsed, taxes are shooting through the roof, hospital waiting lists are longer, the education system has become a laughing stock, students will soon be charged top-up fees on top of their normal fees simply for attending good universities, Labour will probably stay in for a while yet. I guess he�ll probably make way for Gordon Brown at some point soon though � word is they had an agreement that Blair would let Brown succeed him after two terms. I don�t know if that�s true (and even if it was, it was probably another lie on Blair�s part) but that possibility is there. The only up side to that would be that Brown is quite eurosceptic so we wouldn�t have the threat of being pushed further into the Junior Soviet Brigade under him.

Hyperion: Yeah, the shorter, more infrequent seasons suck. Damn those lazy TGS writers. They�re probably sunning themselves in a resort in Thailand or something.

Greg: *Restrains himself from commenting on Tolkein and Jackson* ;)

(Well actually, I probably will go and see the film because I am curious. I just won�t make the mistake of expecting it to be any good this time: that way if he�s improved on his last outing it�s a bonus!)
Ed - [ed@steelclaw.org]
London, England
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 03:22:18 PM
IP: 131.111.8.96

ah yes...another day. And really that's all I can say about it. Nothing special, just counting down until my brief vacation to Pittsburgh for much nookie and jello wrestling. Not at the same time, as far as I know.
Too much information? Probably, but, I'm feeling jolly today.

Fire Storm><Behold the glory of... SCIENTOLOGY>I'll have you know I'm waging a guerilla war against the particular cult. "Hyperion Cultist Extermination Squad: You hate 'em, we crate 'em"

Imzadi><That's sick> You act like I'm responsible for it. It's all in the Qur'an. Really.
<would be the size of a building>I know. You have no idea how hard it was get all the Technic pieces to work together. I even gave the exterior extra plating of 1x1s so it would have been a bit ablative. Problem was, I didn't realize how much I'd be relying on the autocannon once the optics for the ER laser got knocked out of alignment. Hence, my lack of 2x4s was my downfall.
<I'd rather be mugged> That can be arranged. When will you be carrying large sums of money again?
And you're speaking as which all powerful, all-knowing deity? I'm just wondering. I could use some good stock tips.

Greg> And how much would one of these "stacks of books" cost, BTW?

Gside><Spacebabie> <<Clearwater>>: Credence?> Revival?

JacKaL> Two words: Daisy Cutter.

Ok, so what is it with the anti-religious sentiment here? It's pretty damned proactive to go out of you way to post your annoyance, irritation and/or hatred, of someone�s expressed religious views. So someone feels that God takes a active role in her life and the life of her family...how does this effect you? More accurately, why does it effect you to the point you have to go out of your way to call attention to your stance against it?
I mean, really, what? You're afraid the Christian Right is infiltrating the room in little "sleeper posts" and will eventually rise up and burn the webserver because of references to "black magic" in the series?

*******************************
"Interesting. Do you know that the odds of this particular combination are 5000 to 1 against?"
"Lennier!"
"Yes, Londo?"
"Stop that."
"Ah, does that mean I won again?"
Hyperion
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 01:59:09 PM
IP: 151.199.242.217

BISHANSKY - Thanks for the info. So it looks as if we're going to be seeing the Mumakil and Fell Beasts in the movie, then? That sounds great!
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 09:06:09 AM
IP: 67.28.88.167

Ok, one of those lines made absolutely NO sense!

Imzadi: <This is starting to sound less like nursing and more like your dominatrix training>
"Are these leather restraints really necessary?"

There. Better.
Fire STorm (again)
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 03:46:04 AM
IP: 66.72.186.61

Ok, time for a little filk...
(Sung to the tune "It's my life" by whoever sang it)
She's my wife
For now and forever...

Ok, that's all I know about the song, but the lyrics are kinda true.
I asked LM. She said yes. I gave her a nice ring.
SO LM and I are now officially engaged.

Imzadi: <Which I don't>
Come on... Don't you just dream of pulling up those stockings and singing Sweet Transvestite? ;)
<My roommate usually goes to sleep when I wake up in the morning>
At least someone is always up!
<Who cares? I'll be the undisputed dictator of the world. I guess if I institute sterilization, then screwing licenses become uncessary>
Definitely. Sterilization, then let the populous f$ck their brains out!
<That's okay, it'll take you at most 3 hours each to read the books>
No doubt. Hell, it only took me a 8 - 12 hours to read the entire 2001 Anthology.
<That's okay, it'll take you at most 3 hours each to read the books>
"Are these leather restraints really necessary?"
<Me too. But its usually not to eat them>
Kill'em and Eat'em
<This CR could use a few more of those.>
The world could use a lot more of those!
<BEHOLD THE GLORY OF...SCIENCE!>
Behold the glory of... SCIENTOLOGY!

Christine: <have been viewing that 100 mark as the boundary to "mostly retired.">
So, we will be reading your stories for years to come, right? ;)

JacKaL: 
Huh? Not familiar with that site.
(OR maybe I am, if they make flash animations)

Gside: <And when you said plural, I got thinking on multiple>
Hmm... Well, there ARE a lot of wizards there... and a lot of familiars... and all those owl messengers need some lovin!
<With tentacles and lesbian tendacies.>
Hmm... a female tentacle monster... with strapons!
<Oh, kill>
PERMISSION! Eat them up, yum!
<Granted, I am male, but I am sexy enough for it to not matter, for I am a sexy, sexy man.>
Men don't count. We are like that by definition!

Spacebabie: <Then rub lotion into them and give them a massage. Women like that>
Back massages are better.
<Check out the guy�s name :Severino Antinori, It sounds a little like Sevarius>
I know. But that guy has GOT to be this world's Sevarius!
Mistletoe: Well, I have some of my children specially crafted with Mistletoe DNA in them.
SO watch out! Facehugger Mistletoe!
Where is my FaceHuggies picture when I need it...

Greg Bishansky: <::Restrains himself from commenting on God and Lucifer::>
COMMENT! COMMENT!!!!!
Fire Storm
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 03:33:11 AM
IP: 66.72.186.61

Woke up at the buttcrack of dawn this morning to drive up to Berkeley. On the plus side, we made good time and I had a chance to go see my advisor and my structural analysis professor.

Turns out I need 11 units to graduate next semester, not 10. I don't get all the units I'm supposed to for the intro calc classes because of my AP credits. Bitter! Now I have to find some sucker to give me 1 unit! I think I'll just sign up to show up for my friend's mac programming class. Even if I'm not a programmer.

I also found out that my 5th upper division technical elective can be ANY engineering class, it doesn't have to be civil engineering. Sweet.

Spacebabie: <<Took more quizzes>>: Links, der. <<That is why I don�t shop the day after Thanksgiving>>: Wish I did that. But I did score 25% off star wars lego! <<Ha two days>>: Bitch. <<Brittney Spears? Eliza Dushku?>>: Sure, maybe. <<So how was she?>>: I wish. <>: True, but then I had to pack it all up since I won't be home for 2 more weeks.

Hyperion: <<while the women did the dishes>>: That's the best part! <<he did have many, many wives, some younger than 10, and enjoyed them all>>: That's sick. <>: No you didn't. You may have built a "TO-scale" mech, but full scale would be the size of a building. <<nitrogen volcanoes on Triton>>: I'm one up on you. I didn't even know there WERE nitrogen volcanos on Triton. <<it'll hit you on the back of the head with a large stick when you least expect it>>: I'd rather be mugged.

Godiva: <>: I have a question for you. I know you're a parent and all, but do you really believe that your son is important enough for an all-powerful evil deity to bother trying to kill? I certainly wouldn't waste MY time. <<The tips of the keys are black and the holes where the key ring goes is black>>: I bet there is a perfectly logical scientific explanation for this that doesn't involve god. Perhaps the air was humid and made for a good conductor, dissipating the electric charge. Perhaps something else in the outlet relieved the charge before it got to your son (like, say, a ground). Perhaps your son used a toy to push the key in. <<Like, omigawd! You're like, from the Valley>>: That wasn't funny at all, FYI. <<my only experience with the Valley is that I had an ex-boyfriend who went to CSUN>>: So basically you've only dealt with stupid people in the valley's ghetto 8-).

DPH: <<Sometimes it's the boss's fault for procrastinating in giving you the assignment>>: Doesn't matter. <<So you're ok assuming geniuses will eventually crack your passwords/codes?>>: I recognize that there are people smarter than I. I just don't recognize that there are many of them, and most will want to work for me. <<Who's going to enforce that rule if you're really determined?>>: My best friend. <<won't it be better policy to keep some advisors in the dark about some things where no single advisor has the complete picture in case one of them was captured?>>: I will rule the world. Who are they gonna tell?

Ravenes: <<Yes. God works alright>>: Okay, you wanted me to judge you on your personality instead of your spelling? Fine. You're one of those god-nuts, so STFU.

Greg: <<Restrains himself from commenting on God and Lucifer>>: I'm not an admin, so I'll flame for you! <>: I'm betting much bloodier than it was in the book. <<Now if you'll excuse me I have some brats I need to pack up. Um, I mean stacks... stacks of... books. Yes that should do>>: LOL!

Todd: <<his playing the part of Gimli>>: I thought that voice sounded familiar!

JacKaL: <<you nimrod, you know what i meant>>: Yeah probably. <<don't get ur panties in a bunch>>: Boxers! <<did i just think about that movie b/c of what i just said?>>; LOL!

Lain: <<screw you, man. screw you>>: LOL bitter much? <<which he uses to import pornography from thailand and to export small caucasian children he kidnaps and sells into slavery to the thailand mafia>>: Oh, of course! Wish he'd let me in on that business.

Gside: <<Jay is an amateur>>: But he masturbates more than anyone else on earth. <<The path of least resistance would be through the metal of the keys and ring, and hardly any amperage would go through flesh>>: BEHOLD THE GLORY OF...SCIENCE!

Well, as I've completed more than half my research paper, I think I'll call it a night. This is my last assignment for almost 7 weeks!

62. I will design fortress hallways with no alcoves or protruding structural supports which intruders could use for cover in a firefight.

Josh - [ATkicktothenutsDOTcom]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 02:05:00 AM
IP: 64.168.31.40

FYI, TGS there stands for "Thai Girl Sluts"... if I were to be running a business like that. Which I'm not. It's just wrong and amoral and crap like that. Now if you'll excuse me I have some brats I need to pack up. Um, I mean stacks... stacks of... books. Yes that should do.
Greg Bishansky
Monday, December 2, 2002 11:45:07 PM
IP: 216.179.1.80

FYI, TGS there stands for "Thai Girl Sluts"... if I were to be running a business like that. Which I'm not. It's just wrong and amoral and crap like that. Now if you'll excuse me I have some brats I need to pack up. Um, I mean stacks... stacks of... books. Yes that should do.
Anonymous
Monday, December 2, 2002 11:44:56 PM
IP: 216.179.1.80

PS.. this address is not to be confused with greg b's business e-mail account (tgs-info@yahoo.com) which he uses to import pornography from thailand and to export small caucasian children he kidnaps and sells into slavery to the thailand mafia..........

gside>> you are my hero..
lain
Monday, December 2, 2002 11:32:43 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

*************TGS EMAIL ADDRESS UPDATE!!***************

The TGS Staff has a new address for questions and/or comments.

If you have any of the aforementioned questions/comments about the staff or series, please direct them towards:

TGS_info@yahoo.com

Thankyou.

*************END TGS EMAIL ADDRESS UPDATE****************
lain iwakura - [TGS_info@yahoo.com]
Monday, December 2, 2002 11:26:24 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

Imzadi> <<That's twisted>>: Thank you.
<>: Jay is an amateur.
<<It all makes sense now>>: As well it should.
<>: Doubt all you want, infidel.
<<Kinky>>: And I had to read it, too.

Spacebabie> <<Clearwater>>: Credence?

Godiva> <<there are no visible burns>>: If bot keys were stuck in at the same time, that's not surprising. The path of least resistance would be through the metal of the keys and ring, and hardly any amperage would go through flesh.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Monday, December 2, 2002 11:20:39 PM
IP: 165.230.240.116

Hey Gabe, remember that chat we had after my little accident?
Gunjack "I Almost Died Too, Once" Valentine
Monday, December 2, 2002 11:12:05 PM
IP: 192.133.129.164

gabriel>> <<Awesome! Divine Intervention is a truly awesome thing to witness. God Bless you and your family>> screw you, man. screw you.
lain
Monday, December 2, 2002 11:00:10 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

josh, you nimrod, you know what i meant. and i'm saying that in a joking way so don't get ur panties in a bunch.

Spacebabie!! YaY, a dbz fan!

<<Mohammad was not Buddha, he did have many, many wives, some younger than 10>>
ahh the middle east. where men used to take to the steed and deflower young girls... no place like it! i learned that from the history channel, so blame them if they're wrong!

i think islamic extremist need a hug! i think bin laden is still alive, and i'd love to be the one to hug him...... as i detonate the bomb i have strapped across my chest!!! F**KER!!! well in all fairness, i'd love to slam a fully fueled 767 into his cave, but since i want there to be body parts left, the suicide bomb will do. sorry, i still bring that up sumtymes, mentally scarred......

Screw Harry Potter!!! i can't wait to see The Two To... did i just think about that movie b/c of what i just said??? ::shrugs:: Towers!!!!
JacKaL - [afghan boy with his afghan toy- CAMEL]
Ga
Monday, December 2, 2002 10:58:58 PM
IP: 64.12.96.138

Godiva> Awesome! Divine Intervention is a truly awesome thing to witness. God Bless you and your family.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, December 2, 2002 10:40:47 PM
IP: 66.169.210.231

Last post...

*** TWO TOWERS SPOILERS ***

Here's that picture I mentioned in my last post. I believe the rumor was that Saruman is shoved out of Orthanc by Grima, and is impaled on the spiky wheel here. The wheel was seen at Orthanc in "Fellowship".

Like I said, I'm sure this picture was revealed to be a prank. But it had the Tolkien fandom foaming at the mouth for over a year. Damn that Peter Jackson, he pushes "Voice of Saruman" back a year, and cuts the Scouring of the Shire. We have no idea what will happen to Saruman. Gotta admire the man, I bet he's doing it on purpose just to annoy the Tolkien Nazis.

http://img.www.tolkienonline.com/gallery/archive/spike.jpg

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky
Monday, December 2, 2002 10:32:30 PM
IP: 216.179.1.80

*** TWO TOWERS SPOILERS ***

TODD> The rumor of Saruman being impaled I think has been revealed to be a prank set up by Peter Jackson himself. When spoiler pics got out in the past (like a picture of Gollum) Jackson threatened legal action if it wasn't removed. The picture of Saruman on the spiky wheel was taken a few days after Jackson had to have security chase people away from the sets, and he has not made any effort to remove the picture, so my guess is it's a prank. And I think Christopher Lee himself said that's not how Saruman meets his end in the movies.

But the Oliphaunts are in, we get to see them in a scene similar to the one in the book, and yes the Nazgul on their winged Fell Beasts will make an appearance in "The Two Towers".

*** END TWO TOWERS SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky
Monday, December 2, 2002 10:17:02 PM
IP: 216.179.1.80

Sounds almost like it should be more "The One and a Half Towers". :)

* COMMENT ON SPOILERS *

Well, I'd already known about Shelob being saved for the final movie; I hadn't known that they were delaying "The Voice of Saruman" as well, though.

I do know that there are rumors that Saruman would wind up falling to his death from the top of Orthanc at the end of the "Voice of Saruman" segment, although I don't know if it's true. It sounds a bit like that proposed but never made 50's film treatment by Zimmerman (where Saruman committed suicide, much to Tolkien's disgust when he read the outline).

Although we won't be seeing Shelob, at least we'll be seeing Gollum and the Ents (as I assume everybody knows here, John Rhys-Davies will be doing the voice of Treebeard - between that and his playing the part of Gimli, we've got a very good reason for "Gargoyles" fans to go to the movie). Reportedly we're also going to be seeing the Wargs in action at the Battle of Helm's Deep. (If that's the case, I believe that we can safely assume that Miss Sefton will be boycotting the movie in the TGS Universe. :) ). I hope that we get to see the Oliphaunt in Ithilien, too, and maybe even one of those flying pterodactyl-like beasts for the Nazgul (though the winged beasts might also be saved for "The Return of the King").

* COMMENTS END *
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, December 2, 2002 10:05:22 PM
IP: 65.56.174.134

Well, "The Two Towers" has been screened, and all the reviews are fantastic. We're in for a great movie.

However, as Peter Jackson himself has stated, this is the film he's taking the most liberties with. And there are a couple of changes one would do well to prepare themselves for if you're a fan of the books...

*** TWO TOWERS SPOILERS ****

This was announced months ago, but for those who don't know: Shelob has been pushed back and will now appear in the beginning of "Return of the King". I was disappointed when I first heard this but got over it.

The new biggie however is this: The chapter "Voice of Saruman" has been pushed back to "Return of the King" as well. Aragorn and company's story ends after the battle of Helms Deep rather than at Isengard. With the "Scouring of the Shire" cut from "Return of the King" I have no idea how Saruman will meet his end.

*** END TTT SPOILERS ***

Still, the reviews are great and I imagine I'll love this movie. Can't wait to see it.

"A new power is rising! It's victory is at hand!"
-Saruman the White
Greg Bishansky
Monday, December 2, 2002 09:11:35 PM
IP: 216.179.1.80

*beats head on walls of CR while repeating a mantra of "not commenting, not commenting.."*
greg.. help meeee.... pleeeaasee.....
*thunk.. thunk.. thunk..*
lain
Monday, December 2, 2002 08:46:58 PM
IP: 65.93.76.62

::Restrains himself from commenting on God and Lucifer::
Greg Bishansky
Monday, December 2, 2002 08:42:41 PM
IP: 216.179.1.80

Godiva> *Nodes* Yes. God works alright! Hope to see ya in Heaven some day! :):) And Remember to Thank God that this Chris didn't get hurt. :)
Ravenes
Monday, December 2, 2002 08:27:16 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

*Introducing Holographic Mistletoe v2.0*
Due to the previous design failures with holographic mistletoe, v2.0 was created (plans are under the way for version 3.0 for next year). Version 2.0 uses 60,000 holographic projecters. Each projecter will project the image of the holographic mistletoe for 0.001 seconds and shut off with another projector taking its place. 1 minute later, original projector will project again. Once the project finishes projecting for those 0.001 seconds, its memory banks for the image to project will be purged and a copy of the original mistletoe will be reloaded into the machine 5 seconds before it projects again.

This means it would be continously active beam to mutate holographic mistletoe in less than 0.001 seconds, but even though, it would have to restart from stratch after 0.001 seconds because a different holographic projector is handling the hologram. In short, it is theoritically impossible to corrupt holographic mistletoe v2.0. Next years version will be even more theoritically impossible to corrupt.

DPH presses a button and holographic mistletoe v2.0 is online in the CR.
**END Introduction of Holographic Mistletoe v2.0**

Phire_Kat - <Well thanks you boring jerk I was actully hoping you'd give me some good advice or something on it!!> I'll personally give you a review when I read the completed work. (Remind me to give you the review when it's completed in the event I forget.)

Imzadi - <Sorry, I meant publication.> np. <If you say that to an engineer he will summarily beat you.> Wait a minute: Sometimes it's the boss's fault for procrastinating in giving you the assignment. <Pretty much, yeah.> *Reviews source to Holographic DPH to check for any potential cases for Holographic DPH would turn against me* <60. My five-year-old child advisor will also be asked to decipher any code I am thinking of using. If he breaks the code in
under 30 seconds, it will not be used. Note: this also applies to passwords.> Hmm. So you're ok assuming geniuses will eventually crack your passwords/codes? <61. If my advisors ask "Why are you risking everything on such a mad scheme?", I will not proceed until I have a response that
satisfies them.> Who's going to enforce that rule if you're really determined? Also, this does imply you trust your advisors implicitly. Sorry, but won't it be better policy to keep some advisors in the dark about some things where no single advisor has the complete picture in case one of them was captured?

Hyperion - *Pulls a cloak-and-danger response to that statement by laughing* If only you knew.

Spacebabie - <Ah but the credit goes to Mrs. Smith> Aside from the pie crust, I make mine from stratch.

Gunjack - <Home was real, real good. And now, it's 13 days till I hop on the bus to Canada. Good times coming soon.> I am more considered about what **should** happen by this Saturday. (inside information)

One more thing: I have MouseHunter Junior black version 1.0, tiger version 1.0, and royal tiger version 1.0. I also have MouseHunter royal black version 1.0, tiger version 1.0, and Black-and-White version 1.0. I'm looking to upgrade any of them to a version with the following features: ability to smell a mouse at a minimum of 1 yard away, increased depth perception, and increased attention span. Anybody have an idea how to upgrade any of them to the aforementioned new version?
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, December 2, 2002 06:47:12 PM
IP: 204.94.193.53

<<WARNING: QUASI-RELIGIOUS THEMED>>

Christopher, our four year old, nearly electrocuted himself on Saturday. Big David (my husband) had gone to store and the kids and I were upstairs. I was sorting the laundry in the hallway, Little David and Lauren (my 10 yr. old son and 9 yr. old daughter) were in our room watching TV and Chris and Mikey (my two youngest sons; Mikey is 3 yrs. old) were in Little David's room watching his TV. Mikey had found a pair of keys that go to our computer desk and had lost them in Little David's room. I had gone in my room to get a T-shirt that I had dropped. Mikey came to me and asked me to turn Little David's TV back on. As I walked by the bathroom, I noticed Chris was in there with the faucet on and it looked like he was washing his hands. I get into Little David's room and I press the power button on his TV. Nothing. I press it again. Still nothing. I walk over to the outlet where the TV is plugged in and that's when I see the keys. They were stuck in the outlet. I yelled to Lauren to go grab something plastic so that I can slip it through the key ring and pull the keys out. She gets me a plastic fork and two plastic knives. I told her that that wasn't what I wanted and told her to make sure that neither Chris or Mikey goes back in Little David's room. I run downstairs, check the circuit breaker, see that the switch is in the middle, so I flipped to the off position. I grab one of my long, plastic spoons with really skinny handle, go back upstairs and take the keys out of the socket. I asked Mikey if he had stuck the keys in the socket and he said no. I asked Chris if he had did it and he said yes. By then, Big David had come home and I told him what had happened. He asked Chris if he had seen fire (a spark). Chris said that he had seen fire and that he also heard a "pop". David checked Chris' fingers and there are no visible burns. Guys, my little boy should be dead. The tips of the keys are black and the holes where the key ring goes is black, too. I believe the that reason my little boy is still here is because last Sunday (Nov. 24) when I went to check on Little David and Christopher, I was filled with a sudden urge to pray for Christopher. I truly believe that God was telling me that Satan was going to try to do something to Chris. I knelt beside Chris, put my hand on his head and prayed like I've never prayed before. After what happened Saturday, I know that God had given me a warning and because of Him, my little boy is fine.

Replies:

Niahmgold-Forgive me for sounding naive, but why would me saying that my favorite pizza (Sausage, pepperoni, mushrooms, and little extra sauce) would make guys happy?

Gunjack or Green Baron (I forgot which one of you asked about the commute from our house to downtown L.A.)-My husband is the one who commutes from the Inland Empire to downtown Los Angeles. If he doesn't take the vanpool, he has to drive approximately 50 miles each way. If he misses the vanpool and he does drives, it can take anywhere from 35-90 minutes to get there, depending on traffic and/or the time of day.

Fire Storm-Glad to hear Lady Mystic is feeling better.

Josh-<<Encino>> Like, omigawd! You're like, from the Valley! That is, like, just so bitchin'! Gnarly! Seriously, my only experience with the Valley is that I had an ex-boyfriend who went to CSUN.

Well, that's all and I'm 99.99% positive that I've forgotten to reply to someone. If that's you, please repost and I'll respond. Thankie!!

Godiva - [renee_prater@rocketmail.com]
Montclair, CA, usa
Monday, December 2, 2002 06:15:39 PM
IP: 24.52.251.66

I'm not dead; just busy. Good Thanksgiving though. The usual family, drinking the usual (excessive) amounts, eating the usual (excessive) food and smoking the usual (excellent) cigars while the women did the dishes.

********Warning possible insulting/un-PC commentary********

I have to observe that it's been a tough few weeks for Islam ("the Religion of Peace"). What with the Miss World riots and all. Although you have to wonder about the mindset of these people that refuse to blame their own people for killing about 200 random passers-by, burning churches and a newspaper, but rather blame "irresponsible journalism against Islam". Way to go there, winners.
Of course, the real irony comes when the Islamic leaders speak up, not about the victims of the mass killings, not to condemn the savages that carried them out, but about a demo film the Boeing put together to show the potential for next gen weapons systems. This film, completely computer generated, showed a fictional city with (*gasp*) mosques! Naturally Islamic leaders were aghast at the thought of any violence against their people. On a strictly personal level, I think all these people are farking nuts.
Two other things: A)When your religion frowns on killing, walking around yelling "god is great" while killing people probably won't win you any points with your deity and B) Mohammad was not Buddha, he did have many, many wives, some younger than 10, and enjoyed them all. Read the Qur'an sometime, before you riot. Otherwise you all look like a bunch of brainless savages. Oh...wait...

**************End commentary*************************

Imzadi><legos> Good luck with the model. I once built a full-scale Mech out of legos...would have taken over my city, but I ran out of 2x4s for the autocannon.

Hmm...appears the TGS staffing debate is wrapped up. Won't comment on that then. I will mention though, that it seems the stories and seasons are getting much shorter and the time between them much longer. While this irks me, since I'm not doing anything about it, I won't complain to vehemently. *NOTE* I have about as much knowledge about how the staff gets stuff done as I have about the inner workings of nitrogen volcanoes on Triton.

Green Baron><The Basilica Cistern> I have to agree with you on those comments
 yeah, whatever. Trust me on this, it'll hit you on the back of the head with a large stick when you least expect it. The problem is getting it to last.
<Cappedocia> Cappedocia is incredible. I have not been there, but I know people that have. They told me it was spectacular. Might have to plan a trip out there sometime.
<sources of the Tigris and Euphrates> Yeah, seeing the Nile was like that too. Lots of stuff to see out there. And many cheap suits to buy in Vietnam.

Ok, I think I went far enough back. If I missed anything of vital importance to anyone, post it again. I'm being lazy.
*************************
"How much longer?"
"One hour, fifty-seven minutes. .. Wanna talk socks?"
"No!"
"It's just a question."
"I'm not having this conversation."
Hyperion
Monday, December 2, 2002 01:24:25 PM
IP: 151.199.237.169

Two more days YAY! Oh dear lord my dad shaved his head. He�s bald! Here come the Patrick Stuart and Walter Skinner jokes

Took more quizzes.

I�d be placed in Ravenclaw
Og the beautiful women I�m the innocent maiden
My soul came from Heaven,
But I�m going to hell cause of Fan art
But I think I�m really going to hell cause of my Harry Potter Shipper results.
Snape and Ginny???? Yeah I�m going to hell for that one

Replies
Josh<<<we went to this MASSIVE mall (South Coast Plaza, I think it is). Traffic was awful around the mall, stupid day-after-thanksgiving shopping.>>>That is why I don�t shop the day after Thanksgiving.<<<had these scallops prepared with hoisin sauce (I *love* seafood!)>>>Me too and Scallops eaten in a month without an R can inspire some naughty fics.<<<Just think, 2 weeks from now I'll be throwing stuff in the car again to head home! >>>Ha two days! :P<<<No, they didn't use the same kind that they use for braces.>>>Still it�s ick in your mouth.<<<Depends on whose foot.>>>Brittney Spears? Eliza Dushku?<<<Thanks, don't mind if I do!>>>I hate hot cars. You slide acroos the seat and you get burned and it�s hard to drive, cause the steering wheel is hot from the sun�<<>>So how was she?<<<The cockpit is rapidly approaching completion,>>>I can take it went well then ;)

Green Baron<<<Drew Carey was at Camp Bondsteel and I met him at dinner>>>Cool<<<Also, he went to Kosovo out fo his pocket, which was really patriotic of him and incredibly generous as he essentially gave up his Thanksgiving for us.>>>What a great guy. I ought to call up Brokedick and tell him if he had better bones he�d still be in the army and might have gotten to se him.

Christine<<<subconscious, that's what Jericho is all about!>>>I also think about him during the day.

Niahmgold<<<Sorry, I don't play like that ;) But if you mean visit Disney World, sure ;)>>>By that I mean take you out of the freezer and place you in the fridge. It�s cold down here but I�m pretty sure it�s freezing where you live.

DPH<<<We may have a competition for best Pecan Pie.>>>Ah but the credit goes to Mrs. Smith

Warmind<<<You've been having freaky dreams, too?>>>�My Dreams Are strange� <<<Was I there?>>>No!

Firestorm<<<But first, I need to wash LM's feet>>>Then rub lotion into them and give them a massage. Women like that. <<<That Sevarius... up to his old cloning tricks again!
>>>Check out the guy�s name :Severino Antinori, It sounds a little like Sevarius

Leviathan<<<Disney will be releasing GARGOYLES on DVD in 2003>>>Thank you I was there when Greg W made the announcement.

Phire-Kat<<<my cat when into heat yesterday and now she's acting like a total freak!>>>Urgh I hate when Velvet goes into heat, cause she gets really LOUD!

JacKaL<<<but did anyone else pick up on that shyt?>>>I got the joke in DBZ, I live near Disney World

4.�Shrug of the restraints that you have allowed others to place upon you. You are limitless There is nothing you cannot achieve. There is no sadness in life that cannot be reversed.� ~ Clearwater
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Monday, December 2, 2002 11:43:48 AM
IP: 64.159.110.129

Gside> Ok. Whatever...
Ravenes
Monday, December 2, 2002 10:07:31 AM
IP: 24.86.117.45

That Sevarius... up to his old cloning tricks again!

Won't he ever learn?

I say we just leave Timmy down at the bottom of that well and teach him a very important lesson!
Fire Storm - [<--- Of clones and men]
Monday, December 2, 2002 04:43:14 AM
IP: 66.72.186.61

We had a hanukah party today (which reminds me to wish a happy holiday to all three jews in the CR) and had some family and friends...lots of names to remember. Then we saw the new bond flick.

Madonna was awful. Her song sucked and was TOTALLY unworthy of even a new-age bond flick, and she looks lousy to boot. Looks like she got hit with a barbara streisand stick.

Now I'm all packed up and ready to leave at the buttcrack of dawn tomorrow (9AM).

I see I missed the top ten. Oops.

Phire_kat: <<adjestments, gramer, spelling...anything PLEASE i need input!>>: You should check more closely. Always. And have someone else proofread your stuff, because people often fail to notice their own mistakes. <<thats the first nice thing you've ever said to me in here>>: I never let my opinion of someone interfere with my assessment of their work. Its just silly.

JacKaL: <<and sum ppl say god don't exist>>: Um, what does god have to do with a gargoyles DVD release?

Gside: <<You'd eventually see some furry porn to trigger you>>: That's twisted. <<You'll have to go through me first>>: No, I think not. <>: I have no time with four classes, and I actually expect to have less next semester with only 3 classes! <<he'd probably go for the closest>>: I doubt it. <>: I got that. <>: Whatever, its there. <>: I thought that was jay. <<they do have the Silent Bob, Bluntman, and Chronic costumes, as well as the lightsabers and Bluntmobile>>: Seeing those would be worth it. <<porn is the explanation for anything happening>>: It all makes sense now. <>: I doubt it. <<Chomsky slapped that one around>>: Kinky.

61. If my advisors ask "Why are you risking everything on such a mad scheme?", I will not proceed until I have a response that satisfies them.

Josh - [ATkicktothenutsDOTcom]
Encino, CA, US of A
Monday, December 2, 2002 02:28:16 AM
IP: 172.193.227.162

Fire Storm> <>: And when you said plural, I got thinking on multiple.
<>: You'd eventually see some furry porn to trigger you.

Imzadi> <<I'll kill you>>: You'll have to go through me first.
<<If you say that to an engineer he will summarily beat you>>: But I procrastinate all the time. But then, I do have time to, with only four classes.
<<according to the director, if she can't be troubled to rent it, then they aren't interested in her admission fee>>: She's been exposed to it enough and recently enough, but she's still occaisonally confused by minorish charactors.
<<No, he'd try to have sex with his OWN mother>>: Who isn't there, so he'd probably go for the closest.
<<Nothing>>: I was trying to be hyper defensive there.
<<Watch more porn>>: I do, but I was under the impression that in reality the volume output of females is very little.
<<So you wanted to sleep with his mother?>>: That too.
<<True, you're already a master. Baiter>>: I am beyond that. I am the �ber Master Baiter.
<>: It's not that exciting. Yes, they do have the Silent Bob, Bluntman, and Chronic costumes, as well as the lightsabers and Bluntmobile, but otherwise it's a standard comic shop.
<<Not really>>: As in porn is the explanation for anything happening.
<<The important question is: did she?>>: Apparently she's still there.
<>: Normally not, but I am the exception. For I am a sexy, sexy man.

Christine> <<behavioral modification>>: Chomsky slapped that one around.

Ravenes> <<They wipped it again after 2 days?>>: It's been more than a week.

And I'm a bit behind on the mp3, but anyway. How about The Bridge of Khazad Dum from the Fellowsip by Howard Shore. It's got a choir of 50 or so Polynesian men chanting in Dwarvish.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@eden.rutgers.edu]
Piscataway, NJ
Monday, December 2, 2002 12:11:04 AM
IP: 165.230.240.116

Home was real, real good. And now, it's 13 days till I hop on the bus to Canada. Good times coming soon.

Lynati - Email sent. If you want a public appology, you'll have it.

Work becons. Peace.
Gunjack "Turkey Lurkey" Valentine
Sunday, December 1, 2002 11:46:28 PM
IP: 192.133.129.164

Hello beautifuls! Hi, I'm slightly in need and I just didn't know where else to turn, IF ANYONE KNOWS SOMEWHERE where can find great GARGOYLES SCREENCAPS, like form the City of Stone, I'd be really appreciative! Please E~mail me; fionaseckari1@aol.com Thankies!
Fiona Seckari - [fionaseckari1@aol.com]
My World, :), USA
Sunday, December 1, 2002 11:40:41 PM
IP: 152.163.189.68

O. They wipped it again after 2 days? ok... *Sneaks away.*
Ravenes
Sunday, December 1, 2002 09:28:16 PM
IP: 24.86.117.45

<>
oh yeah, that goat game is REALLY cool!!! j/k

<>
i can be a tgs member, i have talent!! click on tha name! nah i'm just kidding yall don't want me writing or helping with stories that would just be bad! speaking of, i should prolly revive my own fanfic. ::idea is formed and it didn't hurt::

<<Bibidi Bobidi Buu>>
i dunno if there's any dragonball z fans in here, but did anyone else pick up on that shyt? �� FU-SION-HA ��

FS- i was hoping i wasn't the only one that visited stick death!

<<Disney will be releasing GARGOYLES on DVD in 2003>>
and sum ppl say god don't exist!

btw, i know the drawing i have is in horible quality, but i own a digi still cam, not a scanner.... i know... i suck and should burn in hell.
stEphEn aka JacKaL
Ga
Sunday, December 1, 2002 07:25:31 PM
IP: 64.12.96.138

ELEVENTH--

Oh, nevermind then.
Shinigami
Sunday, December 1, 2002 04:31:21 PM
IP: 64.12.96.138

TENTH! Please!
Niamhgold
Sunday, December 1, 2002 03:06:52 PM
IP: 12.104.22.73

NINTH!!
Phire_kat
Sunday, December 1, 2002 03:00:16 PM
IP: 65.93.14.9

Eight. Eight...Crazy Nights... anyone? Reviews?
Lila
L.A.
Sunday, December 1, 2002 02:51:54 PM
IP: 134.173.121.83

tOP 10, #7?
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, December 1, 2002 02:48:00 PM
IP: 204.94.193.16

In the name of myself and my rampant libido, I'll claim se... uh, six!

Real post later.
Warpmind de InzanE - [warpmindATtiscaliDOTno]
Middle, Nowhere, Norway
Sunday, December 1, 2002 02:46:01 PM
IP: 213.142.68.82

I'll take the Fifth
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Sunday, December 1, 2002 02:37:52 PM
IP: 67.25.49.190

**bounds in**

Forth!

**waves at everyone** ^_^
Dreamie and Winterwolf
Sunday, December 1, 2002 02:33:50 PM
IP: 198.81.26.201

Trying to trick us again by wiping the room at a strange time of day?

Number three!
Patrick Toman
Sunday, December 1, 2002 02:30:39 PM
IP: 67.38.251.25

2nd!
Leo
Sunday, December 1, 2002 02:29:13 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

TOP TEN!

1st!

*grins evilly*
Heather - [Kheetor84@cox.net]
Warner Robins, GA, USA
Sunday, December 1, 2002 02:27:54 PM
IP: 68.99.148.20