TGS Full Comment Room

Add Comment | Previous Week | Text-Only Comment Room | Comment Room Information

TGS WebSite | TGS MirrorSite | Current Episode

Raptor> <<does anyone know when the new season of gargoyles is coming out?>>
NEVER.

(Sorry. Josh must have just died, because I seem to be channeling him. ;)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Sunday, July 27, 2003 03:15:14 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

does anyone know when the new season of gargoyles is coming out?
Raptor - X
Florida, USA
Sunday, July 27, 2003 02:02:34 AM
IP: 66.176.57.35

Fire Storm> <>: This bacon is faker than turkey bacon. I don't even mind turkey bacon.
<>: You're letting that stop you?
<<do you think there would be much objection to an automated system to post the stories?>>: I may have been recruited to do just that. Do you happen to know what kind of software is on the tgs.g-f.org server? SQL, PHP, something else?
<<Fang?>>: Thing, with an accent I believe.
<<But I REALLY miss Chiana's frells>>: Can you get any wavs of them to set as your computer's sound scheme?
<<Now that Mary is Arthur's squire, when is she going to get coconuts?>>: And that even works as a wink wink nudge nudge.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:43:11 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Airwalker - <(Even the Avalon Tour basically is able to write off economic questions on them returning to Avalon after every adventure and on what seems to be Elisa's infinite credit limit.)> Ok, what about the economic issue for Hudson, Brooklyn, Broadway, Lexington, and Cagney while Elisa and Goliath were away? or what about the economic issue for the Labyrinth clan?
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, July 26, 2003 11:51:10 PM
IP: 204.94.193.77

AIRWALKER - Again, the truth of the matter is that the "economics issue" that you mention simply never seems to have occurred to anybody in the production team until after you brought it up - it's one of those embarrassing situations where it's not until one of the readers brings it up that you realize that you never thought of it.

(A bit, I suppose, like Greg Weisman learning - as he mentioned himself at "Ask Greg" - about choosing the scenes for the "Previously On" sections in "Gargoyles" more carefully after the viewers commented about how the "Enter Macbeth" clip in the "Previously On" for "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" gave away Macbeth's involvement in that one.)

I'm honestly not certain as to how it is that the readers are able to catch things that somehow seem to have passed every one of the production team by; I suspect, however, that it's due to the fact that being in the audience gives you a different perspective than being in the production team room.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, July 26, 2003 08:29:15 PM
IP: 171.75.194.20

TODD - You wrote: [Of course, the original series never addressed the issue of the gargoyles' maintenance while they were living in the clock tower.]

True; although they weren't exactly running around America looking for various objects and people. Since they were spending almost all of their time in NYC, the question on how they dealt with economic issues was less likely to come up. During the Clocktower years, everything can be tied down to getting stuff from Elisa and renovating old stuff they find themselves. (Even the Avalon Tour basically is able to write off economic questions on them returning to Avalon after every adventure and on what seems to be Elisa's infinite credit limit.)

Arthur on the other hand is in a completely different situation. He isn't using magic or remaining largely in one city, he's wandering around all over the place on what seems to be almost constant quests. And he and his group aren't exactly a small number of people; its not a limited number like six Gargoyles in a Clocktower. The numbers with him grow everytime he comes across someone and adds them to the group in some way. For example a Squire is a dependent after all.

He can't be walking everywhere he goes; cars, train, and planes cost money. Not to mention plain old living expenses. He and his ever increasing gaggle of followers don't seem to work for a living and don't really have any place to live at. They seem to be living off of the London Clan who is described in some places as being not so well off economically. So it does raise the question here much more than it would in the original series as to where his finances come from. It would be nice to get even throwaway dialogue mentioning something:

"How are we going to pay for Gas and Lunch Arthur?"

"Don't worry my faithful Squire. Remember that magical amulet that can remove werewolf curses that we found last week while searching for the Grail?"

"Oh yes! You said I'd be able to use it once Una gave it a look over to make sure its safe. Then I'll be cured and we can all go out on a quest for Merlin. Again."

"Yes, well I know I said that but this clue came up and I had to pawn it so that we could afford to gas money and food expenses."

"I'm sorry, what did you say?"

"I pawned it so we could all come out here. Isn't the middle of nowhere so lovely? I'm sure we'll find the Grail this time; the drunken teenagers who told me of this clue seemed pretty sure about it. We just have to find it; Because you know, Merlin is just so important."

"AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

:-) :-) :-)

MOONCAT - You wrote: [Wouldn't excising all the parts that pertain to his not so noble acts be akin to a "white washing" of him and a default condoning of bad behavior of a "hero" by conveniently telling only the "good" parts of his story?]

Technically yes. Arthur was after all a Medieval King. He's going to have done terrible things. The question here though is what kind of an Arthur do you want for your series?

If you want a largely 20th century leaning character then you have to do something to either get rid of or downplay largely the existing portions of his past. You can't have a hero who also kills babies; he can kill as many adults as he wants but to remain a traditional modern hero, the line has to be drawn somewhere. (Unless of course your post-Warren Ellis AUTHORITY in which case you kill whoever you want of whatever age you feel like unless they happen to be to the far left wing of British politics.)

If however your going to stick with the existing history as we know it and not spin something to clean the background up a bit for modern sensibilities then you aren't going to have a hero, at least not the way we understand it. You could get a still sympathetic character, you could defintely get an interesting character but not a hero. The problem here is that TGS Arthur has mainstream Arthur history but is still being played as a modern hero. The two grate against each other very much.

You wrote: [Uh... it takes a certain amount of deliberation, time and effort to gather up a whole bunch of infants and restrain their terrified and possibly resisting mothers, stuff said lot of babies (no doubt a number of which are screaming as only babies can scream when being manhandled by strangers) into an unmanned sea vessel, and toss them into a storm.]

The way I understand it is that TGS is going with the idea that Arthur made the decision and then washed his hands of everything and left the dirty work to his underlings to plan and carry out. Sort of a way to distance himself from it.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, July 26, 2003 05:59:14 PM
IP: 12.88.197.211

Kaioto - King Arthur didn't kill all the babies in an Empire's reach, only the ones in a certain geographic area around his sister's location/holdings. This certainly would be in a War Lord and High King's power. After all, it was only a number of babies as would fit into on ship.

According to legend Modred *was* among the babies captured and sent into the storm, and of course that was the only baby to survive by floating to shore after the boat goes down and being rescued by a peasant farmer.

As for Arthur being a nice guy, and nice guys aren't murderers... Ummm a lot of real killers *seem* like nice guys. Unlike in cartoons, they don't all look or act a certain way so it's immediately apparent they have committed some heinous crime. For all we know, the guilt from his crime might have made Arthur that much "better" in an effort to atone for his horrible deed.

Heroes of old weren't heroes because they were pure as lilies and bastions of moral behavior. They were heroes because they'd undertaken and survived some great adventure, achieved some great goal, accomplished something significant. Hercules and the 12 labors, Arthur and Camelot (bringing lots of small warring kingdoms under one rule) etc. But if you look at their other actions, they were right rat bastards. Hercules was a rapist, a robber, and a professional killer and probably wasn't a guy on the street you'd want to run into if you are just a regular joe.

Arthur was a warlord who fought many battles to establish his kingship (otherwise Excalibur would be naught but a pretty ornament) enforcing his will and rule over many smaller and disagreeing/warlike kingdoms. I'll hazard a guess he held his high crown by being as ruthless and as stone cold a killer when necessary as he would need to be for such a job.

I think a greater problem today is that modern audiences are being conditioned to see all heroes as viceless, even with evidence to the contrary. The uncomfortable parts of a "hero's" life/past are chisled off to make it more politically correct and palatable. Fairy Tales are sanitized even though the originals are filled with hard core gruesomeness, and often in tv and movie recreations of heroes of story and legend are "rewritten" to take out all the original bits that would be unsavory to the masses.

Hercules for example, instead of being the bastard of Zeus from one of his many affairs, is suddenly the son of a doting and loving Hera and Zeus. Hades, not much of a bad guy in legend, except for kidnapping Persephone (after being struck with a love arrow from Eros on Aphrodite's vengeful command) is now cast as the 'big bad', and an incompetent comedic big bad at that since he is the god of the Underworld and there is a need for an incompetent evil type for the "hero" to bounce off of.

I'm not even touching the rewriting of Hunchback of Notre Dame.

But my point is that it seems what modern "powers that be" are into these days is taking the "raw" parts of classic legends and stories and white washing until they get a bright and shiny and squeaky clean version, where the Hero only has minor flaws that serve as comedic or cautionary plot devices -- example, hero A is hot headed and judgemental, watch how in episode 15 how that gets him into trouble, and he learns think first and not to judge so quickly -- Hero B is a little sloppy, see in episode 4 how that gets him into trouble, and he learns how to do a good and thorough job the first time or it just makes more trouble later. -- and so on.

It's all very cute and very Disney and it's bleeding over from fables and legends into to actual historical stories like Pocahontas to make everything nice and bright and shiny. The real history of Pocahontas, while she herself was a virtuous person, what the English did to her and her people weren't so nice and bright and shiny.

Now, this is not to say I don't love Disney, because I enjoy a lot of their stuff. It's just kind of troubling to see the "Disney Brush" extending so far into pop culture that it's now the first thing some people think of when faced with an unheroic characteristic for hero of legend or classic story is to "make it nice" and palateable and consistent with a preconceived notion of what a hero should be instead of what the story/legend had down originally.

>^,,^<

Mooncat
Saturday, July 26, 2003 01:44:27 PM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Re: Arthur drowning babies

The real problem with this aspect of the story is that it is extremely difficult to reconcile with the character of Arthur as portrayed in the Gargoyles universe. Arthur is supposed to be a decent human being, a noble pillar of chivalry, a strong leader, and a hero. Heroes, those who are noble, and those decent human beings - none of these people round up and drown a bunch of babies. Period.

It was obviously included as a literary convention to draw parallels between Arthur and King Herod and the Pharoh during the time Moses was born. The Holy Bible is possibly the most influencial and alluded to piece of literature in the history of British literature. Convenient and sometimes outlandish crimes are used to mark a character for a tragic demise later on in the story.

Whether the crime can be reconciled to the character is generally a mark of whether or not the work is skillful.

Shakespeare's biggest influence in many of his plays was pandering to the crown, so treason was the most common crime that condemned men like MacBeth and Brutus in his tragedies.

The later romances of King Arthur were flavored with all manner of silly French and English notions that were popular at that time. An obsession with illict sexual relations between nobles and a romanticized notion of chivalry pervaded the works - to the detriment of the characters and the written work in most cases.

Arthur was portrayed as a flower of chivalry, morality, and order - yet when it is convenient for the author, he is commiting atrocious acts that would make some modern dictators flinch. Yet the two very different characters exist in the same person and never come into sufficient conflict. That is the mark of bad continuity and poor writing.

Nevermind the fact that Arthur's control over Britain and the surrounding territories was never strong enough to make such an act practical. Feudal vassals and neighboring Picts, Celts, etc. tend to get VERY upset when a monarch kills all their babies. If a FEUDAL king conducts a nationwide progrom like that, he's going to be deposed and murdered within the year.

Neither Herod nor Pharoh lived in a Feudal society, they were absolute monarchs and their subjects were not armed warriors. In Herod's case, the Roman Legions and his personal guards were the highest military powers in the region. He could abuse the Jews almost all he wanted and get away with it. In Pharoh's case, the Hebrews were brutally enslaved. How was the atrocity of murdering their babies going to make them any more of a threat? In both of their cases, they pissed off - GOD - instead of their victims. In Arthur's case, yes, he obviously pissed off God and with the loss of the "Mandate of Heaven" which eventually led to the downfall of Camelot.

The problem is, in Arthur's case, Camelot shouldn't have lasted long enough after his crime to incur the wrath of God.

So, you have two real problems with reconciling the baby-killing crime of Arthur with the rest of his story. First, the consequences of Arthur's action do not follow realistically enough to keep the story's sense of continuity in place. Secondly, Arthur's character is not self-reconciling.

Morgana's conflicting personalities are reconciled in TGS. Morgana is mentally unbalanced, almost a split personality. Her two motivations are at war with each other and screw up her life time and again.

Demona's cunning reconciles with her stupid mistakes in Gargoyles. Demona is passionate, obsessive, and ruthless. This gives her enhanced clarity in connecting the dots to her goals, but it tends to make her inflexible during the heat of the moment - unable to adequately deal with contingency planning on the level an ice-cold villain like Xanathos can.

This means she can be a successful upper manager - since realism, flexibility, and contingency planning aren't required for the job. Xanathos is an exceptional man who made a huge Empire out of almost nothing in a few short years because he can do everything that Demona can do in business, only he has realism, flexibility, and contingency planning skills decked out the 9's - making him a rarity in the world of CEO's.

Sorry, my cynicism from business school is leaking out again, isn't it? ;-)

Arthur's murder of innocent children is - not - reconciled to the character. He doesn't act like a scumbag. He doesn't act like a flawed "ends justify the means" person either. He acts like an idealist whenever possible. At the same time, he doesn't show any signs of repressing his guilt over the crime either - no signs of rationalizing or excuses either. That's a character gap.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Saturday, July 26, 2003 12:17:35 PM
IP: 66.30.158.19

Well, the vacation is over... 5 days off was nice. I want MORE!
BUT, I am here working morning shift with nowhere NEAR enough caffeine in my system to survive.

Gside: 
This is true, BUT I can usually make my turkey bacon nice and crispy
<They don't stack as well>
They are like cans when you take off the connecting rods
<Most of them are harmless, except for Dr. Whiteface (Sorry, been rereading my Discworld books).>
It's ok. I haven't read them yet. Started reading Harry Potter, though. On Azkabhan now.
<You should have had "f: Never" for Imzadi's sake.>
Very true... but I know the staff would never say that
<Sense? Who follows sense? It's nonsense where the action's at>
YES! Down with reason!

DPH: <There's this file with a title called "How to Release a Season".>
Say... IF (big frelling if) the right page was created, do you think there would be much objection to an automated system to post the stories? (IE: upload the file, and on the update page you would enter in the story name, series, season, authors, artists, etc)?

Lain: 
Condom's aren't fun when you are screwing someone over!
Just remember the bathtub curve for electronics. Most fail in the first few months or after a few years. The time between they are usually ok.

Spacebabie: <Poor Fang .>
Fang?
<There is one thing that I miss about you FS�.I miss your frells>
Why thank you! Frells are cool, aren't they?
But I REALLY miss Chiana's frells.

Andrea: <and because of it, I can't see Aurthur in a serious light anymore...>
Agreed. If I ever hear Arthur say "Sir Night" in Pendragon...
BUT, it would explain why they haven't made a New Camelot yet. It would be a silly place.

Kaioto: <It really seems to me that Demona just wants prompt gratification>
Yeah... she seems quite focused on short term goals (even in the show) and almost never sees the big picture or even medium term goals. Thinking about how she is portrayed, I am surprised she actually had the patience to carry out the Hunters Moon plan.

Airwalker: 
I see it that Demona had really high hopes about Thailog and didn't really see who he was...
Yeah... she should have been more suspicious.
<The state she's in now seems to be a semi-penniless exile and that shouldn't be>
Well, maybe she isn't. Maybe she just lost her company, but still has quite a few bank accounts. She may have money, but not power, and to her, money is a tool and without power, it is useless.

Lynati, Josh: 
Well, since selling them would be illegal, that may not be a good idea.
However, if someone was to donate money, and lo and behold, a Phoenix Gate appears by post, that may not be a problem! ;)

Immortality: Well, when I become immortal, I seriously hope I have a decent bank account. I hope that my desire for learning wouldn't wane as I grow increasingly older.

A flame war about TGS... is this a good thing?

Pendragon: Now that Mary is Arthur's squire, when is she going to get coconuts?

Database status:
TGS Story database: Complete
TGS Image database: ... Yeah, right. Not even started out of fear.
CR Text color database: Complete
CR Images database: Complete
CR Archive database: *sobs* (But at least I have the data with me)
NEW Database based CR member info pages: Um... I made columns on the Excel sheet... does that count?
Fire Storm
Saturday, July 26, 2003 09:58:03 AM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Gside - what can I say, Josh's Overlord Rules Quotes were a bright spot in my day *^_^*

Greg - hear and obey Admin Dude.

Moving on to another topic - the less savory aspects of the Arthurian Legend...

Todd -- [Your point about the "less credible portions of Arthur's past" is a good one; actually, they got in largely because the original head of the project, Jeffrey High, wanted as rigid an adherence to the story in Malory as possible]

Airwalker -- [The problem I think is that perhaps too much emphasis is being put on his problematic history. While retaining it does make him a much more conflicted and interesting character, it does make him less sympathetic. Perhaps something like this would have been easier to rewrite and just say that the Legendary version was more a result of Morgana changing the history books over the centuries rather than being the truth.]

Isn't language interesting? The totally different spins the word use of "problematic" and "less credible" when referring to the part of Arthur's legend where he gathers up all the babies born during the same time as his incestuously gotten son, and having them stripped naked and placed in an unmanned sea vessel and sent straight into a raging sea during a storm in hopes it will kill his own bastard baby... is fascinating. Problematic doesn't cast question of the legitimacy of the part of the legend discussed, only addresses how it shows Arthur in a less than completely heroic light. Whereas the words "less credible" make it seem as if that only the noble portions of the legend that show Arthur in a good light are credible, somehow more truthful and real than the ignoble parts. It indicates a "he (Arthur) can do no wrong" determination despite the fact the less noble parts of Arthur's legend are not in any greater dispute than his heroic deeds.

About the less admirable portions of Arthur's legend. Wouldn't excising all the parts that pertain to his not so noble acts be akin to a "white washing" of him and a default condoning of bad behavior of a "hero" by conveniently telling only the "good" parts of his story? Basically excusing infanticide because it tarnishes the "hero's" legend by deliberately leaving it out... or saying it was only the bad mouthing of his enemies when there is no basis for such a claim?

Nothing in any of the early references of Arthur's legend, which his characterization in Pendragon seems to be based on, indicate his deliberate murder of babies for his own selfish motive was any less a solid piece of his story than his taking up of Excalibur, or his tragic romance/friendship with Guinevere and Lancelot. With history, such tweaking of events would be considered pretty shady revisionism. If it were current, this would not be unlike covering up the crimes of a modern day sports hero, say rape or murder... simply because the rest of his public face is so admirable. Or if a well known and admired pillar of the community were found out to be a child molester, having it all hushed up because it might tarnish his image.

Todd [It wasn't the same sort of thing as, say, Duncan in "City of Stone" deliberately sitting down and scheming against Macbeth or even Uther chasing after Igraine from a grown man's lust rather than an adolescent weakness. It's a serious matter to deal with, but was not a calculated crime like King Herod's.] ---

Uh... it takes a certain amount of deliberation, time and effort to gather up a whole bunch of infants and restrain their terrified and possibly resisting mothers, stuff said lot of babies (no doubt a number of which are screaming as only babies can scream when being manhandled by strangers) into an unmanned sea vessel, and toss them into a storm. I don't see how any court or jury could consider this as anything other than pre-meditated mass murder. It's not like he was in one fell moment suddenly confronted with his incestuously gotten bastard baby and in a mad fit of thoughtless horror grabbed an ax and bashed in it's little head. Arthur obviously had the time and opportunity to talk it over with people first, then enacted a plan that involved a certain degree of drawn out labor, organization and orchestration. The ordering of his men to gather up a multitude of babies with the sole intent to kill them all... and his motive for those extra innocent deaths was simply to ensure the murder of his own baby son. While it's a smaller scale in numbers, it is not any less a calculated act than Herod's, and in some ways the motives are even worse. Herod's cold blooded, ruthless actions were based on eliminating a potential rival to his power base and not his own child -- not less horrifying for it's impersonal nature, yet somehow less stained with hypocrisy. Arthur's reactions are also cold blooded and ruthless, to kill his own infant because it's physical proof of his incestuous coupling with his own sister.

I guess in the story Pendragon "mitigating circumstances" are being manufactured? Bad advice from someone he thinks is a friend/mentor/advisor (but who secretly is an enemy?) ... I doubt a teen today who deliberately murdered a number of babies today because his friends "advised" him to would be exonerated for his deed, or considered any less guilty. Certainly "he didn't know any better" can't be used as an excuse if Arthur's legendary past schooling and experience are taken into account. I'm pretty sure murdering a lot of babies would being a bad thing was something he was aware of before he committed himself to the deed. If we play the "he's just a kid himself and not responsible for his actions" card, it is less credible when at the time period given he's by his society's measure of manhood both an adult, a blooded warrior, and an established leader of men. It's not like Arthur was a docilely led 5 year old when advised to murdering infants. What age is he in Pendragon when this infanticide went down? 12? Or older? From the use of the term "adolescent" I am led to think he's probably older than that. Old enough kill men as a professional soldier and to father children certainly. Old enough to responsible for his own actions?

Food for thought.
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Saturday, July 26, 2003 08:19:49 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Mooncat> Hey, I've got a good example for you. A person, who we'll call Meche, has ocassionally, in the past, been somewhat mean to people that she has disagreed with. Another person, who we'll call Lupe, was not actually involved in these arguments, but did watch them, and was annoyed with Meche's behavior. Ages later, months and months after the actual arguments, Meche said something that Lupe disagreed with. Normally, Lupe would have been happy to discuss the matter without any rudeness at all. She remembered those old arguments, though, and wanted to get back at Meche, just a little bit. So, she decided to be a little bit rude and really sarcastic, to get revenge for the way Meche had treated those other people ages ago. Lupe only planned on being rude the one time, since she thought that after the first time, she'd feel better, and that would be the end of it. And it did make her feel better, but, strangely, it didn't end there... because Meche, not surprisingly, didn't like it that Lupe was rude to her. She set out to get revenge on Lupe by being rude right back. Lupe was surprised to find that she wanted revenge yet again, because this time Meche had been rude to her, not just some random people not Lupe barely even knew. So, naturally, Lupe was rude again. And then, so was Meche. And so on...

Was this intelligent, mature behavior, on either of their parts?

Oy.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 26, 2003 02:39:20 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

i hate you..

aaaah, the things i will do for money...
lain
Saturday, July 26, 2003 02:32:46 AM
IP: 65.93.87.227

good lord, that's horrible spelling
gabriel
Saturday, July 26, 2003 02:32:07 AM
IP: 68.116.248.99

I can't wait my commissioned pcitreu to be posted in here >:) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
gabriel
Saturday, July 26, 2003 02:31:32 AM
IP: 68.116.248.99

Mooncat> <<you could have actually given a *proper* example...>>
Do you ever, for instance watch the news? Or read the newspaper? How many people have to kill each other in the name of revenge before you decide that just maybe it doesn't inspire people to great new intellectual heights?

<>
I'm afraid that you're not in a position to criticize on that point.

<<And yet, while you say this over and over you never bothered to even tie in one teensy example.>>
Because I don't care if you believe it or not. Obviously, you're not going to no matter how many examples people beat up over the head with. My problem was with your attitude.

<<Wow, is "polite" what they are calling it these days?>>
And I suppose that your behavior has always been polite?

<<And of course only you can deem what is proper.>>
*sighs* Fine. We're both hypocritical little bitches, then. Is this acceptable?

<<Apparently there an expiration date on facts? How convenient that would be for you.>>
You're assuming that I need the help.

<<I gave her two or three sentences in my original rebuttal to Todd's statement to show his particular example of her wasn't relevant to his supposition about Morgan, and why she acts "stupidly" in Pendragon.>>
And I agreed that it wasn't relevant. That doesn't mean that people who are consumed with revenge generally behave in an intelligent manner, it just means that he used an example that didn't actually make sense.

<<Curiously, other people than I *also* brought up points on why those specific examples didn't really relate to the whole "revenge caused her/him to be stupid" theory.>>
Which I also agreed with.

<<However it's only my statements (and only those about Demona) you seem able to focus on.>>
Hmm, could that be because I didn't have any problem with the rest of your statements, do you think? Nah, that's a crazy idea, it must be something else. (Apparently I'm not the only one who was confused.)

<>
Not really. Remember this comment: "I have to say your assessment of "revenge = stupidity" is poor logic"? I never would have even noticed your post, let alone argued with it, if you hadn't started out that way. I have at least three separate problems with that sentence, though apparently none of which are worth going into any further.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 26, 2003 02:05:19 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

greg>> well.. we could have another flame war about american foreign policy, if youd prefer...
*ahem*
*strangulates american military for killing udai and qusai*
*cough*

.. hows that?..

dezi>> *kisses* i love you. that was great!
i have a poster that says "LOST! weapons of mass destruction! last seen at specific locations in iraq.. now cant actually seem to be found. if you have any information, please call george at (202) 456-1414. REWARD!!

*giggles and runs off*
lain
Saturday, July 26, 2003 01:35:55 AM
IP: 65.93.87.227

Mooncat> <<Practical Overlord Rules>>: Trying to take over for Imzadi?

Niamhgold> <<everyone's being a little more civil than usual>>: Not enough general activity to get very uncivil.
<>: Are you sure he was drunk?
<<Though I did see Pirates>>: Did you go to the theater on Rt. 1 with the grave in the parking lot?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Saturday, July 26, 2003 01:33:40 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Please may Tuesday come soon, so as to give them some fresh material. :)
Hey, click my name, one should search everywhere for those sneaky WMDs. :)
Dezi - [<-make sure you read it, yes the site works. :)]
Saturday, July 26, 2003 01:14:25 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Okay, okay, okay. Stop. Please stop. I'd make a longer more admin-type post, but I'm tired.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, July 26, 2003 12:49:09 AM
IP: 216.179.1.234

Josh -- I aim to please *^_~* Of course this is more kitten fight than flame war, but I'm never adverse to baring a little fang if someone hisses at me.

Bud Clare - [*smirks*] --- You know, they have a medical treatment for that now.

[See, that how I got confused. I thought that I had explained that the reason that Todd hadn't given proper examples (i.e. "real life" ones) was just because most of us didn't need that particular theory proven to us. We thought that it would be like proving gravity, and as such, no one provided such examples.]

If the idea that Tom was bringing up was like gravity, *a proven physical law of the universe*, why bother to mention it then? Why bother with providing *not* proper examples to support it in the first place then? Perhaps, if instead of proclaiming that his theory is an undisputable truth (all without bothering with actual *proper* examples, since it's soooo undisputable) and droning on and on that anyone who doesn't acknowledge it simply because Bud Clare say it's so is "missing the point" you could have actually given a *proper* example... but I guess getting "confused" means the same thing as to spuriously harangue a person who dissents with something you believe is an unassailable and obvious truth. I guess anyone not in lock step with your own personal way of thinking is a source of... confusion.

[The fact that these examples were not given does not mean that such examples do not exist in abundance.]

And yet, while you say this over and over you never bothered to even tie in one teensy example. With them being in such abundance and all, you'd think that mentioning even one itty bitty relevant example wouldn't be too much of an extra effort.

[All it proves is that Todd was not, in fact, trying to prove anything.]

No? Then why pose his prose as a supposition followed by supporting arguments? If like the law of gravity his statements were stunningly obvious and inarguable, why bother stating them at all? Or is stating the obvious something only an elite few are allowed to do here?

[*smirks more* I was being polite.]

Wow, is "polite" what they are calling it these days?

[It's not a waste of time... if it's done in the proper way.]

And of course only you can deem what is proper. *wonders if smirks are catching*

[You, however, bring up the exact same point every single time someone says something which you consider to be an insult to Demona. We heard you the first time. We just didn't care.]

Wow, I'm crushed. *refrains from smirking*

Are you speaking for everyone everywhere, or is that just the "royal we" I've heard so much about? As for bringing up the same point more than once (in different conversations), pardon me for not knowing there was a use limit on logic. Apparently there an expiration date on facts? How convenient that would be for you.

As for Demona... I gave her two or three sentences in my original rebuttal to Todd's statement to show his particular example of her wasn't relevant to his supposition about Morgan, and why she acts "stupidly" in Pendragon. I also did five paragraphs on Gorlois. Curiously, other people than I *also* brought up points on why those specific examples didn't really relate to the whole "revenge caused her/him to be stupid" theory. However it's only my statements (and only those about Demona) you seem able to focus on. I guess we should be flattered. *shrugs*

>^,,^<
Mooncat
Saturday, July 26, 2003 12:39:24 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

josh>> <<!@#$ it, a flame war!>> dude, not only that, its a flame war about TGS! what the hell!? i dont think i can deal with this..
lain
Friday, July 25, 2003 11:50:47 PM
IP: 65.93.87.227

This in from CNN: Cuban immigrants use a '51 Chevy truck to reach the US.
Fire Storm
Friday, July 25, 2003 08:25:27 PM
IP: 66.72.178.104

AIRWALKER - Your point about the "less credible portions of Arthur's past" is a good one; actually, they got in largely because the original head of the project, Jeffrey High, wanted as rigid an adherence to the story in Malory as possible (including one idea that I doubt that we could ever have used in TGS seriously; there's a passage in Malory where it says that when Arthur returns from Avalon, "he shall win the holy cross", and High wanted us to have Arthur, at some point, go looking for the True Cross; that, however, didn't go down well with the rest of the staff. One of the catalysts of his decision to leave, incidentally, was when he wrote the first draft of "The Goddess of Winter" and, in his version, the flashbacks such as the Uther-Gorlois war were a novelization of the movie "Excalibur" - which went down even less well with the rest of the staff.)

As for the economics issue - I think that that's another one of those things that none of the staff ever thought of during Breakdowns - maybe it's simply a lot more obvious to the reader than to the writer. (Of course, the original series never addressed the issue of the gargoyles' maintenance while they were living in the clock tower.)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 25, 2003 05:29:03 PM
IP: 171.75.195.34

Mooncat> <<Well, in your case it would be a challenge, but I hope eventually the lessons will sink in.>>
*smirks*

<<Todd had a theory which he gave certain examples as support for it. I disagreed with his theory, and examined how the fiven examples didn't pertain to his theory, and that the original theory wasn't sound with just those examples as it's base.>>
See, that how I got confused. I thought that I had explained that the reason that Todd hadn't given proper examples (i.e. "real life" ones) was just because most of us didn't need that particular theory proven to us. We thought that it would be like proving gravity, and as such, no one provided such examples. The fact that these examples were not given does not mean that such examples do not exist in abundance. All it proves is that Todd was not, in fact, trying to prove anything. I thought that I had explained this all in a previous post, and yet you didn't seem to notice, which is how I got confused about the subject of this whole discussion. It can be rather confusing when the person that you are attempting to talk to keeps missing such a huge point, so I was hoping that I had just misunderstood what exactly it was that you were arguing about. Apparently, this is not the case.

<<Sorry if that all was terribly hard for you to understand.>>
*smirks more* I was being polite.

<<As for discussing why a writer might write a character a certain way, and motivation of a writer and how it affects the work of the writer... sorry if it's an utter waste of time to you.>>
It's not a waste of time... if it's done in the proper way. You, however, bring up the exact same point every single time someone says something which you consider to be an insult to Demona. We heard you the first time. We just didn't care.

<<But hey, since the comment room isn't "all about you">>
I don't recall saying that it was. But if I'm wrong, feel free to correct. No, really. Don't hold back, tell me how you really feel.

<<I'll dare to bring it up because it's something that interests me.>>
And you're welcome to do so. It was the timing and tone of it that bothered me; you keep using that argument like it's some kind of "Move of God" (*snickers* sorry, Hikaru no Go just smacked me upside the head), that'll just automatically win whatever argument you're currently having.

<<Maybe it's an utterly alien concept to some people to actually think about what impact the writers motivations have on their work... but what the hey.>>
How could it be utterly alien when you bring it up every few months? There aren't that many newbies.

**********************
Josh <<!@#$ it, a flame war! And I'm at work! Just wait till I get back... >>
*L* Yes, we missed you, and it seemed like the only sure way of getting you back.

****************
Niamhgold> <<I'm sick of drawing Christmas decor.>>
*winces* My condolences.

****************
Spacebabie> <<Come on you two can't we have a discussion that does not include name calling?>>
*looks innocent* I called the rest of us benighted, not her. If anything, the rest of you should be mad at me. :)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, July 25, 2003 05:05:10 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Ignore spacebabie. MORE NAME CALLING!
Josh
Friday, July 25, 2003 02:57:00 PM
IP: 17.204.22.239

Sigh a flame war?

Josh you bonehead that's a flame fart not a flame war...

I hope it doesn't escualte into a flame war over something like that...jeez

Bud-Clare, Mooncat>>>>Come on you two can't we have a discussion that does not include name calling?
Spacebabie
Friday, July 25, 2003 02:47:38 PM
IP: 4.72.104.186

Josh-- I wouldn't get too excited, since I don't think this is as big of a flame war as we're capable of. Actually, neglecting the two recent, disagreeing posts by Mooncat and Bud-Clare, everyone's being a little more civil than usual ;)

Or maybe I'm going nuts. Now most of our project load at work has shifted to holiday art (since this is the prime season to design commercial Christmas carp), and I'm sick of drawing Christmas decor. Yes, that includes big, shiny balls, and reindeer in boxer shorts. Man, and I thought Barbie was bad ;)

Lain: Ouch...I really wish I could help you out, I really really REALLY do, but as it is I understand the whole starving artist bit :( Just hang in there and check out these few sites-- http://toronto.craigslist.org/ (you're up by toronto, right?) In any case, craigslist.org has links to freelance jobs, housing, and other jobs in different areas of the country, so check that out to find opportunities in your area. It's worth a shot.

Pendragon: I've been skimming it, and I very much like the writing. I have to admit, I never was a consistent reader with Timedancer or Pendragon, and I've always felt bad...but I can see even from skimming and being a bit out of the loop that the writing and characterizations are pretty solid. Good work.

Lynati: Hmmmmm...?

Gside: I would have definitely gotten in touch with you about New Brunswick if that's where I knew I had been heading...basically I didn't know until Friday night and battled the horrid traffic from 7 until midnight ;) Then, I had my friend's boyfriend's roommate come home drunk and try to fall asleep on top of me on the couch, which soured my motivation for the rest of the weekend :P Though I did see Pirates...har har!

Well, back to Christmas (in July...Haha! ;))--everyone else have a great weekend. I'm hoping to snag a trip to Ocean City, MD, tomorrow ;)
Niamhgold
Friday, July 25, 2003 01:33:34 PM
IP: 146.145.186.33

TODD - You wrote: [Properly speaking, the term "historical Arthur" isn't that accurate when talking about the Arthur of Geoffrey of Monmouth or Malory.]

I realize that; its why I put "Historical" in quotes. (It probably would have been better for me to refer to him as Legendary; I refered to him as "Historical" not because the Legendary History is really Historical but more because I was looking at the Legendary version of the character from a more Historically inclinded viewpoint.

You wrote: [And again, I do think that you are reading into Mary's initiation things that aren't there, things that certainly weren't in the thoughts of the production staff at all when we were working on that development.]

True; mainly its clear that its largely due to a very different view of all the characters in PENDRAGON that I have as compared to what you and the staff have in mind. I don't have anything against the direction TGS is going with; its just not exactly the direction that instantaneously pops into my head as the more obvious direction when I sit down to read the episodes.

You wrote: [I do know that our discussions on the matter didn't have anything to do with the more Machiavellian interpretation that you suggested for it.]

Again its really a difference in view of the character; I don't emphasis the heroic view of Arthur when I think about the character. I think less about how a hero would think in that situation than how a Medeival King dropped in Modern Times might react.

You wrote: [And as for the baby-drowning bit; well, I certainly won't even try to excuse it. That was wrong.]

The problem I think is that perhaps too much emphasis is being put on his problematic history. While retaining it does make him a much more conflicted and interesting character, it does make him less sympathetic. Perhaps something like this would have been easier to rewrite and just say that the Legendary version was more a result of Morgana changing the history books over the centuries rather than being the truth.

You wrote: [But I will point out that Arthur was pushed into it by the man whom he thought was his most trusted advisor, when he was still in his teens, confused, and frightened over the prophecy about how the son that he had just begotten would grow up to destroy his kingdom.]

But this in a way is an attempt to make an excuse for him; the bottom line is that we aren't talking about him having made some minor mistake in something that could have been reversed or atoned for. He sanctions the murder of babies. He doesn't even have the flimsy non-excuse that he's dealing with an immediate threat. It doesn't make a difference that he didn't personally do it himself and I don't really care who's advice it was based on or how old he was at the time. It wasn't something that he planned on doing when he took the throne but he still did it. Its not just wrong, its inexcusable.

GRAYMONK - You wrote: [wouldn't the interest that accumulated over several centuries amount to a great deal of money?]

I'm not really sure; I don't know enough about English Banking. There might be a cutoff point though; either records can be lost or the bank might not want to pay if the account we are talking about is more than a century old; a 400 year old account might be too much interest for them to want to pay to a descendent.

You wrote: [Well, there's always MacBeth.]

Its a possibility although to be honest I'd like to see Arthur and friends have to deal with the Money issue rather than gloss over it. It would be interesting to see the new Knights of England having to work odd jobs to be able to afford questing or having to pawn ancient treasures that they might have or might find. Even with Merlin deaged and Arthur not even having an independent base to work out of (they tend to operate out of the Gargoyle Shop which is supposed to be a business that makes money for the clan, not a clubhouse for King Arthur) he still doesn't seem to have to worry about money.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, July 25, 2003 12:35:15 PM
IP: 12.88.197.229

!@#$ it, a flame war! And I'm at work!

Just wait till I get back...
Josh
Friday, July 25, 2003 12:07:27 PM
IP: 17.204.22.239

typo correction - given, not fiven
mc
Friday, July 25, 2003 03:20:39 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Bud Clare - "Poor, benighted us. It's a good thing that you're here to teach us proper logic." -- Well, in your case it would be a challenge, but I hope eventually the lessons will sink in. Dream a little dream.

Let's see, what was the original topic? Todd had a theory which he gave certain examples as support for it. I disagreed with his theory, and examined how the fiven examples didn't pertain to his theory, and that the original theory wasn't sound with just those examples as it's base. Sorry if that all was terribly hard for you to understand.

As for discussing why a writer might write a character a certain way, and motivation of a writer and how it affects the work of the writer... sorry if it's an utter waste of time to you. But hey, since the comment room isn't "all about you", I'll dare to bring it up because it's something that interests me. Who knows, it might even be of vague interest to someone else at sometime. Maybe it's an utterly alien concept to some people to actually think about what impact the writers motivations have on their work... but what the hey.

>^,,^<

Practical Overlord Rules -

"I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them.

When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."
Mooncat
Friday, July 25, 2003 03:18:31 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Ah, UHF, still a good movie after all these years.

Niamhgold> <<it seems to be the in-thing to be a geek>>: I've put it on my resume.
<>: Oddly enough, I went to the BCC career center on friday.

Taleweaver> <<It might actually be fun to have an immortal who doesn't know beans about history too>>: You pick up a good bit of what will be history just by being on the continent during the decade it was happening. It might be better to make it someone who keeps confusing little things with the big things, and refers to historical figures by their less remembered nicknames.

Yggdrasil> <>: I hope never to go back down.

Lain> <<my cats have one scoop of kibble left>>: Can you get cat food from a food bank?
<<come on people! you know youve always wanted lains art!>>: Sorry, but I think I'll keep on being a cheap little !@#$.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Friday, July 25, 2003 02:08:48 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Oy... I typed this up two days ago, and am just now getting around to posting it. I was hoping to wait until I was alert enough to proofread a bit, but I've given up. Just too tired. *collapses*

********************
Spacebabie> <>
*L* Insidious, isn't it?

*******************
Mooncat> <<Actually, I don't have to "try to claim" anything, because it's a bald fact every stupid, smart, silly, serious etc thing Demona has ever done and will ever do IS the result of a writer's fancy.>>
Gosh, thanks for pointing that out. I get so confused without you around to explain things to me. Also, thank you for completely missing my point. I meant that you can't just single out one type of action (stupid, as opposed to smart, or whatever) and blame that on the writer, while ignoring that the writer is responsible for the whole character. You can either discuss a writer's motivations for having a character act a certain way (which, in my opinion, is usually a complete and utter waste of time), OR you can discuss the character's actions in the context of the story. You can not, however, switch back and forth between the two whenever you decide that you don't like the way the discussion is going. That's more "card stacking" than anything the rest of us have done. You don't want to discuss Demona as anything other than a fictional character who is a puppet to the evil whims of the writer? Fine. Just don't expect us to care.

<<yeah, if you actually are a real person and have free will, the probability is that you'll do something stupid sooner or later.>>
Probability? Sooner or later? *boggles*

<<Much as anyone would like to revile her for making bad choices,>>
What is it with your persecution complex? WE ARE NOT ALL OUT TO GET DEMONA. We may seriously disagree with her actions, but no one, NO ONE, is reviling her. And yet everytime she is mentioned, you start getting paranoid and shift the blame from her to the writers. Great. I will admit that the writers are to blame for poor Demona's plight. Now... what exactly have you accomplished? Aside from getting me to admit something which, at the end of the day, was so insanely obvious that no one but you would bother to even bring it up, much less bring it up everytime someone says something about Demona that you don't like? (Incidentally, you seem to be under the impression that writers have absolute control over their creations, which makes me wonder which rock you've been living under.)

<>
That's great, but I'm pretty sure that no one ever set out to prove anything of the sort. Incidentally, your little simplification of the topic actually being discussed to "revenge = stupidity" could be construed as a Straw Man. You may have meant it as a convenient abbreviation or maybe you even genuinely believe it to be an accurate paraphrasing of the opposing viewpoint, but it looks rather like a cheap attempt to win an argument through misrepresentation.

<>
*L* Yes, I'm sure that must be it. Poor, benighted us. It's a good thing that you're here to teach us proper logic.

<<plain facts that actually pertain to the actual topics under question.>>
What exactly _is_ the topic in question? Because I reread your last posts to try to make some sense of your line of reasoning, and I still haven't a clue what you're talking about. What exactly was the point of all this?
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, July 25, 2003 12:21:40 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

right so um.. just to be TOTALLY off topic..

******WARNING!! BEGGING IMMINENT!!!!******
right so.. heres the problem.
i got paid today. i thought i was going to get paid enough to pay rent on the first of next month. i didnt. i dont get paid for another 2 weeks, at which point it will be too late. i discovered this morning that my cats have one scoop of kibble left. and i dont have enough money to scan artwork for TGS this week.

i mentioned it before, but this is now the official prostration at your feet.

i will do art for cheap.
i will draw whatever the HELL you want. ill even draw heroic american army gargoyles, draped in US flags.. im desprate, people..
my comission fee? I DONT HAVE ONE! ill take whatever you have.

come on people! you know youve always wanted lains art!
email me, PLEASE!
******END BEGGING******
lain - [sanchinwalkerAThotmailDOTcom]
Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:24:50 PM
IP: 65.93.85.39

Airwalker - <<If he doesn't really have that much need for money then it leads to the question - would he even bother to save enough through various accounts that he would have a tremendous fortune?>>

He would if he thought he might need it in case of emergency, such as being depowered (he needed money to maintain his Emrys and Sylvester Hawkins idenities) or perhaps he thoguht Arthur would need funding when it was time to wake up.

Besides, the English banking system has been around for centuries. Even if Merlin made one small deposit in several different banks when they were 1st incorporated and never thought about the accounts again, wouldn't the interest that accumulated over several centuries amount to a great deal of money?

<<And if he doesn't have a fortune then we come back to the originally asked question - How exactly does Arthur fund his various quests/expeditions?>>

Well, there's always MacBeth. He can easily afford hovercraft, at least two vertical take off airplanes, numerous lightning casting guns, air sleds, etc. And he's told Arthur any time the Once and future King needs help he'll be happy to supply it.
Graymonk - [mmckinnongra@hotmail.com]
Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:21:20 PM
IP: 156.34.233.110

*de lurks after a lonnggg time*

Is anyone in here going to Otakon? *shy smile* Ill be there hanging out if you need a buddy to relax with =)
Bronx
Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:12:05 PM
IP: 68.54.115.173

AIRWALKER - Properly speaking, the term "historical Arthur" isn't that accurate when talking about the Arthur of Geoffrey of Monmouth or Malory. The "historical Arthur" is a figure in post-Roman Britain who may or may not have existed (historians are still divided on that question), but who, if he did, was most likely a war-leader rather than a king, fighting against invading Saxons. He certainly wouldn't have dressed up in armor of the sort that the Arthur of "Gargoyles" wore - in that time period, fighting-men in Britain would have been more likely to dress the way that Macbeth and Duncan's soldiers did in the "City of Stone" flashbacks. When speaking of the Arthur of Geoffrey of Monmouth and Malory, "legendary Arthur" would be more appropriate.

And again, I do think that you are reading into Mary's initiation things that aren't there, things that certainly weren't in the thoughts of the production staff at all when we were working on that development. I can't say too much about the direct scene in "The Mists of Eynhallow" since Ed wrote it rather than me - and unfortunately, he's away from the comment room for a couple of weeks and so is unable to answer any questions about it - but I do know that our discussions on the matter didn't have anything to do with the more Machiavellian interpretation that you suggested for it. I know that Ed would certainly have been astonished if he'd heard that theory about Arthur's motivations applied to the scene in question.

And as for the baby-drowning bit; well, I certainly won't even try to excuse it. That was wrong. But I will point out that Arthur was pushed into it by the man whom he thought was his most trusted advisor (but who was really only disguised as Merlin and not the real Merlin), when he was still in his teens, confused, and frightened over the prophecy about how the son that he had just begotten would grow up to destroy his kingdom. It wasn't the same sort of thing as, say, Duncan in "City of Stone" deliberately sitting down and scheming against Macbeth or even Uther chasing after Igraine from a grown man's lust rather than an adolescent weakness. It's a serious matter to deal with, but was not a calculated crime like King Herod's.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 24, 2003 09:34:44 PM
IP: 171.75.195.5

GRAYMONK - You wrote: [The impression I got was that Merlin, after a normal regeneration, doesn't seem to need money all that much.]

If he doesn't really have that much need for money then it leads to the question - would he even bother to save enough through various accounts that he would have a tremendous fortune? And if he doesn't have a fortune then we come back to the originally asked question - How exactly does Arthur fund his various quests/expeditions?

You wrote: [Does he really need money, other than maybe a little pocket cash?]

But if he didn't have a need for money then its seems logical that getting money just to save it wouldn't be high on his list. And if thats so then would he have amassed a massive fortune to tap? If all he needs is some pocket money then wouldn't he just materialize it (or if he became more technically inclinded as the centuries pass - print it) and keep it handy rather than have secret, hard to get to bank accounts all over Europe?

TALEWEAVER - You wrote: [I wish there were only a set number of ways someone can obtain immortality.]

When you actually sit down to think about it there aren't really that many ways to get true immortality. You either have science or magic at the root. And from those two only magic at this point seems to provide anything close to what we would really call immortality (i.e. being alive forever without being able to die without obscure loophole as differentiated from extended life and youth who can be killed like everyone else and will die if given enough eons).

Either someone casts a spell on you (Demona, Harthoth) or you cast a spell on yourself (Morgana; at least thats the closest to what I figure she did). Everyone else is long lived and not truely immortal (Umbriel, Stacy and Anna Xanatos, Halflings in general) can be killed and are only living longer due to the presence of magic in their blood.

You wrote: [Merlin's kids]

Don't get me started! :-)

You wrote: [The TGS universe is rife with them.]

The problem ties mostly into the Fey origins of the TGS universe. Everything there ties into the Fey and their magic in some way. Not only that but the Unseelie came to so dominate early TGS that we got Halflings running around left and right, together with full Fey that got let out of Avalon so soon after being Gathered (Why even Gather then if your going to let them leave so soon after? Doesn't that make dragging (or trying to drag back) the Banshee and Puck meaningless?) - magic is just emphasised to such a point that you start to wonder why Xanatos was having such a hard time managing to get his hands on some stable amount to get his bit of long life/immortality. (Hell, didn't someone actually mail him the ability to become immortal somewhere in S2?)

You wrote: [It appears that mortality is negotiable. If someone wishes to be immortal it isn't that hard nor expensive to obtain.]

The price for all this seems to have gone down; although that could be that from the list almost none of them is really immortal, just long lived. Merlin uses magic to rejuvinate himself once he gets old and that lets him live for centuries but he's not really immortal - he could be killed or die if he isn't given the opportunity to work on himself. Umbriel and the Halflings are also just long lived - they can easily be killed and eventually they have to age. It just takes forever for them to do so depending on how much magic they have in their blood. There are very few actual immortals - Demona and Macbeth can only die if they kill each other. Otherwise they aren't aging and will get up after being killed. They are really immortal.

You wrote: [I think he wouldn't clone himself instead going straight to the source: Goliath.]

I don't know about that; on the one hand, it makes sense since he would encounter less difficulties cloning Goliath than cloning the clone of Goliath i.e himself. But on the other hand he does have identity issues and might not like to emphasis, particularly to himself, his clone heritage. That might be enough that he would only use Goliath if he was unable to successfully clone himself.

You wrote: [That's the other thing that bothers me about these immortals. No one is actually working to make a living.]

That comes down to my original question that related to PENDRAGON - How are they funding all these quests? If Merlin has no use for money then odds seem good he wouldn't bother storing large quantities of it. So he shouldn't really have that much. In which case do the Merry Men work odd jobs off screen and give all their money to Arthur? Or is he slowly bankrupting the London Gargoyles?

GARGOYLES has the advantage that they are basically leeching off of a multi-billionare. (And in the 1994-1996 era they basically lived in poverty but didn't seem to ask for as much as they do when they moved in with Xanatos; can anyone picture the same type of Angela/Broadway wedding TGS gave us if they were still living off the pittance Elisa calls a salary?) TIMEDANCER doesn't need money and when he does he tends to find that the descendents of that multi-billionare are prepared to let him leech off of them too.

You wrote: [Its cool that most have day-jobs but seriously which immortal would fret if they got fired.]

Unestablished immortals would worry. Demona, Macbeth, Morgana - they all already have fortunes and once money isn't a bother then you don't worry about it so much. We haven't really seen any recently became immortal immortals. If I for example became immortal today then with my bank account being what it is I'd spend a century or two just saving money and investing so that I could spend my 300's and up ages more comfortable.

You wrote: [Demona technically isn't fired from Nightstone. What is she in relation to the company? On Sabattical? Early retirement?]

Demona seems to be spending her time on an extensive tour of the pubs of Europe. :-)

KAIOTO - You wrote: [This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, honestly, considering 35 was over-the-hill for a human in Scotland (natural life expectancy of perhaps 45-50 years) - while MacBeth was depicted as youthful.]

I think that his relative youth despite his advanced for the time age was a way to emphasis how despite some of the hardships he had experienced, the life of a royal (and a positive attitude reenforced by a loving family) was light ages away from anything that Demona was going through and has a positive effect on a person.

You wrote: [After the transformation, however, Demona looks to be exactly in her prime while MacBeth's hair goes completely white.]

Actually for a 50-ish year old medieval man Macbeth didn't look so bad. And while the two of them were rolled back (or forward in Macbeth's case) to 35 and 50, that doesn't mean that the Weird Sisters put them in the physical position that they both were (or would be in Macbeth's case) at that age. They needed warriors after all and might have gone with making her into a 25-ish feeling 35 year old while he became a 40 year old 50-ish.

You wrote: [The results of the Coldstone Experiment were a mess.]

But Merlin doesn't know that.

You wrote: [Titania's immense Fay powers managed to get Coldsteel and Coldfire into seperate mechanical bodies]

Alex did that with help from Puck. Titania was the one who violated the entire "don't interfer" premise of the original series and the entire "Fey can't give life" premise that TIMEDANCER established to restore Coldstone and Coldfire to living flesh and blood bodies.

You wrote: [I suspect if solving the matter were just an issue of moving Merlin from one body or vessel to another, the Fay could have handled it.]

Don't overestimate the Fey; they tend to be limited by imagination. After all neither Oberon or Titania suggested a body transfer. The best they had was for Arthur to go looking for the Grail.

You wrote: [And exactly what happens to a soul if someone botches a soul transfer spell?]

The soul will return to the original body? (BEAST WARS has what can be described as a soul tranfer plot and the spark tended to return to the body it was most recently in; that seems to be the most reasonable suggestion.)

You wrote: [Personally, I'd take my chances with the Grail over Demona's offer - especially after Titania's advice back on Avalon.]

Demona didn't really offer anything specific - just to help him if they are in allience; he's not really taking a risk if he joins her. (In fact the only risk in joining her is that he is wasting time that he could use finding the Grail. But then again the same could be said about spending time finding the Grail instead of working with Demona to get himself a cure. There isn't any guarantee that the Grail will work or even let him use itself as a cure.)

TODD - You wrote: [The reason why you don't feel that impressed with the TGS Arthur is that you don't feel impressed with Arthur in general?]

I don't actually have anything against TGS Arthur; the character is actually relatively ok guy who is trying to make an effort. But I don't have a very positive view of the "Historical" Arthur and it does tend to influence how I look at Arthur in general and in TGS in particular. I don't purposefully set out to look for negative bits when reading the stories he's in; but given that the TGS version of the character has been grounded strongly in the "historical" account and maintains a lot of the less savory bits, I take that into account a lot.

For example (and I don't really want to drive this example into the ground, having mentioned so often but since its recent I figure I might as well go with it) when we had the situation where Mary received her title of Squire. I looked at the situation and said to myself:

"Why would Arthur suddenly have such a reaction to Mary when he's been travelling with her for such a long time? Why bring up any objection to her joining a GrailHunt? Is he really afraid that she is going to be in danger despite having gone through so much danger with him and his group up to this point? It doesn't make sense - is the Morrigan or that town where she got cursed any less dangerous than the Grail? Or could he have a different reason for not wanting her along? And if it is a different reason then what could it be?"

"Well since TGS Arthur does incorporate a large part of the Arthur Myth, maybe that is where the answer lies. Could it be that given that she is the only girl in the group gathered at the moment that he as a medieval man in general might have an objection to that? But would that fit? After all Leba and Duciella are considered Knights in good standing? Could it be that perhaps a medieval sensibility might be emerging in terms of the Grail, something he never sought and that killed a large chunk of his powerful and trusted male Knights? Would he perhaps find it distastefull to have a 15 year old girl along on what he hopes will be a successful search and would that tarnish the view of all his famous Knights if she succeeded where they failed?"

Its not exactly an unrealistic train of thought if we are dealing with a medieval man who was ahead of his time but despite living in the 20th century for a few years isn't going to ever exactly be completely up to date? Its not unreasonable to think that Arthur would think like not only a medieval king but also a medieval man.

From that point we get Mary giving a pretty successful argument against Arthur in full view of Merlin and Griff who are probably more inclinded to agree with Mary than Arthur. And then Arthur jumps in with his suggestion of Mary being a Squire. I can see how victory might distract her from feeling insulted but why jump directly from not wanting her along to suddenly offering her a title? It didn't bother him or anyone else before that she had no title. Why bring it up now?

"Why? Could it be that this is Medieval King Arthur turning the situation to his advantage and saving face in front of Merlin who has a thing for Mary and Griff who being a Gargoyle wouldn't see any problem with having a female "warrior" along on a GrailHunt? Could an offer of title be a distraction to turn a losing argument into a winning situation, a chance to save face?"

After all wouldn't a king, especially one who managed to stay on the throne for a long time in medieval times, think like that? When I sit down to read PENDRAGON I try to reconsile the bastard of Legend who could so easily send babies to death with the hero who is supposed to be wandering around England now looking for the Grail to help out his sick friend. And that tends to point me in the direction of looking at him less as a hero and more as a Medieval King. A Hero inspires a person to see the positive in him and what he does - mentioning the words Medieval and King get me started on a less than positive train of thought.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 24, 2003 08:09:25 PM
IP: 12.88.197.32

Actually, it was Alex (with some coaching from Puck) who got the Coldtrio into separate bodies, rather than Titania.

AIRWALKER - After reading your mention of your not being that enthusiastic about Arthur, I can understand somewhat better many of the comments that you've made in your "Pendragon" reviews - as in, the reason why you don't feel that impressed with the TGS Arthur is that you don't feel impressed with Arthur in general? Have I interpreted your statement correctly?
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 24, 2003 07:00:02 PM
IP: 171.75.194.45

Lynati:<<if anyone knows if an image of the 2004 mascot is posted somewhere and can link me, I'd appreciatre it.>>

You mean like the big image on the "Gathering of the Gargoyles 2004" Homepage? :-)
Leo - [<- G2004 . he he]
Thursday, July 24, 2003 06:49:46 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Josh- next semester. I'm casting glass right now, not bronze, and I wouldn't want to give you less than what you are expecting. so talk to me in a month or so, and I'll see what I can do.

Niamhgold: hmm....

the thailog/clone/immortality discussion:
Aaron did that in his fic, having non-programmed clones and Thailog makign a deal with a demonic entity of sorts to move his soul (yeah, that includes his evil little mind) to the next one whenever his current body was killed or damaged past usefulness.

there seems to be a special deal on computers linked in mara's livejournal...I wonder if that inlcudes laptops...

oh,a nd if anyone knows if an image of the 2004 mascot is posted somewhere and can link me, I'd appreciatre it.

might be able to get back online next monday. gotto go cast gates now. gates with COPPER in them. different sorts. MWAH!
Lynati - [Lynati_1@hotmail.com]
Thursday, July 24, 2003 06:34:49 PM
IP: 63.175.19.254

Greetings;

I came across this film on the net and thought some people in the CR would like it. It's a Batman fan film done as a directorial promo. Altogether it's really quite well done. The atmosphere is very well developed, and although the acting needs a bit of work it's one of the best film adaptations of Batman that I have ever seen. Finally Batman has been cast using a physically fit individual, who doesn�t need formed plastic to give him definition... if only he were a better martial artist.

Note: For all you die-hard Batman purists out there you might want to stop watching after about 3:00. The movie goes on a crossover tangent. You have been warned.

The file is about 48MB so I hope you have high speed.

Yggdrasil - [eng050599@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Thursday, July 24, 2003 04:23:30 PM
IP: 129.97.24.57

Airwalker >>

<>

Yeah, you're correct. I went back over the Ask Greg archives on that one.

MacBeth was supposedly 35 and Demona 100 (50 in human terms) when they were bound together by the Weird Sisters. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, honestly, considering 35 was over-the-hill for a human in Scotland (natural life expectancy of perhaps 45-50 years) - while MacBeth was depicted as youthful. Demona at 50 years old (in a natural lifespan that averaged 75 or son thanks to stone sleep) looked positively ancient, but you could blame that on a hard life. After the transformation, however, Demona looks to be exactly in her prime while MacBeth's hair goes completely white. Those ages never quite fit in my mind, I guess.

<< Doesn't she still have the Coldstone spell in her possession? Couldn't she have just offered a combination of science and sorcery? >>

Honestly, no promises there. She lost a LOT in that hostile takeover by Thailog. She probably has the spell, but even then, I wouldn't take those odds, honestly. The results of the Coldstone Experiment were a mess. Titania's immense Fay powers managed to get Coldsteel and Coldfire into seperate mechanical bodies, but that was a completely different brand of magic on non-Fay creatures.

Merlin is a Halfling, currently afflicted by a poison enhanced by the "Dark Arts" that even Oberon can't fiddle with. I suspect if solving the matter were just an issue of moving Merlin from one body or vessel to another, the Fay could have handled it. Merlin may not very much like the idea of being moved from one body to another either - nevermind liking the odds of him surviving a volitile mix of human sorcery, Dark Arts, and Fay blood.

And exactly what happens to a soul if someone botches a soul transfer spell? The possibility of a fate worth than death is definitely something to take into consideration. Personally, I'd take my chances with the Grail over Demona's offer - especially after Titania's advice back on Avalon.

<< I'm not entirely sure about that; Xanatos seems to have something holding him back from the scientific transfered brainwaves in a clone type of immortality (i.e. he was brought up to believe in the idea of the soul and no matter how removed or secular he is, some part of him still holds to that idea) but Thailog has nothing in his history or upbringing to have anything against the idea. (Yes technically it would just be another clone programmed to think that it was Thailog but Thailog might be able to live with that.) >>

Honestly, I don't think it would work. Even with perfect clones and super-computers, we don't have much reason to believe that science can replicate individuals with enough accuracy to consider them to the same person. Unless they see it as direct body-hopping of their original consciousness, I doubt either would go in for it. Thailog is too selfish to create any other individual, even one who thinks he is the original Thailog. Xanathos already has a son to carry on after him - why would he want a clone - to immortalize his dashing good looks? Take a picture, Mr. Xanathos, it'll last longer. :)

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Thursday, July 24, 2003 03:04:53 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Hello all,

I thought I'd jump in on the immortality part of the issue. It seems a lot of fun. I wish there were only a set number of ways someone can obtain immortality. The TGS universe is rife with them. We've got Demona/Macbeth through a magical spell, Merlin through some magical rejuvenation, Morgana through some different sort (Maybe it's the same, but Morgana's appeared in different time periods and she's always an adult female), then there's Lancelot/Duval, Nimue, Umbriel in the future Alexander's daughters Anna and Stacy, Merlin's kids, a passal of halflings and of course my main man, Harthoth.

It appears that mortality is negotiable. If someone wishes to be immortal it isn't that hard nor expensive to obtain.

I don't think Thailog would adverse to a preprogrammed clone, but I think he wouldn't clone himself instead going straight to the source: Goliath. Whether and how much change a genome undergoes during cloning aside, I think Thailog is egotistical enough to believe nurture is the key. After all, there isn't anything overriding in Goliath's nature that Thailog picked up. I think Thailog will want to live forever but only if its comfortable.

That's the other thing that bothers me about these immortals. No one is actually working to make a living. I believe this was the line of thought that brought us to this discussion in the first place. Apparently, every immortal knew to save the right stuff that would be valuable in the future to sell ala "Vows". No one is still dirt poor or struggling to make a living wage. Its cool that most have day-jobs but seriously which immortal would fret if they got fired. Demona technically isn't fired from Nightstone. What is she in relation to the company? On Sabattical? Early retirement? There's little doubt once Thailog is out of the picture, Demona would resume her role as CEO and Chairman of the Board. Give me an immortal who knows the value of a dollar, pound, or Euro. It might actually be fun to have an immortal who doesn't know beans about history too. "How can you not know about the Battle of Hastings? Weren't you there?" "Nope, I was chasing after this lovely barmaid at this quaint Spanish inn. Why? Was it important?" I know people remember where they are when significant or historic things happen, but history is expereinced when folks look back on events rarely during.

I'll end it here. Back to the salt mines.
Taleweaver
Thursday, July 24, 2003 02:52:55 PM
IP: 24.205.177.107

Airwalker - << I mean Merlin has been around, living on his own for centuries - why come up with a system that leaves open a small possibility for getting screwed out of your money especially in the age of joint accounts and bank cards? >>

Well, the story implied that A)This wasn't so much all his money as it was a small reserve account that he kept in a bank in Britain. The name of the person Merlin inherited from in that scene wasn't Sylvester Hawkins so Merlin may have multiple bank accounts or caches of wealth that he can access. B) He'd opened the account back in the days when Banks were fisrt established in Britain, long before bank cards and joint accounts were created.

The impression I got was that Merlin, after a normal regeneration, doesn't seem to need money all that much. After all if he normally lives in his crystal cave and can teleport when at full power (as seen in "The Stone of Destiney") does he really need money, other than maybe a little pocket cash? We still have little idea of what a regular life for Merlin is like, after all, he was only living with his Sylvester Hawkins robot because he was weak and hiding from his enemies.
Graymonk - [mmckinnongra]
Thursday, July 24, 2003 01:05:34 PM
IP: 137.149.84.20

KAIOTO - You wrote: [It takes more than a brainwave scan and a cloning vat to actually transfer a - person - from one body to another.]

Doesn't she still have the Coldstone spell in her possession? Couldn't she have just offered a combination of science and sorcery?

You wrote: [Considering that David Xanathos never manages to achieve immortality, I think it is safe to assume Thailog won't either.]

I'm not entirely sure about that; Xanatos seems to have something holding him back from the scientific transfered brainwaves in a clone type of immortality (i.e. he was brought up to believe in the idea of the soul and no matter how removed or secular he is, some part of him still holds to that idea) but Thailog has nothing in his history or upbringing to have anything against the idea. (Yes technically it would just be another clone programmed to think that it was Thailog but Thailog might be able to live with that.)

Besides if one of Xanatos' Alexanders is going to be immortal (or at least long lived) then why shouldn't both of them be? Its more interesting for Xanatos accepting that the only immortality he can get is through his son and that in the end all of them become immortal and outlive him? (Its not just Alex Xanatos and Thailog either - we also have Cyoti to account for as well. And it wouldn't shock me if Cyoti took an alias containing the name Alex too.)

You wrote: [That said, Demona - does - simply have the option of letting Thailog grow old and die if she truly isn't in a big rush.]

That is an option but the way I remember it, Thailog isn't just sitting quietly and letting her just wait out a century for him to die; he is moving against her which requires that she take some steps in the here and now to deal with him. And of course there is the fact that he's her ex-lover and she'd prefer to slowly murder him for fun and profit. :-)

You wrote: [while Demona is ever trapped in her early 20's.]

I thought that Demona was supposed to be somewhere in the area of 35.

GRAYMONK - You wrote: [Yep, I'm serious, here's the scene, from "Beginning Again by Todd and Aaron Ziegler, plotted by Kathy Pogge:]

Wow. I know that it didn't bother me when it was written and I originally read it but reading it back now it sounds so Harry Potter-ish and even a bit silly. I mean Merlin has been around, living on his own for centuries - why come up with a system that leaves open a small possibility for getting screwed out of your money especially in the age of joint accounts and bank cards?

TODD - You wrote: [Not to mention that even if it didn't, there could be other problems. Anybody remember that episode with Mr. Freeze in "Batman Beyond"?]

Yeah, that was the best episode of that series; still cloning technology in the Gargoyles Universe is much more advanced than in the Batman Beyond reality. And on top of that in the Freeze episode they were trying to clone someone with deep damage on the cellular level. Anyone making more clones of Thailog shouldn't have as bad a time as Freeze had.

You wrote: [Merlin does have some prior knowledge of Demona's actions in TGS. In the "Dark Ages" episode "Wanderer", he stops by Castle Wyvern disguised as a wandering minstrel and has various "prophetic flashes" regarding the gargoyles there]

Is it realistic to say that he'd remember in detail some short flashes he had about random members of a Clan he visited a thousand years ago? I can accept it if we say he remembered visiting a Gargoyle Clan in the area and even if he might remember something spectacular happening in that area (I could buy him remembering the Trio since seeing the three of them together in modern times might trigger some "you look so familier, I've seen you before!" response) but honestly is he going to remember ever single flash he's had, particularly on a clan that he visited for a day in 971 and then had no contact with for more than a thousand years?

You wrote: [Also, in "In the Blood", Angela talks a little about Demona to Merlin.]

That would be much better as a source although if Angela was the one talking to him then should he really have been that suspicious? Angela in TGS isn't exactly going to give a completely unbiased desciption of Demona to anyone.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:25:05 PM
IP: 12.88.200.222

Todd Jensen ><Not to mention that even if it didn't, there could be other problems. Anybody remember that episode with Mr. Freeze in "Batman Beyond"? >

Yes but that was a very different situation there. It was implied that the accident that created Mr. Freeze altered the fellows genetic structure so no matter what they did he would still eventually end up back at square one in the cryogenic suit. On the other hand, the poison created by Morgana couldn't have gotten into Merlin's genes so a freshly cloned body wouldn't suffer from the effects of the poisoning and if it did they could always get DNA samples that existed before Merlin's poisoning to create a new body.
Question
Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:37:15 AM
IP: 204.235.237.65

Todd Jensen ><Not to mention that even if it didn't, there could be other problems. Anybody remember that episode with Mr. Freeze in "Batman Beyond"? >

Yes but that was a very different situation there. It was implied that the accident that created Mr. Freeze altered the fellows genetic structure so no matter what they did he would still eventually end up back at square one in the cryogenic suit. On the other hand, the poison created by Morgana couldn't have gotten into Merlin's genes so a freshly cloned body wouldn't suffer from the effects of the poisoning and if it did they could always get DNA samples that existed before Merlin's poisoning to create a new body.
Anonymous
Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:36:29 AM
IP: 204.235.237.65

Blah, busy day at work. Heck, a busy month. But I just wanted to say that it's good to see TGS plot-threads the topic of conversation here again in the CR.

Lynati: I wish I could take a Pheonix Gate off of you, but I can't offer you the $ you deserve (again, awesome piece) ;) Still waiting to get some of my artwork shipped back from Gathering, anyways, though I don't think I'm getting much back.

Andrea: <I feel so odd..two of my favorite modern day shows are made by Disney (as you may have guessed, they are Kim Possible and Gargoyles), and I'm going to be 20 in January. Lucky for me my best friend is my age and into this stuff too...otherwise I'd be a total outcast> That's not surprising at all. Unlike 50 years ago, it seems to be the in-thing to be a geek, and now there are more geek-wannabies than the jock-wannabies of a few decades past.

Spacebabie: <Somebody needs to take up the slack of posting strange Ebay stuff> Did you catch the kid who was auctioning "use of his head" for $25,000 a year? His rationale was that you could use his head to tatoo any sort of advertising campaign you wanted to, for an entire year. I say he's overpriced ;)

I'm going back to work and playing with my Gimp Floaties. I went to visit my friend in New Brunswick last weekend and she sent me back with a care package, which included bright-orange swimmer's arm floaties upon which she had tire-ironed the word GIMP in silver lettering ;) Then, traditionally, my silly vehicle overheatted on the way home.

Monkeys!
Niamhgold
Thursday, July 24, 2003 09:29:24 AM
IP: 146.145.186.33

Lain> <<good GOD people, what the hell is this, a TGS comment room or something>>: Go easy on them. You know it'll die down between seasons.

Andrea> <<otherwise I'd be a total outcast>>: You say that like it's a bad thing.

And now for another song no one else will like, Look What They've Done to My Song Ma, by Melanie.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:38:57 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

lain - I know! This is absurd! How dare we post TGS comments in the TGS comment room!

I'll start getting in on this reviewing action once Dark Ages season 3 premiers in, oh, 2007 or so...

And despite the fact that I haven't heard the entire song yet, I have the "Say the Word" song (by Christy Carlson Romano) from the Kim Possible sountrack (they have a mini-video on the air, and a another clip online) stuck in my head...

I feel so odd..two of my favorite modern day shows are made by Disney (as you may have guessed, they are Kim Possible and Gargoyles), and I'm going to be 20 in January. Lucky for me my best friend is my age and into this stuff too...otherwise I'd be a total outcast.
Andrea - [takarifreak@dark-stars.net]
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:49:28 PM
IP: 209.91.49.213

good GOD people, what the hell is this, a TGS comment room or something!?
lain
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 09:58:32 PM
IP: 65.93.84.144

Despite my busy work schedule, I have been reading pendragon. Awesome stories, folks.

Lynati: <<phoenix gates>>: I would like one if you're willing to part with it (in exchange for a stack of cash, of course). Bonus $$ for scale and detail ;-)
Josh
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 08:43:31 PM
IP: 17.204.22.239

Just to help Greg out.

I asked Todd to go to the Questions submitted section of ASK GREG to find out how many people have posted their Gathering diaries. The answer: 17 (not including me). That's great in and of itself, and I'd like to thank the following people:

Spacebabie
Revel
kathy
Vashkoda
Carter
Patrick Toman
Karine/Kanthara
Ellen
Mooncat
Allaine
Greg Bishansky
Andrea
John Clemens aka Flanker
Shaun "BrooklynX"
Mandi "Mandolin" Ohlin
Gorebash
Kelly L Creighton

But considering that over 100 people attended this year, that's kind of a pathetic number. So I'm making one final plea -- which I hope you all will pass on to anyone you know who attended -- that you post a G2003 Diary/Journal/Log at ASK GREG before the details of your trip become fuzzy beyond recovery. It would really help me out. Thanks.
Greg Weisman
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 07:14:15 PM
IP: 66.81.252.159
Greg Bishansky
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 07:42:30 PM
IP: 216.179.1.189

KAIOTO - [As much as she tried to sell Merlin the "programmed clone" idea, I'm going to go with the wizard on this one. It takes more than a brainwave scan and a cloning vat to actually transfer a - person - from one body to another.]

Not to mention that even if it didn't, there could be other problems. Anybody remember that episode with Mr. Freeze in "Batman Beyond"?

AIRWALKER - Actually, Merlin does have some prior knowledge of Demona's actions in TGS. In the "Dark Ages" episode "Wanderer", early in Season One, he stops by Castle Wyvern disguised as a wandering minstrel (actually, we only revealed that that minstrel was Merlin much later on in the series), and has various "prophetic flashes" regarding the gargoyles there, among whom is Demona - we don't reveal outright what he sees, but it's indicated by his response that it was her general genocidal and villainous career. (He also got "prophetic flashes" of the ColdTrio's "high-tech" future, Goliath and Elisa's love for each other, Broadway's remarks about him in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", Goliath encountering the various Third Race tricksters during the Avalon World Tour, Lexington being betrayed by Madoc, Brooklyn's Timedancer adventures, the Archmage getting his hands on the "ultimate power" in "Avalon", and at the very end, the Wyvern massacre.)

Also, in "In the Blood", Angela talks a little about Demona to Merlin.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 07:30:19 PM
IP: 171.75.194.186

<[It was established in Season Two ("Beginning Again" I believe) that Merlin has a fairly large bank account that he can access by presenting the teller a specific ring and saying the code word "Empsulor" (or something like that).]

I don't have time right now to go back and read the story - are you serious? It sounds like something out of Harry Potter. >

Umm, I don't have time to backtrack this conversation to see if this has been pointed out yet, but he can't just walk into any bank and do that. it was a specific bank he was showing proof of person to, to receive his inheritance. I imagine he was set up with a proper account after he acquired the money.

hot glass rules. I'm gonna cast me a whole slew of phoenix gates...mwahaha...
Lynati
I'M IN A LIBRARY IN MICHIGAN!!
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 07:23:04 PM
IP: 63.175.19.254

********Spoilers for TGS season 2********

Airwalker - Yep, I'm serious, here's the scene, from "Beginning Again by Todd and Aaron Ziegler, plotted by Kathy Pogge:

"So, Mr. Pennington," said the bank clerk, frowning at Arthur, "let me see if I understand you correctly. This nephew of yours-"

"My ward," Arthur corrected him.

"Ah, yes," said the clerk, nodding. "Your ward. So he's the sole heir of Mr.-" he looked over the documents in front of him again "-William Nicholson, who died five years ago."

Arthur nodded. "We had just recently come to London, and were cleaning out some old family records when we learned about Mr. Nicholson's bank account here. And since we happen to be in need of funds, we considered it advisable to make a withdrawal."

"I see," said the bank clerk. "And can you provide us with proof, Mr. Pennington, that Master Emrys Hawkins is indeed the heir of Mr. Nicholson?"

"I can, sir," said Emrys quietly. He pulled out of his pocket a silver ring with the image of a Roman lyre engraved upon it. "The terms of Mr. Nicholson's last will and testament was that his heir would present a ring answering to this description at this bank, to claim his inheritance. Is that right?" he asked in a tone of careful diffidence, turning to Arthur.

Arthur Pennington nodded. "Quite correct," he said.

"That's not enough for me," said the bank clerk suspiciously. "How do I know that you didn't steal that trinket from the rightful heir? That wouldn't be impossible, after all."

"There's also the password," Emrys continued.

"Password?" the clerk asked.

Emrys nodded. "The documentation mentioned the password, although it didn't name it. But I know the password. And I can give it to you."

"Well, then," said the clerk. "Let me hear it."

"Esplumeor," said Emrys. "That's the password."

The clerk frowned, and looked over one of the documents in front of him. "Well, that seems accurate enough," he said. "I would say that the evidence that you have given us is convincing." He was silent for a moment, then added, "How much money again did you wish to withdraw?"

as for what Esplumeor means:

"To be perfectly honest, I don't know," [Merlin] said. "But it sounds rather classy, doesn't it?"

********End Spoilers for TGS season 2********

Graymonk - [mmckinnongra@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:24:53 PM
IP: 137.149.84.20

KAIOTO - You wrote: [Um ... window dressing? That's pretty much all they've been thus far.]

But if all they are is window dressing then shouldn't they keep quiet while the boss does all the talking? Window dressing should be in the form of yes men constantly complimenting everything the boss is saying - this bunch are actually plotting right in front of Lancelot without much regard for the fact that he's even there.

GRAYMONK - You wrote: [Duval seems to have a hard enough time keeping these guys in check]

If Duval is having a difficult time dealing with whats basically a bunch of braindead thugs then I can't even begin to figure how he's managed to retain leadership of the Society althogether.

It might make for an interesting story though - this is Lancelot's version of the Round Table; maybe this is a good way to illustrate why he wouldn't have made a good leader and contrast it with the group that Arthur has managed to surround himself with. Otherwise I have to question the brains of a man who is trying to secretly run the world surrounding himself with people who lack imagination and are likely to constantly be trying to overthrow him. It can only work as I see it in a contrast between Arthur and Lancelot's leadership and development styles.

You wrote: [It was established in Season Two ("Beginning Again" I believe) that Merlin has a fairly large bank account that he can access by presenting the teller a specific ring and saying the code word "Empsulor" (or something like that).]

I don't have time right now to go back and read the story - are you serious? It sounds like something out of Harry Potter.

ANDREA - You wrote: [Am I the only one not into Pendragon?]

I'm honestly not really that interested in King Arthur; the cast TGS created to surround him is much more interesting and I'd much prefer to read about them than him. My favorite PENDRAGON stories tend to be ones where he and Merlin don't show up or exit the stage early on. I never really saw Arthur as that much of a heroic character to begin with and the attempts to mention his history but deemphasis his medieval roots at the same time to make him into a funny speaking hero with 20th century ethics just stand out to me.

It is a credit to the storywriting abilities of the staff that I can sit down and not feel reading the stories are a chore, that they tend to be an enjoyable read.

You wrote: [I just don't really like the Gargoyles Universe Authur too much]

I think that the problem was (and to a certain extent is) that the series has mentioned extensively and focused on his medieval history; a lot of that comes in from S1 and taken altogether it just draws my attention to the fact that Arthur isn't really a hero. He was a King with many interesting ideas for his time but society caught up with those ideas and even passed him by a long time ago.

Every time I sit down to read a PENDRAGON story, I take into account the fact that while he has lived for a while and slightly adapted to the modern world, that he is still a Medieval King walking around and that no matter how hard he tries (when he even bother to try), that isn't going to change. He's not like Macbeth who has lived in the world and developed with it - in a way he's been picked up from one time and dropped into another. Thats why I saw for example what was intended to be concern about Mary going on the GrailHunt as reluctance. Is a medieval King going to be that happy to take a 15 year old girl along with him when he's looking for the Grail? Would he have allowed it when he was on the throne back in Camelot?

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [Easier said then done.]

True. The hard part is actually getting her hands on Thailog more than anything else; after that all she needs is one bullet. (After all TGS went with him staying badly damaged from the fire rather than having Stone Sleep cure him so once she's able to get to him, actually killing him shouldn't be that difficult. Its just a really pain in the ass getting to him.)

You wrote: [But Thailog is smart enough to stay three steps ahead of her. Plus, he's got a lot of tough people covering him.]

The problem here is that no matter how smart and ahead and Xanatosian Thailog is, Demona isn't exactly a pushover - she's not Goliath. :-) I think that part of overestimating Thailog is underestimating Demona. She shouldn't have an easy time getting to him but being as powerless and helpless as TGS is trying to portray her doesn't feel right. Thailog isn't the first setback she's had in her life and I can't imagine that she wouldn't have backup on top of backup plans in reserve somewhere. We're not talking about someone who exactly oozes trust for other living beings after all.

You wrote: [Also remember, right now Thailog has absolute control over 99% of Demona's resources.]

I find it hard to believe that she incorporated her entire fortune and didn't keep some large part in reserve. Yes she was fooling herself when she first met Thailog but she is still a largely suspicious person; she must have kept a reserve somewhere. Not to mention that fact that as she is a person who built herself up from poverty to riches (and aquired rich tastes); I can't help but feel that she would be careful to cover herself in case something happened to a large part of her fortune for some reason. The state she's in now seems to be a semi-penniless exile and that shouldn't be; she's not Xanatos but she has enough experience to have backup plans - not to mention that she has advantages Thailog doesn't. For example she is awake in daytime and all she needs is for him to not show up at some court proceedings that she can launch against him to throw things her way.

You wrote: [All she has is her immortality, which means if she screws up, he can torture her for a very, very long time.]

True; but she's as easy to catch as Thailog is. While capture and torture could be a concern, I can't imagine that its so high up her list that it would keep her from trying to get even. (Besides she's not the most logical person when she's angry - if she had the chance to try and kill Thailog then I imagine that she'd take it and the chance of being tortured for a hundred years wouldn't really stop her.)

You wrote: [That and he can threaten the few people she does care about.]

There's only Angela and Andrea. Angela has a Clan of Gargoyles and Xanatos to keep her safe. So threatening her isn't exactly a realistic threat. Its like Demona being a threat to Elisa in the first two seasons of the show - she knows where Elisa is and can kill her anytime but doesn't since it'd cause too much trouble and is easier for her to leave her alive to keep the threat going as a possibility. Same principle here.

Andrea is a more realistic person to threaten but since the series does want to imply that Demona will lapse back into evil (or was just fooling herself with the 3-day 3-step I'm good now! personality that she adopted in early TGS) then sacrificing her could be possible. Especially if it came down to herself or Angela vs Andrea. If its herself or her daughter as compared with her pet then its not a hard choice to make.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:45:09 AM
IP: 12.88.196.41

Hello, this is Attila and for some reason I'm in Hell, again. That will teach me not to watch Ann Coulter take a shower...nah, I'll do that again after I get out :D

Meanwhile, Sadaam Hussein's sons are here right now, and any woman they hit on morphs into Janet Reno.

Lain> GB has been working on his travel plans and he may see you two days earlier than planned. He also shot an e-mail to your hotmail account.

As for eating moving boxes, that is a South Park reference, which may prompt me to say something perverted ;)

Kaioto> Demona is actually in her 30s.
ghost of Reverend Attila
Hell
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:42:04 AM
IP: 140.156.6.2

Regarding Thailog >>

You know, Demona - is - immortal. Thailog is not. As much as she tried to sell Merlin the "programmed clone" idea, I'm going to go with the wizard on this one. It takes more than a brainwave scan and a cloning vat to actually transfer a - person - from one body to another.

Considering that David Xanathos never manages to achieve immortality, I think it is safe to assume Thailog won't either. That said, Demona - does - simply have the option of letting Thailog grow old and die if she truly isn't in a big rush. In the big scheme of things, a century would be a drop in the bucket for Demona, but Thailog would be either dead or feeble at that point. Even at the doubled life-expectancy of gargoyles and no Clone breakdown, Thailog would be equivalent to a 75-80 year old human at that point, while Demona is ever trapped in her early 20's.

It really seems to me that Demona just wants prompt gratification. A could of years to wait for Merlin to grow up isn't that big of an idea, but waiting 100 years to get back at Thailog ... that just doesn't sit well with her. She wants payback as soon as possible. That's just the kind of person she is.

It isn't the most rational course of action, but it is the one that promises the most gratification. We've already established that Demona isn't the most rational of persons when it comes to conflict.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:20:37 AM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Sorry for the double post, but need to throw one more thing in.

Also remember, right now Thailog has absolute control over 99% of Demona's resources. All she has is her immortality, which means if she screws up, he can torture her for a very, very long time. That and he can threaten the few people she does care about.

Knocking Thailog out is going not going to be easy.

Boy I can't wait till season four is ready to show all of you guys.
Greg Bishansky
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:57:29 AM
IP: 216.179.1.144

AIRWALKER> <<She should be able to easily kill Thailog herself.>>

Easier said then done. As much as I love Demona, I really, really have to disagree with you. If it was so easy, she'd have done it. But Thailog is smart enough to stay three steps ahead of her. Plus, he's got a lot of tough people covering him. The Ultra-Pack, Coldsteel. He now has control over the Valkyries, and who knows what other surprises he has? Well, I know, but you'll have to wait for "Gargoyles" season 4 to find out ;)
Greg Bishansky
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:49:08 AM
IP: 216.179.1.144

Main headline on CNN.com:
SONS DEAD
in a large font. That's it. Not Saddam's sons dead, just SONS DEAD.

Post whenever I finish everything, or the next time I work, which ever happens, happens.
Fire Storm
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:21:21 AM
IP: 66.72.178.104

Spacebabie> <<Somebody needs to take up the slack of posting strange Ebay stuff>>: Why limit it to Ebay?
<>: Mark my place, not my territory. I did that a long time ago.
<>: I want to see someone use three swords at once in live action.

Airwalker> <<But can he widthdraw from it in his deaged condition?>>: All you need is a number for the Swiss.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:10:59 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Todd- Oops! That was my bad spelling Arthur's name wrong...I know how it's spelled, but sometimes when I type fast, I don't pay attention to exactly what I'm typing, and I tend to mix up/repeat letters without realizing it (I'm not much of a spell checker either), especially if letters are near each other on the keyboard, and letters in a word are all near each other as well (R, T, H, and U are pretty darn close to one another, which is probably the origin of that mistake). I apologize for that. Now I feel really dumb...(and I apologize for the run on sentence as well. I'm not a big grammar freak online).

And yeah, I know Greg's episode of Kim Possible hasn't aired yet...but it will in the near future, season 2 started last friday. I can't wait to see this weeks...from the preview, Ron is trying to score a date or something with some chick out of his league...my guess is that it's Amelia (if you're not into Kim Possible...you can ignore that last sentence).
Andrea - [takarifreak@dark-stars.net]
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:07:58 AM
IP: 209.91.49.213

Actually, my little piece about Geoffrey was about, not his accuracy as a historian (I knew long ago that it wasn't all that great), but how he viewed his account of Arthur's birth. Did he see Uther as behaving like a tyrant in his pursuit of Igraine and war on Gorlois (as we do), or did he see it as acceptable behavior for a king? Did he feel any concern over the fact that he was having the hero of his story, Arthur, begotten through Uther's villainy, or did he just take an attitude of "that's life" about it? (Given that he doesn't condemn Uther for lusting after Igraine but does condemn Vortigern for his interest in Rowena earlier on, I find myself half-wondering whether it could be the latter. Of course, Rowena was a Saxon and a pagan and Vortigern's interest in her led to Hengist and Horsa getting a foothold in Britain, so Geoffrey probably viewed it as worse than Uther's passion which would produce Arthur, who would undo - for a time - the damage that Vortigern had done.)

As for Anna - I think that she's a rough equivalent of Morgause in the sense that both are portrayed as married to Lot and are the mothers of Gawain and Mordred. However, the story obviously got changed somewhere between Geoffrey and Malory, for in Malory, Lot's wife is named Morgause and she's the daughter of Gorlois and Igraine. It's been speculated by some scholars that "Morgause" was a variant of "Morgan" that got applied to Morgan's sister through a mix-up, but we don't know for certain.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:48:05 PM
IP: 171.75.194.231

typo...

should have been "Demona's characterization wasn't in question."

carry on.
>^,,^<
mc
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:41:02 PM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Bud Clare - "Now, you can try to claim that every single stupid thing she ever did was just the writer's fault, but then she'd no longer be "human", as everyone is stupid sooner or later. "

Actually, I don't have to "try to claim" anything, because it's a bald fact every stupid, smart, silly, serious etc thing Demona has ever done and will ever do IS the result of a writer's fancy. Demona *isn't* human. She's a Fictional Character. Much as anyone would like to revile her for making bad choices, the ultimate truth is that there was never a choice for her to make. Unlike a "real" person, a fictional character only has an illusion of free will, not the reality of such.

As for everyone is stupid sooner or later... yeah, if you actually are a real person and have free will, the probability is that you'll do something stupid sooner or later. So? The inevitability of stupidity of *all* real people, good, bad or indifferent, proves what about the points being debated?

"The real argument doesn't seem to be about revenge so much as it is about whether or not Demona was behaving in character when she screwed up. Problem is, you're not being half as objective as you'd like to think"

Problem is, I showed the example of Demona's actions in Hunter's Moon did not prove "revenge = stupidity" because as you yourself noted, that particular example didn't really have anything to do with the given theory. I never said one way or the other whether the action was in character. Demona's characterization was in question. I think it simply tweaks someone that I don't fall for arguments based on glittering generalities and card stacking instead of plain facts that actually pertain to the actual topics under question.

Todd - Geoffrey of Monmouth was the 12th century's version of a pop historian.

http://www.britannia.com/history/geofmon.html

"Geoffrey occasionally flirted with real history, but he seemed to prefer to make it up as he went along."

I wouldn't hold Geoffrey as a credible source, as Arthur was pretty much his Mary Sue. The man even called himself Arthur, which is a pretty hard nickname to get from "Geoffrey".

His accounts of Arther are not first person, and the works he claims as his sources for the portions of history on Arthur are conveniently not available for veracity of his claims. He was without a doubt, a popular writer whose stories remain engaging today. But was he a historian, or merely a writer playing to his audience, the British, to which he gave a glorious British story full of the perceived heroics of their ancient British Kings? All to often, in pop history, facts are actually not as important to the audience as spinning a good tale.

As an aside... The point of Athurian legend that always held my curiousity was Anna, Arthur's full sister out of Uther and Igraine... and used interchangeably as a wife to King Lot as Morguese was. So was Lot married to two of Arther's sister, one full and one half? At different times? Or were the two women the same woman, and if so why the discrepency of parentage and name? Since Morguese is usually attributed to being the mother of Modred, Arthur's incestuously born son, maybe it just was more palateable for some people to think of Arthur having incestuous relations with a half sister instead of his full blooded sister.

laters
Mooncat

Mooncat
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:38:53 PM
IP: 68.102.0.23

ANDREA - As I recall, Greg Weisman said that the episode of "Kim Possible" that he worked on was one that hasn't aired yet.

(And it's "Arthur", not "Authur".)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:10:38 PM
IP: 171.75.194.231

Sigh..too much talk about TGS! But don't let that stop you. I just came to state my opinion.

Am I the only one not into Pendragon? I've read the first 2 of the recently released season 4, but I can't get into it(I don't know if I've read the first 3 seasons, I might have a long time ago from when I first sarted comming here). I just don't really like the Gargoyles Universe Authur too much...and I used to be obsessed with that kind of stuff. Don't know why...it's just one of those unexplainable things. Or it could be that Greg brainwahsed my fragile little mind by created Gargoyles in the first place and is directly resonsible for creating my obsession with the Dark Ages (yeah, thanks Greg...), and overwitin my then obsession over the Authurian era (I always thought Lancelot was better anyway).

Or this all could be to my obsession with the movie "Monty Python & the Holy Grail", which I have practically memorized (and have watched with every set of subtitles the DVD comes with), and because of it, I can't see Aurthur in a serious light anymore...*squelches back scores of lines from that movie, specifically ones involving frenchmen, swallows, and killer rabbits*

In other news...anyone know which episode of Kim Possible (yup, sill into it) Greg worked on? I think I knew at one point, but I forgot. I think I need to write the fanfiction rolling around in my head, which crosses, you guessed it, Kim Possible and Gargoyles. I won't say much, but it involves a an rather odd meeting of Goliath and a certain Dr. Drakken, and Rufus nearly becomming Kitty Chow no thanks to Cagney...

I think I'd better shut up now...before you all see how REALLY warped I am...
Andrea - [takarifreak@dark-stars.net]
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 09:53:41 PM
IP: 209.91.49.213

I know that Bishansky doesn't want me apologizing for things in TGS, but I still thought that I should say a few things.

1. Again, I think that the problem here is that the production team had forgotten that we never gave formal knighting services for Leba or Rory at the time that we gave Mary a formal ceremony where she becomes Arthur's squire, and didn't realize how it could be interpreted by members of the audience, such as Airwalker, who hadn't forgotten. Likewise, Dulcinea's remark about Mary was not intended as being snobbish when I wrote it - I'm sorry if it came out that way. It was intended really more to call attention to Mary's shift from somebody who was only accompanying Arthur and his knights out of necessity (in Season Three) to somebody who was now whole-heartedly working for the same goal as they.

(Actually, a lot of the nits that you point out are ones that seem to have completely escaped the entire production team until after you pointed them out - which does make me wonder whether the Pendragon Breakdowns team is a little too close to the product and we need a few members who have a more semi-detached outlook and who can therefore point out things like "Mary's being made a squire is being handled in such a way that makes it seem as if Arthur's insulting her" or "The Illuminati come across too much like the Mafia in this scene" or "Arthur and his knights don't have a strong team structure or a real goal".)

2. All right, I'll admit that I was a bit harsh on Gorlois's choice of tactics in resisting Uther's lustful intentions towards Igraine; he really didn't have that many options. On the other hand, I will admit that Geoffrey of Monmouth's own account of his sortie against Uther's army - and Geoffrey of Monmouth was the one who originated the story - did portray Gorlois's behavior in it as foolish:

"The Duke [Gorlois], equally ill-advisedly, sallied forth with his men, imagining apparently that he could resist such a host of men with his own tiny band."

[Geoffrey of Monmouth, Penguin translation by Lewis Thorpe, p. 207.]

Geoffrey, incidentally, includes no condemnation of Uther's behavior in his story - I don't know whether that meant that Geoffrey of Monmouth's moral standards were lax or whether he simply didn't feel comfortable explicitly disapproving of the way that Arthur was begotten since Arthur was the hero of his work. (Malory doesn't condemn Uther for it either - admittedly, if the court records of the 15th century are correct, Malory was guilty of a lot of crimes such as armed robbery and rape, which might explain that.)

3. The noticeboard at Glastonbury Abbey about "Arthur's grave" that Arthur, Merlin, and Leba visit is a real one - the text on it was taken, in fact, word for word from the real sign. (I visited Glastonbury ten years ago during a tour of Arthurian sites in England.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 07:37:39 PM
IP: 171.75.195.31

********Spoilers For /CHOICES PART 1********

Well, I might as well start with my big problem with this episode, the cliffhanger. It was a sensible spot to end it as Duval's offer of an alliance will probably dominate the entirety of the the next episode. My problem is that I already knew he was going to do that because I saw Duval propose it in the meeting at the beginning. I can't help but feel that because what Duval was planning had been revealed at the start of the story a lot of tension and suspense was lost. Without knowing why Duval wanted to meet at the Tor personally the reader could have been placed in the same position as Arthur Leba and Merlin, wondering why? what is Duval up to? Is this a trap? I am not saying the enitre scene at Illuminati headquarters was a bd idea, only that it seemed to go on too long for the story's own good. If it had ended when the Illuminati were discussing abduction or assassination it could have set the reader up with expectations of a trap at the climax, only to be hit by a complete surprise. As I said, the cliffhanger scene itself is fine and still somewhat effective but trimming the beginning scene a little could have made it great. Instead of being blown away I was simply lefdt with a feeling akin to "OK, they got that out of the way, now part 2 can start."

That being said, I was quite pleased with this episode, and the opening scene was one of the highlights. It really made the Illuminati seem interesting. Instead of listening to low level members like Feldmen and Ratcliffe talk about how bad they wanted to join the inner circle(which was interesting in Seaon 0ne but had gotten old by Season 3) I finally got to see the inner circle. The opening scene definetly felt similar to a Round Table meeting from the romances at first, with powerful men coming together at a table (even if it wasn't a round table)before a "King" of sorts to take up a quest for the Holy Grail. But then the immediate turn to discussing abdcutions and assassinations quickly painted this as a "round"table that had fallen into corruption. I was elated at this, I always felt that the Illuminati could be used as a dark mirror of Arthur and his knights the same way Mr. Weisman described Xanatos as being a dark mirror for Goliath. I was also glad to see Todd build on the tension between Duval and the inner circle established in "Iris, Lily, Rose" with Duval having to restrain the darker impulses of the IC. I have to wonder how he is going to keep them in check if Arthur refuses his offer and seriously interferes in their own quest. Lastly, I was pleased to see that even in a scene that short Todd managed to develop the personalities of a few characters beyound Duval. Powell advocating a quest for the grail, while plotting a kidnapping was quite consistent with the idea of a man in love the ideal of chivalric knights but lacking the virue necessary to live by that ideal as established in "The Watching Eye". Singelton on the other hand was a surpirse, his loyalty to Duval really made him stand out, which seems to be something of an accomplishment because I don't recall seeing this character before, even though he apparently had dealings with Bluestone.

As for the Demona meeting, I didn't find it that out of place. It fit with the theme of "the ends justify the means" vs. "The means will dictate the ends". However, I do have trouble believing Merlin would tell Demona he's dying. I can buy that he would let slip that he doesn't have much time left, he does have a tendancey to go off on tanjents, but to just come out and tell Demona he's dying seems out of character for someone so secretive. Once Demona heard him say "Especially since I don�t even know if I�m going to be around a few years from now" she could have deduced he was dying, so Merlins' admission seemed unncessary.

Minor Points:

-Dulcinea mentions "I never expected to see [Mary] gain any official position in our ranks. I always assumed that she�d forever be the outsider among us." First she calls Corbie a "guttersnipe" and looks down on Leba's friends in Season Two and now she says she didn't think Mary would ever truly be part of the group. Is it just me, or is Dulcy becoming a bit of a snob? (that's a good thing by the way, makes her more interseting).

-I was somewhat disappointed to see the "Arthur exposed as King Arthur" storyline so quickly dismissed. While it is certainly understandable that the media would grow bored with the story after weeks with no new information, I hope this thread pops up again later on in the season.

-This may seem silly but what were Arthur and Co. going to do at Glastonbury to search for the Grail, were they going to dig underneath the ruins of the abbey or something? Some of the dialogue implies that they were going to search in book shops for text books about the grail, but that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. "Choices Part 1" establishes that lots of Arthur's knghts went on a quest for the grail, therefore shouldn't Arthur remember something from the stories the surviving knights told him? If he can remember something from a primary source why does he need secondary sources (for that matter how many relaible sources of information about a 1500 year old relic that most people consider a myth does he expect to find in small town book shops that he couldn't find at someplace like Amazon.zom or Legends?)

On the whole a fairly good set up for the grail quest, 6 Cups of Christ out of 10.

AIRWALKER - You wrote: <<These are members who are higher up the ladder than Xanatos? How?>> Duval seems to have a hard enough time keeping these guys in check, Maybe he's purposefully keeping Xanatos off the IC so he won't have deal with a truly skilled manipulator.

-Kaioto wrote: <<He's [Merlin] probably got some ridiculously valuable bank account kept quiet in Switzerland. ;-)>>

You responded <<But can he widthdraw from it in his deaged condition?>>

It was established in Season Two ("Beginning Again" I believe) that Merlin has a fairly large bank account that he can access by presenting the teller a specific ring and saying the code word "Empsulor" (or something like that).

********END SPOILERS FOR CHOICES PART 1***********

Graymonk - [mmckinnongra@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 07:07:53 PM
IP: 137.149.84.20

Airwalker >>

<< I didn't think that it was a bad portrayal as much as it rushed into the "we're evil dude" bit faster and a bit more casually than I would have thought they would ... I could have thought that the Illuminati would be a bit more open minded and flexible in terms of strategy without Duval having to get involved. Not to mention a little bit more cultured. >>

[KAI] Honestly, they seem a bit lazy to me - much like a lot of upper-management types I see in the modern world today, both in the public and private sector. I wonder why Duval even bothers to keep this batch around. He'd do much better to have men like Mr. X and others on his main board.

They definitely did come across as being too low-brow - though I wonder if that was just the "bad-guy" paint being applied a little too thick while trying to get a point across. On the one hand, it kind of explains that these guys are rotten in first-grader terms. On the other hand, it also might be trying to express just how madly covetous the notion of the Holy Grail makes some people.

Still, the Illuminati council seems to have no real depth in that scene and could have been picked at random from a collection of "Stock Villains in Suits."

<< I'm not looking for social programmer tendencies to be expressed; just a little more pragmatism and a little less raw villainy. >>

[KAI] Pragmatism? At an upper-level Boardroom Meeting? You know what they say about bureaucracies and committees, don't you? ;-) ;-)

<< It should be sort of like Original ROBOCOP OCP board - evil, casual, imaginative, covert and at least pretending to hide behind some ideals for the sake of image in front of the CEO (Lancelot). >>

[KAI] Agreed.

<< If the boss has to do all the thinking for them then what the hell does he need that inner council for? >>

[KAI] Um ... window dressing? That's pretty much all they've been thus far. If Duval were a more over-the-top villain I'd half-suspect he keeps them around just to be able to feed them to sharks or condemn them to other grizzly fates when a plan goes wrong. After all, who doesn't love that scene in Empire Strikes Back where the admiral on the viewing screen drops dead and Darth Vader concludes, "Apology accepted." :D

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 05:54:23 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

**TGS COMMENTS**

KAIOTO - You wrote: [Honestly, I think the depiction of the Illuminati weren't that bad. It is good to have them be somewhat disillusioning.]

I didn't think that it was a bad portrayal as much as it rushed into the "we're evil dude" bit faster and a bit more casually than I would have thought they would. After all if they are just thugs in business suits then what makes them that different than a local crime syndicate? I could have thought that the Illuminati would be a bit more open minded and flexible in terms of strategy without Duval having to get involved. Not to mention a little bit more cultured.

You wrote: [Look at Lancelot's reaction to them - and later the excuses he has to make and how he has to mention that he's not proud of some of the things the Society has done.]

His making excuses for them is to me more about covering himself and making excuses for himself than anything else. After all what does it say about him if this is the company that he keeps?

You wrote: [I would get the impression that the Illuminati Society is not the ambitious bunch of social programmers it once was.]

I'm not looking for social programmer tendencies to be expressed; just a little more pragmatism and a little less raw villainy. After all if Arthur is looking for the Grail, why start out with the idea that he has to be stopped or slowed down? Why not suggest as Lancelot eventually does, that they use him? Why not let Arthur do the dirty work? In fact why even let him know that you want the Grail as well? Why not keep him in the dark and help him from there as well? Why start out with no information whatsoever on the ideas of killing or kidnapping? How in the world does Lancelot manage to maintain control of the world if all he has done is surround himself with incompetants, completely lacking in basic imagination? These are members who are higher up the ladder than Xanatos? How?

You wrote: [At the core, the Illuminati seems in danger of becoming an old boys network of men who enjoy power and conspiracy too much - operating just for the sake of keeping itself in power.]

I don't mind that implication. But the thing is that they are trying to present the head of the society almost as a corporate setting. It should be sort of like Original ROBOCOP OCP board - evil, casual, imaginative, covert and at least pretending to hide behind some ideals for the sake of image in front of the CEO (Lancelot). Here they head into casual 1960ish villain dialogue. Its like a darker version of the Superfriends version of the Injustice League.

You wrote: [Don't they eventually sell out the human race to the Space Spawn in 2198 anyway? Downward spiral has already started.]

Again I don't mind them as neutral evil heading into full out evil-evil. But they are sitting in front of the boss; it can't be an evil free for all - there has to be some constructive suggestions before they move into evil. If the boss has to do all the thinking for them then what the hell does he need that inner council for?

You wrote: [As for the notion that Arthur is no saint - just wait for the holy hermit to crop back up! :)]

I am, believe me I am. :-)

You wrote: [On the note of money, I think it isn't that big of a deal to sweep it under the rug. Merlin most likely has accumulated substantial assets over the years discretely.]

It is possible to sweep it under the rug but it is a legitimate thing to bring up; is Arthur doing all his questing off of Merlin's fortune? Does Merlin even have access to his money? (In Season One he needed some construct to act as a Guardian for him; and while Arthur technically has legal custody as Arthur Pennington, isn't he underground in England for the next couple of years until the whole scandal around him dies down?) And if they do they why are they constantly straining the resources of the London Clan? The Shop isn't a clubhouse, its a business; but they hang out there all the time and don't seem to actually have any place of their own. If they have a source of money then why not get an out of the way cottage somewhere to hang out at instead of potentially drawing large amounts of attention to the Gargoyle Shop?

You wrote: [He's probably got some ridiculously valuable bank account kept quiet in Switzerland. ;-)]

But can he widthdraw from it in his deaged condition?

You wrote: [It makes sense that Demona might seek an ally like Merlin. Why not ally with Merlin?]

I could see her considering to try to find Merlin to make an allience with him; his reputation and actual past history does make it possible that she could figure it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to want to join her for at least some limited partnership. (If he'd ally with Uther then why would he bother to draw the line with Demona?)

But why is taking out Thailog the kind of thing she'd look for him for? She should be able to easily kill Thailog herself. My thing here is that she just suddenly pops up like Merlin was that easy to find, without any buildup whatsoever and that the plotline she is asking him to help her out on is something that is clashing with the tone that this storyline is trying to develop. Not to mention that the things she said to him about the Grail are really something that should have been brought up by a PENDRAGON based character anyway. Why have the entire Lancelot flashback unless he's going to go into why the Grail might be unachievable for both Arthur and Merlin? (It might still happen in the next episode since this is just part one. But then its really just a repeat of stuff Demona has already brought up. This episode was driving for a Lancelot/Merlin/Arthur confrontation-discussion and Demona showing up seems to distract from that.)

**END OF CURRENT TGS COMMENTS**
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 05:16:40 PM
IP: 12.88.201.254

Sigh
The AC had it�s tune up today and found something that saddened me. A poor corn snake slithered inside and died. Sigh.

Lots of critters in my pool area�the spa is now a frog pond, because it�s full of tadpoles.

Small plug:

Return of the Hunt

The joy of Broadway making a new human friend is cut short when The Pack attacks him and his patrol group. R rating for violence.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/Spacebabie/Gargoyles/Zone/Fics/Hunt.html
End Small Plug

************TGS Spoilers*************************
I have this strange feeling that Duval wanted to tell the other elder members of the society that immorality is not all that is cracked up to be.

I loved the flashback of Lancelot�s past.

The Scene with Demona was a bit jarring. I did feel though that Demona was in character with her dialogue.

I also loved Lain�s artwork for this story. Her picture of Mary and Merlin was cute.
******************Spoilers end***********

And now it is time for the replies.

Gside<<>>Well that�but today I had Denny�s pancakes�YUMM! <<<Sadly, too much sex in here for his violence.>>>Somebody needs to take up the slack of posting strange Ebay stuff <<<Right, I'm just marking my place>>>I thought you were house broken.

Dezi<<<Wanna see pirate movie, wanna see pirate movie, wanna see pirate movie.>>>Me too. I wanna see Bloom as a swashbuckler since he made a verra sessy elf.

Firstorm<<<This is true>>>So before you complain about bordom indulge.<<<Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me>>>Poor Fang . There is one thing that I miss about you FS�.I miss your frells

Revel<<<which is fine, more time to chat with Spacie.>>>We do more than chatting :::Kiss:::<<>>I doubt it, I loved sharing a room with you :::Smooch:::

Phirecat<<<Gabe wants to be in your clan, was wonding if you had the time to do up a pic of him as a garg? Green's his fav color>>>Wich Gabe are we talking aboot? Is it the same one that posts here?

Silverbolt<<<3 weeks on holiday in florida can make you very tired! >>>Welcome back.

Todd<<<Sorry about that>>> Ha ha ha

Kaito<<<There is also the possibility that Morgana is just a fruit-cake.>>>I have to quote Giles on this. �You managed to boil a complex thought down to its simplest form.� Her unsuitable quest for vengeance had taken her toll on her mental health, but I wouldn�t say that being crazy is an equivalent. Trying to avenge her father�s death made her more than ever determined and she didn�t think things through�plus she may actually be falling in love with Ma�s father. �Love makes you do the wacky��hmmm I used two Buffy quotes there.

Bud-Claire<<<Whatever happened to "Love makes you do the wacky"?>>>I just noticed you typed this too�LOL

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 05:04:20 PM
IP: 4.72.104.91

GB: Thanks, but I'm cool. Appreciate the thought, though.
Josh
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 04:39:27 PM
IP: 17.255.48.121

You know, I've been up all night... and my spelling is actually better now than it was about ten hours ago. This wouldn't be too odd, except I think that I was more _awake_ then than I am now. I'd be confused if I were alert enough to think about it. *yawns*
*******************************
Mooncat> <<But he didn't use examples of "real life" to prove a point>>
Probably because he didn't see the point. I don't blame him.

<<My argument is that revenge is not the 'cause' of stupidity>>
Personally, I'd say that it's the effect of stupidity, but maybe that's just me.

<<Revenge as a motivating force can inspire a person to acts of stupidity or intelligence depending on the person's **inherent abilities**.>>
Wow... what an interesting world you must live in. Revenge must not be so bad after all, if it compels stupid people to act stupidly and intelligent people to act intelligently, and never the twain shall meet. It'd sure make cleaning out the gene pool a lot easier if everyone would just hurry up and pick a side.

<<Sure, the same way any strong emotion including LOVE can. But it doesn't alter your basic mental capacities.>>
*snorts* As if anyone uses their full mental capacity anyway. There are a great many people who have the capacity to be intelligent, yet choose not to be. Not incidentally, I'd consider Demona to be among those people, even though I can sympathize with her reasons for being the way that she is. But no, I wouldn't consider revenge to be at the root of her "stupidity"... that honor goes to her fear. She stopped thinking rationally about a lot of things a long time ago (in a galaxy right about here, but a little to the left).

<<An intelligent person in the throes of revenge or love is still an intelligent person.>>
Whatever happened to "Love makes you do the wacky"? Even the most intelligent person does stupid things EVERY SINGLE DAY. Strong emotions generally make things worse. Sure, occasionally you might find a person who behaves more intelligently as a result, like revenge giving a person a single-mindedness that sharpens his intelligence like a blade-- but such people are the exception, not the rule. And Demona has been living with revenge far too long for it to be sharpening her wits any longer. Furthermore, she never would have gotten into such a situation (clans slaughtered, etc) in the first place if her intelligence didn't regularly take vacations without her. Now, you can try to claim that every single stupid thing she ever did was just the writer's fault, but then she'd no longer be "human", as everyone is stupid sooner or later.

The real argument doesn't seem to be about revenge so much as it is about whether or not Demona was behaving in character when she screwed up. Problem is, you're not being half as objective as you'd like to think.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 02:46:01 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

** Spoilers, just in case **

I enjoyed the newest episode of Pendragon. I found the part with Demona a little bit unsettled, but other than that it was a great read.

Taleweaver >>

"When I played soccer, almost everyone got a shot at team captain, but what mattered was how well we related to each other. If I knew who to pass and when."

[KAI] Well, Arthur isn't so much the Team Captain as the Player-Manager. He's the one who recruited the roster and he's supposed to be the one calling the shots when it comes to general strategy. That's been Arthur's biggest problem - he's lacked a clear goal to lead the team towards.

"I agree with Kaito's assessment of her two personalities, but I think her unstable, revenge-driven side is the original, truer self and the mature, wants-to-get-on-with-her-life side is the latter one. "

[KAI] Darn it, man, the name has 4 syllables, not 3! ;-)

Seriously though, I'm not sure which I'd call "truer." The revenge-driven side is certainly more primal. There is a good quote to sum up Morgana's "Destroyer" personality.

"There's nothing more cruel and pure than a child." - Jet Black, Cowboy Bebop

That aspect of Morgana never really grew up. That's why her personality is so split. She grew up and matured and started to work towards more healthy desires - like the desire to create a family. The problem is that there is still the voice of a little girl in Morganas mind, retarded in her development by the trauma of losing her family.

The "Destroyer" personality of Morgana is a 1,500 year old child - angry, hurt, and nearly feral.

Morgana's big problem is that while the "Mother" persona is dominant almost all the time, the damage that her "inner-child" can produce with a temper-tantrum is enought to ruin her other ambitions. She can only live by compromising with her inner-demon. Even when the "Mother" is in charge, she feeds into the ambition of revenge to keep the feral impulses from errupting. That way, the two personalities get along more smoothly so that Morgana can live a "semi-normal" life. The only alternative (so long as Morgana can't reconcile to a single personality) is for Morgana to become a full-fledge, life-destroying Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde case.

"In the end, Morgana just doesn't want win. I don't think that is proof positive that there is a good person trying to get out, more like an unstable person repeating the same thing and expecting a different result. "

[MARTY] I think, honestly, there is at least a person with at least half a chance at being decent inside Morgana. She just needs to end the threat of (and her fear of) the "Destroyer" persona cropping up and making her life misery. She's her own worst enemy at this point, not Merlin or Arthur. They leave her alone - despite a lot of antagonism on her part.

Mooncat >> Revenge is an exercise in stupidity. Stupidity is not exclusively restricted to revenge.

The urge to get back at someone is not rational. It is primal. Many of our primal instincts are healthy, but feeding almost any of them unconditionally - IS - stupid in the long run. That's the danger of obsession. A person may very well remain cunning and subtle, but their efforts generally aren't going to benefit them in the big picture. "Successful" revenge is usually the business of the Pyrric Victory.

Airwalker >> Honestly, I think the depiction of the Illuminati weren't that bad. It is good to have them be somewhat disillusioning. Look at Lancelot's reaction to them - and later the excuses he has to make and how he has to mention that he's not proud of some of the things the Society has done. By such indications, I would get the impression that the Illuminati Society is not the ambitious bunch of social programmers it once was.

At the core, the Illuminati seems in danger of becoming an old boys network of men who enjoy power and conspiracy too much - operating just for the sake of keeping itself in power.

They believe that the Grail offers immortality. A bunch of candestine gentlemen obsessed with power just saw the oportunity to dodge the whole "you can't take it with you" clause of life. I expect such men to go into a frenzy of excitement and be willing to do the darkest of deeds to obtain such a prize.

It just illustrates to what depths the Illuminati have sunk. Don't they eventually sell out the human race to the Space Spawn in 2198 anyway? Downward spiral has already started.

As for the notion that Arthur is no saint - just wait for the holy hermit to crop back up! :)

On the note of money, I think it isn't that big of a deal to sweep it under the rug. Merlin most likely has accumulated substantial assets over the years discretely. Wizards are extremely capable of making money, and Merlin has had 1500 years to do so. He's probably got some ridiculously valuable bank account kept quiet in Switzerland. ;-)

RE: Demona and Merlin >> I think this situation did work out a little awkwardly. That's the problem with cross-character use when two series are being published at different times. This is the kind of stuff Comic Books use footnotes for. :)

This definitely ties in with Time Dancer and Gargoyles plots, and it makes sense that Demona might seek an ally like Merlin. Why not ally with Merlin? He seems useful, yet devoid of any rival ambitions. He's unlikely to betray and something of a sap - but he is powerful.

Or, at least, that's what Demona thinks when she sets out looking for him.

Her reaction to Merlin's youthened situation is well enough - she has a few years to kill. Her reaction to Merlin's poisoned situation was underdeveloped. Yes, I understand that suddenly she perceived herself as having an offer Merlin could not refuse. Still, you don't really get to watch the gears turning in Demona's head. The 24 hour time-limit is a strong-arm tactic that I think is more of a conceit reflecting Demona's nature as a bully than anything else. It is a bluff, however.

If Merlin came crawling back 3 months from now and Demona still had need of allies, it isn't like she'd rebuff him based on her earlier offer. She might make him squirm for a while, but ultimately Demona is an opportunist.

Yes, I think Vashkoda has a good point that Merlin took Mary's spill the beans a little too lightly - but everything in that scene seemed too rushed, IMO.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 02:25:56 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

**CURRENT TGS COMMENTS**

Now that the GrailHunt has been established as the main quest for Arthur and company this season, bringing in the Illuminati was the next logical step. It was good to see how excited the Society would get over news that the Grail exists but the way the members around Duval jumped at the news into kidnapping and assassination without first even having the idea of covert manipulation come up did seem like a leap. These are people who are running the world; and while they may be corrupt, this isn't the mafia. They are supposed to be clear and level headed but the direction that they headed into off the bat was almost a bit childish. Its not the thinking or behavior I'd expect from people who managed to secretly take over and control the world.

I loved the conversation that the Illuminati recorded between Mary and her father. It fit so well - imagine your 15 year old daughter calls up in the middle of the night and tells you that she's been made into a Squire of King Arthur and is going hunting for the Holy Grail. His reaction is perfect and her lack of reaction to his reaction (she doesn't get upset or even have the entire conversation get described as a distraction) speaks volumes about the situation going on between them.

The appearance of Demona; that seems too problematic. She pops out of nowhere with no buildup in previous episodes to suggest that she has been looking for him and asks for his help in a plot that sticks out very badly in this series and especially in this current storyline. Not to mention that the idea that she really needs Merlin (or any one elses help) is silly - she's been operating as a complete independent for centuries; if Thailog is causing her problems then the simple and direct route to solving them is just brutally killing Thailog and building a new identity and company for herself. Why start asking for help now?

And on top of it, the way she does it is so undiplomatic that its obvious to the audience that Merlin isn't going to bother to even go through the motions of considering to accept her proposal. Demona's material should have been covered more by Duval; the Lancelot flashback and the talk of allience when he is chairing the Society Boardmeeting feed into that direction and having Demona show up completely swerves everything somewhere else for no particular reason than to just have Demona show up and illustrate that this series is still linked to GARGOYLES overall in some way. (This is why it would have been better to have Brianna join the entire expedition with Griff; it would give a stronger Gargoyle presence to the series that would reduce the need for unnecessary cameoes such as this one.)

Also, Merlin is way too dismissive of Demona and her suggestions - he has no previous history with her and she only really has a reputation for evil with the Manhattan Clan; its not like the other Clans really know that she exists at all. He shouldn't be so hostile or as judgemental as he was being. For all he knows her reputation could be as exaggerated as his. On top of all that he doesn't seem to want to accept the possibility that perhaps something other than the Grail can help him. The only good thing in Demona's appearance is her pointing out to him the difficulty (or rather the near impossibility) of even getting to the Grail, not to mention actually using it. (Again that should have been something for Lancelot to introduce; that is what the Lancelot flashback was helping to establish and then it suddenly gets shifted to Demona to tell everyone, almost to justify her showing up at all.)

Finally on top of everything, having Demona set a time limit to her offer makes no sense. If this were medieval times then the fact that she was leaving would make renewed contact improbable and so make the possibility of him being able to find her and accept at a later date almost impossible. But this is the age of e-mail and the cell phone - it should be an open ended offer. Giving a time limit seems more to suggest that the story wants Demona to come out looking spiteful and get her out of the series as quickly as she had been introduced.

The reintroduction of the Merry Men is good although some of the dialogue does emphasis what we have been discussing here recently - everyone is talking about rank and such but only one or two of the cast have got it and the others haven't. Here would have been a good place to put in a retcon and have some of the other cast mention off screen granting of rank to themselves by Arthur. Otherwise it just continues to grate on me. (Although having Dulcinea bring it up makes the situation a little easier to swallow since it has been mentioned that she was given a title and so it would be more believable for her to bring it than Rory or Leba who haven't gotten titles.)

The dreams and suspicions Merlin got from his conversation with Demona were good although it should have been something that had come up earlier; it can't be that Demona and Lancelot would be the only ones to have such a thought occur to them. Even if they reach the Grail, there is no doubt that they don't have a chance in hell of actually getting their hands on it. (And if on the off chance Mary the relative innocent did get her hands on it, the odds are good that as a magical item the Grail would just play a big joke on all of them and cure her curse rather than do anything about Merlin.) Its good to see the idea finally occur to Merlin, although it would be nice to have a speaking cynic/skeptic in the group; having a distracted Merlin, a directionless Arthur, and several yes men groupies doesn't make for interesting conversation. I understand that they are all English so conversation shouldn't be that exciting :-) :-) but someone should be disagreeing and suggesting ideas that Arthur might not like to hear. Right now all they all do is follow Arthur around and make suggestions that he doesn't mind replying to. How about someone getting up and saying that the wife burning baby killer doesn't really have that realistic of a shot to actually get near the Grail, let alone handle it. And yes I realize that is a very harsh and not exactly completely accurate description but everyone is acting like Arthur is a saint and everything is going to turn out pretty nicely. It doesn't have to - there is a good chance of failure and nobody is willing to bring it up. They needed an outsider (Demona) who is clearly being portrayed as bad/evil/villainous in order to get that message into their heads. How about having one of the Knights do it?)

I did like the ending with Lancelot and his excuses, and then his offer of allience. It will be interesting to see how Arthur will react - will he do the Kingly thing and make an allience with the Illuminati that he could use until it didn't suit him anymore and he could break it? Or would he just refuse it outright and make his life much more complicated? After all its easy to be heroic when someone else is paying all the bills (where is he getting all his travelling and lodging money after all? Even in anime the cast takes little jobs here and there to make some cash but Arthur never seems to have a cash problem - are his Knights giving him all the money or is he also being supported completely by the already poor and barely getting by London Clan?) but what if he has no choice but to take an allience just in order to be able to follow through on the quest at all?

**END OF CURRENT TGS COMMENTS**

TODD - You wrote: [The first is that her motivation in fighting Arthur and Merlin is revenge. Revenge isn't exactly the best stimulator of intelligence; indeed, if anything, it often leads to very serious mistakes.]

True, mainly because revenge tends to be more emotional than rational. That tends to explain Demona's behavior; with Morgana I tend to agree more with Kaioto's assessment that she is deeply unstable.

You wrote: [Demona shouting out about how the Praying Gargoyle will protect the gargoyles from her plague in "Hunter's Moon", which promptly alerts Goliath to his importance so that he goes after it and smashes it]

To be honest Goliath's reaction in that situation isn't exactly one that Demona could expect him to take; he basically took gambled with the lives of his clan that she wouldn't release the virus. But him doing it wasn't exactly something she was calculating - a more reasonable idea is that he would try to take her down and get the bottle out of her hands before she could shatter it or that they would have Angela try to talk her down. Goliath did something truely unexpected. Her speech to him helped it along but to be honest that probably wouldn't have been the first reaction of any other Gargoyle.

You wrote: [a close study of the war between Uther and Gorlois leads to the conclusion that Gorlois was not very bright; he made two serious blunders during it that cost him the war and his life.]

We are looking at the situation he was in scientifically but I doubt that is how he would have seen it; his options were bad or worse. First either leave and give Uther the opportunity to attack him or stay and let his wife be raped. I doubt that anyone in that situation would stay where he is. Its easy to say that he could seek help and allies if he had stayed but thats a reckless gamble as much as leaving is. What if he fails in his quest and is accused of plotting against the King? Then he is powerless and far from home, easy to arrested, and have killed. And saying that he should have stayed shows complete disregard for his wife who is under threat just as much as he is. Saying that Gorlois blundered is just a way to give a slight pass to Uther.

Second problem is his sortie against Uther with an a numerically inferior force - fact here is that no matter how he was going to fight, he was always going to be outnumbered. It is Uther and his allies against Gorlois. Thats it. He was doomed to defeat from the very beginning of the fight. Every battle was suicidal. But he still fought for his wife. If he was going to be completely rational about it he could have just given his wife up to Uther without a fight because he could never really defeat the odds against him.

You wrote: [Could Morgana have inherited her father's poor judgement? It's not impossible.]

Is Morgana emotional? Yes. Does she excersize poor judgement? Hell yes. Are her overall goals wrong? Depends what her goal is; she tends to shift them from appearance to appearance. But was Gorlois a victim of poor judgement in his actions? No. Sometimes there are no good solutions and we have to work with what we have. Gorlois had a choice to give up or to fight a losing battle. He chose to fight. That isn't poor judgement. If we really want to blame someone for poor judgement then it has to be Uther and Merlin. Saying Gorlois was guilty for wanting to protect his wife is just a way to distract attention from the fact that Uther shouldn't have been trying to take her in the first place and that Merlin should have minded his own damn business or at the very least help out the injured party (Gorlois) rather than the aggressor (Uther).
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 12:51:36 PM
IP: 12.88.196.222

MOONCAT> <<And yeah, I am willing to look at a FICTIONAL situation candidly and see when an otherwise intelligent character does a singularly stupid thing, the one and only thing that will allow the "hero" of the story to "win" at the last moment -- and see it for the orchestration it is.>>

Well, everything is done in a story because the writers need it to be done. No one id denying that. But some people like to have indepth conversations about the motivations and flaws, and little moments like that within the context of the show. I mean, if everyone just says "well, this is what the writer needed to happen", then really, what would be the point of of discussing any work of fiction in real depth?
Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 11:21:00 AM
IP: 216.179.5.199

i woke up all sad and lonely this morning.. and there was a birthday card and letter from gunjack - and another one from his sister!!!! theyre so.. so.. CUTE!!!! i nearly died.. its got all these scraps of paper with memories on them, little scribblings, drawings, all sorts of stuff. ITS SO AWESOME!!! i know youre not reading this, val, but youre the BEST GUY EVER!!!!! :D :D :D

todd>> <<I'd like to give my thanks to lain for the artwork for "Choices Part One">> WOOHOO!!! thanks, todd. (todd, apparently, has realized that the best way to an artists heart is STRAAAAIGHT through their ego.. ill do anything for you now, todd!) :D

green baron>> <> we could always eat my moving boxes..

la la. this is a Happy Day (tm) now :D *waltzes off to work*

lain
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 11:07:08 AM
IP: 65.93.91.123

Bud Claire - But he didn't use examples of "real life" to prove a point, but an orchestrated fictional example to show "revenge = stupidity" as an excuse for why another fictional character would be stupid. Character A is acting for revenge, revenge is stupid, ergo Character A is stupid.

Heck, if the basis of revenge = stupidity can be "proven" by citing fictional situations... I submit "The Count of Monte Cristo" -- where revenge didn't make the character stupid, and in fact provided motivation to become cunning and educated to a ferocious degree.

My argument is that revenge is not the 'cause' of stupidity, any more than dispassion or being a pacifist will magically make you smarter. Revenge as a motivating force can inspire a person to acts of stupidity or intelligence depending on the person's **inherent abilities**.

Can revenge cloud or color your thinking? Sure, the same way any strong emotion including LOVE can. But it doesn't alter your basic mental capacities. An intelligent person in the throes of revenge or love is still an intelligent person.

And yeah, I am willing to look at a FICTIONAL situation candidly and see when an otherwise intelligent character does a singularly stupid thing, the one and only thing that will allow the "hero" of the story to "win" at the last moment -- and see it for the orchestration it is.

Fiction is maleable, and the outcome is subject to the goals of the writers. In the case of Disney cartoons, and most other North American children's animation, the goal is to show "good guys" winning against the "bad guys". It doesn't matter how intelligent the bad guy is, or how mediocre the good guy may be, the mere casting of one as the good guy and the other as the bad guy will define the ultimate outcome of the animation... the good guy will win. The rare exceptions (in North American cartoons) are in more "serial" cartoons, when a bad guy may seem to have an upper hand in a single episode, but ultimately the good guys conclusively triumph over the bad guy in a later episode. It's formula. And I'm not saying it's an unpleasant or unpopular formula... I'm just willing to recognize it for what it is.

Mooncat
mooncat
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:42:26 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Vashkoda<which brings up the question of 'just how *did* he survive this long?' (hopefully we'll get the answer in the next segment). >

Well he is the adopted son of the Lady of the Lake and his step sister is Nimue so most likely his immortality came from them.
Question
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:28:47 AM
IP: 204.235.237.65

VASHKODA - Well, the deviation about Duval from Greg's Masterplan stems from the fact that, before Greg first mentioned that Duval was the Fisher King (which both indicated how he had survived to the present day in the Masterplan and - in combination with his name - who he was), somebody on the TGS staff during Season One Breakdowns (I forget who now; it was that long ago) mentioned having heard that Greg Weisman had said that the Illuminati was founded by Lancelot. Of course, it's clear now that it had been an unconfirmed rumor, but at the time, we assumed that that meant that Duval was actually Lancelot and went with it. (From the point of view of hindsight, we ought to have investigated that rumor, of course, but, too late now....) And by the time that Greg mentioned that Duval was "the last Fisher King", it was too late to change things. (There was a similar case with Merlin's parentage; by the time that Greg mentioned that in his Masterplan, Merlin's father was Oberon, Madoc being Merlin's father had become so crucial to Merlin's characterization that it was too late for us to change it.)

Looking over it now, I will say that if Greg really had intended Lancelot to be the head of the Illuminati rather than Percival, the alias would have been "Mr. Dulac" rather than "Mr. Duval".

While I'm still here, I'd like to give my thanks to lain for the artwork for "Choices Part One", and especially regarding a little matter yesterday. When she turned in the picture yesterday morning, Mary's hair was shown in a ponytail. The problem with that was that in our bio for Mary, she was described as always wearing her hair loose and over her ears (they're slightly pointed as a result of her being a werewolf, and she doesn't want people to notice that). I mentioned this in my feedback, but since it was less than 24 hours before the episode was released, said that it would be best to leave the pic as it was and pretend that it was just a case of the wind blowing her hair back or something like that. When I logged on to the Internet yesterday evening, to my delighted astonishment, lain had revised the picture of Mary a little to its present form. I'd like to thank her for her generous act - which is all the more impressive considering how quickly she was able to do it. Good work, lain!
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 07:11:19 AM
IP: 171.75.230.146

Hello, I am sincerely enjoying your Pendragon saga, and am in the middle of season one thus far. I am most definitly going to recommmedn this site to friends of mine who are fans of the original Cartoon series.
Thank you for some of the best fanart and fics on the net...
Raining Winds
Raining Winds - [elvnsword@yahoo.com]
Niagara Falls, ny, USA
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 06:12:52 AM
IP: 24.52.114.202

Mooncat> <>
I find more fault with your logic than his. The fact that he used fictional situations to illustrate his opinion of revenge doesn't matter as long as there are real life examples of the same, which there are in abundance. On the other hand, dismissing his arguments by claiming that any and all unflattering behavior on the part of the characters is just a whim of the writer is just silly. If a character's stupid behavior is entirely the fault of the writer, who exactly do you blame real life stupidity on? Or have you just somehow failed to notice any real people behaving stupidly in the name of revenge?
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 04:35:01 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Imzadi> Well, they are books by an _Elder_ talk show host ;) Hoepfully that's enough of a hint. If you want, I can mail the two books to you.

Lain> I guess I shouldn't also tell you that one of my entitlements is based on the euro rate, so I have actually benefited from the euro kicking the dollar's ass.

I can help you with groceries, while I'm there.

Gside> The Army does cover many expenses, especially when in Kosovo, and I now have six ribbons on my Class A uniform, courtesy of my deployment :)

Sadly, some soldiers did not save up while down in Kosovo. Of coruse, some had families...suckers...and the spouse spent all the money, which will be bad when the pay is reduced the month after they return.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Hanau, Germany
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 04:25:07 AM
IP: 140.156.6.2

TGS *spoilers*> Ah, this is definitely a 'part' story. A lot of chatter and not much substance. My favorite bit is probably Duval's flashback. Very nice descriptions of the castle, and you could really sympathize with the man's reactions and motivations. And here again we deviate from Greg's master plan, in that it seems Duval was never actually able to get his hands on the grail, which brings up the question of 'just how *did* he survive this long?' (hopefully we'll get the answer in the next segment). The Illuminati reacted much as expected, though I was surprised that Singleton fellow was so cooperative (he'll either end up Duval's pet or his next rival, I'm betting). I must admit, I didn't like the part with Demona *at all*. They come to Glastonbury looking for the Grail, and suddenly Demona shows up and starts talking about Thailog and Nightstone??? It felt completely out of place, even if there was a later attempt to combine the two plots with Demona's ideas for healing Merlin. And Merlin seems far too pessimistic about the proposals. He's *dying*, for heaven's sake, yet he seems to have made up his mind that other options are out of the question. And despite this, he *still* won't tell Demona no, prefering to delay that inevitable moment when we see no sign of him seriously considering her offer (and for some reason, despite the fact that Demona just told him she'd be willing to wait *years* for his help, she suddenly decides to give him only 24 hours to choose, and no second chance). I also think that Mary was very careless in telling Demona that they were questing for the Grail (and Merlin didn't even react to it! What happened to keeping everything a secret?) Instead, they decide to keep *Demona* a secret from everyone else! Merlin justifies this by saying they had enough problems to worry about, but their problems all revolve around *him*! Why else would they be searching for the Grail? (let's forget Mary's case for the moment, because it seems everyone else has). And finally, I don't like Dulcinea saying, "I always assumed that she�d forever be the outsider among us" when referring to Mary. Maybe I haven't paid close enough attention to the last season, but does she have something against Mary? That seems like an awfully snooty thing to say. Even Mary seems to have picked up on the 'outsider vibe'--which I never realized had been an isuue--when she tells Leba, "So I suppose that that makes me a bit less of a stranger in the group now". Oy. Well enough ranting, I do like the story, in the sense that it sets up the stage for some interesting revelations in the next chapter (at least I hope so). Duval really is a fascinating character, and I hope he has a larger role to play this season.
Vashkoda
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 02:34:08 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Lain> <>: But the army provides room and board, taking off a few major drains on the paycheck.

Todd> <<Sorry about that, Greg>>: Apologizing for apologizing seems to need some sort of emoticon to accomany it.

Airwalker> <<:-) :-)>>: There we go.

Taleweaver> <>: It had been this lively a few months back, just not with TGS discussions.

Mooncat> <<they simply can't keep it in their pants>>: Except for the Scarlet Knight, but he had Lancelot keeping him from peril.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 01:30:27 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Todd - I have to say your assessment of "revenge = stupidity" is poor logic. Demona's mention of the Praying Gargoyle wasn't so much "revenge made her stupid" as the fact the writers needed a way for the Gargoyles to stop Demona at the last moment. It was a plot device, not a real example of whether revenge creates stupidity. Gargoyles was after all a Disney show, they couldn't show revenge driven Demona wiping out humanity, it would have upset a lot of parents.

As for poor judgement, when Gorlois fled Uther's court rather than have his wife raped by the king, who is to say his actions were wrong in the face of his situation? Sure he could have stayed, and if he'd thwarted his king's adulterous desire for Igraine in the place where Uther is pretty much all powerful, he more likely have ended up dead or imprisoned and his wife raped by Uther without Uther even having to break a sweat. At the very least Gorlois made Uther work at achieving his adulterous desire to rape his vassel's wife, instead of handing her to him on a silver platter.

The idea that Gorlois could talk Uther's counselors into getting Uther to stop pursuing Igraine is very far fetched. If Uther was thinking with a brain instead of his privates, he wouldn't have gone after Igraine in the first place. Plus, Merlin wanted the child of Igrain by Uther, and as Uther's counselor, would probably have helped his king rape his vassel's wife with the disguise spell in the comfort of the king's own court, rather than talk Uther out of it.

Kings pretty much could bed who they wanted when they wanted. Gorlois fleeing with his wife may have given Uther an excuse for war, but I don't think the man realistically had much of a choice if he wanted any chance of keeping the King from raping his wife. Gorlois certainly didn't base his decision on revenge, so if his 'poor judgement' was passed on to Morgan, than it disproves the "revenge = stupidity" theory, because he wasn't motivated by vengeance.

I haven't read the TGS Pendragon stories. I have no idea how stupid that version of Morgan is, or why she is that stupid. But if she is stupid, it's ultimately because the writers need her to be so they can allow the heroes to win.

I always found the Arthurian mythos interesting, but it is not a story of heroes. It's a story about selfish people doing selfish things (and I mean basically the entire character lot) and ultimately everybody loses not because of Guinevere and Lancelot's love, but because from beginning to end, Uther to Arther, they simply can't keep it in their pants.

thoughtfully
Mooncat >^,,^<
Mooncat
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 01:01:35 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Hello all,

Wow! This comment room is really jumping. I haven't seen the CR this lively in a long time. I like it. I hope no one minds me tossing my tupence in the discussions.

The two faces of Morgana> I agree with Kaito's assessment of her two personalities, but I think her unstable, revenge-driven side is the original, truer self and the mature, wants-to-get-on-with-her-life side is the latter one. Her unstable side keeps the cycle going, but never allows her seek a permanent end to it. I think this is where the comparison with Demona ends. Demona used every means at her disposable, Morgana doesn't. Demona used magic, because she had the clear advantage, but she wasn't above using a laser rifle, a bazooka or even a mace or a rifle as a cudgel. Demona was interested in winning and wasn't that picky about the methods used to get there. Morgana isn't that interested in winning. She uses magic against an experienced magic-user. No big advantage there! Her real advantage is her modern experience. I suspect that was the nut of the Connection frame-up. Arthur is out of his depth in a modern-day dilemma, something that couldn't be solved with sword or sorcery. Unfortunately, she steered the problem back to familiar ground for Arthur and screwed her own plans. In the end, Morgana just doesn't want win. I don't think that is proof positive that there is a good person trying to get out, more like an unstable person repeating the same thing and expecting a different result.

Teamwork> I agree the potential is there. The Merry Persons (tm) are on the bubble. Teamwork hinges not only on following the leader, but how and how well the team works together. When I played soccer, almost everyone got a shot at team captain, but what mattered was how well we related to each other. If I knew who to pass and when. This depends on how much screen time and character development we'll see the neo-knights receive. I only recall Leba and Dulcinea fighting in Season 2 and Leba and Rory working together in Season 3.

I can see why the squiring is significant. Last season, Arthur only related to Mary as the adult babysitter intervening when Merlin and Mary quarreled. I hope this is a sign that Arthur and Mary will relate on a different level. I don't see a real change in how the others see her and relate to her though. If there was an established hierarchy as Airwalker suggested, then I could see it as Mary taking a step down. But I have to agree, the only thing keeping the group together are flimsy external pressures. That leads to my final point.

If Arthur is going to be a leader of men, he needs to act like it. He has the skills, but haven't seen him use it outside of the quests. In the Connection question, Merlin provided the information, Arthur the strong arm, and Mary the sarcastic banter. Leadership didn't seem to come into play. It seems like this Arthur wants to be in the center of the action rather than planning it from a distant. That's fine, but I don't think it makes him a prime candidate for leader.

Well, I see a new Pendragon story is up. I'm off for a read. Toddles!
Taleweaver
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 12:57:14 AM
IP: 24.205.177.107

TGS proudly presents a Pendragon Season 4 Story . . .

Choices part 1

Written by Todd Jensen.

Outline by Todd Jensen.

Original artwork by Lain.

Click my name, go to the link at the top of the cr that says "Current Episode", or visit http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/ce.html to read this week's story.
DPH - [<--Click here to read this week's story]
AR, USA
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 12:09:03 AM
IP: 204.94.193.30

LEO - You wrote: [Actually, Dulcina *did* get a formal initiation. It was at the end of "Yorkshire Adventure."]

Thanks for bringing this up; I hadn't remembered this little scene at all.

KAIOTO - You wrote: [Still, there are plenty of ways to retroactively clean that up, by flash-back or some such.]

Actually it might be more interesting to not fill it in with a retcon but instead go with it the same way S4 TIMEDANCER did with Meyrt and her Egypt/Cairo limitation. Make it into a story point. It would be nice to see someone who might not want to automatically submit and become a Knight.

You wrote: [Airwalker does have a point that the neo-Knights don't behave as much like Knights of Arthurian myth most of the time. I would submit, however, that times do change. This new line of knights are not land-owners, nor the police force of Britain.]

I don't actually have a problem with the modern Knights not behaving like Medieval Knights; my problem happens when they do start to behave like Medieval Knights. The tendancy of people these days is less towards submitting immediately to the collective or to an authority but that is what they seem to do. Some of these characters should not be having that easy a time accepting completely Arthur's way; they should be able to accept him much more as a friend than as a King. (Rory for example isn't Knighted - it would make an interesting story to see why he wouldn't want to accept that title; after all it fits the character more to rebel and not want to take another title on top of what has already been shoved onto his plate.)

Arthur behaving in a Medieval manner as a Medieval King-Knight is believable; but the way his people always seem to fall into line with him and his more Medieval ways isn't. In the beginning I could see them having humored him but it should be wearing thin by now. This isn't a time of absolute kingship and his Knights shouldn't (and aren't) conditioned to follow a Absolute Monarch. (Aren't a majority of the new Knights on top of everything outsiders and non-conformists to begin with?)

You wrote: [perhaps it is time to let the other knights pick up on quests and move on their own initiative and quests - much like the Knights of Round Table used to.]

Actually it probably would be much more organic to have them head off onto their own worries and difficulties. I hope that we'll get some of that as this season goes on. We got a good start to it in the first episode with Rory thinking about heading back to Ireland for a while.

TODD - You wrote: [The reason why we never gave Rory, Leba, and Dulcinea a "formal initiation" is that the Breakdowns for Season Two of "Pendragon" (when they joined Arthur and Griff) were particularly muddled; "Pendragon" was fused with "Gargoyles"]

Like others have said, it could always be retconned into a flashback somewhere down the line. The thing is that it might actually make for a better story to keep Rory and Leba not knighted but still considered Knights. Rory in particular to me seems like a character that wouldn't be eager to accept Knighthood if it were offered and the same might be true for Leba. The problem I mainly was pointing out before is that some members get an initiation and others don't which can lead to some in-between-the-line suggestions like I have been mentioning. But it would make for interesting character stories to see why they wouldn't take a Knighthood. There is an even more interesting angle than that - what if Arthur had specifically not offered them Knighthood? It could add interesting insight to how he might view the people he considers Knights but who aren't officially that. It could work to illuminate exactly why he would be a good leader, by showing his understanding of those around him. Its possible after all that giving out titles to those who might not need or want them could work out against him and that he could get more cooperation from his untitled Knights than he might if he forced a title on them.

You wrote: [Likewise, we'd forgotten that when we had Arthur make Mary his squire (and it really didn't occur to any of us that the move might be seen as humiliating her or that Arthur was trying to find an excuse to keep her from going).]

That it might be humiliating to her is more my perspective than anything else - I would be deeply insulted if I were in her place. But being insulted or not accepting the appointment might not be something that would occur to her; winning her argument and getting to come along would tend to distract her from the point of view I'm seeing.

(And besides now that she and Merlin have hooked up, she's basically largely distracted herself from her problems in favor of his; I hope that doesn't continue to happen in the future - concern is one thing but she's got problems and a life of her own. TGS couples aside from Brooklyn/Sata tend to turn into some luvi-duvi JeanScott merger once they hook up. Just look at Broadway/Angela and Benedict/Demona.)

Anyway, I can wait for her to start getting deeply insulted when he starts to actually treat her like a Squire. :-)

As for the excuse to keep her from going, I actually figured that as a possibility on the idea that no matter how advanced and heroic a character we want to make Arthur into, he's still a Medieval King. That makes it possible that he wouldn't want to have a woman join him on a quest for the Grail. And since there are gaps in the series on if all the Knights have actually been Knighted, it works nicely into the theory. (Not to mention that he's almost all but forgotten about her curse that he's supposed to be helping her out with. He doesn't exactly sound reassuring when he's suggesting she shouldn't go - she has to mention her curse to him rather than him bringing it up.) But it could always be seen another way - he could have been concerned about her coming along due to her age. She is very young and GrailHunting isn't exactly a safe thing to do. I hope that this gets elaborated on, one way or the other, as the series goes on.

Arthur talks like a Medieval man but seems to follow some sort of a 20th century guideline in how he deals with people. That shouldn't really be clicking completely. Even given that he has lived in Modern Times for a while, there should be a "glitch" between the two from time to time.

Greg wrote: [Todd, can you please stop apologizing] to which You wrote: [Sorry about that, Greg.]

:-) :-)

I meant to mention it in my last post but you don't have to apologize so much. The finished product is a good one; I like the series and want to see more of it. I just sometimes have a different perspective than you might when I sit down and read it. No need to apologize for that.

You wrote: [And Arthur might not have the authority to "dub" bards as he would knights]

It might be interesting to see how she might react to this now that Mary has a title; She might have been expecting something along the lines of a Knighthood while Arthur might have seen it as being unnecessary since he's named her a Bard. And now by making Mary a Squire, she's on the road to a Knighthood which could leave Leba feeling a bit miffed. After all a Bard isn't on the same level as a Knight.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, July 21, 2003 10:44:34 PM
IP: 12.88.163.28

Thanks for the piece on Morgana, Kaioto. I found it a fascinating read.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 21, 2003 10:13:45 PM
IP: 171.75.231.99

Todd >> Re: Morgana

There is also the possibility that Morgana is just a fruit-cake.

Seriously, to me, Morgana seems even less stable a personality than Demona - and that's saying something.

Demona was consumed by her hatred of humanity, and then tried to make some room for caring about other gargoyles (and her daughter). She still at least has one fundamental personality that is merely evolving due to other emotions.

Morgana is practically a split personality as we deal with her in two distinct roles. Yes, she is a cold-blooded murderess, destroyer, and criminal. Her quest for revenge is all-consuming and certainly not the most healthy or rational course of action. It doesn't surprise me that she makes significant mistakes. She's not stable.

Morgana's true self, underneath her obsession, is that or a deeply caring Mother figure. She desires a happy, healthy family for herself first and foremost. It would bring her more happiness than any revenge. She desires revenge because the crime commited against her was the destruction of her family. Morgana still can't put those demons to rest and move on with her life happily without some closure involving Merlin and her old family.

Morgana's persuit of closure via destroying Arthur and Merlin isn't exactly healthy. The damage it does to her is very clear in her scenes with Mary. Morgana wants her family back, but she can't come to terms with the fact that killing Merlin and Arthur will not mend her soul.

Looking at her last confrontation with Mary, I think it might be said that somewhere in her mind, Morgana actally knows her two personae can not coexist. The actions stemming from those desires antagonize one another.

On a sort of tangent to this, I'd have to say that Arthur's prime character flaw back in Camelot was that he was a great knight and leader, but a terrible husband and father. Mordred's destruction of Camelot rests SQUARELY on Arthur's shoulders. He tried to kill his son rather than raise him. He stained his hands with innocent blood trying to do so. Prophecy can't justify that. The future was shaped by his choices, not Merlin's visions. He ignored his wife and let the situation with Lancelot get out of hand. He brought the doom of Camelot by his personal sins alone.

If Arthur makes a new beginning in the modern world, and really wants to make a difference, he's going to have to learn to be a good - Man - not just a knight, a king, or a leader. Hopefully in dealing with these younger knights, his squire, his romantic interests, and even the youthened Merlin will help him learn how to repair his primary character flaws along the Grail Quest.

Of course, that's just how I see the characters.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Monday, July 21, 2003 10:03:33 PM
IP: 66.30.158.19

One thought about Morgana. It's been brought up that many of her actions are incredibly stupid. Giving it some thought, I found myself wondering if we really should be that surprised, given two features about her.

The first is that her motivation in fighting Arthur and Merlin is revenge. Revenge isn't exactly the best stimulator of intelligence; indeed, if anything, it often leads to very serious mistakes. It's noteworthy that Demona and the Archmage were both revenge-driven, and they both made a lot of serious blunders due to their hatred that cost them victory in the end. (Such as Demona shouting out about how the Praying Gargoyle will protect the gargoyles from her plague in "Hunter's Moon", which promptly alerts Goliath to his importance so that he goes after it and smashes it, or the Archmage amusing himself by magically torturing Goliath instead of simply zapping him.) By contrast, the most intelligent and level-headed antagonist in the television series, Xanatos, was the one who considered revenge foolish and a waste of time (the closest that he ever got to it was with Sevarius in "Double Jeopardy", and there it came across more as a necessary disciplinary measure than genuine revenge). So Morgana's desire for vengeance may well be impairing her judgement.

Alongside that, it is worth noting that a close study of the war between Uther and Gorlois leads to the conclusion that Gorlois was not very bright; he made two serious blunders during it that cost him the war and his life.

The first of these was when he decided, after noticing how Uther was lusting after Igraine at court, to leave Uther's palace without asking for the king's leave and head back to Cornwall at once. The trouble was that, in that period of history, departing from court without the king's permission was considered an act of rebellion against the king. By doing so, Gorlois gave Uther an advantage; Uther could justify his war on Gorlois by claiming that it was to punish him for leaving court without leave and using that as a cover for his real motive, his desire for Igraine. A more intelligent decision would have been to remain at court and talk to some of Uther's counsellors for the purpose of getting them to talk to Uther and dissuade him from lusting after Igraine by pointing out to him the trouble that would come from coveting the wife of one of his vassals.

The other was his making a sortie against Uther's army, also a foolish act because his garrison was much smaller than Uther's besieging army. (This I've noted before.) A more sensible decision would have been to stay in the castle where he could use its defences against Uther's troops.

Could Morgana have inherited her father's poor judgement? It's not impossible.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 21, 2003 09:31:59 PM
IP: 171.75.231.99

Simple explanation. Arthur knighted Rory off camera.
Greg Bishansky
Monday, July 21, 2003 08:48:27 PM
IP: 216.179.3.101

Technically speaking, Leba's function is really that of a Bard rather than a Knight - and a Bard is a very different creature altogether from a Knight or a Squire. (A Squire is really a Knight-in-training, after all.) And Arthur might not have the authority to "dub" bards as he would knights - traditionally, bards would be subject to a "Bardic Council" where knights were subject to their king.

As for Rory - we might simply have missed that scene during the general Season Two chaos; it's long enough ago that I've forgotten a lot of the details then. (It's entirely possible that everyone thought that somebody else was going to do that scene and so nobody did it.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 21, 2003 08:46:14 PM
IP: 171.75.231.99

Leo >> Good catch there. The situation isn't as unfounded as it seemed.

To think of it, if Dulcina and Griff are knighted, and Mary is a Squire, the only odd-people-out are Rory and Leba. I could even see why Rory might not be formally knighted as he is the embodiment of a hero from a separate mythos. Leba seems like she's definitely been left hanging, though.

Still, there are plenty of ways to retroactively clean that up, by flash-back or some such.

Airwalker does have a point that the neo-Knights don't behave as much like Knights of Arthurian myth most of the time. I would submit, however, that times do change. This new line of knights are not land-owners, nor the police force of Britain.

Camelot is dead.

Its legacy is trying to live in the modern world. I don't think it is unreasonable to have some disconnect. Still, I think enough time has been spent focused on Arthur's less convenient legacies and perhaps it is time to let the other knights pick up on quests and move on their own initiative and quests - much like the Knights of Round Table used to.

While the Grail Quest goes on, the other Knights could busy themselves seeking the 13 Treasures of Britain or some such. There is certainly plenty of potential to keep them busy - even if the on-camera time stil focuses mostly on Arthur.

I'm still very happy wit Pendragon. It has a whole lot of potential and is just beginning to come into its own. Todd's very right in that Season 2 was very much entangled with Gargoyles. Season 3 seems to have given Arthur a more fresh start. Season 4 finally begins to draw Arthur and his Knights into a more familiar role. I hope that theme continues to expand.

Keep up the good work, folks!
Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Monday, July 21, 2003 08:28:48 PM
IP: 66.30.158.19

Thanks, Leo. I must have forgotten that scene.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 21, 2003 08:09:07 PM
IP: 67.75.180.73

Todd:<<we never gave formal knighting scenes for Leba, Rory, and Dulcinea>>

Actually, Dulcina *did* get a formal initiation. It was at the end of "Yorkshire Adventure."

----------excerpt----------
""Kneel, Dulcinea," Arthur urged gently. All the others looked up, catching this impromptu ceremony. Dulcinea got down on one knee.

Arthur assumed a stately tone of voice. "You've proven yourself an excellent warrior and a valiant protector. By this sword and by my hand, I dub you Dame Dulcinea, knight of the Round Table.""

Leo
Monday, July 21, 2003 07:42:28 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Sorry about that, Greg.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 21, 2003 07:34:23 PM
IP: 67.75.180.73

Todd, can you please stop apologizing.
Greg Bishansky
Monday, July 21, 2003 07:27:04 PM
IP: 216.179.3.101

Actually, the reason why we never gave Rory, Leba, and Dulcinea a "formal initiation" is that the Breakdowns for Season Two of "Pendragon" (when they joined Arthur and Griff) were particularly muddled; "Pendragon" was fused with "Gargoyles" but still had the reputation with most of the staff of, so to speak, the little kid with the glasses whom nobody wants on his team (primarily winding up this way because too many staff members were intimidated by the Arthurian elements). We were still recovering from the debacle of the original head of "Pendragon" (Jeffrey High) wanting the series to be a retelling of the original legends where the present-day bits with Arthur and Griff searching for Merlin would be just a framework for them. And things were confused enough that I think that nobody ever noticed that we never gave formal knighting scenes for Leba, Rory, and Dulcinea. Likewise, we'd forgotten that when we had Arthur make Mary his squire (and it really didn't occur to any of us that the move might be seen as humiliating her or that Arthur was trying to find an excuse to keep her from going).

Most of the problems with "Pendragon" stem, I fear, more from confusion on the staff's part (largely due to a Season One that never entirely recovered from the well-meaning damage that Jeffrey High inflicted upon it) over the direction of the series and of Arthur than from anything intrinsic about the characters. (Sometimes, I confess, I dream of finding some way of redoing "Pendragon" all over again from the start, beginning where the television episode left off with Arthur knighting Griff, and this time organizing it so as to give more direction, making the characters more consistent, and including "legend-retelling flashbacks" only when they're intrinsic to explaining the present-day action. Of course, it isn't a genuine option at present, alas.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 21, 2003 07:20:55 PM
IP: 67.75.180.73

**SOME TGS COMMENTS AHEAD**

KAIOTO - You wrote: [Yet, Arthur became High King of Britain - and not due merely to his strength of arms, magical blessings, or bloodline.]

While I'm not really disagreeing with you that it was his ability to lead that kept him enthrowned as King of Britian, lets not underestimate the extreme importance of the other elements you mentioned. It wasn't just charisma and presence that helped him to get the crown; those were elements that helped him KEEP the crown. The other elements were just as important on the road to Kingship.

You wrote: [I'm sure many of us would turn up our noses at the notion of kneeling and taking an oath like that.]

The real problem is that PENDRAGON isn't sure how to present itself. Is it a group of Knights on a single driven mission that sometimes branches off into quests like the one they are on now or is it just a loose collection of friends that met, like to hang out and get into an occassional adventure for some reason?

Only Griff got a title of any sort and nothing came up when Rory and the others joined up. Even if they call themselves Knights every once in a while, they haven't really formalized it; its almost like its just a funny nickname they stuck to their group after watching too much Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So why start all of a sudden with Mary? If everyone gets an initiation then Mary getting one symbolizes her acceptance into the group; but if everyone else doesn't and she only gets it after backing Arthur into a corner with a logical argument then it takes on a different look (i.e. that he wanted her to stay home and couldn't come up with a good reason so covered his ass by giving her a title to wow her and distract everyone else from asking too many questions about why he wouldn't want her along - its a good leadership mark by the way, to recover and adapt so quickly but that isn't the point).

I do turn my nose up at having to bow or kneel outside of certain circumstances (like serving in the army for example). Arthur may be called the once and future King but he's nothing right now but an unemployed detective who's living off a poor and cash strapped Gargoyle Clan. These are his friends and not subjects. He's not in command; everyone deals with him because they want to and not because they have to. Even if Arthur is a better leader at this point than Mary or Griff might be, why should either of them bow to him? Particularly when they have been dealing with each other as equals up to that point?

You wrote: [I'm also sure many of us would never last two weeks in the Armed Forces or even on a High School sports team.]

The problem here is that this isn't an organized group that we are dealing with. This isn't the Army or a Football team. Its a loose group of friends who have Arthur at the core. But while they might go questing every once in a while, there really isn't some main, overriding goal that they are hanging around for and trying to accomplish. Fighting evil, even looking for the Grail is something that they stumbled on or end up forced to do to help out individuals in the group. If Merlin weren't sick for example then the idea of looking for the Grail wouldn't even have come up. They'd still be sitting around the London Clan Estate or Shop, basically hanging out and killing time.

You wrote: [Good teams are greater than the sum of their individual members.]

I'm not arguing against teamwork; in a battle for example Pendragon and the others would lose if everyone went and did his own thing (Hell, that's basically the first 15 minutes of the first TEEN TITANS episode). But the thing here is that PENDRAGON isn't a team series. (It wants to be but doesn't have enough structure for it. Its not like how a group like BAD GUYS would function, where they are a specific group with a specific mission and a specific hierarchy. This is a much looser group; its not a team and its not a family (family fits GARGOYLES more) - its more friends than anything else.) And with that view of it, having Mary subordinate herself at this point to the position of squire after having been dealing with the group as an equal seems insulting. The titles didn't mean much before this point so why start it off now?

You wrote: [Well, if my observations are correct, the conclusion should actually be about Mary and the Grail.]

An interesting suggestion; I actually figured it more to be Griff and the Grail. (Odds seem better on that because Griff is largely neutral good in the travelling cast; he is going along for the quest itself rather than for any other specific purpose. Besides he's the only real Knight in the bunch - Arthur is a King, Mary is a Squire, and Merlin is a Magician.) Mary is innocent to a certain extent and wants to help Merlin (it seems that the thought hasn't occured to her that the Grail can be a cure for her) but no matter how noble the desire is for her to want to help, she still wants the Grail for what it could see as a selfish reason - she doesn't want her boyfriend to die. Only Griff has enough distance from the entire situation to be able to not only approach the Grail but to ask it for a favor so to speak.

TODD - You wrote: [I know that we honestly never intended to give the impression of Arthur as stupid or of his knights as "groupies" and if we have given that impression, then we are deeply sorry for it.]

I don't think that Arthur is really stupid, as much as he can be really dense sometimes. And even that is mostly my view because he's constantly being hyped as the Once and Future King but he hasn't really lived up to that much; he lacks direction more than anyone else in the cast.

As for calling the rest of the cast "groupies", that was really me just trying some shorthand to describe the group more than anything else although without Arthur having some overriding goal/mission for all of them to work together on, they aren't really doing much but follow him around as he goes on one random quest after another. If Merlin weren't sick, he'd be at the Estate sulking.

**END OF SOME TGS COMMENTS**
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, July 21, 2003 07:00:51 PM
IP: 12.88.199.22

Re: Pendragon (Beware, I'm not pulling punches with Spoilers)

I have to say, I'm enjoying the new season.

Personally, I don't have much of a problem with the whole Knights / Squire thing with Arthur. I think many of the problems with Arthur's fellowship stem from underdevelopment of some character traits and the faux-intellectual subculture of modern society. Individualism has been replaced by unabashed selfishness. This is most exemplified by the ignorance paid to the value of teamwork.

Nothing important in Pendragon can be accomplished without teamwork. The sort of teamwork that goes on in Pendragon requires a - leader -. Arthur is the best candidate for that job - period. While the geek-riddled Internet might encourage fantasies of Utopian rule by Plato's philosopher-kings, reality is a harsh mistress. The effective leaders are almost never the strongest, the most intelligent, or the wisest. Heck, leaders usually aren't the prettiest or most kindly people either.

Leadership is a social skill - something I'll admit to having the utmost contempt for as a child. I think Arthur's leadership qualities just aren't emphasized very much lately in Pendragon. Michael has gotten more leadership points than Arthur, IMO. Anyway, I learned the hard way that you can't get much meaningful done in this life by merely being an outspoken smart-ass. I've learned through observation that shouting, "Do you know who I am!?" whenever someone questions your decisions isn't a very efficient way of doing things either.

Yet, Arthur became High King of Britain - and not due merely to his strength of arms, magical blessings, or bloodline. Arthur was a leader of men. Arthur is still a leader of men. It is only his presence and charisma that can keep the diverse Pendragon crew together on large-scale projects.

As for Mary taking the oath to become a Squire, she's formalizing (through age-old ritual) a commitment to her group. She's been a part of this team due to necessity. Now she is making a personal commitment in good faith to bind herself to this group - even if her personal vested interest were to be fulfilled tomorrow. That's part of build trust, fellowship, and even family. That doesn't mean she stops being an individual. Her commitment means working for the best interests of the entire group, not blindly following orders.

Is such a ritual even necessary? Probably not, honestly, but it tends to be a morale-booster - and once it becomes a tradition, being excluded from the induction process tends to make one feel isolated in little ways.

Even the Japanese samurai of 18th and 19th century Asian romance had an obligation to refuse his Daimyo's command if he judged it to be against the interests of the Daimyo or a greater good (the Emperor, the Family, etc.). Of course, the right of refusal was based in the seppuku ritual, but just about everything in the samurai romance revolved around dying in some spectacular fashion so it is only really par for the course.

I'm sure many of us would turn up our noses at the notion of kneeling and taking an oath like that. I'm also sure many of us would never last two weeks in the Armed Forces or even on a High School sports team. Despite this, there are still plenty of people in this world that are willing enough to join teams and play follow-the-leader for the great good of their unit (be it family, community, nation, or even the entire human race). And, despite the temptation to condescend, those people are not all a bunch of mindless sheep either. Good teams are greater than the sum of their individual members.

As for the Holy Grail, I'm pleased with the idea that the Pendragon crew doesn't try to gloss over the religious implications of Arthurian Mythology. While Gargoyles traditionally avoids spotlighting issues of modern politics, modern religion, and sexuality - it doesn't play make-believe either. Instead, much is left to be inferred by the reader.

No one ever goes to the Bathroom on Star Trek either. We just sort of assume that any functions that are vital to an individual but not plot-driven are dealt with off-camera.

For instance, in Gargoyles we've seen churches, priests, and rabbis. Religion and religious people exist. Arthur refers to the high feasts of Pentecost he had with his knights. Oberon refers to "Dark Arts" that are beyond human sorcery, modern science, or Fay magic. Titania alludes to the Holy Grail, referring to a means beyond science, sorcery, or magic. The concepts of sins and worthiness are voiced. When you take the Gargoyles universe into view, with its mythical creatures and magical forces, skepticism about a lot of things starts to become less stable.

Yet nothing dogmatic is ever introduced. Arthur does not pray "on camera," for instance. That is as it should be - as it is almost always completely irrelevant to the plot. The possible connection between the historical Jesus and the Holy Grail will have little to do with the plot. This is about Arthur and the Grail.

Well, if my observations are correct, the conclusion should actually be about Mary and the Grail. Just reflecting on the matter for a little while, I can't see much likelihood in the Grail accepting Arthur after what he has done. Better men with lesser sins have failed the Grail Quest. Unless a good deal of time is spent on the notion of Arthur seeking absolution, he shouldn't even be able to stand in the same room with it. Out of his current companions, only Griff and Mary seem like they'd have any chance of obtaining the Grail.

Griff's candidacy is due to the fact that nothing bad about the guy ever sees print. He's kind of a flat, likeable, nice-guy sort of character.

Mary's candidacy stems from the fact that most of her failings are those of childishness and she seems to possess more innocence than the rest of the group. Plus, her concern regarding the Grail appears to be distinctly driven by True Love. The first and only thought in her mind regarding the Grail is that it could heal Merlin - no room in her mind for the rather obvious notion that it could remove her curse of Lycanthropy. - That - is the sort of purity of purpose that can lead a Knight to the presence of the Holy Grail.

It also adds meaning to her being made a Squire. As I recall, Sir Galahad completed the Grail Quest - did he not? And he was of a remarkably young age when he did so. Just something running around in the back of my mind.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Monday, July 21, 2003 03:34:21 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

gb>> <> i hate you. i own 39 cents.. CANADIAN - and thats on my overdraft!!!!!!!!!!!

so yeah. anyone want some art? im begging you people.. seriously.. *gets on hands and knees*
lain
Monday, July 21, 2003 02:35:23 PM
IP: 65.93.84.185

GB: Could you please be more specific?
Josh
Monday, July 21, 2003 01:55:13 PM
IP: 17.255.96.111

Greetings to all. I am no wback in Germany. Nine months in Kosovo was fun at times and I'll miss that extra money, but I'm glad to be back. I did save up 10 grand, which was good.

August 8 I leave Germnay and visit Lain in Canada, thus starting my North American tour,a nd sometime in September I fly into Korea, where I will spend my next 16 months at Camp Humphreys a little bit south of Seoul. Primary mission: leave Korea a bachelor and maybe also a Sergeant.

Imzadi> Hope your summer has been going well. BTW, I have something for you, if you're interested.

Lain> I'll let you know when exactly I arrive. And just for you, I'll be wearing the three-piece suit I bought in Kosovo. Supposedly it's Gucci, but I odubt I can buy a Gucci three-piece for $120.00. I'll also be wearing another fake status symbol ;) Gotta love Balkan shopping.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Hanau, Germany
Monday, July 21, 2003 07:21:46 AM
IP: 140.156.6.2

Wish me luck I've got finals this week! I cannot believe how fast the last six weeks have been.

I was thinking on how far behind the eps. are. Perhaps it should be changed to a more tv series type timeline. You know put some time between episodes; a couple of months here, a few weeks there. Just an idea.

Later.
Jaden - [jaden1443@aol.com]
Monday, July 21, 2003 01:23:01 AM
IP: 172.192.185.131

just wondering. is there an estimate as to when Gargoyles season four is coming out, cuz you see, the way the authors right it, it's kind of like crack... it's addictive...
Andy Wong - [timberwolf_11214@yahoo.com]
NY, NY, USA
Monday, July 21, 2003 01:16:19 AM
IP: 216.194.21.243

Fire Storm> <<Reason?: LOGIC ERROR>>: Need any help from someone with a CS BS?

Tony> <<Did anyone call 10?>>: Claiming matters not, being there is all that is needed.

Leo> <<you can find out the date the story was first "modified">>: Last modified, not first modified. Besides, it doesn't match for the early stories.

Fire Storm> <<Of course not! THAT would make SENSE!>>: Sense? Who follows sense? It's nonsense where the action's at.

Lain> <<what.. the #()&*$^ IS GOING ON WITH MY COMPUTER>>: Demagnetization of the disk surface. It can be dangerous, but one computer we had here had a single bad sector for a good number of years, without developing any more. Just do a thorough scandisk, and if you get a signifacant chunk of bad sectors (maybe double digits, defninately triple), try to think of any magnets near your computer, if it takes any hits, or is near any heat sources.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, July 21, 2003 01:14:32 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

so yeah. go to fire up the old computer.. and lo..
"you may have developed bad sectors on your hard disk" or somesuch.

remember how this happened before?

remember how it was like.. 3 months ago? and i went and got a new hard drive installed and everything?

what.. the #()&*$^ IS GOING ON WITH MY COMPUTER?!?!?!?!

i think im being screwed over. and i think i didnt even have time to get my condom for this round.. :P
lain
Monday, July 21, 2003 12:58:20 AM
IP: 65.93.85.225

DPH: 
It's no fun when you have to follow the rules you write!
Fire Storm
Sunday, July 20, 2003 10:47:31 PM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Fire Storm - <Also, TGS staff... PLEASE date the newest Pendragon stories!> let's see. There's this file with a title called "How to Release a Season". On that page, there's a header called "Second Steps". Right under that header, there's a paragraph that say the following: "These are the things that are done every week when releasing a story". Under that paragraph, there are several bullet points. One of the bullet points contains the following: "On the season episode archive page, list the publication date next to the story." I guess the guy who created that file (myself) probably needs to give me a lesson in reading directions. :-) Don't worry. The dates will be listed next time I release a story.
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, July 20, 2003 10:27:58 PM
IP: 204.94.193.76

Leo: <Have you looked at the main Gargoyles Fan page at the "TGS Episode List" link?>
Of course not! THAT would make SENSE!
Fire Storm
Sunday, July 20, 2003 10:13:47 PM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Fire Storm: Re TGS air dates:

Umm, before you do that....
Have you looked at the main Gargoyles Fan page at the "TGS Episode List" link? :-)

(I think Season One is the only one listed)

Leo - [<Season 1 TGS Episode List]
Sunday, July 20, 2003 09:52:34 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Firestorm:<<Does anyone have the release dates for the TGS Season 1 stories (TD, DA, Main, Pendragon)?>>

I don't know if these are the actual release dates. But using a Netscape or Mozilla Browser, you can find out the date the story was first "modified" by right clicking the story page and then "View Page Info"

For example:

TGS Gargoyles Season 1 "Fallout: Part One"
[http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/garg/season1/fallout1.html]
Modified: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 7:02:53 PM

I guess you could look in the CR archives near that date to confirm it.

Does this help?

Leo
Sunday, July 20, 2003 09:44:03 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Hi all! I'm coming here with news from the Gathering 2004 staff.

Our website, www.GatheringOfTheGargoyles.com, will be ready at the beginning of August, as well as online registration.

Now, we're thinking of doing something special in terms of contests this year, and I'd like your opinion on the following idea.

We want to do contests for writing and art, by setting a particular theme around which the art and the stories have to be drawn and written. For the writing, we will ask for short stories; for art, it will have to be b&w illustrations. The winning entries will be put together as a book, and a third contest would be for the cover of the book -- a colour illustration would get chosen for that. Now, we're talking about a real, german bound book (like a paperback), in 8 1/2 x 11 format, an anthology of Gargoyles-based stories with an art section, which we would pre-sell to finance the convention. Right now, according to our price research, we'd sell the books for $15.

Would you participate in such a contest? Would you buy such a book? If you have any comments on this, please let me know here, or at the email address below!

Thanks!
Patrick - [poll@gatheringofthegargoyles.com]
Sunday, July 20, 2003 07:58:27 PM
IP: 65.43.163.183

Did anyone call 10? Eh, who cares? Hi gang.
Tony Elliot - [h664e34@hotmail.com]
Milwaukee, WI, Somewhere between Mexico and Canadia
Sunday, July 20, 2003 07:33:34 PM
IP: 65.29.185.207

Does anyone have the release dates for the TGS Season 1 stories (TD, DA, Main, Pendragon)?

Also, TGS staff... PLEASE date the newest Pendragon stories!

There are 265 total TGS stories (give or take a few) and 91 without dates.

TGS Story database: Awaiting data
TGS Image database: ... Yeah, right. Not even started out of fear.
CR Text color database: Complete
CR Images database: Need to remeber to bring needed data with me...
CR Archive database: *sobs*
NEW Database based CR info pages: No where NEAR even started!
Reason?: LOGIC ERROR
Why?: LM needs a quicker way to update the CR Info pages. (IE: LM unhappy. FS make happy!)
Fire Storm
Sunday, July 20, 2003 06:54:36 PM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Lynati - *tags* drop me an e-mail, need to ask you a question about some Gathering pics I'd like to post.

Also... what are the little spike thingy's on the back of the Phoenix Gate for? I tried to set it down on them for display, but the balance is off and it tips over. I can't think of what else they'd be for.

*toddles off to do house work*

Mooncat
Mooncat - [rapturev@yahoo.com]
Sunday, July 20, 2003 06:37:51 PM
IP: 68.102.0.23

*mumbles in*

Revel: heh. I will. 've got the soundtrack CD'd on me.

*off to Michigan*
Lynati
Sunday, July 20, 2003 09:19:52 AM
IP: 159.189.24.202

AIRWALKER - Thanks for your reply. Truth to tell, the production team simply never seems to have considered the points that you made. (I know that we honestly never intended to give the impression of Arthur as stupid or of his knights as "groupies" and if we have given that impression, then we are deeply sorry for it.)

I know that we did not intend to make it look as if Arthur was refusing to take Mary along with them because of her lack of an official title or because of her gender - and again, if we mistakenly gave that impression, I again apologize for the goof on our part. And we honestly never intended to convey the impression of Mary as being demoted to a subordinate rather than an equal; we had her become a squire because of her youth (at 15, she's not old enough for knighthood).

And actually, the possibility that the Grail might be able to cure Mary simply never occurred to any of us on the staff (just as it never occurred to us, for that matter, re "Return to Avalon", to solve the Griff-and-Brianna problem by having Brianna coming along - although it may have "helped" there that most of the staff at present for "Pendragon" don't have a strong enough grasp of Brianna's character to make her into a regular.) I guess that there are some extremely obvious things out there that you have to be a reader rather than a member of the production team in order to notice.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, July 20, 2003 07:11:11 AM
IP: 171.75.230.186

I call 9 *falls to the floor and falls asleep* 3 weeks on holiday in florida can make you very tired!
silverbolt
Sunday, July 20, 2003 04:25:08 AM
IP: 81.131.39.203

Eighth in the name of... GROOVY!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr.
Tampa, FL
Sunday, July 20, 2003 04:17:12 AM
IP: 24.164.29.133

7th in the name of the Fay!

mc
MooncatX
Sunday, July 20, 2003 03:00:13 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

6th.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, July 20, 2003 01:29:26 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

5th!

TODD - You wrote: [Pendragon is still late 1999. Yes, a few years behind, but the trouble is that we haven't been able to turn things out as quickly as we used to;]

I don't mind at all if TGS dates are still a little behind real life; I just wanted to know a little more specifically. I don't think that any of the more recent stories have really referenced specific dates in them so its not as clear as it used to be.

You wrote: [I don't think that Arthur, Mary, or anybody else in "Pendragon" was seeing Mary as an official member of Arthur's entourage prior to this point, but more as a "client";]

The way I saw it was that this was how it started out and then along the way that stopped being the only reason she was along for the ride. I figured that the group got used to it and just stopped bringing up the original reason she started hanging out with them. Arthur seems pretty casual about the other PENDRAGON groupies (i.e. Rory and Company) following him around without really having official title so why all of a sudden start to make a big deal about it just when they are about to go Grail Hunting?

(And by the way, if Mary is sort of their "client" before the end of this episode then they've been doing a really lousy job. Mary does mention her curse enough times to keep it in the minds of the readers who have grown accustomed to her in a Werewolf situation but in story nobody else really does. I understand Merlin has other worries at this point but what about everyone else? Caspian and Una seem to have given up, Merlin is occupied, the Groupies don't really seem to have much of an interest, and Arthur is pretty thickheaded and forgetful about the entire thing. Otherwise why try to deny her a right to go GrailHunting when the Grail could probably cure the curse she's under?)

You wrote: [Her becoming Arthur's squire was intended to indicate a turning point in her career, going from somebody merely seeking help from Arthur to a full-fledged member of his party.]

If I were Mary, I'd be pretty insulted at the whole thing; the entire situation that Arthur creates at the end of the story seems more like him trying to find an excuse to keep her out of a GrailHunt rather than really caring about her having some title in the group. Even if she was technically a "client" before this point, she was interacting with them as an equal. Now she is subordinate to Arthur. Being appointed a squire can be seen as a downgrade in status.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, July 20, 2003 12:06:07 AM
IP: 12.88.196.12

Number 4
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:37:58 PM
IP: 4.72.102.253

threeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!
lain
Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:17:47 PM
IP: 65.93.87.45

Dos!
Dezi
Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:08:12 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

#1!!!!!!!!!!
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:05:36 PM
IP: 204.94.193.44