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ARG! I just had a nice post all ready and my browser shuts down before I send it. Hate it when that happenes.

Gside-<second wind>Maybe but it felt more like a sudden shock a electricity and I was awake.

Spike-Tell Briana "excellent job" from me. I got a real laugh from the anime.

Well I've got some catching up to do on Pendragon.
Later.
Jaden
Monday, August 4, 2003 02:42:58 AM
IP: 4.3.67.212

Thankyou to everyone who has already contacted me about what they could do for avalon mists..you all rock soo soo much!

Firestorm> submissions by the 15th. I know its majorly last minute. -_-;; So I totally understand if people can't make it by that date.

And yes, the site will once again be on GFW. :)

In fact, 2/3 is pretty much coded. I'm just assembling, collecting, and referencing story articles and images right now. :)

Also, There's going to be sort of a fan feedback/letters to the editor type page..so feel free to email responses and comments on news stories. Tell us what you like and dislike. <:)

And..I'm dizzy and tired..I think I'll call it a night and do more coding tomorrow. O.o;;
Siryn - [siryn7@aol.com]
Monday, August 4, 2003 02:16:28 AM
IP: 24.213.130.186

Jackal> <<the question, "are you mad"?>>: We're all mad here.

Lain> <<to the sickly sweet scent of weed drifting through my window>>: See, didn't I tell you that about your memory?

Lynati> <>: Even the firefighters?

Fire Storm> <<Please explain>>: My brother (and his not wife and his daughter) is a vegetarian, and I eat a lot of meat. And I am referencing the "sponsor a vegetarian" (http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html) area of the site I linked.
<<How? I thought they couldn't>>: What are you talking about? I'm talking about EMACS (Editing MACroS, aka Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping, aka Escape Meta Alt Control Shift), the text editor created by Richard Stallman in 1976, and currently on version 21. Since I only got my hands on Unix in college, it can easily be my first learnt Unix editor.
<<Well, and if you can't find Michigan>>: Michigan is on the outside.
<<Which type of fan-fic story do you prefer>>: I'll take it how I can get it, but I get annoyed by people who don't finish their incremental stories after releasing most of them.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, August 4, 2003 01:27:47 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Last?

Bud-Clare: <The worst part, to my mind, is that she won't even let her family and friends call her by a shortened version. wtf?>
I say call her "She-who-shall-not-be-named" or call her by her FULL name
http://www.GoVeg.com

lain: <well.. *I* fell out of my chair and hurt myself i was laughing so hard. that was GREAT :D>
That's all I wanted! I had fun writing it, and I wanted really fresh meat to read it and think it COULD be true!
Plus, I HAD to give homage to Madame Destine-Toman

Gside: <I'm essentially sponsoring my brother>
Please explain
<Ah, I can understand that. Emacs was my first>
How? I thought they couldn't.
<And then you drop a link within a day it was posted there.>
Well, he just has some of the most interesting links!

lain, gside: <<<if you cant find your home state on a map.. OF AMERICA>>: Hey, Jersey is easy to find. It's just that no one really cares about all the ones in the middle.>
Well, and if you can't find Michigan...

Quick poll: Which type of fan-fic story do you prefer: (all other things being equal)
a. Multiple smaller stories
b. Single large story

Example: Any of Christine's stories broken into a dozen or so smaller bits or as one large story
Fire Storm
Sunday, August 3, 2003 11:01:40 PM
IP: 66.72.178.104

just a quickie before I go to supper...

Lynati!!!! Nope, no e-mail. Are you sending it to my current e-mail addy? Either rapturev at yahoo.com or my cox.net addys should work. I have been waiting to hear if I can show my pics of the "After Gathering" collapse in my room. *^_^* heh...

As for selling the Gate... well, technically it is illegal as it's under the Disney Trademark as part of their ownership of the Gargoyles. Yes lots of people sell original artwork, and if it's of a Disney character it's illegal unless they 1) have a license from Disney, or 2) are using the image in a parody (example Mad Magazine doing a parody of Gargoyles) -- It's like speeding, lots of people do it, but it only matters if you get caught. However unlike speeding, the fines and penalties are pretty steep. But enforcement is random, you'd have to be very unlucky or making noticeable amounts of money for Disney to notice you. What you'd have to worry about is how you'd advertise your wares. People do original art of trademarked characters at conventions all the time, and the powers that be don't really pay attention, but if something is advertised on the web, where it's documentable proof of infringement and profit making, that could get you hit with a cease and desist. Independent Professionals who have web pages often cover their behinds with statements that they do not do art commissions of trademarked/copyrighted characters.

Cartoon -- Kawaiiiiiii!!!! Damn that's cute *^_^*

Okay gotta run for now, more post later!

>^,,^<
mc
Sunday, August 3, 2003 09:19:43 PM
IP: 68.102.0.23

spike> lol that wedding thing was cute! :D sounds VERY familiar though, but can't remember why, oh well, this was cuter anyway :) *goes off to read 'TGS:When The Bough Breaks – Part One' for no reason whatsoever ;)*
silverbolt
Sunday, August 3, 2003 08:08:19 PM
IP: 81.131.4.24

Belated birthday wishes to Mara, why I had it written down as being in August, the world will never know...looks like your present is going to be late instead of early. : (

Mooncat: did you get that email I wrote you about a week and a half ago? I just noticed a weird “delivery failure” message ...

Niamhgold: sore wa himetsu desu... *whistles innocently*

Firestorm: how would selling it (the gate) be illegal? People sell original art of the disney Gargoyles characters all the time.

Firestorm/Spacebabie: <<<Fang?>>>In my ficverse Fang as a clown phobia>>> That reminds me, I have to get around to finishing up my art for the “can’t sleep, clones will eat me” parody shirt.

Spacebabie: [Man I just started reading the beginning of the CR archive and well Tood, FS, and LM are technically the only three that are still posting regulary..I think ED too if the eD now is the same back then.]

I’ve got a spreadsheet of sorts showing who posted each week, starting with the first month the CR was ever open, and going...well, it will go to present eventually, but right now I’ve only got the first six months (through the first week of january 1999) compiled into the final format. And of those who posted in the first week alone, a few still do post with regularity- it’s just they regularly only post once every month or so. And its a bit surprising, the number who are still around, as well as those who are still in the fandom, simply not posting in TGS.

Leo: <Silence of the lambs, the musical> *goes to listen to it.*
__Nemesis (*with huge anime fangirl eyes, which are steadily getting bigger as we listen to each track) :: KUWAIIII!!!

Btw, anyone who went to check out the links that Spike just posted, check out the comments made on each piece as well.

And on an ending note, I second everything on JacKal’s list.

Lynati
Sunday, August 3, 2003 08:03:18 PM
IP: 67.64.40.208

I just thought I'd pass along the latest TGS-inspired fanart from the talented Briana Garcia, now on DeviantArt.

Graeme & Ariana
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/2580188

A little anime-style cartoon featuring Angela, Broadway, & Elisa
http://www.deviantart.com/view/2580132

Consider that your Sunday funnies for today!

*goes back to work on Naughty & Dice*
Spike
Sunday, August 3, 2003 08:24:31 AM
IP: 64.216.239.81

The Tintagel Massacre was not brought into "Twilight Falls" to undermine Gorlois's characterization, but rather to show the perilous plight for gargoyles in immediately pre-Arthurian Britain (Tintagel being chosen for the location because Greg Weisman once mentioned Tintagel being the real-life original for Castle Wyvern).

"Rape" is not an accurate description for Uther's actions towards Igraine; "seduction" would be much more accurate. Uther didn't take Igraine by force, but pretended to be her husband, with the result that she willingly brought him to her bed. It was an act of deception, not of violence. (Indeed, since Igraine never realized or even suspected that the man with her wasn't her husband until she learned, after Uther had left, that Gorlois had been slain in battle before the man looking like him showed up at Tintagel, it would have had to have been guile rather than force all the way.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, August 3, 2003 06:26:13 AM
IP: 171.75.194.106

Lain: <but doesnt it explain a lot>
Must be why you wake up hungry!
Fire Storm
Sunday, August 3, 2003 04:17:23 AM
IP: 66.72.178.104

and i awaken.. to the sickly sweet scent of weed drifting through my window.

i wonder how often this happens during the night and i just dont wake up...

but doesnt it explain a lot :P
lain
Sunday, August 3, 2003 04:02:09 AM
IP: 65.93.84.201

waits for the room to wipe...

Saw "the Ring" today, and was intrigued. What a fun movie *^_^* -- I'm going to see if I can find translations of the sequel books, "the Spiral" and "the Loop" ... I want to see if some of the dangling threads are addressed. Already have plans to see Ringu, the original Japanese version, with friends. First Ringu, then the Carebears in Wonderland, with an Eddie Izzard chaser. Also saw Zombie and can see why it's a Fangoria favorite. It was a lot of fun, in "B horror movie" kinda way. And finally got to see all of Near Dark. Yay! Yes today was horror movie day *^_^* Sort of a Saturday break as the anime club is waiting for our Otaking to return to us from his durance vile in HAWAII for the last three years.

Todd and Airwalker - hmmm... Cynicism or Objectivity? I'm not sure if keeping Arthur and Merlin's murkier past deeds in consideration would be cynicism or simply keeping a more honest and rounded view of flesh and blood men instead of "can do no wrong" icons. Sweeping misdeeds of abetting rape and infanticide aside as being of no consequence opens rather interesting implications that persons designated as "heroes" will have their past deeds, no matter how heinous, justified and excused as part of the perks of being a hero.

I find it a little troubling to learn that in TGS Gorlois is deliberately fictionalized as a gargoyle clan murdering villian, as if that it would somehow make it more "okay" for Uther to rape the man's wife in the TGS universe. Legendary Gorlois wasn't a villian, only a victim of his king's adulterous lust for Igraine.

It makes a person wonder if this was done to exonerate Uther's crime by altering things so his victim was somehow "asking for it". It is frighteningly close to the age old rationalization of making crimes against someone "okay" if they are dehumanized and made "lesser" than the person who commits the crime against them.

*yawns*

I'd go on some more on the topic, but it's almost 3am and I'm sleepy now.

later
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Sunday, August 3, 2003 03:52:42 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

there's no particular reason for this, i just felt like saying it:

here's a list of the things i hate
1. poorly written and animated cartoons, for example ANY scooby doo.
2. speaking of scooby doo, i hate the way buffy ended.
3. the truth dot com commercials.
4. lisa marie presley.
5. anna nicole smith.
6. the question, "are you mad"?
7. feminazi's that could go to the amazon and make *those* women cry.
8. gay guys that are more feminine than the average house wife.
9. college teachers who bitch at you as if they forgot that you paid to go to that goddamn college.
10. firefighters. do not expect me to mourn them.
11. ignorant religious people. (wiccans, christians, pagans and so on).
12. people who find it absolutely necessary to use the words, "bling bling" in daily conversation.
13. my favorite of all, "i'm atheist, six six six man!" if you're atheist why would you even give a f**k about satan, and the numbers related to him? you should be shot immediately, with a 12 gauge, point blank.
14. people who feel the need to debate abortion. face it, wither you are for it or against it, you'll never change the other person's mind!
15. wanna be freaks, or goths. go put your "punk" clothes back on and shut the f**k up! go listen to the sex pistols.
16. ANY race or gender who feels like they are owed more than another.
17. women dressed in *dental floss* and have the nerve to give you an "eat shyt" look, if you appear to glance in their general direction. no one wants your crab infected snatch, whore!
18. the E.U.
19. giggle cream commercials (vice city thing).
20. the phrase, "that shyt's gangsta." usage of such a phrase should send you directly to hell without collecting 200 dollars.

and that's it for now.
JacKaL
ga, usa
Sunday, August 3, 2003 12:46:48 AM
IP: 205.188.209.12

TODD - You wrote: [I found nothing in the way of self-justification or dodging the issues on their part.]

Dodging of the issues is more of my feeling when they bring it up among themselves, particularly recently. Its not even so much a conscious thing; its more feeling that I get when they talk about the past or deal with people who have similar blood stained pasts.

The two of them don't come out and deny anything when dealing with Morgana; its more a tension that seems lacking from the scenes. I can accept this with Arthur but with Merlin its a completely different case. The tension of some sort of guilt on his part in particular seems lacking. I do hope though that as the poison in his system gets worse, he'll start to reflect more on Morgana and his role in her past and perhaps come to some epiphany.

You wrote: [For a start, the May Day Babies aren't an issue in Morgana's feud with Arthur]

True; I've said it before but her case against Arthur is pretty weak. Her problem is really with Merlin.

You wrote: [The Pendragon staff simply isn't all that cynical or snide]

Cynical is more my personal view having spent my entire life in NYC. I'm not saying that someone has to be wandering around making Arthur and Merlin's lives hell by constantly bringing up the facts but there are moments when it seems like something that should come up. I'm not complaining; its just how I happen to see things.

You wrote: [The fact is, the general attitude on the Breakdowns team was that, yes, Arthur and Merlin haven't had a perfect track record (but then, who has?), but the good things that they've done outweigh the bad.]

Haven't had a perfect track record is a bit of an understatement; but I'm not trying to say that they haven't done good or that they are evil characters pretending to be good. Its just that for all the good they do, they tend to deny the evil that they have done; and when they do recognize it they do so in a manner that feels more like they are just getting a bad feeling off their chest and then want to move on; it doesn't seem to effect or influence them. Its seems more like an inconvinence to them than something that should be having an influence.

You wrote: [The truth of the matter is, I think that you're simply projecting your own cynicism onto the series.]

Your probably right; sometimes I can be overly cynical without meaning to. I don't mean to complain or sound like I'm criticizing - that really isn't my intention. Its just that I personally don't dismiss the deeds of those characters so easily. I don't look at Merlin or Arthur as straight out heroic characters; I see (particularly for Arthur) very human characters that are well meaning and heroic leaning but who seem to be in denial.

You wrote: [As for Morgana, in view of her own track record (repeated attempts at assassination, working with criminals, setting up a gun-running ring, etc.), she's hardly in a position to throw stones at Arthur and Merlin.]

I'm not dismissing her crimes; I'm sorry if I give the impression that I do. She has the same issues to deal with as Merlin and Arthur do. For her there are things that I feel she can never be forgiven for either. I don't at all deny or want to minimize that.

But the feeling I get when she confronts Merlin isn't that he feel some sort of guilt towards her or that there is any sort of feeling hovering between her and him. Her words, even her presence don't even start any gears moving in the heads of the rest of the cast - they accept Arthur and Merlin one hundred percent. There isn't even doubt that maybe Morgana has a point. They don't have to start liking or agreeing with her on that; but I can't see them not thinking about what she has said.

You wrote: [Not to mention that Gorlois, her father, whom she's seeking to avenge, was no moral paragon himself, judging from this quote in "Twilight Falls" in Season Three of "Timedancer":]

I hadn't remembered that line; it does feel a bit as if it was thrown in to help make Gorlois much less sympathetic. Still just because he committed that evil, did his wife deserved to be raped by Uther with Merlin's help? No matter what he did and what kind of a person Gorlois was, Uther and Merlin were both completely in the wrong in what they did. This doesn't change their guilt one bit.

You wrote: [I think that the real reason why the issue isn't being addressed the way that you'd like it to be addressed is that the staff simply isn't especially cynical or seeking a cynical outlook for the series.]

Again, very true. Arthur might have been easier to write as a straight out hero if the staff didn't keep bringing up the questionable bits of his past. I understand that all this history was established for the TGS version of the character back in S1 but bringing it up just seems to emphasis the difference between the modern version and the legendary version. They really do conflict.

You wrote: [After all, why would she develop an antidote in the first place?]

On the one hand you do make a strong case for why she wouldn't make an antidote. After all the only reason she would need it is if she was just really paranoid about poisoning herself when she was creating it. But lets not forget that we have established that she's not a particularly stable or rational person when it comes to Merlin, Arthur, and her schemes. Otherwise she would have gone for this direct route at the very beginning of the series instead of starting with complicated convoluted schemes like the one she had in S3. Its possible she might have developed something or perhaps the antidote could be a side effect of the very creation of the poison. At the very least Arthur and the gang should try to invest some resources in trying to find out while they are at the same time exploring on the idea of finding the Grail. Why just assume that she wouldn't have a cure? Why not send a Knight or two, or perhaps a Squire that Morgana wants to like her to find out for sure?

You wrote: [I much prefer the case of "Long Way Till Morning" where Demona, after "poisoning" Elisa, lied about having a cure in order to lure Goliath to her.]

Demona does have the luxury of being a true immortal and doesn't have to worry about side effects. Morgana is only really a long lived mortal as opposed to an immortal. (Has it ever been explained how she has stayed alive all this time without regeneration being needed?)

Also at the time Demona poisoned Elisa she didn't have to worry about anyone she wanted to be alive accidentally get killed by the poison. Now that Angela is in the picture its seems good that she would be reluctant to use poison that has no antitode on the off chance that Angela might get poisoned. Morgana has the same worry except with Mary; she didn't want to kill her and Mary spends all her time with Merlin so it was a much greater possibility of happening than the Demona/Angela scenario I mentioned. It would make sense for her to on the one hand expose Mary to the possibility of getting poisoned if her assassin misses Merlin but on the other hand have an antidote available just in case. She is sort of a bit nuts after all.

LAIN - You wrote: [possibly because when most people think "hmm, lets see now.. king arthur" they think of knights, possibly round tables, fancy swords, sexy ladies.. and likely heroism.]

Its probably the cynical history student in me that is driving my views. My thoughts on Arthur don't immediately go in the same direction as everyone else would tend to go; rather than think about round tables and heroism, it heads more towards "A Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court".

You wrote: [lets face it, if you cant find your home state on a map.. OF AMERICA.. how much can you really be expected to know? o.O]

Maybe thats part of the problem; not only can I name all the states, I know the state capitals too. :-)

You wrote: [if you met king arthur tomorrow, would you honestly smack him and say "you dirty rotten baby-murdering bastard!"?]

Not if I just met him; but if I was in his inner circle as an advisor, then sure, why not tell him that? After all when you deal with a King, you have to give him the truth, as blunt as possible. If I was in their circle and at that council, I might bring up the idea that the Grail might be unrealistic to look for and that even if they find it what are the odds that a wife burning baby killer and the rape accessory could even come near it, let alone ask it for a favor? Not only that but why not mention to them that the odds are good that since they are dealing with some power beyond human understanding that it might not behave the way they want i.e. it might just cure Mary the Innocent and leave Merlin to rot in agony. Someone has to tell him the hard, blund, painful truth; sugar coating things for kings just tends to make problems.

You wrote: [maybe if they told EVERYONE they met who they were, they would run across more skeptics and cynics..]

But why is it that once they do introduce themselves the characters either aren't cynical or don't become slightly cynical? I had a lot of hope for Mary, the disillusioned english aristocrat teenager with a cold distant relationship with her father and under a curse, would be a little more skeptical and rebellious about everything. (In fact she was until Merlin became her boyfriend; why is it that getting a significant other dumbs people down so much? Is it just lack of energy from all the sex? :-) :-) )
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, August 3, 2003 12:45:06 AM
IP: 12.88.197.119

Fire Storm> <<Ah, great site! Just like Dennis Leary, only meaner>>: I'm essentially sponsoring my brother.
<<VI is the first UNIX text editor I have had the experience of learning>>: Ah, I can understand that. Emacs was my first.
<<Is it that obvious?>>: Only because I read it also. And then you drop a link within a day it was posted there.

Bud Clare> <<Evil. Evil. EVIL>>: Could you expand that?
<<is that she won't even let her family and friends call her by a shortened version>>: She shall henceforth be known as Johnny, by process of free association: GoVeg.com->Go->Five->Johnny Five->Johnny

Revel> <<a boring ride through swamp land and humidity of the southeast>>: All praise AC.

Lain> <<if you cant find your home state on a map.. OF AMERICA>>: Hey, Jersey is easy to find. It's just that no one really cares about all the ones in the middle.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Saturday, August 2, 2003 11:37:31 PM
IP: 68.37.214.185

LAIN - On behalf of the Pendragon staff, I'd like to thank you for your kind words.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 2, 2003 11:29:40 PM
IP: 171.75.244.197

...
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis
Saturday, August 2, 2003 11:29:04 PM
IP: 171.75.244.197

oh. and id also like to thank the pendragon staff for their very generous donation of excess angst. bad guys would be all.. y'know.. touchy-feely and stuff without it ;)
lain
Saturday, August 2, 2003 11:15:53 PM
IP: 65.93.84.201

One other note about Arthur and Merlin's past confrontations with Morgana, to answer one of Airwalker's charges. I went back and looked over the Pendragon stories in Seasons One and Three where Arthur and Merlin actually meet Morgana, and I found nothing in the way of self-justification or dodging the issues on their part.

For a start, the May Day Babies aren't an issue in Morgana's feud with Arthur, since Morgana isn't out to avenge them (none of them were her children, so while their deaths would have shocked her on the abstract level, it wouldn't have the personal matter that Gorlois's death, for example, did). Her feud is based on the fact that: a) Arthur's father killed her father (more accurately, one of his knights did it, but Morgana finds it easier to blame Uther since there's no way of telling now which of Uther's knights or foot-soldiers actually dealt Gorlois his death-blow) and forcibly married her mother, and b) Arthur killed her lover Accolon and (in a way) her daughter Morfydd.

However, neither of these is really a good, logical case against Arthur. Arthur hadn't been even born when Gorlois was slain, and charging him with the death is merely a Demona-level case of "Then the descendants must pay!" Accolon died because Morgana sent him into battle against Arthur, who slew him in self-defense; thus, Morgana is the one who bears greater responsibility for Accolon's death, in that if she hadn't sent him to kill Arthur, he wouldn't have died. Morfydd, likewise, died because of another assassination plot of Morgana's, which Morfydd was accessory to, backfiring. Morgana has a case against Merlin, but none against Arthur except via very twisted logic which you'd have to be revenge-ridden to accept.

Morgana has only met Merlin face to face twice in the modern-day part of the series. The first time was in "Quest's End" at the end of the first season, and on that occasion, Madoc was also there attempting to get revenge on Merlin first (and without the justification that Morgana had; Madoc's motive for revenge was that Merlin had refused to work for him), and his presence pretty much drove the Morgana feud to one side. On the second occasion, at the end of Season Three, Merlin runs into Morgana just after discovering that she's in the middle of a scheme that would have either assassinated the Royals or gotten them almost assassinated, as well as the general Connection business, and her current criminal behavior - and the urgent need to get to Buckingham Palace and foil the attack on the Royals - ensures that nobody else is liable to be giving any real thought to Merlin's assistance to Uther.

Therefore, in order to properly judge how penitent Merlin is towards Morgana, we'd have to have a situation where they met at a point where Morgana hasn't been engaging in skullduggery that threatens people whom she has no legitimate quarrel with and where no other adversaries of Merlin are present to upstage her feud. Which so far hasn't taken place in the series.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 2, 2003 11:14:58 PM
IP: 171.75.244.197

airwalker>> <<why is every 21st century person they meet able to skip over this and accept him as a pure heroic king?>> possibly because when most people think "hmm, lets see now.. king arthur" they think of knights, possibly round tables, fancy swords, sexy ladies.. and likely heroism. im pretty sure lots of people dont even know how king arthur died (lets face it, if you cant find your home state on a map.. OF AMERICA.. how much can you really be expected to know? o.O)
if you met king arthur tomorrow, would you honestly smack him and say "you dirty rotten baby-murdering bastard!"? or would you be shocked into thinking of something more.. civil?
.. plus.. what bud-clare said.
.. and lastly.. its not like theyre parading around with a big neon sign that says "KING ARTHUR AND MERLIN; OPEN FOR BASHING!!" maybe if they told EVERYONE they met who they were, they would run across more skeptics and cynics.. but that just isnt the case.

fire storm>> <<Oh, let me have a LITTLE fun!>> well.. *I* fell out of my chair and hurt myself i was laughing so hard. that was GREAT :D
lain
Saturday, August 2, 2003 10:37:56 PM
IP: 65.93.84.201

One other thing that I thought I'd mention here. The question was raised a while ago about why everybody is so certain that Morgana wouldn't have a cure for Merlin's poison. Actually, I think that it makes far better sense that she wouldn't have one, though.

After all, why would she develop an antidote in the first place? The whole point of the poison was to kill Merlin, and she obviously wouldn't want that prevented. If anything, she was doing everything that she could to make the poison so strong that nothing could cure it (short of the Holy Grail or something else divine, and that would have to be inevitable since there's no way that Morgana or any other human, halfling, faerie, gargoyle, or created being in general could bar the divine, which by its very nature is omnipotent). The only logical reason that she would have for wanting a cure would be if she had the fear that she might inadvertently expose herself to her poison in the process of making it, and I suspect that she would have had precautions against that.

(Actually, when you stop to think it over, the whole notion of the villain developing a cure or antidote to the poison that he used on the good guys is a particularly irrational cliche that presumably stems from the writers taking the easy way out of solving the problem; I much prefer the case of "Long Way Till Morning" where Demona, after "poisoning" Elisa, lied about having a cure in order to lure Goliath to her.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 2, 2003 10:10:50 PM
IP: 171.75.244.197

Getting ready for the great American Road trip. Well, not really, more like a boring ride through swamp land and humidity of the southeast.
I'm taking my mother's car instead of the War Wagon so all things should go well and appeasment has been made to the auto god. Should have a post sometime when I get settled in.

Green Barron- Don't make Lain mad, she bites. ;)

Not much else to say but wish me luck.
Revel - [samrx5@cs.com]
Travelin' Man, USA
Saturday, August 2, 2003 08:35:02 PM
IP: 172.164.33.33

Greg Bishansy: <Oh, and nobody listen to Fire Storm>
Oh, let me have a LITTLE fun!
FIre Storm
Saturday, August 2, 2003 07:26:35 PM
IP: 66.72.178.104

AIRWALKER - I think that the two leading reasons why we haven't taken the cynical approach towards Arthur and Merlin that you want us to take are:

1. The Pendragon staff simply isn't all that cynical or snide (at least, I and Ed Reynolds - who did almost all of the work this season - aren't), and

2. "Gargoyles" (which "Pendragon" is a spin-off of) wasn't a cynical series.

The fact is, the general attitude on the Breakdowns team was that, yes, Arthur and Merlin haven't had a perfect track record (but then, who has?), but the good things that they've done outweigh the bad. The series certainly took the same stance on them in how they get described in the televised episodes, particularly "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" (not to mention Greg's comments on the Arthurian portion of the Gargoyles Universe at "Ask Greg"). The truth of the matter is, I think that you're simply projecting your own cynicism onto the series.

As for Morgana, in view of her own track record (repeated attempts at assassination, working with criminals, setting up a gun-running ring, etc.), she's hardly in a position to throw stones at Arthur and Merlin. Arthur ordered the drowning of some babies 1500 years ago and Merlin reluctantly helped Uther seduce Morgana's mother a little before that, but Morgana has armed violent terrorists very recently, and ones who have endangered other people's lives.

Not to mention that Gorlois, her father, whom she's seeking to avenge, was no moral paragon himself, judging from this quote in "Twilight Falls" in Season Three of "Timedancer":

<<A gargoyle clan had dwelt [at Tintagel] for several centuries, one of the most prosperous in all Britain, from what we could learn of it. Then, scarcely three months ago, young Duke Gorlois came upon them by the day, and destroyed them all. Not even the hatchlings or the eggs were spared. And even now, he is building a castle for himself over the remains of the beings that he so brutally murdered.>>

Once again, I think that the real reason why the issue isn't being addressed the way that you'd like it to be addressed is that the staff simply isn't especially cynical or seeking a cynical outlook for the series. It's mainly a matter of our world-view being different from yours, I suppose.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 2, 2003 06:49:21 PM
IP: 171.75.244.197

Airwalker> <<why is every 21st century person they meet able to skip over this and accept him as a pure heroic king?>>
Because it was a long time ago, probably. It shouldn't matter, but it does. It's easier to care about a recent massacre than one that took place 1000+ years ago. It's a difficult length of time for mortals to wrap their minds around. I can understand them overlooking it most of the time, but someone should say something about it at some point. It may be more difficult to get upset over something that happened so long ago, but it's far from impossible. Maybe they'll visit the place where it happened (the place where they left shore, anyway), which ought to both make Arthur feel guilty and give the younger people a bit of a kick in their complacency. Maybe actually being there would make them realize that it's not just some interesting fairytale, that real lives were lost for very little reason.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, August 2, 2003 04:22:49 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

KAIOTO - You wrote: [So, we agree then, that the principle of the matter is not that Arthur and Merlin have done wrong - but that Arthur and Merlin do not seem truly penatent for their past misdeeds from what we have seen of their characters in Pendragon, correct?]

In terms of the Grail, yes I agree that largely what would keep them from reaching it (or not being punished by it when they do get to it) is that have failed to be truely penatent or even really recognize that they have to be penatent. They seem to be in denial which is something that the Grail wouldn't be happy about.

(In general though I feel that the problem is that the crimes they have committed can never completely be forgiven in this life; they can try, they can truely acknowledge what they have done wrong, they can try to do penance for it but forgiveness is impossible. And I think that the problem is that in reaching the Grail, its almost like implying that they can and are being forgiven, that they have reached a point where they can forget about the past and move on, that they have done enough. I think that considering the crimes, the Grail should be beyond them. But thats my view; the Grail seems to have a much, much lower standard.)

You wrote: [Arthur and Merlin try to excuse and absolve themselves rationalizing. People do that all the time.]

Its not them trying to rationalize and absolve themselves that I have a problem with; I can easily accept that as Human nature on their part. The thing isn't that they are doing it or even that most of their friends let them get away with it (I can accept that considering this bunch that Arthur has gathered around himself - Mary has a thing for Merlin, Rory is a former theif who'd have a harder time coming to Arthur with a moral argument, Griff is devoted to the idea of classical Knighthood that would keep him from asking deep questions, etc.) but that they get away with it completely. They are heroic characters in a story and all this seems to be done just to keep them largely heroic; it keeps them from developing by tackling the issue or alternately helps lead to a jump in logic later on to forgive them and move on from it to keep them heroic.

They don't have to answer deep questions about it to anyone, they don't have to live with the guilt; all they do is bring it up from time to time and then move on like nothing happened. Why is it that only one deranged crackpot (Morgana) is the only one who can ever say anything about that in the episodes? Why aren't their arguments over this? Why is it that once a person accepts them as King Arthur and Merlin, everyone suddenly become friends, who completely accept them and ignore the dark pasts? Where are the skeptic cynics who question them and force them to deal with what they have done?

Everyone who mentions something or expects something to be done in relation to it is dismissed as a villain or crackpot. (Its really only Morgana and she has clear mental problems but she also does have a bit of a point; aside from her nobody wants to bring up the points she does. Merlin and Arthur have guilt; why is every 21st century person they meet able to skip over this and accept him as a pure heroic king?)

You wrote: [What the Knights need to come to grips with is that - all - the Trials of the Grail Quest are trials of character, bringing one on a spiritual journey towards the holiness that the Grail symbolizes.]

But how can Arthur and Merlin even reach the point where they acknowledge that they have done truely evil things that they might not be able to be forgiven for? All they do is wander around with their yes men who tend to be in awe of them or in deep trust of their judgement. How are they able to start to repent if they can't see the truth and nobody around them will help them see it? God, they need someone making snide jokes and cynical comments that will make them think. They don't think and tend to make leaps in logic. Until they start to think, the Grail is unattainable.

SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [I feel Demona’s presense here is just a teaser. I have an inkling that she will make another appearance in the future.]

She might; the problem wasn't that she showed up, its that there was no buildup to it. She just popped in, did her thing, and left. Thats why it felt a little tacked on to me; if she shows up in the future, then there should be some line or paragraph in the stories before it implying that something is going to happen.

You wrote: [You don’t think Demona is capable of this? She did it to her self once. “If I must beat this lesson into you then so be it.”]

She wasn't behaving with an air of contempt for herself or even for Goliath at that point; if anything, I think that she sounded a bit shaken and desperate to get her past self to agree with her. And from the point that she tells her past self "I am what you will become", Modern Demona was pretty calm; even when her younger self attacked her, she didn't get angry. Her tone of voice changed when she was about to beat herself up but her mood wasn't different and she didn't start off on some rant about it.

You wrote: [And from Awakening She was about to lash against the Princes for her coments about not letting beats into the dining hall.]

Its questionable if she was going to do anything or if her behavior was just to intimidate and scare Katharine. I lean towards it just being intimidation tactics; she is in a room full of armed men and completely surrounded. She isn't going to do anything so stupid as attack the Princess just like that.

LURKING ECHO - You wrote: [I wonder if any of the more peripheral characters, like the London Clan or the Banshee (who seems to have inexplicably disappeared) will show up this season]

Well if the Grail can move around (and seems to be following Arthur around for some reason; why him and not some other Grail enthusiast?) then the London and Caledonian Clans can easily be used. But the impression I got is that this season PENDRAGON is going to focus largely on the Human cast. While I don't mind that, I hope that the Clans have more of a presence, like they have in the other seasons; I know that this series is TGS PENDRAGON and so should have an Arthur bent but its still TGS and should have an equal Gargoyle presence.

(I just like the Clan characters and would like to see much more of them; its a shame that Brianna is left to sit around the London Estate and do nothing when the only reason she is there is to be with her mate and could easily be travelling with him right now. Griff is already slowing Arthur down so would it make a big difference if its one Gargoyle doing it or two?)

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [I tend to think Xanatos was portrayed a little too "good" in the series, and would like to correct that a bit. I don't plan for him to do a complete 180 on us, but Xanatos will be doing a bit more scheming.]

I don't think he's been portrayed in TGS so much as good as much as it is not very busy doing anything in particular and excessively forgiven for his 1994-1996 past. (Even the Mutates don't have a problem with him. Thats just way too soon if even at all possible.) I hope we see more scheming; the last 3 seasons of Main TGS had him have too much time on his hands. But whats he going to scheme about? He got an immortality spell way back in Season 2 and that was one of the major motivations behind his movements. (Not the only one but a major one still.)

You wrote: [While the movie was terrible (if I ever see Michael Eisner, I'm demanding my $9.00 back)]

I waited to see the movie on ABC; all I can say is that I liked it better the first time, when it was called NADIA: THE SECRET OF BLUE WATER.

You wrote: [Though Andrea herself is a lesbian (there was a big clue to this in a season 2 story)]

I remember the clue; I wasn't sure though if the staff was going to ever go with it or not. It was such a long time ago after all.

Is TGS planning to do anything with the clues that Andrea's missing sister was one of the CITY OF STONE statues Demona destroyed?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, August 2, 2003 03:34:05 PM
IP: 12.88.199.41

dezi>> <<**FROM THE ASK GREG ARCHIVE***
Gipdac writes...
What is Fiona Canmores' twin brother/Charles Canmores father/Jason, Robyn, Jon's grandfather's name?

Greg responds...

Ugh. I'm fairly certain that Fiona's twin brother is named Jackson. But I've charted so many Canmores that I get confused sometimes, and I don't have that chart with me. I can't remember for sure. Ask me again later.

(But I'm pretty sure that Jackson is Fiona's twin brother. That Jackson was the father of Aron who was the father of Charles who was the father of Jason, Robyn & Jon. And I know Fiona's great-grandfather was Angus.)

so.. thats WHO she is. you might want to check out the original ask greg archive (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.html... or click on my name) and look under the subheadings "team atlantis" and "hunters" (from whence the above came). i would reccommend starting at the bottom of the pages, since the most recent questions answered are on top, and those are sometimes based on previously answered stuff.
the character of fiona canmore is based entirely (at this point) on revelations from "ask greg" and the script that some people have heard from "the last" team atlantis ep. she hasnt actually appeared in anything... yet.. ;)
lain - [<<-- ask greg]
Saturday, August 2, 2003 03:33:49 PM
IP: 65.93.84.201

DEZI> While the movie was terrible (if I ever see Michael Eisner, I'm demanding my $9.00 back), I think the series had potential. It certainly had a great team behind it.

As for "THE LAST", it was performed as the Radio Play for Gathering 2002, and the script and voice-tape has been auctioned off at the last two Gatherings. The hightlights of the story being the appearance of Demona (voiced again by Marina Sirtis) and Fiona Canmore (voiced by Sheena Easton).

Oh, and nobody listen to Fire Storm, in TGS, Demona and Andrea are NOT lesbian lovers. Never were, never will be. Though Andrea herself is a lesbian (there was a big clue to this in a season 2 story), I doubt that will be much of an issue in future stories, if at all. So, apologies to all Madame Destine fans who expect to see them get together in TGS, not happening ;)
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, August 2, 2003 12:14:46 PM
IP: 216.179.1.9

LM> Those beta pages have been around for a while now. Have you received enough votes to start implementing the changes?
Vash
Saturday, August 2, 2003 12:09:45 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Thanks, where can I read the Team Atlantis thing? Man, now I'm really wishing they had made that thing into a series. :(

Firestorm: Ha! Good one!
Dezi
Saturday, August 2, 2003 10:34:05 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

***** TGS EPISODE ARCHIVE UPDATE *****

Publication dates have been added to the episode archives for season 1 of each TGS series. Additionally, several publication dates for seasons 2 of each series have been revised. Thanks to Alan Waltrip and DPH for the airing dates.

***** END TGS EPISODE ARCHIVE UPDATE *****

***** TGS CR INFO UPDATES *****

ARCHIVE:

The 2003 Archive has been updated to include the weeks of May 11, 2003 through August 19, 2003 for a total of 7 newly added weeks. The timeline has also been revised and features only highlights of important events pertaining to the development of the forum or CR information.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/2003/
>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/timeline.html

BETA PAGES, OTHER IMAGES, POLLS:

Speaking of the development of the forum, the Polls Archive has been removed. The lists of New Images, Cut Images and images as the result of met CR pic requests (all of which were previously located in the Other Images directory) have been combined with the Beta Pages to form the Development section of CR Information. This material can be found at the following link.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/other/

Navigation throughout the CR Info area has been revised to reflect the aforementioned changes.

MET PIC REQUESTS:

Five CR pic requests have been fulfilled: Chiang Yun, Desdemona, Mei Hsing, Othello, and more images of London Clan members. More images involving London Clan members will be added at a later date.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/request_list.html
>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/requests.html

CR MEMBERS:

Last but not least, DPH's profile and Heather's profile have been revised! The statistics pages have been updated accordingly.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/members/profiles/

***** END TGS CR INFO UPDATES *****
Lady Mystic - [<-- Updated !!]
Head Admin of TGS CR Information
Saturday, August 2, 2003 05:58:09 AM
IP: 66.72.178.104

I haven't been chased off. Just busy and all, as I leave on Wednesday and I see Lain Wednesday night or Thursday morning.

I don't know if you got my last e-mail, but I got a Southwest to Buffallo and will hopefully catch a Greyhound that will take me to London by 1050. Where's a good place to exchange currency, and could you e-mail me your numebr so I can call you when I know the time I'll be arriving in London? Right now, I'd like to say it's 10:50, but just in case that changes, I woudl want to tell you, as a proper guest would.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Hanau, Germany
Saturday, August 2, 2003 05:06:43 AM
IP: 140.156.6.2

Gside> <<What have you got against emacs? Too big?>>
Evil. Evil. EVIL!!!!

<<"You ate of my flesh and drank of my blood. Now it's my turn." Such a wrong idea that has so much potential.>>
*L* Now I wanna see...
___________________________________
Fire Storm> <>
The worst part, to my mind, is that she won't even let her family and friends call her by a shortened version. wtf? They should punish her by forcing her to call them by even longer names.

<<And I just thought this link was cool.>>
That _is_ cool. I want one.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, August 2, 2003 03:56:25 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Gside: <And I know I've been across a place with something similar as a subsection>
Ah, great site! Just like Dennis Leary, only meaner!
<Essentially. What have you got against emacs? Too big?>
It's not the size that matters, its...
Um...
You always love your first the most... no, wait... she was...
OK! OK!. Wait. I got it...
VI is the first UNIX text editor I have had the experience of learning, and I'll be damned if I'll have to learn yet ANOTHER text editor.
<You've been reading Kung Fool?>
Is it that obvious?

Greg/Dezi: <As for what she has to do with TGS, you'll just have to wait and see>
Well, if you don't want to wait...

*** SPOILERS! ***

Ok, Fiona Canmore is the great-gandmother of Andrea, Demona's lover (Andrea's father was a black sheep in the family. Racially/specially tolerant, basically a hippy... which explains Andrea's alternative and artistic lifestyle). SO, point one, is that Demona/Dominique is basically in love with a Hunter.

Bonnieway, Fiona followed Demona to Atlantis (Demona was shopping for something in Atlantis for a recipe. A normal FOOD recipe.), and thinking that Demona was trying to get something to kill humans, Fiona tried to kill Demona... which pissed Demona off (she dropped her spices in a pool of water. SO there was a battle between the two and the dome of Atlantis got cracked, and bad things started to happen. BUT the citizens of Atlantis were able to fix it, and all was good.

But how does this tie in to the current threads? WELL, at the latest meeting of the Gargoyles World Council (where Demona attends largely because of her new business aspect to the whole gargoyle/human issue), a few of the Atlantis clan comes to demand that Demona be handed over to them so she can be tried for the damage caused to the dome (they weren't able to completely repair the damage before and they are unable to repair it any more, so the city is about to be destroyed). Demona, feeling bad about what she did to the dome, agrees to go to Atlantis for the trial, but Goliath says no and the trial is held a week after the meeting is done. In the end, Demona agrees to help the people of Atlantis make complete repairs to the dome, and in return, Demona gets access to Atlantis magic and tech, which she uses to help herself get back Nightstone.

This is a three part episode.

*** END (oh, I so hope these really aren't) SPOILERS! ***
Fire Storm
Saturday, August 2, 2003 03:54:03 AM
IP: 208.143.21.10

DEZI> Fiona is Fiona Canmore. She was a Hunter and hunted Demona in Paris in 1920 in the written and voice recorded but never animated episode "The Last" for the dead TEAM ATLANTIS series.

As for what she has to do with TGS, you'll just have to wait and see. That is, if we were planning on making use of her.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, August 2, 2003 02:20:43 AM
IP: 216.179.5.131

Wow, I'm on a posting roll. Sorry for the double (although it is technically tomorrow since my last post). But- Who is Fiona? Just a brief bio or a reference to a specific story/episode would help. I've been bouncing my brains around trying to figure it out and I just...can't. Ugh!
Dezi
Saturday, August 2, 2003 01:19:23 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Fire Storm> <<There is a GoVeg.com, why not StayMeat.com?>>: There probably is, just not with that domain. And I know I've been across a place with something similar as a subsection, but can't rember where. Ah, found it: http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html and http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html
<<let me get this straight: Not only can I secure telnet into the GFW, BUT I also get to use VI>>: Essentially. What have you got against emacs? Too big?
<<Definitely! I miss him>>: Don't we all?

Dezi> <<since I was left off of Spacie's list>>: It doesn't really mean much more than that you're not yet an old timer.
<<Are you going to legally change your name for the cause?>>: I like my name. Especialy my last name.

Spacebabie> <>: but since he's not saying anything, he should be listed.
<<thouse were the musketeers not the Knights of the round table>>: But there was still a comraderie thing going on.

Greg> <<a zombie Jesus rising from the grave to feast upon the flesh of the living?>>: "You ate of my flesh and drank of my blood. Now it's my turn." Such a wrong idea that has so much potential.

Fire Storm> <>: You've been reading Kung Fool?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Saturday, August 2, 2003 01:09:35 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Well this is a bit late since I had to spend the week preparing for a meeting, but here goes:

TGS: "Choices Part2"> I agree with Airwalker that Duval's speech should not have reverted to the stilted medieval tongue (and if we want to be picky, shouldn't Arthur be speaking in Old English anyway?). I also agree that Mary should not suddenly lose her confidence just because she's been made a squire. And what does that even mean to her, anyway? She hasn't been given any new responsibilities to go with her title. In fact, I was surprised when she told Merlin that she would abandon Arthur to live with him in NY (doesn't she realize she has a duty to Arthur now?). I was also surprised that she used the guilt tactic on Merlin when he was considering helping Demona, especially since it came out sounding rather selfish ("...you know that both Arthur and I would be on the casualty list if she succeeded." So in other words, she's reminding Merlin that their lives are worth more than his?). I was also surprised that Mary was versed well enough in Greek mythology that she spontaneously came up with a reference to Atlas.

As for their travel problems, why don't they go back to Avalon and borrow another skiff? Actually, any boat sailing from Avalon should do the trick, right? (I'm grateful the staff hasn't picked this route (yet?), but it should have at least come up during the knights' discussion). Otherwise, Mary shouldn't be that big of a problem, as long as they time the flights/drive correctly (or take multiple stops). They can also ship Griff in a crate while he's sleeping (it worked for Thailog). Though if the old knights never had to leave Britain for their quests, this might not even be an issue.

One scene I'd like to focus on is Duval's talk with Arthur at the beginning of the fic. I like how halfway through his speech, Duval stops to comment, "Please, don’t start like that, Arthur." LOL, I can just imagine the face Arthur must be making! But I don't like how he keeps referring to Mary as 'the werewolf'. It was enough to mention it the first time to alert Arthur that he knew all about his companions. But why keep bringing attention to the fact? Was he trying to remind Arthur that she was a liability? Though I think this tactic could have cost Duval a few points in the trust department, since it also brings attention to the fact that Mary is a desirable specimen for his own company's laboratories. That should have made Arthur a bit more cautious in dealing with the man. Also, given their suspicions and Duval's reputation, I'm surprised Merlin didn't mutter any snide remarks when Duval mentioned Merlin having helped him on several occasions (something like, "I should have left you bleeding on that field", or whatever). Finally, it must be strange for Duval to have to recognize that Arthur has now surrounded himself with a new group of knights, of which Duval is no longer a member. Is he a bit envious of them, I wonder?

I liked the flashback to Bohr's trials, the possible reference to Fiona, the idea of a teleporting Grail, and the knights' arguments for/against the Illuminati's aid. I also appreciated how both Merlin and Arthur's decisions were tied to a common theme--doing what was morally right. And I'm glad the knights brought up how tenuous Duval's promise of noninterference was, when in the past, he hadn't been able to control his underlings. This was a point I'd noticed myself, so I'm glad it was touched upon.
Vashkoda
Saturday, August 2, 2003 01:06:12 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Niamhgold: <illegal cable> At my apartment in Chicago, the people who lived there before us had either cable internet or cable tv, and when they moved out, they stopped the bill, so we never got a bill, but the cable was never disconnected. We just plugged the tv in on the first nite, on a whim, and weeeeee! over a year of absolutely free cable! Of course, you can't call in and complain whenever your favorite channel goes out... :( I miss it, I want it back!....

Spacebabie: <Charmander?> no it was green on its back with a peach/off-white tummy. Kinda looked like an alligator. Isn't charmander red? Or is that Charmeleon?
 Ugh. That'll give you nitemares worse that Beetlejuice AND the Gremlins AND those aliens with the big eyes (greys). Unless it was Madoc sending a rabid horde of Gremlins and Greys after you with Beetlejuice cackling in the background. Ewwww.

Namechanges- I read an article once, years ago, about weird requests judges get for legal name changes. One was of a little girl whose crack-head mom named Cocaina, and her grandmother, the legal guardian wanted to change. The other was of a guy who wanted to rename himself God. The judge asked why. The guy said, "Because I am God." Request denied. And then there was that teacher that changed her name to Obi Wan Kenobi as part of a radio contest before Episode One premiered...

Dezi
Saturday, August 2, 2003 12:23:13 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Dezi: <Are you going to legally change your name for the cause?>
Yeah. That was fresh in my mind when I wrote that post.

Spacebabie: <Uh thouse were the musketeers not the Knights of the round table>
I thought the knights had something like that too.

I think that is absolutely ridiculous! I mean, sure it's nice that you believe in a cause that much, but come on! I bet she doesn't keep it for more than a few years.

Greg Bishansky: <Dammit, you just killed a story idea I had for a future season>
ROFL!
I would *LOVE* to read a story like that!

And I just thought this link was cool.
Fire Storm
Saturday, August 2, 2003 12:01:07 AM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Spacebabie: You probably will, since we're working on Seaworld Orlando. But that's, of course, given that Seaworld accepts our company's bid ;) (though they did choose us last year, as I hear)
Niamhgold
Friday, August 1, 2003 09:11:42 PM
IP: 67.74.232.102

BISHANSKY - You're definitely scaring me now.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 1, 2003 08:26:00 PM
IP: 171.75.194.4

TODD> <<And then there's that oddball book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" (or something like that) which claims that the Grail was actually the descendants of a secret marriage between Jesus and Mary Magdalene (which interpretation obviously will NOT be appearing in TGS anywhere).>>

Dammit, you just killed a story idea I had for a future season. You know, the one I mentioned a while back about a zombie Jesus rising from the grave to feast upon the flesh of the living? It would have been a great story too ;)

Damn, I watch way too much "Family Guy"
Greg Bishansky
Friday, August 1, 2003 08:11:18 PM
IP: 216.179.6.92

Technically speaking, the Grail originated as a purely Arthurian object without any connections to Jesus or events in the New Testament; in its earliest appearance, "Perceval" by Chretien de Troyes, it's merely a mysterious wonder-working object. It wasn't until some years later when other writers began identifying it with the cup of the Last Supper, for example. (One of the first was Robert de Boron, who also introduced the Sword in the Stone - at least, he's the earliest extant Arthurian writer to mention it.)

Ironically, some treatments of the Grail nowadays focus on its links to Christianity while omitting or minimalizing its links to the Arthurian cycle. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" is one such story - it has three knights who find the Grail during the medieval period, but these are, not Galahad, Percival, and Bors, but knights from one of the Crusades. And then there's that oddball book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" (or something like that) which claims that the Grail was actually the descendants of a secret marriage between Jesus and Mary Magdalene (which interpretation obviously will NOT be appearing in TGS anywhere).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 1, 2003 08:01:43 PM
IP: 171.75.194.4

Two more days till My Revy arrives

I got this link from Jen “Crzydemona”;s LJ

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030731/ap_on_re_us/she_s_goveg_2

I love the person that mentioned she needed to get a life.

Grail and God>>>I think it has to do with the term "Holy" in the Holy Grail...it was probably a reason why the changed the name of the Holgy Grail in SailorMoon Super

Wow…Plenty of posts since my last one.

Yay stuff to reply too!

Lain<<<tood?>>>heh this is due to the fact that I typed in my response directly in the cr comment box and not on my MS Works…that and I call him “The Todd Dude” off line<<<dont forget all the people whove been chased out with pitchforks and pre-lit torches..>>>Naw most left on their own…The only ones that were chased off were Rene, Satan, Gregx’s shizo stalker and Doug and his blow-up doll.<<<well :P~ to you then! ;) >>>You have posted in the last month…I’m talking about those who rarely post.<<<juuust you wait>>>I don’t wanna wait

Andrea<<<which was about the revelation that Arthur & te knights of the round table were all flamning homosexuals>>>Now I have an urge to re-read Christine’s last dissidents fic.

Gside<<<How could anyone forget Wilek? >>>I know he’s lurking

Firestorm<<<Scary, isn't it? >>>Just a bit<<<"All for 1, 1 for all"... >>>Uh thouse were the musketeers not the Knights of the round table.<<<Why not? There is a GoVeg.com, why not StayMeat.com? >>>I think you will find this link interesting.

Mooncat<<<ooooooooooooo>>>I’m in the mood for spagehttios…WITH MEAT

GregX…Yay you posted<<<He's such a fun character to write>>>That is true…The same can be said for Demmie, Thailog…and Brooklyn.

Dezi<<>>You are a Reg…I meant to post about those who haven’t posted in a while<<<at my last look of it before the doors shut, it looked like a pokemon (some lizard looking one- dunno which>>>Charmander?<<<So, hee hee, TGS made it into a dream of mine.>>>I once dreamt about the unseelies<<<Watch the pretty cars go in cirles! Weeee! Pass a beer.>>>Watch the shirt shooter girls kill Maude Flanders<<<She seems to be a very bored individual. >>>More like troubled.<<<Are you going to legally change your name for the cause?>>>Check da Link!

Kaioto<<<Theory is just that. Theory. >>>Sings “I have a Theory”<<>>I think so too<<<On the other hand, I like that Greg gives us at least the bait that there is Something out there even greater than the Fey>>>Yeah me!

Niahmgold<<<It's Seaworld's Xmas promotions, now!>>>I’m get to see that too. Is it all the Seaworlds?

Back to Ficcing
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Friday, August 1, 2003 06:01:15 PM
IP: 4.72.74.90

kaioto>> is there something wrong with you today? youre agreeing with me..
*suspicious face* who are you, and what have you done with the REAL kaioto!?
.. and how long can you STAY?!
;)
lain
Friday, August 1, 2003 03:45:47 PM
IP: 65.93.84.201

Lain >> Definitely. The "Gargoyles" Arthur seems to be more designed after the Arthurian Romances (from which we get the Quest for the Holy Grail, the affair of Lancelot, the Fall of Camelot, and Arthur's eventual departure to Avalon) than a 5th century post-roman war-leader who fought Saxons and Picts and died undocumented in a ditch somewhere.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Friday, August 1, 2003 03:34:07 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Mecord >> The Holy Grail. Was it the cup Christ used at the Last Supper? Was it the chalice in which His blood was collected? I couldn't say for sure. I doubt anyone could. Whether it was or not is pretty much irrelevant. That cup was not the "Cup of Christ" in any way other than it happened to be there when Jesus made the New Covenant. I suspect it is likely another very mundane relic indeed.

You find the true "Cup of Christ" mentioned when Jesus goes to pray at the Garden of Gesemane later. Jesus stands on the eve of his betrayal and death, fully away of the humiliation, betray, torture, and murder that looms over Him. He asks God if this "cup" can be taken away from him.

That "cup" is the Way of the Cross - Jesus's role of Paschal Sacrifice. That "cup" is the covenant of sacrifice for the redemption of the human race. That is the "Cup of Christ" which sharing in is supposed to bring salvation.

In that respect, the Holy Grail is very much the Cup of Christ. Only by walking the hard, purifying road of sacrifice for others - can a person "achieve the Holy Grail." It is the same thing as drinking from the Cup of Christ. Only by walking the Way of the Cross can one truly be said to have drunk from the Cup and Christ and shared in His blood. It is all about achieving the holy state of being through personal sacrifice.

As for the fact that it keeps appearing in Churches and Monestaries, I suspect it does so for two reasons.

1.) Much holiness gets concentrated in these places in memory of the Way of the Cross (something that has a great affinity for the Grail Quest).

2.) Arthur and most of his band identify with the Christian perception of the Holy Grail. In that respect, the Grail should likely choose to place itself in places they will recognize plainly as holy. If it had merely barred Arthur or Lancelot from some place they didn't recognize as Holy, it wouldn't have been symbolic enough.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Friday, August 1, 2003 03:30:24 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

in "pendragon" when arthur first comes to Britain and finds himself a church, he says, "a church? locked? how can i stand vigil if i cannot get in?" somehow.. "standing vigil in a church" does not seem to me to be UNchristian.. at all.
i had always thought that the gargs universe arthur WAS christian.. for this very reason. i think its pretty obvious that the legend of arthur has pre-christian roots - but the arthur of the gargs universe is definately not sharing them.
lain - [<< fun grail linky]
Friday, August 1, 2003 03:24:15 PM
IP: 65.93.84.201

Odd, I don't remember picking any image for my post.
Mecord
Friday, August 1, 2003 02:42:48 PM
IP: 12.255.15.248

Grail and God: *chuckles* See, this is exactly what I meant when I said I was curious as to how the TGS staff deals with the Grail. It certainly didn't take long for people to jump up and anounce that the Gargoyles Universe is not Christian. Or as Greg said "All things are true". he and Kaioto raised good points and I agree with them. But what intrests me is the "How it is true". The Grail story in Arthurian legend may only be Christian because the monks who wrote the legend down wanted it that way. In fact since there is little Biblical evidence of a Grail, it's origins may be something else entirely and later adopted symbolically by the early Christians. It certainly makes sense since to obtain it one's moral fiber has to be tested and true. Basically what I'm getting at is that so far the stories don't give us any indication that the Grail is not in fact the Cup of Christ that it is popularly believed to be. Every place they search for it is a monastary or cathedral. The end to Changes part 2, Duval's memory of the quest in part one, and even Arthur's memory of his knights' account all include some kind of a church that is presumably Christian. So how is the TGS staff going to deal with these issues? What I'm afraid of is that they won't deal with them at all. They could just sidestep it and leave it open to audience interpretation. However, I don't believe they will. I give them enough credit to believe they discussed and found solutions to these issues. Therefore, with a touch of irony, we have to show faith in the TGS staff.

that's all for now.
later
Mecord
Friday, August 1, 2003 02:41:33 PM
IP: 12.255.15.248

Dezi: <My illegal cable tv disappeared> Oh, no! I have illegal cable, too, and every few weeks I get nervous that I'm going to lose it. Just as long as it holds for another month--then I'll be moving back to housing where cable's included in the rent ;)

Working so much...must return to the grind. It's Seaworld's Xmas promotions, now!

Wheeeeee! (And welcome back Dezi/Mec!)
Niamhgold
Friday, August 1, 2003 02:15:23 PM
IP: 146.145.186.33

Mecord >>

<< So yeah, I think he started to feel a little remorse at that point, though he may never admit it. So after the remorse he changed his conduct towards the gargoyles and began recompense by giving them back their ancestral home. So here at least I beleive that we should give Xanatos credit enough to say he repented in that one thing. >>

[KAI] I'll just note here that specifically, that was the only thing - I - ever claimed Xanatos repented. As I said before, in no way have Xanatos decided to walk the straight and narrow. :)

re: The Grail and God >>

<>

[KAI] Very true. Arthurian myth makes the Grail out to be a Christian artifact, but that hardly means that all the dogmatic interpretations of Christianity are suddenly true and factual history of the universe. Even the historical existance of Biblical events and people doesn't mean that all the accounts and interpretations are suddenly factual. It confers a grounding in the universe's reality, not a sudden infallibility.

Theory is just that. Theory.

And I think GregX's choices of Greg Weisman quotes here is excellent.

Greg Weisman gives us a universe for Gargoyles so littered with the supernatural, making skepticism of Theism based on a disbelief in the supernatural just plain wrong-headed. On the other hand, Greg gives us a universe where he purposefully avoid putting boundaries and definitions to the "Higher Power" thusly avoiding being confined to one particular religion or philosophy's interpretations or dogma - including Christianity.

On the other hand, I like that Greg gives us at least the bait that there is Something out there even greater than the Fey. The food-chain of the universe doesn't cap out at Odin or Oberon, which is a darn good thing for the universe's sake if you ask me. :)
Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Friday, August 1, 2003 01:18:11 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

MECORD> <>

I disagree. I don't plan to get into a debate here, but just because the Grail exists doesn't make the universe "Christian", and it's really not.

1. The Grail has far more ties to the Arthur Legend than Christianity.
2. ALL things are true.

Greg Weisman would have gotten to the Grail eventually in the series, and the show was definetly not a "Christian Universe" it was an "all things are true" universe. Like TGS is trying to be.

Or just take things as you will. But I also don't think you're going to see any purely objective evidence in the series, ever.

That being said, a few years back, Greg Weisman was asked a few questions on that... I'll reprint them here.

***

Sapphire writes...
The majority of the world's people believe in a creator, from the Semetic peoples of the middle east to the indigious peoples of the Americas. I was wondering in the gargoyles universe is the god that the Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship a fay or is he truely the god of the universe?

Greg responds...

God. The one true God of the Universe is not, in my mind, a fey. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm going to equate him with the God of Abrahamic trio of religions either. I'm looking for something bigger still. Something that includes but is not limited by those faiths.

Just my opinion, mind you.

Anonymous writes...
Is the supreme God of the gargoyles universe something like the Source of the DCU?

Greg responds...

I don't know what the Source is. But I will say (again) that I'm not going to define GOD in the Gargoyles Universe. I don't want to name Him, define Him or give Him limits. I'm not even fully comfortable with using the pronoun "Him".

***

I'll just end this post with one last quote of his.

"What I believe I've always said about the show is that whatever you believe created OUR universe also created the garg universe. If that's one or more of the above (plus or minus) something else, fine. - Greg Weisman
Greg Bishansky
Friday, August 1, 2003 12:58:45 PM
IP: 216.179.5.114

Ok since I was left off of Spacie's list, I figured it was time to post. And post more than just some link. *fake pouts* :)

I had a dream last night where this creature was trapped on the fifth floor of this building that was important to me (work space?). It was a savage evil beast but too stupid to figure out elevators, and there seemed to be no stairwells. Anyway, we all made it to the elevators in time and the beast rammed into the door as we were being taken to safety. Here's the weird part: at my last look of it before the doors shut, it looked like a pokemon (some lizard looking one- dunno which) but when I got home and told Brandon about it, he wanted to see what it looked like so I brought up the TGS page and showed him my basilisk pic. So, hee hee, TGS made it into a dream of mine. Last week I dreamed I got drafted into the Army (yes in my dream world, girls can be drafted) and earlier last week, my work place re-hired that evil lady that tried to frame me (in my dream world of course). My brain is on over drive.
It's a race weekend here in Indy. Brickyard something or another. Reminds me of why I hate Indianapolis. Yea! Watch the pretty cars go in cirles! Weeee! Pass a beer.
Besides that, the local media have been covering that Donna Walker like a presidential body watch. You know, that Kansas lady that pretended she was a missing child to a Indiana couple. She also tried to tell another couple here that she was very pregnant and hoping to give up her child to adopt, but they better come to Kansas fast. She seems to be a very bored individual.

Last thing: I hate summer. I have asthma. It hurts. *pouts for real* :(

Replies:
Andrea: Congrats! I'm still looking for mine, I think.
<Just thought I'd make that aware. Now hurry up and finish Pendragon and start Dark Ages soon... > Second!

Mooncat:<cannon> Cannon, or canon? My dictionary isn't handy and this one has got me. I thought you canonized saints not cannon-ized them (cause that would hurt alot). :):):):):) Row of smilies good intentions.
When was Anastasia Renard Xanatos's employee?
<Xanatos was extremely generous to the Gargoyles from the get go.> Because he wanted to use them, though.

Fire Storm: <There is a GoVeg.com, why not StayMeat.com? > Are you going to legally change your name for the cause? (You did hear about that employee of PETA that did that right?)

*********TGS SPOILERS?********
So far, unimpressed with Choices. It all just seemed a bit to cliche. It was like a way-lay (sp?) to the next installment, where I really hope the story picks up. And Demona being there- just so we don't forget her of course. Unless they end up needing her in the future to unlock some part of the grail, like killing Madoc or something. There we go, Demona being the key to everything. I dunno, I just hope this Tuesday's is a little more fun to read.
*******END******************

Oh yeah, and my illegal cable tv dissappeared. :P It'll cost me like $45 to get real cable. Stupid cable company... No Inuyasha except by web. Oh well, up to 118 on that. :D

Of to work!
Later
Dezi
Friday, August 1, 2003 12:24:44 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Note on Mecord's web site: it sucks. I wrote it in notepad. The instant I get my grade back from my HTML class, the site will be upgraded (Dreamweaver is your friend) to "something that sucks less."
Mecord's Cat
Friday, August 1, 2003 12:21:29 PM
IP: 12.255.1.249

I haven't been posting much recently but the discussion about Xanatos is very interesting and I'd like to add a point after reading Mooncat's post.

Mooncat expressed several times that Xanatos is not repentant because he never expresses or feels remorse, that instead he only addapts to new situations.

For the most part I agree with you. I don't think he does feel remorse over the way he conducts his escapades. However, I have to say I beleive he did feel and express remorse in regard to his treatment of the gargoyles. It happened when Goliath and clan saved his son. I think for his son's sake Xanatos suddenly regretted all his toying with the Gargoyles. They were supposed to be his enemies, he had made them his enemies, and had nearly killed them several times, but here they were against all reason protecting his son's life. So yeah, I think he started to feel a little remorse at that point, though he may never admit it. So after the remorse he changed his conduct towards the gargoyles and began recompense by giving them back their ancestral home. So here at least I beleive that we should give Xanatos credit enough to say he repented in that one thing.

In a related note I have some comments about TGS

****TGS Comments****
I must say I'm impressed with the daring move of a Grail Quest. It's bassically declaring the Gargoyles universe as Christian and I'm curious as to how they are going to deal with that. I enjoyed the realization Arthur had concerning the Quest in Choices Part 2 about the fact that this will be a spiritual quest as well. But I wonder if their overall goal is to find the Grail as a group. It follows that if they travel together then they will all be tried as to their faith and moral character. However, the only one who really needs to find the grail is Merlin. But I find it interesting that Arthur and Merlin are both tested in the same manner at the same time. I know there's been discussion about Arthur and how much repentance he's done for past sins, but the simple fact that he was the first to realize the answer to his delemma shows that he at least is more penitant than Merlin. In Fact I think Merlin has a lot of growth to do this season. As do the rest of the group. Rory for example has unfinished buisness with Banshee, and may have to confront her again. I'm very interested in how it will all turn out.
****end coments****

One last bit. My wife threw together a small website for me. It was for an HTML class and is kind of basic, but now that I have it I might upgrade it and add a few features. So I decided to post the addy here if you're interested.
Mecord
Friday, August 1, 2003 12:15:39 PM
IP: 12.255.15.248

Usually I don't post with an image, but i think I'll do so tonight.

A few years back, Greg Weisman made a really insightful comment on Xanatos. Thought I'd dig it up and post it here...

***

Xanatos went through a protracted, gradual change over the course of 65 episodes. Hopefully, you all thought it was organic and believable. But I never said he had stopped scheming. (Keep in mind, I had nothing to do with how he was portrated in the last twelve episodes of CHRONICLES.) I don't even believe that his goals have changed that much. But his priorities have definitely shifted, plus he gained a great deal of self-knowledge and a clearer view of what matters most in life. First and foremost, his family. Second, true friends (or at least allies) that you can really count on. He has learned that you have to give if you ever hope to take. (But that doesn't mean he's done taking.) As to his plans, I still think he wants immortality, so that's not over. And I felt he needed to deal with the Illuminati, who are likely to expect things from him that he's not prepared to deliver. Don't expect his methods to change much.

As to the why, well, frankly, the character demanded it. The relationship with Fox manifested itself to the pleasant surprise of everyone involved. We were all even more surprised (David included) to find out that he actually loved her. Every other step along the way was a natural outgrowth of the revelation that he was capable of love. His father influenced him as well. Though he'd be loathe to admit it, David cares what his Petros thinks of him. It wasn't an accident that Petros was invited to his wedding.

***

As for TGS, it is loosely inspired from Greg's Master Plan. I tend to think Xanatos was portrayed a little too "good" in the series, and would like to correct that a bit. I don't plan for him to do a complete 180 on us, but Xanatos will be doing a bit more scheming. You'll definetly be seeing a lot more of the "old" Xanatos in future episodes. Sure, he and the clan are not at odds anymore. But hey, as he said way back in "Awakening" : "The richer you are, the more enemies you have." and much later "I have never lacked formidable enemies." And he certainly still doesn't lack them.

Xanatos is still very much an amoral man. He just also happens to want to be the world's greatest dad and husband. Which I think makes for a fascinating contrast.

He's such a fun character to write.
Greg Bishansky
Friday, August 1, 2003 02:41:41 AM
IP: 216.179.5.114

Kaiotooooooooooooo (some extra "o"s just in case I forget any in the future *^_~*

<< I think we'll just have to disagree on this one. I think you are mixing fannon with cannon. You mention feelings and thoughts for Xanatos that aren't established from his actions or words on the show itself. Nothing Xanatos has said on screen mentions feelings of repentance nor are his actions and expressions regretful or remorseful. >>

[[KAI] To a very significant extent, TGS and The Goliath Chronicles are based on Greg's character notes and statements, plus you can refer to Ask Greg for some of the significant directions he was taking characters in the various episodes of the first two seasons.]]

But no matter how much TGS may be based on some of Greg's comments, it isn't cannon. There are considerable differences between TGS and Greg's "master plan" too. Cannon is only what actually got aired. Everything else is fan speculation.

[[Xanatos is also a very cool customer. His expressions are more subtle than moping around and self-flagilating when he regrets something (and he does have regrets). He seldom does the "end-zone dance" when he wins at something either. That's part of who he is - he doesn't get over-wrought in public.]]

Xanatos may be subtle in his expressions, but he does actually *express* them. There is not even a *subtle* hint of repentance in his demeanor. And here I have to point out that the definition of repentance is :

1. The act or process of repenting.
2. Remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin. See Synonyms at penitence.

[[KAI] You'll notice that this event not only feeds the quest for immortality, but it also marks the likely end to David Xanatos having any family relationships for a long time.]]

There is nothing in Greg's statement that indicated that the death of Xanatos' mother ended his having any family relationships. Where exactly did you get that inference? It's a sudden leap of assumption that I really don't follow.

[[His mother is dead. His father is estranged from him. He has no siblings ever mentioned. He is a man very much alone, and becomes who we see at the beginning of Awakenings. As he begins to reestablish a family, he starts to swing back from being an ammoral, obsessed seeker of immortality to a healthier, happier person overall.]]

Again, you are assuming things that aren't supported on screen. Xanatos isn't alone, he has his trusty sidekick Tonto... ummm Owen, at his side. And Fox is his girlfriend and has been his girl friend for several years. Anastasia (sp?) Renard is on friendly terms with him, at least enough to be his employee. Xanatos isn't hurting for company prior to the Gargoyles waking up, and his happiness and his amoral nature are not exclusive of each other. Xanatos has always evidenced a man completely happy with being amoral. He and his lover and eventual wife Fox are happily amoral together.

[[ (Ask Greg) >>But to be fair, Xanatos is changing. And I think Elisa acknowledges that change, at least subconsciously. She is no longer in open conflict with him. I think that his love for Fox had an effect on her. As does his obvious love for his son, and the way he protected the gargs when the chips were down. <<

[KAI] Note, Greg does not say, "Her perception of Xanatos is changing," or "Our perception of Xanatos is changing." He says - definatively - "Xanatos is changing."]]]]]

I think it's quite clear it's Elisa's perception that is the focus of that statement, Elisa's view of Xanatos loving Fox (after all, it is not new to Xanatos himself). (David's loved Fox all along, since before Elisa met Xanatos). David's love for his son and protection of the Gargoyles affects how Elisa is seeing Xanatos, making him more than just the "bad guy" Greg is (from what I see) addressing Elisa's perception. And the word "changing" is not synonymous with repentance.

[[KAI] Greg expresses that Xanatos is originally built on an archetype he calls, "The Bastard," but that Xanatos has been evolving since the beginning of the series, expanding his sphere of concern and his personal values. He's come from being complete ammoral to just being unscrupulous. It is almost completely due to learning to love others and accept love from others - as cheesy as that may sound. The core of that was learning how to care for others and un-learning the habit of treating everyone like a pawn just for convenience's sake.]]

Is this your interpretation of something Greg has outright said? I'd prefer to seeing the actual quote by Greg if there is one. As far as I can see from the actual episodes, Xanatos doesn't need to "learn" to love, because he already *is* in love with Fox. And there is no evidence he has ever had a problem with accepting love. We, the audience, don't see Xanatos "learning" to love. We see him "in love" and we see him "loving" but there is no process of him *learning* the act of loving. And Xanatos treating people like pawns is reinforced through the series with such scenes as him and Fox playing their chess game with live people. This is way after we know he loves Fox, so the ability and act of loving hasn't affected this amoral outlook of his. In fact, it's a trait he shares with his loved one, Fox.

<< Being generous to someone whose given you a valuable service isn't an example repentance. >>

[[KAI] It is an example of decency - something Xanatos lacks profoundly at the beginning of the series. Beginning to change the way you treat others is the - corner-strone - of repentance / redemption / self-improvement.]]

Xanatos was extremely generous to the Gargoyles from the get go. He was providing them with super delux digs in the beginning of the series. At the end of the series he's providing the exact same accomodations for them that he did in the beginning. Xanatos has recognized the Gargoyles aren't controllable in the first episodes, this view point hasn't changed, and he has adjusted to it. Recognition of that fact wasn't repentance in the first few episodes, why would it constitute repentance in the final episodes? Xanatos hasn't regretted or shown he feels remorse over his past actions in any way except to be sorry they didn't work out the way he'd planned them to do. Adapting to circumstances, as Xanatos is very adept at doing, is not repentance. If a person finds a lump in the road and learns he can't go over it, but then finds a way around it, the change of course isn't an act of repentance just because the person isn't bumping his head against the lump repeatedly trying to go over it.

<< Gratitude yes, but not repentance. You can be grateful and not have it change your moral compass. >>

[[[KAI] Actually, if all your actions up until that point have been those of an ingrate (and Xanatos's actions have been), than an expression of sincere gratitude is definitely a nudge to the needle of one's moral compass.]]]

Exactly HOW has Xanatos been an ingrate? When the Gargoyles did something Xanatos should have been grateful for, he showed his gratitude. There was no instance when the Gargoyles actually did him a favor that he did not return it. For the most part, until the clan went out of their way to save baby Alex, the Gargoyles were actively working to be obstacles in Xanatos' goals. If Xanatos treats favors with favors and threats with threats, how does this denote repentance? If the Gargoyles had not gone out of their way to do something momentus for Xanatos, it is most probably he would not be going out of his way to do nice things for them. That's not repentance. That's payment for services rendered.

<< I don't think anyone can say Xanatos didn't care what his dad thought until Vows because one of the major points of Vows was the introduction to the audience of Petros Xanatos and showing Xanatos *did* care what his father thought-- it's part of his motive for inviting his father to the wedding. These feelings weren't "new" or something he "learned" on the show or as a result of things in the show. Again, this was a facet of Xanatos revealed to the audience as a pre-existing part of Xanatos' personality, not new and evolving traits. >>

[[[KAI] No, I think you interpret that situation wrongly. Those traits are things that exist in Xanatos because he's a human being and not a monster. They are also traits that he - represses - in his adult character at the beginning (probably fueled by the hurt he felt when his mother died and his family broke apart). As Xanatos stops repressing those feelings he slowly begins to learn to live as a whole person.]]]

I think my interpretation stands. The traits of love for Fox and caring what his father thinks are in place from the beginning, Xanatos doesn't "learn" them through events in the show. There is no "I didn't care about you before, but now I do." change in him. Of course what his father thinks matters to Xanatos, you can infer that from his desire to show Petros that he (David) is a self made man, and the invitation Petros got to attend the wedding in Vows. If Xanatos was repressing his care for what his father thought, he'd never have invited the man to his wedding in the first place. As for loving Fox, Xanatos didn't want to admit it out loud, but it didn't mean he wasn't loving her until he actually had to say it, it just shows he considered it a vulnerability.

[[[KAI] There is - plenty - of evidence that his methods and general way-of-life are altered through the series. Greg put it there, and marks it out in his notes. You simply overlooked it for one reason or another.]]]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Xanatos' methods are consistent throughout the series. Yes he applies what he learns in his experiences... to improve his success rate. Adaption is not repentance. Repentance is feeling sorrow or remorse for past action. Xanatos does not evidence sorrow or remorse for his past deeds, he assesses them and formulates new and improved courses of action to accomplish his goals. His "way of life" is altered by having a wife and child, but this does not equal repentance. Most people's lives change when they take a spouse and have kids, and these "changes" in their lifestyle are not the equivalent to repentance. I could go and get my hair colored tomorrow, it would be a life affecting change also, but it certainly wouldn't be an act of repentance. Repentance is a change, but not all change is repentance.

<< He has adjusted his assessment of the Gargoyles (valued allies instead of mere possessions) and their place in his life, but there have been no professions of remorse on his part for past actions. >>

[[[KAI] I don't see why we expect Xanatos to be remorseful. ]]]

I don't expect remorse. But if you are saying he has repented his past actions, then remorse is part of the definition of what repentance is. No remorse. No repentance.

[He's still not a scrupulous fellow at this point - he just isn't a complete "Bastard" anymore. He's not inclined to beat himself up over - any - of his failings, moral or otherwise.]

Which proves my point... Xanatos isn't repentant. Not being a complete bastard isn't the definition of being repentant. Remorse and sorrow of past deeds (or over the lack of specific actions) is what repentance *is* -- if Xanatos isn't upset over his failings, 'moral or otherwise' than it is not repentance.

[Instead he's the sort that is simply resolved to do better in the future. Xanatos ties to take bad things in stride and move past them, even bad things about himself.]

And that is adaption. Not repentance.

[That doesn't mean he doesn't have regrets, he just A.) doesn't let them impare his ability to function and B.) does not whine about them in public to get attention like some folks do. He's about as fond of melodrama as he is cliched villainy - which is to say he doesn't put much stock in either.]

Xanatos regrets seem to consist of plans that didn't succeed, or things that are presenting obstacles to his current goals. A man can regret that sticking a sword into his enemy didn't kill the enemy. It's regretting that he tried to kill his enemy in the first place that would be an act of repentance, not regretting his attempt did not result in a dead enemy or that the attempt is making it difficult for him to achieve a later goal. There is a distinction between how and what you regret that makes regret part of repentance. So far, from direct observation of Xanatos's actions on the cartoon, he hasn't shown remorse, subtle or otherwise, for past amoral behaviors. Thus, the conjecture that he is not repentant. Which isn't to say he doesn't want to make nice with the Gargoyles now, just that he doesn't repent his past actions against them.

mc
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Friday, August 1, 2003 02:28:10 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

lain: <come now.. THATS not thinking like a TGS staffer!>
Maybe reason #1 why I am not a TGS staffer!
I mean, I am sure she CAN find things for her to do, but I think it would be rather difficult to keep them interested enough to stay (blackmail and high pay DO have their limits), and give them enough to justify their pay.
Fire Storm
Friday, August 1, 2003 02:26:32 AM
IP: 208.143.21.10

fire storm>> <<BUT the biggest problem I see with Demona creating a group to get back her company is what does she do with them when she has her company back?>> come now.. THATS not thinking like a TGS staffer!
;)
lain
Friday, August 1, 2003 01:32:16 AM
IP: 65.93.85.104

******* TGS Comments ********
"Choices" is a good episode. The plot threads are nicely balanced, and it seems that this is where the season really takes off. Merlin's behavior in the second part is a bit odd though. Why doesn't he tell anyone of Demona's offer? Also, why doesn't he speak his mind during the council? He seems to think that the decision should be Arthur's, even though it's his own life that is the reason for the quest. It's understandable that he does not want to have a deciding voice since the quest is likely to be a a danger for everyone else too and he wants them to make the decision freely, but refusing to take part in the discussion altogether somehow seems to shift the responsibility onto Arthur.
Judging by the appearance of the Grail in part 2, it can change location at will and the quest will be quite unusual. Finding the Grail seems to be less a matter of tracking it down than of doing something to prove one worthy of it so that once it appears it can be reached. It seems this season is going to be more like Season 1 than 2 or 3, and will deal with the characters' pasts and the way they think.
I wonder if any of the more peripheral characters, like the London Clan or the Banshee (who seems to have inexplicably disappeared) will show up this season. Last season dealt with them quite a bit, which was very interesting... although of course that did mean fewer episodes focusing on Arthurian legend.
Speaking of Demona, her offer to Merlin does make some sense. When Thailog was dealing with the Manhattan clan in "Contingencies" he was well able to anticipate their moves and knew what to threaten them with. So if Demona was looking for an ally who had nothing to do with the clan, and she knew Merlin was friendly to the clan, she might try to seek him out. Still, she would probably be more used to going after Thailog alone, without an ally, unless she really, really wanted to have revenge on him quickly, and in a way he least expects.
******* Comments end *********
Lurking Echo
Friday, August 1, 2003 01:15:52 AM
IP: 205.184.175.65

Gside: <Maybe you're only hallucinating that you haven't>
Hmm... Tank, we need drugs. Lots of drugs.
<Shall we start a lobbying group?>
Why not? There is a GoVeg.com, why not StayMeat.com?
"For millions of years, humans have remained at the top of the food chain by eating other creatures. So why do you forsake your ancestors by only eating vegetables?
Eat meat: Make your ancestors proud!"
<Unfortunately, there's no emacs, and I haven't spent much time with vi>
Wait, wait, wait... So, let me get this straight: Not only can I secure telnet into the GFW, BUT I also get to use VI?!?!
SWEET!
<How could anyone forget Wilek?>
Definitely! I miss him.

Lain: 
But of course!
BUT the biggest problem I see with Demona creating a group to get back her company is what does she do with them when she has her company back?

Xanatos: I personally think that we haven't seen the end of Xanatos's bad side. Maybe the next bad deed he does may not even seem like a bad deed to him. Or, heck, maybe he will have a real mid-life crisis and rebel against being good.

Airwalker: <Good point; why not use Macbeth?>
Maybe Macbeth may even want to join in the quest, not to get the Grail for himself, but to try and help his boyhood hero.

Siryn: <Avalon Mists>
Kewl! Is it going to be hosted once again on the GFW?
Are submissions or simply topic ideas due by 08-15-2003?

Spacebabie: 
Scary, isn't it?

Andrea: <Arthur & te knights of the round table were all flamning homosexuals>
Well, lets look at this: They were concerned about furniture and dishware (round table, Grail), where ever they went, they always had a lot of men with them, and "All for 1, 1 for all"... not to mention they Lancelot went into castle Anthrax without even LOOKING! I mean, come on!
...
I gotta wonder if Lex ever watched Holy Grail and snickered at thoughts of the REAL King Arthur.
Fire Storm
Friday, August 1, 2003 12:38:51 AM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Had a few adventures hanging up picture railings. Tomorrow's some more cutting then varnishing.

Fire Storm> <<REALLY?... Hmm>>: Unfortunately, there's no emacs, and I haven't spent much time with vi.

Spacebabie> <<This goes double for the list>>: You forgot Wilek. How could you forget Wilek? How could anyone forget Wilek?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Friday, August 1, 2003 12:26:15 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

I found a way to get into all this Pendragon discussion action!

A few days ago, we recieved our weekly issue of the Weekly World News. Imagine my thoughts when I opened it up to the very first article, which was about the revelation that Arthur & te knights of the round table were all flamning homosexuals. I laughed through the entire thing. Even though I KNOW 95% of that magazine is crap (still a fun read though, gotta hand it to those writers, they have amazing imaginations), that combined with a few too many watchings of Monty Pythin & the Holy Grail, has destroyed my abilty to view Arthur seriously ever again.

Just thought I'd make that aware. Now hurry up and finish Pendragon and start Dark Ages soon...

-Andrea
Andrea - [takarifreak@dark-stars.net]
Friday, August 1, 2003 12:03:22 AM
IP: 209.91.49.213

spacie>> <<Man I just started reading the beginning of the CR archive and well Tood, FS, and LM are technically the only three that are still posting regulary..>> tood? (sorry.. that one was too good to just let slide..) <<when I first joined it was a lot fuller too>> dont forget all the people whove been chased out with pitchforks and pre-lit torches.. <<This goes double for the list: Robby, Aaron, Mara, Lynati, GXB, Green Baron, Dreamwolf and Warpy>> well :P~ to you then! ;) <<Considering who the head of the tema is …yeah, I can only see one member lend her a helping paw…er I mean hand>> myabwahahahahaaa.. *falls off chair* heh. juuust you wait :D

siryn>> we love you!
lain
Thursday, July 31, 2003 07:53:21 PM
IP: 65.93.87.80

Actually, Gorlois's sortie was not designed to get rid of Uther because Gorlois already knew (presumably through his scouts) that Uther was absent from his army that night. Instead, Gorlois (unaware of why Uther was absent) decided to take advantage of the situation and attack Uther's army, presumably operating under the notion that if Uther was away, the besiegers would be a leaderless mob that would be easily dispersed. What Gorlois overlooked was that the besiegers, even without Uther, still outnumbered his own garrison (and presumably there were a few officers who'd been left in charge of things in Uther's absence and had the ability to direct the army while he was gone), which was enough to get him defeated and slain.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 31, 2003 06:18:47 PM
IP: 171.75.194.163

Hey Tribun

To answer your question. It isn't specifically, Arthur and Cornwall but rather Arthur's father Uther. You can catch all the details in season one of Pendragon. Basically, Uther lusted after Igraine wife of Gorlois (sp?) the Duke of Cornwall. He was pretty arrogant and obvious about his attentions so the Duke and Igraine took off. Uther used that to declare war on Cornwall. The important thing about this is that Merlin helped Uther disguise himself as Gorlois. Uther snuck into the castle, bedded Igraine and fathered Arthur. Sometime in the night Gorlois was killed in an ambush and Uther married Igraine and packed off her children including an embittered Morgana La Fay.

Some has been said about how foolish Gorlois was for heading a sortie into Uther's camp. I think it has some strategical value. Gorlois knew better than any that Uther was the reason for the conflict. Eliminate Uther then you eliminate the conflict. None of Uther's vassals had a legitimate quarrel with the Duke. They did it out of obligation to their liege lord. Was it risky? As much as anything, but I wouldn't call if foolish.
Taleweaver
Thursday, July 31, 2003 05:09:21 PM
IP: 24.205.177.107

Man I just started reading the beginning of the CR archive and well Tood, FS, and LM are technically the only three that are still posting regulary..I think ED too if the eD now is the same back then.

Coyote and Ravyn>>>Please post more often.

This goes double for the list: Robby, Aaron, Mara, Lynati, GXB, Green Baron, Dreamwolf and Warpy.

I wouldn’t mind if Christine or Spike posted more often too…I know we have LJ’s…but Damn this place seems early from when the CR started…when I first joined it was a lot fuller too.

Airwalker<<<Demona still feels more like an added intrusion to the story rather than an organic part of it>>>>I feel Demona’s presense here is just a teaser. I have an inkling that she will make another appearance in the future.
<<<from an air of contempt to angry outbursts>>> You don’t think Demona is capable of this? She did it to her self once. “If I must beat this lesson into you then so be it.”
And from Awakening She was about to lash against the Princes for her coments about not letting beats into the dining hall.(Not that I don’t blame Demona for getting pissed at the time.)

Kaiotoo (Due to Mooncat dropping an O I gave you an extra to make up for it)<<<Having black marks on one's past does not necessarily make one evil in the present.>>>BINGO! People can change. They learned what they had done in the past and they regretted it. A lot of people go through personal change.

Firestorm<<<Now, where would she find some Bad Guys like that>>>Only if she could deal with some FUZZY logic.

Lain<<<id wager demonas more likely to find them more of a hindrance than a help.. i mean.. *cough* just from a speculative point of view, of course >>>Considering who the head of the tema is …yeah, I can only see one member lend her a helping paw…er I mean hand.

Josh<<<Hope summer is going well for you all>>>If you like Thunder and Rain

DPH<<<Right now, you may not be able to>>>He’s refering to Pendragon of course. We usually call all the discussion related to the main Gargoyles Saga and their spin offs TGS.

Siryn>>>I sent you an e-mail

Fanfic Plug>>>My latest fic. “Mysterious Creatures” is up in the archives and my site.
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Thursday, July 31, 2003 04:48:02 PM
IP: 4.72.71.10

Siryn>Well....

I could help you. If you look for a featured artis of the month, I could think I can help you. I have drawn nearly all the persons of my Gargoyle ficverse, and would be glad, to give the pics for a featured artist.
Also, I offer you a Charakter spotlight of one of my created Gargoyles in my ficverse, namely Ikarus, who you have already seen in my picture for the MGC (The Poor Avatar...).
And finally I offer you a Fiction series overview (I only made 5 of 12 storys so far). I can not give you my fiction itself, because it is all in German, and I don't have time to translate it (it HUGE!) Also, I haven't found anyone yet, who is willing to translate for me, so that I could put it into the fiction archive.

What do you think of my offer? Want some examples first?

TGS SPOILER
***********
Well, that Arthus turned down Duvals offer didn't really surprise me. I think, he still don't full trust Lancelot. But I can't blame him.
I'm not totally familiar with the Arthus legendy. What did he do to Cornwall? I heared, there was a really nasty thing, that happend between these two.
**********
SPOILER END
Tribun - [joachim_henkel@gmx.net]
Luebeck, SH, Germany
Thursday, July 31, 2003 04:16:47 PM
IP: 62.214.33.192

Hey Everyone,

I come bearing an unsual but semi-desperate request. If anyone would like to write an article for Avalon Mists, or has craft projects, industry news (not necessary relating to gargoyles), choices of their favourite fanfiction. Fanfiction reviews as well, or you just honestly want an excuse to say "Look at me! I'm published on the web."

Please consider (or at least letting me know) about helpful topics for avalon mist.

I would have to get all the information by the evening of the 15th (august) or early morning of the 16th.

I would really love to see this zine come back and once again kinda fill one of the holes in fandom. So please consider.

Even if you want to do an article on this history and growth of a character from the series..that would be wonderful!

There is also a calendar of fandom events feature, so if your groups are holding meetings, RPGS, or for example publizing when the next season of TGS will come out?

Thankyou very much for your time and consideration.

Siryn - [siryn7@aol.com]
Thursday, July 31, 2003 12:22:49 PM
IP: 24.213.130.186

Gside: <Or it's just the nulls giving you problems.>
Mostly the nulls. And I had a problem with defining my variables and figuring the difference between UNIX if/else command and the same in PHP
<You could always go back into the database and change everything by hand>
OR just nuke the table and re-load via text file, which was what I did.
<The ftp/scp password also works for SSH enabled telnet type clients (like Putty).>
REALLY?... Hmm...
Fire Storm
Thursday, July 31, 2003 02:20:38 AM
IP: 66.72.178.104

Airwalker> <<is Arthur a true penatent?>>: Does he kneel often?

Fire Storm> <>: "show databases;" is a wonderful command. The ftp/scp password also works for SSH enabled telnet type clients (like Putty).
<<picnum/pictureurl/storynum/artist>>: As long as there's a cross reference there, it should be good for me.
<>: Actually, I don't even remember if SQL allows arrays. I was just thinking if I might want to organize anything by writing duties.
<<trying to mix mySQL info pulled by PHP>>: Stupid check: You are remembering to call mysql_fetch_array() on your query result, right? Or it's just the nulls giving you problems. You could always go back into the database and change everything by hand.

And The Boxer, by Simon and Garfunkel.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Thursday, July 31, 2003 12:13:01 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Imzadi - <wish I could participate in the TGS discussion> Right now, you may not be able to. But unless you're going to be gone for a few more months, you'll end up participating in tgs discussion.
DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:44:17 PM
IP: 204.94.193.79

Long and very busy day, but I just wanted to say "Great Pendragon Episode" and "wish I could participate in the TGS discussion".

Hope summer is going well for you all.
Josh
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 09:55:50 PM
IP: 17.204.22.239

Gside: <The mysql databases currently on the machine are>
Ah. I see you already have that info... kewl.
<For the pictures table would it be title/pictureurl/storytitle/artist>
Well, for the storypics table, I was thinking of picnum/pictureurl/storynum/artist
<It looks like the staff will want a column for storydate>
I just need the list from the staff of the dates. Shouldn't be a problem to get it to work.
<Will writtenby be an array to deal with multiple authors?>
Well, I am not familiar with arrays yet. I just have it as text: (for now)
IE:
JEB and Batya "The Toon" Levin with contributions by Kathy Pogge
When I learn more about arrays...

Been busy at work doing actual work, so that has sucked lately. Spent Monday figuring a workaround because a new program at work doesn't work right (cuts off info), but has gives info that the old program doesn't. But then when I came in Tuesday, the new program is fixed.
Spent Tuesday re-coding what I coded Monday to take OUT the workaround.
Spending Wednesday trying to mix mySQL info pulled by PHP with IF and IS_NULL statements and having a hell of a time doing so (maybe it's because I am on my database v1, and I accidentally used NULL instead of /N in the text file I used to import the data...)

Fire Storm
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 07:54:27 PM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Airwalker >>

<< Thats the question - is Arthur a true penatent? He talks about guilt but what did he do besides his onetime offer of money and prayer? Did he really change? >>

So, we agree then, that the principle of the matter is not that Arthur and Merlin have done wrong - but that Arthur and Merlin do not seem truly penatent for their past misdeeds from what we have seen of their characters in Pendragon, correct?

You know, it doesn't really both me that much - honestly. Arthur and Merlin try to excuse and absolve themselves rationalizing. People do that all the time. That's actually pretty well symbolized by Arthur being barred from the church in "Choices, part 2." As Todd points out, part of the Grail Quest for Percival (who did achieve the Grail) was atonement for past misdeeds.

"Obtaining the Holy Grail" isn't completing some treasure-hunt and holding the magic cup over your head in triumph. That theme was very well expressed in "Choices, part 2." What the Knights need to come to grips with is that - all - the Trials of the Grail Quest are trials of character, bringing one on a spiritual journey towards the holiness that the Grail symbolizes.

"Achieving the Holy Grail" isn't about touching the physical object, but about achieving a state of being. The healing power of the Holy Grail isn't confered by a cup, but by the state of being holy enough to be worthy of such a blessing. It is pretty much taking assuming the mantle of the paladin.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:34:36 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Moncat >>

Kaito -

[KAI] I'll give you back your second "o" when you give me back mine. ;-)

<< I think we'll just have to disagree on this one. I think you are mixing fannon with cannon. You mention feelings and thoughts for Xanatos that aren't established from his actions or words on the show itself. Nothing Xanatos has said on screen mentions feelings of repentance nor are his actions and expressions regretful or remorseful. >>

[KAI] To a very significant extent, TGS and The Goliath Chronicles are based on Greg's character notes and statements, plus you can refer to Ask Greg for some of the significant directions he was taking characters in the various episodes of the first two seasons.

Xanatos is also a very cool customer. His expressions are more subtle than moping around and self-flagilating when he regrets something (and he does have regrets). He seldom does the "end-zone dance" when he wins at something either. That's part of who he is - he doesn't get over-wrought in public.

But do consider this little tid-bit from Greg:

>> Did any specific event in Xanatos' life set about his thirst and overwhelming desire for immortality?

Greg responds...

The death of his mother couldn't have helped. <<

[KAI] You'll notice that this event not only feeds the quest for immortality, but it also marks the likely end to David Xanatos having any family relationships for a long time. His mother is dead. His father is estranged from him. He has no siblings ever mentioned. He is a man very much alone, and becomes who we see at the beginning of Awakenings. As he begins to reestablish a family, he starts to swing back from being an ammoral, obsessed seeker of immortality to a healthier, happier person overall.

Look at Greg's take on "Eye of the Beholder"

>> For once, he's out of control. And he can't bear to admit it. He pretends (even to himself) that he just needs to recover the valuable Eye of Odin, when what he obviously really wants is to save Fox. "...I'd never have just given it away. Ah, well, spilled milk." (I always thought that was a great and yet feeble cover for his real feelings.) <<

[KAI] Greg also has another interesting point here:

>> But to be fair, Xanatos is changing. And I think Elisa acknowledges that change, at least subconsciously. She is no longer in open conflict with him. I think that his love for Fox had an effect on her. As does his obvious love for his son, and the way he protected the gargs when the chips were down. <<

[KAI] Note, Greg does not say, "Her perception of Xanatos is changing," or "Our perception of Xanatos is changing." He says - definatively - "Xanatos is changing."

>> I love the notion that Goliath sees hope in Xanatos LOVING someone. And of course, he's right. Xanatos' love for Fox (and later Alex) will result in Goliath getting the castle back. Not war, but love. <<

[KAI] Greg expresses that Xanatos is originally built on an archetype he calls, "The Bastard," but that Xanatos has been evolving since the beginning of the series, expanding his sphere of concern and his personal values. He's come from being complete ammoral to just being unscrupulous. It is almost completely due to learning to love others and accept love from others - as cheesy as that may sound. The core of that was learning how to care for others and un-learning the habit of treating everyone like a pawn just for convenience's sake.

<< Being generous to someone whose given you a valuable service isn't an example repentance. >>

[KAI] It is an example of decency - something Xanatos lacks profoundly at the beginning of the series. Beginning to change the way you treat others is the - corner-strone - of repentance / redemption / self-improvement.

<< Gratitude yes, but not repentance. You can be grateful and not have it change your moral compass. >>

[KAI] Actually, if all your actions up until that point have been those of an ingrate (and Xanatos's actions have been), than an expression of sincere gratitude is definitely a nudge to the needle of one's moral compass.

<< I don't think anyone can say Xanatos didn't care what his dad thought until Vows because one of the major points of Vows was the introduction to the audience of Petros Xanatos and showing Xanatos *did* care what his father thought-- it's part of his motive for inviting his father to the wedding. These feelings weren't "new" or something he "learned" on the show or as a result of things in the show. Again, this was a facet of Xanatos revealed to the audience as a pre-existing part of Xanatos' personality, not new and evolving traits. >>

[KAI] No, I think you interpret that situation wrongly. Those traits are things that exist in Xanatos because he's a human being and not a monster. They are also traits that he - represses - in his adult character at the beginning (probably fueled by the hurt he felt when his mother died and his family broke apart). As Xanatos stops repressing those feelings he slowly begins to learn to live as a whole person.

Again, we can get some great insight from the man inside Xanatos's head:

>> X is still trying to interpret things to suit his old (and dated) world view. He thinks Goliath is trading the Eye for Fox, which of course he wasn't. Goliath doesn't think that way.

"Now you know my weakness."
"Only you would consider love a weakness."
"You've never looked more heroic."
"A momentary lapse, I assure you." <<

Take a look at this section of Ask Greg, regarding the Family Xanathos

>> David likes to believe (at this stage in the series) that he's evolved beyond the need for a parental relationship. But "Vows" sort of demonstrates that his relationship with Petros is much more complex than that. David still needs parental approval and is somewhat amazed (at least subconsciously) that Fox does not. Again, in this episode, Fox is more than his equal. <<

[KAI] Note, "likes to believe ... that he's evolved beyond the need for a parental relationship." Greg makes a good note, however, that no matter what David may have thought or done in the past, he can't cut the ties that bind - only try to cover them up. In "Vows" they resurface as family becomes something more meaningful to David Xanatos.

<< But there is no indication by Hunters Moon and the Journey ( I don't really count the rest of the Goliath Chronicles, but even then there wasn't anything I remember as repentance) that Xanatos has repented anything, or that his methods of accomplishing his goals have changed at all. >>

[KAI] There is - plenty - of evidence that his methods and general way-of-life are altered through the series. Greg put it there, and marks it out in his notes. You simply overlooked it for one reason or another.

<< He has adjusted his assessment of the Gargoyles (valued allies instead of mere possessions) and their place in his life, but there have been no professions of remorse on his part for past actions. >>

[KAI] I don't see why we expect Xanatos to be remorseful. He's still not a scrupulous fellow at this point - he just isn't a complete "Bastard" anymore. He's not inclined to beat himself up over - any - of his failings, moral or otherwise. Instead he's the sort that is simply resolved to do better in the future. Xanatos ties to take bad things in stride and move past them, even bad things about himself.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have regrets, he just A.) doesn't let them impare his ability to function and B.) does not whine about them in public to get attention like some folks do. He's about as fond of melodrama as he is cliched villainy - which is to say he doesn't put much stock in either.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:15:47 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

**TGS COMMENTS**

KAIOTO - You wrote: [I disagree with Airwalker's evaluation of Arthur and Merlin in relation to their past misdeeds. Innocence proves nothing. Having black marks on one's past does not necessarily make one evil in the present.]

I'm not saying they are evil now; I just feel that it seems more like Arthur and Merlin have both not really been dealing with the dark parts of their respective pasts. Both of them more or less choose not to dwell on what they have done rather than really do anything concrete in an attempt to atone. (While I agree that some things can be atoned for, murder is not one of them; Arthur can change and grow and try to repent for those children he killed but thats different from actually being forgiven for doing what he did.) And when someone (usually Morgana since the Knights and Gargoyles seem to fall into line with Arthur quite quickly) points out to them their pasts, they seem to rationalize, make excuses, or try not to get to the core root of the complaint (i.e. they get angry and usually go on the offensive against her). And while people might accept this, its my understanding that the Grail wouldn't.

You wrote: [The Grail does not look for the innocent (if any could claim to be such) - rather one who is holy.]

I'm far from being an expert on the Grail. It was my understanding that the Grail is action based rather than faith based, meaning that regardless of if you think you have repented the Grail will actually judge you based on what you have done. Have Arthur and Merlin actually repented or do they just think they did and still practice a type of behavior that could lead them down a similar path? From what I see they tend to be in a sort of partial denial - not saying they haven't done what they did but that they have moved on from it despite occassional feelings of guilt.

You wrote: [The true pentatent can achieve holiness. The hypocrit can still give truthful, sound advice and set a good example with the rest of his years.]

Thats the question - is Arthur a true penatent? He talks about guilt but what did he do besides his onetime offer of money and prayer? Did he really change? In the aftermath it seems not, given what we know happened to Camelot. He didn't change the way he was or the way he was ruling and dealing with people. If he had then perhaps Camelot wouldn't have fallen. Has he come to grips with what he did? He talks about guilt but thats it. And even then he only does it occassionally. Repentance isn't something that drives him and guilt isn't something that changed him; its just something that pops up from time to time, usually when someone reminds him. Then he says he feels guilty and moves on. It feels more like denial than repentance.

TODD - You wrote: [And "Gargoyles" did, in general, take a stance of forgiveness to those who had committed bad deeds]

The series does emphasis the fact that forgiveness is possible but mainly when the person in question makes an attempt to change. But I think that there is a built in limit in the series as well - we never actually get into the question of murder, mainly because we haven't gotten to the point where Demona has questioned her deeds or made any attempt to change on that point. Its a plot for G2198 in the original cannon which we haven't gotten yet.

You wrote: [the Magus, Jason Canmore, and even Xanatos and Fox all end up undergoing some sort of reconciliation with the protagonists.]

I tend to take a very harsh view with the Magus although to his credit I will say that he refuses to accept the excuses that everyone else seems to make for him to ease what guilt he felt; he spends his life almost in a state of agony to make an attempt to atone. He is stripped of magic, and love, forcing himself to raise the children who bear strong resemblence to Gargoyles he knew and hated but goes on anyway.

I think that we don't have enough information to make an argument in favor of a reconsiliation between Jason Canmore and the Clan in Canon or in TGS. He deals with Elisa in HUNTERS MOON 3 but even when talking with her, in the dialgue he still has a bit of a difficult time reconsiling himself to the situation - his description of the Gargoyles to Elisa "And your.......... friends?" seems to imply he hasn't made a shift in his mind yet. (And as for TGS I don't really remember him showing up much except to claim Castaway once he loses his mind; otherwise I don't think he ever interacts with the Clan.)

As for Xanatos and Fox, in Canon we don't actually get any evidence that either of them feel bad about the years of 1994-1996; they seem to consider it to be water under the bridge but don't actually express any guilt for it. From the time of THE GATHERING up, they try to do favors for the Clan in order to thank them for saving Alex (that was the explination for the POSSESSION after all) but they don't actually say anything about the events before that. In fact the only mention we get of an act of repentance for the previous two years is when Xanatos says that "the feud is over" in HUNTERS MOON 3 which implies slightly that he considers restoring the Gargoyles to the Castle to be a way of moving on from what he simply dismissed as a "feud".

(In TGS I'm think the situation is a little different although its been a while since I've sat down to read GARGOYLES S2; I think that there was something happened around the time Talon and Maggie got married.)

FIRESTORM - You wrote: [Why don't they ask Macbeth for a ride? I mean, he HAS offered to help!]

Good point; why not use Macbeth? Hell he was right there when they started planning out their quest; I'm sure that he could lend them a hovercraft at the very least.

GRAYMONK - You wrote: [We may know Duval is Lancelot and that the Illuminati really are interested in the Grail but Arthur doesn't.]

Actually he does; Duval clearly admits to him that he's Lancelot and that they Illuminati are interested in the Grail. Arthur is doubtful about the Duval's claim to being Lancelot but Duval doesn't try to keep it a secret. He's pretty open about the entire thing.

You wrote: [From his perspective this could just be another trap to capture gargoyles.]

That is a concern that is brought up in the council meeting. It is something that should be considered; but lets not forget that aside from Griff, Arthur dumped the rest of the Clan for this quest. (I'm not even sure why Griff is along considering that waiting for him in daylight slows them down considerably.) It is a risk but just associating with the Arthur is a risk to the London Clan; besides I can't believe the Illuminati who are running the world can't figure out that the London Clan is openly running a magic shop in Soho and can't put tons of satellite technology at its disposal to follow one or two of them home to the manor; if Duval wanted the Clan he could have had them already. He got in a direct meeting with Goliath when he needed to way back in early TGS.

You wrote: [The question Arthur needs to ask first is "is this a trap?"]

It is a gamble; but thats how politics works. The honest truth is that the Illuminati are holding most of the cards. They just haven't played them yet. I was going on the assumption that Arthur would immediately assume that the Illuminati would betray them and that it would only be a matter of time before an allience would end. Why would he start out on them with a positive note? Because he feels bad that he was attracted to the guy's wife?

Eventual betrayal is the first thing he should assume and work from there. If they wanted to capture and do everything you mentioned, why not do it right there and then? After all Duval found them and not the other way around. So that means that the Illuminati need them or at least think that the Knights are useful at this point, useful enough that the Illuminati have given up suprise and let them know that they are watching them and want the Grail if they ever find it. (Hell there is even the possibility that the Illuminati could smooth the way out for the Knights even without allience on the idea that they are watching them anyway and if they succeed then its an opportunity to take the Grail from the Knights at the right moment. That is something to be considered as well. But the question is really "How far are you willing to go to cure Merlin?" Everything else is a gamble to achieve that one goal.)

You wrote: [This time arthur is politely solicitating her opinion as if she were an equal. She may have been thrown by that.]

The thing is that halfway through the last season I got the impression that she was being treated as an equal already and that even though she was an outsider in title, that didn't really matter since nobody cared about titles that much. (After all we still don't see Rory or Leba clamoring for titles even though even Mary has got one now.)

Thats why I view it as a clash; it feels more like something that should have happened much earlier on, like when she first appeared and would have been more wowed by the company she was in. By now I figured that expressing suprise as she was is out of place. Its a group of friends at this point and some title she just got shouldn't be changing her perspective of that very much.

You wrote: [It also served as an interesting counterpoint to the Illuminati council in Part 1.]

That is a good point that I didn't bring up before; it slipped my mind since the parallel with Duval/Arthur and Demona/Merlin is much more dominating in the episodes as a comparison than the two council meetings.

But it is a good point to bring up; I think that both councils have a serious flaw in thinking. The Illuminati flaws (besides seeming like a cross between giggling bunch of villainous preschoolers and a straight out John Gotti Mafia (as opposed to the more pragmatic GodFather I & II Mafia)) is mostly in lack of understanding of the Grail; they are relating to it as a magical object (which would be a more realistic way to deal with it rather than giving it a more religiously based expliantion) and are ignoring the high standards the Grail keeps for itself. The Knights have the same flaw in a way; while they recognize the standards of the Grail, they fail to follow the logic through and ask if the ones who are searching for it can even be accepted by it (Can the Grail Cure Merlin or will it just cure Mary instead as an ironic twist since she's the relative innocent who could approach it while Merlin, well, is not?)

YOu wrote: [RIP DULCINEA AND LEBA?]

Its not a bad idea - it hadn't really occurred to me that the cast would really be in danger of losing members despite the constant mentions of the fact that the original Knights lost tons of members to it. Maybe I've gotten a little used to the lack of mortality for the main cast; after all in the great Unseelie war that dominated the series for 2 seasons, no main character died at all - only members of the Chinese and Ishimuran Clans, and 3 or 4 out of the London Clan. No one in the main cast in direct fighting died (or got permanently hurt) and the Manhattan Clan even gained two flesh and blood members (until they left for Avalon).

Its easy to get used to the idea that they aren't going to die and would be an interesting twist to have someone possibly die in the quest. (The situation though leaves out Pendragon (since the series is named after him) as well as Mary and Merlin (who are going to live long enough to give birth to Maeve 2175's completely manipulated sex toy who's nickname I will not mention :-) )

I would personally add to your list that Griff could be a possibility; it would make for an interesting twist and how it would play off Brianna and both Gargoyle Clans could work to emphasis that element in the series again.

**END OF TGS COMMENTS**
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:08:03 PM
IP: 12.88.163.9

******WARNING! SPOILERS FOR CHOICES PART 2******

Well that was delightful. I thought Todd did a stellar job on this installment with only one or two minor problems.

THE GOOD:

I was glad to see Arthur consider Duval's offer without outside prompting. In the past Arthur has let his sense of honour get the better of him and cause heim to try some foolish things that his knights had to talk him out of (such as trying to confront Braddock's SWAT team in "Seeds of Change"). I was expecting Arthur to reject Duval at first and then change his mind after Merlin or Leba convinced him to consider it and was pleasantly surprised to see that expectation proven wrong.

Furthermore, I was happy to see Arthur had a compelling reason not to accepting the offer. Often when heros face choices like this in other media they decide not to accept for no toher reason than they are the good guy and they have principles. Success being contigent on following the Grail's moral code was a nice twist on that old cliche.

As others have said, Duval made some good arguements for accepting the alliance. Of course, now that issues such as transporting a gargoyles, funding, etc. have been brought up I hope they are adressed in upcoming episodes.

The council scene was the highlight of the episode for me. The Knights'reactions made sense and were consistent with their history and personality. Dulcinea's pragmatism seemed like a logical extension of her background and the practicallity she dsiplayed in "Seeds of Change" while Griff's antipathy for the Illuminati was certainly understandable. On a side note, Griff playing devil's advocate was an enjoyable change of pace from his usual role of the upbeat valiant knight. Roary's comments about betrayal were interesting. Apparently even though he's forgiven Molly "The Hound of Ulster" left some scars.

It also served as an interesting counterpoint to the Illuminati council in Part 1. Whereas the Illuminati council seemed to be dominated by one forceful personality, Powell, all of Arthur's companions got to have their say. Duval didn't pay attention to his council at first and even denigrated them in his mind. Arthur was alert and attentive throughout the meeting and respected all of his knights.

Finally, Duval's explanation for why he would not leave the Illuminati was quite reasonable and even compelling. I actually felt sorry for the guy. That's quite an acheivement, as I normally detest Lancelot with a passion. The only other sympathetic Lancelot I've seen was in the movie CAMELOT. You're in fine company Todd! Kudos!

THE BAD :

As Airwalker has already said Merlin seemed to be unnecessarily harsh with Demona. A man who slipped Igraine the magical equivalent of the date rape drug because he felt it was for the greater good shouldn't be casting stones at anyone else's morality.

I really didn't understand why Merlin felt he was compromising his morals by helping Demona. What's the problem with helping the savior of the world retake what was rightfully hers?

THE MISC :

CONCERNING TRAVELING ARRANGEMENTS - Maybe they can appeal to Jennifer Camford? She's trustworthy and while she may not be on the same level as Xanatos or even Montrose but her corporation seems wealthy enough to have the resources Arthur needs (private planes etc). Could make for an ironic parallel to Lanval, the knight Arthur neglected but was supported by a powerful woman.

RIP DULCINEA AND LEBA? - Yet another reference to how the first Grail quest decimated the round table. I have to say, I am really worried Dulcy and Leba won't survive this season. Towards the end of Season 3 PENDRAGON seemed to have centred itself around Arthur, Merlin and Mary. In "Out of the Blue" Roary mentioned he was thinking of returning to Ireland. Considering those two factors and how often we're reminded of the first quest's mortality rate, I'm starting to wonder if TGS isn't planning to streamline the cast. (BTW if I am wrong about this please do not tell me, I'm enjoying the suspense.)

All in all 8.5 Grails out of 10.

AIRWALKER - You wote <<The only real question is "should you use them to help your cause or not?" Not should "we trust them?" or "have they changed?">> I have to disagree, before Arthur decides wether to accept their help or not he needs an answer to the second question. We may know Duval is Lancelot and that the Illuminati really are interested in the Grail but Arthur doesn't. From his perspective this could just be another trap to capture gargoyles. For all he knows, if he accepts the offer, the first time he and his knights take advantage of any special arrangements the Illuminati make to get Griff through customs the Illuminati could intercept griff and take him hostage again. for that matter they could all be lead into a captured if they let the Illuminati handled their travelling arrangements. Accepting Duval's offer could result in Griff being locked up, Mary being disected, the rest of the knights drugged with the serum from "Iris, Lily, Rose" and the capture of the London, Calidonean and Barghest clans. The question Arthur needs to ask first is "is this a trap?"

Regarding Mary, you wrote <<the lack of confidence at the council suddenly introduced once she got the title of Squire comes out of nowhere - she has never hesitated to give her opinion before, so why get all self conscious about it now?>> The hesitation may not be due to a lack of confidence but due to surprise. IIRC this is the first time anyone has asked her for her opinion on the quest. In the past she she's been an outsider who said what she thought (often in uncomplimentary terms) regardless of wether or not she'd been asked. This time arthur is politely solicitating her opinion as if she were an equal. She may have been thrown by that.

BTW I am really enjoying your posts, there's always lots of interesting things to think about in them.
Graymonk - [mmckinnongra@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 09:28:41 AM
IP: 137.149.84.20

Kaito -

[but they certainly repented their abuse of the gargoyles and tried to make restitution after the Clan helped save Alex from Oberon in the Gathering, Part II.]

I think we'll just have to disagree on this one. I think you are mixing fannon with cannon. You mention feelings and thoughts for Xanatos that aren't established from his actions or words on the show itself. Nothing Xanatos has said on screen mentions feelings of repentance nor are his actions and expressions regretful or remorseful.

[Xanathos really doesn't - need - the gargoyles for protection anymore - since Oberon is gone - but he tries to do right by them anyway. He knows he treated Goliath and Co. like crap. He knows he's setting a terrible example of his son. He knows he owes them more than he can ever repay.]

The gargoyles living with him is what he wanted in the first place, and while they are not under his command, they will still act as guardians of his castle regardless, so he is actually benefiting from their presence. Does he "need" their protection? Not in mundane circumstances, but as he's said before,

"You know, all this time I've wondered why I let you creatures live. Now I know. You come in handy, now and then."

Being generous to someone whose given you a valuable service isn't an example repentance. You can be appreciative and show generosity to someone without it indicating a sense of remorse or repentance. For example if a firefighter saved my kitten from a burning building, and I wanted to give him a new car as a thank you, that isn't an act of repentance on my part. Gratitude yes, but not repentance. You can be grateful and not have it change your moral compass.

It's established from the start that Xanatos was very generous with those he's found useful, or those he's fond of. As for "setting and example for his son", Xanatos hasn't made any indication in the show that this is a factor on how he interacts with the Gargoyles at all.

[Xanathos evolved significantly. He started out caring only about himself. Then he learned to care for another, and consequently he began to learn to care for how his actions impacted others around him. By Vows, Xanathos is actually starting to care what his parents think of him again. By The Gathering, Xanathos has really started to consider what kind of father and role-model he'll be for his son.]

Xanatos and Fox were a couple before the Gargoyles came on the scene. I think his feelings for Fox and his capacity to "care" were existing character traits prior to the Gargoyles appearance and not a result of their presence. To care for Fox is not something he somehow "learned" to do after the Gargoyles showed up. While Xanatos was reluctant to admit his feelings for Fox to others, its clear from the episode "Leader of the Pack" (the first that actually shows them together) that he had feelings for Fox and that they predated the Gargoyles involvement. This relationship and the care in it wasn't something "learned" during the course of the show, but an existing facet of Xanatos that was being revealed to the audience. Just because it was new to the people watching didn't mean Xanatos only learned how to care and love in the course of that episode (or a string of episodes).

I don't think anyone can say Xanatos didn't care what his dad thought until Vows because one of the major points of Vows was the introduction to the audience of Petros Xanatos and showing Xanatos *did* care what his father thought-- it's part of his motive for inviting his father to the wedding. These feelings weren't "new" or something he "learned" on the show or as a result of things in the show. Again, this was a facet of Xanatos revealed to the audience as a pre-existing part of Xanatos' personality, not new and evolving traits.

[He thinks Alex deserves a better father than the David Xanathos we meet in Awakenings. He's right, and hopefully he'll be able to give Alex just that. He certainly - seems -to be trying to do that based on his later actions towards the Manhattan Clan. ]

Xanatos has never indicated by word or deed any doubts about presenting a worthy role model for his son by simply being himself, David Xanatos.

Quote from Hunters Moon when Xanatos is making fun of Matt Bluestone.

Xanatos: "Alex, can you say harassment?" *the baby coos and gurgles and Xanatos rubs his cheek against his son's affectionately* "I knew that you could."

There is no "I was a bad man but now I have a kid and will be a good man to be a good role model for him" expression by Xanatos at all. After all, Xanatos was never mean or unpleasant to begin with. He was cheerfully willing to go after what he wanted with a certain lack of moral inhibitions. Since the Gargoyles have these moral inhibitions and Xanatos wants to make them comfortable while they live together, I do not doubt he'll keep his more morally questionable actions hidden from them. But there is no indication by Hunters Moon and the Journey ( I don't really count the rest of the Goliath Chronicles, but even then there wasn't anything I remember as repentance) that Xanatos has repented anything, or that his methods of accomplishing his goals have changed at all. He has adjusted his assessment of the Gargoyles (valued allies instead of mere possessions) and their place in his life, but there have been no professions of remorse on his part for past actions.

mc
Mooncat
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 03:02:14 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Apparently my left side is my good side.

Lain> <<have.. less qualms>>: Fewer. Sorry, once I leaned the difference, it was hard not to let it bug me.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:42:38 PM
IP: 68.37.214.185

fire storm>> <<So Demona needs to "find somebody who’s less fussy about morality," eh? Now, where would she find some Bad Guys like that?>> heh.. while some members may have.. less qualms about the morality of their actions - you have to keep in mind the lineage of certain members of the group. id wager demonas more likely to find them more of a hindrance than a help.. i mean.. *cough* just from a speculative point of view, of course ;)
lain
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:48:34 PM
IP: 67.69.173.221

TGS not really spoilers:
Why don't they ask Macbeth for a ride? I mean, he HAS offered to help!

So Demona needs to "find somebody who’s less fussy about morality," eh? Now, where would she find some Bad Guys like that?
Fire Storm
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:21:10 PM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Mooncat >>

No, I'd disagree with you here. I wouldn't say Fox and Xanathos are on the straight and narrow, but they certainly repented their abuse of the gargoyles and tried to make restitution after the Clan helped save Alex from Oberon in the Gathering, Part II.

Xanathos really doesn't - need - the gargoyles for protection anymore - since Oberon is gone - but he tries to do right by them anyway. He knows he treated Goliath and Co. like crap. He knows he's setting a terrible example of his son. He knows he owes them more than he can ever repay.

Xanathos evolved significantly. He started out caring only about himself. Then he learned to care for another, and consequently he began to learn to care for how his actions impacted others around him. By Vows, Xanathos is actually starting to care what his parents think of him again. By The Gathering, Xanathos has really started to consider what kind of father and role-model he'll be for his son.

He thinks Alex deserves a better father than the David Xanathos we meet in Awakenings. He's right, and hopefully he'll be able to give Alex just that. He certainly - seems -to be trying to do that based on his later actions towards the Manhattan Clan.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 09:52:07 PM
IP: 66.30.158.19

Todd - Actually, I don't think it was ever established that Xanatos or Fox regretted or repented any of their actions. Their being appreciative of the Gargoyles for help protecting their son and the human race as a whole (since they are part of the package) is more an extension of their self interest than an indication of any sort of "repent and be forgiven" mentality.

>^,,^<

Mooncat
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 09:33:55 PM
IP: 68.102.0.23

KAIOTO - Re Sir Bors: you might want to read Book Three, Chapter 29 of "The Once and Future King" some time. This chapter consists of Arthur and Guinevere discussing Sir Bors' adventures (the same we dealt with in the flashback) including some of the issues that you brought up (it ends with their discussing over why the hermit and Sir Colgrevance had to die).

Incidentally, based on my own study of the original Grail legends in the Middle Ages, I do think that you made a good analysis of the Grail's stance on innocence, sin and forgiveness. In the earlier version of the story, where Percival rather than Galahad is the Grail quester, Percival does achieve the Grail in the end, but had committed a few bad deeds before setting out on the quest that he had to atone for (he ran off to become a knight, abandoning his mother who promptly died of grief, killed a knight in magnificent red armor so as to take the armor for himself, and got a lady in trouble with her husband because he helped himself to her food and her ring - thanks to a misunderstanding on his part of some instructions that his mother had given him - which caused her husband to mistakenly believe that she had been unfaithful to him).

(And "Gargoyles" did, in general, take a stance of forgiveness to those who had committed bad deeds - provided that they did repent of them: the Captain of the Guard, Princess Katharine, the Magus, Leo, Una, Jason Canmore, Dingo, and even Xanatos and Fox all end up undergoing some sort of reconciliation with the protagonists. I would say that, from the point of view of the animated series, any crime can be forgiven - provided that the perpetrator repented.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 06:33:59 PM
IP: 171.75.194.56

<< PENDRAGON COMMENTS * SPOILERS >>

Well, another enjoyable episode, to be sure.

The main issue involving working with deciding to accept a dark bargain or not was certainly well done and involved.

In the other respect, however, I think some of the issues of ethical behavior are overlooked.

I understand the themes of the Trials of Sir Bors:

The parts about his brother being beaten made sense to me. You can't put the lesser suffering of your kin above the greater suffering of a stranger.

The part about begging his brother's forgiveness, however, strike me as a little strange. This knight who is sworn to protect the innocent and uphold justice just stands around and grovels while his brother mercilessly murders a Hermit and another Knight? That doesn't make any sense. Make your ammends and contrition, sure, but do it on your own time - not at the expense of the lives of others.

The situation where the woman will kill herself if Bors does not sin with her strikes me as a manageable situation. You must attempt to save someone without enabling their sins. On the other hand, she is also threatening to have her hand-maidens kill themselves. I guess I could live with that as well, since it is their choice to act so foolishly.

Now, if it wasn't a matter of choices, but a matter of innocents coming to harm by another's hand - then the situation would be far more difficult morally. If sullying your soul will save a dozen innocents, is it not selfish in an extreme to cherish yourself more than those others? You are basically a hostage at that point. But, Bors was not held hostage in such a way, so he made his choices and left them to their own.

I liked the part where the clueless Arthur finds himself barred from the Grail without even knowing it.

I did find it odd that no one ever brings up the May Day Decree in relationship to Arthur's pursuit of the Grail.

I disagree with Airwalker's evaluation of Arthur and Merlin in relation to their past misdeeds. Innocence proves nothing. Having black marks on one's past does not necessarily make one evil in the present. The Grail does not look for the innocent (if any could claim to be such) - rather one who is holy. The true pentatent can achieve holiness. The hypocrit can still give truthful, sound advice and set a good example with the rest of his years.

That is one of the wonderful things about having a future.

No, I think the true problem is that neither Arthur nor Merlin ever express a notion of true contrition for the worst of their misdeeds. Until they do so, they can not achieve the state of holiness required to achieve the Holy Grail.

I agree with Airwalker that Lancelot probably should have mentioned something to Arthur about his misdeeds while he was dwelling on his own. Merlin was also setting himself up for a rather hard fall along the lines of removing the beam from his eye before clearing the speck from another's. OK, so Demona has WAY more than a speck in her eye there, but still, Merlin has "issues" to resolve.

Perhaps more later, but I've got to head out.

Keep up the good work!

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 05:54:30 PM
IP: 208.204.155.241

TODD - You wrote: [Greg responds... But you're missing the appeal of the story.]

The point here though is that its something interesting that the character and overall storyline has to deal with; I don't at all deny that. Having Arthur as not just a flawed hero but even committing acts of complete evil for what he saw was the greater good is interesting. The problem when it comes down to TGS is that the character we have is in complete conflict with the flawed individual we are expecting to get.

You wrote: [I found out that Arthur was portrayed as looking back on it with guilt and shame still in Broceliande in the present day]

The thing is that the guilt and shame seems to be a passing thing; he mentions guilt and a desire to repent and then moves on from it in overall storyline with amazing speed. From one story to the next, the guilt just doesn't carry over - so that when it does pop up from time to time it feels jarring; either its something that he still feels for and is constantly trying to deal with or its something he's gotten over. If he's gotten over it then he shouldn't keep bringing it up - it undermines the heroic picture that the plotline is trying to keep us believing in.

You wrote: [and was also mentioned as having, in the aftermath of the massacre, offering compensation to the parents of the babies whom he had drowned and "undergoing public penance".]

Compensation and public penance (which probably amounted to prayer and perhaps a self ordered flogging) is pathetic as retribution for what he did. The problem is that he can never be forgiven for what he did and he seems to be under the impression that he can be, that perhaps he even has been already.

You wrote: [I'll admit myself, also, that I don't think that I've managed to get quite as strong a grasp on Arthur's character as I have on Merlin's or Morgana's.]

I think that you write Arthur very well as a questing hero who in modern times does care strongly for Merlin in a sort of conflicted father/brother/son sort of way. The problem really comes down to that Medieval Arthur conflicts strongly with Modern Arthur and the two aren't being properly connected to each other. Modern Arthur isn't really dealing well/at all with the problems Medieval Arthur throws into his backstory. If Medieval Arthur is a part of Modern Arthur then it has to have a huge effect on him. At the moment they are almost like two seperate characters; that tends to be the area where my comments tend to be directed at.

You wrote: [I may be biased here, but I believe that our takes on Merlin and Morgana do make them come across as figures who are recognizably the figures from Arthurian legend in question, and yet uniquely handled for TGS.]

I agree. That tends to be how Merlin and Morgana are handled. But they are characters who have very different circumstances from Arthur. Both are immortals (or at least long lived mortals) and the changes between them then and now can be easily dealt with. They have simply had the time to develop into the characters we see in TGS. Merlin for example has had the time to grow and change, to see the wrong in what he did even if he is not yet ready to deal with it when he is confronted with it by Morgana. And when he lapses into old ways or thought patterns, its doesn't feel out of place. Arthur doesn't have that thousand year period of growth to mesh his Legendary Version with the TGS version.

FIRESTORM - You wrote: [NO ONE in 12 hours on a STORY DAY?!?!?]

Here: :-)

**CURRENT TGS COMMENTS**

Lancelot and Arthur - I liked the continuation of the conversation from last week although I felt that a little more tension should have been present. Even putting aside the fact that Arthur might not be sure this is Lancelot (and even the suspicion that it is should just add layers of tension to the conversation considering how things ended between him, Arthur, and Gwen), don't they still have the whole more recent love triangle with Elaine to still hover over them slightly, even if it has been resolved?

I'm glad that someone brought up all the particular difficulties that Arthur is going to have GrailHunting. That is really the high point of Duval's appearance, although I would much prefer that some of the heroes bring up some of these common sense ideas first. This time I don't mind so much though since the travelling to Avalon would have delayed serious planning of the Quest, Merlin is distracted and Duval just got a chance to bring the points up first. But why is it that villains and neutrals are the only ones who can plan ahead? :-)

I also liked the idea that Duval brought up but that didn't really get much attention - Griff. The fact that he turns to stone every day slows the entire group down and costs them precious time. Perhaps this isn't the right quest to have a Gargoyle on. If they were going via Avalon then it would be more understandable but travelling normally just causes an enormous headache. While I want the series to maintain a strong connection the GARGOYLES universe through actually having a Gargoyle on the team (to be honest I would have prefered two - Griff and Brianna; but you already knew that ;-) ) in the story itself it doesn't make much sense to do so.

I wasn't too happy with how Duval slipped into Camelot-speak so easily; he's been alive a long time and his speech patterns shouldn't revert so easily. Not to mention calling Arthur "my leige" after all that has happened is a bit of a stretch. There should be a little bad blood left between them. Duval shouldn't be so mellow and Arthur shouldn't be so demurring. (When he asked Duval for permission to leave to speak to his Knights, it felt out of place; Arthur is a man who still holds himself as a King and has been taking in a best case scenario to someone who was in good times a subordinate Knight - he shouldn't be asking for permission but just outright stating that he has to think about it and then walking away when he wishes.)

I liked the Knightly council although I felt that the entire course of the discussion missed the point. I liked that King Arthur was holding court so to speak to ask for advice on what to do. But the Knights felt way too passive almost like they either aren't thinking of the right arguements or don't want to bring them up.

Arthur spends a good chunk of the time talking about honor and integrity which (especially given the most recent discussion we've been having) just feel hollow. Unless modern Arthur is trying to overcompensate for his past misdeeds then all this honor talk is just hypocrisy on his part.

The ultimate argument is not should they work with the Illuminati but "Exactly How far are you willing to go to cure Merlin?" Half the Knights behave for a chunk of the conversation like the Illuminati may be trustable and that all the past conflict was a matter of poor communication that can now be overcome by dealing with the head of the Society itself. And the other Half is completely against the Illuminati for solid reasons (nothing more solid than having been attacked by them) but ignore the potential benefits in a short term allience. Its a good split but the real bottom line is that trusting the Illuminati is irrelevent; given past experience odds are good they will betray you. The argument veers off onto this entire trust split rather than on the substance of what Duval has brought up. The Knights are broke and can't travel freely. Do they continue the way they are or try the new road that has opened up in front of them?

The only real question is "should you use them to help your cause or not?" Not should "we trust them?" or "have they changed?" or "are they going to betray us?" The bottom line is "Just what am I willing to do to save Merlin?" The Illuminati aren't asking for anything in return at this point and if they do later, who says you have to give them anything? Since when has a promise made to a group of untrustworthy villains meant anything? Once the Knights get to the Grail, the Allience is over anyway. (That is the bottom line of the offered allience - help in GETTING TO the Grail, not help in GETTING the Grail.) A King would look at it that way and not whine about how he would like things to be; instead Arthur goes on and on about honor and integrity. Either you play the game to the limit or just go home and let Merlin live out his last days in peace, but don't make up excuses.

I have to say that this season Mary has been written really interesting although the lack of confidence at the council suddenly introduced once she got the title of Squire comes out of nowhere - she has never hesitated to give her opinion before, so why get all self conscious about it now? I really don't think a demeaning title like Squire would really hobble her ability to stick her nose into the heart of the conversation and freely state her opinion.

I also felt that when Merlin left the council, that his leaving was jarring - Merlin shouldn't have to be asking for permission to get up and leave. Despite the age change he's been in since TGS began, he's still always supposed to be above Arthur in an unstated way. (Sort of like in the PRINCE AND THE PAUPER, how whatshisname who helped out the Prince when he was poor was permitted to sit in his presence while everyone else had to stand. Merlin is above the King/Knight rules.)

Merlin feeling bad about the choice he thinks that Arthur is going to be forced into makes sense although only because I can believe that Merlin is in such a constant state of confusion and fear that he's not going to judge the situation as well as he normally would. His jump to taking Demona's offer makes sense in that situation although to be honest what she is offering him are the realistic options for a fair price. He and the others seemed to have latched onto the idea that the Grail will cure him without any real evidence that it will or that they can even come close to the Grail. All they have are some cryptic comments from Titania and they are turning their backs on all other options to pursue this one. They didn't even bother to send some of the Knights to research the other options - what if Titania is wrong or she was misinterpreted? What if the Grail rejects them? What if the Grail can't cure them?

Demona still feels more like an added intrusion to the story rather than an organic part of it; while the comparison between her offer to Merlin and Duval's offer to Arthur do go together, her appearance showed up with no buildup and feels stitched on. Even the attempt to graft it on further with Mary's little childhood story just made it stand out more. It feels like an attempt to add Mary to the extended Canmore Family as a distant relative for no particular reason other than that Demona showed up. (If during the Demona/Merlin conversation something had been thrown in about Mary feeling that Demona reminded her of something she heard once it may have felt more organic; as it is it feels like it pops up here out of nowhere.)

On top of that Demona seems much more reactionary than I would have figured she would be. She has always been cool and composed when trying to strike a deal and here she tends to go from an air of contempt to angry outbursts. Even given the circumstances she is in at the moment, I think that she would be a bit more subdued in interaction and reaction. After all its not like she has an detailed plan that required Merlin specifically; (there isn't really any builtup to the fact of why she would need or want Merlin specifically after all.) The way she was dealing with him, it feels like he was essentially interchangeable with anyone else powerful she could always recruit.

(And as for his comment on her getting someone with a more flexible ethic and morals, that just stood out to me; his past isn't much better than Demona's and him saying something like that to her deserves a reply from her rather than just having her get angry and glide off. She was offering him realistic options after all - the least he could have done was be nice in his rejection of them.)

I liked the picture by the way - Mary comforting Merlin is well done; the mood the picture gives into what Merlin might be thinking as Demona leaves is very strong.

The Camelot flashback was well placed and made sense to have although given that Arthur didn't really want to ally in the first place, all it really did give him was a good excuse. It felt more like a justification for a decision he had already made rather than something that helped him make up his mind.

All in all its a good way to get the Illuminati involved overall but eliminate their direct involvement in the GrailHunt. If Arthur had agreed its possible that Lancelot or some representative would have to join the Knights. It also sets Merlin away from any realistic cure or any realistic search - no thinking about ways to get cured beyond the Grail and no bothering to look for Morgana who might have a cure. The only problem here is that while Lancelot talks about his failure, nothing seems to click for anyone else on the fact that except for Mary and perhaps Griff, the Grail would most likely reject all of them, with Arthur and Merlin in particular. If Lancelot can be rejects for inpure thoughts whats going to happen to Merlin and Arthur? Why can't anyone realistically point out to those two that the odds are stronger that the Grail will torture and kill them rather than cure Merlin?

**END OF CURRENT TGS COMMENTS**
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 04:51:09 PM
IP: 12.88.200.45

Guess I'm going to be the one to get the ball rolling.

SPOILERS for TGS PENDRAGON
***********************************************************
Good story that tied up the loose ends that were left off at the end of the first chapter. I also enjoyed the artwork. THe scene was drawn beautifully.

I'm glad that both Arthur and Merlin declinded from the outside help of the Illuminati and Demona.

Seeing Duvals actions and how he feels aboutthe society I wonder if he ever regretted becoming immortal.

I chewed my lip to keep from chuckling when demona mentioned that she would be spared from what evil little Offspring would come from Merlin...What little does she know.

Speculation thoughts: I wonder if Mary's Great Grandmother is Fiona Canmore. The batwinged blue skinned red haired demon trying to end the world reminds me of "The Last"

and a question...does the Grail usually appear in Churches?

*************SPOILERS End**********************************

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 04:16:57 PM
IP: 4.72.71.157

Firestorm > They all must be reading.
Mecord's Cat
UT
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:43:37 PM
IP: 12.255.1.249

...
Ok, I am at a loss for words!

NO ONE in 12 hours on a STORY DAY?!?!?
Fire Storm
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:19:32 PM
IP: 66.72.178.104

TGS prouldy presents a Pendragon Season 4 Story . . .

Choices part 2

Written by Todd Jensen

Outline by Todd Jensen

Original Artwork by Karen Blackwell

Click my name, go to the link at the top of the cr that says "Current Episode", or visit http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/ce.html to
read this week's story.
DPH - [<--Click here to read this week's story]
AR, USA
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:04:31 AM
IP: 204.94.193.17

They made me trim my beard for my PBK picture. It's a lot more bristly now, and I can't stroke it as well.

Jaden> <<about two hours ago I was tired. Now I'm wide awake>>: Second wind maybe?

Fire Storm> <<Only problem is that I haven't done any drugs>>: Maybe you're only hallucinating that you haven't.
<<That should be illegal>>: Shall we start a lobbying group?
<>: The mysql databases currently on the machine are: KqC, adult_mgc, creditcard_info, demona_obsession_org, duncan, fanfic, gathering, mgc, mgcforum, mysql, newtwig, phpcustomer, q3matador, satamsonic_com, sonicforumDB, tts_demo, tts_support.
<<if you have suggestions on setting it up>>: How about changing date's column name to released, so a null value would make more sense from the name (and maybe also change the column name to title). For the pictures table would it be title/pictureurl/storytitle/artist, or would you want something else, and are you going to link illustratedby in the story table to the picture title? It looks like the staff will want a column for storydate, for when the story takes place in continuity. Will writtenby be an array to deal with multiple authors?
<<you can take care of what they asked you for the rest, ok?>>: Sounds good to me. I think I should be able to easily enough tack on whatever I'll do to your work. And I should be able to add columns that won't bother you if I think of any.

Niamhgold> <<get-burned-in-places-that-can't-be-mentioned-despite-SPF-45>>
: Did you remember to lotion up under the edge of the suit?
<<who the *&^% designed women's bathing suits?>>: Men and women who want them to attract men.
<<drink-soda-in-lieu-of-water>>: I do that all the time.
<<Too bad I'm years too late>>: Sure you are... One year we had much fun with dollar store pellet guns. http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~mjbrown/jeff.jpg

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, July 28, 2003 11:39:21 PM
IP: 68.37.214.185

DPH: Do you have Hudson's contact info? If so, can you e-mail it to me at fs AT mysticstorm.com?

Thanx.
Fire Storm
Monday, July 28, 2003 07:49:21 PM
IP: 208.143.21.10

KAIOTO - I'll admit myself, reading those flashback scenes that I wrote for Season One of "Pendragon", that a lot of them could have been done better; they do strike me now as somewhat stilted. Probably the only thing that I can say in defense was that (as I've mentioned before) back then we were approaching "Pendragon" more as a lot of "Arthurian retelling" scenes than a proper series in its own right - and even that, I believe, isn't a good defense since that was clearly a poor course to take on it.

I'll admit myself, also, that I don't think that I've managed to get quite as strong a grasp on Arthur's character as I have on Merlin's or Morgana's. I may be biased here, but I believe that our takes on Merlin and Morgana do make them come across as figures who are recognizably the figures from Arthurian legend in question, and yet uniquely handled for TGS. Arthur, I'm far less certain about. I fear that he's come across - in how I've handled him, at least - as a more generic Arthur. (Actually - and I'm hesitant about saying this because I don't want to make this appear as if I'm trying to blame this on somebody else - I'm not certain that the Arthur of "Gargoyles", as portrayed in "Avalon Part Three" and the episode "Pendragon", came across that vividly either, at least, not compared to his fellow "famous medieval survivor" Macbeth - who I believe was definitely realized effectively in "Gargoyles" as a figure who is a unique interpretation of the Shakespearean Scottish king, yet believably "Macbeth" at the same time.)

I do hope that, if I was writing something about the impact that the May Day Decree made on Arthur's life today, it'd be a lot better. But as it is, I'll have to agree with your assessment of the scene.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 28, 2003 06:42:27 PM
IP: 171.75.194.110

OMG!!!! ROTFLMAO!!

Check this out:

"Silence of the Lambs: The Musical"

Someone put a-LOT of effort into this. It's a riot. Some of the links are full samples.

Click my name or go to: http://www.silencethemusical.com/
Leo - [<- It's BRILLIANT!! :-)]
Monday, July 28, 2003 05:58:32 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Todd >>

<< I decided after reading a little more of the debate over the May Day Decree to look over our take on it in "The Last Enchantment Part Two", back in Season One. In reading it over, I found out that Arthur was portrayed as looking back on it with guilt and shame still in Broceliande in the present day, and was also mentioned as having, in the aftermath of the massacre, offering compensation to the parents of the babies whom he had drowned and "undergoing public penance". Those of you who are interested might want to look at the scene (it's near the start of "The Last Enchantment Part Two"). >>

[MARTY] I know the part you are talking about. I read it over again just to be certain.

Honestly, I felt the recount lacked feeling. It was like Arthur was dryly reading a text to a classroom. It did not evoke passion, pain, or guilt. It seemed to emphasize more the consequences of the action involving destabalizing the long-term future of Camelot and the mystery behind the imposter of Merlin than anything else. It was just too cold, too calculating.

Even the mention of restitution and public penance was too trite. Penance may be a relatively simple, finite action, but true contrition is a life-long journey. Trying to live a good and virtuous life with hands bloodied - bloodied so that no water will ever wash them clean in the eyes of your soul - that is not something that a person undertakes lightly. You must live with something haunting your mind every waking hour and preying on you in your dreams. And yet, to seek peace in forgetting the crime only serves to cause your contrition to fail.

Arthur's crime was a truly damnable deed. Contrition for such an offense against God and men is the kind of thing that shapes your character for a lifetime. Yet we don't see it come through in his behavior or thoughts often enough to be important. In that respect, it leaves a disconnect.

Actually, I really don't get that much feeling out of Arthur during a lot of his scenes. It is harder to identify with him than someone like Rory, who expresses himself so clearly, and who's emotions and responses seem to be more organic.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Monday, July 28, 2003 11:09:15 AM
IP: 208.204.155.241

A moment of Silence for Bob Hope.
Spacebabie
Monday, July 28, 2003 10:29:21 AM
IP: 4.72.76.6

It was Artscape here in Baltimore yesterday, right in my backyard. It was nice to walk out the door, grab funnel cakes and smoothies, and then run inside. It was *not* good when all the trash was left in my backyard, though.

Mara: Happy Birthday! Enjoy your Chocolate Demolition Cake^TM (or might I recommend the even tastier Tunnel of Fudge cake) ;) Ooh, and before I forget--give me a quick heads-up when the art show stuff gets mailed out--found out I'm moving out of my sublet (the Baltimore Address) on August 31st, so hopefully stuff will be sent before then ;P

Gside: Eh, there's not much of a story--It was your basic go-to-the-beach, sit-in-the-sun, get-absorbed-in-the-book-"Survivor", get-burned-in-places-that-can't-be-mentioned-despite-SPF-45 (who the *&^% designed women's bathing suits?!?), and drink-soda-in-lieu-of-water. Let's just say that the only thing my body wanted Saturday night was saltines and koolaid ;)

I think I know have gone through enough Koolaid to actually get those little toys you send away for. Too bad I'm years too late ;)
Niamhgold
Monday, July 28, 2003 09:07:01 AM
IP: 146.145.186.33

Gside: <Hallucinations. That could mean you were taking some good drugs>
Only problem is that I haven't done any drugs.
<There wasn't anything on the box about alcohol soluble or something?>
...
Didn't even check. Only thought of acetone
<Soy. I blame my brother, !$@# vegetarian>
EWWWW! That should be illegal!
<Do you know what sql databases tgsstaff has permission to?>
I severely doubt they have any permissions. Gotta contact Hudson...
I know that fanfic.g-f.org is mySQL/PHP, but I don't know what other domains/subdomains/etc have permission to access that.
<So far I've been asked to asutomate most of the staff functions>
Hmm... so, how about this: Since I pretty much have the story database set up, I'll take care of that (if you have suggestions on setting it up, though, it would be appreciated. Mostly I just have the data) and you can take care of what they asked you for the rest, ok? I really don't have much interest in automating the entire site. The story database just happened to be a part of what I was working on for LM.
Fire Storm
Monday, July 28, 2003 02:54:56 AM
IP: 66.72.178.104

You know about two hours ago I was tired. Now I'm wide awake. Don't know why, just have this sudden rush of energy. I could stay away all night if I wanted. I'm a night-owl but after working all day I should feel a little drained. This ever happen to anyone else?

Green Baron- You're going to Humphreys? My uncle might be going there. At least you're going to be near the Capital. That's a nice area. (Don't worry, you get paid extra there too)

July B-days: so many people I know were born in July. Three friends, an uncle, my twin sister and myself had one on the 24th. What is it about this month?

Later.
Jaden - [jaden1444@aol.com]
Monday, July 28, 2003 02:25:04 AM
IP: 4.46.141.227

Fire Storm> <>: Hallucinations. That could mean you were taking some good drugs.
<>: There wasn't anything on the box about alcohol soluble or something?
<<What the hell IS it?>>: Soy. I blame my brother, !$@# vegetarian.
<<mySQL and PHP>>: Excellent. That's just how I did my software engineering project. If you want to see it, all the files are on my comcast account under fbb.

Niamhgold> <>: That sounds like there's a story behind it.

Happy birthday Mara.

Spacebabie> <<True Yahoo has auctions too>>: To repeat myself, why limit it to auctions?
<>: Evil laugh part three.
<>: I do reccommend the anime One Piece. Especially the character Roronoa Zoro.

Fire Storm> <<This is my first mySQL/PHP project I have done>>: And my second, if I get started. Do you know what sql databases tgsstaff has permission to?
<<Have you been asked to do a total graphical re-do of the site, or only coding?>>: So far I've been asked to asutomate most of the staff functions, specifically "search engine for secure site/automated process for releasing stories/automated process for updating breakdowns, edits, art assignments, and finals page". I don't think I'll come up with a good way to do a search, besides using file_get_contents() and !stristr(,), looping through all files.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, July 28, 2003 12:35:47 AM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Gside: 
Weird... I only started it last Saturday...
This is my first mySQL/PHP project I have done, but it doesn't seem too hard... so I will most likely run into problems!
Hell, I am the one that feels like I am stepping on toes!

I had no idea that they wanted to do this! I swear!
Have you been asked to do a total graphical re-do of the site, or only coding?
Fire Storm
Sunday, July 27, 2003 08:04:27 PM
IP: 66.72.178.104

Mara> Happy birthday. :)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Sunday, July 27, 2003 07:15:11 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

*takes a cake and a Zima*

Happy birthday "Other Me!" *hugs*
Revel
Sunday, July 27, 2003 07:09:33 PM
IP: 172.141.244.87

Fire Storm> I haven't done anything yet, I was only pulled in thursday I think it was. I'm still waiting on what they want me to do and passwords. So if you want to farm anything out to me, go for it. Otherwise, I'll try not to get in the way of anything you're doing.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, July 27, 2003 06:48:28 PM
IP: 68.37.214.185

Sorry for the double post, but -

I decided after reading a little more of the debate over the May Day Decree to look over our take on it in "The Last Enchantment Part Two", back in Season One. In reading it over, I found out that Arthur was portrayed as looking back on it with guilt and shame still in Broceliande in the present day, and was also mentioned as having, in the aftermath of the massacre, offering compensation to the parents of the babies whom he had drowned and "undergoing public penance". Those of you who are interested might want to look at the scene (it's near the start of "The Last Enchantment Part Two").
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, July 27, 2003 06:47:55 PM
IP: 171.75.194.103

Incidentally, Greg Weisman had one or two things to say about the attempt to drown Mordred at birth in "Ask Greg", some time ago, in a "conversation" with Aris Katsaris (it's a pity that Aris no longer comes by here, by the way; I always did like hearing from him. He hasn't shown up for quite a while in the Station 8 comment room, either.)

Regarding the May Day Decree you told me:
<<You're forgetting Moses, which I think is a much more direct parallel. >>

No, actually I wasn't forgetting Moses - but unlike you, I considered his case to be a more indirect parallel. The genocide ordered by the Pharaoh was made for reasons of population control. Both Herod's massacre and the May Day Decree ordered a slaughter so as to find and destroy only *one*, who was feared he would destroy the ruler.

Likewise, Moses is placed on the boat by his mother so as to be saved from the killing. Perseus and Mordred are placed in the boat by the *ruler* (who is also their father or grandfather), so as to be drowned...

Btw, it seemed to me you were avoiding the question? Do you feel that the May Day Decree took place in the Gargoyles Universe? I admit it still sounds to me a very non-Arthurian thing to do...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greg responds...

Look, I'm not going to tell you now.

But you're missing the appeal of the story. The difference between all the tales we've sighted and the Arthur/Mordred thing.

In all of those tales, it's the evil tyrant who is decreeing the death of children to save his hide.

With Arthur it's the good guy decreeing the death of children in hopes of destroying this great evil. Do the ends justify the means? Of course not. But that great moral dilemma is fascinating.

recorded on 11-01-00

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, July 27, 2003 06:32:12 PM
IP: 171.75.194.103

Well, I guess wisdom doesn't come with age. That last bit was me. Hee.
Mara
Sunday, July 27, 2003 05:31:26 PM
IP: 152.163.252.196

::unlurks for festivities::

Aw, Spacie... I love unrhyming poetry and that was soo sweet! ::tight hug, yoda speak:: Best Miko Spacie is, hmm.

::happy grinny big time::
Anonymous
Sunday, July 27, 2003 05:29:49 PM
IP: 152.163.252.196

Frell!!!!

My extra slippy shoes caused me to slip on the floor and land on my right hip. Don’t worry folks I’m okay.

Here we are at each others throats over weather or not Arthur was an ass when Arthur are more important to discuss…like Mara’s Birthday

Today is Mara Cordova’s 22nd birthday!

:::Spacebabie wheels in cake and brings out sushi dishes. She serves margaritas, beer, Zima, hard lemonade and for those who don’t drink…old fountain style vanilla, cherry and chocolate cokes.:::

I had been working on this poem for a while and I tried to get it to rhyme, but it wouldn’t work so I banged my head against the wall ad did it free verse.

22 years ago on this day a goddess was born
She who has a cool voice and interesting mind

Mara was born in the land of towers of stone and steel
A creative child with a head of thick curls.

She grew to a lovely you woman with a sharp wit.
Her imagination is colorful and endless like time.

Mara’s writing of original fics is as rare and beautiful as a black rose.
Her MiST’s are funny and clever as Xellos Metallium

Art is fun to look and view, ah the line work so smooth.
She makes lovely images that are as witty as her MiST’s

I wish I were in Texas to pop out of a cake.
And bestow gifts of Wassabi peas, hard lemon, and porn.

Happy Birthday Mara Sama!!!!

Gside<<<Why limit it to Ebay? >>>True Yahoo has auctions too.<<>>I don’t want to know where<<>>I can see a gargoyle with a grasper tail do that. A sword in each hand and one being held by it’s tail

Attila<<<Sadaam Hussein's sons are here right now, and any woman they hit on morphs into Janet Reno. >>>Ha they get their 42 virgins, but they change into Reno…that is justice!<<<which may prompt me to say something perverted ;) >>>You will anyway.

Lain<<<what the hell is this, a TGS comment room or something?>>> Is it? I keep loosing track.<<<its a flame war about TGS! what the hell!? >>>Yeah whatever happened to Flame wars over Religion and erotica?<<<*ahem* *strangulates american military for killing udai and qusai* *cough* >>.Man I’m surprised someone with a knee jerk response didn’t know your were joking.

GregX<<<Please stop>>>Danke<<<I'd make a longer more admin-type post>>>Save that long post for a real flame war.

Niahmgold<<<His rationale was that you could use his head to tatoo any sort of advertising campaign you wanted to, for an entire year. I say he's overpriced ;)>>> Reminds me of http://www.emotioneric.com with the unemployed Eric. “Will emote for food.”

Todd<<<it was Alex (with some coaching from Puck) who got the Coldtrio into separate bodies, rather than Titania.>>>Yeah if I remember Titania was the one who gave Coldstone and Coldfire flesh and blood bodies.

Mooncat<<<among the babies captured and sent into the storm, and of course that was the only baby to survive by floating to shore after the boat goes down and being rescued by a peasant farmer. >>>I’m reminded of both Perseus and Moses

Firestorm<<<Fang?>>>In my ficverse Fang as a clown phobia<<<Why thank you! Frells are cool, aren't they?>>>Frell yeah!

DPH<<<Ok, what about the economic issue for Hudson, Brooklyn, Broadway, Lexington, and Cagney while Elisa and Goliath were away?>>>I always figured that while Elisa was away Matt made sure they had enough food, books, and videos.<<<or what about the economic issue for the Labyrinth clan?>>>Wait a minute Elisa was taking care of the Labyrinth clan?

See ya folks going to look up the letter people and a Jim Henson special
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Sunday, July 27, 2003 02:39:04 PM
IP: 4.72.74.113

FRELL! FRELL! FRELL! FRELL! and finally: FRELL!

Gside: Ok... my e-mail and webserver are down a-frelling-gain. And, as usual, they haven't a clue as to when it will be back up.

Webmanix.com for anyone interested.
Fire Storm
Sunday, July 27, 2003 02:25:33 PM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Gside: How far are you into the TGS database/PHP project? Had I known that you were already involved...

So far, I have the stories table (and most of the CR stuff. Just gotta do the profiles) complete, along with the beginnings of the php info to display the seasons.

My tgs database, stories table is set up like:
storynum, thread, season, date, name, url, ideaby, writtenby, illustratedby

Ex:
269, PEN, 4, 2003-07-22, Choices, Part 1, (full url), Todd Jensen, Todd Jensen, lain

And the PHP output looks exactly like the like it currently is on the site.

If you want to know WHY I am making a complete site database, it was just... well, how I think.
LM wanted an easier way to update the CR Archive/Info, so I started a database. But some pics are from stories, so instead of simply having a link, I plan on just having it lookup the info from another table... can you see where this is going?

SO... if you are working on site coding, go right ahead. If you have a good part of the database done... well... $h17... please send me a copy please so I can adapt the tgscr pages.
Fire Storm - [fs AT mysticstorm.com]
Sunday, July 27, 2003 02:09:33 PM
IP: 208.143.21.10

Airwalker >>

<< The problem here is that TGS Arthur has mainstream Arthur history but is still being played as a modern hero. The two grate against each other very much. >>

I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head. The problem isn't that Arthur's background isn't white-washed, IMO, but that his current character doesn't adequately deal with the realities of his past. That creates disconnect.

I can understand easily rationalizing the bloody deeds involved in nation-building with the necessities of the common defense and common law. But drowning babies to eliminate consequences of your incestuous relationship? That's not something to be taken lightly or dismissed as being "for the greater good." Especially considering Arthur failed to eliminate Mordred AND still killed all those innocent children AND how guilty Arthur seemed to be when confronted with Mordred as an adult.

Mooncat >>

<< King Arthur didn't kill all the babies in an Empire's reach, only the ones in a certain geographic area around his sister's location/holdings. This certainly would be in a War Lord and High King's power. >>

It still isn't a firm foundation to try and build Camelot upon with all the petty, bickering, self-interested warlords Arthur had to placate. Such a deed should have easily undermined Camelot from the get-go - considering how precariously pearched it was.

<< As for Arthur being a nice guy, and nice guys aren't murderers... Ummm a lot of real killers *seem* like nice guys. Unlike in cartoons, they don't all look or act a certain way so it's immediately apparent they have committed some heinous crime. For all we know, the guilt from his crime might have made Arthur that much "better" in an effort to atone for his horrible deed. >>

True, but we have no evidence of this at all. Atoning for such a horrible deed does not cleanse the soul or the psyche of such guilt. We've only seen one indication of Arthur realizing that mass-murder, and that was basically trepidation at the idea of his chances of obtaining the Grail. Arthur hardly seems that broken up about it, which is the main root of the disconnect I see as mentioned above in my response to Airwalker.

I think the two can be reconciled, but as of yet, the story has not done so adequately, IMO.

<>

Actually, I disagree completely.

Oh, sure, the children's programming has always and will always be like that. The producers usually don't have enought time to explain subtleties to children and still make an entertaining product they can sell. It has been like that with books as well. That's just a fact of life from a marketing perspective.

In terms of the garbage that we bombard adolescents and adults with on a regular basis - the virtuous hero is practically dead. I'm not even talking about the viceless hero (though I've met a number of real-life heroes in my day who don't have anything that would be considered a "significant vice.") I'm talking about the fact that the protaganists in most of our pop culture are either anti-heroes, or the lesser of villains.

I think the worst part about it is that the over-the-top sort of wrongs that these protaganists commit are often glossed over as well. People don't come to terms with the evils that they have done, they don't make ammends or apologize for errors. Instead, they act like it doesn't matter and then sort of randomly fall into saving the day for their own personal reasons - and all is forgiven. They are suddenly OK people? That's a steaming pile of horse-crap.

Even just role-models, people are being shown cheating, lying politicians in power. They are seeing unrepentent drug-dealers and gangsters turning their criminal pasts into record contracts. They see a parade of sports misogynist sports stars. They are seeing sexually abusive people from every flavor of public service - from government to medicine to education to religion.

No, most of what we see in the modern world portrays a very unrealist view of the human condition. We are constantly shown the worst of the human race in order to believe that we can get by with not being as bad as them (or just not being caught). We are reinforced to the concept that redemption is a joke and that there are not "real" heroes in the world. Worst of all, we're taught that this is perfectly acceptable. We can get by with a "C" or a "D" in "being a decent human-being 101" due to the ridiculous grade-curve of the popular media.

<< when faced with an unheroic characteristic for hero of legend or classic story is to "make it nice" and palateable and consistent with a preconceived notion of what a hero should be instead of what the story/legend had down originally. >>

Alternatively, we could just come to grips with the fact that just because someone was a hero to another culture, doesn't make them heroes in - our - culture. If all cultural values were created equal, we'd have no reason to refine our own. Nazi Germany held up Hitler as their hero. Fact of the matter is, he was a monster and my evaluation of him as a monster is far more accurate than their evaluation of him as a hero.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Sunday, July 27, 2003 01:37:11 PM
IP: 66.30.158.19

10th.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:45:34 PM
IP: 68.37.214.185

NINE!
Mecord
Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:06:47 PM
IP: 12.255.15.248

ATE!
Dezi
Sunday, July 27, 2003 11:19:36 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

7th, but not in heaven--I survived being dehydrated *just* so that I could come into work today ;)
Niamhgold
Sunday, July 27, 2003 11:14:15 AM
IP: 146.145.186.33

Sixth!

Fire Storm > Glue traps aren't "live" traps. What typically happens with a glue trap is the mouse starts sniffing to figure out why it can't move its legs, touches its nose to the glue, and suffocates. If you want to want to catch mice humanely, you need to get the little box traps with the one way door that you bait, then the mouse goes in, trips the door, and is stuck in the box until you let it out.
Patrick
Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:51:47 AM
IP: 65.43.144.120

5th!

DPH - You wrote: [what about the economic issue for the Labyrinth clan?]

I figure that the Mutates specifically lean on Peter and Diane Maza for a lot of financial support. Plus Talon does have a Human identity even if he doesn't use it anymore. He could always take money that he had saved previously and invest it online or through his parents to generate more capital. Also its always possible that they could ask the residents of the Labyrinth who are able to donate to the upkeep of the place to do so.

You wrote: [what about the economic issue for Hudson, Brooklyn, Broadway, Lexington, and Cagney while Elisa and Goliath were away?]

I always figured that after KINGDOM they got a little help from the Talon and the Labyrinth Clan. Also if they need to generate some funds they could always do what DC's Oracle does - institute a Sin Tax, i.e. take some personal cash off of the Criminals that they happen to catch to fund themselves. (Its not something that seems that heroic but when your choice is to starve or get creative, you get creative. I don't think that they would feel better if they just took food off the shelves of stores without leaving some sort of compensation behind. Under this system they have some way to leave cash behind for food they need.)

TODD - You wrote: [I'm honestly not certain as to how it is that the readers are able to catch things that somehow seem to have passed every one of the production team by;]

Well it is usually easier to see things when dealing with the finished product than it is when actually planning and writing everything out. Also lots of things occur to you when you haven't had anything to do with working on the story but are just reading it. There is a level of detatchment that gives some more clarity than when you are doing any work on it.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:46:08 AM
IP: 12.88.199.11

Raptor - X - <does anyone know when the new season of gargoyles is coming out?> Yes, sometime after Pendragon Season 4 **which is currently being released weekly** finishes airing. It'll be 2004 before Gargoyles Season 4 is released. [No, I don't want to be quoted on that.]
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:15:42 AM
IP: 204.94.193.47

4th!! or at least top 10.
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:09:51 AM
IP: 204.94.193.47

third?
lain
Sunday, July 27, 2003 09:30:37 AM
IP: 65.93.87.27

2nd!
Leo
Sunday, July 27, 2003 08:18:27 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

What's the point of using traps that catch mice alive when you can't free them from the trap?
Here's the story: For about a week, and in the middle of the night, I kept seeing a little brown streak across the floor, which meant one of two things: We have a mouse or I am hallucinating, and I didn't know which answer I liked better.
Hoping that it was just a mouse, I bought some live traps (glue traps) and put them all across a doorway that I once saw the mouse run through. Well, last night, LM was going into the basement (the traps were at the top of the basement steps) and here was this mouse struggling to free it's self from the trap, but it wasn't too successful. SO LM woke me up and told me that we caught a mouse! (So, at least this time, I wasn't hallucinating)
With latex gloves on, I rubbed the mouse's back to keep it calm and I noticed that there was no safe way to remove the mouse from the trap without removing it's legs and/or a lot of skin.
So, not really happy about it, we decided that the most humane thing to do would be to put it out of it's misery. CO2.
It was cute too.

Gside: <This bacon is faker than turkey bacon. I don't even mind turkey bacon>
What the hell IS it?
<You're letting that stop you?>
Well, um... no.

...
Well, $h17. It figures.
<Do you happen to know what kind of software is on the tgs.g-f.org server? SQL, PHP, something else?>
I know that g-f.org is mySQL and PHP, which is why I am learning mySQL and PHP.
<Can you get any wavs of them to set as your computer's sound scheme?>
Aye, but it's not the same.

Still first. Pathetic.
Fire Storm
Sunday, July 27, 2003 07:56:08 AM
IP: 208.143.21.10

FIRST!
Fire Storm and Lady Mystic
Sunday, July 27, 2003 07:44:49 AM
IP: 208.143.21.10