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Rutgers has made the news. Not national so far, but there's always hope. The local entertainment paper, The Medium (with archives at http://www.themedium.net/ ), has come under criticism for racist opinions voiced in its unedited personals section. So far, there's a TV news segment archived on the themedium.net, and a news story at http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_111303_rutgerspaper.html . In conclusion, here's a quote from the serius Rutgers paper: “Many protesters said allowing a forum in which people can voice any opinion is dangerous and can lead to an unsafe environment.”

Vinnie> <<Didn't you know Liberalism is the new world religion>>: I can't tell if you're saying that sarcastically or seriously.

Fire Storm> <<Why do I even bother?>>: He's your father.
<<the three of us are all getting second jobs>>: good luck with that.
<<Hope that helps>>: I don't know, try reading DPH's mind again. But I won't admit to thinking about the thing with the pickle, dowel, and supersonic oscilator.
<<Maybe I should play those numbers too>>: Is it any worse than any other way of picking lotto numbers?
<>: Then write up the script and see if you can't trick The Bizz or someone into drawing it for you.
<<Remember the video scene from A Clockwork Orange?>>: Then I just won't volunteer for any rehabilitation programs.
<>: So do you wanna found the Apathy Party? I'd do it, but I just don't care enough.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:43:08 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Breaking news... Roy Disney has resigned.

In the immortal words of Ron Weasley, "Can we panic NOW?!?"
Patrick - [<-- Roy Disney resigns]
Sunday, November 30, 2003 08:53:06 PM
IP: 65.43.152.72

Yggdrasil: Good luck in Israel. I look forward to your ‘Pendragon’ review.

Lain: Well, one of the recent hiatuses was 16 months...

Spacebabie: I’m very sorry to hear about that.
Ed
Sunday, November 30, 2003 07:49:57 PM
IP: 131.111.8.96

Oh BTW almost forgot, if I sounded a little harsh to anyone I apologize for my the rant. To be brutally honest I did give fair warning when my opinion first came under attack, but I suppose that's not much of an excuse. I just don't respond well when people attack my political view. So I apologize again.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Sunday, November 30, 2003 02:43:59 PM
IP: 216.234.99.252

Dezi: <and the good portion of my entire post earlier didn't say you said that, don't you get it.> All I did was answer your post in which you wrote- "And IF you must insist that I'm a liberal, then DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME I'M AT WAR WITH ANYTHING." You are a very excitable person aren't you, because it sure seemed like that was all that you were saying.

<AND my point was, who started that war?> The War On Terror was started on 9/11 and it's purpose to hunt down Terrorists, or didn't you know that.

<Sure wasn't Ralph Nader. (who, btw, I sure hope doesn't run for president AGAIN).> Hey, it's only fair! You have Nader we have the Reform Party so it balances out. Of course you would never believe that for second simply because of who you are.

<Not so much attack, but point out the holes in your argument.> Well an attack is still an attack. I simply stated my opinions and it was attacked, just because you don't like anything that dissents from your point of view.

<And you're gonna pick apart this post as well, for whatever reason, most likey to make yourself feel better, but you know what?> Well you keep picking apart my posts so I think it is only fair that I get a similar opportunity, or don't you believe in equal time? Oh silly question, of course you don't believe in equal time, otherwise this disscussion would never have happened.

<In the end, I bet you still don't get it.> I get that you don't know what you are talking about half the time.

<Look out for the black 'copters, my friend.> What are you crazy I never ever mentioned Black anything. Besides it's more economical to get to the younger generation through the public school system. I to old and set in my waysto be influenced, a lot like you I suppose.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Sunday, November 30, 2003 02:04:08 PM
IP: 216.234.99.252

On the contrary, I read very well, in two languages. All throughout school I have tested to the highest I could on the reading portion of the standardized tests, so mnah :P.
 and the good portion of my entire post earlier didn't say you said that, don't you get it. The gist of it was that we ARE currently at war (and it will be with pretty much the entire world, if the Administration gets its way, I mean, c'mon, if we had a billion troops, that "axis of evil" crap would be more than just a list.) I SAID that we ARE at war now, and that that war WAS STARTED by our current president, who panders to the conservatives (or does whatever his "cronies" tell him, which usually panders to the conservative, unless its Rove, who tries to make sure that they don't completely shut out the rest of America, because they vote too.) Therefore, if liberals believe that we are at war with the world, well duh, look around you. AND my point was, who started that war? Sure wasn't Ralph Nader. (who, btw, I sure hope doesn't run for president AGAIN).
 Not so much attack, but point out the holes in your argument.
But you know what? Whatever. (and I know you'll post again because you seem like the kind of person to get the last word in on an argument so ha! Preemptive strike!)
I'm pretty much done with you, arguing with you is like arguing with my little sister.... Except she's five so it's usually arguments about who's a bigger silly head and which My Little Pony is prettier. And you're gonna pick apart this post as well, for whatever reason, most likey to make yourself feel better, but you know what? In the end, I bet you still don't get it. And in that, hee hee, I have made my point. Look out for the black 'copters, my friend.
The End.

Dezi
Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:10:38 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Mornings are evil. Not evil in the way I am evil, mind you, but evil in it's own way.
A BAD way. I REALLY hate being at work in the morning.

Thanksgiving... Oh boy... Well, I asked my father for money to help with the wedding and he basically said to put it off for a few months/a year. Thanks a lot dad. Every time I tell him that I had a rough financial time, he says "You should have come to me!", but every frelling time he won't help. Why do I even bother?
SO... the three of us are all getting second jobs to pay for the wedding and to get back out savings account.

Same Sex Marriage: Even though I basically opened that can of worms, I ain't touching it. Thanks to everyone that replied, though. It seems that this CR is generally positive to not negative, so I guess that's good.
...
Oh, what the h3!!...
As long as people are happy together, I don't care who really marries who (aside from the whole legal age sort of thing. THAT should stick around), and they all should have the same legal rights as a "proper" marriage (You know... a M/F marriage, even those ones that have no love out there and they stay married "for the kids" or just because, and they stay in an abusive relationship.)

Green Baron: <I'd recognize the lifelong marriage of two men before I recognize Bill and Hillary's mariage>
Wait... Are you saying that Hillary is NOT a man?

I am a general liberal that wants a lot of rights for big business, and I think that big business should take care of their employees (free health care, family friendly policies, etc), and that any company that DOES do that should get huge tax breaks.

Lynati: <Now, here's a question for the room: Should they legalize Polygamy in all 50 states?>
Sure, why not? I mean, if it is a completely equitable relationship/set of relationships, I don't see why not. And it should go all ways. (All male, all female, 1 female many male, etc) If everyone in the relationship(s) agree, I say it could work.
Hell, given the way the world is, you almost need more than 2 incomes in a house!
Here are the only problems I see:
Look at the extreme Mormons. They marry 14-year-old girls! THAT would have to be abolished. But, then again, it is a relative minority group.
Divorce. Can you imagine how ugly a polygamist divorce would be?
Medical insurance is set up in a tiered setup (rates for single, married, and family). SO, would a three person marriage need to get the family plan, or could they get by on the married?

Todd: <If they make polygamy legal, it should be with the provision that you have to live with all your wives at once>
Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, you should live with anyone/everyone you are married to.

DPH: <how many husbands out there could afford (emotionally, financially, the works) to have more than 1 wife?>
Well, I think that more and more that relationships are getting equal in terms of pay, so that could be a non-issue. As for financially, if it is a working polygamist relationship, the women in a 1M/2F relationship would be married to each other too, not just to him, and it would be hoped that they were friends or more before they got married, so the burden would be more equal.

Gside: <Sorry, you must have been channeling me>
I need better reception. Maybe I should adjust my dish...
*FS takes the dish out of the cupboard, puts food on it, and puts it in the microwave*
Hope that helps
<Sounds like they're selling pretty well over there, so they must be doing it for themselves first>
Yeah... that realization is a bit more disturbing.
Maybe I should play those numbers too.
<Then make your own.>
Bah! I can't draw stick figures!
<Not Bun Bun, but Bunny Boy, Ghastly's furry.>
Oh yeah. That makes sense too.
<Don't you mean men using one of their outputs in the car exhaust output?>
Let me check my notes...

Oh, but that's what you think! Remember the video scene from A Clockwork Orange?
< If you're a conservative under 30, you're heartless; and if you're a liberal over 30, you're brainless.>
I like to think that I fall somewhere in the middle. I almost feel bad for not caring.

Spacebabie: <This morning we had to put Frisky to sleep>
Oh god, I am so sorry!

I know the feeling. My first dog was run over by a car the day before Thanksgiving. And this November has REALLY sucked.
Fire Storm
Sunday, November 30, 2003 08:33:49 AM
IP: 65.114.91.3

Dezi: You don't read very well do you? I did Not say Liberals started any war! I said according to Liberal Theology we are at war with the world. That does not mean Liberals started any war they just believe the world is at war! (Can't you READ) And just for the record I was not the one to start flaming anyone!!! I did not say anything wrong until my opinon in the poll were attacked FIRST.

Gside: Didn't you know Liberalism is the new world religion.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Sunday, November 30, 2003 03:53:43 AM
IP: 216.234.99.223

Lain> <<yes, but ive farted your belly so i can forgive you>>: That, and I meant nothing of what I said.
<<youre not still sick of turkey from all the leftovers youve had to eat for a month>>: Ours is almost gone now. And you could always get a ham for Christmas.

Spacebabie> <<The day before thanksgiving last year Silky died and this year Frisky died two days after>>: My condolences, and that's a real bad string of luck you've been having with late November.

Vinnie> <<Liberal theology>>: Where does God come into it?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, November 30, 2003 12:09:21 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

And as for you Vinnie (sorry guys, I'm a little worked up):
LOL, my butt. Liberal theology is that we are at war with the world? What pie-hole did you pull that out of? And even if that were to make any sense at all, in which group then would you lump peaceniks and war-protesters? Sure didn't seem to me like the conservatives wanted them, the last go-round. And IF you must insist that I'm a liberal, then DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME I'M AT WAR WITH ANYTHING. I just finished looking at a CD full of 300 pics my dad just sent me from the heart of the "Sunni Triangle" in Iraq. There were pics of guys that looked more like they were half octopus, rather than having any legs left to their dead bodies, there was a guy that had his BRAINS leaking out of his head (at least that's what I assumed the bloody mashed potatos oozing from his scalp were). There were GI's crying over the loss of their comrades, their jeeps and humvees scrap metal. And you know what struck me most of all? In order to take those pics, my dad had to be THERE. This wasn't some filter via CBS or NBC. It wasn't all just trapped inside the TV. To me now (not like it wasn't before mind you) its all real. And it makes me sick. SO before you say I'm at war with anything, I'll email you one of those pics. Then you can spout your gibberish rhetoric back at me. Only, though, once you shed tears in the middle of your thanksgiving dinner because you are nervous that next year, there won't be a chance in heaven or hell that your father (or brother or whoever, a GI) won't be joining you. My father and I share our birthday. This year, it's this Tuesday. Next year, will I be spending it looking at a tombstone?
And for what? A war we don't need. Started by who? Sure as hell wasn't the liberals.
LOL my ass.
Dezi
Saturday, November 29, 2003 11:24:56 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Spacebabie: Me and Dottie-dog give our sincere condolences. :(

Dezi
Saturday, November 29, 2003 10:19:15 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Spacebabie: I share your grief. I dunno if you got my email one time about my dog Max, who had to be put to sleep. He was the youngest of two dogs, one day he was fine and jumping about and before we knew it, he had cancer of the spine and there was nothing the vet could do for him. I was there with him when he died, I couldn't bear the thought of leaving him alone to die in that awful veterinary clinic with no one but a stranger.
Storyseeker
Saturday, November 29, 2003 09:05:20 PM
IP: 213.122.172.122

Dezi and lain: Well then I suppose it's a lucky thing that I am not a Diplomat. If I was we would most likely be at war with the whole world. Oh wait.... According to Liberal theology we are at war with the world. Oh well, at least you can't blame me for it. LOL!

Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Saturday, November 29, 2003 02:52:25 PM
IP: 216.234.99.63

Spacebabie:<<This morning we had to put Frisky to sleep>>

:'-(
Leo
Saturday, November 29, 2003 01:38:57 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

It's just not fair. He was the youngest of the dogs. He was born in the house in Ocotober of 1996.

He was put to sleep this morning. The vet tried to do everything she could to make him better, but his kidneys and liver was shot.

This morning we had to put Frisky to sleep. He couldn't pee, he wasnt eating and he hd a difficutl time breathing.

I fucking hate this month and I hate thanksgiving. I'm never going to celebrate it again. The day before thanksgiving last year Silky died and this year Frisky died two days after.

I feel bad because while my father was by Frisky's side I was hear working on a revision and a couple of poems for classes.

My father was crying when he entered the house. This man never cries.
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Saturday, November 29, 2003 12:40:28 PM
IP: 4.72.100.210

Polygamy > Only if it works both ways.

Green Baron > ::Hugs!:: Glad you're doing well, kiddo.

Liberals over 30 tend to be scary because you can't excuse their beliefs on youthful idealism. Therefore, it means they're a: hopelessly naive or b: completely deluded.

Black Friday shopping: Ug. Something to be avoided at all costs.

If you get a chance go see Bubba Ho Tep - Bruce Campbell as Elvis and Ossie Davis as JFK. Funny, scary and some interesting commentary about how society treats the aged.

kathy
Saturday, November 29, 2003 11:02:28 AM
IP: 66.82.195.100

Ok last thing I'm gonna say on this thing, I swear.
Vinnie: <When did I ever use the term evil when I referred to Liberals.> Alright, I'll concede that you didn't _literally_ call liberals evil. But if I had randomly strolled in here, and someone was talking about a group attacking his "Opinions and Beliefs" and no matter what they said, they were still being replied to in a manner full of paranoia that seemed like they were conspiring against the person, no matter who the group I would use the term evil, not as a literal description, but as a hyperbole for something, well, not nice or approved of by the individual. (Yeah sure go ahead and pick that phrase apart and say I'm putting words in your mouth there, because I'm using a different phrase than you, but it still gets the point across that you felt like you were being ganged up upon whether or not in reality you really were.) For me, Wal-mart is evil, many cops are evil (although some are helpful, mind you), and there are many other things that I personally don't like that I would put into that category if I actually felt like sitting there and thinking about it. Does this mean that Walmart plots to take over the world, and blow things up? (welll......) NO. (I have also used the phrase Walmart is the Devil many times in my life, no one has ever taken that seriously or literally and performed excorsisms on it). My point is, I used that phrase to convey about ten posts of you thinking we were conspiraring (sp) against you/attacking you, because I really didn't feel like going back through the entire thing and quoting directly, because I didn't need to. That would be making a really redundant/already made (many times over) point. If "evil" was the only thing in there that you could counter against, then I must have done a halfway decent job.
 Good. Duh. We've all been saying that for about 2 days now.
<You really need to growup > I am, slowly but surely, I try not to rush things. If it helps, I turn 22 on Tuesday ( :) ). And, then again, I don't feel like anyone is conspiraring (sp, help!) against me in here, or anywhere else for that matter (well, Big Brother is something else entirely ;) ). And for as, well, level head I feel I have stayed while typing these last 2 days, I'm feelin' pretty good about my maturity. How about you?
<stop putting words in other peoples mouths> Again, we went through this. It was an attempt to sum up the general feelings expressed across many posts. And, mnah :P, you couldn't sue me if this was real life for slander anyways (or libel, since this _is_ on the 'net). Hee hee, I learned that in Comm Law. The supreme court ruled that a quote doesn't need to be out right printed, can even be reworded (usually in an attempt to make the quotee look a little more intelligent and educated- an Indiana must) so long as the original intent and general meaning is there. so mnah :P. (hee hee how's that for grown up). So while you're doing the cyber equivilant of flailing about wildly over a non-issue, I'm getting some level headed amusement over the internet. weee!
<you have no idea what I am like in real life!!!! > Ok, did I, or did I not say that in my previous post, many times. So many times, I wondered if I was beating a dead horse while typing. Remember?.... I said you could be Rush for all I know, and I Saddam, and, yep, ... NO ONE KNOWS.... holy cow, and I need to grow up?
I've accepted (as posted earlier) that you and I have different views, and really more importantly that I have different views than prolly many people in the world. So big freakin' whoop. And an informed discussion on them is always welcome, not wild finger waving just because we disagree. If you feel so strongly about the issue, and were any good at arguing, present some info to the floor in general (not that I care, I'm done with this topic after this). Freaking out and accusing of attacking, is not a solid way to go. And re read your last posts if you think that's not an accurate description. (a description: NOT putting words in ones mouth).

Question:<days of yore. > Judge away, I'm not from here, I'm serving out my college sentence, then I'm moving someplace decently cold, with a decent amount of snowfall, and without the state abbreviation of IN. I despise this place.

Gside: <and if you're a liberal over 30, you're brainless.> thanks, I knew it was something like that. point still made, though.

Lain:<heh heh.. fun, isnt it? >weeeeeee!
Dezi
Saturday, November 29, 2003 10:58:59 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

vinnie>> <> yes, that was what i was saying. you will note i also mentioned that the opinion poll asked for "yes/no" and nothing more. <<But I suppose that I should have known better>> yes, you should. this is the TGS comment room after all... <<most of the people in this comment room just can't accept a differing opinion from their own>> sure they can - when its expressed with slightly more tact. as mentioned before, nobody jumped on V. i say again - not your opinion that is the problem. the problem is the way you say it.

gside>> <<So did I, acutally>> yes, but ive farted your belly so i can forgive you.

todd>> <<If they make polygamy legal, it should be with the provision that you have to live with all your wives at once, all of them under the same roof. Let's see how many people still want to be polygamists under those conditions. :)>> *blinks* todd... just made a really funny joke.. alright you, who are you, and what have you done with the REAL todd... you know, the one that took my offer to draw trogdor into TGS seriously.. what have you DONE with him!?!?!?!

ed>> <<(Canada doesn’t celebrate it, does it?)>> yeah, we do. we celebrate thanksgiving on the second monday in october, which is MUCH smarter because then when christmas rolls around, youre not still sick of turkey from all the leftovers youve had to eat for a month ;) <<Hopefully the coming hiatus won’t be as long as the recent ones>> if youre all reaaaaaally nice to me...

dezi>> if you think "conservatives" prostrating themselves as victims at the feet of the "evils of liberalism"... you really should try to get your hands on some rush limbaugh and sean hannity. its great fun! mind you, i am usually forced to run screaming from the room in order to protect my sanity for their total idiocy but if it floats your boat... <<I'm an equal-opportunity pain in the butt>> heh heh.. fun, isnt it?
lain
Saturday, November 29, 2003 04:26:02 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

lain: I thought this was just an opinion poll not a debate poll. A poll in which you just record the results. But I suppose that I should have known better, most of the people in this comment room just can't accept a differing opinion from their own.

Dezi: When did I ever use the term evil when I referred to Liberals. I have my opinions and you have yours. You really need to growup and stop putting words in other peoples mouths, because you have no idea what I am like in real life!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Saturday, November 29, 2003 02:44:57 AM
IP: 216.234.99.81

<Ok enough retail ranting, I could go on all day... Have I ever mention the immense idiot population of Indiana? ... They're everywhere.... >

Not trying to make a judgement call, but perhaps thats why they voted the kkk into political office in the days of yore.

Question
Saturday, November 29, 2003 02:11:14 AM
IP: 144.92.164.204

Gside - <Ah, nothing like a minor flame war to bring the volume.> *attempts to harvest the heat from this heated discussion to warm house up*
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, November 29, 2003 02:06:17 AM
IP: 204.94.193.80

Ah, nothing like a minor flame war to bring the volume.

Fire Storm> <>: Sorry, you must have been channeling me.
<<16, 32, 44, 23, 4, 12, and the ultra super mega hentai ball is 30>>: Sounds like they're selling pretty well over there, so they must be doing it for themselves first.
<<But I don't wanna wait!>>: Then make your own.
<<Why? I mean, there are not too many telemarketers there, and Baywatch possibly doesn't even exist, so what's the point?>>: Not Bun Bun, but Bunny Boy, Ghastly's furry.
<<look at how many men used their input port in the output port of the automotive exhaust>>: Don't you mean men using one of their outputs in the car exhaust output?
<<The opposite side of that may be true too>>: I can bypass that easily enough.

Dezi> <<you can be a liberal at 20, but if you're a liberal at 30 you're stupid>>: I believe it's something like: If you're a conservative under 30, you're hearless; and if you're a liberal over 30, you're brainless.

Vinnie> <<my Opinion...your Beliefs>>: Are those really deserving of capitals?
<<the Divorce statistics>>: The straight numbers or the percentages?

Lain> <<you spouted off on some (in my opinion) really dumb reasons to support your decision>>: So did I, acutally.

Patrick> <<Nobody gets seconds until everyone's had firsts>>: So can I count on you to help me in my raid on Utah?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Saturday, November 29, 2003 01:24:28 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Greetings;

Wow, the CR seems to have gotten a bit off topic. I'll start by saying to the Pendragon crew that they are doing a bang-up job this season. I'll give a more detailed review as soon as I can. I'm heading over to Israel for a few weeks to run some experiments. Not my first choice of labs, but my supervisor wants me there (I just hope I make it our alive :-) )

Same-Sex Marriage: Absolutely in support. Two of my friends just got hitched in Toronto last week. It was a wonderful ceremony and a great reception (another friend who’s a minister in the United Church officiated). They've been together for 10-years and can now celebrate their union and all the tax benefits that accompany it (although it does scare me that my friends from high school are getting married).

Yggdrasil - [eng050599@hotmail.com]
ON, Canada
Saturday, November 29, 2003 12:55:35 AM
IP: 66.185.84.203

DPH: < support our troops be asked to vote in favor of across the board military pay raises so that military families do not have to go on welfare> Mmmm Love this point. My dad and his wife didn't have it so hard when they were on their own, but man, when my sister was born, well, we're terribly sorry, but the kid just seems to think she _needs_ to eat.
<before prayer was taken out of school. > Hear hear. Just like the fifties weren't shiny happy Leave It To Beaver days either.

Todd: <If they make polygamy legal, it should be with the provision that you have to live with all your wives at once, all of them under the same roof. Let's see how many people still want to be polygamists under those conditions. :) > Yeah, and I'd say something about women taking more than one husband, but see, if I had to put up with more than one Brandon, I'd shoot myself. Ka-pow!

Ed:<It’s funny because it’s true. ;) > That's it! *throws of the gloves* nah... Just kidding ;) 'Sides, I'm too tired. I work in retail. Yes Yes, Black Friday it is. We had people lining up at midnite to get into the nearby Best Buy, which doesn't open til 6 am, for the "early bird" specials. Screw that. I love snow, but I'm not gonna stand in a line so long you can't see the door, in the middle of snow, with no daylight, for some damn DVD.
..Ok enough retail ranting, I could go on all day... Have I ever mention the immense idiot population of Indiana? ... They're everywhere....

Vinnie: Not so much an attack on your beliefs. And why are you such a victim. That's what I'm getting a kick out of. Shoot, liberal or conservative, I'd get a kick outta anyone who seems to just panic and back _himself_ into a corner. I really don't care whether you believe in gay marriage or not, live and let live, remember. But I really do not like being lumped into such a labeled group, or when people so die-hard toe such lines without giving thought. Such issues are not like being a Cubs fan, where you can root them on forever, even though they suck. I'd rather remain middle ground on lotsa things, just because I'd break the line so many times, either way, that it wouldn't matter in the first place. Yeah, I might be "liberal" on this issue, but that doesn't automatically make me one. And as for "attacking beliefs" you were the one that was waving wildly, practically yelling Oh! The Damned Liberals are everywhere here! And, by the way, neither that, or my reference to "evil" liberals was "slander" on your beliefs. It was really rhetorical hyperbole. Words to make a picture, "hopefully" an exageration. (But, as you said, we don't know you, so for all we know, we could really be talking to Rush himself on a wicked batch of 'contin. ;) And you might be reading the post of Saddam Hussein right now, you just never know.)
<starts to dogpile on the Conservative> sigh. Its just so sad, really.
<You need some way to get your jollies and making fun of conservative beliefs for not believing as you believing as you believe is just your way. > no, I get my jollies in much much better ways. ;) This is just to spend the time when nothing is on TV. That, and your paranoia really does amuse me alittle, in an interesting, lab rat kinda way. ;)
<Yes, but you sure do fake it well your attacks on my Opinion are Liberalism at there finest. > As I said, you don't know me anymore than I know you, how do you know what I'm faking or not. And, once again, I'm not attacking your opinion, I really don't care what you think, and, not that I would ever try to do so (and I haven't so far at all), but even trying to change your mind would be futile because you seem to be so entrenched in what looks to me as paranoia. So if I must be "attacking" anything, it would be that paranoia, just 'cause its fun. :) It gets such good reactions. :D Hell, if I came upon a liberal that did the same thing, well, I'd screw with them too. It's just the kind of mood I'm in. It's "Black Friday" and I'm an equal-opportunity pain in the butt.
<If you you just shrug no one can question your Beliefs. > Or he just might now care.

Mr. Paperwork:<Still, dezi, do ya think you could tone down the devouring sarcasm a bit? > But it's so much fun! I never get to be this much of a pain! :D

Greg: Thank you, thank you, I take a bow. Stay tuned for the next episode, when Dezi takes on the world!!!! well not really...

Dottie just kissed me square on the face. Never fear, however. While Dottie maybe be a female, and I do enjoy her affection and love her dearly in return, she is my happy go lucky spaniel dog. Ah the comforts of unconditional love. Hee hee, somebody deserves a belly rub!

Dezi
Friday, November 28, 2003 11:18:33 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Now, I'm confused about where I stand on this new political spectrum. I consider a moderate with conservative leanings and Green Baron to be pretty damn close to being a Libertarian.

I don't believe in homosexual marriage, based on religious reasons and polygamy . . how many husbands out there could afford (emotionally, financially, the works) to have more than 1 wife? So yes, I'm against polygamy.

Furthermore, I *strongly* believe that all the US Senators and US Representatives who claim to support our troops be asked to vote in favor of across the board military pay raises so that military families do not have to go on welfare. Any who vote against this do *not* support *our* troops.

I question Hillary Rodham Clinton's motives for visiting the troops on Thanksgiving Day. I'm sure she wanted to have something to be thankfull for . . and not catching her husband cheating is something to be thankfull for.

I also believe that 'affirmative action' should have a definite timetable. If you can't tell me when it's no longer necessary than we don't need it. When I was in high school, I knew this black female student who outscored me on the ACT. Because of the high score, no matter where she went to college, she'd be free.

GXB - <Remember them good old days?> I really despise religious types who try to say we had the good old days before prayer was taken out of school. There's never been 'the good old days' ever because every generation has had its problems and I consider 'racism' to be an even bigger problem with public schools than the rest of the current problems.

1+1=-3
DPH
AR, USA
Friday, November 28, 2003 10:03:24 PM
IP: 204.94.193.64

If they make polygamy legal, it should be with the provision that you have to live with all your wives at once, all of them under the same roof. Let's see how many people still want to be polygamists under those conditions. :)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, November 28, 2003 07:08:47 PM
IP: 63.186.1.152

Question: The issue isn’t whether to deport them, it’s taking kids into care to do so. This might work as a last resort, but clearly it’s more a case of the government panicking and wanting to do something radical. Having branded more moderate Conservative policies at the last election as ‘racist’; having failed to put proper funds into patrolling the channel tunnel, leaving it to transport companies which only sometimes worked, and having an unreformed and frankly incompetent system (as exposed recently by a BBC undercover journalist who applied three times under different names); having up until now allowed about 90% of those coming here to stay according to figures that are, admittedly, a few years old now, even though at that time five sixths of people were rejected; having supported EU laws that will stop effective blocks on mass immigration (not least all the new countries joining who will be suddenly able to work in the UK)… having done all that, it seems a quite radical step to leap to “let’s take their kids away until they go”. There are lots of measures they could be doing to cut down on immigration. I don’t think it’s right to use kids as leverage. The government is running scared because it failed in the past and now wishes to leap into the most radical action as a quick-fix. I don't, I must admit, believe it's his most heinous crime. Just his most recent.

I’m just hoping that Michael Howard can replace Tony Blair as Prime Minister as soon as humanly possible.
Ed
Friday, November 28, 2003 07:05:43 PM
IP: 131.111.8.96

Ed<Especially now that Blair is proposing to hold the kids of asylum seekers hostage to force repatriation (and I bet you can’t guess the last country to use that policy… oh, yes, it was Iraq, how did anyone guess?). Still, I suppose he’s more socialist than liberal. As in, National Socialist…>

Why exactly is that bad? If they fail to get aslyum there then wouldn't it be logical to ship them out elsewhere?
Question
Friday, November 28, 2003 06:22:27 PM
IP: 144.92.164.204

Belated happy Thanksgiving to everyone across the pond. Or everyone in the US part of across the pond, anyway. (Canada doesn’t celebrate it, does it?)

Tribun: Personally, I’m intrigued by what Hardwing had to say, but I don’t know if anyone else would be for you to go to the time of translating it. As for the question of altering time, this is something TGS inherits from Greg Weisman and despite the difficulties it causes, it’s one of the things I think is so great about time travel in this universe. It’s very strict, very clear and despite the oddities thrown up (like the Archmage’s future self saving his present self), it’s actually quite straight-forward. I understand why you don’t enjoy it as much though.

DPH: I’d like to second the amazing work that the art staff have been doing this season, nearly every week for five months. And you're right, we'd never ever kill a regular in a finale. Ever. Nuh-huh. Nope.

(Bwahahaha).

Dezi: Hopefully the coming hiatus won’t be as long as the recent ones.

Dezi/Lynati: (Re: “Because, you know, all flaming and not so flaming liberals are evil and minions of the devil incarnate.”) It’s funny because it’s true. ;)

Especially now that Blair is proposing to hold the kids of asylum seekers hostage to force repatriation (and I bet you can’t guess the last country to use that policy… oh, yes, it was Iraq, how did anyone guess?). Still, I suppose he’s more socialist than liberal. As in, National Socialist….

The gay marriage issue… I say it makes sense in principle, although with caution over the economic implications, if there are any. In the UK, you’d have the issues of paying benefits and what have you which would need to be worked out first. Don’t know how it works in the USA. There’s a difficulty paying benefits to gay married couples in that they’re less likely to have kids and are more likely to have double-incomes as a result, so the benefits wouldn’t be needed. So perhaps you’d need to change the benefits system to benefit child care, but then you’d lose that added incentive to have children from the proven and stable background of a stable marriage. I think it would need to be co-ordinated with other measures, too, just to get some consistency. Gay adoption springs to mind immediately. Don't know where the US is on this kind of stuff, though.
Ed
Cambridge, England
Friday, November 28, 2003 05:39:50 PM
IP: 131.111.8.97

Polygamy Poll > I vote "No." Nobody gets seconds until everyone's had firsts. :P

:: off to eat Thanksgiving leftovers ::
Patrick
Friday, November 28, 2003 05:20:50 PM
IP: 65.43.152.72

oh.. i forgot...

fire storm>> <<re: poll
yes.

why?

too bad, not tellin :P
lain
Friday, November 28, 2003 04:25:24 PM
IP: 4.7.35.8

vinnie>> <> i think you missed the boat on that one....
<<But they never changed their marriage laws so why should we? The whole thing smells of special interest groups trying to prevent the will of the Majority>> first of all, thats like saying "well, they never changed their laws on women being allowed to vote, so why should we?" the whole "well, they didnt so we shouldnt" argument is hooey and a waste of breath anyways. it doesnt mean anything. as for "minority imposing their will on the majority" well uh... i think part of the reason for taking this poll was to FIND OUT what the majority thought. i think i might want to wait to find out what the majority opinion is before spouting off about it. also, i believe the phrase is "what is popular is not always right, but what is right is not always popular."
<> well that didnt last long now, did it? ;)
<> what, exactly, about "hey you guys, yes or no?" is "liberal"? o.O it was just a freakin question :P
<<but then that's standard liberal policy>> grrr.. this *really* pisses me off. ever heard rush limbaugh? or sean hannity? THATS EVERYBODYS STANDARD POLICY!!!! get over it! arg!
<<but instead a poll that strokes your egos>> but it would be fine if everyone agreed with you, right? *snore*
<<That's also another LIBERAL tactic to marginalize conservatives>> *snores more*
<<You should go right ahead I know it's your way to make fun of anyone who has an opposing opinion to your own>> yes but i suppose you calling greg bishanskys opinion a "sermon" or calling green baron a "wolf in sheeps clothing" isnt "making fun" right? :P damn hypocrite!

<<See I was only stating my Opinion and now everyone starts to dogpile on the Conservative>> just so you know, it wasnt the OPINION you stated that everyone had a problem with. to use the ever-so-frustrating conservative phrase back on you "thats fine, think that, youre entitled to an opinion." it was the WAY YOU SAID IT that got everyones back up. gunjack (v.) came along and put gay marriage in the same category as abortion, but nobodys chomping on him for it, are they? :P
<> blah.
<<But U.S. is not the only country to go through this try looking at the Divorce statistics of countries that have legalized Gay marriages>> sure! since you seem so knowledgable about the subject, please provide us some links so we can check it out.
<<But then again your one of those that just loves to twist a persons words>> maybe a little... ] ; )
<<Yes, but you sure do fake it well your attacks on my Opinion are Liberalism at there finest>> because, of course, your stance is so solid as to be unquestionable! give me a break! if you want to disagree with other people, be prepared to have them disagree with you. and again, i dont think your opinion is really the problem, i think youre being a git about expressing it, though.
<<because I voted NO in that so called OPINION poll>> AAAARRGH!!!!! THATS THE POINT!!!!! go back and look over the first freakin post you made! you didnt "just vote no" at all! if youd "just voted no" then everything would be fine! but nooo, instead you spouted off on some (in my opinion) really dumb reasons to support your decision while at the same time COMPLETELY IGNORING the wishes of the person who posted the poll in the first place which were, (let me refresh you here) "Ok, a simple survey and NOT an attempt to start a discussion (too much of a chance of a flame war for this.) I just want simple yes/no answers"
- which in turn made the very thing he didnt want to happen, happen!
just say "no" man! now of course its not like anyone ELSE has been following the rules either... :P

can we just drop this whole stupid thing and go back to "yes" and "no"?

id really rather not have someone ELSE get booted out of the fandom for something this stupid.. :P

gabe>> <<And this is exactly why I believe politics is a tool of the devil. I ain't kiddin' either>> and shut up, gabe! we all know you hate FREEDOM!!!!
:P
lain
Friday, November 28, 2003 04:19:09 PM
IP: 4.7.35.8

And this is exactly why I believe politics is a tool of the devil. I ain't kiddin' either :)
Gabriel
Friday, November 28, 2003 04:14:41 PM
IP: 64.219.76.123

Greg Bishansky: See Now that's what I call an attack on my BELIEFS. Just because I voted NO in that so called OPINION poll you choose to attack me with your sarcasm now. I never said any of that stuff.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Friday, November 28, 2003 03:44:56 PM
IP: 216.234.99.170

Oh, I forgot...

LYNATI> <<Now, here's a question for the room: Should they legalize Polygamy in all 50 states?>>

Hell yeah. I want three wives ;)
Greg Bishansky
Friday, November 28, 2003 03:02:50 PM
IP: 216.179.1.212

*** Enter sarcasm mode ***

"Remember them good old days? We were truly a free country. Use white people on top, banning the Jews from our golf courses, goin out an lynching some of them negroes for lookin at our women funny. What a time. Women couldn't vote, them queers were in hidin, blacks had their own theatres, an' schools, an' water fountains. Then them socialist, pinko commies had to come in and take away our rights. I tells ya, this country is going to Hell in a hand basket. Goddamn lib'ral oppressors."

*** End Sarcasm mode ***

GB> <<No need for snipes.>> But they're fun ;) <<if Fred Phelps shows up you shoot and I'll shoot if Ted Rall appears, deal :)>> Deal.

LYNATI & DEZI> Great posts. I really enjoyed reading them
Greg Bishansky
Friday, November 28, 2003 02:51:27 PM
IP: 216.179.1.212

See I was only stating my Opinion and now everyone starts to dogpile on the Conservative. I suppose that I should have known better then to see this poll as anything but something to make liberals yourself feel good about themselves.

Lynati: <<*tries to find Bishanky's sermon and fails*
Bishanky hasn't made a response longer than two lines long sicne this poll was introduced. and nothing that he has said seems like it came from on top of a mountain or up in a pulpit. Is English your first language? because you don't seem to be reading much of the posts here correctly.>> And who says that sermons have to be long. There are short sermons as well.

<<[<Because, you know, all flaming and not so flaming liberals are evil and minions of the devil incarnate.>> Typical!!!! You just go ahead and MALIGN away. ]
Uh, you do realize that she was being sarcastic, don't you?>> Excuse me! But I said nothing about evil that is slandering my beliefs. But go right ahead I know youwill do it anyway. You need some way to get your jollies and making fun of conservative beliefs for not believing as you believing as you believe is just your way.

<<[Well that is an interesting question, I suppose it depends on if you want the divorce to skyrocket even higher then it is now.]
Hmm? all those couples getting divorced so they can marry the gay lovers they have been keeping on the side?>> Excuse me! But U.S. is not the only country to go through this try looking at the Divorce statistics of countries that have legalized Gay marriages.

<<[I don't believe that love is all it takes to make a marriage work. If that was true then there would be no such thing as divorce in the world. So I have to say NO! ]
Whaa-??? Marriages can "work" without love. Love relationships can work without marriage. How the frell does it make sense that divorce only happens in marriages that are based on love?>> I did not say Marriages can work without love I said That I don't believe Love is all it takes to make a Marriage work. But then again your one of those that just loves to twist a persons words don't.

Green Baron:<<That being said would homosexual couples financially benefit from leglizing gay marriage...sur they get partnership beneits but more taxes...good resarch question.>> That's good point.

Dezi:<<And one more time, for the record. I'm not a be all, end all, liberal either. And I'm sure not a conservative. But that doesn't mean that I don't agree with _some_ conservative policies and _some_ liberal policies. But both sides have a lot of stupid ones. Like I said, extremism is bad, middle ground is good, that's how I feel anyway. And one more thing for Vinnie to fret about. I'm middle ground, yet.... I'm in Journalism!!! ;) :D>> Yes, but you sure do fake it well your attacks on my Opinion are Liberalism at there finest.

Gunjack "Paperwork" Valentine: <The Poll: If government wishes to recognize homosexual marriage... *shrugs*> I suppose that's probably the best way to go. If you you just shrug no one can question your Beliefs.

Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Friday, November 28, 2003 02:26:14 PM
IP: 216.234.99.170

Marriage question > I think any two people who wish to commit to a lifelong partnership - be it male/female, male/male, or female/female - should be allowed to do so. I don't think "it's always been that way" is a valid rationale for not amending the rules of civil marriage. It didn't work as an argument for keeping bans on interracial marriage in place during the civil rights movement, and it's just as flimsy an argument in this case, as well.

As for the "increasing the divorce rate" argument, that's a logically flawed statistic. You might even call it a "yeah, well duh" statistic. It's like arguing that cars are more dangerous today than they were in 1950 because "there were more people killed in car crashes in 2000 than in 1950." Yes, that's true... because there are more cars and more drivers on the road in 2000 than in 1950. So yes, if so many marriages out of the total end in divorce, more marriages occuring will mean more divorces.
Patrick
Friday, November 28, 2003 12:35:02 PM
IP: 65.43.152.72

The Poll: If government wishes to recognize homosexual marriage... *shrugs*

...On this one, I'm massively indifferent. The Government is free to recognize whatever the heck it wants. The supreme court recognized slavery, and it currently recognizes infanticide. Compared to those two, marital status and adoption rights are small freakin' potatoes.

I've heard the arguements that gay marriage will "undermine our value system". Guys, our value system is defined by porn and violent video games. You can't degrade that. IT'S ALREADY DEGRADED.

*reads down a bit*

uh... I was gonna grouch at Lyn and Dezi for chomping poor Vinnie, but it looks like he earned it. 8 P ...Good points, lyn. There's some greek philosopher, I forget which one, but he gives a rundown on all the different male/female combinations and what each one is good for. Lain thinks it's in the Dialogues.

Still, dezi, do ya think you could tone down the devouring sarcasm a bit?

Vinnie - Dude. Which is the moral issue: rampant homosexual buttsex, or whether you get a tax break? If we're going to stand on Gay Marriage, we already missed the freakin' battle. Modern society has accepted homosexuality as a valid lifestyle. After that coup, marriage rights are an afterthought.
<<You at least mixed in some Conservative beliefs for the wolf in sheeps clothing look.>> BWAHAHAHAHA!!! He's gotcha there, Greenie! The term you're looking for, Vinnie, is "FISCAL conservative". He is a bit iffy on the social stuff...

Dezi><<Reading your posts, Vinnie, I'm picturing some dude sitting nervously in the corner, his eyes darting back and forth, his head twitching around, trying to see over his shoulder, because all the "liberals" are out to reign terror on him and only him.>> Not only him. Me too. See, that's the good thing about conservatives: they rain the terror and death on OTHER people, preferably on other continents.

Sick and tired and going shopping. Ciao!
Gunjack "Paperwork" Valentine
Friday, November 28, 2003 11:54:37 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

Fire Storm > sorry for the late answer, but I think that yes, same-sex marriages should be legal, and I'd be far less interested in any amendments regarding marriage than I would about amendments regarding children (seeing that their parents provide for them, seeing that they all have adequate health coverage, etc.)

Happy Black Friday, as my friends in the retail biz refer to it. And a Happy post-Thanksgiving to those who celebrate. It was a quiet dinner at home for us, given that none of the family are nearby and our only close friends in the area don't "do" holidays anymore. But the three of us had a very nice time. Alton Brown's turkey technique is a surefire winner!
Christine - [<---- new pic, site update!]
Friday, November 28, 2003 11:26:01 AM
IP: 208.187.159.76

<< -- mmmmmm, flamey!

*fetches marshmallows for the roast*
lain
Friday, November 28, 2003 11:12:22 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

Lynati: <Uh, you do realize that she was being sarcastic, don't you? > Thanks Lyn. I was.

Reading your posts, Vinnie, I'm picturing some dude sitting nervously in the corner, his eyes darting back and forth, his head twitching around, trying to see over his shoulder, because all the "liberals" are out to reign terror on him and only him. (yes I was being sarcastic there too). Why does it seem that anytime someone argues against your point in this poll, they're branded liberals. Green Baron is probably the MOST conservative guy here, referring to him as part of the liberal "conspiracy" is a laugh. And he argues with sound reason, not preaching. Talk about intelligent discussion, if anyone opposes, you seem to get into some fighting stance, because, you know, we are _all_ out to get you. /sarcasm once again.
Preaching: I've heard many many conservatives preach. Sometimes from a pulpit! Sometimes....not...
Maligning: hee hee, 'nuf said.
Converting: What's that phrase again, something like, you can be a liberal at 20, but if you're a liberal at 30 you're stupid (...Green Baron, back me up on this one, I can't remember the phrasing, we discussed it once...) Anyways, that sounds like conversion to me. "You WILL be one of us, EVENTUALLY. If not, you're STUPID!" /sarcasm again
Marginalizing?: Yeah there are so few conservatives, and we must push all of them into the shadows, for fear not to look at them or they might turn us to stone. /sarcasm again.
Don't tell me that conservatives are saints that do not do any of those things.

GB: Yeah I wasn't calling either a flaming liberal. It was more like, well, I don't think I'd ever see moderate liberals coming down from helicopters with syringes full of brainwashing juice, to make one more convert. More like a verbal picture. And yeah, :) you told me about that once, it's funny. Welcome Back!

And one more time, for the record. I'm not a be all, end all, liberal either. And I'm sure not a conservative. But that doesn't mean that I don't agree with _some_ conservative policies and _some_ liberal policies. But both sides have a lot of stupid ones. Like I said, extremism is bad, middle ground is good, that's how I feel anyway. And one more thing for Vinnie to fret about. I'm middle ground, yet.... I'm in Journalism!!! ;) :D
Dezi
Friday, November 28, 2003 11:08:45 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Lynati> Serial monogamy is legal in all 50 states. Why not legalize polygamy? Let's end all legal discriminations (positive and negative) between single and maried couples.

That being said would homosexual couples financially benefit from leglizing gay marriage...sur they get partnership beneits but more taxes...good resarch question.

Green Baron
Friday, November 28, 2003 08:54:39 AM
IP: 218.145.25.48

[ut at least it's a more tolerant sermon than Greg Bishansky's sermon on liberalism.]
*blinkblink*
*tries to find Bishanky's sermon and fails*
Bishanky hasn't made a response longer than two lines long sicne this poll was introduced. and nothing that he has said seems like it came from on top of a mountain or up in a pulpit. Is English your first language? because you don't seem to be reading much of the posts here correctly.

[The constitution was designed to protect the rights of minorities, not grant special privileges to them.]
So, what your saying is, granting marriage between certain types of minorities is a special privelege? oh, I see, its like the German Jews in World War II. Gotcha.

[...of this comment room is very narrow minded of you.]
Give me a second, I want to savor the irony of you using the word "narrow-minded".
mmm, tasty...

[It's not like you can find that special compatible someone overnight!]
And its sad, don't you think, that there are a lot of people out there who found a soul mate after years of searching, someone they really feel a true bond with and will never leave the side of, and they can't even legally marry in the states?

[<Because, you know, all flaming and not so flaming liberals are evil and minions of the devil incarnate.>> Typical!!!! You just go ahead and MALIGN away. ]
Uh, you do realize that she was being sarcastic, don't you?

[Well that is an interesting question, I suppose it depends on if you want the divorce to skyrocket even higher then it is now.]
Hmm? all those couples getting divorced so they can marry the gay lovers they have been keeping on the side?

[ Most gay relationships on average don't have that long a shelf life compared to male/female relationships. ]
Just out of curiosity, where are you getting your statistics? and seeing as gay marriage- not couplings- haven't been legal until now, how can you compare the rate of divorce? and have you actually looked at both the rate of divorce for straight married couples and the splitting-up rate of DATING straight couples in comparison to gay ones?

[Then there is the question of why after so many 1000's years do we have to change the concept of marriage?]
We already have. this day in age, people beleive that love shoudl be what marriage is based on. As opposed to 500 years ago when it was decided by your parents in many places when you were born, or arranged when you came of age, and had more to do with money, land, and creating alliances than with love.
[The Greeks and Romans got along fine with the marriage as it is, even though their concept of sexuality is more fluid then ours (not by much though). ]

...
...
Dude, the Romans didn't beleive that women had SOULS. They also beleived that true love could only exist between men. They married to produce offspring and keep the lines of heredity in order, regardless of their sexual alignment. If you look at the history of the wars, you'd know just how many thought of marriage as sacred when you look at the number of women they bought back as part of their conquests.

[I don't believe that love is all it takes to make a marriage work. If that was true then there would be no such thing as divorce in the world. So I have to say NO! ]
Whaa-??? Marriages can "work" without love. Love relationships can work without marriage. How the frell does it make sense that divorce only happens in marriages that are based on love?

Now, here's a question for the room: Should they legalize Polygamy in all 50 states?
Lynati
Friday, November 28, 2003 07:10:11 AM
IP: 66.140.85.215

Green Baron: I was merely stating my opinion I don't need the sermon, but at least it's a more tolerant sermon than Greg Bishansky's sermon on liberalism. You at least mixed in some Conservative beliefs for the wolf in sheeps clothing look. Preaching or maligning, converting or marginalizing those are the tools of the liberal.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Friday, November 28, 2003 04:42:04 AM
IP: 216.234.99.28

Today is a wonderful day. I now have internet in my room. Now all I will need is 2.5 billion dollars and my day will be cmplete :)

Vinnie> I admit that the anti-slavery movement had strong ligious roots, especially the Medthodists and Quakers, but as to them being right or left is a whole different matter.

I would also debate on how many of the less stable same sex relationships would become marriages. With a 60% ivorce rate among heteroseuals, I doubt homosexuals can do worse.

Now, I am a conservative (just ask anyone here) and I fully support legalzation of same sex marriages, not unions or partnerships, mind yo, but actual marriages.

Andrew Sullivan has an excellent essay about gay marriage, that you can access by clickng on my name. Now, I have an idea of where you come from, being as I opposed same sex marriages a few years back.

Now as a Catholic, I was not raisd to accept same sex marriage, which is fine for a Catholic, but America is not a Catholic nation (in fact it has anti-Catholic roots up until the end of WWII). I have also dissenetd from the Catholic Curch on a number of mundane issues. I suported welfare reform, while the Economically clueless Bishops opposed it. I supported a war opposed by the Church leadership, and their position has caused me to reevaluate my defenses of Pope Pius XII.

Also, if I were t use my religion as a guide, America does not enfore the tenets of my faith. Abortion is legal, birth control is legal, divorce and remarriage is legal, non-missionary sex is legal, masturbation is legal, so is fornicaton.

Now, even the Catholic Church is hypocritical in its stance, since they have declared marriage to be a loving union and sex can be used for more than procretion. At least in the harsh old days, they were consistent, albeit inflexible.

But infertile couples are allowed to marry. Pat Buchanan has no kids, afterall.

I would prefer same sex mariage be brought in by legslature and not by Judiciary, but I will have to agree with the Massachusettes SC and Barney Frank on this one.

As for an Ammendment protecting marriage, it not only undermines the Tenth Ammendment, but it has little support. Besides the 0% divoce rate is a much greater threat to marriage than same sex couples, and while the San Francisco crowd may have high turnover rates, I suspect that Vermont and Florida (where a large portion of the 25% of homosexuals who actually voted for Bush reside) will have a monogamous relationship. I support monogamy whether it is homoseual or heterosexual, and I'd recognize the lifelong marriage of two men before I recognize Bill and Hillary's mariage :)

I'd share your concern if the Feds forced religions to perrom or reognize same sex marriage, but I don't see that happening.

Greg> No need for snipes. Vinnie's not a Fred Phelps type, ut if Fred Phelps shows up you shoot and I'll shoot if Ted Rall appears, deal :)

Dezi> I also recall Firestorm is not a flaming liberal and neither is Greg X. I was once called a left-winger by a Buchanan supporter.

That is all for now and kudos to W and Hillary for spedning their Thansgivings in Iraq and Afghanistan resepctively.

Enjoy your weekend

Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Camp Humphreys, Korea
Friday, November 28, 2003 04:04:43 AM
IP: 220.73.165.11

Greg Bishansky: <<Vinnie> Marriage is a special priveledge? I didn't know that. I never knew being married to someone you LOVE is a priveledge.>> Well Duh! Of course marriage is a priveledge, if you allow yourself to get married just for the sake of getting married you're definitely heading for a big, BIG, BIG DIVORCE! It's not like you can find that special compatible someone overnight. Finding that person is a PRIVELEDGE! And that's all I have to say on the subject.

Dezi: <<mmmm As I recall, it started out as just a question, with the actual wording of the question geared in an ambiguous manner, so as to allow both opinions to be expressed in the answers. Also, are the dark black 'copters piloted by flaming liberals hovering outside your window yet in an attempt to abduct and brainwash you? Because, you know, all flaming and not so flaming liberals are evil and minions of the devil incarnate.>> Typical!!!! You just go ahead and MALIGN away. That's also another LIBERAL tactic to marginalize conservatives. But just to be fair you don't know me at all and you are already making fun of my posts. Oh well, I suppose since no one can't stop you from your pathetic attempts at amusement... You should go right ahead I know it's your way to make fun of anyone who has an opposing opinion to your own.

Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Friday, November 28, 2003 03:16:39 AM
IP: 216.234.99.28

DPH: 
I suck at guessing how people think, so... Bacon?
<requiring cars to have an "emit collision" warning system would be a great idea as it could potentially prevent accidents from happening.>
Why? Personally, I think that people in general would stop paying attention to how they drive and rely only on the buzzer.

Gside: <I'd need sales figures>
16, 32, 44, 23, 4, 12, and the ultra super mega hentai ball is 30
<Just wait a bit, it'll come eventually.>
But I don't wanna wait!
<Only if Bunny Boy goes with him>
Why? I mean, there are not too many telemarketers there, and Baywatch possibly doesn't even exist, so what's the point?
<I've got my part clearly labeled. In case I get confused>
I think they should be labeled. Granted, I know what they are, but there are people out there that get confused about that sort of thing. I mean, look at how many men used their input port in the output port of the automotive exhaust!
But, then again, that's why God created Darwin!
<If it'll help increase lesbian porn...>
Keep in mind: The opposite side of that may be true too!

Dezi: <So as long as its not "cramping my style" I don't much care. Does that help out any?>
Apathy is a valid stance on the issue. So... Yes, as long as it doesn't bother you, correct?

Poll: Just wanted to see what the general consensus is in this CR on the topic. For reasons unknown to me, LM and I feel REALLY strongly about this topic.
SO, my answers are:
1) YES
2) HELL NO!

Poll: Exactly why I wanted to be binary (YES/NO)
Fire Storm
Friday, November 28, 2003 02:17:31 AM
IP: 68.73.52.244

Vinnie: <I was just answering a Poll a very liberal poll mind you, but a poll none the less and your attempts to marginalize the conservative opinion of this comment room is very narrow minded of you. but then that's standard liberal policy> mmmm As I recall, it started out as just a question, with the actual wording of the question geared in an ambiguous manner, so as to allow both opinions to be expressed in the answers. Also, are the dark black 'copters piloted by flaming liberals hovering outside your window yet in an attempt to abduct and brainwash you? Because, you know, all flaming and not so flaming liberals are evil and minions of the devil incarnate.

Firestorm: To answer your poll: I believe in live and let live. That and moderation is a good thing, extremism on both sides is bad. So as long as its not "cramping my style" I don't much care. Does that help out any?

Weee heee. I made my own half hour tv show. It's called Shark Bait. Think Conan + Space Ghost hosted by a shark. I even made the costume (paper mache is so cool). We did a whole Jay Walking thing around my campus (freaking out the everyone) and interviewed the president of the university "via satellite". It was both hilarious and awesome. The show, sadly only ended up being 20 min, due to writing/timing errors, but my grade was more than made up for in that the teacher was laughing his ass off, and I worked really hard to decorate the set, for an "underwater" feel. weeee!

I need to post more often. I don't think I really like being a lurker.

*Pendragon*
While its not up there on my gargoyles list (which is not in anyway you guys' fault, just my own for not really being into King Arthur) you guys are really doing a cool job, especially given that you were thrown the problem from Timedancer. And yes, I'm very pleased with the amount of artwork, it did pick up as the series went on, making my day. I see it as, mmmmm more Gargoyles stories! and makes Tuesdays lots of fun. I'll be sad when we're back to a hiatus lull for any of the stories, I'm so interested in seeing what happens from all fronts. Oh yeah, and note to whoever works on the front page, don't forget to add that there are now 5 "series featuring our Defenders of the Night" once Bad Guys premiers. Just noticed that the other day and it made me think. You guys prolly already thought of it, but I like to feel aware sometimes. ;)

Ok time for checks with the b/f and then sleep.
Happy Thanksgiving all!

Dezi
Friday, November 28, 2003 01:01:06 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Vinnie> Marriage is a special priveledge? I didn't know that. I never knew being married to someone you LOVE is a priveledge.

But as per your request, and since I happen to be a moderator, I'll be happy to shut this down (this conversation, not the poll) if that's what you want. Your choice.
Greg Bishansky
Friday, November 28, 2003 12:24:32 AM
IP: 216.179.3.119

Greg Bishansky: The constitution was designed to protect the rights of minorities, not grant special privileges to them. However your right I don't care I was just answering a Poll a very liberal poll mind you, but a poll none the less and your attempts to marginalize the conservative opinion of this comment room is very narrow minded of you. but then that's standard liberal policy. That is all I have to say and I pray that the moderators shut down this liberal feel good poll as soon as possible, because it is obvious that you are not interested in a true poll of equals, but instead a poll that strokes your egos.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Friday, November 28, 2003 12:17:40 AM
IP: 216.234.99.28

Vinnie> Just answer this question, please.

If same-sex marriages are legalised, are they going to force you to marry a man? Is the government going to storm peoples' homes and force them to marry others of their own gender?

No. So, why do you care?
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:56:22 PM
IP: 216.179.3.119

Greg Bishansky:<<Yep, just like those special interest groups who long ago tried to impose their will on the majority by taking away their slaves.

Will of the majority. The Constitution (ever heard of that little document?) was put in place to protect the minority from the will of the "majority".>>

I think I should ignore you or this comment room could erupt into an all out brawl. However technically slavery was not really supported by the majority of people at the time of the Civil War, read your history books sometime. Ending slavery was the will of the Majority thanks to the Religious Right in the country at the time. I am shutting up about this now though before it gets any uglier.

Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:43:09 PM
IP: 216.234.99.28

Silvadel - <One of the things I like about timedancer is that it reveals a lot about FUTURE gargoyles> That's what I don't like. I don't believe Timedancer should be used to 'establish history' or be used as the ultimate tool to force your view of the fate of characters on people.

Todd Jensen - <even without any knowledge of the future, I suspect that a lot of people here would have found it difficult to genuinely believe that we'd have a young girl put to death in the season finale> Or without knowing Merlin's fate, would fans really believe he would really be killed at the end of a season? Future revealed or not, there are certain things that I would hope readers wouldn't believe happen during a season.

Tribun - Umm, apparantly you're in the wrong area or you haven't read Greg Weisman's rules for Time Travel. Like it or not, history is immutable in the gargoyles universe. If you don't like that history is immutable, go play in a different universe.

Story Seeker - 1st, Brooklyn has to spend time in the future while Timedancing, if you follow Greg Weisman's plans. However, what you can (IMHO, should) do is carefully evaluate in any story set in the future to make sure you're not tying the hands of what can happen in the present.

Also, I want to give some praise to the art staff. So far, there has only been *5* stories this season without artwork. Considering the length of this season is longer than it's been in the past, that's artwork for ~80% of the stories this season.
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:16:35 PM
IP: 204.94.193.36

VINNIE> Yep, just like those special interest groups who long ago tried to impose their will on the majority by taking away their slaves.

Will of the majority. The Constitution (ever heard of that little document?) was put in place to protect the minority from the will of the "majority".
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, November 27, 2003 09:57:10 PM
IP: 216.179.3.119

Gside><<<<The Greeks and Romans got along fine with the marriage as it is>>: And also promoted pederasty>>>>

But they never changed their marriage laws so why should we? The whole thing smells of special interest groups trying to prevent the will of the Majority.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Thursday, November 27, 2003 09:53:00 PM
IP: 216.234.99.28

Hope everyone had a filling Thanksgiving.

Vinnie> <<The Greeks and Romans got along fine with the marriage as it is>>: And also promoted pederasty.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Thursday, November 27, 2003 09:30:54 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Well, Merlin and Mary's guest appearances in Timedancer were something that sneaked past us, so to speak. We didn't have "Pendragon" worked out much at the time, and didn't know that we were going to have a sacrifice concept for Mary this season. And by the time that we realized it, it was too late. Sorry about that.

Of course - even without any knowledge of the future, I suspect that a lot of people here would have found it difficult to genuinely believe that we'd have a young girl put to death in the season finale - at least, something like that would have had a very difficult time getting past even the very liberal S&P of "Gargoyles" while it was still on the Disney Afternoon.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, November 27, 2003 06:54:27 PM
IP: 63.186.0.83

Note future in my sense is best like the space station episode and when we saw demona at the end of her cycle.
silvadel
Thursday, November 27, 2003 06:34:35 PM
IP: 24.225.134.30

One of the things I like about timedancer is that it reveals a lot about FUTURE gargoyles... Really the 2 series I like are normal gargoyles and timedancer. Dark ages is ages past, and pendragon was never my favorite.

Plus I think the whole Brook/Sata crew is a stronger set of characters than any other groupings other than the normal gargoyles set when they are at their best.
silvadel
Thursday, November 27, 2003 06:32:54 PM
IP: 24.225.134.30

Speaking as someone who's been married a very long time, I'd say any two people willing to put in the time and effort into a committed relationship should be allowed to.
kathy
Thursday, November 27, 2003 06:30:37 PM
IP: 66.82.197.2

Firestorm><<Should same sex marriages be allowed?>>:

Well that is an interesting question, I suppose it depends on if you want the divorce to skyrocket even higher then it is now. Most gay relationships on average don't have that long a shelf life compared to male/female relationships.

Then there is the question of why after so many 1000's years do we have to change the concept of marriage? The Greeks and Romans got along fine with the marriage as it is, even though their concept of sexuality is more fluid then ours (not by much though).

Lastly, as much as you might see it differently in the media, I don't believe that love is all it takes to make a marriage work. If that was true then there would be no such thing as divorce in the world. So I have to say NO!

***CARBONEK PART ONE SPOILERS***

Well you defintely put a lot of detail into this story, it had everything in it. Nigel's reaction was interesting I wonder if Mary will tell him about the Grail's return and if/when would he tell Morgana what her reaction would be. Since their marriage has not taken place yet it could be used to allow Nigel to see Morgana's darker nature.
Then there is the question of the Illuminati. How will they and their rivals choose to seize the Grail? Definitely the makings of a goodfight.

And then the what sort of sacrifice will Mary be forced to make for her boyfriend Merlin? Thanks to that cursed TimeDancer Saga we already know that she will live. Sorry if I am being to insulting TD, but it is really a waste space to allow the end of a story to be read first.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Thursday, November 27, 2003 04:16:45 PM
IP: 216.234.99.17

<If you bothered reading you'd know he did in Kemet when he tried to prevent Meryt from becoming the Shabti only to have it happen because of what he did to try and prevent it from happening. >

Thanks, then I won't even bother to read it. But to be fair, I don't like time travel stories in general, so I#m not a 'only-timedancer' hater, but can't stand time travel in general, with only few exceptions.

-Tribun
Tribun - [joachim_henkel@gmx.net]
Luebeck, SH, Germany
Thursday, November 27, 2003 01:55:36 PM
IP: 62.214.58.167

Ed<The rationale behind revelations in Timedancer?is that it doesn't really matter how things end up, the drama is in the getting there. Admittedly, I don't see eye to eye with the Timedancer?staff on this one, but then thats why I'm writing Pendragon?and not Timedancer?>

So you guys didn't have any say in the matter? I mean since you guys are writing Pendragon you could've told them not to use the characters or keep the details of Nicholas's parentage a secret until you guys finished with this present arc.

Tribun<I too find that the series becomes weak when the first episode in the future aired. I can't stand this future and the thought that the future is carved into stone is something I find really stupid too. I wonder why Brooklyn not even TRYS to change things for better?! Is he so fulfilled of his dogma of the unchangable future, that the thought that his actions can change it not even occured to him? >

If you bothered reading you'd know he did in Kemet when he tried to prevent Meryt from becoming the Shabti only to have it happen because of what he did to try and prevent it from happening.
Question
Thursday, November 27, 2003 01:49:42 PM
IP: 216.170.210.200

I would like to calmly point out one thing:

IT'S TURKEY DAY! WOO HOO!

(And I am not cooking!)

Happy Thanksgiving all!
Fire Storm
Thursday, November 27, 2003 01:32:39 PM
IP: 68.73.192.111

Storyseeker> If you think, that timedancer had become rubbish, when they had start to go into the future, then you are not alone. Hardwing made a devastating critique on the German main board, which I can put here translated if you want
I too find that the series becomes weak when the first episode in the future aired. I can't stand this future and the thought that the future is carved into stone is something I find really stupid too. I wonder why Brooklyn not even TRYS to change things for better?! Is he so fulfilled of his dogma of the unchangable future, that the thought that his actions can change it not even occured to him?
And by the way. I remember a episode where Brooks and Sata arrived at the time of "Turf". I thought of him as really stupid, why he not got rid of the gate (throw it into the ocean, or let it simply disappear) and then got into hiding for a few months. It would have spared him of many years of traveling in time, if he had simply waited until his other me had vanished the first time with the gate.

-Tribun
Tribun - [joachim_henkel@gmx.net]
Luebeck, SH, Germany
Thursday, November 27, 2003 12:25:42 PM
IP: 62.214.58.167

Ed: <The rationale behind revelations in ‘Timedancer’ is that it doesn’t really matter how things end up, the drama is in the getting there. Admittedly, I don’t see eye to eye with the ‘Timedancer’ staff on this one, but then that’s why I’m writing ‘Pendragon’ and not ‘Timedancer’>

I agree totally with you and I totally don't agree if that's what the TD staff think. I mean, they may like writing about the aftermath of a story before its even written, but not me and certainly not a lot of other people.

It's like what I read in a book once, 'If the future's set then I wouldn't bother getting up in the morning!'

I quit reading TD after they began writing fics set in the future, ruined a couple of fics for me so I didn't bother and I won't ever read it until Gargoyles and Pendragon are both finished.
Storyseeker - [Storyseeker.1@btopenworld.com]
Birmingham, UK
Thursday, November 27, 2003 03:45:11 AM
IP: 217.150.117.210

FIRE STORM> <<Should same sex marriages be allowed?>>: Yes.
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, November 27, 2003 02:14:49 AM
IP: 216.179.3.119

Gunjack> <<It's like bear baiting, only fun>>: I bet you've never bear baited. Shakespeare enjoyed it.

Fire Storm> <<do they do this for themselves or to simply shock the Americans?>>: I'd need sales figures.
<>: Just wait a bit, it'll come eventually.
<<Nort visits Supermegatopia>>: Only if Bunny Boy goes with him.
<<A law saying that parts can't be labeled Male and Female?>>: I've got my part clearly labeled. In case I get confused.
<<Should same sex marriages be allowed?>>: If it'll help increase lesbian porn...

DPH> <<Stop Hurting Innocent Turkeys>>: Citizens Raging Against Phones. "Pigeons are good too. Sometimes, they come with notes attached...it's like...a fortune cookie with wings. Squirrels...squirrels ain't so good, they...taste like goldfish...meat's real stringy...ya know what I mean?"

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Thursday, November 27, 2003 01:04:56 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

*A crack team of security experts investigates the means by which DPH plans on entering the TGS CR, to ensure there are no vehicles on other side of his planned and promptly puts up road blocks to ensure his chosen route to enter the TGS CR is safe. Moments later, a portal opens and DPH walks into the TGS CR, giving thanks to his crack team of security experts.*

One can never to be carefull, even when trying to avoid traffic accidents. I just returned 2 videos to Hastings (Bruce Almighty and T3: Rise of the Machines) and sticking to the middle line because it wasn't that fire until I had to make left turn to go home, when this idiot pulls out in front of me, I tried swerving to avoid an accident, but still a collision occured on the passenger side of my car. Thankfully, I'm alright. That isn't all. That moron thinks it was *my* fault that an accident occurred because he thinks I was speeding and doesn't believe himself at fault. When I wrote my statement for the police report, I included the how and why I was in the lane that I was in so I could shut down any possible arguments that I had just turned into the middle lane before he hit me. The police officers thought my statement was . . . interesting, and cited the other guy at fault.

Lessons to be learned:

1)a logical person is not a good person to hit, considering he/she is likely to demolish any possible arguments that he/she is at fault while making the statement about the accident.

2)requiring cars to have an "emit collision" warning system would be a great idea as it could potentially prevent accidents from happening.

I heard of this organization on the radio: Stop Hurting Innocent Turkeys. I would say what kind of morons choose a group name without looking at its acronym, but I believe those morons already belong in that category.

Master & Slave - I smell acquiring much needed bonus points for one of my classes.

Fire Storm - I don't need to answer your survey since I hope that you can guess my answer.

Ok, I enjoyed Terminator 3. One question I didn't quite get the answer to though. How did the virus get on the computer networks? Did the evil terminator put it there? The ending I found . . quite interesting and definitely not predictable. Where the events of Terminator and Terminator 2 considered a victory or a failure for either side of the war? I had previously thought the events of Terminator and Terminator 2 were clear victories for humanity, but now I'm not sure at all because of the revelations in Terminator 3. Also, I have one simple question: if the machines had tried to kill John Connor, would he have still been the leader of the restistance?
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, November 27, 2003 12:28:04 AM
IP: 204.94.193.44

***CARBONEK PART ONE SPOILERS***

Almost all the people commenting on this episode have brought up the issue because it seems like Mary is alive in the last season of ‘Timedancer’, therefore the tension is gone. It’s an issue that concerned me too, but it was in fact partially deliberate. That is, we knew at the time we broke this episode that we’d appear to contradict ‘Timedancer’. We could have gone another way. We didn’t. Why, you ask?

Speaking for myself, I can’t imagine the season climaxing any other way. Almost everything we’ve done – Arthur and Mary’s increasing father/daughter style relationship, the sacrifice issues in “Out of the Frying Pan” and “Flight from the Enchanter”, the development of the May Day massacre as far back as “Eynhallow”, the questions of whether the means justify the ends, etc. are all geared towards this issue and its implications. Not that we started plotting it that way, but in my case it was certainly written this way and rewrites brought even more cohesion. So even if you think you know Mary is going to survive because of the appearance of ‘Timedancer’, I hope that you can see why we ran the gauntlet with this cliffhanger anyway. Although, if you aren’t convinced now, I suspect that once you see that astonishing job Todd did on the next two parts you will be.

Firestorm: Fear not, there’ll be more art in the last two parts.

Vash: From what you said at the weekend, I wasn’t expecting to see your review for at least a week, so thanks for stopping by and giving such a detailed commentary. I’m especially glad you brought up Abraham’s trial which was one of the ideas behind the concept. Don’t worry about Griff, there are big, big things coming up for him in the next two parts.

Storyseeker: The rationale behind revelations in ‘Timedancer’ is that it doesn’t really matter how things end up, the drama is in the getting there. Admittedly, I don’t see eye to eye with the ‘Timedancer’ staff on this one, but then that’s why I’m writing ‘Pendragon’ and not ‘Timedancer’.

Durandal: Thanks for stopping by to review the episode.

***END SPOILERS***

Gunjack: Your shameless discrimination against bear-baiters upsets me.

Graymonk: The gits. Thanks for trying, though.
Ed
Cambridge, England
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 07:16:55 PM
IP: 131.111.8.101

GRAYMONK - I came across that event a little while ago when I was visiting Toon Zone's forums. I'm not at all offended by it, but I will admit that you didn't choose the ideal location for it. A fanfiction-oriented forum might have been more appropriate, or even an Arthurian-oriented forum. But thanks for doing your part in advertising it. Pity that it backfired.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 07:02:02 PM
IP: 65.178.240.12

Ok, scratch my suggestion about advertising new TGS episodes and the recruitment drive on the Toonzone Disney board. I posted Todd's teaser for "Carbonek part 1" (hope you don't mind Todd, I was just trying to get you more readers) along with an explanation of what TGS is and got nothing but angry responses complaining I got their hopes up for Gargoyles coming back in an official cappacity.

sigh, perfect end to a perfect day.
Graymonk
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 06:34:02 PM
IP: 198.164.140.100

Todd: <Maybe it helped that Mary loved Merlin back (which Nimue and Corbie didn't).>
True. That hadn't occurred to me.
<(But it's clear that they haven't gone beyond an occasional chaste kiss as yet, in light of how the unicorn responded to Mary.)>
This doesn't surprise me. Aside from this being TGS (IE: Family oriented), if Merlin has never had sex before, it stands to reason that he would wait until he was married before doing anything.

Gside: <Well, if they annoy too many people, they won't make as much money>
As long as they don't annoy their business customers, they don't care

OR maybe the Japanese just do this for the shock value. I mean, really, do they do this for themselves or to simply shock the Americans?
<They've got one about just about everything else>
I still have to ask why. I wonder if I can find a heroic cross-dressing midget baker hentai manga...
<And to make Freddy a hermaphrodite or at least introduce a true hermaphrodite. And anything else? More frequent Zebra Girl?>
MORE BUXOM GAL! MORE SHEMALE!
Oh wait... that Supermegatopia... oh well...
Hmm... Nort visits Supermegatopia...
<It was on the series finale?>
BAH! Buffy died on the series finale, v1.0!
<He's now a heap of something rather than a rotting corpse or disassociated atoms?>
Exactly! They have a pile of stuff!

V: <See, this is what makes this country great: the sport I call "Liberal Baiting.">
Hmm... your post made me think of something: Should they be called Dominant and Submissive?
Mistress and Slave?
Primary and Secondary? (too boring!)
What's next? A law saying that parts can't be labeled Male and Female?

SURVEY
Ok, a simple survey and NOT an attempt to start a discussion (too much of a chance of a flame war for this.
I just want simple yes/no answers.
Should same sex marriages be allowed?
If no, then:
Should there be a constitutional amendment to make a marriage be defined as the legal union of a MAN and a WOMAN?

Something I heard on Headline News brought this up. Can't find a link on CNN.com, though.
Fire Storm
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 06:30:19 PM
IP: 65.114.91.3

See, this is what makes this country great: the sport I call "Liberal Baiting."
It's like bear baiting, only fun and socially responsible!

Here, we have probably the black/"civil rights lobby" arguing that the terms "master" and "slave" are socially unacceptable. And of course, we must be sensitive to all view points.
But what about the "sexual deviant" lobby? Don't they have a right to see their special kinds of relationships accepted and respected by society as a whole too? Isn't this an example of the predominantly religious and conservative blacks trampling the rights of the poor sexual deviants?

For shame! The blacks need to learn to get over their narrow-minded, bigoted sexual theology and realize that love is love, no matter how much hardware is involved!
V.
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 03:38:27 PM
IP: 4.7.35.8

Ok, this whole "Politicially Correct" movement has gone way to far!
Fire Storm - [<--- TOO FAR!]
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 02:36:49 PM
IP: 68.73.192.111

Carbonek -> Great story, I really enjoyed it. It brings in a lot of characters for one big confrontation, although I agree that knowing that Mary will eventually be ok sort of disrupts everything (but what can be done eh?)

Anyways, it makes the week long wait worth it. Although, I have to say that I am really eager to see how the next season of TD will start (the ending of the last was... well... very, very interesting).

Good job
Durandal - [dnarn_kuuk@hotmail.com]
Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 11:12:13 AM
IP: 205.236.5.136

And so there is much to rejoice about and run through the room nekkid. Made it home safe for the thanksgiving break and I was informed that I did pass my review crit so I can now move on to the final studio classes to finish up FINALLY at UNT. I suppose 5 years is the average now... with summer classes.

*smooches spacebabie*
Revel
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 10:55:41 AM
IP: 68.118.131.109

VASH - Thanks for your review. A few brief comments:

1. I think that Nigel decided against holding the wedding at night since it could raise some awkward questions and attract the wrong sort of attention - attention that could wind up having people discovering the truth about his daughter. (He also believes that Morgana doesn't know that Mary's a werewolf, and obviously isn't about to tell her about that just yet.)

2. Morgana's hatred for Arthur does rest on flimsy grounds, I agree. But back in the Dark Ages, people did operate, when pursuing revenge, on an attitude of "Their descendants must pay!" Arthur isn't just Uther's son, but the son that he specifically begot upon her mother, which makes him (in her eyes) irrevocably connected to Uther's invasion of Cornwall and destruction of her family. And also, Uther died from natural causes before Morgana could get at him; I think that Morgana goes after Arthur as much out of a frustration principle (Uther's dead and beyond her vengeance, Arthur isn't) as anything else.

3. The name of Joyeux for Lancelot's sword actually comes from T. H. White (although I don't know where White got that from, or even if he invented it).

4. There wasn't an actual mix-up in "Gargoyles" when Arthur encountered the Stone of Destiny at Westminster Abbey; the televised episode "Pendragon" took place before the Stone was returned to Scotland in real life.

Anyway, thanks for your review, and stay tuned for Part Two, coming on December 2 - when many questions will be answered - but more will be asked to take their place. :)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 08:03:25 AM
IP: 63.186.1.82

Vashkoda: We've already been spoiled by TD and know Mary and Merlin are going to survive somehow, which difuses some of the tension (sadly).

Yeah, I know. I've never read TD because it always spoils the other sagas for me. What's the point of reading a saga when you've read from another one and you know they're going to survive and everything will turn out alright?

Storyseeker - [Storyseeker.1@btopenworld.com]
Birmingham, UK
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 03:58:31 AM
IP: 217.150.117.210

er, by Ipsis I meant Isfet (too many universes, argh)

oh, and happy Thanksgiving, all!
Vashkoda
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 02:44:00 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

TGS: Carbonek>*****It was fun and somewhat jarring to finally see the person Duval was meant to represent in Greg's universe (it's also ironic that the TGS Duval is thwarting the Illuminati's efforts to recover the grail, when Greg's Duval/Illuminati already have it in their possession). I agree that the wheelchair is a little strange when the FK's servant still dresses in medieval garb. I don't quite get the relation between the FK and the grail, but I'm sure it'll be explained (what I mean is--who is ultimately in control? Is the FK deciding when Carbonek should appear, or is he just following cues given by the grail? Who actually decided Mary has to die? Is the FK making these rules up as he goes along, just so he can watch Arthur and Mary squirm? Will this turn out just like Abraham's trial, where the man's about to sacrifice his son when God stops him at the last minute and decrees him worthy? We've already been spoiled by TD and know Mary and Merlin are going to survive somehow, which difuses some of the tension (sadly). Now I'm left thinking of all the ways they might get out of their predicament. The most obvious one that comes to mind is that someone else will take Mary's place (Griff, perhaps? It's too bad that after the GK pronounced him worthy, he seems to have no role to play after all). Or that when Morgana realizes that Mary must be sacrificed, she gives Merlin an antidote so that the Grail becomes unecessary, and everyone forgives each other and lives happily ever after.

This fic brought back a lot of old characters (Ipsis, Molly, vampyres, Lucius), which was a lot of fun. Even seeing Cavall missing Arthur reminded me that he used to be part of the main cast (poor fellow must be feeling neglected). Jenn's father also comes back into the story, though I wonder why he's having these visions (it's not like in 'Buffy', where there was a reason why all the crazy people knew who Dawn and Glory were). It's also unfortunate that he wasn't hospitalized closer to the Grail's return site, since all the cancer patients there were cured. I'm surprised Duval's group managed to evacuate the area after all those miracles were reported (I'd figure that would just attract more people to the site).

As for Morgana and Nigel, I was *very* surprised neither made more of an effort to arrange their wedding so that Mary could attend. Nigel cares more about his daughter than that. I was also surprised Mary was still hesitant about revealing Morgana's identity. That ship has *so* sailed. Though I liked Nigel's reaction, wondering if traveling with Arthur made her "more than a little strange in the head". ;) I am surprised that he has a hard time accepting Morgana and Merlin, however, when they are obvious figures in Arthurian legend, and "Pennington"'s own true identity is all but confirmed. Morgana's name is the same, after all (shouldn't he have made the connection himself, or is he not actually familiar with the legend?). These revelations should be a big enough deal that he at least postpones the wedding, though. He should also be concerned by her obvious obsession with vengeance. Then again, he's been single for so long, maybe his standards aren't that high. :P I'm surprised Morgana fessed up to everything up until Mary brought up the Connection business. It was smart of her not to admit to it, but shouldn't that be gnawing at her just a little? Also, was that the first time Morgana's mentioned her daughter and husband being killed by Arthur? I thought she actually had a valid reason for her obsession there for a moment, until Mary revealed that Morgana was really the one responsible for both deaths. All of Morgana's hatred seems centered on Uther; the only reason she wants Arthur dead is because he's Uther's son. That really doesn't seem like that strong a case. She might be justified in hating Merlin, but Arthur? It's not like he asked to have all that happen so he could be born.

Misc> I found it somewhat ironic that Lance's sword was named Joyeux (unless he's the bloodthirsty type). I was surprised Arthur would break into the abbey again (the first time, he was ignorant of the law; he really should have learned better by now). I found that justification for the missing Stone of Destiny amusing (is Todd trying to correct Greg's mistake?). When Merlin worried about his soul going to hell, I was very disappointed in Arthur for brushing the matter aside and simply telling him "[not to] worry about it any more". Gee, that's reassuring. I did like the remark he made that maybe the real purpose of the grail quest was to get Arthur out of Britain so that he could see how big the world really was. A good lead into the next season, I suppose?

Overall, good fic. Um, seven-and-a-half magical throne-shaped wheelchairs out of ten? ;)*******
Vashkoda
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 02:37:55 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Ed> <>: Yes, but I consider Jersey to be a special place, not quit fully of this world, so some things are forgivable here.

Fire Storm> <<As long as they make money, who cares about anyone else>>: Well, if they annoy too many people, they won't make as much money.
<<Is this what using nuclear weapons does to a society?>>: I don't think that's all of it. Probably something to do with the forced international integration, too.
<<Why make a bread making manga in the first place?>>: They've got one about just about everything else.
<<we need to start another one for Ghastly to make more transgender Piro porn>>: And to make Freddy a hermaphrodite or at least introduce a true hermaphrodite. And anything else? More frequent Zebra Girl?
<<what would make this death any different than any other death?>>: It was on the series finale? He's now a heap of something rather than a rotting corpse or disassociated atoms?

Todd> <<Take a load of this>>: I saw http://www.gamespy.com/comics/kovalic/pokethulhu/ first, and I think it's the only place with an animated electric squid rat. That'd make a good name for a band.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 12:11:36 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Todd: <As for Cthulhu, I think that he's had to put up with worse than plush toys. Take a load of this! (Click my name, and you'll understand.)>
OH MY ELDER GODS!
*evil little chortle*
*ok, evil frelling laugh!*
*catch breath*
*GOTO 1*
(You know, the people at work know me well enough that when I am laughing, no good can be happening!)
*still laughing*
Fire Storm
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:00:46 PM
IP: 65.114.91.3

FIRESTORM - Maybe it helped that Mary loved Merlin back (which Nimue and Corbie didn't). And that Madoc is dead at last and his followers scattered. (But it's clear that they haven't gone beyond an occasional chaste kiss as yet, in light of how the unicorn responded to Mary.)

As for Cthulhu, I think that he's had to put up with worse than plush toys. Take a load of this! (Click my name, and you'll understand.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 08:38:08 PM
IP: 63.186.1.229

Todd: <Yep, Merlin's never given in once. I know that it may seem odd, but it's the truth>
But what makes Mary that much different? Or is it the fact that being near death made him revaluate things?

I dunno... I mean, everyone's nightmares are different. I think that many people would be able to look at him and think "I've dreamed scarrier"

Gside: <Customer convienence, sure... Their convenience definitely>
And that's about it. As long as they make money, who cares about anyone else.
<And I take it you've already got a mortgage. Or at least wisely don't want another debt building up>
Oh yeah. Got a mortgage. And I pay that from a separate bank account just incase events like THIS happen to the primary account.
<Oh, right, like "Girl Beats Boy". Ah, strange Japanese porn, I don't know what I'd do without you.>
Is this what using nuclear weapons does to a society? (Thanks SA for the near quote!)
<There's even a real recipe for the rice cooker cooked bread somewhere in there>
Not too surprised. I mean, Bagels are boiled before being baked, so why not have steamed bread?
<It makes it more interesting, and attracts more readers. Who would want to read a breadmaking manga where they only made normal bread all the time?>
Which brings up the question: Why make a bread making manga in the first place?
<Shall we start a petition?>
Yes! And why we are at it, we need to start another one for Ghastly to make more transgender Piro porn!
<And how many times was he cloned? Besides teh normal one, there was an episode with an evolved and devolved Crhichon.>
So, really, what would make this death any different than any other death?

DPH: <And this isn't the bank's fault>
I KNOW!
I will use the following angles:
It's YOUR fault!
It's my first offence!
If you won't fix a mistake you made now, why should I stay here?
Why shouldn't I tell my family not to go here?
And, finally, So... there's no reason to bring my business account here, is there?

Leo: <Funny, it souds just like Bank of America>
Yeah... it does. $90 I could tolerate. In the end, this is going to end up charging us over $1200, in bank fees AND late fees, bounced check fees, and other fees from the people those payments were meant to pay!

***SPOILERS FOR Carbonek Part 2***

"you must sacrifice Mary’s in exchange."
After a brief pause, Arthur breaks out in a sigh of relief.
"Oh, you scared me for a moment! You had me believe that I would have to give up something IMPORTANT!"
Mary looked at Arthur in disgust.
"Oh, come on Mary! You're only a knight! And to top it off, you aren't even 25! Merlin is 1500 years old! Heck, I think it's a BARGIN! He'll be ok. Sure, he will mourn your loss for a while, but really, what's even a century to an immortal?"
:)

Sorry, I HAD to say it!
I liked it. Want to see where this is going.
As for Mary... Well, we do know that she DOES survive... unless the time stream CAN be moved, at least a little. THEN it would be cool!... but the trouble in Merlin's future is related to his and Mary's kid, so...
Also want art. I'd draw, but I draw worse than shirt guy Dom!

*** END SPOILERS!***
Fire Storm
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 07:19:28 PM
IP: 65.114.91.3

*blink blink*

Wait, the TGS list didn't just go surprisingly quite the last few days? I haven't been getting any emails either.

O.o

someone wanna look into this?
Lynati
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 06:59:04 PM
IP: 65.66.159.95

ORDELL - That's terrible. I hope that you're able to get things worked out again soon. (I went through something similar with the list about a year ago.)

QUESTION - Lucius only says one word in all caps ("NOW"), and only for the purpose of emphasizing to the Minions that they have to get mobilized at once.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 06:53:41 PM
IP: 63.186.1.229

Vash: Thanks for the GNC ad. :)

Firestorm: Just had a look at my e-mails and it looks I posted the first draft of “Out of the Frying Pan” came in a couple of days after the premiere, and “Flight from the Enchanter” a few weeks later. Those, “Ride the Wild Winds”, “No Mercy”, “Wolves”, “Someone To Watch Over Me” and the finale all had late edits because of redrafting or first drafting if memory serves. Of course, we usually still have eleventh hour edits of the “missing full stop” variety.

Gunjack: After having seen Firestorm’s link, I take it all back about guns. ;)

Gside: Well, I was getting at the silliness of setting it in another country at all.

Question: Yeah, must admit, after I posted that I realised that this might actually be quite a fun movie after all. ;)

***CARBONEK, PART ONE SPOILERS***

Storyseeker: Thanks for reviewing the episode. I agree on your opinion of Nigel, nicely put. Like Todd, I’m sorry the Morgana issue was unclear. I saw it as her simply making her case most strongly with Mary rather than implicitly agreeing with Sybil: she does conclude that it will only take “two deaths” though, and I think she genuinely believes that to be the case.

Question: Well, technically, Nigel’s concern was how his image would suffer if his daughter was known to be a wolf. Being Morgana la Fay isn’t. I think it was concluded that Leba became a knight “off-camera” after “Beginning Again”. As for the wheelchair... well, how do you know it isn't a magic wheelchair. ;)

***END SPOILERS***
Ed
Cambridge, England
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 05:41:56 PM
IP: 131.111.8.102

<Why did Isfet think that the godslayer would lead her to Carbonek?> The only reason i can think of is either she thinks that Godsalyer is the Lance of Longinus or Godslayer is in truth the spear of destiny and according to the Arthurian Grail legand the fisher king had both the Spear and the Grail. In fact if i remember correctly the reason the fisher king is crippled is that he was wounded by the Spear.
Fionn O'Tir Bo Thunn
Middletown, CT, USA
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 04:11:08 PM
IP: 152.163.252.196

Nice story. Though I have to say that it seems way out of character for Nigel to continue with his marriage with Morgana when she reveals herself as the Morgana of legend. I mean he was practically willing to disown his own daughter just because he discovers that she is a werewolf.

Liked the bits with the Illuminati doing all their plotting and certainly the comparison with Carbonek and the Brocken. However I'd think that Lancelot being the founder and leader of the Inner Circle would certainly have more clout and influence than he demonstrated.

Meanwhile we see Lucius's final descent into cliche villainy when he starts talking in all capitals. Perhaps he should take lessons from Dr. Doom or his fellow academician turned raving sorceror Felix Faust. I just think it's a pity that he has gone this way seeing how he had so much potential when he started out in season 2 and in season 3.

Glad to see that you guys are trying to working the vampyres, minions and all the other little bads into the story. Would we be seeing Montrose in the story?

When did Leba become a knight?

Why did Isfet think that the godslayer would lead her to Carbonek? I'm really curious seeing how this plot thread was a two parter and how the godslayer is an instrument of vengeance something that would be incompatible with the Carbonek which I'd think would stand for more enlightened ideas, but then Tanaburs wants to trade Mary's life for a drink of the grail.

Okay finally that wheelchair thing for the Fisher King is just really really silly. They didn't even have a wheelchair for Xavier in Gaiman's 1602.
Question
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 03:52:22 PM
IP: 144.92.164.204

Alan - Your email address went into "bouncing" status. Check you email now and you should get a message from Yahoo Groups requesting you reactivate your account.
DPH
AR, USA
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 01:39:55 PM
IP: 161.31.104.136

Yo, TGS folks. I think I got kicked off the mailing list. Either that or it's been slow for the past few days. If someone would be so kind as to add me back, as I am completely clueless how. I have no computer at home right now, so I'll have to check stuff from work.
Alan Coleman Waltrip - [awaltrip@cableone.net]
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 01:05:10 PM
IP: 204.158.144.80

FireStorm:<<there is a $30 charge per transaction. - AND they said that because it's NOT a bank error (which it seems to me it is), they can only remove 2 charges. If I am unhappy with that, I can talk to the branch VP, who is of course, on vacation until next Monday. >> Funny, it souds just like Bank of America.

My brother just had a recent "overdraft" incident with them: he got an overdraft notice in the mail, charged $30 for each transaction. however, he was supposed to have overdraft protection and he HAD money in his savings account. When he went to the bank to complain they told him he did NOT hove overdraft protection. Needless to say he was PO'd. But when he looked at the documentation he got when he modified his account type (a year ago) he was surprised to discover that Overdraft Protection wasn't listed as one of the options he chose. It turns out that they accidentally removed his overdraft protection when they modified his account. But they said it was his responsibility to notify them of the error and since it happened so long ago they couldnt't do anything for him. So he lost $90.

Banks suck.

Leo
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 08:38:06 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

STORYSEEKER - Thanks for the review. Morgana hasn't given in, however. I'm sorry about having given you the wrong impression; I hadn't realized how her "Not Mary, though" line could be misinterpreted (again, the fact that we have a small Edits staff whose active members are only myself and Ed - both of whom worked on this story and so are "too close to it", hasn't helped matters much). But she hasn't given in, and I'm sorry about inadvertently giving the wrong impression.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 07:12:52 AM
IP: 63.186.0.127

***** TGS CR INFO UPDATES *****

ARCHIVE:

The 2003 Archive has been updated to include the weeks of October 6, 2003 through November 23, 2003 for a total of 6 newly added weeks.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/2003/

CR MEMBERS:

The calendar 'quick' links, which formerly led to October, on the index page have been updated and now direct to November.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/members/

ADDENDUM:

Additional updates are forthcoming, including several potential CR pics. I plan to update the CR files/scripts and submit them to Gorebash once the images I'm converting are finished and voted upon, and once I locate and update Gorebash's TGS CR scripts.

***** END TGS CR INFO UPDATES *****
Lady Mystic
Head Admin of TGS CR Information
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 06:30:57 AM
IP: 68.73.192.111

[SPOILERS]

Morgana seemed a little too quick to agree to Sybill's plan. I mean one moment she was saying that the gargoyles and lot had done no wrong to her and to let them live, then the next she said "Not Mary, though." It felt like you skipped a sentence or two there.

[GASP] Mary's life inexchange???!! Oh well, see ya Mary, been nice knowing ya [heh heh]. My guess is that it's probably going to be one of those big sacrifices where it isn't a life that's sacrificed, but she has to give something up. Then again, who knows? You can never tell with this saga.

I can understand Nigel's decision to still go ahead with the wedding. I mean, he's a practical man so even after having all of that proof shoved in his face, he still finds it hard to believe and is going ahead like nothing's the matter. That and it has been a while since his wife past away, for the first time in ages he must be actually happy and glad to have someone to love other than his daughter who's now always away.

Maybe this will all work out for the best then? If Nigel marrys her then perhaps Morgana will finally know a little peace and give up at least some of her vendetta.

Excellent addition Todd, Ed!! [thumbs up]
Storyseeker - [Storyseeker.1@btopenworld.com]
Birmingham, UK
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 06:27:34 AM
IP: 217.150.117.210

TGS proudly presents a Pendragon Season 4 Story . . .

Carbonek Part 1

Story idea by Todd Jensen.

Written by Todd Jensen.

Additional material provided by Ed Reynolds.

Click my name, go to the link at the top of the cr that says "Current Episode", or visit http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/ce.html to read this week's story.
DPH - [<--Click here to read this week's story]
AR, USA
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:03:58 AM
IP: 204.94.193.18

<What next? “Bush and Blair: The MovieE set in nineteenth century Holland, starring Patrick Stewart as Bush and Samuel L. Jackson and Blair? >

Well don't know about you, but I'd watch it. It sounds like fun if both Jackson and Stewart are starring in it.
Question
Monday, November 24, 2003 11:57:09 PM
IP: 216.170.210.200

Hmm. Trick question: What are the odds of using an old version of NC to access msn.com *and* said version of NC doesn't crash while trying to access the website?

I've been renting a lot of movies lately. I enjoyed "DareDevil", watched "Return of the Jedi" to indeed confirm how much Anakin Skywalker learned about his children. How close to original continuity was "Hulk"?

I find it curious that I *every* time I look for a VHS copy of "The Matrix", it's never there, but there are adundant copies of "Matrix Reloaded" on VHS.

Fire Storm - <SO, my bank didn't send me any notices, so for two weeks, I used my card as normal. $5 here, $10 there... SO, in the end, I have $600 in fees because of $150-200 in purchases.> And this isn't the bank's fault?

There's a black cat who keeps . . annoying me from time to time. I just feed him a chicken bone and then let him outside to eat cat food and he . .just insists on coming back in my house, despite being bored in my house and just meowing at me. He's been trying to jump on my lap, so far I have resisted, but who knows how long before he employs strategy to outwit me. Just sent him outside.

Brrr. It's cold. Winterwolf, where are ye?
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, November 24, 2003 11:51:17 PM
IP: 204.94.193.18

Greg> <<News broke about this a week or so ago>>: Never heard the full story.
<>: As do I.

Bud Clare> <<It's funny how you can make just about anything sound dirty>>: Just wait until I actually try.

Ed> <<a movie about Jamie Oliver. It gets better: they’re setting it in New Jersey>>: Setting a movie about a British Chef in Jersey? I'm from Jersey and I like it, but I still don't think it'd work.

Fire Storm> <<my bank didn't send me any notices>>: Customer convienence, sure... Their convenience definitely.
<<savings/investments = the house>>: And I take it you've already got a mortgage. Or at least wisely don't want another debt building up.
<<But since I don't pimp it, I have a lot of bandwidth>>: Which is very good for those who know about it.
<<In the ones where they make fun of the people who are NOT well hung>>: Oh, right, like "Girl Beats Boy". Ah, strange Japanese porn, I don't know what I'd do without you.
<<and some of those methods seem possible>>: There's even a real recipe for the rice cooker cooked bread somewhere in there.
<<What's with the Japanese and having weird methods of cooking in Anime/Manga?>>: It makes it more interesting, and attracts more readers. Who would want to read a breadmaking manga where they only made normal bread all the time?
<<You know it!>>: Shall we start a petition?
<<Sucks! Any relation at all?>>: It's not that bad, it makes a good story. And we doubt there was any relation, just that it as a bad time to be an actor named Booth.
<<Crichton's died how many other times now?>>: And how many times was he cloned? Besides teh normal one, there was an episode with an evolved and devolved Crhichon.
<<Hmm... maybe Erin's pieces end up in Crichton>>: They've already done that joke. Though they haven't done "So that's what it's like".

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, November 24, 2003 11:37:29 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

FIRE STORM - Yep, Merlin's never given in once. I know that it may seem odd, but it's the truth.

I think that the "real Cthulhu" is sufficiently nightmarish that even the plush toys would not be sufficient preparation in facing him.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, November 24, 2003 07:14:11 PM
IP: 63.186.1.122

Mooncat: <But had to say, KAWAIIIIII!!!! That is the cutest Cthulu I've ever seen *^_^*>
I don't think he would be too happy to hear that!

Gside: <That's a lot of fees in not many days.>
It got worse. It's now up to $600 in fees. Apparently the bank has a policy of allowing transactions to go through when an account is overdrawn for "customer convenience," and for your "convenience," there is a $30 charge per transaction.
I have no idea when this came into effect, but in the past, when I was out of money, I was unable to use my card, and since I was unable to use my card, I went to the bank and found out why.
SO, my bank didn't send me any notices, so for two weeks, I used my card as normal. $5 here, $10 there...
SO, in the end, I have $600 in fees because of $150-200 in purchases.
AND they said that because it's NOT a bank error (which it seems to me it is), they can only remove 2 charges. If I am unhappy with that, I can talk to the branch VP, who is of course, on vacation until next Monday.
Oh, and BTW, the bank is Comerica.
<That's a lot of fees in not many days.>
Thank the True Stories movie network for that bit of news.
<Wehn I said waht you have now, I meant savings/investments, not income>
savings/investments = the house. All savings were wiped out, and any I DID have were wiped out by "convenience"
<But still, even if it's a last desperate hold out, it's still a good thing to have a place to go.>
True... But still... I bet I would be hired back in at less money and worse hours.
<Nor did I, but you don't pimp your own domain out much, so I wan't thinking of that>
True. But since I don't pimp it, I have a lot of bandwidth
<Of course they are. It's porn, and when was the last time you saw someone who wasn't well hung in porn?>
In the ones where they make fun of the people who are NOT well hung!
<And the list will go on.>
Interesting... and some of those methods seem possible.
What's with the Japanese and having weird methods of cooking in Anime/Manga?

You know it!
<Not bad. The closest I can come is that some branch branch of my family came from a bunch of Booths who were actors, and who changed their names soon after Lincoln's assassination.>
Sucks! Any relation at all?

Todd: <Well, IMO, Merlin's still a virgin>
1500 years and he NEVER got his groove on? Fear is one thing, but...
1500 years? Even when he was a teen, he never gave in to his desires? Never in 1500 years did he use a protection spell or a non-conception spell?
<Something else that I forgot to mention was, I wonder what H. P. Lovecraft would say if he knew about some of these interpretations of Cthulhu out there>
Heck, I wonder what Cthulhu would think should IT ever rise! You know... supposedly, just looking at or hearing IT would drive you crazy... but I think that people are a lot more jaded now.

Revel: <*blinks* You sure you're not a texas driver?>
No, but I call my particular style of driving "Combat Driving"
<Cut across three lanes of traffic>
Hate people who do that.
<through a parking lot, over the curb and back to where I wanted to turn>
Done that, though.

Ed: <The release date decision comes after the stories are done>
That's a good thing. So... what percentage of Pendragon for this season was done before the season premiere?
<What next? “Bush and Blair: The Movie”, set in nineteenth century Holland, starring Patrick Stewart as Bush and Samuel L. Jackson and Blair?>
Samuel L would have to be a bad @$$ gun toting MF, and Patrick Stewart would be a suave talking gentleman for it to work right!

Bud-Clare: <You're one of those people that I hate>
But it was only the one time, I swear!
In my defense, I was pissed and when I am pissed, I focus that on road rage...
And I was VERY pissed.

Jaden: <I'd like to think that there was a flaw. Did you see the last episode?>
Oh, like that's stopped Farscape! Hell, Crichton's died how many other times now? 2? 3?
Besides... as long as they have all the pieces, they can put him back together!
Hmm... maybe Erin's pieces end up in Crichton...

Link: There is justice in the world after all!
Fire Storm - [<--- Justice!]
Monday, November 24, 2003 07:05:26 PM
IP: 65.114.91.3

GRAYMONK - Well, what I'd really miss about your reviews isn't so much the format (although I still like the fact that they're organized) as the fact that they're in-depth ones. Currently, you and Vashkoda are about the only people writing reviews for "Pendragon" that I can think of who write fairly long and in-depth ones; almost everybody else generally goes for one or two quick comments and that's it. Which raises a quandary. On the one hand, the people who write the detailed reviews are the ones most likely to make good, intelligent contributions to Breakdowns. On the other hand, if those same people join Breakdowns, we wind up with a smaller amount of in-depth reviews and commentaries. That's where I feel a conflict.

Best wishes on Book Six - that's the "war in Heaven" part, I recall, complete with Satan inventing gunpowder and cannons. That should definitely be interesting to illustrate.

Probably the biggest drawback of the dropping of "The Voice of Saruman" from the third movie is that it's likely to leave those viewers who aren't familiar with the book wondering where Pippin suddenly got that palantir from. However, I'm looking forward to "The Return of the King", all the same; it should be interesting to see it handling the other monsters (Shelob, more of the Fell Beasts, the Oliphaunts/Mumakil, the Watchers - and it's even been indicated in the publications about the third movie that we'd be seeing some weird critters hauling Grond up to the gates of Minas Tirith, though we haven't had it confirmed as yet; I hope that it's true).

One other note about the "first draft" period of Season Four: the original concept for "Ride the Wild Winds" was Arthur clashing with a biker gang terrorizing a village in northern England that had gone for "knights of the Round Table" trappings. Then, however, we started talking about making the "biker knights" into foils for Rory - particularly in developing his fears of going berserk that had been introduced in "Dark Passions" - and so decided to make it a Rory episode, which led to the bikers developing an imagery more out of Irish mythology to make them more appropriate antagonists for him, and so "Ride the Wild Winds" was born.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, November 24, 2003 06:57:17 PM
IP: 63.186.1.122

******
Re: Merlin. <When did Merlin become a druid? I though Blaise taught him and Blaise was from that Order of Scholars from Rome.> Maybe the Merlin were talking about isn't a druid but most of what I've read about Merlin has him as a Druid and Merlin the "Madman of the caledonian forest" is refered to as a druid. Anyway even if Merlin isn't a druid as defined by either AD&D or Websters dictionary the Welsh word for magicain or prophet is derived from druid.

<Where are you getting this because I don't recall this ever being brought up in the tgs stories or is this just fanwank?> It's my own reasoning.
Fionn O' Tir Bo Thuinn
Middletown, CT, USA
Monday, November 24, 2003 05:13:23 PM
IP: 205.188.209.40

Incase I don't get to say it sooner: Happy Thanksgiving!
I can't believe how fast November went by, my teachers are already talking about finals. EEP!

Fire Storm- I'd like to think that there was a flaw. Did you see the last episode? If not then stop reading....now.

The two main characters were apparently killed in the last minute. Who ends a show like that? A major cliff-hanger.

Damn, late for class.

Later.
Jaden - [jaden1444@aol.com]
Monday, November 24, 2003 01:23:28 PM
IP: 4.46.138.225

I don’t believe it… they’re talking about making a movie about Jamie Oliver. It gets better: they’re setting it in New Jersey. It gets better still: Orlando Bloom and Ewan McGregor have been talked about. A ‘loose adaptation’ of his life is right.

What next? “Bush and Blair: The Movie”, set in nineteenth century Holland, starring Patrick Stewart as Bush and Samuel L. Jackson and Blair?

Lain: Tut, you disorganised ‘Bad Guys’ people, letting the side down. ;)

Graymonk: Like Todd, I’m delighted to hear that you’re interested in joining the season 5 ‘Pendragon’ staff. And as an ex-reviewer, I know exactly what you mean about putting your money where your mouth is. ;) As for your concerns over joining the ‘Dark Ages’ staff, to be honest just having another voice who knows what’s going on is helpful. The ‘Dead Zone’ guide is interesting, though we did have a very comprehensive Bible for season 4 that Todd put together, and hopefully we’ll be able to update it for season 5 too. And you’re right about the regular cast members. As it happens, the original idea was to have all the knights – including Rory, Dulci and Leba – join the quest as well (and you can see them in “Choices” and “Dinas Bran” of course), but I believe Todd thought the numbers would be too unwieldy for a quest series. I think it worked better having Rory and Dulci tied back to their territories a bit (although we never got around to explore much of what they’ve been up to yet), and making Leba the person co-ordinating things from London.

Todd: I’m still a bit concerned about recruiting people familiar with Arthurian legend but not ‘Pendragon’ necessarily. We did a lot of retrospection in season 4, but I’m not sure Arthur’s background will be quite as relevant next season. If we’re going to recruit from outside fandom, it might be interesting to try and find people with more diverse interests. Not that I think that many such people would be lining up to join, though.

Vash: Well the plan was to announce the recruitment drive to coincide with the final episode, but there’s no need to make a secret of it. As for Mary, I think she’s always been a bit of a pessimist going back to season 3, and after eleven months searching, I think you’d be a bit pessimistic too. ;)

Greg: Although I’m not exactly the biggest fan of Jackson’s LOTR films, I think plot-wise cutting Saruman is the right decision. If you take out ‘Scourging of the Shire’ and have already shown the assault on Isengard at the end of the last film, it’s just going to hang there without doing much and there’s so much else worth dramatising. (Although cinematically, it has the potential to be a quite unique experience, trying to have Saruman charm the armies below him and by extension charming the audiences he’d be towering over on screen.)
Ed
Cambridge, England
Monday, November 24, 2003 01:20:55 PM
IP: 131.111.8.103

Todd - <<No kidding. You're actually doing "Paradise Lost" character designs?>> No kidding at all. For my final project for my design and colour course I'm hoping to adapt Paradise Lost Book 6 into comic book form (and yes, I know, I might as well put a gun to my head now).

<<I've mixed feelings about your wanting to help out for Season Five of "Pendragon". . . . I'd miss your reviews (especially their sorting things out into "Good", "Bad", and "Miscellaneous", and the "such-and-such a number out of ten [insert noun here]" system).>> *Graymonk scuffs shoes and fidgets nervously* Weeeeeeell I have to admit I pretty much out right stole that system from "Hero Illustrated" magazine and Juan, the guy who did the episode reviews for the Gargoyles Fan Website, so I really don't have any sort of exclusive claim on it, anyone who wants to can just come in and use and pick things up where I left off (ouch, my English profs would kill me if they saw that run-on sentance).
Graymonk
Monday, November 24, 2003 12:10:04 PM
IP: 198.164.140.100

Fionn O' Tir Bo Thuinn <Merlin is a Druid>

When did Merlin become a druid? I though Blaise taught him and Blaise was from that Order of Scholars from Rome.

<but by becomeing Emrys he reset him self there by removeing/eraseing what ever it is that Unicorns detect in non-virginal males.>

Where are you getting this because I don't recall this ever being brought up in the tgs stories or is this just fanwank?
Question
Monday, November 24, 2003 09:51:22 AM
IP: 144.92.164.204

Tenth?

_____________________
Wolf E.> <<Congrats on your 4.0.>>
Thanks. :)
_______________________
Todd> <<I've been out of the house on Wednesday evenings for the last few years, so once "Angel" moved there, I haven't been able to watch it.>>
Ouch.
_____________________
Gside> <<Take what you can get. Good attitude, I'd say.>>
It's funny how you can make just about anything sound dirty.
______________________
Fire Storm> <<I'd start a club of like minded people, but I doubt I'd have time to show up.>>
I'd show up for awhile, just to have an excuse not to do other things.

<>
You're one of those people that I hate.
______________________
Spacebabie> <<He told them it was a cup in a chalice>>
*pats consolingly* Of course it was, dear. ;)
______________________
Revel> <>
If I were that consistent, I wouldn't have needed the 4.0 so badly. One more quarter, and I should have my GPA back up to a level that I'm okay with.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, November 24, 2003 01:13:10 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

TYPO

"It's sad that it won't be on the DVD" should have been "It's sad that it won't be on theactrical version"
Greg Bishansky
Monday, November 24, 2003 01:08:23 AM
IP: 216.179.3.119

TYPO

"It's sad that it won't be on the DVD" should have been "It's sad that it won't be on theactrical version"
Greg Bishansky
Monday, November 24, 2003 01:08:21 AM
IP: 216.179.3.119

GSIDE> Well, those DVD extras were probably recorded months ago, when the "Voice of Saruman" scene was still in there (the Scouring was never filmed). Though at the 11th hour of editing, they were cut. News broke about this a week or so ago. It was cut for "pacing reasons". In short, Peter Jackson all but admits he screwed up, and it should have been at the end of the Two Towers. The scenes will be at the beginning of the Return of the King Extended Edition DVD.

Me, I've already ranted and raved about this shortly after news broke. I've pretty much come to terms and accepted it. We'll see it eventually. It's sad that it won't be on the DVD. Peter Jackson has made two good movies so far, and even better Extended Edition DVDs, I'm sure there will be a lot of other great stuff in the theactrical release of ROTK. I still eagerly anticipate it.
Greg Bishansky
Monday, November 24, 2003 01:04:19 AM
IP: 216.179.3.119

8th.
Leo
Monday, November 24, 2003 12:17:31 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Hey -- I just got lucky 7th... =)
silvadel
Monday, November 24, 2003 12:10:46 AM
IP: 24.225.134.30

Fire Storm> <<First sex change ever. Nice, eh?>>: Not bad. The closest I can come is that some branch branch of my family came from a bunch of Booths who were actors, and who changed their names soon after Lincoln's assassination.

Greg> <<especially since that's where all of Saruman's scenes went>>: But the thing I don't get is, in the Towers DVD, they said they where planning on starting out Returnwith the confrontation with Saruman to serve as a reintroduction. I got the impression that a lost of the documentary interviews were conducted after the theatrical release. So were they really able to figure out a new starting point in under a year?

Revel> <<What are you going to do if they don't put it on the extended edition either?>>: Berserker rage.
<<You may grow tentecles now, you know>>: Where can I find these animal crackers?
<<And we all know what Helen said to Ian, don't we?>>: Yes, but it wasn't a specific threat. And if you look at it one way, it could be a promise of a favorable outcome.

Ed> <<I’m still not clear about the automation thing>>: Don't worry, nor am I (what needs to be done, not how to do it). And I still get access to the inner workings of the website.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, November 24, 2003 12:03:56 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Vinnie - <So Merlin is the worlds oldest virgin!> I would hope one of my fellow tgs staff members would correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there's somebody who's held their viriginity a whole magnitude of time longer than Merlin: Harthoth.
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, November 23, 2003 11:28:54 PM
IP: 204.94.193.31

Top 10, #6?
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, November 23, 2003 11:07:59 PM
IP: 204.94.193.31

Eagle 5 coming in for a landing.
Revel
Sunday, November 23, 2003 11:07:00 PM
IP: 129.120.174.168

Fourth! :)
Ravyn
Sunday, November 23, 2003 11:02:41 PM
IP: 69.9.28.73

Of course the room changes *after* I leave my post. 3rd I guess, or thereabouts.
Vash
Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:58:27 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

hola hola

#2
V.
Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:40:30 PM
IP: 4.7.35.8

1st.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:38:47 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199