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Happy birthday to me. And Silvadel.

Lain> <<the only ones im ever going to have, barring some horrible, stupid accident>>: Which will happen, don't worry.
<>: You know, it could just be artist's paranoia. Has Gunjack agreed with you (without any implied threats)? And are you sure you can't dig up something old?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, January 26, 2004 12:12:27 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Lain: *Dottie-dog passes her purple and white sweater that my mom cruely put on her at Christmas* Glad he's ok. :D

Other than that, school has me, snow has me (like 6 inches today! weeeee!) and the rest of life has me. Dad made it home ok for leave, but goes back tommorow. :( Oh well. He said in Feb. his unit packs up to make the long journey home completely. Yea!
Will be lurking until something draws me out, or school expels me (not too likely).
Dezi
Monday, January 26, 2004 12:10:45 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

bud clare>> <> yes, he is (thankfully) OK. thanks to graymonk, leo and spacebabie for concern. i had to cuddle him in the bathtub with lukewarm water, gradually warming it up and then wrap him in towels and blankets and snuggle him for about 45 minutes until he stopped shivering all over the place - he was cold right through.
and yes, you can call him my baby. the 5 cats and 1 dog are all my fur-children.. (the only ones im ever going to have, barring some horrible, stupid accident...)

krista>> youre from texas? which part? im from canada, but currently living in texas (near dallas). <<Okay, I've decided: 7:00 is way too early to get up>> you should try 2:45am. now that REALLY stinks... <> except when you have to slosh through the mud pit it makes in your back yard..

im having a grumpy day. i cant draw worth a stink - every time i try, it just comes out looking like birdcage liner... which really stinks because i was always jealous that the "artists as gargoyles" MGC contest happened before i was around and i always wished i could have done it. think i could take a photo of all those screwed up pieces of paper and submit that? :P:P:P:P:P
*beats head on desk*
lain
Sunday, January 25, 2004 10:03:41 PM
IP: 4.7.35.8

grrrrr
Krista
Sunday, January 25, 2004 09:37:26 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

The Trio's possible mates and Mary Sue - um, no there are a lot more female gargs in the cannon of the show than just Angela, Delilah and Demona. There's the Avalon clan, the Ishimura clan, etc. True, the fleshing out of the mostly nameless, in some cases faceless fem gargs would tend to make them a bit OC, doesn't mean they have to fill a Mary Sue mold. The Trio could find mates, and those mates might be background characters, or at least not the focal characters of the fic. And hey, they don't have to find true love/mates in every fic *^_^*.

I've lost count of all the fics I've read that paired Lex or Brook with Delilah, or Demona, and in a few cases Angela. Apparently shrinking gene pool isn't too much a problem if you consider their kids have a choice of mates from the eggs of at least 4 other known clans.

*fighting the uncontrollable coughs*
Mooncat

Mooncat
Sunday, January 25, 2004 09:29:13 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Bud-Clare - <*facepalm* For crying out loud...>
Discretion is the better part of valor. You have to pick your battles. I'd say let this one go. Just grin and bear it.

Krista - 
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you took an Iq test on the Internet, you'd be better off picking a number between 1 and 200 out of a hat. I'm smart, but I'm not a "high genius" with a 170+ Iq like those tests say I am.

Peace
Z
Sunday, January 25, 2004 07:27:12 PM
IP: 67.65.155.228

Well, that was a little embarassing.
Grrr.
Krista
Sunday, January 25, 2004 06:48:47 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Oh! Oh! So happy! I just took and adult's IQ quiz and got a 120! Oh! Oh! So happy!
Krista
Sunday, January 25, 2004 06:47:59 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Krista> By "baby" I mean dog, because I'm...just...crazy, maybe.
Bud-Clare
Sunday, January 25, 2004 06:06:31 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Budclare: <lain: I hope your baby is okay :( >
Why? I know, you might find this a little "butting in" but, is everything all right?
Krista
Sunday, January 25, 2004 05:57:08 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

lain> I hope your baby is okay. :(
_______________________
Graymonk> <<No, but surely a sweet, brilliant, wonderful, gracious, generous godess such as yourself wouldn't mind telling me how I might find this easter egg of which you speak. Pretty-Please?>>
Since you put it that way...
http://www.livejournal.com/community/fireflyfans/63304.html
(Nevermind the fact that it took me longer to find the link than it would have taken me to just type it myself. Sometimes laziness is awfully counterproductive.)
________________________
Fire Storm> <<*Reads kjay's post* Yeah. What he said.>>
She.

<<After Buffy dusts the vampires, Krysil approaches Buffy...
And immediately gets staked. :)>>
That doesn't count, unless it takes a really long time to get to the staking bit. Who doesn't want to watch a Sue die in a funny way?

<<If Mary Sues were totally avoided, the trio have just Angela, Delilah, and Demona to mate with.>>
*facepalm* For crying out loud...
Bud-Clare
Sunday, January 25, 2004 05:10:15 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Question: I’m sure it’s possible to do good material despite a retrospective focus but that doesn’t mean it’s generally desirable. There are so many new areas to explore that while using continuity to break new ground is good, it’s worth remembering that keeping a continuity in order is only one of a number of things that are going to make a good story, and almost certainly not the most important one either.

Krista: Amen, on the peacefulness and bliss of a rainy day. Love it.

Lynati: But independent fanfics aren’t really the same kind of thing: they can move back and forth and in and out of their own continuity and they’re only really mandated to interest the writer. TGS is trying to tell a co-ordinated series, and this means a reliance on forward momentum. There’s nothing wrong with building continuity and information as you go – for example, Goliath finding out who owned the Fortress I in the process of a new story about the Fortress II in “Outfoxed”; or answering some questions about what happened to old characters in the process of telling Demona’s history in “City of Stone”. But to be really satisfying you need that forward momentum.
Ed
Sunday, January 25, 2004 03:57:11 PM
IP: 131.111.8.98

Firestorm and Mooncat- you all made some very good points- Isn't one of the most annoying thing about bad Mary Sues is that they come out like Westly Crusher from Star Trek next Generation- perfect, super intelligent/powerful/beautiful- that everyone loves? ack!

I tried in my own fledging attempts to avoid this- though I will admit that though the character (salome) is my gender, she is not my age.(I have to admit I'm older-noooo!) And the more she develops in my notes, ect the more I'm like (oh please don't let this be like the character- she is so messed up!)

From what I've seen on the Star Trek side- is that bad Mary Sues aren't really needed by the other characters. The other characters all love the Mary sue, but there isn't really any type of need for the Mary Sue to be there. And if the character is perfect to begin with- then that gets really old after awhile....

cairo
Sunday, January 25, 2004 02:05:22 PM
IP: 65.69.5.202

Krista: It's in the single digits up here in Detroit. I'd give you a weather.com link, but their site seems screwy.
ZIP: 48124
FIre Storm
Sunday, January 25, 2004 11:20:07 AM
IP: 68.74.31.129

I feel so sorry for you guys up north. Just how cold is it, anyway? I'm soooo glad it doesn't get that cold. Though, I wish we *did* see some snow every once in a while. Here, we don't have snow days. We have ice days, which are not always a good thing for us. We have to wait until it melts. That should show you just how often we even get ice: not a lot. About once a year. Grrrr.
Krista
TX
Sunday, January 25, 2004 09:28:47 AM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Okay, I've decided: 7:00 is way too early to get up.
Krista
Sunday, January 25, 2004 09:02:38 AM
IP: 68.185.206.251

x-rated Garg fics - Actually, it's a subject discussed quite a lot... on the adult gargoyles message boards *^_^* This room is more geared to PG13 to soft R content. For reviews and discussions of adult Garg fic/art etc, you may want to check out the Gargoyles X message board (shameless plug!) - there is a link in my author's listing on the Gargoyles Fan Website.

But as for the good, the bad, and the ugly of garg X-rated fan fics, there is the same mix you find in the general rated fics. Some writers do it well, others do it poorly. Like with Mary Sue, it's the art of the writer that makes it fly or flop.

I've been partial to the better written Garg fics with hard R/x-rated content, and most of my own Garg fic is in the adult rated section. I try to make my fics a bit more plot oriented than just 'charaacter A' sees 'character B' and they say hello and then start undressing and getting it on. I've seen some fics that are like that, and like with a bad Mary Sue am inclined to run away as fast as my kitty paws take me. But others, like Christine Morgan, Madame Destine, etc simply send me, and it's more than the sex, but how well written the whole piece WITH the sex is presented.

Some other writers I'd recommend, Summer Jackel, Puaena, Denigoddess, Allaine, Ellen Stolfa, Princess Alexandria, are all writers who've pushed past the R rating with what I consider credible success. There are others I'm missing, but this is just off the top of my head.

A lot of the enjoyment, or not, can depend on one's taste in pairing. If one is only a fan of Goliath/Elisa, or just straight/het fic, then fics which pair off Elisa/Demona or Goliath/Xanatos may not tickle your fancy, even if they are well written. On the other hand, if you are a rabid fan of a particular pairing, say Brooklyn/Angela, then even a mediocre fic may be of interest, simply because it plays to your particular ship'ness. If it's a pairing that is very rarely explored, even a poor fic may be treasured because of the rarity... however if the fic is exceedingly awful, even a devoted fan-shipper may treat it as anthema.

One's liking of a particular fic, however rated, can be dependant on a lot of things. I'm very fond of Demona/Macbeth, so will likely read any fic throwing them together. It's a rare enough pairing (which I find odd) I'd keep tabs on the story, even if it is what I might consider poor writing. A well written piece with them, well I'd count it precious beyond price.

My own writings, adult and otherwise, are available in the GFW archive. My fics are generally Demona oriented, but occasionally play with other characters. I even have some Elisa/Goliath fic. I also co-write as one of the Wyrd Sisters (writing group) on the Elisa/Demona series "Protect and Serve" -- in the authors' listing that would be: Luna, Phoebe, and Selene -- I'm Selene. (2nd shameless plug!!!)

ciao
>^,,^<

mooncat
Sunday, January 25, 2004 04:33:13 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

*walks out the train station to enjoy her 5 day leave in brooklyn new york* WHY didn't SOMEBODY warn me that it is THIS COLD??????????!!!!!!! I'M NOT coming back to NEW YORK
until the gathering (that is if I'm able to go)!!!!!!
X-rated fanfic writers>Here is a topic that is not talked about alot. I not against people who write an x-rated scene
or a fic about Gargoyles or any other fanfic. Here are a list of things that make me shudder with repulsion:
1. A badly written scene:'nuff said.
2. Sex scenes that are thrown around like candy/written for
no appearent reason.- I have read some x-rated fics that are written really well but the author OVER does it. Sometimes I just sit there and count(and cringe) at every scene. The most I ever counted in a fic was 6. Most of the time the scene starts out like this for example, "Elisa gives Goliath a kiss goodnite. Goliath kisses Elisa back and unbuttons her pants." You see where I'm going? They are just giving each other a kiss good night there is no need to always break out into a sex scene. If I read a x-rated fic and I see that it is going in this direction I
click away from it.
3. The scene is out of taste with the character(s)/the scene starts to sound pornografic- There was this fanfic that I read that had me thinking, "Oh hell no!!!! Elisa would NOT be doing THAT!!" If you are going to write an
x-rated scene that contains a main character please think
about the character's personality while you are doing it.
Now there are some other writers that get out of contol when they write a x-scene. When you read these things you don't think "love scene", you think "porn flick". Sometimes
when I read these fics I think, "Is this person CRAZY?"
"How do they know about THAT?!" and "I never knew people did THAT!" There are times that I wonder if people self-insert stuff that they did in this fics.
In the end the only author that writes x-rated fics I give credit to so far is Cristine Morgan (forgive me if I spell your name wrong).
Her scenes are well balanced out and are well written. When
she does write a scene that is a little bit crazy there is
a reason why. I'm not flaming x-rated Gargfic per se, but I
just hate badly written ones. Putting a lot of really life
scenes in Gargfics shows's a sense of realism. Just like in
the episode "Deadly Force". But it's just how you make these scenes. That's just my 2 cents.
God it's cold!!!!!!!!

kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Sunday, January 25, 2004 03:04:56 AM
IP: 172.135.139.113

Spent most of the day in Philly, and ate at a nice diner place with great shakes.

Fire Storm> <<T3h G0@7$E G0 B00M>>: But do not fear, the picture will never disappear completely.
<<We will use a temporary safe house (IE: We will break into someone else's house)>>: Excellent idea. Do you have anyone in mind?
<<And just forget about the little things like the conservation of matter/energy>>: They never said anything about how much energy the tech used.
<>: That's a good start, but you're not diversifying enough. My ultimate sexiness knows no boundaries.
<<it's more fun to swindle once>>: As long as your enjoyment makes up for the lost profits.
<<Diesel vibrorangs?>>: Well, maybe not them, but the non projectiles.
<<"I will be a good boy mommy. I will be a good boy.">>: I'm sure you think that now, Jeremy dear, but you said the same thing after the incident with the family cat. I'm not sure I can trust you any more.
<<Wrong... but good sort of way>>: It seems like it would be.
<<???>>: Jack being one of those preventing citizens from pleasuring themselves.
<<OH! OH! Can I help?>>: Be my guest. I'm sure you have enough experience.

Spacebabie> <<why couldn’t it have been Barney instead?>>: Because the person inside the suit was never important.
<<Like a certain Spike story?>>: I thought that was a deathmatch, not an army.
<<Where the frell have you been?>>: Grad school.

Krista> <<Y'all really ought to get on the station8 chat room>>: I find myself more a forum than a chat person. And I think it's safe to assume most of the regulars here aleady know of it.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, January 25, 2004 12:20:19 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

GRAYMONK - Yes, that was actually what I thought would be the focus of a hypothetical story in which Mary and Robyn were to meet. (I doubt that it'll ever be written in TGS, since "Pendragon" is over now and I don't think that the "Bad Guys" staff have any plans for Mary to make a guest appearance in "Bad Guys".) I suspect that Nigel would certainly not be too happy about such a meeting; he doesn't consider Robyn a very appropriate role-model for his daughter, in light of her vigilantism (not to mention her outfits). I certainly doubt that he'd have approved of Robyn's career either during her "Hunters" period or her "Redemption Squad" period. (Nigel's not all that fond of gargoyles, but he believes that hunting them should be left to the proper authorities like the Gargoyle Task Force, not to self-appointed groups like the Hunters and Quarrymen, and would definitely have objected to the clock tower incident in a most vehement fashion.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, January 24, 2004 09:06:33 PM
IP: 63.186.1.172

It's raining! It's pouring! And I am so happy! I can't ryhm without a dime and it doesn't even make sense!

I love the rain. It's so...so...peacful. The perfect days for writing are always the rainy ones. Especially Saturdays and Sundays and School days and- well, basically, any rainy day is a good on for me! Especially if I can sit on my Grandma's front porch, BIG front porch, on the swing with my journal or just staring. Staring out into the rain and thinking. Rememboring...as my eyes travel up memory lane, that goes swiftly past right in front of the house...as I remember how I would wave as I left...
Okay! I really ought to write a poem from that.

*wonders out dreamily to sit on the swing a fasten a few umbrellas on the monkey bars above*
Krista
Saturday, January 24, 2004 07:13:02 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Bud-Clare -<<You know how to get the easter egg?>> *eyes pop* No, but surely a sweet, brilliant, wonderful, gracious, generous godess such as yourself wouldn't mind telling me how I might find this easter egg of which you speak. Pretty-Please?

Todd - <<Good points about Mary and Robyn, but what I was thinking of was more their tone and atmosphere. Mary's part of a set of idealistic latter-day Arthurian knights with a focus on morality and honor. Robyn's due to become the leader of a team of relatively amoral ex-villains.>> True, however clashing tone and atmosphere can make for interesting stories. Look at Superman and Batman, their respective corners of the DC universe couldn't be more different, yet they make such an interesting combination that they have their own monthly team-up book.

Gside - <<Did he get any pants? ("Solomon Grundy want pants too")>> Yes, Overalls I believe.

Re:Captain Kangaroo - Damn, I never realised how much time I spent watching that show until now :(

Lain - Here's hoping the poor fella gets well soon.
Graymonk
Saturday, January 24, 2004 04:02:41 PM
IP: 198.164.140.100

Ya ya! Brooklyn is my all time favorite character! He is my back ground on my desktop! Not to mention my screen saver...
Krista
Saturday, January 24, 2004 02:09:46 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Hi hi peoples. Y'all really ought to get on the station8 chat room. It's fun. Lots of peoples. Lots of conversation. Fun.
Krista
Saturday, January 24, 2004 02:04:58 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

|_!|<3 0MG\/\/7FBbQ? 7H1$ !$ T|-|3 $uXX0R! T3h G0@7$E G0 B00M!
R!P D00d!
D347h ()F @ L3g3?\/|)

Hmm... It appears that I need a translation. Let me see...
It is my sad, sad duty for me to present this news. A real legend of the Internet has been taken down. I, of course, am refering to Goatse. Never again shall learned Internet professionals be able to affect newbies with the gaping madness.
Rest in peace, my friend.
Fire Storm
Saturday, January 24, 2004 01:21:35 PM
IP: 65.114.91.3

Holy cow…Josh posted?

Sorry about my lack of posts…playing Sims Delux…I’ll end up getting Sims II when they get some expansion packs. Mades Sims of myself and Revel…He’s a cirminal and I’m a psychic…of Aaron, Mara and Lynati. Aaron is an actor, Mara a politician and Lynati is a hacker. I may have to add more so we can get some more friends. The pleasant family already threw a party with buffet table and dance floor. I love the Genie and the Chemistry set! I already managed to create two love potions, turn someone invisible and turn someone into a monster.

Mary Sues: The mates of Lexington, Brooklyn and Castaway. I'm a little like Marle in the fact I belive in live and let live. she's a vegetarian who doesn't believe in forcing Brooklyn to give up meat. If he wants to eat it then okay. I divided myself more into Rayne and Lorrie.

Moment of silence for Captain Kangaroo…why couldn’t it have been Barney instead?

Replies:

Krista<<<Seems losts of people like Brooklyn>>>Another fan of the ol Brookster?

Gside<<<Did he get any pants?>>>All I want is a decent pair of pants!<<<Hence why you could build an army form all his fanfiction mates.>>>Like a certain Spike story?

Mooncat<<<... But a Mary Sue isn't necessarily a bad thing.>>>Most of the ones at Ffnet are the kind that make you want to stick a spork in your eye. And I’m talking about the following types : Saffron Potter, Harry’s cousin from America with pink hair and purple eyes who ends up in Gryffendor, joins the Quidditch team, is good at all her classes and even earns points from Snape.

Teresa Swan: Elizabeth’s long lost older sister who was raised by pirates and the second she unsheaths her cutlass she has Jack Sparrow eating out of her hand.

Wolverine’s long lost daughter who has more powers than Monet, instantly loved by all the students at Xavier’s school, gets to call the Professor Chuck and ends up in Pyro’s pants.

Or the 15 year old girl wh gets to live in Elisaa , follows the detective to Wyvern, falls over the banister and is saved by Brooklyn (I have seen this one).

Josh>>>First of all Where the frell have you been?<<<The only one I'm still impressed with is Barracuda's, mostly because his character isn't the star of the universe. It's a recurring character, and an important one,>>>If I wasn’t afraid of getting my throat ripped out by Annika I’d want to date Todd Hawkings…he reminds me of Jeff Deggar.

Kjay>>>Sounds like what I did in Scriptwriting

Firestorm<<<0MG\/\/7FBbQ? 7H1$ !$ T|-|3 $uXX0R! T3h G0@7$E G0 B00M!
R!P D00d!
D347h ()F @ L3g3?\/|) >>>The hell?
Spacebabie - [spacebabie@hotmail.com]
Orlando
Saturday, January 24, 2004 12:15:03 PM
IP: 4.72.101.82

Firestorm: [Ok, now I have to go those stories. Thanks a lot! :P ]

Well, look on the bright side...Most of Norcumi's are short, Fleur has only just started writing again (as in, last week)due to school eating up her time and a massive case of writer's block, Mara only has a handful posted and hers are on hold indefinitely; Aaron only has a handful posted due to writing slow, the Gathering 2003 being evil, an new job, and the fact that we're only now wrapping up a MiST that was started over two years ago.
And I'm not posting mine anywhere other than my personal site until they can be read in order, and right now only a handful of stories mid-cycle are done. I'm hoping for a summer 2004 release of my first arc.

So it really shouldn't take you that long. ; )

And thank you for responding to the TGS poll.
Lynati
Saturday, January 24, 2004 11:36:04 AM
IP: 65.66.154.213

|_!|<3 0MG\/\/7FBbQ? 7H1$ !$ T|-|3 $uXX0R! T3h G0@7$E G0 B00M!
R!P D00d!
D347h ()F @ L3g3?\/|)

Need sleep...

Gside: <Oh, he's very flaming, and I enjoy him for it, but that's a different definition of flaming>
Ah, I see... Well, that can easily be fixed. Where's my flamethrower...
<We're going to let her know the location of the secret TGS stronghold?>
We will use a temporary safe house (IE: We will break into someone else's house)
OR we can have her brought somewhere
<Probably. Bring things into a computer, copy the resultant file, then bring each out>
And just forget about the little things like the conservation of matter/energy
<Thre've got to be more people out there that appreciate my sexy, sexy body. Are you sure your advertising well enough?>
Well, I put ad banners on all the bear love and furry sites, given how hairy you are
<But you won't be getting the repeat business that I have.>
Ah, it's more fun to swindle once!
<Batteries? You mean refill the diesel.>
Diesel vibrorangs? Na.
<Now, now, you know it's for the best>
*FS rocks back in fourth in the corner, holding himself*
"I will be a good boy mommy. I will be a good boy."

Wrong... but good sort of way
<Like Jack T. Chick>
???
<sustain extensive facial nerve damage or the proper sort>
OH! OH! Can I help?

Bud-Clare: <They're fun to laugh at. Isn't that good?>
True, they ARE fun to laugh at and make fun of the flamers

Question: <Most of the hard core comics fans are in my opinion nothing, but a bunch of whining pussies whose idea of fun is to bitch at everything new>
Granted, some of that is true, but when a comic style is REALLY changed, they have every right to complain.
*Reads kjay's post*
Yeah. What he said.

Mooncat: <Introducing, "Gargoyles Go!">
Will there be classic anime school girls?

lain and Lynati: <If you could ask three questions about the project and *any* of its spin-offs, what would they be?>
Do you see Greg's recent revelation (G2003) about Lexington affecting how you will choose to portray him?
How much longer do you plan on continuing each series (in terms of in-story years. Timedancer will obviously end when Brooklyn gets back, but what about Dark Ages? Will it end at the massacre or do you plan on following Demona (and/or some other random survivors) a little after that?)
Are there plans for a "Future Tense/Gargoyles 2198" series?

Krista: <They are also in book 5... barely. At the end it says "Tonks...T-shirt bearing the legend THE WEIRD SISTERS">
True. I forgot about that. I wonder who they will get to play them in 2 years... (Goblet will be in theaters in about December 2005)

Lynati: <Mary Sue test fic>
Ok, now I have to go those stories. Thanks a lot! :P

Mary Sue characters: I have this idea for a BLATANTLY Mary Sue fic for the Buffy universe. A slayer about 2000 years ago is turned into a vampire after being rescued from slavery by a vampire gypsy that was in love with her and was given a soul so she can continue to slay vampires. She doesn't need to drink blood but instead lives off of the magic of the earth. She has naturally purple hair that's full, thick and soft, and bright green eyes and her name is Krystil. So, anyway, she goes to Sunnydale and sees Buffy fighting some vampires. After Buffy dusts the vampires, Krysil approaches Buffy...
And immediately gets staked. :)
I went through someone's Buffy Mary Sue Litmus test and tried to score as high as I could.

I know that a lot of my characters could be classified as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu according to those tests, but quite frankly, I don't care. I mean, for the most part, any characters I create are secondary to the characters from the main story, and as such, they support the story. Sure sure, I will write back stories about my characters, but for the most part, I plan on focusing on the main (canon) characters.

But really, can a story (especially a Gargoyles story) be written that DOESN'T contain a Mary Sue character (Mooncat's quick little list for example)? No. If Mary Sues were totally avoided, the trio have just Angela, Delilah, and Demona to mate with.
(Just thought of something... if the three ladies and the trio get together, you would not have a genetically viable clan. Look at it! A female, her clone and her daughter!)

I agree with Mooncat. HORRIBLY done Mary Sues should be avoided, but they have pretty much gotten a bad rap.
Fire Storm
Saturday, January 24, 2004 09:41:29 AM
IP: 65.114.91.3

Krista [re: I'm a girl. I like them. So does my friend Lizard (Elizabeth, also a girl).]

Which pretty much was my point, a cartoon could be *aimed* at little boys, but other people besides little boys also watch cartoons and have comments and opinions about them.

Mary Sues - Any new character that is the focal character of the story, is the son/daughter of one cannon character, love interest of another cannon character, and is the creator's general age and gender is a Mary Sue. No need for a litmus test. If the character is named for the writer, one might as well stop right there *^_^* ... But a Mary Sue isn't necessarily a bad thing. I've read some great "self insertion" fics, but that is dependant on how good the writer is. A good writer can make a Mary Sue into a compelling character that other people will want to read about. The reason the term Mary Sue has such a bad rep though, is because so very many people have done them badly.

There are a lot of different Mary Sues too, which the litmus tests are really geared for.

There is the vanilla Mary Sue, which can be "ordinary but with..." name special power or relationship, and is basic wish/fantasy fullfillment. There is the bitter chocolate Mary Sue, which is angsty and the MS suffers this and that and melodramtically tragic, and the bad ass Mary Sue who is the "I'll show them!" Mary Sue who generally beats the crap out of everyone else.

I generally run away from blatant Mary Sue fics. I make exceptions for exceptional concepts and presentations though. Those can be real diamonds in the rough.

One of the best Mary Sue insertions I ever read was by a girl called Scribe. In her story she gets sucked from the real universe into the universe of 1950esque Superman comic books. It was a fun and unpretentious romp. Her character becomes a celebrity and gets her pick of Batman, Superman, Lex Luthors, etc, but in a very tongue in cheek way, and she ultimately ends up with another OC character, Clive the Hairdresser. The whole series was fun and had a lot of vocal fans.

Well, that's my ramble for tonight.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Saturday, January 24, 2004 03:16:18 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Greg> <<in the TGS Universe they were never a couple to begin with>>: Well, "breaking them up" is more of a stock phrase than "destroying their friendship".

Question> <<James Robinson's story on Solomon Grundy>>: Did he get any pants? ("Solomon Grundy want pants too")

Krista> <<Seems losts of people like Brooklyn>>: Hence why you could build an army form all his fanfiction mates.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Friday, January 23, 2004 11:48:59 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

RE: Captain Kangaroo
Yes, he will be missed. I loved Mr. Moose. The shower of ping-pong balls were a riot.

If the TGS staff is still fielding questions I got one. What's up with the death before disclosure attitude among the Pendragon, Main Cycle and post Timedancer Brooklyn?

In Pendragon it was Arthur being revealed for King Arthur. In the Main Cycle it is the Unseelie War and most famously was Brooklyn shaming his knowledge of the future. They way they are treated "dire consequences" would result if the general populace or the folks involved knew the truth, but so far it seems rather anticlimatic. Arthur barely got bugged with autograph hounds and Brooklyn gets a pat on the back and wave through. Not really dire. While there has been no public declaration of the Unseelie War, Mary seemed to take the knowledge in stride. So death before disclosure, any thoughts?
Taleweaver
Friday, January 23, 2004 10:09:30 PM
IP: 207.69.137.8

*grin spreads across face*
Seems losts of people like Brooklyn.
Krista
Friday, January 23, 2004 09:41:30 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Ok, Ok. I give up. I am going to conclude the poll now. I am, only 8 away from my goal, but here goes, so bare with me:

I've split the series into four parts: Season 1, Pre-World Tour, World Tour and Post-World Tour. All 65 episodes were available to vote for in each respective catagory, including "The Journey."

As well, you could vote for "Best Episode," "Favorite Episode," (I hope people would vote accordingly... the best ep should not always be your favorite) "Most Evolved Character," "Best ALL AROUND Character," "Best Moment," and "Least Liked Episode."

All listings will be top 3; (# of votes, % of total)

"Best Season 1 Episode"

1) Deadly Force (25/92; 27.2%)
2) Awakening I (10/92; 10.9%)
3) Temptation (10/92; 10.9%)

All Season one episodes received at least one vote except for Awakening IV.

"Best Pre-World Tour Episode"

1) The Mirror (44/92; 47.8%)
2) City of Stone IV (9/92; 9.8%)
3) Eye of the Beholder (8/92; 8.7%)

Five episodes (Lighthouse, CoS III, Legion, Outfoxed, Protection) received no votes.

"Best World Tour Episode"

1) Future Tense (37/92; 40.2%)
2) M.I.A. (6/92; 6.5%)
3) Pendragon (6/92; 6.5%)

Four episodes (Golem, The Hound of Ulster, Monsters and Heritage) did not receive one vote. The first three placed 4, 5 and 6 in the top six least liked episodes.

"Best Post-World Tour Episode"

1) Hunter's Moon III (45/92; 48.9%)
2) The Gathering II (13/92; 14%)
3) Posession (10/92; 11%)

Vendettas, the most dis-liked episode, did not receive one vote.

"Best Episode"

1) The Mirror (21/92; 22.8%)
2) Future Tense (11/92; 12%)
3) Hunter's Moon III (11/92; 12%)

The four episodes that placed first in each series divison (Season 1, Pre-, World Tour & Post-) were the top four favorite episodes.

"Favorite Episode"

1) The Mirror (23/92; 25%)
2) Future Tense (8/92; 8.7%)
3) M.I.A. (6/92; 6.5%)

Over half the episodes got at least one vote.

"Least Liked Episode"

1) Vendettas (10/92; 10.9%)
2) The Journey (7/92; 7.6%)
3) The New Olympians (7/92; 7.6%)

"Most Evolved Character"

1) Xanatos (39/92; 42.4%)
2) Brooklyn (26/92; 28.3%)
3) Demona (8/92; 8.7%)

Notables include Dingo (2 Votes) and Lexington, Owen, Reynard and The Magus (1 each).

"Best All Around Character"

1) Brooklyn (23/92; 25.0%)
2) Demona (18/92; 19.6)
3) Xanatos (15/92; 16.3)

Notables include Vinnie (Good 'ole Vinnie!) & Coldstone (2 votes each) and Matt Bluestone, Fang and All (someone voted for ALL characters) at one vote each.

"Best Moment"

1) The last 1/3 of Hunter's Moon III (The Kiss, the final battle Scene, Xanato's promise) (27/74; 36.5%)
2) Owen reveals himself as Puck (Gathering II) (5/74; 6.8%)
3) The first Stone sleep awakening in N.Y. (Awakening I) (5/74; 6.8%)
4) When Elisa is first turned into a Gargoyle (The Mirror) (5/74; 6.8%)
5) Demona's password revealed to be "ALONE" (CoS IV) (5/74; 6.8%)

Other notables votes include: Brooklyn prooving himself a good leader (Kingdom; 4 votes) Vinnie's cream pie to Golaith's face (Vendettas; 2 votes); Elisa getting shot (Deadly Force, 1 vote; Is that a good or a bad moment?).

_______________________

And so that's the whole poll.

You can see the full votes at:

www.geocities.com/oscarmovs/gargbest.html

Thanks to everyone who voted!!
Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, January 23, 2004 08:52:27 PM
IP: 142.59.145.149

Re: Captain Kangaroo

I remember His show was where I first saw "Picture Pages" with Bill Cosby.
Woah, I didn't know his show lasted into th 90's!

Here's a link.

Leo - [<-TV's 'Captain Kangaroo,' Bob Keeshan, dead]
Friday, January 23, 2004 05:35:11 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Lain>>>Oh no! I hope your puppy recovers.

Spike>>>Captain Kangaroo is dead?
Spacebabie
Friday, January 23, 2004 04:21:01 PM
IP: 4.72.74.94

*lays out a wreath of ping-pong balls for Captain Kangaroo*
Spike
Friday, January 23, 2004 03:33:40 PM
IP: 209.30.22.208

lain> Oh NO!!!

I hope he recovers and that it's not permanent. :(
Leo
Friday, January 23, 2004 02:23:39 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

just found my dog in the swimming pool.

hes shivering all over (the water is freezing) and he cant stand up on his back end.
i dunno how long he was in there, but i almost fell in myself trying to get to him.
hes in two towels, a layer of blanket, and a layer of cat (funnily enough, the cat that always seems to hate him the most is being cuddly) o.O

anyways, snuggles now, update later.
lain
Friday, January 23, 2004 02:11:40 PM
IP: 4.7.35.8

[When it gets to the situation where you’re inventing stories to explain some plot point or resolve some continuity dilemma, you’re really losing track of the heart of the story you’re trying to tell]

Actually, some of the best fic ideas I've seen, and indeed come up with, has been in such a context. The point is to find things that interest you, that call for a story to explain what happened, and let it develop like any other story- not force a fic where one hasn't taken root.
Lynati
Friday, January 23, 2004 04:34:08 AM
IP: 65.66.152.102

<When it gets to the situation where you’re inventing stories to explain some plot point or resolve some continuity dilemma, you’re really losing track of the heart of the story you’re trying to tell. Your brief is not to build continuity but to tell stories. >

Strange quite a few excellent comic book stories such as James Robinson's story on Solomon Grundy, DC's epic Crisis On Infinite Earth and a whole chunk of Kurt Busiek's run on Marvel's Avengers have been centered on resolving past continuity issues while still telling good stories.
Question
Friday, January 23, 2004 01:36:28 AM
IP: 144.92.164.204

GSIDE> <<So you're saying that you're breaking up Andrea and Demona?>>

Well, in the TGS Universe they were never a couple to begin with. Not giving anything away, but let's just say that certain things will be coming to light ;)
Greg Bishansky
Friday, January 23, 2004 01:09:50 AM
IP: 216.179.4.88

Vashkoda> <<Wow, that's a high upper limit>>: That's only because I'm sure I'm not allowed to reveal any information I know.
<<Don't disappoint me>>: Not being a writer myself, I'm not the one responsible for such disappointments.
<<Happy Year of the Monkey!>>: Yay, it's my year again.

Kathy> <<you think that including the collected works of Madame Destine into TGS would be incredulous?>>: It was the best adjective I could come up with.

Greg> <<Great as your universe is, some of our characters are going in slightly different directions>>: So you're saying that you're breaking up Andrea and Demona? Note: though I am in the know of some things, I pay absolutely no attention to the actual contents of the outlines, etc.

Imzadi!

Krista> <<Josh....?>>: Josh "Imzadi" Wurzel. Check his link, it tells you all about himself.

Greg> <<The Joker's laughing till people die gas is made from pot?>>: There you go, you have your excuse to buy that pot farm you had your eye on. Now all you have to do is bleach your face, die your hair, and sustain extensive facial nerve damage or the proper sort.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Friday, January 23, 2004 12:33:46 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

REVEL> "So it's true, Josh wasn't killed by a huge cloud of Pot smoke that left all of Berkley twitching with smiles on their faces."

The Joker's laughing till people die gas is made from pot???
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, January 22, 2004 10:46:55 PM
IP: 216.179.4.88

Vash>Oh I understand now!! thanks for the clear up. I thought TGS were starting to let fic writers insert their fic for the series as long as it follows the gargoyles saga plot line.
Mary sues>I never really understood what one was until I read Bud-clare's article. In my opinion it is almost impossible to put a new character in a favorite story line
(e.g. Gargoyles) without putting a little bit of themselves
in the character. The problem is when you put *too* much of yourself in the character to the point where the character is nothing more than a carbon copy of the author.
Then to pour salt in the wound, you make the ficverse *revolve* around the character. It's okay to have a fanfic
told form a inserted character's point of view now and then
if it explains something about the character's connection to the Gargoyles or about the character's past or why the character has an ablity(e.g. super strength) that can't be
explained in the normal plot line. Now if you create a story about something totally different and not related to
another story line, I think that it is easier to not make a mary-sue character because you have to make up serveral
characters and not just one. For example, when I was in college I took a film and literature class. For my final project I had to write a 25 page story in film format(I was basically writing a movie). Before I did that I had to
turn in a character outline about ALL of the characters in
my story(movie). So I had to do 10 outlines, and make each
character unique. When I was done, I got an A-. My film writing experinace gave me a respect for these film, t.v.,
and cartoon directors and producers who have to do much more work than a 25 page project. So to help out all of those fan fic writers who are making up new characters here
is half of the character outline I had to do. All you have to do is fill in the blanks. If you are interested in the
rest just email me
Character outline>
NAME- AGE- WEIGHT- BIRTHPLACE- HEIGHT- COLOR EYES- COLOR HAIR- MARITAL STATUS- RACE- COLOR SKIN- CLASS- APPEARANCE-
POSTURE- SCARS OR HANDICAPPS- EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND- OCCUPATION- PLACE IN THE COMMUNITY- BEST FRIEND AND RELATIONSHIP- RELATIONSHIP-boyfirend or girlfriend ENEMIES- PARENTS- HOMELIFE- STONGEST AND WEAKEST TRAITS-
SEES SELF AS- IS SEEN BY OTHERS AS- FRUSTRATIONS, CHIEF DISSAPOINTMENTS- TEMPERMENT- ATTITUDE TOWARD LIFE-

kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Thursday, January 22, 2004 10:32:38 PM
IP: 172.150.187.85

So it's true, Josh wasn't killed by a huge cloud of Pot smoke that left all of Berkley twitching with smiles on their faces.
Revel
Thursday, January 22, 2004 09:41:24 PM
IP: 129.120.247.79

Lynati> <<"...trying to make a character that didn't get any points on that test and having that character a part of a fantasy type of writing is impossible.>>
You're not supposed to try to get zero points. It also never claimed to be an absolute way of determining what is or is not a Sue, or that all Sues are necessarily horrible. It's meant to be a tool to help people to be more aware of what kind of OC they are creating.

Z> <<While I don't think that some of the criteria should be on the list>>
See above.

Josh> <<MS's are fine, I think. Just don't make the entire fic about them.>>
Now you're getting into the ugly territory of what exactly defines a MS, a topic which has probably started many wars. If the whole fic _isn't_ about the character, most likely the character isn't too big of a Sue. Not becuase you _can't_ write a MS without making the entire fic revolve around him or her, but just because the mindset that produces Sues tends to also place them in the center of the universe.
Bud-Clare
Thursday, January 22, 2004 09:07:27 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Josh....?
Rings a bell.
Krista
Thursday, January 22, 2004 08:56:14 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

mwahaha, my cunning plan worked.
hi Josh!

and I recall enjoying reading said fic rather much, and you should see my opinions of most of the currently-posting GFA authors... It was funny, and it was well-written. You did it without taking yourself seriously, which is another big factor in writing good fic.

Any more old poster lurking out there with things too say, hmm? c'mon now, the room won't bite...much...
Lynati
Thursday, January 22, 2004 08:30:53 PM
IP: 65.66.152.102

Bud-Clare - Thanks for the link. I must say I found parts of it quite hilarious, often because of the bluntness of some of the follow up questions
(i.e. <Does the character make more wisecracks than Brooklyn?[1]
Because Brooklyn is your favorite character?[1]>
or
<Does the character manage to develop a friendship with an otherwise villainous character, and through this friendship, reform the other character?[2]
Is the villain in question Demona?[1]>)

While I don't think that some of the criteria should be on the list, I would certainly agree that some of the stuff (like the above) would make it awfully hard to develop an interesting/non-cheesy character.

Peace
Z
Thursday, January 22, 2004 07:33:02 PM
IP: 67.65.155.228

Lynati's post drew me out, however briefly. Thanks for the kind words, Lynati.

Lynati was wrong about one thing, though: my fic did not rock. It painfully bad, which I've only become aware of recently. I had some really great plot ideas to horribly !@#!@$-up my MS character, but they never went to disk. Don't ask if you can have a copy, there's a reason its called "The Phantom Fic". And the people who have read it cannot distribute it without incurring the wrath of Josh (like the Wrath of Bob, only with less syphillis).

Mary Sue fics can be well written, and they can even be enjoyable if you don't care about some person's little ego trip. But they seem to lose a lot of creativity when the universe focuses on the one MS character. The only one I'm still impressed with is Barracuda's, mostly because his character isn't the star of the universe. It's a recurring character, and an important one, but he's still very fixated on Goliath/Elisa relationship and Xanatos' scheming. Characters take turns in the spotlight, which is very cool. MS's are fine, I think. Just don't make the entire fic about them.
Josh - [ATkicktothenutsDOTcom]
Berkeley, CA, US of A
Thursday, January 22, 2004 05:53:29 PM
IP: 66.125.228.165

It’s great to see TGS getting a bit of attention in this room. :) Fresh perspectives are always useful too... I think there’s a temptation on the staff (and with some readers) to overcomplicate things, or to get sidetracked on trivia. When it gets to the situation where you’re inventing stories to explain some plot point or resolve some continuity dilemma, you’re really losing track of the heart of the story you’re trying to tell. Your brief is not to build continuity but to tell stories. The stories should be about something... an idea or an emotion. Ideally both. This may sound obvious, but I think a number of eps (including a good few I outlined) could do with someone asking “what is this story about and how can I most clearly convey it?”

Vash: Regarding writing against breakdowns... I used to think breakdowns would be more interesting, but I know on ‘Pendragon’ that was when the story really started to take shape for us, and we could start editing things to smooth out the character arcs and see what aspects of the plot needed to be pushed further. I used to think of it as a bit like the distinction between writing a film (breakdowns) and directing a film (writing). Even though the writer has the plot straight, as the director you have control of its interpretation, and that can be much more powerful and fun. And while I don’t want to speak for the staff, the number of episodes ‘Pendragon’ had continued to be a question mark until after the season had started releasing so the staff may well not know yet. There again, Lain is probably more organised.
Ed
Cambridge, England
Thursday, January 22, 2004 04:52:33 PM
IP: 131.111.8.102

Since Patrick et all have covered clearing up the fact that we need writers and help with breakdowns for TGS, I'll comment on Mary Sue's.

The Mary Sue litmus test is of questionable value. Not all characters that fit the profile are Mary Sues; one can qualify as such and still be well-rounded. Just severely f- err, Twerked up. over 35 points and the character is supposedly a Mary Sue...but that is only 20% of the possible points.

Mary Sue's are generally characters that stick out and get special treatment for their personality and flaws; they tend to manage to complete great feats that no one else, not even the gargoyles, can. They are often immediately loved by the whole canon cast, and become mates with a character for whom the auhthor is infatuated. (Very few Mary-Sue writers match up their Mary Sue with a character that is not their favorite.)

A Mary Sue is a idealized version of the author, who they would be if they could. They are given traits the author wishes they had in real life, and making friends and performing actions they wish to have. They are loved despite their faults, as the author wishes he or she could be accepted by society in the same manner for the same or similar faults.

Most Mary Sue fics are awful, becasue they are transparent for their purpose of allowing the author to become a deity-like figure in the story, and tend to have exceedingly trite plots as well.

...except for Josh's self-insertion fic. that kicked ass. ; )

Anyway, while Mary Sue's are a pain, good characters are often based on some aspect of a writer's personality; they share something in common with you so that your writing of them feels real. It is the extent (and the manner) to which this is done that determines whether or not the characterization comes across as well-done.

I guess it is better summed up by Sneaking Yoda when she said:

"...trying to make a character that didn't get any points on that test and having that character a part of a fantasy type of writing is impossible. To say the least, boring. More to the point, even if you weren't writing about gargoyles or fae, most writers write about what they are familar. For me not to get any points on that test I would have to write about an overweight, ugly, retarded, one legged male chinese monk. Who was apart of a religion and society that everyone knows about, and hates, and more to the point was excommunicated from his church for singing christmas carols. But wasn't allowed to go before they cut his tounge out rendering him Mute. (And everyone outside that order still hates him regardless.) Who is introduced in the last chapter of the third book and is just a few pages from his own perminant death. ( because he's 104 ). I would also have to hate this character of my own creation, and couldn't under any circumstance have him meet or know anyone or thing from another story or history.

Wait. Now that you mention it, that could be interesting.

THE POINT IS:
Conforming to a different and opposite extreme doesn't make you unlike or better than anyone else. It just makes you a different extreme."

and while we are on the subject, about two months ago, Mara, Aaron, and I ran three of our most picked-on characters through the test a la Fleur Rhine...

http://lynativerse.artchicks.org/Fic/MarySueFun.htm

and I still refuse to beleive Nemesis is a Mary Sue, especially not after Brooklyn scored higher on the Litmus Test than her when I ran him through. Although I will admit that she is a vessel for my anger on some issues...but her "solutions" for them are not ones that I would neccessarily agree with.
Lynati
Thursday, January 22, 2004 01:27:12 PM
IP: 65.64.100.12

Patrick & Vash are right. We're not looking for stories to wedge into our continuity. We're checking to see if anyone would be interested in writing a story from one of our outlines.

Vash> We do encourage creative freedom also. Any writer is free to expand on anything in the story. As long as it doesn't violate planned continuity thatis. But that's what edits are for.

KATHY> "Awww, you think that including the collected works of Madame Destine into TGS would be incredulous? I can't imagine why. Oh wait. Now I remember. That pesky S&P policy. No direct camera depictions of well, you know."

Well, that's not just why. Great as your universe is, some of our characters are going in slightly different directions ;)
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:14:12 PM
IP: 216.179.3.177

I really enjoyed working on the breakdown group at TGS. For starters it's fun to see 75 'what if' type posts be melded into a coherent story line.

But more importantly I learned how to outline coherently. When you write outlines for TGS you may or may not be the person who actually writes the story. You need to convey your ideas clearly and logically so that the next person who picks up the project can work through it with a minimum of hassle.

Great training.

Gside > Awww, you think that including the collected works of Madame Destine into TGS would be incredulous? I can't imagine why. Oh wait. Now I remember. That pesky S&P policy. No direct camera depictions of well, you know.

I'm procrastinating. 25 different things to do today none of which have anything to do with one another. Bleech.

kathy
Thursday, January 22, 2004 08:57:20 AM
IP: 66.82.193.105

Someone on TGS staff can correct me if I'm wrong... but I don't think they're looking for stories that can be wedged into the TGS continuity. They're just looking for a writing sample from anyone who's applying to guest-write.

Just seemed from a few of the comments like there was some confusion on this.

:: heads off to the cubes ::
Patrick
Thursday, January 22, 2004 07:06:24 AM
IP: 65.43.151.224

Gside> "More than 1, and less than 50"--Wow, that's a high upper limit. Well then, considering the quality of the series and its staff, I shall now expect nothing less than 49 episodes. *narrows eyes* Don't disappoint me.

Kjay> "It's the only one of 3 I have that I can fit in the gargoyles saga universe without changing the plot too much." Why would you want to make it fit in the TGS Universe? They're only asking for samples of "Gargoyles" stories to see if you can write them; they're not asking for submissions to include in the official series (in case that's what you were thinking). From what I gather, the staff have already got their future stories planned out; they just need people to follow their outlines and do the work of writing them.

Personally, I would find the breakdowns aspect more appealing than the grunt work of writing. Not that the writing itself can't be fun (especially witty dialog, cliff hangers, angst, etc), but the creative process of discovering the story as you write it, slowly unraveling the repercussions of the original plot idea that had driven you to write that fic in the first place, is what I find most enjoyable. To simply be handed an outline where everything has already been laid out by other people would take most of the fun out of writing it (like being handed a box of cereal with the prize already taken out). Granted, I don't know how much freedom the staff would give their writers, and the outlines might be very vague and leave lots of room for creativity. But another downside to the 'guest writer' aspect is that you would be limited to the events of that one fic. Myself, I prefer being long-sighted; I like to leave loose ends hanging that can be tied into future stories. To instead be forced to wrap up the story and say your piece in *one fic* would be very frustrating, at least to me.

I don't know what possessed me to leave this post, especially at 4 AM. Must be the Chinese food. Speaking of which--Happy Year of the Monkey!
Vash
Thursday, January 22, 2004 04:03:17 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

TGS>If I decided to send a fanfic to them it would be the
fanfic I'm now working on "Elisa, meet Cagney". It's the
only one of 3 I have that I can fit in the gargoyles saga
universe without changing the plot too much.
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Thursday, January 22, 2004 01:57:15 AM
IP: 172.143.39.217

Budclare>thanks for the mary sue link! I tried it on a charcter in my fanfic universe. I scored a 12.
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Thursday, January 22, 2004 01:49:07 AM
IP: 172.143.39.217

Krista> <<Does the charater being kind of... well, normal as in good at some things, bad at others make it a good Mary Sue? Or bad?>>
If a character is realistic and well-rounded (such as being good at some things but bad at others), then it isn't a Mary Sue, but there are other factors besides talents. Personality is important, and the way the canon characters react to the character, and the character's past and future. Basically, you just need to make sure that the character could believably be a real person.

The litmus test is a good place to start. Just answer the questions honestly and it should give you a pretty accurate score. If you want to talk about it more, you can email me if you want.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Thursday, January 22, 2004 01:03:13 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Bud-Clare: what's your email? I thought I might send it to you, or what I have done, anyway. Keep in mind: this is my first real story that I've taken this far. I know I need to change it a bit, but I'm not to that point yet.
Krista
Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:28:17 AM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Bud-Clare: Does the charater being kind of... well, normal as in good at some things, bad at others make it a good Mary Sue? Or bad?
Krista
Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:20:18 AM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Krista> Sorry, try this link first. The other one doesn't have quite as much explanation of the concept of Mary Sues as I thought.
Bud-Clare
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:57:51 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Krista> You might want to try running your character through the Mary Sue litmus test. (I've linked to it for you.) It'll help you figure out whether or not your character is a Mary Sue (as well as explaining what a Mary Sue is). If it turns out that she _is_ a Mary Sue, there's no shame in that, especially given your age. It's a pretty normal phase to go through. It's just that if you really want to become a good writer, Mary Sues are something that you want to watch out for.
Bud-Clare
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:51:06 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Typo: She's Macbeth's DAUGHTER.

Okay, now I'm shutting up.
Krista
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:33:47 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

See, I'm writing my own kind of like adventures that they have, they, as in the gargoyles: Goliath, Angela, Brooklyn, Lexington, Broadway, Hudson, Bronx, and a new character: Marleena. I think it's going to be called The Lost Chronicals. When I'm done I'll send it to TGS. Does it sound like the kind of thing that you guys would be interested in? Here's a bit more: Marleena's Macbeth's son, Marleena and Brooklyn are in love, and it has a sad ending. Right now I'm on the episode that Marleena finds out her real history. Macbeth wasn't only her God-father, but her real father. He doesn't even know it until they do a DNA test! And Demona remembers Marleena! Apparently, Marleena had a nickname when she was little, and Demona suddenly realized it was her! Is it any good? At least does it sound like it? I haven't completely worked it out yet, but I'm getting there. I only have about twenty-five minutes to work on it during lunch-hour at school. I don't know why they call it "lunch-hour" when we only have twenty-five minutes. Okay, hopefully I am shuting up for the day. l8r
Krista
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:31:54 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Greg> <<No, neither that story or any of her others are canon>>: Well, it was either ask about her or Mme. Destine, and Spike seemed a bit more credulous.

Krista> <<Does age have anything to do with qualifications for guest writing?>>: Nope (unless they team Patrick and Kathy), it's just that everyone else who's asked used to be on staff, so we already know how good they are (assuming their skills haven't atrophied).

Vashkoda> <<How many episodes are planned for "Bad Guys" season 1...Same question for "Gargoyles" season 4>>: More than 1, and less than 50.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 09:46:47 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Poll> 1) How many episodes are planned for "Bad Guys" season 1, and how close are you to being ready to release? 2) Same question for "Gargoyles" season 4. 3) Are any new spinoffs being considered?
Vashkoda
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 06:21:06 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Like I said: Does age have anything to do with qualifications for guest writing?
Krista
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 05:53:47 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Kathy, Spike, Patrick - Thank you. : )

As for other people interested in writing... we're requesting a sample of your work, using the characters from Gargoyles, or the name and the link to a fic of yours already posted online that you would like us to look at.

please email us at tgs_info@yahoo.com and we will get back to you.
Lynati
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 05:17:17 PM
IP: 67.64.42.50

Am I qualified to be a guest writer?
(:<
Krista
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 05:07:39 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

Lain > You can put me on the list of potential guest-writers, too, if you'd like. My e-mail is puck(AT)artchicks.org - replacing (AT) with the ussual symbol.

Mooncat > "Gargoyles Go!" - Like most of what's on Saturday mornings these days, I would so NOT watch that.
Patrick
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 12:33:54 PM
IP: 12.109.97.109

kathy/spike>> RE: TGS writing... i dont suppose i could get your email addresses for the aforementioned purpose, could i? if you dont want to post them in here, could you send an email to tgs_info@yahoo.com then i can get it on record? that would be superfantastic :)
lain
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:40:18 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

*narrows eyes at Greg X* That Garlon story always comes to mind, doesn't it? Sneaky little bugger.....

Lynati>> I wouldn't mind writing the odd TGS story, provided it fits into my schedule. I write a lot slower these days due to my carpal tunnel but I do manage to wedge of bit of writing into my day.
Spike
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 09:13:07 AM
IP: 209.30.69.208

Lynati > Yes, I suppose it is. As long as no desk shackles are involved. I still have scars. ;)

It doesn't have to be just ex-staff. There are many fine writers out there. Pick ones whose work the staff enjoys and invite them to write *one* story. You should be upfront about the possibility of editing and rewriting to fit continuity. And deadlines. Don't forget about those.

If they accept then make it easy for them. Send a clear outline, bios and background, and a staff contact to answer questions in a timely manner.

If it's a reasonably painless experience you might luck out and they'll agree to help again.

kathy
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 08:25:25 AM
IP: 66.82.193.105

Kathy : Is that an offer? o.O And we had been kinda considering it...at least for a later thing TGS has been working on. At present, I think we aren't sure who of the old staff would be willing to do a fic on request; so many have their own projects now.
But if you know of anyone willing...?
Lynati
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 02:43:24 AM
IP: 67.64.41.4

I'll field this one...

Gside> <<Are you going to incorporate Spike's not quite TGS stories (Asrial Interactive, etc.)?>>

No, neither that story or any of her others are canon... except maybe the Garlon/Sekhmet one ;)

*Quickly runs from the room*
Greg Bishansky
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 01:16:00 AM
IP: 216.179.3.177

Isn't that story pretty much non canon since Lexington is still alive in the future?
Question
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 01:13:41 AM
IP: 144.92.164.204

Poll> <<If you could ask three questions about the project and *any* of its spin-offs, what would they be?>>: Are you going to incorporate Spike's not quite TGS stories (Asrial Interactive, etc.)? Just what kind of background website automation do you want? And I can't really think of any serious questions I want to ask.

Vinnie> <>: Don't worry, it will.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Wednesday, January 21, 2004 12:02:12 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Fire Storm: They are also in book 5... barely. At the end it says "Tonks...T-shirt bearing the legend THE WEIRD SISTERS"

Mooncat: I'm a girl. I like them. So does my friend Lizard (Elizabeth, also a girl).

Krista
Tuesday, January 20, 2004 09:48:08 PM
IP: 68.185.206.251

suggestions>What are the qualacations for being a guest
writer?
btw I'm halfway finished with my fanfic about Elisa's cat,
Cagney. Only five more pages to go!
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Tuesday, January 20, 2004 07:36:09 PM
IP: 172.167.107.118

VINNIE - Since there aren't going to be any more episodes of "Pendragon", probably never (unless Darien makes a guest star appearance in one of the other cycles - and there are no plans for that, so far as I know).

KATHY - Well, I'm serving as a guest-writer for one episode in Season Four of "TGS: Gargoyles" - a Gargoyles/Pendragon crossover set between "Doomed" and "Black and White" where Arthur, Griff, Merlin, and Mary visit New York during their quest for the Holy Grail and team up with Goliath, his clan, and Elisa on an adventure - but I can't say anything more about that (the TGS staff would hunt me down if I were to give anything else away).
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, January 20, 2004 07:00:11 PM
IP: 63.186.0.105

Chibi-Goliath eek!

TGS Staff - Suggestion. Once upon a time writers were invited to 'guest write' episodes. Why not resume that program again? It might take some of the pressure off the regular staff.
kathy
Tuesday, January 20, 2004 04:15:12 PM
IP: 66.82.193.105

TGS Comment: I was just curious when is Darien Montrose going to be developed into something more then the usual evil villian cliche.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Tuesday, January 20, 2004 03:03:23 PM
IP: 216.234.99.242

I'd like to thank again everyone who voted in the Gargoyles vote.

I still need 15 more votes, and time is running out to vote as the polls will be closing soon.

Please vote if you haven't yet!!

www.geocities.com/oscarmovs/gargbest.html

Thanks!!
Battle Beast
CanadaTuesday, January 20, 2004 09:20:18 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

Howdy all,

Not much to say this week. I thought I'd have a thought provoking question concerning Pendragon or Timedancer, but nothing has come forth. I did have this stray thought for the main cycle, but it seem more like a story pitch than question to prod young minds. Considering the rough shape most of the newly discovered clans are in what do you think Goliath's reaction would be if they asked for weapons (guns & laser rifles) as part of the help he offers?

I know i have a couple of questions about the series, but I'm too wiped to think right now. Talk amongst yourselves.
Taleweaver
Tuesday, January 20, 2004 08:16:04 AM
IP: 207.69.137.8

silvadel:<Mooncat -- that Gargoyles go thing actually made me shiver... Eeeeeewwww... That would be HORRIBLE -- a worse desecration of the original series than the third season if such were to come about...> SSSSSHHHHH! I quite agree, which is why I suggest no one ever mention (or think) that idea again lest it take on a life of it's own.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Tuesday, January 20, 2004 04:20:34 AM
IP: 216.234.99.211

** ATTENTION COMMENT ROOM PATRONS **

The Gargoyles Saga – A poll:

If you could ask three questions about the project and *any* of its spin-offs, what would they be? You can ask not only about the project’s past, but its present and future, as well.

We’d really appreciate serious feedback on this, guys. So please, ask away!

lain and Lynati - [tgs_info@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, January 20, 2004 12:10:24 AM
IP: 65.69.65.236

Bud Clare> <<They're fun to laugh at. Isn't that good?>>: Depends on how bad the fallout is. If there's just bad feelings and everyone stays around, then it borders on acceptable.
<<Since we have somewhat less than a million monkeys, we sure as hell aren't cranking out shakespeare here>>: Technically, the first time around it only took one monkey.

Mecord> <<Then we all learn how to count to ten>>: With probably aroun 50/50 chance of getting it right. Depending on how fast we go.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, January 19, 2004 11:34:50 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Mooncat -- that Gargoyles go thing actually made me shiver... Eeeeeewwww... That would be HORRIBLE -- a worse desecration of the original series than the third season if such were to come about...
silvadel
Monday, January 19, 2004 11:05:45 PM
IP: 24.225.133.251

Comic, Toons, and Fans - Hard core fans and the word "most" can't really be used in opinions about specific characters because there are so many factions. Hal Jordan, there are several HC comic fans who don't know his story line (thought they are generally familiar with the term Green Lantern) and others who are Kyle Rainer fans (the guy after Hal) and so on. A *lot* of fans of DC superheroes were upset with Hal, a classic DC hero, going nuts, killing a city then dying as the end of his Green Lantern run.

But I'd imagine a lot of Gargoyles fans would be perturbed if Goliath went nuts, destroyed a city, then died, and that was the end of his story until someone needed to use his ghost for a new story line.

And I'd hazard that there would be fans of Gargoyles who would be aghast if cartoon were revamped in the style Teen Titans is being done, aged back to preteens, running around with no back story and each character becoming a stock stereo type.

Introducing, "Gargoyles Go!" -- with Goliath (big jock type) Brooklyn (bad boy type) Broadway (the cowardly food scarfer) Lex (the brainy geek) and a garg pup named Scooby... um Bronx. They'd have a human friend, a girl named Elisa who is a brainless giggly mall bunny type, and an enemy, Demona the bitchy mall bunny. Evil Xanatos would throw foes at the team for no descernable reason other than it will make a nifty fight scene. The whole series will have less content than the average Goliath Chronicles episode, but will have a peppy 60s go go music sound track a la a chic japan pop band and cute chibi anime style renditions of cast.

I'm a long time comic book fan. I guess I could be called hard core *^_^* - having seriously collected since I was 7 and I'm now mid 30s. I collected DC comics, including Justice League on and off for more than twenty years, and I for one *love* the Justice League cartoon. I loved the Batman cartoon and the Superman cartoon and the X-men (marvel but still good) cartoons... even spin offs like Static Shock, Zeta, Batman Beyond... all good in my opinion. But Teen Titans... eek...

Parts of it I find bearable. Others are wince much moments. I've mainly come to terms with it by totally divorcing it from it's source material. I'll admit that the toon Raven is pretty cool, even for a stereotype, but toon Starfire still makes my skin crawl. If someone created a toon version of Demona or Elisa that was that vapid, you'd have an inkling of what a difference the toon version of Starfire is from her comic counterpart.

And I think it was Krista who mentioned the cartoons are aimed for kids. And sadly, most of them are marketed for boyes ages 7 to 12. Doesn't mean everyone who watches them are 12 and under boys though. Or that even 7-12 year olds couldn't appreciate cartoons with a little bit of intelligence in them and things like plot and back story.

I think one of the reasons people who know the Teen Titans from the comic books, which had very adult plot lines, and characters, are disappointed because the cartoon uses virtually nothing except "tiny toon" versions of the characters images.

Well, gotta jet and record the one Justice League episode I keep missing. The one with the Demon Etrigan and Morgan le Fay. woot!!!

mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Monday, January 19, 2004 09:50:51 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Question>That's not true about comic book fans. It's just
that when a popular comic book is transformed into a cartoon, fans expect it to be a certain way. It don't have
to be *exactly* like the comic book, but the basics have to
be there. When a good comic book is reduced to a plotless
"good guy beats up bad guy" flik, then comic book fans have
a reason to complain.
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Monday, January 19, 2004 07:17:04 PM
IP: 172.135.252.144

Fire Storm<That's about what many hard-core DC fans think of the new series. >

Most of the hard core comics fans are in my opinion nothing, but a bunch of whining pussies whose idea of fun is to bitch at everything new. So far after ten years after what happened to Hal Jordan they're still making a row about it and lets not forgot those who are whining about the Justice League Cartoon because Green Lantern just happens to be black and that they made Wally West the Flash instead of Barry Allen.
Question
Monday, January 19, 2004 12:50:46 PM
IP: 144.92.164.204

lucky # 13

Ray>> It's called the room wipe. it generally happens once a week. Then we all learn how to count to ten. >;D
so I guess technically everything after that "doesn't count," but at least we know we can count higher than ten.

I might make a real post later, If I acctually have time today.
Mecord
Monday, January 19, 2004 11:42:42 AM
IP: 129.123.104.8

What the heck is going on?

Twelve, if that counts.
Ray
Monday, January 19, 2004 10:53:48 AM
IP: 62.203.184.48

Elevensies!!
Spike
Monday, January 19, 2004 10:41:39 AM
IP: 209.30.43.21

10th!
Leo
Monday, January 19, 2004 07:43:23 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Number nine!
Patrick
Monday, January 19, 2004 07:01:45 AM
IP: 65.43.151.224

Eight!
Dezi
Monday, January 19, 2004 06:58:31 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

7, woohoo!
lain
Monday, January 19, 2004 06:08:14 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

Fire Storm> <<Needless to say, flame wars are generally offensive, most people ignore them, and in the end, nothing good comes out of it.>>
They're fun to laugh at. Isn't that good?
_____________________
Gside> <<Does the nose hair thing count?>>
Yes, thank you.

<<That, or fall back on complete and utter nonsense.>>
Since we have somewhat less than a million monkeys, we sure as hell aren't cranking out shakespeare here.
Bud-Clare
Monday, January 19, 2004 04:19:55 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Six is for me!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Monday, January 19, 2004 03:25:23 AM
IP: 216.234.99.240

I'll take the FIFTH (of Coke) and drink it...

Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr.
Tampa, FL, USA
Monday, January 19, 2004 03:17:42 AM
IP: 24.164.32.253

Go Fourth into the comment room...
silvadel
Monday, January 19, 2004 02:03:11 AM
IP: 24.225.133.251

3RD!
Fire Storm and Lady Mystic
Monday, January 19, 2004 01:33:26 AM
IP: 65.114.91.3

#1, hopefully, top 10
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, January 19, 2004 01:27:12 AM
IP: 204.94.193.27

First?
Bud-Clare
Monday, January 19, 2004 01:26:57 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63