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lain: "where do you live?"
In British Columbia, near the Vancouver area.

Mooncat: "Chibi alert. Goliath and Demona."
Aw, that's so addorable! ^-^
"*evil kitty laugh* Bwah ha ha haaaaaaaaaah!!!"
I'm thinking of that part in Emperor's New Groove where what's-her-name gets turned into a kitten and does an evil laugh that sounds totally obserd.

silvadel: "I wouldnt have had to do it in two messages if there were a way of changing color in mid-message."
I've never see a board/forum that supported multi-coloured text.
Except the for the MSN Community forums. -_-;
You could do multi-coloured text if this room supported HTML though.
Aria (The Insane) Nightshadow
Monday, February 16, 2004 05:35:04 AM
IP: 216.113.222.87

Vinnie<Mooncat:<Chibi alert. Goliath and Demona.>AAARRRGGGHHH!!!! I'm melting I'm melting! The pictures killing me. >

Thats nothing. Ever tried reading Frodo/Faramir mpreg slash? Now thats just disgusting. Though I wonder if there is any gargoyles mpreg slash.
Question
Monday, February 16, 2004 03:05:45 AM
IP: 144.92.164.199

Mooncat:<Chibi alert. Goliath and Demona.>AAARRRGGGHHH!!!! I'm melting I'm melting! The pictures killing me.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Monday, February 16, 2004 02:10:53 AM
IP: 66.103.238.102

Mooncat: I don't think it's meant as a parody of white supremacist xenophobic attitudes, but a dig at positive discrimination. It seems like there's no difference in the criteria except that it's "white only" and not "ethnic minorities" only. The moral point is one that's highly anti-discrimination, if anything.
Ed
Monday, February 16, 2004 02:07:12 AM
IP: 131.111.8.103

Leo "AAAAAAAAAAA!!!! It's a Power Puff Goliath!!! " --

*evil kitty laugh* Bwah ha ha haaaaaaaaaah!!!

Caboose "Why and how is that cute?!? <Shudders and tries to keep from gouging his own eyes out>"

*even more evil kitty laugh* Bwah ha ha haaaaaaaaaah!!!

Well, I found it cute before posting, but your pain and suffering somehow makes it even sweeter *^_^* yahhhh!!!! *happy kitty*

All Whites Award -- hmmm... An interesting thing is even a little black blood makes you black in the eyes of racially sensitive people, but you are only considered "white" if there is a complete lack of any other bloodline. To be considered part of an ethnic group you could have only one parent, or a grand parent or even some evidence of ancestry of that group, but even though I have a lot of "white" blood on my mother's side, I'm not considered "white".

I when I was 12 I had a guy chase after me when I left a public bus to ask if I was Iranian. I have no clue why, he didn't look Iranian so I'm fairly certain it wasn't for a nice reason. All my life I've had people ask me "what are you" because I'm a mix of ethnic lines I confuse a lot of people and it just skeeved some not to be able to pin me neatly into a little box. Growing up I've had people compliment me on how well I speak English, which I guess I should feel grateful about because it's the only language I do speak. :P

Someone, I think Green Baron? Asked if I was from the South. Well, I'm in Kansas, and it's as about as central as it gets in the continental (sp?) US. When I was 8 or 9 I had the lovely experience of having two older white boys throw rocks and dirt clods at me and my even younger brother as we walked home from school while they were shouting racial insults. Didn't know who they were, never saw them before or had any contact with them previously. It was just random violence and very racially oriented. We were walking home with two very white children, neighbors of ours, and they were not targeted. They were very frightened for myself and my brother though.

Now the boys who threw the rocks were only a few years older, perhaps 10 or 11-ish. One wonders where they learned to act with such hatred and violence, and only towards non-white targets. They'd be grown men today, in their 30s. Sometimes I wonder about them, and what they might be doing today and my blood chills.

"White Only" Awards... Meant as a parody by some, but what robs if of comedy for so many is the fact that "White Only" mindset isn't a joke to a lot of people who've been the receiving end of racism, or to the people who really believe that things should be "White Only".

Moving on...

Did anyone score special goodies for Valentine's Day?

Meows
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat - [Clicky Clicky!!! Valentine!!!]
Monday, February 16, 2004 01:42:05 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Bud Clare> <<Pretty sure it's Soul Music>>: I'm pretty sure the towels are in there, as well as the plumbing.
<<Do you really think I'm kind enough for that?>>: You don't have to be kind, just incredibly aroused by my undeniable sexiness.

Leo> <<Student Group Offers Whites-Only Award>>: I like how the guy in charge of the group recieved a minority scholorship himself. And there should have been some mention of Michael Jackson with that bleaching thing.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, February 15, 2004 11:41:24 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Z> Yeah, I know why they decided that. I did join TGS a few months after it formed. Still on the staff. Just saying if there was one thing I'd change...

But yeah, for the most part I do like the Angela-Gwenyvere story-line.
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, February 15, 2004 10:56:19 PM
IP: 216.179.1.18

Leo: I actually think that idea's kind of amusing. I mean, if universities and other organizations can get away with making scholarships available soley to minorities or women, why can't a student group make fun of the policy by offering something only whites can get?
Caboose - [caboose@wctc.net]
WI, USA
Sunday, February 15, 2004 07:58:06 PM
IP: 198.150.93.3

The following is pure opinion and speculation and in no way represents the stance of the TGS staff on the matter:

Greg - <Biological parentage means nothing... and in my opinion, having the staff change that in the future was a mistake.>

I would imagine that most people agree with you, but, like Hardwing said, it certainly created the possibility for a great storyline between Angela and Gwen, which thus filtered down into their relationships and interactions with other gargoyles, which provided still more interesting happenings. My guess would be that the TGS staff felt that these positive consequences and potential plotlines were worth that change to the gargoyle culture and habit.

Again, this is just speculation. As for my opinion on whether the change to their culture was worth the good storylines...well...I'm torn on the matter. I'd have to give it more thought.

Peace
Z
Sunday, February 15, 2004 07:06:59 PM
IP: 67.67.120.140

I hate bringing this topic back up, but I found this article amusing.

"Student Group Offers Whites-Only Award"

Click my name.

Leo - [<-Student Group Offers Whites-Only Award]
Sunday, February 15, 2004 07:00:52 PM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Greg Bishansky>>
I think so, too. I mean what differs the gargoyles of the future from humans?

Greg wrote that even Angela and Broadway would handle it more the gargoyle way than anything else with her children.

Naturally this wouldn't allow the good storyline between Angela and Gwen.
Hardwing - [hardwing]
The Ruhr, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
Sunday, February 15, 2004 05:09:34 PM
IP: 80.143.204.41

Silvadel> ::hugs:: I know how you feel. I once had capital gains tax on a mutual fund that had to be re-invested every year, and I liquidated only to be sniped at by my motehr who tried to find ways to make me spend the money to get back at me.

I responded to the taxes by performing a Keynes-death in the CR :)

BTW, have you ever read Atlas Shrugged? I just finished Part II of it and I actually find it an enjoyable read. I think you'd like it.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Sunday, February 15, 2004 09:13:29 AM
IP: 220.73.165.139

And yes I wouldnt have had to do it in two messages if there were a way of changing color in mid-message... The stock gain on the comcast disney thing (not that I would want comcast stock -- good time to sell) was a happy thing and deserved the light blue... The government taking my money was an angry unhappy thing and needed the red... Of course this will go in a more neutral yellow...

It being 3:30 my mind is in that state anyway -- I should be sleepizzzzzzzzzz
silvadel
Sunday, February 15, 2004 03:33:11 AM
IP: 24.225.133.251

The only annoying thing is that the government will take $700 of that $2500... What did they do to deserve that???

Not like they would give me $700 if it went down instead...
silvadel
Sunday, February 15, 2004 03:28:45 AM
IP: 24.225.133.251

And to think -- I bought about $3,000 worth of Disney stock back in August... With all of the takeover talk I decided to sell it now for $5,500.... Stocks seem too high right now anyway and the takeover is now already priced in...
silvadel
Sunday, February 15, 2004 03:26:44 AM
IP: 24.225.133.251

Mooncat -> Why and how is that cute?!? <Shudders and tries to keep from gouging his own eyes out>
Caboose - [caboose@wctc.net]
WI, USA
Sunday, February 15, 2004 02:39:12 AM
IP: 198.150.93.3

Mooncat:<<Chibi alert. Goliath and Demona.>>
AAAAAAAAAAA!!!! It's a Power Puff Goliath!!!

Dezi/Bud-Clare: Re Dr. Mendoza.
I got this from the StarTrek.com "character Biography" page. He was played by Castulo Guerra. (Click my name for the short character bio)

Leo - [<-click]
Sunday, February 15, 2004 01:55:28 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

In honor of Valentines Day, a little "deviation" of mine. Chibi alert. Goliath and Demona. URL below, also can click my name.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/5279107/

Pure Fluff. I was tired today :P

mc

Mooncat
Sunday, February 15, 2004 01:38:34 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Better for it to go off on a high note than for it to become a shadow of its former self like Buffy Seasons 7.
Question
Sunday, February 15, 2004 01:22:06 AM
IP: 144.92.164.199

I forgot to mention, in case anyone hasn't heard... Angel's been cancelled. Bastards.
Bud-Clare
Sunday, February 15, 2004 12:41:46 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Gside> <<Is it Soul Music or one of the others?>>
Pretty sure it's Soul Music.

<<And you're not going to take pity on me?>>
Do you really think I'm kind enough for that?
_______________
Lady Mystic> <<I've got 3 months to get my blood pressure levels within the mid-normal range or else I'll be prescribed medication.>>
Eek. Good luck.
______________________
Dezi> *sighs* I can't believe how much time I just wasted. For TNG, I found reference to a Dr. Mendoza, and there was a Captain Paul Rice (played by Marco Rodriguez). I remember a woman in a yellow uniform, first or second season, but I can't remember her name or what episode she's in (or if she really existed). There weren't too many, but there were definitely some. Besides, there are shows other than star trek. ;)
Bud-Clare
Sunday, February 15, 2004 12:40:22 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Lain> <<EXACTLY!>>: I thought as much. Hey, wait a minute. How'd thost censored tags replace CENSORED, CENSORED, and CENSORED? What, again? Oh well, I guess it'll have to remain a surprise.
<<aww, i love you, gside>>: Only because I give you hints on how to torture Gunjack after you have a fight. How you doing on tatting the lace for the firing pin's bra?

Dezi> <<His profound thought for the day?
That in the future, for some reason, there are no Mexicans>>: I fully believe such ponderances are actually more profound than a second look at them judges.

Na zdorov'ya
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Saturday, February 14, 2004 11:42:33 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Aw, man, a whole day's thought down the drain for my dad! Guess I'll have to send him a Rubix cube. ;)
Dezi
Saturday, February 14, 2004 11:11:04 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Dezi:<>

I seem to remember a engineer named "Rodriguez", a Lieutennant I think. I not sure if it was the original series or "Next Gen" (leaning toward the original series)I'm sure there are others but that's the only name I remember at the moment. :)
Leo
Saturday, February 14, 2004 10:50:53 PM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Ok, let's narrow the parameters here. How, about Star Trek only, as Star Wars was set long long ago in a galaxy far far away.
Dezi
Saturday, February 14, 2004 10:37:00 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Hmmm. Interesting. But I do think it's cool when we read, like say Dark Ages, and the writers describe a gargoyle and it seems oddly familiar to one we already know and love. It just makes a little coolness in a hint hint kinda way. *shrugs*

Anyway, I just got a call from my dad. This is what war does to people. His profound thought for the day?
That in the future, for some reason, there are no Mexicans (he also included all other hispanics, latinos and people of Spanish decent). Why, you might ask? Because in all those futuristic tv shows (Star Trek, Star Wars...) They never had a latino guy. As my dad put it, heck, they had a Scottish guy, a French guy, never a hispanic guy. Not even the poor guy in every Trek episode in the red shirt that was sent off in the other direction only to be attacked and killed. So my dad came to the conclusion that between now and the time setting of those shows, something bad must have happened and that's why there are no Hispanics left. He has now declared his mission in Iraq to be to protect his people!!! :). I told him he has too much time to think. But on the other hand, I couldn't think of one Hispanic guy on Star Trek either....and I was surprised no one had thought of it before. So what do you guys think? (and the 2nd in command from ST Voyager doesn't count because his character was supposed to be Native American).

Well, it was a happy thought anyway, and he cheered me up. I may be having surgery on Monday and am not looking forward to it. :(
Dezi
Saturday, February 14, 2004 10:20:18 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

HARD-WING> Yes, those were Demona's parents in the way the entire older generation were Demona's parents. Goliath's parents, Othello's, Desdemona's, Iago's, etc.

Biological parentage means nothing... and in my opinion, having the staff change that in the future was a mistake.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, February 14, 2004 09:34:34 PM
IP: 216.179.1.19

Hello!

I was just interest in one point which hadn't become clear in the fic "Alliances", tell me was the second to the time when the alliance was made indeed Demona's mother? And, second question, was the leader her father?
Hardwing - [hardwing@web.de]
The Ruhr, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
Saturday, February 14, 2004 08:53:20 PM
IP: 80.143.196.21

In honor of St. Valentine's Day, here's a pic of Brooklyn and Sata courtesy of the talented Briana Garcia.

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/5267185/
Spike
Saturday, February 14, 2004 04:47:06 PM
IP: 209.30.77.87

Hi you guys,
First time I visit the Comment Room, nice to see that after 10 years there still quit a lott of Gargoyle-addicts.
I didn't know that the're new designs for the Bad-Guys-characters, or else I would've drawn them differently.
Could someone describe their new outfits?
(Sorry, my English is not that good)
Thanks Ronald

Ronald - [ronald12345@hotmail.com]
X, X, The Netherlands
Saturday, February 14, 2004 08:23:46 AM
IP: 217.120.2.147

oh, i forgot to add this. lynati was nice enough to let me put up some cat pictures on her site temporarily. there was a problem with developing the film, which is why theres an annoying green line through all the cat pics. the other film, with the gun pics, came out fine. cant win em all.
http://lynativerse.artchicks.org/LainTemp/
or clicky.
lain
Saturday, February 14, 2004 05:32:08 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

arie>> <<Be nice if I had someone I could go with>>
where do you live?

gside>> <<You mean like how CENSORED would happen to CENSORED during the CENSORED of the season?>>
EXACTLY!! ;)
<<Sometimes by ignoring someone's posting style completely. Maybe that's why I don't get many resoponses>>
aww, i love you, gside :)
lain
Saturday, February 14, 2004 04:30:13 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

DPH> <<as long this private school doesn't discriminate in admissions, who cares?>>: Depends on whether you think de facto segregation is better than de jure.

Lain> <>: And I have a couple incompletes. Evil laugh.
<<the character designs? notsomuch. plot? ooooh yes>>: You mean like how CENSORED would happen to CENSORED during the CENSORED of the season?

Aria> <<The whole discussion on gargoyle physiology is fascinating. Shame it's so scattered across this multi-scrolling page of endless chatter and debate>>: Stay around here much and you'll get used to picking out the bits you find interesting. Sometimes by ignoring someone's posting style completely. Maybe that's why I don't get many resoponses.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Friday, February 13, 2004 11:54:35 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

DPH: "Hmm. I thought the requirement of entrance into this room of giving up your sanity."
Isn't that the case for every descussion room?
The reason why it's writen like that is because I either go by Aria_The_Insane or Aria Nightshadow. The former being born on Battle.net during my Diablo 1 days, the latter, a last name, chosen for my persona when I RP.
Which doesn't happen that often anymore.

Vashkoda: "That's what driving buddies/roommates are for."
Be nice if I had someone I could go with.

Did I mention I don't like traveling?
I'm a pessimist by nature, so sue me. :P

The whole discussion on gargoyle physiology is fascinating. Shame it's so scattered across this multi-scrolling page of endless chatter and debate.
Aria (The Insane) Nightshadow
Friday, February 13, 2004 07:45:45 PM
IP: 216.113.222.96

DPH>> <<Who in heck is "Ronyn Canmore"? I know of "Robyn Canmore" but not "Ronyn Canmore">> have a look at your keyboard. you will notice the "n" is right next to the "b". therefore one might assume that it is a typo.

lady mystic>> <<Keep in mind that these images still need to be voted upon by the general public, which includes any TGS staffers, before they will be implemented into the CR>>
yesh, of course.
<>
i do have them all, but they are in various states of completion. as mentioned privately, i will forward them to you when they are finished. (we are still mucking a little with the designs... matrix is staying mostly the same, the robyn design has changed but that was released in the last avmists (though not in colour) dingo still needs some serious help and fang and yama are.... mostly finished, i think... plus the fact that not all of them will remain the same for the entire run of the series...)
<<If there is a source (rough sketches or written descriptions) for the "Bad Guys" character designs, please let me know where I might find them as I am not aware of what the re-design character models look like>>
there isnt. but i could put one together and mail it to you, if you want.
<<(Although, I am fully aware that the character designs may need to be kept out of the public eye.)>>
the character designs? notsomuch. plot? ooooh yes ;)
<<In the mean time, what are your suggestions regarding this issue?>>
well... i guess i dont really have any. ;) i wasnt sure whether you knew the designs werent accurate or not. you never answered my email way back so i wasnt sure even if you got it. in any case, nobody else in here knows that the designs are not accurate so i guess it still counts as a warning that, though they are "bad guys pictures", they arent "TGS bad guys spoiler pictures". ;)

whit>> << (Came out better than the soon-to-be ex-bachelor, though; he puked in class today in the middle fo a lecture on hepatitis)>>
..oh dear.

damien>> <<am i dreaming or did i read somewhere on the site that the head of the illuminati (or another large group) was sir percival...>>
it wasnt on this site, no. probably you read that in "ask greg". please realize, however, that not everything read in "ask greg" is necessarily encorporated into TGS, either because we went in a different direction, or because that particular revelation had not yet been made.
<<can't wait to read the next few stories>>
have fun :)

question>> <<Is that how Dingo and Matrix work together in the Bad Guys leica thats shown every year at the gatherin?>>
not that i recall o.O... but i could be wrong. someone with a better memory?
<<Anyone reminded of that creature that bonded to Jay and later Alpha in MiB?>>
yes, actually.
lain
Friday, February 13, 2004 06:32:00 PM
IP: 4.7.35.8

nevermind DUH it was in the ask greg files (so obviously it doesn't factor into the TGS)
or does it?
thanks!
Damien
Friday, February 13, 2004 06:12:12 PM
IP: 207.6.149.113

Bad Guys Group Pic> Is that how Dingo and Matrix work together in the Bad Guys leica thats shown every year at the gatherin? Anyone reminded of that creature that bonded to Jay and later Alpha in MiB?
Question
Friday, February 13, 2004 05:56:06 PM
IP: 144.92.164.199

<<Tharos - Tell me a place where you can display it where it means Southern Pride *and* racism isn't involved. The only place it could possibly mean Southern pride is in the South, but then Southern pride usually goes along with racism.

Caboose - Thanks for explaining to Tharos some of the history of the Civil War.

Tharos - I disagree. Southern pride started with large plantation owners who were supported by . . slaves. Sure they would entertain guests well, . . because they could afford to since they had slaves. >>

Jeez, sorry man... this is why I don't get into online arguments. And in fact, I DO know a thing or two about the Civil War. I got into this big racism discussion, and spent the last two days talking to my brother, who's in his last year of college as a history major, about it.

I think racism's wrong, too, so we're on the same side here. I just think that before the meaning was TOTALLY lost, the Confederate flag could be flown to represent pride in the Southern states, and not only racism (not EVERYONE in the South, or even the Confederate army, was a slave owner). The thousands of people living in the South were more than just slave-owning farmers, so the flag represented a whole way of life. Just like when people fly the American flag because they're proud to be American - it doesn't mean they're proud of everything America's ever done or stood for, but they're still proud of their country of birth.

Anyway, I'm not even having fun with this debate. I totally agree that the flag now means racism, so there we go.
Tharos - [r_u_ready3@hotmail.com]
Friday, February 13, 2004 04:10:48 PM
IP: 69.40.139.197

hi y'all
just finished season one of pendragon and starteding on the "second season"
** umm if you havn't read much of the tgs don't read this next part**

am i dreaming or did i read somewhere on the site that the head of the illuminati (or another large group) was sir percival...
i remeber reading something about the list of all the people still alive since athurian times (eg morgana arthur merlin percival percy's wife.. blah)
am i just crazy or what?

**** you can read now****
can't wait to read the next few stories.

Damien
Friday, February 13, 2004 04:04:27 PM
IP: 142.207.115.80

Garg phsyiology:
1)Know one ever said Severius was right about the energy absorbtion during stone sleep thing. It was just his hypothesis.
2)I think the 'stone' is actually calcium-based. College biology taught me that calcium-chlorid shells in molluscks and such have a 3 demensional molecular sturcture that is relitively as strong as most 'natural' and human-made hard stuff.
3)I believe stone sleep is triggered ENTIRELY by a biological clock. Which is why they can turn to stone indoors and such.
4)When the clocks hits morning, calcium is released from special organelles, as a result of this, the body starts producing a secondary compound. The second compound reaches critical mass just as sun goes down, ending stone sleep.
5)The biological clock can is subconsciously 'reset' if a gargoyle looks at the sky and notices it's different time of night then he/she thought. Looking at a clock would have the same effect.
6)The Earth's magnetic field might be involved wiht the biological clock.
7)If gargoyles have larger hearts and lungs, prehaps their other organs are smaller and/or positioned differently in the chest.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, February 13, 2004 02:04:17 PM
IP: 132.170.38.101

Don't have the energy to write much; I was at a bachelor party last night and my head is pounding. (Came out better than the soon-to-be ex-bachelor, though; he puked in class today in the middle fo a lecture on hepatitis)

But I'd love to help do something like that at the Gathering. My only comment would be either to make it a panel discussion, or to do something else to make it entertaining. Medical lectures aren't much fun unless the lecturer spices it up somewhat. If I can pull together a Sevarius costume or something...should be easy enough...hmm...:-)
But yeah, Yggdrasil, I'd be up for something like that.
Whitbourne
Friday, February 13, 2004 01:56:26 PM
IP: 156.34.87.140

*continuing from Last Ramble*

Lain - <it was an interesting discussion though, was it not?> Yes, it was interesting to see the points we agreed on and the points were strongly disagreed about. <(we were debating religion on IM and NOT in the CR... happy everyone?)> There are topics where it is better to discuss things on IM than in the CR.

Leo - <*is confused* > I was responding to Andrea (or is it Annie)'s comments about racial preferences. Anyways, to me, the confederate flag is a symbol of racism, which is what led to the short term need for racial preferences. In the South, among the older generation, this problem called 'racism' still exists and, unfortunately, is occasionally passed down to the next generation. Off the top of my head, I can think of 2 expressions that my dad has used which I consider racist. As long as that attitude of racism exists when it comes to admissions, there's a problem.

When some people wanted to set a private school up in an area where there was a school desegration lawsuit up, there were people trying to get the private school from becoming a reality because of how it would affect the balance of black/white students in the public schools. My thoughts are, as long this private school doesn't discriminate in admissions, who cares? (If this private school was set-up to be a whites only school, that's a different matter.)

Mooncat - Which part of the USA do you leave in? Down in the south, that's a real issue.

Patrick - <I'm sure from the context you either meant to type "I'm 110% in favor of ending racism" or "I'm 100% against racism."> that's right.

Aria (The Insane) Nightshadow - <(The Insane)> Hmm. I thought the requirement of entrance into this room of giving up your sanity.

Ray - <Are any tgs Staff profesional writers, or do any have profesional ambition?> professional writers, no. personal ambition, probably.

Tharos - Tell me a place where you can display it where it means Southern Pride *and* racism isn't involved. The only place it could possibly mean Southern pride is in the South, but then Southern pride usually goes along with racism.

Caboose - Thanks for explaining to Tharos some of the history of the Civil War.

Tharos - I disagree. Southern pride started with large plantation owners who were supported by . . slaves. Sure they would entertain guests well, . . because they could afford to since they had slaves.

I'd argue racism, for the most part is dead/dying and with each new generation, things improve. My dad has a couple of sayings that aren't exactly nice about African-Americans. I will not repeat them here.

By the time I'm 60, I would hope the need for affirmative action problems based on race would be gone.

The stupid moron was forbad me from leaving my home during Spring Break to visit friends. I wouldn't have left if my house wasn't cleaned up first. Oh well. This is bull. I'm willing to put my body through the pain and I'm sure that I could call in favors from my brother to take care of things while I'm gone. I help him a lot and, in turn, if I need a favor, I can count on him to help me. Isn't that what brothers who are good friends are for?
DPH
AR, USA
Friday, February 13, 2004 12:53:24 PM
IP: 161.31.105.198

kathy - I'd love to go this year, but it will depend on my job situation and money situation truly, truly. Driving from Kansas to Montreal isn't an option for me, so definitely it would take air fare. Cost of rooms I'm not as worried about because I'm sure I could find roomies, but having the days to do this and do it right if I'm working a new job (which is likely) could be terribly iffy.

But... it's not completely ruled out, just sort of very unlikely unless I get a sudden windfall or my employment situ becomes more gravy than gristle.

In the meanwhile I'll work on art and stuff *^_^* -- if I miss this year, I'll try extra extra hard to make it for 2005.

*dreaming of Gatherings past and future*
Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Friday, February 13, 2004 12:42:15 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Who in heck is "Ronyn Canmore"? I know of "Robyn Canmore" but not "Ronyn Canmore".
DPH
AR, USA
Friday, February 13, 2004 12:24:33 PM
IP: 161.31.105.198

lain: Keep in mind that these images still need to be voted upon by the general public, which includes any TGS staffers, before they will be implemented into the CR. I gladly welcome submissions of images that are more accurate to the re-designed "Bad Guys" character models. If there is a source (rough sketches or written descriptions) for the "Bad Guys" character designs, please let me know where I might find them as I am not aware of what the re-design character models look like. (Although, I am fully aware that the character designs may need to be kept out of the public eye.) In the mean time, what are your suggestions regarding this issue?
Lady Mystic
Friday, February 13, 2004 08:08:41 AM
IP: 68.250.42.61

lady mystic>> <<The original "Bad Guys" group portrait is courtesy of Ronald, as well. The new CR images entitled "Bad Guys," "Matrix & Dingo" in 2 versions, "Ronyn Canmore" and "Yama" can be viewed via the following page>> which is great except.. the person who drew them doesnt have any idea of how their characters have been re-designed for TGS, and they are therefore decidedly inaccurate.. : \
lain
Friday, February 13, 2004 05:59:45 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

***** TGS CR INFO UPDATES *****

ARCHIVE:

The 2004 Archive has been updated to include the weeks of January 5, 2004 through February 9, 2004, for a total of 4 new weeks.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/2004/
>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/frames.html

FULFILLED CR PIC REQUEST:

After much delay, I finally finished editing and making the popup pages regarding Ronald's pic request. The original "Bad Guys" group portrait is courtesy of Ronald, as well. The new CR images entitled "Bad Guys," "Matrix & Dingo" in 2 versions, "Ronyn Canmore" and "Yama" can be viewed via the following page.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/other/new/

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/request_list.html

***** END TGS CR INFO UPDATES *****

In other news, and if anyone is interested, I recently found out that I have borderline high blood pressure. I've got 3 months to get my blood pressure levels within the mid-normal range or else I'll be prescribed medication. Great news to hear so soon before the wedding, which is in 4 months by the way.
Lady Mystic
Friday, February 13, 2004 05:43:52 AM
IP: 68.250.42.61

Kjay> Cool! I thought I remembered you.

Greg's already said that their bones aren't hollow.
Vash
Friday, February 13, 2004 12:37:18 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Vashkoda>Yep that's me in that pic!
Garg wings> It is possible for the wing bones to be hollow
if the material in them to contain a hard calcium-carbon compound to make up for the disavanges for the wings being
hollow?
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Friday, February 13, 2004 12:22:56 AM
IP: 172.165.245.134

Hey i haven't been lurking much lately so maybe this is old news, but....

COMCAST AND DISNEY????!!!!!

Now, Disney buying Comcast I could see. I wonder if there are a lot of Gargoyles fans in Comcast. At any rate, Disney has fallen far indeed if it can just be bought like that.

Click my name for the news article or go to:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/02/11/comcast.disney/index.html

later
Mecord - [<= clicky]
Friday, February 13, 2004 12:22:45 AM
IP: 129.123.104.8

Kjay> <>: But they bounce back too readily to be made of anything too brittle.

Yggdrasil> <<as well as theorize about things that have no possible scientific reasoning>>: Not too much theorizing if they can force Greg into it.

Lynati> <<Let�s have some cheering for him and the new archive in the works, shall we?>>: Hoorah, hoorah, hoorah.
<<it is more the *other( possibilities that I don�t know enough to speculate on>>: And it gets a bit iffy coming up with something new, as it has to grab oxygen easily, but not hold on to it too hard so it can be let off at the cells.
<>: You're just saying that last bit to make me feel better.
<<But thank you for making the former more clear>>: Not a problem, as long as it really was more clear.

Aria> <<Do you know how expensive it is to stay over there?>>: And I take it you don't get to play around with exchange rates.

Na zdorov'ya
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:55:09 PM
IP: 68.37.159.199

kjay> re: tolls/hotel> That's what driving buddies/roommates are for. Myself, I still haven't figured out if the timing will be right enough that I can go, but there are plenty of other fans in NY. Ask around. Btw, I forget, but were you the Angela in this pic?
Vashkoda
Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:52:19 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Gathering>(Is it expensive?)Yes and no. Take me for example. I've been to 3 gatherings newyork, florida, and texas. The NY gathering was no problem since I lived in ny
at the time and cost wasn't a problem. For the florida gathering I saved 500 dollars (in which I over estimated the cost and only needed 300 dollars. I had already paid for the hotel costs). 160 dollars was for gas(19 hour drive from NY) and the rest was for food and spending money. The texas Gathering was a little more expensive since I took a plane instead of driving, plus hotel costs.
Now the montreal gathering will be VERY costly for me for
I go, if I can get leave. First of all the transportion cost would range about 1120 dollars round trip from el paso texas to canada (A trip from tx to ny is $460 one way. A plane ticket is 500 dollars one way.). There is no
way in the world I'm going to make 2 1/2 day trip in one
swoop. So I'm going to a stop at a firend's house. Then I'm going to make a stop at my sister's house in brooklyn, and then drive the six hours from brooklyn to montreal. Plus I have to pay tolls. Then comes the hotal cost. $120
a night x3! Which comes out to 360 dollars. So my trip will now cost $1480. Not inculding spending money. I might just stay in the hotel for the first night and then sleep
at another hotel in New york for much cheaper making the
drive to the gathering. End the end the gathering will cost me about two weeks of leave and a big chunk of my money but it will be worth every dime.
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:38:07 PM
IP: 172.165.245.134

[Heh, they're gonna make a Simpsons movie.
Somebody shoot me. It hurts... ]
Thanks for the news! The Simpsons sure have sucked lately, but I'll always remember the good old mid-90's episodes.
Tharos
Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:35:38 PM
IP: 69.40.139.38

Patrick:<<"Be vewy, vewy quiet...">>

Cute. :)
Leo
Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:12:43 PM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Just back for a moment to post an interesting link.

"Be vewy, vewy quiet..."
Patrick - [<-- if WB and Disney merged?]
Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:51:14 PM
IP: 65.43.174.130

Mooncat > Supporting memberships are fully upgradable. Greg didn't differentiate, so I'm going to say Yes, supporting memberships count. (But live bodies are better).

Is a Gathering expensive? Sometimes, especially if you get hot and heavy into the auction. But rooms and rides can be shared. In fact, we recommend it. Buddying up only adds to the Gathering Experience. So come and enjoy a weekend in Montreal!

Aw, common, Moonie, you have to come. It won't be the same without you!
kathy
Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:44:38 PM
IP: 66.82.197.108

I've always been of the belief that if there's something worth doing that you truly want to do, you will find a way to do it. I've attended every Gathering, and not a single one of them has been within 500 miles of where I live. There are several others in the fandom who can say the same thing, including two I know of who travel from Europe every year to attend. So the way I see it, if you really want to be there... you will find a way.

Guandalug > Yay! I'm especially anxious to see the voting return to the archive. That will be a welcome thing for those of us who are feedback junkies. :)
Patrick
Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:11:19 PM
IP: 65.43.174.130

Heh, they're gonna make a Simpsons movie.

Somebody shoot me. It hurts...
Dezi - [<- Clickie for D'oh!]
Thursday, February 12, 2004 09:33:26 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

I'd love to go to the Gathering but there is a problem.
The one time it is actually in Canada, it's in Montreal. Do you know how expensive it is to stay over there? I can't afford it, so I wont be coming. Someone else might be determined enough to make it work, but I don't work like that.
The fact that it's on the other side of the continent doesn't help much either. :\

500 people attending the Gathering.
How many attended the Gathering all the other years? Did it top half that? I suggest doing some research to see how many people came to each Gathering, where each was held, the cost of travel and staying there, etc.
Once you have statistics, then you can figure out whether or not 500 people attendance is possible to attain.
Aria (The Insane) Nightshadow
Thursday, February 12, 2004 09:31:30 PM
IP: 216.113.222.55

Guandalug : [archive maintenance and be-smacking of the archive abusers] Yaye for Guan! Let�s have some cheering for him and the new archive in the works, shall we?

Sydney: good to hear another voice in this. : ) (especially one that agrees with me, heh.)

Yggdrasil: But except for the egg-laying, Gargoyles seem to be closer to mammals than reptiles or fish�they�re like the six-limbed version of a monotreme, only with nipples.
And, you know, other differences. ; )
So, do you think gargies have �em and still actively use them, or don�t have them at all?

Any other suggestions about alterations in organ design, what they might have that we don�t, what they might lack that we have, or just anything that functions differently?
(And I�m asking all y�alls following this conversation, not just Yggdrasil, so feel free to throw in!)

Gside: [hemoglobin] I knew some of that, not all, but it is more the *other( possibilities that I don�t know enough to speculate on. But thank you for making the former more clear.

[I'd say rib bone size don't depend only on heart size.] me either, I just kinda segued into that�if both the heart and ribs are bigger, then the rib cage should be bigger, and yes, its because you�d want there to be less weight in an airborne creature that they might be more lightweight�but in the opposite sense, you might want a stronger construction to protect them (�greater resiliency� ) so they possibly could be wider.

But I have to once again toss in my �the wings are not the main form of transportation� argument�the wings are smaller than both legs and arms, they aren�t structured to fly (�we only glide, etc.�) �they�ve got more of a built-in hang glider system than anything else it could be compared to. I think the socket of the wings where it hits the main shoulder blade (since process of elimination removed the possibility of it attaching anywhere else, and the bone is obviously not just free-floating amid the muscles of the back- it has to sit against *something*) rotates more forward, but doesn�t allow it to come to far back. They can cape them, close them, but they only open to a point before they lock. Probably a handful of degrees less than a right-angle to the spine, since we�ve seen they sit in that position pretty naturally while not open but not caped. In the same sense, they seem to be held fairly �upright� as a natural position when not caped, so one assumes they must be seated against more bone (or such) below as well. I mean, try walking around with your hands held above your head for a while�that�s not a natural position for us. And suddenly I am theorizing about wing construction instead of rambling about proof that they rely primarily on their legs, and all-fours on occasion, for movement, not gliding. �which seems fitting, now that I see what the other posts have been on�

[Since Gargs wings are alot like bat wings most likily they may be configured in the same fashion.]
They can�t be. The fingers aren�t rigid enough. Again, except noticeably in Kythera�s design. Look at it this way- can you bend your femur in its center? Any other bone in your body in its center, not where it joints to other bones?
Even a little?
Not so that its noticeable. And in gargoyles, its very noticeable that the fingers of the wing can move in such a manner. At least the ones we have seen. Now, I�m not saying that there aren�t those that have long thing bat-like phalanges in their wings; its certainly possible. I�m just saying none of the show�s characters, and most drawings of original characters, have an appearance that supports that theory.
Although yes, there were drawn more so like that at different times in animation, as well as in fan art. Just not enough to draw a solid conclusion of their construction, else we wouldn�t be arguing the point. ; )

As for being hollow, well, most of a bird�s body is such. They need to be in order to fly. Gargies don�t fly. And they obviously don�t have hollow bird-like bones in most of their anatomy, not with the damage they take on a daily basis. Bird bones break very, very easily; if gargoyles had hollow bones, they would shatter their hands when trying to punch through a wall, their enemies, or even just when digging their talons into brick to climb up a wall. It�s possibly the density does change in the wings, and if I�m right about the cartilage, well, that is a density change.
But I think the primary bones of the wing arm would need to again be stronger, more dense, to support the weight of the rest of the body while aloft. One would also assume that they had a lighter mass all around�maybe the bones themselves have something about their construction that makes them more strong, but lighter weight at the same time. Maybe the same applies to the muscles and the blood, tying into the whole �other means than hemoglobin� factor of oxygenating the blood. Unfortunately, we have again reached the point at which I am clueless to offer up a response to the �like what?� that follows. Or again, maybe it is �magic� that makes Gargoyles weigh less than their anatomy would if they were built like humans. But it's such an escapist solution...

[and the long "finger" part is mostly made up of many smaller jointed bones (if you look at a bat wing it's nothing but a modtified hand made for flight).]
I know, I have bat anatomy in my collective atlas. They were one of the first species I went after, for the very reason of the wings. And again, their modification is that the phalanges are longer. (and have webbing between them.) But they still only have *three*. And like I said yesterday, gargoyles would need far more jointed bones of a small size to give them the flexibility they have demonstrated, which is simply not that probable. All of their anatomy is basically the same as the basic structure of the rest of the animal kingdom, except for third set of limbs, and even those tend to look like human arms. Or bird wings. It�s less likely that they have managed to sprout more digits than it is that the wings are made up of some other material that allows them the same motion.
[Gargie wing span] �yeah�I think both the fingers and the membrane are somewhat retractable (which I *think* would be easier with cartilage) as an �in-story� explanation for Greg Weisman�s admitted �cheat� that they had drawn the wings smaller when caped or not extended for gliding.

Ray: [About Garg. wings. One time I was thinking about how they were able to fold the wings like cloaks, and the obvious conclussion to that was that they were like spines]
Which is, again, just not that likely, at least not if they are made out of bone.

[Another thing that I considered was that they could be able to harden or soften their wing ribs]
*blinks* See? I�m not the only one who came to that conclusion. Hee!
[Gargoyles do flap their wings, you can see it in 'City of Stone, part one' when they suprise those terrorists. ]
They raise and lower to adjust for wind currents and such while gliding, and may make a flapping motion to give an extra push, but they don�t need to flap to keep themselves aloft. And they are physically incapable of flapping to take off the ground, or even opening their wings and letting the air lift them aloft from the ground like Pteradons could. They are too heavy, and lack the muscle power.

[ Are any tgs Staff profesional writers, or do any have profesional ambition?]
At present? Uh�that�s the thing. Most leave the staff if/when they start writing professionally, because they often lack time to work on the project. I think right now the only �professional� writer is Robby, who works for a comic company�I�m not sure about the others still on staff. I�m a creative writing major (not that that says much, I�ve seen some creative writing majors that couldn�t write their way out of a wet paper bag) and wouldn�t mind being published, but that is not how I intend to make a living; I�m primarily a designer and a ceramic sculpturist.

[<<along with Greg's professed ignorance in biology>>: I know, force him to attend a basic bio seminar at a Gathering. With joint presenters Whitbourne (macro) and Yggdrasil (micro). <MI could make this happen if you guys are interested and Yggdrasil and Whitbourne (or anyone else) would be willing to present it.>]

Dare I suggest it�Theoretical Gargoyle Biology 101?

If you do go for it, you can use my visual aides� ; )

Lynati - [Lynati_1@hotmail.com]
Thursday, February 12, 2004 07:44:53 PM
IP: 66.140.87.160

*peeks back in for a second*
Oh, and Dellmilon, if you're reading this - sorry, but i 'accidentally' erased your account while removing that lonely file you uploaded as a story. If you want to publish something worth reading - sign up again.
*smiles puckishly and disappears again*
Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]
Thursday, February 12, 2004 06:35:33 PM
IP: 145.254.105.104

Leo> *eyes the GFA current stories list* Indeed. And guess what..... that stories gone now. No, the GFA is NOT a playground for spammers and suchlike.

If the author 'Dellmilon' wants to explain why he uploaded such a crap (mostly binary stuff - wonder how he got pastthe file recognition code in the GFA) - my email is right down there.

*growls*

Oh, and for all those who wonder about it - the voting ability will be back - together with an all-new, overhauled website and a few more features. Stay tuned..... and don't worry, the stories will stay, as will all informations linked with them. I'm going to overhaul the website, not the archive.

*poofs, still growling*

Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]
Thursday, February 12, 2004 06:27:40 PM
IP: 145.254.105.104

Kathy - re Greg spilling the beans if 500 register, does that mean only warm bodies, or will "there in spirit" memberships count too? This might move me to send in a membership even if I don't physically attend :D

meows
Mooncat
>^,,^<
mooncat
Thursday, February 12, 2004 06:23:26 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Caboose, i've never seen or been in a flame war either! hehe

after all these damn years, if 500 ppl register we'll learn what was whispered to fox? as much as i want to know, is as much as i don't, it'll more than likely raise 9thousand more questions... angel sucked last night. exploding chickens, backwards monkies!!!
JacKaL
Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:52:40 PM
IP: 152.163.252.196

Greetings;

Lynati: The appendix may be a vestigial element in humans, but it does play a substantial role in other mammals. In many herbivores (rodents, and some ruminants), it is an elongated pouch where an additional enzymatic digestion of cellulose takes place. As to whether it has any role in gargoyles, I think it would depend on their diet. If the diet of the gargs is still heavily based upon foods with a high cellulose content, then they should still have an appendix, or something to that effect, to aid their digestion (appendix, multiple stomachs ect). If however they have fully moved to an omnivorous, relying on more starchy foods, they it may have become vestigial. My comparative animal phys classes were a long time ago, but I don't remember seeing anything like the appendix in reptiles or fish, so the appearance of the appendix may be restricted to mammals. If this is the case, gargoyles may never have had them in the first place.

Kathy: The bio talk sounds interesting. I'll drop you an email with my vitals.

Whitbourne: Well, what do you think? Shall we try to educate the masses ;-) (as well as theorize about things that have no possible scientific reasoning)? Drop me an e-mail sometime and we'll try to put something together (and for once we actually have time to procrastinate).

Yggdrasil - [eng050599@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:34:54 PM
IP: 66.185.84.203

Taleweaver >>

<< Kaito> I only had a chance to skim your Tryanny of the Majority bit. >>

If you want a serious, respectful response, please, at least put in the effort to spell the name right. It only has 6 letters.

<< Major disagreement there. >>

That's fine. Just email me privately. Everyone else seems to have moved on.

Gathering 2004 >> Fox and Titania, eh? Damn. We have to get 500 people now. Fire up that recruitment drive!

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:28:50 AM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Vashkoda> <<along with Greg's professed ignorance in biology>>: I know, force him to attend a basic bio seminar at a Gathering. With joint presenters Whitbourne (macro) and Yggdrasil (micro).

I could make this happen if you guys are interested and Yggdrasil and Whitbourne (or anyone else) would be willing to present it.

If you are, drop me an email via my "VOLUNTEER" address at gatheringofthegargoyles.com and we'll work something on to the schedule.

Also - you've got roughly two weeks left to enter the PHOENIX GATE ANTHOLOGY CONTEST. Remember this is open to WRITERS AND ARTISTS BOTH. DEADLINE is MARCH 1st.

Final Also - GREG WEISMAN has volunteered that he will FINALLY reveal what TITANIA WHISPERED to FOX if we have Gathering attendance of 500 REGISTRATIONS.

So sign up if you haven't already and invite a friend (or three) to come with you to Montreal this August.
kathy
Thursday, February 12, 2004 09:33:56 AM
IP: 66.82.192.1

About Garg. wings. One time I was thinking about how they were able to fold the wings like cloaks, and the obvious conclussion to that was that they were like spines, in the part that leads up to the joint that would be considered the tumb on a bat. Another thing that I considered was that they could be able to harden or soften their wing ribs, there is an obvious parallel to real anatomy, but I would rather people think of it themselves.
PS: Gargoyles do flap their wings, you can see it in 'City of Stone, part one' when they suprise those terrorists.

Question: Are any tgs Staff profesional writers, or do any have profesional ambition?
Ray
Thursday, February 12, 2004 04:02:04 AM
IP: 212.117.127.210

Garg wings>I think that the wings are hollow like birds wings which are strong and light wieght. If the wings had nothing but multijointed segments like a tail dislocation and stablity will be a major issue. Since Gargs wings are alot like bat wings most likily they may be configured in the same fashion. Also because a gargoyle glides and not fly they don't need to make a constant flapping motion so their wings(if they did, they would need a wishbone as in birds) don't need to be very flexible except in certain places where a mixture of cartilage and/or joints might be a greater use. The size of a Gargoyle also has to be factored. A bat is a small animal and can get a way with wings being totally made up of small bones. A Gargoyle on
the other had can not. Therefore a good possiblity is that a Gargoyle has long hollow bones for the "arm" part of their wings and the long "finger" part is mostly made up
of many smaller jointed bones (if you look at a bat wing it's nothing but a modtified hand made for flight). Also
because of a Gargoyle's size their wing span have to be MASSIVE just to keep them up in the air. Take Goliath for
example. His real world wing span must be like 14-21 feet
(If you look at the wings of a glider, you'll know what I'm
talking about).
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Thursday, February 12, 2004 01:23:54 AM
IP: 172.138.10.119

Hello and salutations all,
Kaito> I only had a chance to skim your Tryanny of the Majority bit. Major disagreement there. You over simplified several complex systems to make your point. I'd like to get into it this weekend if the thread is still alive. One point that illustrates this is Constitutional rights. It wasn't a general agreed upon notion. John Marshall Supreme Court established that. On other points, human systems, political and cultural operate on more variables than just who is the majority. As I said, I'd love to discuss this when I have time.
Taleweaver
Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:56:25 AM
IP: 207.69.137.8

Question> <<They should just have another comment room for political comments and debate>>: One of the things I like about this place is that there are no separate areas for separate topics.
<<discussions on whether Asians are aliens>>: Waita Uziga must be.

Lain> <>: And I'm just saying you're not fooling anyone anything about us.
<<this debate (and caboose in private, yay caboose) has yoinked me out of the depths of the quasi-suicidal depression i have been in for the past several weeks>>: Are you sure it wasn't the oral sex?

Tharos> <<the Emancipation Proclamation (which didn't "free the slaves" in the sense most people think it did)>>: It freed the slaves in the Confederacy, who weren't listening to what DC was telling them anymore.

Lynati> <<although I�m rather lost on the hemoglobin vs. other molecule argument>>: Each hemoglobin can only hold a set number of oxygen, which every cell needs to live and make energy. In order to provide more oxygen to more cells and/or make more energy, you need to move around more hemoglobin. That can be done by making them move faster or move more of them in a large tube. Or you could just bypass that completely and use something that can hold on to more oxygen at once. As a side note to confuse things even more, do you know why carbon monoxide poisoning is so bad? It's because it bonds permanently to the hemoglobin, suffocating your cells even if you're breathing plenty of oxygen.
<<if the heart and lungs are both larger in comparison to a human, the rib cage needs to be larger...are the ribs the same size?>>: I'd say rib bone size don't depend only on heart size. Generally, I'd want to say smaller to lessen wight on an airborn species, but then I'd also want to say larger to account for greater resiliancy (or maybe it doesn't matter as much because internal injuries would be taken care of by stone sleep before they got bad).

Vashkoda> <<along with Greg's professed ignorance in biology>>: I know, force him to attend a basic bio seminar at a Gathering. With joint presenters Whitbourne (macro) and Yggdrasil (micro).

Whitbourne> <>: I think she meant being bent at midknucke (being hit or knocked against a surface back first) and not being broken.

Bud Clare> <<So, essentially, normal>>: No, beyond even that.
<>: Is it Soul Music or one of the others? Death's towel is one solid (yet fluffy *looking*) object fused to the towelrod.
<<That's what we've been saying all along>>: And you're not going to take pity on me?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:23:25 AM
IP: 68.37.159.199

Caboose> <<I've never seen an actual flame war>>
They're considerably more impressive than this past week has been.

<<Never been involved in a heated internet argument before--total newbie to the whole posting scene. Sorry.>>
'S'okay. I just get grumpy because there _always_ one or two people saying exactly what you said, every single time. It's nearly always a different person, but the theme is the same, and it gets aggravating, year after year... (I'm tempted to tell you about the religious discussion that we had in the S8 comment room years ago, but I need to go to bed. It's one of my most treasured flamewar memories, because I've always been a sucker for irony and that one just oozed it. Maybe tomorrow...or maybe someone else can tell you about it.)
_____________
DPH> <<GXB's post was about enforcing an earlier decision.>>
No, it wasn't. The conversation that Greg was going to end was only tangentially related the conversation that Aaron had ended. All pre-existing threads of conversation ended, and new ones began.

<<Putting the shoe on the other foot changes things.>>
I can think of a few places I'd like to put the shoe right now.
Bud-Clare
Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:14:35 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Bud-Clare - <Twice in one week is...excessive. > Excessive is when you can't complain about the cr admin. GXB's post was about enforcing an earlier decision. If an admin can't step into to enforce an earlier decision, regardless of when that decision was made, you've made the admin completely ineffective. It's really easy to criticize an admin of a forum if you've never been an admin of any forums. Putting the shoe on the other foot changes things.
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:09:05 AM
IP: 67.14.195.47

<<Re: Lynati's 'wing-finger' speech>> It's seems to me to be entirely possible that the enlongated fingers are made of cartilage, since it is both flexible and strong. Maybe the fact that Gargoyles are not entirely mammalian or other classification, they have a combination of a 'bony' skeleton (mammals and birds, etc.) and a cartilage skeleton (sharks) and, therefore, half of the phalanges (the ones not elongated) would be bony, and the other half (enlongated ones) would be cartilage. Like you said, the vertebrae-type structure is highly unlikely, but the cartilage theory seems to make more sense.
Sydney - [lightning_queen@hotmail.com]
PA
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:53:53 PM
IP: 63.234.32.97

Bud-Clare: I didn't mean to overreact. I've never seen an actual flame war or flame spat or anything before. Never been involved in a heated internet argument before--total newbie to the whole posting scene. Sorry.
Caboose - [caboose@wctc.net]
WI, USA
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:36:49 PM
IP: 198.150.93.3

Whit: [I don;t see why the wing fingers would be too "flexible" for bone. Flexibility is a function of the joints, not of the actual substance that makes up the articulating surfaces. Our costochondral joings have bone on one side and cartilage on the other and are extremely inflexible, whereas our shoulder joints, made of bone with some articulating cartilage covering it, has six potential movements that can be made. And our fingers are fairly flexible for being simple hinge joints. I wouldn't rule out having bone there just for flexibilities sake. You just might want to make the joints a more moveable saddle-type, for instance.
[The joints that allow them to fold the wings and cape them could be ball-and-socket joints very much like our shoulder and hip joints]
I already figured they were. ; )

But that...that is not the problem I am querying about. It's the finger portion themselves, not the whole arm that is my trouble.
See, its the length of "fingers" that hold out the wing, and the way they move. when the gargies in the show walked, the "fingers" of the wings flapped, as free-flowing as a tail. They draped smoothley over the arms after they separated from the wrist; they can be tossed over the shoulder as unrestisting ad a fabric cape. So unless they have small hinge joints running the length of each finger like the vertebrae of a cat's tail (which is possible, but seems less likely than the alternative) they wouldn't be able to move them like that. the phalanges of a bat's wing certainly don't "bend", since yeah, the bending is in the joints, not the bone, and the bone in this case is quite long and brittle. It seems more likely that the bones would have retracted to nubs, and have another material take over the length of the "finger", than have sprouted a larger number of fingerbones.

Especially since we have glider-style winged gargies who have two other fingers and a thumb in addition to the longer extremity, and all three of those digits appear to have the same number of bones as a regular gargoyle or human hand. The glider and bat style wings are basically the same; it just that the bat style have a larger number of (extended) digits with membrane between them.

Or to rephrase, it seemed more likely that the structure that keeps the "fingers" shape would be made of something other than bone. Like cartligous discs running the length of them...
But again, the main reason I'm looking for feedback here is that I'm starting (heh) to seriously fall out of my depth, to the point where I'm not even comfortable with putting forth a hypothosis, and want to make sure I'm not, uh, "calling the sky red" as it were.

This is the last main anatomical quirk that I have to sort out before I'm comfy with settling on a base design...I think I'm going to have to go stare at shark books in the kids section of barnes and noble until I can tell if what I'm proposing with the cartilage discs even makes sense.

my head hurts. and they pushed back my doctor's appointment another 3 weeks, as if 16 days wasn't enough time to wait in the first place. bast'ahds.

*lurks off*
Lynati
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:34:22 PM
IP: 66.141.254.171

That's so cool to thnk that Asrial has a sister!! She's one of my favorite charecters, and having another relative of hers that nobody's writen about leaves open whole new windows for Dark Ages. I wonder know if she also has an inquisitive mind, or if she's like the opposite of Asrial, tough but still sweet. And what should we call them.. Thanks a buch Spike!!
Annie
ID
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:31:51 PM
IP: 216.190.38.73

lain> <<yes, but in a tight-knit kinda way>>
It's good to be able to affectionately try to kill people.

<<oka cheese is made on the oka first nations reservation.>>
Ah.

<<it is a hard, pale orangeish-yellow cheese that is very sharp, and therefore very yummy.>>
As long as it's not moldy.

<<and it really sucked because she kept leaning over and saying "oh hey! ive been there!">>
And yet, what else do New Zealanders get to brag about? The number of obscene sheep-related jokes people make about them?
____________________
Andrea> <<Sorry if this post seemed bossy-like (for lack of a better term), but I for one am getting sick of all such debates here lately...>>
If you'd been paying more attention to the recent discussion, you'd know why I'm laughing at you right now.

<<Maybe we should pick an interesting topics to discuss...>>
We _were_ talking about interesting things. I'm sorry if you disagree, but that's not really my problem.

<<So, have you all had any funky dreams?>>
Yes, but you're too young to hear about them. And yes, I do know how old you are.
___________________
Gside> <<That'd have to be one messed up family.>>
So, essentially, normal.

<<I'd rather use Death's desk than one of Death's towels.>>
Drat. I don't remember Death's towels, and the book is at my mother's house...

<<#$@! I'm never going to get any at this rate.>>
That's what we've been saying all along.

<<If it's any consolation, I think it's a New England saying.>>
ACK! Too close!
__________________
Vinnie> <<anarchy is a type government>>
Really?

<<Discussions like these can start very easily, mostly when one or more people don't take a moment to calm down and think what they are trying to say.>>
Well, since you were at the center of the most recent _true_ flamewar, I guess you'd be an expert on the subject. :P
(I'm still bitter that I missed the fun that time, so I intend to keep reminding you of the incident over and over, so that you never dare start a flamewar ever again UNLESS I'M HERE. ;)
___________________
Caboose> <<Hey, look, I just don't want another flame war to erupt, okay?>>
_Another_ flame war? You mean another flame spat? Because that's the worst we've had here lately, so I'll thank you not to overreact.

<<Can we agree to disagree like mature adults without even wasting our breath on the topic?>>
No one was forcing you to participate. Let me repeat that, since it seems that it needs to sink in. No one was forcing you to participate. See how that works?
____________________
Greg> <<Aaron stepped into last week's, because it had reached the point where it needed admin intervention>>
But he didn't end it last week, it was early this week by then. Twice in one week is...excessive.
Bud-Clare
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:12:21 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Tharos:<Caboose: I suppose you're right. I was merely saying that the flag didn't start out that way - I agree that in the last 50 years or so it has taken on quite the racist meaning. I guess one of the main things I was trying to get across (now that I look, I didn't do too great of a job... meh, I'm doing a few other things here) is that the Civil War wasn't as clean cut, good vs. bad as most people claim. Anyway, yeah, I agree.>Sad but true, symbols that we often perceive as evil or hateful rarely start out that way. And the confederate flag isn't the only symbol that's been tarnished, thanks to human intervention, the Nazi swastica was once held as a symbol of brotherhood among Germans. I'm sure that there are many more examples as well.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:08:31 PM
IP: 216.234.99.55

Lynati> My nitrogen cycle knowledge is pretty sparse; I can dig up the references and take a look later if there's time. Right now the medical stuff is fixated on viruses and psychiatry. Woo hoo!

Just to answer the random questions:
Appendices: Dunno why they wouldn't, dunno why they would. :-) We do know that the appendix seems to have some role in peritoneal infections; there might be some lymphatic tissue in it that may help fight some infections in the abdominal cavity, but we don;t really know why humans have it. If gargoyles didn't, I don't see it being much of a loss.
I don;t see why the wing fingers would be too "flexible" for bone. Flexibility is a function of the joints, not of the actual substance that makes up the articulating surfaces. Our costochondral joings have bone on one side and cartilage on the other and are extremely inflexible, whereas our shoulder joints, made of bone with some articulating cartilage covering it, has six potential movements that can be made. And our fingers are fairly flexible for being simple hinge joints. I wouldn't rule out having bone there just for flexibilities sake. You just might want to make the joints a more moveable saddle-type, for instance. The joints that allow them to fold the wings and cape them could be ball-and-socket joints very much like our shoulder and hip joints; you'd just have to trade off stability of the joint if you want range of motion. (The more flexible a joint, the easier it is to dislocate).
If the heart and lungs are larger then you'd have a greater chest width, but keep in mind that you need to make sure the bones are relatively light for gliding. Hmm...I think that the number of ribs would be pretty analogous to us since they're similarly proportioned. The answer might be in the composition of the bone matrix; lighter calcium and phosphate salts, perhaps, or a less dense composition to the spongy bone.
Whitbourne
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:57:29 PM
IP: 156.34.51.141

re: antivirus updates> While you're at it, make sure you run windows update if you're on a PC. There was another critical flaw discovered recently in IE, for example, that could allow hackers access to your comp. And adware removal programs like Spybot and Adaware are also worth running, if you don't already do so. I recently had to reformat my lab's comp because some malware had slowed up processing to a crawl. =P
Vash
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:50:55 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Lynati> Heh, it seems you want to keep the thread of Garg biology going. I dunno if my negative post was the reason the topic sort of died; I get a little bitter when I'm reminded of how Greg's ideas defy science, and yet because of the 'novel idea' ban in AG--along with Greg's professed ignorance in biology--we'll never actually get to discuss it with him and perhaps make him see differently (even though he welcomes us to come up with ways to make it work. But I simply can't find a workaround for the solid stone problem). As for my old ideas, I made a webpage years ago in the style of a scientific report on the species. Since then, a few things have popped up in AG that disprove my 'theories' (such as Greg leaning toward it being thermal energy that gargs absorb, instead of light). Click my name if you're interested.
Vashkoda
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:40:58 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Hey people,

You know how some e-mail virus takes your e-mail addy or the addys of other people from files on you computer? Well apparently someone has a virus and it's gotten MY email addy and it's being sent to people, including MYSELF.

Yes I just got an email that has my email addy in the FROM screen.

Needless to say I'm pissed off.

So this is a warning, if ANYONE gets an email that appears to be from me, MooncatX -- check back with me to be sure I sent it.

The e-mail I got had the subject line "Dream for perverts !"

I suggest people run periodic Anti Virus checks on your computer. The person with the virus could be anyone who has my e-mail addy in their files, which considering I'm on many Yahoo Groups/Mail lists could be anyone of several thousand persons.

If anyone posts to a list with a lot of people, or even a few people, it only takes one person on that list having a virus that collects addys to grab your e-mail addy from the infected person's Mail Programs and start sending out bogus spam mails, possibly virus carriers with your e-mail listed in the "from" line.

I scan every night, so I'm fairly certain I have no virus, and the current e-mails with my address/ID attached have come from some infected person who is on one of the many lists yahoo lists I'm on.

Just thought I'd warn people here in case anyone gets a message with my e-mail addy that seems off.

Now I have to go post to a lot of lists. I think it may be from the Zimmerman list. It has several thousand people on it and I recently posted on it. It could be from a smaller list but the bigger a list is the more chance is someone on it is virus infected.

Did I mention how pissed off I am?

Later
MooncatX
Mooncat
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:35:55 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

<<Alex: for all that I liked the idea that gargoyle shad a third set of chambers to their heart, I�ve actually hated the idea that they had a triple-heart-beat. And I�ve only heard reference to that in one, maybe two fics. It�s actually one of the reasons I want to figure out the anatomy- so that details like that can be written accurately, at least in my own ficverse.>>

Fair enough. I don't necessarily subscribe to that either, but of all the possibilities it just strikes me as the better option; so I thought I'd expand for the sake of discussion. Anyway, I've done answered the call on S8 best I can - so back to lurking.

*fades back into the TGS CR shadows*
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 09:39:42 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130

Anatomy:
Mkay, Whit and Kjay convinced me that 4-chambers are better. (although I�m rather lost on the hemoglobin vs. other molecule argument, I�ll just stick with �there blood is more oxygenated� and not worry about how for now.)

Whitbourne:
[Still, though, if you want an immediate change, then straightforward nerve conduction is the fastest way we have. With sunrise and sunset seeming to be the keys, you'd want something that happens instantaneously. Nerves are the best "fast" pathway for transmission. ]
Gotcha. And thank you.

[I just chose the pineal gland since it seems to have some sort of circadian function in people. It's certainly possible that a different gland does the job in gargs. ]
I just figured that it would be a specialized gland, since humans don�t have a change equivalent to stone sleep in their biochemistry. *shrug*

[Energy needs to come from the sun, ultimately, for life; it may be that they respond to UV radiation as well. I'm a bit wary of the "magical energy" route because that leaves everything open. Maybe that's good, though. :-)]
mm, I just think there is more to them than can be explained with strict science- like just how they change from flesh to stone- and while I agree that they do take in energy from sunlight and such, I just fancy the notion that they have access to another source. Huh. Maybe something, possibly, involving the Nitrogen nutrient cycle? I�m not well versed in it, but it, if it somehow worked, would be another source. Heh, specialized gargie bacteria�I�m half-convinced �its just magic� is a serviceable enough answer for this one aspect. ; )

[Perhaps, though I go by the idea that it's a very tough but mostly solid crystallization of cells and that any pores would be microscopic�(etc)]
Yeeaaah�I so do not have the background to understand that. I�ll file it with the rest until I do. ; )

Caboose: [neither rules out the possibility that their ribs aren't one solid mass of bone.]
Actually, I have a rebuttal for both this and the foot thing, but I�m going to save it for a later post, this is long enough as is.

Alex: for all that I liked the idea that gargoyle shad a third set of chambers to their heart, I�ve actually hated the idea that they had a triple-heart-beat. And I�ve only heard reference to that in one, maybe two fics. It�s actually one of the reasons I want to figure out the anatomy- so that details like that can be written accurately, at least in my own ficverse.

Vash : [I can think of ways (sometimes farfetched) to explain practically everything else about gargoyle physiology]
Ooo�like what?

And since I sense this topic winding down some�at least, not picking up�I�ll toss out my last few things together. (And I�d really appreciate responses to these, since I�ve started applying it to my studio work)

Appendixes: Do Gargies have them or not? What species besides humans have them, anyway?

Wings: the �fingers� are too flexible for bone (save for gargoyles with a specialized design, like Kythera.) so is it possible that they are made of cartilage? If a whole shark�s skeleton is made of cartilage, its likely strong enough to work�but would it not for other reasons?

And if the heart and lungs are both larger in comparison to a human, the rib cage needs to be larger...are the ribs the same size? lighter, heavier; fewer of them?

please feedback on this, its important. well, important to me... ; )
Lynati
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 09:26:05 PM
IP: 66.141.254.171

>>>On a gargoyles note, this is for Spike. Did you name any of the hatchlings in that group picture (aside form the trio) for dark ages, this one included? And is that little red headed one related to Demona? She looks a lot like her but i don't know how all the ages would pin out with the breeding seasons and all that. Just wondered.>>>

Annie>> Hmmm.... it's been a while since I drew that. None of them had names but I did sort of rationalize that some of the hatchlings would have had some of the same parents as the rookery before them, hence Demona's red-headed little sister. The blonde girl garg with the horns was supposed look a bit like Asrial, and the little blonde boy garg in the front row is my son Ryan garged up. *L*

Spike
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 08:54:30 PM
IP: 209.30.17.203

Caboose: I suppose you're right. I was merely saying that the flag didn't start out that way - I agree that in the last 50 years or so it has taken on quite the racist meaning. I guess one of the main things I was trying to get across (now that I look, I didn't do too great of a job... meh, I'm doing a few other things here) is that the Civil War wasn't as clean cut, good vs. bad as most people claim. Anyway, yeah, I agree.
Tharos - [r_u_ready3@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 07:27:36 PM
IP: 69.40.141.188

O kay, someone's spamming the GFA again. :(
Leo
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 07:07:38 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Annie: When you "lurk" around a comment room, you read what everybody else says but don't ever say anything yourself. To "de-lurk" means you actually join in on the conversations.

Tharos: While the Civil War was about state's rights, the only reason the South seceded was because they held slaves and wanted to keep them. It looked like the Fed would decide whether or not they could keep their slaves without any input from the South if Lincoln was elected. After Lincoln won, the South tried pulling out of the Union. Lincoln understood that this question would keep rearing its ugly head unless slavery was ended, hence the Emancipation Proclimation, which didn't actually go into effect in the South until the war's end. And yes, I know, the freed slaves weren't really very much freer, but it was the first step on the long road that took them from slaves to where their descendants are today.

I have to agree with DPH that the Confederate battle flag is an emblem of the bad old days...especially when it's often seen flying in old photos of Klan rallies.
Caboose - [caboose@wctc.net]
WI, USA
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 07:06:59 PM
IP: 198.150.93.3

Red-haired hatchling... you know? You have a point. But then it is possible for them to have sibs, and this just opened up a whole new train of thought for me. Does Goliath's rookery have sibs? Er, more specifically, do the Dark Ages people have sibs marked out for them?

De-lurking is the opposite of lurking. You're lurking if you just come here and read stuff and never really say anything. De-lurking is finally coming out of the shadows to where we can see you and saying something, which you guys have done.
Dezi
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 07:04:12 PM
IP: 68.58.158.101

One more thing, I forgot to ask, what does delurked mean?
Annie
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 06:51:44 PM
IP: 216.190.39.218

On a gargoyles note, this is for Spike. Did you name any of the hatchlings in that group picture (aside form the trio) for dark ages, this one included? And is that little red headed one related to Demona? She looks a lot like her but i don't know how all the ages would pin out with the breeding seasons and all that. Just wondered.
Annie
ID
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 06:50:03 PM
IP: 216.190.39.218

One of the newbs dropping back in - I have to start throwing in my two cents sometime.

DPH: <<I'm 110% against ending racism - even though I'm a Southern, if I see a confederate flag, I don't see Southern pride, I see potential racism. By default, anyone I see waving a confederate flag I view as a potential racist.>>
I'm the most anti-racist person I know, but I don't view the Confederate flag as a racist symbol. It's turning into one because morons fly it THINKING it means racism, sadly... its historical value's quickly diminishing. Slavery wasn't even a main issue in the war. Lincoln made it appear that way with the Emancipation Proclamation (which didn't "free the slaves" in the sense most people think it did), so Britain didn't join the south. Smart guy.

<<Good news: There will *NOT* be a Democratic candidate from the state of Arkansas running for President.>>
Ha! Nice.
Tharos - [r_u_ready3@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 06:11:27 PM
IP: 69.40.141.188

Lurking? Yes, for about 2 years I've been lurking around here.
Lain, so you mean you're not friendly? That's ok, while I do have strong oppinions about cirtain things, this format is way too inconvenient for typing up a ton of stuff, mostly because I love my edit buttons, which those silly MSN comunity sites lack. -_-;
But I think I'll just continue to lurk for now.
Yes precious, we shall lurk, like that weird fish my dad once had. o.O
One question though, um, does TGS need a proof-reader?
Aria (The Insane) Nightshadow
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 06:04:01 PM
IP: 216.113.210.55

Greetings;

Mooncat: You might want to be careful with those. They have a much higher simple sugar content than regular potatoes. As a result, they will burn to a crisp WAY before the regular potatoes would.

Bud-Clare: <Anyone ever been to New Zealand? I'm planning to take a vacation there> I went years ago. It was a beautiful place to visit. If you enjoy backpacking, I highly recommend it. The cities really didn't have much to offer, and the food was passable at best. The local restaurants are very lamb-centric, with a smattering of seafood thrown in as well. At one point, we were craving some North American chain food and went into a Pizza Hut. It was the worst pizza I have ever had in my life.

As to accommodation, it's all about the bed and breakfast. Although the chain restaurants are consistent in their service, they just can't compare with staying with a local family.

Yggdrasil - [eng050599@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 05:05:02 PM
IP: 66.185.84.203

"i watch t.v. on comcast cable"!
yes... i have been drinkin even though it's 2 in the afternoon... hey, it's 5 o clock sumwhere!
JacKaL
IraQWednesday, February 11, 2004 02:15:40 PM
IP: 64.12.96.45

:: peeks in ::

kathy > <<The only way to make sure you know your food is safe to a reasonable certainty is to grow it yourself>> - And even that's no guarantee unless you've done a full battery of tests on the soil, know exactly what's in your water, keep close tabs on what's floating around in the air, and thuroughly investigate the pedigree of any seed or livestock you obtain upon starting out.

DPH > I'm sure from the context you either meant to type "I'm 110% in favor of ending racism" or "I'm 100% against racism."

Mooncat > Check your e-mail. Wanted your input on something, and I never can catch you on IM anymore. :)

Comcast / Disney > Just what we need, another mega-merger.

:: heads off in search of lunch ::

"There was a bit of an embarrasing moment the other night [on 'Meet the Press']. President Bush was asked if he had ever been A.W.O.L., and he replied 'No, no, I'm on Earthlink.'" - Jay Leno
Patrick
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:26:25 PM
IP: 12.109.97.109

<< Kaioto -- You brought up the N word *^_^*, I win the debate! *does the kitty victory dance* >>

Come on now, Mooncat, extrapolation from Godwin's Law isn't as simple as that? ;-)

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

Since I was, indeed, aware of Godwin's Law and decided that if it ended the threat, I'd be fine with that. That puts me in clear violation of Quirk's Exception. :-)

Beyond that, Godwin's Law can only be used as justification of declaring victory in a thread if the word "Nazi" is being used to begin a comparison between the parties or issues debated. Referring to Nazis in a pure historical context without impunging any party does not automatically result in this.

If a question calls for an example of a Facist regime, referring to the Nazis does not kill the thread. Associating someone to the Nazis is what does that.

I was tempted to refer to Stalinist Russian in this case, only I don't get to use as cool a phrase as "Seizing the Reichstag." I blame "Call of Duty" for my uncontrolable need to interject "seizing the Reichstag" into any and all conversations possible. Planting a flag on top of the Riechstag at the end of WWII has to have been one of the best videogaming experiences of my long career as a gamer - even if it was the Soviet Flag and that kind of skeeves me.

Kaioto - [kaioto@yahoo.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:28:33 AM
IP: 208.204.155.241

Hey, NEWS! Comcast is trying to buy Disney!
Fire Storm
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 09:42:02 AM
IP: 65.114.91.3

DPH:<<I'm 110% against ending racism - even though I'm a Southern, if I see a confederate flag, I don't see Southern pride, I see potential racism. By default, anyone I see waving a confederate flag I view as a potential racist.>>

*is confused* :(
Leo
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 06:42:01 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

kathy>> <<The only way to make sure you know your food is safe to a reasonable certainty is to grow it yourself>> yep. this is why i do my best not to eat meat unless ive killed it myself (or, to a lesser degree, know the person who has). i dont get the chance to hunt/kill/raise animals much so... i dont really eat meat much either ;)

caboose>> <> you smell. we were being nice and everything! :P <<don't you think we could wait a few days before getting into another heated argument?>> heck no! if we do that, it will just fester and be worse in the long run ;)

kai>> im surprised it took you this long to show up... do you just lurk and only comment on juicy stuff or do you have some sort of early-warning "cr controversy" alarm system rigged?

annie>> <<Gosh that's funny, and It makes me feel better that it's crossed somebody else's mind as well>> what, that im an idiot? oh yes, im sure thats crossed MANY peoples minds, not just yours ;) <<You do make it sound a lot more interesting than what I was origionally thinking>> to tell the truth... i really wasnt that interested in "bad guys" from the start. i thought the idea was really kinda dorky, to be honest :P then i sorta took a more in-depth look at it and we started playing around with a few things... i think our mucking will be for the better (but then i could just be biased...) <<Also, thanks for recognizing the newbies>> no prob, we like newbies :) <<he "inner circle" here is really great from what I've seen so far>> well, if you can get into it, im sure ;) ... though, i guess theres actually more than one "inner circle" here so... you have more chances ;) <<But is there anyone in here from the western half of the country?>> uuuh, i dont know. josh was from cali, but he doenst post much anymore. im from canada, but currently in texas, so that doesnt count ;)

gside>> <<If they've been lurking for any decent amount of time, there's no need lying>> aww cmon! i was just trying to pretend like we were friendly!

kjay>> <<Can we now go back to talking about stuff that's related to the name of this room?>> uuuh, you got any suggestions? i think the "gargoyle anatomy" is going to run out soon. if you can think of something better to talk about, im sure wed all be for it :)

question>> <<They should just have another comment room for political comments and debate with little or no moderation though it'll probably end up in three weeks with discussions on whether Asians are aliens from outer space or why we should ship the poor and prisonfolk off to Antarctica>> yes, but if we did that, past experience tells me that this room would soon become very, very boring.

andrea>> <<How do such discussions ever get started (and I'm not sure I want to know the answer)>> i dont really remember. possibly it had something to do with greg ws revelation that lexington was gay? then kinda morphed into an "is it ok for gargoyles to be gay, does that make sense?" and then from there into a "well, does being gay at all make any sense"? there might have been a step before that but... i dont remember. <<but I for one am getting sick of all such debates here lately...I respect your views and all, but This CR isn't really the best place for such arguments if you ask me...>> again, feel free to cough up an alternative interesting topic for discussion. :)

mooncat>> even if the debate is "officially" over, i would like an answer to the question i posed to you in the wee hours of tuesday that got kinda run over when kai showed up. you have my email, dont you, in case you want to respond not in the CR?

dph>> <<thanks for keeping me up too late>> no prob :) it was an interesting discussion though, was it not? (we were debating religion on IM and NOT in the CR... happy everyone?)

revel>> <<Here we have a nice, inteligent political and personal debate on world issues that face our countries today and all I can come up with is a picture of a girl in a guys lap with her legs around his neck>> there are worse things...

bud clare>> <<Tight-knit? Two days ago, we were trying to kill each other... ;)>> yes, but in a tight-knit kinda way ;) <<Is it? That's silly>> yes, it sure is. <<Is that some kind of weird canadian thing?>> yes. oka cheese is made on the oka first nations reservation. it is a hard, pale orangeish-yellow cheese that is very sharp, and therefore very yummy. <<<<Anyone ever been to New Zealand? I'm planning to take a vacation there>> *drools*>> i had a friend who was from new zealand who was at my university on an exchange. we took her to see the first LOTR movie when it came out, and it really sucked because she kept leaning over and saying "oh hey! ive been there!" :P

in other news: i can now draw again, huzzah! i drew a musically-inspired pic of two BG characters, involving a sexy smooch, a desk and a (very detailed) 40s&w imi jericho 941, woohoo! next, ill have to try writing and see if thats come back to me, too. if nothing else, this debate (and caboose in private, yay caboose) has yoinked me out of the depths of the quasi-suicidal depression i have been in for the past several weeks - lets hear it for controversy! :D

oh hey, i guess i should sleep...

lain
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 05:37:12 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

Ok, what gives?

From Yahoo News headlines, under strange news:

1)Frenchwoman Marries Her Dead Boyfriend

2)Man Fined $10,000 for Going to Church

3)Gen. Schoomaker Receives Own Death Notice

* * * * * **

When I was in high school, I had a 26 on the ACT. I knew a female black classmate who did better than me. She had a guarantee of free tutition because of ACT score AND her race. Also, when I was a high school senior, I attended a ceremony for those people who received scholarships. I was surprised to learn of my classmates won a scholarships that was for hispanics.

Annie - Unless things have changed within the past ten years, if a black student and a white student get the same ACT score, the black student will be eligible for more scholarships.

I'm 110% against ending racism - even though I'm a Southern, if I see a confederate flag, I don't see Southern pride, I see potential racism. By default, anyone I see waving a confederate flag I view as a potential racist.

But I would like to know when preferential treatment should end. The only kind of preferential treatment I believe in is helping lower income families - regardless of race - send kids to college. Preferential treatment breeds racism in the people who can't get in.

Good news: There will *NOT* be a Democratic candidate from the state of Arkansas running for President.

Kaito - <Would you rather have an unfair system, or anarchy?> Definitely, the unfair system, but I have ideas on how to make things "more fair". I believe the system could *potentially* be more fair if a certain level of education was required in order to vote. Before every 2 year election, you would have to get a 100% score on a test to ensure that you have good understanding of the values each party stands for. When you register to vote, you have to pass a test showing a person has basic math skills, the person has a basic understanding of the economy. In order to vote for any candidate, you have to be able to name something the candidate promises to do. (Basically, only educated and informed people could vote)

Mooncat - <And on less controversial subjects, *ooohhh* just made french fries from scratch.> Did any of the hot oil get on you? If not, you missed some of the fun. Why not make a sweet potatoe pie?

hmm. there's just too much for me to say right now and I really need to hit the sack. Oh well.

Lain - thanks for keeping me up too late.
DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 03:24:33 AM
IP: 204.94.193.17

Kaioto -- You brought up the N word *^_^*, I win the debate! *does the kitty victory dance* -- Though I did like your ending summation.

Kjay -- the original subject of Lexington being gay was related to the TGS in that canon and neo/psuedo canon (Ask Greg info that wasn't shown on screen) may affect TGS characterization and/or plotlines.

And on less controversial subjects, *ooohhh* just made french fries from scratch. Since I had hot oil in the fry daddy I used that nifty thingy that slices a potato into fries then I fried them *^_^* I think I'll try sweet potatos tomorrow, and sprinkle them with a little cinnamon and brown sugar... or try a light dusting of powdered sugar. *contemplates*

sleepy now...
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 02:15:44 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Question - That's not a bad suggestion.

That being said:

There IS a site dedicated to such topics. It's called aviewon.com (clicky my name for it). Most people there (I think) are from customerssuck.com (both sites are run by the same dude), but They won't mind a few new faces. The forum is specifically designed for such heated debates. So, If you want to continue posting your views, I recomment you go there. It won't hurt ot at least look.

Anyway, no, No one paid me to say that, just a friendly suggestion. There are a lot of banner ads on the site, but no popups (and if you do decide to stay, help the owner out and click some banners now and then :) He'll appreciate it). It is moderated as far as I know, but I do not know the extent of it.

Sorry if this post seemed bossy-like (for lack of a better term), but I for one am getting sick of all such debates here lately...I respect your views and all, but This CR isn't really the best place for such arguments if you ask me...

Andrea - [<----Click HERE!]
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 02:14:01 AM
IP: 130.111.154.94

kjay><Can we now go back to talking about stuff that's related to
the name of this room? >

They should just have another comment room for political comments and debate with little or no moderation though it'll probably end up in three weeks with discussions on whether Asians are aliens from outer space or why we should ship the poor and prisonfolk off to Antarctica.
Question
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 01:04:30 AM
IP: 144.92.164.204

*Shakes her head in disbelief and rants as she see's another flame war starting up*
Why do we all have to go at it again? People have been arguing over Gay rights, racism, politcal parties, ect for
decades now and the debate hasn't been solved yet. What makes you people think that the issue will be solved in this comment room?
*Ranting over*
Can we now go back to talking about stuff that's related to
the name of this room?
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:56:14 AM
IP: 172.171.153.97

<< which while it has it's impact, is not the sole deciding force in the enactment and enforcement of law. >>

Actually, at least in the United State of America, it - is - the sole deciding force. The Government derives ALL its authority and power from the Tyranny of the Majority. (aka, "Consent of the Governed")

<< Sometimes it's the position of the lawmakers not quantity of the people who have an opinion in said law that make or break the standing of a law or action. >>

I can think of a couple of systems in which the lawmakers are not appointed via Majority Rules principles: Monarchy, Communism, and Theocracy. In a Democratic, Constitutional Republic like the United States, the lawmakers are the Legislature, who are elected in such a fashion as to Represent the citizenry. They are chosen from the populace by Tyranny of the Majority, and the Legislature conducts votes likewise based on Tyranny of the Majority.

<< The popular or majority opinion does not always carry the day. >>

The majority opinion ALWAYS wins in the long-term. When the lawmakers cross the majority in such a way that the majority feels strongly about, the lawmakers are eventually replaced with lawmakers who comply with the majority. The real issue comes when two expressions of the majority opinion come into conflict.

<< It is when both arguments are weighed against each other according to the series of rules both sides of the subject have agreed to weigh the merits and flaws of their respective positions such as a given judicial system. >>

Incorrect. It does not matter if both sides agree upon the rules, only that the Majority with the power to enforce those rules agrees. A criminal seldom agrees to subject himself to the Criminal Justice System, but it doesn't matter. The entire Judicial System rests upon a series of statutes that can be ammended or completely wiped away by the Tyranny of the Majority. Ultimate authority in such a system derives from Tyranny of the Majority / Consent of the Governed.

The Judicial System of the United States does not exist to weight the merits and flaws of respective positions. The Legislature exists to weigh the merits and flaws of positions and enact statutes accordingly, by Majority Rule, as proxy for the greater body of citizens. The Executive Branch exists to enact those statutes. The Judiciary Branch exists to make sure that those statues are INTERNALLY CONSISTANT in both form (written law) and function (practice).

Again, we get into trouble when two examples of Majority Rule come into logical conflict with one another.

Also, if any of the officers of these branches should fail to faithfully or compitently execute their office (it happens a lot, in all three branches of government), they can and will be replaced - again by the authority ultimately derived from the Tyranny of the Majority.

<< The right for a black person to attend a previously all white college wasn't passed because the majority of people decided that it was correct, but because a minority group of people were able to persistently present their case for that right and have it meet the requirements of the given judicial system to be recognised as a legitimate right. >>

Unfortunately, this point is twice incorrect.

In the case of a private college, that right for a black person to attend was indeed created by a Majority Rule statute - the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which was actually justifed by the "Commerce Clause" of the U.S. Constitution.

In the case of a public college, that right was created by the Legislature by Majoritarian statute - the 14th Ammendment of the Constitution. The legal grounds for Brown vs. the Board of Education wasn't about judges deciding the ethical right or wrong of the situation (which is neither a judge's duty nor privilege in his or her office). Brown vs. the Board of Education was about acknowledging that the 14th Ammendment (Equal Protection under the law) was being violated by the government's rule banning blacks. Since the Majority Rule states that the Constitution must outweigh a simple statute like the one banning blacks from attending such colleges, the Constitution wins - and therefor the Tyranny of the Majority prevails.

<< This was a case not of tyranny of the majority, but the prevailing of a minority within the given system both sides agreed to place thier differences within. >>

Such a system was created by Tyranny of the Majority, and continues to exist only at the consent of said Majority. The fact is that the Majority usually values having such a system more than the ability to simply exercise its whim. The legal system derives ALL its authority, at the root, from the Tyranny of the Majority - nothing more and nothing less.

<< One of the interesting parts of being a citizen of the United States (which not all of us are, but I am so I'm using it as an example) is that a law may be proposed and passed and enforced NOT because it's the majority opinion, but because it meets the challenge of the legal system. >>

The legal system is not independent of the Majority Opinion. It is simply the Majority Opinion that such a legal system should exist. The Majority opinion ultimately dictates how the legal system functions. Don't ascribe anything more to it than th