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Yo, Lain, whenever you get around to reading this, there still is a pest control problem in the tgs cr.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, November 29, 2004 10:06:34 AM
IP: 161.31.67.68

I have a feeling Demona and Crzy Jen could wear each other's bras. Although I believe we have a better chance of making out alive if we touhed Jen's chest instead.

Hmmm so instead of talking about Iraq we are talking about ARaq.
Spacebabie
Monday, November 29, 2004 09:43:26 AM
IP: 12.78.66.31

What I'd *really* like to know is what Demona's response would be when she found out that a number of humans were discussing her measurements. :)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, November 29, 2004 07:21:25 AM
IP: 4.244.12.51

:: skates into Station 8 and does a figure-8 while shaking a Magic 8-Ball ::

Are there 8 days left until the spell is broken and they live again? Magic 8-Ball says: "Without a doubt."

Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!

Sorry I was late. The site was still down at midnight and when you get to be my age, you need to sleep sometimes. :P

:: hands out classic Cokes to everyone ::

I'm reminded of what Richard Pryor once said, as quoted by Eddie Murphy. "Have a Coke and a smile and shut the &$#@ up." ;)

I'm sick of Iraq, too. I second Greg Bishansky's suggestion. And I vote for 36D. ;)

:: trudges off to work ::
Patrick
Monday, November 29, 2004 06:44:48 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Eight days left until the Gargoyles season one DVD arrives on December 7, 2004!

You know the way people on this CR argue for Patrick's countdown, I'm remind of the cola wars between Pepsi and Coke.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Monday, November 29, 2004 06:07:06 AM
IP: 64.112.203.79

Oh no... not Iraq. Every where I turn, it's Iraq this, or Iraq that.

Well, I'm sick of Iraq.

Let's discuss what bra size Demona would wear instead ;)
Greg Bishansky
Monday, November 29, 2004 12:40:08 AM
IP: 162.83.205.235

harvester of eyes>> who said anything about not discussing iraq? bring it on, baby! ;)
lain
Monday, November 29, 2004 12:37:49 AM
IP: 205.250.217.92

Lain: Okay, I promise we won't discuss Iraq anymore.

But seriously, I completely missed this entire thread, since I've been traveling quite a bit this past week. So I just wanted to add my two cents. I have, and that's the end of it.
Harvester of Eyes
Monday, November 29, 2004 12:34:58 AM
IP: 69.175.64.201

This just in . . 11,490 minutes until the DVD comes out.

DPH
AR, USA
Monday, November 29, 2004 12:31:18 AM
IP: 67.14.195.45

192 hours till the DVD comes out...

Oops, I stole Vinnie's theft too ;)
Greg Bishansky
Monday, November 29, 2004 12:20:18 AM
IP: 162.83.205.235

Okay, its only an hour before it's Monday, so I'll go ahead and say it... Eight days until the Gargoyles 1st season DVD comes out!!

Sorry I stole your job Vinnie, ;D.
Krista
Monday, November 29, 2004 12:11:25 AM
IP: 68.116.254.201

Yea, the cr is back up
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, November 29, 2004 12:04:26 AM
IP: 67.14.195.45

Come on guys... do I actually have to spell out a warning about dropping the subject? It's so stupid it hurts my brain.

It's been dealt with, move on, people, for goodness sake!
lain
Sunday, November 28, 2004 10:06:35 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92

Hey, everyone. Sorry I've been absent the last few days. My grandmother turned 80, and we had a party for her over the weekend. Anyway, I thought I'd open with an interesting quote that my colleague, Mr. Kraiglington Bye, is using for his away message:

"The parallels between Iraq and Vietnam have been overblown, because we were in Vietnam for a decade and it cost us 58,000 troops. We've been in Iraq for nineteen months and we're still under 1,200 killed. But there is one sense in which the parallel with Vietnam is valid. The American people were told that to win the Cold War we had to win Vietnam. But we now know that Vietnam was not only a diversion from winning the Cold War but probably delayed our winning it and made it cost more to win. Iraq is a diversion to the war on terror in exactly the same way Vietnam was a diversion to the Cold War."

-Gen. Merrill "Tony" McPeak
Air Force chief of staff, 1990-94

Anyway, it looks like there's a ton of reading to do here. I will check out all the links eventually. But for now, I just have a question for Vinnie: when you were a child, did you enjoy banging your head against the wall until you lost consciousness? Or is your inability to grasp a very simple concept the result of a birth defect or two? Can you at least give Patrick some credit? It might take him a while, but I've never seen him fail to post a countdown. As he once told me, "patience, grasshopper."
Harvester of Eyes
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Sunday, November 28, 2004 05:38:23 PM
IP: 69.175.64.201

Jen > Yes... and I know that's not your phone number, either. ;)
Patrick
Sunday, November 28, 2004 11:15:46 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

<<lain: I never had any intention of winning anything. >>

... or any intention of listening to the admin's warnings either.

Patrick - I know you aren't singing that to me... Cuz you KNOW I hate to be called Jenny. ;)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Sunday, November 28, 2004 10:57:34 AM
IP: 68.65.20.116

Nine days left until the Gargoyles season one DVD arrives on December 7, 2004!

DPH: If you look back on my posts I never said that I was the originator of any countdown! I was just doing my own, unfortunately most of the folks who visit the Gargoyles CR (like yourself) have a trendency to see more into a persons words then is actually there. In other words, I already knew about of Patrick's countdown for years and thought it was a good idea and I see no problem with MY own countdown. Besides there is only eight more posts after today until it's finished.

lain: I never had any intention of winning anything.

Gside: But I'd never call you unimaginative. To me that sounds worse then being petty.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Sunday, November 28, 2004 04:19:01 AM
IP: 64.112.203.173

Vinnie> <<Can't you two growup and stop being so petty>>: I wan't being petty, I was being pedantic. And here I am being pedantic again.

Ed> <<That's just, to use an American phrase, how the cookie crumbles>>: I prefer cookies that bend, not crumble.

Green Baron> <>: Just get rid of the unusual bit, the rest is good enough.

Gunjack> <<Why would you peel a grape?>>: So babies don't choke on the skin. That, and it's the traditional indicator of being waited on hand and foot.
<<And we have no denaro for oranges. It is sad>>: Pretty much. One of you had better get better get citizenship in the other country so one can work while the other tries to get a salaried position.
<>: Scary. Have you had their beaks dulled?
<<Did grant try to break it also?>>: Got me but he didn't make it.
<<Just got the first episode. Good times>>: But you haven't met Chad yet. I'd suggets going for the manga while you wait for new episodes.
<<My country is being CHANGED, manipulated in highly unpleasent ways>>: There's been many political machines over the years, going a good ways back.

Lain> <<if we were to define a "troll" as>>: My first place to look for such a definition would be the Jargon File. In this case, "An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion" Though it does look like the definition has changed a bit over the years.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, November 28, 2004 01:26:52 AM
IP: 68.83.187.89

And now with a musical blast from the past, here's Tommy Tutone...

Jenny I've got your number
I need to make you mine
Jenny don't change your number
8 6 7 - 5 3 0...

9 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:00:16 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

I have to say... this is the absolute most rediculous "flame war" (and I cringe to have to dignify it with those words) I have ever seen.

Vinnie>> Please just stop. You aren't going to win this one. Despite the fact you are now claiming you "started your own countdown" and all that, it is quite obvious - to quote your own countdown debut "Patrick: You snooze you lose!" - that you knew very well you were cramping someone else's style.
Now, don't get me wrong, that isn't against the CR rules, but it is against the rules of *COMMON COURTESY* and your apparent ignorance of same is only serving to aggravate the situation.

If you have something useful to add to any of the discussions currently in progress, please carry on. However, if we were to define a "troll" as "a person who posts messages intended to create controversy or provoke an angry response" then it is my opinion, as an admin, that you are trolling. Drop the subject altogether, including responses to this post.
Consider this your warning.

Everyone else... please refrain from giving him any more rocks to throw.
lain
Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:53:57 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92

You knew, I've been thinking that DisHarmony finally decided to . . take over a living body.

Vinnie - Had you bothered to do research, you would have obviously seen that Patrick had been doing a Gargoyles DVD countdown long before you did and as others have stated, Patrick's been doing Gargoyle related countdowns for years. That makes you the **COPY CAT**, not the originator. Congrats on uniting all of us, from different political viewpoints.

Next time, try to be more original.
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:17:23 PM
IP: 67.14.195.47

Discussed it with a friend that works at Best Buy... she's gonna find a way to make the DVDs stand out on their shelf when they come out. Ain't fandoms great? Anyone else got similar stories from friends in retail?

97 days past since Patrick started his countdown...
Damo
Saturday, November 27, 2004 08:17:05 PM
IP: 12.73.231.187

That'd be well and good, if you actually had started your own countdown. But you didn't, you just stole Patrick's.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really care. i think you're being ridiculous, though, so shamelessly jumping on a badwagon and getting a lot of people riled up when there are quite literally a hundred thousand other things in the universe more important than this. A poorly chosen battle, to say the least.
Whitbourne
Saturday, November 27, 2004 02:58:10 PM
IP: 156.34.90.27

To CR: Well it's a lucky thing that I don't care what people think of me. You're welcome to think whatever you want, but it wont change the facts that your the ones acting like children just because I started my own countdown.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Saturday, November 27, 2004 02:30:50 PM
IP: 64.112.203.79

Gotta try to keep this quick. I'm supposed to actually get things DONE today. ;8D

Gside><<Maybe you should get Lain busy squeezing, then. And maybe she could peel you some grapes while she's at it.>> Why would you peel a grape? And we have no denaro for oranges.
It is sad.
<<Stuffed cabbage, rather on the bland side.>> Ah. Had that two christmases ago, from Lain's step-grandmother, who I believe might also have been from the Old COuntry. Not too good. :P
<<Shouts to those peeps don't work too well. They respond best to more peeps.>> Indeed. They are loyal, though, following me everywhere even when the Chick Magnet is off. I think they have imprinted to my crotch.
<<That only happened recently after FDR didn't follow the unwritten rule.>>
Did grant try to break it also? Can't remember, too lazy to look it up...
<<Ayup, mentioned it, or at least the manga, to Lain a bit back. It's a fun one, dealing with the politics of the afterlife and many swords. I'm currently rooting for Chad.>>
Just got the first episode. Good times...

Green Baron><>
Would never have guessed. ; ) ...I would have, but I didn't have the time. The Libertarian also looked pretty good, and both Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean might have been passable... But I don't want them to take my guns, dangit!

<<BTW, I am in Camp Humphreys, Korea for teh enxt 44 dyas at least. No stop loss, but they could recall me and if they do I'll go and try to stay alive.>>
Term's almost up? Good luck, then. Korea as cold and prostitute-ridden as I've always heard?

<<Well CBC is definietly better than PBS, but I find that kind of fondness for a public station a touch disturbing.>>
*Shrugs* ...When you have my views on the corperate/political system, "public funded" starts to sound a whole lot more like "objective" than "privately owned". We get the CBC for the morning headlines. For most news, we stick with www.whatreallyhappened.com; pretty good clearing-house for all the juicy stuff. For the specifics, we got de Blogs.

<<Now we have Atkins Diet rejects gaining popularity as they attack us, though I still regard them as gangsters and not minutemen or revolutionaries.>>

I think they're both, actually. From what I understand, Al Sadr is a pretty evil dude... But he's made himself into the Iraqi George Washington because we've been worse. Makes me sick, it does.

<<BFD!!!! If we're wrong we're wrong. We're just as wrong with that backing than without it.>>

I'd be hoping that we'd stop being wrong. The international backing would be to reassure the Iraqis, and to keep us honest. It's harder to cover your wrongdoing when there's other people to see it.

<>
Sure you have. We live though. And I think we even get to call you names back, so it's a fair trade. ; )

Ed><<I'm not entirely sure what you're so upset about.>> Massive, systemic, interlocking corruption. My government sliding toward imperial fascism. Tyranny. War Crimes and criminal war? Stuff like that. Frankly, I feel like I'm living in late 1930s Germany, and everyone's telling me how great Der Furher is. After reading up on a few of the more neglected parts of recent US history (the causes for and actions taken during the first gulf war, domestic policies and actions during the clinton years, etc), I believe that I've gotten a picture of how the american political system really works, and it scares the hell out of me.

<<It sounds a bit like you're just upset that in a democracy sometimes people you don't like win.

Not quite. I'm upset that in many highly important ways, our democratic system is collapsing or has already completely died. To me, Bush and Kerry are only one part in a much larger problem: America is controlling its people, not the other way around.

<<If you were going to unite and rule, you'd have a fascist government that goes around brainwashing people. Of course, you could argue that case if you liked, but people are either being brainwashed behind one cause or divided between many. You can't have it both ways.>>

Actually, I'm worried that it IS being had both ways, right now. We have a bitterly divided election between two candidates. Supporters of each candidate think that their man is a saint and the other man a devil, and that no relation could possibly exist between them. This belief is fostered by massive amounts of propaganda on both sides, which does a lot to disguise the fact that underneath the superficial issues, the candidates are IDENTICAL, and serve the exact same group of powerful interests. The same interests also control the press which dessiminates the propaganda and shapes public opinion to its own ends.

Call it "soft fascism". No one's being shot or "disappeared", but that doesn't make it any less scary. My country is being CHANGED, manipulated in highly unpleasent ways, and I don't like it.

<<These issues are showing up divisions, sure, but America isn't particularly divided.>>

I can only speak from personal experience... But from that personal experience, we HATE each other. American politics has become very, VERY ugly, much worse (I believe) than it has been previously. Politics is becomming a form of warfare, and I think we're about ready to firebomb Dresden.

<<51% of your countrymen endorsed Bush. Over half the voters. Most leaders of the world would kill for that level of public support, and a few probably do.>>

The problem is in how that majority was constructed. There's a culture war going on in America, and I believe the politicians have discovered that they can exploit it to advance themselves. The worse the culture war gets, the better the politicians do, and so they fan the flames. This is not healthy in any way, nor is the fact that the elites have been routinely using the culture war to hide their own extremely serious wrongdoing.

<<You could try to push for a multi-party system, but the more parties you get, the more it's up to the political elites you so loathe to decide how to organise themselves, and power is just taken further away from the electorate.>>

A good point, but more viable parties would at least make it more difficult to exploit the two-way culture split. It wouldn't change too much, but it might help the current situation a bit.

<<But really, there's no point blaming the system. The system isn't biased against you, the people who are currently in power aren't some kind of anomaly. That's just, to use an American phrase, how the cookie crumbles.>>

What we are seeing is not some kind of Anomoly; I think that it is a deliberate construction. What is going on in American politics did not just "happen". It was, I believe, done deliberately, with malice aforthought.

Okay, out for now. Peace, people. Greg, Crzy, you two gotta quit beating up on the mentally handicapped. It's bullyish, even if they are peeing in the lemonade pitcher.
Gunjack "Persnickety Percival" Valentine
Saturday, November 27, 2004 01:58:49 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92

Whitbourne> Protest on your break. Bush isn't worth cutting classes over. This Hour has 22 minutes should have a field day with him visiting.

Personally I find him a major weenie for not going to Ottawa. Reagan did so and even had a pretty good retort to Svend Robinson's heckling. I would love it if Bush spoke and made some remarks about bastards, while looking at Carolyn Parrish and winking, but he's a weenie (and Kerry's inability to defeate him shows what a sorry sack of yankee shit Johnny is) and I'm gald I have never voted for him.

Now if Bill Graham comes to the US save me some eggs for him, and I'll be certain to offer Jack Layton a twinkie as he wants them banned :)

HoE> Actually, I am a bit hawkish, but more in the lines of Christopher Hitchens and Andrew Sullivan, both superb iconoclasts, as well as Mike Totten and Roger Simon, and of course the Instapundit. I also like Mark Steyn who is more right-wing, but also funny and a vast improvement from the likes of Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, and Mike Savage.

I probably woudl disgaee with a lot of Ihath's views, but she's honest and personable, and whether I agree or not, her site is always a delight to visit. She is not in the ME, but she is an Iraqi who grew up in Kuwait and her husband is a Palestinian with Israeli citizenship and a College Professor.

Lain gave you some good links, but for the otehr side there is also:

http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/

Actually reading all four blogs would cover a lot of perspective or confuse you :)

Zayed of Healing Iraq also offers links for many Middle Eastern sites, including Saudi Arabian, Egyptian, Libyan, as well as Iraqi and Iranian. He mentioned Ihath on his blog which led me to her site.

I basically have hawkish views in line with the liberal hawkishness (which is odd as I am generally conservative), and share Gunjack's view of what we should be doing. I still cannot justify maintaining the staus quo there which projected Sadaam and hsi sons ruling Iraq for teh next 50 years.

I do respect anti-war positions held by folks like Gunjack, Lain, Marc Cooper, Ihath, Whtbourne, and Greg X, but not those of Galloway, Chirac, Annan, or Noam "I love Pol Pot" Chomsky.

I also criticize Bush for doing nothing further in 91. We'd be biting the big one no doubt but better bite then than now or later. Clinton just bombed them when he felt like it, but it was popular.

I don't get the Catholic thing, since I thought it was all about guilt.

Gunjack> <> I voted for Harry Browne in 2000 and Mike Badnarik this time. I thoughtyou'd have voted for teh washed up, senile, crackpot activist who should go back to the sixties and stay there (I'm referring to Nader, btw).

BTW, I am in Camp Humphreys, Korea for teh enxt 44 dyas at least. No stop loss, but they could recall me and if they do I'll go and try to stay alive.

<<As we know now, Iraq had no WMD.>> So the whole containment was a farce.

<<CBC up here is pretty sweet, but other than that, I stick to the Indys or the single-issue people for stuff I wanna know about. The internet is truly a wonderous thing.>>

Well CBC is definietly better than PBS, but I find that kind of fondness for a public station a touch disturbing.

I myself stick to Instapundit, Andrew Sullivan, Damian penny, and Tech Central Station, and my blogs, though I try to get soem diversification of views.

<<The Iraqis would like a paying job, period. Last I heard, unemployment was somewhere in the area of 30-40% over there, and had been pretty much since the occupation. Meanwhile, americans are being flown in on our dime to be, in effect, the world's highest-payed illegal immigrant workforce.>> This is where we agree. I would rather employ the Iraqis for the sake of spreading world capitalism and Commerce.

Now we have Atkins Diet rejects gaining popularity as tehy attack us, though I still regard them as gangsters and not minutemen or revolutionaries.

<<Then again, I've never studied the french resistance in depth.>> Paul Berman's Terror and Liberalism describes the split in France's Socialist Party then with the hawkish side led by PM Blum and the anti-war side allaying with Petain's "far-right" Vichy Govt.

Personally I wonder how many Vichies joined the Underground after Patton rolled through. It's also a pity Truman didn't make that slimeball Daladier give up Vietnam then and there....Ho Chi Minh was quoting Jefferson and ready to be our firend, but we let them keep it and then govern part of Germany, a nation that invaded them three times in 70 years.

and of course allaying with Stalin was a good prelude to dirty dealings, though really all this started in WWI. We should have been neutral or with the Kaiser (as a Kaiser beats a Fuhrer any day)

HoE> <<We get more oil from Canada than we do from Iraq. >> Maybe we can offer Canada New England in exchange for Alberta....I wonder how Bostonians would feel about having the Queen as their Head of State....I would prefer a Mongolian Khan as a sovereign, personally.

Gunjack> <<America is PROFOUNDLY divided, and keeping it that way is how the people running this country stay in power.>> Well, Singapore is always lovely and New Zealand beats the US in capitalism according to both the Fraser and CATO Institutes...now a CATO style indy I can get behind. Of course Hong Kong still leads the wya in capitalism showing China knwos not to screw up a good thing..good thing Cahirman Mao is rotting in Hell right now or he might ahve made the greatest jewel of Southeast Asia take a giant leap forward. Now if only China would recognize Taiwan, and free Inner Mongolia, Tibet, and Xiangjang. While we're at it, Lain's dad can be yoru best friend, Israel and Palestine can set aside their differences and see who can make the most money in tourism (jihad on prices perhaps), and Mongolia can become a world power again.

<> I think Texas's Ron Paul is one such figure and maybe Wisonsin's Russ Feingold, who seems pretty honorable whether I agree with him or not.

The rest are just unelectable.

<<Vote Nader, just to see if you can help him get his party established.>> Dude, what party!! The washed up creepy-staring old fart got rejected by the Green Party. The Libertarians are the best bet, but too mnay Americans have tehri hands out asking what Big Daddy Government can do for them, and the GOP has sunk to a party of big Government and entitlements too..the Democrats are even less desirable to me especially with Pelosi as their Hosue Leader....Singapore starts sounding betetr and better :)

<<get some real international backing>> BFD!!!! If we're wrong we're wrong. We're just as wrong with that backing than without it.

<<Don't let the Baron hear you say that. He's a papist through and through, I wot.>> While I'll be Catholci as long as JPII is Pope, I don't have that much devotion these days. I still find religion to have its uses, but I don't feel that much devotion and rtaher disliked the fire that I had, making me a nasty little zealot in those days. I doubt all the Ayn Rand books were too helpful fo rmy spirituality either ;)

<<We drove them all away for inventing lovers that didn't exist or threatening our lives or making the newbies cry. There, there, I miss them too... >> Well, if the invention was a sweetheart, I ave no porbem with her, and I do miss some fo the old pizzazz. Of course I am also a timid sort who fears I have offended you at times, and my cat does love to get Gabe's goat :)

<<Don't mind me, I'm just a boob.>> Well you do have nice ones to play with. I have less than two months for Canuck boobie fun and Newfie loving, though :)

Ed> I'm more of a liberal plutocrat than a supporter of Demcoracy, myself, and my politics fall under the mantle fo urban conservative which espeouses the best fo blue and red America while eschewing the nasty gimmie programs, union support, and social conservativism (though I have splits on that as I support gay marriage but not divorce, and I want to abolish the Eighth Ammendment).

While Bush won 51%, he still lost when you cosndier what a worthless opponent he had. Reagan slaughtered Mondale and Nixon beat McGovern harder than Afghan refugees beating up Robert Fisk. Bush Senior did better against Dukakis, so Bush should not be too proud. He narrowly defeated an effete snob and a Senator who is less reliable.

and as for John Kerry, he lost to Bush, and at an even lower margin than Al Gore, a born loser who killed Howard Dean's campaign by endorsing him. I won't argue with all the insults about Bush except for the ones by Kucinich supporters (a scary breed of subhuman), but it says plenty that Kerry failed to defeat this dummie.

Vinnie> Chill out. There are ways you can actually make friends here, but I fear my advice may be as useful as giving Michael Moore a copy of the Atkins Diet.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Camp Humphreys, Korea
Saturday, November 27, 2004 12:00:35 PM
IP: 221.163.146.27

Hey Vinnie? ... planning on going to The Gathering this year? >:)

... this could be fun guys.
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:54:01 AM
IP: 68.65.20.116

Bah... how dare you tell me to be mature. You should all grow up.

Oh wait... I'm not Vinnie ;)

See what I mean about the witty assholes? Vinnie just repeats the same thing over and over.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:17:09 AM
IP: 162.83.205.235

...
ignacio
Saturday, November 27, 2004 09:34:24 AM
IP: 200.45.235.18

Vinnie: Um, there's this thing call turning five you might want to look into...

Gunjack: I'm not entirely sure what you're so upset about. It sounds a bit like you're just upset that in a democracy sometimes people you don't like win.

Of course politicians divide and rule. That's the whole point of a democratic process, where most votes will cancel each other out. If you were going to unite and rule, you'd have a fascist government that goes around brainwashing people. Of course, you could argue that case if you liked, but people are either being brainwashed behind one cause or divided between many. You can't have it both ways.

As Churchill put it, democracy is "the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." And with good reason. The theory of democracy is that the majority rules. But the majority never can rule overall. Opinions are too diverse. As a leader, you're always going to get a large number of people -- probably a majority of people -- who disagree with your decisions, and generally for a number of different reasons: you're going too far, you're not going far enough etc. Now, people might support the decisions because they're the best thing available, but on issues that are most divisive (wars, religion etc.) people become less willing to compromise because the stakes are so high.

These issues are showing up divisions, sure, but America isn't particularly divided. No more than it has been before, no more than many democracies are around the world. Sure, it's evident at the present time, but there's still a consensus. 51% of your countrymen endorsed Bush. Over half the voters. Most leaders of the world would kill for that level of public support, and a few probably do. Blair doesn't have that kind of support. John Howard doesn't. It's incredibly rare in world democracies that a single platform should get that kind of democratic endorsement in a poll where there are actually choices. There's no big conspiracy here. You had a poll and a person you don't like won it.

You could try to push for a multi-party system, but the more parties you get, the more it's up to the political elites you so loathe to decide how to organise themselves, and power is just taken further away from the electorate.

But really, there's no point blaming the system. The system isn't biased against you, the people who are currently in power aren't some kind of anomaly. That's just, to use an American phrase, how the cookie crumbles.
Ed
Cambridge, England
Saturday, November 27, 2004 09:17:50 AM
IP: 131.111.236.130

Vinnie, couldn't you at least change the words?

"Hey, everybody! The "Gargoyles" Season One DVD comes out in T-minus ten days!"

Posting the same thing that Patrick posted, especially after he's been doing it for months now, make you look kind of silly.
Whitbourne
Saturday, November 27, 2004 07:21:22 AM
IP: 142.177.154.114

I know I've already asked the question but I couldn't come and see the answers. The question is : How to get the TimeDancer Theme (Future Tense Mix) ? When I download it, I can't unzip it (said the file is corrupt).
Kyp - [azerty083@hotmail.com]
Douai, France
Saturday, November 27, 2004 06:27:08 AM
IP: 82.252.71.96

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson and Gside: Can't you two growup and stop being so petty.

Ten days left until Gargoyles season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004! You're not going to stop my countdown Patrick.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Saturday, November 27, 2004 04:37:04 AM
IP: 64.112.202.183

Greg> <<where are all the intelligent and witty assholes we used to have in here? Where I ask, WHERE?>>: Either got bored and left or railroaded out.

Barracuda> <<where's Josh?>>: In Berkley doing post grad work.

Vinnie> <<That should be "meaninglessness">>: No, I don't think an adverb works there.

Gunjack> <>: Maybe you should get Lain busy squeezing, then. And maybe she could peel you some grapes while she's at it.
<<Eh?>>: Stuffed cabbage, rather on the bland side.
<<It's true. I'd like to give a shout out to my peeps>>: Shouts to those peeps don't work too well. They respond best to more peeps.
<>: That only happened recently after FDR didn't follow the unwritten rule.
<<Or you could ignore it, go back to sleep, and love Big Brother in all his glory>>: I like to sleep, and if it'll get me broadband...
<<Anyone heard of an anime called "bleach"?>>: Ayup, mentioned it, or at least the manga, to Lain a bit back. It's a fun one, dealing with the politics of the afterlife and many swords. I'm currently rooting for Chad.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Saturday, November 27, 2004 12:42:05 AM
IP: 68.83.187.89

:: runs in wearing a cape and tights ::

Holy Lords a-Leaping, Batman! There are 10 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Saturday, November 27, 2004 12:00:16 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

That should be "meaninglessness".
- Vinnie

Why yes, Vinnie... you are meaningless. ::snickers:: Talk about a major cry for attention. What a pathetic troll. LOL!!
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Friday, November 26, 2004 09:23:06 PM
IP: 68.65.20.116

Vinnie Re: "I'll continue my own countdown!!"

*copy-pastes post from Station8*

It's okay to have *YOUR OWN* countdown.

Don't copy Patrick's "x days left until the spell is broken and they live again!" word for word.

*end copy-paste*

Leo
Friday, November 26, 2004 04:54:39 PM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Uh, I probably should have mentioned when I stopped talking to Harvester and started responding to DPH. Don't mind me, I'm just a boob.
V
Friday, November 26, 2004 03:49:39 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92

yeah, yesterday was pretty sweet, all around. Life is good, when you're not leaking from the face-holes.

Greg><<WHERE?????????????>>

We drove them all away for inventing lovers that didn't exist or threatening our lives or making the newbies cry. There, there, I miss them too...

Gside><<Or maybe drink some orange juice.>> I miss the succulent juice of the citrus fruit. I crave its sweet nectar. << Galumpkies? Eh.>> Eh? <<You have a chick magnet?>> It's true. I'd like to give a shout out to my peeps...
<<The only reason we've got term limits at the top here is because the first guy stopped after two, so almost everyone else did too.>>
Actually, I think it was when the parties started worrying about the other sides' presidents staying in too long and decided to cap it.

Patrick - you mean me? << The more apt analogy would be that China invades the U.S., and mercenaries from Korea and Japan who don't like the Chineses sneak into the U.S. for an opportunity to lurk in the shadows and kill a few of their soldiers.>>

Nope. Them there are Iraqis, homes. The US military reeeeaaalllyy doesn't like to talk about it, and so they keep using terms like "foriegn militants" and "insurgency"... And to be fair, there are probably quite a few foriegners who showed up for the all-you-can-shoot buffet. All the available evidence, though, points to the main resistence in Iraq being comprised of and led by Iraqis. Al Sadr certianly ain't a "foriegn militant", and neither is the population of Fallujah...

The Iraqis are fighting us. We pissed them off big time and long-term, and they're tired of waiting for us to stop. So now they're shooting. That's a gross oversimplification of what's happening, but it's basicly accurate given the available evidence. This isn't something being inflicted on the vast, US-loving majority of the Iraqis.this is a large-scale, local, popular movement, no matter how much herr Rumsfield tries to deny it.

Harvester of Eyes><>

I was going to vote for Ralph, as a support for alternate-party canidates, but I got too busy in the move to actually cast a ballot. Pity.

<<There are never hard feelings. What do you think I am, Catholic?>> *Grins* Don't let the Baron hear you say that. He's a papist through and through, I wot. <> I8 won't disagree, but which tapes? o.O

<<But seriously, if we do pull out, and some other group takes power, chances are the people there will want us to come back.>>

I'd aggree that they'll want to be rescued, though whether they'll ever want the US to do the rescuing again is debatable. Still, in that case, whoever goes in might actually do it properly next time instead of playing games with a country's future.

<<We seem to have dug ourselves in too deep. So, how do people feel the situation should be resolved?>>

If the US would stop playing politics, get some real international backing, can the corruption, and actually hold the US Military and its other minions publicly accountable when they screw up and hurt people, Iraq might turn around. That'd be start, at least.

DPH><<Yes, that's a HUGE problem. What exactly can **WE** do to change that situation? Please tell me what any one of us can do about that problem.>>

Wow, D, I don't think I've ever seen you so... Fiesty. I'll take this as a good thing.

<<Is there some kind of organized movement to change that fact and isn't bluntly anti-war or that doesn't want the US out of Iraq **yesterday**.>>

Not that I know of. The Democrats certianly aren't a worthwhile option; they're neck deep in it too. Near as I've been able to tell, there IS no "party" to look to for a quick, neat fix. America is FUBAR; pretty much everyone understands that. What people DON'T get is that America is being polarized, and then the polar opposites played off each other to nullify their political power. We have been, in effect, divided and conquered, and most of America is so busy trying to protect their beliefs from the Others to see that they're getting fed into the meatgrinder.

So to answer your question, I'd say do anything you can to shake yourself loose. Most of what's going on requires massive, interlocking propaganda, so start there. Learn to be skeptical about what you hear. Do some serious research, and be prepared to look places that you'd never think to. Learn to think critically, and challange the BS whenever you see it (which, for me, is every time I look at a newspaper).

Politically, do what you can to splinter the binary political process in America. Vote Nader, just to see if you can help him get his party established. Debate with people, and not the usual single-issue crap. point out things that are going on that everyone wants you to ignore. Be a rebel, dammit. ;8P

Or you could ignore it, go back to sleep, and love Big Brother in all his glory. *shrugs*

<< If the media keeps talking about a "divided America" (regardless of the statement being true or false), eventually a large segment of the population will start to believe that.>>

America is PROFOUNDLY divided, and keeping it that way is how the people running this country stay in power.

<<Disagree. Those who come with an agenda aren't after the power, per se, but about accomplishing whatever he/she believes is "good".>>

I don't think they exist any more. They've probably been hunted to extinction.

<<Just of curiosity, where do you stand on term limits?>> Approve, and the shorter the term, the better. And once they're out, they should be inelligable to meet with the current politicos ever again. 8 P

<<Not a good argument. Power corrupts.>> Money is power, and a corperation is a structure designed to aquire money as quickly as possible. Given that, the corp will ALWAYS find a way to screw someone (usually its employees), because it's cheaper and easier to screw people than to deal fairly. Unions aren't the nicest things, but you darn well need one if you're dealing with a big corp.

That's it for me. Anyone heard of an anime called "bleach"? Just had it reccomended to me by a former minion. Oh, and the Kill Bill Soundtrack is about the coolest thing ever.
Gunjack "Sleepy Delilah" Valentine
Friday, November 26, 2004 03:46:44 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92

Woops, sorry 'bout the empty post. Pop on the keyboard, it's a little touchy. Anyway.

Vinnie - Although you make a good point that it's just a countdown, I can see how Patrick would be pissed. He's been doing this thing since his Gathering countdown ended, which was also pretty huge... then you hop in when there's a few days left. I imagine that'd annoy us all.
Tharos
Friday, November 26, 2004 03:38:15 PM
IP: 67.140.52.82

...
Tharos
Friday, November 26, 2004 03:36:22 PM
IP: 67.140.52.82

That should be "meaninglessness".
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Friday, November 26, 2004 03:08:02 PM
IP: 64.112.202.89

Patrick and Greg Bishansky: You're both acting like children, it's just a countdown! Are your lives really so empty and meanless? I'll continue my own countdown, even if you throw a the world's biggest tantrum.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Friday, November 26, 2004 03:05:51 PM
IP: 64.112.202.89

Yeah, where's Josh? He's my favorite intelligent and witty asshole. He made newbies cry.
The Barracuda
Friday, November 26, 2004 02:35:06 PM
IP: 204.209.150.46

Wait, I take back the part about magnificent dialogue. Vinnie didn't put a comma in there.
Greg Bishansky
Friday, November 26, 2004 11:00:04 AM
IP: 162.83.205.235

"You snooze, you lose.

Wow, what magnificent dialogue. And he once tried to call me a child.

Sigh, where are all the intelligent and witty assholes we used to have in here? Where I ask, WHERE?????????????
Greg Bishansky
Friday, November 26, 2004 10:51:34 AM
IP: 162.83.205.235

Gside > The more apt analogy would be that China invades the U.S., and mercenaries from Korea and Japan who don't like the Chineses sneak into the U.S. for an opportunity to lurk in the shadows and kill a few of their soldiers.

Vinnie > I've been doing countdowns on these boards for longer than you've been around, so I'm only going to ask nicely one more time. Don't bogart. No one likes a copycat.

Count von Count says: Eleven! Eleven days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004! Mwah-ha-ha! :: thunder and lighting ::
Patrick
Friday, November 26, 2004 10:32:20 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

11 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!

Patrick: You snooze you lose! That's all I have to say on the subject.

Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Friday, November 26, 2004 03:30:12 AM
IP: 64.112.202.225

HoE> <how do people feel the situation should be resolved?> There is no easy answer to this question. Idealy, we turn the country back over to the Iraq people as quick as possible then leave. The problem is that since we created the situation we would feel obligated to intervene if another civil war broke out. This is the kind of situation that led to the Vietnam war. If it were up to me, I'd set up a temporary government until the current crisis is under control. then i'd have undercover, native operatives gather and stage another rebellion that is secretly controled by the the U.S. The rebellion would be short, ending in the origional government to surrender and a new government constructed without the interference of the U.S. that way the people wouldn't feel like they were being controled by the U.S.
Some of you might recognise a similar plot in /Star Wars: Attack of the Clones/. not that I'm relating our government to the Empire. I just think good ideas, wherever they show up, shouldn't be wasted. Of course, the planning and implementation of such a plan would have to be monumental to have any chance for success.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. hope everyone had a happy turkey day.

Mecord
Friday, November 26, 2004 02:20:26 AM
IP: 67.40.106.231

Gunjack> <<My immune system SUCKS>>: You just need to excersize it some more. Or maybe drink some orange juice.
<<Sounds like things are sucking over there big time>>: And the food isn't helping much. Perogies? S'allright. Galumpkies? Eh. At least there's kielbasa.
<>: You have a chick magnet?

DPH> <<The basic argument for term limits is a whole bunch of people don't like a certain candidate and they can't find another way to de-elect him/her>>: The only reason we've got term limits at the top here is because the first guy stopped after two, so almost everyone else did too.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Friday, November 26, 2004 01:49:29 AM
IP: 68.83.187.89

Forgive the double post, but I just realized I did not answer your question. I voted for Ralph Nader. This year, I've been working practically non-stop, juggling too many credits during my final semester at school, then after I graduated, I took a month or two to relax before I launched into the workplace to start hoarding money to pay off my loans. Being so busy, I never had time to become informed about where Bush or Kerry stood on things. I only really knew anything about Ralph Nader, and since I agree that corporations shouldn't fund elections, I cast my vote for him.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@aol.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Friday, November 26, 2004 12:22:28 AM
IP: 64.12.116.137

Jacob: I was basing it on what I heard from my dad, who's a very staunch Republican. However, one thing I do know is that we did not go into Iraq for oil. If it was oil we wanted, we should have invaded Saudi Arabia. We get more oil from Canada than we do from Iraq.

GV: There are never hard feelings. What do you think I am, Catholic? But seriously, I can't blame the Iraqi people for bearing some hostility against us. I mean, we brought it on ourselves with those damn tapes. But seriously, if we do pull out, and some other group takes power, chances are the people there will want us to come back. We seem to have dug ourselves in too deep. So, how do people feel the situation should be resolved?

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@aol.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Friday, November 26, 2004 12:15:53 AM
IP: 64.12.116.137

Gunjack - <The Iraqis would like a paying job, period. Last I heard, unemployment was somewhere in the area of 30-40% over there, and had been pretty much since the occupation. Meanwhile, americans are being flown in on our dime to be, in effect, the world's highest-payed illegal immigrant workforce. > Yes, that's a HUGE problem. What exactly can **WE** do to change that situation? Please tell me what any one of us can do about that problem. Is there some kind of organized movement to change that fact and isn't bluntly anti-war or that doesn't want the US out of Iraq **yesterday**. <It's not the media, or rather, not the media alone. But yes, I think that's a possability.> If the media keeps talking about a "divided America" (regardless of the statement being true or false), eventually a large segment of the population will start to believe that. <That leaves... well, pretty much no one.> Disagree. Those who come with an agenda aren't after the power, per se, but about accomplishing whatever he/she believes is "good". The career politician is one who's just after power. Just of curiosity, where do you stand on term limits? The basic argument for term limits is a whole bunch of people don't like a certain candidate and they can't find another way to de-elect him/her. (Name any area where term limits was passed where the voters in favor of term limits did NOT have somebody in mind when they voted to limit terms.) I believe in mandatory 'retirement' for de-elected members of Congress - they can't lobby the federal government for at least 5 years AFTER they are no longer in office.

Gside - <So when the board is replaced they don't start thinking about not treating employees nicely. > Not a good argument. Power corrupts. It especially corrupts poly-tick-ians. Be carefull when seeking to change things for "better", you don't become power hungry (see Christian Coalition for a good example of an organization that's more concerned with acquiring power than doing "good").

Sometime next week, I should be getting a set of used DVDs - G1 TF Season 2 Part 2. All this just to acquire *4* easily episodes. Oh well. I'm spending more money on acquiring something to satisfy the kid in me. I'm looking forward to get the Gargoyles DVD on December 7.

I rented Bionicle 2 on DVD and just watched it today. I liked the 1st Bionicle movie MUCH better. Am I the only one who thinks this way?

**DPH pulls a bomb out of his jacket and throws it at a CR wall and quickly leaves through the opening before the wall self repairs.**
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:24:53 PM
IP: 67.14.195.23

Man, that SUCKED. I just slept for, like, three days straight, and when I wasn't sleeping, I was choking on my own secretions. My immune system SUCKS.

But now I'm back for more.

Gside><<Well, there's unrest int he Ukraine. It always fun to hear about your ancestral home.>>

Ihear Putin just shipped in some Spetznaz, probably to help the crook keep his stealings. Sounds like things are sucking over there big time.

Spacebabie><<That will never happen with me. I always have a pair of emergency pants.>> A cunning ploy. I prefer Cheeps to conceal my indecency.

GB><<Now I have a website you two would like.>> Noted. Will check it out when I get a chance.where are you now, anyway?

Aaron><<I seem to remember the only real effective resistance in Vichy France was carried out by the Corsican Mafia, who weren�t big on extreme law and order types like the Nazis crimping their business, while the Maquis mostly stayed in London running up huge hotel bills and sponging off the Allies, and general population�s only complaint with the Germans seemed to be that they weren�t taking the Jews away as fast as they could be�>> Really? I've never heard this before... Then again, I've never studied the french resistance in depth. Where can I find more about this? Any books you can recommend? And what about De Gaul? Wasn't he in on the resistance somehow? *is running off memory fragments now*
<<We had the former four years ago, the general public just hasn�t caught on yet. Trouble is, they�re the side with all the guns.>> Sez you. Lain and I, at least, are nicely armed. I just need the extractor spring replaced on my 30-06, and we'll be golden. A Harris Bipod would be nice also. A Thundertrap sound supressor would just be icing.
Next time Lain and I hit dallas to visit the folks, we need to have a gargoyles shoot. Revel used to go with us before he shipped off, and I got Gabe to go right before I left. Good times all around. We could make it a tradition... any takers in the area? If you can out-shoot lain, I'll even buy dinner afterwards...

Patrick><<I'm sure there's pleny of Iraqis who would like a good job in construction. I'm also sure most of them don't want to be kidnappped and beheaded on the way to work.>>
The Iraqis would like a paying job, period. Last I heard, unemployment was somewhere in the area of 30-40% over there, and had been pretty much since the occupation. Meanwhile, americans are being flown in on our dime to be, in effect, the world's highest-payed illegal immigrant workforce.

<<You would think the most telling thing to the average Iraqi would be that the insurgents kill as many Iraqi police officers as they do U.S. soldiers and foreign workers.>>

Your numbers are probably skewed low, as quite a few bite it before they even make it into the uniform; the resistance has taken to bombing the waiting lines outside the recruitment office.
Collaboraters always get it the worst. The Occupiers view them as expendable, and the radicals brand them traitors. Not that they have much choice; joining up as a walking target for the iraqi police is pretty much the only paying job available, so people take their chances. Why aren't there any other jobs available? See above.

<<If ever there was a hint to the general populace that these guys really don't care about anything but their own jihad...>>

Pat, they're doing exactly what you'd be doing if China invaded the US next year. They're doing what a local population ALWAYS does when a foreign power invades, occupies, and gives serious offence.

DPH><<Are you sure that the media isn't leading us down the right to where the US will fight another civil war?>> It's not the media, or rather, not the media alone. But yes, I think that's a possability.

<<The status of the economy isn't one of those issues. The biggest issue is automatically opposing all who seek elected office for the sake of acquiring power.>> That leaves... well, pretty much no one.

Harvester of Eyes - It kinda sucks, cause I just met you and now I'm contradicting everything you say. :P Really, I;m a fairly nice guy, I just like Politics. A lot. So anyway, no hard feelings?

<<Sadly, America for the most part devotes very little newscasting to world news. At least, we concentrate more on things like which celebrities are sleeping with each other.>>
Yeah, american news sucks. CBC up here is pretty sweet, but other than that, I stick to the Indys or the single-issue people for stuff I wanna know about. The internet is truly a wonderous thing.

<<Saddam might not have had weapons of Mass Destruction...>>

No evidence of WMD production has ever been found, despite numerous administration promises that their SPECIFIC LOCATIONS were known.

<<...but he was providing a haven for terrorists, people who would likely have committed acts of violence similar to the ones we saw on September 11th.>>

No evidence has ever been found of any link between Saddam's regime and Al Qeada or any of its affiliates, despite numerous assurances by the administration that such links were an absolute fact. Also, links to terrorist groups were only significant to the extent that they might allow a WMD to fall into terrorist hands. As we know now, Iraq had no WMD.

<<And if we pull out now, some radical faction will cease power there.>>
If we continue in our present course, the country will continue to polarize until radical factions are all that remain.

<<Besides, wasn't it the Democrats who criticized Bush in 1991 for not moving onto Baghdad?>>

Yes indeed, and it was the democrats again who backed The Shrub on his sequel tour. The democrats are exactly as guilty. It's funny how everyone was ready to vote for Kerry, when he admitted up front that he wouldn't have done anything different. Puppet on the left, puppet on the right...

Out of curiousity, who'd you vote for? I went for Bush in 2000, and this time sat out in disgust...

Okay, enough for me. Time to Buttle.
G "Infectious Mirth" V
Thursday, November 25, 2004 02:56:26 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92

Yo, Vinnie. Those who muscle in on my territory might wake up one day to find themselves sleepin' wid da fishes. Capice?

I want all of youse to have a Happy Thanksgiving. Or else. ;)

12 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Thursday, November 25, 2004 10:49:42 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Happy Thanksgiving! *drools a bit*
Mecord's Cat
Thursday, November 25, 2004 10:43:32 AM
IP: 67.40.106.231

12 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004! And please buy as many as you can!

Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Thursday, November 25, 2004 04:02:35 AM
IP: 64.112.202.127

Jake: <On your second point, ...> Thank you, Jake. I was just about to address that, but you beat me to it. :)

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Dezi
Thursday, November 25, 2004 01:36:05 AM
IP: 68.57.196.146

Whitbourne>> <>
Um, sure, that would be great.. but I'm not Greg ;)

Harvester of Eyes>> <<It is refreshing to get a perspective from someone who's actually over there>> Actually, if you're referring to the first link, which i read as http://www.ihath.com, .. I believe the Baron stated the writer was in Burnaby, which is near Vancouver, in Canada, not anywhere near the middle east. However, if you are interested in some more middle east perspective, I would suggest checking out
http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/
and
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Yes, they are both in Iraq, not Israel/Palestine but they are actually "over there". I've been reading them and others for.. over a year now, and they usually have something interesting to say that you won't really hear anywhere else. If you're going to read them at all, make sure to read all the archives from the beginning, too.

On your second point, on what do you base your statement that Saddam was harbouring terrorists any more than, say, any other country? Certainly one might claim that this Zarquawi (sp?) character was hiding in Iraq prior to the invasion, but I believe you'll find that records indicate he was hiding in the Kurdish-controlled north of the country, not exactly in Saddam-heartland. There has also never been any evidence presented linking Saddam to Al-Qeada in any convincing manner.
I agree with you that, should Iraq be abandoned by the US at this moment in time, it certainly is a strong possibility that a radical faction might sieze power. However, I think the possibility for something equally as bad, or perhaps worse to happen is even higher if the US remains in Iraq and continues to behave in the manner it is now. I believe the situation MIGHT be still salvagable at this point, but only with a complete overhaul of the current policies now being implimented.

<<Besides, wasn't it the Democrats who criticized Bush in 1991 for not moving onto Baghdad?>>
Yes. And it was the Democrats who voted this time to let him go in. They are just as guilty, and I trust them just about as much as I trust the Republicans. They're all the same - or at least, not on any higher moral ground.
Jacob - [<<-- Riverbend]
Thursday, November 25, 2004 01:16:09 AM
IP: 205.250.217.92

Well, there's unrest int he Ukraine. It always fun to hear about your ancestral home.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:50:27 AM
IP: 68.83.187.89

As I seem to recall, the 'stated' reason President Bush senior didn't go into Iraq was simple:

He wasn't ready to deal with the aftermath of replacing Saddam Hussein.
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:12:57 AM
IP: 67.14.195.23

Green Baron: for some reason, I was unable to open any of the stories, but the first link sounds very interesting. At least, the story behind it is. It is refreshing to get a perspective from someone who's actually over there. Sadly, America for the most part devotes very little newscasting to world news. At least, we concentrate more on things like which celebrities are sleeping with each other.

Bottom line is, Saddam might not have had weapons of Mass Destruction, but he was providing a haven for terrorists, people who would likely have committed acts of violence similar to the ones we saw on September 11th. And if we pull out now, some radical faction will cease power there. Besides, wasn't it the Democrats who criticized Bush in 1991 for not moving onto Baghdad?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@aol.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:06:26 AM
IP: 205.188.116.137

Apparently Bush is coming to Halifax next week and the main protest is just a block from Dalhousie Medical School.

I was gonna cut class and go thow eggs at him, but Greg, if you'd like me to just tell him to pull his zipper up first, I can...:-)
Whitbourne
Wednesday, November 24, 2004 07:28:26 PM
IP: 156.34.84.203

Jacob> Well, it worked for Bill Clinton ;)

and for some reason, heads of state with zipper issues makes me think of Trudeau, from what I've learned of him (and my opinion of him thusfar is close to the feelings you and Whitbourne hold for Bush).

Gunjack and Lain> Now I have a website you two would like.

http://www.ihath.com

She's also in Vancouver (Burnaby, I think), and her essays have changed some of my views about Israel/Palestine in ways you'd like.

Another good one is Marc Cooper http://www.marccooper.com

He's an anti-war liberal from Vegas andI'd like to pay him a visit during Gathering 05. He's a guy with class and one of a small numbe fo bloggers who acknowledges humanity and decency in the other side of the blodgosphere, plus he was recommended by liberal warhawk and world traveler Mike Totten http://www.michaeltotten.com as a sane anti-war blogger (and the partisans accuse Cooper of selling out to the right, because he does not follow a lock step ideological sheepishness).

and here is an article on a recent happening in Belgium by the great Michael Totten.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/112204AA.html

also I regret that I ahve some bad news. I won't be able to take a flight that stops in Seattle, so I'll be in Vancouver later in the year, but not then. I do want to visit Vancouver as well as a number of cities along North America's Pacific Northwest (Seattle, Portland, SanFrancisco).
Green Baron
Wednesday, November 24, 2004 06:48:53 PM
IP: 221.163.157.131

Triskadecaphobes beware... there are 13 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!
Patrick
Wednesday, November 24, 2004 07:36:52 AM
IP: 66.93.14.153

13 days until the Gargoyles DVD comes out. Be there, buy it, buy two if you can, but a dozen would be better.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Wednesday, November 24, 2004 03:26:26 AM
IP: 64.112.202.119

Spacebabie> <<That will never happen with me. I always have a pair of emergency pants>>: Yes, but who will you get to put them on me?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Tuesday, November 23, 2004 11:33:33 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89

Er... Mr. President? Your.. uh.. zipper?
(It was just too good, I can't help it..)
Jacob
Tuesday, November 23, 2004 10:37:49 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92

G-side<<<Maybe I should be pantsless more often, then the world would be a better place.>>> That will never happen with me. I always have a pair of emergency pants.
Spacebabie
Tuesday, November 23, 2004 02:52:58 PM
IP: 12.78.46.131

G-Day, huh? Well, it's good to know I'm not the only one paraphrasing World War II. I've been going around calling December 7th, 2004 "a day which will not live forever in infamy."

So, how about another paraphrasing, this time from General George S. Patton? "Two weeks from now, if you consider yourself a fan of 'Gargoyles,' you'll know what to do."
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@aol.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:51:19 PM
IP: 69.174.28.68

Just two weeks to go until G-Day. There are 14 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!
Patrick
Tuesday, November 23, 2004 06:49:23 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

DPH> <<Why do they need a union if the company is treating employees nicely?>>: So when the board is replaced they don't start thinking about not treating employees nicely.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, November 22, 2004 10:44:38 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89

Just being boring and claiming tenth.
Fire Storm & Lady Mystic
Monday, November 22, 2004 09:58:46 PM
IP: 68.74.9.43

Nine.
Tharos
Monday, November 22, 2004 09:18:32 PM
IP: 67.140.52.82

Ocho.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@aol.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Monday, November 22, 2004 07:51:20 PM
IP: 69.174.28.68

SEVEN!
Dezi
Monday, November 22, 2004 05:26:00 PM
IP: 68.57.196.146

6th.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, November 22, 2004 05:18:41 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89

Fifth then! Rats I hate it when posters sneak up like that.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
USA, Michigan, USA
Monday, November 22, 2004 02:12:45 PM
IP: 64.112.203.27

Four! Ah, another round of golf.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
USA, Michigan, USA
Monday, November 22, 2004 02:11:34 PM
IP: 64.112.203.27

4th!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, November 22, 2004 02:11:30 PM
IP: 161.31.67.53

3rd.
Leo
Monday, November 22, 2004 01:42:58 PM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Little Deuce Coupe!
Spike
Monday, November 22, 2004 01:03:49 PM
IP: 68.93.251.208

Holy crap!
Jacob
Monday, November 22, 2004 01:02:06 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92