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Todd>> <<Good ones, too, both of them (I especially like the portrait of Kappel)>>
Thanks. The Kappel one took me about 6 hours, not counting the part about how I had to start completely over from scratch after something happened with the markers and I ruined the entire thing.. :P
Thanks, tho :)
<<I also spotted the bit about Dr. Dee and the Enochian language>>
She's nuts, I tell you!
Ed>> <<I hope that Lain and Gunjack's involvement doesn't mean that they've given up on getting 'Bad Guys' to us>>
Actually, no, it doesn't. Like GJ said, the experience was HIGHLY useful.
Truth be told, this *is* actually a "Bad Guys" Untold Tale - a teaser, almost. You'll hear from these people again.. ;)
Green Baron>> <<Good cheer to all of you>>
Thankee
Gside>> <<Between whatever bits of text are most appropriate. And if you want to get really fancy, you can put in alt text for people who don't use images>>
... I actually meant, "where do I upload them on the secure site?" I couldn't find the appropriate folder.
Gunjack>> <<Lain and our buddy Thoms are trying to get me drunk>>
We are not! :P
Kathy>> <<Good job, gang! Very nice cliffhanger. :)>>
Oh God, this means you're going to be wanting the SECOND half, doesn't it? >.<
Jacob
Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:53:27 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92
Hey, a new story! I'm currently down in North Carolina with various members of my clan for a few days, and while I'm down here, I'm going to be reading Philip K. Dick's "Time Out of Joint." But I look forward to reading this eventually. Sounds like an interesting concept.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@aol.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:37:29 PM
IP: 66.56.200.154
<<I've some reservations about the idea of an anthology series...>> Lynati's in chrge of UT, so she has final say, but the way I understand it, we're gonna use it to post one-shot stories while we're getting the full seasons ready. Think of it as the TGS easter-egg series, maybe?
<<...and I hope that Lain and Gunjack's involvement doesn't mean that they've given up on getting 'Bad Guys' to us...>> Hee hee hee... No, Bad Guys is still alive and well, though the experience gained by this one-shot has been highly educational. I've really, REALLY been underestimating the ratio between length of outline draft and length of final episode.
See, Hungry Shadows was originally supposed to be a one-part episode. The current 51-page story is what we ended up with AFTER we broke it in half... So we're going to probably have to break up several of the DG first-season stories even more. Result? Longer season.
Gotta go, Lain and our buddy Thoms are trying to get me drunk.
Gunjack "Y'Know, Office Supplies" Valentine
Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:26:53 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92
HoE> <<launches into Hark, the Herald Angels Sing>>: How about a round of Adeste Fideles? I like them in latin.
Niamhgold> <<How goes the life?>>: Not too bad, employed (and am therefore slightly more willing to actually buy anything), still living with the parents (I believe I promised myself I would get out by the next Lent), recovering from a brief fevered illness (and I had to climb in the dark among the fiberglass while I was recovering so I could install a fan). You?
Lain> <<WHERE DO I PUT THE PICTURES!?>>: Between whatever bits of text are most appropriate. And if you want to get really fancy, you can put in alt text for people who don't use images.
Todd> <<There are a few misspellings (such as "isle" for "aisle") that evidently weren't caught during Edits>>: Yeah, yeah, sorry. After the fiberglass, the breaker was off so I wouldn't get electrocuted while wiring.
Lynati> <<who add "e"'s in unamerican places>>: And u's. Can't forget the colour.
Me> Whoops, pressed enter at the wrong time.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, December 26, 2004 10:48:08 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89
...
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ, w
Sunday, December 26, 2004 10:27:02 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89
Greetings to all on this second/third day of Humbug :)
Maybe that could be soemthing..The Twelve Days of Humbug.
On the first day of Humbug my true love sent to me..A Gargoyles DVD!!
On the second day of Humbug, my true love sent to me, two Ayn Rand novels and a Gargoyles DVD. Well, this would be fitting for Karen and I in any case :)
Patrick> I remember what I was like back in 98...an intolernat right-wing religious zealot..granted I was even worse at 16 (I voted for Alan Keyes in 96 if that's any indication). I guess in the last decade, I've doen a lot of evoloving.
I don't know if I would call it a complete swing of the pendulum. I have no hatred for my faith and I am not some barefoot non-denominational fundie in a white robe.
In some ways I am in the same side of the spectrum, only the spectrum isn't a straight line. I just have a lot less faith and I see the former GB as a sanctimonious fanatic.
I'm certain you've changed in the last decade, too.
HoE> I know you're not an atheist (atheists don't regard Christmas as the time of their Saviour's birth, unless they are atheists in the Roman definition...Romans called Christians atheists back when Christianity was a disorganized clusterf*ck..ie pre 4th century and Nicea).
I was just kinda joking there as I thought you were referring to me with yoru commercialized joke, since I made an article praising commerce and all :)
I do wonder how many atheists are in the CR. My beloved Hellcat is one, but she hasn't posted in ages. Imzadi is too, but again a non-poster. I think Greg X is, but he may have a more complex definition.
I guess I can best describe myself as a Capitalist :)
Jacob, Lynati, Gunjack> Thanks for the story. Good cheer to all of you.
DPH> Don't take Greg X too seriously, and I value intellect over family. Maybe I can trade mine in to gain and extar 40 points of IQ..along with a condo, Toyota hybrid and a few hundred grand :)
13 days until I am out of Korea.
24 days until I am with my beloved Karen
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Camp HUmphreys, Korea
Sunday, December 26, 2004 10:10:49 PM
IP: 61.77.43.13
Hey, a new TGS story! I look forward to reading it (reviewing it too, time permitting) later this week. I've some reservations about the idea of an anthology series and I hope that Lain and Gunjack's involvement doesn't mean that they've given up on getting 'Bad Guys' to us, but it's certainly a great Christmas present. Nice one, gang! :)
Ed
London, England
Sunday, December 26, 2004 09:09:33 PM
IP: 213.187.38.229
LYNATI - I also spotted the bit about Dr. Dee and the Enochian language.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, December 26, 2004 07:26:29 PM
IP: 4.245.18.41
Todd: Yep. Did you pick out any of the other literary/RL occult references in it? ; )
Lynati
Sunday, December 26, 2004 06:55:44 PM
IP: 4.185.111.64
Ah, yes, the pictures are there now. Good ones, too, both of them (I especially like the portrait of Kappel).
Incidentally, was the mention of Henquist-Gordon as one of the people at the auction a deliberate reference? What I mean is, a few years ago, I read a short story by Robert Bloch about a horror writer with the name of Ernest Hengist Gordon (whom, incidentally, I suspect to have been a good-natured caricature of H. P. Lovecraft, who was a friend of Bloch's) who made contact with the powers of darkness to help him write his stories (one of which, incidentally, was entitled "Gargoyle").
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, December 26, 2004 06:42:09 PM
IP: 4.245.18.41
Good job, gang! Very nice cliffhanger. :)
kathy
Sunday, December 26, 2004 05:14:05 PM
IP: 66.82.9.32
Hmm. I just checked and everything looks fine, even the pictures load correctly. It seems like part of the tgs website decided to grow links to this section. I gotta feed whatever on the tgs website that added links to the ut section.
Jan - <Congrats on having a peaceful Christmas Day with your family> ty
GXB - <Let me guess, you sold your soul to Satan to get your family to get along.> We were working on a 500 piece jigsaw puzzle. I wouldn't sell my soul. On the other hand, I would consider giving up some intectual capacity for a few things.
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, December 26, 2004 02:37:33 PM
IP: 67.14.195.49
yeeeeah.. i apparently broke that last night while trying to make less work for DPH...
>.<
sorry, man.
Todd>> yeah, though you missed most of the really BIG gaffes that were edited last night in the wee hours of about 4am.. ;)
probably they arose because we only had about 2 hours in which to do edits! we *really* wanted to get the thing out for christmas, and i guess it suffered a wee bit, sorry.
we just went through and (hopefully) fixed everything, including the pictures, if you want to take a gander. That art was an emergency, also - mara's should be coming along in the next few days, too.
lain
Sunday, December 26, 2004 02:27:32 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92
And it's snowing AGAIN. Global warming, my frozen hiney!
215 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
6 days left until New Year's Day... and a price increase for Gathering 2005 pre-registration, so sign up before the end of the year and save!
Patrick
Sunday, December 26, 2004 01:45:58 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45
...but I'm glad you liked it. ; )
Lynati
Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:33:52 AM
IP: 4.185.114.182
Todd: some of those, like that one, may be missed edits; some are simply canadian spellings of things since this fic was primarily written be evil canadians who add "e"'s in unamerican places. ; )
and to be fair, do you know how may blatant mispellings exist still in the rest of the posted stories from TGS gargs season 1, and onward? Not to excuse our faults, but many of those are riddled with typos. One of these days, when we have less writings to do, we're going to have to go through everything and clean all of those fics up.
Lynati
Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:32:31 AM
IP: 4.185.114.182
Merry christmas!
Felice Navida!
I just ordered my garg dvd on futureshop.ca..
How have the numbers been for this anyways?
Damien
Sunday, December 26, 2004 10:58:19 AM
IP: 205.250.244.212
Just took the opportunity to read the first story in the "Untold Tales" series. It's very enjoyable, except for a couple of technical elements:
1. There are a few misspellings (such as "isle" for "aisle") that evidently weren't caught during Edits.
2. Something seems to have gone wrong with the art when the story was uploaded; the places where the illustrations should be are just empty spaces with little red x's in the upper-hand corner.
Apart from this, it makes a good beginning. Thanks to the TGS staff for getting things moving again.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, December 26, 2004 07:54:07 AM
IP: 4.244.12.220
Sweet!
Archwolf
Pittsburgh, PA
Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:54:10 AM
IP: 24.54.134.129
The year is 1921. The place: Paris.
"Hungry Shadows" Part 1.
A TGS Christmas Present.
Contrived and Produced by Gunjack Valentine, Lain, and Lynati.
Enjoy…and Happy Holidays to you all!
lain - [<<-- NEW STORY!!! OMG!!]
Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:53:08 AM
IP: 205.250.217.92
*Shoves open the curtains and enters, clearing her throat noisily to get people's attention*
So, a couple Tuesdays ago, lain pops up on IM wondering if we can release a TGS fic for Christmas. And I says, sure, but which one? We don’t want to release any in the lineup for the upcoming seasons of Bad Guys or Gargoyles until we have a full set ready. And she says, well, we could open the UT archive early and do one of the random ones planned for it. And I say, sure, but the only UT fics that have any work done on them can’t be released until after Gargs Season *5* is out. And she says, well, we could spec out and write up an entirely new one. And I say, well, we’ve got less than three weeks until Christmas, but if you’ve got an idea, I’m up for giving it a shot. Are we seriously thinking about doing this?
And she says…sure.
Lynati
Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:51:57 AM
IP: 4.185.189.221
Merry Christmas!
DPH> Congrats on having a peaceful Christmas Day with your family :)
I didn't realize that ya'll have been hit so hard with the ice/snow in your part of the state (eastern). We had a hard snow for about 2 hours on Thursday, but by afternoon it was gone. It has been bitterly cold all week but today was a balmy 40'ish degrees. (in SW MO) I hate winter and I especially hate the snow. Between November thru March, I regret moving from the deep south. However, I've heard that Galveston has received around 12" of snow!! I can only imagine the horrors of people driving around down there. O_O
Kathy> belated thanks for the info... it's something that we are definitely going to consider when building the new house. I don't want to get stuck with just one source of heat during a blizzard caused outage! We're going to be building in the middle of the woods, so trees will be an easy resource for us!
I hope that Santa was good to everyone this year - he was especially generous to me =)
Jan
Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:14:33 AM
IP: 12.215.182.17
DPH> Let me guess, you sold your soul to Satan to get your family to get along.
Something tells me ol' Lucifer got the short end of the trade ;)
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:08:12 AM
IP: 162.84.162.203
Sorry, but this afternoon I was busy experiencing a Christmas miracle.
I spent the afternoon with my brother, sister-in-law, my dad, and his wife WITHOUT a major argument.
To spend most of the afternoon aroudn my dad without an argument . . is a miracle. It didn't hurt that we were working on a 500 piece jigsaw puzzle that I gave my dad's wife last year.
Oh yea, the snow and ice has me . . stranded at home. Literally I can't drive out of my driveway so I have to rely on others for transport.
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, December 25, 2004 11:06:28 PM
IP: 67.14.195.3
Happy Christmas, Hanukah, Kwanza, Solstice, Agnostica, and Festivus.
Hope you all ate mountains of food and got piles of loot.
:)
Aaron
Saturday, December 25, 2004 10:39:48 PM
IP: 70.243.64.116
Now it really *IS* done. Lynati-kins? We're waaaaaaaiting for you.
Oh, and DPH? Your presence would be appreciated also. WHERE DO I PUT THE PICTURES!?
arg.
soon, my pretties...
Jacob
Saturday, December 25, 2004 09:49:03 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92
Spacebabie: ::hugs:: and good to see you too :) I know I'm not in here often, but mostly because I spent the past few months graduating from college, moving, getting a job and all that jazz. Though it's looking like the next Gathering is becoming more and more of a possibility :)
I'll have to start checking in here more often. Perhaps when I'm at work ;)
Gside: How goes the life?
Anyways, off to complete my Xmas festivities. Take care, all!
Niamhgold
Saturday, December 25, 2004 08:03:15 PM
IP: 69.173.191.88
Happy Holidays!
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Saturday, December 25, 2004 04:10:01 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133
Merry Christmas And A Happy New Year To All!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Saturday, December 25, 2004 01:43:40 PM
IP: 64.112.203.35
Merry Christmas!
kathy
Saturday, December 25, 2004 10:25:15 AM
IP: 66.82.9.16
"Oh come all ye Grateful
Deadheads to the concert.
Oh come Grateful Deadheads and camp in the street.
Bring rolling papers, don't forget your sleeping bags.
Oh come get us some floor seats.
We followed them for four weeks.
Oh come get us some floor seats, to see the Lord.
Come all ye hippies, throwbacks to the '60's.
Paint flowers on your van and don't wash your feet.
Wear your bell-bottoms and your tie-dyed t-shirts.
Oh come let us adore them. We quit our day jobs for them.
Oh come let us adore them. Garcia's the Lord."
Lynati
more spamm!!
Saturday, December 25, 2004 03:34:16 AM
IP: 4.185.102.201
Green Baron: I'm not an atheist either. That holiday greeting was for the entire Comment Room. And I know there's at least one atheist in here. But anyway, I should have been more clear that it was for everyone. So here's another.
[throws back head so that only his mouth is visible]
"MERRY CHRISTMAS, COMMENT ROOM!"
[launches into Hark, the Herald Angels Sing]
Harvester of Eyes
Fredericksburg, VA, Terra
Saturday, December 25, 2004 12:35:55 AM
IP: 69.175.64.201
Merry Christmas!
GB > You know, when I first met you, you were planning to become a Catholic Preist. Talk about your swings to the opposite end of the spectrum.
216 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
7 days left until New Year's Day... and a price increase for Gathering 2005 pre-registration, so sign up before the end of the year and save!
Patrick
Saturday, December 25, 2004 12:26:56 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45
oh god. I think it's done. I mean, it's only one, but its a *finished* one.
what time is it in here anyway?
Lynati
Lands of Mary
Friday, December 24, 2004 11:26:14 PM
IP: 151.200.237.35
Spacebabie> <<I don't think she may be ready for AMGC. She said she was only 13>>: But might as well plant the idea now.
Merry Christmas, and I hope you are healthier than I.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Friday, December 24, 2004 11:05:26 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89
Progress Report: Computron is hard at work re-engineering my hologram.
I think I've finally settled out how to keep the technobots/Computron mounted in my computer room.
He's ready for battle.
I can't wait for the Chicken Cordon Bleu I'm having tomorrow for lunch.
*quietly leaves cr, heading for the land of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
DPH
AR, USA
Friday, December 24, 2004 10:51:59 PM
IP: 67.14.195.13
Greetings;
A little humor for this festive season. (Used without Permission)
"Twas the night before Christmas and Santa's a wreck...
How to live in a world that's politically correct?
His workers no longer would answer to "Elves" --
"Vertically challenged" they were calling themselves.
And labor conditions at the north pole
Were alleged by the union to stifle the soul.
Four reindeer had vanished, without much propriety,
Released to the wilds by the Humane Society.
And equal employment had made it quite clear
That Santa had better not use just reindeer.
So Dancer and Donner, Comet and Cupid,
Were replaced by 4 pigs, and you know that looked stupid!
The runners had been removed from his sleigh;
The ruts were termed dangerous by the E.P.A.
And people had started to call the cops
When they heard sled noises on their rooftops.
Second-hand smoke from his pipe had his workers quite frightened,
His fur trimmed red suit was called "unenlightened."
And to show you the strangeness of life's ebbs and flows,
Rudolph was suing over unauthorized use of his nose
And had gone on Geraldo, in front of the nation,
Demanding millions in overdue compensation.
So, half the reindeer were gone; and his wife,
Who suddenly said she'd had enough of this life,
Joined a self-help group, packed, and left in a whiz,
Demanding from now on her title was "Ms."
And as for the gifts, why, he'd ne'er had a notion
That making a choice could cause so much commotion.
Nothing of leather, nothing of fur,
Which meant nothing for him. And nothing for her.
Nothing that might be construed to pollute,
Nothing to aim, nothing to shoot.
Nothing that clamored or made lots of noise,
Nothing for just girls, nor just for the boys.
Nothing that claimed to be gender specific,
Nothing that's warlike or non-pacific.
No candy or sweets (they were bad for the teeth)
Nothing that seemed to embellish a truth.
And fairy tales, while not yet forbidden,
Were like Ken and Barbie - better off hidden.
For they raised the hackles of those psychological
Who claimed the only good gift was one ecological.
No baseball, no football - someone could get hurt!
Besides, playing sports exposed kids to dirt.
Dolls were said to be sexist, and should be passe;
And Nintendo would rot your entire brain away.
So Santa just stood there, disheveled, perplexed;
He just could not figure out what to do next.
He tried to be merry, tried to be gay,
But you've got to be careful with that word today.
His sack was quite empty, limp to the ground;
Nothing fully acceptable was to be found.
Something special was needed, a gift that he might
Give to all without angering the left or the right.
A gift that would satisfy, with no indecision,
Each group of people, every religion;
Every ethnicity, every hue,
Everyone, everywhere - even you.
So here is that gift, it's price beyond worth...
"May you and your loved ones enjoy peace on earth."
Enjoy the holiday, my plants need me.
Yggdrasil - [eng050599@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Friday, December 24, 2004 10:41:47 PM
IP: 24.141.19.247
I was juts reading Tech Central Station and this bit of holdiay cheer occured. It's about a Christmas Carol, but much lighter and funnier than my last article. Unless you have lofty principles that interfere with yoru abilityt to enjoy life in any way, you'll enjoy this, especially when you catch a reference...I ownder how us CR goers would write the tale :)
I was really hoping they'd make a Noam Chomsky version of A Christmas Carol or at least Michael Moore (who would remark how thin the ghost of Christmas Present is) or at the very least some bloggers, like Andrew Sullivan and the Instapundit :)
Green Baron - [<--click for a good laugh]
Friday, December 24, 2004 10:31:21 PM
IP: 61.77.43.11
Starsinger> ::mother-son smooches:: I am glad to se eyou back in and posting and glad that my humbugs got a response from you. I hope to see you more often.
Gunjack> I was hoping to get some moral outrage form Gabe, but he is wise to me ;)
<On the plus side, at least he doesn't try to claim that his arguements synch with anything approaching conventional ethics or christianity.> I think both authors are Objectivist atheists (my favorite kind of atheist philosophy) and are not Christian. As for ethics, they oppose the use of force and advocate exchange of goods and services. There is something highly ethical to me about two people exchanging stuff that makes each person's life better.
<<First, since they've obviously tossed out altruism as the basis for morality/ethics, what do they intend to replace it with?>> Well as a person who has lived under the heel of a mother is a Christian Marxist ideally (yet a practcial conservative thankfully), I have had my fill of altruism and emotion thanks to her, so good riddance to that.
The main ethic is similar to the basic tenets of the wiccan faith..do as you wish as long as no one is harmed..of course what cosntitutes harm is always debatable and can be a heavily gray area (self-defense, abortion, even consensual sex can hurt someone), but I digress. I'd say that it involves pursuing one's individual desires (whetehr it is to be a Mother Teresa or an Imzadi) as long as you do not take from others by force. Force should only be used to defend your rights to life, liberty, and property, never to interfere with someone else's. Obviously that's an ideal, but philosophies and ethics are about ideals, and if you can defend yoruself then its harder for some collectivist looter to take your stuff by force; I know you agree with that much.
<<Is there a way to keep this from devolving into survival of the fittest?>> As Objectivism condemns the use of force to take what is unearned (and that applies to Govt looters especially), that is not survival of the fittest, but survival of the wisest.
<<Value is determined soley by demand, and there is no upper limit, yes?>> There isn't, but how is that a bad thing? Should a Government decide to interfere with that and undoubtedly make something worse...and if that raises prices too high, someone will find a way to lower prices on some object so the masses can enjoy that product and make the innovator richer. On the flip side the market can lower the value and continue to lower the price of an object...like computers (what was a thousand dollars today will be considerably less in six months) or an artifcial institution like a bunch of "compassioante" looters could artificially raise prices (agirculture comes to mind) and cause more misery while protecting an obsolete family farm or a mom and pop store whose time has come. If America abolished all agricultural subsidies and tarriffs, 100 million people throughout the world would be lifted out of poverty. I think its disgusting that some inbred catfish farmer in MIssissippi can urge their theiving reps to put restrictions on Vietnamese catfish to protect their uncompetitive trade and 12 kids. I'd rather buy Vietnamese catfish especially if it is cheaper than the stuff from next door and achieve through commerce what war failed to do.
<<That is a very bad mistake to make, as any homeless punk with a cheap .38 could teach them.>> Not if the potential victim had a few gusn of his/her own and showed the chemically enhanced bum what happens when you take by force what is not yours.
<<Scrooge a little too hard, and the Cratchitts might just decide that this sucks, and maybe they should ditch this whole wage-slave thing and just kill you and take your stuff.>> I would start a fund for you to produce that version of a Christmas Carol just to see what you'd do :)
But seriously, Scrooge could be armed and could defend himself from Cratchitt the looter. Besides, no one forced Bob to have all those kids or to marry young, though that was the norm back then, but social pressure is no excuse. I'm getting a vasectomy (hopefully it won't be too expensive and Karen would not appreciate it if I treid the home version with a pair of scissors), though social pressure would expect me to have a few vermin (kids) and get soem crappy one-story home in the suburbs with a yard or buy a ga sguzzling car, while I prefer a small condo or apt in the city and public transportation.
<<For a man who seems incapable of understanding that simple human tendency to rant about Illogical Metaphysics is actually rather amusing.>> I think he just discounts it, and this is my main issue with Objectivism is that it doesn't answer how to deal with those issues (and that I believe in some higher pwer, though I don't consdier myself much of a Christian anymore), but a philosophy tends to be idealistic and to agree with anything 100% is bad and fanatical. You can email the authros and give them those questions by all means.
<<You read this stuff? We's got to have us a talk sometime, boyo...>> I love Capitalism Magazine. As for a talk, well you won't convert me, but I'd love to meet with you and discuss as long as it's kept civil.
Now this article should make you feel better
http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4054
And if this is the most appaling stuff you ever read, you need to get out more :) I imagine soem parts of your philosophy would evoke the same feelings in me, but that shouldn't matter too much, we are not third worlders who get into a fight over it.
HoE> You should hear my beloevd Karen go on about Dickens, then.
<<In the industrial age, a small handful of people were given power over many.>> That will always be the case, only some band of looters redictribute the wealth so everyone has an equal amount, but I bet that in a year's time, the wealth will return to those who got looted.
The Industrial Revolution is not pleasant to us, but it sure beats the old feudal system and whil I love feudal ranks and titles, times were worse before the Industrial Revolution. There never was an Agrarian Paradise. It is a bucolic fantasy.
<<A factory manager could force a child of five to work twenty hours a day for mere pennies, and get away with it.>> I think that is better than what a manor lord could do, but I share your sentiment. I do think such a concept would be good for dealing with juvenille delinquents though :)
<<Really, the only way for someone to better themself back in that era was to go to college.>> Well, waiting until later to get married and having a smaller family work, too. Bob lived in London, not on a farm. No one forced him to have five kids and I think he was under 40 with five kids, too. Also, it takes ingenuity and the ability to fulfill a need. Wayne Carnegie was a poor Scottish immigrant and he did extremely well. Cornelius Vanderbilt was barely able to read and write, but he had an idea and fulfilled a need people had.
Now, I am not a full objectivist, and I believe in community service and some means of helping the poor, though mainly in ways that help them improve their lives.
<<You pay your workers less than what they need to survive so you can hoard more for yourself. But how much do you yourself need?">> That's the wron outlook. Pay is not about need, but about earning. What the rich industrialist should think is...if the workers are better paid and have better standards of living, they can consume more and this benefits us.
Of course, Dickens was also a friend of Marx and convinced Marx that the Revolution would occur in the UK. Thankfully that never occured (in spite of later having Clement Atlee as PM) as the creation of more wealth benefited all, except for those who did nothing to improve their lot.
Instead of looking at how to redistribute wealth, it is better to see how to create more. The inductrialists were far wealthier than the feudal lords during the age of the Gargoyles and the workers in the 19th century were also much better off than the serfs in the tenth century.
While I like the title of Baron I know I enjoy a standard of living my Baron ancestors would have regarded as magical.
<<if you're an atheist: Happy Over-Commercialized Gift Day!>> I am not an atheist (I belive in a higher power and I will probably still get married in a Catholic Church..might as well get soem mileage out of all the zeal I used to put into my faith), but I'll second that.
In any event this got some response, which is good. Now if only we could get Imzadi and SJ back in here :)
And over in Korea it is Christmas so Bah Humbug!! :) or as they say in South Park, Merry F*cking Christmas :D
My bitterness is done with a mix of dry humour as that is the best kind of humour.
Spacebabie> Jib jab you say. I'm off :)
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Camp Humphreys, Korea
Friday, December 24, 2004 10:07:56 PM
IP: 61.77.43.11
I take it back. The other one is much worse. You read this stuff? We's got to have us a talk sometime, boyo...
Gunjack "Susseration" Valentine
Friday, December 24, 2004 01:28:48 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92
Green Baron><<and here is one on my man, Scrooge :)>>
That is, without doubt, the most appaling thing I've ever read. On the plus side, at least he doesn't try to claim that his arguements synch with anything approaching conventional ethics or christianity.
Two questions.
First, since they've obviously tossed out altruism as the basis for morality/ethics, what do they intend to replace it with? Is there some central standard, or does each person define it for themselves? And if the latter, how does anyone have the right to judge anyone else? Is there a way to keep this from devolving into survival of the fittest?
Second, a more general question to "free market capitalism" in general. As I understand it, FMC assumes that anything that can be controlled by man must be part of the economic system, and thus must have a value. Value is determined soley by demand, and there is no upper limit, yes?
...It seems these sheep have made the mistake of assuming that the economic system is the bedrock of reality. That is a very bad mistake to make, as any homeless punk with a cheap .38 could teach them.
Money is a social construction. Economic systems are social constructions. Scrooge a little too hard, and the Cratchitts might just decide that this sucks, and maybe they should ditch this whole wage-slave thing and just kill you and take your stuff. For a man who seems incapable of understanding that simple human tendency to rant about Illogical Metaphysics is actually rather amusing.
And now, back to the Christmas Present we've been working on non-stop for over two weeks now.
Gunjack "Stranglehold" Valentine
Friday, December 24, 2004 01:23:29 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92
Green Baron: If you look at Dickens's work as a whole, he didn't look too kindly upon the Industrial Revolution. But then, how could he? This was back before unions and labor laws as we know them. A factory manager could force a child of five to work twenty hours a day for mere pennies, and get away with it. Simple fact of our speces: power corrupts. In the industrial age, a small handful of people were given power over many. I think Dickens was trying to say: "as long as you have this power, why not use it for good? You pay your workers less than what they need to survive so you can hoard more for yourself. But how much do you yourself need?"
Also, I don't see how the writer of that essay can criticize Bob Cratchit the way he did. Really, the only way for someone to better themself back in that era was to go to college. And going to college was more difficult back then. If you were born into a lower class, then you honestly had no chance whatsoever. Your only option was to go work in a factory. The essay was interesting, but I don't think the writer examined the time period as closely as he should have.
Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Kwazy Kwanzaa, or if you're an atheist: Happy Over-Commercialized Gift Day! And to all a good bite...er, night.
Harvester of Eyes
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Friday, December 24, 2004 11:07:38 AM
IP: 69.175.64.201
Starsinger sneaks in and seeing all the stocking by the chimney, puts several dark lumpy things in each. What can you say, when it 10 degrees outside coal does have it's uses.
Thomas, behave. I'm the house cynic. Starsinger steals a kiss from the Green Baron under the mutant misiletoe. I missed my chance for some real stuff at my Arts and Crafts Renfaire. They ususally have some that's grown on cedar and has small red berries. Last years will have to do.
Greetings all. I have returned. Thanks for missing me. I'm seriously thinking Vegas.
Later world. Keep warm.
Thomas behave. Things aren't that bad, we get you back soon.
Starsinger
Whose idea of a good time is the knitting in front of the fireplace with the cats and the DVD player. I just don't have the fireplace, but the space heater works.
Starsinger
Friday, December 24, 2004 10:26:25 AM
IP: 209.240.205.61
Todd>>> It would depend on the mistletoe.
Gregx>>>Yeah, that is a good way of thinking about it. I'd spend money to watch The Journey (Get fangirlish over Castaway)) Then probably MST the rest.
Niahmgold>>> Huggles Hey, Great to see you.
Krista>>> Good luck.
Gside>>>I don't think she may be ready for AMGC. She said she was only 13.
Green Baron>>> You need to go watch the Nasty santa Cartoons at JibJab.
Merry Christmas everyone
:::Stares up at the mistletoe:::
Wait a second last night there was one. When I started my post there was two...and now there is a four?
Spacebabie
Friday, December 24, 2004 09:59:40 AM
IP: 69.161.157.101
"Don't smoke the mistletoe. It may look good, but that stuff is harsh, yo." - A holiday P.S.A. from Snoop Dogg, as seen on "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno"
217 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
1 day left until Christmas.
8 days left until New Year's Day... and a price increase for Gathering 2005 pre-registration, so sign up before the end of the year and save!
Patrick
Friday, December 24, 2004 08:56:23 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45
Well, another Bah Hummbug is almost upon us. The holdiay has never been a favorite and now that I have lost almsot all sense of spirituality, it means even less.
So Bah Humbug!!! ;)
In some good news, I am out of Korea in 16 days.
Now to be more contrarian, I offer a link by a brilliant wirter an dpsychologist.
http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4053
and here is one on my man, Scrooge :)
http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4045
Enjoy, while I kiss a gold coin ;)
Green Baron
Friday, December 24, 2004 04:30:21 AM
IP: 61.77.43.10
And let's not forget, in the spirit of the season, the mutant mistletoe Nicolai :)
Niamhgold
Friday, December 24, 2004 12:58:46 AM
IP: 69.104.63.72
Merry Christmas to all! And to all my fellows who shall be stuck with me at the airports tomorrow. Who's going to be at O'Hare?
Niamhgold
California
Friday, December 24, 2004 12:57:42 AM
IP: 69.104.63.72
I think most of the voice actors would return if we get new material. They all enjoyed working on it.
Keith would definetly come back, Thom Adcox, and all the rest. We almost got to hear Marina as Demona again... but Disney canned the Team Atlantis series. But if you come to the Gathering, you can hear her.
Greg Bishansky
Friday, December 24, 2004 12:25:10 AM
IP: 162.84.162.203
I forgot to say: as far as voice is concerned, the one actor they aboslutely must get back is Keith David. Though I'd imagine a lot of the main actors (Jeff Bennett, Bill Faggerbakke, Thom Adcox, Ed Asner, Frank Welker, Jonathon Frakes, Marina Sirtis) are probably very available.
Harvester of Eyes
Friday, December 24, 2004 12:03:02 AM
IP: 69.175.64.201
Gside: To my knowledge, human history has gone through the following periods (at least, these are the main ones): stone, bronze, iron (later steel), and then I think atomic. I'm not sure what we're in now. Information age, maybe?
Bishansky: <So ultimatly, as much as I don't trust Disney, I do trust Greg.> I second that. Of course, if anything new gets made, Disney might not be able to get all the voice actors. Well, they definitely won't get Paul Winfield or Roddy McDowell (Rest in Peace, gents). I'm hesitant to include Ed Gilbert in that list because if "Shadows of the Past" is any indication, the captain found closure, so I don't know if we'll ever see him again.
DPH: <You do realize that Christianity took over the existing winter solstice celebrations, right?> That would explain why Christmas is recognized as a few days after the solstice. That also explains the Pagan aspects of the holiday's roots, as well as the reason Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate it. But then, they never have any fun anyway.
I'm off until December 31st! Time to catch up on sleep.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@aol.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:54:53 PM
IP: 69.175.64.201
DPH> <<That would be copper and bronze, right?>>: I think so, but there's probably some others. When did brass come in?
<<we're supposed to access our grades online, but I can't seem to get to the system>>: That may not say much about the school.
Patrick> <<The phrase "cross that bridge when we come to it" comes to mind>>: And before that why not see if we can't get a summon in Kingdom Hearts?
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:05:38 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89
Dammit, wrong icon. But quite snowy, don't ya think?
Dezi
Thursday, December 23, 2004 09:19:21 PM
IP: 68.57.196.146
Woot! This god-forsaken place just got a foot of snow dumped on it! I'm sooooo happy! That, and in the chaos at my tv station, I got to do live-in-the-newsroom shots at our CBS affiliate (my little Spanish station's big sister), due to lack of photogs! AWESOME!!!
Dezi
blah, Indianapolis
Thursday, December 23, 2004 09:18:48 PM
IP: 68.57.196.146
*looks up at the mistletoe*
And I thought that Corbie hated Christmas because of the whole "peace on Earth and good-will towards men" (definitely not the sort of thing that would appeal to a discord-goddess like her). Just when you think that you know someone.... :)
And, yes, I'd better get working on a letter to Disney to thank them for the DVD as soon as my printer (which has been on the blink for a while) gets repaired or replaced.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, December 23, 2004 07:34:10 PM
IP: 4.244.18.160
TODD> "Of course, that leads to a big dilemma. We then have to find a way of buying lots of copies of the Goliath Chronicles DVDs to show Disney that we're behind "Gargoyles" all the way, while keeping the Disney execs from coming to the conclusion that we liked the direction that "Gargoyles" took in the Goliath Chronicles."
Like Patrick said, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Personally, I'm looking at it as buying "The Journey" and just "The Journey"... yeah, spending $20 for one episode, but it's for a good cause.
And as for TGC itself. Well, if we get new product it will be under Greg Weisman. He knows what he wants, he knows what we want. I somehow doubt any Disney exec there is as familiar with the material as he or any of us are. So if Greg has to say TGC is canon he'll say it, but his actions when writing the new material will probably say different.
In fact, here are his own words on the subject from an interview...
"I think if we're not totally talking blue sky, and we're trying to apply some hypothetical reality to this, and the DVD sells really, really well—which I'm hoping, and it's not a forlorn hope, I think it will, I can't be sure, but I hope so—I don't think the next step would be a series. To be honest, the next step will be the second season. My hope is that in the sum total of those two DVDs, the sales will be enough that what I would hope that would encourage them to do is a direct-to-video movie based on the show. More or less picking up where the second season left off. If I've got to pretend that it includes the third season I will, because I want to do it that badly. But I don't think there's anyone at Disney who knows the show as well as we do, and they're not going to notice if I ignore the third season."
So ultimatly, as much as I don't trust Disney, I do trust Greg.
http://www.fpsmagazine.com/feature/041214weisman.shtml
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, December 23, 2004 01:05:05 PM
IP: 162.84.162.203
:::Beams into CR:::
It's almost Christmas and we did not get around to this part.
:::Sets up Mistletoe:::
There we go, all is well
:::Beams out:::
An Evil Space Elf - [spacebabie2hotmail.com]
Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:29:14 PM
IP: 69.161.157.101
It's a shame, but we have to hold Disney's hand all the way through this. So write your thank you note and ASK for Season 2. Let's worry about TGC later. Click the link for the Buena Vista address. Thanks!
kathy
Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:12:43 PM
IP: 66.82.9.28
Todd > The phrase "cross that bridge when we come to it" comes to mind. I think the focus of any letters to Disney for right now should be on thanking them for Season One, and asking them for Season Two. Season Two is likely to consist of at least two or three seperate DVD sets, so we've got a ways to go before we have to worry about how to react to TGC.
Patrick
Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:02:31 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153
PATRICK - Of course, that leads to a big dilemma. We then have to find a way of buying lots of copies of the Goliath Chronicles DVDs to show Disney that we're behind "Gargoyles" all the way, while keeping the Disney execs from coming to the conclusion that we liked the direction that "Gargoyles" took in the Goliath Chronicles. (Let's face it, it wouldn't be worth it getting new episodes of "Gargoyles" if they were on the level of the Goliath Chronicles episodes.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:21:12 AM
IP: 198.209.226.130
<< I know we hate this hypothetical, but what happens if Disney releases Season 2, we buy the heck out of it, and Disney releases Season 3 and it doesn't sell. >>
Then we'll all own copies of the two seasons we really care to watch over and over, but any hope of getting any new "Gargoyles" material will be dead. Greg Weisman was pretty clear on this point. Whatever they choose to release to "test the waters" is going to have to sell like gangbusters, and that includes TGC.
218 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
2 days left until Christmas.
9 days left until New Year's Day... and a price increase for Gathering 2005 pre-registration, so sign up before the end of the year and save!
P.S. - Free snow available! Have a white Christmas, or build an army of snowmen. 100% pure frozen H2O. You must pick up. BYOS, or rent my shovel for $5/hour.
Patrick
Cleveland, OH
Thursday, December 23, 2004 08:26:00 AM
IP: 66.93.14.153
*dph's hologram materializes in the cr, and frantically starts looking around for a new system to download onto. he yells "You'll never take me alive".*
Sorry about that, my hologram didn't take the news too well about being upgraded. I guess he didn't like the implication that he wasn't complete.
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow. It snowed today in Arkansas and I gained my 1st experience driving in it. I went to town to go to the Post Office to pick up . . .
*suddenly two jets blow holes allowing them to fly into the cr, a mobile drill digs a hole into the cr and is followed by a car and two wheeled (not motorcycle) vehicle. Suddenly, these vehicles transform into robots and start heading towards dph's hologram. One of them is heard saying "Come'on technobots, we have a job to do.".*
Yea, 1 toy or was 5 toys that I picked up? Both statements are correct, considering I picked up a certain G1 transformer combiner named "Computron". and Guess who got the contract to 'upgrade' my hologram. Yep, Computron got the contract, having nearly infinite computational capacities, Computron should have no trouble deciphering the massive amount of code making up my hologram.
*"Merge to form Computron". With that said, dph's hologram is scooped up and politely removed from the cr.*
Good, time to take him offline for a while . . at least until next year.
Now back to real business. I found seemingly infinite supply of energy (Walt Disney spinning in his grave) and I'm sending a team of engineers over to figure out the best way to harness that energy. Any ideas?
Gside - <And you still have a couple alloys to go through before iron.> That would be copper and bronze, right?
Just to prove how stupid my college is, we're supposed to access our grades online, but I can't seem to get to the system.
HoE - <Thank God our Savior was born 2000 years ago, giving me a day to sleep in.> You do realize that Christianity took over the existing winter solstice celebrations, right? No way to know for sure exactly when Jesus was born. It can be narrowed down to a specific time frame, but not a specific month or date.
I know we hate this hypothetical, but what happens if Disney releases Season 2, we buy the heck out of it, and Disney releases Season 3 and it doesn't sell.
dph & dph's hologram
AR, USA
Thursday, December 23, 2004 01:18:16 AM
IP: 67.14.195.15
Gside: Dammit. I've been working too hard lately. Thank God our Savior was born 2000 years ago, giving me a day to sleep in. But first, I have another day of work.
Harvester of Eyes
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Wednesday, December 22, 2004 11:54:56 PM
IP: 69.175.64.201
Krista> <<I'm entering in MGC's monthly art contest for the first time. Any pointers?>>: Go for the AMGC. The world can always use more porn.
HoE> <<they probably had not yet learned to refine steel to the point where it became deadly to fay>>: Iron before steel. And you still have a couple alloys to go through before iron.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:55:42 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89
Gside: I'm going by the Jethro Tull song "Ring Out, Solstice Bells." For some ancient peoples, the Solstice was a very important day. I listened to the song twice yesterday.
But you do have a point. Back when the solstice was really celebrated (although by whom I'm not certain; not the Druids, as I was first led to believe), they probably had not yet learned to refine steel to the point where it became deadly to fay.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@aol.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Wednesday, December 22, 2004 12:27:38 PM
IP: 69.175.64.201
Krista> If you're entering MGC, draw, draw like the wind. You've only got nine days left. :)
*goes off to poke some other people about their MGC/AMGC entries*
Aaron
Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:51:06 AM
IP: 66.139.49.253
"Gargoyles" isn't moldy. The smell is more like leather and concrete. ;)
219 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
3 days left until Christmas.
10 days left until New Year's Day... and a price increase for Gathering 2005 pre-registration, so sign up before the end of the year and save!
Patrick
Wednesday, December 22, 2004 06:39:32 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45
Hey, everyone. Just saying hi; feels good to tool around in the fandom again. I lost touch for awhile there, but I'm back into my fanfic, back home, getting a certain season 1 of some moldy old Disney toon for Christmas (I'm sure nobody here's heard of it, wink wink nudge nudge).... so, hi!
Conna Stevenson - [conna@studioangelus.com]
USWednesday, December 22, 2004 02:12:46 AM
IP: 24.214.176.183
I'm entering in MGC's monthly art contest for the first time. Any pointers?
Krista
Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:41:15 PM
IP: 68.116.254.201
Harvester> <<Ring out the solstice bells, unless you're a member of the Third Race>>: Who says solstice bells are the big ones? and they could easily be bronze.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:22:21 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89
Starsinger > Welcome back. That gargoyle was Korul, played by Loopy. His site can be found here:
http://www.eyesinthedark.org/wolfwares/
220 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
4 days left until Christmas.
1 day left until I start yet another 10 day countdown. ;)
Patrick
Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:14:44 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153
Hi Starsinger, welcome back! Come to the Gathering, it's in Las Vegas this year! <click>
kathy - [staff@gargoyles-fans.org]
Tuesday, December 21, 2004 08:16:36 AM
IP: 66.82.9.24
***** TGS CR ARCHIVE UPDATE *****
The 2004 TGS CR archive has been updated to include the weeks of November 29th, 2004 through December 20th, 2004, for
a total of three newly added files.
2004 Archive:
>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/2004/
Framed Archive:
>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/frames.html
***** END UPDATE *****
Happy Holidays!
Lady Mystic - [<-- UPDATED !!!]
Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:47:50 AM
IP: 68.21.34.207
"Praise be to the distant sister sun!
Joyful as the silver planets run!"
Happy Solstice, everyone. When I go to work later at 11:00, I'll have to remind myself to bring Jethro Tull's 1977 masterpiece "Songs From the Wood" with me. Always an ideal way to celebrate the shortest day of the year. Well, that and finding time to finish Disc 1 of my DVD if I get home early enough.
Ring out the solstice bells, unless you're a member of the Third Race, in which case just hum really loud.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@aol.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:41:00 AM
IP: 69.175.64.201
Hey Starsinger,
I haven't heard from you in the longest time. What have you been up to girl?
Taleweaver
Monday, December 20, 2004 11:56:26 PM
IP: 209.179.168.52
And unlucky me at 13.
Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, December 20, 2004 11:44:19 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89
12th! in the name of bad timing!
Damien
Monday, December 20, 2004 11:20:49 PM
IP: 205.250.244.212
I see things are quiet right now. I got my copy of The Gargoyles DVD along with the complete Buck Rogers from Amazon. Even though the Buck Rogers set wasn't to be released until Tuesday, they sent them out together the Saturday before. And I still haven't had time to watch them. Christmas is when I plan to watch them. It also didn'th help that the dvd player wasn't set up yet from my move.
Who's was that wonderful beaked gargoyle on the Gathering of Gargoyles on the DVD. The workmanship was phenominal.
Starsinger
Starsinger
Monday, December 20, 2004 10:47:43 PM
IP: 209.240.205.61
10, and back
My computer's in the shop, and this is the first time I've been on in a week. My brother and his computer are home finally...
Annie
id
Monday, December 20, 2004 07:56:42 PM
IP: 208.187.169.135
Nine!
Patrick
Monday, December 20, 2004 05:44:33 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45
8th!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, December 20, 2004 03:57:53 PM
IP: 67.14.195.44
Lucky seven!
Mecord's Cat
Monday, December 20, 2004 02:05:00 PM
IP: 67.42.16.27
666!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Monday, December 20, 2004 01:53:37 PM
IP: 64.112.202.201
Cinco! Funf! Five! Back again!
TheTrok
Pamplona, Spain
Monday, December 20, 2004 01:11:34 PM
IP: 130.206.158.235
Four on the Floor.
*Returns to writing like a demon*
Gunjack "Spirit Never Dies" Valentine
Monday, December 20, 2004 12:21:00 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92
* * *
Lynati
Monday, December 20, 2004 12:13:39 PM
IP: 70.243.64.116
Dos!
Dezi
Monday, December 20, 2004 11:47:50 AM
IP: 68.57.196.146
1st!
Leo
Monday, December 20, 2004 11:10:30 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236