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Tharos: Not at all. I'm honored that the abbreviation of my name is similar to the name of a gardening implement. Gardens provide food. But seriously, no. I don't mind it. I mean, most people spell it "HoE," which implies that it's just an abbreviation for my domain name, since the E is capitalized. But anyway, if I was bothered, it would be a small price to pay for loving Blue Oyster Cult. If you're looking for intelligent metal, that's another good band to check out. It's not metal by today's standards, but it is by the standards of 1972, the year they debuted. The album "Secret Treaties" is amazing. In fact, I'd recommend their first three albums (with "Treaties" being the third album. The other two are "Blue Oyster Cult" and "Tyranny and Mutation"), but "Secret Treaties" in particular; it's probably their best, and the best one to start with. Sadly, they suffered from the same problem ailing Dream Theater, in that as time progressed, their music became less elegant and more about just putting on a gloss of razzle-dazzle. By the time they released "Fire of Unknown Origin" in 1981 (which contained the radio-friendly track "Burnin' For You"), they'd more or less lost a lot of what made their music truly compelling. But anyway, the first three albums are awesome. 1977's "Spectres" is another good one. They more or less managed to balance their earlier metal edge with the popular music sound they were drifting towards.

By the way, I think it's interesting that they come from Long Island just like DT. I wonder if they served as one of DT's influences. Songs like "I Love the Night," "Flaming Telepaths," and "Astronomy" would lead me to say yes.

Speaking of Dream Theater, I very nearly purchased "Live Scenes From New York" the other day. I want to hear some of their live stuff, and the songs on that sound a lot better than the songs on "Live at Budokan." I might eventually have to order it from amazon. 25 bucks for three discs is pretty damn good, especially when one disc has "Change of Seasons" on it.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Monday, February 28, 2005 12:47:03 AM
IP: 69.174.11.169

Lovely spam, wonderful spam.

Brute> <>: Congratulations.
<<her name is Kmeia Guillot .. formally Kmeia .. (damn i forgot how to spell it)>>: That does not bode well.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, February 27, 2005 11:09:19 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89

*glides and stops on window sill* .

hey just stoped to see whats going on .. i have to remember to check the area more then once a week .. too many comments by the end of it..

oh did i tell any of you .. there is a good reason i havent been on in several months ... i got married .. hehe she is wonderful and totally into gargoyles as much as i am :) :D .. her name is Kmeia Guillot .. formally Kmeia .. (damn i forgot how to spell it) .. ill get back to you with it ...
well later .. off for date with wife ..

*jumps and glides off to serch for wife amoung rooftops*
Brute - [brutefreewing_gargoyleguy@yahoo.com]
Hillard, Oh, usa
Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:20:44 PM
IP: 65.24.39.59

and unlike when this spam was posted in station 8 earlier, it now shares Vinnie's known IP range instead of the one it was originally posted under. Funny, that.
Anonymous
Sunday, February 27, 2005 03:01:22 PM
IP: 69.148.198.75

There's nothing like a spambot posting links that don't even go to valid domains. What a la-HOO-zer.
Patrick
Sunday, February 27, 2005 02:12:55 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

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online poker - [luba8718@tech.tv]
online poker, online poker, online poker
Sunday, February 27, 2005 01:24:43 PM
IP: 64.112.203.32

Here's a Jeff Bennett sighting for you all! (Click on link for details)
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Sunday, February 27, 2005 03:41:39 AM
IP: 64.112.202.209

Lynati> <<And he claims not to have ever seen any of The Bizz's work, and yet>>: Calibos, now. Though I believe I referred Gunjack to Doug Winger once when we were talking about furry art. Winger is much more exuberant about the additions.
<<the art Hates The Bizz became infamous for>>: I thought it was more for the beastly stuff, not the futanari.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Sunday, February 27, 2005 02:07:04 AM
IP: 68.83.187.89

I have the suspicion that Castaway was employing mercenaries like Banquo and Fleance because he needed people with combat experience who could train the ordinary citizens to fight gargoyles. (I still think that it's a pity that Greg Weisman did only one Quarrymen episode; it's difficult to tell how he saw them going when all of the other episodes involving them were done by his successors who weren't as familiar with the series as he was.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, February 26, 2005 06:19:54 PM
IP: 4.244.18.136

Gunjack Valentine, Lain and Lynati,
I realize that the current discussion has evolved somewhat beyound this, but I wanted to thank you for your efforts in bring the "Hungry Shadows" stories to us. It perhaps is easy to pick at stories and say maybe this or that could have been different, but it is a lot of work to create something when at first there is just the spark of any idea. I find that the story is very well written and engrossing. Thanks again for your efforts to bring it to fruition
Brian - [brimont@pacbell.net]
Modesto, CA, usa
Saturday, February 26, 2005 05:42:54 PM
IP: 69.225.60.43

Patrick:<If 9/11 could not send the populace of NYC into a permanent panic, I doubt whether much of ANYTHING could.>
Then again the media wasn't actively stirring people up, like they did in the show.
<Of course, he also made a major P.R. blunder by designing the uniforms with hoods exactly like the kind the KKK wears. But that's another discussion.>
That was more Greg Weisman decision then Canmore/Castaway.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Saturday, February 26, 2005 01:55:29 PM
IP: 64.112.202.174

*hit sumbit too soon*

*sits next to Lynati and offers sushi*

you are a great artist, who could forget the Caldeaian GBoNY
and the Potato of Doooooom : )
Revel
Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:36:27 AM
IP: 68.119.237.207

Patrick- I love Mark Twain quotes. "Go to Heaven for the Climate, to Hell for the company."

Lynati- o.O oh NOW you are just teasing us you having seen this particular picture.
Revel
Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:23:50 AM
IP: 68.119.237.207

"It is my belief that nearly any invented quotation, played with confidence, stands a good chance to deceive." - Mark Twain

Todd > If 9/11 could not send the populace of NYC into a permanent panic, I doubt whether much of ANYTHING could. There appeared to be at most about 50 people standing behind the police barricades at St. Damiens chanting "rabble, rabble, rabble!" Even if there were 250 more off camera, that's still an utterly insignificant number when the population of Manhattan numbers in the millions.

Moving beyond "Hunter's Moon," one of the most telling signs that the average citizen wasn't moved to action by the revelation of gargoyles in the city was that Canmore / Castaway had to hire mercenaries and ex-cons to fill out the ranks of the Quarrymen. Of course, he also made a major P.R. blunder by designing the uniforms with hoods exactly like the kind the KKK wears. But that's another discussion.

152 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Patrick
Saturday, February 26, 2005 09:00:33 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Quotable Quote
�Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear � There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That�s the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.�

Reference
Provine, W.B., Origins Research 16(1), p.9, 1994.

Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Saturday, February 26, 2005 04:36:05 AM
IP: 64.112.202.210

HoE: First, does it ever bother you that everyone refers to you as "hoe"?

Anyway, I'll link you up to Christine's site so you can read her version of "For it May Come True," AND remind me that I have a band you might really like.
Tharos
Saturday, February 26, 2005 01:58:53 AM
IP: 165.190.89.139

HoE: ; ) you haven't seen the pic I speak of. It's the one of Fiona being munched on, only with an, er, addition. Much rather like the art Hates The Bizz became infamous for... *coughcough* anyway. back to angsting over how awful I am when compared to pu-sama, and how I'm really never going to get anywhere near her level of artistic talent.

*slumps in a corner and sulks*
Lynati
Friday, February 25, 2005 03:47:47 PM
IP: 70.242.184.76

*BEGIN SPOILERS*
Gunjack: I was not implying the Unseelies bred these catacomb dwellers. I was just saying that the things Madoc and Co. did breed, such as Nuckalavee, were weirder than a bunch of suterranean humanoids with shark jaws.

Lynati: <*stares cross-eyed at pic* Poor Fiona.> Ah, she's a tough dame. She'll survive. If anything, I'd be saying "poor bone-eaters."
*END SPOILERS*

I feel that the Ishimuran clan would ultimately have an easier time exposing themselves than a lot of the Western clans. Not only do they have an entire village of people to vouch for them, but Japan is a country that has more or less learned to balance technology and the environment. It's adapted the economics of the West, while at the same time holding onto the old codes of honor and discipline. True, there might be businessmen like Taro, who would see some form of profit in the gargoyles, but ultimately, I think these would fall into the minority. The main concern for the Japanese clan would be the Yakuza, who would not be at all thrilled with the gargoyle mission to protect.

Oh, by the way, general question: On the advice of Tharos, I've started reading Christine Morgan's fan fiction. I was going over the list she provided of her stories, and noticed that she has written her own version of "For It May Come True," but I could not find it under the list of her fanfic. Does anyone know where I might find it printed on the internet?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Friday, February 25, 2005 01:17:05 PM
IP: 69.174.11.169

I disagree about Yama being motivated by slights to the clan, since the humans of Ishimura were living in peace with the gargoyles. His motivation was rather that he was impatient over the fact that the gargoyles had kept themselves secret from the world. He and Taro were simply making up all that business about the humans of Ishimura taking the clan for granted.

And I still say that the outsiders and criminals bear the bulk of the responsibility for gargoyle massacres; they were the ones in the series who were actually killing gargoyles as opposed to simply running about screaming. And while they had some xenophobia behind their motives, the dominant motives were of a different nature. Hakon smashed the gargoyle clan at Castle Wyvern not because they were different from humans, but because they were protecting the humans of Castle Wyvern whom he had taken prisoner and he wanted to keep them from interfering. Constantine threatened the gargoyle eggs not primarily because he didn't like gargoyles, but because he was using them as hostages to force Princess Katharine to marry him to prop up his claims to an usurped throne. Gillecomgain went after Demona more for revenge than for simple xenophobia. Duncan and Canmore went after Demona and her clan not just because they were gargoyles, but because they were allies to their rival Macbeth. And so on. (Keep in mind, for that matter, that the gargoyles' most prominent human adversary in the 20th century was one man who definitely wasn't xenophobic at all.)

Yes, the frightened "civilians" provide some soil to allow the growth of movements like the Hunters and the Quarrymen. But xenophobia wasn't the only seed that led to those movements sprouting up. Even if the humans of Castle Wyvern had learned to live in peace with the gargoyles, the Vikings would still have shown up hoping to loot the place. Even if most of the humans in Scotland had learned to live in peace with gargoyles, Constantine, Duncan, and Canmore would still have coveted power and the throne and done whatever they could to secure it. Even Gillecomgain's darkness sprang as much from his harsh father as from Demona's attack upon him as a boy. Fear of the unknown is part of the picture, but not all of it. Many of the problems of the gargoyles really stem, ultimately, from humans having problems getting along with other humans.

I still find it unfortunate that Greg left the Goliath Chronicles immediately after completing "The Journey", so that we can't see how he would have developed the Quarrymen beyond it. Would the element of "frightened citizenry" such as Billy and Susan's mother have remained strong in it? For the Quarrymen to be emblematic of humanity's fear of the "other", I believe that it would have to; the thugs and professional henchmen of the sort that we saw in the remaining 12 episodes would have gone after the gargoyles anyway, regardless of how they felt about things different from themselves, simply because the gargoyles were getting in the way of their preying on the innocent citizenry of New York.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, February 25, 2005 07:26:39 AM
IP: 4.244.12.199

Oh good grief! The intolerance in this fandom is so thick you can cut it with a knife. What a bunch of children (or hypocrites)!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Friday, February 25, 2005 04:17:13 AM
IP: 64.112.203.181

Just in case anyone wonders what we do when we're SUPPOSED to be working on TGS....
Read this, in its entirety, and maybe send the poor guy some money. Or some hugs. He needs them.
;)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=383&item=7137070817&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Jacob - [<-- NO GO BANG!]
Friday, February 25, 2005 02:28:46 AM
IP: 205.250.217.92

Gside: [Porn? Very good.] You have no idea...the "alternate" art he was coming up with for Hungry Shadows...I almost wonder if he named the ghoulies "Bone Eaters" just so he could make those puns. And he claims not to have ever seen any of The Bizz's work, and yet... *stares cross-eyed at pic* Poor Fiona.
Lynati
Thursday, February 24, 2005 11:54:38 PM
IP: 70.242.184.76

Patrick> <<Edgar Allen Poe wrote on both>>: Because it can produce a few notes, tho they are very flat; and it is nevar put with the wrong end in front.
Because the notes for which they are noted are not noted for being musical notes.
Because there is a B in both and an N in neither.
Because it slopes with a flap.
Because they both come with inky quills.

Please don't feed the troll> Excellent.

Gunjack> <<More flesh tones lately>>: Porn? Very good.
<<Pennywhistle>>: Boy, she sure has a lot of euphamisms for it.

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Thursday, February 24, 2005 11:27:04 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89

Lain really shouldn't be linking me these things when I'm this tired...but Pettigrew...so scary...
Just a coincidental name...or is Canada really Voldemort???
Thursday, February 24, 2005 10:40:50 PM
IP: 70.242.184.76

Meant to get to this earlier, but didn't have a chance.

Gside><<Red, then? Owning up to being a commie, are you?>> More flesh tones lately. Working on drawing peoples rather than firearms all the time. It's actually been working fairly well. Still need to get a DeviantArt gallery to display my crudities, tho.

********Hungry Shadows Spoilers********

HoE><<Not that I've ever heard any myths of the French catacombs being populated by creatures who feast on bones, but as we saw in season two of "Gargoyles," the Unseelies bred weirder things.>> Not everything with teeth was made by Madoc...

...And as for the rest, part 3 should make you veeeeery happy. All shall be revealed.

**********End Hungry Shadows Stuff**************

...Will join in on the revealing discussion later, perhaps. Must pick wife up from work.

PEACE!
Gunjack "Pennywhistle" Valentine
Thursday, February 24, 2005 09:34:53 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92

Clans Exposing Themselves> You can make your own joke.
I think the human equation is pretty even around the world. In a large enough population you are going to have PIT crew and Quarrymen and everything between those poles. Level of perceived sophistication will moderate some behavior. I think the reason New Yorkers haven't turned to pitchforks and torches is fear of it looking a bit hillbilly-silly, but the farmers in Guatemala might consider it a good idea to grab their machette and hack first, ponder questions of sentience later. I don't agree with Todd's claim that the outsiders are responsible for the massacress and betrayals. I see them as the catalyst for tensions that were already there. Demona and Taro grew impatient with their respective arrangements over imagined slights to their pride. New Yorkers grew impatient with the appearent ineffectiveness of the GTF in Hunter's Moon Three and its not unreasonable to guess some of the initial Quarrymen felt the people in charge weren't doing enough to deal with the gargoyle menace. Well, that's just my thoughts that just as you'll have folks like Goliath and Elisa trying to make a peace, you'll have folks like Demona or the Hunters who will try to break it. It is just a matter of time and opportunity as to which one lasts.

Anywho, I thought I'd continue the assessment and move to the clans in the Americas. The Guatemalan (Mayan is easier to type) and the combined clans of Goliath and the clones. Since Goliath's band is already outed, lets move to the question of what should they do next? In the Main Cycle, all movement on human-gargoyle relations got suspended for the Unseelie War, how do you think the gargoyles can get things back on track?

For the Mayan clan, they have a lot in common with the Caledonians. But they have one big thing going for them and one big thing against them. On the plus side, they have the magic pendants. Without turning to stone they aren't as vulnerable as other gargoyles. On the negative side, they live on top of a Mayan pyramid. Whereas the Caledonians have nothing besides themselves to attract attention, an archeological site attracts more than its share of tourists, scientists and tomb raiders. The pyramid also restricts the Mayan clan's range of movement. They see the pyramid and the Green as their protectorate, they won't easily leave the pyramid to hide in the jungle.

Their revelation has a few possiblities. If they reveal themselves on the one-person-at-a-time level, they'll have a tough time of it. Most of the locals are farmers they've scared off. Farmers may be distrustful of the monsters who scared them off. A worse scenario is if the farmers stop being scare of the gargoyles and clear cut as much as they want.

going for the government option also has its perils. By bring the government in between the gargoyles and the locals, it immediately sets up a tense relationship. But the government would have a vested interest is preserving an archeological site and would have the resources to make that happen.

Returning to New York, there is the question of the clones. I often swing between the ideas that they are a separate clan and they are just estranged members of Goliath's clan. Today, I think of them as Goliath's clan. In this case, their fortunes are linked to Goliath's. If the people turn on the gargoyles, they aren't going to stop to sort out who belongs to which clan. And since the clones haven't done much to distinguish themselves in their own right, I think of them like hatchlings in larger clans like London and Japan. Certainly gargoyles, but not fully privilaged.

Well, enough of my rambling. Let's hear some chatter. I'm certainly not perfect in my opinions. What are yours?
Taleweaver
Thursday, February 24, 2005 08:37:18 PM
IP: 66.81.249.239

Harvester of Eyes:
Hypothetical Question- If you were to see an enraged Bear would you stick around in the area where you could get killed? The same principal applies with an enraged Gargoyles and most other wild animals you can name. People might be curious but safety usually comes first in such situations.

Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Thursday, February 24, 2005 01:40:06 PM
IP: 64.112.202.122

Todd: Ah, yes. the TGC staff made several mistakes, but one of my favorites was how Margot and Castaway were so chummy in the last episode. She didn't like gargoyles, but she also didn't like vigilantes, and I'd say being the leader of a group that had been destroying statuary all over the city and firing military ordinance in a city street would put you in the latter category. And I could tolerate vigilantes if they were cool, like the Punisher or the Saints.

<Unfortunately, most of the humans who were rescued by gargoyles responded by running for their lives in panic.> True, but the point I was trying to make was this. The gargoyles had been actively protecting the people of Manhattan for about a year and a half (I've expanded upon my previous guess, due to the fact that Greg has placed the "Hunter's Moon" episode closer to late September/early October 1996) when the Canmores destroyed their home and revealed them to the public. Suppose this means, not counting their nights off or the times that they were dealing with the villain(s) du jour such as Demona, the Pack, or Xanatos's latest web of schemes that they flew standard patrols for about 250 nights. And let's say that in that time, they stopped an average of 3 felonies every night (rapes, muggings, robberies, etc.). That would still make about 750 crimes they had prevented. I would think that given the fact that humans are also curious by nature, there would have been at least a few people who did not run away screaming, which would mean that ultimately, the gargoyles might make a few allies from people they have protected. I think the law of averages would dictate that.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Thursday, February 24, 2005 11:35:57 AM
IP: 69.174.11.169

PATRICK - [It takes an awful lot to have the entire populace running screaming down the street.]

The public revelation of a flock of living gargoyles in New York would certainly qualify.

I think that even a number of people not prepared to welcome the gargoyles with open arms would have problems with the Quarrymen. The fact that they're vigilantes would be one reason; there's certainly going to be many people who believe that actually going after the gargoyles to fight them is the job of the Gargoyle Task Force. Then there are the scientists who want to study the gargoyles (especially after they find out about them turning to stone in the daytime; since there are no other examples of this in the animal kingdom, practically every biologist in New York, if not the world, is going to want to know how that happens) and who won't be keen on the notion of every living specimen reduced to rubble before they can find out more about this newly-revealed species. And finally there are going to be the people who own architectural gargoyles after those same architectural gargoyles get mistaken by the Quarrymen for the real thing and demolished.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, February 24, 2005 07:27:40 AM
IP: 4.244.12.162

Patrick:
But in a city of millions the Quarrymen or P.I.T. would still be a force to be reckoned with. Lynch Mobs are always dangerous, no matter how small.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Thursday, February 24, 2005 02:49:51 AM
IP: 64.112.202.163

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" -- Edgar Allen Poe wrote on both. :P

Public reaction to gargoyles - I would bet that for every person who joins either the Quarrymen or P.I.T., there are at least a hundred if not more who wouldn't care enough one way or the other. It takes an awful lot to have the entire populace running screaming down the street.
Patrick
Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:01:11 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

HoE> <<since the TGS writers draw heavily upon Greg's "master plan" for inspiration>>: The further away from planned elements, the harder it is to draw.

Patrick> <<John gave his brother James a "box" - i.e., a punch - in the head while James was sleeping>>: Very good, but you don't get the bonus points for the full verse answer.
<<That's a Mad Hatter riddle, from "Alice in Wonderland.">>: No, just a Puzzle from Wonderland. THE Hatter riddle is: Why is a raven like a writing desk?

Todd> <<drive the hearer of the rhyme up the wall in multiplying>>: What, you mean you don't know sigma(0,n,7^n) off the top of your head?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 10:26:22 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89

HARVESTER - Unfortunately, most of the humans who were rescued by gargoyles responded by running for their lives in panic (just take a look at the beginning of "Hunter's Moon Part One"). (I've sometimes thought that there should have been a scene where, after the rescued humans start screaming in terror at the gargoyles who just saved their lives and shouting at them "Keep away from us!", Brooklyn replies, "All right, we'll go away and ask the muggers if they wouldn't mind coming back and picking up where they left off.")

I think that one particularly important reason as to why the gargoyles didn't make an effort to publicly reveal themselves (in an official way) was Elisa. She did her best to discourage them, largely because she liked being the one human whom they trusted. (Hence her reluctance to introduce them to Derek in "Her Brother's Keeper" or Matt in "Revelations", even though it was perfectly all right with the clan.)

I consider it a pity that Greg left the series after doing "The Journey", so that we never got to see him develop the Quarrymen further, and they wound up degenerating automatically, under the new production team, into a simple band of thugs with no trace of the "frightened citizen" element. (What happened to those people meeting at Castaway's headquarters in "The Journey"? Did they all leave like Vinnie, or did they wind up getting so corrupted that they became full-time villainous henchmen, abandoning their old lives and families? Hopefully the former.) We do know that the Quarrymen would still have been around in some form in 2198, but not what they would have been like. Given that the gargoyles would be more "familiar" by 2198 (a little over two hundred years after humans formally discovered that they existed) and that these people would have been aware of their being around from childhood onwards, it definitely couldn't be the same thing as the frightened and insecure people in the immediate aftermath of "Hunter's Moon". Maybe the organization would have become closer in character to the Quarrymen of the Goliath Chronicles (in the sense of being made up more of "professional bad guys" of the Banquo and Fleance variety), though I doubt that they'd have gone as over the edge as the Goliath Chronicles Quarrymen (who clearly must have taken leave of their senses if they were doing things like firing off heavy artillery in the city streets or attacking passenger trains, without even stopping to consider how the authorities would have responded to such behavior; making anti-gargoyle speeches is one thing, but engaging in violent vigilantism that endangers the lives of human bystanders even more than the gargoyles could ever have done is another).
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 06:51:04 PM
IP: 4.245.17.22

Harvester of Eyes:<Surely there would have been at least a few people who might have been pro-gargoyle because a gargoyle saved them from a rape or a mugging.> Unfortunately because victims always runaway from them the clan hasn't really been able to get it's message across. The only episode that I know of where information on Gargoyles was disseminated was the TGC episode "Broadway Goes To Hollywood" and everyone knows that those episodes don't count in the series.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 06:38:24 PM
IP: 64.112.203.19

Todd: One of the ideas I was given from "The Journey" is that most people join a hate group because they're introduced to something that seems frightening, and they need to have other people (also looking for answers) for support. As we saw right before the first act ended, most of the Quarrymen were just frightened because their world had been disrupted by something they did not understand, and fearing the unknown is part of human nature. Castway, like a latterday Hitler or Nathan Bedford Forrest, simply possessed the leadership skills to mold them to suit his needs, while at the same time making them feel like they were working towards a greater good. Someone once told me that if Greg had worked on the rest of the Goliath Chronicles, eventually the Quarrymen (well, the ones who were just average people like the concerned mother) would have come to realize that Castaway was the true villain.

If I had to guess, I would say the Manhattan clan had been patrolling the city since the first quarter of 1995, meaning that they'd been stopping crimes for about a year when they were revealed to the world. Surely there would have been at least a few people who might have been pro-gargoyle because a gargoyle saved them from a rape or a mugging. I always wondered why we never heard from any of those people. I mean, there would of course be those people who just ran from the gargoyles, but if they'd been protecting the city for a year, you'd think at least a small handful of the people they helped would see them as noble beings.

I would say that simply revealing oneself would have merits, but I agree that it would have to be planned. I would get the opinions of people who have a great deal of public influence first. If most of them are like Margot, and see gargoyles as mindless beasts, then things could get thorny.

Oh, and by the way, guys. I wanted to name the man with the wives since both people in the rhyme have no name, and I figured I would give one of them a name as a place holder. Next time, I'll just call the first guy Narrator.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 01:19:19 PM
IP: 69.174.11.169

Here's an article from CNN about Keith David's preparation for voting for the Oscars.
Mecord's Cat - [<- clicky]
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:45:05 PM
IP: 65.103.225.200

I think that the gargoyles ultimately have more to gain by revealing themselves than by staying hidden (though they'd need to be careful in how they do it). A major problem of staying hidden is that, eventually, somebody's likely to reveal you to the world on his terms, terms that won't be so good for you (as in the Canmores exposing the gargoyles to the world via Jon Canmore's news report framing them for the destruction of the clock tower). As long as the public is getting all of its information about gargoyles from gargoyle-haters, rather than from the gargoyles' human allies or the gargoyles themselves, they're going to wind up suspicious of the gargoyles. You need to counteract the propaganda of people like the Canmores if you're going to get anywhere. And certainly you can't keep on hiding from the world forever (something that even the New Olympians realized in the end).

Of course, it has to be cautious since, if it goes wrong, you could still be facing an attack from a frightened group of humans (although, as I'll explain in a moment, the menace of the "frightened humans" seems to have been exaggerated). One might even see it as more a matter of introducing the gargoyles to the outside world one human at a time, as Goliath and his clan did, rather than to the public all at once. But it's still something that you have to do in the end.

While humans are probably not much less superstitious now than they were in the late 10th century (people still read their horoscopes in the newspaper, believe in UFOs, things like that), I don't think that the general public is that much of a threat to gargoyles, unless manipulated. I've mentioned this before, but note that the "gargoyle massacres" of the series were never carried out by the "John and Jane Q. Public" section of the human race. The Wyvern Massacre of 994 was carried out, not by Princess Katharine and her people, but by the Vikings, who were outside invaders that were attacking the castle in the hopes of looting it even before they knew that there were gargoyles there (and who were helped inside, for that matter, by a pro-gargoyle human). The slaughter of Demona's clan in 1057 was carried out, not by Macbeth and his people, but by the outside invasion of the English under Canmore (and while both the English and Canmore didn't like gargoyles much, the real issue of the invasion was human politics, a struggle over the Scottish throne). The massacre of the Mayan gargoyles that left only Zafiro, Turquesa, Obsidiana, and Jade as survivors was carried out not by the local farmers but by looters who were presumably combing the pyramid for artifacts like the Mayan Sun Amulet to sell on the black market. For that matter, when you look even to the Quarrymen, the one "ordinary" member who saw much action against the gargoyles in "The Journey" (though I can imagine that many people would dispute the use of the word "ordinary" to describe Vinnie) was the one who wound up refusing to help Castaway and saved Goliath and Elisa from him; the other Quarrymen in that encounter were Castaway himself and Banquo and Fleance (a couple of hired mercenaries whose opposition to the gargoyles was based not so much on the fact that "they're big and scary and different from us" as on the fact that they were being paid to hunt the gargoyles - and probably wanted a little of their own back after past encounters with the clan in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" and "Pendragon").

In general, the ordinary humans didn't respond to gargoyles by fighting back, but by simply running off in a panic. Maybe they wound up taking part in anti-gargoyle mobs more often than the series showed; we honestly don't know. But a close examination of gargoyle history as revealed in the series indicates that the bulk of the people who actually went out to attack the gargoyles and kill them weren't "man in the street" types who were afraid that the gargoyles would attack them or eat their children, but were marauders like Hakon and his Vikings, tyrants like Constantine, Duncan, and Canmore, mercenaries like Gillecomgain, the Pack, Banquo and Fleance, etc. (The Canmores of "Hunter's Moon" were a near-exception to the rule in that their war on the gargoyles was more misguided than villainous in intent; they were not out for power and money, like so many of the other gargoyle-haters, but simply saw the Hunt as a sacred duty to their ancestors, and especially to avenge their father's death. They were closer in spirit to a tragic hero like Hamlet than to an outright villain like Richard III or Iago.) Of course, it's not that simple; would people like Hakon or Gillecomgain have gotten away with as much as they had if the people in general had overcome their fears of gargoyles and taken a stand in their defence, as Vinnie did in "The Journey"? We'll probably never know.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 07:33:56 AM
IP: 4.244.12.76

Todd> Well, if you want to get technical, the rhyme would have had to be made during the lives of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young in order for the man to even be considered being Mormon. Anything later and he would have been excomunicated.

Yggdrasil> Joseph had his vision in 1820, but the church wasn't established until 1830. Plural marraige wasn't instituted until some years later, though I forget the exact year. I could write a very long rant about the missconceptions of plural marraige in the church, but I'll spare the room my ravings.

Taleweaver> For some clans where they live will have a big impact. London for example might find people more accepting simply because London is has had to deal more and become more accepting through history (but that's just my broad point of view). It also depends how they choose to reveal themselves (they probably want to avoid any "Hunter's Moon" type of scenarios). Personally I always thought the Manhattan clan should publicly appeal to the government for protection and citizenship. Proving that their a sentient species should be enough to eventually succeed (though if history proves anything it will be some time in the making). I even started writing a story once with Goliath going to D.C., but couldn't figure out how to introduce him to the President without him getting shot so I moved on.
Mecord
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 04:13:32 AM
IP: 65.103.225.200

I have a discussion topic, lets give it a go. What would you see are the pitfalls and the possibilities of the clans revealing themselves? Instead of as a group, which I think the Main Cycle is heading, as individual clans.

Of the two clans in the UK, I think the London clan has more to lose than the Caledonian clan. For London, they have no where to go if things go sour. There size makes it difficult to pick up and move or run and hide. The Caledonian clan can easily blend into the forest and disappear. On the positive, the Caledonians have more to gain, but the London clan is in a better position to capitalize on improved human-gargoyle relations. The Caledonian clan could use support in saving their little corner of the world, but the London clan understands enough politics to see it gets done.

If I was in the London clan, I'd say keep to the Defenders of the Night strategy. See where things would go whith the city whispering rumors about whether gargoyles are in London.

If I were in the Caledonian clan, I say make a great show of it. Reaaly put yourself out there, in that way they are dealing with humans on their own terms.

Care to discuss?
Taleweaver
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:23:06 PM
IP: 209.179.168.34

Greetings;

HoE: The earliest publication date of this rhyme is from the 1730's. Joseph Smith reportedly received his first vision around 1820. Given that the rhyme is probably much older than the publication date, and the fact that St. Ives is in Cornwall, England, would imply that this is not the case. The fact that historically this rhyme was used to teach lateral thinking indicated that it is only the narrator who is actually on his way to St. Ives, since a direct multiplication problem would only exemplify linear thinking.

Yggdrasil - [eng050599@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 08:54:20 PM
IP: 24.114.11.28

This is probably overanalyzing the nursery rhyme (I believe that the whole point of all the wives, cats, and kittens is to drive the hearer of the rhyme up the wall in multiplying them before discovering that only the narrator was going to St. Ives), but I doubt that the man was a Mormon in any case, simply because the nursery rhyme was most likely composed before the Mormon religion was founded, and long before Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were even born. (I wonder when it was first recorded; I'm going to have to look that up.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 07:00:47 PM
IP: 4.245.21.225

Harvester> according to your arguement my answer is still the most likely, becasue most Mormons wouldn't be going to what sounds like a catholic cathedral. :P Seriously though, there really isn't enough information in the riddle. the only person we know is going to St. Ives is the narrator of the riddle. But I am curious as to why Mormon and his wives would be taking all those cats to the cathedral. Could be ritual sacrifice I suppose. Because, you know, Mormons are cultists. (that last bit was sarcastic by the way)
Mecord
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 05:15:28 PM
IP: 65.103.225.200

Gside > John gave his brother James a "box" - i.e., a punch - in the head while James was sleeping. That's a Mad Hatter riddle, from "Alice in Wonderland."

And speaking of punch...

<<"I mean WHERE'S THE KOOL AID???????????????">>

There was some at Gathering 1998, but when it was offered around there were no takers. Click my name. ;)

156 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Patrick - [<-- Hey, Kool-Aid!]
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 07:32:40 AM
IP: 66.93.14.153

Harvester> <<Most Canmores who do fight the Demon don't live long enough to tell the tale, and those that don't fight her spend their lives searching in vain>>
If you pay lots of attention the the descriptions, you will also note that not all of the "Hunters" mentioned are actually "Canmores".

<<I found it interesting that after her soiree in Reeves's chateau, Demona flew off with Kappel only to leave him in a corner of the Parisian catacombs and then confront him and subsequently abandon him to the bone-eaters. I really hope this is part of a master plan she's got in her attempts to get the stone>>

Anyone else want to offer any theories on this before we hand it to you on a nice shiny silver platter?

Most of the answers are all in there, if you read carefully enough and pay attention to seemingly inconsequential details.
And then, OMG, we might have a *TGS* discussion! :0
*faints*
... it would be nice.. points for effort?
;)
lain
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 05:34:55 AM
IP: 205.250.217.92

*glides into window and perches on windowsill*

hey .. sorry i havent been in the room for a while ... hell like at all for the last few months .. ive moved up north and then for a while didnt even have net access. but hopefully im still on the earth somewere. but hey if yall missed me .. well i dunno just say hey .. lol .. ok i confused myself but ill talk to yall later

*jumps and glideso out window again*
Brute - [butefreewing_gargoyleguy@yahoo.com]
hilliard, oh, usa
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 02:06:28 AM
IP: 65.24.39.59

Hmmm, well no surprises that I'm thirteenth. As the song says, "if it wasn't for bad luck..."

Mecord: Is there really any way of knowing just what the man was doing? For the sake of clarity, the man with the wives shall be called Mormon, due to the whole polygamy factor. Basically because I don't want to make any Muslim jokes. Keifer Sutherland said it's not nice, but he never said anything about Mormons. But anyway, all we know is the guy simply met Mormon on the road. They could have been walking in the same direction. I mean, a guy traveling with seven wives, each carrying a brood of cats, would probably not cover as much ground as a guy traveling by himself. If this were the case, the guy would easily have caught up to Mormon. Or Mormon and his harem could live on the side of the road. Or perhaps Mormon just exists in the guy's mind. But if the latter two were the case, it would still just be the guy going to St. Ives.

**WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD**
Finished reading "Hungry Shadows, Part 2" the other night. Only took me three glasses of Shiraz. Okay: just what the hell were those things in the catacombs? Not that I'm complaining. As I said, I love macabre science fiction, and we've already established that in the gargoyles universe (canonical or fandom), all myths have a grain of truth. Not that I've ever heard any myths of the French catacombs being populated by creatures who feast on bones, but as we saw in season two of "Gargoyles," the Unseelies bred weirder things. So these creatures are a weird thing to see in TGS, but keeping with the theme of the story, they're surprisingly appropriate. I really hope we learn just why Demona is allied with them. Also, it did seem a bit wasteful for her to just give Kappel to them. Unless this serves a purpose, but as we've learned, the lady rarely acts without purpose. However, I did enjoy the way she exercised her habit of saying one thing, meaning something different. That was always one of my favorite parts of the episode "Temptation."

I also liked how we got into Fiona's background more. I love it when I guess correctly. I'm saying that because I now feel sure in my assumption that Jackson Canmore is the great-grandfather of Jason, Robyn, and Jon. And as either Gunjack or Lain pointed out, I think it was cool the way Fiona's relating her family history to Bouchard referenced the lost scene from "Hunter's Moon." I also loved the POV of the writing. We really get a sense of how zealous she is towards her cause.

Okay: a few issues. I really hope Demona has a bigger part in the third installment. I have an idea that Fiona might not be long for the world, but since the TGS writers draw heavily upon Greg's "master plan" for inspiration (at least, according to what I've read, they have), maybe I'm wrong. If that's the case, then Fiona would be a rarity in her lineage. Most Canmores who do fight the Demon don't live long enough to tell the tale, and those that don't fight her spend their lives searching in vain. But I digress. I found it interesting that after her soiree in Reeves's chateau, Demona flew off with Kappel only to leave him in a corner of the Parisian catacombs and then confront him and subsequently abandon him to the bone-eaters. I really hope this is part of a master plan she's got in her attempts to get the stone.

Fortunately, I'm a patient man. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:58:21 AM
IP: 69.174.11.169

Tharos> <<Anyone have a witty phrase or a quote with "eight" in it?>>: You're Henry the Eighth, you are.

Gunjack> <<Not Very Black>>: Red, then? Owning up to being a commie, are you?

Since we're all for riddles today:

John gave his brother James a box:
About it there were many locks.
James woke and said it gave him pain;
So gave it back to John again.
The box was not with lid supplied,
Yet caused two lids to open wide;
And all these locks had never a key-
What kind of box, then, could it be?

Na zdorov'ya.
Gside - [gside@comcast.net]
Fair Haven, NJ
Monday, February 21, 2005 11:21:52 PM
IP: 68.83.187.89

Patrick>> <How many were going to St. Ives?> one, the "I". if he met the man with seven wives on the way to St. Ives then the man was probably going the other way.
Mecord
Monday, February 21, 2005 02:58:53 PM
IP: 65.103.225.200

10th and here is a Quotable Quote:

�We no longer feel ourselves to be guests in someone else�s home and therefore obliged to make our behavior conform with a set of pre-existing cosmic rules. It is our creation now. We make the rules. We establish the parameters of reality. We create the world, and because we do, we no longer feel beholden to outside forces. We no longer have to justify our behavior, for we are now the architects of the universe. We are responsible to nothing outside ourselves, for we are the kingdom, the power, and the glory for ever and ever.�

� Jeremy Rifkin, Algeny, Viking Press, New York, p. 244, 1983.

And for more scientific fun click on the link!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Monday, February 21, 2005 02:22:07 PM
IP: 64.112.203.240

Nine. Spent all day yesterday painting. will post the hilariouys results later, maybe. Flee while you can.
Gunjack "Not Very Black" Valentine
Monday, February 21, 2005 01:50:36 PM
IP: 205.250.217.92

Eight.

Anyone have a witty phrase or a quote with "eight" in it? I've got nothing.
Tharos
Monday, February 21, 2005 01:48:06 PM
IP: 165.190.89.139

As I was going to St. Ives
I met a man with SEVEN wives.
Each wife had SEVEN sacks.
Each sack had SEVEN cats.
Each cat had SEVEM kittens.
Kittens, cats, sacks, wives
How many were going to St. Ives?

157 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Patrick
Monday, February 21, 2005 12:31:59 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

SIX!!
Dezi
Monday, February 21, 2005 12:22:33 PM
IP: 68.57.196.146

Fifth!
Leo
Monday, February 21, 2005 11:12:57 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Teleports into Fourth
Spacebabie
Monday, February 21, 2005 11:02:43 AM
IP: 69.161.157.101

...lucky Revel...

]; )
Lynati
Monday, February 21, 2005 11:01:08 AM
IP: 69.148.196.132

3rd...
Archwolf
Pittsburgh, pa
Monday, February 21, 2005 11:01:02 AM
IP: 68.234.212.70

*slides face fist into SECOND base
Revel
Monday, February 21, 2005 11:00:34 AM
IP: 68.119.237.207

Either I'm first, or the room's not loading.

*plants a flag on a beanbag chair*
Lynati
Monday, February 21, 2005 10:55:15 AM
IP: 69.148.196.132