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Taleweaver: heh. Nice of you to wade in; although I’d hope that both Ed and I are mature enough not to let this dissolve into a flame war or take our disagreements too personally. I’ve got most of it out my system (as naturally the rest of this post will make a lie of), he made a well-written and sensible defense (that I naturally disagree with parts of) and since the issue in question (the quality of the published Pen 4 and the alpha version of Gargs 4) is a matter of personal opinion, it’s not something that we’d ever be able to agree on. He thinks they did a wonderful job. I think they did not. That’s not something that can easily be reconciled, not when, as Ed himself said, one tends to be biased towards one’s own projects.


It’s not simply that I think parts of Pen 4 could have been planned or written better – it’s that I can see that it had the potential to be a truly wonderful season, and that potential was not, in my opinion, met. Wasted potential makes me sad, especially in relation to stories.

I was actually in the staff mail archives the other day, trying to track down who it was who first came up with idea for “Villains” (as far as I can tell, Greg B. was the first one to try and do anything with the concept) and was refreshed on the “Interest in season 6” thing Ed mentioned, which was the only reason I didn’t look at it in his post and go “what the free is he talking about? We’re stopping at season 5.” And we on staff haven't been discussing anything later than BG 1 and Gar 4 for about year now, at least not to any depth.

Yes, more people were talking about what was to come after season 4 than during it; not because it came next, but simply because it was something new and interesting to discuss. I’d only recently joined the staff, as an artist and not a writer, and in the beginning wasn’t comfortable commenting on these outlines that had obviously seen a fair amount of work. And when I did comment, I got the same response that lain told me *she* had- I was usually ignored, or only the easy fixes were- sometimes- used. I can think of one specific occasion where I suggested a slight alteration – the inclusion of no more than three short lines of dialogue into the story “Sanctuary”- that would have tied back to things that were being planned for both Gar 4 and TD 5, a nice bonus for the readers. (I'd say "unexpected bonus", only I think a lot of people familar with TD were expecting some attention on the giant sarcophogi with a gargoyle carved in it that was a plot point in previous stories at the Sanctuary.) Your stated reason for not wanting to include it was, “It would distract too much from the rest of the story. We want people to focus on what is happening, not these throw-away lines.” I was lacked the balls to say it at the time, but all I could think was- If three lines can attract the attention of your readers to the point that they are discussing only those lines, what does that say about the story?

It was a great tie-in. And you guys didn’t feel that Pendragon needed to reflect what was going on in the rest of the gargoyles universe. "Find a place to do it in Gargoyles if you need it so badly." As Leo pointed out to me earlier, “That's the kind of thing the "audience" WANTS to see.” They like having a story that is more about just the events going on at the present. People like having these little unexpected revelations come up in the stories, like easter eggs.

You had a similar reaction to the London Clan. People liked them, people seemed more interested in them than Arthur and his troop- so rather than making Arthur and his knights more interesting, you opted to cut the appearance of the London Clan down to nill. People weren’t more interested because they were gargoyles; people were more interested in them because, in general, Spike (and others) wrote them to be far more dynamic than most people wrote Arthur and co. I cringed every time I looked at the Pen Bibles and saw notes like, “This was more of a “Gargoyles UK” story than a Pendragon story, but it does include Arthur…” every time you got to a tale that included the London or Caledonian clans playing a major role. Where would Gargoyles be if we treated it the same way, focusing solely on the Gargoyles characters and dumping Elisa, Matt, Xanatos, Sevarius, the Mutates, and the Pack into a separate series? “Well, this story is mostly about Elisa, it’s more of a “Humans of New York” tale than a Gargoyles story”.
Personally, I wanted to see more of the neo-knights. I wanted to see if the hints at a Rory/Leba/Dulcinea love triangle would take off, and more development on those three, period. I wanted to see Merlin acting more like the centuries-old mage that he is, powers or no powers. I wanted to see more of Griff’s interaction with his clan, and his mate. Relating to an earlier comment made in this CR- I like the London clan children well enough, but I didn’t want to see multiple episodes focusing on them and their antics, and I don't think the other readers would, either. I wanted to see more of Caspian, of Imogen and Faulc who were at points in Pen season 2 practically acting as Arthur and Griff’s squires. (There’s a lot of stuff I’d like to have seen handled better in other parts of TGS that you guys were not at all involved with, btw. This ramble happens to be focused mostly on Pendragon.)

The outlines were up for a long time, yes- but they were just outlines. They looked okay as the guideline for a story, and then suddenly it was written, and then the problems appeared. You brought someone on to do edits, and after the third story he only had about a week before it was released to even look at the others. He had ideas, and I know you used a lot of them, but when the time constraints came down you decided to keep on with the release schedule, rather than putting off releasing an ep for a week and seeing if it could be improved.

As for the rest of the staff at the time, I can’t speak for them (besides lain, since she and I have had discussions at length about this). But my main reason for not commenting on the outlines was that I thought they were pretty bad, and I couldn’t see a way to fix the problems that didn’t involve massive changes in the entire season. The ideas were interesting; the execution of them in many cases didn’t make sense. Half of the stories I looked at and thought, these weren’t plots that should happen in a single story, and single afternoon- these were plots with events that ought to cover months worth of time, that ought to be developed over half a season. These are things we ought to allow to have longer-reaching consequences. Let's open them up and see where they go throughout the season.

They were flat, and I think most people were tired of beating them and had put the stick down. But the future- there was something new and dynamic, and open, with these ideas that we could actually discuss, while the present days stories seemed to evoke more of a, “oh…okay. This is what we’re doing?” reaction. And you both seemed pretty satisfied with the Pen outlines; they were what you wanted. As has just been stated, they remained just what you wanted and you think you did an excellent job. When attempts to be subtle and say, “why don’t you change that?” were met with a, “why would we change that, it’s perfect”, it doesn’t engender the heart in someone to take it upon themselves to re-write the entire outline in question, hand it over, and say “why not do THIS instead? I think it might make a better story.”

Often you’d have a villain show up. He would perform villainy, and by the end of the story he would be defeated, or reconciled, and vanish, not to be heard from again (at least not for 10 more episodes, with no word as to what he may have been up to during the 6 or so months that would have passed in the interim time.) Why not have the villain show up, pass himself off as a good guy, and then stick around for a season and a half- he wouldn’t have to be the focus, or even in the background, of every ep, just there from time to time, maybe involved in a plot, maybe just a spectator- until his (or her) true colors were revealed in final stages of the season in out-of-the-blue plot twist, in some ultimate act of villainy? Why did so many of the stories have to be so self-contained when they could be spun out into so much more? Why keep things so insulated from the greater mythos of the TGS world?

One thing you guys do have going for you that no one can deny- you did get it done. You did create, outline, draft, edit, and release 24 stories. And to date, we have not. I still think you should have spent an extra four months on them, and really made them shine; in many cases, I think you should over adjusted entire aspects of some of them while they were in outline form. All we can do is try to avoid doing in Gar 4 the very things that bother us about Pen 4, and hope that they are made better for the extra attention.

If you want, I could draft you up a list of my personal grievances with Pendragon and mail them to you personally. If you don’t care to see them, that’s understandable. I’m not sure I would in your position. But we- okay, *I*- have been taking up a lot of room in the CR arguing this, and half the stuff I should like to mention would be spoilery and shouldn’t be posted in the CR anyway.

Alright. I'm probably done now. I'm going to go eat dinner and watch the second season of West Wing and a writer who can blow us ALL out of the water when it comes to telling a compelling story.
Lynati "Can't we have a decent arguement here without somebody referecning genitals?" Kshudra
Sunday, March 19, 2006 11:34:13 PM
IP: 70.248.26.119

.."La la la la labia, baby you've got something for me..."
Leo
Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:21:17 PM
IP: 68.107.154.71

*stares at the last two posts, from Bishansky and Harvester *

What did those have to do with anything?
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:10:22 PM
IP: 4.245.16.172

EGON PAX'S VAGINA!
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:07:36 PM
IP: 69.174.3.196

VAGINA!
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, March 19, 2006 09:57:34 PM
IP: 65.33.202.237

*Ding!* *Ding!* *Ding!*
Ok! Combatants back to your corners. While this has been one of the most engaging discussion in the CR in months, I don't want feelings hurt and things said that are going to lead to blows come the Gathering.

Here are some observations from an oldtime staffer. 1) I came on board not long after breakdowns and writing actually started on the first season. Even then there was stuff folks planned and then disappeared with no notes on where to go. The understand I gained from the early days was if you wanted your vision carried to fruition, you had to do the heavy lifting. That meant planning, breakdown, paying attention to other breakdowns in case of conflict and sometimes grunt writing. If you weren't prepared to do that your idea was fair game to be used, abused or ignored. I've been out of circulation for a while, but if a previous story idea doesn't fit, you don't have to use it or uses Gabrielle's solution: send them to fall asleep in a cave.

Towards the end of my time with the project, there was that audible silence when it came to reviewing and editing the episodes. I feel Ed's frustration. A story would lie for weeks when I was there. Editors entreated and pleaded for participation to little effect.

In the end telling the story you want is what matters. I agree with Lynati's observation, that many secondary or newly introduced characters became the main focus while the main character faded into the scenery. I hope new episodes will reverse this, but whatever happens it is your story to write. If I have a problem with the execution, I can either not read it or write my own story. The current staff's only task, and it is a tall order who ever is manning the helm, is to write the best story to their ability.

The best advise I can pass on is go where the story leads not where you want it to go.

Alright! I want a nice clean fight. No hitting below the belt. Break up when the ref wades it. And wait for the bell.

*Ding!* *Ding!* *Ding!*




Taleweaver
Chino, CA, USA
Saturday, March 18, 2006 08:39:36 PM
IP: 4.233.32.139

Todd>> "I still remember my time on TGS fondly, but I'm even happier to see Greg Weisman tell how he would have done the third season of "Gargoyles", via the upcoming comic."

Indeed, I imagine it will be great. I'm also extremely happy that their choice of art style is more inline with the original series, instead of closer to the original comic book's style. I've seen many artists do good things with the previous comic style, but to be honest, it has always driven me up the wall. >.<
The sample pages Mooncat linked to made me very happy, and I can't wait for the comics to come out :D
Jacob
Saturday, March 18, 2006 08:21:01 PM
IP: 205.250.215.79

I just happened to take up reading Pendragon after I had finished with the main Gargoyles series. In my posts, I'd make a comment or two on what I'd been reading, just to have something to talk about in the CR. Ed and Todd have said they've enjoyed reading them, so I've kept posting them (I don't know if I'll be able to do that as often while reading Timedancer, simply because I don't know how many of those story authors are still lurking here).

WARNING: POTENTIAL TGS SPOILERS.

That's more for Dragomir's sake, since I don't know how far along he is. I just wanted to say (as I've said here before) that the end of the Third Season of the main Gargoyles series had what I felt was open-ended closure (the same kind we got in episodes of the canon series such as "Reawakening" and "Hunter's Moon"). The potential for more stories is there, but even if we don't get them, what we have is still very well-rounded. But that being said, there's still a few things I'm curious about. For example, we see in the Timedancer episode "Reqiuem" that Demona eventually gets her company back. But I'd be surprised if it didn't come at some sort of price (even a free lunch costs somebody something).

END POSSIBLE SPOILERS.

Lynati: Just keep telling yourself that at least it will be better than the last 12 episodes of the Goliath Chronicles.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Saturday, March 18, 2006 08:07:20 PM
IP: 69.174.3.196

Lol, guess my post wasn't worth answering. No prob, no prob, was just hoping I'de get some feedback concerning the question and comments I posted below. Keep up the great work fanfic writers! You guys are my inspiration!
Dragomir
North AmericaSaturday, March 18, 2006 06:44:33 PM
IP: 71.192.76.212

Hey Lynati. I really don't know what to make of your comments about 'Gargoyles'. When I left, episodes outlines were being finished and Shauntell was putting out some cracking drafts. It was not, frankly, a hive of activity on staff while I was there -- in fact, you could count on the fingers of one... well, finger... the number of outlines or drafts contributed by any individual who wasn't Greg, Todd, Shauntell or myself during that 16 month period. Nor was it a season arc in the style of Buffy or 24 -- Gargoyles never had a season arc, I don't think personally it suits the series (which is more tapestry-based than arc-based for the most part, IMO), and nobody challenged that when it was discussed in breakdowns. In my outlines at least, I tried to give each character a strong, compelling story (with varying success, naturally). But there were arcs that built during the season, and I think there was plenty of great stuff in there, including my favourite outline for TGS (which Shauntell did a knee-bucklingly good draft of). Obviously, if you've chosen to restructure the art in some search for a through-plot you're going to run into problems: but that's your choice.

And it might have been avoidable if it wasn't for the fact that, without fail, the most animated discussions came regarding Season Six. In the middle of Season Four, when we were desperate for activity about Season Four and we were going nowhere, people we hardly ever heard from popped up to chat Season 6. I don't care about Season Six -- I'd be astonished if it ever happens. I cared about Season Four. If you'd come and said, "look, I don't think this story is working for x, y, z reasons" I'd have been over the moon. I'm sure it must have happened, but no specific instances actually come to mind right now. I do recall hearing, "well, that needs to change because in Season 6 there's a similar scene." Having an idea of where you're headed is fine. Getting absorbed in that to the detriment of the story in front of you is not. If the Season 4 stories are substandard (which I don't believe they were in 70% of cases, just mid-development and different from your preferences), I recall sixteen months of breakdowns where stony silence most often greeted story proposals or discussion points. It's no surprise to me that Gargoyles 4 isn't out when a lot of the remaining staff seem too busy constructing the perfect Season 6.

As for 'Pendragon', we had a season Bible and a season structure; we outlined it and wrote it and went back and added in foreshadowing and made the whole thing coherent. It was a plan, but not a multi-season plan, not a tremendously detailed plan. We let things grow and we experimented and we went back and paid off old stuff even when it was difficult to find a logic for it. We tried our hardest to wrap up everything. To the best of my recollection, there are three major loose ends: one was the fate of the White Knight which I advertised because it seemed like there might be space in G4 which we were currently working on. It was against my better judgment to tease Manhattan and frankly I apologise for it (though what would happen next is on record -- not in full outline form but in basic plot, and I'd be happy to expand even now if necessary). The second is the crossover story which was already completed in breakdowns at the time. And the twist at the end of STWOM which is given an open-ended closure in "Carbonek" -- we'd have brought it back but I think equally it says something about the characters if it doesn't. What we didn't do is stop mid-season and say, "hang on. Better stop work because we don't know what Season Six is going to be about." (Actually, we had loads of ideas for the next two seasons, but we weren't about to start discussing them when we had a job to do, a story to tell). There were plenty of things within the story and from past stories that could (and did) germinate: it ain't "accidental" continuity if you go back and seek to expand on the past. But if there were things that cause you problems, the outlines were up on the secure site for *over a year*. The drafts were up on the site for *a year*. They were edited and talked through and art added for a year. There was no big secret about any of this (which is more than I can say for other series!). We were begging for people to get involved. But we usually only heard about things we were doing wrong a week before (or after) our scheduled release.

3-season, 5-season plans (usually concocted off-list, away from the people who were actually doing the work) are fine if you don't anticipate handing the story on to a new group of people who might want to go in their own direction in the foreseeable future. It's natural to formulate ideas for the future and to try and ensure some kind of basic coherency in what you're writing, but I just don't believe that's more important than making the story you have in hand count and be worth something on its own. Continuity serves stories; stories shouldn't serve continuity.

As for the innate quality of 'Pendragon' 4 as a season... I'm biased. I'm horribly, horribly biased and I'm both the season's biggest fan and its biggest critic. If you want some grand season-long serial arc, well, obviously, this season isn't for you. For me, structurally, it's *perfect* -- couldn't have designed it better if we tried, and I doubt I'll ever do anything again which is as structurally perfect as this. We hit 24 episodes exactly, which break down perfecly into self-contained 3-episode arcs and 6-episode arcs (and into 12-episode halves home and abroad, more loosely) each of which have a fixed sub-theme, we got character symmetry, we did a little tour of the deadly sins, explored a lot of issues from Arthur's first reign, we hit every continent, we hit all our regular villains, most of our regular protagonists, and we gave almost all of them a strong wrap-up with open-ended closure (or just closure in some cases). It had meaning, it had emotion, it had symmetry and structure. Whatever you, as a critical reader, feel are its strengths and weaknesses, it achieved what I (and I suspect what Todd) wanted it to achieve -- the faults you see are because you didn't like *what we did*, not because we failed in our attempt to do what we intended. In the final analysis, it's for each reader to judge. As writers, we did our bit. Sure, it could have been much better. There are plenty of things about the season I'll point to if you wish and say, I think that was a mistake, or that didn't work, or we shouldn't have done that and should have done this. But we got on with it. We broke it. We wrote it. We edited it. We released it. People read it and reacted to it in their own way. If we did a Season 5, you would have seen things from all episodes taking on a much greater meaning and being brought back, but we didn't do that and it still holds together. So I'm sorry if you're tired of us 'patting [ourselves] on the back' for having told it... but we've done our story, you see. Now tell us yours.
Ed
Taunton, England
Saturday, March 18, 2006 04:29:57 PM
IP: 213.187.38.108

Starsinger>> Alas, The Rockaway is no more.... the silly idijits (how silly are they? -- they changed owners FOUR times!!) that I got my domain from didn't tell me that my domain had expired until a week after it had 'died.' *grumbles* It's sad to let the Rockaway go but on the bright side, I now have no excuse not to do the more professional portfolio site that I've been wanting to do for the last couple of years. Until then, I'll be posting art at DevArt <click!> and posting fics at both gargoyles-fan.org and fanfiction.net.
Spike
Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:41:28 AM
IP: 70.251.107.237

You know, I’d apologize for this if I didn’t mean it so very much, and if I wasn’t tired of seeing you guys pat yourself on the back for Pendragon Season 4. It had some awesome moments. It is FAR from the dregs of the fic archive, and as individual stories, there were some really fun ones. But as a *season*, it wasn’t that compelling. It could have been done much better.

Ironically, your choice(and no, I don't mean only Ed, this is geared collectively towards those who made the choice) to not plan out anything resembling a “seasonal” arc for either Gar 3 or 4 and Pen 4 is one of the biggest things causing delays at present. We’ve spent the last two years trying to bludgeon together a collection of half-written outlines that are only vaguely relevant to each other into an actual season of story-telling, at the same time having to deal with two-dozen directionless plot threads left over from some previously released works where little thought went into what impact events might have on overall continuity. We’re trying to weave those, together with new takes on left-over stand-alone ideas, into a cohesive set of stories; a season’s worth of rising tensions, revelations, and character growth. Of, well, Plot.

It may be too hard for us. We may utterly fail and find our selves at the mercy of a disdainful audience; making such a daring announcement as this may even bring us under harsh scrutiny from those who were inclined to take the series less seriously, assuming that we, the writers, took it less seriously. But we’re going to do our best, and if it’s not good enough for people, well, now they have the canon comic to read instead of this stand-in based on Weisman’s early plans.

Trying to deal with someone’s left-over plot threads when you don’t know where the original writer intended to go with them is difficult. Trying to deal with left-over plot threads where the writers had NO future intent of any kind is mind-boggling, especially when they had a tendency to write the secondary characters they used however they wanted to fit with their need in a story regardless of previous characterization. And to write out everyone they weren’t sure what to do with so they wouldn’t have to deal with them. And to ignore requests to include/exclude certain pieces of information when they impacted the rest of the universe, because they just didn’t want to bother making the changes.

I don’t believe there was ever a demand for a “fixed” plan to work with- just a semblance of any kind of plan at all. After all, no plans are set in stone, not until they are written and the story is released, and even then you can duck back in to fix the typos. You can plan, and have in-story revelations while you are writing- and then change the plans.

Your problem has always seemed to me to come more from the fact that others had plans *different* from your plans- not that they simply *had plans*. You wanted to do what you wanted to do, no matter what was intended for the world you were writing in. Of course the past writers foreshadowing is going to cause you problems if you don’t continue on what they put effort into setting up. If you were being truly spontaneous, you wouldn’t have a problem with anything already set into motion- you’d just jump on the wave and find out where it went. It’s only a problem when it goes against what you want to do- what you are PLANNING. You can’t *deliberately* foreshadow an event when you have no clue what comes next. “Accidental foreshadowing” in writing is a golden opportunity to alter your plans, find a new and unexpected way to take your characters. It’s a good part of both the planning and writing process. But knowing where you want to go isn’t the same thing as already being there, and you can change destinations at almost any place along the way, even allowing for previous engagements. It won’t kill you, and it certainly won’t kill a story.


I’d like to end on the point- you complain that people before you had a great deal of stuff planned out that you had to lump. It trod on your toes. It caused you problems. I complain that you guys had a great deal of stuff not at all planned out. It’s causing us even more problems.

Lynati "Its not deliberate fandom suicide, its just how I feel" Kshudra
Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:18:31 AM
IP: 70.242.187.175

Harvester: Thanks for your review! I really like "No Mercy" as well, and Todd did a great job writing it. I particularly enjoyed bringing Sybil in, as we'd been able to get Montrose and Lucius back in other episodes and, apart from Elaine, Sybil was the only recurring villain we hadn't been able to find a major role for (I briefly tried to include her in a late draft of the El Dorado episode).

As for the visions of the future, there are some things in it that I'd personally considered pitching at some stage and some things that chime with the plot/character trajectories of the end of the season, but there was never any talk of putting in specific 'foreshadowing'.

Actually, the conventional wisdom on staff at the time was that you can't have 'meaningful' foreshadowing and continuity without a fixed plan for future seasons. I always strongly resisted that -- our best story arcs had developed from building out of past stories, having strong themes and characters and feeling out the universe as we went -- our "Owen is Puck!" moments. You don't want to kill a story by pinning it down before it's developed -- not unless you absolutely need to. We'd also been stung before by inheriting material that was 'set in stone' -- things past writers had 'foreshadowed' which clashed with what we were doing, storylines past writers had left hanging, or just things that trod on our toes. Sometimes we managed to adapt this to our advantage (e.g. the Leonard prophecy from "Night of the Weird"), often we just had to trudge on with threads we didn't really know what to do with (e.g. Isfet's arc from Season 3) and in other cases (one especially) we just had to lump it even when it hurt us quite badly.

So in the case of the visions, there was enough interesting material in there that we would have looked for opportunities to build on it, to serve the story we were telling at that point. It would have felt as organic as, say, Jennifer's arc in "Flight from the Enchanter" developing out of her subplot in "Home for the Holidays". But if we never got to tell the story, you don't feel like you've lost anything.

Kyp: I see TGS as existing in its own right -- just like the comic version of 'Spider-Man' is different from the films, which is different from the cartoons, etc. Greg's is the official, the 'true' version; but TGS is a labour of love by the fans and has given joy to readers and writers for over a decade. You can't kill that just because the original story is continuing. The TGS universe has grown into its own thing, with its own rules and style and events that are quite different to those inherited from Greg in 1997. As long as the stories are worth reading, I think it's great that people can enjoy both for their own merits.
Ed
Taunton, England
Friday, March 17, 2006 07:34:28 PM
IP: 213.187.38.108

I still remember my time on TGS fondly, but I'm even happier to see Greg Weisman tell how he would have done the third season of "Gargoyles", via the upcoming comic.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, March 17, 2006 07:21:46 PM
IP: 4.244.210.37

I'll go back to mt regular color and pic after today.

KYP> While I can no longer speak for TGS, I am glad you love it. There were a lot of great stories and a lot of great people involved with it. Still are.

No, TGS will never be in vain. There is another season in the works, last I heard. But TGS was also originally created to fill the void left when the TV series was cancelled. By fans, for fans. But, it is not official. It is fanfiction... very good fanfiction, but fanfiction nonetheless.

Now, we have new canon stories coming out written by Greg Weisman, with TGS publishing new stories every year since the series cancellation and now this comic coming out. TGS definetly more than fulfilled it's original purpose. As for anymore TGS stories? When I resigned, a fourth season was in the works. And the plans and outlines had a lot of great stuff in them.

But, at the end of the day, the "Gargoyles Universe" is Greg Weisman's. We've been playing in his sandbox for ten years, and having a great time. But, it is his sandbox, and I for one am ecstatic that he finally has the oppurtunity to return and show us all how it's done :)
Greg Bishansky - [Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles Promotions Assistant]
Friday, March 17, 2006 07:01:39 PM
IP: 65.33.202.237

Hello all,

I really don't read very often what's on this board and even less write on it, but I really think I should now. I'm sorry I never encouraged the team sooner, but (and I mean it) you really did a very great job on TGS untill now and I hope it'll continue.

My point here is that I just discovered the info about the comic book (and I read the interview of Greg Weisman). My first feeling was : "Cool ! Finally, old Greg come back to his show and we'll have the official sequel." But 2 or 3 seconds later, I thought "But what will become of TGS ? Has their work been in vain ?". Actually, TGS has been my "official" sequel of Gargoyles for several years now and I'm not sure I want to see something else claim this place. What I wanted to know is what do you think about it and what are you gonna do ?

You've probably already answered this one but it's late here, I'll check tomorrow for it. Anyway, if the question hasn't already been posted, now it has been. :p

I can't judge the comic now (and I'm not even sure we'll have it in France) but I'm afraid to "like" it. What if it was better than everything I read here ? Would it become my new "official" sequel of Gargoyles ? It would seem to me horrible for all the TGS Staff and all the great time I spent reading these stories. Whatever the other fans may think, I'll really keep all the TGS work in a special place (maybe it seems a bit grandiloquent, but I don't find any other way to put it in my limited English vocabulary).

And I'll try to post more often too.
Kyp - [azerty083@hotmail.com]
Douai, France
Friday, March 17, 2006 06:40:56 PM
IP: 82.238.54.8

<--- I think I'll use Maeve for this post.

Happy Saint Patrick's Day everyone. Get extra junk for me, my diet doesn't allow me to consume alcohol.
Greg Bishansky - [Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles Promotions Assistant]
Friday, March 17, 2006 06:40:44 PM
IP: 65.33.202.237

Happy St. Patrick's day, everyone!
Spen
Friday, March 17, 2006 06:22:52 PM
IP: 216.248.119.208

dph > I wrote the outline for "Two." I have no recollection for the rest of those. Some of the early outlines were almost a group effort of back and forth on the mailing list.

98 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
Friday, March 17, 2006 05:46:21 PM
IP: 70.229.199.252

kathy - ty for making an appearance. I plan on creating a special entry in my table for tgsstaff members called "practically everybody on staff at the time" and assign that member to any unclaimed stories.
dph
ar, usa
Friday, March 17, 2006 02:00:11 PM
IP: 63.232.255.217

DRAGOMIR> You are going to be so disappointed in comic book/CANON Demona. Dude, give it up. She's still humanity's enemy when "Gargoyles 2198" starts.
Greg Bishansky - [Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles Promotions Assistant]
Friday, March 17, 2006 11:42:03 AM
IP: 65.33.202.237

DHP > You're asking about season 1 of TGS - that was several millenia ago. (Or at least it seems.) But I can tell you that "Fallout" was a story that was born of the group saying "we want this to happen, and this, and this, and so on" until we were starting to chase our own tails. However, I finally wrote the actual outline that started my career as synthesist for the early seasons.

Email exchanges general went something like "we need a story where X happens. Y is introduced as a character. And Z plot line is hinted at." I'd read said list exchange, go mow my lawn or do the dishes or something mundane, get an idea, type for half an hour or so and post an outline to the list. Generally the response was "Yeah, that's it." (Mostly, not always, sometimes it took more than one rev.). I may have done something similar for one or more of the other stories you mentioned, but at this point I really don't remember. Maybe Todd or one of the other oldtimers can jump in here.
kathy
Friday, March 17, 2006 08:20:07 AM
IP: 69.19.14.36

Hello, this the first time I've ever posted something here, so I hope its okay. I must congratulate the authors for all of their hard work, I'm so amazed by how well done these stories are and how they have the character's personalities down so well.
I love the stories involving Demona's and Angela's mother/daughter relationship, its exactly how I always dreamed they'de try to be in order to get closer to eachother. I was so disappointed how the show didn't do much more with Demona's and Angela's shaky relationship before it ended, I would have loved to see Demona stave off her hatred if it meant she wouldn't have to be alone anymore (though I'm sure she'de still be bitter against humans, understandably). I honestly hope we see Demona grow close to Angela in the new comic series just like she has in your incredible fanfiction. Do you guys think she has a shot at turning over a new leaf? (:
Oh yeah, and......I LOVE THE TWINS!!! THEY ARE SO FUNNY! Oh man, I only wish Brook's real kids will be as hilarious as those two are in the fanfics (after reading the fanfic, it will be weird to see Brook with a different family in the comics). I can also imagine Ariana becoming insecure about her appearance as she grows older, once she becomes interested in guys (I still think she's adorable, her beak sets her apart from other garg gals). Will the twins be teenagers in season 4?

Dragomir
Friday, March 17, 2006 07:25:59 AM
IP: 71.192.76.212

Thanks for the review, Harvester. "No Mercy" was as much Ed's baby as mine - he came up with the basic idea for it and the outline - but it's one that I still look back on fondly.

Although the outline was Ed's, I made one addition when I sat down to write it: Mary gradually morphing into a more Corbie-like form. I realized that, since she'd been trapped in that microcosm with Arthur back in "Fata Morgana", logically, if he was undergoing some sort of aftereffects from it, so should she, but I didn't want anything that could dilute the focus too much from Mordred's assault upon Arthur's soul. So I used the notion that the shattered magic was slowly altering her appearance to make her look like Corbie; since it was just her outward appearance being changed, it was far less of a threat.

And Mordred with his sardonic commentary was a lot of fun to write, as well. (Though perhaps the bit that I liked the most was when he starts getting uneasy at the end when Arthur finally stands up to him and announces his decision to stick to Camelot's ideals rather than to abandon them.)

Another side-note: Nigel going after Arthur and the gargoyle race as a result of Mary's death was part of Ed's outline, but my description of it was mildly influenced by the New Batman Adventures episode "Over the Edge" where Commissioner Gordon was similarly going after Batman with a vengeance after Barbara's death. (Though my account was probably a bit less poignant, since Nigel had never been that friendly with Arthur to begin with.)

Incidentally, about "Future Tense" - to me, one of the ingredients that most argues against its being literally fulfilled was that it didn't match Xanatos's style. Puck's nightmare had Xanatos (all right, it was really Lexington masquerading as Xanatos) behaving like a cliched cartoon super-villain in his blatant takeover of Manhattan and enslaving its populace, not to mention plotting to go on from there to conquering the rest of the planet. The "real Xanatos" is a lot less melodramatic than that (Greg Weisman once said that Xanatos isn't out to take over the world because he doesn't need to; he's been able to achieve his goals under the current system, so there's no reason to change it).
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, March 17, 2006 06:56:58 AM
IP: 4.244.211.60

Todd: "No Mercy" will definitely be another front-runner when I start crafting my top five. Much as I liked how Mordred's words at Camlann kept being true time and again, I was worried that his appearance in this story might start to border on tedious.

So I loved how there was no actual fighting between him and Arthur this time, and instead Mordred just played this magnificent role as a "Dickensian ghost from hell," and played it splendidly. I imagine that his dialogue was a lot of fun to write. I've been wondering over a possible voice for him for some time now, and about a third of the way through this story, I decided on Malcolm MacDowell, because a) he's familiar with dark roles, and b) like most British actors, he makes a good narrator (I heard him narrate something on either Discovery or the History Channel once, but can't remember what it was). I just loved his attitude in this one: he's very non-chalantly reminding Arthur of things that Arthur doesn't want to be reminded of (as well as showing him a horrifying vision), and doing it with a smile. Hey, who says being wicked can't be fun?

Now here's what I find really interesting. Even though it was determined that what Arthur was experiencing was merely a side effect of the microcosm (which, by the way, I liked how "defeating" Mordred at the end merely meant not giving up and giving over at what he was being shown, instead of physically fighting), I'm wondering if anything that Arthur was shown in the future was meant to echo Puck's "Future Tense" vision. What I mean is that a lot of what we saw in "Future Tense" suggests that it was just a vision. For example, they weren't really gone for forty years as time passes in the mortal world, which was a crucial part of the vision. But there were also things that did come to pass (some of which we'll hopefully see in the comic), such as Brooklyn aging forty human years on his timedances, the formation of the Ultra Pack, and the clock tower being destroyed.

Similarly, it might seem like the main catalyst in "No Mercy," which was Mary and Merlin dying when Sybil attacked, also did not happen. Now I know that it's late in the season, and that plans for a fifth season never took off. But I'm wondering if there were any small details in what Arthur was shown that might have eventually popped up in the fifth season.

Weak points of the story: It seemed to wrap up too quickly at the end, but this is only very minor, since I think that the real story was about Arthur's confrontation with Mordred in his dreams. I don't know if it was intentional to emulate "Future Tense" in the sense that it's so morbid it's fun, but it did its job quite well.

I'll have a few more comments later (there is something else I wanted to touch upon), but I need to turn in for right now.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Thursday, March 16, 2006 09:13:55 PM
IP: 69.174.3.196

Can anyone give me the current website of Spike's Rockaway? When I got to Rockaway.com I get a domain expired message. Thanks.
Starsinger
Thursday, March 16, 2006 08:35:09 PM
IP: 209.240.205.61

I was looking through the episode archive page for Gargoyles Season 1 and noticed several stories didn't list whose story concept it was.

Among them were:

Fallout, Part 1
Fallout, Part 2
To Restore Amends
Purchase to Dream
Two
Mutual Trust
Consequences
Reprisals Part 1
Reprisals Part 2
Reprisals Part 3

Can anybody fill me in as to who wrote the outlines for those stories and any other stories on the tgs website where no person is credited for the story concept (I can grab the concept of the practically the whole staff working on some outlines - which is what is listed for a few)?

dph
ar, usa
Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:12:12 AM
IP: 161.31.67.78

And Greg Weisman's Interview about the Gargoyles comic is up at the Comic Book Resources, if anyone wants to take a peek at some preview pages. *^_^*

http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6886

meows!
Mooncatx - [http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6886]
Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:20:32 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Lynati : I got your e-mail, and with any luck, you'll be getting a response by Saturday.
Spen
Tuesday, March 14, 2006 09:13:02 PM
IP: 216.248.119.208

SPEN - Looking forward to your review, then (and Harvester's).
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, March 14, 2006 08:17:42 AM
IP: 4.244.209.81

Hey kid.

We can very clearly see your IP address, and more to the point, that there is only one of you writing back and forth to yourself.

Furthermore, we do not appreciate you spamming this room. Please stop.
Anonymous
Tuesday, March 14, 2006 01:26:22 AM
IP: 69.150.72.196

how u doin... u goin 2ball
?
BOZ
Monday, March 13, 2006 11:30:01 PM
IP: 203.14.53.45

adrian is a faggot
wot else r u doin on the week end kylie?
Anonymous
Monday, March 13, 2006 11:29:49 PM
IP: 203.14.53.45

hey emmA

boz
Monday, March 13, 2006 11:29:20 PM
IP: 203.14.53.45

hey kylie

Anonymous
Monday, March 13, 2006 11:29:01 PM
IP: 203.14.53.45

Todd : It was a hoax? Too bad.

Greg B. : "Does the phrase, too much free time mean anything to you?" Hey, that's nothing compared to what I'm doing at the moment.

Harvester : About the Socitey, wait a couple of episodes.

Todd & Lain : Eh, Lynati's comment last friday was pretty clear, so I don't think we really need all the redundent messages about it.

Ed : "we wanted to make her a fifth regular in S5" Hmm, thanks for letting us know about that; I'll keep it in mind.

No Mercy : For once, I think I'll actually take a stab at commenting on this one, (after Harvester does his review anyway), seeing as how it was one of my favorite Pendragon eps.

Amazing, two posts in one week that are large enough for a pic.
Spen
Monday, March 13, 2006 10:15:57 PM
IP: 216.248.119.208

... just in case youre all wondering, no i havent forgotten to wipe the CR this week. were going to try out this 2-week thing, and see how it goes - and ill wipe the room next sunday evening.

as you were.
lain
Monday, March 13, 2006 10:04:10 PM
IP: 205.250.215.79

Thanks for the commentary, Ed.

(I might add that we had a still-earlier El Dorado story that also didn't work out for us. In it, after Arthur and his companions stumbled upon El Dorado while looking for the Grail, its inhabitants forbade them to leave because they feared the outside world and wanted to keep their location a secret. When Arthur and his companions tried to escape anyway, they were captured and sentenced to be sacrificed to a demon-monster that the people kept; it wound up with Arthur and his companions, in order to save themselves from the monster, destroying the spell that kept El Dorado golden, turning it into a dismal village of mud. Arthur was to be afterwards guilt-burdened over bringing this destruction down upon El Dorado, feeling that its citizens were only trying to protect themselves. However, we thought it over and realized that the thoroughly distrustful nature of the people of El Dorado in that story - not to mention their pet monster - would so alienate the readers from them that they wouldn't feel at all sorry for their downfall, and all the more so in light of the fact that "Gargoyles" had often made it clear that an attitude of suspicion and distrust towards others - such as that displayed by Demona and the New Olympians - was not a healthy one.)

The room's clearing has either been delayed or else we've already gone to its being cleared only once every two weeks. At any rate, Harvester, I hope that you'll post your review of "No Mercy" soon, and won't be scared off by the fact that the room hasn't been cleared yet.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, March 13, 2006 08:05:33 AM
IP: 4.244.209.43

Thanks to Todd for the heads up on this. :)

Harvester: Continuing to really enjoy your reviews. "Black and White" was probably the, or one of the, first story I pitched when we came to the 'global' part of the storyline (all that we had on the Bible when we got here was the rough notion of visiting three Grail sites: in the Pyrenees, Egypt with Sekhmet and the location of episode 21 so it really freed us up). You've really picked out all my favourite parts about the story. This was really an effort to beef up the kind of moral questions Arthur faced: the trouble is, if the challenges are too obvious it's not very dramatic and potentially just shallow, if they're too difficult then people might lose empathy with Arthur if they have a different view.

"Flight from the Enchanter" had a much more difficult birth. The original idea was to do El Dorado and there'd be a kind of culture clash between Arthur's gang and the natives, whereby they maintain the beauty and secrecy of their city by routinely sacrificing a volunteer -- the volunteer is treated with untold honour before his/her death. Another version of the script involved a less decadent motive after I saw a programme (link below) which took the thesis that the real wonder of the Amazon is the terra preta, an astonishingly fertile soil found in the region.

But for some reason, the story just didn't flow when I wrote it. I think it would have been great, but something just didn't feel right. Anyway, Todd had talked separately about wanting to do a story about a character from a fairly famous poem and that was the origin of the White Knight. If you can guess the poem, you might be able to guess why he's so interested in Manhattan. This was going to involve a multi-part story with big flashbacks and all sorts but I can't remember if I ever did a full outline before I left Gargoyles 4 (which was already pretty packed with story before). I don't know what's happening with Gargs 4 now though.

Since this was written quite late on, it was possible to add in a lot of things just to smooth out the arc of the series -- Jennifer and Montrose (we wanted to make her a fifth regular in S5), and Leonard Camford's visions (a leftover thread someone had in "Night of the Weird"). Also, lots of tilts of the head to other characters who hadn't turned up in a while as things shook out -- Macbeth, Duval etc.

"No Mercy" was actually added, I'm pretty sure I'm right in remembering, dead last. We wanted a 24th story and I wanted to do a kind of 'Mordred's Grail Quest' story. The alternate universe thing didn't really work, but the idea for the rest flowed quite quickly -- and, most excitingly for me, we got to do flashbacks to Arthur's original reign (which Todd supplied), something we didn't do nearly enough of IMO. Todd did a great job writing that one, too -- he's got Mordred's voice down perfectly. I think Mordred is Todd's evil twin or something. ;)

On the subject of TGS, it's good to see "Hungry Shadows" Part 3 up. I was going to wait until the whole thing was done to read it because... well... I figured I'd probably forget the beginning by the end. But I couldn't help sneaking a peak. It looks fun.
Ed
Taunton, England
Monday, March 13, 2006 05:29:43 AM
IP: 213.187.38.108

hi
amme
Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:43:33 PM
IP: 203.14.53.45

hi
amme
Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:43:32 PM
IP: 203.14.53.45

HARVESTER - Looking forward to reading your comments on "No Mercy".

I hope that I'm not trespassing on Ed's territory by saying this, but originally "Flight From the Enchanter" was going to be a story about Arthur and his companions finding El Dorado instead. However, we couldn't get the story to work, so finally Ed came up with the new story about the White Knight, and that one we were much happier with. I might say more, but I'd better find out first if Ed wants to be the one to comment on it, since "Flight From the Enchanter" was his story.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, March 12, 2006 07:18:24 PM
IP: 4.244.208.9

Time for more Pendragon comments. I guess these would be directed at Ed, since it says that he wrote "Flight From the Enchanter."

It's funny. I think that the title "Black and White" could easily have applied to this story as well. Basically because it illustrates that life, and a lot of the dilemmas contained therein, are mostly defined by shades of gray. I liked that parallel that was running between Arthur and Jennifer for most of the story. They each do what they think is right, but it's a lot more complicated than that.

And once again, the theme from the last story, about the ends not justifying the means, is called into question again. But this time, one has to wonder if the Grail Quest really would have been jeopardized if they had just left the White Knight and his people unmolested. If the innocent person sacrificed is a willing participant, does that make putting him to death evil? Especially since he's doing it for the benefit of others. It's an interesting puzzle, and I especially liked the dynamic it set up between Arthur and his charges, and how they were tied on whether or not Arthur should interfere. Very nice character moment from Mary: she doesn't agree with what Arthur wants to do, but she's still standing by him out of her sense of duty.

A few questions raised: we haven't seen much of the Illuminati on this quest. I would have thought a rogue agent would have acted out of place by now (since "Iris, Lily, and Rose" established that there are some members of the Society who act without approval from Duval). I find it curious that Duval knows of the White Knight and his entourage, and also that he told them to keep an eye out for Arthur. So it's good to know that at least they're still watching.

Also, the White Knight, for some reason, has to go to Manhattan. Makes me wonder who he really is.

I've actually finished reading "No Mercy," and will post on that later. But right now, I just wanted to say that everything I've read from "Black and White" onwards ("Fata Morgana" was very, very good, but I'm 50/50 on "Doomed." The things I enjoyed most about it were the confrontation between Mary and Sekhmet, those little character vignettes at the ending, and Merlin's discovery) has been awesome.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Sunday, March 12, 2006 11:37:21 AM
IP: 69.174.3.196

GXB - <Does the phrase, too much free time mean anything to you> Well, my college major involves computer programming, so I can count this towards spending time on my education.
dph
ar, usa
Sunday, March 12, 2006 02:54:44 AM
IP: 63.232.248.16

DPH> Does the phrase, too much free time mean anything to you?
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, March 11, 2006 06:25:33 PM
IP: 65.33.202.237

Current membership isn't even that easy- considering we haven't needed any of the people who only do art (Shauntell, Silver, Karen) in about a year, they've all been inactive. (Some of them since Pendragon 4) I'm 90% sure that Shauntell is still with us, but I'm honestly not sure if the others are still on board at them moment. (Again, at the moment, we don't need their skills.) And there isn't really a point in poking them and asking their status until we have work for them, as their anwser in the present may be different than their anwser by the time we need them.

*waxes philosophic* Are they current staff, inactive? Are they former staff, who would rise again to the call of TGS duty if asked? How many are like Mara, who has never been on staff but is a repeat guest-artist? How do you define who is "current"?
Lynati
Saturday, March 11, 2006 03:03:41 PM
IP: 69.150.72.196

Spen - The list I'm asking for is from the credits page, mainly who was on staff. It is easy enough to pull out the current membership, but pulling out the list of who was on staff in what order is going to be time consuming.
dph
ar, usa
Saturday, March 11, 2006 01:00:45 PM
IP: 63.232.249.105

Sorry, Spen, but that news report has since turned out to be a hoax (and one which will probably wind up embarrassing its perpetrator the way that H. L. Mencken's phony history of the bathtub did to him).
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, March 11, 2006 08:09:09 AM
IP: 4.244.213.5

Shinigami isn't technically on staff. She just does guest art for us from time to time. I'm not sure how many of the others that applies to by way of guest writers/artists, but Gunjack most certainly *is* on staff.
Lynati
Saturday, March 11, 2006 05:09:40 AM
IP: 69.150.72.196

DPH's Hologram : Well, according to the credits page, there have been 89 people on the staff. However, Aimee Major, Gunjack, Shinigami, and Deuce aren't listed, and I know that they either are or have been on the staff. I'm not sure how one could get a complete list.

Incidently, click my name for a rather interesting news report.
Spen
Saturday, March 11, 2006 04:44:36 AM
IP: 216.248.119.208

*crosses fingers that dph's recent actions didn't/won't cause a server crash.*

The above is a story for another day, down the road.

For the sake of curiosity (as if there is no hidden motive behind this question), how many people do you think have been on tgs staff over the years? No, dph has no clue what the answer is, but he does plan on doing a count within a couple of weeks. He is willing to hand out cybercookies to anybody who can provide the correct answer and a bonus is promised if the person can prove the answer is correct (ie. a complete list of names, sorted alphabetically by 1st appearance in the credits page). This bonus is something beyond cybercookies and will cost dph some money.
dph's hologram
ar, usa
Saturday, March 11, 2006 03:29:42 AM
IP: 63.232.223.216

I just have a general thought about the Pendragon series, the way that Greg had had it mapped out. I'm wondering if he's ever hinted at ASK GREG just who it was that trained Merlin in the use of his powers. As we see in "The Gathering," if a half-blood doesn't start young, they lose most of their potential. But Oberon strikes me as being someone who would not be the best teacher in the world, not even to his own son.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Friday, March 10, 2006 10:07:44 PM
IP: 69.174.3.196

Harvester : Hmm, did you maybe have it set to size 10?

Lynati : Thanks!
Spen
Friday, March 10, 2006 07:00:17 PM
IP: 216.248.119.208

Learned something interesting in class today. Yet another exhibit on the tragedy of the human condition. Apparently, Geico's Claims Department has gotten phone calls from people who have analyzed their commercials. Apparently, someone once called the company and said that in the ad where the gecko is driving his red convertible, he's not wearing a seatbelt.

Well, the one good thing out of this is that I think it might have inspired me to write my first fanfic. I'll know soon enough.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Friday, March 10, 2006 04:55:04 PM
IP: 69.174.3.196

*Waves at Shara* I'm glad you liked Hungry Shadows. And that's a beautiful job done on the Hellsing piece; I'm glad you got an inker to match the coloring work. By the way, I thought Disney had a "suitable for children" restriction on your material?
( For those who missed it: http://www.ka-blamo.com/gargs/hellsing.html )

Spen: Email sent!

Gunjack: [really, seriously, for real this time, this will be the end.] ...the end of Hungry Shadows, anyway. Not of the plot lines set up by the story. ]; )

Harvester of Eyes: I was responding to Rightsider's "they actually called it that" remark. Demmie refers to the Grey Eye as the Graeae's Eye. She is the only one who calls it that, and deliberately so.

Lynati
Friday, March 10, 2006 12:28:02 PM
IP: 69.150.72.196

Spen: For some reason, my Print Preview only lists it as 88 pages. Guess it's a difference of operating systems.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Friday, March 10, 2006 06:44:45 AM
IP: 69.174.3.196

At the risk of tempting fates, the ip address of our good friend in Perth, Australia, has now been added to the ban list. Hopefully we won't be seeing any more from them.

[to be concluded] the first one has always said, "to be continued". Part two was ended with "concluded" because there was only supposed to be a part three. I changed part two to read "continued" when we put up part 3, but apparently it didn't save. The file has now been corrected.

Small notice, we might be changing the CR wiping shcedule to every two weeks, due to the low percentage of weekly posts as compared to even just two years ago.


Lynati
Thursday, March 9, 2006 10:08:57 PM
IP: 69.150.72.196

Lady Mystic/Fire Storm - I sent a vi info message to you. Please read and respond very quickly.
dph
ar, usa
Thursday, March 9, 2006 10:04:26 PM
IP: 63.232.251.60

Oh carp, more idiot trolls.

Gunjack : Hmm, then why was "The Darkest Hour part two" 95 pages?

Speaking of trolls, does anyone know if the Galvatron who was advertising that "Gargoyles collectable card game" is the same Galvatron who was trolling the fandom for several years?
Spen
Thursday, March 9, 2006 09:39:12 PM
IP: 216.248.119.208

i cant believe she went to the physc
Anonymous
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:58:46 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

kylies a crack hore
Anonymous
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:57:03 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

haha hi

kylie
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:55:30 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

awsum!
Anonymous
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:48:05 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

hh
Anonymous
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:48:01 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

emma u sexy thing!!! im so fricken tired ahah we got this 1 goin lol go us
kylie
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:47:31 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

like my email? wot ya doin on the wkend? i wonder wot the gargoyle saga thingy is?

Anonymous - [kiss_my_ass@hotmail.com]
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:47:15 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

mm this is fun ay. business will be awesome now lol
Anonymous
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:46:03 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

am i purple?

Anonymous
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:45:58 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

its awsum!
Anonymous
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:45:13 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

thats hell harsh! how long do u reckon it will take her to get over it?
Anonymous
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:43:22 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

we were sayin that we r gona make up another email up 4 leila lol n call it... blakesnotreal@hotmail.com
kylie
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:42:35 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

its funny coz we can hell bitch bout ne1 without them noing
emma
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:40:23 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

we r soooo cool haha

kylie
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:39:52 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

hiya kyles

emma
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:39:20 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

hey emma

kylie
Thursday, March 9, 2006 08:39:05 PM
IP: 203.14.53.46

Spen - Thanks for the review! It's always good to hear what people thought of it. :)

**********SPOILER WARNING FOR HS PART 3************

<<...and is it just me, or their comments in the beginning even more bloodthirsty then in part two? >> As with hornets, poking the nest is a baaaad idea....

<<I was a bit surprised by Fiona's 'Our Father who art in Heaven' line; she didn't strike me as being particurly religous in part two (or maybe I'm just blind).>> Well, they are a fine Scottish family of ancient stock, dedicated to battling a Demon from Hell... Some religion (if not morality) is bound to come with the territory, and being moments away from horrible death at the hands of the minions of darkness tends to bring that sort of thing to the fore...

<<it seems to me that Kappel is missing the first toe on his right foot.>> Man, but those Kin of his *do* have a powerful appetite... ;)

<I'm not even going to begin to guess about the dream. I'm *always* wrong, so I'll keep my mouth shut. >> Aww, but wild guesses are half the fun!

<<"To be concluded": exact same words that part two ended with. Rather confident aren't we?>> Thanks for reminding me; I went back and fixed that in part 2 last night. in any case, 30 pages is the nominal TGS story-length, and for these, we start splitting whern they exceed 60. Currently, I'm estimating part 4 at around, oh... 40 or so, the vast majority of which is already written. really, seriously, for real this time, this will be the end.

Peace!
gunjack "Lilly Liver" Valentine
Thursday, March 9, 2006 07:46:47 PM
IP: 205.250.215.79

Spen: Possible, but I doubt it. Shadow is my preferred element, but I can still tolerate the light without any magical aids. Plus, I don't eat human flesh. Not because I hate the taste, mind you, but because there's no nourishment from eating your own kind.

But on the other hand, there's a good chance I was conceived as the result of demon-rape. If that's the case, then having cursed blood in my veins, I might be distantly related to those things. But I don't feel like asking them.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Thursday, March 9, 2006 05:11:22 PM
IP: 69.174.3.196

Hey, folks!

A preliminary list of Fan Panels, needing Fan Panelists to sign up for them, has now been posted at the Gathering 2006 Forums!

Clickie my name or go to:
http://gatheringofthegargoyles.com/phpBB2/index.php
and look under "General Gathering Discussions."

Don't delay, volunteer today!
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Thursday, March 9, 2006 04:47:00 AM
IP: 70.56.94.10

My apologies for the triple post.

***MORE SPOILERS FOR PART THREE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED***

I'm not even going to begin to guess about the dream. I'm *always* wrong, so I'll keep my mouth shut.

Maybe I'm just warped, demented and sick, but I prefer Kappel as a villain. He's more...interesting. And fun. I hope he's still around.

Love the final pic.

"To be concluded": exact same words that part two ended with. Rather confident aren't we?

Incidently, is part four going to have the white on black text too? I hope so.

The writing was wonderful throughout this ep, even moreso then in part two.

Thumbs-up to the editor of this ep, since other then 'alright' I didn't spot any errors in the text.

The wrap-up : Yet another exellent episode, and hopefully part four will be coming out soon. Given the quality of the previous parts, I have no doubt that you'll be able to improve even on this ep. 9.9/10 soley because I don't belive in perfection.

***END SPOILERS***

Lynati : Incidently, (I'm using that word a lot tonight aren't I?) not to be a pain, but am I ever going to get that e-mail?
Spen
Thursday, March 9, 2006 01:13:20 AM
IP: 216.248.119.208

I forgot to say 'end of spoilers' at the end of that last post, sorry about that.
Spen
Wednesday, March 8, 2006 09:58:24 PM
IP: 216.248.119.208

Gaah, *finally* got some time to kill, so here's my review. It may be disjointed in places, because I'm writing it while re-reading the episode, and I only have a few minutes to write this, so it may be incomplete. (And sitting here talking about it doesn't give me any more time, so without further ado, here it is.)

***REVIEW FOR "HUNGRY SHADOWS PART THREE. WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS.***

Hmm, are the Bone Eaters any relation to Harvester? (j/k) Anyway, once again, masterful work on the Bone Eaters, and is it just me, or their comments in the beginning even more bloodthirsty then in part two?

I was a bit surprised by Fiona's 'Our Father who art in Heaven' line; she didn't strike me as being particurly religous in part two (or maybe I'm just blind).

I liked the first pic, but I do have a small nitpick: it seems to me that Kappel is missing the first toe on his right foot. (Or at least, it's no larger then the rest of his toes.) Just a really minor complaint.

The king of the Bone Eaters was an interesting charactor, even creepier then his 'children'. Good job on him.

It's very...refreshing to see Demona as a villiness again.

Ack, I'm out of time. I'll finish this in a couple of hours.
Spen
Wednesday, March 8, 2006 09:57:23 PM
IP: 216.248.119.208

Lynati: Demona does what? ( ;

*shoulders his bag and heads off to the gutter to try and locate his mind*
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Wednesday, March 8, 2006 07:46:11 PM
IP: 69.174.3.196

Yup, Demona does. ; )


Gunjack: Both Emambu and Steph have been to visit in the last week. It makesa good excuse. Plus, I'm finally feeling inspired to do more work, which I think has to do with the nice positive feedback we've been getting from the black hole of despair. I mean HS3.

Lynati
Wednesday, March 8, 2006 01:03:53 PM
IP: 69.150.72.196

That should be, "PS".
V
Wednesday, March 8, 2006 02:57:55 AM
IP: 205.250.215.79

Rightsider - Very astute, even with Demona's help. ;)

Murazor - ...and with that info, the Scroll, Sword, and Crown shouldn't be too hard...

<<Most odd.>> All I'll say about that is that it has to do with who's doing the telling, what they see, and what they care to show.

Lynati><<Oh, hey, lain. Gunjack. I'm back on the ball.>> Me too. All healed up and ready to roll, thanks to the magic of nyquil. See ya round, cowboy.

PA - What gotcha off the WoW?
Gunjack "Gomu Gomu" Valentine
Wednesday, March 8, 2006 02:42:29 AM
IP: 205.250.215.79

Lynati>>[*Hands Rightsider a chocolate-chip cookie* ] Thanks. *Takes cookie and pours a glass of cyber-milk*

Incidentally, they actually called it "the Graeae's Eye" in Part II.
Rightsider
Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:47:18 PM
IP: 24.111.112.199

*Hands Rightsider a chocolate-chip cookie*

I think more people would have gotten it quicker if it hadn't taken us a year to get part 3 out.

Oh, hey, lain. Gunjack. I'm back on the ball (at least for the moment.) Pantheon portion of the Biograph Project to start with; I think I can whack out the bulk of the remaining big ones in the next few days. Today, Japan; Tomorrow, the world!
Lynati
Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:25:36 PM
IP: 69.150.72.196

If procrastination ever becomes a crime I'm done for. I *still* haven't gotten my review out. And it doesn't look like It'll be out for a few more days. My apologies to the staff for the delay.

Forgot to say this last week : Gunjack: Congrats!

Greg B. : "this marks the first time the voices of the entire Manhattan Clan will be assembled at The Gathering!" Technically, since Frank Welkor isn't coming, the 'entire' Manhattan Clan won't be present.

Spen
Tuesday, March 7, 2006 10:34:42 PM
IP: 216.248.119.208

Rightsider> You win at TGS! :D
Lain
Tuesday, March 7, 2006 08:44:17 PM
IP: 205.250.215.79

Lynati>>[As to who the three are, there are some very obvious clues...in the first two stories. ; )I hope some people do go back and re-read them, I'd like to see it figured out.]

I picked up on it before they even posted part three. It wasn't really that hard to figure out.

I'm not sure if this qualifies as a spoiler, so:

**************Possible Spoiler******************























They trio are the Graeae. Really old ladies who share a single eye and tooth. The Seer's stone is obviously their eye.













***************End possible spoiler*******************


Rightsider
Tuesday, March 7, 2006 05:15:41 PM
IP: 24.111.112.199

The Clan's All Here! Gathering 2007 Bids! Convention
Schedule! Banquet Menu! Contests! Dates to Remember!

NEW GUESTS:

The Gathering staff is delighted to announce the addition of Jeff
Bennett, Bill Fagerbakke, and Jamie Thomason to the guest roster for
the Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles. As "Gargoyles" fans
know, Jeff is the voice of Brooklyn, Bill is the voice of Broadway,
and Jamie voice-directed the entire "Gargoyles" cast. Together with
Keith David (Goliath), Thom Adcox (Lexington), Edward Asner (Hudson),
and Brigitte Bako (Angela), and schedules permitting, this marks the
first time the voices of the entire Manhattan Clan will be assembled
at The Gathering!

To view the full Gathering 2006 guest list, please visit:
http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/guests.html

There will be many unique opportunities to mingle with the guests.
Some will be sign-up events, with first-come, first-serve
availability. All will require you to be a member of the Gathering of
the Gargoyles to participate. Don't miss out. Register now!

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/registration.html

THE GATHERING 2007 – CALL FOR BIDS

It's time once again for you, the fans, to decide where the next
Gathering of the Gargoyles will take place. If you are interested in
placing a bid for The Gathering 2007, now is the time to assemble your
convention staff and put your proposal together. For complete bidding
rules and guidelines, please visit the Gathering 2007 Bid Information
page at:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/g2007-bids.html

The deadline for bid submissions is March 31, 2006, so please don't
delay! The Gathering 2007 depends on you!

CONVENTION SCHEDULE:

This is the time of year when many of our attendees begin making their
travel arrangements. To assist with that, we have posted a tentative
convention schedule that details when the Gathering's keynote events
are happening. To view this schedule, please visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/schedule.html

The Gathering 2006 will run for four full days, from Friday, June 23
to Monday, June 26, 2006. To ensure that you won't miss a single
minute of the fun, plan to arrive at the Hyatt Valencia Hotel before
noon on Friday, and plan to depart no earlier than Monday afternoon.

Don't forget to reserve your hotel room, as well! A block of rooms
has been set aside for us, but they won't last forever! For detailed
information on our hotel, please visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/hotel.html

BANQUET:

We are pleased to announce that a menu has been selected for the
traditional Sunday evening Gathering event, the Banquet and Guest Q&A!

Please join us for a delicious dinner under California skies in the
Hyatt Valencia's spectacular Rose Garden! A special guest will be
seated at every table, making this an event you won't want to miss.
After the meal, a special Q&A session will allow attendees to ask our
guests any questions they didn't get a chance to ask during Saturday
and Sunday's panel sessions.

Banquet tickets are only $65.00 and can be purchased through June 3,
2006. Don't miss out as we dine with the stars in unforgettable and
lavish style! To reserve your place, please visit our Registration
page at:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/registration.html

NAME THE MASCOT CONTEST:

The Gathering Staff wishes to thank everyone who submitted name
suggestions for our mascot. After careful deliberation, the
Convention Staff has selected the name "Mulholland," which was
submitted by Jayme Headlee.

ANTHOLOGY CONTEST:

The Gathering of the Gargoyles is proud to present, once again, an
anthology of all-new and original fan work! Following up on 2004's
Phoenix Gate Anthology and 2005's Eye of Odin Anthology, we're
completing the trilogy with the third infamous artifact in the set…
the Grimorum Arcanorum!

For over a thousand years, this ancient tome has made its way into the
hands of one villain after another and caused untold mischief with its
magic. But where did it come from? Who else has thumbed its fragile
pages over the centuries? What spells and secret lore are contained
within its leather binding?

The time has come to answer some of those questions. And you can help!
The Grimorum Arcanorum Anthology is accepting submissions of stories
and artwork to appear in a limited-edition paperback book that will
debut at the Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles,
California.

Deadlines for entries are March 31, 2006 for stories and April 15,
2006 for artwork. For complete rules and guidelines, please visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/anthology.html

ART SHOW:

Attention all artists! The Art Show is filling up fast! We have only
a few more display spaces available, and once they are gone we will be
unable to accept any more Art Show registrations. The fee for panel
or table space is only $10, and artists of all ages and abilities are
welcome to participate. For more information, please visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/art-show.html

HELP PROMOTE THE GATHERING:

We don't want a single "Gargoyles" fan to be unaware of The Gathering
2006, and we're looking for a few good fans to help us spread the
word! If you will be attending a convention in the near future,
please let us know about it and take a few copies our flyer along. To
download the most recent version of the flyer, please visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/flyers/gathering-flyer2.pdf

If you have a web site, Livejournal, or regularly post to message
boards, there's another way you can help! Just choose a banner
graphic or link button from our web site, download it, and add it to
your web page, online journal, or message board signature line. For
details, visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/links.html

DATES TO REMEMBER:

March 31, 2006 – The last day to take advantage of the current
membership rates of $45.00 for adults and $25.00 for children ages 10
through 14 (accompanied by an adult).

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/registration.html

March 31, 2006 – Deadline for story entries in the Grimorum Arcanorum
Anthology Contest.
April 15, 2006 – Deadline for art entries in the Grimorum Arcanorum
Anthology Contest.

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/anthology.html

May 22, 2006 – Deadline for hotel reservations at the Hyatt Valencia
to receive the Gathering's discounted block rate.

June 3, 2006 – Deadline for Art Show Registration

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/art-show.html

June 23 – 25, 2006 – The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles.


Questions? Comments? Contact us at: staff@gatheringofthegargoyles.com

- The Gathering 2006 Staff
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Monday, March 6, 2006 07:05:26 PM
IP: 65.33.202.237

HARVESTER - Thanks for your comments on "Black and White". I very much enjoyed writing it, particularly Mary's becoming better acquainted with the Fenris-wolf, and Arthur and Fenris having a "custody battle" over her.

And keep on reading; the next story is going to be an especially big one.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, March 6, 2006 06:16:03 PM
IP: 4.244.18.30

Murazor: <This Demona is not the mellowed version that appears in the late series or the Saga stories.> If by "late series," you're referring to the canonical episodes, I don't think Demona was exactly mellow in any of those. Her first reaction upon regaining consciousness in a cell in "The Reckoning" is to lunge at her daughter! Then of course, there's the whole trying to kill every man, woman and child on Earth with a plague.

I know that the Praying Gargoyle has been used or referenced a bunch of times in the TGS Ficverse. It played a small role in "From the Heart." So to clarify what was in my last post, I was referring to the Praying Gargoyle's intended use in the ficverse, since it made a very small appearance in the first 66 episodes.


Okay, now on to Pendragon comments. First of all, I liked the symbolism intended by the title "Black and White," most evident in the character of the Fenris-wolf. Even though he was used by the Unseelies during the war, by the end of the story, I got a sense that his main reason for doing that was not out of any love for the Unseelie Court, but simply because he'd spent several millenia in solitude and was just glad to be doing something that would relieve his boredom. And it was the same thing with the spell he tried to cast on Mary. The ends didn't justify the means, but since he's essentially got no one to talk to until the end of time, one sees how desperation would drive him to try and do what he did. The symbolism is also put to good use with the discovery that the fort had originally been used by Nazis, which ultimately makes Arthur decide not to use whatever knowledge was stored there. It might help them in their quest, but again, would the ends justify the means?

Also of note was the conversation between Fenris and Mary. I'd never stopped to consider it unusual that Mary would turn into a wolf (unusual in the context that she could have turned into any one of the three creatures on the figurine). I'm wondering if this knowledge might be put to use later. And finally, that very touching moment when Arthur thinks that he's killed Mary. Ever since I read "Fata Morgana," I have an urge to glance back through the series and find moments hinting at this bond that the two of them seem to be forming. I'll have to do that after I've finished.

As a quick aside, I think Cole referenced an event that is supposed to take place in Gargoyles, Season 4. He says that Aurora is with Goliath and his clan in Manhattan, which is also where Arthur and his knight, squire and mentor arrive in Antartica from.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Monday, March 6, 2006 04:58:01 PM
IP: 69.174.3.196

Eleventh... Oooog, so sick... x.x
Gunjack "stuffy" Valentine
Monday, March 6, 2006 03:46:55 PM
IP: 205.250.215.79

Lynati the new story is really good. I enjoyed it.

Gargoyle webomic update.
As you know we have been working on turning gargoyle fanfiction into comic books online. A project that has been going on for awhile. With new staff, and actully help from disney we have launched issue one.

Take a look and let us know what you want to see in future issues. We will have a new issue up the first weekend of every month.

http://www.ka-blamo.com/gargs

Check out the archives to see next months hellsing anime cover.

Shara
Monday, March 6, 2006 03:08:48 PM
IP: 4.246.215.122

9th!!
dph
ar, usa
Monday, March 6, 2006 01:49:36 PM
IP: 63.232.249.41

...which is not to say that Murazor isn't correct on other points. XD
Lynati
Monday, March 6, 2006 11:57:22 AM
IP: 69.150.72.196

It's really gratifying to see people posting at length about Hungry Shadows. I'm glad you all seem to be enjoying it. : )

For the "new trio", Todd has it over Murazor- TGS *is* sticking with the Weisman theory that they comprise the Fates/Graces/Furies, including the fates in pretty much all of their triplicate incarnations.

As to who the three are, there are some very obvious clues...in the first two stories. ; ) I hope some people do go back and re-read them, I'd like to see it figured out. 'twould be nifty to have soem sort of reward for it, but as we don't have anything to give, the standard virtual chocolate-chip cookie will have to do.
Lynati
Monday, March 6, 2006 11:56:28 AM
IP: 69.150.72.196

While I haven't done more than skim Part Three yet (mainly out of curiosity about the "Gollum-ish" element of the ghouls' talk about rabbits that somebody here mentioned), I doubt that the "imprisoned fay" would be the Fates/Norns (assuming that these are new characters), since that's supposed to be one of the Weird Sisters' roles (alongside the Furies and the Graces). I'll have to look over the story more closely before I can make any guesses as to their identity, however.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, March 6, 2006 08:05:45 AM
IP: 4.244.215.130

***THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILERS ABOUT HUNGRY SHADOWS 3, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED***

Gunjack- Pleased to please you ;-)
...
In retrospect, that sentence sounds somewhat odd. :~|

I have had time to polish my theories a little and now I can safely say that I still have no idea about most of the vision. The mentioned Greek connection, however, suggests that the imprisoned Fey are not the Norns, but the Moirae (Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos). I still have to puzzle out the grove scene. We have a likely Athena, confronting a sage (scroll), a warrior (sword) and a queen? (crown).

Also, the red eyes and "bronze wings" of sage and warrior suggest female gargoyle, yet Bouchard doesn't seem to acknowledge any connection with Demona. Most odd.

Harvester- Having read all of Pendragon, I think that we can safely rule out the Holy Grail. That's all I will say about this particular.

About Demona, I rather enjoyed the secrecy sorrounding her in previous chapters, when we only had glimpses of her and the characters witnessed the path of destruction left in her wake. At this point, she was still a remorseless monster willing to kill at a whim. This Demona is not the mellowed version that appears in the late series or the Saga stories.

As for the Praying Gargoyle, I read a while back in the Ask Greg Archives about the crossover they had prepared with Team Atlantis. There was something about the Gargoyle having an Atlantean crystal inside. As good an answer as you are going to get for the canon universe, although I don't remember if this has been explored in the Saga.
Murazor - [critogar@yahoo.es]
SpainMonday, March 6, 2006 06:43:13 AM
IP: 193.144.197.164

Fifth!
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Monday, March 6, 2006 06:28:08 AM
IP: 69.174.3.196

FORE! bounces off the gargolye statue and into the hole -- odd I dont remember seeing a gargoyle statue there....
silvadel
Monday, March 6, 2006 04:08:33 AM
IP: 24.149.178.180

Third!
Spen
Monday, March 6, 2006 02:41:58 AM
IP: 216.248.119.208

OOOoooo not eleveneth...SECOND!!
Dezi
Monday, March 6, 2006 01:48:28 AM
IP: 68.57.227.51

OOOoooo not eleveneth...SECOND!!
Dezi
Monday, March 6, 2006 01:47:57 AM
IP: 68.57.227.51

FIRST!
Greg Bishansky
Monday, March 6, 2006 01:44:38 AM
IP: 65.33.202.237