Web Site   Mirror Site   Current Episode   Staff
The Gargoyles Saga Comment Room
Add Post   This Week   Text-Only   Archive   Information   Rules   Admins   Members

----

Taleweaver - <I find it hard to believe Congress would pass such a bill. The gargoyles just aren't that numerous to merit that kind attention. Goliath's and the Labryinth clan live in NYC. At most a couple of representatives and the two New York senators would find get involved. Try explaining to a senator in Wyoming why this issue is more important what he's got cooking.> Ok, but if that's small to the US congress, explain how/why in heck the UN takes the matter up?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Taleweaver:<Try explaining to a senator in Wyoming why this issue is more important what he's got cooking.> I'm sure Goliath could at least get the backing of the ACLU and that group has definitely the clout and to pull off such a bill. And if you don't think the ACLU will try then you're out of your mind!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!

Fun week. Would have been pretty quiet if a third of the national call center hadn't taken vacation, or a couple big things they're trying to sell to/demonstrate.

Belated congratulations for Archwolf.

Taleweaver> <<I don't know if anyone who posts here was able to attend>>: In interesting bit that wasn't really elaborated on (it was more about mechanics than characterization) was the contrast between the Archmage, who had to be explicitly taught how to use time travel to help himself, and Bill and Ted (and an unnamed protaganist of Gregs) that realize themselves that in the future they can always go back to the past to help themselves.

And with all this alternate timeline discussion, who can name the creator of this idea: The Trousers of Time.

DPH> <<It branched off from the canon universe where it assumed a different set of history had occured>>: How about some Heisenberg: Does something not branch until differences have been observed?

Gunjack> <<If a subject can use symbols to convey or describe abstract concepts, that's good enough for me>>: Turing?
<<dead and corpsified>>: So you're a philosophical zombie? Sorry, just ran across the term in the wikipedia entry on sentience.
<<It's BOOOOOOOO time!>>: I can't help but think that a clown, a cleric, and a recluse is a good start to a story, but I couldn't think of what kind of story it would be.
<<Repeating themselves, tyhen>>: Probably just the self similarity of folk songs. I think Hangin' Johnny's got some history behind it.
<<I Pirate ye was meant to be, matey>>: That you, though I'm not sure who I should be on the watch out for more: monkeys, robots, or ninjas. Though since I am a EE pirate, I probably don't have much to worry about from robots.
<<Vertical Thrust>>: You dirty, dirty man.

Dezi> <<But why is all the rum gone?>>: Sounds like you've got a pirate infestation. Though I promise it wasn't me.

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Sentience> A legal definition must include capacity more than actual deeds. I think awareness would be a higher priority than abstract concepts. If you can demonstrate you know who you are in relation to the world around you I think that put you ahead of communication abstractions. By that defination a computer with web access is sentient.

A story idea I always kicked around was the Goliath won citizenship and basic human rights through the court. I find it hard to believe Congress would pass such a bill. The gargoyles just aren't that numerous to merit that kind attention. Goliath's and the Labryinth clan live in NYC. At most a couple of representatives and the two New York senators would find get involved. Try explaining to a senator in Wyoming why this issue is more important what he's got cooking.

Rightstrider> If these alternate worlds don't meet, why do you need to know whether its canon or not? It seems you can write the story up or down. As long as it is a good story it doesn't matter how near or far to canon it lies.

Taleweaver
Honor those the dragons heed in thought and favor word and deed

Gunjack: That was both the funniest and most frustrating post I've ever read. lol. I had to read it three times before I "translated" it. I _think_ I got your point. :)

"The Yoy abides" Yoy is something of a nickname I got from some Spanish speaking friends that decided that it sounded good. The entire phrase was a play on the Big Lebowsky, which I saw before I started sigging that. :) I like this new one better.

Dezi
But why is all the rum gone?

Annie: According to Greg Weisman, Yama and Sora were mates, despite Sora being from the next rookery hatched after Yama.
Lynati

Dezi><<What about naked humans that don't have a written language. Like jungle peoples or something? (just being devil's advocate) :)>>

Well now, I ain't hoid yet of a humanical enclave that didn't have some form o' language... I don't reckon it needs to be written, as just the act of assaigning arbitrarian values to specific abstractifications would fit the requarments pretty as a pink bow...

And as for the nekkidness, I'm not sayin' fellow sentients got to go genufletivicatin' at the alters o' fashion afor I'll respect their brainpower; after all, we was all nekkid in the Garden, wernt we? And lawd knows you could put slacks on a robot or cactus or the Washington Monument, if it come down to that.

All I be sayin' is dat if a chappie's gone to the trouble of girdin' his own loins with silks or leaves or even a thin layer o' pigment, he's prolly got just enough wits in his head to spare a few in a palaver with me.

By the by, what is "Yoy" precisely, and why's it abidin'?

Gside><<and don't believe the plebes should be plugged up with plebiscite.>> You can't make me say it! you cant! ....oh, fine.
Trim the trad, go troglodyte! It's BOOOOOOOO time!!!
<<Well, first I hanged me mother.>> Repeating themselves, tyhen. First thin I thought of from that quote was "And it's Go, Boys, Go!" from Chemical Worker...

Liked the Gathering pictures, too. I Pirate ye was meant to be, matey... ;)

And I'm gone!

Gunjack "Vertical Thrust" Valentine
You'll pay twenty when you should pay ten, and ten when you should pay five, and you'll pay five when it should be free, just as sure as you're alive! - The Devil, "New GRAW Levels"

Rightsider - < I thought the U.N. was supposed to do that...but I like your version better.> No, this happens before the UN does its thing. There's no way the UN is going to do squat until a clear majority of the 'civilized' countries recognize gargoyles as sentient or at least give gargoyles some sort of special protection. In my mind, I would hope the US is the 2nd human contemporary government to recognize gargoyles as sentient. But, if that happens before New Camelot is established, I would be suprised. I figure the Sentient Species Amendment would take 4-6 years (at least) to get through Congress once a Senator/Representative has the gots to introduce it. The Environmentalist Whackos would love the guy while the Quarrymen work to get whoever 1st proposed it defeated in the next election (or otherwise removed from office).

I view New Camelot being established as a government by 2016 (within 20 years of King Arthur being awakened from Avalon). I view this Sentient Species Amendment being passed sometime in 2040s through 2060s - although I gather the UN does it thing within Goliath's/Brooklyn's lifetime in the present. I'd say the Sentient Species Amendment was passed at least a decade before the UN does anything until a majority of countries recognize gargoyles as sentient.

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Wow, quite a bit's changed since I posted last, but i'm sure that's been discussed, so i'll move on. Just a quick question. Does anyone remember from the Episode "Bushido" on the world tour if Yama had a mate? And if so was it Sora? Cuz I know at least Sora doesnt' go with Kai, or at least that's how it is according to Spike... Anywho, if anyone knows anything, please let me know.
Annie - [sky_warrior17@hotmail.com]

Gunjack: What about naked humans that don't have a written language. Like jungle peoples or something? (just being devil's advocate) :)
Dezi
The Yoy abides..

dph_of_rules: {For all we know it could have been one-sided: Queen Mab vs Everybody else} Greg confirmed that it was definitely a war. But then again, he also hinted that he doesn't consider "Ask Greg" canon on at least one occasion, so that may not by the case (but most likely is).

{But tgs already drifted far apart just from what little we know from Ask Greg.} Yes. But this depends on whether or not Ask Greg is canon. When I made my original statement, I was using only the sixty-six TV episodes and the current issue of the comic series. If these are considered to be the entirety of the canon, there are no problems as of yet (but there will be--that's the risk of writing fanfiction for an ongoing series). If "Ask Greg" is included, then of course the two worlds have been separate for a very long time. I said as much about three or four posts ago.

It's not really important anyway. It doesn't really matter when the timeline diverged, the point is that it's a separate world *now.*

{The US Congress passes (and the president signs) a sentient species amendment giving some government agency the ability to decide which species are sentient and thus can become US citizens} I thought the U.N. was supposed to do that...but I like your version better. Never did like the idea of the U.N. being able to pass laws. After all, it's members are SOVERIEGN entities.

By the way, what are they amending? Consitutional amendments don't require a presidential signature, so presumably there's already a law on the books.

{Oh yea, here's a challenge: can anybody work up a simple, legal definition of what would make a species sentient?}

I can't think up anything that would be simple or legally acceptable. Me and my sister define "sentience" as the presence of an immortal soul (eternal afterlife). We pretty much assume that the intelligent aliens on sci-fi/fantasy shows have a such a soul, so that definition works for us--though we do disagree on androids.

But since the soul is non-physical, it's existance can't be proven or disproven. Therefore it's useless as a legal basis. If anyone's got a better idea, I'd be glad to hear it.

Rightsider

DPH><<Oh yea, here's a challenge: can anybody work up a simple, legal definition of what would make a species sentient?>>

Easy as pie, good sir. If a subject can use symbols to convey or describe abstract concepts, that's good enough for me. Another good indicator would be whether they wear clothes. ;)

Gunjack "dead and corpsified" Valentine
Is your aim sabotage, sir? - Annarchy

Rightsider - <In other words, Greg's Unseelie War (starring Queen Mab) will naturally trump TGS's Unseelie War (Starring Madoc),> But that's just it: you're assuming there was a war. For all we know it could have been one-sided: Queen Mab vs Everybody else. <Now that the canon is expanding, TGS will drift farther and farther away as more and more of its stories are directly contradicted by canon> But tgs already drifted far apart just from what little we know from Ask Greg. Duval is Percival in canon; in tgs, it's Lancelot. In canon, Duval has the Holy Grail; in tgs, the Fisher King (a different character from Duval) did. I think tgs did a pretty good of extrapolating the general idea of where things were headed after the Journy. Certain big events from tgs I think happenned in the canon universe, but with different details.

Example 1: I believe a group (independent of Goliath & company or Xanatos) compiled a through list of gargoyle clans living in present day times and somehow Goliath & company got a hold of that list.

Example 2: I believe there was world-wide gargoyle persecution in the present day.

Example 3: This world-wide gargoyle persecution leads to the 1st (at least contemporary - I can't be sure if sometime in the past there wasn't a world-wide meeting of all gargoyles) meeting of all gargoyle clans from around the world. I can't see anything short of world-wide gargoyle persecution getting Goliath to think about wanting leaders of all gargoyle clans from around the world to meet. I would say this 1st meeting occurs in relatively present times because by 2198 , leaders from the various gargoyle clans around the world trust each other enough to donate eggs to start a new clan. That kind of trust to put your clan's eggs in the hand of strangers takes time to build as in decades of communication leading to trust gradually being built.

Example 4: Unless I miss my guess when the government of New Camelot is founded (off by decades), I'm willing to bet it's the 1st human contemporary government to grant gargoyles full rights as citizens. (I know it hasn't happenned yet in tgs, but I know that's an event that happenns in both universes).

Example 5: The US Congress passes (and the president signs) a sentient species amendment giving some government agency the ability to decide which species are sentient and thus can become US citizens. (I can't see Congress in this amendment agreeing to language which defines a species as sentient - it would be too complex a definition - instead passing the buck to a government agency to define what makes a species as sentient is ruled as the safe compromise) (I can see environmentalist whackos trying to define this as broad as possible to include species that shouldn't be considered sentient while Quarrymen type groups try to define this as narrow as possible to prevent anything but humans being considered sentient.)

Oh yea, here's a challenge: can anybody work up a simple, legal definition of what would make a species sentient?

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Greg Bishansky: I know the difference. Canon consists only of the first 65 episodes, the first episode of the Goliath Chronicles, and the new Creature Comics.com/SLG comic book. "Ask Greg" postings are usually considered canon by fans, but Greg himself does not seem to consider them as such.

Fanfiction is never canon. It may not even be legal--but that's a debate we're probably better off not having. However, it can't be denied that all fanfiction is an completely unofficial, unsanctioned, unlicensed spinoff of the original material (AKA the canon). Since it can never be canon, but is still a spinoff, it could be said that each fanfiction series exists as a separate universe (or at least timeline) with the "Gargoyles Multiverse."

Sidenote: I'm a geek. I classify all canon fiction and its related works, official and unofficial into multiverses. Sad? Yes. But that's how my mind works.

Now, earlier I said that TGS history does not conflict with canon at this point (which I assume is the reason you thought I was confused). This is certainly true, TGS incorporated the entire canon (as it then existed) into its universe, hence nothing is in conflict. Now that the canon is expanding, TGS will drift farther and farther away as more and more of its stories are directly contradicted by canon (which should start with the next issue of the comic). In other words, Greg's Unseelie War (starring Queen Mab) will naturally trump TGS's Unseelie War (Starring Madoc), but there can't really be a conflict until that happens.

Did that make sense?

Rightsider

RIGHTSIDER> I think you need to look up the difference between fanfic and canon.
Greg Bishansky
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon

dph_of_rules: {It branched off from the canon universe where it assumed a different set of history had occured}

Yeah, that had occurred to me. However, as none of the TGS history actually contradicts with canon at this point, my argument still has some merit.

Of course that's assuming "Ask Greg" is not counted as canon--and that's some mighty shaky ground.

Rightsider

Silvadel> If there was more postin' there would be more wipin'.

Looks like we could be in for one soon tho. :)

Lain

Rightsider - <FYI, the theory I'm working off of right now is that the Gate is restriced to a single timeline, even though other timelines may branch off at any given point (The Goliath Chronicles and TGS both branched off after Hunter's Moon, for instance).> I'd have to disagree with tgs branching off after Hunter's Moon from the canon gargoyles universe. It branched off from the canon universe where it assumed a different set of history had occured (the Dragon/3rd race war which was immediately followed by the First Unseelie War) The consequences (and presence of those events) is what sets tgs apart from the canon universe.

There are a couple of good alternate gargoyles universes I would like to see:
1)the one where the massacre in 994 doesn't occur a.how does that history vary from our canon?
b.how much longer does that clan surive?

2)the one where David Xanatos, Fox, and Petros Xanatos aren't present to stop the Archmage from stealing the Phoenix Gate in 975
a)does history confisicate by having somebody else present to stop the Archmage? or
b)does the Archmage acquire the Phoenix Gate and use it to immediately acquire the Eye of Odin thus securing "ultimate magical power"?

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Taleweaver - <With alternate timelines, you're asking the audience to accept a completely different story from the one they signed up for. You're upping the anty storywise, so make sure you have a big payoff for the additional effort. The worst pit I've seen in this one is where there is a completely different universe, but characters instinctively know what the true and proper state is and work to return it. If I have to accept a new world with new rules so should the characters in that world. It's like a fish suddenly realizing its wet. Not believeable.> I love alternate universe stories, if done properly, because they explain things that can't easily be believed. For example, in ST:NG, they was a story where an old version of the Enterprise was ripped from time and didn't have an impact on the Kitmore (spelling?) massacre. The result of that absence was war between the Federation and the Klingons, a war the Federation was going to lose. In ST:DS9, they had a story where temporarily the Bell Riots didn't happen in Earth's history quite the right way, the Federation ceased to exist. I agree characters shouldn't instinctively recognize the new universe is false (unless one or two has special powers to do so) or some technology exists that blocked them from the effect of history being altered. I saw an Enterprise episode where the Nazis took over North America thanks to help from an alien civilization. I'm curious how things would have turned out for Earth if Enterprise didn't interfere in that situation. (It was pretty clear to me that the Germans were dramatically overextended and were on the verge of losing their empire, even with superior technology. Given the superior technology that the humans were going to get from defeating the Earth, it makes me wonder. Of course, those time travelling aliens could have made returning to Earth with a fleet of ships to that time period to ensure enslavement of humanity a top priority.)
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Taleweaver: {IMO, time travel is littered with pitfalls and alternate timelines are more trouble than they are worth.} Possibly. But in my model the timelines never actually interact, so the whole thing is moot. If they did cross over, it would be the equivalent of TGS appearing in Gargoyles canon--which ain't never gonna happen.

Crossovers from one timeline (or parallel universe, or other dimension, or alternate reality--all of which have subtly different meanings in my world) should always be handled with caution. In designing my fanfiction world (which at this rate should debut sometime in the next 100 years, if I'm lucky), I made the editorial decision that no one in the universe is aware of any alternative worlds. Dimensional travel is allowed, of course, but only the sense it was used in the canon series. The few exceptions have much more important things to do than randomly jump realities.

Rightsider

Ok,this comment room needs some new life.

Archwolf> Congratulations. I hope you have a happy honeymoon.

Pendragon> Sounds like it would have been an interesting season 5, but somehow I don't think it would have flown. My impression from the stories was that modern life was an annoying intrusion into the Pendragon world. Take driving. It might have been fun to see Arthur accompany Mary as she learns to drive, but since he's been in modern times for years and still hasn't taken the steering wheel, it's doubtful he'd start now.

The Gathering> I'm sure others have posted journals of the Gathering in other places. But I thought I'd share my thoughts here. This one was aces, just like the LA Gathering in 2001. Met a lot of people involved in much of the Disney Afternoon and current Disney Channel shows. Learned that Don Carnage was originally, the Dread Pirate Anthrax, until copyright issues forced a quick change. Also learned Zipper was named as a double entrendre for fly. I also learned that the sound guys are a hard working, underappreciated bunch.

The only drawback if you can call it that was that there was so many interesting panels and guests, I couldn't get away to Magic Mountain and ride Tatsu. Maybe next time.

Time travel> One panel I missed because I had to work on Monday, was the time travel panel. I don't know if anyone who posts here was able to attend, but Greg was laying down the knowledge on time travel in the Gargoyle universe. (Brynne Chandler warned us he had 5x7 cards.)

IMO, time travel is littered with pitfalls and alternate timelines are more trouble than they are worth. Back when Quantum Leap was worth watching, I was drawn to how Sam Beckett, time traveller extraordinarie, found himself in the lives of regular people. Not celebrities and not at historic moments. The biggest pit time travel writers fall into is to only hit the tourist spots.

With alternate timelines, you're asking the audience to accept a completely different story from the one they signed up for. You're upping the anty storywise, so make sure you have a big payoff for the additional effort. The worst pit I've seen in this one is where there is a completely different universe, but characters instinctively know what the true and proper state is and work to return it. If I have to accept a new world with new rules so should the characters in that world. It's like a fish suddenly realizing its wet. Not believeable.

Well, I've run on long enough. Hopefully, I'll be back in a couple of days to comment some more.

Peace out!

Taleweaver
Honor those the dragons heed in thought and favor word and deed

Harvester of Eyes: {If anything, I think it was first proven in "Vows." Demona even says as much to Goliath after they arrive back at 1995.} You know, I remember thinking of "Vows" when I made that post. There was a reason I rejected it, but now it seems extremely flimsy.

FYI, the theory I'm working off of right now is that the Gate is restriced to a single timeline, even though other timelines may branch off at any given point (The Goliath Chronicles and TGS both branched off after Hunter's Moon, for instance). Thus the Gate cannot be used to change its own past, because that would break time--which would probably lead to the end of the universe in some horribly unpleasant way.

Naturally, this theory is extremely rough. And sometimes its very hard to get across to people who live outside the dark recesses of my own mind, but it serves my purposes pretty well.

Rightsider

Are we down to once per month now? At any rate I hope everyones 4th was good... We had the space shuttle... and North Korea put the MISS in missiles... Seems Japan cares -- and China cares the other way...
silvadel

For anyone who remembers Archwolf, he got married yesterday. Congratulations!
Mecord's Cat - [piseag2048 at lycos.com]

I owe a con journal, don't I? It was a pretty calm con for me, so to avoid a listing of the panels I attended, I think I'll just give the highlights.
Thursday: Five Hours on a plane. Snakes might have been better.
Friday: Panels (Blaise was great at the voice acting workshop) and opening ceremonies. First meal with my main group was the mall food court for a late dinner; kept switching up each time I went back. Ate my way through most of the places.
Saturday: Panels and radio play. Blue mug was dominated by psysiology from earlier in the day, but we got to hear Keith David sing, and Greg's studio executive rant probably caused one of the noise complaints that eventually got us kicked out of the con suite. We tried to reconvene by the ballrooms, but a security guard stopped that.
Sunday: For my first bit of charity over the weekend, I fed Mara breakfast off my AAA free meal coupon, who later fed Fusion Demon at lunch. Crispin Freeman's myths in animation presentation was nicely put together. This was also the day for porn panels. Banquet and Masquerade (Aaron's was fun, if not officially masquerade: "Dread Pirate Roberts #743, ask about franchise opportunites"), along with blue mug redux.
Monday: This time I fed Blaise, the starving actor, who was getting called back for either re or additional shooting the next day. Time travel still didn't register with some people, and I should have probably skipped out on collaborations for the end of the Iron Artist/Writer panel.
Tuesday: Another five hours on a plane. Snakes would have been better, if they came with Samuel L. Jackson.

Revel> <<Photos are posted>>: And you're going to scar some people with numbers 743, 748, and 778

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Photos are posted, journal soon to be finished.
Revel - [samrx5@msn.com]
Gathering photos and art

Rightsider: If anything, I think it was first proven in "Vows." Demona even says as much to Goliath after they arrive back at 1995.
Harvester of Eyes
"We now know that within every fifth boy-child in America is a system of strings and pulleys operated by a small dwarf. This dwarf is an employee of the International Communist League. Here is a simple test to see if your child is really a costumed dwarf: hit him in the head with a hammer."

Damo> <<I'm so unhappt with the art>>: Yeah, there was much discussion at the Gathering. Double elbowed Castaway, the box o' Pac Man ghosts, Popeye arm goliath, "terryiffing", though no one complained about the boob fairy. Ultimate decision among the people I was with was to give the guy a few issues to get the hang of it, then really complain.
<<there are fan artists that would have done a lot better>>: From the poing of view of Slave Labor, they needed someone they knew would get it done, and get it done on time. The fans are mostly an unknown quality to them.

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Murazor: {Do we know for a fact that history cannot be changed in the Gargoyles universe?} Yes we do. It was proven in the episode "MIA," when Goliath *did* actively try to change history.
Rightsider
There's a good reason the American eagle carries an olive branch in his right talon, but remember, there's an equally good reason he carries thirteen arrows in his left.

Oh, and sorry for the double-post, but one more thing.

Ed and I also planned (though it would have been many years down the road) that Mary would have succeeded Arthur to the rule of New Camelot. (Note that we even had a hint of that in "Rome Eternal" when she has her own sword-in-the-stone feat.) It'd have been a lot of fun seeing Nigel's response to that one, if he was still around at the time.

Merlin, of course, would be her Prince Consort (or First Gentleman, whichever you prefer).

Todd Jensen

HARVESTER - Thanks for your review of "Carbonek Part Three". Ed and I (who formed almost the entirety of the "Pendragon" staff at that point) had originally planned for a Season Five, indeed, but we wound up (for various reasons) deciding to leave TGS, which meant that that had to be where "Pendragon" ended. It may have been just as well, for one of the problems that the spin-off always had was blending two mythologies - the Arthurian legend and "Gargoyles" - in such a way that the general feeling on the TGS staff was that you had to be familiar with both in order to do any work on it. The other spin-offs were comparatively easy because they were based entirely on "Gargoyles" mythology (Brooklyn's adventures with the Phoenix Gate, the lives of the Wyvern clan prior to the massacre in 994).

I don't know if I should go into our plans for Season Five much (they never got beyond some vague general ideas, largely because we were so busy revising the Season Four "Pendragon" episodes down almost to a few hours before they were due for release that we didn't have much luxury to discuss Season Five at the time), but this is the basic idea of what Ed and I had:

Arthur would set up a new headquarters, probably in Somerset, most likely either a restored castle or a Victorian Gothic mansion, to serve as "New Camelot". (It would have to have either medieval or "pseudo-medieval" architecture to allow Griff and any other gargoyles there to perch there in the daytime and seem at home; gargoyles would appear very out of place on a Georgian stately home.) This would be where he and his companions would live when they weren't going out on adventures. The core regulars would go up to five, with Jennifer Camford joining Arthur, Griff, Merlin, and Mary. (Ed even proposed having a few of the Season Five episode titles having a certain "Famous Five" parodic tone to them, but I pointed out that most of our readers were Americans, who might not get it.)

A major element would have been Arthur learning more about the modern world and how it works, as well as studying the past few centuries of history between his time and today; a particular focus of that last would have been various cases of kings losing their thrones, so that Arthur could learn from their examples and not make the same mistakes that they did. (Ed suggested that idea and proposed for it the English Civil War and the Russian Revolution; I suggested the American Revolution alongside that.)

Another element would have been Arthur dealing with the responses towards him from the British government, the media, the general public, etc. There'd be a great deal of controversy over whether he really was King Arthur or just an oddball who thought that he was King Arthur, and maybe over the issue of whether Arthur and his modern-day knights were vigilantes or not. I also saw Agent Braddock returning as a recurring ally, here playing a sort of "Commissioner Gordon" function (except that I didn't see him setting up a "Pendragon-Signal" atop a police station in London).

A few of Arthur's other acquaintances would have returned in that season as well. Quetzalcoatl would have visited New Camelot a few times to help with Arthur's education. (We also had general plans for adding his scheming brother Tezcatlipoca to the recurring antagonists.) The Green Knight would have returned, and this time gotten into a feud with the Headless Horseman of Sleepy Hollow that Arthur and his friends would have been caught in the middle of. We also had plans to have Arthur and Co. encounter the Frankenstein monster - the way that he was portrayed in the original book by Mary Shelley, which ought to have surprised those among the regulars who knew him only via the pop culture version based on Boris Karloff's portrayal. (In the book, the Frankenstein monster was very intelligent, could speak - in a very eloquent fashion, and had read such books as Plutarch's Lives and "Paradise Lost". Hollywood has done the poor guy a great injustice.)

Familiar recurring antagonists would have included the Illuminati (mainly Duval and Powell) and Lucius. Morgana would have been gone for good, but Nigel would remain embittered by her death and be less than happy about Mary serving as Arthur's squire. We had plans for a new antagonist, but I'm not certain that I should mention that one yet.

Plans for the central protagonists included Griff feeling a little upset about Arthur starting to turn more to Jennifer than himself for counsel and support (not to mention Powell getting the upper hand over him in the big battle outside Carbonek, Merlin considering breaking up with Mary out of the belief that she deserved someone better than himself (still burdened in his conscience over arranging the conception of Arthur at Igraine's expense), and Mary's concern over Nigel's response to Morgana's death. (Mary would continue working towards knighthood, as well, with a passion. I had a minor creativity demon of Merlin providing her with an "alternate look" when serving as Arthur's squire openly so that people wouldn't recognize her in it; I can see Mary telling Merlin to make certain that he's got his adolescent hormones under control before magically "redesigning" her.)

And Lucy would have become Griff's squire.

Jumping back to your original comments one last time:

Glad that you noticed the bit about Singleton realizing too late what he'd gotten himself in for by challenging Lancelot. I think that there's some reason to it; modern-day versions of the Arthurian legend focus so much on Lancelot's role as "Arthur's friend who betrayed him with Guinevere" that it'd have been easy for him to have forgotten about Lancelot also being the best knight in the world - and I got a kick, when I wrote that bit, of having him suddenly remember that.

Todd Jensen

On the Gargoyles Comic -
I'm so happy there's a Gargoyles Comic!
I'm so unhappt with the art!

Pencils? No inks? The gargs usually look... okay (some facial expressions off), but the I just couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the humans. Anatomy problems all over the place! Page 5 has Xanatos becoming a midget!

Sound effects added from a stock sound effect program. Unprofessional.

Serious problems with pacing, which hopefully are just due to the difficulty of converting an episode into a comic. Serious problems with page layout, which unfortunately wouldn't be from converting this from an episode.

I'm going to flat out say it - there are fan artists that would have done a lot better, and I'm worried that it might hurt the book. I don't like saying it, but it's the truth as I see it.


On Apocalypse - Not to be all fannish, but... I'm sorry, he's a loser. He's constantly going on about this "survival of the fittest" thing, and how important it is for the very toughest mutants to kill everyone else. Well, sorry hon, but I remember your powers from Age of Apocalypse. You were ugly, and could get bigger. That was about it. Then you stumbled upon technology from the year bajillion, and yet managed to do very little with it. Seriously, a monkey would have been more dangerous with that stuff. And then you lucked out and the Celestials made your body all special. But what did you actually do with you own body, without anyone's help, without anyone dropping power ups in your lap? Pretty much zip. And you weren't all that effective with the toys from heaven either.

Damo

And I too have returned. Had a good time, mostly went to panels and hung out with Revel, Spacebabie, Aaron, Mara, Lynati and some others. Got to hear Kieth David sing, as well. Will write up a con journal, but tomorrow it's back to the grind.

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Greg B: Well, if Greg Weisman jumped off a bridge... ( ;

And on a more serious note, this has been a long time coming:

I finished reading the Pendragon series a few weeks ago, and I must say that "Carbonek" was a very explosive way to end it. There were a few areas where I felt that there was a void, but I think that might have been because they were in outlines for the aborted fifth season.

I actually went back and reviewed "The Rising," because my memory of it was a little hazy. And it turns out that Avallach's comments about how no one saw him die were accurate. I also find it interesting that he never chose to use the Grail to heal his wound. Perhaps he felt it was part of his penance for being unable to do anything while his sons waged a war that devastated the world.

The fight between Arthur and Morgana was very good. It also struck me as interesting that I had never stopped to consider that the person to whom a wrong has been committed has a choice not to pursue revenge. It's a theme that definitely applies to the canonical Gargoyles universe, as well, but somehow, it's something that never entered my head. Which is interesting, because if one thinks about it, the Gargoyles universe is an exploration on free will, and cause and effect.

Another thing I found interesting is that way back in Season One of Pendragon, Morgana cursed herself after her first encounter with Arthur for (as she more or less admitted) "pulling a Demona." And then in the moments following her battle with Arthur, that's basically who she started to remind me of. Funny what desperation does to people.

The conclusion was also very good, albeit with a few shaky things. I enjoyed the way the story ended, and had figured midway through the fourth season that Arthur's purpose would be something similar to what we saw. I felt that the situation between him and Jennifer seemed to be resolved too smoothly, especially since I don't think we had really seen too much of her since "Home for the Holidays." I also found it interesting what happened to Morgana, especially after she shocked me by revealing to Nigel just who she really was. So I wasn't really too happy with the way we left Nigel. Unless there was a comeback planned for Morgana (not to mention a more vocal disapproval from Nigel concerning Mary's company) in Season Five...

I'm also starting to wonder what resources Lucius might have had available to him after this. Aside from Eddie and Char, would he still be able to hold the other Minions in his sway?

And I also found it amusing that Singleton somehow forgot what a magnificent swordsman Lancelot was. But still, it was good to see Duval in action. I also liked the way that little vignette ended. But I can't help but wonder if Powell's penchant for jumping the gun would have led anywhere.

All in all, though, it was very well done. The series did indeed end with a bang. I'd be interested to hear some of what had been in outlines for another season.

Harvester of Eyes
"We now know that within every fifth boy-child in America is a system of strings and pulleys operated by a small dwarf. This dwarf is an employee of the International Communist League. Here is a simple test to see if your child is really a costumed dwarf: hit him in the head with a hammer."

Murazor: I'd have to say that history can't be changed either. However, you could get some flexibility out of bending history a little. Like replacing great works of art with fake ones just before they are destroyed by war or natural disasters.
I suppose theoretically you could do the same with Gargoyles during their stone sleep, provide you had enough uninterrupted time(where know one was watching) between sunset and the destruction of the Gargoyles. Unfortunately there was not enough time to switch the slaughtered Gargoyles at Wyvern without being observed by someone on duty at the time.
I just thought I would expand on the history can't be changed concept and say why it can't be changed. Like the Archmage said you can bend the rules without breaking them and I'd say much more fun to see how far you can actually bend the rules.

Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!

Back from the con, whee!
Lynati

MURAZOR> Greg Weisman has said that history cannot be changed.
Greg Bishansky
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon

Spen: Do we know for a fact that history cannot be changed in the Gargoyles universe? Although it is true that no one has tried to change history (neither Goliath in Vows, nor the Archmage in the Avalon arc), that doesn't mean that it cannot be changed (in fact, Puck was tempting Goliath with that very idea). To the best of my knowledge all we have seen falls under the self-fulfilling clause, but lack of proof is not proof of inexistence.
Murazor - [critogar@yahoo.es]

Hope the people out in sunny California right now are having better weather than I am.

My weekend was damp, but on the plus side, I finally got around to restoring the sound on my computer, after over a year. Now I can finally get around to viewing these clips and flash movies people keep sending me. Greg B sent me "Megatron is a Loser" a few weeks ago, but that's just the most recent in a long list.

And I also found out that recently that Bungie Software released the source codes for the Marathon Trilogy back in June 2005. Anyone in here who likes Halo, that's a game that basically owes its existence to Marathon (in fact, Bungie even slipped a few references among the Convenant). I loved those games when they first came out, but sadly, Marathon 2 was the only one they made for Windows. Now all three are available. Exciting stuff.

Harvester of Eyes
"We now know that within every fifth boy-child in America is a system of strongs and pulleys operated by a small dwarf. This dwarf is an employee of the International Communist League. Here is a simple test to see if your child is really a costumed dwarf: hit him in the head with a hammer."

Yeah the room is Gathering dead...but to those that do read this, thanks for the bio-answers about loosing limbs.
Do to economic reasons, I was only recently able to by the second season. Now my pal, that question guy, has watched them all with me, and well, I think we have a convert. He had seen some of them ten years ago but never all of them and definetly not in order. It's great to see the look of shock and surprise and intrigue and all the stuff that I'm kinda jaded on. He's actually amazed that I can recognize what happens in an ep by the title. Hilarious. ;)

So yeah, thanks.

Dezi
The Yoy abides..

*Takes a moment to see how things are going in the tgs cr while he's at the Gathering*

This post was brought you to thanks to A Fan's laptop.

Lain/Gunjack - when I get back, we will/need to chat some more.

Lady Mystic - look forward to reading your reply to my email when you have the chance.

*slips away to write his Gathering Journal for yesterday's adventures.*

dph of rules
Whatever hapenned to simplicity

Because in the Gargoyles universe, history con't be changed.

And incidentally, this is a comment room, not a chat room.

Spen

HEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!????????? Anyone here??
Chelsea

Y counldnt goliath just use the pheonix gate to go back and save his clan instead of just letting them be killed?
Chelsea

Lady Mystic : Another quick note: in the new beta site, the discription for the disclaimer is the same as the one for Untold Tales.
Spen

Anyone else notice that the "fun" meteorologists at the national hurricane center seem not to be there this year? I wonder if the ones that were so funny last year got canned...
silvadel

Here are the links to SLG's Website, who is producing the new comic:

http://www.slavelabor.com/nf_gargoyles.html
Press Release - The Gargoyles Return in June

http://www.slavelabor.com/prev_gargoyles/prev_gargoyles.html
Six page preview of Gargoyles Issue 1

HappyJack

Out of curiousity, has anyone here picked up the 1st Issue of the new Gargoyles comic book? It just came out today and I'm pretty stoked. Granted the issue is word-for-word from Greg Weisman's script for the first episode of the Third Season (The Goliath Chronicles), but as the comic is written by Mr. Weisman, I've no problems with that. What I'm hoping is that the story will continue with *his* vision of the Third Season, with John Castaway revealed as John Canmore, etc. Anyway, this post is just to tell all of you who aren't paying attention to comic books, please stop into your local shop and support the new Gargoyles comic by the creator, Greg Weisman!
HappyJack

Spen: <<One quick note: in the archive, last weeks CR was saved as text-only.>>
Darn forum cookies! ... Done; fixed! Thanks for pointing it out. :)

Lady Mystic
Admin of TGS CR Information

Gunjack: <getting off light for mass-murder?> Well, they gave him to Bastion at the start of the Zero-Tolerance plot line, which introduced a new generation of sentinals and whatnot. But aside from torturing Xavier and Jubilee, the only things that Zero tolerance did was introduce some new characters, which were later dropped anyway. Overall that storyline was very annoying.
Mecord

Lady Mystic : One quick note: in the archive, last weeks CR was saved as text-only.
Spen

***** TGS CR INFORMATION UPDATE *****


FACE-LIFT:

The entire TGS Comment Room Information section received a face-lift! I converted all the CR Information files from html to PHP with the exception of the individual files displaying CR images and CR text colors, with which I plan on converting over to PHP at a later date. Please let me know if you come across any malfunctions or broken links. And please share your opinions of the new website design. :)

CR ARCHIVE:

The archive was updated to include the "week" of May 23 to June 12, 2006. When visiting the CR Archive, you will notice that links of each archived year are on one page, as opposed to individual "index" pages within separate directories signifying each year. I used JavaScript to "hide" content for a cleaner look. Go check it out and let me know what you think. (Side Note: The actual files of each archived week were not disturbed and are still located in individual directories representing each year.)

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/index.php

CR ADMINS:

The email addresses for the Comment Room Administrators was altered a bit to deter spam bots. The new page is now even easier to read.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/admins.php

CR MEMBERS:

I omitted the option to view graphical and text-only calendars displaying CR member's birthdays and anniversaries in favor of a text-based version that utilizes very little images for aesthetic purposes only. This new calendar design is sleeker than the previous calendar designs and also matches the color scheme of the new CR Information website design.

I also updated the appearance and navigation for the CR member profile pages as well as the statistics pages. In addition, the profile submission form was revamped and now includes the option of selecting the Gathering 2007 under the field "Gatherings Attended" for those who plan on attending next year's Gargoyles convention.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/members/index.php

CR DEVELOPMENT:

The CR Development directory was changed from "http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/other" to "http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/dev/" for clarity. I omitted the "index" pages from the Cut Images and New Images directories and transferred the information to the index page for CR Development.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/dev/index.php

BETA PAGES:

The Beta Pages under CR Development now display an alternate page design for the TGS website with two different sidebar menu styles available. If you like the new website design I implemented for the CR Information section, or if you prefer one of the alternate Beta designs or the original TGS website design, please let me and the TGS Staff know. I would love to receive feedback and constructive criticism on these prospective designs. :)

My preference: I personally prefer the non-collapsible menu design because I like all links accessible without extra mouse clicks and because it affords more visual appeal to the page. The collapsible menu design seems to lack character, weight and... color. The JavaScript for the collapsible menu design also provides some drawbacks with CSS/HTML coding flexibility which I'd prefer to avoid.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/dev/beta/index.php


***** END UPDATE *****

Lady Mystic
Admin of TGS CR Information

Gunjack> <<And though it may mkark me as a plebian>>: I do so enjoy mindless entertainment, and don't believe the plebes should be plugged up with plebiscite.
<<Which reminds me, any good marvel storylines, I should go looking for?>>: That's a tough one. All the epics have their detractors. I think Age of Apocalypse was mostly well recieved, but for more generics, I remember enjoying Peter David's run on X-Factor and the early days of Generation X. But really, I haven't been paying attention for a while now.
<<What is?>>: A good song by Great Big Sea: Hanging Johnny. "Well, first I hanged me mother."
<<Though it's good to hear you don't have to deal with as much of the cd-tray/cupholder stuffs>>: But there's still a tradeoff because if anything goes wrong, Bad Things happen. I once accidentally undid a mornings worth of work for one county in Florida.
<<<The PAIIIIINNNN!!!>>: No direct linking.

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

That link was supposed to here. Gah. Hard to think straight when you're bein chewed upon.

Sleeping now.

V - [< correct address!]

Greetings, one and all, and thankee Sai for the birthday wishes. For those curious, For my birthday I recieved Lasagna. It was exceptional. :)

HoE><<I'm hoping I'll have assassinated George Lucas by then, but evil doesn't die so easily.>> Kill it! Kill it with FIRE!!!

Gside><<Fun music at least.>> Good explosions too. The ship designs were also nice, especially for the fighters. And though it may mkark me as a plebian, I likes that Will Smith character.
<<We do know; it was in the comics.>> Haven't gotten a chance to read em yet, but I've been meanting too. Which reminds me, any good marvel storylines, I should go looking for?
<<Still bearded.>> Me too. <<Or alternatively: It's just that hanging's so bloody funny.>> For some reason, this reminds me of Clueless Morgan.
<<And it's hang, boys, hang.>> What is?
<<Granted, we also have a few people in some districts that go to us directly that barely know what a computer is.>> ...Yup, there it is. Though it's good to hear you don't have to deal with as much of the cd-tray/cupholder stuffs...

Mecord><<Afterwards, Xavier submitted himself to the U.S. government and they placed a mutant inhibitor on him.>> Good move, but isn't that kinda getting off light for mass-murder? though I guess it helps that all your recognizable victims don't stay dead... :P

And tyhat all for now. Back to the writing desk for me, oh ye- hey, what's this on the flooORAGH*gnargnar*OGODITHURTSGETITOFF*gnar*GETITOFFGETIT OFF AAAAAAA!!!!

Gunjack "Folderol" Valentine - [<The PAIIIIINNNN!!!]

Happy belated birthday Gunjack.

Lady Mystic - You got a loonnngggg email from me coming. I sent 2 because I wasn't sure if the first one got through.

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

dph: Sorry. No, I am not attending the Gathering. Unfortunately, my husband and I neither have the funds nor opportunity to take a vacation from work at this time. (That, and Fire Storm can't get weekends off right now.) :(
Lady Mystic

Happy birthday Gunjack.

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Lady Mystic - Are you going to the Gathering? If so, I would suggest I talk to you there what the contents of that latest email you sent to me.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Oops, forgot to post this yesterday. Happy birthday, Gunjack!
Spen

Lynati> <<I will leave him his 2pm face-gnawing here for him. *sets it down carefully as not to trigger it prematurely*>>: Now where can I find a face on a stick?

<<I'm still dreading the day an Iron-man movie comes out>>: Well, at least they already have the opening song.

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Onslaught> I never actually read the Onslaught event, so my knowledge is second hand. But it did seem like they were trying to recreate the dark pheonix saga and failed miserably. The best part was that they killed some old characters that had fallen out of popularity. Unfortunately, that turned out to be a marketing move to make a big deal out of bringing them all back to life. Then they made half of them into movies. (I'm still dreading the day an Iron-man movie comes out)
Mecord

Gunjack is not online, so I will leave him his 2pm face-gnawing here for him.

*sets it down carefully as not to trigger it prematurely*

Lynati

Greg> <<90s era Marvel sucked>>: I found at least a couple bits entertaining. And Onslaught was the boss for a pretty good arcade game (which is essentially completely unrelated).

Na zdorov'ya

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Greg B: I thought Palpatine was supposed to be a knockoff of George Bush (at least in Episode III).
Harvester of Eyes
"Looking behind me, the water turns icy blue. The lights are dimmed, and once again the stage is set for you."

Onslaught... yes. One of the worst stories ever.

90s era Marvel sucked.

Greg Bishansky
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon

Gunjack: <What if he goes crazy?> Xavier did go crazy a while back. A part of his psyche went loco and called himself Onslaught. He killed Captain America, the Hulk, Ironman, and the Fantastic Four (unsuprisingly, they all came back). It took the majority of heroes and villains to take him down. Even Cable and Apocalypse joined forces to fight against Onslaught and couldn't take him down. Ironically, Onslaught was supposed to be a synthesis of Xavier and Magneto, formed when Xavier mindwiped Magneto. Afterwards, Xavier submitted himself to the U.S. government and they placed a mutant inhibitor on him.
Mecord

Except that Magneto is not a crazy, cackling Mussolini wannabe crack pot, and Jean Grey isn't a retarded block of wood.
Greg Bishansky
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon

Gunjack "Panahaha" Valentine: From a certain point of view Magneto and Jean Grey reminded me of Palpatine and Vader, if you catch my drift.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!

Gunjack> <<But... but I *liked* Independence Day>>: Fun music at least.
<<What if he goes crazy?>>: We do know; it was in the comics.
<<How Hangeth it, Bearded Brother?>>: Still bearded. Or alternatively: It's just that hanging's so bloody funny. And it's hang, boys, hang.
<<What's reporting season?>>: Every now and then the state wants to know how well schools are doing. For most states, they just ask pretty much for a dump of the students' data. Unfortunately, Jersey wants to know how many kids of each age group got which service, were referred, exited, etc. Which takes a good bit more processing power and more preparing on our part.
<<And as a tech supporter, are ye familiar with "Customers Suck"?>>: Mostly, but it's not so bad. Most of the people I have to talk to are already the grand high tech poobah of the school district, so they've solved most of the problems and just want something changed in their database. Granted, we also have a few people in some districts that go to us directly that barely know what a computer is.
<<Massive defense during the day, massive offense at night?>>: Possibly. Or maybe elemental shift between earth and air.
<<Was Tom Selleck in Empire Strikes Back?>>: I used to love this show.

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Gunjack: <Was Tom Selleck in Empire Strikes Back?>

No, but according to the 2004 DVD, Ian McDarmid was. And if the altered dialogue is any indication, Vader was a bigger retard than Episode III made him out to be. Who knows how much more retarded he may become when the prequel Special Editions are released in 2019? Of course, I'm hoping I'll have assassinated George Lucas by then, but evil doesn't die so easily.

Harvester of Eyes
"Looking behind me, the water turns icy blue. The lights are dimmed, and once again the stage is set for you."

Lynati><<...Wait, why am I quoting Tank Girl?>> Dunno, but it was pretty cool. In an attempt to hear the rest, In will now mangle languag3e in the way of my people: MOAR PLESE!

Greg B><<Apocalypse = ID4, Phantom Menace, American Godzilla, and other crappy movies like that.>> But... but I *liked* Independence Day...

Okay, you got the Usual Suspects in there. All is well.

In any case, you're right that Magneto kicks ass... But watching the movies, it occured to me that, logically speaking, he's still in the wrong, and so is Charles. Based on the movies, the only person who got the "mutant question" right was Senator Kelly. The mutants WERE too dangerous to be allowed to exist freely. Think about it.

Magneto, by himself, is about as destructive as a small nuke. Xavier, by himself, is much worse, a serious threat to all mankind. Oh sure, he's a nice old man with an impeccable moral compass... But no one's stable enough to be trusted with that much power. What if he goes crazy?

I dunno, it just kinda struck me as odd that the movies keep portraying the humans ans bloody-minded bigots, when it's pretty clear (especially in 2 and 3) that the mutants really do contitute a serious threat to their survival...

Gside> How Hangeth it, Bearded Brother? <<Lately I've been blaming it on how many people I've been having to talk to for tech support at work (and Jersey reporting season is coming up again, which won't help).>>

What's reporting season? And as a tech supporter, are ye familiar with "Customers Suck"?

<<if not, check out the summons: http://www.the-mousehole.net/KHIH/>> Now, *that's* cool. Massive defense during the day, massive offense at night?

<<Such as taping over the original trilogy?>> "George, I have to ask you a question. Was Tom Selleck in Empire Strikes Back?" ...Hee. Man, what a jerk. :)

Gunjack "Panahaha" Valentine
It is in this spirit that I have resolved to give you nothing as well, as much as you want. You might be wondering how you or your friends can get a piece of this nothing that I'm giving away. Just close your eyes. Yes, that's it. Open your right palm. There. Now savor your nothing, to the extent that one is able to savor the void. - Tycho Brahe

Anyone here going to the Gathering still need a roommate? I'm getting a little desperate.
I'm probably going to end up reserving a room myself, so if anyone needs somewhere to crash and doesn't mind paying a half, or a third, or any other fraction dependant on the number of people we can fit in a room, please email me.

Thanks,
CKayote

CKayote - [CKayote@gmail.com]
It is the eternal fate of the noble and enlightened to be brutually crushed by the armed and dumb.- Jon Stewart

HoE> <<How long, I know not>>: Nor I. Days have been almost blurring for me. Not from fun, just same old, same old.
<<I'm always fond of listing reasons that George Lucas a dick>>: Such as taping over the original trilogy?

Spen> <<I was wondering where you had run off to>>: Not really run off, just a bit of ennui.
<<Off the top of my head, I'd say about January>>: Possibly. I would have believed longer, but I just checked that I did make a new year's post (3 seconds early this year).

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Gside : Hey, welcome back! I was wondering where you had run off to.

Harvester : And, quite naturally, that someone is me. Off the top of my head, I'd say about January.

Spen

GSide: Long time, no see. How long, I know not, but someone should be able to fill the blanks in for me.

Mecord: There's nothing wrong with talking about things you like. I'm always fond of listing reasons that George Lucas a dick, even when the context might not be appropriate (especially when it's not appropriate).

Harvester of Eyes
"Looking behind me, the water turns icy blue. The lights are dimmed, and once again the stage is set for you."

Dezi> <<GSIDE!!! yay! long time no read!>>: Yes, it has. Let's see how long I last this time.

And since I don't have much else to say, I'll point this out, even though it's probably been posted before (if not, check out the summons):
http://www.the-mousehole.net/KHIH/

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Greg: I never said Apocalypse had no depth, only that he was not as in depth and not as easy to relate to as Magneto. Heck, not even half the X-men have as much depth as Magneto. As for what has Apocalypse accomplished? Well, here is the wikipedia page about him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_%28comics%29 Not the best source, but a decent summary.

I realize that we will probably never agree on anything concerning this topic, and that's fine. I just enjoy the discussion.

Mecord

MECORD> So, you admit he has no depth of character, but then say he is interesting?

I'm sorry, you can't have it both ways. Apocalypse is NOT an interesting character. He's dull, and boring. And a joke. What has he actually accomplished?

To return to the movie analogy:

Apocalypse = ID4, Phantom Menace, American Godzilla, and other crappy movies like that.

Magneto = Great movies like Crash, Apocalypse Now, Goodfellas, The Usual Suspects.

I know which list of movies I'd rather be watching.

Greg Bishansky
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon

GSIDE!!! yay! long time no read! And thanks, I forgot about that it can still "heal" during sleep.
Dezi
Want to pinch!

Been a while; about time I got back in here. Lately I've been blaming it on how many people I've been having to talk to for tech support at work (and Jersey reporting season is coming up again, which won't help).

Dezi> <<Will it still be a part of the gargoyle?>>: All depends on how fast things happen, biologically speaking, during stone sleep. Probably a good chance since there's a lot of healing going on.
<<what did they use to glue the stone bits together?>>: I'm betting they just saved the big chunks and wired them up, not doing that much with the pebbles and stone size bits.

Na zdorov'ya.

Gside - [gside@comcast.net]

Heh, I de-lurk, make a post and the room is wiped, so I guess I'll repost:

I usually post on the TGS comment room, but since, you guys have been on the topic of biology lately, I figured I'd repost here to see what you all come up with:

Ok so I'm kinda getting my friend into the series (and read to him two Timedancers earlier today) and now we're re-watching season 1. He brought up a question that I'm gonna pass off to you all. At first the answer seemed easy but then...I don't know.. OK:

If a gargoyle is in stone sleep, and you saw off his wing, then try to re-attach it, when he wakes up, will it still be functional? Will it still be a part of the gargoyle? or will it just fall off with the stuff you used to glue it back on...

At first I answered no, that wouldn't work, because, well, I pictured the person using mortar or concrete or something like that, and that won't turn to life..but then there's Coldstone. I know some parts of him were put back together by magic but they still had to glue the crumpled stone parts together. I always assumed the robot parts were to replace the parts that had disintegrated at the massacre, and that the magic was used to breathe life back into the stone form...but what did they use to glue the stone bits together?

There, have fun. We all might win over a convert on this one.

Dezi
Want to pinch!

Greg: Apocalypse can't compare with Magneto, as far as the depth of character goes, because of one simple thing. People can relate to Magneto. Magneto is more real, the events of his history are a close version of reality, and sometimes it appears that he was right, while Xavier's dream was nothing but. You can't say that about Apocalypse, but don't discount him completely. When managed properly, his plots can be very interesting: the creation of Archangel, Age of Apocalypse, and his unusual relationship to Cable for example. Lately, they've even started moving away from the "Survival of the Fittest" thing. Unfortunately, there has been a fair share of mismanagement as well. I wasn't too impressed by the "Twelve" plot line, and then there were the Apocalypse babies in the Mojoverse.

Basically, if they were to use another X-men villain in a movie, Apocalypse would be my first choice. My next choice would be Sentinals. I was glad they made an appearance in X3, but I've been hoping for more than just a danger room exercise. I also think they should do a crossover of some sort. X-men and Spiderman for instance. Or Blade and Ghost Rider. Speaking of which, I'm excited to see a movie about Ghost Rider coming out, despite the actor they found to play him.

Anyway, I'll shut up now. I'm just a long time Marvel fan who likes to talk about his favorite characters.

Mecord

Silvadel> Consistent with his Movie character I meant. Which is slightly different than the comic version.

I can't see this Magneto teaching the New Mutants.

Greg Bishansky
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon

Niner, Niner!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!

Eight, eight, the burning hate; a day so dark it-
...Wait, why am I quoting Tank Girl?

*goes back to work*

Lynati

7th in the name of... um,... Fish sticks!
Mecord

6th in the name of the hope of a step-mother saving my bacon so that the consequences (that my dad plans) won't be so bad if I go to the Gathering.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

I claim five.
Starsinger

Pfhor.
Harvester of Eyes
"Well, I'll just waltz on down to the 'Free Present Store!' You think I have money to buy all that?" -Santa Claus

3rd? Can it be?
Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]
It has been said that the world is a strange place. This is not true. The world is a VERY strange place!

Second!
Spen

Hmm its empty #1
silvadel

----
Upward