"My only point remains that just because someone is being a jerk, doesn't mean we have to be a jerk back. We've seen it often enough in this room that we should learn from it. And now that my point has been made, I'm willing to let the whole thing pass." -- Mecord

Knowing my own past with Gargoyles on the Internet (Lynati and anyone else I met at the Gathering would know this one :-P ), I can see where you're coming from, Mecord. Additionally, I know I can easily slip into that newbie-hunting anti-jerk hypocrite phase, so should something like this occur again I'll remember what you said and try and do better next time. :)
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Sun, Aug 27, 2006 10:52:54 pm EDT from 69.230.94.250

Todd or Ed: I'm working on the outline for "Crossover", and realized an assumption I had been making about the Pendragon cast's means of transportation was wrong. Can one of you please tell me how the group was supposed to have reached Manhattan, so I can fix the opening scenes?
Lynati
Rocks fall, everybody dies.
posted @ Sun, Aug 27, 2006 8:14:23 pm EDT from 70.244.113.189

I have to admit my previous comment was intended to sound a little harsh. Maybe even a little like a flame bait. But I'm not trying to start another flame war, and I'm not going to defend Adam. My only point remains that just because someone is being a jerk, doesn't mean we have to be a jerk back. We've seen it often enough in this room that we should learn from it. And now that my point has been made, I'm willing to let the whole thing pass.
Mecord
posted @ Sun, Aug 27, 2006 3:19:30 pm EDT from 63.230.5.218

Lynati> I haven't seen "Manhattan" or "Stardust Memories" yet, but I'll be adding those to my list. I'm definitely interested in seeing how they fit in with "Annie Hall" as a trilogy.

I have seen "Chinatown". Great movie. I'm a huge fan of Jack Nicholson, and I think Roman Polanski is a great director. I haven't seen "Brick, but Mara also recommended it, and I'll definitely add it to my list.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2006 11:45:53 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I can't weigh in on the flame skirmish, since I myself have poked people who annoyed me online until they left. Between that and the fact I didn't step in to tell both side to cool down (not that it was my place to, I'm not an admin here) anything I could say now- like agreeing with Mecord's point- would be pretty hypocritical.

Nonetheless, I hope Adam reads and enjoys the stories when they are posted, even if he chooses to avoid this room here on after.

Greg: Oh, has anyone floated the theory past you that Manhattan, Annie Hall, and Stardust Memories consitute a sort of trilogy in their own right? And if you haven't seen Chinatown or Brick yet (the latter being 2005 release I saw last night, the former being one of the movies I was finally exposed to in the one college film class I had) you should add them to your list.
Lynati
Rocks fall, everybody dies.
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2006 11:29:46 pm EDT from 69.154.243.98

BISHANSKY - I do think that it might have been better if you and Harvester had simply ignored Adam's repetitious comments about "Star Wars" and kept the topic more firmly around TGS, since the "Star Wars" element of the argument seems to have had a major role in it turning into a flame war (as Mecord called it). But I suppose that it was bound to turn into one eventually, given much of the tone of Adam's posts.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2006 7:25:38 pm EDT from 4.244.213.104

Yes. I did ask him twice. Personally, I don't think one should be making calls like that when they haven't seen the material yet.

I mean, it would be like me saying that the next Presidential administration is going to suck worse than Bush and Carter put together. I don't know that. I don't have a crystal ball that can see the future.

It just annoys me.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2006 3:07:34 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Mecord:

Adam never seemed much interested in discussing things in a civil manner. In fact, he appeared to have completely ignored my post about movies and their expanded universi versus what society understands/accepts and/or cares to understand/accept.

And I have to admit, if this is howe this Adam person treats people on the Internet, I certainly wouldn't want to meet him at the Gathering.

And let's remember that originally I agreed with you, Mecord, about keeping things civil. In fact, after I posted that, Greg B. himself apologized for his earlier trangressions -- pardons, I can't think of a better term currently.

If anything, the only "uncivility" I can recall is Greg B. constantly asking Adam to see his "effing crystal ball" to see where he was getting his info. about the new comic. I'm going to hazard a guess and say that Greg B. was getting frustrated. Besides, didn't you ask that earlier on, Greg B.? And, I'm going to guess again, if you did indeed ask this question before, obviously then Adam didn't answer you the first time.

It almost seemed like Adam _wanted_ to start a flame war himself, what with his/her/its choices of who he/she/it would have killed off in TGS. Though I must say, kudos to everyone here for not taking that bait -- if indeed bait it was. *shrugs*
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2006 2:03:14 pm EDT from 69.230.92.34

MECORD> No one viciously insulted him at all, until he started behaving like an ass. He could never discuss the issue at hand. He just had to drag in more shit, and throw more fuel into the fire.

As Guardian said, we could only work with what we were given.

In fact, I think the only one who was viciously insulted was George Lucas. And not in a trolling way, everything said about Lucas was very legitimate. Very true. Adam couldn't seem to deal with it.

And on one last note, and I kind of wish this happened earlier in the week. Last night, I watched "Annie Hall" for the first time. Brilliant movie. Terrific script, great acting. I liked it a lot. I liked it better than the first "Star Wars" movie. Why bring that up? Because it was the film which one Best Picture in 1977, beating "Star Wars", and rightfully so. Apparantly many Star Wars geeks still hold a passionate grudge against it.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2006 1:35:57 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

You know what? I'm really dissapointed with this room right now. You couldn't leave well enough alone. Adam came in here as a fan and expressed his oppinions in a simple and unoffensive manner and was maliciously attacked for it. What makes it worse is that you are all proud of yourselves. "regularly scheduled CR," what is that? five comments a week and a wipe every two? This is the most active this room has been in a year and it's for a flame war. Well congratulaitions for driving away yet another fan of the serries with your petty bickering.
Mecord
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2006 6:52:58 am EDT from 63.230.5.218

Two graphic novels, that are unfortunatly long out of print. But, if you can track them down. "Origin of the Hobgoblin" and "The Hobgoblin Lives"
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 9:11:16 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Adam's leaving? Oh wow. You'll have to excuse me for a moment.

*leaves the CR to change his jeans, comes back a few moments later*

Bishansky: Actually, just about all the actors in the prequels have some good acting chops in other movies. I've not seen "Shattered Glass," but I've heard that Hayden Christenson was good in it. But, I mean Sweet Jesus, the fact that James Earl Jones needed to do 15 takes of "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" should tell us all something.

So if anything, the real message is that George Lucas should have spent the time between "Jedi" and "The Phantom Menace" doing research on how to direct and motivate actors instead of playing with his digital dong. Hell, I'm tempted to rent or borrow Episode III (preferably borrow) so I can hear what George Lucas considers to be commentary, in those moments when you can actually hear what he's saying, because his mouth is not filled with his own cock.

And incidentally, do you know if Stern's version of Hobgoblin is in graphic novel form anywhere?
Harvester of Eyes
"Burger King! Where all Dragon Masters eat!" -Triumph.
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 9:09:13 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

Incidentally, while I'm staying out of the Star Wars debate in general (for reasons I gave in my post below), the talk about "rewriting your story" interested me a little because, after Ed and I left TGS, we decided to do a sort of "remake" of "Pendragon" minus the "Gargoyles" elements (i.e., no gargoyles including Griff, no Illuminati, no Macbeth, and a new story for Arthur's awakening and return to the outside world) and incorporating some revised ideas that I'd had about much of the "Pendragon" cast that I'd come up with too late to use in the series. We've since abandoned the idea for various reasons, but I thought that I'd mention some of the notions that we had in it:

1. The "premiere episode" had Mary Sefton, while on holiday with a relative or family friend (in the first draft it was her aunt, in a later draft it was a friend of her mother's named Harriet Oldcastle - more about her later), stumbling upon a hidden cave where Merlin was lying asleep, having been entombed there by Nimue, and waking him up - with Merlin, a la TGS, having been rejuvenated to about her age during this time. (We also decided upon Mary being descended from Nimue on her mother's side, which was how she was able to awaken him - though she wouldn't discover it for quite some time.) The two of them would then be threatened by a gang of "Unseelie cultists" who were after Merlin to use in freeing his father (more about this below), which would ultimately lead to Arthur being brought back from Avalon to save Merlin - but he's now bewildered by the modern world and is trying to understand it.

2. The "Madoc-equivalent" was renamed Gwyn son of Nudd (a faerie king in Welsh legend; I'd discovered that the Madoc Morfryn from whom I'd gotten the name for Merlin's father in TGS was an ordinary human and father of a different Merlin from the one at King Arthur's court), and portrayed as being imprisoned in a hollow chamber below Glastonbury Tor, chained to a great chair. In the new backstory for him, Gwyn was one of several faerie rulers all independent of each other, who was displeased with the faerie world because he considered it too chaotic and disorderly (Gwyn being a firm believer in Law and discipline), and so decided to forcibly unite it under himself to give it the order and discipline that he believed the faeries so desperately needed - and he did unite them, though not in the way that he'd expected, because all the other faerie kingdoms frantically allied against him to stop him from conquering them. In the end, after a long and devastating war (equivalent to the First Unseelie War in TGS), the other faerie rulers defeated Gwyn - barely - and imprisoned him in the outside world. Gwyn is now attempting to escape, assisted by Garlon (the only one of his former followers still alive and loyal to him) and by a few human cultists; he not only wants to still unify the faerie world, but also to conquer the human world (not just out of power-hunger, but because he'd become aware of the rates at which human science and technology were developing, and had become almost afraid of them, fearing that the humans would wind up destroying the world with their own technology). Incidentally, Gwyn here fathered Merlin through projecting a portion of himself temporarily into the outside world (the magical equivalent of artificial insemination).

3. Lucius Adrians was portrayed in it as not just some "crackpot sorcerer" as in TGS, but a more complex figure. Lucius had become increasingly convinced that humanity was too incompetent and immature, unfit to govern itself, with an attitude of "Look at what humans have produced by being in charge of their own affairs. Warfare, tyranny, political and economic corruption, racism, environmental pollution, terrorism, crime, reality television, etc." He would wind up siding with Gwyn because he believed that Gwyn would be able to bring peace and order to the world at last. Arthur's first encounter with him would involve the two of them investigating a mysterious set of murders done by a bizarre creature (Lucius engages himself in periodic "X-Files"-style investigations through his research into the "faerie world"); the creature turns out to be a product of genetic mutation called Caliban (named after the Caliban of "The Tempest", but not identical with him) who was being hired out to people who wanted to avenge themselves on others who'd wronged them - the trouble is that Caliban comes after the people who've hired him out next. To make matters worse for Arthur, Caliban's last client had been a man who'd discovered that his wife was cheating on him and sent Caliban after the man whom his wife was seeing; this naturally comes too close to home for Arthur's comfort - and it makes matters even worse for him by the fact that the adulterous couple turn out to be a shallow pair who had their affair out of boredom (in contrast to the tragic nobility of Lancelot and Guinevere), making him wonder whether Lucius has a point about how hopeless the world's gotten (Lucius sharing his views about humanity with Arthur throughout the episode, a bit like Demona with Brooklyn in "Temptation"). In the course of the episode, Merlin would be injured in an encounter with Caliban; Lucius, patching up the boy's wounds, secretly obtains some of his blood to later on use in creating the story's equivalent to the Unseelie halflings (and, yes, that was inspired by the opening of "Double Jeopardy").

4. Arthur's immediate friends in the modern world would be Merlin, Mary Sefton, and a new character, Harriet Oldcastle. Harriet was a friend of Mary's mother and would start off the story as married to a Cabinet Minister named Sir John Oldcastle, an amoral rogue with a knack for getting himself in trouble and looking for wild adventures (the main reason why he's in the Cabinet is so that the Prime Minister can keep a close eye on him and keep him from doing anything to embarrass the party). Harriet had been taken with Oldcastle's charm when she had married him a few years back, to the disapproval of her father (a respectable businessman who wanted Harriet to follow in his footsteps); however, she'd come to discover Oldcastle's more shallow side over the years, and that, combined with her father's recently dying after a long illness, led her to reconsider things to the extent that she finally decided to get a divorce from him. Harriet would quickly be introduced to Arthur and Merlin by Mary, and play a major role in helping Arthur adjust to the modern world (a bit like Elisa with Goliath) - there'd also be some romantic elements between them, but with difficult issues (such as Arthur still carrying a torch for Guinevere and half-afraid to fall in love after what happened last time - not to mention that he'd have reservations about getting involved with a divorced woman). Incidentally, Nigel Sefton, in this version, would be Oldcastle's departmental secretary, with one of his major responsibilities being to stop Oldcastle from doing anything disastrous (some mild influence here from James Hacker and Sir Humphrey Appleby in "Yes, Minister"). And, incidentally, if you look over this paragraph closely, you may be able to figure out whom Oldcastle and Harriet were modelled on. :)

5. Oberon would exist in this world, but as just one of many faerie rulers rather than the head one - and furthermore, by the time of the story, he would be dead (succeeded by Gloriana, his daughter by Titania).

There were a few other things, but I'll save them for another time if anybody's interested.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 7:54:13 pm EDT from 4.244.210.240

Lynati> I think what happened at the time, with season 3, is that a lot of the staff members from he first two seasons left. Not just a couple, but there was a mass exodus.

And everyone had their pet character. A character they created, or took a massive interest in. "Gargoyles" already had a huge cast. Add in as many original characters in the first two seasons that appeared, and it's a cast of thousands.

So, the people still around, or the new recruits, may not care so much for these new characters, and might not want to do much with them. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, as I fully intend how it is to have your pet character, but I remember Robby and I having discussions on how we couldn't think of well, anything to do with Sara Jasper. And how she didn't really fascinate us in the first place. Okay, her first arc as the undercover cop in the Quarrymen was good, but after that, she just became Matt's girlfriend.

Or Andrea Calhoun. She became very important to Demona's character. And while I think that's fine for the Madame Destine fics, the Demona that we were left with at the end of season two is not the Demona I personally wanted to write. I know Twiggess thinks that what I did in "Contingencies" was a complete 180 with Demona in the first two seasons of TGS, and I'm not going to disagree with her. But there's a reason I wanted to move Demona off stage for a little while. Which, well, you're well aware of that.

I guess what it comes down to is that I really understood what it felt like to be the latest writer on a long running comic book. I mean, take Spider-Man or the X-Men for example. They don't end when their creator leaves, a new team comes in and replaces the old one. Now, each of those teams has their own ideas on where to take the characters, has their own pet characters, and other characters they don't really care about.

I am reminded of the Hobgoblin. Roger Stern in the early 80s had an incredible run on "Amazing Spider-Man", and created a new character called the Hobgoblin (as a replacement for the long dead (at the time) Green Goblin). And he set up a mystery story, who was the Hobgoblin? Who was under that mask. Stern knew. He set up the clues, the suspects, the red herrings. Then, he was removed from the comic. Tom DeFalco took over, and continued the mystery his way, and years later unmasked the Hobgoblin... and the result was a shoddy explanation, with big enough holes to drive a truck through. And it was not who Stern had intended. Luckily for him, nothing he wrote was contradicted, and he was able to come back in 1996 (over a decade later) and finally bring back and unmask the Hobgoblin as he originally intended to do.

Kudos to him for doing it, but still a continuity nightmare.

But, for me personally, what it came down to is that I cant write something if I don't believe it. To bring this back to Demona, I just could never believe her arc in the first two seasons. Killing Madoc was a great twist, very well done, and I'm all for that. But she didn't need to be saying I love you" to Andrea Calhoun to do that. She could have still been the genocidal sociopath that she was and do that.

Hell, I can even buy her saving Elisa's life that one time, because she saved Angela's life. But the next time they saw each other, all bets would be off.

Sometimes it just seems to me like we write the characters as we want to see them, not necessarily as they are. And we're all guilty of that to some degree. That's what fanfic is for.

I had to choose between writing Canon Demona, and TGS Seasons 1 and 2 Demona. I chose the former. Because that is the character I know and love. The latter, well written as she was, was a stranger to me. Do I regret it? No, not really.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 7:33:23 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

From what Weisman has told us, the grey goo scenario and the release of the Matrix may have indeed been set up by Titania to try and awaken Fox's powers...but I really doubt her whisper was an admittance of that fact. Fox's reaction doesn't measure up, and it was too short a statement.

Twiggess: "I actually thought Lynati was a guy" *headdesk* Part of my love for this handle when I first chose it- well over a decade ago now - was how feminine it sounded. "They'll definately know I'm a girl!" and yet again, I am proven wrong. le sigh.

Spen: I sent a response! two in fact! go me!

SUW death debate: Coldstone and Coldfire would have made a fitting capstone...I think the twins are just too young at that point to be sacrificed in such a manner. As well as wasting their future potential. That's part of the problem- you want to make it someone important but not *too* important, not someone whose death would deeply shade every story written for some time.

But looking at the topic again just now, I think I found someone who would have made a good third to die alongside the cold duo- Maria Chavez. She's canon, important to Elisa and Matt as not only their boss but as the rookie Elisa's father was partnered with. If she'd been built up a bit more throughout the first two seasons, had a little more screentime and a little more development, her loss would have been impactful without being utterly devasting. Whoever replaced her as head of the department would have had triggered even more plot, shaking up Elisa's work environment. Chavez could even have been about to discover just what Elisa's connection with the gargoyles was...Chavez's replacement could have found notes about such an investigation, possibly creating an even worse antagonist: one who knows (or thinks he knows) your secrets.

And I think season three ought to have gone a little slower, focused a little more on the fallout of the Unseelie War and the discovery of the new gargoyle clans more...if it had been a longer season, the introduction of the new plot elements wouldn't have seemed so crammed in. As it stands, it feels like we skipped a lot just for the sake of getting the season over and done with. I'm a big supporter of laying plot groundwork early on, but not to the degree that you are completely ignoring previous plots that are ready for resolution, or at least should be touched on.
Lynati
Rocks fall, everybody dies.
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 7:10:54 pm EDT from 69.148.199.172

TWIGGESS - Actually, I should point out that my last post was about the battle outside Carbonek in Season *Four* of "Pendragon", two seasons after the Second Unseelie War; I'm sorry if I didn't make it all that clear in my post.

And I'm glad that you liked the twist in the prophecy. (The original idea that I had for it was Demona and Castaway both attacking Madoc simultaneously, but that had to be dropped when we wound up having Castaway suffer a nervous breakdown in Season One. Though I think that the version that we wound up with was better, partly because it provided more of a twist, partly because Demona and Castaway both letting Madoc have it at the exact same time might have been a nightmare in choreographing.)

I've been staying out of the "Star Wars" discussion mainly because I only saw the first movie (the one that's now "A New Hope") when I was very young (my parents took me to see it), and none of the others (though I have a general idea about their contents), and don't have strong feelings for or against the two trilogies. (The movie trilogy that I'm more likely to get into a discussion about is the Peter Jackson adaptation of the Lord of the Rings.) I will confess, however, that I was relieved to hear Adam indicate that he was leaving the comment room for good, simply because his posts about Star Wars were getting too repetitive (as in, reminding me of Churchill's definition of a fanatic as someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 6:56:48 pm EDT from 4.244.210.240

DPH> I honestly don't think Titania did that.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 5:58:50 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I was just watching the end of the Gathering part 2, and a wierd thought crossed my mind.

What if Titania set up the crisis in Walkabout as an attempt to create a crisis where Fox's powers would come to the surface? Then, at the end of the Gathering part 2, that's what Titania told Fox.

I knew it's crazy, but it's a wierd thought that come to me just now.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 5:44:31 pm EDT from 63.232.249.167

For a twenty-six year-old to call people he/she/it hasn't even met jackasses says much more about that person than it does us.

I guess we can return now to our regularly scheduled Comment Room. ;)

In any event, I gottah agree with Greg B. here. Granted, Greg W. had a team of awesome dudes and dudettes with him, but I, for one, have always considered Gargoyles to be Greg's baby. It never occurred to me that it would be someone else's baby. And, apparently, even with Greg W's team, I'm not the only one.

"Am I the only one beginning to think this whole comparison thing is getting old? If I am I'll shut up." -- Twiggess

Twiggess: Given the circumstances, Greg B. certainly has on many occassions asked for other references, but Adam never seemed to give 'em. We gottah work with what we're given. ;)

But, you know what's funny? He says he's through with us, yet he still leaves his e-mail. I'm tempted to continue this -- fascinating -- debate . . . *rubs hands in plotting fashion* He seemed to ignore my point about conventional society VS expanded universi . . .
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 4:48:04 pm EDT from 69.230.55.195

Adam> Jackass is one word.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 4:26:06 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I'm through with you jack asses.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 4:03:13 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

(sorry double post)

Opps. That last sentence wasn't supposed to be considered part of the RP, but I guess it DID kinda trail off into it. Sincere apologies.
Twiggess
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 3:23:39 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

<Hayden Christiansin could be replaced with a block of wood.> Just as long as it was a "hot" block of wood. Ditto Natalie Portman ;)
Twiggess
Sigh.
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 3:20:57 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

Twiggess - There are rules about rp. See tgs cr rule #10. I'd love to bring rp back, but if we can get at least 3 people.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 3:18:57 pm EDT from 63.232.251.70

ADAM> Yes, Greg had help, but I've met these people. Frank Paur, Michael Reaves, Brynne Chandler, Lydia Marano, the late Gary Sperling, and they all say that "Gargoyles" was Greg Weisman's baby.

"Some of your stuff, in my opinion, is better than some of the original gargoyles and maybe better than the new comics."

And while we appreciate that, I think most of us would disagree with you. And how the FUCK can you make that comment on the comics when THEY AREN'T EVEN OUT YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me borrow your crystal ball. I want to bet on sporting events.

I was on TGS from 1997 to 2005. And even I'll say there was a lot of stuff done that I don't like, or could have been executed a hell. The aforementioned Demona stuff in the first two seasons was so far out of character, it wasn't even the same character. Granted we got the well written Madame Destine fanfics out of it, but, well... that was not a Demona I personally wanted to play with.

As for whether I'd ditch Greg if he fucked up? Well, at this point Greg Weisman is a friend of mine, so I probably wouldn't. I would give him very honest feedback, and to be honest, I have already given him very honest feedback. Which is why I don't see Greg going the way of George Lucas.

Lucas surrounds himself with Yes-Men who constantly kiss his ass and stroke his ego. I've met people who worked for LucasFilms, trust me on this. He is so out of touch, and convinced he is King Midas, everything he touches is gold. Personally, I think everything he touches now turns to shit, but that's me. Greg has close friends in the fandom, he is not out of touch. If we think he is not doing good work, we will tell him. Not to bitch and moan, but to improve the product.

<<And on Star Wars. I find most of the expanded universe to be better than the new prequels. I just don't get cought up in nitpicking about what I don't like about them. I enjoy them for what they are. They maybe imperfect, but that's all we have. And when George was adding the new scenes, he was just trying to bring the two triligies closer together.>>

So, if all three movies consisted of George Lucas on an IMAX screen, taking a shit, you'd still enjoy it? Because that is not too far from what we got.

Hayden Christenson could be replaced with a block of wood. Natalie Portman was an embarassment. I feel so sorry for Ewan McGreggor for doing good movies like "Trainspotting" only to come around and do this shit. And Jake Lloyd? If you didn't want to wrap your hands around his neck and squeeze, you are not human.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 3:12:18 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

BEGIN RP:

*Twiggess opens her mouth to say something (most likely along the lines of "ENOUGH WITH THE PUCKIN' STAR WARS/TREK ALREADY!!!") when out of nowhere Banshee appears and stuffs her magical gag in Twiggess' mouth.

Twiggess: Mmm! Mmhmhhum?
Banshee points across the room at Claw, who is holding a sign that says, JUST LET IT GO.

Twiggess: Skakes head blankly.
Claw turns over sign. NO COMMENT.

Twiggess guestures to Claw to come over, poofs in a magic marker and writes below that: But this is a COMMENT ROOM! I have to say SOMETHING!

Banshee sighs, snaps her fingers, and gag falls out.

*****END RP

Am I the only one beginning to think this whole comparison thing is getting old? If I am I'll shut up.

But hey, we haven't had an RP in awhile, huh?
Twiggess
Sigh.
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 2:40:08 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

But we must not forget that Greg is not the only one who was involved in Gargoyles. There were writers, editor, producer and such. He may have had an over all vision of what he thought Gargoyles should be, but his wasn't the only voice. And Greg has spent the last 10 years giving fans like us little snip its of his plan. So who is to say that they will stay the same. Like I have said before, I really like some of the stuff the TGS has done (unoffically) for the Gargoyles universe. Some of your stuff, in my opinion, is better than some of the original gargoyles and maybe better than the new comics. Only time will tell.

And on Star Wars. I find most of the expanded universe to be better than the new prequels. I just don't get cought up in nitpicking about what I don't like about them. I enjoy them for what they are. They maybe imperfect, but that's all we have. And when George was adding the new scenes, he was just trying to bring the two triligies closer together.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 2:14:36 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

"If you don't like him because he is releasing another set of DVDs, then you should not like any other movies or their directors when they come out with more than one version of the movie." -- Adam

Adam: Lucas rewrote that which was already written. He tampered with something that was already set in stone -- at least in my opinion. And again, in my opinion, that's a huge fricken' NO-NO. I don't care if he owns the licesne/franchise lock-stock-barrel. This shows me that even _he_ doesn't know his own story completely, and that says much more about him than it does me or anyone else disliking the fact that he changed the original three movies . . . Which were, and again this is just my opinion --- MUCH BETTER than the poop he came out with recently.

Now, unless I'm mistaken, Greg hasn't done anything like that, except for perhaps TGC -- but we _all_ know the story behind that. ;) TGC aside, I think it's safe to say that "Greg knows his shit" - pardon my language. Additionally, he may have an advantage: IT IS NOT WRITTEN. He can change whatever the heck he dang well pleases as long as it isn't on some publicly-viewable website. Furthermore, that which _IS_ written _HASN'T BEEN TAMPERED WITH_. Greg not only knows his stuff when it comes to his own story/Master Plan for Gargoyles, but he also knows how _stupid_ it would be to change something that's already been done -- and harder on his, part, too: change cell-animation? Good _luck_, buddy. ;)

Mecord asked of us if we'd ditch Greg if he "executed his Master Plan as poorly" as George Lucas seems to have . . . I think I would. The reason I got onto the Gargoyles bandwagon in the first place was because of the storytelling, and it's the main reason why I'm still around. Watching Gargoyles showed me how to write good stories -- whether or not I've succeeded is another story altogether but practice makes perfect! I, and likely others, would feel quite dismayed -- perhaps even betrayed? -- by Greg is he went down the path of Lucas. Many of us here have likely met Greg, and I think it's safe to say that, knowing what we do of him, he wouldn't do that, so we're pretty damn lucky in that regard. ;) Pardon my language once more.

Movies VS Expanded Universe (or Xande Nivrs, if you're a Twisted ToyFare Theater fan ;) ) :
The Expanded Universe of any franchise is just that -- _EXPANDED_. Not everyone is going to get into it. I have no interest in the Expanded Univers-i of either Star Trek _or_ Star Wars. These are gifts for the diehard/hardcore fans who just can't get enough of the movies. The movies are the staple of the pop culture, but the expanded universi are merely an addition to what is accepted in the conventioal widsom of society. More-or-less, since the demographic for an expanded universe is _MUCH_ smaller than the society as a whole, not everyone is going to know (much less care) about what happens in Timothy Zhan's interpretation of the New Jedi Order.

And I just know that because I'm a bookseller. :-P
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 2:05:46 pm EDT from 69.230.55.195

Greg) Yeah, I agree about the Cold Duo. I didn't get the point of that at all. To be blunt *warning, Coldduo fans look away* I seriously think they should have just killed them off.

<"You can't have Thailog do that....it's mean!"> I'm sorry I have responded to that in my other posts, but it is so ludicrious it's taken this long to sink in. That's like saying "Xanatos can't do that...it'd be too expensive!"

Adam- actually, everone in general: Random question- about a year or so ago, they had a special on TV Land called "TV's 100 Most Memorable Moments" or somthing like that. Marina Sirtis did commentary. They were talking about the season finale when Picard had been taken over by the borg, and Ms. Sirtis mimicked Patrick Stuart's "I am the borg, resistance is futile!" line, using her "Demona" voice. Did anyone else see that? It completely cracked me up. Just wondering...
Twiggess
"In my professional opinion as Ship's Councilor- he's nuts!" First Contact.
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 1:49:58 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

And, as we've seen with Picard, a Borg can be brought back. Coldstone however is metal and animated stone, no flesh and blood at all. He and Coldfire cannot be restored... I don't care what that TGS story says.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 1:34:23 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

But one thing you need to remember about the Borg is that they were once alive. The coldtrio were destroyed and then brought back to life with sorcery and science. A little different. I think of Coldstone as more like Frankenstien. But the resemblance between Q and Puck is really cool. They both like to be amused.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 1:29:25 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

A thousand pardons, I meant the Star WARS thing. I would be perfectly happy to discuss Trek (although comparing the Colds to the Borg I would probably frown on. Not much, though. Puck and Q, OH HECK YES I'd WUV to start a dicussion comparing and dicribing thoughs 2-though admittedly it probably wouldn't last too long.)

Oh yeah, and sorry for the double post (it seems to me yesterday anytime we apologized for double posts, someone posted something else while we were typing. Anyone else notice that?)
Twiggess
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 12:38:08 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

Todd) YES! One of my completely random suggestions is being discussed! Yay!

Honesty, I don't know how I would have killed off. Maybe one of the clones, but that wouldn't have had much impact, so it would be rather pointless. Well, I suppose it could have rattled Hutson a bit, but he is an "Old Soldier" already used to the concept of war, so again, not much point. Delilah would have been interesting to kill off, but she needed more character developement (besides, I completely crack up whenever I read "Something Old, Something New" when she says she doesn't know why Demona hates her. That is possibly the most niave thing I've ever heard in my life.)

One thing I really liked about that last battle (sorry, forgot the name of the ep) is that, frankly, the "villains" are the ones seriously kicking @$$. George with his bells, Dracon and the grocery guy, and- oh I just love the prophecy. LOVE it. If it was legal I would marry the thing. It always bugs me whenever the main characters just HAVE to be the "chosen" ones, what a coincidence that everything automatically hinges on THEM, just because they are the leads of the show. Admittedly, when Madoc first explained about the prophecy, I gagged. Great, what a Disney-esque cliche. But Demmie jumped out of that tree and the truth sank in, I was ROTFLMAO! I think I might have even cried a little, I was so winded. I know I definitely clapped.

And my applause stands. :)

Oh yeah, and as long as we do not start comparing the stuff that Vader's suit is made out of with the stuff I Coldtrio's is made of, I will sit on my hands about the Star Trek matter. FOR NOW.
Twiggess
"Life IS pain; anyone who says differently is selling something." -from "The Princess Bride"
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2006 12:14:54 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

Inspired by Bishansky's musings earlier on who ought to have died in the SUW, I'd like to raise this question.

As I mentioned before, we had the potential controversy (though it got far less talk than the similar controversy for the SUW) that none of the people on Arthur's side were killed in the fight outside Carbonek in the Season Four finale. (Avallach and Leonard both died, but neither one in battle.) I knew that it could lead to questions, but the big problem was that almost all of the combatants among the "good guys" were supporting characters, who didn't have big roles in the main issues of the episode (as opposed to the Magus, who was a lead character throughout "Avalon" aside from his death), and that their deaths could have meant the danger of the audience being distracted from Arthur's big resolutions at the end. Probably the only characters whom we could have killed off without that problem would have been one of the four regulars.

Merlin and Mary were out of the question, since our plans for the series required them to survive long enough to grow up, get married, and have two children (Romulus and Angelica). So that would narrow it down to Griff or Arthur.

GRIFF: Griff's death might actually have worked for a casualty. He was the closest to Arthur of all the allies taking part in the battle outside, had been Arthur's first friend in the modern world (if you leave out the Avalon clan, Goliath, and Elisa, and Arthur probably didn't get as close to them as he did to Griff), and had played a major role in the episode convincing the London clan to carry out its duty as gargoyles. (He was also the only London gargoyle who was really that close to Arthur, and whose death could therefore have a true impact on him - which is also an important consideration.)

ARTHUR: The big problem with it would be that it would raise the issues over how Arthur was supposed to become a king again, and it turns out that he doesn't. But there was one odd little appeal to the idea. The Great Wrong that started the feud with Morgana that led to the events of Season Four was Merlin arranging Arthur's conception for the purpose of bringing about Arthur's life and reign. As long as Arthur lives and is continuing to carry out his role as the "great king", then the Great Wrong is still in place, and a nemesis is still waiting to avenge it (if Morgana dies, then a new agent will simply come along to replace her, most likely). If Arthur dies, on the other hand, and somebody else takes his place to found New Camelot, then the Great Wrong is no longer relevant and New Camelot can no longer be pursued and threatened by somebody seeking to avenge Gorlois and Igraine.

(Admittedly, one problem that I did have with King Arthur is that the Arthur of the Gargoyles Universe - and TGS - never really stood apart from conventional takes on Arthur. Compare him to Macbeth, say; the Macbeth of the Gargoyles Universe stands apart from the Macbeth of Shakespeare in his own right. On the other hand, a lot of Arthur's traits felt maybe too familiar - such as longing for Merlin to be around to advise him; the lone exception was his stubborn refusal to accept the possibility that Excalibur might be meant for somebody else this time around - and that became a moot point after the television episode "Pendragon".)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 10:15:21 pm EDT from 4.245.17.27

Well it finally happened, Pluto is now downgraded from planet to dwarf planet.

It's still raining and flooding in Albuquerque.

I watch movies for many reasons, just like tv shows and books. Sometimes you must have totally mindless entertainment, sometimes serious and sometimes just something different. Different is going to a movie with two nieces ages 6 and 10. Going to Wal-Mart's toy section with above mentioned nieces is suicidal.

I was at a convention in Phoenix when Star Wars first broke. All the young teens had to be Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader. I didn't see the show until it came to Albuquerque, I enjoyed it and was willing to see the sequals. The prequels left me not so much cold as indifferent. Every movie from the first Star Trek to the Pirates of the Carribean will have different reactions. Sometimes I love the costuming, sometimes I loath them. Mindless special effects are Ok, but I do like a good story.

Having grown up with the original FF, Spiderman, X-men etc., I have for the most part, enjoyed the upgrade to more modern origins and characters. I have rarely watched a movie that I couldn't find something good about.

Remember, each decade, each year brings something different to watch and analyze. Anne McCaffrey's son is now writing in her Pern universe. I feel his stories are good and will grow. After all, more than any of us, he grew up on Pern. George Lucas grew away from the shows that formed his basis as a guru and may never be the person he was thirty some years ago. Who is?

Life is change. Our tastes change and yet we are always willing to try for our younger selves tastes with more mature feelings and eyes.

I have been watching Project Runway and Who Wants To Be A Superhero. Two totally different type of reality shows. They both are fun. Cannon Gargoyles and TGS are worlds apart, but equally great reads in my book. If you enjoy something, do so. If the author/director is not performing as you'd like, write you own stories that's what fanfic is for.

So enjoy life, enjoy and share what makes you happy, TGS has.
Starsinger
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 9:50:44 pm EDT from 209.240.206.209

Adam: Wow. Be sure to give Star Wars Kid my regards the next time you see him. Unless you ARE him, in which case, don't give up hope! I'm sure George Lucas will put you in the revised version of "Revenge of the Sith" that he originally wanted to make when he releases the Six DVD Box Set!

And here's something else:

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=150
Harvester of Eyes
"Burger King! Where all Dragon Masters eat!" -Triumph.
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 9:47:34 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

::Drops this off::

http://www.starterupsteve.com/video/Conan-Triumph-Star-Wars.html
Greg Bishansky - [<--- George Lucas's Table Scraps]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 9:40:02 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I have seen both of them. My copy of Casablanca is in black and white. I also own an old VHS of the movie in color. But because of fan backlash, they went back to black and white. Lucas is doing the same with with the original triligy.

As for not liking the way Anakin turned to the dark side, you need to read why Luke did it. That was really stupid, even Lucas said that.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 9:26:30 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

And Daredevil and Elektra are horrible movies also, and you're talking to someone who loves the comic book characters.

As for Casablanca and Gone With the Wind, I am curious, have you ever actually watched those two excellent films? Well, my copies on DVD are in black and white. Colorizing old films is a crime, so if it happened, it was restored.

Yes, Lucas has the right to change his movies, as they are his... I also have the right to take buckets of paint and make my car look like a moving acid trip... but I won't because it is retarded.

But no where did I point out the Special Editions, so stop falling back on that shit and stick to the points that were made.

Until you do that, you're On Notice. See:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/gregx/OnNotice5.jpg

You're worse than the Rabid Inu Yasha Fangirls but are slightly better than Velvet. That's where you live now.

;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- You're On Notice]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 9:10:31 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I like lots of things. Pro wrestling, some Star Trek, sports, LOTRs. I never liked the LOTR books because I do not like Tolkens writing style.

And if you don't like Lucas because he changes his movies, the last time I checked, he owned them and can do with him whatever he wants. If you don't like him because he is releasing another set of DVDs, then you should not like any other movies or their directors when they come out with more than one version of the movie. They redid Casablanca and Gone With theWind in color and I have two versions of Daredevil and Elektra. There called special edition or directors cut.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 8:48:31 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

Oh, forgot to add this, but this says a lot of what needs to be said about Star Wars:

http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep3.php

And I actually like the original trilogy, but they're just enjoyable movies. If I want substance, I'll put on Kurasawa or Hitchcock.
Harvester of Eyes
"No, no, NO! YOU WILL DIE!" -If you needed any further proof that George Lucas cannot write his way out of an empty room, I offer this bit of unretouched dialogue from "Revenge of the Sith."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 8:39:26 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

A few mythological objects that haven't appeared in TGS (or at most, have only been casually mentioned, the way that Elisa mentioned Loch Ness in "The Edge" - which gives them all the more reason for inclusion, in that case, given the unwritten law of "Gargoyles" that if they mention a mythical being or object, it's going to show up later in the series):

The Golden Fleece (though King Arthur alludes to it in "Preservation")

The Sampo from the Kalevala

The Philosopher's Stone

Durendal (the sword of Roland)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 8:38:31 pm EDT from 4.245.17.27

Magical Items> Well, I can't name them off the top of my head, but a good list of magical artifacts can be found on Wikipedia, though anything found there requires further research to verify facts and whatnot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mythical_objects

There's also a few listed from Arthurian legends. For example, did you know that in some of the legends Mordred wounds Arthur in the last battle with the sword Clarent. Clarent is the sword that Arthur pulled from the stone. It was supposed to symbolize peace and the code of the knights. Mordred stoll it for his own use.

While I was looking around, I also found a site that claims the Gae Bolga later became the Spear of Longinus. Yeah. I wont bother posting that URL.

Gargoyles vs. Star Wars> I know I should probably let this topic rest. But as I have studied Star Wars from a literary perspective I can say that the movies can stand against some of the great films and hold its own (despite it's many drawbacks). I know that this is a general statement and no, I'm not going to justify it (so please don't ask). That would subject you to a ten page paper or a very long point-by-point discussion, niether of which I feel like doing.

What I will do, is make a comparison between Gargoyles and Star Wars. Someone said the two can't really be compared, but I find several similarities. First of all there is a single individual whom the fans generally consider the mastermind. Secondly, it grabs the imagination. This is perhaps Star Wars' greatest strength. The concept is impressive, even when the execution isn't. Both Gargoyles and Star Wars use themes and story concepts derived from ancient mythology (it's not as obvious in Star Wars, but it's there). Then there's a large intermission in the story telling. The fans find out there's a master plan and eagerly search for any hint about the plan. In the meantime, there is much fan fiction. Then at last the story continues and the fans are eager to see the saga continue.

This beggs the question: What happens if Greg Weisman's master plan is executed as poorly as Lucas's prequels? Will we stop being fans, or will we stay loyal to the creative concepts that attracted us to it in the first place?

Well, I've said a mouthfull, so I'll shut up now.
Mecord
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 8:37:12 pm EDT from 63.230.5.218

Adam: Okay, you've convinced me! I think that in the Gargoyles comic, Jason and Jon's first meeting should be in a steel factory. Jon could have a glowing, double-bladed sword and Jason could be in a rocket-powered wheelchair equipped with lethal gadgets, a la Charles Xavier or Alistair Smythe. They tear the place apart for several pages, and then Demona could crash the party... in a nuclear-equipped walking battle tank loaded with 20mm Vulcan Cannons, a railgun, and surface-to-air missiles! After lots more battling (involving a few interludes with strippers and robot sharks, and involves Demona blowing up the city of Paris for NO REASON, just because it looks cool!), the fight ends with Jon Canmore getting scalding hot coffee thrown in his face, which scars him so badly that he can't survive outside of a steel mask. That would definitely be more entertaining than a REAL story.

Me, I hate George Lucas because he's a revisionist asshole. I'm wondering if Sebastian Shaw and Jason Wingreen stole his lunch money or something, because he seems determined to edit them out of the original trilogy. And honestly, you should watch "King Kong" again. George Lucas may have helped bring about a lot of the technology we see today, but there are directors who can utilize it in ways Lucas never could: to actually HELP the story.

Greg B: <Come to think of it, I don't recall her appearing significantly in any stories involving the Quarrymen.> Funny you should mention that. If I ever manage to stop procrstinating, I'll be able to finish that thing I told you about...

<I remember once, an idea was proposed for some horrible thing Thailog could do... and he said "You can't have Thailog do that, it's mean!" Um... Thailog is a malevolent, sadistic character.> Yup, Xanatos himself said it: he created a monster. Though I do hope that in TGS, he eventually becomes the gargoyle he once was, physically anyway.
Harvester of Eyes
"No, no, NO! YOU WILL DIE!" -If you needed any further proof that George Lucas cannot write his way out of an empty room, I offer this bit of unretouched dialogue from "Revenge of the Sith."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 8:34:19 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

*makes a note about that*
Lynati
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 7:10:10 pm EDT from 69.148.199.172

Actually, the Spear of Longinus *has* (in a way) gotten into TGS, in the form of the Godslayer in Season Four of "Pendragon". That is, the Godslayer played the same role that the Spear of Longinus does in the Grail romances - it's used to cripple the Fisher King. We didn't mention it having any connection to Longinus and the Crucifixion, of course, because that could be controversial (just as we didn't mention the Holy Grail's connections to Jesus Christ and the Last Supper), but we still had it in mind when we developed the Godslayer. (Though it contains elements from other mythical spears, too: the account of its making was inspired by the making of Wotan's spear in Wagner's Ring Cycle, and we also fused it with the spear of Achilles from Homer's Iliad.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 6:20:02 pm EDT from 4.245.17.27

Lynati> Spear of Longinus is a biggie.
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 6:09:59 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I'm compiling a list of nifty "magical" (or mythology-linked) artifacts that have *not* yet made an appearance in TGS. Can I have a little group participation from the room to help me out?
Lynati
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 6:01:11 pm EDT from 69.148.199.172

Adam> <<Ask directors like Peter Jackson and James Cameron and see were they got their directing style from.>>

Really? Last I saw, they could get actors to ::GASP:: actually emote!

And then you have brilliant directors like Scorsese and Quentin Tarantino who don't get their styles from from him. I like Cameron and Jackson, but Scorsese and Tarantino have more talent than they do.

But, I need to ask. Have you seen any of the other movies I mentioned?

Besides TGS and Star Wars, what else do you like?
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 5:27:08 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I am not talking about Lucas's directing. I'm talking about the way films are made. Ask directors like Peter Jackson and James Cameron and see were they got their directing style from.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 5:21:01 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

Ugh... I keep thinking of more to say.

Adam> If the quality of something is measured by the money it makes, than does that make Power Rangers better than Gargoyles?
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 5:10:11 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Adam> You got something brown on your nose there.

The reason why we disrespect him is because he is a sell out hack. It is very telling that the best Star Wars movie, he didn't write or direct.

And I think there are people who had more of an impact than him. Martin Scorsese for one, has made some of the greatest movies of all time. Francis Ford Copola gave us "The Godfather" and "Apocalypse Now." Both are much better than anything Lucas has been involved with.

What about Michael Curtiz? He directed fucking "Casablanca"!

And Stanley Kubrik, "A Clockwork Orange", "The Shining", "Dr. Strangelove", "Full Metal Jacket"

Or Alfred Hitchcock! Or Orson Welles... "Citizen Kane"

Obviously, you're someone who thinks he appreciates film. Put down "Star Wars" for a bit, and go rent yourself some GREAT movies.

Oh, and if we're talking fantasy trilogies, how many Oscars did "Lord of the Rings" get? Hmmm, so who got the better of who?
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 5:09:23 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Last time I checked the amount of money a movie makes does not determine it's quality. What does determine the quality? How about the factors I just listed. Plot, writing, characters and character development and great acting?

I do not hate Star Wars. It's fun set of movies, but I am saying there are BETTER movies out there.
Spacebabie - [spacebabie@hotmail.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 5:05:00 pm EDT from 70.185.5.174

Last time I checked, Star Wars has pasted the test of time. Say what you want to about Lucas, but he is one of the great all time minds in movie history. I don't know why people have a problem with him. People seem to hate him for the same reason hate Vince McMahon. Why? Because they are succefull. Because they make a ton of money. George Lucas impacted the way movies are made probably more than anyone else.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 4:39:00 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

A little late to the whole Star Wars debate but I wouldn’t compare Gargoyles or Weisman to Star Wars. Fun trilogy and all that but doesn’t hold a candle to some of the more better movies out there.

Indiana Jones was a better trilogy, but it’s also got the taint of Lucas on it.

LOTR a much better trilogy. It has several elements that make Gargoyles so great, plot and writing and of course great acting.

Pirates of the Caribbean is shaping up to be a great trilogy and much better than Star Wars. Great dialogue, fun characters: Jack Sparrow, Pintel and Ragetti, Davy Jones. Character development. Look at the differences between Elizabeth and Norrington in the two movies. Story lines are better than Star Wars…and of course the acting is amazing, but then again we have talented folk such as Johnny Depp (Who I have been a fan of since I was 13) Geoffrey Rush, Bill Nighy and Jack Davenport (Who I am becoming more of a fan of, my god that man has such a sexy voice it causes an eargasm) Wait I’m getting off of tangent here. Also plenty of humor that doesn’t deviate from the fact that it’s an action/adventure flick with plenty of fantasy

Then there are movies and shows that are not trilogies but are much better than Stars.

Like anything from Joss Whedon: Buffy, Angel, Firefy/Serenity. What does it have? Plot, great writing, great characters, character development, great acting.
Spacebabie - [spacebabie@hotmail.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 4:04:34 pm EDT from 70.185.5.174

I really am never comfortable talking about that, because I don't want anyone to take it personally.

But I do not like how Demona was handled in the first two seasons of TGS. It was out of character. It was so far out of character, it wasn't the character. Demona loves Angela, yes. But, she is also a genocidal sociopath. She loves Angela, but she hates humanity more.

Angela would have become Demona's newest excuse. "I must destroy humanity to protect my daughter." Her new way to justify it. And I think there was a missed oppurtunity to explore this while the Quarrymen were still around. Come to think of it, I don't recall her appearing significantly in any stories involving the Quarrymen.

I just don't think Angela waving a finger in Demona's face would stop her. Demona strikes me as a believer in "tough love".
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 3:34:42 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I'm sure I will enjoy season 4. It seemed to me that season 3 was really more spent building up to season 4. Maybe that's why it comes off rather weak. And I'll admit, I'm completely bias in favor of Demona being remorseful- though I'm not all together sure I'd want the clan to forgive her. Plus pretty much in any fic I've found where she has an ephiany the foundation for her change of heart is made of sand and the clan just automatically jumps at the chance to forgive her. That's almost as bad as TGC, IMHO. I was kinda hoping TGS would provide a REALISTIC platform for this-and it was great the first 2 seasons-but they kinda got rid of that in S3. I understand that you personally were against Demona stopping her quest for genocide just because Angie told her off about it in "Perchance to Dream," and I agree with your reasoning, but the 180 in S3 was a little too fast for me. It was like the writers had been told the gists and key points of the first seasons, but they were ignoring the character developement. I apologize if I've rambled on a bit.
Twiggess
Beware shellfish in Chinese food.
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 3:21:49 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

Sorry for all the double posts today.

Twigess> The problem with season 3 was, well, yes we were understaffed while working on it. But, also, without naming names, there was a lot of conflict at the time on where to take the series, what general direction, and well... the general tone as well.

One prominent staff member at the time basically wanted to take things in the direction where the series would look more like an 80s cartoon. Basically, a castration of the series. His ideas lacked balls. It was more like an episode of GI Joe or the old TMNT cartoon than "Gargoyles".

I remember once, an idea was proposed for some horrible thing Thailog could do... and he said "You can't have Thailog do that, it's mean!" Um... Thailog is a malevolent, sadistic character.

So, if you look at season 3 of TGS, you can kind of see it being pulled in two different directions. Ultimately the side I was on won out, and that staff member resigned.

If season four gets off the ground, and I hope it does, I think you'll like it. It's not like season 3, though a lot of the better elements in season 3 do carry over. And, it's very different from seasons one and two also. A lot darker. And that is all I will say.
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 3:06:07 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I apologize for the double post, but in case anyone here cares or read it already, I fixed the little italic problem on my fic "Shrimp Witch."

(Plug? What plug? That wasn't a plug. I just thought the people have a right to know these things. If that was a PLUG, I would beg for them to go read it in the offical website's archive and grovel for feedback. I haven't done that. Sure, if the room gets to dead and we are in need of subject matter we MIGHT discuss it, if they want to, but I have no idea what you are talking about with this shameless plug thing!) :)
Twiggess
Beware shellfish in Chinese food.
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 2:57:00 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

ADAM> We never added Coldsteel to the Pack. In TGS, at least in season 3, Coldsteel allied with Thailog, and the Pack is on Thailog's payroll. But he's not a part of the Pack.
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 2:56:42 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Adam: <I think you guys must have had some good forsight> I don't know if it was forsight or if Greg Wiesman had just TOLD them what he planned to do, but I liked what you did at any rate (obviously- otherwise I wouldn't be here right now.) It was great to see all the characters' gain more depth, although just like the series I wish we could have seen more Thailog. Especially since I wasn't that wild about season 3 (no offense to anyone here, and I understand you were understaffed at the time and still are.)
Twiggess
"You ARE learning!" Archmage
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 2:43:47 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

I think you guys must have some good forsight. By the end of the third season of your gargoyles, you added Coldsteel to the Pack and had them allied with Thailog. Greg Weisman said that there would be a new member of the Pack, and that Coldstone and Coldfire would be joining the Manhattan clan. That could mean one of two things. That either Coldsteel was destroyed or that Coldsteel was near New York and such a threat that the Coldduo would join the clan.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 2:36:29 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

Quite alright. I actually thought Lynati was a guy, so we're even (but then I'm a con-virgin- despite the fact that I lived 30 minutes away from Willamsburg in 2002, ARGH!!!-so that's not as bad a mistake as it could be. I hope.)
Twiggess
"Fezzik at this heroic moment knew what he wanted most to do: suck his thumb forever." Excerpt from "Buttercup's Baby" (sequel to "Princess Bride")
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 2:04:56 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

Whoops, sorry. Same purple text as her's. My mistake.
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 1:57:07 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Greg) That wasn't Lynati, it was me. I should probably change my font, huh? But I thank you for the awknowledgement all the same :)

One of the twins would have been good. Perhaps one of the Cold Duo (I mean they just get shoved off to Avalon anyway, right?)

I wonder where Coldsteel was during all of this...
Twiggess
"Fezzik at this heroic moment knew what he wanted most to do: suck his thumb forever." Excerpt from "Buttercup's Baby" (sequel to "Princess Bride")
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 1:54:26 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

And because this is still first and foremost the TGS CR, and I actually rather like Lynati's suggestion over what we should kill each other over instead.

Who should have died in the SUW?

It is kind of heavy, and I'm sure TGS S&P would have balked, but I think one of the twins should have died. Graeme or Ariana. Because, they are fighting a war, they are warriors all the same, and well... look at some of those pictures from the Middle East of dead children. Tough to see.

Plus, TGS has covered a lot of issues, Gargoyles as a whole covered a lot of issues. Brooklyn and Sata having to "bury" a child could have been a brilliant story, plus seeing it weigh on them later. A tug of war between a Gargoyle's natural instict to protect and be a warrior versus their desire to watch their surviving child grow up.
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 1:46:12 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

While I disagree with you whole-heartedly (particlarly when it comes to the actors. I mean, hello, look where we are!) I don't see what that has to do with anything. I'm not going to dispute it with you, since I haven't read the books or comics or whatever Star Wars median your defending, but I will say this: JUST CHANGE THE SUBJECT. I'm rather sick of watching everyone bicker about this. I'm sorry if that's harsh, but, well, there you go.
Twiggess
"Fezzik at this heroic moment knew what he wanted most to do: suck his thumb forever." Excerpt from "Buttercup's Baby" (sequel to "Princess Bride")
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 1:44:19 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

ADAM> "Greg, would it surprise you to know that the Mace Wiindu in the prequels is the SECOND Mace Windu in the Star Wars universe."

It's not that it surprises me, it's that, I really don't care.

"But Star Wars much better than Star Trek."

I'm not really a Trekker, but "Wrath of Khan" is much better than any "Star Wars" movie.

Dude, aside from TGS and "Gargoyles", is there anything else you like?
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 1:40:41 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

But Star Wars much better than Star Trek.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 1:23:10 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

AAACK! I'm gone for what, 2 days and suddenly I come back and suddenly we're debating why and why not George Lucas/ Star Wars sucks? You disapoint me, people.

Fire Storm: Still can't breathe, thanks so much!

Todd: I get that whole thing about Madoc not having to help too much with giving gargs bad PR, but what about the fact that gargoyles were originally placed on places of worship to scare away demons and the like? I'm not disputing your assessment, I just thought I'd throw that in there.

Now, I have to go check my over stuffed inbox, so try to be good while Auntie Twiggy is gone, alright? No attempting to murder each other over an "Empire Strikes Back" dispute. If you MUST kill each other, try to commit homicide over who should have died in the SUW or something, kay? ;)
Twiggess
"Fezzik at this heroic moment knew what he wanted most to do: suck his thumb forever." Excerpt from "Buttercup's Baby" (sequel to "Princess Bride")
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 12:47:07 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

Greg, would it surprise you to know that the Mace Wiindu in the prequels is the SECOND Mace Windu in the Star Wars universe. Off course the Expanded universe is important. The whole concept of the Sith was created by Kevin J. Anderson. Some of the best characters like Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn and Aalya Secula were all created in the Expanded Universe. The deaths of Chewbacca, Mon Mothma, Admiral Ackbar, and General Madine all happened off screne.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 10:58:48 am EDT from 67.190.200.144

Lynati : "I forgot to reply to Spen about forgetting to reply to his email." No problem. And on a related note, I (finally) have a working e-mail account. I'll send you a note later tonight to let you know what the new address is, since I'm exceedingly paranoid about spam.

Harvester : "the male and female lead did not wind up together at the end" Really? Mental note: watch that movie ASAEP.
Spen
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2006 12:09:11 am EDT from 216.248.119.208

But, I shouldn't have to read the books and comics for that info. I've got much better things to read. "Star Wars" is, at it's core, a series of movies. Everything else is gravy.

As much as I love "Babylon 5", I think using some of the novels to tie up loose ends was a mistake also, and I do call JMS on that. Though JMS is much more talented than Lucas.
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 10:16:49 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Adam: Yeah, but considering the fact that he had even told Mace that he needed Palpatine alive so he could learn how to save Padme, his wanting to overthrow the Emperor didn't even make any sense! Honestly, I'm in the same camp as a lot of people I've talked to. The tragedy of Anakin Skywalker actually stands up better without the first three episodes.

Greg B: You've made me so happy! You have no idea how much I love Scorsese. "Casino" and "Raging Bull" are two of my favorite movies. In fact, there is a degree of separation between George Lucas and Scorsese, and one of the many exhibits I use to illustrate why George Lucas is a dick. He was perusing the script to one of Scorsese's films, a movie called "New York, New York." Which I'll admit is not one of Scorsese's best. But I like the fact that the male and female lead did not wind up together at the end, and I applaud Scorsese for doing what he usually does in his movies, and not resorting to the formulaic happy ending. But when George Lucas read the script, he told Scorsese, "you know, Marty, if you have the two characters wind up together at the end, you can easily add a few extra zeroes to the film's total box office take." That right there says it all.

I actually like the premise behind the first Star Wars movie in 1977. They didn't have much, but they did the best they could with what they had. And then sometime around "Jedi," whatever artistic merit he had was sacrificed for the almighty dollar.

And, yes, "Empire" was the perfect collaboration. Veteran director, veteran screenwriter, with George Lucas as executive producer and story outliner. If he had continued to do that, perhaps the prequels might have been so much more.
Harvester of Eyes
"No, no, NO! YOU WILL DIE!" -If you needed any further proof that George Lucas cannot write his way out of an empty room, I offer this bit of unretouched dialogue from "Revenge of the Sith."
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 9:14:47 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

And if your just looking at the Star Wars movies to get your info, then you are uninformed. Read some of the books and comics, you will learn much from them. Also, Anakin planned on overthroughing the Emperor. He said so in Episode 3. He didn't exactly get along with the Jedi council. He was married and as the clone wars went on, he started to believe that only a strong military and leadership could save the galaxy.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 8:44:17 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

That's true. But they don't learn of Luke's identity until AFTER he leaves Tatooine and joins the Rebel Alliance. In the old Marvel comics Vader tortures a captured rebel pilot, and in the new Rebellian comics, Luke's childhood friend Tank is part of the Empire and through a chance meeting discovers Luke while Luke is on an undercover mission. Vader and the Emperor had no reason to believe that Padme's twins were even alive. Remember, the Emperor tells Vader that he(Vader) killed Padme, so Vader assumes that the twins were dead too.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 8:40:00 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

ADAM> That explanation is weak, and you know it. If you can accept Vader and the Emperor never finding Luke on Tattooine, then you should definitely be able to accept Owen using the same (or a similar) identity in 2198.

HoE> Or an Oscar? He's never won an Oscar. And never will ;)

Of course, Martin Scorsese has never won an Oscar, but I think any sane individual with an IQ over 20 would agree that he deserves one well before Lucas.

I mean, look at his movies: "Goodfellas", "Raging Bull", "Taxi Driver", "Casino", "Gangs of New York", "The Last Temptation of Christ".

The best movie that has George Lucas's name attached to it, "The Empire Strikes Back", he didn't even write and direct.
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 6:41:06 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Actually, the 2004 Star Wars DVD proves that Darth Vader was little more than a colossal retard. In "The Empire Strikes Back," the scene between Lord Vader and the Emperor was altered to make it seem like Vader had no idea who Luke was until he chatted with the Emperor in his chamber. When you consider that a) it says in the movie's crawl that Vader is obsessed with finding Luke, and b) Vader even calls him "Skywalker" on the bridge early in the movie, that little piece of revisionism just goes to show that Vader is really just a fucking moron. I mean, Anakin himself discovered that Palpatine was the Sith Lord responsible for plunging the galaxy into war, and he himself told Palpatine that the Jedi are devoted to the service of others, and yet he actually believed that Mace Windu was plotting to assassinate Palpatine and that the Jedi would then kill all the senators. AND his reason for turning was also pretty dumbass. In order to learn the power to save life, first you have to kill all your friends. *slaps forehead* Of course! It's all so obvious! Someone explain to me again why George Lucas has never won a Pulitzer? ( ;
Harvester of Eyes
"It's a big enough umbrella, but it's always me that ends up getting wet." -The Police (either "Ghost in the Machine" or "Synchronicity," depending on the mood)
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 5:40:57 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

I don't think anyone would have thought to look on Tatooine for anyone. It's not like Luke was in the directory. He didn't have his own place or telephone number.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 5:03:20 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

*is poked*
Lyn><<Gunjack: Okay, I've reached pieta. Pretty please find a way back online so I can keep going without accidentally buggering your plans for the bones. I hope you're both okay...>>

We are both okay. There was the usual, a little disaster, a little drama, but mostly we have not been online because I have been avoiding you. This is because avoiding you makes me feel guilty, and guilt is apparently the neccessary fuel for my *word engine*. Were I online, you would not harrass me as effectively as my conscience has.

This is me locking myself in the closet with a typewriter and not coming out till I've got the story done. Well, except for the bathroom. And I'll leave the messenger on. But seriously: small room, typewriter.

PACE!
Gunjack "Blammination" Valentine
I roll for INITIATIVE. -Tycho
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 4:47:19 pm EDT from 205.250.215.79

Adam> So? I'm sure Greg will have an explanation when he needs one. He is a good writer afterall. Certainly a better writer than, let's say George Lucas.

Gee, trying to hide Luke from his father and the Emperor, and yet they keep the Skywalker name and send him to live with the closest thing Vader has to living relatives.

When that is adequetly explained, then I'll worry about Owen.
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 1:40:35 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

But Greg hasn't said anything to that effect. And he is still using the name Owen Burnett.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 1:01:29 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

ADAM> Ever heard of Alexander Fox Xanatos IV? It's still our same Alex. Who's to say that Owen isn't doing something similar?
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 12:38:21 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I have a question about Owen Burnett/Puck. I looked through the Station 8 ask Greg web page but could not find an answer. So I am hoping you guys have one. In 2198, Owen/Puck is still protecting Alexander. But how is Puck still Owen 200 years in the future without bringing up some difficult questions? What do you guys think?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 11:14:38 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

Fire Storm: *follows link, and dies laughing*
Thank you for that. I had to buy an account so I could respond (at length) to that thread. : )

...crap...I forgot to reply to Spen about forgetting to reply to his email...AGAIN...

But hey, thirteen pages of writing featuring Demona! That's gotta count for something.

Gunjack: Okay, I've reached pieta. Pretty please find a way back online so I can keep going without accidentally buggering your plans for the bones. I hope you're both okay...
Lynati
Rocks fall, everyone dies.
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2006 5:56:56 am EDT from 69.148.199.172

Hey all! Yes, I still live.

If anyone has a Something Awful forum account, there is a thread in GBS where they are talking about the series, and someone is giving an episode by episode talk through.

Thought you may want to know.
Fire Storm
I am SO addicted to EVE, it isn't even funny.
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2006 11:41:49 pm EDT from 65.114.91.3

HARVESTER - I've a strong suspicion that Madoc contributed to those depictions of gargoyles as well. Though knowing humanity's tendency to fear things that it doesn't understand, he probably didn't need to do that much in the end.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2006 7:03:09 pm EDT from 4.245.16.98

Todd: Wouldn't it be interesting if, in the TGS Ficverse, a lot of that literature was secretly backed by Madoc?

Dezi: Well, I think Macbeth believed that the Manhattan gargoyles were the last of their kind (which was what he told Goliath). And for all we know, he might not have seen another gargoyle in all the time he was hunting for Demona. And she had been leading a clan in the 11th Century that were also believed to be the last gargoyles on earth. He might have just been drawing on his memories of those days.
Harvester of Eyes
"It's a big enough umbrella, but it's always me that ends up getting wet." -The Police (either "Ghost in the Machine" or "Synchronicity," depending on the mood)
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2006 5:48:57 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

I think Macbeth refered to Demona as the gargoyle "queen" is just because she was their leader back in his day. We don't know how much he fully understood about gargs back in "Enter Macbeth." As leader of her clan at Moray, he associates her with being a queen. If more gargoyles have popped up, why shouldn't she rule them too? And even if she wasn't their ruler, she would still come to rescue them (heh heh, poor Mac. That plan really went south.)

<London wasn't on mainland Europe to begin with> Sorry, I think summer break as offically fried my brain.
Twiggess
"Stop mocking my attempts at cliched villainy!"
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2006 4:43:32 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

And, of course there is Fiona Canmore who is still alive in 1996 at the ripe old age of 107, who battled Demona in 1920.
Greg Bishansky
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 10:00:37 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I don't think London and Caledonia moved from anywhere specific, not since gargoyles first migrated to those general area in ancient times.

Maybe Demona told Macbeth she was the queen of the local gargoyles, making her equal to him as king of the humans; she has ego enough I would not put it past her.

We got the impression from the modern-day Canmores that they hadn't run into Gargoyles...it was never clear one way or another how much contact the previous generations had. Just because Aron Canmore "sough all his life" for Demona and never found her doesn't mean he never ran across other gargoyles.
Lynati
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 9:52:38 pm EDT from 70.248.25.172

Where did the Caledonian and London clans move from?
Also, something that always kinda bugged me: How come, when MacBeth first encountered the Manhatten clan, did he refer to Demona as their queen. He's been around a long time, why would he think that any gargoyles automatically follow Demona?
Dezi
But why is all the rum gone?
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 9:10:55 pm EDT from 68.58.30.120

HARVESTER - Of course, it obviously didn't help matters much that human literature and legend (and, more recently, pop culture) generally portrays gargoyles (and things that have gargoyle-ish features such as batlike wings, claws, fangs, and strictly nocturnal activity) as evil. It was only too easy for the Hunters to view gargoyles as evil, not only on account of Demona, but also on account of humanity's depiction of gargoyles in its storytelling.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 9:01:41 pm EDT from 4.245.23.62

Todd: I've always found it a bit tragic that the Hunters clearly encountered Demona enough through the centuries that they gave her a nickname, and probably thought she was some important figurehead among the gargoyle race. Alas, little did they know that Demona was more of a black sheep than anything else. Lesson is, if you're going to have a vendetta, at least TRY to do your research.
Harvester of Eyes
"Meanwhile, back at the Hall of Justice, Aquaman is busy making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because he can't do shit!" -Frank Caliendo
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 8:40:32 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

I always got the impression from "Hunter's Moon" that the only gargoyle that the Hunters ever encountered (until they came to New York in 1996) was Demona, and that they believed that she was the only gargoyle left (cf. things like the Renaissance Hunter calling her "the last gargoyle" and the remark when the Canmores first encountered Goliath, Angela, and Hudson, "I thought only the Demon survived"). Presumably, the Hunters had crossed paths with Demona enough times over the centuries (such as the clash with the Renaissance Hunter in Florence) to keep the vendetta alive, while believing that all of the other gargoyles had been killed back in 1057 (at least, for as long as they remembered that their hunt for Demona had anything to do with the events in Macbeth's reign).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 7:07:52 pm EDT from 4.245.23.62

And neither Caledonia or London were on mainland Europe to begin with. I think clans could have survived a lot longer than that; there are still stretches of land far less occupied than London throughout Europe. I doubt a "full clan" could survive in one location without human aid, though.

...and in TGS, there was a clan in the mountains of southern Germany that survived until 1870, when they were wiped out by Hunters. It was referenced in Hungry Shadows. Obviously the Canmores have had to had enough Gargoyles around to kill over the centuries to keep the younger generations believing in the vendetta rather than deciding their forefathers were all crazy. Dedicated as they are, I kinda doubt they'd be at it if not one family member had seen a living gargoyle in 300 years.
Lynati
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 5:26:19 pm EDT from 70.248.25.172

I think dph of rules means gargoyle clans that are not hiding. We know that the Paris clan was destroyed in 1794 and that the Caledonian and London clans were hiding. I would think for the most part that all of the Gargoyle clans in the rest of Europe were destroyed.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 5:09:48 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

You know what? Forget that signature. It looks way too preppy on paper. See new signature. Sorry for double post, but that was really bugging me.

Oh yeah, and happy birthday to Mr. Jensen (no one ever tells me anything...)
Twiggess
"Stop mocking my attempts at cliched villainy!"
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 4:18:12 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

dph: I'm confused by your question. Obviously there have always been garg clans in Europe, otherwise how would we wind up with Leo and Una? Are you asking when the clans started to go into hiding, or when the humans <i>thought</i> they had finally rid themselves of gargoyles, or what?
Twiggess
"Ladies do not start fights (but they can finish them!)"
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 3:55:54 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

Speaking of gargoyles clans, I have a question to make you think: At what point would you say there would be no gargoyle clans left on mainland Europe? I would say by the end of the Napleonic wars there would be no gargoyle clans left in Europe.
dph of rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 3:15:53 pm EDT from 71.30.133.51

Lynati
Thanks for the answer consering the gargoyle clans. I never really did like the concept of the Loch Ness clan.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 10:02:54 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

Thanks, Spen!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2006 6:35:34 am EDT from 4.244.213.63

Almost forgot what day it is. Happy birthday, Todd!
Spen
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2006 10:05:27 pm EDT from 216.248.119.208

LF2M for BR, pst for invite.

(ie, Gunjack and lain, I have something for you to beta read that is not Hungry Shadows related, please come online when you feel up to it so that I can spazz over it in real time with at least one of you.)

*Squees*
Lynati
world of warcraft has warped my speech. oh, you noticed, did you?
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2006 6:19:42 pm EDT from 70.248.25.172

Jumping back to Umbriel - one thing that occurred to me just now is that his role is, in some ways, almost a darker counterpart to that of Vinnie in "The Journey". He winds up protecting Goliath and Elisa against the leader of his organization who's out to kill them - but unlike Vinnie, he actually gets killed in the process rather than living to go off to Japan. (In fact, I'd unwittingly included a Vinnie-parallel in "Reprisals" when I wrote the outline for it and had Umbriel express his misgivings about Madoc's intent to put to death all his gargoyle prisoners, to which Madoc retorts, "May I remind you that we are fighting a war? There is no room for sentimentality in wartime!" Patrick Toman then pointed out to me how that echoed Castaway's similar metaphors about war in "The Journey" when Vinnie was confronting him on the issue.)

I hope that we made Umbriel a convincing character. While there was some talk about including one "decent guy" among the Unseelie Court to keep it from seeming too "pure evil", I felt that the logical difficulty with that was the question of "what's this person doing with the Unseelie Court if he isn't really that bad?" Its goal (and Madoc was certainly making no secret of this to his followers) was to conquer and enslave the entire planet; under Madoc's regime, gargoyles would have been wiped out and humanity reduced to serf-status. Such an objective would only appeal to the corrupt. We found the solution in the form of Madoc being the only family that Umbriel had ever known, so that, while he's growing increasingly uneasy about his uncle's designs, he's held back for a long while by the fact that he's got nowhere else to go. (A slight parallel, maybe, to Richard Harrison being uneasy about the Quarrymen but staying in it for a long time because George was his brother.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2006 7:15:43 pm EDT from 4.244.209.133

True about killing off Hudson, but I still think it would have been cool to kill off Owen/Puck and have Umbriel replace him as Alexander's magical tutor.

But is Greg's Xanadu clan and TGS Chinese clan ment to be the same clan. The reason I ask this is because the Xanadu clan is supposed to bread garbeasts and I think jus that fact could make a couple of interesting stories where clans can aquire beasts for their respective clan. Just a thought.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2006 7:11:12 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

Adam: there are no plans to add clans in any of those areas.
I want to say that the reason the other clans were chosen was that, at the time, TGS had to decide what clans were where for the end of the second TGS season, and Greg Weisman had not released his version. Or by the time he had released them, TGS had already developed a fair amount on their own versions and didn't want to chunk it all. TGS is never going to be identical to The Master Plan, and has rarely made drastic alterations to its plans to include later-announced Master Plan material. A lot of it just doesn't fit with what has been established for this universe.

And another note on the previous killings 'o characters discussion- someone mentioned "well, you could kill (Hudson) and it wouldn't really change things" ...if it isn't going to have any impact, why bother killing a cast character?
Lynati
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2006 6:48:00 pm EDT from 70.248.25.172

I have a question for TGS people. Do you plan to add the Pukhan clan and Loch Ness clan for Greg's master plan? Why did you decide to put clans in Scotland, Antartica and Persia (not that I am complainging, I am just curious)?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2006 5:11:30 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

Taleweaver: I've seen that at my store; that partcular duology (whether it not it's going to be series I don't know yet) seems to be rather popular.

Harvester: *laughs* I like it!
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2006 4:55:58 pm EDT from 69.230.84.160

I appear to have unleashed hell. Magnificent. I actually thought of something else, and this is inspired by an old Calvin and Hobbes cartoon. Demona opens up a booth that's advertised as selling Happiness. The way it works is she takes the human's money, and then reduces them to a twitching corpse with her laser cannon. The thing is, the sign is not 100 percent clear on just whose happiness it refers to, now is it? ( ;

*lights a cigar and steps back into the shadows, humming the first movement of Holst's "The Planets."*
Harvester of Eyes
"Meanwhile, back at the Hall of Justice, Aquaman is busy making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because he can't do shit!" -Frank Caliendo
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2006 6:06:24 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

Adam) tenant (sorry spelling): But it's X-mas, miss! Please, just give me till New Years??

Demona: NO! I celebrate the Winter Solitice, anyway.

tenant: Whatever, this house is too creepy for my taste it looks like Dracula's daughter lives here. I'll go stay at mother's. Ciao.

Demona: Oi.

***Note the "Mirror" and "Long Way till Morning" references
Twiggess
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2006 4:25:42 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

Happy birthday Greg B.!
Spen
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2006 4:25:10 pm EDT from 216.248.119.208

Or Demona as a landlord.

Demona: Pay the rent or I'll nock you up side the head with my mace.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2006 4:18:51 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Adam: LOL. Your good. I wonder how her immortality would factor into that. You know, like:

Demona: Human, if you do not take your medication RIGHT NOW you won't HAVE to worry about that operation on Thursday

Old person: You mind your manners, missy. Hasn't anyone ever told you to respect your elders?

Demona: I AM AT LEAST 900 YEARS YOUR SENIOR!!! DON'T GET FRESH WITH ME JUST POP THE FRIGGIN PILL!!!!
Twiggess
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2006 1:56:26 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

How about Demona opening a nursing or old-folks home?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2006 1:45:53 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

I think Border's havs a "Hunter's Moon" too, but I'm not sure. And as for the Demona thing, I've got the ultimate: OPENING A DAYCARE CENTER.
Twiggess
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2006 1:06:09 pm EDT from 65.97.14.233

Howdy!

Hang on to your hats and glasses folks. Stopped by Borders and saw this title. "Time Dancers" by Steven Cash. Here's a link to the Amazon entry.
Taleweaver
Honor those the dragons heed in thought and favor word and deed
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 11:21:24 pm EDT from 4.131.140.164

Even worse would be Demona opening a restaurant - though she'd have to be handling the secret ingredients in her food carefully, so that her customers don't drop dead until a while after leaving and get everybody suspicious enough of the place that people stop going there (not to mention the Health Inspector investigating).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 6:55:12 pm EDT from 4.245.20.84

Hah-hah-hah, a shotgun wedding!

Harvester: That's not the only hospital I see Demona opening . . .
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 6:19:52 pm EDT from 69.230.77.61

On second thought, I withdraw my smartass remark. I CAN picture Demona opening a hospital, but it would offer only one type of treatment: euthanasia.

Patient: "But I only have a sprained wrist!"
Demona: "Who's wearing the stethoscope, human? How shut up and get on the table. This will only be excruciatingly painful."
Harvester of Eyes
"Meanwhile, back at the Hall of Justice, Aquaman is busy making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because he can't do shit!" -Frank Caliendo
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 5:30:29 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

Greg B: Them? Engage in pre-marital relations? You're kidding! The day Demona opens a children's hospital... ( ;
Harvester of Eyes
"Meanwhile, back at the Hall of Justice, Aquaman is busy making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because he can't do shit!" -Frank Caliendo
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 5:21:10 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

Question. I TGS Chinese clan ment to be the same clan as Greg's Xanadu clan?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 2:59:31 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

Okay, do we know exactly when "Vows" took place?

All I know is, that on Greg's timeline, Alex was conceived before the wedding. And, I will laugh my ass off at anyone who thinks David and Fox would never engage in premarital sex.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 1:00:56 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Lynati - you're right. I don't know where in heck I got the idea she was 1/2 human, but I could have swore I read it in a tgs story, but looking through Sun and Surpent, I realize I was dead wrong.
dph of rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 12:04:37 pm EDT from 162.40.59.147

I'm surprised that Elisa's brush with death hasn't been mentioned. Remember she would have died if it weren't for an unlikely savior. I think that having Demona of all people saving Elisa's life was just as powerfull a statement as killing off characters.
Mecord
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 11:54:51 am EDT from 63.230.5.218

"Eye of the Beholder" took place on Holloween 1995, that is when Goliat took the eye of odin. So it is possible, but it you count back 9 months from July 9th, you get sometime in early November consivement.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 10:55:17 am EDT from 67.190.200.144

Frankly, that doesn't come as much of a surprise to me. Neither Fox nor David strike me as being very religious. They did have a secular wedding, after all.

So if Alex was born on July 9, does that mean that his mother was carrying him when she was going through that business with the Eye of Odin?
Harvester of Eyes
"Meanwhile, back at the Hall of Justice, Aquaman is busy making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because he can't do shit!" -Frank Caliendo
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 6:55:44 am EDT from 69.174.3.196

*Pokes Gunjack*


DPH: <She's 1/2 dragon and 1/2 human . Her father was king of the dragons. We've never read references to her mother.> If we've never read references to her mother, how do we know she's half *human*?
Lynati
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 3:36:19 am EDT from 70.248.25.172

Adam> I think it's safe to say that a vast, vast, vast majority of brides out there shouldn't be wearing white to the wedding.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2006 12:46:16 am EDT from 65.33.128.134

Ok. I was just looking at the numbers. Then maybe Fox should not have been wearing white at the wedding.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 10:42:07 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

ADAM> According to Greg Weisman, Alex was conceived before the wedding. He worked this out in his timeline.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 8:20:49 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

SPIKE - Ah, thanks, I'd forgotten about that. (It's been too long - and I've changed computers a couple of times since then, which means that I no longer have any records from the early days of TGS.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 7:04:41 pm EDT from 4.245.19.145

I have a quick question for the whole group. How come the garbeasts of Yorkshire are off with the timing of the normal gargoyle reproductive cicle?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 5:57:18 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

How do we know that Alexander was consived before marriage. He was born on July 9th, 1996. Xanatos and Fox got married in November of 1995. That is almost 9 months. He probably was a honeymoon baby.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 3:17:55 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

spen - <Since when was Isfet illigitimate?> She's 1/2 dragon and 1/2 human . Her father was king of the dragons. We've never read references to her mother. What part of that description makes it probable that she wasn't born out of wedlock? I'm not implying that all children born of parents from two different species are out of wedlock, but to me Isfet's parentage suggests that.
dph of rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 12:27:21 pm EDT from 162.40.59.147

Umbriel died really late in the SUW. According to TGS timeline, "Hazards" took place in November/December of 1998, and the last battle took place in April 1999. And only 4 stories took place in between those events. And 2 of those stories had to do with the Manhattan clan, the other 2 were in London. Even though I think that the death of Umbriel was really cool, I would liked to have seen him as an ally of our heros. He easily could have replaced Owen/Puck as Alexanders teacher in the magical arts.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 11:44:01 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

This is a heads-up to anyone expecting an email or forum response from me. I underwent nasal surgery (septoplasty) yesterday. All went well, so far, but I will need time to recover. A combination of drowsiness from the pain meds, limited diet and non-existent sleep have rendered me incoherent most of the time, aside from short bursts of coherency - like right now. ;) I don't know how long my recovery will take, but I'm estimating I will need at least 2 to 4 weeks before I feel up to doing anything. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may cause. As soon as I feel better I will resume the usual updates and emails. In my absence, Fire Storm will archive the CR weeks for me.

Thank you for your patience and understanding. :)
Lady Mystic
Head Admin of TGS CR Information
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 11:38:11 am EDT from 67.38.23.38

DPH> I stand corrected. I'm a bit humbled that I forgot Umbriel. I remember loving the idea because the murder really put Madoc in the 'evil that must be stopped' category. In my mind up to that point, Madoc was an evil you could live with like Cobra or Skeletor. That he would so casually kill some one who liked him kicked up his evil quotient.

Spike> I've gotten that sense reading the later eps of Tengu. Like when you meet a high school buddy at the Home Depot.
Taleweaver
Honor those the dragons heed in thought and favor word and deed
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 9:47:44 am EDT from 207.69.139.10

Todd>> Actually, my leaving had less to do with TGS politics than it did with the fact that, at that time, I had been diagnosed with carpel tunnel syndrome. I had to cut down on my computer time or risk permanent damage to my hands. Since TGS had me writing, drawing, and in some cases RE-writing, that was the thing that had to go. I'm happy to say that after therapy (cold laser rocks!) and time, my CTS rarely bothers me anymore.
Spike
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2006 8:24:34 am EDT from 70.251.107.69

DPH : Eh? Since when was Isfet illigitimate?

And by my math, 29 episodes into the season certainly would make Umbrial's death a late SUW occurance.
Spen
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 10:46:33 pm EDT from 216.248.119.208

Todd - That's interesting. Then how in heck did Umbriel get through? Or Isfet? We all know that Alexander Xanatos was conceived prior to the wedding. I, myself, don't mind out-of-wedlock pregnancies as long as they don't start becoming a dime a dozen. I'm more concerned about large battles where nobody gets seriously injured.

Taleweaver - <It would have been nice to see a death early in the SUW arc, but not necessary> And Umbriel's death wasn't early in the suw arc?

Mecord - <There has to be a good reason to kill off a character in a story, it doesn't always have to be apparent, but just randomly killing off characters makes for bad storytelling. The problem with killing off any cannonical characters is you run the risk of alienating the readers. We don't have that reservation with non-cannonical characters.> That's what I thought the current s&p read.

Adam - <1. Why didn't the Guatemalan clans eggs hatch in 1998 like the rest of the gargoyle clan eggs?> Actually, we worked out that answer a few years ago. :-) <Like when will Goliath step down as leader of the clan> You realize how many assumptions that you place in that one statement?

As far the suw is concerned, Umbriel died, the Guatamelan clan got off heavy (20% of the existing population came within inches of death).
dph of rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 10:30:07 pm EDT from 162.40.59.147

It's a bummer that she is no longer with you. I think she is the best artist you had on staff.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 10:15:10 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

As I recall, she resigned during Season Two. (Shortly after a heated debate over her proposal of "When the Bough Breaks" - I never did understand why her idea of George Harrison having an out-of-wedlock child was so controversial and my idea of Madoc having an out-of-wedlock child in the form of Merlin wasn't.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 9:31:39 pm EDT from 4.244.18.170

At what point was Christi no longer on staff? I remember seeing a few illustrations of hers in Season 3 of Pendragon (including that one at the end of "Expatriate" that I especially enjoyed).
Harvester of Eyes
"Meanwhile, back at the Hall of Justice, Aquaman is busy making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because he can't do shit!" -Frank Caliendo
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 9:22:17 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Christi *did* guest-write any future TGS stories involving the gargoyle clans in Great Britain; she guest-wrote "On Holiday" in Season Three of "Pendragon" (by which time she'd been gone from TGS for a while).

Of course, we gave her a rough time on that one by adding to her original outline an element involving Mary Sefton's problems over being a werewolf to what was originally more about the young London gargoyles going on holiday to the Caledonian Forest. (In fact, "On Holiday" was originally a one-parter in the outline, but wound up becoming a two-parter because of all the additional material.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 7:14:16 pm EDT from 4.244.18.131

I believe that IF there is a new season of The Gargoyles Saga and IF there will be stories ( possibly featuring the Caledonian clan or the London clan) that the staff feels that my involvement might be helpful in, I might be favorable to writing them.

However, this is one heckuva big IF and frankly, it's not up to me -- it's up to the current staff because they're the ones coming up for the next TGS storylines. I'm no longer on staff but I am writing my own independent stories based on TGS. Honestly, I'm rather enjoying them -- it's like getting reacquainted with childhood friends that are now all grown up.
Spike
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 6:59:18 pm EDT from 208.190.39.164

So Spike, are you righting for the next season of Gargoyles? I think you are a great writer and artist.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 5:48:40 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Yeah, I got that when I clicked on the spike name. Stupid me.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 1:37:46 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

ADAM> Two things.

1. Todd created TGS's Unseelie Court, so of course he is not "missing the point" of their attacks. He came up with the concept for TGS.

2. Spike is Christ Smith Hayden.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 1:19:52 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Spike. Thanks for your answer. I emailed Christi Smith Hayden some months ago (right after Gargoyles seaon 2, volume one came out on DVD). I just told her that I really liked the Caledonian clan and if she had intended to write more about them in the future or had any intentions of drawing the rest of the clan.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 12:28:21 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Adam>> In regards to your questions regarding the Caledonian Clan -- honestly, I never did that much math with them. Kirstie, Tori, and Brianna are all from the same rookery, most likely 1958. Parentage-wise, they break down like this: Kirstie (Quade/Rachael), Tori (Curran/unnamed garg), Brianna (Kylie/unnamed garg). Anything beyond that had nothing to do with the storyline.

Coincidentally, who did you email about the Caledonian Clan? I haven't received any inquiries about them in years.

In TGS-related news, I had Sata reminsce about events in "Dishonor" and "The Promise" in the latest chapter of "Koiji." Hopefully, it'll send a few readers back here to re-read TimeDancer.
Spike
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2006 10:41:36 am EDT from 70.251.119.56

I will give the Star Wars prequels one thing. They are GREAT drinking movies. They're also lots of fun to watch Mystery Science Theater-style with friends. I guess I'm a little like Mecord. I adore directors like Hitchcock, Scorsese, and Kurasawa, but at the same time, there's also space on my rack for movies like "Top Secret!"

And personally, I like it when action and drama manage to mesh together well. Right now, I can't think of any American examples, though, only the Cowboy Bebop episode "Ballad of Fallen Angels." That entire church scene ruled.
Harvester of Eyes
"Meanwhile, back at the Hall of Justice, Aquaman is busy making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because he can't do shit!" -Frank Caliendo
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 9:06:46 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

Greg: *laughs* I'll be honest, I've only read through Romeo & Juliet and Julius Caesar. For the record, though, I _did_ like Julius Caesar, but the former --- nuh-uh. ;)

Plus, I think, if I had chosen Macbeth instead of R&J, I shouldn't even _be_ here, since Skaespeare's works play such a part in the Gargoyles mythos. ;) What kind of a fan would I be, then? . . . A really stupid one. :-P
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 8:41:25 pm EDT from 69.230.63.227

I meant that there were a few people out there (though I don't think that they post here any more) who thought that we were letting off the world too lightly with a Ragnarok/Armageddon-level conflict.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 7:54:12 pm EDT from 4.245.22.73

Todd, I think that your missing the point of the Unseelie courts attacts. They attacked the Gargoyle clans because of the profficy that only a union of gargoyles and humans would defeat him. That is why he focassed his attacks were he did. 99.999% of the human population was of know threat to him.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 7:51:39 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

I'm a little surprised that nobody's brought up yet (re the "too-light casualties" issue for the SUW) that we didn't have the world in general ravaged by the Unseelie Court to the point where major cities were in ruin and millions of humans around the planet dead. Instead, we wound up confining the fighting to just the various clans' "home bases" and left the rest of the planet almost untouched (except for Madoc's temporary Ice Age).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 7:21:44 pm EDT from 4.245.22.73

No problem. We all like gargoyles and we likes what we see and read. I think I speak for all of us when I say I can't wait for Gargoyles season 4.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 5:54:35 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

You know what, Guardian, you're right. I have been jerkier than I should have been. So, Adam, sorry if my attitude crossed the line.

I still disagree with most of your points though ;)

GUARDIAN> Since you picked Romeo and Juliet, I'll let you live. Butgod help youif you picked Clancy over Othello, Richard III, Macbeth or Titus. I'd have had to kill ya ;)
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 5:51:43 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Sorry about that. I kinda have a head for stats. I have a listing of all the gargoyles in TGS who appear in Gargoyles and Pendragon. I have them listed by clan, approximate hatch date, and role in the clan.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 5:15:25 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Greg: Hey, Tom Clancy's works are good. I'd prefer Rainbow Six over Romeo & Juliet any day. :-P

And what's wrong with citing Star Wars? You can pick out just as many "amazing and awesome geek-out scenes" in that universe as you can with any other, if you think about it long enough.

Mecord has a point: cut Adam some slack, let's not go attacking him, he's not attacking us, he's asking questions. This is a potential con-goer, after all. :-P

I don't remember ever seeing the Exo-Squad show, I wonder if it's on DVD? But I remember the toys; the toys were _awesome_.

Adam: The question you posed, while a bit of a ways down, is still on the page; I don't think it's necessary to repost it until the room is cleared. :)

And, on a lighter note, DFD should sound like a computer game acronym'ed title, but I can't think of anything "amazing" enough . . . :-P
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 4:59:19 pm EDT from 69.230.63.227

I just realized that I didn't have my questions about the Caledonian clan answered. I tried once to email the creator of them but never got a responce back. So here they are again.
It is said that Brianna, Kirstie, and Tori are all from the same rookery. I surmise that they all hatched in 1958 (making them the same age as the Trio and Caspian's rookery). I also assume that Quade, Curran and Rachel are of the same rookery and were hatched in 1898. My question is what years where Kylie and Jamie hatched? I speculate that Kylie hatched in either 1858 or 1838, meaning she could be the biological mother to Jamie, Brianna, and one of the 1898 rookery. And I think that Jamie hatched in either 1918 or 1938 (I think 1938 is more likely). Do you nice people have an answer for me?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 3:31:34 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

I have no idea what exo-squad is.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 3:03:25 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

You're not getting it. I'm not talking about a body count. No one is talking about a body count. Just drama in writing.

And killing off characters is a big deal. It's why the death of the Magus worked so well in "Avalon Part 3".

But, they came out of the SUW too well unscathed (just a broken arm for Sata), and with two new gargoyles in the process.

And please, could you site other examples of fiction that aren't "Star Wars"?

Here, I can. Take "Exo-Squad" for example. It didn't often kill characters, but when it did, boy was it effective and dramatic. Like the death of Captain Marcus in season one. He was a major character since the beginning, and to this day him taking the Resolute alone to destroy the Neosapien flagship is one of the most dramatic scenes in American animation. The death of Alec Deleon was well done also... though when they later cloned him, I thought that was cheap. But, then, I'm not a fan of cheap story telling.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 1:48:11 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Death List> Oh, yeah, I remember the discussions getting equally heated during the planning and writing stages of the SUW.

For my money, I could see Hudson dying in the war. Hudson is a warrior of the old school. Meeting his end defending his castle is how I imagine he always figured he'd meet his end. As other have mentioned, it has been done with many fake outs, but it wouldn't rob the death of any impact in TGS.

Although Brooklyn is my favorite of the trio, I would have killed him off as well. Storywise, his death would have the most impact. And it gets around the absence issue by Brooklyn existing in Timedancer.

Of the larger Manhattan cast, I would have Claw or Sharon meet a valrous end defending the Labryinth from Sehkmet's werecheetahs. I would have killed off the Cold duo. (Death before early retirement on Avalon!)

It would have been nice to see a death early in the SUW arc, but not necessary. The writers showed Madoc was capable of unparalleled cruelty with the way he manipulated and mutilated folks from Lexington on down. I don't think we needed a 48 point banner alerting the audience that the bad guy is evil.

The problem with a death list is there is bound to someone on it that someone else loves and feels would be a travesty to kill off. Someone might suggest Goliath and I might jump in to defend the big guy. And because what we deal with contains an emotion component rational arguments aren't always effective. I think the Head of each particular series should call who lives or dies. They are the only one with the authority make the decision stick.
Taleweaver
Honor those the dragons heed in thought and favor word and deed
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 1:44:16 pm EDT from 207.69.139.154

I think any of the canon charactes would have been appropriate to kill off at the begining of the SUW. Lexington would have made a good choice because of his friendship with Maddox.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 11:31:07 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

Adam> Again, I ask, why Hudson?

Why not Brooklyn? Or Sata? Or Xanatos? Or Fox?
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 11:05:34 am EDT from 66.192.104.10

I think killing off Hudson at the start of the SUW would have been more entertianing than killing him off at the end. It always seems that our heroes are near death but we know somehow they will servive. That is why I like the New Jedi Order so much. They killed of Chewie right at the begining to let everyone know that this was a dangerous new threat and everything that the readers had taken for granted would now longer apply. TGS people could have done the same thing with Hudson or any of the other canon characters.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 10:30:14 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

I don't think Jon could have been reasoned with either, but that doesn't mean that the relationship between him and his brother would have been any less compelling.

Goliath and Demona's relationship was always very compelling, even before "Vows" when Goliath was still hoping for reconciliation. Right now, Demona cannot be reasoned with. We know Angela is going to fail, but that doesn't mean it will be any less compelling.

I'm sure Greg Weisman will write it well, because, as many good writers as TGS has had, Greg is better at it than any one of us.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 8:58:47 am EDT from 66.192.104.10

I'm one person who believes that Castaway's beyond hope (short of a miracle) of being cured of his hatred for gargoyles. The factor that most makes me suspect that is that, even when he'd been wavering towards a "pro-gargoyle" attitude, he wound up doing almost nothing to help them. Whenever he voiced his uneasiness with the notion of the Hunt, one glower from Jason and he quickly backed down. During the battle at the dam, while Elisa was actively trying to reason with Goliath and Jason, urging them to stop the senseless battle, Jon was simply watching glumly, not doing or saying anything; when Elisa asked him to help stop the fighting, he said, "I wish that I could", without a hint that he'd even made an effort at it to see whether he could or not. And - here's the biggie (in my opinion) - even while Jon still knew the truth about the gargoyles, before he'd entered his state of self-delusion, he went ahead and publicly exposed them, framing them for the destruction of the clock tower, without even a word of protest to Jason and Robyn. The man's got no backbone (even all of that masterminding the Quarrymen and leading them against the gargoyles is all just an act of cowardice, to keep himself from confronting the fact that it's thanks to him that Jason will never walk again).

Though I do have one weird little thought: is it possible that much of the fury that Castaway directed towards Elisa and Vinnie in "The Journey", for protecting Goliath from him, was fueled by some deep-down-inside suppressed guilt over the fact that, back in the days when he was still leaning towards a more receptive look at the gargoyles, he hadn't had the strength of character to stick with it, while Elisa and Vinnie did?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 7:51:23 am EDT from 4.244.208.104

Dude, chill out. I understand what you guys are saying about a non fighting confrontation between Jason and Jon. But I don't think you get what I am saying. I don't think that Jon could have been reasoned with, not even by Jason. Jon would have accused Jason of being in league with the Demon or being corrupted by the Demon. He might have even considered Jason an enemy.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 7:29:14 am EDT from 67.190.200.144

Character death>> I have to admit that Hudson jumps to the top of the list of characters who could be safely killed off, but he's also the first crossed off that list.

Reason's he could be killed:

To draw another unwarrented Star Wars parallel, it would be like killing off Obi-wan. Hudson is the mentor, the father, and the most likely to die as a martyr in battle. His death would be a catalyst for major change with all the other characters.

Reason number two. He is old. From a storytelling standpoint it is harder (but not impossible) to create new interesting stories about him. Most of the stories about Hudson revolve around his history. In a sense, he is the most expendable. Also, we tend to think of cannonical characters as immortal, even when we kill them off in a fan-fic. And when we do kill them off, there is usually some heroic martyeristic (no that's not really a word) side to the character's death. It would actually be a new twist to see Hudson recieve a dissabling injury and then waste away slowly over time.

Reasons why I would not kill off Hudson:

The first option was done twice durring the serries, it just happened that both times his death was faked, once by Xanatos and once by Puck.

As for the second option, unless there is a very good reason that Hudson needs to die, it would be uninteresting and pointless.

There has to be a good reason to kill off a character in a story, it doesn't always have to be apparent, but just randomly killing off characters makes for bad storytelling. The problem with killing off any cannonical characters is you run the risk of alienating the readers. We don't have that reservation with non-cannonical characters.

One cannonical character that I think could be killed off in TGS is Lexington. Mainly, this is because after an upgrade or two the cybernetic implants offer a way to bring him back. We already know from Timedancer that something like that eventually happens, it's just a matter of if it will happen in the next couple of years while we are still writing the stories.

I was going to say more, but I have to go. I will say one thing, cut Adam some slack, just because he liked the Star Wars prequals is no reason to diss him. Despite the problems, I liked the prequals just fine. There's no reason I can't like Shakespeare and Mission Impossible at the same time (though I have to admit, I don't generally like Tom Cruise. I'm just trying to make a point).
Mecord
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2006 12:38:29 am EDT from 63.230.5.218

HoE> Thank you for saying it before I did.

Adam> You are just coming off as wanting stories that are dumbed down. Enjoying the Star Wars prequels and some of your other comments have shown that.

Give me a moving story any day over mindless spectacle. Give me "The Godfather" any day over "Mission Impossible".

Give me Shakespeare over Tom Clancy any day.

"Gargoyles" didn't dumb things down. Character development and story always came before action and spectacle. Some of its detractors call it "pretentious", I call it "intellectual".
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 11:34:16 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Adam: I'm starting to think you're one of those people responsible for making Hollywood what it is today. If anything, if and when Jason and Jon meet again in the comic, I'm hoping that there's no physical altercation of any sort. The two spar verbally, they part ways, both are left shaken by the exchange. Jon's character becomes more complex, because he discovers that his brother is now defending the same beings that he feels are responsible for putting him in a wheelchair.

Well, maybe not exactly like that, but something close to it. In the end, that's what's engaging. That's what makes Gargoyles so endearing. The human aspect of it. That's far more interesting than mindless gunplay and explosions.
Harvester of Eyes
"The president has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president?"
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 10:36:38 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

About the only thing Jason could have done was to distract Jon long enough for someone to take him out or tackle him or something. I just feal that Jon would not have listen to Jason, just like at the end of Hunter's Moon.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 10:29:33 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

So, basically you want the same plot re-hashed over again. We already saw that scene, it was in Hunter's Moon.

Jon is crazy, but surely he and Jason can have confrontations without one shooting the other. There are verbal confrontations. Emotional confrontations. Not every conflict needs to involve gunfire, sword play and explosions.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 10:16:48 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I just think a physical confrontation like the one we saw at the end of Hunter's Moon were Jon accidentaly shot Jason type of confrontation would have worked. But I don't see Jason as being able to reason with Jon. I think in his mind, as was shown in TGS, he just lost it. He was willing to do anything and everything to achive his desires. He was very much into the end justify the means. And for the most part, I enjoyed the Star Wars prequels. The next Star Wars book comes out in two weeks. And it features Boba Fett and the Mandalorian. And Jacen will take a few more steps down the path that will lead him to his destiny. A destiny that his grandfather failed to live up to and his uncle failed refused to emprace.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 9:15:07 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

<As long as he isn't written like a rabid, foaming at the mouth, psychopathic cartoon character.>

Which accurately describes his portrayal in the Goliath Chronicles. (Seriously, I still think that his decision to attack the train in "Angels in the Night" was the height of stupidity. For one thing, Angela and Bronx were already headed for prison and the only possible reason that he could have to go after them was the standard out-of-control cartoon villain angle of "I want to have the pleasure of killing them myself!" There's no indication - as far as I can remember - that he knew that the other gargoyles had survived his trap and would be showing up to rescue Angela and Bronx. In fact, if he and his followers had stayed home and done nothing, it would have worked a lot better for them, since Goliath and his clan coming to the rescue of Angela and Bronx would be seen as a simple "prison break-out" and mean a fresh charge added to the gargoyles.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 7:21:02 pm EDT from 4.244.18.125

Well, as was discussed in s8 a couple weeks ago. The Quarrymen wear hoods, so you it's harder to identify them. I'm sure Castaway has lawyers and a PR group more than capable of distancing the organization and it's leader from the "renegade actions of a few individuals". The KKK does it all the time.

Castaway may be crazy, but I think he has enough sense to keep himself out of legal trouble. As long as he isn't written like a rabid, foaming at the mouth, psychopathic cartoon character.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 7:13:48 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

What I meant by the police shutting them down was from the perspective of the Quarrymen's vigilantism activities. If they confined their anti-gargoyle attitudes to legal actions (anti-gargoyle pamphlets and billboards, say), they wouldn't be an issue. But they're actually going out hunting gargoyles in person, smashing other people's gargoyle statues, and things like that, which certainly means that they could be facing charges of destroying other people's property and taking the law into their own hands. (Though I don't know whether their hunting gargoyles would be seen in terms of vigilantism or in terms of hunting wild animals, mind you.) Certainly I think that a Quarryman organization that got up to the things that the Quarrymen did in the Goliath Chronicles (assault and battery on the PIT Crew, firing off heavy artillery in the city streets, opening fire on a passenger train and endangering the humans on board) would be in a lot of trouble with law enforcement in a hurry. The issue isn't their hatred of the gargoyles, but that they express that hatred in violent ways that threaten the lives (or at the least, the property) of the human citizenry.

Indeed, I've harbored a suspicion that the Quarrymen, if they've got much sense about them, would gradually downplay the hammer element and go for more subtle ways of opposing the gargoyles - say, coming out with a newsletter or magazine that claims that all the crimes that the Hunters have been charged with over the centuries (such as blowing up the clock tower and the "trail of violence" that Matt mentioned the Canmore trio having left behind them after their father's death) were invented by the gargoyles and their human supporters (and, yes, I had the Holocaust-denial movement in mind when I wrote that).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 7:08:13 pm EDT from 4.244.18.125

TODD> Well, we do know that Castaway's descendents will continue to lead the organization. And despite other comments you have made, the police can't just shut them down, as the Quarrymen have a Constitutional right to exist.

ADAM> Why do Jason and Jon need to have a physical confrontation for it to be interesting?

And please, don't cite Star Wars to me, I think they are the most over rated movies in the history of film (the original two were good, but I don't think they deserve the fame they have). "Gargoyles" story telling is so much better, I think drawing comparisons between the two is an insult to "Gargoyles"
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 6:52:31 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

In all fairness, the original KKK didn't last very long; the one that's currently around was a revival inspired at least in part by D. W. Griffith's "Birth of a Nation". (Though I might be wrong; I'm not an expert on the Klan.)

Maybe some years in the Gargoyles Universe's future, somebody will make an anti-gargoyle movie that glosses over the lawless behavior of the Quarrymen and inspires a rebirth of the organization. :)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 6:40:17 pm EDT from 4.244.18.125

Adam: I have nothing against Star Wars. I was a fan of the expanded universe myself back in the day. Part of me still is, at least most of the stuff that was written before they changed publishers. But honestly, I don't think too many people here mind that Jason and Jon would be unable to have a confrontation like in Star Wars. Why would we want to see them wail on each other with glowing swords? But seriously, there's all kinds of confrontation. Frankly, I think the kinds that aren't purely physical make for better storytelling.

Just tell me you don't like the prequels, and you should fit in here nicely. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes
"The president has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president?"
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 6:33:49 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

I am 26 years old. The only reason I bring the paralyzed situation up is because you wouldn't be able to have a final confrontation like in Star Wars. And I dought that even both Jason and Robyn could have reason with Jon. He was beond mad. The reason I say that Hudson would have been a good character to kill of is because I read so much Star Wars. They seem to kill off younger characters much more often than older characters and I like to have a little variety in my life. Also, I think dying in battle is more Hudson's style, rather than of old age watching TV.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 5:39:22 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

ADAM> The in jail argument is a good one. But paralyzed? That has nothing to do with leaving him out of a story.

Hudson's too old. Jason's paralyzed... ummm, okay, at this point, I need to ask.

How old are you? Because those sound like the kind of things I'd have said when I was younger and a lot more ignorant.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 4:55:47 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

It would hav been difficult to do with Jason paralyzed and in jail.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 4:40:18 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

Yes, I think removing the Quarrymen was a huge mistake. Greg Weisman planned for them to still be around in 2198. I mean, look how long the KKK has been around.

Also, and this is a little pet peeve. The Harrison brothers were good characters, but if sibling drama was going to be what brought down the Quarrymen, it should have been between the Canmore brothers... not the Harrisons. Jason and Jon.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 4:26:44 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Harvester of eyes, I agree with you, but is seems that in TGS they wanted the Unseelie court to the the major villians (at it appears that Thailog and his gang with be the future villians). Besides, puny humans with hammers are not match for a gargoyle. They needed an enemy that had some more muscle.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 4:25:21 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

I just thought of something else, and I'm surprised no one else has brought this up (at least this week, anyway). One of the things I had problems with (upon re-reading the first season of TGS), and I know others have had problems with it too, was that in the TGS Timeline, the Quarrymen only seemed to be in existence for a few months. At least I think they were. The group was formed at some point after October 26, 1996, and Castaway was out of commission before Christmas that same year. Despite changing attitudes especially in the last half-century, groups such as the Aryan nation and the KKK have endured. And gargoyles are a race that appear extremely different on the surface. So I'm afraid I don't see the Quarrymen dying off so quickly. As others in the fandom have said, and I know I'm paraphrasing, you can't underestimate the ignorance of the masses.
Harvester of Eyes
"The president has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president?"
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 3:44:00 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

I would assume that Goliath would step down sometime before 2044 (he would be the same age that Hudson was when he stepped down in 984.) By then Arianna would be in her mid thirties and the others in either thier mid 60's or mid 40's.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 3:22:22 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

I also have a couple of questions about the Caledonian clan. It is said that Brianna, Kirstie, and Tori are all from the same rookery. I surmise that they all hatched in 1958 (making them the same age as the Trio and Caspian's rookery). I also assume that Quade, Curran and Rachel are of the same rookery and were hatched in 1898. My question is what years where Kylie and Jamie hatched? I speculate that Kylie hatched in either 1858 or 1838, meaning she could be the biological mother to Jamie, Brianna, and one of the 1898 rookery. And I think that Jamie hatched in either 1918 or 1938 (I think 1938 is more likely). Do you nice people have an answer for me?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 2:54:56 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

Todd: That's... interesting, to say the least.

Adam: I think Hudson has plenty to offer. If you own the DVDs, I suggest rewatching "Long Way to Morning" or "The Price" again.
Harvester of Eyes
"The president has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president?"
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 2:28:55 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

Adam:

1) You'll find out. We actually do have an in-story reason for that.

2) Yes, there is *a* version planned out of many of the major events such as clan leadership changes between now and 2158. But we may not use it. Or, TGS may wind up using *some* of it, and drastically changing other parts. The series kind of develops as it is written, with the "future plans" updated as often as a major change during the writing process calls for it.

I agree about Ariana, she has many fine qualities that could develop into a really good second in command, or clan leader, when she grows up.

But nothing is written in stone.


I like this, having TGS discussions in the TGS CR. It should continue.
Lynati
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 2:21:40 pm EDT from 70.249.45.163

I have a couple of questions about the series.

1. Why didn't the Guatemalan clans eggs hatch in 1998 like the rest of the gargoyle clan eggs?

2. Do you guys have stuff in the future planned out? Like when will Goliath step down as leader of the clan, or will Brooklyn step down as second first because he is now older than Goliath, and who will take over as the new second of the clan?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 11:39:23 am EDT from 67.190.200.144

I just said Hudson because he would be an obvious choise. I think the other members of the Manhattan clan have more to offer. Although killing off Brooklyn or Sata would have been a great twist, and killing off Graeme would have tragic. I think Arianna would make a fine leader for the clan when she matures.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2006 1:59:29 am EDT from 67.190.200.144

ADAM> So, you like cheap story telling? Gotcha.

I agree with Lynati, killing off Hudson "because he is old" is the weakest reason to make that decision. And predictable also.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2006 7:14:08 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

I've never mentioned this to anybody before, but I did have a bizarre creativity demon during the planning of the SUW that it would turn out that Madoc had actually created the gargoyle race back during the First Unseelie War, in such a way that when he would get killed by Demona during the Second Unseelie War, the gargoyles would all turn to stone and shatter (except maybe for Demona, because of her magical link to Macbeth), thus providing a casualty for the war in terms of the entire gargoyle race. However, I never suggested it to the staff since: a) once all the gargoyles were dead, we'd either have to bring the series to an abrupt conclusion or to come up with a new name and focus for it, and b) the notion about the gargoyles' origins was one of those things that I could guess that the rest of the staff would have immediately rejected (and I can't believe myself that any member of the Third Race could actually create living, breathing beings - the most that they would be able to manage would be "animated statues", the way that Oberon did in "The Gathering Part Two").
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2006 6:51:21 pm EDT from 4.245.17.146

I've never liked the, "well they should have just killed off Hudson because he is old" line; for one, he's already proven that just because he is old doesn't mean he is useless. (and, its too obvious.) Claw...maybe. the Cold duo seem the obvious choice, and some rumor I heard said that it was intended that they be left dead at the end of the war, but there was something about one of the project heads insisting they be resureccted.

Greg Weisman revealed Lexington's orientation back at the 2003 Gathering, which not many of us mark as recent. As for how that may or may not apply to TGS...you'll just have to wait and read.
Lynati
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2006 6:28:15 pm EDT from 70.249.45.163

I think in the final battle in the SUW some Manhattan characters could have been killed off. Claw and maybe a couple of the clones, how about Hudson. He's old and nearing the end of his days as a warrior. Although I really liked the fact the Coldstone and Coldfire were restored, killing them off would have been cool too.

ps. When you guys do the next season of TGS, do you plan to have Lexingtion gay? I ask because Greg has recently come out and say that Lexington is gay.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2006 4:56:16 pm EDT from 67.190.200.144

Casualties> I remember that running battle over the death list (my name for it) of the SUW. We knew the main cast was safe because everyone had a scene afterward, whether it was Demona saving Elisa or Elisa being saved. Broadway and Angela needing to start their family and Lex continuing his cybernetization. Then the question came to the secondary and recurring characters and it seemed everyone had someone the wanted to save and someone else who deserved the dirt nap. I recall Stephen fighting tooth and claw to save Coldstone and Coldfire.I don't know if it was Batya or someone else who wanted to save Claw and the other mutates. I know Sharon had her executioners.

I know it looks lame in retrospect. The main force hits NYC and the players come out with minor scratches, while everyone else faces heavy losses dealing with the second stringers. Its like Normandy being a breezy stroll in the park while the Dutch coastline meant to be the decoy becomes a bloodbath.

I can only offer by way of explanation that if the readers feel involved in the story imagine the writers and story people who create it. Everyone felt that there was more story in their pet character. What really burns is that so little of that story potential was ever put to use. After the protracted fights to save Coldstone and Coldfire from a battefield death, they get restored and sent packing to Avalon. Storywise the same as death. In the following season next to nothing came of all these characters 'saved' from death. No mutuates, no clones save Delilah, barely a blip on the halflings. It seems like a wasted non-blood letting.

Master Plan vs Other plans> I don't apologize for the detours taken from the Master Plan. Canon was an unmovable force, but the Master Plan were hints and guidelines more than any set of directions. Since i put some time in developing Lancelot and Duval's characters I can tell you I twisted my tail in knots trying to reconcile the Flower of Chivalry with the machievellian puppetmaster Head of the Illuminati. Finallly, I got a talking to by the character (it happens sometimes) Basically, people change over time. You aren't the same person you were ten years ago and ten years hence you'll be a different person. So give a person a millenia and a half and they might surprise you. I liked the dynamic of Lancelot/Duval and Arthur. There's a little more personal history than just king and knight. And that's why I defend the detours from the Master Plan, sometimes trying to figure it out leads to possibilities and plotlines otherwise ignored or never looked at.

Like Timedancer, I never heard the official reason for the Phoenix Gate being out of whack. The Avalon rule of where you need to be played a part. That much is clear in Out of Joint, but I assumed the rest was a mixture of Loki trying to escape and the fact that Brooklyn never learned the encantation. I always believed that was the secret in the second scroll in Out of Joint 2. Brooklyn never learned the spell and his latin isn't the best so when he does learn to spell his constant slips of the tongue send him to the wrong place. "I said Manhattan, not Mahatma!"
Taleweaver
Honor those the dragons heed in thought and favor word and deed
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2006 2:35:03 am EDT from 207.69.137.40

To be honest, I don't know who I would have killed off in the SUW, and I was on staff when it was being planned. I remember there were a few candidates thrown around.

I think Batya wanted to kill Dracon, but I said no. I had plans for him down the line, which... I never got to do. Aw well, it happens.

But, the Manhattan Clan came out of the Unseelie War with a broken arm and two new gargoyles. Not the way to end it, IMO.

The death of the Magus is how you do it. Sora, well... a blink and you'll miss it death, I don't think so.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2006 12:52:44 am EDT from 65.33.128.134

She was killed in the Second Unseelie War ("The Darkest Hour Part Two" - though be warned that in the actual episode it's a "blink-and-you-missed-it" moment).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2006 9:32:07 pm EDT from 4.245.19.138

Stupid question, but I'm having a trying day, so humor me a bit...

When did Sora die?

I could prolly go back and search and re-read..and im thinking of re-reading anyway cause it's been a while...but right now I'm torn between searching and dinner..(maybe searching FOR dinner :) )

Thanks!
Dezi
But why is all the rum gone?
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2006 9:19:24 pm EDT from 68.58.30.120

DPH - If you're referring to the "no casualties" in "Carbonek Part Three", then again, my concern wasn't based on soft-heartedness towards the London clan, but on a desire to keep the focus on Arthur and his closest friends - who, admittedly, with the exception of Griff, weren't especially close with the London clan. If I'd killed off a couple of London gargoyles in the battle, then I'd have been in danger of ending the story with a mourning London clan holding a Wind Ceremony for the slain gargoyles with Arthur, Merlin, and Mary watching from the sidelines, and the audience's attention drawn towards the gargoyles rather than towards Arthur's resolve to found New Camelot or Merlin's healing.

In a battle focused around the London clan (say, somebody attacking the estate), I would have been willing to have a couple of members die if the battle was to be a big occasion. But in a story where the big concerns were those of the human characters, gargoyle casualties were in danger of serving as a distraction.

As for other gargoyle clans being exposed, the one thing that worries me about that is that the whole "hated and feared by humanity" element, unless handled carefully, can get old pretty fast. (As a way of how not to handle it, just look at the Goliath Chronicles.) Plus, you also have to take constant care to keep the audience from winding up hating the humans (except for the handful who have befriended the gargoyles, such as Elisa) almost as much as Demona does, to the point where they'd want the gargoyles to either join with Demona and wipe out humanity, or just flee to Avalon where they'd be safe.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2006 6:52:36 pm EDT from 4.244.212.185

Adam - Um, Sora was really a nobody character in the show. Because of ASK GREG we know that she is Yama's mate, but until we see some stories developing her, she will remain a nobody, background character.

And developing a character after they died, not something I would do. I kinda like knowing and caring about the characters BEFORE they die. But, maybe that's just me.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2006 2:36:41 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

However, even though major characters haven't died in TGS, several have come close (like Elisa, Merlin, and Owen). Also, several minor gargoyle characters have died (like Sora, Lance, Drake, Aper, and a third of the Antartic clan). Lance's and Sora's deaths were emotional because we new Sora from canon and learned more about Lance after he died and he became a sympithetic character. I hope we learn more about the lesser known clans in future stories.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2006 2:26:26 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

GXB - <TGS tended to play it safe, wheras Greg Weisman wasn't afraid to take chances.> I have to agree.

Todd - I have a tendacy to say you played it too safe.

What are the opinions about the story "The Air We Breathe"? That was a violent story, but there was a point to it.

**Pendragon Spoilers/Complaints**

Way back during Gargoyles/Pendragon Season 2 "Night of the Wierd", a few gargoyles worked with the police. "Once & Future King" had gargoyles back in London. The London clan is playing the same hide & seek game the Manhattan clan was playing, except they don't have active police deliberating covering things up. At same point, the London clan is going to be exposed. I know this series is called Pendragon not Gargoyles UK, but an accidental exposure is in the works.

***End Pendragon Spoilers***

I prefer to think if tgs has guessed that Merlin was Oberon's son, that would not have negated an Unseelie Court, just changed its appearance. In such a universe, I imagine there would have been a secret cult of Maeve followers, seeking to release her. When Oberon made war against his mother, it doesn't mean everybody was on his side.

I'm fairly sure that some outside force (neither Xanatos nor Manhattan clan) will locate all remaining gargoyle clans around the world. I'm looking forward to learning who that group is.
dph of rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2006 9:45:16 am EDT from 162.40.59.147

I must confess that every time I hear the remark "Demona is her own worst enemy", I find myself wondering what Brooklyn or the Hunters (especially the Hunters) would say about that. :)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2006 6:50:18 am EDT from 4.244.212.155

Greg B: I do agree that peace is boring. Conflict does make for a better story. Perhaps what might have been more engaging for Demona (considering the addition of the Unseelies to the TGS Ficverse) would have been something similar to what would probably happen in 2198: A very unstable temporary cease-fire, formed simply because the Unseelies were the greater of two evils.
Harvester of Eyes
"According to the legends of a thousand worlds only a few of which are still habitable, the W'rkncacnter are those things that live in chaos, creating it around them... ...As time has gone by, their existence has become difficult to detect among the chaotic elements of the universe, hidden in stars, trapped in storms, forever looking along the event horizons of black holes. Setting one free in ordered space is difficult and insane." -Durandal
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2006 6:38:06 am EDT from 69.174.3.196

Speaking as someone who was on TGS at the time, I think restoring Coldstone and Coldfire to flesh and blood was cheap. Not something the original series would have ever done. I was against it then, and I am still against it now. I'm not saying they should have died, but I think they are more interesting the way they are now.

There were too problems with it.

1. It was said in Timedancer that Children of Oberon cannot create life with their magic, just as dragons cannot kill with their magic. But a Child of Oberon can kill with its magic, and a dragon can create life.

Titania should not have been able to do what she did. It was a massive contradiction.

2. And less nitpicky, but more important. The events of "The Darkest Hour" weren't just a battle. They were a war. And when Greg was asked why the Magus died, he said "Because war has to have cost, and that cost has to be painful, or else that's not real."

I agree with Greg completely. Death is a part of war. "Gargoyles" may have been a cartoon, but it was more honest than just about any other out there. It was a realistic fantasy story.

Jason Canmore gains enlightenment, but loses his ability to walk.

I'm proud of a lot of the work done on TGS, but I think in a lot of cases, TGS tended to play it safe, wheras Greg Weisman wasn't afraid to take chances.

No offense to anyone involved, but I still have issues with the Demona arc within the first two seasons of TGS. Never in a million years would she give up her war against humanity just because Angela waved a finger in her face and threatened to never speak to her again. Hell, if anything, Angela would be Demona's new excuse. "I must destroy humanity to protect my daughter. She may hate me now, but she'll thank me for it later."

Because, Demona is her own worst enemy. That is her tragedy.
Greg Bishansky
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2006 1:23:43 am EDT from 65.33.128.134

Wow, and he even took me seriously...

dph: You have got to lighten up, my friend. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes
"According to the legends of a thousand worlds only a few of which are still habitable, the W'rkncacnter are those things that live in chaos, creating it around them... ...As time has gone by, their existence has become difficult to detect among the chaotic elements of the universe, hidden in stars, trapped in storms, forever looking along the event horizons of black holes. Setting one free in ordered space is difficult and insane." -Durandal
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2006 5:23:02 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

I think one of the most emotion moments from TGS was when everyone thought that Coldstone and Coldfire were going to die.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2006 1:50:05 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

h.o.e. - <Have you tried the Elvish word for friend?> As one person pointed out to me, it's rather pointless for me to come up with passwords and user ids to try on that page. I've already tried changing the source code to look in a different spot for the user id and password, but my attempts at altering that bit of Perl to look elsewhere failed.
dph of rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2006 11:11:06 am EDT from 71.29.69.96

Re the "casualties of war" element: I was long afraid that somebody (or many people) would complain that we didn't have any of the London gargoyles or any other friends of Arthur's killed during the big battle outside Carbonek in the series finale of "Pendragon". (We had Avallach and Leonard both die - well, Leonard die and Avallach ascend with the Grail - but neither of them were involved in the fighting.) I'd decided against casualties for the battle because I wanted to keep the focus - especially at the end - on Arthur preparing to found New Camelot, and didn't want to have it compete with - say, a Wind Ceremony for one of the London gargoyles. (It strikes me that one of the keys to choosing whom to have die in a big battle is to pick somebody who's got an important role in the story involving the battle. Take "Avalon", for example; the Magus, who is the casualty of war in the story, is also a major figure throughout the whole three-parter - he brings Katharine and the eggs to Avalon, defeating the Weird Sisters in the process and starting the whole feud, and we get so much about his inner life in the story after that, his guilt over having cursed the gargoyles, his unrequited love over Princess Katharine, etc.) Fortunately, we didn't get any complaints (as far as I can tell).

The notion of London gargoyles that would resemble other animals besides lions, unicorns, and griffons got in before Greg Weisman said anything about it being just those three, so it wasn't a conscious defiance so much as an assumption that turned out to be false - but only after we'd already gotten it into print. Kind of like the bit about Merlin's father being Madoc rather than Oberon (and as a matter of fact, TGS would have been extremely different if we'd used the notion from Greg's Master Plan that Oberon was Merlin's father - as in, there most likely would not have been an Unseelie Court at all; the whole thing was the result of my wanting to do something with the underused concept from medieval Arthurian literature of Merlin being the son of the Devil - which I wouldn't have considered an option if it had been Oberon who was Merlin's father).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2006 7:02:16 pm EDT from 4.244.211.159

Adam: I don't know. I had a conversation once with someone about this. I think that the best way to really drive the reality of war home is for one to experience a personal loss. It didn't feel right for the Manhattan Clan to be the only clan of gargoyles that didn't experience that. And to be honest, the best candidates for casualties were Coldstone and Coldfire. I think heroes' deaths for them would have been pretty cool.

Todd: For the purposes of the TGS Ficverse, I thought Lancelot fit pretty well, due to his and Arthur's history. Was it ever revealed how Lancelot survived down through the centuries? Maybe it was and I just missed it. I know that in Greg's Master Plan, Percival was kept alive by the Grail.
Harvester of Eyes
"According to the legends of a thousand worlds only a few of which are still habitable, the W'rkncacnter are those things that live in chaos, creating it around them... ...As time has gone by, their existence has become difficult to detect among the chaotic elements of the universe, hidden in stars, trapped in storms, forever looking along the event horizons of black holes. Setting one free in ordered space is difficult and insane." -Durandal
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2006 5:57:17 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

You guys also did some other things that were not part of Greg's master plan that I really liked. One was restoring Coldstone and Coldsteel to Othello and Desdemona. I hope in the 4th season they permenenty join the Manhattan clan along with Boudicca. I also liked the fact that you went against the master plan and made the Londan clans apperances more than just lions, unicorns and griffons. I really like the diversity.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2006 1:24:54 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

I think that a big advantage that the comics will have over TGS is that periodically, we made a guess about the events in the Master Plan, based on what little we'd already learned from Greg at the time, and later on found out that not only was our guess different from what Greg had come up with, but also that some aspect of the answer that we'd come up with in our guess led to various complications that Greg's answer didn't have.

Two examples:

1. When we started on "Timedancer", we assumed that the reason why Brooklyn couldn't immediately use the Phoenix Gate to get himself home, why it took him forty years instead, was because the Gate had gotten broken after what Goliath had done to it in "Future Tense" and that the Latin incantation could no longer control it. But this led to such complications as how to keep the Gate from activating when Brooklyn was going to stay in one place for several episodes (such as future New York). And then it turned out that in Greg's plan, Brooklyn would never actually get the Phoenix Gate - it would always disappear before he could close his hands around it until the end of his adventures.

2. We also mistakenly guessed that Mr. Duval's Arthurian Age identity was Lancelot (based on the fact that somebody on the staff had the half-memory - a false memory, as it turned out - that Greg had said that Duval was Lancelot), but we now know that Greg's plan was for Duval to be Percival. Greg's plan fitted Duval's name far better (Lancelot's modern-day alias would more likely have been Mr. Dulac), and also provided an explanation for how Duval had survived into modern times (while we had our work cut out for us just figuring out an explanation for how Lancelot had survived into modern times).

There are no doubt other examples out there, but these are the two that I can immediately think of.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2006 7:02:39 pm EDT from 4.245.18.67

dph_of_rules: Have you tried the Elvish word for friend?
Harvester of Eyes
"According to the legends of a thousand worlds only a few of which are still habitable, the W'rkncacnter are those things that live in chaos, creating it around them... ...As time has gone by, their existence has become difficult to detect among the chaotic elements of the universe, hidden in stars, trapped in storms, forever looking along the event horizons of black holes. Setting one free in ordered space is difficult and insane." -Durandal
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2006 5:26:23 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

I found this page called "TGS Staff Utilities" (link left out on purpose - if you know the link, don't share it) and I'm curious if anybody hear knows the user id and password for that page. If you do know the user id and password, please email me. If you don't know my email address and know the user id and password for that page, let me know by posting. Please don't post that user id and password.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2006 4:46:48 pm EDT from 161.31.67.131

Adam: As well-conceived and executed as I think the TGS ficverse is, I'd rather not try to compare it to the new canon material we're going to get. In fact, I'm looking forward to seeing one or two things in the comic being handled exactly according to Greg's Master Plan.
Harvester of Eyes
"According to the legends of a thousand worlds only a few of which are still habitable, the W'rkncacnter are those things that live in chaos, creating it around them... ...As time has gone by, their existence has become difficult to detect among the chaotic elements of the universe, hidden in stars, trapped in storms, forever looking along the event horizons of black holes. Setting one free in ordered space is difficult and insane." -Durandal
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2006 7:03:38 am EDT from 69.174.3.196

***** TGS CR INFORMATION UPDATE *****


CR ARCHIVE:

The archive has been updated to include the file of July 10, 2006 through July 30, 2006.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/


CR TIMELINE:

Per DPH's request, I have included a notice of the statistics he posted in the forum regarding artists of previously published TGS illustrations.

>> http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/cr/archive/timeline.php


***** END UPDATE *****
Lady Mystic
Admin of TGS CR Information
posted @ Sat, Aug 5, 2006 12:27:55 am EDT from 67.38.28.236

Sorry to be such a nut about it, but I am ansy with anticipation for the new stories. And the only other times I get ansy to read something is when the next Star Wars book come out.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2006 4:00:36 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Well, we can all agree that Goliath Chronicles were horrible.

But as a former TGS staff member, I must also say that I appreciate the sentiment, even if there is no way to tell. Season four was in development when I left TGS, and I think you're in for a real treat. There is a lot of great stuff planned, and I say this despite some personal differences I may have with anyone.


But, I am also sure that Greg has a lot of great stuff planned for the comic, in fact, I know he does. So, that'll be a real treat also.

Personally, I don't think TGS and Greg are or should be in competition with each other. But, it's also impossible to forge opinions on work that has yet to be released.

Keep reading, both TGS and the comic. I know I will.
Greg Bishansky
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2006 2:27:28 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Purhaps you are right. But I know two things. I love the stories that feature the Caledonian clan and these stories are far supperior to the horrible Goliath Chronicals.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2006 2:05:34 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Adam: ...
The sentiment is nice, but I doubt you'd find any staff, old or new, who would agree with you. If you compare tgs to canon gargs, tgs comes up lacking; as good as we hope the future stories to be, I rather doubt they will in any way outshine the work in the new comic.

And yeah, one wonders how you are comparing one unpublished material with another unpublished material. Neither "exist" yet; perhaps you ought to put off developing an opinion until they do. It's not doing TGS any favors to give it credit it has not earned.

But we're glad that you care enough to stick around and see what we do come up with. : )
Lynati
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2006 1:55:07 pm EDT from 70.249.45.163

I am being serious. I loved the new clans that were introduced (especially the Caledonian clan). I like that they went outside of the box when creating more members of the London clan. I loved the hole saga with the Unseelie court and the return of Thailog. And some of the Gargoyle cartoons I didn't care much for. Like when Goliath went back to Wyvern.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2006 1:38:16 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Adam> <<I believe many of your stories have been equal and supperior to anything Mr. Weisman will come out with in the comics.>>

Can I borrow your crystal ball some time? I would love to know what the winning numbers for next wee's lotto are.
Greg Bishansky
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2006 1:19:18 pm EDT from 65.33.128.134

Thanks. Just asking because I really enjoy this web site. I hope you guys get everything sorted out proporly and continue to go a great job. I also hope that the new Gargoyle comics that are coming out does not deture you from writing new stories because I believe many of your stories have been equal and supperior to anything Mr. Weisman will come out with in the comics.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2006 12:55:41 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Adam: If you had read the FAQ completely, you would know that it does NOT say there would be new stories by summer 2005. It says we wanted Gar 4 out by then, but could not ensure that it would be and was preceded by the lines, "we can’t gauge when the next season will be ready for posting."

Sadly, that line still stands. We don't know when it will be ready. If you want to know the reasons why that is, read the rest of the FAQ.

Right now we're sorting out the website overhaul, and its taking away time from working on the series while we talk it out.
Lynati
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2006 8:32:42 am EDT from 70.249.45.163

Vash - Not that I'm complaining, do you have any idea when we might see the gnc back online again?
dph of rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2006 7:55:39 am EDT from 71.30.135.236

Lurking Fish: June 11th?! That's my _birthday_! So you're a year early, but that's funny. I think you have a new fan in me. :-P
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2006 4:50:49 pm EDT from 69.230.70.153

Does anyone with TGS have any idea when new stories will appear. I am asking because in the FAQ section it said that there will be new stories in the summer of 2005. Just curious because now it is the summer of 2006. thanks
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2006 1:29:35 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

So... not really TGS information, but TGS-related in any case.

Gunjack and I have started a small webcomic based kinda sorta vaguely on some of the concepts we had rattling around from Bad Guys. For the most part, it's my project - with the aim of improving my drawing skills by forcing me to practice.

The main character of the comic is Clarice, who was/is one of the main antagonists for Bad Guys. It takes place in Germany in the 1980's, when Clarice is 16.

Please feel free to check it out.

There are only 2 pages so far, but any comments/critiques, either on the comic itself or the website presentation would be greatly appreciated!

I am hoping for twice weekly updates, though I would like to have 3 updates per week if I can pull it off.

Thanks :)
Lurking Fish
No, I'm not drunk and I'm not sad - there's nothing inside that I want back...
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2006 4:01:58 am EDT from 205.250.215.79

DIEZ! just in time!
Dezi
But why is all the rum gone?
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 10:37:43 pm EDT from 68.58.30.120

Ninth(9)!

The sad fact is that Final Fantasy 6 hundred 76 could happen. Never really like those tyopes of games.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 4:11:31 pm EDT from 69.54.209.65

Eighth! Ah-hah, two posts closer to one! Or five! I'm easy to please. :-P

Heh, Final Fantasy Six-Hundred-Seventy-Six . . . It could happen. :-P
Guardian - [Guardian_R105@hotmail.com]
Pardons, I'm still acting like a con-virgin
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 3:24:12 pm EDT from 69.230.71.46

Holy number of perfection, Batman!
Spen
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 1:28:32 pm EDT from 216.248.119.208

Numba 6 (urp) Numba 6 (urp) Numba 6...

<From the bsharps simpsons episode>
silvadel
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 12:58:13 pm EDT from 24.149.178.180

5th
Mecord
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 12:44:32 pm EDT from 65.100.216.42

4th! I didn't expect the cr wipe today.
dph of rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 11:52:57 am EDT from 71.30.135.236

Good! I claim third place for all the dragons out there.
Taleweaver
Honor those the dragons heed in thought and favor word and deed
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 9:44:46 am EDT from 207.69.139.6

I claim to be number two.
Starsinger
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 7:29:14 am EDT from 209.240.206.201

Sorry... posted with wrong pic. (I'm still not used to cookies saving my settings. :/)
Lady Mystic
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 5:00:58 am EDT from 67.38.28.236

First???

(CR Archive update forthcoming.)
Lady Mystic
Admin of TGS CR Information
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2006 5:00:00 am EDT from 67.38.28.236